RE: [biofuel] Water vs Energy Importance
Hi Mike Keith, Nice to hear that you're from around the corner. I live in Hout Bay and know your travel route well. Just about one of the most breath-taking ways of driving to work. It's spectacular! Especially on a big bike. Almost a good enough reason to have a job (but not quite!). Via Silvermine's quicker, but who cares? I lived in Hout Bay too for awhile, very pleasant. Sea Point is still much the same Yes, flatland. :-( Special place before they tore it down in the 60s. but Noordhoek has grown. It has its own Mcdonalds. Ulp! (WVO?) I used to live in Monkey Valley, I know that's changed a lot. The vlei was still extant then, the end of the African migratory route, and the sandveld flora. Is it still there, or have the wattles taken over completely? (Biomass, they were saying.) Although Long Beach is still pristine and we got that famous right breaker ( or is it left) near Kommetjie. Where all the Endless Summers end, the ultimate wave. Should be right? Can't remember. Bit of competition from Geoffrey's Bay, was the issue ever settled? Ja broer, kom oor dan gaan vang ons kreef en maak u braai. Lekker! You know then. I'll hold you to that! After you've shown me round your thriving biod factory, eh? Lekker om met jou te praat. :-) Take care Keith Mike Hey, Mike, ek se, scarf a kreef for me ou broe! And some pickled vis ook. I'm a hell of a long way from Sea Point! (born and raised) You're doing good, strength to your arm. They say the Cape Doctor blows all the dirt away, but it seemed to me it did just the opposite - before I left in 1976 I'd ride in to work from Noordhoek on my bike and at the top of Kloof Nek I'd see this brown fog hanging in there over the city at the foot of the mountain. Quite a few times I just turned round and went back to Noordhoek. All best Keith Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: Jackasses was Re: [biofuel] Water vs Energy Importance
LOL Well said Todd Another conservative old fart Kirk -Original Message- From: Appal Energy [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, May 18, 2001 12:33 AM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Jackasses was Re: [biofuel] Water vs Energy Importance - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, May 17, 2001 8:49 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Water vs Energy Importance To whomever this may concern why do I get the feeling that this forum is an exchange of ideas for a bunch of socialists, and communists? I don't know. As a reasonably conservative individual, with a minor spiritual bent, why do I get the feeling that you're somewhat inconsiderate, thoughtless, near sighted and rude? Frankly, I would say that your foibles are abundantly more apparent than what you attribute to those you insult. Tell you what. Why don't a few of us chip in and buy you the ticket to Prince William Sound, as long as you agree to stay there for one full year, constantly insulting the fisherman there about their long held beliefs of responsible stewardship of resources, inclusive of oil that has destroyed their livelihood. Throw in a few more obnoxious comments about how their like minded beliefs are communistic or socialistic and you'll soon find there to be no need for an effigy at the next solstice party. If you make it out alive (although your remarks don't indicate that you have much capacity to co-exist), please allow me to be the first to greet you at the aeropuerto. You will be so kind as to hold my bible for a moment while I slap you upside the head a dozen times. yes? It would only be an anger akin to what Hesus had for the money changers. Justifiable, but short of homicide. On further thought, I believe we should all refrain from any action until you're old enough to be out of your training pants. Just a conservative, reasonably patriotic old fart who happens to keep his eyes open and is tired of people bullshitting him... Todd [EMAIL PROTECTED] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.252 / Virus Database: 125 - Release Date: 5/9/2001 --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.252 / Virus Database: 125 - Release Date: 5/9/2001 Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: Jackasses was Re: [biofuel] Water vs Energy Importance
Please respond to biofuel@yahoogroups.com To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com cc:(bcc: Joseph Martelle/US/GM/GMC) Subject: RE: Jackasses was Re: [biofuel] Water vs Energy Importance LOL Well said Todd Another conservative old fart Kirk I enjoyed it as well. Yet another COF. Joe To whomever this may concern why do I get the feeling that this forum is an exchange of ideas for a bunch of socialists, and communists? I don't know. As a reasonably conservative individual, with a minor spiritual bent, why do I get the feeling that you're somewhat inconsiderate, thoughtless, near sighted and rude? Frankly, I would say that your foibles are abundantly more apparent than what you attribute to those you insult. Tell you what. Why don't a few of us chip in and buy you the ticket to Prince William Sound, as long as you agree to stay there for one full year, constantly insulting the fisherman there about their long held beliefs of responsible stewardship of resources, inclusive of oil that has destroyed their livelihood. Throw in a few more obnoxious comments about how their like minded beliefs are communistic or socialistic and you'll soon find there to be no need for an effigy at the next solstice party. If you make it out alive (although your remarks don't indicate that you have much capacity to co-exist), please allow me to be the first to greet you at the aeropuerto. You will be so kind as to hold my bible for a moment while I slap you upside the head a dozen times. yes? It would only be an anger akin to what Hesus had for the money changers. Justifiable, but short of homicide. On further thought, I believe we should all refrain from any action until you're old enough to be out of your training pants. Just a conservative, reasonably patriotic old fart who happens to keep his eyes open and is tired of people bullshitting him... Todd [EMAIL PROTECTED] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.252 / Virus Database: 125 - Release Date: 5/9/2001 --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.252 / Virus Database: 125 - Release Date: 5/9/2001 Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Water vs Energy Importance
To Whom This May Concern, me thinks you protest too much -- you sniveling socialist pigs! wherefore the invectives? Even an idiot can sense your political proclivity. When will you socialists/communists realize that your utopian pursuits are nothing more than a diabolical scheme that will eventually be frustrated? I tuned in to learn more about bio-fuels, and related matters-not to be bombarded by your frequent conjecture stemming from your obvious political bias. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Water vs Energy Importance
To the entire group, It puzzles me as to why personal and vindictive attacks have to be perpetrated using this forum. I joined it so I can learn all about biodiesel and how to make it, plus keep up with developments on a global scale. Can anyone tell me if there is an alternative to this group where this reprehensible behaviour is not practised? John in Australia - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, May 19, 2001 12:00 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Water vs Energy Importance To Whom This May Concern, me thinks you protest too much -- you sniveling socialist pigs! wherefore the invectives? Even an idiot can sense your political proclivity. When will you socialists/communists realize that your utopian pursuits are nothing more than a diabolical scheme that will eventually be frustrated? I tuned in to learn more about bio-fuels, and related matters-not to be bombarded by your frequent conjecture stemming from your obvious political bias. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Water vs Energy Importance
don't leave john, winaled will soon be gone! Steve Spence Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter: http://www.webconx.com/subscribe.htm Renewable Energy Pages - http://www.webconx.com Palm Pilot Pages - http://www.webconx.com/palm X10 Home Automation - http://www.webconx.com/x10 [EMAIL PROTECTED] (212) 894-3704 x3154 - voicemail/fax We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors, we borrow it from our children. -- - Original Message - From: John [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, May 18, 2001 10:05 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Water vs Energy Importance To the entire group, It puzzles me as to why personal and vindictive attacks have to be perpetrated using this forum. I joined it so I can learn all about biodiesel and how to make it, plus keep up with developments on a global scale. Can anyone tell me if there is an alternative to this group where this reprehensible behaviour is not practised? John in Australia - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, May 19, 2001 12:00 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Water vs Energy Importance To Whom This May Concern, me thinks you protest too much -- you sniveling socialist pigs! wherefore the invectives? Even an idiot can sense your political proclivity. When will you socialists/communists realize that your utopian pursuits are nothing more than a diabolical scheme that will eventually be frustrated? I tuned in to learn more about bio-fuels, and related matters-not to be bombarded by your frequent conjecture stemming from your obvious political bias. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Water vs Energy Importance
To Whom This May Concern, me thinks you protest too much -- you sniveling socialist pigs! wherefore the invectives? Even an idiot can sense your political proclivity. When will you socialists/communists realize that your utopian pursuits are nothing more than a diabolical scheme that will eventually be frustrated? I tuned in to learn more about bio-fuels, and related matters-not to be bombarded by your frequent conjecture stemming from your obvious political bias. All right. Then you would please exercise some adult courtesy and tune out? Now, if you would be so kind, our latest diabolical plot is about to be hatched. We have accessed new bio-technology, recovered the DNA of Fu Man Chu, and his clone is about to be removed from the artificial amniotic sack. Timing is critical. Especially if we intend to stay on our strict schedule of cornering the global money supply, thereby forcing the entire human population to serve our diabolical utopian goals of responsible stewardship and forethought for other peoples. Either they capitulate or they will be sent to bed without their dessert. Good Bye, Todd Swearingen Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [biofuel] Water vs Energy Importance
Every group sooner or later gets a flamer. They lack the intellect to understand any technical discussion so in their adolescent frustration they flame. Ignore them as attention is their motive. Use the delete key. -Original Message- From: John [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, May 18, 2001 8:06 PM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [biofuel] Water vs Energy Importance To the entire group, It puzzles me as to why personal and vindictive attacks have to be perpetrated using this forum. I joined it so I can learn all about biodiesel and how to make it, plus keep up with developments on a global scale. Can anyone tell me if there is an alternative to this group where this reprehensible behaviour is not practised? John in Australia - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, May 19, 2001 12:00 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Water vs Energy Importance To Whom This May Concern, me thinks you protest too much -- you sniveling socialist pigs! wherefore the invectives? Even an idiot can sense your political proclivity. When will you socialists/communists realize that your utopian pursuits are nothing more than a diabolical scheme that will eventually be frustrated? I tuned in to learn more about bio-fuels, and related matters-not to be bombarded by your frequent conjecture stemming from your obvious political bias. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.252 / Virus Database: 125 - Release Date: 5/9/2001 --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.252 / Virus Database: 125 - Release Date: 5/9/2001 Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: Jackasses was Re: [biofuel] Water vs Energy Importance
To Whom This May Concern, Me thinks you protest too much -- you sniveling socialist pigs! Wherefore the invectives? Even an idiot can sense your political proclivity. When will you socialists/communists realize that your utopian pursuits are nothing more than a diabolical scheme that will eventually be frustrated? I tuned in to learn more about biofuels, and related matters -- not to be bombarded by your frequent conjecture arising from your obvious political bias. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Water vs Energy Importance
Texas BBQ time? Kin we hang'em Paw? Huh? You said we could! Now Boys, you know yer Maw gets all upset when you go stringin' people up... Jay in Carson City. Say what now? [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: To Whom This May Concern, me thinks you protest too much -- you sniveling socialist pigs! wherefore the invectives? Even an idiot can sense your political proclivity. When will you socialists/communists realize that your utopian pursuits are nothing more than a diabolical scheme that will eventually be frustrated? I tuned in to learn more about bio-fuels, and related matters-not to be bombarded by your frequent conjecture stemming from your obvious political bias. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Attn: Winaled Re: Jackasses was Re: [biofuel] Water vs Energy Importance
Hey buddy-up! Explica te! If yer gonna bitch, clip in whatcher bitchin about so we can rip you up when your argument is disproven! -JIM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Water vs Energy Importance
Hi John, Welcome to the group you snivelling and whinging Aussie. No seriously John welcome and dont leave the group as Steve says. Both Steve and Keith run pretty good sites overall, with access to lots of information and there are lots of good members with some darn good contributing ones. I suppose its inevitable that you get people who want to have a go at others. Every n.g I have ever been in tends to have one or two miscast people. The best thing is to ignore them most of the time, to get on, learn as much as you can, and try to contribute. Unfortunately the world is made up of givers and takers. Most people never learn that the quickest way to learn is to try helping others. B.r., David - Original Message - From: John [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, May 19, 2001 2:05 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Water vs Energy Importance To the entire group, It puzzles me as to why personal and vindictive attacks have to be perpetrated using this forum. I joined it so I can learn all about biodiesel and how to make it, plus keep up with developments on a global scale. Can anyone tell me if there is an alternative to this group where this reprehensible behaviour is not practised? John in Australia - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, May 19, 2001 12:00 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Water vs Energy Importance To Whom This May Concern, me thinks you protest too much -- you sniveling socialist pigs! wherefore the invectives? Even an idiot can sense your political proclivity. When will you socialists/communists realize that your utopian pursuits are nothing more than a diabolical scheme that will eventually be frustrated? I tuned in to learn more about bio-fuels, and related matters-not to be bombarded by your frequent conjecture stemming from your obvious political bias. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Water vs Energy Importance
David, I was a member some time ago, and unsubscribe because I went on leave, re-subscribed when I returned and thought I had subscribed to the wrong group!! David, thanks for your time, I appreciate it John Welcome to the group you snivelling and whinging Aussie. No seriously John welcome and dont leave the group as Steve says. Both Steve and Keith run pretty good sites overall, with access to lots of information and there are lots of good members with some darn good contributing ones. I suppose its inevitable that you get people who want to have a go at others. Every n.g I have ever been in tends to have one or two miscast people. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Water vs Energy Importance
To Whom This May Concern, me thinks you protest too much -- you sniveling socialist pigs! wherefore the invectives? Even an idiot can sense your political proclivity. When will you socialists/communists realize that your utopian pursuits are nothing more than a diabolical scheme that will eventually be frustrated? I tuned in to learn more about bio-fuels, and related matters-not to be bombarded by your frequent conjecture stemming from your obvious political bias. Bye-bye! Keith Addison Journey to Forever Handmade Projects Tokyo http://journeytoforever.org/ List owner Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [biofuel] Water vs Energy Importance
Keith, How about getting rid of this thing? Mike -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, May 19, 2001 4:00 AM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [biofuel] Water vs Energy Importance To Whom This May Concern, me thinks you protest too much -- you sniveling socialist pigs! wherefore the invectives? Even an idiot can sense your political proclivity. When will you socialists/communists realize that your utopian pursuits are nothing more than a diabolical scheme that will eventually be frustrated? I tuned in to learn more about bio-fuels, and related matters-not to be bombarded by your frequent conjecture stemming from your obvious political bias. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [biofuel] Water vs Energy Importance
Hi Mike Keith, How about getting rid of this thing? Done, removed and banned. Poor guy, imagine living inside such a narrow mind. Too bad, not our concern, I won't have people spewed at here, he can get his attention-fix somewhere else. Hey, Mike, ek se, scarf a kreef for me ou broe! And some pickled vis ook. I'm a hell of a long way from Sea Point! (born and raised) You're doing good, strength to your arm. They say the Cape Doctor blows all the dirt away, but it seemed to me it did just the opposite - before I left in 1976 I'd ride in to work from Noordhoek on my bike and at the top of Kloof Nek I'd see this brown fog hanging in there over the city at the foot of the mountain. Quite a few times I just turned round and went back to Noordhoek. All best Keith Mike -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, May 19, 2001 4:00 AM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [biofuel] Water vs Energy Importance To Whom This May Concern, me thinks you protest too much -- you sniveling socialist pigs! wherefore Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Water vs Energy Importance
To whomever this may concern why do I get the feeling that this forum is an exchange of ideas for a bunch of socialists, and communists? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Water vs Energy Importance
No, not at all. - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, May 18, 2001 10:49 AM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Water vs Energy Importance To whomever this may concern why do I get the feeling that this forum is an exchange of ideas for a bunch of socialists, and communists? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Water vs Energy Importance
Perhaps Fascists inherently dislike decentralization of power? Jay in Carson City [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: To whomever this may concern why do I get the feeling that this forum is an exchange of ideas for a bunch of socialists, and communists? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [biofuel] Water vs Energy Importance
If you can't handle free exchange of ideas than why don't you unsubscribe. You can learn how to from the bottom of the page. Try to spell it properly. -Original Message- From: Ian J Joseph [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, May 18, 2001 2:51 AM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [biofuel] Water vs Energy Importance No, not at all. - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, May 18, 2001 10:49 AM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Water vs Energy Importance To whomever this may concern why do I get the feeling that this forum is an exchange of ideas for a bunch of socialists, and communists? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Jackasses was Re: [biofuel] Water vs Energy Importance
- Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, May 17, 2001 8:49 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Water vs Energy Importance To whomever this may concern why do I get the feeling that this forum is an exchange of ideas for a bunch of socialists, and communists? I don't know. As a reasonably conservative individual, with a minor spiritual bent, why do I get the feeling that you're somewhat inconsiderate, thoughtless, near sighted and rude? Frankly, I would say that your foibles are abundantly more apparent than what you attribute to those you insult. Tell you what. Why don't a few of us chip in and buy you the ticket to Prince William Sound, as long as you agree to stay there for one full year, constantly insulting the fisherman there about their long held beliefs of responsible stewardship of resources, inclusive of oil that has destroyed their livelihood. Throw in a few more obnoxious comments about how their like minded beliefs are communistic or socialistic and you'll soon find there to be no need for an effigy at the next solstice party. If you make it out alive (although your remarks don't indicate that you have much capacity to co-exist), please allow me to be the first to greet you at the aeropuerto. You will be so kind as to hold my bible for a moment while I slap you upside the head a dozen times. yes? It would only be an anger akin to what Hesus had for the money changers. Justifiable, but short of homicide. On further thought, I believe we should all refrain from any action until you're old enough to be out of your training pants. Just a conservative, reasonably patriotic old fart who happens to keep his eyes open and is tired of people bullshitting him... Todd [EMAIL PROTECTED] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Water vs Energy Importance
Hi All, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: To whomever this may concern why do I get the feeling that this forum is an exchange of ideas for a bunch of socialists, and communists? Because you don't know much and need to open your mind. We are not going to keep being screwed by big oil or coal, we know there are better ways like biomass, solar, Nuke done right, wind and non dam tidal/ river power. The truth is almost every home has plenty of energy delivered right to it by solar/ wind to supply it's , it's peoples and their transport needs. We should put our money there to make jobs here, true national energy security rather than dependence on opec/ oilies and a bad depression in 5 to 10 years like Bush is leading us to now. We like to be independent of those with their hands in our pockets by not needing them. All isms taken to their end are fatal. What we need is a working blend of capitalism, democracy, socialism with respect for human rights and keeping our planet healthy so we can be healthy too. That's true conservatism unlike what Bush is trying to do which is corporate welfare of the worst kind. I backed throwing the welfare cheats off now it's time to do the same for the corporate version. If they did RE would be viable right away without the subidies that corporation get now. I'm fiscally conservative and socially liberial and really don't like either party. Ventrua is starting to look good now. No one believes in communism anymore, not even communist. Stop fighting that war, it's over, they killed themselves. Remember moderation in all things. jerry dycus __ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [biofuel] Water vs Energy Importance
Hear hear Gerry, I give 100 out of 100 and to the poor misguided bloke who wrote in about communism etc. I suggest he needs to take his blinkers off. Hanns -Original Message- From: jerry dycus [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, 18 May 2001 9:40 PM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [biofuel] Water vs Energy Importance Hi All, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: To whomever this may concern why do I get the feeling that this forum is an exchange of ideas for a bunch of socialists, and communists? Because you don't know much and need to open your mind. We are not going to keep being screwed by big oil or coal, we know there are better ways like biomass, solar, Nuke done right, wind and non dam tidal/ river power. The truth is almost every home has plenty of energy delivered right to it by solar/ wind to supply it's , it's peoples and their transport needs. We should put our money there to make jobs here, true national energy security rather than dependence on opec/ oilies and a bad depression in 5 to 10 years like Bush is leading us to now. We like to be independent of those with their hands in our pockets by not needing them. All isms taken to their end are fatal. What we need is a working blend of capitalism, democracy, socialism with respect for human rights and keeping our planet healthy so we can be healthy too. That's true conservatism unlike what Bush is trying to do which is corporate welfare of the worst kind. I backed throwing the welfare cheats off now it's time to do the same for the corporate version. If they did RE would be viable right away without the subidies that corporation get now. I'm fiscally conservative and socially liberial and really don't like either party. Ventrua is starting to look good now. No one believes in communism anymore, not even communist. Stop fighting that war, it's over, they killed themselves. Remember moderation in all things. jerry dycus __ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Water vs Energy Importance
Plentiful energy is currently the preserve of the rich (who waste it, mostly). For most of the world, successful water projects are very local, and low-tech. But there's no need to argue about which is more important, of course they're both important, and both problems are symptoms of an over-riding cause - an unjust and inequitable economic system. If you can call such insanity a system at all. Keith, when you talk about the inequality and inequity in the world economy, what are your views on this? Basically, what do you mean? Of course the rich waste, but to them they've earned it. If the rest of the world isn't made up of servants, they say, let them rise up and be rich. Self-fulfilling prophecy, I think. I wonder what your solution would be, Keith- i'd just watch out for putting emphasis on supposed human cooperation, goodwill and the urge to go further, faster. God, the philosophy... I hate it. Why in the hell can't people just 'get along', 'love their neighbors', and learn how to live instead of consuming? Why, for example, am I, a purty decent guy, not given options to either consume or not consume? Most of us don't have a choice; most of us never will. The world might not have a chance, and it's a curse to see the problem without even knowing how to grind yourself into the gears for a start. I'll shut up now, thanks. _JIM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Water vs Energy Importance
Hi Folks, I have been pondering this for years, and I was about to make a post tonight! And I just got my energy questions answered in the news letter! How do we go about equalizing things? It really is rational, since stability is more assured. There has to be a way somehow, but it requires turning the world on its ear. In the USA slavery was supposedly abolished, but the economy DEPENDS on a good part of the population working for slave wages. It is Impossible for everyone to get rich. How can we see every job as important? Scrubbing commodes is just as important as being a big brass plated buffoon of a radio talk show host. (A purely fictional character). Sure the buffoon will look down and say anyone can scrub commodes; but will they? I like the free enterprise system, but there has to be a way to solve some of the inequity. It is tough in a country where many people don't want to get their fingers dirty. Sheesh! Pulling weeds is a highly underrated activity. Jay in Carson City [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Plentiful energy is currently the preserve of the rich (who waste it, mostly). For most of the world, successful water projects are very local, and low-tech. But there's no need to argue about which is more important, of course they're both important, and both problems are symptoms of an over-riding cause - an unjust and inequitable economic system. If you can call such insanity a system at all. Keith, when you talk about the inequality and inequity in the world economy, what are your views on this? Basically, what do you mean? Of course the rich waste, but to them they've earned it. If the rest of the world isn't made up of servants, they say, let them rise up and be rich. Self-fulfilling prophecy, I think. I wonder what your solution would be, Keith- i'd just watch out for putting emphasis on supposed human cooperation, goodwill and the urge to go further, faster. God, the philosophy... I hate it. Why in the hell can't people just 'get along', 'love their neighbors', and learn how to live instead of consuming? Why, for example, am I, a purty decent guy, not given options to either consume or not consume? Most of us don't have a choice; most of us never will. The world might not have a chance, and it's a curse to see the problem without even knowing how to grind yourself into the gears for a start. I'll shut up now, thanks. _JIM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
OT: inequality and inequity - was Re: [biofuel] Water vs Energy Importance
Plentiful energy is currently the preserve of the rich (who waste it, mostly). For most of the world, successful water projects are very local, and low-tech. But there's no need to argue about which is more important, of course they're both important, and both problems are symptoms of an over-riding cause - an unjust and inequitable economic system. If you can call such insanity a system at all. Keith, when you talk about the inequality and inequity in the world economy, what are your views on this? Basically, what do you mean? Please see below. Of course the rich waste, but to them they've earned it. If the rest of the world isn't made up of servants, they say, let them rise up and be rich. Self-fulfilling prophecy, I think. Nobody earns the right to waste. The rich aren't rich because they've earned it. They talk of wealth-creation, but it usually has more to do with wealth-extraction via poverty-creation. Of course there are exceptions, but that's the general picture, it holds good when you're talking about billions - billions of people and billions of dollars. Of course genuine wealth-creation, real development, can and does exist, but it's almost always bottom-up, decentralised, local-level stuff - small is beautiful. In the Industrial World small businesses account for more technological advances in their areas of expertise than government supported researchers or research departments in massive corporations. (Steve Troy of Jade Mountain.) I wonder what your solution would be, Keith- i'd just watch out for putting emphasis on supposed human cooperation, goodwill and the urge to go further, faster. The first two work well, the third's an odd-man-out. Bit like saying trees, soil, Agent Orange. God, the philosophy... I hate it. Why in the hell can't people just 'get along', 'love their neighbors', and learn how to live instead of consuming? That's what the vast majority do, or would do, but for the small minority. Why, for example, am I, a purty decent guy, not given options to either consume or not consume? You do have that option. Most of us don't have a choice; most of us never will. Most don't have the choice to consume. Many don't have the choice to survive. The world might not have a chance, and it's a curse to see the problem without even knowing how to grind yourself into the gears for a start. The world's got a pretty good chance, I reckon. I think you can start wherever you happen to be right now. Anyhow, I think you've already started, haven't you? I'll shut up now, thanks. _JIM Please see: Community development - poverty and hunger: see The causes of poverty http://journeytoforever.org/community2.html Also: The annual UN Human Development Report says the effects of globalisation and increasing economic integration have led to the rich getting richer and the poor getting poorer in nearly every way. UN statistics provide evidence of the widening gap between rich and poor: In nine years, the income ratio between the top 20% and the bottom 20% has increased from 60:1 to 74:1. Eighty countries have less revenue than they did a decade ago. The assets of the 200 richest people exceed the combined income of 41% of the world's total population. Monday, July 12, 1999 BBC World News Economic growth is projected as the road to overcome global poverty. With economic growth of $100 the rich 20% of the world population pocket $83 and the poorest 20% get $1.40. Global economic growth is therefore a highly inefficient way to help the global poor. [I think that $1.40 is a bit optimistic, often it's a negative figure. Sorry, I've lost the source for this somehow. - K] The world's richest fifth consumes 86% of all goods and services while the poorest fifth consumes just 1.3%. The richest fifth consumes 45% of all meat and fish, 58% of all energy used, and 84% of all toilet paper, has 74% of all telephone lines, and owns 87% of all vehicles. Source: NYTimes, 9/26/98, Week in Review section. The world's 225 richest individuals, of whom 60 are American with total assets of $311 billion, have a combined wealth of over $1 trillion - equal to the annual income of the poorest 47% of the entire world's population. Source: NYTimes, 9/26/98, Week in Review section. By the year 2050, 8 billion of the world's projected people - up from about 6 billion today - will be living in developing countries. Source: NYTimes, 9/26/98, Week in Review section. Three billion people live on less than $2.00 a day. One billion people live on less than $1.00 a day. - statistics courtesy of the World Bank If all this is going to cause a big fuss, we should maybe take it elsewhere. But I should add that it's the backdrop to our thinking about promoting biofuels use, and that of many others on this list. It's also the backdrop to much or most of the environmental degradation which concerns many of us. Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
Re: [biofuel] Water vs Energy Importance
Oops, seems I've touched something off. :-/ Hi Folks, I have been pondering this for years, and I was about to make a post tonight! And I just got my energy questions answered in the news letter! How do we go about equalizing things? It really is rational, since stability is more assured. There has to be a way somehow, but it requires turning the world on its ear. Or setting it to rights? Even setting it *back* to rights? Which needn't mean setting it back, maybe the opposite - freeing it from what's holding it back. In the USA slavery was supposedly abolished, but the economy DEPENDS on a good part of the population working for slave wages. It is Impossible for everyone to get rich. How can we see every job as important? Scrubbing commodes is just as important as being a big brass plated buffoon of a radio talk show host. (A purely fictional character). Sure the buffoon will look down and say anyone can scrub commodes; but will they? I like the free enterprise system, but there has to be a way to solve some of the inequity. It is tough in a country where many people don't want to get their fingers dirty. Sheesh! Pulling weeds is a highly underrated activity. Jay in Carson City My 2 yen... Fritz Schumacher (Small is Beautiful - Economics as if People Mattered), the Institute for Local Self-Reliance http://www.ilsr.org, many others have a lot to say about this that's worth listening to. Roberto Verzola, secretary-general of the Philippine Greens, also has something useful to offer. This is part of a discussion on another list: Economics, properly defined, is the study of human behaviour in the marketplace. IT is a BEHAVIOURAL SCIENCE. Unfortunately, people are too often greedy and the economic models can predict behaviour by reducing humans to a collection of pecuniary interests. So, the problem is not to change economics. The problem is to change people's attitude. When that happens, the economist's models will fail. You can denounce economics all you want, but it is really human behaviour that is the problem. That is what we need to address. Pat Hi Pat. I have a different interpretation: it is true that people are occasionally / often greedy in varying degrees. However economists idealized this greed and made it the centerpoint of the ideal economic agent. Then society created a legal person in the perfect image of this idealized economic agent. This legal person is the corporation/business firm, the epitome of pure greed. Corporations (which I'd count as if they were a separate species) have domesticated many humans and forced them to act and think like corporations too. This is what we need to address. Roberto Verzola There's no reason a commode-scrubber shouldn't earn a living wage for his useful work. Weed-pulling's a bit more complex - does the weed-puller own the land? Get a share of the crop? Or is he/she just a landless (marginilised) peasant, a migrant labourer? Better, more sustainable farming methods can mean fewer weed problems - weeds can be an asset, not to be pulled! Still, whatever, a weed-puller should also earn a living wage for a useful service. It's mainly corporate rights that skew all these issues. It's the corporations we don't have room for, at least not in their present form, not most of them - they've long outlived their original limited liability purpose. Our biggest mistake is in regarding them as human, as responsible and responsive members of the community - corporations are NOT merely the people who work them. They're not even remotely human. They don't respond to human pressures, they don't have morals or ethics. Their sole aim is to make profits - anything that makes profit is GOOD. Anything that causes losses is BAD. That isn't human. Contrary to the greed creed, it's been shown that most people will knowingly forego gain and actually suffer loss in order that someone else they don't know, haven't even seen, and will never encounter again should have a good opinion of them. People place a high value on kindness and generosity. Do corporations really contribute, by and large, as claimed? The cant about economies of scale is too often just that, cant - more often they're flabby, inefficient and wasteful. The recent court case over AIDS drugs to South Africa and the Third World showed how corporations really think, behind all the spin. This series of articles in the LA Times shows the same: http://www.latimes.com/news/nation/reports/fda/ The evidence is loud and clear around us all the time, but we just don't seem to see it, we explain it away. What sort of people would recycle (?) a hundred thousand tons of toxic wastes into fertilizer? People wouldn't, unless they were psychopaths, but to corporations the bottom line made sound sense. http://www.ewg.org/pressstories/seattletimes01292001.html Again, it's been shown that communities relying on small-scale local enterprise fare far better than
Re: [biofuel] Water vs Energy Importance
Hi Derek Keith, Not to belittle your concern about water, its importance, and the likelihood of wars being fought over it, but I still tend to feel that energy in one form or another is of utmost importance. Well, yes, but water is already a crisis, and energy isn't, really - only the rather gross way it gets wasted, and the side-effects of that, might be a crisis. Okay, IS a crisis. But not one that's killing people. Or only very slowly and indirectly. So far. The trouble is that many, or even most, of the places where there are severe water-shortage problems are poor - Pakistan, Mexico, the Sahel, and so on and on. Most of Pakistan's 141.5 million people don't have access to potable water. These countries don't have a lot of energy to spare, nor a lot of technological capacity either. Or at least not where it's needed. That is not easily changed. It's not just me that says the next wars will be over water, many people are saying so. The UN says so. So does the World Bank. A report published on March 22 to coincide with World Water Day warned that two out of every three people will face water shortages by 2025. It predicted that poor countries would suffer on a massive scale. This would create 'water refugees' - millions of people forced to leave their homes in search of clean water. There are already hundreds of thousands of water refugees in Afghanistan, for instance, their plight exacerbated by the civil war. I don't think there are ready energy solutions to these problems. To these problems, yes, maybe, if there's the will. Even the US is talking of water shortages now: Florida, Low on Drinking Water... At a time when nearly every major city in Texas is desperate for more water to meet runaway population growth... Newfoundland plans to sell lake water to the United States... Australians are using 65 percent more water today than they did in the 1980s. The Australian Water Resources Assessment 2000 found that 26 percent of surface water management areas are approaching or beyond sustainable extraction limits and that 34 percent of groundwater management units are approaching or beyond sustainable extraction limits. I don't think this is much of a solution: World Bank and multinational corporations seeking to privatize world's water supply. Monsanto sees the growing crisis as a business opportunity. Monsanto, the genetically modified food giant, drew up plans to make billions of dollars out of the world's water crisis, confidential company documents reveal. (The Independent) From Africa to Asia and Australia, from Europe to the Middle East and the Americas, too many people depend on too little -- and increasingly limited -- water. Despite Herculean engineering schemes constructed to water deserts and to store and deliver water where it would otherwise not be available, demand for water will almost surely continue to outstrip supply unless we dramatically alter our behavior. (Water: The Fate of Our Most Precious Resource, Marq de Villiers.) Alter our behaviour... Last year Bill Gates went through 4.7 million gallons of water -- nearly 60 times the consumption of a typical US homeowner. His water bill was $24,828. Cheap, eh? So that puts US average annual household consumption at 78,000 gallons. 35 tons. Nearly three tons a month. How much of that goes down the toilet? I currently live in an environment where life is highly dependent upon technology and energy. This has led me to appreciate that man can probably live just about anywhere as long as he has the energy to bring his life support along and to keep it running. He can practically make water as long as he has the energy to do it. About 4 billion people don't have the energy to do it. Man CAN live just about anywhere, except at the Poles. Bushmen and Aborigines can live where there's no surface water at all. But they're not greedy and they don't waste anything. My case in point. I currently live in Saudi Arabia. Life in the past was mostly nocturnal and by a few camel herders. Now, thanks to technology and relatively cheap energy, life is fairly normal here. Of course, it has its price. My house has two humongous air-con units that run constantly in the summer when the temperature outside is at 130 F and more. For water, the compound has a deep well that brings up this stuff that only someone with a good imagination might call water. However, after running it through a reverse osmosis plant it rivals most of the stuff one might get out of the faucet in the States or Europe. Saudi Arabia is the world's largest producer of desalinated water. Basically, the main product of the petroleum fields is petroleum for export. They have this byproduct called natural gas that used to be just burned off (!). Now they are using it to run their electrical generator plants, to their way of thinking, getting something for nothing. The electrical plants have been designed as co-gen plants, and as I
RE: [biofuel] Water vs Energy Importance
Hello all Just joined the group a day or so ago. Am semi retired former aerospacer. Have been interested in alternative energy for over 25 years. Ham, KC7THL, and read a bit. Live in North America, central Montana to be more precise. The post below regarding potable water is worse than you know. 70% of drinking water in US is undrinkable in my estimation. Chemicals, hormones, drugs and fertilizer to name a few. Many taps produce a head on the glass due to soap residue. I have looked at solar stills and have come to the conclusion only cement, glass, butyl and neoprene, and painted steel are reasonably permanent construction. Efficiency is low and in the North freezing stops operation. I thought a flat plate powered multistage might perform better. Imagine a series of n shaped containers. They are in an insulated box. Source water goes in left leg of n. insulation in between the 2 legs. Good themal contact to next n and ech one in turn. Allowing a delta T of 15-20 degrees per n the same BTU transports 3 times as much if 3 n deep. Heat one end of stack and cool the other. Needs some thought re cleaning. *The next comment is re fuels.* I am told the acid hydrolysis is a reaction where you recover your chemicals except for a bit of makeup. Opens up a lot more options for fuel. If anyone has hands on with this sort of thing I would like to hear their comments and critique of the website. http://www.arkenol.com/index.html#top Specifically I want to know about the Concentrated Acid Hydrolysis methodology they describe at http://www.arkenol.com/tech01.html websites/businesses that are trying to create non-petroleum besed fuels would be a good database to construct. All the best Kirk -Original Message- From: Keith Addison [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2001 11:11 AM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [biofuel] Water vs Energy Importance Hi Derek Keith, Not to belittle your concern about water, its importance, and the likelihood of wars being fought over it, but I still tend to feel that energy in one form or another is of utmost importance. Well, yes, but water is already a crisis, and energy isn't, really - only the rather gross way it gets wasted, and the side-effects of that, might be a crisis. Okay, IS a crisis. But not one that's killing people. Or only very slowly and indirectly. So far. The trouble is that many, or even most, of the places where there are severe water-shortage problems are poor - Pakistan, Mexico, the Sahel, and so on and on. Most of Pakistan's 141.5 million people don't have access to potable water. These countries don't have a lot of energy to spare, nor a lot of technological capacity either. Or at least not where it's needed. That is not easily changed. It's not just me that says the next wars will be over water, many people are saying so. The UN says so. So does the World Bank. A report published on March 22 to coincide with World Water Day warned that two out of every three people will face water shortages by 2025. It predicted that poor countries would suffer on a massive scale. This would create 'water refugees' - millions of people forced to leave their homes in search of clean water. There are already hundreds of thousands of water refugees in Afghanistan, for instance, their plight exacerbated by the civil war. I don't think there are ready energy solutions to these problems. To these problems, yes, maybe, if there's the will. Even the US is talking of water shortages now: Florida, Low on Drinking Water... At a time when nearly every major city in Texas is desperate for more water to meet runaway population growth... Newfoundland plans to sell lake water to the United States... Australians are using 65 percent more water today than they did in the 1980s. The Australian Water Resources Assessment 2000 found that 26 percent of surface water management areas are approaching or beyond sustainable extraction limits and that 34 percent of groundwater management units are approaching or beyond sustainable extraction limits. I don't think this is much of a solution: World Bank and multinational corporations seeking to privatize world's water supply. Monsanto sees the growing crisis as a business opportunity. Monsanto, the genetically modified food giant, drew up plans to make billions of dollars out of the world's water crisis, confidential company documents reveal. (The Independent) From Africa to Asia and Australia, from Europe to the Middle East and the Americas, too many people depend on too little -- and increasingly limited -- water. Despite Herculean engineering schemes constructed to water deserts and to store and deliver water where it would otherwise not be available, demand for water will almost surely continue to outstrip supply unless we dramatically alter our behavior. (Water: The Fate of Our Most Precious Resource, Marq de Villiers.) Alter our behaviour... Last year Bill Gates went through 4.7 million gallons
RE: [biofuel] Water vs Energy Importance
This is off-topic so I'll apologize in advance and take all further discussion off-list, but water filtration is not strictly a mechanical process. Plants are very good at filtering for toxins and could be your post solar still filter. Ionizing the water pre-still or uv filtration could help cut scaling and bacteria buildup. If your using tap water your de-chlorination will probably happen in the still. I would probably inject a little chlorine bleach into the system occasionally to flush it and kill excessive bacteria buildup or a flexible wire w/a stiff nylon brush like used from cleaning gun barrels could be snaked through the solar still to aid in removing excessive bacteria. Although you could probably find organisms that live off that bacteria and/or provide food for the flora downstream. I'm not a plant expert but I have seen some nice hydroponic setups that cleaned water to beyond any levels I've seen on a strictly mechanical system. [Completly off-grid.] From there depending on how stringent your standards are you can run it through a insert micron level gravity fed charcoal filter and voila potable water. This is not new technology as it was part of the biodome project. I have also seen a grey water (shower and sink water) recycling plant in Mexico. Comlpletly gravity fed complete w/solar still and used to irrigate lawns. The flora is one of the final stage of the filtering process before the water hits the aquifer. At which point it contains less toxins than the rain that falls in Mexico. I have pictures and probably the hard facts in my files somewhere. The problem is they are in Spanish and Yo no habla espanol. Alta-vista doesnt do scientific terms. So now for the big tie-in. I know this isnt exactly bio-fuel for the car. But it is biolfuel for nature from waste. Reclaiming grey water is a great start for irrigating flora and ultimatly replenishing the aquifers. Its like liquid compost. Why waste tap water on a lawn when we have plenty of grey waste water? On another note I find that less industrialized countries are more open to alternative energies then are more industrialized ones. Industry with the support of the government is shifting the balance of nature. Mr Bush what good is technological advancement if we kill ourselves off w/the by-products? I dont want missle defense I want ozone defense. *end of sermon* cheers, cordain From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [biofuel] Water vs Energy Importance Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 11:38:41 +0900 Hello Kirk Hello all Just joined the group a day or so ago. Am semi retired former aerospacer. Have been interested in alternative energy for over 25 years. Ham, KC7THL, and read a bit. Live in North America, central Montana to be more precise. The post below regarding potable water is worse than you know. You're quite right. It's hard to describe how serious it is. I just skimmed the surface because it's a bit OT. I didn't mention Europe, for instance, where most of the rivers are in a state of crisis. There are two issues here, water availability, and water quality, very much a double crisis, with very few countries exempted. Might help a bit if Mr Gates had had to pay $24 million instead of just $24,000 for squandering all that precious water, the stuff's way too cheap (like fuel). 70% of drinking water in US is undrinkable in my estimation. Chemicals, hormones, drugs and fertilizer to name a few. Many taps produce a head on the glass due to soap residue. I have looked at solar stills and have come to the conclusion only cement, glass, butyl and neoprene, and painted steel are reasonably permanent construction. Efficiency is low and in the North freezing stops operation. I thought a flat plate powered multistage might perform better. Imagine a series of n shaped containers. They are in an insulated box. Source water goes in left leg of n. insulation in between the 2 legs. Good themal contact to next n and ech one in turn. Allowing a delta T of 15-20 degrees per n the same BTU transports 3 times as much if 3 n deep. Heat one end of stack and cool the other. Needs some thought re cleaning. *The next comment is re fuels.* I am told the acid hydrolysis is a reaction where you recover your chemicals except for a bit of makeup. Opens up a lot more options for fuel. If anyone has hands on with this sort of thing I would like to hear their comments and critique of the website. http://www.arkenol.com/index.html#top Specifically I want to know about the Concentrated Acid Hydrolysis methodology they describe at http://www.arkenol.com/tech01.html websites/businesses that are trying to create non-petroleum besed fuels would be a good database to construct. Yes, big hassle to do though, and to maintain. But there are some plans afoot for useful db's, and this is a good suggestion, thanks. All
RE: [biofuel] Water vs Energy Importance
] Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2001 11:11 AM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [biofuel] Water vs Energy Importance Hi Derek Keith, Not to belittle your concern about water, its importance, and the likelihood of wars being fought over it, but I still tend to feel that energy in one form or another is of utmost importance. snip Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [biofuel] Water vs Energy Importance
Thank you very much Keith. Kirk -Original Message- From: Keith Addison [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2001 8:39 PM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [biofuel] Water vs Energy Importance Hello Kirk Hello all Just joined the group a day or so ago. Am semi retired former aerospacer. Have been interested in alternative energy for over 25 years. Ham, KC7THL, and read a bit. Live in North America, central Montana to be more precise. The post below regarding potable water is worse than you know. You're quite right. It's hard to describe how serious it is. I just skimmed the surface because it's a bit OT. I didn't mention Europe, for instance, where most of the rivers are in a state of crisis. There are two issues here, water availability, and water quality, very much a double crisis, with very few countries exempted. Might help a bit if Mr Gates had had to pay $24 million instead of just $24,000 for squandering all that precious water, the stuff's way too cheap (like fuel). --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.252 / Virus Database: 125 - Release Date: 5/9/2001 Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [biofuel] Water vs Energy Importance
Thank you very much Keith. Kirk You're most welcome, Kirk. :-) Keith Addison Journey to Forever Handmade Projects Tokyo http://journeytoforever.org/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Water vs Energy Importance
Keith, Not to belittle your concern about water, its importance, and the likelihood of wars being fought over it, but I still tend to feel that energy in one form or another is of utmost importance. I currently live in an environment where life is highly dependent upon technology and energy. This has led me to appreciate that man can probably live just about anywhere as long as he has the energy to bring his life support along and to keep it running. He can practically make water as long as he has the energy to do it. My case in point. I currently live in Saudi Arabia. Life in the past was mostly nocturnal and by a few camel herders. Now, thanks to technology and relatively cheap energy, life is fairly normal here. Of course, it has its price. My house has two humongous air-con units that run constantly in the summer when the temperature outside is at 130 F and more. For water, the compound has a deep well that brings up this stuff that only someone with a good imagination might call water. However, after running it through a reverse osmosis plant it rivals most of the stuff one might get out of the faucet in the States or Europe. Saudi Arabia is the world's largest producer of desalinated water. Basically, the main product of the petroleum fields is petroleum for export. They have this byproduct called natural gas that used to be just burned off (!). Now they are using it to run their electrical generator plants, to their way of thinking, getting something for nothing. The electrical plants have been designed as co-gen plants, and as I understand the process, the waste heat from the electrical generation is used in a process of evaporative desalination. So, they get gobs of water from the sea as a byproduct of electrical generation. Consequently, in one of the driest of spots on the globe, there is plenty of water. And guys, please don't flame me on the waste of energy, etc. I'm not saying that I think this is a great idea and the way it should be. I'm basically stating what I have observed. But still, the water goes around and around and is recycled in nature. The supply of water mostly becomes a problem by being impure or not being in the right place at the right time. Energy use can change that. Therefore, I tend to think that of the two the most fundamentally important is plentiful energy. Derek W. Hargis [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2001 10:43 AM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Musings about toilet tissue Major Snip I'm rather alarmed by the fact that, in China at least, they're increasingly using flush toilets, surely the most wasteful device ever invented. And this at a time when water is increasingly being seen as THE scarce resource (not oil), over which future wars are likely to be fought (again, not oil). Along with the immense waste of soil fertility and resulting pollution. Truly insane. This in a country that's maintained its soil fertility and fed its growing population for 40 centuries. And they're far from alone. There's some background here: http://journeytoforever.org/compost_humanure.html Humanure Major Snip Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
