date:20080825

2008/8/25 Rory McCann [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
 as for placing the node to one side of the way in order to get the icon to
 be placed correctly, this sounds a lot like 'tagging for the renderer'

 Part of it depends. In Ireland, bus stops are frequently marked with a sign
 on the path. This post is not on the road, it is on the path. I place the
 node where that post is on the ground (usually using Yahoo Imagery and local
 knowledge). For example here's a bus stop near where I used to live:
 http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=53.357268lon=-6.423311zoom=18layers=B00FTF
 It's basically on the corner of a few roads.

i see what you're getting at, but the sign shouldn't be taken to
indicate anything. after all, the sign can't be exactly where the bus
stops, or the bus wouldn't be able to stop there (and it would get in
the way of traffic). i think this is true for most signs - the sign is
generally *near*, but not exactly at the location of the item it's
marking


 Remember there are relations for bus routes, they include the bus stops and
 the ways that make up the route. They can be used to figure out where a bus
 will stop.

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Re: [OSM-talk] Left and Right?

2008/8/25 Kevin Ryan [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
 or, consider from the pedestrian's point-of-view:
 it is assumed for all roads except motorways and where explicitly
 stated, that there is foot=yes access. in which case, the
 footpath/sidewalk/pavement is therefore part of the way which represents
 the road; we don't draw  a separate way off to one side, running
 parallel. the bus stop must be on the footpath for the pedestrian to be
 able to walk up to it, so again it must be part of the way

 Is this the case?  I've never seen this written in anywhere before?  If this
 is the case, how do you specify that there isn't a footpath running in
 parallel with one or both sides of a road?  How this then rendered to
 indicate which side of a road had a path and which one doesn't.

 I've asked this before in the wiki, but didn't get any answers. I think this
 information for footpaths is very important for people with limited
 mobility.

no, it's not written anywhere - i'm just using logic to extrapolate
what we do at present to encompass how to deal with this situation

there is a tag proposal discussion to explicitly determine whether a
road has pavements on either side, both sides or neither, but i think
it's stalled at some point. feel free to resurrect if you wish, i
think it's something that needs sorting

i'm sure the implied 'foot=yes', on all roads except motorways, is
somehwere in the wikithough?

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Re: [OSM-talk] service roads as driveways

2008/8/25 Lester Caine [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
 I think that is the key here. The illogical use of 'unclassified' in the UK is
 what causes the problem. So 'service' was added as a designation for a small
 road that would probably be 'unclassified' in the rest of the world.

 We then add 'public' or 'private' relating to ACCESS, and I see little point
 adding yet another main 'designation' such as 'drive' unless there is a real
 difference in how these types of road need rendering.

 wiki is running incredibly slow at the moment, so I can't check some of the
 other fine detail, micro-mapping of private property such as drives, parking
 areas and property within an individuals boundaries should be 'ring-fenced'
 with tagging that allows this low level detail to be excluded as required?
 4 minutes to get http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/Highway page ...
 I'm almost tempted to suggest highway=private rather than highway=service,
 access=private, service=driveway. So I can see the reasoning behind tidying up
 some of this micro-mapping detail ... The 'service' attributes seem to
 contradict the actual definition of highway=service above

 And when did highway=services get added SURELY that is amenity=services ? If I
 am looking amenities I would NEVER look in the highway list!

agreed on all this

unfortunately, i think this is a side-effect of people adding to a tag
one bit at a time, with none considering the thing as a whole.

maybe we need someone or a coordinated group of someones to look at
this in detail and see how to fix them all together, now we've been
using the highway tag for some years, and most use cases have been
considered? it's going to happen sometime, all it needs is someone
brave to dive in...

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[OSM-talk] cycle/footpath

while we're on the subject of convoluted tagging schemes for highways,
i've always been intrigued by the following combinations, which seem
to mean the same thing, but are clearly different:

highway=footway
cycle=yes

highway=cycleway
foot=yes

is there any difference between these two?

is this another argument for splitting the physical attributes from
other attributes to stop this kind of redundancy?

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Re: [OSM-talk] Searching for recently added names not working

2008-08-25 Thread David Earl

On 25/08/2008 00:27, Brett Henderson wrote:
 On Thu, Aug 21, 2008 at 8:19 PM, David Earl [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Sorry about this. The rules changed under my feet!
 
 Are you sure?  I didn't remember changing anything in this space so 
 checked svn.  My original osmosis code import to svn in September 2007 
 had the xml tag named as create.  The same code is used for creating 
 the xml within the bz2 and gz files so there shouldn't be any difference 
 between the two.  The difference between the bz2 and gz processes was in 
 the extract automation, not the database and xml code.
 
 I wouldn't bring it up except that it sounds like you might be missing 
 more data than just that which changed in the past couple of weeks.

Hmm, I think you are right. I can't see when this did start happening 
though.

I believe it was correct when the incremental updates to namefinder 
started in March (20 March to be precise; I believe the daily diffs 
contained 'add' at that point - is that your understanding too?).

I can find unchanged entries from late May that are in the index; OTOH 
the problem may be more subtle in that if the last element before 
'create' was 'modify', then the 'create's may be interpreted as modify, 
but if it was delete, then as delete, so sometimes entries might have 
been, added sometimes not.

Could it have been the change you mailed about on June 24? Or were the 
bzip files unchanged at that point, and only the new gz ones (which I 
only switched to on August 8) affected?

Am I imagining it, or was there a point at which 'create' replaced 'add' 
in the daily files?

I suspect I am going to have to reload from a full planet, in which case 
I won't do anything urgently as it will be useful to add a few more 
categories of object to the index and make a few changes to the 
proximity algorithm before I do.

David


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Re: [OSM-talk] cycle/footpath

Hi,

 highway=footway
 cycle=yes

 highway=cycleway
 foot=yes

 is there any difference between these two?

in germany, the first one implies that cyclists are limited to a myx speed of 
ca. 6km/h, so yes for us it makes a difference.

If it's not legally a footway or cycleway, I thus tend to use

highway=path
foot=designated
bicycle=yes

highway=path
bicycle=designated
foot=yes

to express if the way is more a footway or a cycleway.

Cheers,

ce


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Re: [OSM-talk] cycle/footpath

2008-08-25 Thread Lennard

Robin Paulson wrote:

 while we're on the subject of convoluted tagging schemes for highways,
 i've always been intrigued by the following combinations, which seem
 to mean the same thing, but are clearly different:
 
 highway=footway
 cycle=yes
 
 highway=cycleway
 foot=yes
 
 is there any difference between these two?

Yes, in the cases where I've used this way of tagging. The difference is 
in the signs used. The highway=footway;cycle=yes is mainly a footway and 
marked as such, but with a sub-sign saying 'cycling allowed'. This 
implies that the main users are pedestrians, and cyclists should take 
all due consideration to them, like not claiming the road. Cyclists are 
'guests'.

The other is actually the other way around. It's marked with a cyclists 
sign. You are allowed to walk on it (since there might not be a suitable 
  footpath or sidewalk/pavement nearby), but have to realise there are 
(fast) cyclists around. Often, the foot=yes is implicit, because 
pedestrians can go pretty much anywhere, like on cycleways if no 
pavement is present or even the main road if neither is present (at 
least in The Netherlands and Belgium). I'm using an explicit foot=yes if 
  the cycleway is not paired with a nearby pavement/footway, so the 
routers will know they can use it for pedestrians.

Now, what I'm curious about, and what came up in recent discussions on 
talk-be and #osm-nl, is how far the implicit foot=yes goes in both OSM 
in general, and current routers specifically.

Not every country has the same implicit access rules. For instance, in 
Belgium where a do-not-enter-for-drivers sign (round, white with red 
border) is used, with a sub-sign 'residents only', it is implicitly 
assumed that foot=yes (since pedestrians are not drivers, the sign does 
not apply to them), but also bicycle=yes;horse=yes, even though they're 
legally both drivers, and don't have to live on that street.

Currently, I would need to tag every such destination-only road in 
Belgium with: access=destination;foot=yes;bicycle=yes;horse=yes. Would 
it be possible in the future to mark such implicit nation-wide access=* 
rules for various types of road? So within Belgium, I could get away 
with the much easier access=destination and be done with it, unless 
there are explicit *=no access classes) ?

-- 
Lennard

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[OSM-talk] highway = path in mapnik/osmarander

2008-08-25 Thread wer-ist-roger

Hej everyone,

there are several ways that I know of that need to be highway = path but 
neither mapnik nor osmarander render pathes. I think that path is a real 
important tag, is there a plan or a chance that mapnik and/or osmarander are 
going to render it?

wer-ist-roger

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Re: [OSM-talk] mkcntr2.pl: perl hackers wanted to fix contours....

2008-08-25 Thread Gora Mohanty

On Fri, 22 Aug 2008 14:53:23 -0400 (EDT)
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
[...]
 I'd love to make the changes myself, but perl is about as foreign a
 language as could be. My suggestion is that a couple of extra parameters
 are add to mark 'elevation_medium' and 'elevation_major' contours.
 
 For example:
 mkcntr2.pl extract.txt 10 50 100  contours.osm
 would produce minor contours at 10m separations, medium at multiples of
 50m and major at multiples of 100m.
[...]

OK, had a look at the requirements, and the Perl script,
so this looks like it ought to be easy to do. I have made
an example extract.txt file using the directions in
applications/utils/import/srtm2osm. As I am new to OSM, and
the tagging mechanism used, can you send me off-list a short
example of what contours.osm should look like?

Regards,
Gora

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Re: [OSM-talk] Left and Right?

2008/8/25 Kevin Ryan [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
 I would assume that 'foot=yes' on all roads implies that you are allowed to
 walk on the road - not that there is a footpath in parallel with it.

yes, that's probably what it means (is that in the wiki?), but until
there's an explicit difference made in the osm documentation, i'm also
extrapolating it's use for the future to mean, 'there's a footpath on
both sides of the road'. but this is getting away from the point i was
trying to make, regarding bus stops and canal mooring points

at some point in the future, when we do consider footpaths on the side
of the roads, it will likely be done by assuming the presence of
footpaths, unless there's a 'footpath_right=no' (or whatever) tag,
implying that the way marking the centre-line of the road actually
marks the route of the footpath as well, so it follows that the
highway=bus_stop node should be a part of the way marking the road,
not offset to one side


 2008/8/25 Robin Paulson [EMAIL PROTECTED]

 2008/8/25 Kevin Ryan [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
  or, consider from the pedestrian's point-of-view:
  it is assumed for all roads except motorways and where explicitly
  stated, that there is foot=yes access. in which case, the
  footpath/sidewalk/pavement is therefore part of the way which represents
  the road; we don't draw  a separate way off to one side, running
  parallel. the bus stop must be on the footpath for the pedestrian to be
  able to walk up to it, so again it must be part of the way
 
  Is this the case?  I've never seen this written in anywhere before?  If
  this
  is the case, how do you specify that there isn't a footpath running in
  parallel with one or both sides of a road?  How this then rendered to
  indicate which side of a road had a path and which one doesn't.
 
  I've asked this before in the wiki, but didn't get any answers. I think
  this
  information for footpaths is very important for people with limited
  mobility.

 no, it's not written anywhere - i'm just using logic to extrapolate
 what we do at present to encompass how to deal with this situation

 there is a tag proposal discussion to explicitly determine whether a
 road has pavements on either side, both sides or neither, but i think
 it's stalled at some point. feel free to resurrect if you wish, i
 think it's something that needs sorting

 i'm sure the implied 'foot=yes', on all roads except motorways, is
 somehwere in the wikithough?

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Re: [OSM-talk] service roads as driveways

2008-08-25 Thread Charlie Echo

 I think that is the key here. The illogical use of 'unclassified' in the UK is
 what causes the problem. So 'service' was added as a designation for a small
 road that would probably be 'unclassified' in the rest of the world.

From what I understand:
- unclassified fits to ways more often used than residential.
We have : motorway  trunk  primary  secondary  tertiary  unclassified  
residential  living_street.
So service cannot be replaced by unclassified because it is not the 
smallest road type.
Residential and Living_street have specific meanings. 
But to be honnest, unclassified is really a bad name because it's not 
explicit and is mixed with undefined. I would have choosen something like 
local_trafic (wherea residential means mostly for people living in the 
street, and living_street is even more local).

- Service fits to ways which lead to a specific service, and that people would 
not use if not interested by the service: parking area, fuel stations, 
supermarkets: drivers enter the way with the clear intention to shop, to park, 
... (No one would use a fuel station as a U-turn zone.) It fits between 
buildings; it fits as back-entrance to shops (when trucks bring goods in, or 
when buyers get high-volume goods they just paid for in the shop, such as 
furniture; ...)


The main issue we have with tags is that they are not international enough:
- for instance, there is one tag about public transport vehicle (from the top 
of my mind) called ptv_something, and it's always a pain to remember it. And 
the PTV scheme does not fit any other country schemes, so no one can use this 
tag.
- another example: the famous living streets do not exist in most countries, 
because the definition is strictly related to driving codes. So other countries 
will have to adapt the tag, or to decide not to use it (which is mostly the 
case in France), or to create another one.

In these cases, the tags are too precise, and not international enough.

The best way to manage this would be to create generic tags with possibly 
slightly different meanings in different countries (we have different speed 
limits in different countries...) This has been managed with primary / 
secondary / tertiary, which are not state_managed / couty_managed / 
city_managed but more generic.


I think it may be a good idea to create a task-force with few leaders (3 ?), 
and 3 active contributors per COUNTRY (with at least one living in a big city, 
and another one in countryside), who would redefine the tags. As said, it's 
going to happen anyway some time.
I also think that a common tags set for all countries just cannot be feasible.





- Mail Original -
De: Robin Paulson [EMAIL PROTECTED]
À: OSM Talk talk@openstreetmap.org
Envoyé: Lundi 25 Août 2008 11:39:08 GMT +01:00 Amsterdam / Berlin / Berne / 
Rome / Stockholm / Vienne
Objet: Re: [OSM-talk] service roads as driveways

2008/8/25 Lester Caine [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
 I think that is the key here. The illogical use of 'unclassified' in the UK is
 what causes the problem. So 'service' was added as a designation for a small
 road that would probably be 'unclassified' in the rest of the world.

 We then add 'public' or 'private' relating to ACCESS, and I see little point
 adding yet another main 'designation' such as 'drive' unless there is a real
 difference in how these types of road need rendering.

 wiki is running incredibly slow at the moment, so I can't check some of the
 other fine detail, micro-mapping of private property such as drives, parking
 areas and property within an individuals boundaries should be 'ring-fenced'
 with tagging that allows this low level detail to be excluded as required?
 4 minutes to get http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/Highway page ...
 I'm almost tempted to suggest highway=private rather than highway=service,
 access=private, service=driveway. So I can see the reasoning behind tidying up
 some of this micro-mapping detail ... The 'service' attributes seem to
 contradict the actual definition of highway=service above

 And when did highway=services get added SURELY that is amenity=services ? If I
 am looking amenities I would NEVER look in the highway list!

agreed on all this

unfortunately, i think this is a side-effect of people adding to a tag
one bit at a time, with none considering the thing as a whole.

maybe we need someone or a coordinated group of someones to look at
this in detail and see how to fix them all together, now we've been
using the highway tag for some years, and most use cases have been
considered? it's going to happen sometime, all it needs is someone
brave to dive in...

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Re: [OSM-talk] Users' activity feeds

2008-08-25 Thread Hugh Barnes

On Saturday 23 August 2008 17:59:00 Hugh Barnes wrote:
If such feeds were to be provided through the project's infrastructure, it
shouldn't be too hard to do XSL transforms from a bounded area dataset
download [citation needed]. All of the required metadata seems to be there.
(Maybe not enough of history). I'll try to find some time tonight
(Saturday) to do this and hopefuly get back either way tomorrow.

I realise there would be questions of architecture before such a tool could
be deployed on a server (load, caching, possible size limits, frequency
limits), but it sounds like a fun exercise to start on.

I'm not sure what the easiest way to query a user's activity would be,
probably the API. (Again, wiki down). The bounded area dataset might also
be best obtained through API calls.

I've been picking away at a transformation of a bounded XML dataset. Must …
stop … tweaking. It seems usable locally at the moment, though I haven't been
able to get a nice rendering from Gecko. The validator says it's valid with a
few warnings.

I invoked the script with xsltproc on the sample URL in the wiki
(http://api.openstreetmap.org/api/0.5/map?bbox=11.54,48.14,11.543,48.145,
saved to api-sample.osm.xml), like so:

xsltproc --stringparam since.time 2008-06-02T20:28:47+01:00 osm2atom.xsl
api-sample.osm.xml change-sample.atom.xml

Unfortunately, you currently need to supply a comparison datetime as a
parameter. I can use the exslt templates to solve this, but it makes bundling
something I can simply attach a whole lot more difficult.

To get a local setup to continue checking changes for you, you'd need to
string together some scripts doing wget and cron, or whatever.

I've attached the XSL transformation (osm2atom.xsl) and my output document
(change-sample.atom.xml). I'll be happy to put this transform into svn if
anyone thinks it's worth pursuing as a service on the server. I also don't
mind moving this discussion to the dev list if it has legs.

Some miscellaneous notes, a.k.a. the devil in the detail:
- When the wiki came back, I looked at alternate datasources but didn't really
come up with anything completely suitable. The live dataset at least
shows changes (of unknown kinds) to OSM elements, so it's just workable as
a watch. I would like for there to be a dataset a little more suited to the
task. I don't think it's worth investing much more time transforming this
dataset.
- A timestamp in the bounded XML would be a useful enhancement
(/osm/@timestamp)
- The XML document has no namespace. This can cause problems for consumers.
- I only did bounded area changes, not user changes, as I couldn't find
anything suitable at all.

On the need for this type of service, I believe demand will only increase for
it, as Nick and François alluded, especially if vandalism and other
maliciousness becomes a problem.

Apologise if this is incoherent. Sleepiness has loomed.

Cheers
?xml version=1.0 encoding=UTF-8?
!-- see global parameter $XSL.version for version number --
!--
About:
This transformation takes a bounded area XML download from the OpenStreetMap API, and creates an Atom feed showing changes made since a supplied time or in an interval of time. Started by Hugh Barnes.

References:
- http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/OSM_Protocol_Version_0.5
- http://atomenabled.org/developers/syndication/

Contact:

Rights:
Please modify as desired, but annotate this header accordingly if you do. Rather you didn't remove any attributions.
--

!-- changes:
Created 2008-08-23
-
Last Mod: 2008-08-25
--

!-- TO DO:
-
(~ = partial; - to do; / = done)
--

xsl:stylesheet
xmlns:xsl=http://www.w3.org/1999/XSL/Transform;
xmlns:atom=http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom;
xmlns:exslt=http://exslt.org/common;
xmlns:date=http://exslt.org/dates-and-times;
xmlns:msxsl=urn:schemas-microsoft-com:xslt
exclude-result-prefixes=exslt msxsl date
version=1.1

!-- xsl:include href=../lib/foo.xsl / --

!-- assumptions:
- source dataset in API v.0.5, with some forward-looking
- date timezone is insignificant (set to GMT currently) - can fix by using datediff from exslt
- source dataset is the most useful available
- source document has no namespace, which kind of makes me have to wrestle with namespaces in the source vs result documents more than I want to
--

xsl:output method=xml version=1.0 encoding=utf-8 omit-xml-declaration=no indent=yes /

!-- This msxsl script extension fools msxsl into interpreting exslt extensions as msxsl ones, so
we can write code using exslt extensions even though msxsl only recognises the msxsl extension
namespace. Thanks to David Carlisle for this: http://dpcarlisle.blogspot.com/2007/05/exslt-node-set-function.html --
msxsl:script language=JScript implements-prefix=date
this['add'] = function (x) {
return x;
}
/msxsl:script
msxsl:script language=JScript implements-prefix=date
this['date-time'] = function (x) {
return x;
}
/msxsl:script

xsl:param

Re: [OSM-talk] service roads as driveways

2008-08-25 Thread Marc Schütz

 - another example: the famous living streets do not exist in most
 countries, because the definition is strictly related to driving codes. So 
 other
 countries will have to adapt the tag, or to decide not to use it (which is
 mostly the case in France), or to create another one.

There are similar concepts in a lot of countries; where there really is no 
analogue, the tag should simply not be used. The specific rules (maxspeed etc.) 
of course vary from country to country, but this is also true for all other 
highway types, esp. motorways. In what way do you see living_streets as special?

Regards, Marc

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Browser-Versionen downloaden: http://www.gmx.net/de/go/browser

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Re: [OSM-talk] service roads as driveways

2008/8/26 Charlie Echo [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
 The best way to manage this would be to create generic tags with possibly 
 slightly different meanings in different countries (we have different speed 
 limits in different countries...) This has been managed with primary / 
 secondary / tertiary, which are not state_managed / couty_managed / 
 city_managed but more generic.


the problem is, the highway code is the definitive document for each
country, and the likelihood of any of them coinciding 100% is
somewhere close to nil. which means we either have the situation we
have now (which is only going to get worse, as mappers/users from more
and more countries get actively involved), where there are endless
variations on the highway tag to account for every road type. or we
make compromises, which is going to provoke a lot of debate and take
ages to sort, and probably be far from ideal


 I think it may be a good idea to create a task-force with few leaders (3 ?), 
 and 3 active contributors per COUNTRY (with at least one living in a big 
 city, and another one in countryside), who would redefine the tags. As said, 
 it's going to happen anyway some time.
 I also think that a common tags set for all countries just cannot be feasible.

i agree with all this; particularly the last paragraph

hand up here to volunteer for either

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Re: [OSM-talk] service roads as driveways

2008-08-25 Thread Inge Wallin

On Sunday 24 August 2008 12:06:56 Douglas Furlong wrote:
 2008/8/24 Inge Wallin [EMAIL PROTECTED]

  On Sunday 24 August 2008 02:41:29 Christoph Eckert wrote:
   Hi,
  
i've been using service roads for a variety of small, relatively
insignificant roads, such as alleyways between buildings, driveways
to stately homes, roads around school/university/hospital campuses
and so on, but something else recently has made me wonder whether to
use it more: in auckland, there are thousands of houses with very
long driveways, sometimes 300m. is this an acceptable use for the
tag?
  
   IMO: yes, perfect usage.
 
  Are you sure?
 
  I used to think so too, but lately I have reconsidered.
 
  One way to look at highway=service is that it should be used for roads
  that we
  wouldn't really miss if they weren't rendered at all.  Good examples can
  be found above: roads between buildings, short drives to or on parking
  lots, roads to fuel stations, etc.
 
  Long driveways to houses *would* probably be missed, at least I would
  miss them. So I would myself instead use highway=unclassified, possibly
  with surface=unpaved if that is the case.

 And access=private I assume?

 If we are mapping people's drive ways, I would have thought we should also
 be stating that they are private property (begs the question, what we are
 doing on their land in the first place.

I see that I may have misunderstood the word 'driveway'. As a non-native 
English speaker, I wasn't aware that it meant private way up to a house. My 
interpretation was a public way up to the property, at which end the 
private part would start.

In that case, I take back what I wrote above, and agree that highway=service 
would be perfect.

-Inge



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Re: [OSM-talk] highway = path in mapnik/osmarander

2008-08-25 Thread Gregory

What's wrong with highway=footway ?
Or highway=cycleway if it is mainly for cyclists.

2008/8/25 wer-ist-roger [EMAIL PROTECTED]

 Hej everyone,

 there are several ways that I know of that need to be highway = path but
 neither mapnik nor osmarander render pathes. I think that path is a real
 important tag, is there a plan or a chance that mapnik and/or osmarander
 are
 going to render it?

 wer-ist-roger

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Re: [OSM-talk] JOSM users will love this feature

2008-08-25 Thread Gregory

2008/8/25 Dirk-Lüder Kreie [EMAIL PROTECTED]

 Gregory schrieb:

 2008/8/23 Chris Jones [EMAIL PROTECTED]

  On 23 Aug 2008, at 02:47, Frederik Ramm wrote:

 

I've just for the first time used a new feature that Dirk Stoecker
 has added to JOSM and it's really great: Select a way and between each
 pair of nodes you get a little cross symbol which, as soon as you grab
 and move it with the mouse, becomes a new node. This makes refining
 existing ways so much easier. Just get josm-latest to use it.

 

 That's fantastic! It makes the whole process massively less painful.


 I don't understand.
 Is this just to skip changing to the node tool (press 'n' on the
 keyboard)?


 it's so you don't have to go to node tool, insert node, go to select, move
 node, go back to node tool insert another node, go back to select and move
 node...

 Now you just grabdrag.

 Ok, I was quite quick with my left hand operating 'n'(node tool) and
's'(select/move tool) while my right hand operated the mouse.
I will see how it is when I get round to downloading/using JOSM next time,
but I don't see it as being a bad thing.


-- 
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[OSM-talk] Administrative boundaries (UK)

2008-08-25 Thread Bob Hawkins

I wonder from where most people obtain their administrative boundaries to 
digitise for OSM?  The most prevalent source is Ordnance Survey, but that 
current data is copyrighted, of course.  I am particularly interested in civil 
parish boundaries, then in local authority boundaries to build up areas of 
interest and coverage.  Can anyone help?

With regards,

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Re: [OSM-talk] Administrative boundaries (UK)

2008-08-25 Thread Shaun McDonald


Hi Bob,

Use the information on the ground. You will usually find signs welcoming 
you to the new area. It may be a few hundred metres either side, so look 
for the change in tar quality. You may also find that bin mapping is an 
option since the council often puts their name on the bins. (In Ireland 
you need to do bin mapping to get the names of the streets, rather than 
the boundaries).


Shaun

Bob Hawkins wrote:
I wonder from where most people obtain their administrative boundaries 
to digitise for OSM?  The most prevalent source is Ordnance Survey, 
but that current data is copyrighted, of course.  I am particularly 
interested in civil parish boundaries, then in local authority 
boundaries to build up areas of interest and coverage.  Can anyone help?
 
With regards,
 
Bob Hawkins



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[OSM-talk] High-Precision GPS Survey Equipment?

2008-08-25 Thread Ian Dees

Hi list,

Has anyone out there had any experience with the high-precision GPS survey
equipment? While poking around on eBay yesterday I ran into some sub-meter
and sub-decimeter precision GPS equipment. It was extremely expensive
(USD$5000 - 15000), but it would be fun to try borrowing one of these units
from the local university to get readings for some important places.

-Ian
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Re: [OSM-talk] mkcntr2.pl: perl hackers wanted to fix contours....

 Original Message 
Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] mkcntr2.pl: perl hackers wanted to fix contours
From:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date:Mon, August 25, 2008 11:56 am
To:  Gora Mohanty [EMAIL PROTECTED]
--

Hello Gora,
Thanks for the offer of help. Attached is a very small excerpt of contours
from around the area where I'm mapping. I didn't want to do too much as
they generally come out with pretty huge files

--
$ du -ah *.osm
184Kcontours.osm
244Mcontours_10m.osm
98M contours_25m.osm
49M contours_50m.osm
--

The excerpt give 10m contours, but you should be able to generate whatever
you want from 'extract.txt'. If you need more data and don't want to
download the SRTM data for your/my area let me know and I'll cut out
another section.

Regarding what the 'should' look like; I believe that in addition to whats
in the example OSM file, there should be additional tags such as
'contour_ext = elevation_major' for major multiples, along with
'contour_ext = elevation_medium' and 'contour_ext = elevation_minor' for
the others.

I think this would be along the line of...
--
way id='105015' timestamp='0001-01-01T00:00:00'
nd ref='150442' /
nd ref='150443' /
nd ref='150444' /
nd ref='150445' /
tag k='contour' v='elevation' /
tag k='ele' v='1200' /
tag k='contour_ext' v='elevation_major' /
tag k='created_by' v='mkcntr2' /
/way
--

Once it's coded I can 'spin' a map and tell you whether this is correct.

Thanks,
Simon.

PS. There is a 1000m ceiling by default, most of my area is above that
which means that you don't get many contours

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Re: [OSM-talk] High-Precision GPS Survey Equipment?

Hi Ian,
How much precision do you want/need? And apart from the fun of it, does it
actually benefit OSM going to these lengths?

If you were in Alberta I might be able to get some 'test time' on a couple
of dual frequency units

Mungewell.

PS. Some of the Garmin units can be put into a 'test' mode where they spit
out raw data, which can be post processed. But then you are limited by the
crappy patch antenna and the quality of the receiver electronics.

 Hi list,

 Has anyone out there had any experience with the high-precision GPS survey
 equipment? While poking around on eBay yesterday I ran into some sub-meter
 and sub-decimeter precision GPS equipment. It was extremely expensive
 (USD$5000 - 15000), but it would be fun to try borrowing one of these
 units
 from the local university to get readings for some important places.

 -Ian
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Re: [OSM-talk] High-Precision GPS Survey Equipment?

2008-08-25 Thread Ian Dees

On Mon, Aug 25, 2008 at 11:02 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Hi Ian,
 How much precision do you want/need? And apart from the fun of it, does it
 actually benefit OSM going to these lengths?

 If you were in Alberta I might be able to get some 'test time' on a couple
 of dual frequency units


Well I was just thinking about the fun of it. The experience of using
professional survey equipment and perhaps talking with a professional
surveyor could benefit OSM perhaps.

Alas, I'm in Wisconsin, just out of reach of Alberta. Thank you though!
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Re: [OSM-talk] mkcntr2.pl: perl hackers wanted to fix contours....

2008-08-25 Thread Nic Roets

I've never coded in perl, but this seems to work :

B.t.w. is there some way to do very large areas ? hunderds of
thousands of km^2 ?


 print GNUPLOT set terminal table
 unset surface
 set contour
-set cntrparam level incremental 0, $l, 1000
+set cntrparam level incremental 0, $l, 5000
 #set table 'tmp.cnt'
 set output 'tmp.cnt'
 #set terminal table 'tmp.cnt'
@@ -85,7 +85,16 @@
 print nd ref='$prefix$s' /\n;
 }
 print tag k='contour' v='elevation' /\n;
+if (int ($z / $ARGV[3]) * $ARGV[3] == $z) {
+  print tag k='contour_ext' v='elevation_major'\n;
+}
+else {
+  if (int ($z / $ARGV[2]) * $ARGV[2] == $z) {
+print tag k='contour_ext' v='elevation_minor'\n;
+  }
+}
 print tag k='ele' v='$z' /\n;
 print tag k='created_by' v='mkcntr2' /\n;
 print /way\n;
 return $id;

On Mon, Aug 25, 2008 at 5:57 PM,  [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  Original Message 
 Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] mkcntr2.pl: perl hackers wanted to fix contours
 From:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Date:Mon, August 25, 2008 11:56 am
 To:  Gora Mohanty [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 --

 Hello Gora,
 Thanks for the offer of help. Attached is a very small excerpt of contours
 from around the area where I'm mapping. I didn't want to do too much as
 they generally come out with pretty huge files

 --
 $ du -ah *.osm
 184Kcontours.osm
 244Mcontours_10m.osm
 98M contours_25m.osm
 49M contours_50m.osm
 --

 The excerpt give 10m contours, but you should be able to generate whatever
 you want from 'extract.txt'. If you need more data and don't want to
 download the SRTM data for your/my area let me know and I'll cut out
 another section.

 Regarding what the 'should' look like; I believe that in addition to whats
 in the example OSM file, there should be additional tags such as
 'contour_ext = elevation_major' for major multiples, along with
 'contour_ext = elevation_medium' and 'contour_ext = elevation_minor' for
 the others.

 I think this would be along the line of...
 --
 way id='105015' timestamp='0001-01-01T00:00:00'
 nd ref='150442' /
 nd ref='150443' /
 nd ref='150444' /
 nd ref='150445' /
 tag k='contour' v='elevation' /
 tag k='ele' v='1200' /
 tag k='contour_ext' v='elevation_major' /
 tag k='created_by' v='mkcntr2' /
 /way
 --

 Once it's coded I can 'spin' a map and tell you whether this is correct.

 Thanks,
 Simon.

 PS. There is a 1000m ceiling by default, most of my area is above that
 which means that you don't get many contours




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Re: [OSM-talk] High-Precision GPS Survey Equipment?

2008-08-25 Thread Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason

On Mon, Aug 25, 2008 at 4:02 PM,  [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Hi Ian,
 How much precision do you want/need? And apart from the fun of it, does it
 actually benefit OSM going to these lengths?

My fairly accurate Garmin 60CSx is still wildly inaccurate when I
position myself at the corner of a building and try to measure its
dimensions since the building and the surrounding blocks most GPS
signals. So more accurate surveying equipment would for one thing be
more useful in getting data of regular quality in areas where there's
bad reception.

There's also the whole use case of mapping things with 5m accuracy
where most GPS units start being very inaccurate.

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Re: [OSM-talk] High-Precision GPS Survey Equipment?

2008-08-25 Thread Frederik Ramm

Hi,

 My fairly accurate Garmin 60CSx is still wildly inaccurate when I
 position myself at the corner of a building and try to measure its
 dimensions since the building and the surrounding blocks most GPS
 signals.

What if you had a very light bluetooth GPS mouse and strapped it to a 
helium-filled baloon, you know, the toy shop/fun fair variety, then let 
it slowly ascend tied to a light yarn until you're at the top of the 
building... ;-)

Bye
Frederik

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Re: [OSM-talk] highway = path in mapnik/osmarander

2008-08-25 Thread wer-ist-roger

What's wrong with highway=footway ?
Or highway=cycleway if it is mainly for cyclists.

As far as I understand is footway or cycleway a very good constructed way and 
path can be anything where you can walk or bike on and that is less than a 
track. Correct me if I'm wrong but from the map feature page I understand it 
this way.

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Re: [OSM-talk] High-Precision GPS Survey Equipment?

2008-08-25 Thread Charlie Echo

Just to confirm:
GPS position is calculated from signals received from satellites: if all 
satellites give you the time and their position, by calculating the difference 
of time, you get the difference of distance to them, and consequently the 
position.

If the signals are reflected on walls, their distance from satellite may 
increase by 10 or 20 meters, or even more. So there is no way, in such 
conditions, to get a precise position, except by waiting to have all signals in 
direct view.
High precision GPS have highly accurate clocks, so that they can calculate 
precisely the difference of time. Possibly, they can decide to neglect some 
measurements out of range (if 5 satellites give one position and a 6th one a 
different position). 

But you will not get a meter-accuracy with GPS around buildings.

Another way to increase accuracy MAY BE to add an acceleration sensor, that 
will give you your position compared to one reference point (because a GPS in 
open-space can give you a good accuracy after some time).


- Mail Original -
De: Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason [EMAIL PROTECTED]
À: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cc: osm talk@openstreetmap.org
Envoyé: Lundi 25 Août 2008 19:22:17 GMT +01:00 Amsterdam / Berlin / Berne / 
Rome / Stockholm / Vienne
Objet: Re: [OSM-talk] High-Precision GPS Survey Equipment?

On Mon, Aug 25, 2008 at 4:02 PM,  [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Hi Ian,
 How much precision do you want/need? And apart from the fun of it, does it
 actually benefit OSM going to these lengths?

My fairly accurate Garmin 60CSx is still wildly inaccurate when I
position myself at the corner of a building and try to measure its
dimensions since the building and the surrounding blocks most GPS
signals. So more accurate surveying equipment would for one thing be
more useful in getting data of regular quality in areas where there's
bad reception.

There's also the whole use case of mapping things with 5m accuracy
where most GPS units start being very inaccurate.

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[OSM-talk] [tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - landuse=historic_center

2008-08-25 Thread Alessio Zanol

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/Proposed_features/Historic_center

Alessio

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Re: [OSM-talk] highway = path in mapnik/osmarander

2008-08-25 Thread Alex Mauer

Gregory wrote:
 What's wrong with highway=footway ?
 Or highway=cycleway if it is mainly for cyclists.

because not all such paths are for foot or bicycle, and
highway=footway+foot=no is not a good way to do it. (same for
highway=cycleway+bicycle=no)

And calling something a footway implicitly puts foot above the other
uses, even though this may not be the case in reality.  The designated
access value helps with this though.

-Alex Mauer hawke


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Re: [OSM-talk] High-Precision GPS Survey Equipment?

2008-08-25 Thread bvh

On Mon, Aug 25, 2008 at 05:22:17PM +, Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason wrote:
 My fairly accurate Garmin 60CSx is still wildly inaccurate when I
 position myself at the corner of a building and try to measure its
 dimensions since the building and the surrounding blocks most GPS
 signals. So more accurate surveying equipment would for one thing be
 more useful in getting data of regular quality in areas where there's
 bad reception.

I recently spoke with someone who's job it is to measure newly laid
cables and conduits in my hometown. He says even the professional GPS's
they have will not fix (accuratly enough) a lot of times. Around
buildings and under trees they still resort to measuring distances from
a point where they do get a fix and then project the points (their gear
does this nearly automatically for them though).

Another thing : the high precision GPS gear comes with an (expensive)
subscription for providing the highest accuracy...

cu bart

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Re: [OSM-talk] Administrative boundaries (UK)

2008-08-25 Thread Chris Hill

I've managed to map county boundaries from signs like Welcome to ... and 
other features like it runs along a river.  Some boundaries can be taken from 
out-of-copyright maps because they haven't changed.  I too would like to draw 
parish boundaries but I have no luck with any non-copyright source yet. I hope 
you find something useful.

 cheers, Chris



- Original Message 
From: Bob Hawkins [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: talk@openstreetmap.org
Sent: Monday, 25 August, 2008 2:45:49 PM
Subject: [OSM-talk] Administrative boundaries (UK)

 
I wonder from where most people obtain their 
administrative boundaries to digitise for OSM?  The most prevalent source 
is Ordnance Survey, but that current data is copyrighted, of course.  I am 
particularly interested in civil parish boundaries, then in local authority 
boundaries to build up areas of interest and coverage.  Can anyone 
help?
 
With regards,
 
Bob Hawkins

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Re: [OSM-talk] Administrative boundaries (UK)

2008-08-25 Thread Peter Miller

 From: Shaun McDonald [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Administrative boundaries (UK)
 To: Bob Hawkins [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Cc: talk@openstreetmap.org
 Message-ID: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1

 Hi Bob,

 Use the information on the ground. You will usually find signs welcoming
 you to the new area. It may be a few hundred metres either side, so look
 for the change in tar quality. You may also find that bin mapping is an
 option since the council often puts their name on the bins. (In Ireland
 you need to do bin mapping to get the names of the streets, rather than
 the boundaries).

Old (NPE) OS mapping is good. I was amazed to find how little of the county
boundary had changed in the past 50 years. I would use local knowledge and a
variety of current (possibly copyright) sources to see if the old OS maps
were still current and then digitise off the old maps. For my county the
majority of the boundary was along rivers anyway (which I also entered from
old OS (NPE) maps.

The borough boundary however defeated me; It has changed considerably and
for the majority doesn't follow any recognisable features on the ground so I
don't have any usable source for that at the moment and have left it alone.

It is possible that where it is not clear that it doesn't really matter much
anyway (certainly not 200 meters either way), and that where it is in urban
areas one should be able to get it on or between the appropriate roads. I
might return to the borough boundary some time and have another go. I might
ask a borough councillor to draw the boundary on my paper map and then
transcribe it.

Regards,

Peter

 Shaun

 Bob Hawkins wrote:
  I wonder from where most people obtain their administrative boundaries
  to digitise for OSM?  The most prevalent source is Ordnance Survey,
  but that current data is copyrighted, of course.  I am particularly
  interested in civil parish boundaries, then in local authority
  boundaries to build up areas of interest and coverage.  Can anyone help?

  With regards,

  Bob Hawkins

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Re: [OSM-talk] mkcntr2.pl: perl hackers wanted to fix contours....

Perl looks like it might fly... I'll give it a go.

The raw data is available in sets, each covering only a portion of the
world. This page gives you a map of these:
http://srtm.csi.cgiar.org/SELECTION/inputCoord.asp

These files are huge, the one I downloaded covering around Blairmore, AB is:
---
166Msrtm_14_03.ASC
48M srtm_14_03.ZIP
---

and the resultant contour.osm files are even worse..

No reason one couldn't provide a series of tiles to cover a wide area.
Simon.






 I've never coded in perl, but this seems to work :

 B.t.w. is there some way to do very large areas ? hunderds of
 thousands of km^2 ?


  print GNUPLOT set terminal table
  unset surface
  set contour
 -set cntrparam level incremental 0, $l, 1000
 +set cntrparam level incremental 0, $l, 5000
  #set table 'tmp.cnt'
  set output 'tmp.cnt'
  #set terminal table 'tmp.cnt'
 @@ -85,7 +85,16 @@
  print nd ref='$prefix$s' /\n;
  }
  print tag k='contour' v='elevation' /\n;
 +if (int ($z / $ARGV[3]) * $ARGV[3] == $z) {
 +  print tag k='contour_ext' v='elevation_major'\n;
 +}
 +else {
 +  if (int ($z / $ARGV[2]) * $ARGV[2] == $z) {
 +print tag k='contour_ext' v='elevation_minor'\n;
 +  }
 +}
  print tag k='ele' v='$z' /\n;
  print tag k='created_by' v='mkcntr2' /\n;
  print /way\n;
  return $id;

 On Mon, Aug 25, 2008 at 5:57 PM,  [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  Original Message
 
 Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] mkcntr2.pl: perl hackers wanted to fix
 contours
 From:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Date:Mon, August 25, 2008 11:56 am
 To:  Gora Mohanty [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 --

 Hello Gora,
 Thanks for the offer of help. Attached is a very small excerpt of
 contours
 from around the area where I'm mapping. I didn't want to do too much as
 they generally come out with pretty huge files

 --
 $ du -ah *.osm
 184Kcontours.osm
 244Mcontours_10m.osm
 98M contours_25m.osm
 49M contours_50m.osm
 --

 The excerpt give 10m contours, but you should be able to generate
 whatever
 you want from 'extract.txt'. If you need more data and don't want to
 download the SRTM data for your/my area let me know and I'll cut out
 another section.

 Regarding what the 'should' look like; I believe that in addition to
 whats
 in the example OSM file, there should be additional tags such as
 'contour_ext = elevation_major' for major multiples, along with
 'contour_ext = elevation_medium' and 'contour_ext = elevation_minor' for
 the others.

 I think this would be along the line of...
 --
 way id='105015' timestamp='0001-01-01T00:00:00'
 nd ref='150442' /
 nd ref='150443' /
 nd ref='150444' /
 nd ref='150445' /
 tag k='contour' v='elevation' /
 tag k='ele' v='1200' /
 tag k='contour_ext' v='elevation_major' /
 tag k='created_by' v='mkcntr2' /
 /way
 --

 Once it's coded I can 'spin' a map and tell you whether this is correct.

 Thanks,
 Simon.

 PS. There is a 1000m ceiling by default, most of my area is above that
 which means that you don't get many contours




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Re: [OSM-talk] High-Precision GPS Survey Equipment?

2008-08-25 Thread Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason

On Mon, Aug 25, 2008 at 5:33 PM, Frederik Ramm [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 What if you had a very light bluetooth GPS mouse and strapped it to a
 helium-filled baloon, you know, the toy shop/fun fair variety, then let it
 slowly ascend tied to a light yarn until you're at the top of the
 building... ;-)

Sir, I wish to subscribe to your newsletter.

:)

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Re: [OSM-talk] High-Precision GPS Survey Equipment?

2008-08-25 Thread Alberto Riva

Hi
I use normally a EGNOS/WAAS submeter DGPS, often for OSM mapping. :-)
My DGPS run really well only in optimal conditions (no satellite
obstruction, multipath, etc.), but I observed that the performance in a
urban environment is normally lower than a normal bluetooth GPS based on a
Sirf III or a MTK chipset. I think that one of the keys of these cheaper
GPSs are the better sensitivity than the most expensive DGPS, as well as the
algorithm for calculating the position (myDGPS uses also carrier for
decoding the signal).

Bye
Alberto
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Re: [OSM-talk] High-Precision GPS Survey Equipment?

2008-08-25 Thread Andy Robinson (blackadder-lists)

Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason wrote:
Sent: 25 August 2008 6:22 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cc: osm
Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] High-Precision GPS Survey Equipment?

On Mon, Aug 25, 2008 at 4:02 PM,  [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Hi Ian,
 How much precision do you want/need? And apart from the fun of it, does
it
 actually benefit OSM going to these lengths?

My fairly accurate Garmin 60CSx is still wildly inaccurate when I
position myself at the corner of a building and try to measure its
dimensions since the building and the surrounding blocks most GPS
signals. So more accurate surveying equipment would for one thing be
more useful in getting data of regular quality in areas where there's
bad reception.

The way surveyors get around this problem (yes even the best GPS systems
cant see around corners) is to take 8 waypoints by sighting down the edge of
a building (2 points for each side). You can then draw the shape where the
lines intersect. This is how the Ordnance Survey do it for instance (using
an optical square to improve accuracy).

There's also the whole use case of mapping things with 5m accuracy
where most GPS units start being very inaccurate.

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Re: [OSM-talk] High-Precision GPS Survey Equipment?

2008-08-25 Thread Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason

On Mon, Aug 25, 2008 at 9:44 PM, Andy Robinson (blackadder-lists)
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 The way surveyors get around this problem (yes even the best GPS systems
 cant see around corners) is to take 8 waypoints by sighting down the edge of
 a building (2 points for each side). You can then draw the shape where the
 lines intersect. This is how the Ordnance Survey do it for instance (using
 an optical square to improve accuracy).

This is what I generally do when I need to survey buildings but it can
get hard in some situations when there are buildings everywhere and
you can't find a good point to do even this.

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Re: [OSM-talk] Administrative boundaries (UK)

2008-08-25 Thread Andy Robinson (blackadder-lists)

Peter Miller wrote:
Sent: 25 August 2008 7:26 PM
To: talk@openstreetmap.org
Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Administrative boundaries (UK)

 From: Shaun McDonald [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Administrative boundaries (UK)
 To: Bob Hawkins [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Cc: talk@openstreetmap.org
 Message-ID: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1

 Hi Bob,

 Use the information on the ground. You will usually find signs welcoming
 you to the new area. It may be a few hundred metres either side, so look
 for the change in tar quality. You may also find that bin mapping is an
 option since the council often puts their name on the bins. (In Ireland
 you need to do bin mapping to get the names of the streets, rather than
 the boundaries).

Old (NPE) OS mapping is good. I was amazed to find how little of the county
boundary had changed in the past 50 years. I would use local knowledge and
a
variety of current (possibly copyright) sources to see if the old OS maps
were still current and then digitise off the old maps. For my county the
majority of the boundary was along rivers anyway (which I also entered from
old OS (NPE) maps.

Agreed, except it tends to break down for the big urban centres where the
original county boundaries made way for the metropolitan districts. I can
bring the county boundaries into Birmingham from NPE very easily but
defining the boundaries within the urban area for Birmingham, Sandwell,
Walsall, Solihull etc needs the bin and recycle box approach, which I have
to say works remarkably well.

Cheers

Andy

The borough boundary however defeated me; It has changed considerably and
for the majority doesn't follow any recognisable features on the ground so
I
don't have any usable source for that at the moment and have left it alone.

It is possible that where it is not clear that it doesn't really matter
much
anyway (certainly not 200 meters either way), and that where it is in urban
areas one should be able to get it on or between the appropriate roads. I
might return to the borough boundary some time and have another go. I might
ask a borough councillor to draw the boundary on my paper map and then
transcribe it.

Regards,

Peter

 Shaun

 Bob Hawkins wrote:
  I wonder from where most people obtain their administrative boundaries
  to digitise for OSM?  The most prevalent source is Ordnance Survey,
  but that current data is copyrighted, of course.  I am particularly
  interested in civil parish boundaries, then in local authority
  boundaries to build up areas of interest and coverage.  Can anyone
help?

  With regards,

  Bob Hawkins
  ---
-

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Re: [OSM-talk] High-Precision GPS Survey Equipment?

Hi all,
Just to give a hint at what is possible, the company I work for flagship
receiver (L1/L2 dual frequency) can achieve sub-cm accuracy for static
observations when tied into a nearby reference station (or other
receiver). The data is post processes to give the most accurate results.

Unfortunately this level of precision is not cheap, and the math behind
all this is far above my head...

Cheers,
Mungewell.




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Re: [OSM-talk] highway = path in mapnik/osmarander

Hi,

 I think that path is a real
 important tag, is there a plan or a chance that mapnik and/or osmarander
 are going to render it?

osmarender does it (and BTW the bike layout in Navit as well):
http://tinyurl.com/5hybeu

Best regards,

ce

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Re: [OSM-talk] highway = path in mapnik/osmarander

Hi,

 What's wrong with highway=footway ?
 Or highway=cycleway if it is mainly for cyclists.

nothing. But there are paths like hiking paths which have been tagged as 
footways in the past. IMO that's wrong. For me, a footway has to be paved. A 
path most often isn't.

Cheers,

ce

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Re: [OSM-talk] highway = path in mapnik/osmarander

2008-08-25 Thread Alex Mauer

Christoph Eckert wrote:
 nothing. But there are paths like hiking paths which have been tagged as 
 footways in the past. IMO that's wrong. For me, a footway has to be paved. A 
 path most often isn't.

I don't think path or footway say anything about the surface of the
route.  Just the size and what's allowed to use it.  You might want to
use the surface=* tag for that.

-Alex Mauer hawke


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Re: [OSM-talk] Left and Right?

2008-08-25 Thread Mark Williams

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

robin paulson wrote:
 Rory McCann wrote:
 Gervase Markham wrote:
 What's current tagging best practice with things which are to the left
 or the right of a way (e.g. bus stops)?

 A nearly-approved proposal for a canal-side object has been objected to
 by someone who thinks that the tag should be on a node which is part of
 the canal rather than next to it, with left/right indicated as part of
 the tag key name.
 http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/Proposed_features/Mooring

 Do we do that for any other tags? Do we have highway:left=bus_stop?

 Gerv
 Personally I add the node to left of the way, not as part of the way. I 
 believe the OSM theory is that the way represents the middle of the 
 road. So things like mini-roundabounds and traffic lights are part of 
 the way (ie road), but a bus stop is off to the side of the road.
 
 the problem with this is that 'bus stop' (and canal mooring, etc,) 
 implies a place where the bus stops, which is on the road.
 
 the fact the bus shelter, or sign, or bench, is some distance off to the 
 side of the road shouldn't matter - the bus itself stops on the road, so 
 the node imo should be part of the way
 
 if the bus stop is off to the side of the road, i.e. not connected to 
 it, then the bus can't physically get to it, which seems very wrong
 
 or, consider from the pedestrian's point-of-view:
 it is assumed for all roads except motorways and where explicitly 
 stated, that there is foot=yes access. in which case, the 
 footpath/sidewalk/pavement is therefore part of the way which represents 
 the road; we don't draw  a separate way off to one side, running 
 parallel. the bus stop must be on the footpath for the pedestrian to be 
 able to walk up to it, so again it must be part of the way
 
 this problem is i think muddled by the fact we represent an area (a 
 road) with a linear object (a way), which theoretically has zero width, 
 so the natural step from this is to say:
 'the way represents the centre of the road, and the bus stop/canal 
 mooring is not in the centre of the road, it's at the side of the road, 
 so I'll put it to one side of the way'
 
 as for placing the node to one side of the way in order to get the icon 
 to be placed correctly, this sounds a lot like 'tagging for the renderer'
 

I disagree with this view.
Do you tag post boxes as way nodes? Shops? Telephones?
No...
So why bus stops? They aren't in the road. They are sites on the side,
like all of the above. It makes no sense to tag them as way objects.

I have seen the arguments about knowing which way they belong to; IMHO
this is specious, no bus company works by looking at OSM to see where to
route their buses, but a map user may well want to know just where the
bus stop is - Anyone looking at a map of where they are who doesn't know
which side they drive, is in trouble. The same goes for any navigation
software.

It really isn't hard to link from bus-stops as points to nearby ways -
check out all the routing apps, not many need a hard node ID or way ID
to commence from / get to - they find a nearby way from a lat/long. If
Gosmore can do it, why not any other app?

It just introduces a whole load of hassle working out which bus stop
goes in which direction, sticking it in the middle of the road. It looks
stupid in the renderers for a very good reason.

My 2p, but I don't want this to look like everyone thinks that way nodes
are good..

Mark
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Re: [OSM-talk] highway = path in mapnik/osmarander

Hi,

 I don't think path or footway say anything about the surface of the
 route.  Just the size and what's allowed to use it.  You might want to
 use the surface=* tag for that.

agreed. But it's only one aspect. A footway IMO is for pedestrians only (or at 
least mostly used by pedestrians). A path isn't. It's used by hikers, 
cyclists, maybe even motorbikes, horses and (grin) snowmobiles :) .

The discussion about Do we want to have paths or even not will lead us 
nowhere. A certain amount of mappers wants to use it. Thus it's in the 
database. It just does not matter if this amount is 2, 10, 30, 60 or even 80% 
of all mappers. The only fact that counts is: it is in the database because 
people need and use it.

Just my two cents,

ce


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Re: [OSM-talk] Left and Right?

2008-08-25 Thread Karl Newman

On Mon, Aug 25, 2008 at 3:34 PM, Mark Williams [EMAIL PROTECTED]wrote:

 -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
 Hash: SHA1

 robin paulson wrote:
  Rory McCann wrote:
  Gervase Markham wrote:
  What's current tagging best practice with things which are to the left
  or the right of a way (e.g. bus stops)?
 
  A nearly-approved proposal for a canal-side object has been objected to
  by someone who thinks that the tag should be on a node which is part of
  the canal rather than next to it, with left/right indicated as part of
  the tag key name.
  http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/Proposed_features/Mooring
 
  Do we do that for any other tags? Do we have highway:left=bus_stop?
 
  Gerv
  Personally I add the node to left of the way, not as part of the way. I
  believe the OSM theory is that the way represents the middle of the
  road. So things like mini-roundabounds and traffic lights are part of
  the way (ie road), but a bus stop is off to the side of the road.
 
  the problem with this is that 'bus stop' (and canal mooring, etc,)
  implies a place where the bus stops, which is on the road.
 
  the fact the bus shelter, or sign, or bench, is some distance off to the
  side of the road shouldn't matter - the bus itself stops on the road, so
  the node imo should be part of the way
 
  if the bus stop is off to the side of the road, i.e. not connected to
  it, then the bus can't physically get to it, which seems very wrong
 
  or, consider from the pedestrian's point-of-view:
  it is assumed for all roads except motorways and where explicitly
  stated, that there is foot=yes access. in which case, the
  footpath/sidewalk/pavement is therefore part of the way which represents
  the road; we don't draw  a separate way off to one side, running
  parallel. the bus stop must be on the footpath for the pedestrian to be
  able to walk up to it, so again it must be part of the way
 
  this problem is i think muddled by the fact we represent an area (a
  road) with a linear object (a way), which theoretically has zero width,
  so the natural step from this is to say:
  'the way represents the centre of the road, and the bus stop/canal
  mooring is not in the centre of the road, it's at the side of the road,
  so I'll put it to one side of the way'
 
  as for placing the node to one side of the way in order to get the icon
  to be placed correctly, this sounds a lot like 'tagging for the renderer'
 

 I disagree with this view.
 Do you tag post boxes as way nodes? Shops? Telephones?
 No...
 So why bus stops? They aren't in the road. They are sites on the side,
 like all of the above. It makes no sense to tag them as way objects.

 I have seen the arguments about knowing which way they belong to; IMHO
 this is specious, no bus company works by looking at OSM to see where to
 route their buses, but a map user may well want to know just where the
 bus stop is - Anyone looking at a map of where they are who doesn't know
 which side they drive, is in trouble. The same goes for any navigation
 software.

 It really isn't hard to link from bus-stops as points to nearby ways -
 check out all the routing apps, not many need a hard node ID or way ID
 to commence from / get to - they find a nearby way from a lat/long. If
 Gosmore can do it, why not any other app?

 It just introduces a whole load of hassle working out which bus stop
 goes in which direction, sticking it in the middle of the road. It looks
 stupid in the renderers for a very good reason.

 My 2p, but I don't want this to look like everyone thinks that way nodes
 are good..

 Mark


If you happen to know exactly which nodes (which are not part of the way)
are your start and end points, then routers can deal with that. If you want
to know which bus stops you will pass while traveling along a way, that's a
much more difficult problem if the nodes are not somehow topologically
associated with the way. It's a more serious problem with house numbers
because the data volume is so much higher (many more house numbers than bus
stops), which makes it even more important to associate a number with a way
(and not by using the street name--that's not topological, is subject to
typos and is difficult to validate automatically).

Karl
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Re: [OSM-talk] Administrative boundaries (UK)

2008-08-25 Thread graham

Bob Hawkins wrote:
 
 I wonder from where most people obtain their administrative boundaries 
 to digitise for OSM?  

In my council the council puts its name and the old parish name (no 
longer existing formally) on street signs. Elsewhere you're stuck with 
common knowledge (eg the boundary goes along the river) or out of 
copyright maps with a lot of double checking on historical changes 
(abolition/merging of areas etc - where that hasn't happened boundaries 
seem to stay pretty stable).

Graham

The most prevalent source is Ordnance Survey, but
 that current data is copyrighted, of course.  I am particularly 
 interested in civil parish boundaries, then in local authority 
 boundaries to build up areas of interest and coverage.  Can anyone help?
  
 With regards,
  
 Bob Hawkins
 
 
 
 
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Re: [OSM-talk] Fetching and displaying OSM data via Oracle's MapViewer using Oracle's PL/SQL API

2008-08-25 Thread Iván Sánchez Ortega

El Sábado, 23 de Agosto de 2008, [EMAIL PROTECTED] escribió:
 I am currently working in Oracle Spatial and would like to know whether it
 is possible to use Oracle's PL/SQL API to fetch and display OSM data in a
 Web Browser, via Oracle's MapViewer? The PL/SQL API simply calls the
 relevant java API but by being in PL/SQL it allows one to call the programs
 more easily within PL/SQL code.

I doubt it can be done easily - the OSM API is just some custom XML over HTTP, 
and AFAIK, Oracle's PL/SQL cannot fetch arbitrary bits of XML over HTTP - 
please correct me if I'm wrong.

 I'm trying to figure out how to do this so that I do not have to keep 
 manually reimporting OSM data just to keep the data as fresh as the 
 planet.osm dumps.  

You should have a look at the available scripts for syncing a PostgreSQL DB 
with daily (or hourly) planet diffs - once you have set up a cronjob, there 
is absolutely no need to manually do anything.


Cheers,
-- 
--
Iván Sánchez Ortega [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Un ordenador no es un televisor ni un microondas, es una herramienta compleja.


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[OSM-talk-nl] presentatie tijdens OpenStreetMap Gebruikers dag?

2008-08-25 Thread Bas de Lange


Gert en anderen,

Ik zie jou naam hier vermeld op de wiki-agenda 
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/Netherlands_Mapping_Parties_2008#agenda 
. Betekent dat jij een presentatie wilt geven over de OV-kaart tijdens 
de OpenStreetMap Gebruikers Dag?


Zijn er nog andere OSM'ers  de graag iets willen presenteren, laten zien 
tijdens de OpenStreetMap Gebruikers Dag op zaterdag 13 september?

--
Met vriendelijke groet,

Bas de Lange

SoftwareFreedomDay Nederland
Bringing software freedom to a street near you!
http://www.softwarefreedomday.eu
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[OSM-talk-nl] Nederlandse OSM flyer!

2008-08-25 Thread Floris Looijesteijn

Ze zijn er!

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/Image:Dutch_openstreetmap_flyer.jpg

Als enigzins laat OSM verjaardagskado meteen maar een speciale surprise:

De eerste 10 mensen die reageren krijgen er gratis en voor niks een aantal
opgestuurd!

Stuur me je adres (niet via de mailinglist!) en hoeveel je er wilt hebben,
(maximaal 10) en ik stuur je ze toe.


Op de voorkant staat een algemeen verhaaltje en een screenshot van
Potlatch. En op de achterkant een demonstratie van de mogelijkheden: De
gebouwcontouren in Almere en de Carnavalskaart.

Ik heb ze vooral gemaakt om bij je te hebben tijdens het mappen zodat je
geinteresseerde mensen iets mee kunt geven. Daarnaast kunnen ze natuurlijk
uitgedeeld worden op de OSM gebruikers dag/SoftwareFreedomDay.

Groet,
Floris


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Re: [OSM-talk-nl] Nederlandse OSM flyer!

2008-08-25 Thread Freek

On Monday 25 August 2008, Floris Looijesteijn wrote:
 Ze zijn er!
 http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/Image:Dutch_openstreetmap_flyer.jpg

Hardstikke gaaf, man!

 Als enigzins laat OSM verjaardagskado meteen maar een speciale surprise:

 De eerste 10 mensen die reageren krijgen er gratis en voor niks een aantal
 opgestuurd!

Nou, bij deze maar proberen dan ;-)

 Stuur me je adres (niet via de mailinglist!) en hoeveel je er wilt hebben,
 (maximaal 10) en ik stuur je ze toe.

Neem er maar wat mee als je nog naar het tagging-overleg komt.

 Op de voorkant staat een algemeen verhaaltje en een screenshot van
 Potlatch. En op de achterkant een demonstratie van de mogelijkheden: De
 gebouwcontouren in Almere en de Carnavalskaart.

Goede voorbeelden!

-- 
Freek

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Re: [OSM-talk-nl] Nederlandse OSM flyer!

2008-08-25 Thread Martijn van Exel

Cool Floris, ziet er prima uit! Neem je ze mee op 13sep? (Als je er dan bent?)
Zo niet, dan moeten we zorgen dat er in elk geval iemand er wat
meeneemt naar daar.

Verder wil ik er wel wat voor aankomende lokale promotie-activiteiten.
Mijn adres heb je (ik stuur je nog een mail).

Wie heeft dit ookalweer betaald trouwens?

Grtz
Martijn

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Re: [OSM-talk-nl] Nederlandse OSM flyer!

2008-08-25 Thread Rob

Goed bezig !
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Re: [OSM-talk-nl] Nederlandse OSM flyer!

2008-08-25 Thread Stefan de Konink

Martijn van Exel schreef:
 Wie heeft dit ookalweer betaald trouwens?

Ene Floris sponsort dit... is GIS magnaat, en gaat AND opkopen.


Stefan

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Re: [OSM-talk-nl] Nederlandse OSM flyer!

2008-08-25 Thread Martijn van Exel

is goed. Ik heb woensdagavond een afspraak met Gert in het
wegrestaurant boven de A4, misschien zie je kans om daar ff heen te
komen? Anders een keer in adam ook prima.
Martijn

2008/8/25 Floris Looijesteijn [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
 Dank U! Er was een anonieme welgever: ik zelf, om meteen maar uit de
 anonimiteit te treden.

 Ik weet nog niet of ik er de 13e bij ben want de 14e is er een
 mini-mapping party in Leiden (daarover snel meer). Misschien kunnen we
 even 'meet'-en in Amsterdam zodat jij er wat mee kunt nemen?

 Groet,
 Floris

 Martijn van Exel schreef:
 Cool Floris, ziet er prima uit! Neem je ze mee op 13sep? (Als je er dan
 bent?)
 Zo niet, dan moeten we zorgen dat er in elk geval iemand er wat
 meeneemt naar daar.

 Verder wil ik er wel wat voor aankomende lokale promotie-activiteiten.
 Mijn adres heb je (ik stuur je nog een mail).

 Wie heeft dit ookalweer betaald trouwens?

 Grtz
 Martijn

 --
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Re: [OSM-talk-nl] Werkgroep Tagging Standaard

2008-08-25 Thread Geert Schuring

Hey,

Ik was eigenlijk van plan om het bij mij thuis te doen (Ede). Dat is per
trein ook goed te bereiken, en dan hebben we koud bier, en internet bij
de hand. Verder kunnen we zelf bepalen hoe laat we het maken.

Groeten,
Geert.


On Sun, 2008-08-24 at 20:59 +0200, Roeland Douma wrote:
 Hoi,
 
 Om het maar vast even over de lokatie te hebben. Misschien is het handig om 
 het in Amsterdam/Utrecht te doen. Er zijn daar genoeg cafe/restaurants in de 
 buurt van stations wat het voor veel mensen goed bereikbaar maakt.
 
 Plus dat op deze manier we er ook nog een sociaal gebeuren van kunnen maken 
 door samen een koud biertje te drinken.
 
 Goed idee?
 
 Groet,
 Roeland
 
 On Wednesday 20 August 2008 13:46:31 Geert Schuring wrote:
  Heren en Dames,
 
  Het is mijn overtuiging dat de tijd is aangebroken om een duidelijke
  standaard voor OSM tags in Nederland op te stellen. Aan de hand van deze
  gids moet een ieder aan de hand van sluitende definities kunnen vaststellen
  welke tags een willekeurige weg of pad moet krijgen.
 
  Deze standaard is mijns inziens noodzakelijk om in een later stadium
  effectief navigatie software en consistente grafische weergaves te maken
  van de OSM data. Op internationaal niveau zijn er al een aantal afspraken
  (zoals de Map_Features pagina) en hier zullen we zo veel mogelijk bij
  aansluiten. Deze internationale afspraken zijn echter verre van sluitend,
  en niet voldoende geschikt om beginners het land in te sturen.
 
  Ik zal voorlopig het voorzitterschap op me nemen. Klinkt zwaarder dan het
  is, maar iemand moet even de eerste stappen zetten. Dit brengt me tot de
  volgende voorlopige deelnemerslijst:
 
  - Geert Schuring (Voorzitter)
  - Freek van Wal
 
  Laten we Doodle gebruiken om de datum te bepalen van de eerste meeting.
  Wanneer je je aanmeld voor de werkgroep, geef dan via Doodle ook meteen aan
  wanneer je kunt: www.doodle.ch/ywnei2dg7g5c73v9
 
  Ik wacht met spanning af!
 
  Groeten,
  Geert Schuring.
 
 
 
  
  Message sent using UebiMiau 2.7.10
 
 
 
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Re: [OSM-talk-nl] Nederlandse OSM flyer!

2008-08-25 Thread Henk Hoff

Goed werk!

Ik zou er ook graag wel wat willen hebben. 'k wacht wel tot een van de 
meetings in september..

Gr,
Henk


Floris Looijesteijn schreef:
 Ze zijn er!

 http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/Image:Dutch_openstreetmap_flyer.jpg

 Als enigzins laat OSM verjaardagskado meteen maar een speciale surprise:

 De eerste 10 mensen die reageren krijgen er gratis en voor niks een aantal
 opgestuurd!

 Stuur me je adres (niet via de mailinglist!) en hoeveel je er wilt hebben,
 (maximaal 10) en ik stuur je ze toe.


 Op de voorkant staat een algemeen verhaaltje en een screenshot van
 Potlatch. En op de achterkant een demonstratie van de mogelijkheden: De
 gebouwcontouren in Almere en de Carnavalskaart.

 Ik heb ze vooral gemaakt om bij je te hebben tijdens het mappen zodat je
 geinteresseerde mensen iets mee kunt geven. Daarnaast kunnen ze natuurlijk
 uitgedeeld worden op de OSM gebruikers dag/SoftwareFreedomDay.

 Groet,
 Floris


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Re: [OSM-talk-nl] Nederlandse OSM flyer!

2008-08-25 Thread Floris Looijesteijn

Ik heb hier inmiddels 7 enveloppen liggen die morgenochtend op de post gaan.
Daarnaast zijn er nog 4 mensen die ik ze in september persoonlijk overhandig.

Dus mocht je er toch nog graag een paar willen hebben... probeer het met
een zielig (of goed) verhaal, misschien trap ik er in.

Groet,
Floris

Floris Looijesteijn schreef:
 Ze zijn er!

 http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/Image:Dutch_openstreetmap_flyer.jpg

 Als enigzins laat OSM verjaardagskado meteen maar een speciale surprise:

 De eerste 10 mensen die reageren krijgen er gratis en voor niks een aantal
 opgestuurd!

 Stuur me je adres (niet via de mailinglist!) en hoeveel je er wilt hebben,
 (maximaal 10) en ik stuur je ze toe.


 Op de voorkant staat een algemeen verhaaltje en een screenshot van
 Potlatch. En op de achterkant een demonstratie van de mogelijkheden: De
 gebouwcontouren in Almere en de Carnavalskaart.

 Ik heb ze vooral gemaakt om bij je te hebben tijdens het mappen zodat je
 geinteresseerde mensen iets mee kunt geven. Daarnaast kunnen ze natuurlijk
 uitgedeeld worden op de OSM gebruikers dag/SoftwareFreedomDay.

 Groet,
 Floris


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Re: [OSM-talk-nl] Digitale Pioniers-academie

2008-08-25 Thread Jeroen Dekkers

Hoi,

Ik was vorige week bij DP om ons project af te ronden, dit is zeker
een goed idee en ik kreeg het idee dat ze ons op zich ook wel graag
daar willen zien, maar ik heb er zelf ook geen tijd voor. Let er op
dat je niet per se een bedrijf hoeft te starten, non-profit kan ook
prima...

Groeten,

Jeroen Dekkers

At Fri, 22 Aug 2008 16:02:12 +0200,
Martijn van Exel wrote:
 
 Ha allen,
 
 Ter info:
 
 Dinsdag sluit de inschrijving voor de digitale pioniers-academie, een  
 soortement broedplaats-workshopserie voor ondernemers-in-de-dop die  
 hun maatschappelijk geëngageerde plannetjes willen gaan realiseren.
 
 Misschien is er onder jullie wel iemand met mooie ideeën (ik!) - al  
 dan niet gerelateerd aan OSM - en tijd (niet ik :() - dan is dit een  
 mooie gelegenheid om met gelijkgestemden verder te komen, denk ik!
 
 http://www.dp-academie.nl/
 
 Groetjes,
 Martijn
 
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[OSM-talk-nl] OpenStreetResearch (ja nog ff ;)

2008-08-25 Thread Stefan de Konink

Hoi,


Ik kan het nu alvast op talk-nl aankondigen, er komt binnenkort een mooi 
uitgebreid verslag over De Geheime Alternative API Server.


...maar in de tussentijd op OpenStreetPhoto.org:

http://sift.openstreetphoto.org/matches/


Wat heb ik gedaan? Op wikipedia zijn verkeersborden te downloaden, ik 
heb er een aantal gepakt. Ik heb met m'n telefoon camera een foto 
gemaakt van een verkeersbord.

Het SIFT algoritme kan nu een tekst bestand maken met 'keypoints', dat 
blijft voor dat bestand altijd hetzelfde (behalve als je met parameters 
gaat tweaken).

Dus initieel maken we voor alle verkeersborden keypoint bestanden, zo 
ook voor iedere nieuwe geuploade afbeelding.


Ik heb een stukje code gemaakt wat de overeenkomsten kan bepalen tussen 
twee keypoint bestanden, en daar een plaatje van maakt (en ook het 
aantal overeenkomsten teruggeeft).


Practisch nut: stel nu dat we deze applicatie werkend krijgen zouden we 
een filmpje op kunnen nemen, sampelen op twee beelden per seconden. En 
vervolgens borden zoeken :)



Stefan

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Re: [OSM-talk-nl] OpenStreetResearch (ja nog ff ;)

2008-08-25 Thread Geert Schuring

 Nou Geert, kom maar op met je foto's ;)


Is er al een manier om foto's te uploaden naar OSP? Ik heb al 2 wijken
in Ede op de foto staan, plus een stuk van Drachten, en de snelweg
ernaartoe (bijna alle borden).

Geert.



On Tue, 2008-08-26 at 02:17 +0200, Stefan de Konink wrote:
 Hoi,
 
 
 Ik kan het nu alvast op talk-nl aankondigen, er komt binnenkort een mooi 
 uitgebreid verslag over De Geheime Alternative API Server.
 
 
 ...maar in de tussentijd op OpenStreetPhoto.org:
 
 http://sift.openstreetphoto.org/matches/
 
 
 Wat heb ik gedaan? Op wikipedia zijn verkeersborden te downloaden, ik 
 heb er een aantal gepakt. Ik heb met m'n telefoon camera een foto 
 gemaakt van een verkeersbord.
 
 Het SIFT algoritme kan nu een tekst bestand maken met 'keypoints', dat 
 blijft voor dat bestand altijd hetzelfde (behalve als je met parameters 
 gaat tweaken).
 
 Dus initieel maken we voor alle verkeersborden keypoint bestanden, zo 
 ook voor iedere nieuwe geuploade afbeelding.
 
 
 Ik heb een stukje code gemaakt wat de overeenkomsten kan bepalen tussen 
 twee keypoint bestanden, en daar een plaatje van maakt (en ook het 
 aantal overeenkomsten teruggeeft).
 
 
 Practisch nut: stel nu dat we deze applicatie werkend krijgen zouden we 
 een filmpje op kunnen nemen, sampelen op twee beelden per seconden. En 
 vervolgens borden zoeken :)
 
 
 
 Stefan
 
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Re: [Talk-tr] Şehir içi ayrılmış yollar

2008-08-25 Thread cagri coltekin

Merhabalar,

On Fri, Aug 22, 2008 at 05:37:02PM +0300, Ekrem SEREN wrote:
 Merhaba,
 
 Birkaç gün önce OSM'den Bursa'nın çok az haritalandığını görünce
 biraz katkıda bulunmak istedim. Bursa'yı çizmeye başladım.

Turkiye'nin durumu genel olarak pek parlak degil. Ama yavas yavas
katilimci arttikca bizim de guzel haritalarimiz olacak.  Bursa
sekillenmeye baslamis bile :), yapan(lar)in ellerine saglik.

 Bir sorum var; Şehir içindeki ayrılmış (bulvar ve bazı caddeler)
 yolları çizerken çift çizgi ile mi çizsek daha iyi olur yoksa tek mi?
 
 Çift çizdiğim bir yolda render edildikten sonra isimlendirme kötü görünüyor.
 Yolun ortalarına doğru her iki çizgi için bir isim render etmiş.
 
 Örnek: 
 http://www.openstreetmap.com/?lat=40.18917lon=29.05463zoom=17layers=B00FTF

Eger elimde yeterli veri varsa, ben genellikle ayrilmis yollari
ayri ayri cizmeyi tercih ediyorum.

Renderer sorunlarini simdilik ihmal etmek. Yollari girerken
osmarender icin 'bu yolun adini yaz/yazma gibi bazi ipuclari
vermek mumkun. Ama rendererler sonuclanmis degil, hala
gelistiriliyorlar.  Dolayisiyla, benim onerim arada bir cikan
renderer sonunclarini ihmal edip, olabildigince veri girmek.

Kolay gelsin,
-- 
cagri

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Re: [Talk-de] Name oder Operator in Tags

2008-08-25 Thread André Reichelt


Bernd Wurst schrieb:
Hausnummern sind wichtig im Datenbestand für Routing oder spezielle 
(interaktive?) Karten. Aber auf einer simplen 2D-Karte muss man IMHO nicht 
alle erkennen.


Ich könnte mir gut vorstellen, dass man eines Tages einen zusätzlichen 
Layer hat, mit dem man Hausnummern ein- und ausblenden kann. Das könnte 
man doch mit den dynamischen POIs verbinden, oder?




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[Talk-de] Render-Fehler?

2008-08-25 Thread Alexander Schulze

Hallo,

ist das ein Render-Fehler und mache ich was falsch?

http://www.informationfreeway.org/?lat=52.02490054868131lon=13.230434813026589zoom=13layers=B000F000F

Außenherum ist Wald und innendrin nen Truppenübungsplatz.
Ich dachte deshalb, dass ich eine Relation type=multipolygon anlege und 
dann den Wald als outer und den Truppenübungsplatz als inner deklariere. 
   Allerdings entstehen dann solche Fehlstellen. Hab ich jetzt schon 
mehrfach beobachtet.

schönen Gruß
Alex

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Re: [Talk-de] Render-Fehler?

2008-08-25 Thread Dirk-Lüder Kreie


Alexander Schulze schrieb:

Hallo,

ist das ein Render-Fehler und mache ich was falsch?

http://www.informationfreeway.org/?lat=52.02490054868131lon=13.230434813026589zoom=13layers=B000F000F

Außenherum ist Wald und innendrin nen Truppenübungsplatz.
Ich dachte deshalb, dass ich eine Relation type=multipolygon anlege und 
dann den Wald als outer und den Truppenübungsplatz als inner deklariere. 
   Allerdings entstehen dann solche Fehlstellen. Hab ich jetzt schon 
mehrfach beobachtet.


Fehler im Beziercurvehinting. Falls du dich ein bisschen mit Perl, SVG 
und Bezierkurven auskennst, schau dir den source mal an, fixes welcome.


http://svn.openstreetmap.org/applications/rendering/tilesAtHome/lines2curves.pl

--

Dirk-Lüder Deelkar Kreie
Bremen - 53.0952°N 8.8652°E



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Re: [Talk-de] Mapnik: Schriftart wechseln / Unicode Problem mit Ethiopic

2008-08-25 Thread Dirk-Lüder Kreie


André Reichelt schrieb:
Hm, über das Problem mit den Schriftzeichen habe ich erst letztens 
gelesen und da wurde auch die von dir empfohlene Schriftart zur Lösung 
des Problems vorgeschlagen. Ich denke, wenn die aktuelle Schriftart 
tatsächlih Probleme mit gewissen Schriftzeichen haben sollte, sollten 
wir in jedem Fall eine Andrer verwenden - schon alleine aus Gründen der 
Gleichberechtigung.


Viel Spaß beim Suchen eines Fonts der UTF8-Complete ist, und auch noch 
frei ist.


Die Lösung liegt momentan eher in der Richtung, dass man passende 
Fallback-Fonts vordefinieren können sollte. Also statt einem für alles 
eine vorgegebene Gruppe an Fonts, die dann (hoffentlich) alles abdeckt, 
was man so an (Schrift-)Zeichen braucht.


--

Dirk-Lüder Deelkar Kreie
Bremen - 53.0952°N 8.8652°E



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Re: [Talk-de] Regionale OSM Mailingliste für Bayern

2008-08-25 Thread Sven Anders

Am Freitag, 22. August 2008 11:54 schrieb Guenther Meyer:
 Am Donnerstag 21 August 2008 schrieb Andreas Hubel:
  Hi,
 
  könnten wir nicht eine Regionale OSM Mailingliste für Bayern einrichten?

 ich weiss nicht, ich bin eigentlich eher gegen eine weitere
 zersplitterung... wichtig waere dann halt, dass dort nur lokale sachen
 ausgemacht/besprochen werden, und allgemeine dinge auf der talk-liste
 bleiben...

 es gibt uebrigens wohl schon eine niederbayern-liste, vielleicht kann man
 di auf bayern ausweiten...


Ich hatte das beim Anlegen der Liste mit  dem  Mailinglistenverwalter für 
Niederbayern diskutiert. Dieser schrieb mir damals, das er lieber einen nicht 
so großen Bereich haben möchte, damit weniger Traffic auf der Liste ist und 
sich die Leute trauen darauf zu schreiben.

Ich denke vielleicht wäre eine  [EMAIL PROTECTED] Liste nicht 
schlecht auf der nur Mails zu Mappingpartys und Mappertreffen drauf kommen, 
aber eben keine Diskussion.

Gruß
Sven

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Re: [Talk-de] Pressebericht com Magazin

2008-08-25 Thread Sven Anders

Am Dienstag, 19. August 2008 20:05 schrieb André Reichelt:
 Sven Anders schrieb:
  Im Online-Shop www.com-magazin.de  ist diese Ausgabe noch nicht
  verfügbar.

 Wird der Artikel denn kostenfrei online erscheinen?

Ich vermute nicht. Ich hatte mit der Redaktion bislang keinen Kontakt. Das 
einzige was passiert war, ist das ich eine Zeitung mit einem Formbrief 
bekommen haben, das über mein Unternehmen/Projekt etwas auf Seite ... steht.

Gruß
Sven

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Re: [Talk-de] Kantenglättung

2008/8/25 André Reichelt [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
 Dirk Stöcker schrieb:

 Das ist eine Java-Funktion, die man nur an- oder ausschalten kann.

 Aberkonfigurierbar ist das nicht? Könnte man villeicht selber was
 entwickeln, das ähnliche Ergebnise liefert?

 Wird das eigentlich aktuell Hardwareseitig oder SOftwareseitig gerendert?


ganz schoen krasser Vorschlag, André. Gibt IMHO momentan noch ein paar
andere Sachen, die wichtiger sind als Kantenglaettung. Einige. Ich
wuerde sogar mal behaupten, man kann grundsaetzlich darauf verzichten,
weil es einfach zu viele Ressourcen benoetigt, die man lieber fuer
anderes (z.B: groesserer bearbeitbarer Bereich) einsetzen sollte. Wenn
Du aber Lust drauf hast, und es Dir zutraust, ein hard- oder
softwareseitiges Antialiasing (wird wohl plattformunabhaengig nur
letzteres gehen) zu implementieren, nur zu.

Ich finde zwar diesen allgemeinen Ruf nach selbermachen statt
diskuttieren manchmal auch ein bisschen uebertrieben, aber hier
scheint es mir doch angebracht...

Martin
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Re: [Talk-de] Abbiegeregeln und Spitzkurven

Am 25. August 2008 07:46 schrieb Andreas Pothe
[EMAIL PROTECTED]:
 Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
 warum sollte das nicht möglich sein? Es ist m.E. sogar der
 Standardfall, dass man bei einer baulich getrennten Straße an den
 Stellen, wo die Trennung aufgehoben wird, wenden kann.

 In welchem Land? In Deutschland jedenfalls nicht.



innerorts / ausserorts? Jedenfalls sind weder OSM noch die ueblichen
derzeitigen Router auf Deutschland beschraenkt. Woher sollte die
Routingsoftware denn Deiner Ansicht nach wissen, dass man an diesem
gemeinsamen Node (=Kreuzung) nicht von einer auf die andere Spur/Seite
wechseln kann? Nur am Winkel kann es jedenfalls nicht gehen, weil es
auch solche spitzwinkligen Kreuzungen gibt, wo man durchaus fahren
darf.

Martin
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Re: [Talk-de] Name oder Operator in Tags

Am 25. August 2008 06:49 schrieb Bernd Wurst [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
 Hallo.

 Am Montag, 25. August 2008 schrieb Martin Koppenhoefer:
 Mein Vorschlag: kleine schwarze Nummern ohne
 Kreis und Füllung drumrum. Wenn das Anklang findet, würde ich auch nen
 kleinen Patch dazu einreichen.

 Überzeugt mich nicht.
 Das wäre dann ganz normaler Text, den man nicht von vielen anderen normalen
 Texten unterscheiden kann (Straßennamen, Ortsnamen, Stadtteilnamen).


das wuerde man ueber die Schriftgroesse erkennen. Die waere nochmal
deutlich kleiner als die Strassennamen (z.B. 50%; bzw. muesste ich/man
da ein bisschen rumprobieren was Groesse und Lesbarkeit angeht). Der
Vorteil ist u.a., dass man gerade *nicht* ein neues grafisches Element
einsetzt. Dadurch wuerde die Karte in Bereichen mit Hausnummern
deutlich aufgeraeumter. Das kann man doch in der derzeitigen Form
nicht guten Gewissens drucken. Seht Euch mal einen normalen Stadtplan
an, dort wird es i.d.R. genauso gemacht, wenn die Hausnummern
ueberhaupt dargestellt werden (normalerweise nur gelegentlich, nicht
alle Haeuser).

Martin
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Re: [Talk-de] Draisinenstrecken

2008-08-25 Thread Andreas Labres

Johann H. Addicks wrote:
 Ich würde mir wünschen, wenn light_railway nicht Normalspur bis 
 Park-Kleinbahn umfassen würde.

Ad Park-Kleinbahn: narrow_gauge gibt's wohl auch noch?

Unter light_railway würde ich mir hier im Wiener Raum die Badnerbahn vorstellen,
die innerstädtisch als eine Art Tram verkehrt, obwohl sie überland als Vollbahn
ausgebaut ist (und auch mit normalen Güterwagen befahren wird).

Servus, Andreas

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Re: [Talk-de] Mit jeder JOSM Version wirds schlimmer

2008-08-25 Thread René Falk

Am Montag, 25. August 2008 schrieb André Reichelt:

 Naja, genug abgeschweift. Versuch mal, die Einstellungen
 anzupassen, dann wirst Du auch insgessamt mehr Freude mit Deiner
 Maus haben.


Nein, mehr Freude werde ich dann nicht habe.
Meine rechte Hand ist in ihren Bewegungsmöglichkeiten und ihrer Kraft 
sehr stark eingeschränkt. Damit ich noch einigermaßen vernünftig mit 
der Maus arbeiten kann, muss ich die Schiebereien auf sehr kurze 
Strecken reduzieren, sonst fängt es nach kurzer Zeit zu schmerzen an. 
Einmal quer über den Desktop sollte daher nicht mehr als ca. 3-4 cm  
Strecke mit der Maus brauchen. Dementsprechend empfindlich muss die 
Maus eingestellt sein. Da bleibt es natürlich nicht aus, das bei 
Betätigung der Maustaste mal ein Wackler geschieht. Es ist auch keine 
Lösung Ellbogen oder Schulter stärker mit in die Bewegung 
einzubeziehen, da fängt man sich schnell das Äquivalent eines 
Tennisarms ein, und das kann ich nun wirklich nicht auch noch 
gebrauchen. Die linke Hand brauch ich für die Tastatur, da es mit 
rechts in eine ziemliche Quälerei ausartet. Jeder Drei-Tasten-Druck 
ist ausgesprochen unangenehm, weswegen ich solche Kombinationen so 
weit wie möglich abändere. Letztendlich sind meine Konfigurationen 
mit Hilfe von Ärzten und Therapeuten erarbeitet worden, ich mache das 
also nicht willkürlich.

Mal davon abgesehen, soll es auch ein paar Leute geben, die Mobil 
unterwegs sind und mit JOSM arbeiten. Ich denke mal, das da 
Klick+Move ebenfalls nicht überall auf Begeisterung stoßen wird.

Grüße

René

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Re: [Talk-de] Bayern: Radwege (ncn/rcn) Via Julia, Via Bavarica Tyrolensis und M-Wasserweg

2008-08-25 Thread Toni Erdmann

[EMAIL PROTECTED] schrieb:
 Hi Toni!
 
 Via Julia eingetragen
 relation 29350
 Eintrag im Wiki folgt, wenn ich reinkomme (derzeit sehr langsam).
 
 Eintrag im Wiki habe ich gerade schon gemacht. (Hoffe, das war Dir recht.)
 
 Jetzt habe ich nur das Problem, dass man bei JOSM nicht einfach eine
 Relation mit seinen Membern (und ggfs. der Umgebung) laden kann. Habe
 jedenfalls keinen Weg gefunden. :-(
 
 Um also an anderer Stelle (z. B. westlich des Chiemsees) Member der
 Relation 29350 hinzufügen zu können, muss ich zuerst eines Deiner Via
 Julia Teilstücke laden, um an die Relation zu kommen.
 
 Oder hat da jemand einen besseren Weg?
 Wie sucht, findet und ladet Ihr Relationen in JOSM?

Hallo Leupi,

ja, über das Problem habe ich auch nachgedacht.

Evtl. sollte man (werde ich) eine URL zum Download einer ganz kleinen
Area in JOSM (copypaste) mit angeben. Nach Download dieser Area
müsste dann das Hinzufügen einfacher gehen.

http://www.openstreetmap.org/index.html?mlat=47.98266mlon=11.6711zoom=14

Gruß,
Toni

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Re: [Talk-de] Mit jeder JOSM Version wirds schlimmer

Am 25. August 2008 10:31 schrieb René Falk [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
 Am Montag, 25. August 2008 schrieb André Reichelt:

 Naja, genug abgeschweift. Versuch mal, die Einstellungen
 anzupassen, dann wirst Du auch insgessamt mehr Freude mit Deiner
 Maus haben.


 Nein, mehr Freude werde ich dann nicht habe.
 Meine rechte Hand ist in ihren Bewegungsmöglichkeiten und ihrer Kraft
 sehr stark eingeschränkt. Damit ich noch einigermaßen vernünftig mit
 der Maus arbeiten kann, muss ich die Schiebereien auf sehr kurze
 Strecken reduzieren, sonst fängt es nach kurzer Zeit zu schmerzen an.
 Einmal quer über den Desktop sollte daher nicht mehr als ca. 3-4 cm
 Strecke mit der Maus brauchen. Dementsprechend empfindlich muss die
 Maus eingestellt sein. Da bleibt es natürlich nicht aus, das bei
 Betätigung der Maustaste mal ein Wackler geschieht. Es ist auch keine
 Lösung Ellbogen oder Schulter stärker mit in die Bewegung
 einzubeziehen, da fängt man sich schnell das Äquivalent eines
 Tennisarms ein, und das kann ich nun wirklich nicht auch noch
 gebrauchen. Die linke Hand brauch ich für die Tastatur, da es mit
 rechts in eine ziemliche Quälerei ausartet. Jeder Drei-Tasten-Druck
 ist ausgesprochen unangenehm, weswegen ich solche Kombinationen so
 weit wie möglich abändere. Letztendlich sind meine Konfigurationen
 mit Hilfe von Ärzten und Therapeuten erarbeitet worden, ich mache das
 also nicht willkürlich.

 Mal davon abgesehen, soll es auch ein paar Leute geben, die Mobil
 unterwegs sind und mit JOSM arbeiten. Ich denke mal, das da
 Klick+Move ebenfalls nicht überall auf Begeisterung stoßen wird.

 Grüße

 René


eine Loesung koennte wie bereits in einer vorigen Mail angedeutet
sein, dass man die Variable fuer die Mindeststrecke erhoeht, die
erforderlich ist, um ein Drag als Drag zu werten. Vielleicht kann Dirk
uns hier helfen, indem er sagt, welchen Wert man (ueber Einstein)
anpassen muss. Wenn es so eine Einstellmoeglichkeit nicht gibt, wird
Dir wohl nichts anderes uebrig bleiben, als die Funktion zu
deaktivieren (das geht ja in jedem Fall schon).

Martin
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Re: [Talk-de] Render-Fehler?

 http://www.informationfreeway.org/?lat=52.02490054868131lon=13.230434813026589zoom=13layers=B000F000F

 Außenherum ist Wald und innendrin nen Truppenübungsplatz.
 Ich dachte deshalb, dass ich eine Relation type=multipolygon anlege und
 dann den Wald als outer und den Truppenübungsplatz als inner deklariere.
 Allerdings entstehen dann solche Fehlstellen. Hab ich jetzt schon mehrfach
 beobachtet.

 Fehler im Beziercurvehinting. Falls du dich ein bisschen mit Perl, SVG und
 Bezierkurven auskennst, schau dir den source mal an, fixes welcome.

 http://svn.openstreetmap.org/applications/rendering/tilesAtHome/lines2curves.pl

In der Form hab ich den Fehler noch nicht gesehen. Es sieht so aus,
als werde der inner gar nicht gerundet. Bis jetzt war das Problem ja
eher, dass die beiden Kurven nicht deckungsgleich waren.

Grüsse
Raphael

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Re: [Talk-de] Kantenglättung

2008-08-25 Thread jh

Hi,

André Reichelt schrieb:
 Dirk Stöcker schrieb:
 Kam hier bestimmt schon zum vierten Mal die Anfrage. Ja. Siehe 
 Einstellungen Anti-Aliasing. War defaultmäßig an - ab jetzt 
 defaultmäßig aus. Macht wohl doch zu viele Probleme.
 
 Ist eigentlich geplant, das zu verbessern? Generell finde ich die Sache 
 ja sehr geschickt, aber es bremst eben extrem und die Texte erscheinen 
 auch völlig unlesbar. Aber für eine Überarbeitung des ganzen wäre ich 
 auf jeden Fall.
 
Grundsätzlich: das Antialiasing lässt sich per Präferenz aus- und 
einschalten. Was die Textlesbarkeit betrifft, hängt es wohl von diversen 
Faktoren (Bildschirm, Auflösung) sowie persönlichen Präferenzen ab, ob 
es als besser oder schlechter empfunden wird.
Darüber hinaus müsste man mal zur Diskussion stellen, ob es nicht 
sinnvoll ist, (a) die Texte größer darzustellen, bzw. die Größe 
konfigurierbar zu machen und (b) das Textantialiasign separat steuerbar 
zu machen.

Mir ist nicht so ganz klar, in welchen Konstellationen das langsamer 
wird. Meine Tests unter Java 1.6/XP haben keinen nennenswerten 
Unterschied ergeben. Wenn bekannt ist, in welchen Konstellationen es 
langsam ist, kann man evtl. eine Heuristik bauen, die das per Default 
entsprechend ein- oder ausschaltet.

Gruesse
Joerg


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Re: [Talk-de] Mit jeder JOSM Version wirds schlimmer

 eine Loesung koennte wie bereits in einer vorigen Mail angedeutet
 sein, dass man die Variable fuer die Mindeststrecke erhoeht, die
 erforderlich ist, um ein Drag als Drag zu werten. Vielleicht kann Dirk
 uns hier helfen, indem er sagt, welchen Wert man (ueber Einstein)
 anpassen muss. Wenn es so eine Einstellmoeglichkeit nicht gibt, wird
 Dir wohl nichts anderes uebrig bleiben, als die Funktion zu
 deaktivieren (das geht ja in jedem Fall schon).

edit.initial-move-treshhold

Ist auch überhaupt nicht kompliziert dass selbst nachzusehen.

Grüsse
Raphael

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Re: [Talk-de] Mit jeder JOSM Version wirds schlimmer

2008/8/25 Raphael Studer [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
 eine Loesung koennte wie bereits in einer vorigen Mail angedeutet
 sein, dass man die Variable fuer die Mindeststrecke erhoeht, die
 erforderlich ist, um ein Drag als Drag zu werten. Vielleicht kann Dirk
 uns hier helfen, indem er sagt, welchen Wert man (ueber Einstein)
 anpassen muss. Wenn es so eine Einstellmoeglichkeit nicht gibt, wird
 Dir wohl nichts anderes uebrig bleiben, als die Funktion zu
 deaktivieren (das geht ja in jedem Fall schon).

 edit.initial-move-treshhold

 Ist auch überhaupt nicht kompliziert, das selbst nachzusehen.

 Grüsse
 Raphael


Danke Raphael. Uebrigens mal an viele hier: wenn die Wogen nicht
gleich so hochgehen, wird das Leben ploetzlich relaxt und angenehm.
Einfach ein bisschen ruhig bleiben, mit seiner Wortwahl Respekt fuer
die anderen zum Ausdruck bringen, konstruktiv denken und nicht wild
mit Beschimpfungen und Gemaule durch die Gegend schiessen. Bringt fuer
alle am meisten.

Martin
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Re: [Talk-de] Render-Fehler?

2008-08-25 Thread Alexander Schulze

Hi,

kann das gleiche gleich nochmal anbieten.

http://www.informationfreeway.org/?lat=51.98436784118599lon=13.135559736301165zoom=17layers=B000F000F

aber sieht doch eher so aus, dass der Renderer krampfhaft versucht ne 
Kurve zu zeichnen, wo gar keine ist. Oder?

Alex

Raphael Studer schrieb:
 http://www.informationfreeway.org/?lat=52.02490054868131lon=13.230434813026589zoom=13layers=B000F000F

 Außenherum ist Wald und innendrin nen Truppenübungsplatz.
 Ich dachte deshalb, dass ich eine Relation type=multipolygon anlege und
 dann den Wald als outer und den Truppenübungsplatz als inner deklariere.
 Allerdings entstehen dann solche Fehlstellen. Hab ich jetzt schon mehrfach
 beobachtet.
 Fehler im Beziercurvehinting. Falls du dich ein bisschen mit Perl, SVG und
 Bezierkurven auskennst, schau dir den source mal an, fixes welcome.

 http://svn.openstreetmap.org/applications/rendering/tilesAtHome/lines2curves.pl
 
 In der Form hab ich den Fehler noch nicht gesehen. Es sieht so aus,
 als werde der inner gar nicht gerundet. Bis jetzt war das Problem ja
 eher, dass die beiden Kurven nicht deckungsgleich waren.
 
 Grüsse
 Raphael
 
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Re: [Talk-de] Draisinenstrecken

2008-08-25 Thread Heiko Jacobs

Johann H. Addicks [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Heiko Jacobs schrieb:
 Die S-Bahnen, sofern weitgehend unabhaengig vom Restbahnverkehr,
 separat zu taggen, ist aber dennoch sinnvoll...
 
 Also wenn die Tret-Draisinen railway bekommen, jedoch von BR143
 befahre Trassen aber als light_railway getagt werden, dann stimmt
 irgendwas nicht.

Wie gesagt: Es ist wohl ein Uebersetzungsfehler, der zu Kuddelmuddel
insbes. in .de fuehrte... Bei Gelegenheit mus man sich ueberlegen,
wie man das gerade biegt, aber dazu will ich erstmal internationaler
recherchieren...
Welche S-Bahn meinst Du denn? Die, die mir in den Sinn kommen und
eigene restbahnunabhaengige Anlagen haben, fahren alle mit Triebwagen.
Ich kenne aber nicht die Daten aller S-Bahnen auswendig mitsamt
Streckenstatus...

   MfG   Heiko Jacobs   Z!   IRCnet Mueck
-- 
Douglasstr. 30, D-76133 Karlsruhe   fon +49 721 24069 fax 2030542
Geo-Bild Ing.b?ro  geo-bild-KA.de   Internet-Service auch-rein.de
Couleurstud. Infos  cousin.de   VCD, umweltverkehr KA umverka.de


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Re: [Talk-de] Mit jeder JOSM Version wirds schlimmer

 Danke Raphael. Uebrigens mal an viele hier: wenn die Wogen nicht
 gleich so hochgehen, wird das Leben ploetzlich relaxt und angenehm.
 Einfach ein bisschen ruhig bleiben, mit seiner Wortwahl Respekt fuer
 die anderen zum Ausdruck bringen, konstruktiv denken und nicht wild
 mit Beschimpfungen und Gemaule durch die Gegend schiessen. Bringt fuer
 alle am meisten.

Meine Wortwahl war sicherlich nicht optimal und dafür möchte ich mich
entschuldigen.

Ich habe mich nur daran gestört, dass du direkt Dirk angesprochen
hast. Dies erweckt für mich den Eindruck als wäre JOSM inzwischen so
kompliziert, dass nur noch Dirk versteht wie er funktioniert und er
dann auch an allem Schuld wäre wenn er nicht funktioniert. Womit wir
dann bei den von dir beschriebenen Beschimpfungen und Gemaule
währen.

Grüsse
Raphael

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Re: [Talk-de] Draisinenstrecken

Moin,

 Also wenn die Tret-Draisinen railway bekommen, jedoch von BR143
 befahre Trassen aber als light_railway getagt werden, dann stimmt
 irgendwas nicht.

auch hier geht es ja darum, dass wir mit einem Tag verschiedene Dinge 
auszudrücken versuchen, beispielsweise um was für eine Gleisanlage handelt es 
sich (narrow_gauge) und was verkehrt darauf (rail, light_rail). Speziell die 
letzte Frage lässt sich nicht immer eindeutig beantworten.

Solange wir das nicht ausdetaillieren können (was früher oder später sowohl 
bei Straßen als auch Bahnen kommen wird), muss man sich halt einen möglichst 
sinnvollen Tag ausdenken.

IMO gilt daher, dass jemand, der sowas mappen möchte, die Strecke halt so 
auszeichnen sollte, damit später ein anderer noch weiß, was gemeint war. 
Beispiele:

railway=draisine (würde wohl momentan nicht gerendert)

railway=rail
disused=yes
draisine=yes

highway=rail
draisine=designated

Die ist auch ein schönes Beispiel dafür, warum ich immer darauf hinweise dass 
Map Features nicht die Bibel ist.

Beste Grüße,

ce


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Re: [Talk-de] Mit jeder JOSM Version wirds schlimmer

2008-08-25 Thread Dirk Stöcker


On Mon, 25 Aug 2008, Raphael Studer wrote:


Ich habe mich nur daran gestört, dass du direkt Dirk angesprochen
hast. Dies erweckt für mich den Eindruck als wäre JOSM inzwischen so
kompliziert, dass nur noch Dirk versteht wie er funktioniert und er
dann auch an allem Schuld wäre wenn er nicht funktioniert. Womit wir
dann bei den von dir beschriebenen Beschimpfungen und Gemaule
währen.


Wer sagt denn, dass ich verstehe, wie JOSM funktioniert. Also ich bestimmt 
nicht.


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Re: [Talk-de] Render-Fehler?

 kann das gleiche gleich nochmal anbieten.

 http://www.informationfreeway.org/?lat=51.98436784118599lon=13.135559736301165zoom=17layers=B000F000F

 aber sieht doch eher so aus, dass der Renderer krampfhaft versucht ne
 Kurve zu zeichnen, wo gar keine ist. Oder?

Richtig. Sobald zwischen 2 geraden ein bestimmter Winkel
unterschritten wird, macht der Rendere Bezier Kurven daraus.

AFAIR macht der Renderer in einer solchen konstellation 2 Linien aus
einem Way. Je einen fürs Loch und für die Fläche darin.
Vielleicht bringt man in dazu dies zu unterlassen.

Ein Workaround wäre wenn man Löcher die einen Inhalt (nicht nur eine
Lichtung im Wald) haben beim zeichnen der äusseren Fläche einfach
ignoriert und dann die Innere Fläche darüber zeichnet.

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Re: [Talk-de] Mit jeder JOSM Version wirds schlimmer

Am 25. August 2008 11:39 schrieb Raphael Studer [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
 Danke Raphael. Uebrigens mal an viele hier: wenn die Wogen nicht
 gleich so hochgehen, wird das Leben ploetzlich relaxt und angenehm.
 Einfach ein bisschen ruhig bleiben, mit seiner Wortwahl Respekt fuer
 die anderen zum Ausdruck bringen, konstruktiv denken und nicht wild
 mit Beschimpfungen und Gemaule durch die Gegend schiessen. Bringt fuer
 alle am meisten.

 Meine Wortwahl war sicherlich nicht optimal und dafür möchte ich mich
 entschuldigen.

 Ich habe mich nur daran gestört, dass du direkt Dirk angesprochen
 hast. Dies erweckt für mich den Eindruck als wäre JOSM inzwischen so
 kompliziert, dass nur noch Dirk versteht wie er funktioniert und er
 dann auch an allem Schuld wäre wenn er nicht funktioniert. Womit wir
 dann bei den von dir beschriebenen Beschimpfungen und Gemaule
 währen.

 Grüsse
 Raphael


Ich hatte meinen Text mehr als auf Dich auf die vorigen Posts (und
andere Threads) bezogen. Wollte niemandem eine Schuld fuer irgendwas
geben und habe nur deshalb Dirk direkt angesprochen, weil er das
feature programmiert hat und hier mit der Bitte um feedback
vorgestellt. Daher dachte ich, dass er am besten weiss, wie man es
machen kann.

Ich bin uebrigens gerade dabei, mich ein bisschen einzulesen:
http://de.wikibooks.org/wiki/Java_Standard:_Erste_Schritte

aber fuer Nichtprogrammierer ist es weniger trivial, solche Variablen
aus dem Code zu ziehen, wie man sich als Profi vermutlich vorstellen
kann. Mal sehen, bald weiss ich hoffentlich mehr.  ;-)

Martin
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Re: [Talk-de] Kantenglättung

2008-08-25 Thread Dirk Stöcker


On Mon, 25 Aug 2008, jh wrote:


Darüber hinaus müsste man mal zur Diskussion stellen, ob es nicht
sinnvoll ist, (a) die Texte größer darzustellen, bzw. die Größe
konfigurierbar zu machen und (b) das Textantialiasign separat steuerbar
zu machen.


Beides. Seit ich meinen neuen Laptop habe stört mich die 
JOSM-Schriftgröße (nicht nur im Display, sondern auch Menüs,...).


Statt 1024x800 sind es jetzt 1680x1050 und immer noch 15 Zoll, da ist 
eine etwas größere Schrift überall notwendig.


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Re: [Talk-de] Render-Fehler?

Am 25. August 2008 11:47 schrieb Raphael Studer [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
 kann das gleiche gleich nochmal anbieten.

 http://www.informationfreeway.org/?lat=51.98436784118599lon=13.135559736301165zoom=17layers=B000F000F

 aber sieht doch eher so aus, dass der Renderer krampfhaft versucht ne
 Kurve zu zeichnen, wo gar keine ist. Oder?

 Richtig. Sobald zwischen 2 geraden ein bestimmter Winkel
 unterschritten wird, macht der Rendere Bezier Kurven daraus.

 AFAIR macht der Renderer in einer solchen konstellation 2 Linien aus
 einem Way. Je einen fürs Loch und für die Fläche darin.
 Vielleicht bringt man in dazu dies zu unterlassen.

 Ein Workaround wäre wenn man Löcher die einen Inhalt (nicht nur eine
 Lichtung im Wald) haben beim zeichnen der äusseren Fläche einfach
 ignoriert und dann die Innere Fläche darüber zeichnet.


ja, die Luecken wuerde man damit los, wobei das in dem Beispiel noch
nicht der Weissheit letzter Schluss waere: die innere Flaeche sollte
dort ja keine Rundung haben. Seltsam ist es aber doch, dass er in
einem Fall (innen) eine Kurve vermutet (und das bei noch annaehernd 90
Grad), waehrend er im anderen Fall (aussen) davon Abstand nimmt.

Martin
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Re: [Talk-de] Abbiegeregeln und Spitzkurven

Moin,

 warum sollte das nicht möglich sein? Es ist m.E. sogar der
 Standardfall, dass man bei einer baulich getrennten Straße an den
 Stellen, wo die Trennung aufgehoben wird, wenden kann.

bei mir war mel einer am Stand, der sich Routing mit Navit hat zeigen lassen. 
Er interessierte sich für eine Bundesstraßenkreuzung bei Ettlingen. Zwei 
getrennte Fahrspuren vereinigen sich. Direkt nach der Vereinigung geht links 
eine Abfahrt weg. Rein von der Beschilderung und dem baulichen Zustand her 
dürfte man hier sogar links abbiegen, was sich aber aufgrund der 
Verkehrssituation verbietet. Stattdessen nutzt man die dafür vorgesehene 
Abbiegespur rechts weg.

Navit erkannte aber wohl, dass Linksabbiegen die kürzere Alternative sei :-) . 
Insofern mag eine Art Regel bei Vereinigung zweier Fahrspuren höherer 
Straßen außerorts noch ein paar Meter zuwarten, bevor Linksabbiegen erlaubt 
ist nicht die dümmste sein. Allerdings kann Navit anhand unserer Daten 
derzeit nicht erkennen, ob eine Straße inner- oder außerorts ist. Für's 
Routing wäre das eine äußerst interessante Info.

Beste Grüße,

ce


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Re: [Talk-de] Mit jeder JOSM Version wirds schlimmer

2008-08-25 Thread René Falk

Am Montag, 25. August 2008 schrieb Raphael Studer:

 edit.initial-move-treshhold

 Ist auch überhaupt nicht kompliziert dass selbst nachzusehen.

Ist das schon drin oder muss man das noch hinzufügen? Einstein kennt 
das bei mir nicht.

Grüße

René


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Re: [Talk-de] Mit jeder JOSM Version wirds schlimmer

2008/8/25 René Falk [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
 Am Montag, 25. August 2008 schrieb Raphael Studer:

 edit.initial-move-treshhold

 Ist auch überhaupt nicht kompliziert dass selbst nachzusehen.

 Ist das schon drin oder muss man das noch hinzufügen? Einstein kennt
 das bei mir nicht.

 Grüße

 René



wenn es drin waere, wuerde er es kennen (oder was meinst Du?), daher
musst Du einen neuen Wert machen mit edit.initial-move-treshhold und
dort ggf. etwas experimentieren, bis die Einstellungen fuer Deine
Maus-Einstellungen passen.

Martin
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Re: [Talk-de] Mit jeder JOSM Version wirds schlimmer

2008-08-25 Thread René Falk

Am Montag, 25. August 2008 schrieb René Falk:
 Am Montag, 25. August 2008 schrieb Raphael Studer:
  edit.initial-move-treshhold
 
  Ist auch überhaupt nicht kompliziert dass selbst nachzusehen.

 Ist das schon drin oder muss man das noch hinzufügen? Einstein
 kennt das bei mir nicht.

Hat sich erledigt, habe es im englischsprachigen Wiki gefunden.

Grüße

René


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Re: [Talk-de] Abbiegeregeln und Spitzkurven

Am 25. August 2008 12:09 schrieb Marcus Wolschon [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
 Am 25.08.08 schrieb Christoph Eckert [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
 Moin,

 warum sollte das nicht möglich sein? Es ist m.E. sogar der
 Standardfall, dass man bei einer baulich getrennten Straße an den
 Stellen, wo die Trennung aufgehoben wird, wenden kann.

 bei mir war mel einer am Stand, der sich Routing mit Navit hat zeigen
 lassen.
 Er interessierte sich für eine Bundesstraßenkreuzung bei Ettlingen. Zwei
 getrennte Fahrspuren vereinigen sich. Direkt nach der Vereinigung geht links
 eine Abfahrt weg. Rein von der Beschilderung und dem baulichen Zustand her
 dürfte man hier sogar links abbiegen, was sich aber aufgrund der
 Verkehrssituation verbietet. Stattdessen nutzt man die dafür vorgesehene
 Abbiegespur rechts weg.

 Navit erkannte aber wohl, dass Linksabbiegen die kürzere Alternative sei :-)
 .
 Insofern mag eine Art Regel bei Vereinigung zweier Fahrspuren höherer
 Straßen außerorts noch ein paar Meter zuwarten, bevor Linksabbiegen erlaubt
 ist nicht die dümmste sein. Allerdings kann Navit anhand unserer Daten
 derzeit nicht erkennen, ob eine Straße inner- oder außerorts ist. Für's
 Routing wäre das eine äußerst interessante Info.

 In Großstädten wäre genau so eine Regel oft falsch. Hier gibt es gerne
 mal mehrspuring
 Durchgangs-Straßen bei denen das sehrwohl erlaubt ist.
 Mein Vorschlag: Nicht generell verbieten sondern da, wo es nicht geht
 halt eine entsprechende
 Relation taggen.

 Marcus

sehe ich genauso. In der Regel sollte der Router davon ausgehen, dass
er eine Verbindung auch nutzen kann. Wenn nicht, ist entweder flasch
gemappt (Verbindung, wo keine ist), oder man muss durch eine Relation
klar machen, dass man die Verbindung nicht nutzen darf. Wenn man hier
mit Sonderregeln anfaengt (erst nach 50 m ausserorts), wird die Sache
bald unuebersichtlich und undurchschaubar.

Martin
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Re: [Talk-de] Mit jeder JOSM Version wirds schlimmer

2008-08-25 Thread Dirk Stöcker


On Mon, 25 Aug 2008, René Falk wrote:


edit.initial-move-treshhold

Ist auch überhaupt nicht kompliziert dass selbst nachzusehen.


Ist das schon drin oder muss man das noch hinzufügen? Einstein kennt
das bei mir nicht.


Die Einstein-Preferences kennen einen Wert nur unter zwei Bedingungen:
a) Der Wert ist konfiguriert wurden.
b) Der Wert wurde in der aktuellen Sitzung schonmal benutzt.

Also im Zweifelsfall die zugehörige Funktion einmal benutzen (hier Ändern) 
und dann die Preferences aufrufen. Dann bekommst Du im MouseOver über den 
Schlüssel auch den Default-Wert angezeigt.


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Re: [Talk-de] Unverbundene Radwege, jetzt ist Deutschland komplett!

2008-08-25 Thread Frank Wein

GS wrote:
 Hi,

 die Liste der unverbundenen Radwege umfasst nun nach etwa 15h Rechenzeit
 ganz Deutschland.

 http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/UnverbundeneRadwege

 Viel Spaß beim Korrigieren ;-)

 Gerhard
 Gary68

Hallo,
könnte man vielleicht die lat und lon Parameter in der URL durch mlat 
und mlon ersetzen, so dass am betreffenden Weg ein roter Marker zu sehen 
ist? JOSM scheint auch mit solchen URLs zurecht zu kommen.

Gruß
Frank

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[Talk-de] (Nicht) an Verbote halten...

2008-08-25 Thread Tim 'avatar' Bartel

... 
http://www.heise.de/newsticker/Googles-Strassenansichtsdienst-missachtet-Durchfahrtverbote--/meldung/114747

Wobei ich hier in der Gegend ja bereits mehrfach das Problem hatte,
dass Anwohner meinen, sie müssten nur ein Schild Privatstraße selbst
basteln und aufhängen um aus der öffentlichen Zufahrtsstraße zu ihrem
Haus eine Privatstraße zu machen...

Tschüss, Tim.

-- 
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Re: [Talk-de] (Nicht) an Verbote halten...