Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - All You Can Eat
Amigos, I no longer feel this proposal is appropriate, therefore I'm canceling it. Thanks for all your comments. I am creating another proposal to describe the serving system of a restaurant. It is based on all_you_can_eat:type from this proposal, which I found to be quite interesting when used properly. It is still in *Draft* status, and can be seen in the following link: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Serving_System Cheers, John 2014-02-24 16:38 GMT-03:00 Fernando Trebien fernando.treb...@gmail.com: I remember having been to restaurants here in Brazil where the food that is served as all you can eat is not exactly the same as the one you may order from a regular menu. Not far from my home there is a restaurant that serves 3 cuisines at different times of the day (italian and japanese for dinner, and an all-you-can-eat regional buffet for lunch; I'm sure but they may operate a cafe for breakfast). Place all the values in the cuisine tag and you won't be able to tell at which time each cuisine is offered. How do you express that the all-you-can-eat service is offered only for the regional cuisine? Answer: you need 2 objects (nodes or areas) for that. But anyway, I'm with Martin, it's best to use :service_times to avoid confusion with the regular opening_hours tag. The place is usually open (offering its regular service) for a longer period than that in which it offers an all you can eat service. On Sat, Feb 22, 2014 at 4:37 PM, Paul Johnson ba...@ursamundi.org wrote: On Monday, February 17, 2014, Steve Doerr doerr.step...@gmail.com wrote: On 17/02/2014 18:04, Fernando Trebien wrote: I still think that opening_hours as a subtag would be an unnecessary specialization that would only be needed rarely. Can you provide an example in which you would not be able to represent that information in a different way? (such as using two or more geometric objects) It's quite common in the UK for a restaurant to operate as a normal, a la carte restaurant most of the week, and offer an all-you-can-eat buffet on, say, Sundays. I'm at a loss to understand why that would be represented as two separate geometric objects. Yeah, I've been trying to think of a use case scenario that makes sense for this, and I can't. It seems to be more in line with the expectation typical by cuisine. For instance, Genghis Grill seems to be about the only chain around that doesn't consider Mongolian. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging -- Fernando Trebien +55 (51) 9962-5409 The speed of computer chips doubles every 18 months. (Moore's law) The speed of software halves every 18 months. (Gates' law) ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - All You Can Eat
On Fri, Feb 28, 2014 at 4:15 PM, John Packer john.pack...@gmail.com wrote: Amigos, I no longer feel this proposal is appropriate, therefore I'm canceling it. Thanks for all your comments. Remember it's still OK to write a note (in the local language preferably) associated with any node. Not everything is destined to be a tag. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - All You Can Eat
When you say no longer appropriate, do you mean to say the all_you_can_eat idea is not appropriate, or that working through the approval procedure got bogged down? ;-) I feel the idea is not appropriate, at least not to my initial needs. I started this proposal to be able to tag some buffets and rodízios (which usually are all-you-can-eat), and tried to be more generic. But seeing the comments and after further reflection, I think I got off track. That's why I am drafting another proposal to directly address my needs (how to tag some kinds of serving systems). In a first reading of the new proposal I see you did not include all_you_can_eat as a value or tag and I assume you now want to use buffet, smorgasbord, etc., to indirectly say that, right? There is some overlap, but I believe tagging something as a buffet doesn't necessarily mean it would be an all-you-can-eat option. A rodízio hardly will not be an all-you-can-eat option, but this is not 100% of certainty either. 2014-02-28 21:33 GMT-03:00 Dave Swarthout daveswarth...@gmail.com: @John, When you say no longer appropriate, do you mean to say the all_you_can_eat idea is not appropriate, or that working through the approval procedure got bogged down? ;-) In a first reading of the new proposal I see you did not include all_you_can_eat as a value or tag and I assume you now want to use buffet, smorgasbord, etc., to indirectly say that, right? On Sat, Mar 1, 2014 at 7:18 AM, Bryce Nesbitt bry...@obviously.comwrote: On Fri, Feb 28, 2014 at 4:15 PM, John Packer john.pack...@gmail.comwrote: Amigos, I no longer feel this proposal is appropriate, therefore I'm canceling it. Thanks for all your comments. Remember it's still OK to write a note (in the local language preferably) associated with any node. Not everything is destined to be a tag. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging -- Dave Swarthout Homer, Alaska Chiang Mai, Thailand Travel Blog at http://dswarthout.blogspot.com ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - All You Can Eat
I remember having been to restaurants here in Brazil where the food that is served as all you can eat is not exactly the same as the one you may order from a regular menu. Not far from my home there is a restaurant that serves 3 cuisines at different times of the day (italian and japanese for dinner, and an all-you-can-eat regional buffet for lunch; I'm sure but they may operate a cafe for breakfast). Place all the values in the cuisine tag and you won't be able to tell at which time each cuisine is offered. How do you express that the all-you-can-eat service is offered only for the regional cuisine? Answer: you need 2 objects (nodes or areas) for that. But anyway, I'm with Martin, it's best to use :service_times to avoid confusion with the regular opening_hours tag. The place is usually open (offering its regular service) for a longer period than that in which it offers an all you can eat service. On Sat, Feb 22, 2014 at 4:37 PM, Paul Johnson ba...@ursamundi.org wrote: On Monday, February 17, 2014, Steve Doerr doerr.step...@gmail.com wrote: On 17/02/2014 18:04, Fernando Trebien wrote: I still think that opening_hours as a subtag would be an unnecessary specialization that would only be needed rarely. Can you provide an example in which you would not be able to represent that information in a different way? (such as using two or more geometric objects) It's quite common in the UK for a restaurant to operate as a normal, a la carte restaurant most of the week, and offer an all-you-can-eat buffet on, say, Sundays. I'm at a loss to understand why that would be represented as two separate geometric objects. Yeah, I've been trying to think of a use case scenario that makes sense for this, and I can't. It seems to be more in line with the expectation typical by cuisine. For instance, Genghis Grill seems to be about the only chain around that doesn't consider Mongolian. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging -- Fernando Trebien +55 (51) 9962-5409 The speed of computer chips doubles every 18 months. (Moore's law) The speed of software halves every 18 months. (Gates' law) ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - All You Can Eat
On Monday, February 17, 2014, Steve Doerr doerr.step...@gmail.com wrote: On 17/02/2014 18:04, Fernando Trebien wrote: I still think that opening_hours as a subtag would be an unnecessary specialization that would only be needed rarely. Can you provide an example in which you would not be able to represent that information in a different way? (such as using two or more geometric objects) It's quite common in the UK for a restaurant to operate as a normal, a la carte restaurant most of the week, and offer an all-you-can-eat buffet on, say, Sundays. I'm at a loss to understand why that would be represented as two separate geometric objects. Yeah, I've been trying to think of a use case scenario that makes sense for this, and I can't. It seems to be more in line with the expectation typical by cuisine. For instance, Genghis Grillhttp://www.genghisgrill.com/seems to be about the only chain around that *doesn't* consider Mongolian. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - All You Can Eat
Am 17/feb/2014 um 21:57 schrieb John Packer john.pack...@gmail.com: Summary of changes: 1. combined subtag :opening_hours with the main tag (inspired by the tags lit and fee) I suggest to use :service_times instead of opening hours here. cheers, Martin___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - All You Can Eat
I'm not sure I understood everything you said, John, specially about interval. Would you update your proposal and send it to us the way you think it should be? I suggested serving system because that's how Wikipedia describes it. I think I know English well, but since I'm not a native speaker, I'd rather suggest something said or written by a native. I also think that using accents in tags and tag values (except in real names) creates unnecessary complexity for non-Brazilian developers (and even for the Brazilians themselves). If rodizio is enough, then stick with simplicity. I still think that opening_hours as a subtag would be an unnecessary specialization that would only be needed rarely. Can you provide an example in which you would not be able to represent that information in a different way? (such as using two or more geometric objects) On Sat, Feb 15, 2014 at 11:11 PM, John Packer john.pack...@gmail.com wrote: I sincerely don't think it's length is a problem. There are longer accepted tags(like parking:condition:right:time_interval), and to shorten it would make it harder to remember and recognize (i.e. humans would be the ones paying the price). Tags like addr:* and ele are okay to abbreviate because they are used more frequently, but the others not so much. I do think this particular pricing scheme(all_you_can_eat) is useful. However I do agree that perhaps it would be better to include other pricing schemes. The problem is, I have no idea how they are called, or what they are. For example, what is this daily menu you speak of? Also, one place may have more than one pricing scheme, so I'm not sure the additional complexity is worth it. I still think all_you_can_eat=yes/no/only is a good idea. I understand there is some resistance to all_you_can_eat:opening_hours, but I do think it's genuinely useful, as long as it is only used when it is meant to be used(it is not a replacement of opening_hours). I gave one example of use of all_you_can_eat:opening_hours=* in my previous message. Another example is a restaurant that only offers all-you-can-eat options during lunch, and not during breakfast or dinner. But due to it's complexity(and the small number of cases), perhaps I should add a new value called interval to all_you_can_eat, which would mean this option is not available at all times. I believe this would be enough to kill all_you_can_eat:opening_hours. I actually was having the same idea of ftrebien: splitting all_you_can_eat:type into a new tag. Because to describe the way the food is served is one of my main purposes for creating this proposal. I was thinking of serving_style, but serving_system is also good. serving_system:food=buffet/rodízio/smörgåsbord/conveyor_belt/à_la_carte/korean_barbecue/table_d'hôte/... (each of the above values links to it's wikipedia article; you can see each style's peculiarities) It seems there are others, that's why it's important to leave this as an open set. The main reason I thought of splitting it into a new tag is because serving styles like buffet and conveyor belt does not necessarily means all-you-can-eat. 2014-02-15 22:13 GMT-02:00 Fernando Trebien fernando.treb...@gmail.com: +1 for pricing_scheme, +1 against the :opening_hours subtag What nounours77 proposes is simpler, easier to map, easier to understand and easier to consume in applications. I also suggest another tag: serving_system=buffet/smorgasbord/a_la_carte/table_d_hote (read up that Wikipedia link I've sent previously) In extreme cases (e.g. two services with completely different characteristics - different serving systems, pricing schemes and cuisines - offered at the same time of the day), if you're really picky, the best you can do is replicate the mapping of the same restaurant for each kind of service it offers, each instance with its own tags. (However, the usual recommendation is to choose the primary values for each tag.) I think it's absolutely ok to abbreviate all-you-can-eat by ayce, even though this is more common in tag names (such as hgv, psv, addr, hov and ele) than in tag values in OSM. Casual editors (using iD or Potlatch) would rarely use the tag directly (they can easily get a friendly named preset or option box, as they do for many tags today) and advanced users should read the wiki at least once anyway, even for tags that look deceptively obvious when ignoring the OSM context (e.g. highway=track, understood differently in many places mainly due to inexact translation). On Sat, Feb 15, 2014 at 6:40 PM, nounours77 kuessemondtaegl...@gmail.com wrote: Hi John, I do not understand why this is useful. The suggest tag is too long, to specific. I do not understand the need for a special all_you_can_eat:opening_hours The problem with cuisine=all_you_can_eat is that All you can eat is a pricing scheme, If you really think the information about the pricing scheme is relevant
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - All You Can Eat
On 17/02/2014 18:04, Fernando Trebien wrote: I still think that opening_hours as a subtag would be an unnecessary specialization that would only be needed rarely. Can you provide an example in which you would not be able to represent that information in a different way? (such as using two or more geometric objects) It's quite common in the UK for a restaurant to operate as a normal, a la carte restaurant most of the week, and offer an all-you-can-eat buffet on, say, Sundays. I'm at a loss to understand why that would be represented as two separate geometric objects. -- Steve ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - All You Can Eat
On Sat, Feb 15, 2014 at 7:57 AM, John Packer john.pack...@gmail.com wrote:
Actually, all_you_can_eat:type=* describes the *way* the food is served.
If the value is buffet, then people go to the food to get it; if the
value is rodízio, then waiters go around the restaurant offering samples
of food to each table;
I think type is the wrong word, and I hate subtags, so why not simply
serving={buffet|whatever...}
So now, what's the difference in /serving style/ between rodizio and dim
sum?
if the value is conveyor_belt, then people sit around a rotating table
which carries the food(probably always used for sushi); and so on.
Fine so far, but I cannot see a need for a separate
all_you_can_eat:opening_hours subtag when the normal opening_hours tag would
serve the purpose.
It should only be used for special cases. For example, if a cafe has an
all-you-can-eat happy hour every friday afternoon, then you might include
all_you_can_eat:opening_hours=Fr
14:00-18:00.
This all seems like too much microtagging..
- Serge
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - All You Can Eat
On 2/17/14 1:49 PM, Steve Doerr wrote: On 17/02/2014 18:04, Fernando Trebien wrote: I still think that opening_hours as a subtag would be an unnecessary specialization that would only be needed rarely. Can you provide an example in which you would not be able to represent that information in a different way? (such as using two or more geometric objects) It's quite common in the UK for a restaurant to operate as a normal, a la carte restaurant most of the week, and offer an all-you-can-eat buffet on, say, Sundays. I'm at a loss to understand why that would be represented as two separate geometric objects. we have those in the US too. there are a number of Indian restaurants here in the capital district of NY that offer table service for dinner and a buffet at lunch time. i suspect that this is very common. richard -- rwe...@averillpark.net Averill Park Networking - GIS IT Consulting OpenStreetMap - PostgreSQL - Linux Java - Web Applications - Search signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - All You Can Eat
So now, what's the difference in /serving style/ between rodizio and dim
sum?
I never went to a restaurant with *dim sum*, but reading about it on
wikipedia, I would say the differences are:
In a rodízio, the waiters go around offering food, and don't leave food on
a table unless requested by the clients upon offering. Also, in rodízio,
the food doesn't come in plates, so there is no system for counting the
expenses(I haven't heard of a rodízio that's not all-you-can-eat).
2014-02-17 15:52 GMT-03:00 Serge Wroclawski emac...@gmail.com:
On Sat, Feb 15, 2014 at 7:57 AM, John Packer john.pack...@gmail.comwrote:
Actually, all_you_can_eat:type=* describes the *way* the food is served.
If the value is buffet, then people go to the food to get it; if the
value is rodízio, then waiters go around the restaurant offering samples
of food to each table;
I think type is the wrong word, and I hate subtags, so why not simply
serving={buffet|whatever...}
So now, what's the difference in /serving style/ between rodizio and dim
sum?
if the value is conveyor_belt, then people sit around a rotating table
which carries the food(probably always used for sushi); and so on.
Fine so far, but I cannot see a need for a separate
all_you_can_eat:opening_hours subtag when the normal opening_hours tag would
serve the purpose.
It should only be used for special cases. For example, if a cafe has an
all-you-can-eat happy hour every friday afternoon, then you might include
all_you_can_eat:opening_hours=Fr
14:00-18:00.
This all seems like too much microtagging..
- Serge
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - All You Can Eat
Updated the proposal.
Summary of changes:
1. combined subtag :opening_hours with the main tag (inspired by the tags
lit and fee)
2. removed value only from main tag
3. added value special to main tag
4. renamed subtag :type to serving_system (should I move this to a new
proposal?)
2014-02-17 16:33 GMT-03:00 John Packer john.pack...@gmail.com:
So now, what's the difference in /serving style/ between rodizio and dim
sum?
I never went to a restaurant with *dim sum*, but reading about it on
wikipedia, I would say the differences are:
In a rodízio, the waiters go around offering food, and don't leave food on
a table unless requested by the clients upon offering. Also, in rodízio,
the food doesn't come in plates, so there is no system for counting the
expenses(I haven't heard of a rodízio that's not all-you-can-eat).
2014-02-17 15:52 GMT-03:00 Serge Wroclawski emac...@gmail.com:
On Sat, Feb 15, 2014 at 7:57 AM, John Packer john.pack...@gmail.comwrote:
Actually, all_you_can_eat:type=* describes the *way* the food is
served. If the value is buffet, then people go to the food to get it;
if the value is rodízio, then waiters go around the restaurant offering
samples of food to each table;
I think type is the wrong word, and I hate subtags, so why not simply
serving={buffet|whatever...}
So now, what's the difference in /serving style/ between rodizio and dim
sum?
if the value is conveyor_belt, then people sit around a rotating table
which carries the food(probably always used for sushi); and so on.
Fine so far, but I cannot see a need for a separate
all_you_can_eat:opening_hours subtag when the normal opening_hours tag
would
serve the purpose.
It should only be used for special cases. For example, if a cafe has an
all-you-can-eat happy hour every friday afternoon, then you might include
all_you_can_eat:opening_hours=Fr
14:00-18:00.
This all seems like too much microtagging..
- Serge
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - All You Can Eat
So now, what's the difference in /serving style/ between rodizio and dim
sum?
The former is a serving style while the latter is a cuisine. The latter
might also appear in restaurants that employ a serving style of rodizio.
Btw, this is the first time I've been exposed to that term either in print
or in reality but coincidentally, I ate lunch at such a place the the other
day here in Chiang Mai. We ate quite a bit of food there as they just
continued to bring it to the table
John, at this point, would you please you put all this into a summary, or a
full proposal, so we can see the entire package?
Cheers,
Dave
On Tue, Feb 18, 2014 at 3:57 AM, John Packer john.pack...@gmail.com wrote:
Updated the proposal.
Summary of changes:
1. combined subtag :opening_hours with the main tag (inspired by the tags
lit and fee)
2. removed value only from main tag
3. added value special to main tag
4. renamed subtag :type to serving_system (should I move this to a new
proposal?)
2014-02-17 16:33 GMT-03:00 John Packer john.pack...@gmail.com:
So now, what's the difference in /serving style/ between rodizio and dim
sum?
I never went to a restaurant with *dim sum*, but reading about it on
wikipedia, I would say the differences are:
In a rodízio, the waiters go around offering food, and don't leave food
on a table unless requested by the clients upon offering. Also, in rodízio,
the food doesn't come in plates, so there is no system for counting the
expenses(I haven't heard of a rodízio that's not all-you-can-eat).
2014-02-17 15:52 GMT-03:00 Serge Wroclawski emac...@gmail.com:
On Sat, Feb 15, 2014 at 7:57 AM, John Packer john.pack...@gmail.comwrote:
Actually, all_you_can_eat:type=* describes the *way* the food is
served. If the value is buffet, then people go to the food to get it;
if the value is rodízio, then waiters go around the restaurant
offering samples of food to each table;
I think type is the wrong word, and I hate subtags, so why not simply
serving={buffet|whatever...}
So now, what's the difference in /serving style/ between rodizio and dim
sum?
if the value is conveyor_belt, then people sit around a rotating table
which carries the food(probably always used for sushi); and so on.
Fine so far, but I cannot see a need for a separate
all_you_can_eat:opening_hours subtag when the normal opening_hours
tag would serve the purpose.
It should only be used for special cases. For example, if a cafe has an
all-you-can-eat happy hour every friday afternoon, then you might include
all_you_can_eat:opening_hours=Fr
14:00-18:00.
This all seems like too much microtagging..
- Serge
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - All You Can Eat
John, at this point, would you please you put all this into a summary, or
a full proposal, so we can see the entire package?
Do you mean this?:
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/All_you_can_eat
I think I should better document the serving_system values. I will do that
this week for sure.
2014-02-17 20:57 GMT-03:00 Dave Swarthout daveswarth...@gmail.com:
So now, what's the difference in /serving style/ between rodizio and dim
sum?
The former is a serving style while the latter is a cuisine. The latter
might also appear in restaurants that employ a serving style of rodizio.
Btw, this is the first time I've been exposed to that term either in print
or in reality but coincidentally, I ate lunch at such a place the the other
day here in Chiang Mai. We ate quite a bit of food there as they just
continued to bring it to the table
John, at this point, would you please you put all this into a summary, or
a full proposal, so we can see the entire package?
Cheers,
Dave
On Tue, Feb 18, 2014 at 3:57 AM, John Packer john.pack...@gmail.comwrote:
Updated the proposal.
Summary of changes:
1. combined subtag :opening_hours with the main tag (inspired by the
tags lit and fee)
2. removed value only from main tag
3. added value special to main tag
4. renamed subtag :type to serving_system (should I move this to a new
proposal?)
2014-02-17 16:33 GMT-03:00 John Packer john.pack...@gmail.com:
So now, what's the difference in /serving style/ between rodizio and dim
sum?
I never went to a restaurant with *dim sum*, but reading about it on
wikipedia, I would say the differences are:
In a rodízio, the waiters go around offering food, and don't leave food
on a table unless requested by the clients upon offering. Also, in rodízio,
the food doesn't come in plates, so there is no system for counting the
expenses(I haven't heard of a rodízio that's not all-you-can-eat).
2014-02-17 15:52 GMT-03:00 Serge Wroclawski emac...@gmail.com:
On Sat, Feb 15, 2014 at 7:57 AM, John Packer john.pack...@gmail.comwrote:
Actually, all_you_can_eat:type=* describes the *way* the food is
served. If the value is buffet, then people go to the food to get it;
if the value is rodízio, then waiters go around the restaurant
offering samples of food to each table;
I think type is the wrong word, and I hate subtags, so why not simply
serving={buffet|whatever...}
So now, what's the difference in /serving style/ between rodizio and
dim sum?
if the value is conveyor_belt, then people sit around a rotating
table which carries the food(probably always used for sushi); and so on.
Fine so far, but I cannot see a need for a separate
all_you_can_eat:opening_hours subtag when the normal opening_hours
tag would serve the purpose.
It should only be used for special cases. For example, if a cafe has
an all-you-can-eat happy hour every friday afternoon, then you might
include all_you_can_eat:opening_hours=Fr 14:00-18:00.
This all seems like too much microtagging..
- Serge
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - All You Can Eat
The problem with cuisine=all_you_can_eat is that All you can eat is a pricing scheme, not a cuisine. This would prevent tagging with the actual cuisine, such as cuisine=Chinese or cuisine=Mediterranean. +1 cuisine=* should be reserved for the actual type of food, not the pricing/serving scheme. Agreed. +1 On Sat, Feb 15, 2014 at 1:06 PM, Shawn K. Quinn skqu...@rushpost.comwrote: On Fri, Feb 14, 2014, at 09:03 PM, John F. Eldredge wrote: The problem with cuisine=all_you_can_eat is that All you can eat is a pricing scheme, not a cuisine. This would prevent tagging with the actual cuisine, such as cuisine=Chinese or cuisine=Mediterranean. +1 cuisine=* should be reserved for the actual type of food, not the pricing/serving scheme. -- Shawn K. Quinn skqu...@rushpost.com ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging -- Dave Swarthout Homer, Alaska Chiang Mai, Thailand Travel Blog at http://dswarthout.blogspot.com ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - All You Can Eat
It seems I was too brief in my initial email, so let me clarify. What I am proposing *is not* cuisine=all_you_can_eat. I am proposing three new tags: all_you_can_eat, all_you_can_eat:opening_hours and all_you_can_eat:type. I am in complete agreement cuisine=all_you can_eat and cuisine=buffet are not a suitable alternative for my proposal. 2014-02-15 8:19 GMT-02:00 Dave Swarthout daveswarth...@gmail.com: The problem with cuisine=all_you_can_eat is that All you can eat is a pricing scheme, not a cuisine. This would prevent tagging with the actual cuisine, such as cuisine=Chinese or cuisine=Mediterranean. +1 cuisine=* should be reserved for the actual type of food, not the pricing/serving scheme. Agreed. +1 On Sat, Feb 15, 2014 at 1:06 PM, Shawn K. Quinn skqu...@rushpost.comwrote: On Fri, Feb 14, 2014, at 09:03 PM, John F. Eldredge wrote: The problem with cuisine=all_you_can_eat is that All you can eat is a pricing scheme, not a cuisine. This would prevent tagging with the actual cuisine, such as cuisine=Chinese or cuisine=Mediterranean. +1 cuisine=* should be reserved for the actual type of food, not the pricing/serving scheme. -- Shawn K. Quinn skqu...@rushpost.com ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging -- Dave Swarthout Homer, Alaska Chiang Mai, Thailand Travel Blog at http://dswarthout.blogspot.com ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - All You Can Eat
Reading up on Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All-you-can-eat#All-you-can-eat_.28AYCE.29), this tag could also be shortened to ayce=yes/no. I agree all_you_can_eat=* is a little long, however I would like to keep it that way. Because if another mapper saw a place with ayce=*, he probably would not be able to tell it's meaning without consulting the wiki. At least I know I wouldn't. 2014-02-14 22:49 GMT-02:00 Fernando Trebien fernando.treb...@gmail.com: There are many all-you-can-eat restaurants in North America too, and just like here, the actual food type (cuisine) may vary considerably. Reading up on Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All-you-can-eat#All-you-can-eat_.28AYCE.29), this tag could also be shortened to ayce=yes/no. On Fri, Feb 14, 2014 at 10:33 PM, John Packer john.pack...@gmail.com wrote: What does taginfo suggest people are currently tagging places with an all you can eat option as? The closest I was able to find were 2 uses of cuisine=all_you_can_eat, 1 use of note=all_you_can_eat, 5 uses of buffet=yes and 68 uses of cuisine=buffet. The tag cuisine=buffet might have a considerable number of uses, however cuisine=* describes the type of food, not the way the food is served. Also my proposal is not specific to buffets, and allows other styles of all-you-can-eat syles(like rodízios). I'm not sure about the other countries, but I can say this tag will be pretty useful in Brazil, where things like rodízios and buffets are considerably common. Of course, I tried to include every case I could imagine. 2014-02-14 22:07 GMT-02:00 SomeoneElse li...@mail.atownsend.org.uk: John Packer wrote: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/All_you_can_eat What does taginfo suggest people are currently tagging places with an all you can eat option as? I'm not convinced that this necessarily needs a proposal... Cheers, Andy ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging -- Fernando Trebien +55 (51) 9962-5409 The speed of computer chips doubles every 18 months. (Moore's law) The speed of software halves every 18 months. (Gates' law) ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - All You Can Eat
Actually, all_you_can_eat:type=* describes the *way* the food is served. If the value is buffet, then people go to the food to get it; if the value is rodízio, then waiters go around the restaurant offering samples of food to each table; if the value is conveyor_belt, then people sit around a rotating table which carries the food(probably always used for sushi); and so on. Fine so far, but I cannot see a need for a separate all_you_can_eat:opening_hours subtag when the normal opening_hours tag would serve the purpose. It should only be used for special cases. For example, if a cafe has an all-you-can-eat happy hour every friday afternoon, then you might include all_you_can_eat:opening_hours=Fr 14:00-18:00. 2014-02-15 10:35 GMT-02:00 Dave Swarthout daveswarth...@gmail.com: So, what you're proposing are several tags that could be used in conjunction with amenity=restaurant, correct? For example: all_you_can_eat=yes all_you_can_eat:type=pizza Fine so far, but I cannot see a need for a separate all_you_can_eat:opening_hours subtag when the normal opening_hours tag would serve the purpose. Regards... On Sat, Feb 15, 2014 at 7:18 PM, John Packer john.pack...@gmail.comwrote: Reading up on Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All-you-can-eat#All-you-can-eat_.28AYCE.29 ), this tag could also be shortened to ayce=yes/no. I agree all_you_can_eat=* is a little long, however I would like to keep it that way. Because if another mapper saw a place with ayce=*, he probably would not be able to tell it's meaning without consulting the wiki. At least I know I wouldn't. 2014-02-14 22:49 GMT-02:00 Fernando Trebien fernando.treb...@gmail.com: There are many all-you-can-eat restaurants in North America too, and just like here, the actual food type (cuisine) may vary considerably. Reading up on Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All-you-can-eat#All-you-can-eat_.28AYCE.29 ), this tag could also be shortened to ayce=yes/no. On Fri, Feb 14, 2014 at 10:33 PM, John Packer john.pack...@gmail.com wrote: What does taginfo suggest people are currently tagging places with an all you can eat option as? The closest I was able to find were 2 uses of cuisine=all_you_can_eat, 1 use of note=all_you_can_eat, 5 uses of buffet=yes and 68 uses of cuisine=buffet. The tag cuisine=buffet might have a considerable number of uses, however cuisine=* describes the type of food, not the way the food is served. Also my proposal is not specific to buffets, and allows other styles of all-you-can-eat syles(like rodízios). I'm not sure about the other countries, but I can say this tag will be pretty useful in Brazil, where things like rodízios and buffets are considerably common. Of course, I tried to include every case I could imagine. 2014-02-14 22:07 GMT-02:00 SomeoneElse li...@mail.atownsend.org.uk: John Packer wrote: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/All_you_can_eat What does taginfo suggest people are currently tagging places with an all you can eat option as? I'm not convinced that this necessarily needs a proposal... Cheers, Andy ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging -- Fernando Trebien +55 (51) 9962-5409 The speed of computer chips doubles every 18 months. (Moore's law) The speed of software halves every 18 months. (Gates' law) ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging -- Dave Swarthout Homer, Alaska Chiang Mai, Thailand Travel Blog at http://dswarthout.blogspot.com ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - All You Can Eat
Hi John, I do not understand why this is useful. The suggest tag is too long, to specific. I do not understand the need for a special all_you_can_eat:opening_hours The problem with cuisine=all_you_can_eat is that All you can eat is a pricing scheme, If you really think the information about the pricing scheme is relevant (which I don't), why not make a general tag: Pricing_scheme=all_you_can_eat Pricing_scheme=daily_menu greetings, nounours77 ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - All You Can Eat
+1 for pricing_scheme, +1 against the :opening_hours subtag What nounours77 proposes is simpler, easier to map, easier to understand and easier to consume in applications. I also suggest another tag: serving_system=buffet/smorgasbord/a_la_carte/table_d_hote (read up that Wikipedia link I've sent previously) In extreme cases (e.g. two services with completely different characteristics - different serving systems, pricing schemes and cuisines - offered at the same time of the day), if you're really picky, the best you can do is replicate the mapping of the same restaurant for each kind of service it offers, each instance with its own tags. (However, the usual recommendation is to choose the primary values for each tag.) I think it's absolutely ok to abbreviate all-you-can-eat by ayce, even though this is more common in tag names (such as hgv, psv, addr, hov and ele) than in tag values in OSM. Casual editors (using iD or Potlatch) would rarely use the tag directly (they can easily get a friendly named preset or option box, as they do for many tags today) and advanced users should read the wiki at least once anyway, even for tags that look deceptively obvious when ignoring the OSM context (e.g. highway=track, understood differently in many places mainly due to inexact translation). On Sat, Feb 15, 2014 at 6:40 PM, nounours77 kuessemondtaegl...@gmail.com wrote: Hi John, I do not understand why this is useful. The suggest tag is too long, to specific. I do not understand the need for a special all_you_can_eat:opening_hours The problem with cuisine=all_you_can_eat is that All you can eat is a pricing scheme, If you really think the information about the pricing scheme is relevant (which I don't), why not make a general tag: Pricing_scheme=all_you_can_eat Pricing_scheme=daily_menu greetings, nounours77 ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging -- Fernando Trebien +55 (51) 9962-5409 The speed of computer chips doubles every 18 months. (Moore's law) The speed of software halves every 18 months. (Gates' law) ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - All You Can Eat
John, Thanks for the clarification. I reckon I can now agree with your intent and the wording of this proposal. As an aside though, I wonder how many mappers will take the trouble to tag such restaurants with the full compliment of tags you want to provide. There is a similar type of restaurant quite popular here in Thailand, referred to as Korean BBQ or moo gratah, that could make use of the new tags but it will be a while before I get around to retagging them. Of course, that's not your concern but mine. LOL On Sun, Feb 16, 2014 at 3:40 AM, nounours77 kuessemondtaegl...@gmail.comwrote: Hi John, I do not understand why this is useful. The suggest tag is too long, to specific. I do not understand the need for a special all_you_can_eat:opening_hours The problem with cuisine=all_you_can_eat is that All you can eat is a pricing scheme, If you really think the information about the pricing scheme is relevant (which I don't), why not make a general tag: Pricing_scheme=all_you_can_eat Pricing_scheme=daily_menu greetings, nounours77 ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging -- Dave Swarthout Homer, Alaska Chiang Mai, Thailand Travel Blog at http://dswarthout.blogspot.com ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - All You Can Eat
I sincerely don't think it's length is a problem. There are longer accepted tags(like parking:condition:right:time_interval), and to shorten it would make it harder to remember and recognize (i.e. humans would be the ones paying the price). Tags like addr:* and ele are okay to abbreviate because they are used more frequently, but the others not so much. I do think this particular pricing scheme(all_you_can_eat) is useful. However I do agree that perhaps it would be better to include other pricing schemes. The problem is, I have no idea how they are called, or what they are. For example, what is this daily menu you speak of? Also, one place may have more than one pricing scheme, so I'm not sure the additional complexity is worth it. I still think all_you_can_eat=yes/no/only is a good idea. I understand there is some resistance to all_you_can_eat:opening_hours, but I do think it's genuinely useful, as long as it is only used when it is meant to be used(it is not a replacement of opening_hours). I gave one example of use of all_you_can_eat:opening_hours=* in my previous message. Another example is a restaurant that only offers all-you-can-eat options during lunch, and not during breakfast or dinner. But due to it's complexity(and the small number of cases), perhaps I should add a new value called interval to all_you_can_eat, which would mean this option is not available at all times. I believe this would be enough to kill all_you_can_eat:opening_hours. I actually was having the same idea of ftrebien: splitting all_you_can_eat:type into a new tag. Because to describe the *way* the food is served is one of my main purposes for creating this proposal. I was thinking of serving_style, but serving_system is also good. serving_system:food=buffet http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buffet/rodíziohttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rod%C3%ADzio /smörgåsbord http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sm%C3%B6rg%C3%A5sbord/ conveyor_belt http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conveyor_belt_sushi/ à_la_carte https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%80_la_carte/korean_barbecuehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_BBQ /table_d'hôte https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Table_d%27h%C3%B4te/... (each of the above values links to it's wikipedia article; you can see each style's peculiarities) It seems there are others, that's why it's important to leave this as an open set. The main reason I thought of splitting it into a new tag is because serving styles like buffet and conveyor belt does not necessarily means all-you-can-eat. 2014-02-15 22:13 GMT-02:00 Fernando Trebien fernando.treb...@gmail.com: +1 for pricing_scheme, +1 against the :opening_hours subtag What nounours77 proposes is simpler, easier to map, easier to understand and easier to consume in applications. I also suggest another tag: serving_system=buffet/smorgasbord/a_la_carte/table_d_hote (read up that Wikipedia link I've sent previously) In extreme cases (e.g. two services with completely different characteristics - different serving systems, pricing schemes and cuisines - offered at the same time of the day), if you're really picky, the best you can do is replicate the mapping of the same restaurant for each kind of service it offers, each instance with its own tags. (However, the usual recommendation is to choose the primary values for each tag.) I think it's absolutely ok to abbreviate all-you-can-eat by ayce, even though this is more common in tag names (such as hgv, psv, addr, hov and ele) than in tag values in OSM. Casual editors (using iD or Potlatch) would rarely use the tag directly (they can easily get a friendly named preset or option box, as they do for many tags today) and advanced users should read the wiki at least once anyway, even for tags that look deceptively obvious when ignoring the OSM context (e.g. highway=track, understood differently in many places mainly due to inexact translation). On Sat, Feb 15, 2014 at 6:40 PM, nounours77 kuessemondtaegl...@gmail.com wrote: Hi John, I do not understand why this is useful. The suggest tag is too long, to specific. I do not understand the need for a special all_you_can_eat:opening_hours The problem with cuisine=all_you_can_eat is that All you can eat is a pricing scheme, If you really think the information about the pricing scheme is relevant (which I don't), why not make a general tag: Pricing_scheme=all_you_can_eat Pricing_scheme=daily_menu greetings, nounours77 ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging -- Fernando Trebien +55 (51) 9962-5409 The speed of computer chips doubles every 18 months. (Moore's law) The speed of software halves every 18 months. (Gates' law) ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - All You Can Eat
John Packer wrote: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/All_you_can_eat What does taginfo suggest people are currently tagging places with an all you can eat option as? I'm not convinced that this necessarily needs a proposal... Cheers, Andy ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - All You Can Eat
What does taginfo suggest people are currently tagging places with an all you can eat option as? The closest I was able to find were 2 uses of cuisine=all_you_can_eat, 1 use of note=all_you_can_eat, 5 uses of buffet=yes and 68 uses of cuisine=buffet. The tag cuisine=buffet might have a considerable number of uses, however cuisine=* describes the type of food, not *the way* the food is served. Also my proposal is not specific to buffets, and allows other styles of all-you-can-eat syles(like rodízios). I'm not sure about the other countries, but I can say this tag will be pretty useful in Brazil, where things like rodízios and buffets are considerably common. Of course, I tried to include every case I could imagine. 2014-02-14 22:07 GMT-02:00 SomeoneElse li...@mail.atownsend.org.uk: John Packer wrote: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/All_you_can_eat What does taginfo suggest people are currently tagging places with an all you can eat option as? I'm not convinced that this necessarily needs a proposal... Cheers, Andy ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - All You Can Eat
There are many all-you-can-eat restaurants in North America too, and just like here, the actual food type (cuisine) may vary considerably. Reading up on Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All-you-can-eat#All-you-can-eat_.28AYCE.29), this tag could also be shortened to ayce=yes/no. On Fri, Feb 14, 2014 at 10:33 PM, John Packer john.pack...@gmail.com wrote: What does taginfo suggest people are currently tagging places with an all you can eat option as? The closest I was able to find were 2 uses of cuisine=all_you_can_eat, 1 use of note=all_you_can_eat, 5 uses of buffet=yes and 68 uses of cuisine=buffet. The tag cuisine=buffet might have a considerable number of uses, however cuisine=* describes the type of food, not the way the food is served. Also my proposal is not specific to buffets, and allows other styles of all-you-can-eat syles(like rodízios). I'm not sure about the other countries, but I can say this tag will be pretty useful in Brazil, where things like rodízios and buffets are considerably common. Of course, I tried to include every case I could imagine. 2014-02-14 22:07 GMT-02:00 SomeoneElse li...@mail.atownsend.org.uk: John Packer wrote: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/All_you_can_eat What does taginfo suggest people are currently tagging places with an all you can eat option as? I'm not convinced that this necessarily needs a proposal... Cheers, Andy ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging -- Fernando Trebien +55 (51) 9962-5409 The speed of computer chips doubles every 18 months. (Moore's law) The speed of software halves every 18 months. (Gates' law) ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - All You Can Eat
On 02/14/2014 06:33 PM, John Packer wrote: What does taginfo suggest people are currently tagging places with an all you can eat option as? The closest I was able to find were 2 uses of cuisine=all_you_can_eat, 1 use of note=all_you_can_eat, 5 uses of buffet=yes and 68 uses of cuisine=buffet. The tag cuisine=buffet might have a considerable number of uses, however cuisine=* describes the type of food, not /the way/ the food is served. Also my proposal is not specific to buffets, and allows other styles of all-you-can-eat syles(like rodízios). I'm not sure about the other countries, but I can say this tag will be pretty useful in Brazil, where things like rodízios and buffets are considerably common. Of course, I tried to include every case I could imagine. 2014-02-14 22:07 GMT-02:00 SomeoneElse li...@mail.atownsend.org.uk mailto:li...@mail.atownsend.org.uk: John Packer wrote: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/All_you_can_eat What does taginfo suggest people are currently tagging places with an all you can eat option as? I'm not convinced that this necessarily needs a proposal... Cheers, Andy ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org mailto:Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging The problem with cuisine=all_you_can_eat is that All you can eat is a pricing scheme, not a cuisine. This would prevent tagging with the actual cuisine, such as cuisine=Chinese or cuisine=Mediterranean. -- John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - All You Can Eat
On Fri, Feb 14, 2014, at 09:03 PM, John F. Eldredge wrote: The problem with cuisine=all_you_can_eat is that All you can eat is a pricing scheme, not a cuisine. This would prevent tagging with the actual cuisine, such as cuisine=Chinese or cuisine=Mediterranean. +1 cuisine=* should be reserved for the actual type of food, not the pricing/serving scheme. -- Shawn K. Quinn skqu...@rushpost.com ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
