Re: [Tagging] Tagging of Country Names

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> Il giorno 27 ott 2016, alle ore 01:24, Dave F  
> ha scritto:
> 
> Not true. It makes sense wherever you are. Official:name allows a rendering 
> of official names of that country & individual 'names:*=' allows rendering 
> for specific languages.


+1 (it's actually "official_name") - and "name" allows for rendering of the 
default name - unless that's disputed and the "name" tag is empty (more 
commonly in multilingual areas you will find several languages together in the 
same default "name" tag).

official_name and name:lang tags are the least disputed, it's "name" where most 
of the problems are (in some regions): some people insist on putting only 
official names into the "name" tag, others insist in on the ground names like 
those written on signs, or those used by the locals. 

Admittedly, all this is more related to sub-country names (places, streets, 
etc) than to country names, maybe we should extend the scope of this discussion 
to place names in general?


cheers,
Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] Tagging of Country Names

[Aun Johnsen]

> On Nov 5, 2016, at 20:09, tagging-requ...@openstreetmap.org wrote:
> 
> The defacto-languages-tag would likely need some threshold to make sense,
> or any 2 strangers living temporary in an area would add another language
> to it and we'd end up with most of all existing languages spoken "de facto"
> anywhere on the planet. Adding just the majority languages doesn't seem
> right (respect for minorities) either, but we will have to decide what
> "significant" means in your sentence.
> 
> Cheers,
> Martin
As most definitions, I think the different local communities should define when 
a group is ‘significant’ enough to be entered into “de facto” languages. In my 
personal opinion, it should be the languages of population majorities, 
languages to minority groups that belong to the area (native populations). I 
think it will be wrong to enforce a fixed rule (languages spoken by more than 
30% of local population), because in many areas native groups that 
traditionally have belonged to the area might have been pushed below 5% of 
general population, but still recognised as a regional minority.

Aun Johnsen
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Re: [Tagging] Tagging of Country Names

[Aun Johnsen]

> On Nov 5, 2016, at 20:09, tagging-requ...@openstreetmap.org wrote:
> 
> This is kind of straying, but 'dependent nations' are a case that is not
> well handled at all. There are a number of cases (e.g. most Native American
> reservations) where all parties agree on the boundaries - at least of the
> current state of control, if not the 'rightful' borders, but most
> emphatically do not agree on the political status of the territory.
> 
> A typically complex case is Ahkwesáhsne. It is one of several recognized
> territories of the Kanien'kehá:ka Nation. It spans the border between the
> USA and Canada. The US portion is known as the St. Regis Mohawk
> Reservation. It has some of the attributes of a country - for instance, its
> citizens are free to travel within its territory without clearing US or
> Canadian customs and immigration. (Other USAians and Canadians do not have
> that privilege.) It has three governments: the Mohawk Council of Akwesasne
> (a representative democracy elected from the Canadian portion of the area),
> the Saint Regis Mohawk Tribe (a constitutional republic and the nominal
> government of the US portion), and the Mohawk Nation Council of Chiefs (the
> traditional and religious government of the Kanien'kehá:ka Nation), which
> many residents see as the legitimate government of the nation. The MNCC is
> not recognized by either the US or Canada, but in a 1948 election, the
> traditional chiefs chosen by the Akwesasnro:non 83-1 over an elected
> system. (The lack of a European-style constitutional framework impedes
> recognition.)
> 
> The Kanien'kehá:ka Nation, even among the First Peoples, is a dependent
> state. It is one of six members of the Haudenosaunee Confederacy, which is
> the nation with which most Akwesasnro:non would identify. Each of the other
> nations retains territories with some sort of 'dependent nation' status in
> both the US and Canada. In some cases they are combined - the Six Nations
> of the Grand River reserve in Canada has residents belonging to each of the
> Haudenosaunee nations, plus a group of Delaware (Lenape). This reserve has
> nine official languages: the five Haudenosaunee languages, plus Tuscarora,
> Munsee, English and French.
> 
> The Haudenosaunee Confederacy has even more of the attributes of a nation.
> It issues its own passports (and there have been times at which they have
> even been accepted by other states, such as when it sent a delegation to
> the League of Nations in 1923). It fields an Olympic lacrosse team, and is
> generally recognized as a state in international lacrosse competitions.
> 
> In most cases, all agree on the current state of the borders of all of
> these reserves. But they largely go unmapped, because there's no agreement
> on what to call them. Whatever it is, it doesn't fit into a strict
> admin_level hierarchy, because they span multiple admin_level=2 nations,
> What is fundamentally wrong about our model is the assumption that "every
> piece of land (except possibly Antarctica) is in one and only one nation."
> or that "a dependent nation is associated with one and only one parent
> state," or "the citizens of a nation share a common language."
> 
> We would do well to map agreed-on borders and tag things as best we can.
> Right now, we seem to be frozen on mapping First Nations boundaries.
A little TL;DR

I think tagging official and de facto languages will help raise the importance 
of these First Nation areas. The cases of First Nations is particularly 
complicated because they often are not recognised as independent nations and 
therefor not fit under the admin_level=2 tagging scheme. Some of these might 
fit into admin_level=3 or other sub-national divisions, while others not. At 
least a language tagging scheme will help highlight some of the issues around 
these areas.

Besides, all of Antarctica are claimed by different nations, though under the 
Antarctic Treat, such claims does not impose sovereignty, and the same plot of 
land might have claims from more than one country.

Aun Johnsen


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Re: [Tagging] Tagging of Country Names

[Kevin Kenny]

This is kind of straying, but 'dependent nations' are a case that is not
well handled at all. There are a number of cases (e.g. most Native American
reservations) where all parties agree on the boundaries - at least of the
current state of control, if not the 'rightful' borders, but most
emphatically do not agree on the political status of the territory.

A typically complex case is Ahkwesáhsne. It is one of several recognized
territories of the Kanien'kehá:ka Nation. It spans the border between the
USA and Canada. The US portion is known as the St. Regis Mohawk
Reservation. It has some of the attributes of a country - for instance, its
citizens are free to travel within its territory without clearing US or
Canadian customs and immigration. (Other USAians and Canadians do not have
that privilege.) It has three governments: the Mohawk Council of Akwesasne
(a representative democracy elected from the Canadian portion of the area),
the Saint Regis Mohawk Tribe (a constitutional republic and the nominal
government of the US portion), and the Mohawk Nation Council of Chiefs (the
traditional and religious government of the Kanien'kehá:ka Nation), which
many residents see as the legitimate government of the nation. The MNCC is
not recognized by either the US or Canada, but in a 1948 election, the
traditional chiefs chosen by the Akwesasnro:non 83-1 over an elected
system. (The lack of a European-style constitutional framework impedes
recognition.)

The Kanien'kehá:ka Nation, even among the First Peoples, is a dependent
state. It is one of six members of the Haudenosaunee Confederacy, which is
the nation with which most Akwesasnro:non would identify. Each of the other
nations retains territories with some sort of 'dependent nation' status in
both the US and Canada. In some cases they are combined - the Six Nations
of the Grand River reserve in Canada has residents belonging to each of the
Haudenosaunee nations, plus a group of Delaware (Lenape). This reserve has
nine official languages: the five Haudenosaunee languages, plus Tuscarora,
Munsee, English and French.

The Haudenosaunee Confederacy has even more of the attributes of a nation.
It issues its own passports (and there have been times at which they have
even been accepted by other states, such as when it sent a delegation to
the League of Nations in 1923). It fields an Olympic lacrosse team, and is
generally recognized as a state in international lacrosse competitions.

In most cases, all agree on the current state of the borders of all of
these reserves. But they largely go unmapped, because there's no agreement
on what to call them. Whatever it is, it doesn't fit into a strict
admin_level hierarchy, because they span multiple admin_level=2 nations,
What is fundamentally wrong about our model is the assumption that "every
piece of land (except possibly Antarctica) is in one and only one nation."
or that "a dependent nation is associated with one and only one parent
state," or "the citizens of a nation share a common language."

We would do well to map agreed-on borders and tag things as best we can.
Right now, we seem to be frozen on mapping First Nations boundaries.

On Sat, Nov 5, 2016 at 12:29 PM, Richard Welty 
wrote:

> On 11/5/16 10:58 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
> >
> > interesting case, because it is an example that "official languages"
> > can be set on sub-country level as well (many states have defined
> > English as their official language).
> > It could also be argued that English is the defacto official language
> > in the USA, even if there is no law that states this, because all
> > legislation and jurisdiction (?) takes place in English (I am not sure
> > about this, maybe Native American Reservations etc. have different
> > languages?).
> i'm sure the tribes probably regard their own languages as "official".
> given
> the peculiar status of the reservations (sovereign except for when congress
> decides they're not) i can't say i really know how that issue resolves.
> (it also
> makes admin boundaries nasty - are they separate nations or aren't they?)
>
> richard
>
> --
> rwe...@averillpark.net
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Re: [Tagging] Tagging of Country Names

[Warin]

On 06-Nov-16 03:49 AM, Aun Johnsen wrote:

On Nov 5, 2016, at 14:37, tagging-requ...@openstreetmap.org wrote:

Dave F wrote:

What's the difference between 'de facto' & official?

Martin beat me to it, but let me add links for reference, definition
and examples.

from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Official_language

An official language is a language that is given a special legal status [...] the term 
"official language" does not typically refer to the language used by a people 
or country, but by its government.


from https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/de_facto, please appreciate the
provided sentence for use case.

Adjective. de facto ‎(not comparable)
In fact or in practice; in actual use or existence, regardless of official or 
legal status.
(Often opposed to de jure.)
Although the United States currently has no official language, it is largely 
monolingual with English being the de facto national language.

The contrary of 'de facto' is 'de jure'
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/de_jure

Adjective. de jure ‎(not comparable)
By right, in accordance with the law, legally.

Another good reading is the wikipedia page, particularly the
introduction at the top
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_facto
and the part on national languages, quite relevant here.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_facto#National_languages





Wars have been fought over disagreements between "choices by local
community"

Indeed. And when it gets out of control, global community and DataWG
can intervene if necessary.

But that is not a reason, quite the contrary, to start another war
between local community and remote/global community. Especially when
there is no disagreement locally. Even more so when there was
disagreement locally and it is settled now.


-- altho

We could add (on any admin_level applicable) the tags official_languages (for 
official languages) and de_facto_languages or common_languages for the de facto 
languages in the area. This way, local communities that speak a different 
language than the official language will be identified, and this can be 
searchable in some way. I would suggest that ISO codes are used for the values 
of these tags.

Example:
Norway: official_languages=no;nn
Due to the different dialects (no/nn), some (many) municipalities have chosen 
one of these, admin_level=7 + official_language=no
Some municipalities have a significant Samii population speaking their Samii 
dialect, and a number of these have included this in official languages (not 
familiar with ISO code for the Samii dialects)

USA: common_languages=en, with certain areas having common_language=es, or 
other that might be actual. Some native reserves would have 
common_language={iso code of tribal language}

Any thoughts?



The ISO aus code may contain over 250 languages ... while many of these 
can be understood by their neighbours .. things do drift across the 
country. There maybe a need to have additions for these within OSM 
tagging in the future where more detail could be added to the map.
See https://www.ethnologue.com/statistics/family   I can find no code 
for these .. so at this time it may need to be stated as the actual 
language/tribe name where known e.g. name:aus:mindi=*
I don't see this as having any impact on the present country name 
discussion, at least at the present level.




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Re: [Tagging] Tagging of Country Names

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2016-11-05 17:49 GMT+01:00 Aun Johnsen :

> Some municipalities have a significant Samii population speaking their
> Samii dialect,



The defacto-languages-tag would likely need some threshold to make sense,
or any 2 strangers living temporary in an area would add another language
to it and we'd end up with most of all existing languages spoken "de facto"
anywhere on the planet. Adding just the majority languages doesn't seem
right (respect for minorities) either, but we will have to decide what
"significant" means in your sentence.

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Tagging of Country Names

[Aun Johnsen]

> On Nov 5, 2016, at 14:37, tagging-requ...@openstreetmap.org wrote:
> 
> Dave F wrote:
>> What's the difference between 'de facto' & official?
> 
> Martin beat me to it, but let me add links for reference, definition
> and examples.
> 
> from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Official_language
>> An official language is a language that is given a special legal status 
>> [...] the term "official language" does not typically refer to the language 
>> used by a people or country, but by its government.
> 
> 
> from https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/de_facto, please appreciate the
> provided sentence for use case.
>> Adjective. de facto ‎(not comparable)
>> In fact or in practice; in actual use or existence, regardless of official 
>> or legal status.
>> (Often opposed to de jure.)
>> Although the United States currently has no official language, it is largely 
>> monolingual with English being the de facto national language.
> 
> The contrary of 'de facto' is 'de jure'
> https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/de_jure
>> Adjective. de jure ‎(not comparable)
>> By right, in accordance with the law, legally.
> 
> Another good reading is the wikipedia page, particularly the
> introduction at the top
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_facto
> and the part on national languages, quite relevant here.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_facto#National_languages
> 
> 
> 
> 
>> Wars have been fought over disagreements between "choices by local
>> community"
> 
> Indeed. And when it gets out of control, global community and DataWG
> can intervene if necessary.
> 
> But that is not a reason, quite the contrary, to start another war
> between local community and remote/global community. Especially when
> there is no disagreement locally. Even more so when there was
> disagreement locally and it is settled now.
> 
> 
> -- altho
We could add (on any admin_level applicable) the tags official_languages (for 
official languages) and de_facto_languages or common_languages for the de facto 
languages in the area. This way, local communities that speak a different 
language than the official language will be identified, and this can be 
searchable in some way. I would suggest that ISO codes are used for the values 
of these tags.

Example:
Norway: official_languages=no;nn
Due to the different dialects (no/nn), some (many) municipalities have chosen 
one of these, admin_level=7 + official_language=no
Some municipalities have a significant Samii population speaking their Samii 
dialect, and a number of these have included this in official languages (not 
familiar with ISO code for the Samii dialects)

USA: common_languages=en, with certain areas having common_language=es, or 
other that might be actual. Some native reserves would have 
common_language={iso code of tribal language}

Any thoughts?

Aun Johnsen
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Re: [Tagging] Tagging of Country Names

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2016-11-05 17:29 GMT+01:00 Richard Welty :

> (it also
> makes admin boundaries nasty - are they separate nations or aren't they?)
>


they're likely not
https://twitter.com/ziyatong/status/794325844751765504
https://twitter.com/ziyatong/status/794280881418620928
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Re: [Tagging] Tagging of Country Names

[Richard Welty]

On 11/5/16 10:58 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
>
> interesting case, because it is an example that "official languages"
> can be set on sub-country level as well (many states have defined
> English as their official language).
> It could also be argued that English is the defacto official language
> in the USA, even if there is no law that states this, because all
> legislation and jurisdiction (?) takes place in English (I am not sure
> about this, maybe Native American Reservations etc. have different
> languages?).
i'm sure the tribes probably regard their own languages as "official". given
the peculiar status of the reservations (sovereign except for when congress
decides they're not) i can't say i really know how that issue resolves.
(it also
makes admin boundaries nasty - are they separate nations or aren't they?)

richard

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Re: [Tagging] Tagging of Country Names

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2016-11-05 14:14 GMT+01:00 althio :

> > Although the United States currently has no official language, it is
> largely monolingual with English being the de facto national language.



interesting case, because it is an example that "official languages" can be
set on sub-country level as well (many states have defined English as their
official language).
It could also be argued that English is the defacto official language in
the USA, even if there is no law that states this, because all legislation
and jurisdiction (?) takes place in English (I am not sure about this,
maybe Native American Reservations etc. have different languages?).

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Tagging of Country Names

[althio]

Dave F wrote:
> What's the difference between 'de facto' & official?

Martin beat me to it, but let me add links for reference, definition
and examples.

from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Official_language
> An official language is a language that is given a special legal status [...] 
> the term "official language" does not typically refer to the language used by 
> a people or country, but by its government.


from https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/de_facto, please appreciate the
provided sentence for use case.
> Adjective. de facto ‎(not comparable)
> In fact or in practice; in actual use or existence, regardless of official or 
> legal status.
> (Often opposed to de jure.)
> Although the United States currently has no official language, it is largely 
> monolingual with English being the de facto national language.

The contrary of 'de facto' is 'de jure'
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/de_jure
> Adjective. de jure ‎(not comparable)
> By right, in accordance with the law, legally.

Another good reading is the wikipedia page, particularly the
introduction at the top
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_facto
and the part on national languages, quite relevant here.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_facto#National_languages




> Wars have been fought over disagreements between "choices by local
> community"

Indeed. And when it gets out of control, global community and DataWG
can intervene if necessary.

But that is not a reason, quite the contrary, to start another war
between local community and remote/global community. Especially when
there is no disagreement locally. Even more so when there was
disagreement locally and it is settled now.


-- althio

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Re: [Tagging] Tagging of Country Names

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2016-11-05 12:46 GMT+01:00 Dave F :

> What's the difference between 'de facto' & official?



"official name" can have several meanings, but is generally referring to
text on dead tree. It can be found in laws/constitutions (typically in the
first or an early paragraph), treaties, can be released by government
agencies and offices (e.g. statistical agency, cadastre, ...). It can be
recognized (or the entity that has released the text can be recognized) by
international or national organizations, neighbouring (and other) countries
in multilateral or bilateral agreements and treaties, etc.
"de facto" languages are the languages spoken by the people living in a
certain area. They can be the same as the official languages or not.
"de facto local names" can be the names with which local people refer to
the places, and/or can be the names found on the ground. These do not
necessarily have to be officially recognized by any authority.
Additionally there are places where several competing authorities claim to
be authoritative.

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Tagging of Country Names

[Dave F]

On 04/11/2016 10:30, althio wrote:

Hi Sven and list,

Sven Geggus wrote:

What I consider valid would be the countires name in all of its official 
langages.

I don't consider it valid.
I prefer the on-the-ground rule, de facto languages, choice by local community.


What's the difference between 'de facto' & official?

Wars have been fought over disagreements between "choices by local 
community"


Dave F.

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Re: [Tagging] Tagging of Country Names

[althio]

Hi Sven and list,

Sven Geggus wrote:
> What I consider valid would be the countires name in all of its official 
> langages.

I don't consider it valid.
I prefer the on-the-ground rule, de facto languages, choice by local community.

> So I propose a correction of all country names to names into official 
> langages of
> the respective countries only and to remove all english names.
+
> I think the best would be to strictly stay with the countries official
> languages arguably also separating them by dashes.

I do not approve as a general rule.


> I think we should come up whith a common sense rule what name should usually
contain (hence this discussion) and thus the tagging can be changed by
mappers accordingly.

That is a good approach but unfortunately it may take time and it is
not certain the outcome will suit you (ie help you for your
rendering).
Anyway you still need to contact local mappers to let them know about
the 'new' rule.


> Frankly I don't care that much about the proper name tag itself, but I don't
> think that there is a single valid argument for tagging an english or french
> name in addition to the local one if this langage is not common a particular
> country.
+
> My intention is to remove english names in the generic "name" tag
> in countries where english is neither an official nor otherwise
> important langage to the country in question. I'm well aware of the
> political impact of naming in some places.

And that is not for you to choose the 'common or important languages',
but for the local mappers.


Andy Townsend wrote:
> Simon Poole wrote:
>>
>>   @andy
>> btw the whole is about making easier to express local preference, not
>> harder.
>
> ... which is great, and was exactly what I was worried about. However it
> wasn't the impression that I got from e.g. the comment "the french name has
> to go" upthread - that sounded like someone in "authority" in OSM would try
> and decide what name mappers in a country were allowed to apply to their own
> country, which doesn't sound like the way to go at all.

+1... Sven, I am worried about this part "english/french name has to go".
Was the "english/french name" added by westerners? or chosen by locals
(possibly with extensive local community discussions)?


> The only argument I could think of here ist tagging for the
> renderer.  As I already said, such stuff is making it very difficult to
> render a proper localized map.

A proper localized map is possible with name: tags.
You are going for something more complicated, name: +
name:.


> Andy Townsend wrote:
>> As has already been said this _ought_ to be a job for wikidata.
>
> Thus one would need an additional external database to render a proper map!
> I don't think that this is the way to go in such a simple case.

As an alternative, if you don't like wikidata and external database, I
read in the 'Algerian thread' that we could add a tag for official or
preferred languages for rendering.
https://forum.openstreetmap.org/viewtopic.php?pid=572165#p572165

To paraphrase, same idea from Simon Poole:
> The real simple solution would be to provide a tag with a list of the
> countries official languages and then allow the renderer to choose from
> them in the cases when you want a non-translated name value (and as said
> leave the name tag empty).
(name tag empty or unused)

And I read here you seem to agree.
> The longer I think about this, the more I come to the conclusion, that
> having an official langage tag as Simon suggested might be the ways to go.
> This way producers of maps can avoid using "name" at all.

-- althio

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Re: [Tagging] Tagging of Country Names

[althio]

Hi Dave,

> Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
>>
>> I'd prefer avoiding the word "official", in favor of eg default or
>> on-the-ground etc.

+1

Dave F wrote:
> Isn't that what we have atm & where much of the ambiguity stems from?
>
> 'official' names appears the correct way to proceed

-1

>
> Ideally, every country should have every language name tag, then users can
> pick & choose at will. Unsure how practical that is though.

+1, we will get there eventually, or use sensible fallback for
non-available languages

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Re: [Tagging] Tagging of Country Names

[Andy Townsend]

On 28/10/2016 10:51, Sven Geggus wrote:
There might be another option. Given a hstore database or wikidata 
column it

would be very easy to build a query_wikidata psql function which will query
wikidata like this:

select query_wikidata(tags->'wikidata') from planet_osm_point where ...;

This would be only a few lines of pl/pgsql wrapper code using pgcurl:
https://github.com/Ormod/pgcurl


The problem that was identified the last time that this was discussed 
was that we weren't able to find a scaleable way of querying wikidata:


https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk/2015-May/072993.html

Obviously that's much less of an issue for countries (228 values) than 
for "all names in OSM" (53,258,173 values)


Cheers,

Andy


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Re: [Tagging] Tagging of Country Names

[Sven Geggus]

Andy Townsend  wrote:

> Straying from the point slightly, but what would be really, really nice
> would be a worked example of a way of obtaining wikidata information
> as part of map data processing

There might be another option. Given a hstore database or wikidata column it
would be very easy to build a query_wikidata psql function which will query
wikidata like this:

select query_wikidata(tags->'wikidata') from planet_osm_point where ...;

This would be only a few lines of pl/pgsql wrapper code using pgcurl:
https://github.com/Ormod/pgcurl

Regards

Sven

-- 
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  (Linus Torvalds)

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Re: [Tagging] Tagging of Country Names

[Andy Townsend]

Straying from the point slightly, but what would be really, really nice would 
be a worked example of a way of obtaining wikidata information‎ as part of map 
data processing (e.g. to fit in with osm2pgsql's lua style file processing or 
osmandmapcreator, or whatever else you're using to both import and update osm 
data).

Cheers,
Andy


  Original Message  
From: Andy Mabbett
Sent: Thursday, 27 October 2016 12:13
To: Tag discussion, strategy and related tools
Reply To: Tag discussion, strategy and related tools
Subject: Re: [Tagging] Tagging of Country Names

On 26 October 2016 at 23:23, David Bannon <dban...@internode.on.net> wrote:

> As has been suggested, a database of names in every conceivable language
> would be a ideal, then a renderer can deliver a map readable in an
> appropriate language. That does sound like wikidata 

Indeed.

As a matter of interest, how many countries are currently tagged with
their Wikidata ID?

If not many, would people like a bot to add such tags?

-- 
Andy Mabbett
@pigsonthewing
http://pigsonthewing.org.uk

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Re: [Tagging] Tagging of Country Names

[Andy Mabbett]

On 26 October 2016 at 23:23, David Bannon  wrote:

> As has been suggested, a database of names in every conceivable language
> would be a ideal, then a renderer can deliver a map readable in an
> appropriate language. That does sound like wikidata 

Indeed.

As a matter of interest, how many countries are currently tagged with
their Wikidata ID?

If not many, would people like a bot to add such tags?

-- 
Andy Mabbett
@pigsonthewing
http://pigsonthewing.org.uk

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Re: [Tagging] Tagging of Country Names

[Andy Townsend]

On 26/10/2016 19:50, Simon Poole wrote:

  @andy
btw the whole is about making easier to express local preference, not
harder.


... which is great, and was exactly what I was worried about. However it 
wasn't the impression that I got from e.g. the comment "the french name 
has to go" upthread - that sounded like someone in "authority" in OSM 
would try and decide what name mappers in a country were allowed to 
apply to their own country, which doesn't sound like the way to go at all.


Cheers,

Andy


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Re: [Tagging] Tagging of Country Names

[Sven Geggus]

David Bannon  wrote:

> As a native English speaker, I often turn to OSM to help me understand 
> some of the global issues around at present. But even now, many of the 
> place names are rendered in local language, quite unreadable to me.

This is true for any westerner. Have a look at the talk I gave at FOSS4G
concerning this topic:
https://github.com/giggls/mapnik-german-l10n/wiki

In the meantime I also made a version with english as a prefered langage for
internal use at my workplace:
http://tile.iosb.fraunhofer.de/#map=3/16.88/39.5

Regards

Sven

-- 
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Re: [Tagging] Tagging of Country Names

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> Il giorno 26 ott 2016, alle ore 22:32, Simon Poole  ha 
> scritto:
> 
> But  nobody was discussing removing minority and similar status
> language name:xx variants and further they don't normally get included
> in the "name" tag as is. Difficult to see why you believe the


a national minority might well be a local majority, and names don't get 
attached to countries alone, the same issues occur with settlements and 
generally with toponyms, that's why I mentioned these cases.

cheers,
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Re: [Tagging] Tagging of Country Names

[Dave F]

On 26/10/2016 22:36, Warin wrote:

On 26-Oct-16 07:32 PM, Sven Geggus wrote:


I hope we agree, that changing the name tag in a way that it appears 
more

readable for westerners on the standard map is not a good idea.


I agree, but it works both ways ... where a countries primary language 
is English and another language is added to the name= tag.


Of course. Sven never suggested otherwise.

DaveF

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Re: [Tagging] Tagging of Country Names

[Dave F]

On 26/10/2016 20:56, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:


if we go with "official" we will always be on the side of the 
powerful, and we will completely ignore other aspects. Take the Basque 
area as example, it is not long ago, that only French and Spanish 
(according to the side you are looking at) were officially recognized, 
we would have completely ignored the native Basque population with 
this rule.


Basque area isn't a country & the region can be rendered with it's own 
regional name using name:*=.




Also, if you write "official language", would this include recognized 
minority languages? Should we have a different tag for this?
See here for example about the only one "official language" in France 
and other relevant languages: 
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Language_policy_in_France


See my comment above

Cheers
DaveF
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Re: [Tagging] Tagging of Country Names

[Dave F]

On 26/10/2016 23:23, David Bannon wrote:
Sven, your approach makes sense assuming people only look at maps of 
their own country. 


Not true. It makes sense wherever you are. Official:name allows a 
rendering of official names of that country & individual 'names:*=' 
allows rendering for specific languages.


Yes, I agree its respectful to people living in a non english speaking 
country but really does not address a much larger problem.


As a native English speaker, I often turn to OSM to help me understand 
some of the global issues around at present. But even now, many of the 
place names are rendered in local language, quite unreadable to me. 


I'm unsure why you believe one sample rendering which doesn't suit your 
requirements negates what Sven is proposing.


DaveF

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Re: [Tagging] Tagging of Country Names

[Kevin Kenny]

For names of countries, I'd suggest that they should be in whatever the
local mappers to a country consider the predominant language to be. For
users in other locales, presumably we have active enough English-speaking,
German-speaking, and so on communities that name:en, name:de, etc. would be
populated quickly - and any edit to 'name=*' that removes an English name
should add 'name:en=*' with the name.

That's enough for a renderer of a world map to render country names
localized for its intended users.

It does nothing for the names of smaller places. There, either we could
rely on Wikidata (slow!) or we could agree to start populating name:XX=
when convenient, so that 北京市 could be 'Bắc Kinh', 'Běijīng',  'Beijing'.
'Pékin', 'Peking', 'Pequín' or '베이징 시' as needed.

I think that's the most neutral possible answer: 'keep whatever the local
mappers use as the country name, and provide translations if someone takes
enough interest to enter them.' That's really what applies to any
geographic name.

One hopes that Thai local mappers will be judicious enough to enter either
บางกอก or
กรุงเทพฯ, and not burden the world with กรุงเทพมหานคร อมรรัตนโกสินทร์
มหินทรายุธยา มหาดิลกภพ นพรัตนราชธานีบูรีรมย์ อุดมราชนิเวศน์มหาสถาน
อมรพิมานอวตารสถิต สักกะทัตติยวิษณุกรรมประสิทธิ์, even though that's the
official name of the city we Westerners call 'Bangkok'.

On Wed, Oct 26, 2016 at 6:23 PM, David Bannon 
wrote:

> Sven, your approach makes sense assuming people only look at maps of their
> own country. Yes, I agree its respectful to people living in a non english
> speaking country but really does not address a much larger problem.
>
> As a native English speaker, I often turn to OSM to help me understand
> some of the global issues around at present. But even now, many of the
> place names are rendered in local language, quite unreadable to me. As has
> been suggested, a database of names in every conceivable language would be
> a ideal, then a renderer can deliver a map readable in an appropriate
> language. That does sound like wikidata 
>
> So, I suggest its possible your solution improves a small aspect of a
> larger problem but just perhaps also makes that larger problem even worse ?
>
> David
>
>
> On 26/10/16 02:02, Sven Geggus wrote:
>
>> Hello,
>>
>> in our localized German map style we try to render Country names in German
>> with local name in parenthesis.
>>
>> This works fine for a lot of countries. An example would be Thailand:
>> Thailand (ประเทศไทย)
>>
>> or (more readable for westerners) France:
>> Frankreich (France)
>>
>> Unfortunately there are some countries where this will not work:
>>
>> Ägypten (Egypt مصر)
>>
>> So this is where the tagging discussion starts.
>>
>> I consider this a bad example of tagging for the renderer.
>>
>> English is not an official language of Egypt thus the string "Egypt" is
>> simply invalid in the countries name tag.
>>
>> What I consider valid would be the countires name in all of its official
>> langages.
>>
>> Thus the right one would be:
>> Ägypten (مصر)
>>
>> So I propose a correction of all country names to names into official
>> langages of
>> the respective countries only and to remove all english names.
>>
>> Any objectives?
>>
>> Sven
>>
>>
>
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Re: [Tagging] Tagging of Country Names

[David Bannon]

Sven, your approach makes sense assuming people only look at maps of 
their own country. Yes, I agree its respectful to people living in a non 
english speaking country but really does not address a much larger problem.


As a native English speaker, I often turn to OSM to help me understand 
some of the global issues around at present. But even now, many of the 
place names are rendered in local language, quite unreadable to me. As 
has been suggested, a database of names in every conceivable language 
would be a ideal, then a renderer can deliver a map readable in an 
appropriate language. That does sound like wikidata 


So, I suggest its possible your solution improves a small aspect of a 
larger problem but just perhaps also makes that larger problem even worse ?


David


On 26/10/16 02:02, Sven Geggus wrote:

Hello,

in our localized German map style we try to render Country names in German
with local name in parenthesis.

This works fine for a lot of countries. An example would be Thailand:
Thailand (ประเทศไทย)

or (more readable for westerners) France:
Frankreich (France)

Unfortunately there are some countries where this will not work:

Ägypten (Egypt مصر)

So this is where the tagging discussion starts.

I consider this a bad example of tagging for the renderer.

English is not an official language of Egypt thus the string "Egypt" is
simply invalid in the countries name tag.

What I consider valid would be the countires name in all of its official
langages.

Thus the right one would be:
Ägypten (مصر)

So I propose a correction of all country names to names into official langages 
of
the respective countries only and to remove all english names.

Any objectives?

Sven




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Re: [Tagging] Tagging of Country Names

[Warin]

On 27-Oct-16 06:56 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:



sent from a phone

Il giorno 26 ott 2016, alle ore 16:52, Dave F 
> ha 
scritto:



Isn't that what we have atm & where much of the ambiguity stems from?



I don't think so, at least not where Sven wants to change it.




'official' names appears the correct way to proceed & like others 
have suggested, ignore the 'name=' tag.



if we go with "official" we will always be on the side of the 
powerful, and we will completely ignore other aspects. Take the Basque 
area as example, it is not long ago, that only French and Spanish 
(according to the side you are looking at) were officially recognized, 
we would have completely ignored the native Basque population with 
this rule.


Also, if you write "official language", would this include recognized 
minority languages? Should we have a different tag for this?
See here for example about the only one "official language" in France 
and other relevant languages: 
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Language_policy_in_France





Rather than ignore the most frequently used name tag I would try to 
refine it ... at the moment the osmwiki says "the primary tag used for 
naming an element" and then later on "the common default name. (Note: 
For disputed areas, please use the name as displayed on e.g. street 
signs for the name tag. Put all alternatives into either localized name 
tags (e.g. name:tr/name:el) or the variants (e.g. 
loc_name/old_name/alt_name). Thank you.) "




Perhaps "The local, commonly used, name of a feature."

-
There are already many variations of the name tag .. including one 
'official'.

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:name

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Re: [Tagging] Tagging of Country Names

[Warin]

On 26-Oct-16 07:32 PM, Sven Geggus wrote:

Colin Smale  wrote:


Are you talking about the "default map", or the underlying data (i.e.
the contents of name and name:xx tags)?

Both. As I consider adding an english name in standard name tag as "tagging
for the renderer" it is _not_ off-topic here.

I hope we agree, that changing the name tag in a way that it appears more
readable for westerners on the standard map is not a good idea.


I agree, but it works both ways ... where a countries primary language is 
English and another language is added to the name= tag.



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Re: [Tagging] Tagging of Country Names

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> Il giorno 26 ott 2016, alle ore 16:52, Dave F  
> ha scritto:
> 
> Isn't that what we have atm & where much of the ambiguity stems from?


I don't think so, at least not where Sven wants to change it.


> 
> 'official' names appears the correct way to proceed & like others have 
> suggested, ignore the 'name=' tag.


if we go with "official" we will always be on the side of the powerful, and we 
will completely ignore other aspects. Take the Basque area as example, it is 
not long ago, that only French and Spanish (according to the side you are 
looking at) were officially recognized, we would have completely ignored the 
native Basque population with this rule.

Also, if you write "official language", would this include recognized minority 
languages? Should we have a different tag for this?
See here for example about the only one "official language" in France and other 
relevant languages: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Language_policy_in_France


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Re: [Tagging] Tagging of Country Names

[Simon Poole]

Am 26.10.2016 um 21:56 schrieb Martin Koppenhoefer:

.. a lot of things that are likely right 

But  nobody was discussing removing minority and similar status
language name:xx variants and further they don't normally get included
in the "name" tag as is. Difficult to see why you believe the
suggestions on the table would make the support of such languages worse
(if at all it would seem to be better).

Simon




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Re: [Tagging] Tagging of Country Names

[Simon Poole]

preferred?

Which would nicely cover the case of India Andy was referring to. @andy
btw the whole is about making easier to express local preference, not
harder.


Am 26.10.2016 um 14:34 schrieb Martin Koppenhoefer:
>
> sent from a phone
>
>> Il giorno 26 ott 2016, alle ore 10:38, Sven Geggus 
>>  ha scritto:
>>
>> having an official langage tag as Simon suggested might be the ways to go.
>
> I'd prefer avoiding the word "official", in favor of eg default or 
> on-the-ground etc.
>
> Cheers,
> Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] Tagging of Country Names

[Michael Tsang]

On Tuesday 25 October 2016 17:02:05 Sven Geggus wrote:
> Hello,
> 
> in our localized German map style we try to render Country names in German
> with local name in parenthesis.
> 
> This works fine for a lot of countries. An example would be Thailand:
> Thailand (ประเทศไทย)
> 
> or (more readable for westerners) France:
> Frankreich (France)
> 
> Unfortunately there are some countries where this will not work:
> 
> Ägypten (Egypt مصر)
> 
> So this is where the tagging discussion starts.
> 
> I consider this a bad example of tagging for the renderer.
> 
> English is not an official language of Egypt thus the string "Egypt" is
> simply invalid in the countries name tag.
> 
> What I consider valid would be the countires name in all of its official
> langages.
> 
> Thus the right one would be:
> Ägypten (مصر)
> 
> So I propose a correction of all country names to names into official
> langages of the respective countries only and to remove all english names.

I believe that country names, as with all place names, should be tagged with 
the primary / official / most commonly used language on the ground, according 
to 
the customs of that particular country. If English is not officially / commonly 
used in that country, it should not appear on the main tag. For a multilingual 
community, the name tag should list the multilingual names, in the standard 
order of that country.

For example, the name tag for China should only be "中国" , which is Chinese, 
the only official language used country-wise. However, for Hong Kong and Macau, 
as both Chinese and English/Portuguese have equal official status, the name tag 
should be tagged bilingual as "香港 Hong Kong" and "澳門 Macau" respectively. 

Michael
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Re: [Tagging] Tagging of Country Names

[Dave F]

On 26/10/2016 15:12, Sven Geggus wrote:

Why do you think that I would want to change the current english tag there?
As I already wrote in my other Mail:

All I want to get rid of is english names in countries where english is not
an official or otherwise important langage and the suspicion comes to mind,
that the english name has been added to the name for the sole purpose of
making it readable in the standard style.


I concur English names should definitely be removed if not official. 
It's erroneous tagging (especially as they're not non delimited).


It also appears sensible to list official names within a separate tag & 
leave the name tag empty or remove it completely.


DaveF



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Re: [Tagging] Tagging of Country Names

[Dave F]

On 26/10/2016 13:34, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:

I'd prefer avoiding the word "official", in favor of eg default or 
on-the-ground etc.


Isn't that what we have atm & where much of the ambiguity stems from?

'official' names appears the correct way to proceed & like others have 
suggested, ignore the 'name=' tag.


Unsure if this United Nations PDF is the most up to date:
http://tinyurl.com/gutb64r

Note the difference between 'National' & 'UN' official.

Ideally, every country should have every language name tag, then users 
can pick & choose at will. Unsure how practical that is though.


DaveF






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Re: [Tagging] Tagging of Country Names

[Sven Geggus]

Andy Townsend  wrote:

> OK - another googly* for you - what do you think should be in the "name" 
> tag for India**?

Why do you think that I would want to change the current english tag there?
As I already wrote in my other Mail:

All I want to get rid of is english names in countries where english is not
an official or otherwise important langage and the suspicion comes to mind,
that the english name has been added to the name for the sole purpose of
making it readable in the standard style.

Sven

-- 
"Whenever there is a conflict between human rights and property
rights, human rights must prevail." (Abraham Lincoln)

/me is giggls@ircnet, http://sven.gegg.us/ on the Web

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Re: [Tagging] Tagging of Country Names

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> Il giorno 26 ott 2016, alle ore 10:38, Sven Geggus 
>  ha scritto:
> 
> having an official langage tag as Simon suggested might be the ways to go.


I'd prefer avoiding the word "official", in favor of eg default or 
on-the-ground etc.

Cheers,
Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] Tagging of Country Names

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> Il giorno 26 ott 2016, alle ore 02:44, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> ha 
> scritto:
> 
> Would any transcription be placed into name:la=* (la is the language code for 
> Latin)?


name:la is in use for latin names, it should not be misused for transcriptions 


cheers,
Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] Tagging of Country Names

[Andy Townsend]

On 26/10/2016 10:04, Sven Geggus wrote:

My intention is to remove english names in the generic "name" tag
in countries where english is neither an official nor otherwise
important langage to the country in question.


OK - another googly* for you - what do you think should be in the "name" 
tag for India**?


As I understand it in OSM the Indian OSM community has made a conscious 
decision to use English there (see 
https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/304716#map=4/21.90/82.79 ), 
though someone from that community could no doubt provide more detail.


Best Regards,
Andy

* http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/cricket/skills/4173812.stm

** https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Languages_with_official_status_in_India



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Re: [Tagging] Tagging of Country Names

[Sven Geggus]

Hello,

looks like some people did not understand what I intend to do.
My intention is to remove english names in the generic "name" tag
in countries where english is neither an official nor otherwise
important langage to the country in question. I'm well aware of the
political impact of naming in some places.

Regards

Sven

-- 
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 die anderen sind einfach von sich aus unlogisch."
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/me ist giggls@ircnet, http://sven.gegg.us/ im WWW

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Re: [Tagging] Tagging of Country Names

[Sven Geggus]

Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Would any transcription be placed into name:la=* (la is the language code
> for Latin)?

The place for transcriptions is name:rm_XX which XX beeing somethiong like
jp or kr.

All I want to achieve is to get more consistency inte the generic name tag.
I have not been talking about name:* at all.

However following this discussion I came to the conclusion that it would
probably be a good idea to invent an official_language tag as "name" seems to
be a moving target by its very nature.

Regards

Sven

-- 
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Re: [Tagging] Tagging of Country Names

[Sven Geggus]

Kevin Kenny  wrote:

> Some problems don't have good solutions.

The longer I think about this, the more I come to the conclusion, that
having an official langage tag as Simon suggested might be the ways to go.

This way producers of maps can avoid using "name" at all.

Sven

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Re: [Tagging] Tagging of Country Names

[Sven Geggus]

Colin Smale  wrote:

> Are you talking about the "default map", or the underlying data (i.e.
> the contents of name and name:xx tags)?

Both. As I consider adding an english name in standard name tag as "tagging
for the renderer" it is _not_ off-topic here. 

I hope we agree, that changing the name tag in a way that it appears more
readable for westerners on the standard map is not a good idea.

Sven

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Re: [Tagging] Tagging of Country Names

[Warin]

On 26-Oct-16 08:52 AM, Michael Reichert wrote:

Hi Warin,

Am 25.10.2016 um 23:32 schrieb Warin:

? You are not proposing removing all the English names from the data base?!

No, he doesn't.

He just proposes to remove the English name from the name=* tag in
countries where English is neither an official language nor a common
(but non-official) language.


Good.


  name:en=*, int_name=* etc. will be left
untouched.


How they are used (rendered) is your issue.

Sometimes the developers of rendering styles discover errors in our
data. That's what happened with Sven who develops a German branch of OSM
Carto which does a phonetic transcription of non-Latin scripts into Latin.





PS I agree with Sven's proposal as long as he acts carefully.


As I now understand his idea, I too would encourage the action.

Would any transcription be placed into name:la=* (la is the language code for 
Latin)?

There will be some 'particularities' as always. In Australia there is at least 
one instance of name:aus where the local indigenous language (non english, but 
latin script) has been used. Here the official language is English so the name= 
should be used for rendering .. possibly with the name:aus rendered in 
brackets, except where they are equal .. then it might be rendered with the 
name= tag and the name:en rendered in brackets ... {Included for complexity 
that may not have been considered}.


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Re: [Tagging] Tagging of Country Names

[Colin Smale]

Are you talking about the "default map", or the underlying data (i.e.
the contents of name and name:xx tags)? This is the wrong place to
discuss rendering of the default map, and I thought this thread was
about the contents of the name tag. It is probably not a good idea to
discuss rendering choices here as this could look like advocacy for
"tagging for the renderer" - adjusting the data to produce the desired
result.

//colin 

On 2016-10-25 18:09, Sven Geggus wrote:

> Stefano  wrote:
> 
>> If you'd want the name only in official languageS the problem will arise in
>> countries with more than one (and equally) official language.
> 
> Not really, I do not consider rendering something like this a bad idea:
> 
> Algerien (ⵍⵣⵣⴰⵢⴻⵔ الجزائر)
> 
> Kurrently we have "Algerien (Algérie ⵍⵣⵣⴰⵢⴻⵔ الجزائر)" where I would think
> that we should definitely remove the french name.
> 
> I think the best would be to strictly stay with the countries official
> languages arguably also separating them by dashes.
> 
> Regards
> 
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Re: [Tagging] Tagging of Country Names

[Michael Reichert]

Hi Warin,

Am 25.10.2016 um 23:32 schrieb Warin:
> ? You are not proposing removing all the English names from the data base?!

No, he doesn't.

He just proposes to remove the English name from the name=* tag in
countries where English is neither an official language nor a common
(but non-official) language. name:en=*, int_name=* etc. will be left
untouched.

> How they are used (rendered) is your issue.

Sometimes the developers of rendering styles discover errors in our
data. That's what happened with Sven who develops a German branch of OSM
Carto which does a phonetic transcription of non-Latin scripts into Latin.

Best regards

Michael


PS I agree with Sven's proposal as long as he acts carefully.


-- 
Per E-Mail kommuniziere ich bevorzugt GPG-verschlüsselt. (Mailinglisten
ausgenommen)
I prefer GPG encryption of emails. (does not apply on mailing lists)



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Re: [Tagging] Tagging of Country Names

[Colin Smale]

On 2016-10-25 23:32, Warin wrote:

> ? You are not proposing removing all the English names from the data base?!
> 
> The entered tags should be left in the data base.

If they are considered to be in agreement with the consensus view as to
their contents. 

> How they are used (rendered) is your issue.

The renderer is entitled to expect the data to comply with the consensus
view, while accepting that there will inevitably be non-compliant data
in the database - which should be capable of being brought into
compliance. 

Simply saying it's the renderers problem sounds like disclaiming all
responsibility for the quality of the data. We should take collective
responsibility for the quality of the data, and not pretend it is
somebody else's problem. 

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Re: [Tagging] Tagging of Country Names

[Warin]

On 26-Oct-16 02:02 AM, Sven Geggus wrote:


So I propose a correction of all country names to names into official langages 
of
the respective countries only and to remove all english names.

Any objectives?




? You are not proposing removing all the English names from the data base?!

The entered tags should be left in the data base.

How they are used (rendered) is your issue.




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Re: [Tagging] Tagging of Country Names

[Simon Poole]

On 25.10.2016 21:47, Kevin Kenny wrote:
> It gets even more complicated in places of disputed sovereignty, where
> the choice of name makes a political statement and speech is not as free
> as it usually is in the West. In the PRC, it would actually be unlawful
> to put the name 中華民國 (or 中华民国) on a map, while in Taiwan, it
> might be lawful to put 臺灣, but would be regarded as politically
> suspicious. 中华台北 is an ambiguous fiction that satisfies nobody, and
> WTO's 臺澎金馬個別關稅領域 is no better.

That however is a different can of worms, this discussion is mainly
about what countries call the territories over which they have actual
control, not about what some countries would like to call countries that
they have no control over (and there is a fair number of such conflicts).

Naturally even the current topic can be politically/culturally sensitive
(which is one of the reasons we end up with these multiple names names),
but much less so than territorial claims.

> 
> Some problems don't have good solutions.
> 

IMHO trying to make everybody happy wrt such claims is outside the scope
of OSM and unlikely to be possible in any case.

Simon

> 
> On Tue, Oct 25, 2016 at 3:25 PM, Simon Poole  > wrote:
> 
> 
> As an inhabitant of one the countries mentioned with multiple official
> languages may I quickly chip in: our previous solution was to simply
> leave the name tag empty given that stuffing the 4 official language
> variants in to the name tags was rather unwieldy and even so none of
> them are actually the countries real official name (see
> http://official-name-abbreviations-meaning.all-about-switzerland.info/
> )
> .
> 
> This proved impossible to maintain due to fiddling mappers living in a
> neighbour country to the north, so to get a bit of peace and quiet (we
> would have been quite happy with using English on the standard
> rendering), we opted for the current ungainly solution.
> 
> The real simple solution would be to provide a tag with a list of the
> countries official languages and then allow the renderer to choose from
> them in the cases when you want a non-translated name value (and as said
> leave the name tag empty).
> 
> Simon
> 
> 
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Re: [Tagging] Tagging of Country Names

[Kevin Kenny]

It gets even more complicated in places of disputed sovereignty, where the
choice of name makes a political statement and speech is not as free as it
usually is in the West. In the PRC, it would actually be unlawful to put
the name 中華民國 (or 中华民国) on a map, while in Taiwan, it might be lawful to
put 臺灣, but would be regarded as politically suspicious. 中华台北 is an
ambiguous fiction that satisfies nobody, and WTO's 臺澎金馬個別關稅領域 is no better.

Some problems don't have good solutions.


On Tue, Oct 25, 2016 at 3:25 PM, Simon Poole  wrote:

>
> As an inhabitant of one the countries mentioned with multiple official
> languages may I quickly chip in: our previous solution was to simply
> leave the name tag empty given that stuffing the 4 official language
> variants in to the name tags was rather unwieldy and even so none of
> them are actually the countries real official name (see
> http://official-name-abbreviations-meaning.all-about-switzerland.info/) .
>
> This proved impossible to maintain due to fiddling mappers living in a
> neighbour country to the north, so to get a bit of peace and quiet (we
> would have been quite happy with using English on the standard
> rendering), we opted for the current ungainly solution.
>
> The real simple solution would be to provide a tag with a list of the
> countries official languages and then allow the renderer to choose from
> them in the cases when you want a non-translated name value (and as said
> leave the name tag empty).
>
> Simon
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] Tagging of Country Names

[Colin Smale]

Imagine for a moment an OSM world without the simple name=* tag. All
names have to be qualified with their language, so even in the UK we
would use name:en=*. This would make several things clear: 

* every name is in some language or other - useful for pronunciation,
prefix/suffix recognition, etc etc 

* OSM is not (primarily) about the map, but the data. Which elements are
visualised on a particular map is up to the rendering, with choices to
suit the particular audience 

* It might actually not be possible to make a world map that suits all
of the people, all of the time 

It is always easier to combine things, than to separate them. As an
example, in Egypt it should be pretty easy ito concatenate the English
and Arabic names, but not so easy to parse a combined string into the
constituents. The only raison d'etre for name=* is for the renderer 

Maybe we should consistently use int_name or name:int=* for an agreed
(single) international name, which could be used on an international
map. I guess this would usually be the English name (but it doesn't need
to be). 

By the way, I notice that no-one has changed the English name of the
Czech Republic into Czechia, as recently decreed by the Czech
government... I am also surprised that (according to the OSM data) that
country is also known as Czech Republic (sic) in languages bi, chy, ee,
hif, ik, pap, sco, and ty. I don't recognise the language codes but I
bet they don't all mean "English". But this is a different can of
worms

--colin 

On 2016-10-25 19:55, Andy Townsend wrote:

> ‎> I think we should come up with a common sense rule what name should usually
> contain‎
> 
> I suspect that it might take some time before consensus is reached on that 
> one :)
> 
> There have been a number of discussions about "what should be in a name" 
> worldwide, and getting people within one country to agree is hard enough, 
> especially in countries without official languages and within countries where 
> "official" isn't the same as "most used". There's an ongoing discussion on 
> talk-it about Sardinia, and the Algerian forum discussion from some time ago 
> highlights a number of the problems with "combined names" (especially 
> containing multiple character sets and both rtl and ltr script).
> 
> (re the proposed rendering) I  had thought of doing something ‎similar 
> myself, but via lua at database load/update time - find the first name:xy 
> that matches a substring of "name" and use that as "a local name in a local 
> language". Never got around to actually doing it for real though.
> 
> As has already been said this _ought_ to be a job for wikidata. Normally 
> scalability of wikidata queries would be an issue (if any can think of a 
> workaround to that it'd be great to share) but the number of countries is 
> limited enough to make that approach workable here perhaps?
> 
> Cheers,
> Andy
> 
> Original Message  
> From: Sven Geggus
> Sent: Tuesday, 25 October 2016 19:00
> Reply To: Tag discussion, strategy and related tools
> Subject: Re: [Tagging] Tagging of Country Names
> 
> Chris Hill <o...@raggedred.net> wrote:
> 
>> How would you propose making this change?
> 
> I think we should come up whith a common sense rule what name should usually
> contain (hence this discussion) and thus the tagging can be changed by
> mappers accordingly.
> 
> Currently the state is inconsistent (see Egypt vs. Thailand example).
> 
> I could also live with an "english-name native-name" rule because I could
> remove the english name automatically for my map. All I want to get rid of
> is the current inconsistency.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Sven
> 
> -- 
> "Das Einzige wovor wir Angst haben müssen ist die Angst selbst"
> (Franklin D. Roosevelt)
> 
> /me is giggls@ircnet, http://sven.gegg.us/ on the Web
> 
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Re: [Tagging] Tagging of Country Names

[Simon Poole]

As an inhabitant of one the countries mentioned with multiple official
languages may I quickly chip in: our previous solution was to simply
leave the name tag empty given that stuffing the 4 official language
variants in to the name tags was rather unwieldy and even so none of
them are actually the countries real official name (see
http://official-name-abbreviations-meaning.all-about-switzerland.info/) .

This proved impossible to maintain due to fiddling mappers living in a
neighbour country to the north, so to get a bit of peace and quiet (we
would have been quite happy with using English on the standard
rendering), we opted for the current ungainly solution.

The real simple solution would be to provide a tag with a list of the
countries official languages and then allow the renderer to choose from
them in the cases when you want a non-translated name value (and as said
leave the name tag empty).

Simon



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Re: [Tagging] Tagging of Country Names

[Richard Welty]

On 10/25/16 2:44 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
>
> sent from a phone
>
>> Il giorno 25 ott 2016, alle ore 17:02, Sven Geggus 
>>  ha scritto:
>>
>> So I propose a correction of all country names to names into official 
>> langages of
>> the respective countries only and to remove all english names.
>
> how are you going to determine the official language, and are you aware that 
> there are areas where on the ground a different language than the "official" 
> one is used?
consider Belgium, with two distinctly different language groupings, both
representing a sizeable portion of the population. and consider Switzerland
where a number of different languages are spoken in different parts of the
country. and this is just western europe...

"the language spoken in a country" in more than one case does not have one
correct answer.

richard

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Re: [Tagging] Tagging of Country Names

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> Il giorno 25 ott 2016, alle ore 17:02, Sven Geggus 
>  ha scritto:
> 
> So I propose a correction of all country names to names into official 
> langages of
> the respective countries only and to remove all english names.


btw, this is not limited to country names, the same issues occur on sub-country 
level as well, see e.g. Südtirol for a similar problem: 
https://www.openstreetmap.de/karte.html (sorry, permalink seems broken on 
mobile).

IMHO we would have to generally change how we tag names, because we don't have 
a solution for multilingual regions, just workarounds ;-)

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Re: [Tagging] Tagging of Country Names

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> Il giorno 25 ott 2016, alle ore 17:02, Sven Geggus 
>  ha scritto:
> 
> So I propose a correction of all country names to names into official 
> langages of
> the respective countries only and to remove all english names.


how are you going to determine the official language, and are you aware that 
there are areas where on the ground a different language than the "official" 
one is used?

I agree that your egypt example needs fixing, but the solution globally is not 
always obvious.

cheers,
Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] Tagging of Country Names

[Andy Townsend]

So what do _you_ think should be in the "name" tag for Algeria then?

If you think there's a simple answer, I'd suggest that you haven't quite got to 
the nub of the problem yet...


  Original Message  
From: Sven Geggus
Sent: Tuesday, 25 October 2016 20:14
To: tagging@openstreetmap.org
Reply To: Tag discussion, strategy and related tools
Subject: Re: [Tagging] Tagging of Country Names

Andy Townsend <ajt1...@gmail.com> wrote:

> As has already been said this _ought_ to be a job for wikidata.

Thus one would need an additional external database to render a proper map!
I don't think that this is the way to go in such a simple case.

Frankly I don't care that much about the proper name tag itself, but I don't
think that there is a single valid argument for tagging an english or french
name in addition to the local one if this langage is not common a particular
country.

The only argument I could think of here ist tagging for the
renderer. As I already said, such stuff is making it very difficult to
render a proper localized map.

Regards

Sven

-- 
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Isn't there enough suffering in the world?"
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Re: [Tagging] Tagging of Country Names

[Sven Geggus]

Andy Townsend  wrote:

> As has already been said this _ought_ to be a job for wikidata.

Thus one would need an additional external database to render a proper map!
I don't think that this is the way to go in such a simple case.

Frankly I don't care that much about the proper name tag itself, but I don't
think that there is a single valid argument for tagging an english or french
name in addition to the local one if this langage is not common a particular
country.

The only argument I could think of here ist tagging for the
renderer.  As I already said, such stuff is making it very difficult to
render a proper localized map.

Regards

Sven

-- 
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Re: [Tagging] Tagging of Country Names

[Andy Townsend]

‎> I think we should come up with a common sense rule what name should usually
contain‎

I suspect that it might take some time before consensus is reached on that one 
:)

There have been a number of discussions about "what should be in a name" 
worldwide, and getting people within one country to agree is hard enough, 
especially in countries without official languages and within countries where 
"official" isn't the same as "most used". There's an ongoing discussion on 
talk-it about Sardinia, and the Algerian forum discussion from some time ago 
highlights a number of the problems with "combined names" (especially 
containing multiple character sets and both rtl and ltr script).

(re the proposed rendering) I  had thought of doing something ‎similar myself, 
but via lua at database load/update time - find the first name:xy that matches 
a substring of "name" and use that as "a local name in a local language". Never 
got around to actually doing it for real though.

As has already been said this _ought_ to be a job for wikidata. Normally 
scalability of wikidata queries would be an issue (if any can think of a 
workaround to that it'd be great to share) but the number of countries is 
limited enough to make that approach workable here perhaps?

Cheers,
Andy


  Original Message  
From: Sven Geggus
Sent: Tuesday, 25 October 2016 19:00
Reply To: Tag discussion, strategy and related tools
Subject: Re: [Tagging] Tagging of Country Names

Chris Hill <o...@raggedred.net> wrote:

> How would you propose making this change?

I think we should come up whith a common sense rule what name should usually
contain (hence this discussion) and thus the tagging can be changed by
mappers accordingly.

Currently the state is inconsistent (see Egypt vs. Thailand example).

I could also live with an "english-name native-name" rule because I could
remove the english name automatically for my map. All I want to get rid of
is the current inconsistency.

Regards

Sven

-- 
"Das Einzige wovor wir Angst haben müssen ist die Angst selbst"
(Franklin D. Roosevelt)

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Re: [Tagging] Tagging of Country Names

[Sven Geggus]

Chris Hill  wrote:

> How would you propose making this change?

I think we should come up whith a common sense rule what name should usually
contain (hence this discussion) and thus the tagging can be changed by
mappers accordingly.

Currently the state is inconsistent (see Egypt vs. Thailand example).

I could also live with an "english-name native-name" rule because I could
remove the english name automatically for my map.  All I want to get rid of
is the current inconsistency.

Regards

Sven

-- 
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(Franklin D. Roosevelt)

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Re: [Tagging] Tagging of Country Names

[Sven Geggus]

Stefano  wrote:

> If you'd want the name only in official languageS the problem will arise in
> countries with more than one (and equally) official language.

Not really, I do not consider rendering something like this a bad idea:

Algerien (ⵍⵣⵣⴰⵢⴻⵔ الجزائر)

Kurrently we have "Algerien (Algérie ⵍⵣⵣⴰⵢⴻⵔ الجزائر)" where I would think
that we should definitely remove the french name.

I think the best would be to strictly stay with the countries official
languages arguably also separating them by dashes.

Regards

Sven

-- 
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Re: [Tagging] Tagging of Country Names

[Stefano]

2016-10-25 17:02 GMT+02:00 Sven Geggus :

>
> So I propose a correction of all country names to names into official
> langages of
> the respective countries only and to remove all english names.
>

If you'd want the name only in official languageS the problem will arise in
countries with more than one (and equally) official language.

>
> Any objectives?
>

Is there on all the countries the Wikidata id?

>
> Sven
>

Regards,
Stefano


>
> --
> Um Kontrolle Ihres Kontos wiederzugewinnen, klicken Sie bitte auf das
> Verbindungsgebrüll. (aus einer Ebay fishing Mail)
>
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Re: [Tagging] Tagging of Country Names

[Chris Hill]

How would you propose making this change?
Cheers, Chris (chillly)

On 25 October 2016 16:02:05 BST, Sven Geggus  
wrote:
>Hello,
>
>in our localized German map style we try to render Country names in
>German
>with local name in parenthesis.
>
>This works fine for a lot of countries. An example would be Thailand:
>Thailand (ประเทศไทย)
>
>or (more readable for westerners) France:
>Frankreich (France)
>
>Unfortunately there are some countries where this will not work:
>
>Ägypten (Egypt مصر)
>
>So this is where the tagging discussion starts.
>
>I consider this a bad example of tagging for the renderer.
>
>English is not an official language of Egypt thus the string "Egypt" is
>simply invalid in the countries name tag.
>
>What I consider valid would be the countires name in all of its
>official
>langages.
>
>Thus the right one would be:
>Ägypten (مصر)
>
>So I propose a correction of all country names to names into official
>langages of
>the respective countries only and to remove all english names.
>
>Any objectives?
>
>Sven
>
>-- 
>Um Kontrolle Ihres Kontos wiederzugewinnen, klicken Sie bitte auf das
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>
>/me is giggls@ircnet, http://sven.gegg.us/ on the Web
>
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