Re: [Biofuel] Glycerin as an Emulsifier (was GlycerineSettling Time)

[Thomas Kelly]

Hi Joe,

>If the answers to questions 2 and 3 are yes then it would explain a lot.

I think so.

>Then the answer to question one could be that although the BD did not >pass 
>the QT if it was settled long enough that there is no glycerol it would >be 
>consistent with the emergent theory. No? 

Let us be clear re:  "The emergent theory".

Is it : Very small amounts of unreacted Mono- and Di- Glycerides combined with 
unsettled Glycerin Mix will produce emulsions, but the same amount of the 
Glycerides or the Glycerin, alone, do not? (There is an 
additive/multiplicative/? effect when both are present)

I think the results seem to indicate this.

Or is the "emergent theory": 
The Glycerin Mix settles more slowly from the product of incomplete reactions?
Consistent, yes,  but not evidence for the hypothesis.

If it turns out to be the case it would be a good example of the old 
"double-whammy" effect. 
Incomplete reactions contribute the unreacted Mono- and Di -Glycerides needed 
for the emulsion which in turn slow the settling of the Glycerin Mix which also 
contributes to the problem.

The significance of whatever emerges may be dispelling a misconception.
 I know of people who view "No problems with the wash" as a sign that they 
achieved complete reactions. I've been told: "I would have gotten emulsions if 
I had any unreacted oil." 
 A buddy of mine recommends letting the BD settle for a few days   "a 
week if you can." "It seems to take care of any problems."   ??   
 I tell him:  Do a QT try dissolving 25 ml of the BD in 225 ml of methanol.
(12.5 ml BD in 112.5 ml methanol).
 I don't know why homebrewers resist QT-ing their fuel.

   Good Day to You,
 Tom

P.S.  I think we will eventually get to the bottom of the effect of glycerides 
on settling time. I've stocked up on BD for my car (passed QT) in anticipation 
of a push to make heating BD. I'll be able to get settling times on quite a few 
batches of "poor quality" BD, but won't be running any 'good quality" batches, 
for comparison, for a few weeks.



  - Original Message ----- 
  From: Joe Street 
  To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org 
  Sent: Monday, August 13, 2007 4:41 PM
  Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Glycerin as an Emulsifier (was GlycerineSettling Time)


  Hi Tom;

  If the answers to questions 2 and 3 are yes then it would explain a lot.  
Then the anwer to question one could be that although the BD did not pass the 
QT if it was settled long enough that there is no glycerol it would be 
consistent with the emergent theory. No? 


  Joe

  Thomas Kelly wrote:

On Friday 8/10, I noted that:

>II. Glycerin Cocktail:   Time to 
Separate (wash test)
>   good quality BD + water + glycerin cocktail   > 2 hours* 
>   poor quality BD  + water + glycerin cocktail   > 2 hours*

It almost 2 days for the "good quality" BD to separate out. There was a 
very clear soap layer between the BD layer and the water layer.

It's almost three days now and the "poor quality" BD still has an emulsion 
layer. More than half of the BD layer is emulsion. 

My thoughts:
1. Glycerin, itself, separated from the "cocktail", is not an effective 
emulsifier
2. Presence of just the glycerin "cocktail" lengthens the time needed to  
separate water from BD
3. The glycerin cocktail in combination with even small amounts of 
unreacted 
Mono- and Di- Glycerides forms emulsions during wash.

***Keep in mind that my "poor quality BD" failed the Methanol Solubility 
Test (the "Warnqvist" Quality Test), in that the resulting mix was cloudy, and 
given time, an observable, but difficult to measure, amount of residue 
(unreacted glycerides) dropped out. There were not globs of residue. This was 
not real bad BD. It is used in my home heating system.

Questions/Comments:
1. Unreacted Mono- and Di- Glycerides have a reputation as being very 
effective emulsifiers. They are present in the BD that I make to heat my house. 
Why don't they form emulsions when I stir wash this BD?

2. If glycerin cocktail (unsplit) is present, the same levels of Mono- and 
Di- Glycerides form emulsions, when they are only shaken . 
Does this represent a cumulative or synergistic effect?

 The cumulative/synergistic effect of glycerin cocktail and unreacted 
glycerides on emulsion formation would explain a couple of observations:
a. Incomplete reactions coupled with short (6 - 8 hour) settling times 
often produce emulsions in the wash. Longer settling times 2 days or more >
no emulsions. The glycerin has settled out
b. After breaking emulsions (1st and eve

Re: [Biofuel] Glycerin as an Emulsifier (was Glycerine Settling Time)

[Joe Street]

Hi Tom;

If the answers to questions 2 and 3 are yes then it would explain a 
lot.  Then the anwer to question one could be that although the BD did 
not pass the QT if it was settled long enough that there is no glycerol 
it would be consistent with the emergent theory. No?



Joe

Thomas Kelly wrote:


On Friday 8/10, I noted that:
 
>II. Glycerin Cocktail:   Time to 
Separate (wash test)

>   good quality BD + water + glycerin cocktail   > 2 hours*
>   poor quality BD  + water + glycerin cocktail   > 2 hours*
 
It almost 2 days for the "good quality" BD to separate out. There was 
a very clear soap layer between the BD layer and the water layer.
 
It's almost three days now and the "poor quality" BD still has an 
emulsion layer. More than half of the BD layer is emulsion.
 
My thoughts:
1. Glycerin, itself, separated from the "cocktail", is not an 
effective emulsifier
2. Presence of just the glycerin "cocktail" lengthens the time needed to 
separate water from BD
3. The glycerin cocktail in combination with even small amounts of 
unreacted

Mono- and Di- Glycerides forms emulsions during wash.
 
***Keep in mind that my "poor quality BD" failed the Methanol 
Solubility Test (the "Warnqvist" Quality Test), in that the resulting 
mix was cloudy, and given time, an observable, but difficult to 
measure, amount of residue (unreacted glycerides) dropped out. There 
were not globs of residue. This was not real bad BD. It is used in my 
home heating system.
 
Questions/Comments:
1. Unreacted Mono- and Di- Glycerides have a reputation as being very 
effective emulsifiers. They are present in the BD that I make to heat 
my house. Why don't they form emulsions when I stir wash this BD?
 
2. If glycerin cocktail (unsplit) is present, the same levels of Mono- 
and Di- Glycerides form emulsions, when they are only shaken .

Does this represent a cumulative or synergistic effect?
 
 The cumulative/synergistic effect of glycerin cocktail and 
unreacted glycerides on emulsion formation would explain a couple of 
observations:
a. Incomplete reactions coupled with short (6 - 8 hour) settling times 
often produce emulsions in the wash. Longer settling times 2 days or 
more >

no emulsions. The glycerin has settled out
b. After breaking emulsions (1st and even 2nd wash), subsequent washes 
go well w/o emulsions forming. The Mono- and Di-Glycerides are still 
present, but the components of the glycerin cocktail have been, for 
the most part washed out.
 
3. Does the glycerin cocktail settle out of incomplete reactions more 
slowly than from complete reactions?
 
Tom
 
 
- Original Message -


*From:* Thomas Kelly <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
*To:* biofuel <mailto:Biofuel@sustainablelists.org>
*Sent:* Friday, August 10, 2007 2:46 PM
*Subject:* [Biofuel] Glycerin as an Emulsifier (was Glycerine
Settling Time)

Andres, Jan, Joe, Keith, and anyone else who has been following
the saga,
 
 It would seem that glycerine, itself, is not an effective

emulsifier.
 
I've spent the morning "experimenting" in the kitchen. I did "Wash

Tests" on BD that passed the QT and BD that failed the QT. I
tested one group with glycerine split from the cocktail (using
Phosphoric Acid) and another group with unsplit Glycerin "cocktail".
 
Volumes used:

Biodiesel 150 ml
Water 150 ml
Glycerin (split and unsplit)  4 ml
 
Temp:  70F  (~22C)
 
I. Glycerin split from the cocktail (used Phosphoric Acid):

   Controls:   Time for
clear separation (min)
   good quality BD +  water  1 - 2
   poor quality BD  +  water  3 - 4
 
   Experimental:

   good quality BD + water + glycerine (split) less than 5
   poor quality BD  + water + glycerine (split) less than 5
 
II Glycerin Cocktail:

   good quality BD + water + glycerine cocktail   > 2 hours*
   poor quality BD  + water + glycerine cocktail   > 2 hours*
 
* At 2 hours there is a thin layer of BD (1 - 2 mm) The rest

appears to be an emulsion.
 
 Andres and Jan, you are correct. Glycerin, itself, did

little to retard separation of BD and water.
 
 Something in the "cocktail" does seem to be an emulsifier.

(The soaps??)
 
Some questions remain:

1. The BD that failed the QT (incomplete reaction) was obtained
from a tank that feeds my heating system. It contains unreacted
glycerides, but does not produce an emulsion when shaken in water,
nor did it produce emulsions when it was stir-washed. Why no

Re: [Biofuel] Glycerin as an Emulsifier (was Glycerine Settling Time)

[Thomas Kelly]

On Friday 8/10, I noted that:

>II. Glycerin Cocktail:   Time to Separate 
>(wash test)
>   good quality BD + water + glycerin cocktail   > 2 hours* 
>   poor quality BD  + water + glycerin cocktail   > 2 hours*

It almost 2 days for the "good quality" BD to separate out. There was a very 
clear soap layer between the BD layer and the water layer.

It's almost three days now and the "poor quality" BD still has an emulsion 
layer. More than half of the BD layer is emulsion. 

My thoughts:
1. Glycerin, itself, separated from the "cocktail", is not an effective 
emulsifier
2. Presence of just the glycerin "cocktail" lengthens the time needed to  
separate water from BD
3. The glycerin cocktail in combination with even small amounts of unreacted 
Mono- and Di- Glycerides forms emulsions during wash.

***Keep in mind that my "poor quality BD" failed the Methanol Solubility Test 
(the "Warnqvist" Quality Test), in that the resulting mix was cloudy, and given 
time, an observable, but difficult to measure, amount of residue (unreacted 
glycerides) dropped out. There were not globs of residue. This was not real bad 
BD. It is used in my home heating system.

Questions/Comments:
1. Unreacted Mono- and Di- Glycerides have a reputation as being very effective 
emulsifiers. They are present in the BD that I make to heat my house. Why don't 
they form emulsions when I stir wash this BD?

2. If glycerin cocktail (unsplit) is present, the same levels of Mono- and Di- 
Glycerides form emulsions, when they are only shaken . 
Does this represent a cumulative or synergistic effect?

 The cumulative/synergistic effect of glycerin cocktail and unreacted 
glycerides on emulsion formation would explain a couple of observations:
a. Incomplete reactions coupled with short (6 - 8 hour) settling times often 
produce emulsions in the wash. Longer settling times 2 days or more >
no emulsions. The glycerin has settled out
b. After breaking emulsions (1st and even 2nd wash), subsequent washes go well 
w/o emulsions forming. The Mono- and Di-Glycerides are still present, but the 
components of the glycerin cocktail have been, for the most part washed out.

3. Does the glycerin cocktail settle out of incomplete reactions more slowly 
than from complete reactions?

Tom


- Original Message - 
  From: Thomas Kelly 
  To: biofuel 
  Sent: Friday, August 10, 2007 2:46 PM
  Subject: [Biofuel] Glycerin as an Emulsifier (was Glycerine Settling Time)


  Andres, Jan, Joe, Keith, and anyone else who has been following the saga,

   It would seem that glycerine, itself, is not an effective emulsifier. 

  I've spent the morning "experimenting" in the kitchen. I did "Wash Tests" on 
BD that passed the QT and BD that failed the QT. I tested one group with 
glycerine split from the cocktail (using Phosphoric Acid) and another group 
with unsplit Glycerin "cocktail".

  Volumes used:
  Biodiesel 150 ml
  Water 150 ml
  Glycerin (split and unsplit)  4 ml

  Temp:  70F  (~22C)

  I. Glycerin split from the cocktail (used Phosphoric Acid):
 Controls:   Time for clear 
separation (min)
 good quality BD +  water  1 - 2
 poor quality BD  +  water  3 - 4

 Experimental:
 good quality BD + water + glycerine (split) less than 5
 poor quality BD  + water + glycerine (split) less than 5

  II Glycerin Cocktail:
 good quality BD + water + glycerine cocktail   > 2 hours* 
 poor quality BD  + water + glycerine cocktail   > 2 hours*

  * At 2 hours there is a thin layer of BD (1 - 2 mm) The rest appears to be an 
emulsion.

   Andres and Jan, you are correct. Glycerin, itself, did little to 
retard separation of BD and water.

   Something in the "cocktail" does seem to be an emulsifier. (The soaps??)

  Some questions remain:
  1. The BD that failed the QT (incomplete reaction) was obtained from a tank 
that feeds my heating system. It contains unreacted glycerides, but does not 
produce an emulsion when shaken in water, nor did it produce emulsions when it 
was stir-washed. Why not?
  2. At Joe Street's suggestion I took a sample of BD that had settled for 
about 10 hours. Twelve hours later, more "glycerin" had settled out. Today, 
still another 24 hours later, even more has settled out. Could this small 
amount of unsplit glycerine (with associated soaps) be the cause of the 
emulsions I got when I started making BD? It would explain why settling for a 
day or more seems to elimi

Re: [Biofuel] Glycerin as an Emulsifier (was Glycerine Settling Time)

[Joe Street]

Thanks a lot Tom for all that work in a short time.  You have really 
shed some light on this discussion.  Jumping to your questions at the 
end, it seems clear then that Jan and Andres were right on and it must 
be the soap and mono-diglycerides etc rather than the glycerine itself 
which is the culprit..  It also seems to confirm or at least not in 
conflict with the theory that glycerin settles more slowly from 
incomplete reactions.  I have never done anything with straight glycerol 
just the cocktail but it does contain soap al lots of other things.  
Small amounts of it have a large impact and it appears that incomplete 
reactions result in a significant amount of it remaining in the fuel 
after a prolonged period.  I normally allow about 12 hours for settling 
(at least) and when the reaction is good an agressive pump wash is no 
problem.  One of the aims of my project was to reduce cycle time so I 
really don't want to wait 24 or more hours because sometimes time is not 
free as Keith had put it. 

Was going to add more but time's up and the door to my cage is OPEN!  
Have a good weekend


Joe

Thomas Kelly wrote:


Andres, Jan, Joe, Keith, and anyone else who has been following the saga,
 
 It would seem that glycerine, itself, is not an effective 
emulsifier.
 
I've spent the morning "experimenting" in the kitchen. I did "Wash 
Tests" on BD that passed the QT and BD that failed the QT. I tested 
one group with glycerine split from the cocktail (using Phosphoric 
Acid) and another group with unsplit Glycerin "cocktail".
 
Volumes used:

Biodiesel 150 ml
Water 150 ml
Glycerin (split and unsplit)  4 ml
 
Temp:  70F  (~22C)
 
I. Glycerin split from the cocktail (used Phosphoric Acid):
   Controls:   Time for clear 
separation (min)

   good quality BD +  water  1 - 2
   poor quality BD  +  water  3 - 4
 
   Experimental:

   good quality BD + water + glycerine (split) less than 5
   poor quality BD  + water + glycerine (split) less than 5
 
II Glycerin Cocktail:

   good quality BD + water + glycerine cocktail   > 2 hours*
   poor quality BD  + water + glycerine cocktail   > 2 hours*
 
* At 2 hours there is a thin layer of BD (1 - 2 mm) The rest appears 
to be an emulsion.
 
 Andres and Jan, you are correct. Glycerin, itself, did little 
to retard separation of BD and water.
 
 Something in the "cocktail" does seem to be an emulsifier. (The 
soaps??)
 
Some questions remain:
1. The BD that failed the QT (incomplete reaction) was obtained from a 
tank that feeds my heating system. It contains unreacted glycerides, 
but does not produce an emulsion when shaken in water, nor did it 
produce emulsions when it was stir-washed. Why not?
2. At Joe Street's suggestion I took a sample of BD that had settled 
for about 10 hours. Twelve hours later, more "glycerin" had settled 
out. Today, still another 24 hours later, even more has settled out. 
Could this small amount of unsplit glycerine (with associated soaps) 
be the cause of the emulsions I got when I started making BD? It would 
explain why settling for a day or more seems to eliminate the problem.
3. Does the glycerine mix (or soaps) settle out more slowly in BD from 
incomplete reactions?
 
 Tom
 
 




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[Biofuel] Glycerin as an Emulsifier (was Glycerine Settling Time)

[Thomas Kelly]

Andres, Jan, Joe, Keith, and anyone else who has been following the saga,

 It would seem that glycerine, itself, is not an effective emulsifier. 

I've spent the morning "experimenting" in the kitchen. I did "Wash Tests" on BD 
that passed the QT and BD that failed the QT. I tested one group with glycerine 
split from the cocktail (using Phosphoric Acid) and another group with unsplit 
Glycerin "cocktail".

Volumes used:
Biodiesel 150 ml
Water 150 ml
Glycerin (split and unsplit)  4 ml

Temp:  70F  (~22C)

I. Glycerin split from the cocktail (used Phosphoric Acid):
   Controls:   Time for clear 
separation (min)
   good quality BD +  water  1 - 2
   poor quality BD  +  water  3 - 4

   Experimental:
   good quality BD + water + glycerine (split) less than 5
   poor quality BD  + water + glycerine (split) less than 5

II Glycerin Cocktail:
   good quality BD + water + glycerine cocktail   > 2 hours*
   poor quality BD  + water + glycerine cocktail   > 2 hours*

* At 2 hours there is a thin layer of BD (1 - 2 mm) The rest appears to be an 
emulsion.

 Andres and Jan, you are correct. Glycerin, itself, did little to 
retard separation of BD and water.

 Something in the "cocktail" does seem to be an emulsifier. (The soaps??)

Some questions remain:
1. The BD that failed the QT (incomplete reaction) was obtained from a tank 
that feeds my heating system. It contains unreacted glycerides, but does not 
produce an emulsion when shaken in water, nor did it produce emulsions when it 
was stir-washed. Why not?
2. At Joe Street's suggestion I took a sample of BD that had settled for about 
10 hours. Twelve hours later, more "glycerin" had settled out. Today, still 
another 24 hours later, even more has settled out. Could this small amount of 
unsplit glycerine (with associated soaps) be the cause of the emulsions I got 
when I started making BD? It would explain why settling for a day or more seems 
to eliminate the problem.
3. Does the glycerine mix (or soaps) settle out more slowly in BD from 
incomplete reactions?

 Tom

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[Biofuel] Glycerin

[JAMES PHELPS]

Quite interesting,

http://www.eetcorp.com/heepm/glycerine.htm?gclid=CNzKrKi60okCFRzkYAodcUMk1g___
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Re: [Biofuel] glycerin blocks

[Ian & Lisl Woolworth]

- Original Message - 
From: "TLC Orchids and Such" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, March 19, 2005 10:08 PM
Subject: [Biofuel] glycerin blocks


Can you make glycerin blocks from non gelling glycerin? 
I have about 20 gallons of liquid glycerin and about 5 Gal. that gelled.


Jeremy
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Re: [Biofuel] glycerin blocks

[TLC Orchids and Such]

yes it is air tight. I haven't done methanol recovery on the glycerin and it
still has the naoh in it. I saw the five gallon methanol recovery still (for
glycerin) on journey to forever's site. but others say to leave the methanol
in to make a more flammable log. It also is still caustic.
Thanks for the reply
Jeremy

- Original Message - 
From: "DHAJOGLO" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, March 21, 2005 10:55 AM
Subject: re: [Biofuel] glycerin blocks


Jeremy,

>Can you make glycerin blocks from non gelling glycerin?
>I have about 20 gallons of liquid glycerin and about 5 Gal. that gelled.
>
>Jeremy

Pure glycerol will melt somewhere around 20C I believe.  However, if you
have any impurites (espically Methanol) then it will stay in a liquid state
at a lower temp.  Is your glyc. kept air tight?  Does it (presuming you
acquired it from transesterification) still have the [K|Na]OH still in it?

Regards,
-Dave


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re: [Biofuel] glycerin blocks

[DHAJOGLO]

Jeremy,

>Can you make glycerin blocks from non gelling glycerin?
>I have about 20 gallons of liquid glycerin and about 5 Gal. that gelled.
>
>Jeremy

Pure glycerol will melt somewhere around 20C I believe.  However, if you have 
any impurites (espically Methanol) then it will stay in a liquid state at a 
lower temp.  Is your glyc. kept air tight?  Does it (presuming you acquired it 
from transesterification) still have the [K|Na]OH still in it?

Regards,
-Dave


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[Biofuel] glycerin blocks

[TLC Orchids and Such]

Can you make glycerin blocks from non gelling glycerin? 
I have about 20 gallons of liquid glycerin and about 5 Gal. that gelled.

Jeremy
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Re: [Biofuel] glycerin and electricity

[Keith Addison]

dear keith
your abstract massage


It was a forwarded message.


is interesting
what do you meant by electricity produced by
digestion? is it biogas production by using glycerin?
Dr.Paulraj


It seems clear enough:


Forwarded message from a Journey to Forever reader.

Best wishes

Keith



Hello,

I work at a wastewater treatment plant and I was doing a search on glycerin
and biofuels and came across your website.  It's has good information
thanks.

Here's another use of glycerin:  Our treatment is accepting the glycerin
from a biofuel producer, we feed it to our digesters, slowly very slowly.
The addition of glycerin has dramatically increased our gas production,
that we run all three engines that produce  electricity for our plant and
occasionally need to flare off the excess methane (we have 4 flares).

This might be of interest to your readers that use digestion for
electricity.


You use digestion to produce methane to power a generator to produce 
electricity.


There were some subsequent messages if you want to read the whole thread.

Best wishes

Keith

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[Biofuel] glycerin and electricity

[Dr. Paul Raj]

dear keith
your abstract massage is interesting
what do you meant by electricity produced by
digestion? is it biogas production by using glycerin?
Dr.Paulraj




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Re: [Biofuel] Glycerin soap making

[Andrew Cunningham]

You should be able to use the left over lye in the glycerin layer to
make soap, but it may end up have way too much glycerin in it and end
up be drying for the skin.

Andy

On Wed, 16 Feb 2005 02:40:12 -0500, Appal Energy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Glycerin can be added to any soap. But it can't be used to make soap.
> 
> Glycerol is an alcohol. Fats/oils are required to make soap.
> 
> Todd Swearingen
> 
> - Original Message -
> From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2005 7:39 PM
> Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Glycerin soap making
> 
> >
> > can some glycerin be added to new oil to make a soap?
> > Farmer Paul
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >
> > ___
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Re: [Biofuel] Glycerin soap making

[Andrew Cunningham]

Paul,

Do you mean glycerin or the glycerin layer as there is a big difference?

Andy


On Tue, 15 Feb 2005 23:19:28 -0800 (PST), [EMAIL PROTECTED]
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> can some glycerin be added to new oil to make a soap?
> Farmer Paul
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: [Biofuel] Glycerin soap making

[Appal Energy]

Glycerol is an alcohol. Fats/oils are required to make soap.

Todd Swearingen

- Original Message - 
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2005 7:39 PM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Glycerin soap making




can some glycerin be added to new oil to make a soap?
Farmer Paul
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Re: [Biofuel] Glycerin soap making

[[EMAIL PROTECTED]]

can some glycerin be added to new oil to make a soap?
Farmer Paul
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Re: [Biofuel] Glycerin soap making

[Legal Eagle]

the other night having a good look through it. Simple and efficient. maybe I 
could make some ethanol (vodka) for "tinctures" :-) or a fuel additive, 
hehe.

Luc
- Original Message - 
From: "JD2005" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2005 5:22 PM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Glycerin soap making




- Original Message -
From: Legal Eagle

G'day JD;

Using a simple to make condenser. There is an example at the bottom of 
the

5

gallon processor at JtF
http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_processor5.html . I have just

finished

one of these and am hooking it up to a pressure cooker. This is yet
experimental, so don't run out and do it. The first use worked so so.


Is this the same as the absolute alcohol process?Alcohol from 
methanol.

Or is that something different again?


JD2005


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Re: [Biofuel] Glycerin soap making

[JD2005]

- Original Message -
From: Legal Eagle
> G'day JD;
>
> Using a simple to make condenser. There is an example at the bottom of the
5
> gallon processor at JtF
> http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_processor5.html . I have just
finished
> one of these and am hooking it up to a pressure cooker. This is yet
> experimental, so don't run out and do it. The first use worked so so.

Is this the same as the absolute alcohol process?Alcohol from methanol.
Or is that something different again?


JD2005


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Re: [Biofuel] Glycerin soap making

[Legal Eagle]

- Original Message - 
From: "JD2005" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, February 14, 2005 2:04 PM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Glycerin soap making

By evaporation...Is there an easy, non-expensive way of doing this using
standard eqipment that could be purchased anywhere in the world (i.e. the
UK)?


Using a simple to make condenser. There is an example at the bottom of the 5 
gallon processor at JtF 
http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_processor5.html . I have just finished 
one of these and am hooking it up to a pressure cooker. This is yet 
experimental, so don't run out and do it. The first use worked so so. It 
evaporated the methanol although the lid wasn't secure enough and I got 
leakage of methanol and around a heat source that is counter-indicated as 
the stuff is very volatile, so I am modifying the lid of the pressure cooker 
to be more hermetically sealed in order to send all the vapours into the 
condenser.
My condenser is almost identical to the one at JtF except that I used "T" 
fittings for the water inlet and drain. The in/out side of the "T" is 
threaded for standard 2" and so I used a fine thread bung cap with 3/4 
thread incorporated in the cap and plumbed a hose barb to it and then 
clamped the hose onto the barb.
Sealing the end caps was also a challenge. I tried epoxy, but it cracked and 
leaked, so I then remembered using a thing called Goop 
http://www.naturalhandyman.com/iip/infxtra/infgoo.shtm to fix a bit of trim 
that had come loose on the Benz, and this is cold weather and damp as well 
and it is still holding perfectly a year later, so I Goop-ed the copper 
tubing exiting the end caps with this stuff and it is holding up quite 
nicely, no leaks. I hope to have pics available soon.I have pics of the 
condenser but am waiting until I can get the unit working properly before 
posting about it all.

Luc



JD2005


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Re: [Biofuel] Glycerin soap making

[Andrew Cunningham]

If you have a sealed container with a vent line, source of hot water
(above 75C) and cold water - yes.  Run the hot water around the sealed
container or put the sealed container in bath of hot water.  This will
boil off the MeOH - add hot water as needed.  The vapors will travel
out the vent.  The vent line can be coiled and placed in a cold water
bath and the open end of the coil then leads into your MeOH recovery
vessel.  As the coil fills with MeOH it will push out the liquid MeOH
into the recovery vessel.  It would be good to keep that vessel cold
as well and have the outlet of the tubing go down to the bottom of
that tank so any left over vapors will bubble through cold MeOH and
condense (there shouldn't be any... but).

Goggle for batch distillation and find out what each X from a "XXX" jug means.

Andy


> 
> > -Or you could just recover the alcohol before burning.
> >
> > Andy
> 
> By evaporation...Is there an easy, non-expensive way of doing this using
> standard eqipment that could be purchased anywhere in the world (i.e. the
> UK)?
> 
> 
> JD2005
> 
> 
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Re: [Biofuel] Glycerin soap making

[JD2005]

- Original Message -
From: Andrew Cunningham


> -Or you could just recover the alcohol before burning.
>
> Andy

By evaporation...Is there an easy, non-expensive way of doing this using
standard eqipment that could be purchased anywhere in the world (i.e. the
UK)?


JD2005


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Re: [Biofuel] Glycerin soap making

[Andrew Cunningham]

You don't lose anything as you leave it in there on purpose, it adds to the
combustability of the glycerine "log".
Luc


-Or you could just recover the alcohol before burning.

Andy
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Re: [Biofuel] Glycerin soap making

[Legal Eagle]

- Original Message - 
From: "JD2005" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, February 13, 2005 11:15 PM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Glycerin soap making



Ok Thanks,

The burning idea with the milk cartons looks really good to us here. 
We're
burning wood and stuff on an old oxfordshire range here at the moment. 
I
wouldn't put one on untill we'd got a really hot fire though because of 
the

poison fumes it can cause.Also you stand stand to lose methanol or
ethanol that way unless you separate that out.


You don't lose anything as you leave it in there on purpose, it adds to the 
combustability of the glycerine "log".

Luc


The FFA separation with
some kind of expensive acid I reject on the grounds of expense.   Unless, 
I

could (I havn't got any methanol or a license for ethenol yet.) find a
market for the pure glycerin.

JD2005
- Original Message -
From:Legal Eagle

G'day JD;

Yes, maybe, and that is the experimenting part :-)
There is a lot of info at JtF about soap making too, have you snooped it 
?

Also about seperating the FFA's from the glycerine.
http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_glycsep.html
http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_glycerin.html

>
> JD2005
>
>
> Presumeably lye water would be realy an ideal method of making soap 
> from

> glycerin.
>
>




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Re: [Biofuel] Glycerin soap making

[JD2005]

Ok Thanks,

The burning idea with the milk cartons looks really good to us here.   We're
burning wood and stuff on an old oxfordshire range here at the moment.I
wouldn't put one on untill we'd got a really hot fire though because of the
poison fumes it can cause.Also you stand stand to lose methanol or
ethanol that way unless you separate that out.   The FFA separation with
some kind of expensive acid I reject on the grounds of expense.   Unless, I
could (I havn't got any methanol or a license for ethenol yet.) find a
market for the pure glycerin.

JD2005
- Original Message -
From:Legal Eagle
> G'day JD;
>
> Yes, maybe, and that is the experimenting part :-)
> There is a lot of info at JtF about soap making too, have you snooped it ?
> Also about seperating the FFA's from the glycerine.
> http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_glycsep.html
> http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_glycerin.html
>
> >
> > JD2005
> >
> >
> > Presumeably lye water would be realy an ideal method of making soap from
> > glycerin.
> >
> >



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Re: [Biofuel] Glycerin soap making

[Legal Eagle]

- Original Message - 
From: "JD2005" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, February 13, 2005 5:20 PM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Glycerin soap making



Thank you for this thread.   It is one of the best threads at the moment
because it is constructive.

When you make boifuel you are left with alot of glycerin we all know that.
What we don't know is what this glycerin can be utilised for.

Also if the glycerin is from a wvo reaction to make rem or ree whether it 
is

suitable for making soap or not.


Yes, maybe, and that is the experimenting part :-)
There is a lot of info at JtF about soap making too, have you snooped it ?
Also about seperating the FFA's from the glycerine.
http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_glycsep.html
http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_glycerin.html



JD2005


Presumeably lye water would be realy an ideal method of making soap from
glycerin.


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Re: [Biofuel] Glycerin soap making

[JD2005]

Thank you for this thread.   It is one of the best threads at the moment
because it is constructive.

When you make boifuel you are left with alot of glycerin we all know that.
What we don't know is what this glycerin can be utilised for.

Also if the glycerin is from a wvo reaction to make rem or ree whether it is
suitable for making soap or not.


JD2005


Presumeably lye water would be realy an ideal method of making soap from
glycerin.


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Re: [Biofuel] Glycerin soap making

[Andrew Cunningham]

Tracy,

I am currently taking classes towards a Masters in Health Product
Regulation.  I have spent a lot of time with various FDA regulations
and the way I would interpret "most" is that it has to  more than 50%
of the final product.  Therefore you could take pure soap and mix 49%
dirt into it and sell it as soap.  Not many people would buy 49% dirt
soap, but it would meet the FDA's description of "Soap".  I would have
to lookup the definition of cosmetics to be sure, but the main
differences between soaps, cosmetics and drugs are what you claim it
does.

You are correct about the soap reaction, by-product glycerin can be
added to soap but cannot be made into soap.

My only suggestion on how to determine the amount of lye to use would
be to do small trial batches or some form of titration.

Andy


On Sat, 12 Feb 2005 00:50:47 -0800 (PST), Jeremy & Tracy Longworth
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> My name is Tracy, and I am Jeremy's wife.  I am also a soapmaker.  There are 
> a few things that concern me about making soap with the by-product of 
> biodiesel.
> 
> First, imho, the wvo is not exactly the cleanest stuff to begin with and I 
> think there might be problems with the government in producing soap with it.  
> The FDA defines soap as "a product in which most of the nonvolatile matter 
> consists of an alkali salt of fatty acids and whose detergent properties are 
> due to these alkali-fatty acid compounds".  If I read the regulations 
> correctly, if a "soap" is made mostly of anything else, it is then considered 
> a cosmetic and comes under certain regulations.  True soap is not regulated 
> by the FDA: cosmetics are.
> 
> Secondly, soap cannot be made from primarily glycerin.  Glycerin is a 
> by-product of soapmaking and is left in handmade soaps or extracted from 
> commercially made soaps.  The soap is formed from the reaction of a caustic 
> soda and fatty acids.  If anyone is truly making soap from the by-product of 
> making biodiesel, then it would stand to reason that there are left-over oils 
> in the glycerin.
> 
> Third, there is no way to know for certain what kinds of oils comprise WVO.  
> Many restaurants don't always use the same kind of oil.  That being the case, 
> I can't see how one could accurately figure the amount of lye needed in order 
> to achieve proper saponification.  Every oil requires a different amount of 
> lye in order for it to properly saponify.  If one were to use too much lye, 
> the resultant soap would be "lye heavy" and too harsh for anyone to use.
> 
> I did also see written that the lye was to be added to warm water, I believe. 
>  I, and the soapmakers I am in contact with, add their lye to cold water.  
> When the lye is added to water, the resulting solution can reach temperatures 
> near boiling at times.  If one was to start out with warm water, the solution 
> could volcano and create quite a mess, not to mention it could also cause 
> harm to anyone around at the time.
> 
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[Biofuel] Glycerin soap making

[Jeremy & Tracy Longworth]

My name is Tracy, and I am Jeremy's wife.  I am also a soapmaker.  There are a 
few things that concern me about making soap with the by-product of biodiesel.

First, imho, the wvo is not exactly the cleanest stuff to begin with and I 
think there might be problems with the government in producing soap with it.  
The FDA defines soap as "a product in which most of the nonvolatile matter 
consists of an alkali salt of fatty acids and whose detergent properties are 
due to these alkali-fatty acid compounds".  If I read the regulations 
correctly, if a "soap" is made mostly of anything else, it is then considered a 
cosmetic and comes under certain regulations.  True soap is not regulated by 
the FDA: cosmetics are.

Secondly, soap cannot be made from primarily glycerin.  Glycerin is a 
by-product of soapmaking and is left in handmade soaps or extracted from 
commercially made soaps.  The soap is formed from the reaction of a caustic 
soda and fatty acids.  If anyone is truly making soap from the by-product of 
making biodiesel, then it would stand to reason that there are left-over oils 
in the glycerin.

Third, there is no way to know for certain what kinds of oils comprise WVO.  
Many restaurants don't always use the same kind of oil.  That being the case, I 
can't see how one could accurately figure the amount of lye needed in order to 
achieve proper saponification.  Every oil requires a different amount of lye in 
order for it to properly saponify.  If one were to use too much lye, the 
resultant soap would be "lye heavy" and too harsh for anyone to use.

I did also see written that the lye was to be added to warm water, I believe.  
I, and the soapmakers I am in contact with, add their lye to cold water.  When 
the lye is added to water, the resulting solution can reach temperatures near 
boiling at times.  If one was to start out with warm water, the solution could 
volcano and create quite a mess, not to mention it could also cause harm to 
anyone around at the time.


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[biofuel] Glycerin Conversion

[steven mesibov]

This is the response I got from my coworker who is a chemist.  Anybody
tried this? I think I tried the acetic acid once in college under
somebodies door, but I don't remember any french fry smelling bio-diesel
as a result... ;-)


>>> steven mesibov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 06/16/04 10:45am >>>
John,
Wondering if the glycerin byproduct of waste veggie oil (WVO) conversion
to biodiesel can be converted to something more useful.  What do you think
of what they say below?

Steve Mesibov


 In the first proposition, I believe you would simply end up with a 
partially hydrogenated veggie oil. Congratulations, you just made
margarine.   The sodium methoxide route you currently know about is pretty
darn direct as it is, even though glycerin is a by-product.  I'd stick
with it.
 In the second proposition, absolutely nothing will result.  In fact, 
alcohols are frequently used as solvents in hydrogenation reactions. 
However, you could react the glycerin with dry formic acid or glacial 
acetic acid.  This will transform the glycerin into a methyl ester that
should blend nicely with the biodiesel.  This methyl ester may be easy to
separate from the unreacted glycerin and acid since it should not be very
water soluble.  In other words, adding water to the mixture after the
reaction is finished should cause it to separate into 2 distinct layers. 
This is just an idea mind you.  You will have to try it and see how it
goes.  Nothing particularly dangerous about the reaction..pretty
commonplace and boring, actually.  You will want to use a fairly large
excess of glycerin on a mole basis since the reaction is 
equilibrium driven.  (The disappearance of the strong smell of the acid
should signal the completion of the reaction).

Hope this helps.

John   


-

-- Ken Provost <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> To: 
> From: Ken Provost <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 08:42:34 -0700
> Subject: Re: [biofuel] Direct oil conversion?
> 
> on 6/15/04 7:35 AM, tomasjkn at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> 
> > It seems to me, that there should be a direct chemical
> > conversion route from oil to fatty acid methyl esters.
> > 
> > (R-COO)-CH2-(R-COO-)CH-CH2-(-COO-R) +3H2 ==> 3 R-COO-CH3
> > 
> >
> 
> Unfortunately, the ester linkage will always be much easier
> to break than the C-C bonds in the glycerol. I don't believe
> what you're suggesting would be possible.
> 
> 
> > 
> > Or, perhaps a less radical idea, but achieving the same
> > economy: Maybe there is a route to convert your waste
> > glycerol into methanol?
> > 
> > CH2OH-CHOH-CH2OH + 3H2 ==> 3 CH3OH
> > 
> >
> 
> This one is much more likely -- there are probly bacteria or
> yeasts that could break down a simple sugar like glycerol
> directly to methanol. If not, they could certainly be
> bioengineered :-)-K
> 




--- tomasjkn <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hello dear fellow biofuelers,
> I have one theorethical question for chemists among you :). It seams
> to me, that there should be a direct chemical conversion route from
> oil to fatty acid methyl esters.
> 
> (R-COO)-CH2-(R-COO-)CH-CH2-(-COO-R)  + 3H2  ==> 3 R-COO-CH3 
> 
> Has anyone of you studied this conversion path? This path seams to
> have greater potential for beeing cheaper, because there is no need to
> add methanol into the process and there is no waste glycerol; the only
> _realy_ hard thing is to find an appropriate catalyst.
> 
> But this way you completely eliminate the tedious process of first
> splitting the oil into the glycerol and FFA and then combining FFAs
> with methanol, to get the final product - fatty acid methyl esters.
> 
> 
> Or, perhaps a less radical idea, but achieving the same economy :)
> Maybe there is a route to convert your waste glycerol into methanol?
> 
> CH2OH-CHOH-CH2OH + 3H2 ==> 3 CH3OH
> 
> The hydrogen sorce for both reactions need not to be pure hydrogen,
> this might be some other chemical, which gives off hydrogen athoms in
> reaction...
> 
> So, any ideas on this??
> 
> 
> 




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[biofuel] glycerin

[Roberto Azambuja]

I'm studying producing biodiesel from etanol + soybean oil. 
Where could I find companies interested in purchasing the raw glycerin ?
  - Original Message - 
  From: Neoteric Biofuels Inc 
  To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Thursday, May 06, 2004 10:25 AM
  Subject: Re: [biofuel] smartcar


  They're taking orders now - in the thousands already. Anyone that is 
  thinking about it better go and do it now,  not expect to walk in the 
  showroom in September and get one with the large jump in fuel 
  prices here a few days ago, I bet they can't write orders up fast 
  enough.





  On Thursday, May 6, 2004, at 06:32 AM, hamiltonjohndavid wrote:

  > Check it out. The "smart" mini car from Europe will be available in 
  > Canada this
  > fall. 3cyl TurboDiesel, 80Mpg, 16-20g $Cdn in Coupe or Convertible. I 
  > want
  > one!
  >
  > http://www.thesmart.ca
  >
  > http://autos.en.msn.ca/advice/standardart.aspx?contentid=4022311&src=
  > home&pos=editlead
  >
  >
  >
  >
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  > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
  >
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  > http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
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Re: [biofuel] glycerin use

[Appal Energy]

No.

First, you would need to find to incorporate an emuslifying agent to get the
glycerol to mix with the oil.

Second, you would also be adding a water fraction unless you distilled it
out first. (The presumption is being made that you are speaking of
glycerol/ffa separation as discussed at
http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_glycsep.html )

Third, you would be increasing the ratio of glycerol to fatty acids by
adding it to the already-glycerol-bearing glycerides (SVO).

Aside from that, one has to ask why would a person extract glycerol from
glycerides (make biodiesel) and then add a fluid that is as thick as
molasses back to a fluid that is already as viscous a fluid as SVO or WVO?

Todd Swearingen

- Original Message - 
From: "Mccall Tom WP US" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Friday, November 07, 2003 10:36 AM
Subject: [biofuel] glycerin use


> After one removed the water could the glycerin be mixed with SVO
> and burned in a Diesel?
>
> Tom
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
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> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
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[biofuel] glycerin use

[Mccall Tom WP US]

After one removed the water could the glycerin be mixed with SVO
and burned in a Diesel?
 
Tom

 



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[biofuel] Glycerin and biogas - was Re: Glycerin as energy source ?

[Keith Addison]

Glycerine: High-explosives
http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_glycerin.html#nitroG

There's a much better way of doing what you propose Pieter - several, 
in fact. Glycerin burns well, so do FFAs - the whole by-product as-is 
burns well, and some people are using it as a heat source for the 
biodiesel process.

The by-product has many uses, and we keep finding more, but it 
depends on your situation: many people still end up "disposing" of it 
by composting it (it must be mixed with suitable quantities of dry, 
fibrous matter, with overall C:N ratio, moisture content and 
air-supply optimised).

A better option might be to use it as feedstock for a biogas unit for 
methane generation - it could not be the sole feedstock, it would 
need an added nitrogen source and added fibre, but nowhere are either 
of those a problem. You're sitting on one good source for nitrogen, 
for one thing (or rather on two good sources), and there's no 
shortage of old newspapers, sawdust, whatever, for fibre.

Methane would be a better heat source for biodiesel processing than 
direct burning of the by-product: no danger of acrolein production, 
and there's not enough by-product anyway to heat the process 
directly, making biogas would extend it. Use the gas flame direct if 
you use a closed processor and could do it safely, or heat water 
(which can also be pre-heated in a hot compost pile) and use the hot 
water to supply process heat.

The same applies to people making fuel ethanol - what to do with all 
that spent mash, especially if you don't have a flock of chickens, or 
a compost pile? Should make an ideal biogas digester feedstock.

For us, both these things are just thoughts and plans right now, but 
we'll be doing them on the ground here before long - biodiesel's in 
full production now of course, so is compost, and poultry, crops, 
grains etc; we'll have a digester going quite soon, and ethanol 
distillation is not far behind on the list.

Best

Keith


>Hello,
>This is a dangerous subject. I know that dynamite is made out of glycerin
>( nitroglycerin ).
>When nitroglycerin is able to knock buildings down or blow mountains up,
>can't we use it as energy source ?
>I know the danger of this material, so I won't do any experiments with it,
>but perhaps a good chemist can do something with this idea. ( which is
>probably not new ).
>In case somebody reads this who is not aware of the danger of dynamite :
>
>PLEASE don't try any experiments. As I read somewhere : Dynamite will always
>try to kill the maker of it as quick as possible, so please do not try it !!
>
>The idea is, to use the enormous amount of potential energy in dynamite, may
>be not for driving our cars, but in a...( I don't know the english
>word ) factory where they make electricity ( I hope you understand what I
>mean ), controlled by people who know what they are doing.
>I don't know anything about the possible polution caused by the use of
>dynamite.
>
>
>Met vriendelijke groeten,
>Pieter Koole
>Netherlands.
>
> > Hoi Greg,
> > That sounds interesting. What is a Methane digester ? Can I build it or
>buy
> > it, or is it industrial equipment ?
> >
> > Met vriendelijke groeten,
> > Pieter Koole
> > Netherlands


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[biofuel] Glycerin as energy source ?

[Pieter Koole]

Hello,
This is a dangerous subject. I know that dynamite is made out of glycerin
( nitroglycerin ).
When nitroglycerin is able to knock buildings down or blow mountains up,
can't we use it as energy source ?
I know the danger of this material, so I won't do any experiments with it,
but perhaps a good chemist can do something with this idea. ( which is
probably not new ).
In case somebody reads this who is not aware of the danger of dynamite :

PLEASE don't try any experiments. As I read somewhere : Dynamite will always
try to kill the maker of it as quick as possible, so please do not try it !!

The idea is, to use the enormous amount of potential energy in dynamite, may
be not for driving our cars, but in a...( I don't know the english
word ) factory where they make electricity ( I hope you understand what I
mean ), controlled by people who know what they are doing.
I don't know anything about the possible polution caused by the use of
dynamite.


Met vriendelijke groeten,
Pieter Koole
Netherlands.

> Hoi Greg,
> That sounds interesting. What is a Methane digester ? Can I build it or
buy
> it, or is it industrial equipment ?
>
> Met vriendelijke groeten,
> Pieter Koole
> Netherlands
> - Original Message -
> From: "Greg and April" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: 
> Sent: Sunday, June 22, 2003 5:21 AM
> Subject: Re: [biofuel] Ammonia as Fuel
>
>
> >
> >
> >
> > - Original Message -
> > From: "Robert Mills" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: 
> > Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Sent: Saturday, June 21, 2003 19:26
> > Subject: Re: [biofuel] Ammonia as Fuel
> >
> >
> > > Somehow, we must get the messages in better order.
> > >
> > > Ammonia was never discussed as a fuel. It's entire use in this
> discussion
> > was that of a transportation medium for the hydrogen.
> > >
> > > While ammonia will burn, there are plenty of reasons that one does not
> > want to be around it. It can kill.
> > >
> > > Ammonia has a boiling point of -21 degrees "F" and will lay in a
liquid
> > form wherever you want to have it. As the temperature of ammonia rises,
it
> > will require pressure to hold it in the liquid form. At 100 degrees "F",
> the
> > pressure required to keep it in the liquid form is 210 psig.
> > >
> > > Bob
> > >
> >
> > Look at the message I was responding to ( directly below ) Bob.   Some
> how,
> > Greg ( not Greg H. myself ) was equating methanol as being NH3, when it
is
> > not.  Perhaps Greg, was thinking Methane ( CH4 ), instead of Methanol (
> > CH3OH ), but typed Methanol instead.  You can get Methane form the same
> > source as the NH3, with some processing ( a Methane Digester ), but,
that
> is
> > completely different.
> >
> > As to Pieter Kools question,  If the excreatment ( can we say that on
this
> > list? ), which is the source of the heavy NH3 in the air, is run through
a
> > Methane Digester,  the amount of Ammonia ( NH3 ), filling the air would
be
> > cut down to almost nothing, and the Nitrogen would be recoverable in a
> > usable form for farming, and BioGas would be available for use as well.
> >
> > Funny thing, You could use the Methane Digester to reduce the NH3 in the
> > air, put the recoverable N back into the ground, make biogas, which in
> turn
> > ( with the proper equipment ) can be made into syngas, and from there
> > reformed into Methanol which could power your car.
> >
> > Greg H.
> >
> > > - Original Message -
> > > From: "greg" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > To: 
> > > Sent: Sunday, June 22, 2003 10:45 PM
> > > Subject: Re: [biofuel] Ammonia as Fuel
> > >
> > >
> > > > what you have is methanol.compress it, and you can run your car.
same
> as
> > > > with propane.   greg
> > > > -Original Message-
> > > > From: Pieter Koole <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > > To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com 
> > > > Date: Saturday, June 21, 2003 7:07 AM
> > > > Subject: Re: [biofuel] Ammonia as Fuel
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > >How does one use NH3 as energy source ?
> > > > >I ask this, because in Holland we have big problems with NH3
polution
> > > > coming
> > > > >out of huge animal houses with hundreds of thousends of pigs or
> > chickens.
> > > > >If we could filter the NH3 out of the air and use it as a fuel, it
> > would
> > > be
> > > > >great.
> > > > >
> > > > >Pieter Koole
> >
> >
> >
> > Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
> >
> > Biofuels list archives:
> > http://archive.nnytech.net/
> >
> > Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address.
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> >
> >
>
>
>
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>
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Re: [biofuel] glycerin buyers?

[Appal Energy]

Depends upon what you call large. Anything glycerin accumulating from over
50 gallons per week of biodiesel production should be given or sold to the
nearest glycerin refiner, after FFA recovery, of course.

Todd Swearingen

- Original Message -
From: "Kim Nguyen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Thursday, May 15, 2003 1:04 PM
Subject: Re: [biofuel] glycerin buyers?


> How does one get rid of the "glycerol" from bio-diesel production?,
> especially in larger quantities...is it more cost effective and
> environmentally responsible to invest in glycerol processing equipment
> so one doesn't have to "discard" the entire mixture?
>
> Kim
> Sac, CA
>
>
> >>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 05/10/03 12:53AM >>>
> >Is there anyone in Western Canada that will buy the glycerin I get
> >from my diesel?
> >
> >Brent
> >Sask. Canada
>
> You'll be very lucky to sell it in the raw form. It's not just
> glycerine, as Todd already explained to you:
> http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?view=24684&list=BIOFUEL
>
> If you separate it you'll get three distinct layers, the catalyst at
> the bottom, industrial-grade glycerine in the middle, about 95% pure,
> and FFA on top, and you might be able to sell this separated
> glycerine. See:
> http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_glycsep.html
> Separating glycerine/FFAs
>
> Keith
>
>
>
> Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>
> Biofuels list archives:
> http://archive.nnytech.net/
>
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>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
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> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>
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Re: [biofuel] glycerin buyers?

[Kim Nguyen]

How does one get rid of the "glycerol" from bio-diesel production?,
especially in larger quantities...is it more cost effective and
environmentally responsible to invest in glycerol processing equipment
so one doesn't have to "discard" the entire mixture?

Kim
Sac, CA


>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 05/10/03 12:53AM >>>
>Is there anyone in Western Canada that will buy the glycerin I get
>from my diesel?
>
>Brent
>Sask. Canada

You'll be very lucky to sell it in the raw form. It's not just 
glycerine, as Todd already explained to you:
http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?view=24684&list=BIOFUEL

If you separate it you'll get three distinct layers, the catalyst at 
the bottom, industrial-grade glycerine in the middle, about 95% pure, 
and FFA on top, and you might be able to sell this separated 
glycerine. See:
http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_glycsep.html
Separating glycerine/FFAs

Keith



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Re: [biofuel] glycerin buyers?

[Keith Addison]

>Is there anyone in Western Canada that will buy the glycerin I get
>from my diesel?
>
>Brent
>Sask. Canada

You'll be very lucky to sell it in the raw form. It's not just 
glycerine, as Todd already explained to you:
http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?view=24684&list=BIOFUEL

If you separate it you'll get three distinct layers, the catalyst at 
the bottom, industrial-grade glycerine in the middle, about 95% pure, 
and FFA on top, and you might be able to sell this separated 
glycerine. See:
http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_glycsep.html
Separating glycerine/FFAs

Keith


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Re: [biofuel] glycerin buyers?

[mark schofield]

How much is the commercial value of glycerine
anyhow?

Mark, England

=
Mark Schofield
M.Sc B.Eng DHE AMIMechE 
t 07944 401662 
e [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Autogas Conversions and LPG Pumps

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[biofuel] glycerin buyers?

[brent3369]

Is there anyone in Western Canada that will buy the glycerin I get 
from my diesel?

Brent
Sask. Canada



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Re: [biofuel] glycerin

[Appal Energy]

The "glycerin" layer is not just glycerin, nor is it primarily glycerin. The
rule of thumb is ~79 mililiters of glycerin for every liter of feedstock.
This actually makes the "glycerin" layer more of a "soap" layer than
anything else, at least if you name something by its highest constituent
volume or weight.

The glycerin layer is a combination of alcohol, soap and glycerin. The more
alcohol you use in your process, the less viscous the layer will be. If you
use potassium hydroxide rather than sodium hydroxide, the layer will be
slightly less viscous. (Potassium hydroxide is generally used to make liquid
soaps, while sodium hydroxide is generally used to make bar soaps.)

The more FFAs in the parent oil the more viscous the layer will be, as the
ratio of soap increases relative to the amount of glycerin and excess
alcohol.

And the type of FFAs and their ratio to each other will determine how hard
or thin the glycerin layer stays. A feedstock high in palmitic and stearic
acids will yield a harder soap (or more viscous glycerin layer) than a
feedstock with lower ratios.

Eeach feedstock will give you a byproduct of different physical properties.

Todd Swearingen

- Original Message -
From: "brent3369" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2003 3:59 PM
Subject: [biofuel] glycerin


> Ok, reheated the glycerin I got from my first batch. It looks very
> rich. It is thinner than molasses at room temp. Why would it remain
> so thin? The information I have found suggests that it should be
> solid, or close to it, at room temp.
>
> The diesel itself has a ph of 8.5, so I will bubble wash it and see
> what happens.
>
> Brent
>
>
>
>
> Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>
> Biofuels list archives:
> http://archive.nnytech.net/
>
> Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address.
> To unsubscribe, send an email to:
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>
>
>


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[biofuel] glycerin

[brent3369]

Ok, reheated the glycerin I got from my first batch. It looks very 
rich. It is thinner than molasses at room temp. Why would it remain 
so thin? The information I have found suggests that it should be 
solid, or close to it, at room temp.

The diesel itself has a ph of 8.5, so I will bubble wash it and see 
what happens.

Brent



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Re: [biofuel] glycerin from Physic nut

[Keith Addison]

>Hi
>  can anybody tell me wether glycerin made from the Jatropha
>Carcus(Physic nut) is Toxic or not. I want to use  Jatropha oil for making
>biodiesel. I want to know wether glycerin obtained from this process has the
>same market value as glycerin produced from other oils. Information on
>Jatropha is found at www.jatropha.org
>
>Regards
>Raj

Hello Raj

I suggest you should ask Reinhard Henning that, who runs the jatropha 
site. His address is: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

But I should think it wouldn't be the glycerol fraction that's toxic, 
and once it's split off from the triglyceride and refined, it should 
be fine. If it's not refined, well, I don't know. If you simply 
separate the FFA and catalyst from the glycerine you should have 
industrial-grade glycerine of about 95% purity. You might be able to 
sell it as-is to refiners.

http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_glycsep.html
Separating glycerine/FFAs

By the way, you might be interested in this post to the Stoves list 
at REPP on jatropha from a researcher in India.

>From: "A.D. Karve" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: "Harmon Seaver" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Subject: Re: Jatropha oil as household energy (forwarding Henning)
>Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 21:29:28 +0530
>
>Dear Mr. Seaver,
> I have conducted field experiments on both castor and Jatropha.  I had
>already mentioned in a previous E-mail, that Jatropha was tested rather
>widely in India and was given up because it was not found to be as high
>yielding as the traditional oil crops in India.  I do not know how it
>behaves in other countries, but under our agroclimatic and edaphic
>conditions, Jatropha produces much more vegetative matter than fruits.  At
>harvest, one has to search for the occasional fruit hidden behind all the
>foliage that this plant produces.  It is found all over India as a wild
>plant.  India has some 25 uncultivated species of trees that yield
>non-edible oil. The seed of the wild trees is collected by villagers and
>sold to merchants attending the weekly village markets, but no farmer would
>ever think of growing them as a crop, because all of them are lower yielding
>than the cultivated oil plants such as peanut, soybean, sunflower,
>safflower, sesame, various mustards and rapes, coconut, etc. Among the
>seasonal oilseeds, hybrid castor is the highest yielding (2.5 tonnes oil per
>ha), but it is not an edible oil. The highest yield of edible oil, also
>about 2.5 tonnes per ha, is obtained from coconut. Oil palm, which yields 6
>tonnes of oil per hectare in Malaysia,  was tested and given up as low
>yielding under Indian conditions.
>Yours A.D.Karve

Best wishes

Keith Addison


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[biofuel] glycerin from Physic nut

[Raj Gopal]

Hi
  can anybody tell me wether glycerin made from the Jatropha
Carcus(Physic nut) is Toxic or not. I want to use  Jatropha oil for making
biodiesel. I want to know wether glycerin obtained from this process has the
same market value as glycerin produced from other oils. Information on
Jatropha is found at www.jatropha.org

Regards
Raj





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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Fwd: Re: [biofuel] glycerin use

[doosjp]

--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], David <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Get rid of the methanol and it makes great hand cleaner/de greaser

David

At 07:37 PM 30/05/2002 +0100, you wrote:
>I reply to:
>I am a member of this group since 2000, but I had no
>quastion until now. I have a big problem what to do
>with glycerin. I am pripare to buy a expensive
>(cca.60.000,00 $) vakum destilater to puryfai (clean)
>glycerin, but do not now for what use is than that
>glycerin. I make glycerin  from waste wegetable oil.
>Please help me! Thanks egon
>
>As with a lot of info on the net, there seems to be a lot of
>contradictions. Glycerin has been said to be a valuable biproduct, but
>retails at £750.00 per tonne (GBP) ex Albion chemicals, UK, which is not
>that fantastic for the producer. Other possibilities discussed have been
>for fertiliser (not a good option for myself) or as a furnace fuel for
>heating oil for drying or getting to reaction temperature. Nobody seems to
>have come forward with a good design for the furnace, which would involve
>preheating the fuel to about 500 degrees C to get a clean burn, but I
>peronnally think this is the best option and intend to persue this avenue.
>My stock pile of glycerine are beginning to become a problem and i don't
>want to dump it as waste.
>
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
>http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>
>Biofuels list archives:
>http://archive.nnytech.net/
>
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>To unsubscribe, send an email to:
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>
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--- End forwarded message ---

RE: [biofuel] glycerin use

[kirk]

HYPERLINK
"http://www.herbalhut.com/mfrs/hh_raw_materials.asp"http://www.herbalhut.com
/mfrs/hh_raw_materials.aspÊsells it for $46.96 a gallon "wholesale"

Ê

Ê

Sell it as hand lotion? Glycerin is sold in the states as "Corn Husker's
Lotion".
Need some 1/2 pint bottles and a bottling machine.

It has broad uses.

Kirk
Ê

Ê

ÊPerhaps added value?

MANUFACTURE OF POLYGLYCOLS

FROM CRUDE GLYCERIN

Ê

 G. HILLION, I. DURAND, R. STERN, G. DA COSTA

ÊAbstract

Ê

ÊÊÊ The aim of this study was to develop a new process for the
synthesis of polyglycerols from crude glycerin. Glycerin is the main
by-product of the "BiodieselØ" process and therefore a cheap and in big
quantities available raw material.

ÊÊÊ Three different qualities of crude glycerin are available on the
market (basic, sulphuric and chlorhydric glycerins) from the two French
"DIESTERØ" units in ROUEN and in COMPIEGNE.

>From sulphuric glycerin, the polyglycerols obtained contains a very low
concentration of soluble salts. Besides, it causes no corrosion problems
like chlorhydric glycerin. The nature of the soluble salts in glycerin
determines the polyglycerol distributions and the mixtures obtained have
different compositions compared with the commercial products. The basic
glycerin contains big amounts of sodium soaps and yields polyglycerols with
25% (by weight) of cyclic compounds. Thus, sulphuric glycerin is certainly
the best raw material.

The polycondensation of sulphuric glycerin is carried out in presence of
sodium sulphate (5% max) with sodium hydroxide within a temperature range of
250 to 265¿CØ. Conversion rates are determined by measuring the quantity of
water which is produced during the reaction. For example, the synthesis of
theoretical decaglycerol would lead to a weight loss of 18% by generation of
water. For decaglycerol production a theoretical yield of 86.9% (by weight)
has been determined. A yield of 79.4% was obtained during the industrial
test. Different compositions of polyglycerols can be obtained with different
degrees of polycondensation.

ÊÊÊ The first step of the downstream process is a filtration which
partly removes the residual salts. The removal of the remaining salts by ion
exchange resins improves as well the colour of the product.

ÊÊÊ Polyglycerol esters can be obtained by addition of fatty acids
or methyl esters at 190¿C - 220¿C to the crude mixture which still contains
the catalyst. In this case, the salts can be removed after the
neutralisation of the basic catalyst.

Ê

Estimated cost of polyglycerols are depending on the price of crude glycerin
and the capacity of the unit. The manufacturing costs of crude polyglycerols
(without purification by ion exchange resins) decrease from 16 to 10FØ/kg if
the annual productions increase from 100Øt/a to 500Øt/a.

For information, market price varies between 15 and 32F/kg depending of the
purity and the composition of the product.

Ê

Polyglycerols in the ester forms, are good emulsifying agents. Their main
uses concern food industry and cosmetics.










-Original Message-
From: goat industries [ HYPERLINK
"mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]"mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
o.uk]
Sent: Thursday, May 30, 2002 12:38 PM
To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [biofuel] glycerin use


I reply to:
I am a member of this group since 2000, but I had no
quastion until now. I have a big problem what to do
with glycerin. I am pripare to buy a expensive
(cca.60.000,00 $) vakum destilater to puryfai (clean)
glycerin, but do not now for what use is than that
glycerin. I make glycerinÊ from waste wegetable oil.
Please help me! Thanks egon

As with a lot of info on the net, there seems to be a lot of contradictions.
Glycerin has been said to be a valuable biproduct, but retails at £750.00
per tonne (GBP) ex Albion chemicals, UK, which is not that fantastic for the
producer. Other possibilities discussed have been for fertiliser (not a good
option for myself) or as a furnace fuel for heating oil for drying or
getting to reaction temperature. Nobody seems to have come forward with a
good design for the furnace, which would involve preheating the fuel to
about 500 degrees C to get a clean burn, but I peronnally think this is the
best option and intend to persue this avenue. My stock pile of glycerine are
beginning to become a problem and i don't want to dump it as waste.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





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[biofuel] glycerin use

[goat industries]

I reply to: 
I am a member of this group since 2000, but I had no
quastion until now. I have a big problem what to do
with glycerin. I am pripare to buy a expensive
(cca.60.000,00 $) vakum destilater to puryfai (clean)
glycerin, but do not now for what use is than that
glycerin. I make glycerin  from waste wegetable oil.
Please help me! Thanks egon

As with a lot of info on the net, there seems to be a lot of contradictions. 
Glycerin has been said to be a valuable biproduct, but retails at £750.00 per 
tonne (GBP) ex Albion chemicals, UK, which is not that fantastic for the 
producer. Other possibilities discussed have been for fertiliser (not a good 
option for myself) or as a furnace fuel for heating oil for drying or getting 
to reaction temperature. Nobody seems to have come forward with a good design 
for the furnace, which would involve preheating the fuel to about 500 degrees C 
to get a clean burn, but I peronnally think this is the best option and intend 
to persue this avenue. My stock pile of glycerine are beginning to become a 
problem and i don't want to dump it as waste.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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[biofuel] glycerin

[egon kriegere]

I am a member of this group since 2000, but I had no
quastion until now. I have a big problem what to do
with glycerin. I am pripare to buy a expensive
(cca.60.000,00 $) vakum destilater to puryfai (clean)
glycerin, but do not now for what use is than that
glycerin. I make glycerin  from waste wegetable oil.
Please help me! Thanks egon

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[biofuel] glycerin (Long but interesting)

[Christian]

Pasted from: 
http://www.ibiblio.org/herbmed/eclectic/kings/glycerinum.html


Glycerinum (U. S. P.)-Glycerin.
Preparations: Glycerita.-Glycerites - Suppositories of Glycerin - Glycerin 
Lotion - Preparations
Related entry: Sapo (U. S. P.)-Soap
Other tomes: Cook - Felter - Ellingwood - Petersen - BPC - AJP Mar 1871 
(Glycerin quality) - AJP Dec 1871

FORMULA: C3H5(OH)3. MOLECULAR WEIGHT: 91.79.
"A liquid obtained by the decomposition of vegetable or animal fats or fixed 
oils, and containing not less than 5 per cent of absolute glycerin (C3H5[OH]3= 
91.79)"-(U. S. P.).
SYNONYMS: Glycerina (U. S. P., 1870), Glycerine, Glycerol, Propenyl alcohol.

History and Preparation.-Glycerin was discovered, in 1779, by Scheele in the 
saponification products of olive oil by means of litharge, and later recognized 
by him as a common constituent of other oils and fats, and therefore named the 
"sweet principle of fats." Chevreul gave it the name glycerin, and cleared up 
the nature of its combination in the fats. Glycerin, or glycerol, as it is now 
preferably called to indicate its alcohol character, is a trihydric alcohol 
(C3H5[OH]3), containing the trivalent radical "glyceryl" (C3H5). It exists in 
oils and fats, combined with palmitic, stearic, and oleic acids in the form of 
glycerylesters of these acids (tripalmitin, tristearin, triolein; also see 
under Adeps). In some oils and fats it is combined partially with other 
acids-e. g., in butter-wherein 5 per cent of the total fat is 
glyceryl-tributyrate, or tributyrin; in cod-liver oil it is said to exist in 
part combined with acetic acid, as glyceryl triacetate, or triacetin, etc. 
Glycerin also exists in the yolk of eggs and the human brain in the form of 
phospho-glyceric acid. Pasteur's researches have also established its 
occurrence as a regular constituent among the products of fermentation (see 
Alcohol).

On a small scale glycerin may be obtained in the process which led to its 
discovery, viz., that of making lead plaster (see Emplastrum Plumbi). The late 
Mr. Robert Shoemaker prepared by this method probably the first Commercial 
glycerin in the United States, in 1848, at $4.00 a pound (Amer. Jour. Pharm., 
1879, p. 289). The article became official in the U. S. P., in 1850.

Large quantities of glycerin are now obtained as a by-product in the 
manufacture of soaps and candles. This was formerly thrown away as useless. The 
principle involved is simply that of splitting the fat into its constituents 
(fatty acid and glycerin) by adding the elements of water (see Emplastrum 
Plumbi). The process of saponification is being carried out in several 
different ways: (1) With alkalies; the fatty acids thereby combine with alkali 
and form soap (see Sapo); the glycerin in diluted form is contained in the 
aqueous layer below the soap. (2) With milk of lime (old process of Campbell 
Morfit, see this Dispensatory, previous revision), or with milk of lime and 
water in closed vessels under a pressure of 10 atmospheres and a temperature of 
172¡ C. (242.6¡ F.) (Milly's Autoclave Process, see Prof. S. P. Sadtler, 
Handbook of Indust. Org. Chem., 1895, p. 56). The glycerin water separates from 
the layer of lime soap and fatty acids; glycerin is obtained therefrom best by 
evaporation in vacuo. (3) With superheated steam ("aqueous saponification") and 
subsequent redistillation of the raw glycerin. This method was introduced, in 
1855, by Messrs. Wilson and Paine, and marked a great step forward in the 
problem of obtaining a pure article. In saponifying the fats with superheated 
steam, the temperature must not exceed 300¡ C. (572¡ F.), or else decomposition 
products will be formed. Both the fatty acid and the glycerin distill over. In 
redistilling the raw glycerin by superheated steam, the liquid is heated to 
about 180¡ C. (356¡ F.), and the steam has a temperature of about 110¡ C. (230¡ 
F.). For details regarding the manufacture of glycerin, consult the various 
works on chemical technology.

Description.-Glycerin is officially described as follows; "A clear, colorless, 
liquid, of a thick, syrupy consistence, oily to the touch, odorless, very sweet 
and slightly warm to the taste. When exposed to the air, it slowly abstracts 
moisture. Specific gravity, not less than 1.260 at 15¡ C. (59¡ F.). Soluble, in 
all proportions, in water or alcohol, also soluble in a mixture of 3 parts of 
alcohol and 1 part of ether, but insoluble in ether, chloroform, carbon 
disulphide, benzin, benzol, and fixed or volatile oils. Glycerin is slowly 
volatilized from an aqueous solution, at or above 100¡ C. (212¡ F.), with the 
vapor of water. Heated by itself to a higher temperature, it yields acrid 
decomposition products, boils at a temperature at or above 165¡ C. (329¡ F.), 
and is finally entirely decomposed and dissipated"-(U. S. P.). The exceedingly 
irritating decomposition products are chiefly due to the formation of acrolein 
(allyl aldehyde, C2H3.CHO), which is also fo

Re: Re: [biofuel] glycerin distillaton

[Barryt]

Thanks Ray

Barryt
  - Original Message - 
  From: Ray Hough 
  To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Monday, June 18, 2001 5:00 AM
  Subject: Re: Re: [biofuel] glycerin distillaton


  Torr is about the same as mm. of Hg pressure.  760 is one atmosphere.  If you 
set up a simple still it will distill at 
  290 C.  Hook up a vacuum pump to lower the pressure and it will distill at 
lower temperatures.
  Ray.

  At 6/17/01 9:20:00 PM, you wrote:
  >Martin, 
  >What is 760 torr etc? I haven't got a clue what that means.
  >
  >Barryt
  >  - Original Message - 
  >  From: Martin Klingensmith 
  >  To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com 
  >  Sent: Saturday, June 16, 2001 10:22 PM
  >  Subject: Re: [biofuel] glycerin distillaton
  >
  >
  >  760 torr, 290 degrees C
  >  20 torr, 182 degrees C
  >  .0025 torr, 50 degrees C
  >  This is the data I could find, I am assuming it would
  >  be quite difficult to do, you would need a good vacuum
  >  pump and a whole lot of heat energy.
  >  -Martin Klingensmith
  >
  >  --- anton and federica <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
  >  > 
  >  > can anyone help me find a table of temperature to
  >  > pressure in order to
  >  > figure out what temp I might use to distill
  >  > glycerin? 
  >  > Has anyone tried it?
  >  > anton
  >  > 
  >
  >
  >  __
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  >
  >
  >
  >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
  >
  >
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  >http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
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  >
  >
  >
  Ray in Atlanta, GA

  "most people occasionally stumble over the truth, 
  but most pick themselves up and continue on 
  as if nothing had ever happened"
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Re: [biofuel] glycerin distillaton

[Barryt]

Thanks Steve for the info.
Barryt
  - Original Message - 
  From: steve spence 
  To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Sunday, June 17, 2001 10:34 PM
  Subject: Re: [biofuel] glycerin distillaton


  An older unit of pressure is the Torr ( 1 Torr = 1 mmHg ). One atmosphere is
  ca. 760 Torr ( i.e. 1 Torr = 133.3 Pa ).

  Steve Spence
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  - Original Message -
  From: "Barryt" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  To: 
  Sent: Sunday, June 17, 2001 7:20 AM
  Subject: Re: [biofuel] glycerin distillaton


  > Martin,
  > What is 760 torr etc? I haven't got a clue what that means.
  >
  > Barryt
  >   - Original Message -
  >   From: Martin Klingensmith
  >   To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
  >   Sent: Saturday, June 16, 2001 10:22 PM
  >   Subject: Re: [biofuel] glycerin distillaton
  >
  >
  >   760 torr, 290 degrees C
  >   20 torr, 182 degrees C
  >   .0025 torr, 50 degrees C
  >   This is the data I could find, I am assuming it would
  >   be quite difficult to do, you would need a good vacuum
  >   pump and a whole lot of heat energy.
  >   -Martin Klingensmith
  >
  >   --- anton and federica <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
  >   >
  >   > can anyone help me find a table of temperature to
  >   > pressure in order to
  >   > figure out what temp I might use to distill
  >   > glycerin?
  >   > Has anyone tried it?
  >   > anton
  >   >
  >
  >
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Re: Re: [biofuel] glycerin distillaton

[Ray Hough]

Torr is about the same as mm. of Hg pressure.  760 is one atmosphere.  If you 
set up a simple still it will distill at 
290 C.  Hook up a vacuum pump to lower the pressure and it will distill at 
lower temperatures.
Ray.

At 6/17/01 9:20:00 PM, you wrote:
>Martin, 
>What is 760 torr etc? I haven't got a clue what that means.
>
>Barryt
>  - Original Message - 
>  From: Martin Klingensmith 
>  To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com 
>  Sent: Saturday, June 16, 2001 10:22 PM
>  Subject: Re: [biofuel] glycerin distillaton
>
>
>  760 torr, 290 degrees C
>  20 torr, 182 degrees C
>  .0025 torr, 50 degrees C
>  This is the data I could find, I am assuming it would
>  be quite difficult to do, you would need a good vacuum
>  pump and a whole lot of heat energy.
>  -Martin Klingensmith
>
>  --- anton and federica <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>  > 
>  > can anyone help me find a table of temperature to
>  > pressure in order to
>  > figure out what temp I might use to distill
>  > glycerin? 
>  > Has anyone tried it?
>  > anton
>  > 
>
>
>  __
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>
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Re: [biofuel] glycerin distillaton

[steve spence]

An older unit of pressure is the Torr ( 1 Torr = 1 mmHg ). One atmosphere is
ca. 760 Torr ( i.e. 1 Torr = 133.3 Pa ).

Steve Spence
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- Original Message -
From: "Barryt" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Sunday, June 17, 2001 7:20 AM
Subject: Re: [biofuel] glycerin distillaton


> Martin,
> What is 760 torr etc? I haven't got a clue what that means.
>
> Barryt
>   - Original Message -
>   From: Martin Klingensmith
>   To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
>   Sent: Saturday, June 16, 2001 10:22 PM
>   Subject: Re: [biofuel] glycerin distillaton
>
>
>   760 torr, 290 degrees C
>   20 torr, 182 degrees C
>   .0025 torr, 50 degrees C
>   This is the data I could find, I am assuming it would
>   be quite difficult to do, you would need a good vacuum
>   pump and a whole lot of heat energy.
>   -Martin Klingensmith
>
>   --- anton and federica <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>   >
>   > can anyone help me find a table of temperature to
>   > pressure in order to
>   > figure out what temp I might use to distill
>   > glycerin?
>   > Has anyone tried it?
>   > anton
>   >
>
>
>   __
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>   Spot the hottest trends in music, movies, and more.
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> Enter to Win!
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>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
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Re: [biofuel] glycerin distillaton

[Barryt]

Martin, 
What is 760 torr etc? I haven't got a clue what that means.

Barryt
  - Original Message - 
  From: Martin Klingensmith 
  To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Saturday, June 16, 2001 10:22 PM
  Subject: Re: [biofuel] glycerin distillaton


  760 torr, 290 degrees C
  20 torr, 182 degrees C
  .0025 torr, 50 degrees C
  This is the data I could find, I am assuming it would
  be quite difficult to do, you would need a good vacuum
  pump and a whole lot of heat energy.
  -Martin Klingensmith

  --- anton and federica <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
  > 
  > can anyone help me find a table of temperature to
  > pressure in order to
  > figure out what temp I might use to distill
  > glycerin? 
  > Has anyone tried it?
  > anton
  > 


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Re: [biofuel] glycerin distillaton

[Martin Klingensmith]

760 torr, 290 degrees C
20 torr, 182 degrees C
.0025 torr, 50 degrees C
This is the data I could find, I am assuming it would
be quite difficult to do, you would need a good vacuum
pump and a whole lot of heat energy.
-Martin Klingensmith

--- anton and federica <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> can anyone help me find a table of temperature to
> pressure in order to
> figure out what temp I might use to distill
> glycerin? 
> Has anyone tried it?
> anton
> 


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[biofuel] glycerin distillaton

[anton and federica]

can anyone help me find a table of temperature to pressure in order to
figure out what temp I might use to distill glycerin? 
Has anyone tried it?
anton

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[biofuel] glycerin and absolute alcohol

[F. Marc de Piolenc]

Dana Linscott wrote:

"Message: 3
   Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 06:07:27 -0700 (PDT)
   From: Dana Linscott <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Glycerine and absolute alcohol


"Lots of interest here!

Am I to understand that this has potential to lower
energy requirments for alcohol production including
ethanol?

If so the ethanol cooperatives in MN would be hugely
interested as it would serve to "delink" ethanol
production with natural gas prices. What a coup if
this pans out."

I'm not sure about the overall energy requirement. After all, the
glycerine has to be regenerated, which requires both vacuum (steam
ejector or shaft-driven pump) and heat. Somebody will have to run
numbers - maybe perform bench-level tests.

What excites me about this is integration. Glycerine is a bye-product of
soap and biodiesel production, and needs to be purified to make it
marketable. If the same apparatus can both regenerate the glycerine used
as adsorbent for making pure ethanol AND make clean glycerine for
market, there is a reduction in capital cost per unit of capacity for an
integrated ethyl ester plant. That spells early returns, which should
make projects of this sort easier to finance. Ever since I heard of
biodiesel, I've been trying to make the numbers come out right so that I
can get some coconut oil plants back up and running. Right now they
refine coco oil for cooking, but Malaysian palm oil is so cheap that
it's displacing coconut oil from the domestic market! Unfortunately,
just grafting a biodiesel plant onto an existing coconut mill doesn't
work, so there needs to be other products making maximum use of existing
capital equipment. 


The "energy balance" is not the whole story in any case. If the energy
input is from a waste product and the energy out is in the form of
high-grade liquid fuel, there is a net gain no matter how many BTUs are
on which side of the ledger. A low pressure steam plant burning ag waste
can furnish both the vacuum and the heat. I'm looking for a site here in
the Phils with about 4 meters of hydro head and about 1/2 ton/min flow,
because liquid driven ejectors can be used for vacuum, saving a lot of
steam. The ejector principle can also be used for deacidification with
fatty acid recovery and for refrigeration. 

There is a similar controversy in the seawater desalination world
(another stray interest of mine). The reverse-osmosis folk are fond of
pointing out that their plants require "less energy" per unit of fresh
water than multiple-effect thermal plants. What they neglect to mention
is that their energy input is in the form of shaft power, while a
thermal plant uses low-grade heat, preferably waste heat. The result is
lots of idle RO capacity after the new owners learn the bottom line cost
of operation.

Best to all,

Marc de Piolenc



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RE: [biofuel] Glycerin and absolute alcohol

[jerry dycus]

  Hi Keith and All,
--- Keith Addison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi Ricardo, Ken, Marc and all
> 
> >As far as I know, sodium chloride cristals are
> naturaly anhidrous. It seems
> >to me that this will not work.
> 
> Sodium chloride is very hygroscopic (absorbs water).
> I'm interested 
> to know how much water it will absorb before it
> becomes saturated. 
 A simple air tight box with a glass top would
solar dry the salt while an AC condenser in the shade
tilted so air flows thru it would allow you to recover
most of the alcohol with some water. After most of the
alcohol has been distilled open the lid and dry the
rest of the water out of the salt.
   Just add the alcohol/ water mix to your next batch
to be dewatered. 
   jerry dycue




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Alcohol permits - was Re: [biofuel] Glycerin and absolute alcohol

[Keith Addison]

Hi Tim and Ronald

Burea  of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms:
http://www.atf.treas.gov/alcohol/index.htm
ATF Online
Alcohol Programs
COLAs | Customer Service | FAQs | Industry Circulars
Information | Permits | Programs | Publications | Regulations
Retailers | Rules | Statistics

PLEASE guys, SNIP stuff that's not relevant to your replies, CHANGE 
the subject header when you change the subject!!! All that stuff went 
to hundreds of people, twice! This is a high-volume list these days, 
please be considerate.

Thanks

Keith Addison
Journey to Forever
Handmade Projects
Tokyo
http://journeytoforever.org/

 

>I would also like to know this.
>-Tim Z
>- Original Message -
>From: "ronald miller sr" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: 
>Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2001 7:54 PM
>Subject: Re: [biofuel] Glycerin and absolute alcohol
>
>
>Could someone help me? I am new to all of this. I want to make ethanol
>legally here in the U.S. What is the quickest and most painless method of
>obtaining a B.A.T.F. permit and what are, if any, the limitation of the
>permit.


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Re: [biofuel] Glycerin and absolute alcohol

[Tim Zarbo]

I would also like to know this.
-Tim Z
- Original Message -
From: "ronald miller sr" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2001 7:54 PM
Subject: Re: [biofuel] Glycerin and absolute alcohol


Could someone help me? I am new to all of this. I want to make ethanol
legally here in the U.S. What is the quickest and most painless method of
obtaining a B.A.T.F. permit and what are, if any, the limitation of the
permit.
- Original Message -
From: Keith Addison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2001 6:31 PM
Subject: RE: [biofuel] Glycerin and absolute alcohol


> Hi Ricardo, Ken, Marc and all
>
> >As far as I know, sodium chloride cristals are naturaly anhidrous. It
seems
> >to me that this will not work.
>
> Sodium chloride is very hygroscopic (absorbs water). I'm interested
> to know how much water it will absorb before it becomes saturated.
> Mathewson provides some information on using salt in "The Manual for
> the Home and Farm Production of Alcohol Fuel" (chapter 12).
> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library/ethanol_manual/manual_ToC.html
>
> "A second method takes advantage of the fact that water will dissolve
> in most salts, but ethanol will not. Therefore, water can be removed
> (although not entirely) by filtering the alcohol/water through dry
> salt. Almost any 'hygroscopic' (water absorbing) material such as
> calcium salt, various sulphates, phosphates and similar materials
> will work. However, common rocksalt, such as used in water softeners
> is cheap and available. An apparatus such as described in Chapter 7
> for sprouting malt can be used. Fill the drum or container with
> rocksalt. The alcohol/water is poured in at the top and filters down
> through the salt. Relatively water-free alcohol is collected through
> holes or a valve at the bottom of the container. Remember that the
> salt must be dry. After absorbing water from a certain amount of
> alcohol, the salt must be re-dried either in an oven or by spreading
> it out in the sun."
>
> This appeals because salt is cheap, ubiquitous and easily dried. But
> the point about how much alcohol will stick to the crystals is an
> interesting one.
>
> Mathewson first describes the industry method of mixing benzene with
> the ethanol to render it miscible with gasolene. Benzene's nasty
> stuff indeed, but it seems that some gasolene in the ethanol won't
> disturb the transesterification process, so no doubt some benzene
> wouldn't disturb it either. Benzene's probably easy to get and cheap
> - or at least it used to be (like quicklime!!). Mathewson says: "A
> good system might be to use both of the methods described above.
> First, most of the water in the alcohol is removed by the salt
> method, and then the blend is prepared with benzene. The more water
> that can be removed from the alcohol, the less benzene will be
> needed. Benzene will have to be purchased (the cheapest technical
> grade is fine) and can be used only once. The rocksalt can be dried
> and used many times."
>
> >FYI I tried to dehydrate 95% ethanol with Copper Sulphate, that has 5
mols
> >H2O, previously dehydrated by calcination.  It didn«t work. You need a
lot
> >of anhydrous salt and you loose a lot of alcohol sticked to the crystals.
> >Later I thought to use anhydrous calcium chloride, but now there are
several
> >ideas discussed in this forum, that I think will work better.
>
> Are copper sulphate and calcium chloride more absorbent than sodium
> chloride? Which is the most absorbent salt?
>
> Marc's ref on glycerine is most interesting, though it brings us back
> to the original question of purifying the glyc. However, maybe simply
> boiling off the water content would work? Much easier than distilling
> the glycerine.
>
> The other method is using corn grits:
> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library/ethanol_grits.html
>
> But this, as with 3A zeolyte etc, means treating the vapour, not the
> liquid ethanol: ie, an add-on to the distillation process.
>
> >Ref. the translation, Marc will do it much better !!
>
> I get the feeling Marc isn't mad about the idea, and who can blame
> him - or you, Ricardo! :-( Ah well, I guess it's a good thing for
> this to happen to us hegemonistic Anglophiles occasionally (often?),
> puts things in perspective, eh?
>
> >Ricardo.
> >- Original Message -
> >From: Ken Provost <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >To: 
> >Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2001 1:23 PM
> >Subject: RE: [biofuel] Glycerin and absolute alcohol
> >
> >
> > > >
> > > >By the way, Ken Provost, if you're reading this, sal

Re: [biofuel] Glycerin and absolute alcohol

[ronald miller sr]

Could someone help me? I am new to all of this. I want to make ethanol
legally here in the U.S. What is the quickest and most painless method of
obtaining a B.A.T.F. permit and what are, if any, the limitation of the
permit.
- Original Message -
From: Keith Addison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2001 6:31 PM
Subject: RE: [biofuel] Glycerin and absolute alcohol


> Hi Ricardo, Ken, Marc and all
>
> >As far as I know, sodium chloride cristals are naturaly anhidrous. It
seems
> >to me that this will not work.
>
> Sodium chloride is very hygroscopic (absorbs water). I'm interested
> to know how much water it will absorb before it becomes saturated.
> Mathewson provides some information on using salt in "The Manual for
> the Home and Farm Production of Alcohol Fuel" (chapter 12).
> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library/ethanol_manual/manual_ToC.html
>
> "A second method takes advantage of the fact that water will dissolve
> in most salts, but ethanol will not. Therefore, water can be removed
> (although not entirely) by filtering the alcohol/water through dry
> salt. Almost any 'hygroscopic' (water absorbing) material such as
> calcium salt, various sulphates, phosphates and similar materials
> will work. However, common rocksalt, such as used in water softeners
> is cheap and available. An apparatus such as described in Chapter 7
> for sprouting malt can be used. Fill the drum or container with
> rocksalt. The alcohol/water is poured in at the top and filters down
> through the salt. Relatively water-free alcohol is collected through
> holes or a valve at the bottom of the container. Remember that the
> salt must be dry. After absorbing water from a certain amount of
> alcohol, the salt must be re-dried either in an oven or by spreading
> it out in the sun."
>
> This appeals because salt is cheap, ubiquitous and easily dried. But
> the point about how much alcohol will stick to the crystals is an
> interesting one.
>
> Mathewson first describes the industry method of mixing benzene with
> the ethanol to render it miscible with gasolene. Benzene's nasty
> stuff indeed, but it seems that some gasolene in the ethanol won't
> disturb the transesterification process, so no doubt some benzene
> wouldn't disturb it either. Benzene's probably easy to get and cheap
> - or at least it used to be (like quicklime!!). Mathewson says: "A
> good system might be to use both of the methods described above.
> First, most of the water in the alcohol is removed by the salt
> method, and then the blend is prepared with benzene. The more water
> that can be removed from the alcohol, the less benzene will be
> needed. Benzene will have to be purchased (the cheapest technical
> grade is fine) and can be used only once. The rocksalt can be dried
> and used many times."
>
> >FYI I tried to dehydrate 95% ethanol with Copper Sulphate, that has 5
mols
> >H2O, previously dehydrated by calcination.  It didn«t work. You need a
lot
> >of anhydrous salt and you loose a lot of alcohol sticked to the crystals.
> >Later I thought to use anhydrous calcium chloride, but now there are
several
> >ideas discussed in this forum, that I think will work better.
>
> Are copper sulphate and calcium chloride more absorbent than sodium
> chloride? Which is the most absorbent salt?
>
> Marc's ref on glycerine is most interesting, though it brings us back
> to the original question of purifying the glyc. However, maybe simply
> boiling off the water content would work? Much easier than distilling
> the glycerine.
>
> The other method is using corn grits:
> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library/ethanol_grits.html
>
> But this, as with 3A zeolyte etc, means treating the vapour, not the
> liquid ethanol: ie, an add-on to the distillation process.
>
> >Ref. the translation, Marc will do it much better !!
>
> I get the feeling Marc isn't mad about the idea, and who can blame
> him - or you, Ricardo! :-( Ah well, I guess it's a good thing for
> this to happen to us hegemonistic Anglophiles occasionally (often?),
> puts things in perspective, eh?
>
> >Ricardo.
> >- Original Message -
> >From: Ken Provost <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >To: 
> >Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2001 1:23 PM
> >Subject: RE: [biofuel] Glycerin and absolute alcohol
> >
> >
> > > >
> > > >By the way, Ken Provost, if you're reading this, salt (sodium
> > > >chloride) is cheap and obtainable enough, and easy to dry. Any idea
> > > >how much water a pound/kilo of salt would absorb?
> > > >
> > >
> > > I rea

RE: [biofuel] Glycerin and absolute alcohol

[Keith Addison]

Hi Ricardo, Ken, Marc and all

>As far as I know, sodium chloride cristals are naturaly anhidrous. It seems
>to me that this will not work.

Sodium chloride is very hygroscopic (absorbs water). I'm interested 
to know how much water it will absorb before it becomes saturated. 
Mathewson provides some information on using salt in "The Manual for 
the Home and Farm Production of Alcohol Fuel" (chapter 12).
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library/ethanol_manual/manual_ToC.html

"A second method takes advantage of the fact that water will dissolve 
in most salts, but ethanol will not. Therefore, water can be removed 
(although not entirely) by filtering the alcohol/water through dry 
salt. Almost any 'hygroscopic' (water absorbing) material such as 
calcium salt, various sulphates, phosphates and similar materials 
will work. However, common rocksalt, such as used in water softeners 
is cheap and available. An apparatus such as described in Chapter 7 
for sprouting malt can be used. Fill the drum or container with 
rocksalt. The alcohol/water is poured in at the top and filters down 
through the salt. Relatively water-free alcohol is collected through 
holes or a valve at the bottom of the container. Remember that the 
salt must be dry. After absorbing water from a certain amount of 
alcohol, the salt must be re-dried either in an oven or by spreading 
it out in the sun."

This appeals because salt is cheap, ubiquitous and easily dried. But 
the point about how much alcohol will stick to the crystals is an 
interesting one.

Mathewson first describes the industry method of mixing benzene with 
the ethanol to render it miscible with gasolene. Benzene's nasty 
stuff indeed, but it seems that some gasolene in the ethanol won't 
disturb the transesterification process, so no doubt some benzene 
wouldn't disturb it either. Benzene's probably easy to get and cheap 
- or at least it used to be (like quicklime!!). Mathewson says: "A 
good system might be to use both of the methods described above. 
First, most of the water in the alcohol is removed by the salt 
method, and then the blend is prepared with benzene. The more water 
that can be removed from the alcohol, the less benzene will be 
needed. Benzene will have to be purchased (the cheapest technical 
grade is fine) and can be used only once. The rocksalt can be dried 
and used many times."

>FYI I tried to dehydrate 95% ethanol with Copper Sulphate, that has 5 mols
>H2O, previously dehydrated by calcination.  It didn«t work. You need a lot
>of anhydrous salt and you loose a lot of alcohol sticked to the crystals.
>Later I thought to use anhydrous calcium chloride, but now there are several
>ideas discussed in this forum, that I think will work better.

Are copper sulphate and calcium chloride more absorbent than sodium 
chloride? Which is the most absorbent salt?

Marc's ref on glycerine is most interesting, though it brings us back 
to the original question of purifying the glyc. However, maybe simply 
boiling off the water content would work? Much easier than distilling 
the glycerine.

The other method is using corn grits:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library/ethanol_grits.html

But this, as with 3A zeolyte etc, means treating the vapour, not the 
liquid ethanol: ie, an add-on to the distillation process.

>Ref. the translation, Marc will do it much better !!

I get the feeling Marc isn't mad about the idea, and who can blame 
him - or you, Ricardo! :-( Ah well, I guess it's a good thing for 
this to happen to us hegemonistic Anglophiles occasionally (often?), 
puts things in perspective, eh?

>Ricardo.
>- Original Message -----
>From: Ken Provost <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: 
>Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2001 1:23 PM
>Subject: RE: [biofuel] Glycerin and absolute alcohol
>
>
> > >
> > >By the way, Ken Provost, if you're reading this, salt (sodium
> > >chloride) is cheap and obtainable enough, and easy to dry. Any idea
> > >how much water a pound/kilo of salt would absorb?
> > >
> >
> > I read EVERYTHING :-)! Thx for reminding me -- I actually bought a big
> > box of rock salt to play with, and it's been languishing in the pantry.
> > I'll get on it this weekend -- it wouldn't have to be very efficient,
> > considering the cost, as long as you don't lose too much alcohol just
> > sticking to the crystals...

:-) Good luck, look forward to the results.

Best wishes

Keith Addison
Journey to Forever
Handmade Projects
Tokyo
http://journeytoforever.org/

 


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RE: [biofuel] Glycerin and absolute alcohol

[Ricardo Tournier]

As far as I know, sodium chloride cristals are naturaly anhidrous. It seems
to me that this will not work.
FYI I tried to dehydrate 95% ethanol with Copper Sulphate, that has 5 mols
H2O, previously dehydrated by calcination.  It didn«t work. You need a lot
of anhydrous salt and you loose a lot of alcohol sticked to the crystals.
Later I thought to use anhydrous calcium chloride, but now there are several
ideas discussed in this forum, that I think will work better.

Ref. the translation, Marc will do it much better !!
Ricardo.
- Original Message -
From: Ken Provost <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2001 1:23 PM
Subject: RE: [biofuel] Glycerin and absolute alcohol


> >
> >By the way, Ken Provost, if you're reading this, salt (sodium
> >chloride) is cheap and obtainable enough, and easy to dry. Any idea
> >how much water a pound/kilo of salt would absorb?
> >
>
> I read EVERYTHING :-)! Thx for reminding me -- I actually bought a big
> box of rock salt to play with, and it's been languishing in the pantry.
> I'll get on it this weekend -- it wouldn't have to be very efficient,
> considering the cost, as long as you don't lose too much alcohol just
> sticking to the crystals...
>
> Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
> To unsubscribe, send an email to:
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>



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RE: [biofuel] Glycerin and absolute alcohol

[Ken Provost]

>
>By the way, Ken Provost, if you're reading this, salt (sodium
>chloride) is cheap and obtainable enough, and easy to dry. Any idea
>how much water a pound/kilo of salt would absorb?
>

I read EVERYTHING :-)! Thx for reminding me -- I actually bought a big
box of rock salt to play with, and it's been languishing in the pantry.
I'll get on it this weekend -- it wouldn't have to be very efficient,
considering the cost, as long as you don't lose too much alcohol just
sticking to the crystals...

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RE: [biofuel] Glycerin and absolute alcohol

[Keith Addison]

>Thanks Marc for your contribution with this "oldtimer".
>If you can scan the relevant pages, I«ll appreciate it very much.
>Regards.
>Ricardo Tournier

Yes, indeed, thankyou Marc. If we could nail down the purifying and 
impurities issues, the whole process could be almost self-contained, 
the holy grail. Any chance of your translating it to English, 
Ricardo? :-) Maybe Babelfish would do most of the work (definitely 
not all).

By the way, Ken Provost, if you're reading this, salt (sodium 
chloride) is cheap and obtainable enough, and easy to dry. Any idea 
how much water a pound/kilo of salt would absorb?

Best

Keith Addison
Journey to Forever
Handmade Projects
Tokyo
http://journeytoforever.org/



>- Original Message -
>From: F. Marc de Piolenc <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: 
>Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2001 12:36 AM
>Subject: [biofuel] Glycerin and absolute alcohol
>
>
> > All the recent traffic about glycerol and about absolute alcohol was
> > making my brain itch - I had seen something, somewhere that actually
> > tied those two things together.
> >
> > Here it is, from E. Boullanger: Distillerie Agricole et Industrielle
> > (Paris: Ballire, 1924), translated rather freely from the French:
> >
> > "But according to Mr. Mariller, the use of water-adsorbing substances
> > instead of alcohol adsorbing substances [for separating alcohol/water
> > mixtures by adsorption] must necessarily be more economical, for with
> > alcohol-adsorbents water, the third substance [adsorbent] and the
> > alcohol/ substance mixture must be evaporated and the mixture
> > subsequently fractionated to recover pure alcohol. This results in
> > additional vaporization which penalizes the overall cost of the method.
> > Contrarily, with water adsorbents, only water and a little entrained
> > alcohol (if any) must be subsequently vaporized; steam consumption then
> > falls to 30 kg per hectoliter of alcohol, or approximately frs 0.40 at
> > the current [1924] price of coal.
> >
> > These considerations led Mr. Mariller to his absolute alcohol production
> > process by dehydration using glycerine. Alcoholic vapors passing through
> > pure glycerine yield 99.2¡ alcohol directly, and merely adding potassium
> > carbonate, for example, to the glycerine is sufficient for easily
> > obtaining 99.8¡. The glycerine and the salt that it holds in solution
> > are regenerated and returned to the circuit."
> >
> > It goes on to describe in detail the Mariller-Granger process and the
> > apparatus used in it. If this is of interest to anybody, I will continue
> > the translation, or simply scan the relevant pages for any francophone
> > out there.
> >
> > It has not escaped me that this information begs the question of how to
> > obtain glycerine of sufficient purity in the first place. Obviously,
> > further research is needed. If we're lucky, the impurities in the crude
> > glycerine from ethyl ester production will be benign. and the crude
> > stock will thus be usable in alcohol production as is. If not, perhaps
> > only one impurity that can be easily removed is a problem. Perhaps...
> >
> > Best to all,
> > Marc de Piolenc
> > Iligan, Philippines


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RE: [biofuel] Glycerin and absolute alcohol

[Ricardo Tournier]

Thanks Marc for your contribution with this "oldtimer".
If you can scan the relevant pages, I«ll appreciate it very much.
Regards.
Ricardo Tournier

- Original Message -
From: F. Marc de Piolenc <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2001 12:36 AM
Subject: [biofuel] Glycerin and absolute alcohol


> All the recent traffic about glycerol and about absolute alcohol was
> making my brain itch - I had seen something, somewhere that actually
> tied those two things together.
>
> Here it is, from E. Boullanger: Distillerie Agricole et Industrielle
> (Paris: Ballire, 1924), translated rather freely from the French:
>
> "But according to Mr. Mariller, the use of water-adsorbing substances
> instead of alcohol adsorbing substances [for separating alcohol/water
> mixtures by adsorption] must necessarily be more economical, for with
> alcohol-adsorbents water, the third substance [adsorbent] and the
> alcohol/ substance mixture must be evaporated and the mixture
> subsequently fractionated to recover pure alcohol. This results in
> additional vaporization which penalizes the overall cost of the method.
> Contrarily, with water adsorbents, only water and a little entrained
> alcohol (if any) must be subsequently vaporized; steam consumption then
> falls to 30 kg per hectoliter of alcohol, or approximately frs 0.40 at
> the current [1924] price of coal.
>
> These considerations led Mr. Mariller to his absolute alcohol production
> process by dehydration using glycerine. Alcoholic vapors passing through
> pure glycerine yield 99.2¡ alcohol directly, and merely adding potassium
> carbonate, for example, to the glycerine is sufficient for easily
> obtaining 99.8¡. The glycerine and the salt that it holds in solution
> are regenerated and returned to the circuit."
>
> It goes on to describe in detail the Mariller-Granger process and the
> apparatus used in it. If this is of interest to anybody, I will continue
> the translation, or simply scan the relevant pages for any francophone
> out there.
>
> It has not escaped me that this information begs the question of how to
> obtain glycerine of sufficient purity in the first place. Obviously,
> further research is needed. If we're lucky, the impurities in the crude
> glycerine from ethyl ester production will be benign. and the crude
> stock will thus be usable in alcohol production as is. If not, perhaps
> only one impurity that can be easily removed is a problem. Perhaps...
>
> Best to all,
> Marc de Piolenc
> Iligan, Philippines
>
>
>
> Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
> To unsubscribe, send an email to:
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>


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[biofuel] Glycerin and absolute alcohol

[F. Marc de Piolenc]

All the recent traffic about glycerol and about absolute alcohol was
making my brain itch - I had seen something, somewhere that actually
tied those two things together.

Here it is, from E. Boullanger: Distillerie Agricole et Industrielle
(Paris: Ballire, 1924), translated rather freely from the French:

"But according to Mr. Mariller, the use of water-adsorbing substances
instead of alcohol adsorbing substances [for separating alcohol/water
mixtures by adsorption] must necessarily be more economical, for with
alcohol-adsorbents water, the third substance [adsorbent] and the
alcohol/ substance mixture must be evaporated and the mixture
subsequently fractionated to recover pure alcohol. This results in
additional vaporization which penalizes the overall cost of the method.
Contrarily, with water adsorbents, only water and a little entrained
alcohol (if any) must be subsequently vaporized; steam consumption then
falls to 30 kg per hectoliter of alcohol, or approximately frs 0.40 at
the current [1924] price of coal.

These considerations led Mr. Mariller to his absolute alcohol production
process by dehydration using glycerine. Alcoholic vapors passing through
pure glycerine yield 99.2¡ alcohol directly, and merely adding potassium
carbonate, for example, to the glycerine is sufficient for easily
obtaining 99.8¡. The glycerine and the salt that it holds in solution
are regenerated and returned to the circuit."

It goes on to describe in detail the Mariller-Granger process and the
apparatus used in it. If this is of interest to anybody, I will continue
the translation, or simply scan the relevant pages for any francophone
out there.

It has not escaped me that this information begs the question of how to
obtain glycerine of sufficient purity in the first place. Obviously,
further research is needed. If we're lucky, the impurities in the crude
glycerine from ethyl ester production will be benign. and the crude
stock will thus be usable in alcohol production as is. If not, perhaps
only one impurity that can be easily removed is a problem. Perhaps...

Best to all,
Marc de Piolenc
Iligan, Philippines



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Re: [biofuel] glycerin and red worms

[Keith Addison]

>CAWKI?

Good heavens, Ed - Civilisation As We Know It. Demise generally dated 
circa 1970. 

Keith Addison
Journey to Forever
Handmade Projects
Tokyo
http://journeytoforever.org/


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Re: [biofuel] glycerin and red worms

[Tim Zarbo]

poor LIL GUYS ARE JUST GONNA HAVE TO LEARN TO SAY" 'VE HAD 'NUFF THANKSH"

OOPS!! sorry bout the caps :)
-TZ
- Original Message -
From: "Biofuels" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Friday, May 04, 2001 6:17 PM
Subject: Re: [biofuel] glycerin and red worms


> Was the glycerol free from methanol.
> If not, the worms probably died from alcohol poisoning.
>
>
>
> Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
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>
>


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Re: [biofuel] glycerin and red worms

[Ed Beggs]

CAWKI?

> 


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Re: [biofuel] glycerin and red worms

[Keith Addison]

> > Sue if you will, see if I care! They were all volunteers, doing their
> > bit for science, for the world, for the future of CAWKI, and for me.
> > They signed affidavits before willingly stepping into the fray, one
> > and all. Okay, so I used a whip, but there were no witnesses.
> >
> > Keith Addison
> > Journey to Forever
> > Handmade Projects
> > Tokyo
> > http://journeytoforever.org/
>
>Sorry Keith didnt your mum tell you that you shouldnt write notes or
>e-mails. We now have the evidence above. Please post affidavits or I will
>have to run with Ed B  and WORMS on this one. Perhaps the Glycerin contained
>ethanol  not methanol and you gave them a wiff rather than a whip before
>they signed. What a way to go. I suppose it is only in Japan you could get
>kamikaze worms. I know people in the rest of the world use them for fish
>bait in places but for all the wriggling they do it is hardly worth the
>effort. Maybe they are just latent politicians at heart.
>B.r.,  David

I deny everything. Also I've destroyed the evidence (never had SWEET 
wormburgers before!). Also I've gone into hiding. So do your worst!

All these worms are of European origin, by the way, they're all the 
same. The wriggling is held by the fishing fraternity to be an asset 
- worm bait farms do good business. I think they're too smart to be 
politicians, David. Re which, Charles Darwin wasn't too impressed 
with his "Origin of Species", he reckoned his magnum opus was another 
book, with the catchy title "The Formation of Vegetable Mould Through 
the Action of Worms with Observations on their Habits", the result of 
40 years of most elegant experiments. He concluded that they're 
intelligent! And, reading it, you're forced to agree. It's a real 
delight to read. It's online, here:
http://www.soilandhealth.org/01aglibrary/010115darwin/fvm.html
The Formation of Vegetable Mould

And I think they don't have hearts, as such. Ah well. Anyone wants to 
know more about red worms and compost and so on (worth knowing!), 
lots of good information here:

http://journeytoforever.org/compost_worm.html

And this is a great how-to book, full text online:
http://journeytoforever.org/farm_library.html#oliver

Best

Keith Addison
Journey to Forever
Handmade Projects
Tokyo
http://journeytoforever.org/

 


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Re: [biofuel] glycerin and red worms

[David Reid]

> Sue if you will, see if I care! They were all volunteers, doing their
> bit for science, for the world, for the future of CAWKI, and for me.
> They signed affidavits before willingly stepping into the fray, one
> and all. Okay, so I used a whip, but there were no witnesses.
>
> Keith Addison
> Journey to Forever
> Handmade Projects
> Tokyo
> http://journeytoforever.org/

Sorry Keith didnt your mum tell you that you shouldnt write notes or
e-mails. We now have the evidence above. Please post affidavits or I will
have to run with Ed B  and WORMS on this one. Perhaps the Glycerin contained
ethanol  not methanol and you gave them a wiff rather than a whip before
they signed. What a way to go. I suppose it is only in Japan you could get
kamikaze worms. I know people in the rest of the world use them for fish
bait in places but for all the wriggling they do it is hardly worth the
effort. Maybe they are just latent politicians at heart.
B.r.,  David


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Re: [biofuel] glycerin and red worms

[Keith Addison]

>Stop the madness!! W.O.R.M.S.  (World Organisation for the Rights of
>Muckeating Species)  strongly objects to this sort of testing!
>
>;-)
>
>Ed B.

Sue if you will, see if I care! They were all volunteers, doing their 
bit for science, for the world, for the future of CAWKI, and for me. 
They signed affidavits before willingly stepping into the fray, one 
and all. Okay, so I used a whip, but there were no witnesses.

Keith Addison
Journey to Forever
Handmade Projects
Tokyo
http://journeytoforever.org/



>- Original Message -
>From: "Keith Addison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: 
>Sent: Friday, May 04, 2001 11:13 AM
>Subject: [biofuel] glycerin and red worms
>
>
> > Kills 'em. :-(
> >
> > I put some red worms (manure worms, Eisenia foetida) in dry cocopeat


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Re: [biofuel] glycerin and red worms

[Keith Addison]

Terry wrote:

>Was the glycerol free from methanol.
>If not, the worms probably died from alcohol poisoning.

Yes, I used pharmaceutical-grade glycerine rather than biod WVO 
gunge, in the interests of reducing variables. Haven't got any biod 
stuff right now anyway (soon).

Best

Keith Addison
Journey to Forever
Handmade Projects
Tokyo
http://journeytoforever.org/

 


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Re: [biofuel] glycerin

[David Reid]

David C,
 Thats a good reference book if thats what you want. There may
be better around for all I know as I have not looked too hard and am not
that converasant with this particular specialised topic. Unfortunately this
is one of the small prices you pay for living in a small country with a
small population. In some ways quite a good thing though as you learn to be
more self reliant and just get on with things rather than complaining. There
is still a lot more information available in a good technical library than
on the internet. I find with computers a lot of people are just plain lazy
and rather than exercise their mind and get the satisfaction of learning
something themselsves they would sooner ask someone else. If you are driving
1800 miles a week I can understand your reluctance to jump in a vehicle to
go to the library and owning a good book makes good sense as you can return
to it as and when you have time and want.
B.r., David

> Of  course  you`re  right,  but  I  drive  300
> miles  a  day  6  days  a  week,  and  I  am
> just  to  worn  out  to  take  a  hike  into  the
> big  town  in  what  little  spare  time  I  have.
> The  small  libraries  out  here  in  the  fringe
> suburbs  could  probably  get  the  book  so
> I`ll  think  about  it.  I  go  back  to  the  time
> before  computers  so  I`m  real  fond  of  books
> especially  reference  works  like  you  have
> suggested,  and  I  would  probably  just  like
> to  have  the  book  to  add  to  my  collection!
>
> David  Cruse
> - Original Message -
> From: "David Reid" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: 
> Sent: Saturday, May 05, 2001 12:56 AM
> Subject: Re: [biofuel] glycerin



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Re: [biofuel] glycerin

[david e cruse]

Hi  David  R.

Of  course  you`re  right,  but  I  drive  300
miles  a  day  6  days  a  week,  and  I  am
just  to  worn  out  to  take  a  hike  into  the
big  town  in  what  little  spare  time  I  have.
The  small  libraries  out  here  in  the  fringe
suburbs  could  probably  get  the  book  so
I`ll  think  about  it.  I  go  back  to  the  time
before  computers  so  I`m  real  fond  of  books
especially  reference  works  like  you  have
suggested,  and  I  would  probably  just  like
to  have  the  book  to  add  to  my  collection!

David  Cruse
- Original Message -
From: "David Reid" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Saturday, May 05, 2001 12:56 AM
Subject: Re: [biofuel] glycerin


> Hi David C,
>   Before racing out and spending all your money try your
> local large city library. After all this is what you pay your taxes and
> rates for. Also try your local University, Chemistry, and Engineering
school
> libraries. Most loan books on payment of a small fee. America isnt at the
> forefront of technology because Americans are that much smarter (most of
us
> know otherwise) but because it has invested heavily in its educational
> institutions. Utilise the resources open to you. Most librarians and
> especially those who have been at the job a number of years are extremely
> knowledgeable and can be extremely helpful if approached in the right
> manner. A sincere and genuine thankyou works wonders and more often than
not
> ensures you get good attention next time. Sure like anywhere today there
are
> people who are just there to pick up their pay packets and there are
others
> who genuinely like what they are doing and try to be of real assistance.
The
> trick is sorting them out so you dont waste time next time and you get the
> info you need and want. Also in case you are not fully aware of it most
> libraries can source books from other libraries and the National reference
> libraries on payment of a small fee. They may also be able to suggest far
> better books than me.
> B.r., David
>
>
> Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
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>
>


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Re: [biofuel] glycerin

[David Reid]

Hi David C,
  Before racing out and spending all your money try your
local large city library. After all this is what you pay your taxes and
rates for. Also try your local University, Chemistry, and Engineering school
libraries. Most loan books on payment of a small fee. America isnt at the
forefront of technology because Americans are that much smarter (most of us
know otherwise) but because it has invested heavily in its educational
institutions. Utilise the resources open to you. Most librarians and
especially those who have been at the job a number of years are extremely
knowledgeable and can be extremely helpful if approached in the right
manner. A sincere and genuine thankyou works wonders and more often than not
ensures you get good attention next time. Sure like anywhere today there are
people who are just there to pick up their pay packets and there are others
who genuinely like what they are doing and try to be of real assistance. The
trick is sorting them out so you dont waste time next time and you get the
info you need and want. Also in case you are not fully aware of it most
libraries can source books from other libraries and the National reference
libraries on payment of a small fee. They may also be able to suggest far
better books than me.
B.r., David


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Re: [biofuel] glycerin

[david e cruse]

Hi  David  R.,

That  sounds  like  some  great  reading ! Can`t
wait  to  get  a  copy .  It`ll  be  next  week  before
I  get  over  to  the  book  store .  In  the  meantime
I`m  going  to  get  that  info  about  the  lipase
enzyme  catalyst , and  the  process  to  turn  soap
into  biodiesel.  I`ll  keep  you  posted  on  my
search,  and  everyone  else  of  course  also.

David  Cruse
- Original Message -
From: "David Reid" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Friday, May 04, 2001 8:48 PM
Subject: Re: [biofuel] glycerin


> David C,
>   The chapter you need to concentrate on is Ch 8: "The
recovery
> and refining of glycerine". 62 pages in total covering a wide range of
> topics in relation to Glycerine including: Analytical tests and
> specifications, Purification of soap lyes and sweet waters, Evaporation of
> Purified liquors to crude glycerine (includes removal and recovery of
salt),
> Treatment of crude glycerine to remove low molecular mass fatty acids,
> DISTILLATION OF GLYCERINE (23 pages of good info and line drawings),
> Bleaching and the treatment of distillates with ion-exchange resins to
> upgrade quality, and Production of refined grades of glycerine without
> distillation (ion exclusion, ion exchange, and reverse osmosis).
> Forget Britannica, that is for people who only want a bit of general
> knowledge and a general intro. A book like the Woolatt book if it dosnt
> provide enough info points to and leads to more specific info and
processes.
> The trouble with man is not that he is stupid (which he certainly is) but
> that half of have never learned to think, or that we read inferior books
or
> have inferior teachers. Half the teachers out there should still be at
> school. The best teachers are an active mind and the University of Life.
> While solving this problem on a large commercial scale is easy it
certainly
> is not so easy on a smaller scale.
> B.r.,  David
>
>
> Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
> To unsubscribe, send an email to:
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>


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Re: [biofuel] glycerin

[David Reid]

David C,
  The chapter you need to concentrate on is Ch 8: "The recovery
and refining of glycerine". 62 pages in total covering a wide range of
topics in relation to Glycerine including: Analytical tests and
specifications, Purification of soap lyes and sweet waters, Evaporation of
Purified liquors to crude glycerine (includes removal and recovery of salt),
Treatment of crude glycerine to remove low molecular mass fatty acids,
DISTILLATION OF GLYCERINE (23 pages of good info and line drawings),
Bleaching and the treatment of distillates with ion-exchange resins to
upgrade quality, and Production of refined grades of glycerine without
distillation (ion exclusion, ion exchange, and reverse osmosis).
Forget Britannica, that is for people who only want a bit of general
knowledge and a general intro. A book like the Woolatt book if it dosnt
provide enough info points to and leads to more specific info and processes.
The trouble with man is not that he is stupid (which he certainly is) but
that half of have never learned to think, or that we read inferior books or
have inferior teachers. Half the teachers out there should still be at
school. The best teachers are an active mind and the University of Life.
While solving this problem on a large commercial scale is easy it certainly
is not so easy on a smaller scale.
B.r.,  David


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Re: [biofuel] glycerin and red worms

[Biofuels]

Was the glycerol free from methanol.
If not, the worms probably died from alcohol poisoning.



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Re: [biofuel] glycerin and red worms

[NBT - E. Beggs]

Stop the madness!! W.O.R.M.S.  (World Organisation for the Rights of
Muckeating Species)  strongly objects to this sort of testing!

;-)

Ed B.



- Original Message -
From: "Keith Addison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Friday, May 04, 2001 11:13 AM
Subject: [biofuel] glycerin and red worms


> Kills 'em. :-(
>
> I put some red worms (manure worms, Eisenia foetida) in dry cocopeat



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[biofuel] glycerin and red worms

[Keith Addison]

Kills 'em. :-(

I put some red worms (manure worms, Eisenia foetida) in dry cocopeat 
moss moistened with 75% water and 25% glycerine, with a bit of lime 
and a small amount of soil for inoculation. With 100% water they're 
quite happy in that mixture, but with the glycerine they were dead in 
a few hours. I'll leave the mix for awhile and see if the soil 
micro-organisms break down the glycerine enough to make any 
difference.

Best

Keith Addison
Journey to Forever
Handmade Projects
Tokyo
http://journeytoforever.org/


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Re: [biofuel] glycerin

[david e cruse]

Hi  David  R.

Thank  you  for  taking  the  time, and  I  agree
on  the  small  plant  scenario.  I  will  try  to  get
the  first  book  you  mention  asap.  There  is  some
good  info  at  www.britannica.com . I  started  out
by  just  entering  glycerol, and  that  is  a  short
entry,  three  paragraphs,  but  at  the  bottom  of
the  paragraphs  it  says  * click  here  for  more
info * . That  takes  you  to  " soap  and  detergent "
the  third  paragraph  in  that  is  very  interesting
as  it  tells  how  to  separate  the  glycerin  from  the
soap  with  a  saltwater  solution.  If  you  have  time
check  it  out.  The  people  at  www.arserrc.gov
filed  for  a  patent  ( 08/631,498 )  on  4-12-1996
for  a  process  for  "Biodiesel  Production with
Lipases"  and  they  also  were  working  on  a
process  for  " Soapstock  for  Biodiesel  Production ".
I  tried  to  find  the  patent  I  mentioned  at
www.uspto.gov  but  couldn`t  locate  it . The
website  says  that  for  a  fee  you  can  get  a  copy
of  the  patents  and  get  a  license  to  use  them.
I  was  very  aggravated  in  not  being  able  to  find
any  more  info!  The  soapstock  thing  sounded
terrific ! I  also  found  that  the  NREL  in  Colorado
also  has  this  technology,  the  process  with  the
lipase  catalyst . I`m  sure  a  lot  of  us  would  like
to  know  the  details  on  both  these  things,
especially  the  soapstock  process !!

David  Cruse
- Original Message -
From: "David Reid" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Friday, May 04, 2001 5:05 AM
Subject: Re: [biofuel] glycerin


>
> Hi David C,
>   Went to town this afternoon and dug out the books on
> Glyceryn. Couldnt find one of the ones I wanted but found the other which
is
> excellent and I would recommend, Dug out 4 books, 2 on Glycerine, and 2 on
> Fatty acids or Fatty Alcohols, which are related topics, especially when
it
> comes to Biod.
> Titles:
> 1) The Manufacture of Soaps, Other Detergents and Glycerine by Edgar
> Woolatt. (formerly Development Manager of Lever Brothers).  Published by
> Ellis Horwood Ltd, and Halstead Press, div of John Wiley and Sons 1985,
ISBN
> 0-85312-567-8 (EHL) and ISBN 0-470-20234-3. An excellent and thoroughly
> authoritive text.
> 2)Glycerine by S.W. Koppe Translated from the German. Published by Scott,
> Greenwood & Son, London 1915
> A really old book I normally would not have bothered with but has some
> interesting chapters titled: Compounds and decomposition products of
> Glycerine, The production of Glycerine,  The Production of Pure Glycerine,
> and Various applications of Glycerine. Had not seen it before as it was
down
> in the basement so will at least have a quick scan of it.
>
> 3) Industrial Fatty Acids and their Applications edited by E. Scott
> Pattison, and published by Reinhold Publishing Corp 1959
> Some good photos and line drawings of commercial operations in the States
> 4)Fatty Alcohols, Raw Materials, Methods, Uses. Published by Henkel,
> Dusseldorf, Germany 1982
> Some good compositional data of various oils etc.
>
> The first one is the one I would look for and you should learn a lot from
> it.
> I believe the successful design and manufacture of a small mobile plant is
> one of the answers to making biodiesel a feasible product worldwide and
> making it viable from an economic point of view. There is a world wide
> demand for high quality glycerine which fetches good prices. Prices for
the
> glycerine could be used to offset shifts in the base raw materials costs.
If
> a small mobile plant could be put out at realistic cost there would be a
> fairly reasonable demand for it. The secret is a cheap energy source as to
> distill glycerine you need temperatures in the range of 500 to 600 degrees
> and you can imagine how consumptive and expensive this can quickly become
at
> this temperature range.
> I have looked into this before and it is beyond me on a personal level as
it
> needs a reasonable amount of input and also a reasonable cash input. I
> believe the answer is design input from half a dozen people or more and
also
> financial input from others.
> Anyone out there interested in forming a design team and anyone interested
> in becoming a financial backer?.
> Hope this is of some help to you and others. The answers are out there,
the
> solution is digging them out and then combining with others to achieve
your
> goal. Keith, Steve, Aleks, Todd, Ed, and others who add their two cents
> everyday and are getting the word out there have moved this industry
forward
> a long way already but it still has a long way to go.
> B.r., David
>
>
>
>
> Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
> To unsubscribe, send an email to:

Re: [biofuel] glycerin

[David Reid]

Hi David C,
  Went to town this afternoon and dug out the books on
Glyceryn. Couldnt find one of the ones I wanted but found the other which is
excellent and I would recommend, Dug out 4 books, 2 on Glycerine, and 2 on
Fatty acids or Fatty Alcohols, which are related topics, especially when it
comes to Biod.
Titles:
1) The Manufacture of Soaps, Other Detergents and Glycerine by Edgar
Woolatt. (formerly Development Manager of Lever Brothers).  Published by
Ellis Horwood Ltd, and Halstead Press, div of John Wiley and Sons 1985, ISBN
0-85312-567-8 (EHL) and ISBN 0-470-20234-3. An excellent and thoroughly
authoritive text.
2)Glycerine by S.W. Koppe Translated from the German. Published by Scott,
Greenwood & Son, London 1915
A really old book I normally would not have bothered with but has some
interesting chapters titled: Compounds and decomposition products of
Glycerine, The production of Glycerine,  The Production of Pure Glycerine,
and Various applications of Glycerine. Had not seen it before as it was down
in the basement so will at least have a quick scan of it.

3) Industrial Fatty Acids and their Applications edited by E. Scott
Pattison, and published by Reinhold Publishing Corp 1959
Some good photos and line drawings of commercial operations in the States
4)Fatty Alcohols, Raw Materials, Methods, Uses. Published by Henkel,
Dusseldorf, Germany 1982
Some good compositional data of various oils etc.

The first one is the one I would look for and you should learn a lot from
it.
I believe the successful design and manufacture of a small mobile plant is
one of the answers to making biodiesel a feasible product worldwide and
making it viable from an economic point of view. There is a world wide
demand for high quality glycerine which fetches good prices. Prices for the
glycerine could be used to offset shifts in the base raw materials costs. If
a small mobile plant could be put out at realistic cost there would be a
fairly reasonable demand for it. The secret is a cheap energy source as to
distill glycerine you need temperatures in the range of 500 to 600 degrees
and you can imagine how consumptive and expensive this can quickly become at
this temperature range.
I have looked into this before and it is beyond me on a personal level as it
needs a reasonable amount of input and also a reasonable cash input. I
believe the answer is design input from half a dozen people or more and also
financial input from others.
Anyone out there interested in forming a design team and anyone interested
in becoming a financial backer?.
Hope this is of some help to you and others. The answers are out there, the
solution is digging them out and then combining with others to achieve your
goal. Keith, Steve, Aleks, Todd, Ed, and others who add their two cents
everyday and are getting the word out there have moved this industry forward
a long way already but it still has a long way to go.
B.r., David




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Re: [biofuel] glycerin

[david e cruse]

Hi  David R.

Thanks  again.

David Cruse
- Original Message -
From: "David Reid" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Thursday, May 03, 2001 6:16 PM
Subject: Re: [biofuel] glycerin


> David,
>   Normally go into the city once or twice a week anyway to get
> supplies and other things so no problem.
> B.r.,  David
>
>
> Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
> To unsubscribe, send an email to:
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>


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Re: [biofuel] glycerin

[David Reid]

David,
  Normally go into the city once or twice a week anyway to get
supplies and other things so no problem.
B.r.,  David


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Re: [biofuel] glycerin

[david e cruse]

Hi  David  R.,

Hey  if  they  are  that  far  away,  don`t  worry
about  them.  I`ll  get  around  to  the  Mall,  there  is
a  Borders  Book  store  there  and  it`s  not  a
40 k  hike  to  the  place.

Thanks,
David  Cruse
- Original Message -
From: "David Reid" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Thursday, May 03, 2001 9:40 AM
Subject: Re: [biofuel] glycerin


> Nope sorry changed my mind. No seriously will try and remember. Books are
> held by Auckland Public Library (40 km away) so will try to look next time
I
> go into the city if it is open.
> B.r.,  David
>
> - Original Message -
> From: david e cruse <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: 
> Sent: Friday, May 04, 2001 12:21 AM
> Subject: Re: [biofuel] glycerin
>
>
> > Hi  David R.
> >
> > Thank  you , I  will  remind  you  later  on.
> >
> > Thanks  again,
> > David  Cruse
>
>
>
> Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
> To unsubscribe, send an email to:
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>


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Re: [biofuel] glycerin

[David Reid]

Nope sorry changed my mind. No seriously will try and remember. Books are
held by Auckland Public Library (40 km away) so will try to look next time I
go into the city if it is open.
B.r.,  David

- Original Message -
From: david e cruse <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Friday, May 04, 2001 12:21 AM
Subject: Re: [biofuel] glycerin


> Hi  David R.
>
> Thank  you , I  will  remind  you  later  on.
>
> Thanks  again,
> David  Cruse



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Re: [biofuel] glycerin

[david e cruse]

Hi  David R.

Thank  you , I  will  remind  you  later  on.

Thanks  again,
David  Cruse
- Original Message -
From: "David Reid" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2001 8:05 PM
Subject: Re: [biofuel] glycerin


> David,
>  Yes. If I dont get back to you in a week give me a reminder. Both
> books were good but one was excellent.
> B.r., David
>
> - Original Message -
> From: david e cruse <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: 
> Sent: Thursday, May 03, 2001 9:54 AM
> Subject: Re: [biofuel] glycerin
>
>
> > Hey  David R.
> >
> > If  that  message  was  directed  at  me  (David C.)
> > That  would  be  kind  indeed !
>
>
>
> Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
> To unsubscribe, send an email to:
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>


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Re: [biofuel] glycerin

[David Reid]

David,
 Yes. If I dont get back to you in a week give me a reminder. Both
books were good but one was excellent.
B.r., David

- Original Message -
From: david e cruse <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Thursday, May 03, 2001 9:54 AM
Subject: Re: [biofuel] glycerin


> Hey  David R.
>
> If  that  message  was  directed  at  me  (David C.)
> That  would  be  kind  indeed !



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Re: [biofuel] glycerin

[david e cruse]

Hi  Todd S

Thanks  for  the  info  on  methanol  recovery.
I  found  a  metal  shop  in  my  area  and  the
man  who  owns  the  place  is  skilled  in
stainless  steel  work.  He  gave  me  some  great
prices  on  building  process  tanks, and  building
what  you  described  for  the  alcohol  recovery.
Thanks  again  for  the  help.

David  Cruse
- Original Message -
From: "Appal Energy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2001 10:50 PM
Subject: Re: [biofuel] glycerin


> > I  want  to  know  about
> > the  vacuum/ heat  extraction  method  in  more  detail,
> > so  if  you  have  some  good  info  I  would  appreciate
> > your  help.  I`m  not  sure  what  VOC  output  is
> > so  please  fill  me  in  on  that.
> .
>
> David,
>
> Vacuum is not necessary for evaporating and distilling the methanol,
either
> the residual in the biodiesel before washing or the residual in the
> glycerin.
>
> A closed system is, however, to prevent the escape of the toxic and
> flammable fumes.
>
> It consists of nothing more than a manner to heat the fluid above the
> boiling point of the alcohol, and a water cooled condenser to recover the
> vapor in liquid form.
>
> Essentially it is the same process for evaporation and condensing
glycerin,
> except that vacuum is used so that not so much heat energy is required.
This
> is where pressure rated tanks and the like enter into play. Just imagine a
> more industrial image than what is in the following paragraph.
>
> You could probably evaporate the alcohol out of both the biodiesel and the
> glycerin using a fifty five gallon closed head drum, with the 3/4" bung
> plugged, the 2" bung piped into the condenser, the drum wrapped in R-19
> insulation, all sitting on a double burner electric hotplate, or some
other
> non-open-flame heat source.
>
> I would separate the biodiesel from the glycerin first and then evaporate
> each medium separately - perhaps a separate drum for both to prevent
> glycerin contamination of the fuel/
>
> You will also need to remove the glycerin from the drum while still warm
or
> reheat it before removal, as it gets rather thick.
>
> Todd
> Appal Energy
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>
>
> Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
> To unsubscribe, send an email to:
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
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>
>


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Re: [biofuel] glycerin

[david e cruse]

Hey  David R.

If  that  message  was  directed  at  me  (David C.)
That  would  be  kind  indeed !

David Cruse
- Original Message -
From: "David Reid" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2001 10:18 PM
Subject: Re: [biofuel] glycerin


> Hi David,
>Can dig out a couple of good book titles from the library
if
> you give me time.
> B.r.,  David
>
>
> Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
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> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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>
>


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Re: [biofuel] glycerin

[Appal Energy]

> I  want  to  know  about
> the  vacuum/ heat  extraction  method  in  more  detail,
> so  if  you  have  some  good  info  I  would  appreciate
> your  help.  I`m  not  sure  what  VOC  output  is
> so  please  fill  me  in  on  that.
.

David,

Vacuum is not necessary for evaporating and distilling the methanol, either
the residual in the biodiesel before washing or the residual in the
glycerin.

A closed system is, however, to prevent the escape of the toxic and
flammable fumes.

It consists of nothing more than a manner to heat the fluid above the
boiling point of the alcohol, and a water cooled condenser to recover the
vapor in liquid form.

Essentially it is the same process for evaporation and condensing glycerin,
except that vacuum is used so that not so much heat energy is required. This
is where pressure rated tanks and the like enter into play. Just imagine a
more industrial image than what is in the following paragraph.

You could probably evaporate the alcohol out of both the biodiesel and the
glycerin using a fifty five gallon closed head drum, with the 3/4" bung
plugged, the 2" bung piped into the condenser, the drum wrapped in R-19
insulation, all sitting on a double burner electric hotplate, or some other
non-open-flame heat source.

I would separate the biodiesel from the glycerin first and then evaporate
each medium separately - perhaps a separate drum for both to prevent
glycerin contamination of the fuel/

You will also need to remove the glycerin from the drum while still warm or
reheat it before removal, as it gets rather thick.

Todd
Appal Energy
[EMAIL PROTECTED]



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Re: [biofuel] glycerin

[david e cruse]

Hi  Ed,

You  may  be  right  about  the  soap !
Only  problem  is  there  are  so  many  people
making  "handmade/ hand crafted soap"  and
all  the  other  craft  things  that  it  makes  it
difficult  to  find  a  good  market !
Anyway  thanks  for  the  thought.

David  Cruse
- Original Message -
From: "NBT - E. Beggs" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Monday, April 30, 2001 8:04 PM
Subject: Re: [biofuel] glycerin


> Soap production sounds  a little more promising.
>
>
> - Original Message -
> From: "Appal Energy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: 
>
> >
> > > David  Cruse
> > ...
> > David,
> >
> > Here's the skinny on glycerin.
> >
>
>
>
> Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
> To unsubscribe, send an email to:
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>


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Re: [biofuel] glycerin

[David Reid]

Hi David,
   Can dig out a couple of good book titles from the library if
you give me time.
B.r.,  David


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Re: [biofuel] glycerin

[david e cruse]

Hi  David,

Thanks  for  the  info.  I  talked  to  the  General
Manager  of  Ocean Air Environmental ( formerly
NOPEC ) in  Florida  and  he  told  me  that  they
have  a  difficult  time  with  glycerin  also.  But  it`s
still  on  my  list  of  things  to  accomplish !

David  Cruse
- Original Message -
From: "David Reid" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Monday, April 30, 2001 8:41 PM
Subject: Re: [biofuel] glycerin


> David,
>   Unfortunately the only way to purify it properly and get an
> absolutely pure product is with distillation. Commercial processors use
> other screening and filtering processes such as fullers earth which gets
rid
> of some of the gunk but to get it really pure they still need
distillation.
> Unfortunately this type of process really needs to be done on a commercial
> scale to make it truly viable.
> B.r.,  David
>
> > Does  anyone  know  a  process  that  can  be
> > used  to  purify  the  glycerin  produced  in  the
> > biodiesel  reaction  into  a  pure  or  high  grade
> > glycerol ?  High  grade  glycerol  has  a  much
> > better  market  value  than  the  crude ( 80-88% )
> > glycerin  you  get  with  standard  biodiesel  recipes.
> > Any  help  on  this  would  be  greatly  appreciated.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > David  Cruse
> > Atlanta, Georgia  metro  area
>
>
>
> Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
> To unsubscribe, send an email to:
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>


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Re: [biofuel] glycerin

[david e cruse]

Hi  Todd,

Thanks  for  the  info.  You`re  probably  right  about
the  glycerin,  but  I`m  still  going  to  keep  it  on
my  list  of  things  to  accomplish.  You  are  absolutely
right  about  the  methanol.  I  want  to  know  about
the  vacuum/ heat  extraction  method  in  more  detail,
so  if  you  have  some  good  info  I  would  appreciate
your  help.  I`m  not  sure  what  VOC  output  is
so  please  fill  me  in  on  that.

Hey,  I  really  got  a  charge  out  of  the  "King George
thing"  I`m  in  absolute  agreement !!!

Thanks,
David  Cruse
- Original Message -
From: "Appal Energy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Monday, April 30, 2001 7:51 PM
Subject: Re: [biofuel] glycerin


> > Does  anyone  know  a  process  that  can  be
> > used  to  purify  the  glycerin  produced  in  the
> > biodiesel  reaction  into  a  pure  or  high  grade
> > glycerol ?  High  grade  glycerol  has  a  much
> > better  market  value  than  the  crude ( 80-88% )
> > glycerin  you  get  with  standard  biodiesel  recipes.
>
> > David  Cruse
> ...
> David,
>
> Here's the skinny on glycerin.
>
> To purify you will need to evaporate and distill it. The boiling point is
> above 500 Fahrenheit (read "boatloads of heat energy").
>
> To reduce the heat input, you can evaporate and distill under partial
> vacuum. You're talking pressure rated, insulated tanks, a serious boiler,
a
> major energy cost and uneconomical until you have a volume of "x" cubic
feet
> of crude to distill.
>
> And that's when you're doing it safely but on the cheap.
>
> Even then you must meet food or cosmetic grade compliance for both the
> facility and the product in order to attain the higher value of pure
> glycerin. This means initial cost to meet the standard, continual and
> rigorous testing to insure product integrity, insurance costs for
> distributing food or cosmetic grade products and costs almost ad
infinitum.
>
> Until you start producing several thousand gallons of biodiesel each week,
> the idea of refining glycerin is best left on paper or perhaps a pretty
> intense experiment. This truth really sucks, but no one can change the
> physical properties of glycerin.
>
> You could also experiment with glycerin as a furnace fuel or furnace fuel
> additive. Incomplete combustion generates Acrolein, however. It is
extremely
> toxic and dangerous. One should be up on their combustion mechanics and
> chemistry before trying this.
>
> Or, you could toy with the conversion of glycerin to ethanol. This would
be
> in the presence of the neutralized catalyst if you cannot determine a way
to
> remove it before fermentation. This may or may not affect the yeastie
> beasties, depending upon their nature.
>
> In any event, you should be recovering the alcohol from the glycerin layer
> for economic and environmental purposes. That may not seem like much, but
it
> is a start and gets you more familiar with evaporation/condensing
techniques
> if you're not already familiar. It also reduces your VOC output if the
> alcohol of choice was anything but ethanol.
>
> The working theory is that biodiesel manufacture is intended to be green.
> This is one theory that can be practical in reality if all avenues are
> addressed
>
> Todd
> Appal Energy
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>
>
> Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
> To unsubscribe, send an email to:
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>


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Re: [biofuel] glycerin

[David Reid]

David,
  Unfortunately the only way to purify it properly and get an
absolutely pure product is with distillation. Commercial processors use
other screening and filtering processes such as fullers earth which gets rid
of some of the gunk but to get it really pure they still need distillation.
Unfortunately this type of process really needs to be done on a commercial
scale to make it truly viable.
B.r.,  David

> Does  anyone  know  a  process  that  can  be
> used  to  purify  the  glycerin  produced  in  the
> biodiesel  reaction  into  a  pure  or  high  grade
> glycerol ?  High  grade  glycerol  has  a  much
> better  market  value  than  the  crude ( 80-88% )
> glycerin  you  get  with  standard  biodiesel  recipes.
> Any  help  on  this  would  be  greatly  appreciated.
>
> Thanks,
> David  Cruse
> Atlanta, Georgia  metro  area



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Re: [biofuel] glycerin

[NBT - E. Beggs]

Soap production sounds  a little more promising.


- Original Message - 
From: "Appal Energy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 

> 
> > David  Cruse
> ...
> David,
> 
> Here's the skinny on glycerin.
> 



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Re: [biofuel] glycerin

[Appal Energy]

> Does  anyone  know  a  process  that  can  be
> used  to  purify  the  glycerin  produced  in  the
> biodiesel  reaction  into  a  pure  or  high  grade
> glycerol ?  High  grade  glycerol  has  a  much
> better  market  value  than  the  crude ( 80-88% )
> glycerin  you  get  with  standard  biodiesel  recipes.

> David  Cruse
...
David,

Here's the skinny on glycerin.

To purify you will need to evaporate and distill it. The boiling point is
above 500 Fahrenheit (read "boatloads of heat energy").

To reduce the heat input, you can evaporate and distill under partial
vacuum. You're talking pressure rated, insulated tanks, a serious boiler, a
major energy cost and uneconomical until you have a volume of "x" cubic feet
of crude to distill.

And that's when you're doing it safely but on the cheap.

Even then you must meet food or cosmetic grade compliance for both the
facility and the product in order to attain the higher value of pure
glycerin. This means initial cost to meet the standard, continual and
rigorous testing to insure product integrity, insurance costs for
distributing food or cosmetic grade products and costs almost ad infinitum.

Until you start producing several thousand gallons of biodiesel each week,
the idea of refining glycerin is best left on paper or perhaps a pretty
intense experiment. This truth really sucks, but no one can change the
physical properties of glycerin.

You could also experiment with glycerin as a furnace fuel or furnace fuel
additive. Incomplete combustion generates Acrolein, however. It is extremely
toxic and dangerous. One should be up on their combustion mechanics and
chemistry before trying this.

Or, you could toy with the conversion of glycerin to ethanol. This would be
in the presence of the neutralized catalyst if you cannot determine a way to
remove it before fermentation. This may or may not affect the yeastie
beasties, depending upon their nature.

In any event, you should be recovering the alcohol from the glycerin layer
for economic and environmental purposes. That may not seem like much, but it
is a start and gets you more familiar with evaporation/condensing techniques
if you're not already familiar. It also reduces your VOC output if the
alcohol of choice was anything but ethanol.

The working theory is that biodiesel manufacture is intended to be green.
This is one theory that can be practical in reality if all avenues are
addressed

Todd
Appal Energy
[EMAIL PROTECTED]



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[biofuel] glycerin

[david e cruse]

BlankHi  Folks,

Does  anyone  know  a  process  that  can  be  
used  to  purify  the  glycerin  produced  in  the
biodiesel  reaction  into  a  pure  or  high  grade
glycerol ?  High  grade  glycerol  has  a  much
better  market  value  than  the  crude ( 80-88% )
glycerin  you  get  with  standard  biodiesel  recipes.
Any  help  on  this  would  be  greatly  appreciated.

Thanks,
David  Cruse
Atlanta, Georgia  metro  area






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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