Re: [OSM-talk] How to present OSM to an audience of potential newbies?

[Celso González]

On Sat, Jun 06, 2009 at 11:17:13PM +0100, Tim Morley wrote:
> In a few weeks, I'll have the chance to present OSM to an audience of  
> youngish (18-30), intelligent, open-minded people, who more than  
> likely haven't yet come across the project. There may well be people  
> who are familiar with free and open source software, but that  
> probably won't be everybody present.
> 
> Are there wiki pages, slideshows, materials, ideas, etc. that you can  
> show me to help me prepare the presentation?

I recommend to open or close the presentation with the great video from
ito.
Its a very easy way to show how huge, active and worldwide its the project.

http://vimeo.com/2598878

 

-- 
Celso González (PerroVerd)
http://mitago.net

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[OSM-talk] Admin contact openstreetmap.org?

[Jochen Topf]

Hi!

I get the webmaster mail for openstreetmap.de. There seems to be no
contact on openstreetmap.org and so people often end up sending me
questions about openstreetmap.org. Recently two questions about
registration problems. Of course I can't help them.

1. where should I forward those mails?
2. can we have an easily findable contact address on openstreetmap.org?

Jochen
-- 
Jochen Topf  joc...@remote.org  http://www.remote.org/jochen/  +49-721-388298


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[OSM-talk] new Hillshade Layer for Europe at osm-wms.de available for map overlays

[Alexander Zipf]

Hello,

this message is maybe a little bit off-topic, but as it deals with free 
geodata on top of OSM maybe it is of interest for some of you and may 
save some work:

There is a new hillshade layer (shaded relief) available for (most of) 
Europe at http://www.osm-wms.de
It is suitable as transparent overlay for other online&offline maps in 
order to increase the placticity of the map.
e.g. next to osm-wms.de also OpenRouteService.org is using it now.

Thanks a lot to Michael Auer and Magnus Fees and colleagues (Martin 
Over, Steffen Neubauer, etc.) for processing the data and setting up the 
WMS&TileCache.
Currently it can be used for non-commercial/free applications (as it is 
based on the SRTM data from CIAT-CSI), similar to http://www.osm-3d.org.

This is still in beta test-mode, so the URL/config etc. might change, 
but we can provide it, if you want to use it already now.
In that case we thank you for referencing our work through a link to 
www.osm-wms.de.

have fun
best whishes
a. zipf

http://www.geographie.uni-bonn.de/karto/
http://www.osm-wms.de
http://www.OpenRouteService.org
http://www.osm-3d.org




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Re: [OSM-talk] Admin contact openstreetmap.org?

[Iván Sánchez Ortega]

El Lunes, 8 de Junio de 2009, Jochen Topf escribió:
> 2. can we have an easily findable contact address on openstreetmap.org?

Maybe you can refer to the list of contact persons on the wiki?

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Local_Contacts


-- 
--
Iván Sánchez Ortega 

"Los periódicos tradicionales ya están muertos (...) quieren dominar algo que 
se les ha escapado de las manos. Tienen miedo de sus propias webs."
   -- Gumersindo Lafuente, ex-director de Elmundo.es.


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Re: [OSM-talk] best GPX collection tool for Palm Treo 650

[Lambert Carsten]

On Monday 08 June 2009 02:24:40 Michael Kugelmann wrote:
> Joe Richards wrote:
> > What's the best tool for collecting GPX trails and adding OSM waypoints
> > for Palm OS?
I don't know anything about waypoints. I take pictures and later geotag them 
with the track I have recorded. I don't see what waypoints adds to that.
>
> A search for PALM in the OSM wiki
>http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Special:Search?search=Palm&go=Go
> leads to:
> -
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Making_Tracks_with_Homebrew-ware#Palm_OS
>+ http://www.abmh.de/en/osm4treo/
>+ http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/OSM2Palm
This one is great for viewing maps you have previously downloaded. It is 
supposed to be able to log tracks but on mine it tells me I have to first 
connect a gps receiver even though one is connected and osmtiles (the palm 
application) is showing my position correctly. The developer says on his site 
that he doesn't have any time for the moment so you need to be patient, but 
it is looking good.
Another limitation (for me) is that the application to download and convert 
the tiles is a windows application only.

>+ http://coto.marsrakete.de/projects/cotogps/
This is a very good application to give you info on your gps and make tracks. 
Using gpsbabel you can convert the tracks to gpx files

>+ http://www.cetusgps.dk/

This one might also interest you:
http://www.raydarllc.com/

It is shareware. I haven't really had a chance to properly test it. The trial 
version doesn't remember the basic settings so every time the application is 
started you have to go through all the settings again. I generally don't like 
wasting my time.

Lambert Carsten

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Re: [OSM-talk] Admin contact openstreetmap.org?

[Andy Robinson (blackadder-lists)]

Jochen,

If they are webmaster related then for now I would forward them to Grant.
I'll discuss with him about setting up a proper webmaster@ address than gets
fed to the technical team.

Cheers

Andy

>-Original Message-
>From: talk-boun...@openstreetmap.org [mailto:talk-
>boun...@openstreetmap.org] On Behalf Of Jochen Topf
>Sent: 08 June 2009 9:44 AM
>To: talk@openstreetmap.org
>Subject: [OSM-talk] Admin contact openstreetmap.org?
>
>Hi!
>
>I get the webmaster mail for openstreetmap.de. There seems to be no
>contact on openstreetmap.org and so people often end up sending me
>questions about openstreetmap.org. Recently two questions about
>registration problems. Of course I can't help them.
>
>1. where should I forward those mails?
>2. can we have an easily findable contact address on openstreetmap.org?
>
>Jochen
>--
>Jochen Topf  joc...@remote.org  http://www.remote.org/jochen/  +49-721-
>388298
>
>
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[OSM-talk] Wanted feature for API 0.7 ??

[ce-test, qualified testing bv - Gert Gremmen]

I want to suggest the following feature to the next API :

 
valid_per  tag supported


-  API will return only data of which the valid_per argument evaluates to TRUE 
-  A standard delete action may just set the expire_per tag to "expired per 
today".


The tags will need some regular expressions to it to allow for

visible on all Mondays, weekdays, time of days , holidays

Default (untagged items)  are always valid  of course.

This allows for:

- tagging items that are known to be exist only for a limited time 
(expositions, art projects and others) 
- setting areas under construction to an appropriate state for a defined span 
of time 
- drawing both current and future situation in a supported way (when new plans 
are known), this prevents the google maps problem
  of drawing non-existent roads and even quarters
- allow for bus routes and other with time varying items be drawn correctly 
(great support to route planning) (tag on relation)
- draw historically correct maps



This proposal will certainly need some refinement, please go ahead and suggest 
so...

Regards,

Gert Gremmen

g.grem...@cetest.nl
www.cetest.nl

Kiotoweg 363
3047 BG Rotterdam
T 31(0)104152426
F 31(0)104154953

 Before printing, think about the environment. 


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Re: [OSM-talk] Admin contact openstreetmap.org?

[Tom Hughes]

Andy Robinson (blackadder-lists) wrote:

> If they are webmaster related then for now I would forward them to Grant.
> I'll discuss with him about setting up a proper webmaster@ address than gets
> fed to the technical team.

No, please don't forward them to Grant. Forward them to webmaster, which 
currently means me.

Tom

-- 
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http://www.compton.nu/

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Re: [OSM-talk] Wanted feature for API 0.7 ??

[Frederik Ramm]

Hi,

ce-test, qualified testing bv - Gert Gremmen wrote:
> I want to suggest the following feature to the next API :

The API must be kept simple. I agree that lifecycle support needs 
improvement but the API is not the place to implement such specific 
rules. The API is, and should remain, first and foremost a storage 
engine that does not care about what you store in it.

I think that much of the functionality you desire could be achieved by 
improving the filter capabilities of the API. The API should always 
return what the client requests, and not add any magic evaluation rules 
itself. It is up the the client to decide whether it wants past or 
future objects, and how it wants to communicate a deletion to the API.

Improved filtering would not even require API 0.7 because it would just 
add a few things and leave the existing stuff untouched.

Bye
Frederik


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[OSM-talk] Cathedral or chapel

[Stephen Gower]

On Thu, Jun 04, 2009 at 11:12:13AM +0100, Dave Stubbs wrote:
> 
> You could have done church_type=cathedral, church_type=church, and
> church_type=chapel (arbitrary tag name choice... probably not a good
> one) and let the renderer figure out that for itself.

[Digression into an edge-case, probably best just to ignore me :-)]

The chapel of one of Oxford University's colleges, Christ Church,
is also a cathedral.  A rather unimpressive cathedral, but a
cathedral nevertheless.

s

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Re: [OSM-talk] Cathedral or chapel

[Dave Stubbs]

2009/6/8 Stephen Gower :
> On Thu, Jun 04, 2009 at 11:12:13AM +0100, Dave Stubbs wrote:
>>
>> You could have done church_type=cathedral, church_type=church, and
>> church_type=chapel (arbitrary tag name choice... probably not a good
>> one) and let the renderer figure out that for itself.
>
> [Digression into an edge-case, probably best just to ignore me :-)]
>
> The chapel of one of Oxford University's colleges, Christ Church,
> is also a cathedral.  A rather unimpressive cathedral, but a
> cathedral nevertheless.
>


/me looks up what makes a cathedral a cathedral on wikipedia and then
continues sounding highly knowledgeable...

Yes, entirely possible. After all, a cathedral is just a church with a
special chair and possibly some big guns.

Dave


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cathedral
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canon_(priest)

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Re: [OSM-talk] best GPX collection tool for Palm Treo 650

[Fabrizio Giudici]

On Monday 08 June 2009 02:24:40 Michael Kugelmann wrote:
  

Joe Richards wrote:


What's the best tool for collecting GPX trails and adding OSM waypoints
for Palm OS?
  

I
I wrote and maintain windRose (http://windrose.tidalwave.it). It lets 
you enter geotagged notes, that could be interpreted as waypoints. It 
exports in GPX (but not with waypoints) and an internal format (WRX, XML 
based) with waypoints. The latter is going to be dropped in favour of 
the former. If you try it and give me a quick feedback about what you 
need, I could easily fill the gaps. It works with various type of maps 
including OSM, and you can preload them on a memory support. It works 
with any bluetooth GPS receiver.


Let me know if you try it. Have a look at the quickstart for the 
description of the main features.


--
Fabrizio Giudici - Java Architect, Project Manager
Tidalwave s.a.s. - "We make Java work. Everywhere."
weblogs.java.net/blog/fabriziogiudici - www.tidalwave.it/blog
fabrizio.giud...@tidalwave.it - mobile: +39 348.150.6941

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[OSM-talk] Hacking At Random 2009 (August 13-16)

[marcus.wolschon]

Anyone comming to HAR2009 (August 13-16, 2009 hacker-camping in the
netherlands)
and looking for a village to camp in?
Feel free to enter yourself!

Or anyone with a pavilion, foldable table, fridge, cool lamps,...
along the way (e.g. all of western Germany) or near the camp-area
that we could borrow for the duration of the event?

https://wiki.har2009.org/page/Village:Geography


Marcus

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[OSM-talk] josm editing window screen goes blank

[maning sambale]

using josm ver 1654 I get a blank grey screen when zooming to z15 and beyond.

-- 
cheers,
maning
--
"Freedom is still the most radical idea of all" -N.Branden
wiki: http://esambale.wikispaces.com/
blog: http://epsg4253.wordpress.com/
--

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Re: [OSM-talk] Potlatch "connection to server failed"

[Richard Fairhurst]

Paul Fox wrote:
> i'm seeing this error this evening as well.  i've asked on IRC as
> suggested -- no one's able to help, or maybe no one's awake.  :-)

I've committed a small change which we think will fix it. Thanks to Joe for
"provoking" it and to Tom for checking the server logs.

cheers
Richard
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Re: [OSM-talk] Wanted feature for API 0.7 ??

[Peter Dörrie]

Whatever you say. I dont have the hacking chops needed to fully understand
the APi and how it works. But I am really interested in seeing some form of
"lifespan feature" implemented in OSM. So it would be grate if this
discussion makes some progress in getting closer to that goal.

Greetings, Peter

2009/6/8 Frederik Ramm 

> Hi,
>
> Peter Dörrie wrote:
>
>> in the (albeit short) discussion concerning my proposal to introduce tags
>> for feature lifecylcles (
>>
>> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Proposed_features/4th_Dimension/Archive
>> )
>> the outcome was that it has to be included server-side.
>>
>
> Some kind of general, improved filtering server-side makes sense (for
> example using a few standard tags and then, for example, have editors
> generally request only objects that do not have an "ancient" tag or so ;-)
>
> But the kind of logic that was suggested here, where the API filters by
> itself and when a "delete" request is issued, instead modifies some tags, is
> certainly not the way to go.
>
> Bye
> Frederik
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Potlatch "connection to server failed"

[Joe Richards]

>> i'm seeing this error this evening as well.  i've asked on IRC as

>> suggested -- no one's able to help, or maybe no one's awake.  :-)
>
> I've committed a small change which we think will fix it. Thanks to Joe for
> "provoking" it and to Tom for checking the server logs.

Cheers it works now, my changes are committed! Thanks Richard and Tom



  

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Re: [OSM-talk] Potlatch "connection to server failed"

[Paul Fox]

joe wrote:
 > 
 > >> i'm seeing this error this evening as well.  i've asked on IRC as
 > 
 > >> suggested -- no one's able to help, or maybe no one's awake.  :-)
 > >
 > > I've committed a small change which we think will fix it. Thanks to Joe for
 > > "provoking" it and to Tom for checking the server logs.
 > 
 > Cheers it works now, my changes are committed! Thanks Richard and Tom

did you have to redo all your edits?  or is there a way to rescue
changes that weren't able to be uploaded before the changeset
timed out?  (potlatch is still showing my changes, but says there's
nothing to upload.)

(btw, my irc client indicated that someone said something to me
last night, but i don't have enough scrollback configured so i
lost it.  my apologies.)

paul
=-
 paul fox, p...@foxharp.boston.ma.us (arlington, ma, where it's 58.8 degrees)

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Re: [OSM-talk] best GPX collection tool for Palm Treo 650

[Michael Kugelmann]

Fabrizio Giudici schrieb:
> I wrote and maintain windRose (http://windrose.tidalwave.it). 
Added to the Wiki at "Making Tracks with Homebrew-ware" in the section Palm.
Also added: GeoNiche.


Best regards,
Michael.


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Re: [OSM-talk] Wanted feature for API 0.7 ??

[Matt Amos]

2009/6/8 Peter Dörrie :
> Whatever you say. I dont have the hacking chops needed to fully understand
> the APi and how it works. But I am really interested in seeing some form of
> "lifespan feature" implemented in OSM. So it would be grate if this
> discussion makes some progress in getting closer to that goal.

as frederik says, it doesn't need to be implemented in the API - all
of it can already be done client-side using the appropriate tags*.
frederik is also right when he says this can be made simpler and
easier if we have filtering support. XAPI already has some filtering
support, making it easy to test out ideas before trying to get stuff
implemented in the main API.

cheers,

matt

* there may not be a consensus on what the appropriate tags are, but
that doesn't change the technical point ;-)

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Re: [OSM-talk] Cathedral or chapel

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2009/6/8 Dave Stubbs :
> 2009/6/8 Stephen Gower :
>> On Thu, Jun 04, 2009 at 11:12:13AM +0100, Dave Stubbs wrote:
>>>
>>> You could have done church_type=cathedral, church_type=church, and
>>> church_type=chapel (arbitrary tag name choice... probably not a good
>>> one) and let the renderer figure out that for itself.
>>
>> [Digression into an edge-case, probably best just to ignore me :-)]
>>
>> The chapel of one of Oxford University's colleges, Christ Church,
>> is also a cathedral.  A rather unimpressive cathedral, but a
>> cathedral nevertheless.
>>
>
>
> /me looks up what makes a cathedral a cathedral on wikipedia and then
> continues sounding highly knowledgeable...
>
> Yes, entirely possible. After all, a cathedral is just a church with a
> special chair and possibly some big guns.

this means, churches should always be tagged by their highest possible
rating. E.g. a chapel that is a cathedral should be tagged as
cathedral, because it is high in church hierarchy, because there is a
bishop's seat.

Martin

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Re: [OSM-talk] Wanted feature for API 0.7 ??

[Peter Dörrie]

>
> as frederik says, it doesn't need to be implemented in the API - all
> of it can already be done client-side using the appropriate tags*.


Well several Users made the point that this would "break" all applications
that exist today, as they would be useless in their current state. The
current JOSM for example would not be able to make out the difference
between "planned" , "constructed", "live", "disused" and "historic" objects,
leading to a cluttering of the interface and inflation of the data-amounts.
The current renderes wouldn't be able to handle it either and forcing 50+
applications to change would be unappropriate.

Peter
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Re: [OSM-talk] Wanted feature for API 0.7 ??

[Frederik Ramm]

Hi,

Peter Dörrie wrote:
> The current renderes wouldn't be able to handle it either and forcing 50+
> applications to change would be unappropriate.

Why, we're doing that all the time ;-)

There are many unsolved questions here. For example: What happens if 
parts of the "ancient" world transcend your "fourth dimension", e.g. a 
contemporary secondary road uses a few bits of an ancient Roman road. 
They would surely share the same nodes, wouldn't they? But if someone 
then deletes the secondary road (which he downloaded without ever 
knowing that the Roman road also exists because that was shielded from 
him), he must not delete the nodes because they are still used by other 
objects...

There has to be a well-thought-out solution for this and I believe this 
is likely to require every client working with the API to consider such 
cases.

Bye
Frederik


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Re: [OSM-talk] Wanted feature for API 0.7 ??

[Dave Stubbs]

2009/6/8 Peter Dörrie :
>
>>
>> as frederik says, it doesn't need to be implemented in the API - all
>> of it can already be done client-side using the appropriate tags*.
>
> Well several Users made the point that this would "break" all applications
> that exist today, as they would be useless in their current state. The
> current JOSM for example would not be able to make out the difference
> between "planned" , "constructed", "live", "disused" and "historic" objects,
> leading to a cluttering of the interface and inflation of the data-amounts.
> The current renderes wouldn't be able to handle it either and forcing 50+
> applications to change would be unappropriate.
>


Which just tells you those aren't the "appropriate tags" of which matt speaks.

Careful selection of tags means that nothing existing needs to change,
unless it's to make life easier for the user by adding filtering
features.

Dave

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Re: [OSM-talk] Wanted feature for API 0.7 ??

[MP]

I thought of another wanter feature for 0.7 API

Retrieving deleted objects, similarly like it is done in potlatch.
Currently only potlatch can do this and since potlatch does not work
well with larger areas (it is way too slow) and does not support many
features that JOSM have (WMS, plugins, loading/saving to disk, gpx
tracks, gpx waypoints ), it is not good for more  advanced users

Potlatch can also only resurrect deleted ways, it could be sometimes
useful to be able to resurrect deleted nodes in this way too.

Basically, the API call should have bbox as input and return all
deleted ways (and perhaps also nodes) as output. I think it should
return last existing version of that objects before deletion.

Martin

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Re: [OSM-talk] Wanted feature for API 0.7 ??

[Richard Fairhurst]

MP wrote:
> Currently only potlatch can do this and since potlatch does not 
> work well with larger areas (it is way too slow) and does not 
> support many features that JOSM have (WMS, plugins, 
> loading/saving to disk, gpx tracks, gpx waypoints )

Well, apart from the GPX tracks (which it supports) and GPX waypoints (which
it supports) and WMS (which it doesn't, but it does - unlike JOSM - do
900913 tiles, which are what all the cool kids are using)...

...you're completely right.

> it is not good for more  advanced users

cheers
Richard
arguably a fairly advanced user :p
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Re: [OSM-talk] Cathedral or chapel

[Eugene Alvin Villar]

Tag suggestion:

amenity=place_of_worship
place_of_worship=parish chapel cathedral basilica church monastery convent
retreat_house shrine abbey synagogue temple kingdom_hall jamaa masjid mosque
pantheon etc.


On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 9:02 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer
wrote:

> 2009/6/8 Dave Stubbs :
> > 2009/6/8 Stephen Gower :
> >> On Thu, Jun 04, 2009 at 11:12:13AM +0100, Dave Stubbs wrote:
> >>>
> >>> You could have done church_type=cathedral, church_type=church, and
> >>> church_type=chapel (arbitrary tag name choice... probably not a good
> >>> one) and let the renderer figure out that for itself.
> >>
> >> [Digression into an edge-case, probably best just to ignore me :-)]
> >>
> >> The chapel of one of Oxford University's colleges, Christ Church,
> >> is also a cathedral.  A rather unimpressive cathedral, but a
> >> cathedral nevertheless.
> >>
> >
> >
> > /me looks up what makes a cathedral a cathedral on wikipedia and then
> > continues sounding highly knowledgeable...
> >
> > Yes, entirely possible. After all, a cathedral is just a church with a
> > special chair and possibly some big guns.
>
> this means, churches should always be tagged by their highest possible
> rating. E.g. a chapel that is a cathedral should be tagged as
> cathedral, because it is high in church hierarchy, because there is a
> bishop's seat.
>
> Martin
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Wanted feature for API 0.7 ??

[Peter Dörrie]

2009/6/8 Frederik Ramm 

> Hi,
>
> Peter Dörrie wrote:
>
>> The current renderes wouldn't be able to handle it either and forcing 50+
>> applications to change would be unappropriate.
>>
>
> Why, we're doing that all the time ;-)


Yeah I thought so too, but this was one of the main arguments against my
first try to establish something like this.


>
> There are many unsolved questions here. For example: What happens if parts
> of the "ancient" world transcend your "fourth dimension", e.g. a
> contemporary secondary road uses a few bits of an ancient Roman road. They
> would surely share the same nodes, wouldn't they? But if someone then
> deletes the secondary road (which he downloaded without ever knowing that
> the Roman road also exists because that was shielded from him), he must not
> delete the nodes because they are still used by other objects...


My angle on this is primarily the historical-genetic one. Taking your
example:

1. Brutus Mappus maps this roman long distance road in 100 B.C he tags it
correctly with highway=roman and surface=cobblestone. The road is used in
that form for the better part of the next two millennia.

2. In the 19th century it gets some heavy usage and deteriorates. The local
government decides to build a new road, which uses some of the same vectors
the roman road used so far. The grat-great-great (etc) son of Mappus (John
Maps) splits the road, tagging part of it as highway=disused and others as
highway=construction.

3. The new highway is ready and John tags it as highway=primary

4. The same thing happens several times over until fake Steve finds a
motorway, using some parts of the primary road, using some parts of the
roman road (which by now is not longer visible in the landscape and has been
tagged as historic).

Okay, what does this mean for whom?

Users: The normal user will see a rendering which shows "what is on the
ground". -> Motorway and those parts of the primary road that still exist

Mappers: The normal mapper will see, what is relevant to him. -> Same as
user and some additional tags (oneway, surface, maxspeed, etc.) plus perhaps
those "disused" roads, as they may still be relevant to mapping.

Special interest person (scientist, etc): He gets the possibility of seeing
exactly what he wants to see. The situation in 100 B.C? no problem. Ask the
database about all disused / historic / etc objects? also no problem.

Different object sharing the same nodes over time (and changing them) is not
a problem.



Greetings,

Peter
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[OSM-talk] Is Xapi working?

[Chris Hill]

I've tried to access some stuff from Xapi and it keeps coming back with

The network link was interrupted while negotiating a connection. Please 
try again.

This happened over the weekend too. The request this time was

http://osmxapi.hypercube.telascience.org/api/0.6/node[amenity=studio]

Am I doing something wrong or is there something wrong with Xapi?

Cheers, Chris

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Re: [OSM-talk] Wanted feature for API 0.7 ??

[Maarten Deen]

Frederik Ramm wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Peter Dörrie wrote:
> > The current renderes wouldn't be able to handle it either and forcing 50+
> > applications to change would be unappropriate.
>
> Why, we're doing that all the time ;-)
>
> There are many unsolved questions here. For example: What happens if 
> parts of the "ancient" world transcend your "fourth dimension", e.g. a 
> contemporary secondary road uses a few bits of an ancient Roman road. 
> They would surely share the same nodes, wouldn't they? But if someone 
> then deletes the secondary road (which he downloaded without ever 
> knowing that the Roman road also exists because that was shielded from 
> him), he must not delete the nodes because they are still used by other 
> objects...
>   

No... in the temporal database you don't delete nodes or ways, you set 
the correct "used in" period ;)

But it opens a large can of worms if you are looking at temporal 
information. All SciFi books can tell you that.

Maarten

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Re: [OSM-talk] Wanted feature : VALID_PER tag ?

[ce-test, qualified testing bv - Gert Gremmen]

The essential thing of my proposal (however it be implemented)

is that NOTHING changes with the current software or apps.

 

A standard request will just deliver the current state of the map.

The API will filter out all "deleted" (just as now) and additionally all

object that have a valid_per tag that evaluates to false (new).

If you think about it, deleted just means:  valid_per= false per today

 

 

Then new apps could make use to request tot the API exact the 

time span as required.

Send me all tracks valid on 2009 til 2021, because I want to map my town before

the new quarter was put in place of the old one.

 

JOSM might request "CURRENT + FUTURE" to let people edit future stuff.

Editing deleted data could be enabled for the date of deletion only,

we cannot delete data if we want to keep history. Just

the data becomes invalid per deletion date. The date

depends on the day someone finds a superfluous object, but

may be changed if he knows the exact date it was removed.

 

The bus routing planner might request all data

valid on Monday morning between 9 and 12 so as

the user is presented the right route the bus will take that morning.

 

If next week the bus route will change, the relations describing

a route  can be edited in advance

by editing new  ones and enable them on a future date.

 

Of course this is not manual editing anymore. it may be too

complex to really keep the valid_per tag meaningful

by editing by hand with 100K+ usrs. But in the future

we will mass import many public databases, and they may

be tagged accordingly on the date of import.

The  valid_per data needs not be implemented in OSM

but can be retrieved from a separate "bus routing" database,

where the OSM data just tell the user where to find "valid_per"

data.

 

I , just like Peter, do not see how problems in mixed data

(the roman way) could get in the way, as nothing is deleted,

just becomes invalid for standard application.

 

 

 

 

Gert Gremmen

-

 

Openstreetmap.nl  (alias: cetest)

P Before printing, think about the environment. 

 

 

Van: talk-boun...@openstreetmap.org [mailto:talk-boun...@openstreetmap.org] 
Namens Peter Dörrie
Verzonden: Monday, June 08, 2009 4:49 PM
Aan: Frederik Ramm
CC: talk@openstreetmap.org
Onderwerp: Re: [OSM-talk] Wanted feature for API 0.7 ??

 

 

2009/6/8 Frederik Ramm 

Hi,



Peter Dörrie wrote:

The current renderes wouldn't be able to handle it either and forcing 50+
applications to change would be unappropriate.

 

Why, we're doing that all the time ;-)


Yeah I thought so too, but this was one of the main arguments against my first 
try to establish something like this.
 


There are many unsolved questions here. For example: What happens if 
parts of the "ancient" world transcend your "fourth dimension", e.g. a 
contemporary secondary road uses a few bits of an ancient Roman road. They 
would surely share the same nodes, wouldn't they? But if someone then deletes 
the secondary road (which he downloaded without ever knowing that the Roman 
road also exists because that was shielded from him), he must not delete the 
nodes because they are still used by other objects...


My angle on this is primarily the historical-genetic one. Taking your example:

1. Brutus Mappus maps this roman long distance road in 100 B.C he tags it 
correctly with highway=roman and surface=cobblestone. The road is used in that 
form for the better part of the next two millennia.

2. In the 19th century it gets some heavy usage and deteriorates. The local 
government decides to build a new road, which uses some of the same vectors the 
roman road used so far. The grat-great-great (etc) son of Mappus (John Maps) 
splits the road, tagging part of it as highway=disused and others as 
highway=construction.

3. The new highway is ready and John tags it as highway=primary

4. The same thing happens several times over until fake Steve finds a motorway, 
using some parts of the primary road, using some parts of the roman road (which 
by now is not longer visible in the landscape and has been tagged as historic).

Okay, what does this mean for whom?

Users: The normal user will see a rendering which shows "what is on the 
ground". -> Motorway and those parts of the primary road that still exist

Mappers: The normal mapper will see, what is relevant to him. -> Same as user 
and some additional tags (oneway, surface, maxspeed, etc.) plus perhaps those 
"disused" roads, as they may still be relevant to mapping. 

Special interest person (scientist, etc): He gets the possibility of seeing 
exactly what he wants to see. The situation in 100 B.C? no problem. Ask the 
database about all disused / historic / etc objects? also no problem.

Different object sharing the same nodes over time (and changing them) is not a 
problem.



Greetings,

Peter

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Re: [OSM-talk] best GPX collection tool for Palm Treo 650

[Michael Kugelmann]

Hello,
>> I wrote and maintain windRose (http://windrose.tidalwave.it). 
>> 
BTW: does anybody know where to get the IBM Java runtime which is 
required for windRose? It is no longer downloadable from the PALM 
homepage nor from IBM...   :-(


Thanks for your help,
Michael.


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Re: [OSM-talk] Is Xapi working?

[Yann Coupin]

I tried multiple times to access it since the migration to the 0.6 API  
but I've not been able to get a successful answer even once. The  
actual result varied between a blank page, a 50x error or a network  
error.

Yann

Le 8 juin 09 à 16:53, Chris Hill a écrit :

> I've tried to access some stuff from Xapi and it keeps coming back  
> with
>
> The network link was interrupted while negotiating a connection.  
> Please
> try again.
>
> This happened over the weekend too. The request this time was
>
> http://osmxapi.hypercube.telascience.org/api/0.6/node[amenity=studio]
>
> Am I doing something wrong or is there something wrong with Xapi?


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Re: [OSM-talk] best GPX collection tool for Palm Treo 650

[Fabrizio Giudici]

Michael Kugelmann wrote:

Hello,
  
I wrote and maintain windRose (http://windrose.tidalwave.it). 

  
BTW: does anybody know where to get the IBM Java runtime which is 
required for windRose? It is no longer downloadable from the PALM 
homepage nor from IBM...   :-(
  
Unfortunately this is not possible by official channels, as the product 
has been discontinued. You could try to contact somebody that has got it 
already installed on his Palm :-)


--
Fabrizio Giudici - Java Architect, Project Manager
Tidalwave s.a.s. - "We make Java work. Everywhere."
weblogs.java.net/blog/fabriziogiudici - www.tidalwave.it/blog
fabrizio.giud...@tidalwave.it - mobile: +39 348.150.6941

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Re: [OSM-talk] Wanted feature for API 0.7 ??

[Matt Amos]

On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 3:17 PM, MP wrote:
> I thought of another wanter feature for 0.7 API
>
> Retrieving deleted objects, similarly like it is done in potlatch.
> Currently only potlatch can do this and since potlatch does not work
> well with larger areas (it is way too slow) and does not support many
> features that JOSM have (WMS, plugins, loading/saving to disk, gpx
> tracks, gpx waypoints ), it is not good for more  advanced users

what, like this?
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/dev/2009-May/015582.html

its on my TODO ;-)

cheers,

matt

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Re: [OSM-talk] Is Xapi working?

[80n]

The server running the xapi service is down at the moment.

Yann, what query were you trying.  Once the server is back up I can take a
look and see why it would be failing for you.

80n

On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 4:47 PM, Yann Coupin  wrote:

> I tried multiple times to access it since the migration to the 0.6 API
> but I've not been able to get a successful answer even once. The
> actual result varied between a blank page, a 50x error or a network
> error.
>
> Yann
>
> Le 8 juin 09 à 16:53, Chris Hill a écrit :
>
> > I've tried to access some stuff from Xapi and it keeps coming back
> > with
> >
> > The network link was interrupted while negotiating a connection.
> > Please
> > try again.
> >
> > This happened over the weekend too. The request this time was
> >
> > http://osmxapi.hypercube.telascience.org/api/0.6/node[amenity=studio]
> >
> > Am I doing something wrong or is there something wrong with Xapi?
>
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] petition

[Gervase Markham]

On 04/06/09 14:25, Josh wrote:
> hello there is a very important petition in my signature I would
> appreciate if you would sign it please.

Hi Josh,

Do you know about NVDA?
http://www.nvda-project.org/

It's a high-quality, free and open source screen reader for Windows. 
There are also free readers for free operating systems. There's a big 
list here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_screen_readers

Gerv


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Re: [OSM-talk] Wanted feature for API 0.7 ??

[Matt Amos]

2009/6/8 Peter Dörrie :
> 2009/6/8 Frederik Ramm 
>> There are many unsolved questions here. For example: What happens if parts
>> of the "ancient" world transcend your "fourth dimension", e.g. a
>> contemporary secondary road uses a few bits of an ancient Roman road. They
>> would surely share the same nodes, wouldn't they? But if someone then
>> deletes the secondary road (which he downloaded without ever knowing that
>> the Roman road also exists because that was shielded from him), he must not
>> delete the nodes because they are still used by other objects...
>
> My angle on this is primarily the historical-genetic one. Taking your
> example:

i'm pretty sure this isn't the example that frederik was talking about.

> 1. Brutus Mappus maps this roman long distance road in 100 B.C he tags it
> correctly with highway=roman and surface=cobblestone. The road is used in
> that form for the better part of the next two millennia.
>
> 2. In the 19th century it gets some heavy usage and deteriorates. The local
> government decides to build a new road, which uses some of the same vectors
> the roman road used so far. The grat-great-great (etc) son of Mappus (John
> Maps) splits the road, tagging part of it as highway=disused and others as
> highway=construction.

and if he just deletes the road?

> 3. The new highway is ready and John tags it as highway=primary
>
> 4. The same thing happens several times over until fake Steve finds a
> motorway, using some parts of the primary road, using some parts of the
> roman road (which by now is not longer visible in the landscape and has been
> tagged as historic).

until Victor Vandal comes along and moves some of those nodes halfway
across the world, or uses them to spell a rude word.

> Okay, what does this mean for whom?
>
> Users: The normal user will see a rendering which shows "what is on the
> ground". -> Motorway and those parts of the primary road that still exist
>
> Mappers: The normal mapper will see, what is relevant to him. -> Same as
> user and some additional tags (oneway, surface, maxspeed, etc.) plus perhaps
> those "disused" roads, as they may still be relevant to mapping.
>
> Special interest person (scientist, etc): He gets the possibility of seeing
> exactly what he wants to see. The situation in 100 B.C? no problem. Ask the
> database about all disused / historic / etc objects? also no problem.
>
> Different object sharing the same nodes over time (and changing them) is not
> a problem.

this "4-D" usage of OSM has some problems:

1) given enough eyeballs, all bugs are shallow. in other words, we
shouldn't be hiding data; the more users who are looking at the data,
the more users who are correcting and extending it. any "special
interest" layer would, by definition, be default hidden.

2) sharing information which shouldn't be shared. there will be two
ways from different "special interest" layers which share a node when
they shouldn't, leading to all sorts of fun when that someone tries to
delete that node from one layer and can't because it's being used by a
way from an invisible layer. this was frederik's point, i think.

3) not sharing information which should be shared. if i went to a
roman road and surveyed it extremely accurately and, because its a
currently-in-use road, lined up the current highway with the
measurements that would update the "special interest" roman road,
right? well, it depends on how that works. if the roman road and
current road share all their nodes, but i add a node to the current
road, does that make the client add a node to the roman road too?
again, the client can't know this without downloading all the data.

my solution would be to set up my own OSM server for this kind of
purely historical data, where it won't conflict with existing OSM
data.

cheers,

matt

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Re: [OSM-talk] Cathedral or chapel

[Stephen Gower]

On Mon, Jun 08, 2009 at 03:02:08PM +0200, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
> > 2009/6/8 Stephen Gower :
> >>
> >> The chapel of one of Oxford University's colleges, Christ Church,
> >> is also a cathedral.  A rather unimpressive cathedral, but a
> >> cathedral nevertheless.
> 
> this means, churches should always be tagged by their highest possible
> rating.

Not if you think the data on every college chapel in the city might
need to be extracted. OK, this is exceptional, and you'd probably
just manually add in Christ Church's chapel if you wanted that
data. It is, as I said before, an edgecase, and I'm posting mostly
for the sake of interest, but it's not a heirarchical thing - the
building's role as College Chapel is distinct, important, and not
lesser than its role as cathedral.

s

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Re: [OSM-talk] Wanted feature : VALID_PER tag ?

[Matt Amos]

2009/6/8 ce-test, qualified testing bv - Gert Gremmen :
> The essential thing of my proposal (however it be implemented)
> is that NOTHING changes with the current software or apps.
>
> A standard request will just deliver the current state of the map.
> The API will filter out all “deleted” (just as now) and additionally all
> object that have a valid_per tag that evaluates to false (new).
> If you think about it, deleted just means:  valid_per= false per today

so the API isn't current software?

> JOSM might request “CURRENT + FUTURE” to let people edit future stuff.

wouldn't this require a change to JOSM?

> The  valid_per data needs not be implemented in OSM
> but can be retrieved from a separate “bus routing” database,
> where the OSM data just tell the user where to find “valid_per”
> data.

that sounds like an awesome idea. even better if the external database
says where to get the OSM data, so the OSM data doesn't need to be
changed.

> I , just like Peter, do not see how problems in mixed data
> (the roman way) could get in the way, as nothing is deleted,
> just becomes invalid for standard application.

thanks, but we already have a few problems with ways referring to
"invalid" nodes. i don't really want more (and more complex,
time-dependant) problems.

cheers,

matt

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Re: [OSM-talk] Cathedral or chapel

[Blaž Lorger]

We certainly need better solution than JOSM presets historic=wayside_cross and 
historic=wayside_shrine. But with your suggestion there would be hundreds or 
even thousands values for tag place_of_worship.

Maybe we should just differentiate on size and build type: building hosting 
20+ people, building hosting 1-19 people, built structure but person can not 
enter (wayside_shrine), simple marker (wayside_cross, painted signs) and no 
markings (it is just holy place). I guess we also should not forget tents, 
wooden shacks, ...
Such places could also be areas.

Big buildings are not necessarily more holy than smaller structures or even 
unmarked places. So marking some big building (cathedral) should probably be 
considered in categories tourism and additional historic for older buildings.

On Monday 08 June 2009 16:46:55 Eugene Alvin Villar wrote:
> Tag suggestion:
>
> amenity=place_of_worship
> place_of_worship=parish chapel cathedral basilica church monastery convent
> retreat_house shrine abbey synagogue temple kingdom_hall jamaa masjid
> mosque pantheon etc.
>
>

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Re: [OSM-talk] Wanted feature for API 0.7 ??

[Frederik Ramm]

Hi,

Matt Amos wrote:
> 3) not sharing information which should be shared. if i went to a
> roman road and surveyed it extremely accurately and, because its a
> currently-in-use road, lined up the current highway with the
> measurements that would update the "special interest" roman road,
> right? well, it depends on how that works. if the roman road and
> current road share all their nodes, but i add a node to the current
> road, does that make the client add a node to the roman road too?
> again, the client can't know this without downloading all the data.
> 
> my solution would be to set up my own OSM server for this kind of
> purely historical data, where it won't conflict with existing OSM
> data.

I was actually trying to suggest that it might, in some cases, really 
make sense for things to be shared between the then and the now. If you 
take the Parthenon in Rome, then the geometry should be pretty much the 
same between now and ancient times, and as you say, refining the 
geometry of today's tourism=attraction should ideally also improve the 
ancient place_of_worship=church. This could not be done if you have 
Ancient Rome on a separate server.

Much as we pride ourselves in topological correctness - for us, a 
junction is not where two linear shapes happen to intersect, but an 
explicitly placed node that, if moved, will modify both shapes -, I 
would also love to see continuity in the temporal dimension, i.e. I 
would prefer the Parthenon to use the same nodes, then and now, because 
it *is* the same building.

I guess this has the potential to be hellishly complex but also fun.

Bye
Frederik

-- 
Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail frede...@remote.org  ##  N49°00'09" E008°23'33"

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Re: [OSM-talk] Wanted feature for API 0.7 ??

[Matt Amos]

On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 7:08 PM, Frederik Ramm wrote:
> I guess this has the potential to be hellishly complex but also fun.

i guess we've just got different ideas of what "fun" is... i agree
about the hellish part, though ;-)

cheers,

matt

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Re: [OSM-talk] [english 95%] Re: How to present OSM to an audience of potentialnewbies?

[k...@vielevisels]

Hi Tim,
the one reason I help in OSM is something, which you can't do with 
google...:
Tagging ways for a specific purpose. In my case for mountainbiking. (Use 
mountainbike as search-string). On http://openmtbmap.org/ you can download 
OSM based Maps especially rendered for biking, with routing capabilites.
Kai

- Original Message - 
From: "Richard Weait" 
To: "Tim Morley" 
Cc: 
Sent: Sunday, June 07, 2009 2:48 PM
Subject: [english 95%] Re: [OSM-talk] How to present OSM to an audience of 
potentialnewbies?


> On Sat, 2009-06-06 at 23:17 +0100, Tim Morley wrote:
>> In a few weeks, I'll have the chance to present OSM to an audience of
>> youngish (18-30), intelligent, open-minded people, who more than
>> likely haven't yet come across the project. There may well be people
>> who are familiar with free and open source software, but that
>> probably won't be everybody present.
>>
>> Are there wiki pages, slideshows, materials, ideas, etc. that you can
>> show me to help me prepare the presentation?
>>
>> Failing that, how do *you* explain to someone that uses Google Maps
>> every day why you spend your time re-creating the same thing under a
>> different name? (Slightly provocative question, perhaps, but it must
>> be a very common one too -- what's your answer?)
>
> Dear Tim,
>
> You can find videos of Nick Black, Steve Coast and others giving Intro
> to OSM talks at various sites.  Sorry I don't have those links handy.
> There is another video here http://weait.com
>
> And a slide deck in ODF.  http://weait.com/IntroToOSM-summercamp.odp
>
> You are right to consider your audience as you prepare.  My typical 30
> min. to 60 min. talk outline for Introduction to OpenStreetMap is
> approximately:
>
> Why do you care about maps in general?   <-- Don't skip this!
> What is OpenStreetMap?  OpenGeoData / Open Source Software
> Why does it exist / How did it start / Who is involved?
> Show examples of what is done with OpenStreetMap.
> How does this differ from commercial on-line maps?
> Show examples of commercial map failings and OSM benefits
> How to collect data for OSM.
> How to open an account and start editing.
> Questions.
>
> My next talk is at SouthEast LinuxFest, Clemson, SC Saturday, 13 June
> 2009.
>
> Common questions:
>
> Why redo what others have online for free?
>
> Many people care about copyright and commercial maps may not allow your
> desired use of their copyright materials.  The general case answer for
> OpenStreetMap is "you are allowed" even for commercial use.  (Check the
> license for details)
>
> What about quality control?
>
> OpenStreetMap has more surveyors and more quality assurance.  Anybody
> can fix it.  You've seen the failings in commercial maps (slow updates,
> limited data, unmapped areas) and in commercial maps you can't fix that.
> You, and everybody around you are helping OSM quality control.
>
> Aren't you giving better maps to "The Terrists?"
>
> Oh, please.  http://weait.com/content/ban-terrorist-tools
>
> Best regards,
> Richard
>
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] [english 93%] [tagging] Feature Proposal - Voting - mtb:description

[k...@vielevisels]

Hi,
the first votes for the feature mtb:description are here. 
Discussions and ideas on 
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Proposed_features/mtb:description since 
start of the vote: 
* Language in local language, and optional language tags like with thwe name-tag
* Difference to the "normal" description tag
Anyone interested in mtbiking please discuss and vote...
Kai


  - Original Message - 
  From: k...@vielevisels 
  To: talk@openstreetmap.org 
  Sent: Tuesday, June 02, 2009 10:23 PM
  Subject: [english 93%] [OSM-talk] [tagging] Feature Proposal - Voting - 
mtb:description


  Hi,
  just started the voting for the feature mtb:description. For details see 
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/mtb:description

  Kaivi


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[OSM-talk] Open*Map.* ?

[Russ Nelson]

Is there a comprehensive listing of all Open*Map.* sites anywhere?  I  
know of these:

http://OpenStreetMap.org
http://OpenCycleMap.org
http://OpenSeaMap.org
http://OpenPisteMap.org
http://OpenMtBMap.org

And then there's the sites which have a different style of domain name  
but which fit into the pattern:
http://OpenTopoMap.org -> http://toposm.com

--
Russ Nelson - http://community.cloudmade.com/blog - 
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:RussNelson
r...@cloudmade.com - Twitter: Russ_OSM - 
http://openstreetmap.org/user/RussNelson


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Re: [OSM-talk] Is Xapi working?

[Roland Olbricht]

> This happened over the weekend too. The request this time was
>
> http://osmxapi.hypercube.telascience.org/api/0.6/node[amenity=studio]

You can try to use the "OSM Server Side Script" server. Just try on the 
command line

wget -O studio.nosm --post-data="" 
http://78.46.81.38/api/interpreter

(all on a single line)

or run in you favourite browser

http://78.46.81.38/api/interpreter?data=%3Cquery%20type=%22node%22%3E%3Chas-kv%20k=%22amenity%22%20v=%22studio%22/%3E%3C/query%3E%3Cprint%20mode=%22body%22/%3E

(entire URL on a single line)

This returns a gzipped file with all results. The service is less up-to-date 
(designed to be 4 to 6 hours behind) and does not contain edit metadata 
(timestamp, uid of editor, version) but depending on your needs it still 
might help.

Cheers,
Roland

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Re: [OSM-talk] Open*Map.* ?

[Nic Roets]

Hi Russ,

Does http://www.opengreenmap.org/ count ? The only thing that "open" about
them is that they use FOSS and they are open to accepting pins in a Google
Map. (The same can be said about Google Earth, so they are as open as the
Democratic People's Republic of Korea is democratic)**

Regards,
Nic

On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 10:32 PM, Russ Nelson  wrote:

> Is there a comprehensive listing of all Open*Map.* sites anywhere?  I
> know of these:
>
> http://OpenStreetMap.org
> http://OpenCycleMap.org
> http://OpenSeaMap.org
> http://OpenPisteMap.org
> http://OpenMtBMap.org
>
> And then there's the sites which have a different style of domain name
> but which fit into the pattern:
> http://OpenTopoMap.org -> http://toposm.com
>
> --
> Russ Nelson - http://community.cloudmade.com/blog -
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:RussNelson
> r...@cloudmade.com - Twitter: Russ_OSM -
> http://openstreetmap.org/user/RussNelson
>
>
> ___
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Re: [OSM-talk] Wanted feature for API 0.7 ??

[Ed Loach]

> But it opens a large can of worms if you are looking at
> temporal
> information. All SciFi books can tell you that.

What, like a child node might risk becoming it's own grandfather
node?

Ed



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Re: [OSM-talk] RFC - 'living_street'

[Paul Johnson]

USHAKOV, Sergey wrote:
> Hi again,
> 
> looks like I have brought a lot of confusion in my previous posts by misuse
> of the word 'alley'. The latter seems to have too broad range of meanings,
> and many of them are not what I meant. Just compare
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alley (not good as a 'living_street') and
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Alley.JpG (might probably be).
> 
> Please consider the following proposed definition for a 'living_street':
> 
> 'living_street' is a:
> - pubic street or way
> - in a residential area
> - intended for mixed vehicle/pedestrian traffic
> - where vehicles have extra limitations and pedestrians have extra rights as
> compared to normal streets/ways (details depending on local legislation)
> - may optionally have a name as a street
> - may be optionally marked with "Residential Area" traffic sign where
> appropriate.
> 
> Please kindly comment/criticize.

I honestly don't see where the confusion is.  Alleys occur in all kinds
of districts throughout the world, the type of way doesn't change purely
on inductive reasoning alone.  If it's a back alleyway where you're not
expected to do more than find hidden driveways, garbage and delivery
access, and maybe off-street parking, it's not a living_street even if
all the ways around it are.

Wikipedia isn't the best example making a judgement call on this,
either; our own wiki is much better in this regard.  Our wiki has
tagging examples and graphics that seem to make it pretty clear that the
living_street tag applies only to ways that are actually living_streets,
not all ways in an area.

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway%3Dservice
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Living_street



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Re: [OSM-talk] script to cut a big OSM map into letter or A4 size papers

[Simone Cortesi]

On Fri, Jun 5, 2009 at 11:16 AM, maning
sambale wrote:
> Now the only thing I need to do is cramp the whole map features page
> in an A4  as a user guide.  Same with birdwatchers Bird ID Guide I
> used before.

a cheat sheet! really needed, and it will make something worth pushing
also through the osm shop.

-S

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Re: [OSM-talk] Open*Map.* ?

[Paul Johnson]

Nic Roets wrote:
> Hi Russ,
> 
> Does http://www.opengreenmap.org/ count ? The only thing that "open" 
> about them is that they use FOSS and they are open to accepting pins in 
> a Google Map. (The same can be said about Google Earth, so they are as 
> open as the Democratic People's Republic of Korea is democratic)//

After a little poking, I would say, "Not yet, but soon."

I contacted OpenGreenMap about this after you brought it up, mostly 
because I thought the name was confusingly similar given the naming 
convention used by various sites rendering OSM data.  I received a 
response at 4:20PM local time from a Wendy E. Brawer.

She indicated that OGM has been considering OSM since day one, and that 
it is in the works presently.  I'm keeping the channel open if anybody 
has further suggestions.


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Re: [OSM-talk] Open*Map.* ?

[Sebastian Hohmann]

Russ Nelson schrieb:
> Is there a comprehensive listing of all Open*Map.* sites anywhere?  I  
> know of these:
> 
> http://OpenStreetMap.org
> http://OpenCycleMap.org
> http://OpenSeaMap.org
> http://OpenPisteMap.org
> http://OpenMtBMap.org
> 
> And then there's the sites which have a different style of domain name  
> but which fit into the pattern:
> http://OpenTopoMap.org -> http://toposm.com
> 

I'm not sure if you mean that, but some SlippyMaps that use OSM are 
listed here: http://osmtools.de/osmlinks/

Greetings

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Re: [OSM-talk] Cathedral or chapel

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2009/6/8 Blaž Lorger :
> We certainly need better solution than JOSM presets historic=wayside_cross and
> historic=wayside_shrine. But with your suggestion there would be hundreds or
> even thousands values for tag place_of_worship.

well, there are not so many different levels, but it might differ from
denomination to denomination, not to talk about different religions...

> Maybe we should just differentiate on size and build type: building hosting
> 20+ people, building hosting 1-19 people, built structure but person can not
> enter (wayside_shrine), simple marker (wayside_cross, painted signs) and no
> markings (it is just holy place). I guess we also should not forget tents,
> wooden shacks, ...
> Such places could also be areas.

exactly, and by the size of the area you could try to guess the
importance (which will not always be true in the case of small
buildings, but surely you won't find a huge one that is not
important). I think it makes sense to have the basic levels of church
hierarchy in our datamodel. Height of the tower might also be quite
interesting (and useful for 3D-Model-makers).

Martin

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Re: [OSM-talk] Wanted feature for API 0.7 ??

[Eugene Alvin Villar]

On Tue, Jun 9, 2009 at 2:08 AM, Frederik Ramm  wrote:

>  I was actually trying to suggest that it might, in some cases, really
> make sense for things to be shared between the then and the now. If you
> take the Parthenon in Rome, then the geometry should be pretty much the
> same between now and ancient times, and as you say, refining the
> geometry of today's tourism=attraction should ideally also improve the
> ancient place_of_worship=church. This could not be done if you have
> Ancient Rome on a separate server.
>
> Much as we pride ourselves in topological correctness - for us, a
> junction is not where two linear shapes happen to intersect, but an
> explicitly placed node that, if moved, will modify both shapes -, I
> would also love to see continuity in the temporal dimension, i.e. I
> would prefer the Parthenon to use the same nodes, then and now, because
> it *is* the same building.
>

But what if there was a huge earthquake and the location of the Parthenon
(wait... isn't this in Greece, not Rome?) moved by 10 meters because the
underlying tectonic plate shifted? It's still the same building but the
nodes need to have different locations depending on the time (i.e., before
earthquake and after earthquake).
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Re: [OSM-talk] Wanted feature for API 0.7 ??

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2009/6/8 Frederik Ramm :
> I was actually trying to suggest that it might, in some cases, really
> make sense for things to be shared between the then and the now. If you
> take the Parthenon in Rome, then the geometry should be pretty much the
> same between now and ancient times, and as you say, refining the
> geometry of today's tourism=attraction should ideally also improve the
> ancient place_of_worship=church. This could not be done if you have
> Ancient Rome on a separate server.

sorry, but to prevent confusion, I'd like to put some details right: I
guess you are talking about the pantheon (the parthenon is in Athens):
today's tourism=attraction is still a place_of_worship=church (maybe
the ancient one never was a church but a place_of_worship it
definitely was). The geometry for some time was quite different, as
Bernini constructed to towers upon the front part (pronaos):
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/45/Roma_Pantheon_c1835.jpg/800px-Roma_Pantheon_c1835.jpg
but they were brought down in late 19th century.

The problem is, that usually you won't find a place after 2000 years
like it was before. The ground will rise, people will construct upon,
others might tear down (look here for instance, medieval construction
on top/inside of a roma theatre, quite common, you can find this in
France too: http://mw2.google.com/mw-panoramio/photos/medium/20763.jpg).
Todays state is just what is left, the ancient state might be
different (even the massive pyramids of egypt shrunk a little bit due
to erosion)

What I try to point out: if someone wants to put data of ancient Rome
in OSM, it will most probably not be based on the way we usually
collect data. I will be some import from archeological surveys. You
might want to update the today-layer based on this data (if you know,
which part exactly is which in todays building), but you definitely
won't want some yahoo-aerial painter to mess with your cm-precise
archeological data ;-).

> Much as we pride ourselves in topological correctness - for us, a
> junction is not where two linear shapes happen to intersect, but an
> explicitly placed node that, if moved, will modify both shapes -, I
> would also love to see continuity in the temporal dimension, i.e. I
> would prefer the Parthenon to use the same nodes, then and now, because
> it *is* the same building.

to give another example:
this building is roughly 100 years, but the question whether it is the
same is not easy to answer, as it was partly reconstructed:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/de/0/00/Berliner_dom_1900.jpg
http://de.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Datei:Berliner_Dom_1964_western_front.jpg&filetimestamp=20071223215903
http://de.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Datei:2006_Berliner_Dom_Front.jpg&filetimestamp=20061030222839

older buildings usually have much more phases and therefore it really
get's a specialist's issue to discover, which part is from when. On
the other hand there is already lots of this kind of research and if
we can win these people to insert their data into our db, it would be
a great source for many scopes.

I would also like this, but I see lots of obstacles as we usually are
not archeologists.

Another possible problem for very old buildings could raise from WGS84
and plate tectonics. Not sure about this (maybe WGS84 considers
this?).

> I guess this has the potential to be hellishly complex but also fun.
+1

cheers,
Martin

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Re: [OSM-talk] Wanted feature for API 0.7 ??

[Frederik Ramm]

Hi,

Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
> I guess you are talking about the pantheon (the parthenon is in Athens)

What an embarassment ;-) you're right of course. I was thinking of Rome 
not Greece.

Bye
Frederik

-- 
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