Re: [Biofuel] Hydrogen fuel?
Thankyou Zeke, Robert and Doug, that couldn't be more clear. Sure takes a weight off my mind to know that the fundamental physical constants didn't suddenly change last week after all. As for the offers, I'm not really interested, I'd rather go on happily ignoring it. Anyway, we don't have the old TownAce anymore. We're a bit rough on cars, and it was 20 years old already, and giving more and more trouble. Actually it was more or less falling apart. It wasn't going to make it through the next sha-ken road test without having a lot of money chucked at it, more than it was worth, so we scrapped it. The situation changed too, we didn't need two vehicles anymore. So now we just have the little K-truck, nice. Probably the TownAce got picked up by a dealer and refurbished for export, no sha-ken for export so it's worth it. Thanks again - all best Keith ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] Hydrogen fuel?
People keep talking about and writing about and asking me about and offering me H2 generators for gasoline engines, and making wondrous claims for their effectiveness, eg: On my 92 Ford F-150 with the 5.0 ( 302 CU ) engine, the truck at it's best mileage without the H2 generator was 17.9 mpg. with the 1st H2gen it went to 22.5 miles and modifying it I was getting 25 mpg. I made it from scrounged up stuff about the house, copper tubing, aluminium strips, house wiring, and a 1/2 gallon large mouth jar. I mounted it by the battery and ran a hose from the fitting to the air intake at the injector body. I had to change to a heavy duty marine battery, the type that is used for trolling motors. The truck needed a new battery anyhow. My neighbour built a larger unit and ran his 64 Triumph Spitfire off pure H2, He had to have 2 batteries and a more powerful alternator. Are they deluded? Or does strapping a couple of magnets to the fuel line also turn out to work? All best Keith ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Hydrogen fuel?
I've never tried it, but the laws of physics don't give much room for improvement. If you take mechanical energy from the engine, turn it to electricity via the alternator, electrolyze water to hydrogen, then burn the hydrogen you're never going to get out as much as you put in, unless every step is 100% efficient -- which none of them are. The possibility is that low levels of hydrogen enrichment improve the combustion efficiency of the engine running on gasoline or diesel, and thus get more mpg that way, which I can see happening, but on a modern computer controlled engine, the emissions are really low compared to older carbureted engines, which implies that there's not alot of advantage to be gained in combustion efficiency. Perhaps the hydrogen makes it burn closer to the ideal text book cycle instead of the real world cycle... anyway... from a physics standpoint, I can see it giving a slight efficiency boost, especially for older engines, but not massive, and the whole pure H2 idea doesn't seem to be possible from the second law of thermodynamics. The whole concept of making them out of scrap parts around the house is also rather odd if it was legitimate, don't you think that someone would be selling complete units instead of selling instructions... maybe the only money is to be made in selling instructions... kind of like the magnetic motors that turn forever and are a limitless power source... but you can only buy instructions, not an actual motor. Makes it seem more like a pyramid scheme instead of a legitimate invention. On the other hand, you get all kinds of people trying to sell copies of JTF, and poorly made expensive biodiesel reactors, so from an outsider's perspective, biodiesel doesn't always look so legitimate either. I guess the only way to tell for sure is to test one. Does someone want to send you one built for the van? Z On Sat, Jun 5, 2010 at 12:41 AM, Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED]wrote: People keep talking about and writing about and asking me about and offering me H2 generators for gasoline engines, and making wondrous claims for their effectiveness, eg: On my 92 Ford F-150 with the 5.0 ( 302 CU ) engine, the truck at it's best mileage without the H2 generator was 17.9 mpg. with the 1st H2gen it went to 22.5 miles and modifying it I was getting 25 mpg. I made it from scrounged up stuff about the house, copper tubing, aluminium strips, house wiring, and a 1/2 gallon large mouth jar. I mounted it by the battery and ran a hose from the fitting to the air intake at the injector body. I had to change to a heavy duty marine battery, the type that is used for trolling motors. The truck needed a new battery anyhow. My neighbour built a larger unit and ran his 64 Triumph Spitfire off pure H2, He had to have 2 batteries and a more powerful alternator. Are they deluded? Or does strapping a couple of magnets to the fuel line also turn out to work? All best Keith ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100605/de398a5e/attachment.html ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Hydrogen fuel?
Keith Addison wrote: People keep talking about and writing about and asking me about and offering me H2 generators for gasoline engines, and making wondrous claims for their effectiveness, eg: On my 92 Ford F-150 with the 5.0 ( 302 CU ) engine, the truck at it's best mileage without the H2 generator was 17.9 mpg. with the 1st H2gen it went to 22.5 miles and modifying it I was getting 25 mpg. While this sounds like a reasonable improvement, I have doubts about H2 boost working to that degree on a computer-controlled, fuel-injected engine. (My Ranger is a 1993, and I installed a custom-built computer that replaced the factory one when I put the supercharger on. The process of learning how to tune the engine gave me DEEP respect for the Ford engineers!) Zeke mentioned that there isn't a lot of room for improvement in terms of unburned fuel in a modern engine, and he's got a good point. Sir Harry Ricardo experimented with this sort of thing long ago and DID improve the combustion characteristics of engines using H2 boost, but he was using carbureted engines that lacked the O2 feedback mechanism that's characteristic of modern fuel management systems. The people who are touting this sort of thing are certainly standing on the shoulders of a giant (Sir Ricardo was a very intelligent man!), but I'm confident most of them lack his engineering credentials and the rigor of his measurement methods. Are they deluded? Or does strapping a couple of magnets to the fuel line also turn out to work? Think of the engine fuel like a big block of wood. It will certainly burn, but it will ignite better if you douse it in gasoline first. Hydrogen has extremely low flammability limits and ignites easily. The idea behind H2 boost is that it will ignite the air / fuel charge faster. Since 90% of engine power is produced in the first third of engine stroke (I may be incorrect about the percentage, but it is certainly the majority), H2 boost is theorized to move more of the combustion energy into the first third of the engine stroke. Does that work? Perhaps, but I'm skeptical. The fuel pressure in my truck's injection system is high enough that whatever gasoline is injected should be well atomized when it enters the intake manifold. Combustion is a very dynamic process, yet even with the onboard computer monitoring air / fuel ratio and O2 in the exhaust several times per second, a catalytic converter is still necessary to clean up the exhaust. Here's why: Let's pretend I'm sitting at a light in my truck, waiting for it to change. The injection pulses at that point are very brief--almost to the extent that the injectors themselves barely open fully. In order to keep the engine idling, the onboard computer has been programmed to run it slightly rich (13.8 - 14: 1 air to fuel) so that it won't stall. Because there is no load on the engine, a very small portion of the fuel injected into the manifold will condense on the metal surfaces while it waits for the intake valve to open. If the percentage of fuel to air exceeds what is programmed, the feedback loop I've programmed in to the computer will shorten the injection pulses. This happens constantly, but there is still a tiny portion of unburned fuel that still has to be cleaned up when it leaves the engine. Now, when I crack open the throttle to move, there's an acceleration enrichment algorithm that kicks in according to manifold vacuum and throttle position. In order to maximize power, it runs the engine a wee bit rich. Some of that fuel will escape without being burned, and it's oxidized in the catalytic converter. If I move into boost because I'm carrying a load or climbing a hill, the fuel map is programmed to sustain a 12.5 - 13:1 air / fuel ratio so that I won't burn a valve under high load from a lean condition. (My exhaust header gets red hot after being under boost for a few minutes!) Of course, not all of that fuel is going to burn, and that's why I've got to have a catalytic converter. When I start coasting downhill and there is no load on the engine, the injectors shut off completely as long as the rpms remain about 1 200 or so. Under those circumstances, I'm not burning any fuel at all! So the idea of H2 boost seems like it might address those situations (like idle and acceleration) where an excess of fuel exists in the system. Perhaps it does. But the vast majority of my driving occurs at cruise, where the onboard computer does an excellent job of keeping the air / fuel ratio stoichometric. The fact that even with a supercharger installed and well over 230 000 km on the engine, it still easily passes the semi-annual emissions test here in BC, testifies that the system works well. It MIGHT improve under certain conditions with H2 boost, but the constant drag induced by load on the alternator to drive an onboard
Re: [Biofuel] Hydrogen fuel?
In the 1920s, Sir Harry Ricardo and his firm built an engine for the airship R-100 which ran on kerosene plus the hydrogen required to provide the lift for the kerosene burned (instead of valving off the hydrogen as other airships did). The engine ran very lean and consumed 0.30 pound per horsepower-hour of kerosene, so the heat energy in all the fuel burned was equivalent to kerosene at about 0.37 lb/hp/hr. This was at a compression ratio of 6:1. At the time, open chamber diesels got about the same fuel consumption but needed a compression ratio of 14:1 to do it (from my memory of the Guiberson radial and the Daimler-Benz airship engine as described in the 1944 edition of Paul Wilkinson's Aircraft Engines of the World). Supposedly for safety's sake the Air Ministry wanted duplicated drives for all the accessories (fuel pump, water pump etc.) on an engine of which I think there were 6 on the airship; engines which were not needed to stay up, on a craft which could be slowed or stopped in the air to make repairs if necessary. Due to the extra development time needed for this complication, the engines were not ready to fly when the airship was, and the R-100 crossed the Atlantic to Canada and returned to Britain in 1930 with Rolls-Royce Condor gasoline-fueled aircraft engines. The Ricardo engine *had* to run very lean to avoid detonation. I expect that modern experimenters would have the same problem, and might learn about it the hard way. When the airship program was shut down after the crash of the competing R-101 in France on its first long trip, the Ricardo technology was sold off. I haven't heard of it being used. All this is described in Ricardo's memoirs Memories and Machines (London: Constable, 1968); also in The Ricardo Story: the Autobiography of Sir Harry Ricardo, Pioneer of Engine Design by Harry Ralph Ricardo (Warrendale, PA: Society of Automotive Engineers, 1992) which is basically Memories and Machines expanded, not very usefully. Nevil Shute Norway's memoirs Slide Rule (London: Heinemann, 1954; and other publishers later) describe the R-100 program and the transatlantic trip. Doug Woodard St. Catharines, Ontario, Canada Keith Addison wrote: People keep talking about and writing about and asking me about and offering me H2 generators for gasoline engines, and making wondrous claims for their effectiveness, eg: On my 92 Ford F-150 with the 5.0 ( 302 CU ) engine, the truck at it's best mileage without the H2 generator was 17.9 mpg. with the 1st H2gen it went to 22.5 miles and modifying it I was getting 25 mpg. I made it from scrounged up stuff about the house, copper tubing, aluminium strips, house wiring, and a 1/2 gallon large mouth jar. I mounted it by the battery and ran a hose from the fitting to the air intake at the injector body. I had to change to a heavy duty marine battery, the type that is used for trolling motors. The truck needed a new battery anyhow. My neighbour built a larger unit and ran his 64 Triumph Spitfire off pure H2, He had to have 2 batteries and a more powerful alternator. Are they deluded? Or does strapping a couple of magnets to the fuel line also turn out to work? All best Keith ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Hydrogen Car Sighting
Maybe just a research vehicle heading to some testing place? Alan Petrillo wrote: robert and benita wrote: Alan Petrillo wrote: I saw a hydrogen fuel cell powered Ford Focus in traffic this afternoon. It was on I-275 North going across the Howard Frankland bridge going toward Tampa, Florida. On the back of a flatbed truck. . . . because it didn't have the range to get anywhere on its own? . . . because it couldn't find fuel? : - ) All of the above? AP ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Hydrogen Car Sighting
John Mullan wrote: Maybe just a research vehicle heading to some testing place? That possibility does exist. There are several vehicle manufacturers that test their vehicles in Florida, so maybe Ford is one of them. AP Alan Petrillo wrote: robert and benita wrote: Alan Petrillo wrote: I saw a hydrogen fuel cell powered Ford Focus in traffic this afternoon. It was on I-275 North going across the Howard Frankland bridge going toward Tampa, Florida. On the back of a flatbed truck. . . . because it didn't have the range to get anywhere on its own? . . . because it couldn't find fuel? : - ) All of the above? ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Hydrogen Car Sighting
I am not that excited about hydrogen fuel cells. Yes it will be better for the environment, but it is a super inefficient way to fuel a car. Not to mention it is the same type of setup; you buy your overpriced car, you now only have one choice on where to get fuel, you pay for expensive maintenance on an inefficient engine with a zillion moving parts. The better answer to this problem that wouldn't involve an IV like hook up to fuel companies is ELECTRICITY. It can be produced tons of different ways, the car has 7 or less moving parts. No maintenance and no IV to the fuel companies. James Alan Petrillo [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: John Mullan wrote: Maybe just a research vehicle heading to some testing place? That possibility does exist. There are several vehicle manufacturers that test their vehicles in Florida, so maybe Ford is one of them. AP Alan Petrillo wrote: robert and benita wrote: Alan Petrillo wrote: I saw a hydrogen fuel cell powered Ford Focus in traffic this afternoon. It was on I-275 North going across the Howard Frankland bridge going toward Tampa, Florida. On the back of a flatbed truck. . . . because it didn't have the range to get anywhere on its own? . . . because it couldn't find fuel? : - ) All of the above? ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ - Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20080201/ead136c5/attachment.html ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Hydrogen Car Sighting
James McCain Jr wrote: I am not that excited about hydrogen fuel cells. Yes it will be better for the environment, but it is a super inefficient way to fuel a car. Not to mention it is the same type of setup; you buy your overpriced car, you now only have one choice on where to get fuel, you pay for expensive maintenance on an inefficient engine with a zillion moving parts. True. There isn't going to be a way to get the cost down until someone finds a way to build fuel cells without platinum. With platinum at $1760/oz. it's no wonder that fuel cell vehicles are still in the $100k+ range for a cheap one. The better answer to this problem that wouldn't involve an IV like hook up to fuel companies is ELECTRICITY. It can be produced tons of different ways, the car has 7 or less moving parts. No maintenance and no IV to the fuel companies. Maybe. It all depends on how the electricity is generated. If you charge off of the grid then since most of the electricity in the US is made by burning coal then you are effectively driving a coal powered car. Even so, in terms of dollars per mile BEV's are hard to beat. AP ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] Hydrogen Car Sighting
I saw a hydrogen fuel cell powered Ford Focus in traffic this afternoon. It was on I-275 North going across the Howard Frankland bridge going toward Tampa, Florida. On the back of a flatbed truck. :-D AP ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Hydrogen Car Sighting
Alan Petrillo wrote: I saw a hydrogen fuel cell powered Ford Focus in traffic this afternoon. It was on I-275 North going across the Howard Frankland bridge going toward Tampa, Florida. On the back of a flatbed truck. . . . because it didn't have the range to get anywhere on its own? . . . because it couldn't find fuel? : - ) robert luis rabello (former hydrogen enthusiast) The Edge of Justice The Long Journey New Adventure for Your Mind http://www.newadventure.ca Ranger Supercharger Project Page http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Hydrogen Car Sighting
robert and benita wrote: Alan Petrillo wrote: I saw a hydrogen fuel cell powered Ford Focus in traffic this afternoon. It was on I-275 North going across the Howard Frankland bridge going toward Tampa, Florida. On the back of a flatbed truck. . . . because it didn't have the range to get anywhere on its own? . . . because it couldn't find fuel? : - ) All of the above? AP ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] hydrogen fuel balls from a gas pump?
Uh huh and what happens when you breathe them? Joe Kirk McLoren wrote: [0]navalynt writes New Scientist reports that the Department of Energy has filed a patent for [1]hydrogen fuel balls. From the article 'The proposed glass microspheres would each be a few millionths of a metre (microns) wide with a hollow center containing specks of palladium. The walls of each sphere would also have pores just a few ten-billionths of a metre in diameter.' They are supposedly safe and small enough to be pumped into a fuel tank in the same manner as gasoline. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] hydrogen fuel balls from a gas pump?
I guess we will all just have a BALL, LOL. OK, I guess it's not really funny after all. GOOD Question I just wrote a published paper late last year on the hazards of NanoTech particles on just this sort of item. Mike McGinness Joe Street wrote: Uh huh and what happens when you breathe them? Joe Kirk McLoren wrote: [0]navalynt writes New Scientist reports that the Department of Energy has filed a patent for [1]hydrogen fuel balls. From the article 'The proposed glass microspheres would each be a few millionths of a metre (microns) wide with a hollow center containing specks of palladium. The walls of each sphere would also have pores just a few ten-billionths of a metre in diameter.' They are supposedly safe and small enough to be pumped into a fuel tank in the same manner as gasoline. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] hydrogen fuel balls from a gas pump?
Hi Mike; You and I have something in common then. The university I work for has just launched an undergraduate program called nanotechnology engineering. Quite the laugh since the engineers are waay behind the scientists in nanotech, but it was part of an initiative to get status and therefore money, being the first university in the world to launch such a program. We don't even have a grad program yet, but I digress.. You know about the risks of playing with particles that are able to easily go inside cell walls then. I personally feel we should have a moratorium on this technology for a while until we know more but then I feel that way about genetic research too, and a lot of stuff actually. But the forces of the capitalist charade will see to it that we discover our mistakes when they are in our faces rather than beforehand sigh I had some glass microspheres about a decade ago and there were warnings all over it about inhalation risks, and these were not even hollow with palladium inside just solid glass. Joe Mike McGinness wrote: I guess we will all just have a BALL, LOL. OK, I guess it's not really funny after all. GOOD Question I just wrote a published paper late last year on the hazards of NanoTech particles on just this sort of item. Mike McGinness Joe Street wrote: Uh huh and what happens when you breathe them? Joe Kirk McLoren wrote: [0]navalynt writes New Scientist reports that the Department of Energy has filed a patent for [1]hydrogen fuel balls. From the article 'The proposed glass microspheres would each be a few millionths of a metre (microns) wide with a hollow center containing specks of palladium. The walls of each sphere would also have pores just a few ten-billionths of a metre in diameter.' They are supposedly safe and small enough to be pumped into a fuel tank in the same manner as gasoline. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] hydrogen fuel balls from a gas pump?
goodness, gracious great balls o' fire... Would a moratorium on nanotechnology involve glass beads with diameters of a few microns. this really is large compared to nanoscale Joe Street wrote: Hi Mike; You and I have something in common then. The university I work for has just launched an undergraduate program called nanotechnology engineering. Quite the laugh since the engineers are waay behind the scientists in nanotech, but it was part of an initiative to get status and therefore money, being the first university in the world to launch such a program. We don't even have a grad program yet, but I digress.. You know about the risks of playing with particles that are able to easily go inside cell walls then. I personally feel we should have a moratorium on this technology for a while until we know more but then I feel that way about genetic research too, and a lot of stuff actually. But the forces of the capitalist charade will see to it that we discover our mistakes when they are in our faces rather than beforehand sigh I had some glass microspheres about a decade ago and there were warnings all over it about inhalation risks, and these were not even hollow with palladium inside just solid glass. Joe Mike McGinness wrote: I guess we will all just have a BALL, LOL. OK, I guess it's not really funny after all. GOOD Question I just wrote a published paper late last year on the hazards of NanoTech particles on just this sort of item. Mike McGinness Joe Street wrote: Uh huh and what happens when you breathe them? Joe Kirk McLoren wrote: [0]navalynt writes New Scientist reports that the Department of Energy has filed a patent for [1]hydrogen fuel balls. From the article 'The proposed glass microspheres would each be a few millionths of a metre (microns) wide with a hollow center containing specks of palladium. The walls of each sphere would also have pores just a few ten-billionths of a metre in diameter.' They are supposedly safe and small enough to be pumped into a fuel tank in the same manner as gasoline. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- Bob Allen http://ozarker.org/bob Science is what we have learned about how to keep from fooling ourselves - Richard Feynman ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] hydrogen fuel balls from a gas pump?
No and now that I read my post back I realise how that inference could come out of it. My comments were in regard to nanoscale particles which can pass through cell membranes. The micron sized particles are a respiratory hazard just as asbesdos or other fine particles can be. I guess I combined both ideas in one thread since Mike commented on his paper about nanoscale particles. Nanoscale particles could be a hazard to any cell they come in contact with skin, plant, bacteria, or otherwise. Just check into depleted uranium and it's oxides to get a glimpse into the issue. A prof here got into a lot of hot water with the US authorities over his research into it a few years ago. Many life processes are colloidal and we are entering into an era where the insides of cells of living tissues will be exposed to things that are unprecedented in evolutionary history. A great time to let things be guided by market forces eh? Sorry for the confusion. Joe bob allen wrote: goodness, gracious great balls o' fire... Would a moratorium on nanotechnology involve glass beads with diameters of a few microns. this really is large compared to nanoscale Joe Street wrote: Hi Mike; You and I have something in common then. The university I work for has just launched an undergraduate program called nanotechnology engineering. Quite the laugh since the engineers are waay behind the scientists in nanotech, but it was part of an initiative to get status and therefore money, being the first university in the world to launch such a program. We don't even have a grad program yet, but I digress.. You know about the risks of playing with particles that are able to easily go inside cell walls then. I personally feel we should have a moratorium on this technology for a while until we know more but then I feel that way about genetic research too, and a lot of stuff actually. But the forces of the capitalist charade will see to it that we discover our mistakes when they are in our faces rather than beforehand sigh I had some glass microspheres about a decade ago and there were warnings all over it about inhalation risks, and these were not even hollow with palladium inside just solid glass. Joe Mike McGinness wrote: I guess we will all just have a BALL, LOL. OK, I guess it's not really funny after all. GOOD Question I just wrote a published paper late last year on the hazards of NanoTech particles on just this sort of item. Mike McGinness Joe Street wrote: Uh huh and what happens when you breathe them? Joe Kirk McLoren wrote: [0]navalynt writes New Scientist reports that the Department of Energy has filed a patent for [1]hydrogen fuel balls. From the article 'The proposed glass microspheres would each be a few millionths of a metre (microns) wide with a hollow center containing specks of palladium. The walls of each sphere would also have pores just a few ten-billionths of a metre in diameter.' They are supposedly safe and small enough to be pumped into a fuel tank in the same manner as gasoline. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] hydrogen fuel balls from a gas pump?
| Hydrogen Fuel Balls from a Gas Pump? || from the quite-a-racket dept. || posted by ScuttleMonkey on Monday May 22, @22:29 (Power) || http://hardware.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=06/05/22/2158216 |++[0]navalynt writes "New Scientist reports that the Department of Energyhas filed a patent for [1]hydrogen fuel balls. From the article 'Theproposed glass microspheres would each be a few millionths of a metre(microns) wide with a hollow center containing specks of palladium. Thewalls of each sphere would also have pores just a few ten-billionths of ametre in diameter.' They are supposedly safe and small enough to bepumped into a fuel tank in the same manner as gasoline."Discuss this story at: http://hardware.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=06/05/22/2158216Links: 0. mailto:MailScanner has detected a possible fraud attempt from "us.f303.mail.yahoo.com" claiming to be MailScanner has detected a possible fraud attempt from "us.f303.mail.yahoo.com" claiming to be [EMAIL PROTECTED] 1. http://www.newscientist.com/blog/invention/ Blab-away for as little as 1¢/min. Make PC-to-Phone Calls using Yahoo! Messenger with Voice.___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] hydrogen and biodiesel
I was reading a research paper that indicated that loading vegetable oil with Hydrogen would have much the same effect as using an acid for transesterfication. If this is the case, would it be more cost effective to use Hydrogen? It seems steps could be eliminated or made simpler. Does anyone have experience or information relating to this? ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] hydrogen and biodiesel
Howdy Randall. This sounds interesting, do you have a reference? My guess would be that the hydrogen just dissolves in the oil, the result of which is a mixture with a lower viscosity and higher heat of combustion. I can't imagine a chemical reaction, unless one does metal catalyzed hydrogenation which would turn the stuff into saturated fat. Randall Phelps wrote: I was reading a research paper that indicated that loading vegetable oil with Hydrogen would have much the same effect as using an acid for transesterfication. If this is the case, would it be more cost effective to use Hydrogen? It seems steps could be eliminated or made simpler. Does anyone have experience or information relating to this? ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- Bob Allen http://ozarker.org/bob Science is what we have learned about how to keep from fooling ourselves — Richard Feynman ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] hydrogen generator
As I have been building my biodiesel plans, other interesting ideas and plans are popping up. The most recent is the opportunity to acquire at a fraction of it's "worth" a hydrogen generating system. I wuill be going to the archives as soon as I get this sent, but am wondering what can be said about the usefullness of a hydrogen generator. I haven't seen it as yet, but it was suggested to me because "it's got two big tanks and all the plumbing and pumps you could ever need". It was designed as an add-on to a university hospital's co-generation plant and never installed. I am in California. Thanks for any links or help in advance. Greg Kelly___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] hydrogen generator
greg Kelly wrote: As I have been building my biodiesel plans, other interesting ideas and plans are popping up. The most recent is the opportunity to acquire at a fraction of it's worth a hydrogen generating system. It's doubtful that a hydrogen generating system is worth ANYTHING, unless you have a use for hydrogen. There's a man in California named Walt Pyle who wrote a few hydrogen articles for Home Power magazine several years ago. He built his own system and uses it for welding. Electricity in California is too expensive to waste on hydrogen. Up here in BC, however, where premium gasoline is now running $1.15 per liter, it would be cheaper for me to electrolyze water and burn hydrogen in my truck than gasoline. Go figure! robert luis rabello The Edge of Justice Adventure for Your Mind http://www.newadventure.ca Ranger Supercharger Project Page http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] hydrogen
Has anyone used hydrogen generators in there cars. They are sabose to reduce Emissions Including Nox. john ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] hydrogen vehicles, WAS freiburg solar house
Hakan wrote: snip I think that hydrogen for transport is a dead duck and a very bad idea, when resources are needed and should be spent on more viable solutions. China is making a big push for hydrogen vehicles. A relative of a Chinese friend of mine is in charge of preparing for all China's vehicles to run on hydrogen, starting with government-owned fleets. If they can do it, why can't we? ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] hydrogen vehicles, WAS freiburg solar house
I agree that from a pollution issue, hydrogen fuel cell vehicals are much better than biodiesel, but for now (and probably for the next 15 years at least), biodiesel makes much more sense -- mainly because we could fully transition in probably 5 years if we really tried. By then, the hydrogen technology as developed for stationary applications may have solved many of the problems that vehicles also have -- longevity, freezing, etc. Although, if anyone can mass produce fuel cells, it's probably the Chinese. On 9/27/05, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hakan wrote: snip I think that hydrogen for transport is a dead duck and a very bad idea, when resources are needed and should be spent on more viable solutions. China is making a big push for hydrogen vehicles. A relative of a Chinese friend of mine is in charge of preparing for all China's vehicles to run on hydrogen, starting with government-owned fleets. If they can do it, why can't we? ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] hydrogen tablet
More information about this 'magic pill': http://www.amminex.com/index.htm -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Alt.EnergyNetwork Sent: den 9 september 2005 22:18 To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: [Biofuel] hydrogen tablet Scientists at the Technical University of Denmark have invented a technology which may be an important step towards the hydrogen economy: a hydrogen tablet that effectively stores hydrogen in an inexpensive and safe material ..innovationsreport.de This is a very interesting development http://www.innovationsreport.de/html/berichte/energie_elektrotechnik/ bericht-48872.html http://tinyurl.com/auxo6 regards tallex next_generation_grid http://groups.yahoo.com/group/next_generation_grid news resources forums tomorrow-energy http://groups.yahoo.com/group/tomorrow-energy Get your daily alternative energy news Alternate Energy Resource Network http://www.alternate-energy.net 1000+ news sources - resources updated daily ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.o rg Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] hydrogen tablet
Scientists at the Technical University of Denmark have invented a technology which may be an important step towards the hydrogen economy: a hydrogen tablet that effectively stores hydrogen in an inexpensive and safe material ..innovationsreport.de This is a very interesting development http://www.innovationsreport.de/html/berichte/energie_elektrotechnik/bericht-48872.html http://tinyurl.com/auxo6 regards tallex next_generation_grid http://groups.yahoo.com/group/next_generation_grid news resources forums tomorrow-energy http://groups.yahoo.com/group/tomorrow-energy Get your daily alternative energy news Alternate Energy Resource Network http://www.alternate-energy.net 1000+ news sources - resources updated daily ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] Hydrogen: Seperating the Wheat From the Chaff
Remember our discussion on "above unity" devices?
Well, our president in his profound wisdom has been selling the idea of a "hydrogen economy" without telling anyone where the hydrogen is coming from -- passing it off as a clean and renewableenergy "source".
Whilehe was babbling, I was reminded of how easy it is to sell an idea to an audience who wants to believe it -- especially if it has some foundation in fact.
Let's share a nostalgic moment with Stanley Meyer and the water powered car.
"Dennis Lee and Stanley Meyers drove together in Stanley's water powered car from California to New York using about 28 gallons of Water. Stanly was subsequently conscripted to work for the Pentagon and then was murdered by poison hoisting a toast to success powering Army Tanks using the hydrogen in water. "
See the local news clip on the revolutionary, water powered car.http://befreetech.com/energysuppression.htm
See Stanley Meyer's Water Powered Car Broadband Dialup
An illusion of legitimacy or a technology squashed by big oil interests?
Stanley Meyer's"water car patents":
http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2Sect2=HITOFFu=%2Fnetahtml%2Fsearch-adv.htmr=0f=Sl=50d=PTXTRS=%28IN%2FMeyer+AND+ABST%2F%28water+AND+automobile%29%29Refine=Refine+SearchQuery=IN%2F%22Meyer%2C+Stanley%22
http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2Sect2=HITOFFu=/netahtml/search-adv.htmr=5f=Gl=50d=PTXTp=1S1=('Meyer,+Stanley'.INZZ.)OS=IN/"Meyer,+Stanley"RS=IN/"Meyer,+Stanley"
http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2Sect2=HITOFFu=/netahtml/search-adv.htmr=4f=Gl=50d=PTXTp=1S1=('Meyer,+Stanley'.INZZ.)OS=IN/"Meyer,+Stanley"RS=IN/"Meyer,+Stanley"
http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2Sect2=HITOFFu=/netahtml/search-adv.htmr=6f=Gl=50d=PTXTp=1S1=('Meyer,+Stanley'.INZZ.)OS=IN/"Meyer,+Stanley"RS=IN/"Meyer,+Stanley"
http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2Sect2=HITOFFu=/netahtml/search-adv.htmr=2f=Gl=50d=PTXTp=1S1=('Meyer,+Stanley'.INZZ.)OS=IN/"Meyer,+Stanley"RS=IN/"Meyer,+Stanley"
http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2Sect2=HITOFFu=/netahtml/search-adv.htmr=7f=Gl=50d=PTXTp=1S1=('Meyer,+Stanley'.INZZ.)OS=IN/"Meyer,+Stanley"RS=IN/"Meyer,+Stanley"
http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2Sect2=HITOFFu=/netahtml/search-adv.htmr=3f=Gl=50d=PTXTp=1S1=('Meyer,+Stanley'.INZZ.)OS=IN/"Meyer,+Stanley"RS=IN/"Meyer,+Stanley"
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[Biofuel] Hydrogen - Cleaning up production
Hydrogen: The Next Generation Cleaning up production of a future fuel Jessica Gorman From Science News, Vol. 162, No. 15, Oct. 12, 2002, p. 235 http://www.phschool.com/science/science_news/articles/hydrogen_next_generation.html Today's world might run on fossil fuel, but many people predict that hydrogen will fuel the futurein cars, houses, and countless handheld electronic devices. Hydrogen-powered fuel cells (SN: 9/7/02, p. 155: http://www.sciencenews.org/20020907/bob10.asp) can generate electricity much more efficiently than fossil fuel can and without spewing polluting byproducts such as nitrous oxides, which contribute to smog, and carbon dioxide, the most prevalent gas behind global warming. All you do is generate water, says engineer Bruce E. Logan of the Pennsylvania State University in State College. Who can argue with water coming out of tailpipes? Yet there's a big cloud hanging over this sunny image of the fossil-fuel-free future: The main source of hydrogen at the moment is the hydrocarbon molecules in fossil fuel. That has to change, says Logan. Not only does the use of fossil fuel for making hydrogen create pollution, but fossil fuel eventually will run out. Right now, we can produce hydrogen, says Logan. Can we do it with a sustainable method? No. That's why Logan and others are trying to find alternative sources of hydrogen. Among these are renewable fuels, such as crops, agricultural detritus, and factory wastewater. Some researchers are even turning to dirt containing hydrogen-generating microbes. The success of the search could well determine whether hydrogen's promise as the clean fuel of the future will be fully realized. Hydrogen world The first and simplest element on the periodic table, hydrogen is colorless, odorless, and tasteless. It's the most common element in the galaxy, but frustratingly difficult to make on Earth without using fossil fuel. Nature is rich in hydrogen. It turns up throughout animal and plant tissue and fossil fuel, but breaking the element free is generally difficult. Water, for example, can split into hydrogen and oxygen when electricity passes through it. Unfortunately, on large scales, this seemingly straightforward process isn't yet economical. And we are far, far, far away from it, says chemical engineer Jens Rostrup-Nielsen at Haldor Topsoe in Lyngby, Denmark. Of course, the ideal would be to split water, but you need energy to split water, and where do you get the energy from? says Rostrup-Nielsen. Today, no doubt, the most economic way of producing hydrogen is from fossil fuels. Producers generate some 45 million metric tons of hydrogen globally each year from fossil fuel. Almost half of this hydrogen goes to making ammonia, NH3, a major component of fertilizer and a familiar ingredient in household cleaners. Refineries use the second largest chunk of hydrogen for chemical processes such as removing sulfur from gasoline and converting heavy hydrocarbons into gasoline and diesel fuel. Food producers use a small percentage, adding hydrogen to some edible oils in a process called hydrogenation. To make hydrogen, Haldor Topsoe and other companies usually employ a method called steam reforming. Vaporized fossil fuels, primarily natural gas, mix with steam at high pressures and temperatures with assistance from a nickel-based catalyst. The reforming technique yields hydrogen, but it also gives off carbon monoxide and carbon dioxide, the primary greenhouse gas. Such hydrogen generation from fossil fuel is the first step toward a new hydrogen economy, says Rostrup-Nielsen. Logan explains that although this approach still generates the pollution people are trying to avoid, those gases are released in a potentially more manageable wayin the reforming plant rather than in millions of mobile car engines. Nonetheless, shedding the habit of fossil fuel entirely is the only way a wholesale shift to hydrogen will work in the long term, Logan says. One approach to this goal is to apply steam-reforming methods to alternative renewable materials, says Esteban Chornet, who works at the National Renewable Energy Laboratory in Golden, Colo. Such materials might be derived from crops. Other scientists are experimenting with ponds of algae that use sunlight-driven reactions to make hydrogen (SN: 2/26/00, p. 134: http://www.sciencenews.org/2226/fob6.asp). Yet others are considering innovative ways of electrolyzing water for large-scale hydrogen generation. Logan thinks that converting biological waste, such as the sugar and starch in candy- or soda-factory wastewater, is a good way to go. Chemical engineer James A. Dumesic of the University of Wisconsin Madison is focusing on the byproducts of his state's corn, cheese, and paper production to make hydrogen. Not only do these biomass-conversion schemes turn trash into a valuable product, but the researchers say there's
Re: [Biofuel] hydrogen fire place
I dunno,seems like a closed system. Combusting H2 is just the reversal of the electrolysis (reduction/oxidation). It would appear to use no oxygen from the home air as opposed to a wood burner which doesn't supply its own oxygen. The only problem I see is that all the water that is used to produce the H2 will wind up in the house as high humidity. This concept would probably be excellent for heating a greenhouse. Terry Alt.EnergyNetwork [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: OK But don't shoot the messanger. I was paraphrasing some of the info from the site. I didn't design the device and have no association with that company. I posted the item because I thought that it was interesting. I have some reservations about their system as well. regards tallex ---Original Message--- From: Kirk McLoren Subject: Re: [Biofuel] hydrogen fire place Sent: 25 Apr 2005 15:16:12 Supplemental oxygen is mandatory in an unvented heater in most cases. Otherwise the oxygen level would get very low. Most ventless heaters are cycling on their low oxygen sensor as a result. Ventless heaters are cheap, thus the appeal. They are not of much use north of say Georgia. Besides, low oxygen levels are a VERY BAD idea. Kirk Alt.EnergyNetwork wrote: Hi all, This is interesting - a hydrogen fireplace. Uses standard electrolysis of water. You still have to use electricity for it to work so it is definately not free heat but it doesn't need any venting so it can be easily installed. Company states output at around 31,000 btu's. It is a pretty simple idea so I expect it won't be long before quite a few clones will be available. Certainly doesn't help solve the energy crisis though it will burn clean and has the option of adding the oxygen to the room air. The world's first hydrogen-burning fireplace launches next generation of hearth products http://www.heatnglo.com/news/pressrelease.asp?id=33 Get your daily alternative energy news http://groups.yahoo.com/group/next_generation_grid news resources forums http://groups.yahoo.com/group/tomorrow-energy Alternative Energy Politics http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Alternative_Energy_Politics/ Alternate Energy Resource Network 1000+ news sources resources updated daily http://www.alternate-energy.net ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ---Original Message--- ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] hydrogen fire place
The assumption is they won't go to the expense of storing oxygen. Also it is unlikely the electrolyzer would be indoors as electrolyte spillage could be a mess. Terry DeSimone [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:I dunno,seems like a closed system. Combusting H2 is just the reversal of the electrolysis (reduction/oxidation). It would appear to use no oxygen from the home air as opposed to a wood burner which doesn't supply its own oxygen. The only problem I see is that all the water that is used to produce the H2 will wind up in the house as high humidity. This concept would probably be excellent for heating a greenhouse. Terry Alt.EnergyNetwork wrote: OK But don't shoot the messanger. I was paraphrasing some of the info from the site. I didn't design the device and have no association with that company. I posted the item because I thought that it was interesting. I have some reservations about their system as well. regards tallex ---Original Message--- From: Kirk McLoren Subject: Re: [Biofuel] hydrogen fire place Sent: 25 Apr 2005 15:16:12 Supplemental oxygen is mandatory in an unvented heater in most cases. Otherwise the oxygen level would get very low. Most ventless heaters are cycling on their low oxygen sensor as a result. Ventless heaters are cheap, thus the appeal. They are not of much use north of say Georgia. Besides, low oxygen levels are a VERY BAD idea. Kirk Alt.EnergyNetwork wrote: Hi all, This is interesting - a hydrogen fireplace. Uses standard electrolysis of water. You still have to use electricity for it to work so it is definately not free heat but it doesn't need any venting so it can be easily installed. Company states output at around 31,000 btu's. It is a pretty simple idea so I expect it won't be long before quite a few clones will be available. Certainly doesn't help solve the energy crisis though it will burn clean and has the option of adding the oxygen to the room air. The world's first hydrogen-burning fireplace launches next generation of hearth products http://www.heatnglo.com/news/pressrelease.asp?id=33 Get your daily alternative energy news http://groups.yahoo.com/group/next_generation_grid news resources forums http://groups.yahoo.com/group/tomorrow-energy Alternative Energy Politics http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Alternative_Energy_Politics/ Alternate Energy Resource Network 1000+ news sources resources updated daily http://www.alternate-energy.net ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ---Original Message--- ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] hydrogen fire place
OK But don't shoot the messanger. I was paraphrasing some of the info from the site. I didn't design the device and have no association with that company. I posted the item because I thought that it was interesting. I have some reservations about their system as well. regards tallex ---Original Message--- From: Kirk McLoren [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Biofuel] hydrogen fire place Sent: 25 Apr 2005 15:16:12 Supplemental oxygen is mandatory in an unvented heater in most cases. Otherwise the oxygen level would get very low. Most ventless heaters are cycling on their low oxygen sensor as a result. Ventless heaters are cheap, thus the appeal. They are not of much use north of say Georgia. Besides, low oxygen levels are a VERY BAD idea. Kirk Alt.EnergyNetwork [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi all, This is interesting - a hydrogen fireplace. Uses standard electrolysis of water. You still have to use electricity for it to work so it is definately not free heat but it doesn't need any venting so it can be easily installed. Company states output at around 31,000 btu's. It is a pretty simple idea so I expect it won't be long before quite a few clones will be available. Certainly doesn't help solve the energy crisis though it will burn clean and has the option of adding the oxygen to the room air. The world's first hydrogen-burning fireplace launches next generation of hearth products http://www.heatnglo.com/news/pressrelease.asp?id=33 Get your daily alternative energy news http://groups.yahoo.com/group/next_generation_grid news resources forums http://groups.yahoo.com/group/tomorrow-energy Alternative Energy Politics http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Alternative_Energy_Politics/ Alternate Energy Resource Network 1000+ news sources resources updated daily http://www.alternate-energy.net ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam?ÊÊYahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ---Original Message--- ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] hydrogen fire place
Hi Greg, If I where you, I would be a little more carefull, telling people that try to find environmentle friendly ways of heating their house, that what they say is a joke. Making H2 costs energy, but as long as you can make H2 from a free source, like the sun is, what is the problem ? Even if the yield would only be 5%, you still catch these 5% in stead of letting it go. By the way, I didn't know the bridge in San Francisco was yours. Met vriendelijke groet, Pieter Koole Netherlands - Original Message - From: Greg Harbican [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, April 25, 2005 4:46 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] hydrogen fire place And how much more energy is going to be wasted, generating all the necessary H2? What a joke. If anyone want to buy the fireplace, I want to know, I have a bridge to sell them, in San Francisco CA. Greg H. - Original Message - From: Alt.EnergyNetwork [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, April 25, 2005 03:02 Subject: [Biofuel] hydrogen fire place Hi all, This is interesting - a hydrogen fireplace. Uses standard electrolysis of water. You still have to use electricity for it to work so it is definately not free heat but it doesn't need any venting so it can be easily installed. Company states output at around 31,000 btu's. It is a pretty simple idea so I expect it won't be long before quite a few clones will be available. Certainly doesn't help solve the energy crisis though it will burn clean and has the option of adding the oxygen to the room air. The world's first hydrogen-burning fireplace launches next generation of hearth products http://www.heatnglo.com/news/pressrelease.asp?id=33 Get your daily alternative energy news http://groups.yahoo.com/group/next_generation_grid news resources forums http://groups.yahoo.com/group/tomorrow-energy Alternative Energy Politics http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Alternative_Energy_Politics/ Alternate Energy Resource Network 1000+ news sources resources updated daily http://www.alternate-energy.net ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
[Biofuel] hydrogen fire place
Hi all, This is interesting - a hydrogen fireplace. Uses standard electrolysis of water. You still have to use electricity for it to work so it is definately not free heat but it doesn't need any venting so it can be easily installed. Company states output at around 31,000 btu's. It is a pretty simple idea so I expect it won't be long before quite a few clones will be available. Certainly doesn't help solve the energy crisis though it will burn clean and has the option of adding the oxygen to the room air. The world's first hydrogen-burning fireplace launches next generation of hearth products http://www.heatnglo.com/news/pressrelease.asp?id=33 Get your daily alternative energy news http://groups.yahoo.com/group/next_generation_grid news resources forums http://groups.yahoo.com/group/tomorrow-energy Alternative Energy Politics http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Alternative_Energy_Politics/ Alternate Energy Resource Network 1000+ news sources resources updated daily http://www.alternate-energy.net ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] hydrogen fire place
And how much more energy is going to be wasted, generating all the necessary H2? What a joke. If anyone want to buy the fireplace, I want to know, I have a bridge to sell them, in San Francisco CA. Greg H. - Original Message - From: Alt.EnergyNetwork [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, April 25, 2005 03:02 Subject: [Biofuel] hydrogen fire place Hi all, This is interesting - a hydrogen fireplace. Uses standard electrolysis of water. You still have to use electricity for it to work so it is definately not free heat but it doesn't need any venting so it can be easily installed. Company states output at around 31,000 btu's. It is a pretty simple idea so I expect it won't be long before quite a few clones will be available. Certainly doesn't help solve the energy crisis though it will burn clean and has the option of adding the oxygen to the room air. The world's first hydrogen-burning fireplace launches next generation of hearth products http://www.heatnglo.com/news/pressrelease.asp?id=33 Get your daily alternative energy news http://groups.yahoo.com/group/next_generation_grid news resources forums http://groups.yahoo.com/group/tomorrow-energy Alternative Energy Politics http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Alternative_Energy_Politics/ Alternate Energy Resource Network 1000+ news sources resources updated daily http://www.alternate-energy.net ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] hydrogen fire place
Supplemental oxygen is mandatory in an unvented heater in most cases. Otherwise the oxygen level would get very low. Most ventless heaters are cycling on their low oxygen sensor as a result. Ventless heaters are cheap, thus the appeal. They are not of much use north of say Georgia. Besides, low oxygen levels are a VERY BAD idea. Kirk Alt.EnergyNetwork [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi all, This is interesting - a hydrogen fireplace. Uses standard electrolysis of water. You still have to use electricity for it to work so it is definately not free heat but it doesn't need any venting so it can be easily installed. Company states output at around 31,000 btu's. It is a pretty simple idea so I expect it won't be long before quite a few clones will be available. Certainly doesn't help solve the energy crisis though it will burn clean and has the option of adding the oxygen to the room air. The world's first hydrogen-burning fireplace launches next generation of hearth products http://www.heatnglo.com/news/pressrelease.asp?id=33 Get your daily alternative energy news http://groups.yahoo.com/group/next_generation_grid news resources forums http://groups.yahoo.com/group/tomorrow-energy Alternative Energy Politics http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Alternative_Energy_Politics/ Alternate Energy Resource Network 1000+ news sources resources updated daily http://www.alternate-energy.net ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] hydrogen fire place
(...) If anyone want to buy the fireplace, I want to know, I have a bridge to sell them, in San Francisco CA. the golden one ? must be expensive ! FD ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
RE: [Biofuel] hydrogen fire place
Hello Greg. I fully agree with you. A common folk could use as a heat pump a standard or reversible (cold/hot) air conditioner with the cold side taking heat from the environment and releasing it at the hot side inside the room to warm it, besides it will heat the room with the energy of the electrical power in a given period of time plus the larger amount of heat taken from outside. Of couse the equipment needs some defrosting cycle for places were temperatures falls below the water freezing point. One important point, the AC unit should work as a heat pump with the compressor running to deliver the heat from outside, the ones that produces the heating using only electrical resistances has no use for this heat pumping action. Best Regards. Juan -- From: Greg Harbican [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent:25/04/2005 10:47 AM For:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject:Re: [Biofuel] hydrogen fire place And how much more energy is going to be wasted, generating all the neces sary H2? What a joke. If anyone want to buy the fireplace, I want to know, I have a bridge to sell them, in San Francisco CA. Greg H. - Original Message - From: Alt.EnergyNetwork [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, April 25, 2005 03:02 Subject: [Biofuel] hydrogen fire place Hi all, This is interesting - a hydrogen fireplace. Uses standard electrolysis of water. You still have to use electricity for it to work so it is definately not free heat but it doesn't need any venting so it can be easily installed. Company states output at around 31,000 btu's. It is a pretty simple idea so I expect it won't be long before quite a few clones will be available. Certainly doesn't help solve the energy crisis though it will burn clean and has the option of adding the oxygen to the room air. The world's first hydrogen-burning fireplace launches next generation of hearth products http://www.heatnglo.com/news/pressrelease.asp?id=33 Get your daily alternative energy news http://groups.yahoo.com/group/next_generation_grid news resources forums http://groups.yahoo.com/group/tomorrow-energy Alternative Energy Politics http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Alternative_Energy_Politics/ Alternate Energy Resource Network 1000+ news sources resources updated daily http://www.alternate-energy.net ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] hydrogen fire place
OK, I did some poking around and had a little trouble finding a Watt-hr/BTU value for hydrogen production using electrolysis. Does anyone have a link with some stats? Mike Kirk McLoren [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Supplemental oxygen is mandatory in an unvented heater in most cases. Otherwise the oxygen level would get very low. Most ventless heaters are cycling on their low oxygen sensor as a result. Ventless heaters are cheap, thus the appeal. They are not of much use north of say Georgia. Besides, low oxygen levels are a VERY BAD idea. Kirk Alt.EnergyNetwork wrote: Hi all, This is interesting - a hydrogen fireplace. Uses standard electrolysis of water. You still have to use electricity for it to work so it is definately not free heat but it doesn't need any venting so it can be easily installed. Company states output at around 31,000 btu's. It is a pretty simple idea so I expect it won't be long before quite a few clones will be available. Certainly doesn't help solve the energy crisis though it will burn clean and has the option of adding the oxygen to the room air. The world's first hydrogen-burning fireplace launches next generation of hearth products http://www.heatnglo.com/news/pressrelease.asp?id=33 Get your daily alternative energy news http://groups.yahoo.com/group/next_generation_grid news resources forums http://groups.yahoo.com/group/tomorrow-energy Alternative Energy Politics http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Alternative_Energy_Politics/ Alternate Energy Resource Network 1000+ news sources resources updated daily http://www.alternate-energy.net ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] hydrogen fire place
Nah It's a buy at $1,000,000 US. Just think of the money you can raise by charging $5.00 for each car.At 1000 vehicles ( minimum ) a day, that is over $1,800,000 a year. Like my friend says, I don't want to rule the world. I just want to collect the rent on it! Greg H. - Original Message - From: Frantz DESPREZ [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, April 25, 2005 09:21 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] hydrogen fire place Greg Harbican a crit : (...) If anyone want to buy the fireplace, I want to know, I have a bridge to sell them, in San Francisco CA. the golden one ? must be expensive ! FD ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] hydrogen fire place
If your electrolyzer is 50% efficient then half the power is lost. I guess they are thinking they can make hydrogen in the daytime and burn it at night. A battery and a heatpump would be enormously more efficient. Michael Redler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:OK, I did some poking around and had a little trouble finding a Watt-hr/BTU value for hydrogen production using electrolysis. Does anyone have a link with some stats? Mike Kirk McLoren wrote: Supplemental oxygen is mandatory in an unvented heater in most cases. Otherwise the oxygen level would get very low. Most ventless heaters are cycling on their low oxygen sensor as a result. Ventless heaters are cheap, thus the appeal. They are not of much use north of say Georgia. Besides, low oxygen levels are a VERY BAD idea. Kirk Alt.EnergyNetwork wrote: Hi all, This is interesting - a hydrogen fireplace. Uses standard electrolysis of water. You still have to use electricity for it to work so it is definately not free heat but it doesn't need any venting so it can be easily installed. Company states output at around 31,000 btu's. It is a pretty simple idea so I expect it won't be long before quite a few clones will be available. Certainly doesn't help solve the energy crisis though it will burn clean and has the option of adding the oxygen to the room air. The world's first hydrogen-burning fireplace launches next generation of hearth products http://www.heatnglo.com/news/pressrelease.asp?id=33 Get your daily alternative energy news http://groups.yahoo.com/group/next_generation_grid news resources forums http://groups.yahoo.com/group/tomorrow-energy Alternative Energy Politics http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Alternative_Energy_Politics/ Alternate Energy Resource Network 1000+ news sources resources updated daily http://www.alternate-energy.net ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Hydrogen Car Discussion on NPR - what about bio?
Join Ira and guests in this hour of Science Friday for a look at environmentally friendly cars. Will a hydrogen concept car unveiled this week ever hit the showroom? Plus, the latest on the Huygens space probe, headed toward Saturn's moon Titan... http://www.sciencefriday.com/index.html Ever notice that on NPR there is ALL talk about hybrid and even hyrodgen but NEVER talk about biodiesel? -- Patrick Campbell Home: 201.345.4133 Mobile: 602.723.3098 ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Hydrogen Car Discussion on NPR - what about bio?
Patrick Campbell wrote: On Fri, 14 Jan 2005, Phillip Wolfe wrote: Join Ira and guests in this hour of Science Friday for a look at environmentally friendly cars. Will a hydrogen concept car unveiled this week ever hit the showroom? Plus, the latest on the Huygens space probe, headed toward Saturn's moon Titan... http://www.sciencefriday.com/index.html Ever notice that on NPR there is ALL talk about hybrid and even hyrodgen but NEVER talk about biodiesel? Send them email and ask them why. I think it is because everyone knows about hybrids and everyone knows about hydrogen. Not everyone knows about biodiesel or what is being done with it. -- -- Martin Klingensmith http://infoarchive.net/ http://nnytech.net/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Hydrogen Car Discussion on NPR - what about biodiesel?
Martin, As for me, yes, I indeed sent them an inquiry during the live talk show but did not receive a response. Here it is (maybe too simple: Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 12:31:19 -0800 (PST) From: Phillip Wolfe [EMAIL PROTECTED] Add to Address Book Subject: Hydrogen Vs. Biodiesel Vs. Electric Vs. CNG To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Dear Science Friday Hosts Can you talk about all the new clean fuels, what is available now as near term generation clean fuels with existing infrastructure, what is next term, and what is long term? Thank you. --- Martin Klingensmith [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Patrick Campbell wrote: On Fri, 14 Jan 2005, Phillip Wolfe wrote: Join Ira and guests in this hour of Science Friday for a look at environmentally friendly cars. Will a hydrogen concept car unveiled this week ever hit the showroom? Plus, the latest on the Huygens space probe, headed toward Saturn's moon Titan... http://www.sciencefriday.com/index.html Ever notice that on NPR there is ALL talk about hybrid and even hyrodgen but NEVER talk about biodiesel? Send them email and ask them why. I think it is because everyone knows about hybrids and everyone knows about hydrogen. Not everyone knows about biodiesel or what is being done with it. -- -- Martin Klingensmith http://infoarchive.net/ http://nnytech.net/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ __ Do you Yahoo!? Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
[Biofuel] Hydrogen Car Discussion on NPR Science Friday Today NOW
Join Ira and guests in this hour of Science Friday for a look at environmentally friendly cars. Will a hydrogen concept car unveiled this week ever hit the showroom? Plus, the latest on the Huygens space probe, headed toward Saturn's moon Titan... http://www.sciencefriday.com/index.html __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
[Biofuel] hydrogen storage
Hi all, here are a few interesting links on hydrogen storage and nanotech. regards Hydrogen Storage http://www.fuelcellstore.com/information/hydrogen_storage.html Hydrogen Storage Technologies http://labtech.solo.bg/ Storing Hydrogen Safely http://www.nickelinstitute.org/index.cfm/ci_id/10813.htm Hydrogen Storage: Metal Hydrides in Comparison to Alternative Solutions for Emission-Free Vehicles http://www.gkss.de/Themen/W/WTP/wasserstoff/eSpeicher.html Lithium-based hydrogen storage compositions http://www.mcgill.ca/ott/technologies/pureappsci/99011/ Virtual Nanotech http://www.sciencenews.org/articles/20040207/bob8.asp UK Researchers Find Workable Hydrogen Storage Nanomaterial http://www.futurepundit.com/archives/002423.html Hydrogen Storage in Carbon Single-Wall Nanotubes http://www.eere.energy.gov/ hydrogenandfuelcells/pdfs/32405b28.pdf Nanotube Hydrogen Storage http://www.nano.unr.edu/KeyTopics/fuel_cells.asp Are nanotubes the best system for hydrogen storage? http://www.pa.msu.edu/cmp/csc/NANOTUBE-99/puzzles/4.html Get your daily alternative energy news http://groups.yahoo.com/group/next_generation_grid/ news resources forums http://groups.yahoo.com/group/tomorrow-energy/ alternative energy politics http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Alternative_Energy_Politics/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
[Biofuel] Hydrogen From Renewable Fuels
Ethanol CH3 CH2 OH New Reactor Puts Hydrogen From Renewable Fuels Within Reach Source: University Of Minnesota Feb 12, 2004 http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2004/02/040214081412.htm -or- http://www.ur.umn.edu/FMPro?-db=releases-lay=web-format=unsreleases/releasesdetail.htmlID=1155-Find MINNEAPOLIS / ST. PAUL (2/12/2004) -- The first reactor capable of producing hydrogen from a renewable fuel source - ethanol - efficiently enough to hold economic potential has been invented by University of Minnesota engineers. When coupled with a hydrogen fuel cell, the unit - small enough to hold in your hand - could generate one kilowatt of power, almost enough to supply an average home, the researchers said. The technology is poised to remove the major stumbling block to the ãhydrogen economyä: no free hydrogen exists, except what is made at high cost from fossil fuels. The work will be published in the Feb. 13 issue of Science. The researchers see an early use for their invention in remote areas, where the installation of new power lines is not feasible. People could buy ethanol and use it to power small hydrogen fuel cells in their basements. The process could also be extended to biodiesel fuels, the researchers said. Its benefits include reducing dependence on imported fuels, reducing carbon dioxide emissions (because the carbon dioxide produced by the reaction is stored in the next yearâs corn crop) and boosting rural economies. Hydrogen is now produced exclusively by a process called steam reforming, which requires very high temperatures and large furnaces÷in other words, a huge input of energy. Itâs unsuitable for any application except large-scale refineries, said Lanny Schmidt, Regents Professor of Chemical Engineering, who led the effort. Working with him were scientist Gregg Deluga, first author of the Science paper, and graduate student James Salge. All three are in the universityâs department of chemical engineering and materials science. ãThe hydrogen economy means cars and electricity powered by hydrogen,ä said Schmidt. ãBut hydrogen is hard to come by. You canât pipe it long distances. There are a few hydrogen fueling stations, but they strip hydrogen from methane÷natural gas÷on site. Itâs expensive, and because it uses fossil fuels, it increases carbon dioxide emissions, so this is only a short-term solution until renewable hydrogen is available.ä Ethanol is easy to transport and relatively nontoxic. It is already being produced from corn and used in car engines. But if it were used instead to produce hydrogen for a fuel cell, the whole process would be nearly three times as efficient. That is, a bushel of corn would yield three times as much power if its energy were channeled into hydrogen fuel cells rather than burned along with gasoline. ãWe can potentially capture 50 percent of the energy stored in sugar [in corn], whereas converting the sugar to ethanol and burning the ethanol in a car would harvest only 20 percent of the energy in sugar,ä said Schmidt. ãEthanol in car engines is burned with 20 percent efficiency, but if you used ethanol to make hydrogen for a fuel cell, you would get 60 percent efficiency.ä The difference, Deluga explained, is due in large part to the need to remove all the water from ethanol before it can be put in an automobile gas tank÷and the last drops of water are the hardest to remove. But the new process doesnât require pure ethanol; in fact, it strips hydrogen from both ethanol and water, yielding a hydrogen bonus. The invention rests on two innovations: a catalyst based on the metals rhodium and ceria, and an automotive fuel injector that vaporizes and mixes the ethanol-water fuel. The vaporized fuel mixture is injected into a tube that contains a porous plug made from rhodium and ceria. The fuel mixture passes through the plug and emerges as a mixture of hydrogen, carbon dioxide and minor products. The reaction takes only 50 milliseconds and eliminates the flames and soot that commonly accompany ethanol combustion. In a typical ethanol-water fuel mixture, one could ideally get five molecules of hydrogen for each molecule of ethanol. Reacting ethanol alone would yield three hydrogen molecules. So far, the Schmidt team has harvested four hydrogen molecules per ethanol molecule. ãWeâre confident we can improve this technology to increase the yield of hydrogen and use it to power a workable fuel cell,ä said Salge. The work was supported by the University of Minnesotaâs Initiative on Renewable Energy and the Environment, the National Science Foundation and the U.S. Department of Energy. More about the research grants including ethanol reactor photo -- http://www.cbs.umn.edu/main/aboutcbs/bio/spring2004/abstracts.html Related news posts -- [biofuel] Hydrogen Reactor 2004-02-13 http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/BIOFUEL/31956/ [biofuel] Re: Scientists
Re: [Biofuel] Hydrogen From Renewable Fuels
[biofuel] EERE Network News -- 02/18/04 http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/BIOFUEL/32089/ Engineers Find Economical Way to Make Hydrogen from Ethanol and just below Novozymes enzyme cost break through. Oops, sorry. ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
[Biofuel] Hydrogen economy looks out of reach
Hydrogen economy looks out of reach Mark Peplow 07 October 2004 http://www.nature.com/news/2004/041004/pf/041004-13_pf.html US vehicles would require a million wind turbines, economists claim. Converting every vehicle in the United States to hydrogen power would demand so much electricity that the country would need enough wind turbines to cover half of California or 1,000 extra nuclear power stations. So concludes a British economist, whose calculation is intended to highlight the difficulties of achieving a truly green hydrogen economy. This calculation is useful to make people realize what an enormous problem we face, says Andrew Oswald, an economist from the University of Warwick. The hydrogen economy has been touted as a replacement for fossil fuels, which release carbon dioxide when burnt, thus contributing to global warming. Burning hydrogen produces only water. Most hydrogen is currently made from methane, in a process that releases carbon dioxide into the atmosphere. Splitting water molecules with electricity generates hydrogen - but the electricity is likely to have been generated from fossil fuels. Although this may shift urban pollution to out-of-town electricity plants, it makes little difference to greenhouse-gas output. Today, hydrogen is not a clean, green fuel, says Oswald's brother Jim, an energy consultant who assisted with the calculation. You've got to ask: where did the hydrogen come from? The only technology that can currently make large amounts of hydrogen without using fossil fuels relies on renewable power sources or nuclear energy, the Oswalds argue. Hydrogen will only mitigate global warming when a clean source of the gas becomes available, they say. Unpopular options The duo considered the United Kingdom and the United States. Transport accounts for about one third of each country's energy consumption. UK transport uses only a tenth as much energy as the United States, but there is less land available: the hydrogen switch would require 100,000 wind turbines, enough to occupy an area greater than Wales. It's unlikely that enough turbines could ever be built, says Jim Oswald. On the other hand, public opposition to nuclear energy deters many politicians. I suspect we will do nothing, because all the options are so unpopular. I don't think we'll ever have a true hydrogen economy. The outlook is extremely bleak, he adds. The brothers outline their calculation in the current issue of Accountancy magazine. Hydrogen is not a near-term prospect, agrees Paul Ekins, an energy economist at the Policy Studies Institute, London. There will have to be a few fundamental breakthroughs in technology first, he says. Politicians eager to promote their green credentials, yet unaware of the realities, have oversold the hydrogen dream, says Ekins. I'm amazed by the number of politicians who think you can dig hydrogen out of the ground, he says. However, he thinks that the Oswalds are too pessimistic about the possibilities of new technology. An enormous amount of attention is being paid to generating hydrogen cleanly, he says. If we could trap the carbon dioxide produced by fossil fuels underground, we could convert them to hydrogen, says Ekins. It's not tried and tested, but it's a possibility. And it could become a reality by the time we have enough hydrogen-powered cars to make it necessary, he says. So do the Oswalds have a more immediate answer to the hydrogen problem? We could always use less energy, but that doesn't seem very likely, Jim Oswald says ruefully. ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [biofuel] hydrogen economy really oil
preposterous. Much like a misguided concern about global exhaustion of atmospheric oxygen from burning fossil fuels. So I would very much like to see a reference to either the low oxygen concentrations in big cities and or the connection between low oxygenation and cancer. Kirk McLoren wrote: Reduction of O2 is being ignored. I hear it is as low as 16% in some cities. Low oxygenation and cancer are linked. Kirk robert harder [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The hydrogen economy is being pushed because it is favored by the current oil companies, the cheapest source of hydrogen is oil and therefore switching to hydrogen will not reduce the use or profits of oil, but i fear that large scale use of hydrogen that was not sourced from the electrolysis of water (which is useless as energy source, only a method of energy storage) will lead to an increase in the total volume of water in earths biosphere and water vapor in our atmosphere which I beleive will be far more apt to alter weather than our current problems of co2 and co - Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we. ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ -- -- Bob Allen,http://ozarker.org/bob -- - The modern conservative is engaged in one of Man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness JKG --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [biofuel] hydrogen economy really oil
Reduction of O2 is being ignored. I hear it is as low as 16% in some cities. Low oxygenation and cancer are linked. Kirk robert harder [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The hydrogen economy is being pushed because it is favored by the current oil companies, the cheapest source of hydrogen is oil and therefore switching to hydrogen will not reduce the use or profits of oil, but i fear that large scale use of hydrogen that was not sourced from the electrolysis of water (which is useless as energy source, only a method of energy storage) will lead to an increase in the total volume of water in earths biosphere and water vapor in our atmosphere which I beleive will be far more apt to alter weather than our current problems of co2 and co - Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we. ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Hydrogen Economy (was Question - efficiency of sunlight
Hey Darryl, I agree with you, why aren't biofuels as sexy as fuel cells? Where's hollyood when you need them? I have always thought that if people could understand the idea of carbon neutrality, biodiesel and other distillates would be a no brainer. I'll take some fresh atmospheric carbon with that please, hold the petroleum. Or maybe Pamela Anderson with rapeseed oil all over her breasts. Or maybe the fast food industry instigating fatty foods ingestion to fuel our energy economy. sounds econogical Jonathan From: Darryl McMahon [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 2004/09/18 Sat AM 10:18:11 CDT To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [Biofuel] Hydrogen Economy (was Question - efficiency of sunlight conversion) Hi Donald, you pressed my HE button. Response in-line below. Donald Allwright [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snip PV vs biofuel text (available at http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/BIOFUEL/38355/) As an aside, I am puzzled as to why there is so much emphasis being placed on the Hydrogen Economy at the moment, especially by the US government. Hydogen is just a way of storing and transporting energy, just as are biofuels. OK, I realise that fuel cells can theoretically deliver a greater whole-cycle efficiency than biofuels, but it seems to me that a lot of money is being spent on something that probably won't give us a cost-effective solution for at least 20 years - given that there are still a large number of technical hurdles without totally satisfactory solutions. On the other hand, biofuel technology is pretty mature - most of it is at least 100 years old - and is available now. Biofuels could be used on a very wide scale without making any major changes to the infrastructure, such as the supply chain. While it does make sense to fund research into technology that one day may be even better, it seems that this is a poor excuse for not promoting technologies that can provide real benefits today. I do sometimes wonder whether it's more about 'image' - in other words, talking about Hydrogen is trendy, in a way that for example biodiesel is not. Donald Why would a government with ties to the oil and coal industries be promoting the Hydrogen Economy? Could it be because the primary source for hydrogen today is natural gas? Or because the next source being promoted is from gasification of coal? Or because the Hydrogen Economy provides a convenient screen to hide behind for at least 20 years so the oil and automotive sectors can continue to operate in a business as usual mode in relative peace and quiet? Deflecting criticism for not developing electric (advanced battery) vehicles or electric-(bio)diesel hybrids (per PNGV) vehicles that would upset their current operations and investment? (Look how green we are! We're spending the taxpayer's money on hydrogen cars.) Or because if the Hydrogen Economy, if it actually comes to fruition, would actually increase demand for fossil fuels for the next 25-50 years? It's not because the hydrogen will be produced from sustainable energy sources - the current U.S. government is cutting support for renewables. I don't think the motivation is nearly as benign as image. As for cycle efficiency for hydrogen fuel cells, it's not nearly as rosy as advertised. Probably in the order of 5%. See slide 17 from my presentation at http://www.econogics.com/en/hydrogen.doc . Or my article at http://www.econogics.com/ev/fcevreal.htm . Or just start in at my webpage on the hydrogen economy at http://www.econogics.com/en/heconomy.htm to get the whole story. snip earlier PV vs biofuel conversation text (available at http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/BIOFUEL/38355/) -- Darryl McMahon http://www.econogics.com/ It's your planet. If you won't look after it, who will? ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Ski until you die ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
[Biofuel] Hydrogen Economy (was Question - efficiency of sunlight conversion)
Hi Donald, you pressed my HE button. Response in-line below. Donald Allwright [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snip PV vs biofuel text (available at http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/BIOFUEL/38355/) As an aside, I am puzzled as to why there is so much emphasis being placed on the Hydrogen Economy at the moment, especially by the US government. Hydogen is just a way of storing and transporting energy, just as are biofuels. OK, I realise that fuel cells can theoretically deliver a greater whole-cycle efficiency than biofuels, but it seems to me that a lot of money is being spent on something that probably won't give us a cost-effective solution for at least 20 years - given that there are still a large number of technical hurdles without totally satisfactory solutions. On the other hand, biofuel technology is pretty mature - most of it is at least 100 years old - and is available now. Biofuels could be used on a very wide scale without making any major changes to the infrastructure, such as the supply chain. While it does make sense to fund research into technology that one day may be even better, it seems that this is a poor excuse for not promoting technologies that can provide real benefits today. I do sometimes wonder whether it's more about 'image' - in other words, talking about Hydrogen is trendy, in a way that for example biodiesel is not. Donald Why would a government with ties to the oil and coal industries be promoting the Hydrogen Economy? Could it be because the primary source for hydrogen today is natural gas? Or because the next source being promoted is from gasification of coal? Or because the Hydrogen Economy provides a convenient screen to hide behind for at least 20 years so the oil and automotive sectors can continue to operate in a business as usual mode in relative peace and quiet? Deflecting criticism for not developing electric (advanced battery) vehicles or electric-(bio)diesel hybrids (per PNGV) vehicles that would upset their current operations and investment? (Look how green we are! We're spending the taxpayer's money on hydrogen cars.) Or because if the Hydrogen Economy, if it actually comes to fruition, would actually increase demand for fossil fuels for the next 25-50 years? It's not because the hydrogen will be produced from sustainable energy sources - the current U.S. government is cutting support for renewables. I don't think the motivation is nearly as benign as image. As for cycle efficiency for hydrogen fuel cells, it's not nearly as rosy as advertised. Probably in the order of 5%. See slide 17 from my presentation at http://www.econogics.com/en/hydrogen.doc . Or my article at http://www.econogics.com/ev/fcevreal.htm . Or just start in at my webpage on the hydrogen economy at http://www.econogics.com/en/heconomy.htm to get the whole story. snip earlier PV vs biofuel conversation text (available at http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/BIOFUEL/38355/) -- Darryl McMahon http://www.econogics.com/ It's your planet. If you won't look after it, who will? ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
[biofuel] hydrogen highway
Hydrogen Highway http://www.alternate-energy.net/hydrogen_highway04.html The Hydrogen Highway California's answer to higher gas prices. May 20 , 2004 By Allen Gibson The price of oil surpassed forty dollars a barrel this Spring - a high not seen except for a few days prior to the first Gulf War. The experts agree that the price is likely to stay high for the next few years, and after that it may go are you ready for this? even higher. Famous Texas Oilman T. Boone Pickens, speaking recently to a large crowd at the Petroleum Club in Midland, Texas, predicted that oil would never fall below $30 a barrel again. I think you'll see $50 a barrel before you see $30, declared Mr. Pickens. Is the high cost of energy a surprise? Did no one see this coming? No, and yes. Oil industry observers have been saying for decades that oil production will peak soon, that supplies will begin to drop on a global scale and that, someday, we will just plain run out. We aren't there yet. Production, in fact, has been slowly but steadily increasing for the past two decades. But what most people seem to have missed is the surge in demand and consumption in the worlds' two most populous nations, China and India. full article http://www.alternate-energy.net/hydrogen_highway04.html Alternative Energy Weekly News Alerts http://www.alternate-energy.net/newsalerts04-12.html Magnetism and Magnetic Physics http://www.alternate-energy.net/hist04-1b.html Electro-Magnetics http://www.alternate-energy.net/electromagnetic04.html Software Tools for Magnetic Field Visualization, electromagnetic and High Frequency Electromagnetic Simulation etc. http://www.alternate-energy.net/soft04.html Magnetic Levitation and Magnetic Physics resources http://www.alternate-energy.net/electrolev04b.html Alternate Energy Resource Network http://www.alternate-energy.net Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] hydrogen
At 09:56 AM 3/29/2004 -0700, you wrote: You mean like it is a cryogenic fluid when stored as a liquid? Yes, but the method I was talking about was using cheap pumps to pump hydrogen at high pressure into cheap diving tanks, to run your car, and cook with. Tad Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] hydrogen
Tad Johnson wrote: At 09:56 AM 3/29/2004 -0700, you wrote: You mean like it is a cryogenic fluid when stored as a liquid? Yes, but the method I was talking about was using cheap pumps to pump hydrogen at high pressure into cheap diving tanks, to run your car, and cook with. Tad Yikes! What kind of cheap pump are you talking about? Hydrogen should be handled with utmost respect and care. The pumps designed for natural gas will work, but I wouldn't use anything designed for air--including the tanks. Stick with the composite natural gas tanks for the sake of safety and PLEASE be careful! robert luis rabello The Edge of Justice Adventure for Your Mind http://www.1stbooks.com/bookview/9782 Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] hydrogen
Yikes! What kind of cheap pump are you talking about? Hydrogen should be handled with utmost respect and care. The pumps designed for natural gas will work, but I wouldn't use anything designed for air--including the tanks. Stick with the composite natural gas tanks for the sake of safety and PLEASE be careful! Scavenged pump from an old refrigerator. Been using it for over a year now in this process. The tank has an O2 sensor built into it now and I put a vacuum on it before I start filling with H2. Then I also bleed off a little H2 in the process under vacuum to make absolutely certain the O2 has been purged. 600-700 PSI is all I get out of the pump at it's maximum output so it's nowhere near the 3000 PSI rating of the diving tank. Tad Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] hydrogen
You'd be better off using downdraught gasification. Safer. No to low pressure. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: Tad Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, March 29, 2004 3:54 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] hydrogen At 09:56 AM 3/29/2004 -0700, you wrote: You mean like it is a cryogenic fluid when stored as a liquid? Yes, but the method I was talking about was using cheap pumps to pump hydrogen at high pressure into cheap diving tanks, to run your car, and cook with. Tad Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] hydrogen
Tad Johnson wrote: Scavenged pump from an old refrigerator. Been using it for over a year now in this process. How are you lubricating the compressor? I've heard of people using this approach in the past, but only as a rumor. The tank has an O2 sensor built into it now and I put a vacuum on it before I start filling with H2. Then I also bleed off a little H2 in the process under vacuum to make absolutely certain the O2 has been purged. This sounds like a good practice. 600-700 PSI is all I get out of the pump at it's maximum output so it's nowhere near the 3000 PSI rating of the diving tank. Surely you can't get much range out of a diving tank loaded only to 700 psi! This outfit will sell you a reconditioned natural gas pump that delivers much higher pressures. http://www.ecofuel.com/ There's nothing about this on their web site, but if you contact them and ask, you'll get the information you're looking for. It will be something similar to the personal fueling appliance supposedly offered by Stuart at the following site: http://www.stuartenergy.com/main_our_products.html Are you the guy driving around in that Toyota pickup truck with hydrogen tanks in the back? robert luis rabello The Edge of Justice Adventure for Your Mind http://www.1stbooks.com/bookview/9782 Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] hydrogen
At 10:12 PM 3/28/2004 +, you wrote: Does anybody know what are the hazards of storing and using hydrogen? Same for any gas except it has the fastest rate of explosion of any gas when combined with oxygen. Just like any gas it must be storage without the presence of any other gas except maybe argon or nitrogen. I've been working with hydrogen for 9 years now and have found it to be the energy of the future without a doubt. Now, the problem becomes creating it via efficient processes. Solar thermal production is a viable system for fueling your vehicle with it, and while you are at work the system makes more for the next day (assuming no clouds). Hydrogen can also be used in extremely lean mixtures, up to 75:1 would not be out of the question. It can also be lit with a platinum catalyst, and produces an almost invisible flame with temperatures 4000F and higher typical. Refrigeration compressors can be used to fill high pressure tanks at 700PSI and then used for cooking, vehicles, etc. A vacuum is first placed on the tank to make sure the oxygen is eliminated before filling. With oxygen in the tank you would have an extremely potent bomb with explosion characteristics similar to nitroglycerine I would think. I am working on a high-voltage production method first mentioned by Nikola Tesla. I will know if the system is more efficient than standard electrolysis this year. Tad Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] hydrogen
You mean like it is a cryogenic fluid when stored as a liquid? Greg H. - Original Message - From: brainchild0069 To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, March 28, 2004 15:12 Subject: [biofuel] hydrogen Does anybody know what are the hazards of storing and using hydrogen? Aside from the same hazards of storing any flammable gas,I mean. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT -- Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] hydrogen
Does anybody know what are the hazards of storing and using hydrogen? Aside from the same hazards of storing any flammable gas,I mean. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] hydrogen
brainchild0069 wrote: Does anybody know what are the hazards of storing and using hydrogen? Aside from the same hazards of storing any flammable gas,I mean. Any ferrous metal exposed to hydrogen under pressure exceeding 150 psi will suffer from embrittlement. H2 is a very small molecule and leaks easily. With a flammability limit beginning in as little as 5%, it burns very easily with a colorless, odorless flame. (Hence, it's nearly impossible to tell when hydrogen is burning.) All gases stored under pressure must be treated with the utmost care and respect. Please be careful. robert luis rabello The Edge of Justice Adventure for Your Mind http://www.1stbooks.com/bookview/9782 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Hydrogen Hokum Round-up
Dihydrogen Monoxide is water. - Original Message - From: murdoch [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, March 26, 2004 2:06 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Hydrogen Hokum Round-up On Thu, 25 Mar 2004 18:51:28 EST, you wrote: Dihydrogen Monoxide Research Division - dihydrogen monoxide info Every concerned environmentalist should visit this site. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] What site? You are sending messages to the group which appear to have some parts of them removed when they reach my email. A simple pasting of the link is I think what you're looking for. Probably you meant this one: http://www.dhmo.org/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Hydrogen Hokum Round-up
Dihydrogen Monoxide Research Division - dihydrogen monoxide info Every concerned environmentalist should visit this site. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Hydrogen Hokum Round-up
On Thu, 25 Mar 2004 18:51:28 EST, you wrote: Dihydrogen Monoxide Research Division - dihydrogen monoxide info Every concerned environmentalist should visit this site. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] What site? You are sending messages to the group which appear to have some parts of them removed when they reach my email. A simple pasting of the link is I think what you're looking for. Probably you meant this one: http://www.dhmo.org/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Hydrogen Hokum Round-up
Let's see, in the past few days there has been plenty of hydrogen hype reported. California has stated they expect to have hydrogen cars on the road in significant numbers by 2010. http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/0226HydrogenHighway26- ON.html The U.S. federal government figures they can bring the transition to hydrogen as a road fuel by 2020. (Bush's State of the Union address, January 2003, repeated over and over again since) H. Tiny disconnect there, methinks. The government of California announces they are going to finance the conversion of 30 Toyota Priuses to hydrogen power for a mere US$77,000 per vehicle. Base car and refueling infrastructure not included. What I found really interesting was that this conversion is to replace the *internal combustion engine* with a hydrogen- burning engine, not replacing the batteries with a fuel cell. No wonder this is such a deal (by hydrogen car standards), no fuel cell technology being used, and the proven TMC hybrid technology makes the hydrogen engine efficiency look acceptable. http://www.qtww.com/news_events/index.shtml The U.S. DOE publishes its Hydrogen Posture Plan (a document so full of puffery that my printer refuses to produce it as readable hard copy). It includes claims by Energy Secretary Spencer Abraham that the plan can advance a commercialization decision by 15 years, from 2030 to 2015 (regarding hydrogen fuel cell vehicles and supporting infrastructure). Later (page iii), we read DOE envisions a four-phase process to fully realize a hydrogen economy by 2030-2040. The document does not address the issue of efficiency of producing hydrogen, other than to say it needs to be improved, and provides no defined targets or estimates of current state of the art. http://www.eere.energy.gov/hydrogenandfuelcells/pdfs/hydrogen_posture_plan.pdf Pick a date, any date. Then, I thought the Sierra Club was getting with the program, but on closer reading see they have not actually shifted mind sets. They're still pushing for fuel cells http://www.sierraclub.org/globalwarming/solutions/fuelcells.asp and implicitly the hydrogen economy, it's just the lack of defined deliverables under the FreedomCar program they're taking issue with. But at least they are beginning to understand that the hydrogen economy is about *more* pollution until we get a serious renewable energy strategy into play first. For those of you that have not yet visited, my hydrogen economy webpage is at http://www.econogics.com/en/heconomy.htm Darryl McMahon Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Hydrogen Hokum Round-up
This may be of interest...sorry about the weird spacing. Page 1 Date: 2004-02-06 16:10:19Topic: Energy and Environment Plants could point way to cheap hydrogen processing The possibility of using the Earth's abundant supply of water as a cheap source of hydrogen is a step closer thanks to researchers from Imperial College London. By mimicking the method plants use to split water, researchers say that a highly energy efficient way to form cheap supplies of hydrogen fuel may be possible in the future. From the Imperial College of Science, Technology and Medicine : Seeing how plants split water could provide key to our future energy needs The possibility of using the Earth's abundant supply of water as a cheap source of hydrogen is a step closer thanks to researchers from Imperial College London. By mimicking the method plants use to split water, researchers say that a highly energy efficient way to form cheap supplies of hydrogen fuel may be possible in the future. Reporting online in the journal Science today Imperial researchers reveal the fine detail of the protein complex that drives photosynthesis - the process that converts atmospheric carbon dioxide into organic matter and oxygen (O2) by using sunlight to split water (H2O). Using X-ray crystallography, the researchers describe for the first time the mechanism that underpins the photosynthetic water-splitting reaction. By analysing these findings the researchers believe it may be possible to learn how to recreate the process on an industrial scale, allowing hydrogen to be manufactured as a fuel. Professor Jim Barber of Imperial's Department of Biological Sciences explains: Without photosynthesis life on Earth would not exist as we know it. Oxygen derived from this process is part of the air we breathe and maintains the ozone layer needed to protect us from UV radiation. Now hydrogen also contained in water could be one of the most promising energy sources for the future. Unlike fossil fuels it's highly efficient, low polluting and is mobile so it can be used for power generation in remote regions where it's difficult to access electricity. But the problem is hydrogen doesn't exist on Earth by itself. Instead it Page 1 of 3 printed on 10.03.2004 at 16.13 . Page 2 combines with other elements such as oxygen to form water, or with carbon to form methane, coal and petroleum. However, water is very stable and for this reason cannot be used directly as a fuel. Researchers have investigated using electrolysis to split water into oxygen and hydrogen but today it costs ten times as much as natural gas, and is three times as expensive as gasoline. Yet nature figured out how to split water using sunlight in an energy efficient way 2.5 billion years ago. By revealing the structure of the water splitting centre we can begin to unravel how to perform this task in an energy efficient way too. Photosynthesis occurs in plants, some bacteria and algae and involves two protein complexes, photosystem I, and photosystem II - which contains the water-splitting centre. While previous models of PSII function have sketched out a picture of how the water splitting centre might be organised, the Imperial team were able to reveal the structure of the centre at a resolution of 3.5 angstroms (or one hundred millionth of a centimetre) in the cyanobacterium, Thermosynechococcus elongatus by combining the expertise of Professor So Iwata in solving protein structures and Professor Jim Barber in the photosynthetic process. Results by other groups, including those obtained using lower resolution X-ray crystallography at 3.7 angstroms have shown that the splitting of water occurs at a catalytic centre that consists of four manganese atoms (Mn), explains Professor So Iwata of Imperial's Department of Biological Sciences. We've taken this further by showing that three of the manganese atoms, a calcium atom and four oxygen atoms form a cube like structure, which brings stability to the catalytic centre. The forth and most reactive manganese atom is attached to one of the oxygen atoms of the cube. Together this arrangement gives strong hints about the water-splitting chemistry. Our structure also reveals the position of key amino acids, the building blocks of proteins, which provide a details of how cofactors are recruited into the reaction centre. Professor Barber added: PSII is truly the 'engine of life' and it has been a major challenge of modern science to understand how it works. Manufacturing hydrogen from water using the photosynthetic method would be far more efficient than using electrolysis and if we can learn how to use even a fraction of the 326 million cubic miles of water on the planet we can begin to address the world's pressing need for new and Page 2 of 3 printed on
Re: [biofuel] Hydrogen Hokum Round-up
The government of California announces they are going to finance the conversion of 30 Toyota Priuses to hydrogen power for a mere US$77,000 per vehicle. Base car and refueling infrastructure not included. What I found really interesting was that this conversion is to replace the *internal combustion engine* with a hydrogen- burning engine, not replacing the batteries with a fuel cell. No wonder this is such a deal (by hydrogen car standards), no fuel cell technology being used, and the proven TMC hybrid technology makes the hydrogen engine efficiency look acceptable. http://www.qtww.com/news_events/index.shtml Generally, the hydrogen fuel cell vehicles I've been in have the hydrogen portion of the power replacing the internal combusion engine. not replacing the battery. Both the Toyota and Nissan (which is based on Toyota Technology) at EVS20 were hybrids of this sort, not exactly Prius technology, but I think with some relation. (The Nissan used a Li-Ion battery, which is logical considering that with their $500,000 Altra EV they used Li-Ion and not NiMH). The Honda FC vehicle also was a hybrid, using an ultracapacitor instead of a battery. So, I'm not sure it would be uncommon for a FC vehicle to have some supplemental hybrid power, such as a battery or a UC. It might be a little unusual for Hydrgoen-IC-engine vehicle. I don't know. But I don't see it as any sort of problem or anything. I've always thought of Hydrogen as generally proposed to replace gaseous and liquid fuels. You are right to point out that by starting with the 1st or 2nd most-energy-efficient vehicle on the road, the creators of that H2 engine vehicle are sort of cheating if they end up claiming some super-giganto-efficiency that is really just the excellence of Prius Technology asserting itself. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Hydrogen Reactor
Personally I am not a big believer in a hydrogen economy but this did get the interest of our local paper. fred http://startribune.com/stories/1592/4374132.html Associated Press University reactor shows promise for `hydrogen economy' Researchers at the University of Minnesota say they have built a prototype reactor that produces hydrogen from ethanol so efficiently that it could one day power conventional fuel cells for homes. The technology is cheaper and more efficient than the current commercial method of capturing hydrogen from fuel, which is done with fossil fuels in large refineries, the scientists said. They said the reactor they built is much smaller and simpler and requires less energy. Their technology could be coupled with a fuel cell to generate nearly enough energy to power an average-sized home, according to the scientists, who will publish their findings in the Feb. 13 issue of the magazine Science. ``This points to a way to make renewable hydrogen that may be economical and available,'' said Lanny Schmidt, a chemical engineer who led the study. Gregg Deluga and graduate student James Salge also worked on the project. All three are in the department of chemical engineering and materials science. The men built the reactor, a 2-foot-high apparatus of tubes, valves and wires, in a laboratory on the university's East Bank. The hydrogen-driven fuel cell they envision might be a little larger than a coffee cup. Right now, hydrogen can be made cheaply only in large refineries that use fuels such as natural gas. The new technology holds promise for a ``hydrogen economy'' that would use hydrogen to fuel cars and make electricity. It also holds economic potential for Midwest farmers, who are leaders in the production of corn-based ethanol. A bushel of corn, the researchers said, yields three times as much power if its energy is channeled into hydrogen fuel cells rather than burned with gasoline. Hydrogen, a clean energy source, emits no pollution or greenhouse gases. President Bush supports funding for the development of hydrogen-powered fuel cells that are commercially viable. George Sverdrup, a technology manager at the National Renewable Energy Laboratory, said he was encouraged by the research. ``When hydrogen takes a foothold and penetrates the marketplace, it will probably come from a variety of sources and be produced by a variety of techniques,'' he said. ``So this particular advance and technology that Minnesota is reporting on would be one component in a big system.'' While ethanol could be an important part of a hydrogen economy, Sverdrup said it's unlikely corn itself would be enough to support the entire system. The University of Minnesota researchers initially envision people buying ethanol to power the small fuel cell in homes in remote areas where installing power lines isn't feasible. The cell could produce 1 kilowatt of power, nearly enough for an average home. According to their estimate, a gallon of ethanol costing $1 could be used to produce energy for about 4 cents per kilowatt hour. That would be in the ballpark with national figures for the cost of raw energy, said a spokesman for the Edison Electric Institute, a national energy association. Frederick E. Finch Delivery System Manager MINITEX Delivery Services [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] (612) 624-3374 Direct 15 Andersen Library(612) 624-4002 Office 222 21st Avenue South (800) 462-5348 WATS Minneapolis MN 55455(612) 624-4508 FAX Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Hydrogen Reactor
It would be interesting if this apparatus could be fit in a car on a small scale. Folks in Brazil and elsewhere, already carrying some ethanol on board, would have a choice, something new to experiment with, to see what gets the best mileage and power and reliability and other characteristics. On Fri, 13 Feb 2004 07:25:00 -0600, you wrote: Personally I am not a big believer in a hydrogen economy but this did get the interest of our local paper. fred http://startribune.com/stories/1592/4374132.html Associated Press University reactor shows promise for `hydrogen economy' Researchers at the University of Minnesota say they have built a prototype reactor that produces hydrogen from ethanol so efficiently that it could one day power conventional fuel cells for homes. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Hydrogen in power generation
An other one. Hydrogen in power generation. by Hakan Falk, Energy Saving Now http://energy.saving.nu/hydrogen/hydrogenpower.shtml One of the most controversial energy discussions, is the current US promotion of hydrogen usage in the transportation sector. We, among many others, have the opinion that this technology application is far from ready for use and that it is even not sure if it can be practically done. This discussions have such a high profile, that it overshadow many ready for use technologies and turns out to be more a diversion than a possible solution. A common misunderstandings is that hydrogen from electrolysis of water would be an energy source, when it in reality is an energy conversion and storage solution. One of the most interesting and ready for use applications that been overshadowed, is actually connected with hydrogen itself and is the use of hydrogen as storage in power generation applications. Hydrogen have been used for many years in stationary industrial applications and both experience and solutions are available for this type of use. A while ago, Norsk Hydro announced that they were engaged in developing solutions for this and it was a welcomed confirmation on the feasibility of this important and logical application. We have been quite enthusiastic for such a development for a long time and voiced suggestions of using it for solutions to the current Natural Gas (NG) crises in the US. The NG crises in US have been expected since the Reagan/Bush administration lifted the ban for use in power generation, that was introduced by the Nixon administration. The Nixon administration did their math correctly and concluded that the NG resources in US were too small for an unlimited us of NG. The ban in combination with actions that led to the largest energy savings in US history, did position US in a situation were they moved towards a control of their energy situation. The achievements was however reversed by the Reagan/Bush administration and their backers from the energy industry. This caused the situation were US known NG reserves only covers 7 years of current use. Combined with a lack of preparation for import of Liquified Natural Gas (LNG), the situation is now creating large difficulties for US industry. It is also a lack of known NG resources in the world, with a R/P (Known Resources/Production) value of only around 60 years. Because of the control equipment/policies for HVAC and the highly automated offices in the US, with the lack of utilization of mass for storage in HVAC, it is a large difference between low and peak demand for electricity. The under utilization of generation capacity during low demand could be used for production of hydrogen for use in the peak demand production. Hydrogen would in this case be used as a short term storage, to even out the demand cycles. If this was combined with changes in the control equipment/policies, it would be a large part of the solution of the peak demands with following capacity problems. It would also ease the current dependency on NG. It is ready for use and makes a lot of sense, why not doing it? The current hydrogen debate start to look as an eternal preparation, followed by no action. It is not natural, but maybe in line with current US trends. It is a lot of satisfaction in doing things also. Often it is better to use what you have, instead of waiting for a bigger one, that maybe does not work as good as the one you have. Timing is very important, it has to work when you need it!!! Hakan Falk Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Hydrogen Hummer ?
Can someone please offer a little extra information on the H2O car? I heard from Paul F. Ostrove (www.hermosahydrogen.com) today that Tai Robinson (www.Intergalactichydrogen.com, [EMAIL PROTECTED]) has just finished modifying a Hummer that runs on five fuels: 1. Diesel 2. Veggie-oil 3. Bio-diesel 4. CNG 5. Hydrogen. Paul also said that I could produce my own hydrogen at home by electrolyzing water! I don't see myself doing this in the near future though. He also said that this homemade fuel is what I would need for a hydrogen internal combustion (engine?). Finally, I don't know what CNG stands for. Thank you, sincerely, Edward Mendoza [EMAIL PROTECTED] 707.537.7392 211 Hayman Court Santa Rosa, CA 95409 Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Hydrogen Hummer ?
Hi, intergalactichydrogen.com does not appear to work. thank you, mango Edward Mendoza wrote: Can someone please offer a little extra information on the H2O car? I heard from Paul F. Ostrove (www.hermosahydrogen.com) today that Tai Robinson (www.Intergalactichydrogen.com, [EMAIL PROTECTED]) has just finished modifying a Hummer that runs on five fuels: 1. Diesel 2. Veggie-oil 3. Bio-diesel 4. CNG 5. Hydrogen. Paul also said that I could produce my own hydrogen at home by electrolyzing water! I don't see myself doing this in the near future though. He also said that this homemade fuel is what I would need for a hydrogen internal combustion (engine?). Finally, I don't know what CNG stands for. Thank you, sincerely, Edward Mendoza [EMAIL PROTECTED] 707.537.7392 211 Hayman Court Santa Rosa, CA 95409 Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Hydrogen Hummer ?
On Sat, 25 Oct 2003 20:28:48 -0700, you wrote: Can someone please offer a little extra information on the H2O car? I heard from Paul F. Ostrove (www.hermosahydrogen.com) today that Tai Robinson (www.Intergalactichydrogen.com, [EMAIL PROTECTED]) has just finished modifying a Hummer that runs on five fuels: 1. Diesel 2. Veggie-oil 3. Bio-diesel 4. CNG 5. Hydrogen. Paul also said that I could produce my own hydrogen at home by electrolyzing water! I don't see myself doing this in the near future though. He also said that this homemade fuel is what I would need for a hydrogen internal combustion (engine?). Finally, I don't know what CNG stands for. Compressed Natural Gas. There are already some CNG vehicles on the road, such as from Honda and Ford. Honda this year I think started offering the ability to compress the gas at home, so you could refuel at home. Since some Fuel Cell efforts focus on Natural Gas and not H2, I wonder if this will lead to CNG fuel cell vehicles you can refuel at home. Don't know the issues in making H2 at home. You could do the electrolysis in any high-school level experiment. Whether you could avoid accumulating too much and control it or avoid an accident burning down your house I don't know. I do think there are some people on this list who have made a point of experimenting. One thing I do know: I just had a discussion with a fire professional and re-visited some issues I'd researched with respect to battery recharging. He recomfirmed what I'd previously been told about the importance of having a way for Hydrogen to ventilate (this comes up with garage recharging because some H2 can out-gas from some batteries, and an improperly ventilated garage-recharging activity is therefore not good, I was told once or twice). He also said there's a large chip-making or similar plant around that has H2 problems all the time. They have to ventilate it or let it out or something, and sometimes it is on fire, but the way it's set up, they have to get rid of it somehow. They get called out there a lot. Interesting. Thank you, sincerely, Edward Mendoza [EMAIL PROTECTED] 707.537.7392 211 Hayman Court Santa Rosa, CA 95409 Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Hydrogen Hummer ?
Edward, The only question you've asked that I can answer is: CNG is the acronym for Compressed Natural Gas. Craig Edward Mendoza wrote: Can someone please offer a little extra information on the H2O car? I heard from Paul F. Ostrove (www.hermosahydrogen.com) today that Tai Robinson (www.Intergalactichydrogen.com, [EMAIL PROTECTED]) has just finished modifying a Hummer that runs on five fuels: 1. Diesel 2. Veggie-oil 3. Bio-diesel 4. CNG 5. Hydrogen. Paul also said that I could produce my own hydrogen at home by electrolyzing water! I don't see myself doing this in the near future though. He also said that this homemade fuel is what I would need for a hydrogen internal combustion (engine?). Finally, I don't know what CNG stands for. Thank you, sincerely, Edward Mendoza [EMAIL PROTECTED] 707.537.7392 211 Hayman Court Santa Rosa, CA 95409 Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT [click here] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Hydrogen as a Fuel for Automobiles
James Slayden wrote: I think that the beauty of the Ovonic system is that it uses process heat to release the H2 from the storage tanks. The heat generated either from an H2 ICE or a FC could also help with this: http://www.ovonics.com/res/2_4_solid_hydrogen/solid_hydrogen.htm Intermetallic hydrides represent a very safe way to store hydrogen. The difficulty with hydrides involves cost, mass and the nagging problem of break down after repeated cycles. The last time I checked, the hydride necessary to give my 2.3 liter Ranger 160 km of range would cost over $20 000--that's WITHOUT the custom heat exchange tank necessary to liberate the gas from the metal. This much hydride would weigh 320 kilos, plus the weight of the tank, plus the weight of the heat exchange medium. . . By the time all the necessary modifications have been made to store hydrogen onboard, then burn it properly in my engine, I could easily convert the truck to a battery electric and not suffer from the efficiency loss involved in electrolysis. Batteries are also considerably cheaper than hydride. Replacing a battery bank every three years or so makes the cost between burning gasoline and swapping batteries a draw, but replacing very expensive, activated hydride is a money wasting proposition! It's so much easier to carry hydrogen around attached to other molecules! robert luis rabello The Edge of Justice Adventure for Your Mind http://www.1stbooks.com/bookview/9782 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Rent DVDs from home. Over 14,500 titles. Free Shipping No Late Fees. Try Netflix for FREE! http://us.click.yahoo.com/mk9osC/hP.FAA/3jkFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Hydrogen as a Fuel for Automobiles
- Original Message - From: murdoch To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2003 4:11 AM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Hydrogen as a Fuel for Automobiles On Tue, 21 Oct 2003 14:40:08 +0200, you wrote: MM, Formation and reformation of hydrogen/whatsoever combinations as storage techniques are obviously the way to go forward. It is however a storage process that in itself require energy and I have not yet seen any substantial discussions of the energy costs for this. Important too is : - The source of Hydrogen: it«s no renewable from the petroleum, but yes from the water (electrolysis). - The way to use it: no to burn it, but to produce water and energy to move vehicles. Regards. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Hydrogen as a Fuel for Automobiles
I think that the beauty of the Ovonic system is that it uses process heat to release the H2 from the storage tanks. The heat generated either from an H2 ICE or a FC could also help with this: http://www.ovonics.com/res/2_4_solid_hydrogen/solid_hydrogen.htm My gut tells me that although pressurized lightweight tanks are fairly safe these days (see NGV lightweight vehicle tanks), there is what I call the Hindenburg perception of gaseous hydrogen storage, even though that was proven a falsity. Liquid H2 storage is too difficult to implement and maintain so that will be weeded out fairly quickly. Another plus of the metal-hydride storage is the higher energy density. That will also be a factor in what form H2 storage will occur in vehicles. James Slayden On Tue, 21 Oct 2003, Hakan Falk wrote: MM, Formation and reformation of hydrogen/whatsoever combinations as storage techniques are obviously the way to go forward. It is however a storage process that in itself require energy and I have not yet seen any substantial discussions of the energy costs for this. The energy has to come from somewhere. We have so many times agreed that hydrogen is a storage technology, if generated from renewable sources, and now we are talking about storage technologies of the storage technology. We need overall comparable figures, viability analysis and costs. We also need to know where the energy should be originating from, because this is an open question that everybody seems to do almost anything to avoid. We have a major energy supply problem ahead of us, not a major energy storage problem. Hakan At 01:51 PM 10/21/2003, you wrote: This article assumes onboard pressurized storage. It should at least mention the future possibility of Liquid H2 (such as BMW has been working on) or metal hydride storage) such as Ovonic seems to have implemented with a modified Prius: http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/031020/dem017_1.htmlhttp://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/ 31020/dem017_1.html As always, I'm not advocating these solutions, just mentioning them. I tend to think a chemical solution (such as carrying H2 in molecules of C2H5OH) will continue to be the solution of choice for many. On Tue, 21 Oct 2003 00:37:59 +0200, you wrote: Although I can see large advantages in hydrogen as storage in stationary power generation and military mobile applications, I see that it is going to take a long time before we see the hydrogen economy for propelling transport in general. Hydrogen as a Fuel for Automobiles http://energy.saving.nu/hydrogen/hydrogenstorage.shtmlhttp://energy.sav ing.nu/hydrogen/hydrogenstorage.shtml Hydrogen as a Fuel for Automobiles By mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Carl Johnson, BA Physics, Univ of Chicago, http://mb-soft.com/public2/index.htmlhttp://mb-soft.com/public2/index.htmlI dex of Public Service Pages. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT click here Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Hydrogen as a Fuel for Automobiles
James, I agree with you on some details, but the big picture remains and maybe you can give input on that, 1. Primary energy sources. We also need to know where the energy should be originating from, because this is an open question that everybody seems to do almost anything to avoid. 2. Lightweight pressurized tanks. At 1500 psi, the volume problem is the same approx. 15 times bigger than a gasoline tank. 3. Oil NG depletion. We have a major energy supply problem ahead of us, not a major energy storage problem. 4. If we rapidly needed a replacement fuel for the existing cars, pure hydrogen is not suitable, because of the flame speed. I have a terrible feeling that we are loosing ourselves in this hydrogen for cars question, which is best taken care of by biofuels in short term. Battery technologies for EVs are improving and beat Hydrogen in volume and at much better efficiency, if we include the fuel cell. Hydrogen have a very long way to go to come even close biodiesel hybrids. This in efficiency, but also in pollution if the primary source is considered. Solar generated hydrogen is cleaner, but then the solar/battery is much more efficient. The problem is not the possible big future development and the answers we are seeking for hydrogen. If we should avoid major crises within the next 10 years, efficient cars and alternative fuels must be delivered yesterday. Not to talk of the general energy efficiency that are needed. The current oil reserves seems to be overstated for political reasons and if it is so, the largest energy crises in human history is just around the corner. Guess which nation that will have the largest problem? If we started to produce solar panels en mass and build Nuclear Power immediately, or even drill as much as we can, the crises is still there. Hakan At 06:53 PM 10/21/2003, you wrote: I think that the beauty of the Ovonic system is that it uses process heat to release the H2 from the storage tanks. The heat generated either from an H2 ICE or a FC could also help with this: http://www.ovonics.com/res/2_4_solid_hydrogen/solid_hydrogen.htmhttp://www.ovonics.com/res/2_4_solid_hydrogen/solid_hydrogen.htm My gut tells me that although pressurized lightweight tanks are fairly safe these days (see NGV lightweight vehicle tanks), there is what I call the Hindenburg perception of gaseous hydrogen storage, even though that was proven a falsity. Liquid H2 storage is too difficult to implement and maintain so that will be weeded out fairly quickly. Another plus of the metal-hydride storage is the higher energy density. That will also be a factor in what form H2 storage will occur in vehicles. James Slayden On Tue, 21 Oct 2003, Hakan Falk wrote: MM, Formation and reformation of hydrogen/whatsoever combinations as storage techniques are obviously the way to go forward. It is however a storage process that in itself require energy and I have not yet seen any substantial discussions of the energy costs for this. The energy has to come from somewhere. We have so many times agreed that hydrogen is a storage technology, if generated from renewable sources, and now we are talking about storage technologies of the storage technology. We need overall comparable figures, viability analysis and costs. We also need to know where the energy should be originating from, because this is an open question that everybody seems to do almost anything to avoid. We have a major energy supply problem ahead of us, not a major energy storage problem. Hakan At 01:51 PM 10/21/2003, you wrote: This article assumes onboard pressurized storage. It should at least mention the future possibility of Liquid H2 (such as BMW has been working on) or metal hydride storage) such as Ovonic seems to have implemented with a modified Prius: http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/031020/dem017_1.htmlhttp://biz.yahoo.com /prnews/031020/dem017_1.htmlhttp://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/ 31020/dem017_1.html As always, I'm not advocating these solutions, just mentioning them. I tend to think a chemical solution (such as carrying H2 in molecules of C2H5OH) will continue to be the solution of choice for many. On Tue, 21 Oct 2003 00:37:59 +0200, you wrote: Although I can see large advantages in hydrogen as storage in stationary power generation and military mobile applications, I see that it is going to take a long time before we see the hydrogen economy for propelling transport in general. Hydrogen as a Fuel for Automobiles http://energy.saving.nu/hydrogen/hydrogenstorage.shtmlhttp://energy. saving.nu/hydrogen/hydrogenstorage.shtmlhttp://energy.sav ing.nu/hydrogen/hydrogenstorage.shtml Hydrogen as a Fuel for Automobiles By mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Carl Johnson, BA Physics, Univ of Chicago,
Re: [biofuel] Hydrogen as a Fuel for Automobiles
On Tue, 21 Oct 2003 14:40:08 +0200, you wrote: MM, Formation and reformation of hydrogen/whatsoever combinations as storage techniques are obviously the way to go forward. It is however a storage process that in itself require energy and I have not yet seen any substantial discussions of the energy costs for this. The energy has to come from somewhere. We have so many times agreed that hydrogen is a storage technology, if generated from renewable sources, and now we are talking about storage technologies of the storage technology. Agreed. However, I guess I meant my way of looking at it to cause folks to sort of think twice. I mean, if we see methanol a liquid fuel worth considering for fuel cells (as I think Mercedes has experimented with for example), we see that it's not necessary to go through all that energy conversion you just make the methanol. Then you can use it in an engine. You have then arguably carried H2 on board and used it, in a way. Ok, so if the methanol is reformed and then used in a fuel cell, there might be some loss of energy, but I'm just pointing out that in a way we already get H2 on board cars, and to some extent it's just a matter of recognizing that fact. We need overall comparable figures, viability analysis and costs. We also need to know where the energy should be originating from, because this is an open question that everybody seems to do almost anything to avoid. We have a major energy supply problem ahead of us, not a major energy storage problem. Hakan Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Hydrogen as a Fuel for Automobiles
MM, I have not excluded methanol or even the more interesting ethanol in fuel cells. It is energy sources and it looks like an interesting development. Then we are back to more reasonable evaluations about efficiency etc., which are bound to come up. I am fully open to the fuel cell technology, which a think is the more tangible development advances in this. I am also for stationary hydrogen use in storage technologies for power generation etc. where large and safe lower pressure storages can be used. Techniques that we are able to do and manage with security. That is exiting, maybe economical and a lot safer. It would for sure be needed. Hakan At 04:11 AM 10/22/2003, you wrote: On Tue, 21 Oct 2003 14:40:08 +0200, you wrote: MM, Formation and reformation of hydrogen/whatsoever combinations as storage techniques are obviously the way to go forward. It is however a storage process that in itself require energy and I have not yet seen any substantial discussions of the energy costs for this. The energy has to come from somewhere. We have so many times agreed that hydrogen is a storage technology, if generated from renewable sources, and now we are talking about storage technologies of the storage technology. Agreed. However, I guess I meant my way of looking at it to cause folks to sort of think twice. I mean, if we see methanol a liquid fuel worth considering for fuel cells (as I think Mercedes has experimented with for example), we see that it's not necessary to go through all that energy conversion you just make the methanol. Then you can use it in an engine. You have then arguably carried H2 on board and used it, in a way. Ok, so if the methanol is reformed and then used in a fuel cell, there might be some loss of energy, but I'm just pointing out that in a way we already get H2 on board cars, and to some extent it's just a matter of recognizing that fact. We need overall comparable figures, viability analysis and costs. We also need to know where the energy should be originating from, because this is an open question that everybody seems to do almost anything to avoid. We have a major energy supply problem ahead of us, not a major energy storage problem. Hakan Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Rent DVDs from home. Over 14,500 titles. Free Shipping No Late Fees. Try Netflix for FREE! http://us.click.yahoo.com/mk9osC/hP.FAA/3jkFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Hydrogen as a Fuel for Automobiles
Although I can see large advantages in hydrogen as storage in stationary power generation and military mobile applications, I see that it is going to take a long time before we see the hydrogen economy for propelling transport in general. Hydrogen as a Fuel for Automobiles http://energy.saving.nu/hydrogen/hydrogenstorage.shtml Hydrogen as a Fuel for Automobiles By mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Carl Johnson, BA Physics, Univ of Chicago, http://mb-soft.com/public2/index.htmlIndex of Public Service Pages. On first glance, hydrogen seems to be the ideal fuel for automobiles and other vehicles. It doesn't seem like one could get any cleaner burning, since hydrogen burns (oxidizes) to form simply water vapor. No pollution! What a seeming advancement over our current internal combustion engines that put thousands of tons of pollutants into the Earth's atmosphere, as well as giving off massive amounts of heat that contribute to global warming, and many other environmental problems. Hydrogen (H2) plus Oxygen (O) makes H2O, water, or actually, water vapor, at higher temperatures. And Hydrogen is actually capable of nearly meeting those high expectations. Environmental Impact There are a couple minor environmental issues. Our Earth's atmosphere is not pure Oxygen, but it is a mixture of gases, with around 4/5 of it being Nitrogen and around 1/5 being Oxygen, and a lot of other gases in small amounts. When Hydrogen (or any other fuel) burns in our atmosphere, a lot of heat is generated (which is sort of the whole point!) When the Nitrogen in the air, it also can oxidize. It can combine with the nearby Oxygen atoms in a variety of ways, such as NO2, NO3, N2O5, and many others. These new compounds are collectively referred to as NOx, and they generally are considered to cause an assortment of health problems in people and other living things. In addition to NOx production, if the device in which the burning occurs has any lubricants, like oil, there are also oxidation products of the Carbon in them, which can contain CO, carbon monoxide. When Hydrogen is burned in a decently designed device, these environmental problems are fairly minor and they are rarely considered to be any great danger. Logistics Hydrogen does have some more significant drawbacks. One of the most difficult to deal with is that it is such a light gas! A pound of Hydrogen contains around 61,000 Btus of latent energy in it, which seems like a lot! For comparison, a pound of regular gasoline only contains around 20,500 Btus in it! Sounds good! However, a pound of Hydrogen is HUGE! At standard atmospheric pressure and temperature, it takes up around 190 cubic feet of space. In contrast, that pound of gasoline only takes up about 1/50 of a cubic foot. We can say this same thing in terms of gallons. A gallon of gasoline contains around 6 pounds, or 125,000 Btus of energy in it. A gallon of hydrogen (gas) only contains around 40 Btus in it. Quite a difference! Instead of a two cubic foot gasoline tank (15 gallons) in your car, you would need a tank more than 3,000 times bigger, over 6,000 cubic feet, for the equivalent Hydrogen! That's a little more than TWO standard semi trailers (8'wide x 8'high x 45' long or 2900 cubic feet each). Pretty big gas tank! Well, that is obviously not going to happen! So, the many ongoing explorations into using Hydrogen as a fuel always involve carrying COMPRESSED Hydrogen in very thick, heavy tanks. If you have ever seen the kinds of tanks used for the Oxygen for a worker's oxyacetylene cutting torch, that's the kind. Such tanks can hold Hydrogen at around 100 times atmospheric pressure, or 1500 PSI, an extremely high pressure. Well, at 100 times atmospheric pressure, the Ideal Gas Law tells us that the Hydrogen would now only take up 2900/100 or 29 cubic feet. That works out to around 60 of those high pressure storage tanks (to match the effective capacity of the 15 gallon gasoline tank.). Each tank is very massive to withstand the very high pressure, and each weighs nearly 100 pounds empty. (And around 1/4 pound more when filled with Hydrogen!) So the normal American car which presently weighs around 2800 pounds would have around an extra 6,000 pounds added, so the vehicle would now weigh more than three times as much as current cars! (This tremendously affects acceleration and other performance, and it would be like that car pulling a huge 6,000 pound trailer behind it. Safety Considerations There are obvious safety considerations in trying to drive a 9,000 pound vehicle down the road. Handling and stopping would be very seriously affected. But there is a bigger concern. Those 60 very high pressure tanks present another complication. If industrial workers ignore proper safety rules when working with a high pressure Oxygen tank, it could fall over. As the hundred pound tank falls over, it quickly develops a lot of momentum. If there should happen to be
Re: [biofuel] Hydrogen Economy-2
Ok Ken, U got ma interest..please send me more details of the solar concentrator. DId U know there is a newsgroup just for solar concentrators? Mike JAMAICA - Original Message - From: Ken Gotberg [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, September 22, 2003 2:47 AM Subject: [biofuel] Hydrogen Economy-2 BTW I have a ~12kW very low cost solar concentrator design if anyone is interested. It can power external heat engines like turbines, Stirling, Thermoacoustic Stirling, steam and you get hot water in the first world and/or sterilized water in the third world, like Indonesia. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Remanufactured Ink Cartridges Refill Kits at MyInks.com for: HP $8-20. Epson $3-9, Canon $5-15, Lexmark $4-17. Free s/h over $50 (US Canada). http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=6351 http://us.click.yahoo.com/0zJuRD/6CvGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Hydrogen Economy-2
Hi
Re: [biofuel] Hydrogen Economy-2
Ken Gotberg wrote: Hi From all the replies given by people who seem to know, H2 is less efficient than a standard internal combustion engine and why bother? There is no net sum gain and even a net sum loss. Ken I think you misunderstand something here. Burning hydrogen in an appropriately converted engine can be MORE efficient than burning gasoline because hydrogen tolerates a very wide flammability range and can successfully run on a very lean mixture. The problems with hydrogen are: How do you produce it in an energetically efficient manner, and how can you store it conveniently and safely? You conclusion, however, is basically correct. For that reason, I've never met anyone who burns hydrogen in their daily driver. robert luis rabello The Edge of Justice Adventure for Your Mind http://www.1stbooks.com/bookview/9782 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Remanufactured Ink Cartridges Refill Kits at MyInks.com for: HP $8-20. Epson $3-9, Canon $5-15, Lexmark $4-17. Free s/h over $50 (US Canada). http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=6351 http://us.click.yahoo.com/0zJuRD/6CvGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Hydrogen Economy-2
Hi All I agree about H2 fuel cell efficiency, but extra electric power generation will be needed just the same. Using a 20-horesepower average figure means hp delivered by the engine and this is usually advertised as ~25%. Better to convert back to Watts (1 hp = 746 Watts ~ 750 W). 20-hp (15kW) delivered means the engine is using 60kW of fuel (60kJoules per sec). All heat engines are limited by the Carnot cycle efficiency =1 LowT/HighT where T is given in Kelvin = Celsius + 273. If you do the math for lets say a steam turbine with a LowT = 100C = 373K and a HighT of 800C = 1073K the maximum possible efficiency is 65%. Theres no way around this with a heat engine! Using higher T differences and cogeneration, I read somewhere that modern power plants can get up to 70% efficiency? Batteries and fuel cells are NOT heat engines and efficiencies can get up to 100% in a perfect world. The worlds not perfect and I guess maybe 90% efficiency for a H2 charge/discharge. A round trip is 90% x 90% ~80%. Assuming 70% efficiency for a modern power plant, this means an overall efficiency of 80%x70% = 56%. This is more than twice as good as a fuel car engine, so yes its a better way to go. Its the extra infrastructure that will cost a lot of money and is there the political will to spend a whole lot of money on this? California would not be a good place to depend on a H2 fuel cell car! Its true that most homes in the US have natural gas and could be exploited for H2. Im not sure how you turn CH4 into 2H2 + C. A natural gas heat engine generator will work to electrolyze water, but it seems like youre going around in circles this way. Why not just convert your gasoline car to natural gas and avoid all the hassle? Pump the home natural gas into the cars gas tank. I advocate an aluminum economy. Aluminum tends to be electrolyzed from ore using hydroelectric power in places like Canada. BTW I have a ~12kW very low cost solar concentrator design if anyone is interested. It can power external heat engines like turbines, Stirling, Thermoacoustic Stirling, steam and you get hot water in the first world and/or sterilized water in the third world, like Indonesia. Ken __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- ReplayTV: CNet Ranked #1 over Tivo! Instant Replay Pause live TV. Special Sale: 50% off! http://us.click.yahoo.com/UUMW7B/.5qGAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Hydrogen Economy
On Sun, 21 Sep 2003 17:15:21 -0600, you wrote: I see solar thermal as easier on the environment. If you want to see what silicon purification and fabrication do to the environment look at the San Jose Ca. water. Also solar thermal is lower tech. I certainly respect this point. A clarification would be that some of my focus on Solar PV is out of the fact that it works so well in conjunction with EVs. You can install a combination of PV and an EV in a home and this cuts through a lot of problems. from then on you have a potentially trouble-free, fuel-dollar-free transportation solution. I like PV for other reasons, but certainly there's no reason to exclude from consideration other good ways of harvesting solar energy, which arguably have excellent advantages over other technologies. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Remanufactured Ink Cartridges Refill Kits at MyInks.com for: HP $8-20. Epson $3-9, Canon $5-15, Lexmark $4-17. Free s/h over $50 (US Canada). http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=6351 http://us.click.yahoo.com/0zJuRD/6CvGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Hydrogen Economy-2
Ken, I have some minor problems to consolidate the efficiency assumptions. My information is that power stations have 30 to 50 and slightly above and from small to large. I also understand that this is the same as for fuel cells 30 to 50 and from small to large. Chargeable batteries have an efficiency in the range of 80%, according to my understanding. On heat engines we have the same understanding. I also understand that Hydrogen molecules are so small that it is much larger containment problems than Natural Gas. It is no compatibility between equipment for Natural gas and Hydrogen. I saw that the fuel tank for one of the hydrogen car prototypes had a cost of $20,000. R/P value for US Natural gas is around 7 years and for the world 60 years. To use NG is even a less sustainable situation than oil. Producer gas from coal would probably be an alternative, but it is very dirty and it is therefore the politicians do not want to talk about it. It is however the realistic and logic outcome of the Bush hydrogen alternative. It could extend the use current energy consumption at low cost with 50 to 100 years. It would also make US less dependent on oil imports. My suspicion is that the much advertised US hydrogen economy will turn out to be a Producer gas (Gengas) economy, based on the larges domestic coal reserves in the world. US will never join the Kyoto agreement. The technical discussions that we now have are more than half a century old or 70 years. Hakan At 11:47 AM 9/22/2003, you wrote: Hi All I agree about H2 fuel cell efficiency, but extra electric power generation will be needed just the same. Using a 20-horesepower average figure means hp delivered by the engine and this is usually advertised as ~25%. Better to convert back to Watts (1 hp = 746 Watts ~ 750 W). 20-hp (15kW) delivered means the engine is using 60kW of fuel (60kJoules per sec). All heat engines are limited by the Carnot cycle efficiency =1 ÐLowT/HighT where T is given in Kelvin = Celsius + 273. If you do the math for letâs say a steam turbine with a LowT = 100C = 373K and a HighT of 800C = 1073K the maximum possible efficiency is 65%. Thereâs no way around this with a heat engine! Using higher T differences and cogeneration, I read somewhere that modern power plants can get up to 70% efficiency? Batteries and fuel cells are NOT heat engines and efficiencies can get up to 100% in a perfect world. The worldâs not perfect and I guess maybe 90% efficiency for a H2 charge/discharge. A round trip is 90% x 90% ~80%. Assuming 70% efficiency for a modern power plant, this means an overall efficiency of 80%x70% = 56%. This is more than twice as good as a fuel car engine, so yes itâs a better way to go. Itâs the extra infrastructure that will cost a lot of money and is there the political will to spend a whole lot of money on this? California would not be a good place to depend on a H2 fuel cell car! Itâs true that most homes in the US have natural gas and could be exploited for H2. Iâm not sure how you turn CH4 into 2H2 + C. A natural gas heat engine generator will work to electrolyze water, but it seems like youâre going around in circles this way. Why not just convert your gasoline car to natural gas and avoid all the hassle? Pump the home natural gas into the carâs ãgasä tank. I advocate an aluminum economy. Aluminum tends to be electrolyzed from ore using hydroelectric power in places like Canada. BTW I have a ~12kW very low cost solar concentrator design if anyone is interested. It can power external heat engines like turbines, Stirling, Thermoacoustic Stirling, steam and you get hot water in the first world and/or sterilized water in the third world, like Indonesia. Ken Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- ReplayTV: Control live television Special Sale: 50% off ReplayTV CNet Ranked #1 over Tivo! http://us.click.yahoo.com/aUMW7B/A6qGAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Hydrogen Economy-2
Hi Hakan Yes, it appears the 70% figure is wrong and I misinterpreted from http://www.pacensys.com/SitingPowerPlants.pdf my apologies. It looks like overall H2 efficiency is less than I figured. Textbooks say that fuel cells are much better than 30-to-50%. Does anyone know for sure what actual efficiencies are in a H2 vehicle? Electrolysis and discharge have over potentials etc, but 50-to-70% losses seem very high to me. Ken --- Hakan Falk [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ken, I have some minor problems to consolidate the efficiency assumptions. My information is that power stations have 30 to 50 and slightly above and from small to large. I also understand that this is the same as for fuel cells 30 to 50 and from small to large. __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Special Sale: 50% off ReplayTV Easily record your favorite shows! CNet Ranked #1 over Tivo! http://us.click.yahoo.com/WUMW7B/85qGAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Hydrogen Economy-2
Hi Ken, Ken wrote : I advocate an aluminum economy. Aluminum tends to be electrolyzed from ore using hydroelectric power in places like Canada. BTW I have a ~12kW very low cost solar concentrator design if anyone is interested. It can power external heat engines like turbines, Stirling, Thermoacoustic Stirling, steam and you get hot water in the first world and/or sterilized water in the third world, like Indonesia. I am very much interested in your solar concentrator design. At this time I try to build a Stirling engine, but also our little company uses lots of hot water, so any good design is more than welcome. Met vriendelijke groeten, Pieter Koole Netherlands The information contained in this message (including attachments) is confidential, and is intended for the addressee(s) only. If you have received this message in error please delete it and notify the originator immediately. The unauthorized use, disclosure, copying or alteration of this message is strictly forbidden. We will not be liable for direct, special, indirect or consequential damages arising from alteration of the contents of this message by a third party or in case of electronic communications as a result of any virus being passed on. - Original Message - From: Ken Gotberg [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, September 22, 2003 11:47 AM Subject: [biofuel] Hydrogen Economy-2 Hi All I agree about H2 fuel cell efficiency, but extra electric power generation will be needed just the same. Using a 20-horesepower average figure means hp delivered by the engine and this is usually advertised as ~25%. Better to convert back to Watts (1 hp = 746 Watts ~ 750 W). 20-hp (15kW) delivered means the engine is using 60kW of fuel (60kJoules per sec). All heat engines are limited by the Carnot cycle efficiency =1 -LowT/HighT where T is given in Kelvin = Celsius + 273. If you do the math for let's say a steam turbine with a LowT = 100C = 373K and a HighT of 800C = 1073K the maximum possible efficiency is 65%. There's no way around this with a heat engine! Using higher T differences and cogeneration, I read somewhere that modern power plants can get up to 70% efficiency? Batteries and fuel cells are NOT heat engines and efficiencies can get up to 100% in a perfect world. The world's not perfect and I guess maybe 90% efficiency for a H2 charge/discharge. A round trip is 90% x 90% ~80%. Assuming 70% efficiency for a modern power plant, this means an overall efficiency of 80%x70% = 56%. This is more than twice as good as a fuel car engine, so yes it's a better way to go. It's the extra infrastructure that will cost a lot of money and is there the political will to spend a whole lot of money on this? California would not be a good place to depend on a H2 fuel cell car! It's true that most homes in the US have natural gas and could be exploited for H2. I'm not sure how you turn CH4 into 2H2 + C. A natural gas heat engine generator will work to electrolyze water, but it seems like you're going around in circles this way. Why not just convert your gasoline car to natural gas and avoid all the hassle? Pump the home natural gas into the car's gas tank. I advocate an aluminum economy. Aluminum tends to be electrolyzed from ore using hydroelectric power in places like Canada. BTW I have a ~12kW very low cost solar concentrator design if anyone is interested. It can power external heat engines like turbines, Stirling, Thermoacoustic Stirling, steam and you get hot water in the first world and/or sterilized water in the third world, like Indonesia. Ken __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- ReplayTV: Control live television Special Sale: 50% off ReplayTV CNet Ranked #1 over Tivo! http://us.click.yahoo.com/aUMW7B/A6qGAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Hydrogen Economy-2
MM, Known Resources/Production or Consumption per year is R/P value. It gives you the number of years the local resources would last with current consumption of energy. It turns out to be the consumption when you look at local level like a country, since the consumption is filled by imports. The way it is used it should really be R/C instead, but it is an old measurement from the days when export/import did not play that much. US have a R/P of 10 years for oil and that means that its local resources would last for 10 years with its local consumption, for NG it is 7 years. Because the limited capacity of transport and distribution for import, US now have a NG crises. New discoveries does change the number, but the estimates of unknown resources varies between 1 to 3 times the known, between the realistic and most overly optimistic estimates. This would give US maximum 20 to 40 year for oil and 14 to 28 years for NG, before their reserves are definitely gone. It is however not a definite stop, since the production would go down gradually. It would however cause many severe crises. Hakan At 01:50 PM 9/22/2003, you wrote: R/P value for US Natural gas is around 7 years and for the world 60 years. Hakan: Could you please provide a definition for R/P value? I think you did this once, but I can't find it, nor any mention of this term on google.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Special Sale: 50% off ReplayTV Easily record your favorite shows! CNet Ranked #1 over Tivo! http://us.click.yahoo.com/WUMW7B/85qGAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Hydrogen Economy-2
On Mon, 22 Sep 2003 15:31:01 +0200, you wrote: MM, Known Resources/Production or Consumption per year is R/P value. It gives you the number of years the local resources would last with current consumption of energy. It turns out to be the consumption when you look at local level like a country, since the consumption is filled by imports. The way it is used it should really be R/C instead, but it is an old measurement from the days when export/import did not play that much. US have a R/P of 10 years for oil and that means that its local resources would last for 10 years with its local consumption, for NG it is 7 years. Because the limited capacity of transport and distribution for import, US now have a NG crises. It isn't clear to me if it's consumption or production. Which is it? There are huge differences in these numbers in the US. For example, our consumption of Oil is roughly 20 million barrels per day (7.3 Billion barrels per year). Our production is roughly 10 million barrels per day (3.65 billion barrels per year, more or less). So, which number are you using in stating this R/P for Oil in the U.S.? That will give me a better idea of what you're saying. New discoveries does change the number, but the estimates of unknown resources varies between 1 to 3 times the known, between the realistic and most overly optimistic estimates. This would give US maximum 20 to 40 year for oil and 14 to 28 years for NG, before their reserves are definitely gone. It is however not a definite stop, since the production would go down gradually. It would however cause many severe crises. Hakan At 01:50 PM 9/22/2003, you wrote: R/P value for US Natural gas is around 7 years and for the world 60 years. Hakan: Could you please provide a definition for R/P value? I think you did this once, but I can't find it, nor any mention of this term on google.com Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Remanufactured Ink Cartridges Refill Kits at MyInks.com for: HP $8-20. Epson $3-9, Canon $5-15, Lexmark $4-17. Free s/h over $50 (US Canada). http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=6351 http://us.click.yahoo.com/0zJuRD/6CvGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Hydrogen Economy
I'm not that old Hakan, but I still hear it echoing. Energy will never get that cheap unless there is an abundance like you say, and then only if their is competition. (both) Hakan Falk wrote: Hi Martin, I did not think that you were that old, but yes in the beginning of the 1960's and for nuclear power. Hakan At 10:53 PM 9/21/2003, you wrote: I'm sorry for being nostalgic, but haven't we heard about electricity being too cheap to meter? robert luis rabello wrote: -- -- Martin Klingensmith http://infoarchive.net/ http://nnytech.net/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Special Sale: 50% off ReplayTV Easily record your favorite shows! CNet Ranked #1 over Tivo! http://us.click.yahoo.com/WUMW7B/85qGAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Hydrogen Economy
On Mon, 22 Sep 2003 12:34:15 -0400, you wrote: I'm not that old Hakan, but I still hear it echoing. Energy will never get that cheap unless there is an abundance like you say, and then only if their is competition. (both) The abundance could I think only take place in a world or national or local economy where demand was sensitive to price and became more modest. One could go through a period of such cheapness, although I think eventually demand, seeing that price is so cheap, might rise to bring it up. You could argue that the first one hundred years or more of the electric power industry has had the price of electricity reflect in some ways an under-pricing because in some cases payment for negative externalities has been put off to others, or put off to the future. Another thought that keeps occurring to me is that providing energy, or any other sustainable resource, to a given population would be easier if the population were not growing by leaps and bounds. I think some progress has been made in birth control technologies and practices over the last few decades, but I hope that more progress is made, giving parents better control of if and when to choose to have children. This is in part an economic decision (for some). Ultimately, if population on the globe were to grow with no end in sight then it's not possible, in my view, to define any sustainable solutions to provide basic needs to that population. Hakan Falk wrote: Hi Martin, I did not think that you were that old, but yes in the beginning of the 1960's and for nuclear power. Hakan At 10:53 PM 9/21/2003, you wrote: I'm sorry for being nostalgic, but haven't we heard about electricity being too cheap to meter? robert luis rabello wrote: -- Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- ReplayTV: Control live television Special Sale: 50% off ReplayTV CNet Ranked #1 over Tivo! http://us.click.yahoo.com/aUMW7B/A6qGAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Hydrogen Economy
Hi all, I would like to try some experiments on hydrogen. First : What is the best way to make it out of water ? What electrodes should I use, so they don't go in solution ? What electrolite should I use ? Is there a link where I can find some information for beginners on this item ? By the way : I have been driving over 100.000 km on BD now, without any problems at all. Just great! Met vriendelijke groeten, Pieter Koole Netherlands The information contained in this message (including attachments) is confidential, and is intended for the addressee(s) only. If you have received this message in error please delete it and notify the originator immediately. The unauthorized use, disclosure, copying or alteration of this message is strictly forbidden. We will not be liable for direct, special, indirect or consequential damages arising from alteration of the contents of this message by a third party or in case of electronic communications as a result of any virus being passed on. - Original Message - From: robert luis rabello [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, September 21, 2003 2:31 AM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Hydrogen Economy Hakan Falk wrote: I would agree with you, if it was higher R/P values for natural gas. With the current 7 years for US, the demands of independence of import becomes an even a more impossible dream. I do not have to describe the current US situation on NG again. Hydrogen from NG achieve nothing and the best bet is coal/nuclear at the end. It is already feverish activities in US to build a lot more nuclear power stations. No serious advocate of a hydrogen economy suggests that using a single source of hydrogen production should be pursued. The people who are pushing hard for hydrogen would like to see a diversity of resources, ranging from reforming natural gas and coal, to methanogenesis of garbage, pyrolysis of biomass, algal production AND electrolysis in situations that favor it, whether this is nuclear, wind or any of the options explained below. Using mass produced point focus solar collectors, whether stirling or photovoltaic, WILL bring the price of electricity down low enough to make hydrogen viable as an energy carrier. Some people believe that concentrated photovoltaics will eventually bring the price of electricity down to less than 1 cent per kilowatt hour, and IF this can be attained, a kilogram of hydrogen would cost less than what a current gallon of gasoline is running in the United States--even if it the hydrogen was taxed at the same level that gasoline is taxed. http://www.mokindustries.com/pages/762107/index.htm http://www.industrialsolartech.com/rmt.html http://www.solarsystems.com.au/ Hydrogen production at home? That will make Osama bin Laden happy. I've made hydrogen at home. No terrorist has ever approached me about this! robert luis rabello The Edge of Justice Adventure for Your Mind http://www.1stbooks.com/bookview/9782 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- ReplayTV: CNet Ranked #1 over Tivo! Instant Replay Pause live TV. Special Sale: 50% off! http://us.click.yahoo.com/UUMW7B/.5qGAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Hydrogen Economy
Robert, You are right, it is potential in hydrogen, as it is in many things. Fusion and other technologies are very interesting. I think that if you get mass produced PV with 30% efficiency and at 1 cent/kWh, it will be a fantastic breakthrough and the largest immediate benefit would be in further development of existing EV and especially NEV technologies, they are ready for use. This is around a 90% reduction of what we pay today and would have substantial effects on the energy companies revenue, employment and GDP. Do you think that this is supported by the corporations and government? I did not allude to that terrorists would contact you, I was suggested that large home production of Hydrogen would put the terrorists out of work. Have you made larger and usable amounts of Hydrogen at home, enough of maintaining one or two cars, and are you seriously suggesting this as a suitable occupation in millions of homes? US is now spending enormous amounts of money on Homeland security, securing oil deliveries and fighting perceived and real threats of terrorist attacks. Have you thought about the tens of thousand of lives that could be saved yearly by serious investments this money in, - Clean air - Road safety - Better nutrition habits - Crime prevention Under the current administration the US society developed a very serious and violent them against us attitude and it is no limits in the damages that this can cause. I have large difficulties in finding a positive development in the new neo-conservative world. If you seriously look at energy issues, can you find any real and immediate progress in the US energy plan? Hakan At 02:31 AM 9/21/2003, you wrote: Hakan Falk wrote: I would agree with you, if it was higher R/P values for natural gas. With the current 7 years for US, the demands of independence of import becomes an even a more impossible dream. I do not have to describe the current US situation on NG again. Hydrogen from NG achieve nothing and the best bet is coal/nuclear at the end. It is already feverish activities in US to build a lot more nuclear power stations. No serious advocate of a hydrogen economy suggests that using a single source of hydrogen production should be pursued. The people who are pushing hard for hydrogen would like to see a diversity of resources, ranging from reforming natural gas and coal, to methanogenesis of garbage, pyrolysis of biomass, algal production AND electrolysis in situations that favor it, whether this is nuclear, wind or any of the options explained below. Using mass produced point focus solar collectors, whether stirling or photovoltaic, WILL bring the price of electricity down low enough to make hydrogen viable as an energy carrier. Some people believe that concentrated photovoltaics will eventually bring the price of electricity down to less than 1 cent per kilowatt hour, and IF this can be attained, a kilogram of hydrogen would cost less than what a current gallon of gasoline is running in the United States--even if it the hydrogen was taxed at the same level that gasoline is taxed. http://www.mokindustries.com/pages/762107/index.htmhttp://www.mokindustries.com/pages/762107/index.htm http://www.industrialsolartech.com/rmt.html http://www.solarsystems.com.au/http://www.solarsystems.com.au/ Hydrogen production at home? That will make Osama bin Laden happy. I've made hydrogen at home. No terrorist has ever approached me about this! robert luis rabello The Edge of Justice Adventure for Your Mind http://www.1stbooks.com/bookview/9782http://www.1stbooks.com/bookview/9782 Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- ReplayTV: Control live television Special Sale: 50% off ReplayTV CNet Ranked #1 over Tivo! http://us.click.yahoo.com/aUMW7B/A6qGAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Hydrogen Economy
Hakan Falk wrote: Robert, You are right, it is potential in hydrogen, as it is in many things. Fusion and other technologies are very interesting. I think that if you get mass produced PV with 30% efficiency and at 1 cent/kWh, it will be a fantastic breakthrough and the largest immediate benefit would be in further development of existing EV and especially NEV technologies, they are ready for use. You are hitting on an important principle. If electricity could be produced at such a price, would it not be wiser, from an efficiency perspective, to use that power for EV's instead? This is around a 90% reduction of what we pay today and would have substantial effects on the energy companies revenue, employment and GDP. Do you think that this is supported by the corporations and government? This is a hard question to answer, because corporations exist to make money, and governments need tax revenue. If money can be made producing electricity for such a price, I'm sure it would be done! I did not allude to that terrorists would contact you, I was suggested that large home production of Hydrogen would put the terrorists out of work. Have you made larger and usable amounts of Hydrogen at home, enough of maintaining one or two cars, and are you seriously suggesting this as a suitable occupation in millions of homes? My remarks were a bit facetious, I admit! Safety issues with hydrogen must be addressed if this is to be done on a large scale. Home refueling appliances have been developed to deal with safety concerns in the same manner that is currently done with natural gas home refueling equipment. On a large scale, however, I think that if hydrogen is going to get done, it will NOT be done at home. Reformers and hydride tanks installed in gasoline service stations will ensure that energy profits remain firmly in the hands of the big energy companies. To answer your question directly, I have never made a sufficient quantity of hydrogen to run a vehicle--although I think that doing so would be well within my capability if I had the resources at my disposal. US is now spending enormous amounts of money on Homeland security, securing oil deliveries and fighting perceived and real threats of terrorist attacks. Have you thought about the tens of thousand of lives that could be saved yearly by serious investments this money in, - Clean air - Road safety - Better nutrition habits - Crime prevention Absolutely! Part of the problem, however, is that my government doesn't actually HAVE any of the money it wants for Iraq and Afghanistan. Deficit spending will come back to haunt us. . . Under the current administration the US society developed a very serious and violent them against us attitude and it is no limits in the damages that this can cause. I have large difficulties in finding a positive development in the new neo-conservative world. Sadly, the political party to which I belong has been hijacked by extremists. We're witnessing the fruit of this in completely irresponsible fiscal policy, increased militarization and the strong surge of anti-American sentiment all over the world. What's worse, is that my countrymen seem completely oblivious to the trend--and many of them simply don't care what the rest of the world thinks! If you seriously look at energy issues, can you find any real and immediate progress in the US energy plan? That depends upon point of view. Chevron / Texaco, Esso, Shell and the rest of the oil companies are grinning with glee! There was a feature on NPR the other day concerning gas and oil exploration on federal lands in Montana. http://www.npr.org/features/feature.php?wfId=1436104 It seems the current administration is determined to solve the energy problem by drilling. You and I are both aware of the r / p problem with natural gas in North America. Anything concerning energy that comes out of the current administration seems more short sighted than the policies implemented by any previous presidential administration I can remember. The hydrogen economy idea has been kidnapped by this administration. If America was serious about solar hydrogen, we would have been investing in the infrastructure to develop it decades ago, and we'd be well on our way by now. It would have been cheaper to manufacture and install point focus stirling and p.v. gen sets on federal land in order to promote energy independence than it was to invade Iraq. This would have created jobs in the United States, increased wealth and enabled our foreign policy to be less driven by the insatiable need to expropriate everyone else's oil and gas resources. Nobody seems willing to take the real solar hydrogen advocates very seriously. Mr. Bush's plan for hydrogen is nothing more than a way of undercutting progress for increased efficiency while helping his friends in the oil and gas sector make a lot more money.
Re: [biofuel] Hydrogen Economy
I'm sorry for being nostalgic, but haven't we heard about electricity being too cheap to meter? robert luis rabello wrote: Hakan Falk wrote: I would agree with you, if it was higher R/P values for natural gas. With the current 7 years for US, the demands of independence of import becomes an even a more impossible dream. I do not have to describe the current US situation on NG again. Hydrogen from NG achieve nothing and the best bet is coal/nuclear at the end. It is already feverish activities in US to build a lot more nuclear power stations. No serious advocate of a hydrogen economy suggests that using a single source of hydrogen production should be pursued. The people who are pushing hard for hydrogen would like to see a diversity of resources, ranging from reforming natural gas and coal, to methanogenesis of garbage, pyrolysis of biomass, algal production AND electrolysis in situations that favor it, whether this is nuclear, wind or any of the options explained below. Using mass produced point focus solar collectors, whether stirling or photovoltaic, WILL bring the price of electricity down low enough to make hydrogen viable as an energy carrier. Some people believe that concentrated photovoltaics will eventually bring the price of electricity down to less than 1 cent per kilowatt hour, and IF this can be attained, a kilogram of hydrogen would cost less than what a current gallon of gasoline is running in the United States--even if it the hydrogen was taxed at the same level that gasoline is taxed. http://www.mokindustries.com/pages/762107/index.htm http://www.industrialsolartech.com/rmt.html http://www.solarsystems.com.au/ -- -- Martin Klingensmith http://infoarchive.net/ http://nnytech.net/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Special Sale: 50% off ReplayTV Easily record your favorite shows! CNet Ranked #1 over Tivo! http://us.click.yahoo.com/WUMW7B/85qGAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Hydrogen Economy
Hi Martin, I did not think that you were that old, but yes in the beginning of the 1960's and for nuclear power. Hakan At 10:53 PM 9/21/2003, you wrote: I'm sorry for being nostalgic, but haven't we heard about electricity being too cheap to meter? robert luis rabello wrote: Hakan Falk wrote: I would agree with you, if it was higher R/P values for natural gas. With the current 7 years for US, the demands of independence of import becomes an even a more impossible dream. I do not have to describe the current US situation on NG again. Hydrogen from NG achieve nothing and the best bet is coal/nuclear at the end. It is already feverish activities in US to build a lot more nuclear power stations. No serious advocate of a hydrogen economy suggests that using a single source of hydrogen production should be pursued. The people who are pushing hard for hydrogen would like to see a diversity of resources, ranging from reforming natural gas and coal, to methanogenesis of garbage, pyrolysis of biomass, algal production AND electrolysis in situations that favor it, whether this is nuclear, wind or any of the options explained below. Using mass produced point focus solar collectors, whether stirling or photovoltaic, WILL bring the price of electricity down low enough to make hydrogen viable as an energy carrier. Some people believe that concentrated photovoltaics will eventually bring the price of electricity down to less than 1 cent per kilowatt hour, and IF this can be attained, a kilogram of hydrogen would cost less than what a current gallon of gasoline is running in the United States--even if it the hydrogen was taxed at the same level that gasoline is taxed. http://www.mokindustries.com/pages/762107/index.htmhttp://www.mokindustries.com/pages/762107/index.htm http://www.industrialsolartech.com/rmt.html http://www.solarsystems.com.au/http://www.solarsystems.com.au/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Special Sale: 50% off ReplayTV Easily record your favorite shows! CNet Ranked #1 over Tivo! http://us.click.yahoo.com/WUMW7B/85qGAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
