t-and-f: Ras na hEireann Preview
The Irish Times Thursday, January 10, 2002 Ian O'Riordan Almost all the Irish contenders for the coming World Cross Country Championships in Dublin will be racing in Dunleer this Sunday in the 33rd edition of the Rás na hÉireann. With the Leopardstown event now just 10 weeks away, this year's race takes on extra significance as a test of mid-season form. The worrying crash by the men's team at last month's European Championships in Switzerland left many of the leading names low in confidence, which is one reason why the likes of Seamus Power and Peter Mathews won't be holding anything back. Power will return to defend his title, but local runner Keith Kelly, the former American collegiate champion, is ruled out because of injury. The African presence has been kept to the minimum - Ethiopia's Alemu Dagne is the only name - and that will be further incentive for the Irish. The race organisers have also confirmed the entry of the top trio of English runners - Karl Keska, Sam Haughian and Ben Noad. Along with Mathews, the home challenge will come from Dublin's Vinny Mulvey, and Fiachra Lombard and Martin McCarthy of Cork. The women's race is set up for an intriguing head-to-head between Anne Keenan-Buckley and Rosemary Ryan. Despite turning 40 last Monday, Keenan-Buckley is still proving herself the woman to beat on the domestic front. But Ryan is also approaching her best form. American champion Priscella Hein will provide the main international element. The Rás na hÉireann is also the second of six races in the AAI Grand Prix cross country series, which has an overall prize fund of ?7,000 (£5,500). Next up is the IAAF Challenge in Stormont Estate, Belfast, on Saturday week. Eight cities have entered the reopened bidding for the 2005 World Championships after Britain's withdrawal was officially confirmed. Brussels, Budapest, Helsinki, Berlin, Munich, Stuttgart, Rome and Moscow have all sent letters of intent to the IAAF expressing an interest in staging the event. Eamonn Condon www.RunnersGoal.com
t-and-f: Physical limits to the mile revisited
I was going through the old Vanderbilt year books and scrapbooks, recreating the history of Vanderbilt track & field. The men's program started in 1896. The yearbook had 2-4 pages on the track team from around 1902 and on. The scrap book was made up of newspaper clippings cut out whenever a Spring Vanderbilt sports story was printed from 1949-1960. Really cool books. Found this article on a Vanderbilt runner who had transferred from Georgetown, Fred Abington, and dropped his time from 4:24 in his first race, to 4:07, and in 1958! It was really neat to follow his progression as their were stories twice a week in the newspapers - remember in those days, only baseball was big. I found this story in the 4.29.58 Nashville Banner article, talking about Fred, how he ran 9:44 for 2 miles, then came back and ran an amazing 4:17, in Lexington, to get the Vanderbilt record, and only 3 seconds off the SEC record. I will pick up the story after describing Fred's times: "Is there a human limit on how fast a mile can be run? Dr. Peter V. Karpovich, research professor of physiology at Springfield (Mass.) college, says there is and puts it at 3:56.6. He acknowledges that some outright physical freak might surpass that limit but asserts this is the minimum time which normal milers of the greatest excellence will ever do. For years the four-minute mile was a psychological barrier. Once broken, it was easy for others to break it again. Dr. Karpovich believes the 3:56.6 mile is the final physical barrier. That will use up the maximum amount of oxygen the human body can handle." Jim Spivey Freak Vanderbilt women's cross-country and assistant track coach [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: t-and-f: First sub-4:00 African (was Keino (was:: Solutionfor 1500m standard problem))
Penguins run slow. Ask Runners World. Ed Koch -Original Message- From: Randall Northam <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Tom Derderian <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: posting <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: Tuesday, January 08, 2002 6:37 PM Subject: Re: t-and-f: First sub-4:00 African (was Keino (was:: Solutionfor 1500m standard problem)) >on 8/1/02 15:55, Tom Derderian at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > >> bold prediction: >> No one from Antarctia will ever break 4:00 for the mile or even 1500. >> td >Those seals are the wrong body shape, everyone knows that >Randall Northam >
Re: t-and-f: Sports code of conduct
In a message dated 1/9/02 2:40:31 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: >Does this have meaning when it comes to race strategy?- >i.e. always go for a PR, or at least the absolute best >time that you could possibly run on that day, versus >going out slow in a VIM (Very-Important-Meet) because >you know you have a better finishing kick than your >primary competitor? I remember being told by a great Villanova runner (I can't recall now if it was Eamonn Coghlan or Mark Belger) that the key was to always run to win; eventually you will come up against someone very fast, and to win you will have to run fast as well. Pretty simple, really. Jim Gerweck Running Times
Re: t-and-f: Pre-league records
In a message dated 1/9/02 6:29:06 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > But at any given point in time, it is possible >to define what schools are in the league, so if you are going to have >league-wide records, my opinion is that they can only be valid when done >by an athlete at a school that is in the league at the time of the performance. > right. For example, there's at least one school whose record in the javelin is some 20 ft. better than the league record, b/c they were in another league at the time. What makes the original post's situation a bit different is that there was no formalized league at the time of the record setting performance, although the athlete's school became a charter member when it was formed several years later. Jim Gerweck Running Times
Re: Re: t-and-f: Pre-league records
>Absolutely it should still stand if the league is still the same basic >entity with just a few teams added or removed. Obviously leagues can >change >their names and take other structural measures that would make it a grey >area, but simply removing a team or two shouldn't make the records invalid. This has me thinking - what should be done about records for the WAC and Mountain West conferences? The Western Athletic Conference (WAC) started some time ago (in the 60s I think) consisting of 8 schools - all in the Mountain time zone. In the 70s Arizona and Arizona State left to join the PAC 8, boosting it to PAC 10. To fill in the gap the WAC added a 3 schools - Hawaii, San Diego State, and UNLV. A decade or so later the WAC went on a growth binge and added a whole bunch of far-slung schools, essentially doubling in size. It soon became apparent that this bloated conference was too big and unwieldy, so a group of schools, consisting of all the original WAC schools except UTEP and all of the first round of added schools except Hawaii, broke away to form the Mountain West conference. So the Mountain West conference membership is almost identical to the what the WAC was through much of the 70s and 80s. But the WAC itself still exists with all these other new schools. What would would you make of old WAC records from the 70s? Are they still WAC records, or should the Mountain West claim them? Could both conferences claim them? It's an interesting case. Kurt Bray _ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.
t-and-f: Revised Dr. Track web site
To All Interested Parties: With the start of the new year, the Dr. Track web site (http://www.drtrack.com) has received a face lift and is completely revised. The Dr. Track web site is: Home of the International Junior Elite Track and Field Camp and Information Source for High School Track & Field / Cross Country in Upstate New York. There are a number of new features added to the site. These features include: COACHING NEWS: We are accepting and posting articles for use by coaches and athletes. Articles and clinic notes about coaching techniques, approaches to training, technical and scientific topics, and motivational topics are of interest. If you or anyone you know would be interested in having an article or clinic notes posted, please send them (in electronic format) to [EMAIL PROTECTED] We currently have sprints, hurdles, and relays articles by Tony Veney and Cedric Walker, a long jump article by Tony Veney, and a hammer throw article by Bonnie Edmonson. ATHLETE PROFILES: This is for high school athletes from around the world. MEET RESULTS WITH STORIES: The results are focused on meets from Upstate New York and those meets where athletes from Upstate New York compete. CROSS LINK PROGRAM: We will accept and include links from interested web site who place a link to the DrTrack web site on their site. LINKS PAGE: SCHOOL PROFILES: We will highlight the various high school programs in New York State. Those schools that are interested simply have to request to be included. WHERE ARE THEY NOW? This feature is in development and will include information on the past stars from the area (Upstate New York). We want these reports on athletes from the area who have gone beyond high school with their T&F activities to be motivational and positive examples of the benefits of staying in the sport (and in school). Camp specific items: CAMPER TESTIMONIALS: What campers thought about the camp. PERFORMANCE IMPROVEMENTS: How campers improved after attending the camp. SPONSORS PAGE: We highlight the sponsors for the camp and clinic here. The 2002 edition of the camp and clinic will again be held at Alfred State College: Date for the camp and clinic are: Camp: Sunday, July 7, 2002 to Thursday, July 11, 2002. Clinic: Thursday, July 11, 2002 and Friday, July 12, 2002. The brochure for the 2002 camp/clinic is posted to the web site. Camp / Clinic staff for 2002: Sprints:Mike Holloway, University of Florida Hurdles:Tony Veney, Portland State University Pole Vault: Dave Nielsen, Idaho State University (Coach of Stacey Draglia, Women's World Record holder in the Pole Vault) High Jump: Sue Rembao, USATF Junior Elite High Jump Coordinator LJ/TJ: Jack Warner, Jr., Ohio State University Distance: John Rembao, Southern Methodist University Throws: Sandy Fowler, University of Alabama Full details about the camp/clinic staff are on the Dr. Track web site. Best wishes for continued success and for a very Happy and Prosperous New Year. Please let me know if there are any questions / comments / suggestions. Sincerely, Marc R. Grosso, Ph.D. Dr. Track Camp Director (585) 425-4925 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: t-and-f: Sports code of conduct
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > Yet some people say that sportsmanship awards are only good to > wallpaper an outhouse- that gold, silver and bronze are the > only things that have value in our society. > True or false? > Is helping a seriously injured competitor something else you > would try to teach your kids? Taking it a step further, is it > a DUTY, and not just a meritorious thing to do? > > RT In my opinion, yes, but then again I have a well wall papered outhouse so what do I know. I was in a 10km in Cambridge Ontario many years ago and it was over 90 and a one competitor collapsed in the heat and cracked his head open. A friend of mine was also in the race and he stopped to help the guy until more help arrived. He got more press than anyone else. The article is likely hanging in his outhouse. Ran back to Brantford as a 15 mile cool down that day but that's for another thread. Regards, Martin
Re: t-and-f: Pre-league records
> --- Ed and Dana Parrot <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > My analogy was that an athlete should have the same relationship to his > > school in terms of setting a record as a school should have to the > > league. > > Why? School affiliation is very well defined in most cases, whereas > league affiliate tends to be rather weak. Schools often switch leagues, > are not part of any league, or are affiliated with multiple leagues. How many schools have switched leagues more than once in a 5 year period - 1%?, 2%? It is a very small number. And league affiliation is certainly well-defined. Any school can tell you what league(s) it is affiliated with and any league can tell you who is in the league. Sure, it changes from time to time, possibly even regularly. The simple answer, as someone suggested, is to not have league records but instead to have league championship meet records. But at any given point in time, it is possible to define what schools are in the league, so if you are going to have league-wide records, my opinion is that they can only be valid when done by an athlete at a school that is in the league at the time of the performance. - Ed Parrot
Re: t-and-f: Sports code of conduct
- > > Comments? > > Would you teach YOUR kid that trying to win is important, > but always doing your best is even MORE important? > I tell my daughters who are 10 and 12 running 2 and 5 on their middle school x-c team that trying to win is what you do but that actually winning depends on what others do. Then I add that the only races I ever won were because the really good guys were somewhere else. (some of them are even on this list) I also say that if a runner from another team starts to run off the course they should shout at her to get back on the course as soon as they notice. But tactics to try to win such as going out fast and pulling the other runner out to burn him or her off or waiting to kick or surging or sprinting up /down a hill or in anticipation of a turn or mud are all the few bits of gamesmanship that that we have in our brutally simple sport to make it interesting. No races are not all time trials. That would be boring. It is wrong to imped another runner's progress but essential to defend your space. Tom Derderian
Re: t-and-f: Pre-league records
--- Ed and Dana Parrot <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > My analogy was that an athlete should have the same relationship to his > school in terms of setting a record as a school should have to the > league. Why? School affiliation is very well defined in most cases, whereas league affiliate tends to be rather weak. Schools often switch leagues, are not part of any league, or are affiliated with multiple leagues. > Anything the athlete does before or after joining a school will not be > considered for that school's record Agreed. > just as anything a school does before or after joining a > league should be considered for that league's record. That's where the analogy breaks down, in my mind. The league definition is too vague for it to be that simple of a justification. --- Ed and Dana Parrot <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Excellent point by Marty Post. It all depends on whether you interpret > germany as "merging", or as one country joining the other. If two > leagues were to merge, I'd see no reason not to keep the best record of > the two, which is exactly what Germany did. But it certainly does point > out that the situation is slightly less clear than I had first thought. Given that example, if leagues can merge and take on the best of the previous leagues' records, how is that any more meaningful than taking on the record of a school new to the league or from schools in the league that were set before the league was formed? What if when the leagues merged, new schools were added or some left for another league? Do they discount old records from the new schools or wipe out those of everyone because the schools leaving changed the playing field? Dan = http://AccountBiller.com - MyCalendar, D-Man, ReSearch, etc. http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Fantasy T&F @o Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED] <|\/ <^- ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) _/ \ \/\ [EMAIL PROTECTED] (lifetime forwarding address) / / (503)370-9969 phone/fax __ Do You Yahoo!? Send FREE video emails in Yahoo! Mail! http://promo.yahoo.com/videomail/
t-and-f: Nick Russi
Don't worry about Nick. He's a very capable, no-nonsense kind of person. Has a good background from his days with Sportinformation, a sports news agency in Switzerland.
Re: t-and-f: Pre-league records
Excellent point by Marty Post. It all depends on whether you interpret germany as "merging", or as one country joining the other. If two leagues were to merge, I'd see no reason not to keep the best record of the two, which is exactly what Germany did. But it certainly does point out that the situation is slightly less clear than I had first thought. Knowing the way people bicker in Connecticut high school track (which is what triggered this thread), I suspect that whatever they decide will not be a unanimous decision. - Ed Parrot - Original Message - From: "Post, Marty" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2002 10:20 AM Subject: RE: t-and-f: Pre-league records > It seems a number of athletics federations around the world don't adhere to > this principal when it comes to recognizing national records. > > For example, as listed in Winfried Kramer's national athletics records > booklet, most of the current German women's records were set by athletes > competing under the banner of the German Democratic Republic (East Germany). > And, going the other way, when the Soviet Union broke up, a lot of the new > federations grandfathered/grandmothered as national records marks by USSR > athletes rather than start from when the new nation was formed (or > re-formed). > > -Original Message- > From: Ed and Dana Parrot [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2002 10:49 AM > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: Re: t-and-f: Pre-league records > > > Jim - > > > Should a mark set by someone from a league member school prior to the > formal organization of the league be >considered the league record? > > My gut feeling is no, therefore giving rise to the possibility that a > school record could be better than the league mark >(which is not a > problem). This is more to determine what the existing league record was > (and by extension > > whether it was broken in a meet last weekend) > > Much easier than the four minute mile question (although poring through an > old T&F News issue is very enjoyable) - of course not. A league is an > entity that din't exist when the mark was set. If an 8th grader in a middle > school runs 4:15 for the mile, and didn't get faster when he got to high > school, the high school wouldn't consider that the school record. It's the > same thing. > > > - Ed Parrot > >
t-and-f: USATF Release: Michelsohn named Athlete of the Week
-- Forwarded message -- From: "USATF Communications" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: USATF Release: Michelsohn named Athlete of the Week Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2002 16:15:28 -0500 Contact:Tom Surber Media Information Manager USA Track & Field (317) 261-0500 x317 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.usatf.org FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE January 8, 2002 Michelsohn named Athlete of the Week INDIANAPOLIS Mary-Louise Michelsohn has been named USA Track & Fields Athlete of the Week after setting a new masters world record over the weekend at a meet in Brentwood on Long Island in New York. Michelsohn, 60, of Stony Brook, N.Y., set a new world and American record in the 1,500 meters in the 60-64 age group. Michelsohn, who competes for the Bohemia Track Club, ran 5:50.2. Now in its second year, USATFs Athlete of the Week program is designed to recognize outstanding performers at all levels of the sport. USATF names a new honoree each week and features the athlete on the USATF Web site. Selections are based on top performances and results from the previous week. 2002 USATF Athlete of the Week Winners: January 3, Jim Garcia; January 8, Mary-Louise Michelsohn. # # # CORRECTION: USATFs News & Notes on Monday mistakenly reported that Kathy Martins performance of 5:02.8 in the 1,500 meters over the weekend in Brentwood was a masters world record. Although the performance does not qualify as a world record, it is an American record in the 50-54 age group. PLEASE DO NOT REPLY TO THIS MESSAGE: If you would like to respond, please direct your e-mail to the "Contact" person listed at the top of the text of this message. To be removed from this mailing list or to notify us of a change in your e-mail address, send a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
t-and-f: Ancient T&F medals
I have been approached by an estate agent who has uncovered a cache of 28 medals (25 of them gold) won by Irv Baxter, the 1900 Olympic HJ and PV champ. Most of the medals are from his national AAU championships and Met (NYC) AAU champs. He won the nat'l AAU HJ in 1897, '98, '99, '00 and '02, and the nat'l AAU PV in '99. No Olympic medals are among the set because the IOC had not begun to strike their own medals. Baxter was graduated from Univ. Pennsylvania in 1901 with a law degree, returned to his hometown of Utica, N.Y., where he became a lawyer. He eventually argued two cases before the U.S. Supreme Court, one on behalf of the New York Gambino family involving the Volstead Act and claiming illegal search and seizure of a liquor shipment from Canada. The seller desires to keep the set together. The gold content is assayed at c.$3000. The final price may be negotiable. Penn has no acquisitions fund for such a collection, and I am in the process of contacting a variety of museums and individuals, generally with very little luck. My only interest, and that of Penn and the Penn Relays, is to keep the set together. If you are interested as a potential buyer, please contact me off-list. Dave Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED]
t-and-f: RE: Pre-Nation records
>From: "Post, Marty" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> ... >It seems a number of athletics federations around the world don't adhere to >this principal when it comes to recognizing national records. ... >And, going the other way, when the Soviet Union broke up, a lot of the new >federations grandfathered/grandmothered as national records marks by USSR >athletes rather than start from when the new nation was formed (or >re-formed). Of course, many of those Soviet republics had issues with, or didn't recognize being part of, the Soviet Union, and maintained epublic records for their citizen anyway. Steve Vaitones Managing Director USA Track & Field - New England Association P.O.Box 1905 Brookline MA 02446-0016 Phone: 617 566 7600 Fax: 617 734 6322 [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.usatfne.org
t-and-f: Test-Please Ignore
_ William P. Bahnfleth, Ph.D., P.E. Associate Professor Department of Architectural Engineering The Pennsylvania State University 224 Engineering Unit A University Park, PA 16802-1416 USA voice: 814.863.2076 / fax: 814.863.4789 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.engr.psu.edu/ae/faculty/bahnfleth.htm _
RE: Re: t-and-f: Pre-league records
If an athlete set a record at a school, the record would stand as the "school record," but not as the league record if they were not in the league beforehand. If the school changes leagues due to reorganization, etc., the record still stands as the league record. I have seen this occur in the California Interscholastic Association Southern Section. Gerald -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2002 10:04 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: Re: t-and-f: Pre-league records What about if you set a record and then your school changes leagues. Does the mark still stand as a record in the old league?? Dan Doherty Original Message: - From: Ed and Dana Parrot [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2002 07:48:54 -0800 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: t-and-f: Pre-league records Jim - > Should a mark set by someone from a league member school prior to the formal organization of the league be >considered the league record? > My gut feeling is no, therefore giving rise to the possibility that a school record could be better than the league mark >(which is not a problem). This is more to determine what the existing league record was (and by extension > whether it was broken in a meet last weekend) Much easier than the four minute mile question (although poring through an old T&F News issue is very enjoyable) - of course not. A league is an entity that din't exist when the mark was set. If an 8th grader in a middle school runs 4:15 for the mile, and didn't get faster when he got to high school, the high school wouldn't consider that the school record. It's the same thing. - Ed Parrot mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ .
t-and-f: Sports code of conduct
I've been watching the hockey-dad trial on Court TV (where a fistfight between a player's dad and the coach resulted in the death of the coach from head injury) During a lunch break in the trial, the TV network brought on a guest commentator who said that there's a movement underway to require parents of kids in youth sport leagues to sign up to a parental code of conduct, which has 15 statements (all shown on the TV), including this one: I will teach my child that doing my best is more important than winning. This one has direct ties to our sport (track & field)- in fact the whole term "PR" or "personal best" has always had relevance. But I'm not sure that everyone on this list supports it. In fact, those who aspire to long term improvement and betterment are sometimes belittled because they might not have a 'killer' instict in head-to-head competition. Races in Europe with rabbits, intended to help produce PRs (and newspaper headlines for WR's), are criticized on this list as often as not. Yesterday I heard that it's unlikely that meets in the U.S. can product OG A-standard times in the 1500, possibly because head-to-head is emphasized more than PR-setups and 'hot times'. Comments? Would you teach YOUR kid that trying to win is important, but always doing your best is even MORE important? Does this have meaning when it comes to race strategy?- i.e. always go for a PR, or at least the absolute best time that you could possibly run on that day, versus going out slow in a VIM (Very-Important-Meet) because you know you have a better finishing kick than your primary competitor? Or does 'always do your best' mean the race strategy itself- i.e. 'your best' is really determined by the finish place ? If the finish place itself is the objective, does the ends justify the means (the race strategy)? The rewards associated with a meet like the American Olympic Trials are directly tied to PLACE rather than time or distance. So what's an athlete supposed to do? What IS the objective? Make an Olympic team or run a PR? (or jump or throw a PR) By the way, I'm assuming that if you're training to 'peak' at a certain time, this code item means you do the best you could possibly do, GIVEN where you are in your training. So PRs are not always possible every day of the year, of course. Or if you're assigned Lane 1 in an indoor 200m race, you do the best you can possibly do, given the circumstances. Related question: On a 'back loop' in a cross country race, does stopping to attend to a seriously injured competitor have merit if it means sacrificing one's own race results? (don't laugh- it actually happened to my mother-in-law some 70 years ago as a schoolgirl in Ireland- she got a special sportsmanship award from the Irish school competition people, after stopping to help a competitor who fell and got a compound fracture, when she could have moved into the race lead) The family said the story behind this 'ribbon in a shoebox' was indicative of the way she lived her entire 70-year life (she's deceased now). Yet some people say that sportsmanship awards are only good to wallpaper an outhouse- that gold, silver and bronze are the only things that have value in our society. True or false? Is helping a seriously injured competitor something else you would try to teach your kids? Taking it a step further, is it a DUTY, and not just a meritorious thing to do? RT
RE: t-and-f: Pre-league records
It seems a number of athletics federations around the world don't adhere to this principal when it comes to recognizing national records. For example, as listed in Winfried Kramer's national athletics records booklet, most of the current German women's records were set by athletes competing under the banner of the German Democratic Republic (East Germany). And, going the other way, when the Soviet Union broke up, a lot of the new federations grandfathered/grandmothered as national records marks by USSR athletes rather than start from when the new nation was formed (or re-formed). -Original Message- From: Ed and Dana Parrot [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2002 10:49 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: t-and-f: Pre-league records Jim - > Should a mark set by someone from a league member school prior to the formal organization of the league be >considered the league record? > My gut feeling is no, therefore giving rise to the possibility that a school record could be better than the league mark >(which is not a problem). This is more to determine what the existing league record was (and by extension > whether it was broken in a meet last weekend) Much easier than the four minute mile question (although poring through an old T&F News issue is very enjoyable) - of course not. A league is an entity that din't exist when the mark was set. If an 8th grader in a middle school runs 4:15 for the mile, and didn't get faster when he got to high school, the high school wouldn't consider that the school record. It's the same thing. - Ed Parrot
RE: Re: t-and-f: Pre-league records
That's the problem, isn't it. The same mark could be a record in multiple conferences. Keeping records only for league meet performances seems to solve the problem neatly. What bugs me a lot more is that many US schools have records based on bastard metric distances that are not remotely comparable to times at imperial distances set prior to the change. I provided proof of same to my HS a couple of years ago and they weren't interested although the 3200m record, for example, is almost 0:40 slower than the 2m record set in 1973. The jump and throw marks are all that have been retained and they were all set between 1969 and 1972. Bill Bahnfleth At 01:03 PM 1/9/2002 -0500, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: >What about if you set a record and then your school changes leagues. Does >the mark still stand as a record in the old league?? > >Dan Doherty > >Original Message: >- >From: Ed and Dana Parrot [EMAIL PROTECTED] >Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2002 07:48:54 -0800 >To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >Subject: Re: t-and-f: Pre-league records > > >Jim - > > > Should a mark set by someone from a league member school prior to the >formal organization of the league be >considered the league record? > > My gut feeling is no, therefore giving rise to the possibility that a >school record could be better than the league mark >(which is not a >problem). This is more to determine what the existing league record was >(and by extension > > whether it was broken in a meet last weekend) > >Much easier than the four minute mile question (although poring through an >old T&F News issue is very enjoyable) - of course not. A league is an >entity that din't exist when the mark was set. If an 8th grader in a middle >school runs 4:15 for the mile, and didn't get faster when he got to high >school, the high school wouldn't consider that the school record. It's the >same thing. > > >- Ed Parrot > > >mail2web - Check your email from the web at >http://mail2web.com/ . _ William P. Bahnfleth, Ph.D., P.E. Associate Professor Department of Architectural Engineering The Pennsylvania State University 224 Engineering Unit A University Park, PA 16802-1416 USA voice: 814.863.2076 / fax: 814.863.4789 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.engr.psu.edu/ae/faculty/bahnfleth.htm _
RE: t-and-f: time for a summit meeting
There are a lot of good things about Moscow, but the Russian mafia and its violent behavior make it a "dangerous" place to visit! There are very few places that I won't go, but until things change, Moscow is not on my list. Gerald -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of P.F.Talbot Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2002 9:29 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: t-and-f: time for a summit meeting Actually, Moscow wouldn't be that bad in this day and age. Great restaurants, nightlife and touristy things plus one of the worlds best (and cheapest) public transportation systems. However, if you don't speak any Russian or at least can't learn to negotiate the cyrillic alphabet for place names it could be rough to get around. But certainly one of the more fun cities to go to for a short time. It's kind of like taking New York and adding in Las Vegas. On Tue, 8 Jan 2002 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > < federations/cities have expressed interest in bidding for the World Championships in 2005 by sending a letter of intent. > > Delegates from Belgium (Brussels), Hungary (Budapest), Finland (Helsinki), Germany (Berlin, Munich and Stuttgart), Italy (Rome) and Russia (Moscow) > will visit the IAAF Headquarters>> > > can i suggest that we need a new ABM treaty. > Anything But Moscow! > > gh > *** Paul Talbot Department of Geography/ Institute of Behavioral Science University of Colorado, Boulder Boulder CO 80309-0260 (303) 492-3248 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
t-and-f: Re:
> I don't know what the answer to this question is (my gut feeling is it should count), but I must object to Ed's analogy >below. Hardly the same thing -- the original question refers to the same school, just before it had the league >categorization, while the response is two different schools (which obviously circumvents the league aspect of the >question). My analogy was that an athlete should have the same relationship to his school in terms of setting a record as a school should have to the league. Anything the athlete does before or after joining a school will not be considered for that school's record (even if he attended no school before that), just as anything a school does before or after joining a league should be considered for that league's record. - Ed PArrot
Re: Re: t-and-f: Pre-league records
Absolutely it should still stand if the league is still the same basic entity with just a few teams added or removed. Obviously leagues can change their names and take other structural measures that would make it a grey area, but simply removing a team or two shouldn't make the records invalid. I think if you look at some of the college leagues, you'll find it works this way (although I don't know for sure)- I suspect that Penn State might still have a record or two in the Atlantic 10 and if they had fast school records when they joind the Big East, it's impossible to conceive that hose records would have become the Big East conference records. - Ed Parrot - Original Message - From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2002 10:03 AM Subject: RE: Re: t-and-f: Pre-league records What about if you set a record and then your school changes leagues. Does the mark still stand as a record in the old league?? Dan Doherty Original Message: - From: Ed and Dana Parrot [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2002 07:48:54 -0800 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: t-and-f: Pre-league records Jim - > Should a mark set by someone from a league member school prior to the formal organization of the league be >considered the league record? > My gut feeling is no, therefore giving rise to the possibility that a school record could be better than the league mark >(which is not a problem). This is more to determine what the existing league record was (and by extension > whether it was broken in a meet last weekend) Much easier than the four minute mile question (although poring through an old T&F News issue is very enjoyable) - of course not. A league is an entity that din't exist when the mark was set. If an 8th grader in a middle school runs 4:15 for the mile, and didn't get faster when he got to high school, the high school wouldn't consider that the school record. It's the same thing. - Ed Parrot mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ .
t-and-f: Endurace Ojokolo excluded from Commonwealth Games
President of the athletic Federation of Nigeria (AFN) Dan Ngerem has formally announced the exclusion of female sprint star Endurance Ojokolo from the Commonwealth Games for abusing British Welfare procedures. Ngerem said during a media chat in Lagos that the athlete who may have been evading the Scottland yard Police scuttled attempts made by the federation to know the extent of her problems and ways of assisting her. "I sent two letters to Endurance just to know the magnitude of the problem and perhaps find a way of assisting her, but she did not reply. When I learnt she was in Canada, I made enquiries through the phone with a view of knowing what the problems and if she could do with a lawyer. She promised to get across to me but it was to no avail," Ngerem said. He contended that since the athlete has made up her mind to hide her problems, the federation has no option than to drop her from the Commonwealth team until she clears herself. "The nation's contingent to the Commonwealth Games can't afford any embarrassment from the British Police. If any member of the contingent is arrested for any offence it would be harmful to the nation's image. That is why the AFN took the action but she could be re-invited to the team after clearance from the British police," Ngerem enthused. Ojokolo, twice winner of Nigerian athletic Trials was reported by British Newspaper to have abused her daughter's welfare claims by falsifying the baby's paternity. When the lid blew open, Ojokolo was arrested, interrogated. She was said to have afterwards jumped bail. Winfried Kramer Kohlrodweg 12 66539 Neunkirchen/Germany Association of Track & Field Statisticians Editor of NATIONAL ATHLETICS RECORDS www.saar.de/~kramer
t-and-f: Re:
My gut and my reason tell me "No, it should not count." This past November a reporter called my father to ask if I had won three straight XC championships in high school. He remembered (correctly) that I had been second my sophomore year, and then he asked the journalist why he was interested in such ancient history (60s). Apparently a runner attending another high school in my old school's conference was shooting for the hat trick, and the reporter was trying to figure out if (or when) it had happened before. My problem with it (when I learned of the exchange) is that my old school is in a different conference now (of recent vintage; the old conference still exists, with most of the same schools). Even if I had won three titles in a row in conference A, why should that be relevant to a conference B (and its records) that wouldn't even exist for decades? In fact, there's a good chance that my school mile record (which still stands, long ago eclipsed as the record in my old conference) is faster than any mile that's been run in the (weaker) new conference. I sure can't think of a compelling reason why it should be the conference record in the new league! Of course, since we all run 1600s now... (don't get me started). I agree with Ed: league marks start being kept the first day the league exists. Steve At 09:23 AM 1/9/02 -0800, Dan Kaplan wrote: >I don't know what the answer to this question is (my gut feeling is it >should count), but I must object to Ed's analogy below. Hardly the same >thing -- the original question refers to the same school, just before it >had the league categorization, while the response is two different schools >(which obviously circumvents the league aspect of the question). > >Dan > >--- Ed and Dana Parrot <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Jim - > > > > > Should a mark set by someone from a league member school prior to the > > formal organization of the league be >considered the league record? > > > My gut feeling is no, therefore giving rise to the possibility that a > > school record could be better than the league mark >(which is not a > > problem). This is more to determine what the existing league record was > > (and by extension whether it was broken in a meet last weekend) > > > > Much easier than the four minute mile question (although poring through > > an old T&F News issue is very enjoyable) - of course not. A league is >an > > entity that din't exist when the mark was set. If an 8th grader in a > > middle > > school runs 4:15 for the mile, and didn't get faster when he got to high > > school, the high school wouldn't consider that the school record. It's > > the same thing. > > > > - Ed Parrot -- Steve Grathwohl * [EMAIL PROTECTED] "You need to have a compulsive relationship with the music.You have got to like human beings, even if you despise the human race, because other people are going to make the noises, and you aren't going to do a damn thing." ---Sir Colin Davis on conducting
t-and-f: Re:
A league (or "conference" record) is not just a compendium of the best of all the school records of the schools which are currently members. Otherwise, Kansas could change allegiances, join the SEC (heaven help us!), and the SEC Mile record would suddenly be Jim Ryun's 3:51.1. Ridiculous, right? Well, the corollary is also true, a conference record should not be wiped out just because a member school drops OUT of the conference. The only way to keep it straight is to recognize records set by an athlete who was affiliated with any team which was a bona fide member of the league, conference, federation, etc, AT THE TIME THE MARK WAS ACHIEVED. By the way, that DOESN'T mean allow only records achieved in the conference championship meet. Those are called MEET RECORDS, a totally different thing. But it's a distinction which, sadly, is not understood by people at many levels of our sport. Now, you certainly CAN get into trivial details- like some conferences might only recognize indoor records set each year in a very specific time window, like maybe January 1st through March 20th, or something. So a school sending it's athletes to a December 20th meet might risk having an outstanding achievement go unrecognized by their conference. To me that is silly, but then the reason you're faced with it is the entire school affiliation nonsense, like whether marks set outside the school year are really "affiliated" with the school team or not. It's also indicative of power play politics by administrators- there are some league/conference administrators would like to take coaches and school AD's completely out of meet scheduling, and control it themselves, for their own purposes (which seldom benefit the athlete). I doubt the Germans or the Brits have any problem recognizing indoor records set at ANY time of the year, let alone outdoor records set any day ( or night) or the year. Instead of schools & conferences and the political baggage which comes with it all, it would probably be better if we had records by zip code, county, and state, or something like that. (On the other hand, schools are where the kids get recognition and praise by their peers.) The only recognition a postal zip code record might get you is a picture in the post office- and we all know whose pictures appear there! :-) Hah! [those guys know how to run!] You German list members- does the German federation have any sub-organizations which track records by State- like Bavaria, Thüringen, and so forth? I think the Brits keep track of distinct records for England, Scotland, Wales, etc., at least they used to. I would assume that within any state and district, you can then get the tiering of records for youth, juniors, seniors (age 20-35 or 40), masters, male, female, and so on. RT On Wed, 9 Jan 2002 09:23:33 -0800 (PST), you wrote: >I don't know what the answer to this question is (my gut feeling is it >should count), but I must object to Ed's analogy below. Hardly the same >thing -- the original question refers to the same school, just before it >had the league categorization, while the response is two different schools >(which obviously circumvents the league aspect of the question). > >Dan > >--- Ed and Dana Parrot <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> Jim - >> >> > Should a mark set by someone from a league member school prior to the >> formal organization of the league be >considered the league record? >> > My gut feeling is no, therefore giving rise to the possibility that a >> school record could be better than the league mark >(which is not a >> problem). This is more to determine what the existing league record was >> (and by extension whether it was broken in a meet last weekend) >> >> Much easier than the four minute mile question (although poring through >> an old T&F News issue is very enjoyable) - of course not. A league is >an >> entity that din't exist when the mark was set. If an 8th grader in a >> middle >> school runs 4:15 for the mile, and didn't get faster when he got to high >> school, the high school wouldn't consider that the school record. It's >> the same thing. >> >> - Ed Parrot > >= >http://AccountBiller.com - MyCalendar, D-Man, ReSearch, etc. >http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Fantasy T&F > > @o Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED] > <|\/ <^- ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) >_/ \ \/\ [EMAIL PROTECTED] (lifetime forwarding address) > / / (503)370-9969 phone/fax > >__ >Do You Yahoo!? >Send FREE video emails in Yahoo! Mail! >http://promo.yahoo.com/videomail/
RE: Re: t-and-f: Pre-league records
What about if you set a record and then your school changes leagues. Does the mark still stand as a record in the old league?? Dan Doherty Original Message: - From: Ed and Dana Parrot [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2002 07:48:54 -0800 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: t-and-f: Pre-league records Jim - > Should a mark set by someone from a league member school prior to the formal organization of the league be >considered the league record? > My gut feeling is no, therefore giving rise to the possibility that a school record could be better than the league mark >(which is not a problem). This is more to determine what the existing league record was (and by extension > whether it was broken in a meet last weekend) Much easier than the four minute mile question (although poring through an old T&F News issue is very enjoyable) - of course not. A league is an entity that din't exist when the mark was set. If an 8th grader in a middle school runs 4:15 for the mile, and didn't get faster when he got to high school, the high school wouldn't consider that the school record. It's the same thing. - Ed Parrot mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ .
[no subject]
I don't know what the answer to this question is (my gut feeling is it should count), but I must object to Ed's analogy below. Hardly the same thing -- the original question refers to the same school, just before it had the league categorization, while the response is two different schools (which obviously circumvents the league aspect of the question). Dan --- Ed and Dana Parrot <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Jim - > > > Should a mark set by someone from a league member school prior to the > formal organization of the league be >considered the league record? > > My gut feeling is no, therefore giving rise to the possibility that a > school record could be better than the league mark >(which is not a > problem). This is more to determine what the existing league record was > (and by extension whether it was broken in a meet last weekend) > > Much easier than the four minute mile question (although poring through > an old T&F News issue is very enjoyable) - of course not. A league is an > entity that din't exist when the mark was set. If an 8th grader in a > middle > school runs 4:15 for the mile, and didn't get faster when he got to high > school, the high school wouldn't consider that the school record. It's > the same thing. > > - Ed Parrot = http://AccountBiller.com - MyCalendar, D-Man, ReSearch, etc. http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Fantasy T&F @o Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED] <|\/ <^- ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) _/ \ \/\ [EMAIL PROTECTED] (lifetime forwarding address) / / (503)370-9969 phone/fax __ Do You Yahoo!? Send FREE video emails in Yahoo! Mail! http://promo.yahoo.com/videomail/
Re: t-and-f: First sub-4:00 African (was Keino (was:: Solution fo r1500m standard problem))
Interestingly enough, Keino ran 3:41.9 in Tokyo in 1964 in the semis (did he make the final?), over a second faster than Lamprechts' 1500m split when he broke 4:00 a month later. Ignoring the old argument about whether that is equal to a sub-4, was that the fastest 1500m by an African up to that point? - Ed Parrot
Re: t-and-f: Pre-league records
Jim - > Should a mark set by someone from a league member school prior to the formal organization of the league be >considered the league record? > My gut feeling is no, therefore giving rise to the possibility that a school record could be better than the league mark >(which is not a problem). This is more to determine what the existing league record was (and by extension > whether it was broken in a meet last weekend) Much easier than the four minute mile question (although poring through an old T&F News issue is very enjoyable) - of course not. A league is an entity that din't exist when the mark was set. If an 8th grader in a middle school runs 4:15 for the mile, and didn't get faster when he got to high school, the high school wouldn't consider that the school record. It's the same thing. - Ed Parrot
t-and-f: Pre-league records
OK, here's a question for the stat/record mavens: Should a mark set by someone from a league member school prior to the formal organization of the league be considered the league record? My gut feeling is no, therefore giving rise to the possibility that a school record could be better than the league mark (which is not a problem). This is more to determine what the existing league record was (and by extension whether it was broken in a meet last weekend) Thanks, Jim Gerweck Running Times
Re: t-and-f: Walk/run breaks
I wonder how many found the quotes 'interesting' rather than 'irritating'? John Bale - Original Message - From: Martin J. Dixon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Track Canada <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; Track & Field List <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2002 12:42 PM Subject: t-and-f: Walk/run breaks > Article in the Toronto Globe that is a reprint from the Wall Street Journal > so the link can't be accessed. It's about the whole walk/run thing. I know > that I should just brush it off but I can't help myself. It has the usual > quotes from whoever the "penguin" is and former runner Galloway. The 2 most > irritating quotes(to me) are: > "The paradigm has completely shifted. Running has embraced people who aren't > buying the arbitrary standard that speed is the only criterion" > > Does this mean that, eventually, there will be judges, a la synchronized > swimming, that will decide winners based on form? The cold hard reality of > the clock is the beauty of the sport. No luck, no team-mates to let you > down. Nothing. Just you and how hard and well you have trained. > > "Even so, the notion of taking walk breaks can be a tough sell, particularly > among former athletes who view running the entire race as a badge of > honour". > > No comment. > Regards, > > > Martin > > > >
t-and-f: Walk/run breaks
Article in the Toronto Globe that is a reprint from the Wall Street Journal so the link can't be accessed. It's about the whole walk/run thing. I know that I should just brush it off but I can't help myself. It has the usual quotes from whoever the "penguin" is and former runner Galloway. The 2 most irritating quotes(to me) are: "The paradigm has completely shifted. Running has embraced people who aren't buying the arbitrary standard that speed is the only criterion" Does this mean that, eventually, there will be judges, a la synchronized swimming, that will decide winners based on form? The cold hard reality of the clock is the beauty of the sport. No luck, no team-mates to let you down. Nothing. Just you and how hard and well you have trained. "Even so, the notion of taking walk breaks can be a tough sell, particularly among former athletes who view running the entire race as a badge of honour". No comment. Regards, Martin
