[OSM-talk] Vandalism detection

[Gary68]

Hi!

Since we had a few "incidents" discussed here earlier that month I
created a wiki page

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Detect_Vandalism

Of course right now we do only have a few tools at hand, but we do have
them! Use them!

The page also lists a few ideas how to further improve vandalism
detection. If you have any ideas, please add them.

If I find the right approach I might program something in that
direction.

Cheers

gary68
Gerhard



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[OSM-talk] creating shapefile of postcodes

[maning sambale]

I wanted to create a similar shapefile like this
(http://old-dev.openstreetmap.org/~random/postcodes/) for my area.
The first step is to extract postcodes in OSM.
The problem there several postcode variations in the database

addr:postcode
postal_code
is_in:zip

Some are in node (POIs) others in ways (building).  Any advise on
extracting this data as input to makeShapeColoured.py?



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[OSM-talk] Seoul

[Raphael Studer]

Hi,

I've found a lot of hospitals in Seoul:
http://www.informationfreeway.org/index.php?lat=37.50829282&lon=127.0368347&zoom=14&layers=BF000F
Could someone check, if they are realy there?

This looks also very nice:
http://www.informationfreeway.org/index.php?lat=37.5760761&lon=126.97864158&zoom=13&layers=BF000F

Cheers,
Raphael

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Re: [OSM-talk] creating shapefile of postcodes

[Steve Chilton]

James
 
Sorry to hear that.
Thanks for the warning.
Speak sometime.
 
STEVE

-Original Message- 
From: talk-boun...@openstreetmap.org on behalf of maning sambale 
Sent: Tue 08/09/2009 10:26 
To: osm-talk 
Cc: 
Subject: [OSM-talk] creating shapefile of postcodes



I wanted to create a similar shapefile like this
(http://old-dev.openstreetmap.org/~random/postcodes/) for my area.
The first step is to extract postcodes in OSM.
The problem there several postcode variations in the database

addr:postcode
postal_code
is_in:zip

Some are in node (POIs) others in ways (building).  Any advise on
extracting this data as input to makeShapeColoured.py?



--
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maning
--
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Re: [OSM-talk] creating shapefile of postcodes

[John Smith]

2009/9/8 maning sambale :
> I wanted to create a similar shapefile like this
> (http://old-dev.openstreetmap.org/~random/postcodes/) for my area.
> The first step is to extract postcodes in OSM.
> The problem there several postcode variations in the database
>
> addr:postcode
> postal_code
> is_in:zip
>
> Some are in node (POIs) others in ways (building).  Any advise on
> extracting this data as input to makeShapeColoured.py?

The simple case is boundaries, you might be able to use info from POIs
to create a boundary but I wouldn't use them to generate a map like
that.

is_in is being replaced with boundaries so you don't need to tag every
single node/way/relation with is_in same with addr:postcode I'm
guessing.

All the postcode boundaries in Australia have been tagged as
postal_code and were that way before I became involved so I'm not sure
if this is the best tag to use or not but it was already in use and
will keep getting used for consistency reasons.

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[OSM-talk] source=(survey, yahoo, gps...)

[Valent Turkovic]

Hi,
I can see that Potlach support source tag but JOSM doesn't.

You can see the example here:
http://bayimg.com/image/dadjnaacm.jpg


Do you use source tag? Why and how, please explain? I read the wiki page 
but I don't see many people use it and I'm wondering why.


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Re: [OSM-talk] Seoul

[Andrew Errington]

On Tue, September 8, 2009 19:09, Raphael Studer wrote:
> Hi,
>
>
> I've found a lot of hospitals in Seoul:
> http://www.informationfreeway.org/index.php?lat=37.50829282&lon=127.036834
> 7&zoom=14&layers=BF000F
> Could someone check, if they are realy there?

This is a side-effect of a bulk-upload.  In Korea clinics and private
doctors are known as 'hospitals', as well as hospitals.  At least, I think
so.  They need to be changed to something other than 'hospital', but it
will take a while as there are only a handful of mappers in Korea.

>
> This looks also very nice:
> http://www.informationfreeway.org/index.php?lat=37.5760761&lon=126.9786415
> 8&zoom=13&layers=BF000F

Looks like a font size issue in the renderer.

By the way, I just requested the creation of a talk-ko mailing list, but
nothing's happening there yet (only a handful of mappers here!). 
Hopefully this sort of thing can be brought up and solved.

Thanks,

Andrew


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Re: [OSM-talk] source=(survey, yahoo, gps...)

[John Smith]

2009/9/8 Valent Turkovic :
> Hi,
> I can see that Potlach support source tag but JOSM doesn't.
>
> You can see the example here:
> http://bayimg.com/image/dadjnaacm.jpg
>
>
> Do you use source tag? Why and how, please explain? I read the wiki page
> but I don't see many people use it and I'm wondering why.

Annoying isn't it, I wish everyone would tag the source of everything
properly so roads don't get shifted because people assume it was from
low-res sat etc depending where it is.

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Re: [OSM-talk] source=(survey, yahoo, gps...)

[Lennard]

Valent Turkovic wrote:
> I can see that Potlach support source tag but JOSM doesn't.

> Do you use source tag? Why and how, please explain? I read the wiki page 
> but I don't see many people use it and I'm wondering why.

JOSM supports addition of any tag, provided you can type, so I don't see 
why you'd say it doesn't support source=*. You're not always, every 
time, relying only on built in presets, are you?

-- 
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Re: [OSM-talk] source=(survey, yahoo, gps...)

[Iván Sánchez Ortega]

El Martes, 8 de Septiembre de 2009, Valent Turkovic escribió:
> Do you use source tag? Why and how, please explain? I read the wiki page
> but I don't see many people use it and I'm wondering why.

JOSM dev version being able to tag changeset + source tag = win.

It would be very nice to have JOSM add a source tag to the changeset if a WMS 
layer has been used during editing, though. Would make my life a lot easier 
and not forget about those source=yahoo tags.

-- 
--
Iván Sánchez Ortega 

Un ordenador no es un televisor ni un microondas, es una herramienta compleja.

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Re: [OSM-talk] source=(survey, yahoo, gps...)

[John Smith]

2009/9/8 Iván Sánchez Ortega :

> It would be very nice to have JOSM add a source tag to the changeset if a WMS
> layer has been used during editing, though. Would make my life a lot easier
> and not forget about those source=yahoo tags.

What if they use GPX files and a WMS layer?

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Re: [OSM-talk] source=(survey, yahoo, gps...)

[Iván Sánchez Ortega]

El Martes, 8 de Septiembre de 2009, John Smith escribió:
> 2009/9/8 Iván Sánchez Ortega :
> > It would be very nice to have JOSM add a source tag to the changeset if a
> > WMS layer has been used during editing, though. Would make my life a lot
> > easier and not forget about those source=yahoo tags.
>
> What if they use GPX files and a WMS layer?

source="survey; yahoo; WMS"

-- 
--
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http://ivan.sanchezortega.es
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Re: [OSM-talk] source=(survey, yahoo, gps...)

[John Smith]

2009/9/8 John Smith :
> 2009/9/8 Iván Sánchez Ortega :
>
>> It would be very nice to have JOSM add a source tag to the changeset if a WMS
>> layer has been used during editing, though. Would make my life a lot easier
>> and not forget about those source=yahoo tags.
>
> What if they use GPX files and a WMS layer?
>

Oh and what if someone edits them after they've been created, this
would have to be pulled from the changeset histories so it could be
displayed etc.

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Re: [OSM-talk] source=(survey, yahoo, gps...)

[Iván Sánchez Ortega]

El Martes, 8 de Septiembre de 2009, John Smith escribió:
> 2009/9/8 John Smith :
> > 2009/9/8 Iván Sánchez Ortega :
> >> It would be very nice to have JOSM add a source tag to the changeset if
> >> a WMS layer has been used during editing, though. Would make my life a
> >> lot easier and not forget about those source=yahoo tags.
> >
> > What if they use GPX files and a WMS layer?
>
> Oh and what if someone edits them after they've been created, this
> would have to be pulled from the changeset histories so it could be
> displayed etc.

No - source tags go into the new changesets, you do not touch past changesets. 
When you want to check the sources of the data, you check for all the 
changesets.

Keep in mind that paranoid OSMers like me think that sources "contaminate" the 
data, even if that piece of data is modified afterwards.

And, for example, I may draw a street using Y!, but somebody may modify just 
the name of the street during a mapping party. No need to delete the 
source=yahoo of the previous changeset.

-- 
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Re: [OSM-talk] Seoul

[Michael Collinson]

At 12:40 08/09/2009, Andrew Errington wrote:
>By the way, I just requested the creation of a talk-ko mailing list, but
>nothing's happening there yet (only a handful of mappers here!).
>Hopefully this sort of thing can be brought up and solved.

Subscribe to talk-ko at

http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo

Mike


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Re: [OSM-talk] source=(survey, yahoo, gps...)

[John Smith]

2009/9/8 Iván Sánchez Ortega :

> And, for example, I may draw a street using Y!, but somebody may modify just
> the name of the street during a mapping party. No need to delete the
> source=yahoo of the previous changeset.

which is why you use source:name=*

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Re: [OSM-talk] source=(survey, yahoo, gps...)

[Someoneelse]

Iván Sánchez Ortega wrote:
> El Martes, 8 de Septiembre de 2009, John Smith escribió:
>> 2009/9/8 Iván Sánchez Ortega :
>>> It would be very nice to have JOSM add a source tag to the changeset if a
>>> WMS layer has been used during editing, though. Would make my life a lot
>>> easier and not forget about those source=yahoo tags.
>> What if they use GPX files and a WMS layer?
> 
> source="survey; yahoo; WMS"
> 

(if we're talking about source tags on ways, nodes and relations)

Please no!  If I'm trying to reconcile a GPS track with an existing 
feature that doesn't help me tell if my new track's inaccurate or is a 
correction to a previously traced item.  It's far more useful to have 
"source=GPS" (or whatever) on each way (and to update them when they get 
modified).

Cheers,
Andy

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Re: [OSM-talk] Seoul

[Marc Schütz]

> > This looks also very nice:
> >
> http://www.informationfreeway.org/index.php?lat=37.5760761&lon=126.97864158&zoom=13&layers=BF000F
> 
> Looks like a font size issue in the renderer.

No, the problem is the hundreds of place=town. Most of these should probably 
suburbs.

Besides that, there are also a lot of amenity=arts_centre (even more than 
place=town). These also look suspicious.

Regards, Marc


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Re: [OSM-talk] source=(survey, yahoo, gps...)

[Michael Collinson]

At 11:40 08/09/2009, Valent Turkovic wrote:
>Do you use source tag? Why and how, please explain? I read the wiki page
>but I don't see many people use it and I'm wondering why.

I try to put it on everything I map. It shows fellow mappers how 
accurate my contribution is. They can make a more intelligent 
decision about whether to change it according to their own sources of 
information.

source=survey

"I went there. I took pictures/made notes. The tags and geometry are 
correct. Ways were made with GPS tracks, they should be good but may 
have artifacts."

(I should really use the gps tag as well, but I am lazy)

source=yahoo_imagery
source=Yahoo

"I traced this from Yahoo imagery. Details are not easy to see so 
things like road intersections should be checked."

source=npe

(UK) "I traced this from an old map. Relative position of the feature 
should be accurate but absolute location may not be accurate. The 
feature may have changed or gone."

source=npe;local_knowledge

"I traced this from a map. I know the feature is still there and that 
my tags are correct."

source=landsat

"Hey, if you can get a  better source, please change."

source=interpolation

"I went there but guessed the outline (buildings, sports pitches, ...)"

Mike 


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Re: [OSM-talk] source=(survey, yahoo, gps...)

[Shaun McDonald]

On 8 Sep 2009, at 12:21, Someoneelse wrote:


Iván Sánchez Ortega wrote:

El Martes, 8 de Septiembre de 2009, John Smith escribió:

2009/9/8 Iván Sánchez Ortega :
It would be very nice to have JOSM add a source tag to the  
changeset if a
WMS layer has been used during editing, though. Would make my  
life a lot

easier and not forget about those source=yahoo tags.

What if they use GPX files and a WMS layer?


source="survey; yahoo; WMS"



(if we're talking about source tags on ways, nodes and relations)

Please no!  If I'm trying to reconcile a GPS track with an existing
feature that doesn't help me tell if my new track's inaccurate or is a
correction to a previously traced item.  It's far more useful to have
"source=GPS" (or whatever) on each way (and to update them when they  
get

modified).



I'm not going to waste my time updating a source tag on every node,  
way or relation that I touch. However I'm happy to add ti to the  
changeset where it belongs.


The tools can be improved to look up the tags of all the changesets in  
the history of a particular object. I think that this will give better  
information as to the sources of the edits over time.


Shaun



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Re: [OSM-talk] source=(survey, yahoo, gps...)

[Valent Turkovic]

On Tue, 08 Sep 2009 12:43:22 +0200, Lennard wrote:

> why you'd say it doesn't support source=*. You're not always, every
> time, relying only on built in presets, are you?

Presets speedup many things, so it would be nice to have also presets for 
source= tag.



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[OSM-talk] Address interpolation

[Valent Turkovic]

Hi, I'm using address interpolation for the first time so I would like to 
ask if somebody can check if I did it ok or if there are some errors:

http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=45.544703&lon=18.718653&zoom=18&layers=B000FTF

Thank you in advance!



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Re: [OSM-talk] source=(survey, yahoo, gps...)

[Liz]

On Tue, 8 Sep 2009, Shaun McDonald wrote:
> I'm not going to waste my time updating a source tag on every node,  
> way or relation that I touch. However I'm happy to add ti to the  
> changeset where it belongs.

It's actually quite easy in JOSM
you mass select them and add the tag


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Re: [OSM-talk] OpenRouteService fail

[Valent Turkovic]

On Mon, 07 Sep 2009 23:57:10 +0200, Pascal Neis wrote:

> Of course planned, but atm I can not say when it will happen.
> 
> pascal

Thank you for all your hard work and effort in making ORS service.

I have one related question - do turn restrictions and oneway streets 
"work" on ORS service?



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Re: [OSM-talk] source=(survey, yahoo, gps...)

[David Earl]

On 08/09/2009 13:06, Liz wrote:
> On Tue, 8 Sep 2009, Shaun McDonald wrote:
>> I'm not going to waste my time updating a source tag on every node,  
>> way or relation that I touch. However I'm happy to add ti to the  
>> changeset where it belongs.
> 
> It's actually quite easy in JOSM
> you mass select them and add the tag

Maybe 80% of what I'm adding are residential roads, so what I do is make 
a way with
   highway=residential
   name=xx (I mean that literally, two x's)
   source=survey
then copy it, either select my untagged ways and Paste Tags 
(SHIFT+CTRL+V) or do that as I go along. Then all I have to do is change 
the name for each one based on my audio notes. Even when it isn't 
residential, I find it quicker to start with this and change than to 
apply it individually. Also, I can check for ways I've missed by 
searching for xx before upload - though the checker can kind of do this, 
it includes everything, not just the things I've been working on.

David

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Re: [OSM-talk] source=(survey, yahoo, gps...)

[Tobias Knerr]

Liz wrote:
> On Tue, 8 Sep 2009, Shaun McDonald wrote:
>> I'm not going to waste my time updating a source tag on every node,  
>> way or relation that I touch. However I'm happy to add ti to the  
>> changeset where it belongs.
> 
> It's actually quite easy in JOSM
> you mass select them and add the tag

If mass selecting is possible, the changeset would have been the better
place, imo. Tags on individual objects do only make sense if you need to
add different source information for each object (or maybe even each
tag). And that's as much work in JOSM as everywhere else.

Tobias Knerr

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Re: [OSM-talk] Address interpolation

[Brian Quinion]

Hi,

On Tue, Sep 8, 2009 at 1:05 PM, Valent
Turkovic wrote:
> Hi, I'm using address interpolation for the first time so I would like to
> ask if somebody can check if I did it ok or if there are some errors:
>
> http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=45.544703&lon=18.718653&zoom=18&layers=B000FTF

They seem OK - and my processing code can interpret them (yeh!) but
I'd suggest a couple of changes

For

http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/node/489432179

I'd suggest moving all the following tags

addr:city = Osijek
addr:country = 385
addr:postcode = 31000
addr:street = Starigradska

to the way (rather than the individual nodes).  And I'd suggest that
addr:country = 385 is unlikely to be understood.

In general creating a polygon / relation for anything above street
level is probably more useful than adding it to individual nodes (or
even ways) - so just draw a rough polygon for the city of Osijek and
tag that instead.

--
 Brian

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[OSM-talk] [Fwd: Re: source=(survey, yahoo, gps...)]

[David Earl]

On 08/09/2009 13:16, Tobias Knerr wrote:
> Liz wrote:
>> On Tue, 8 Sep 2009, Shaun McDonald wrote:
>>> I'm not going to waste my time updating a source tag on every node,  
>>> way or relation that I touch. However I'm happy to add ti to the  
>>> changeset where it belongs.
>> It's actually quite easy in JOSM
>> you mass select them and add the tag
> 
> If mass selecting is possible, the changeset would have been the better
> place, imo. Tags on individual objects do only make sense if you need to
> add different source information for each object (or maybe even each
> tag). And that's as much work in JOSM as everywhere else.

It does differ: while most of a survey will be survey, I am also
estimating and interpolating and using landsat and joining things up
with npe. It's not a property of the changeset.

David



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Re: [OSM-talk] creating shapefile of postcodes

[maning sambale]

using the postcode-code, I get this error

python makeShapeColoured.py -h
Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "makeShapeColoured.py", line 34, in 
import shapelib.shapelib as shp, shapelib.dbflib as dbf
ImportError: No module named shapelib.shapelib


On Tue, Sep 8, 2009 at 6:30 PM, John Smith wrote:
> 2009/9/8 maning sambale :
>> I wanted to create a similar shapefile like this
>> (http://old-dev.openstreetmap.org/~random/postcodes/) for my area.
>> The first step is to extract postcodes in OSM.
>> The problem there several postcode variations in the database
>>
>> addr:postcode
>> postal_code
>> is_in:zip
>>
>> Some are in node (POIs) others in ways (building).  Any advise on
>> extracting this data as input to makeShapeColoured.py?
>
> The simple case is boundaries, you might be able to use info from POIs
> to create a boundary but I wouldn't use them to generate a map like
> that.
>
> is_in is being replaced with boundaries so you don't need to tag every
> single node/way/relation with is_in same with addr:postcode I'm
> guessing.
>
> All the postcode boundaries in Australia have been tagged as
> postal_code and were that way before I became involved so I'm not sure
> if this is the best tag to use or not but it was already in use and
> will keep getting used for consistency reasons.
>



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Re: [OSM-talk] source=(survey, yahoo, gps...)

[Valent Turkovic]

On Tue, 08 Sep 2009 22:06:28 +1000, Liz wrote:

> It's actually quite easy in JOSM
> you mass select them and add the tag

I know it is possible, but I would love if JOSM would offer options like 
Potlach does.



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Re: [OSM-talk] source=(survey, yahoo, gps...)

[Lennard]

Valent Turkovic wrote:

> Presets speedup many things, so it would be nice to have also presets for 
> source= tag.

Then create your own presets for your desired source=* tags.

-- 
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Re: [OSM-talk] source=(survey, yahoo, gps...)

[Celso González]

On Tue, Sep 08, 2009 at 12:22:48PM +, Valent Turkovic wrote:
> On Tue, 08 Sep 2009 22:06:28 +1000, Liz wrote:
> 
> > It's actually quite easy in JOSM
> > you mass select them and add the tag
> 
> I know it is possible, but I would love if JOSM would offer options like 
> Potlach does.

Its easy to create an .xml file and add it to the presets.


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Re: [OSM-talk] source=(survey, yahoo, gps...)

[Ken Guest]

http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/newbies/2007-October/000625.htmlmay
be of interest - if it isn't in the wiki.
just discovered this myself now too.

k.

On Tue, Sep 8, 2009 at 1:29 PM, Lennard  wrote:

> Valent Turkovic wrote:
>
> > Presets speedup many things, so it would be nice to have also presets for
> > source= tag.
>
> Then create your own presets for your desired source=* tags.
>
> --
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>
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Re: [OSM-talk] [Fwd: Re: source=(survey, yahoo, gps...)]

[Tobias Knerr]

David Earl wrote:
> On 08/09/2009 13:16, Tobias Knerr wrote:
>> Liz wrote:
>>> It's actually quite easy in JOSM
>>> you mass select them and add the tag
>> If mass selecting is possible, the changeset would have been the better
>> place, imo. Tags on individual objects do only make sense if you need to
>> add different source information for each object (or maybe even each
>> tag). And that's as much work in JOSM as everywhere else.
> 
> It does differ: while most of a survey will be survey, I am also
> estimating and interpolating and using landsat and joining things up
> with npe. It's not a property of the changeset.

So how do you mass-select exactly those objects you created based on a
given source (mass-selection was the topic of the mail I replied to)?

Regardless of mass-selection, "I used npe, landsat and survey" is a
valid property of the changeset. It may be possible to give more
detailed information, of course. But most mappers don't add source tags,
and a changeset source would provide at least some information. You can
continue to add source tags to individual objects if you think it's
worth the effort - it's your decision, as with all tags in OSM.

Tobias Knerr

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Re: [OSM-talk] OpenRouteService fail

[Jonas Krückel]

Am 08.09.2009 um 14:11 schrieb Valent Turkovic :

> On Mon, 07 Sep 2009 23:57:10 +0200, Pascal Neis wrote:
>
>> Of course planned, but atm I can not say when it will happen.
>>
>> pascal
>
> Thank you for all your hard work and effort in making ORS service.
>
> I have one related question - do turn restrictions

No

> and oneway streets
> "work" on ORS service?

Yes

See  http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Routing/online_routers for  
more information about that.

Jonas
>
>
>
> -- 
> pratite me na twitteru - www.twitter.com/valentt
> http://kernelreloaded.blog385.com/
> linux, blog, anime, spirituality, windsurf, wireless
> registered as user #367004 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org 
> .
> ICQ: 2125241, Skype: valent.turkovic
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] creating shapefile of postcodes

[maning sambale]

I already installed shapelib in ubunut jaunty and I still get the same error
python makeShapeColoured.py
/home/maning/gisrs/osm_postcode/combined_postcode.csv
Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "makeShapeColoured.py", line 34, in 
import shapelib.shapelib as shp, shapelib.dbflib as dbf
ImportError: No module named shapelib.shapelib

Please help

On Tue, Sep 8, 2009 at 8:25 PM, maning
sambale wrote:
> using the postcode-code, I get this error
>
> python makeShapeColoured.py -h
> Traceback (most recent call last):
>  File "makeShapeColoured.py", line 34, in 
>    import shapelib.shapelib as shp, shapelib.dbflib as dbf
> ImportError: No module named shapelib.shapelib
>
>
> On Tue, Sep 8, 2009 at 6:30 PM, John Smith wrote:
>> 2009/9/8 maning sambale :
>>> I wanted to create a similar shapefile like this
>>> (http://old-dev.openstreetmap.org/~random/postcodes/) for my area.
>>> The first step is to extract postcodes in OSM.
>>> The problem there several postcode variations in the database
>>>
>>> addr:postcode
>>> postal_code
>>> is_in:zip
>>>
>>> Some are in node (POIs) others in ways (building).  Any advise on
>>> extracting this data as input to makeShapeColoured.py?
>>
>> The simple case is boundaries, you might be able to use info from POIs
>> to create a boundary but I wouldn't use them to generate a map like
>> that.
>>
>> is_in is being replaced with boundaries so you don't need to tag every
>> single node/way/relation with is_in same with addr:postcode I'm
>> guessing.
>>
>> All the postcode boundaries in Australia have been tagged as
>> postal_code and were that way before I became involved so I'm not sure
>> if this is the best tag to use or not but it was already in use and
>> will keep getting used for consistency reasons.
>>
>
>
>
> --
> cheers,
> maning
> --
> "Freedom is still the most radical idea of all" -N.Branden
> wiki: http://esambale.wikispaces.com/
> blog: http://epsg4253.wordpress.com/
> --
>



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Re: [OSM-talk] source=(survey, yahoo, gps...)

[John Smith]

2009/9/9 d f :
> John
>
> Surely if a way needs shifting, it needs shifting, irrelevant of what the
> source was?

Is you GPS more accurate than mine?

If you answer yes to the above how do you know this?

If 10 people do a GPS trace of the same way, the way could move 10
times without the right information being presented to later users.

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Re: [OSM-talk] source=(survey, yahoo, gps...)

[d f]

John

Surely if a way needs shifting, it needs shifting, irrelevant of what the 
source was?
-

I've seen people, quite rightly, removing nonsensical source tags such as 
Source=JOSM/Potlatch!!

JOSM & Ptlatch are _not_ the source, just the means by which to input the data 
into OSM.

The wiki page for source doesn't, for some strange reason, include GPS in its 
list of Core Values. Any idea why?

If I was to add a source tag I would quite often use "My Eyes", which to me is 
the most important way of collecting data.

Dave F.






From: John Smith 
To: Valent Turkovic 
Cc: talk@openstreetmap.org
Sent: Tuesday, 8 September, 2009 11:42:24
Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] source=(survey, yahoo, gps...)

2009/9/8 Valent Turkovic :
> Hi,
> I can see that Potlach support source tag but JOSM doesn't.
>
> You can see the example here:
> http://bayimg.com/image/dadjnaacm.jpg
>
>
> Do you use source tag? Why and how, please explain? I read the wiki page
> but I don't see many people use it and I'm wondering why.

Annoying isn't it, I wish everyone would tag the source of everything
properly so roads don't get shifted because people assume it was from
low-res sat etc depending where it is.

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Re: [OSM-talk] source=(survey, yahoo, gps...)

[d f]

> ...without the right information being presented to later users.

Not sure what you men by that. However...

If there are 10 traces by GPS for a way & I think it's out of alignment from 
the average of them, then I would move it.
Irrelevant of what the source tag for the way.

Cheers
Dave F.


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Re: [OSM-talk] source=(survey, yahoo, gps...)

[Donald Allwright]

>If there are 10 traces by GPS for a way & I think it's out of alignment from 
>the average of them, then I would move it.
>Irrelevant of what the source tag for the way.

Please don't do this unless you have clear evidence it's wrong, you could well 
be messing up perfectly accurate data.

What if all 10 people walked down the same side of a wide street, and made an 
estimate of the necessary offset of the centre line? In this case you'd be 
messing up data that were already accurate. Unless you take your own GPS trace, 
you can't be sure if that's happened or not. I have in the past done this and 
walked across the street at one point in order to get a reference for the 
width, then added a deliberate offset accordingly. Not all roads are easily 
walkable on both sides, so this is not an unlikely scenario.

Donald



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Re: [OSM-talk] source=(survey, yahoo, gps...)

[John Smith]

2009/9/9 d f :
>
>
>> ...without the right information being presented to later users.
>
> Not sure what you men by that. However...
>
> If there are 10 traces by GPS for a way & I think it's out of alignment from
> the average of them, then I would move it.
> Irrelevant of what the source tag for the way.

You don't have access to the 10 traces, I should have said assuming
none uploads the information how do you know your information is any
better than what already exists in the system?

Why would your information be more accurate if no one sourced where
their information came from.

Simply put you can't know, you can only assume your information is
better if there is no source information present.

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Re: [OSM-talk] source=(survey, yahoo, gps...)

[Mike N.]

There are some odd cases where even GPS averaging is not accurate enough to 
'micro adjust' a way by 1-3 meters.   One of which is where the sensor is 
inside a vehicle (not rooftop mounted) on some curves. I observe this by 
comparing multiple traces from multiple units and  the fact that they do not 
converge on a very good aerial image - even though the entry and exit traces 
match very well.


From: d f 
Sent: Tuesday, September 08, 2009 11:08 AM
Cc: talk@openstreetmap.org 
Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] source=(survey, yahoo, gps...)



> ...without the right information being presented to later users.

Not sure what you men by that. However...

If there are 10 traces by GPS for a way & I think it's out of alignment from 
the average of them, then I would move it.
Irrelevant of what the source tag for the way.

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Re: [OSM-talk] source=(survey, yahoo, gps...)

[John Smith]

2009/9/9 Mike N. :
> There are some odd cases where even GPS averaging is not accurate enough to
> 'micro adjust' a way by 1-3 meters.   One of which is where the sensor is
> inside a vehicle (not rooftop mounted) on some curves. I observe this by
> comparing multiple traces from multiple units and  the fact that they do not
> converge on a very good aerial image - even though the entry and exit traces
> match very well.

Assuming the aerial image has been aligned with known points to begin with :)

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Re: [OSM-talk] source=(survey, yahoo, gps...)

[d f]

From: Donald Allwright 
To: d f 
Cc: talk@openstreetmap.org
Sent: Tuesday, 8 September, 2009 16:25:41
Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] source=(survey, yahoo, gps...)




>If there are 10 traces by GPS for a way & I think it's out of alignment from 
>the average of them, then I would move it.
>Irrelevant of what the source tag for the way.

Please don't do this unless you have clear evidence it's wrong, you could well 
be messing up perfectly accurate data.

I course I wouldn't. I never said I would. It should go without saying that 
amendments should only be made with prior knowledge of the area.

What if all 10 people walked down the same side of a wide street, and made an 
estimate of the necessary offset of the centre line? In this case you'd be 
messing up data that were already accurate. Unless you take your own GPS trace, 
you can't be sure if that's happened or not. I have in the past done this and 
walked across the street at one point in order to get a reference for the 
width, then added a deliberate offset accordingly. 

That is one technique I use also to make my mapping as accurate as possible.

Cheers
Dave F.


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Re: [OSM-talk] source=(survey, yahoo, gps...)

[Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason]

On Tue, Sep 8, 2009 at 11:59 AM, Valent
Turkovic wrote:
> On Tue, 08 Sep 2009 12:43:22 +0200, Lennard wrote:
>
>> why you'd say it doesn't support source=*. You're not always, every
>> time, relying only on built in presets, are you?
>
> Presets speedup many things, so it would be nice to have also presets for
> source= tag.

Please file requests for JOSM enhancements in the JOSM bugtracker:
http://josm.openstreetmap.de

Its developers don't scour the mailing lists looking for new features
to implement, but they do look at their bugtracker.

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Re: [OSM-talk] Vandalism/user error?

[David Earl]

It's obviously nonsense - a way extending right across the globe! But it 
looks like scribbling, the kind of thing people do in Potlatch not 
realising they are editing the live map.

Despite the prompts at the beginning people STILL don't realise they are 
doing this. This is the second time this week I've seen his happen.

Richard - why do we still need this mode now you can save in Potlatch 
and groups of changes fit much better with changesets anyway?

David

On 08/09/2009 17:04, Chris Miller wrote:
> I just discovered a suspicious looking edit while working on a map splitter 
> tool (http://www.mkgmap.org.uk/page/tile-splitter), as follows:
> 
> http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/changeset/737502
> 
> The splitter tool ended up creating a separate area just for node 355719431, 
> which is completely on its own right out in the middle of the Pacific! To 
> me this way looks like a doodle from someone just playing around with osm. 
> It's the one and only edit from that user (hurkvan).
> 
> If it does indeed look like it shouldn't be there, could someone more 
> knowledgeable 
> than myself please delete it? I haven't done any editing of the osm data 
> before. (I do intend to learn at some point when I have time since I have 
> some good GPS tracklogs from remote countries that are yet to be mapped, 
> eg Bhutan.)
> 
> Many thanks,
> Chris
> 
> 
> 
> 
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[OSM-talk] Vandalism/user error?

[Chris Miller]

I just discovered a suspicious looking edit while working on a map splitter 
tool (http://www.mkgmap.org.uk/page/tile-splitter), as follows:

http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/changeset/737502

The splitter tool ended up creating a separate area just for node 355719431, 
which is completely on its own right out in the middle of the Pacific! To 
me this way looks like a doodle from someone just playing around with osm. 
It's the one and only edit from that user (hurkvan).

If it does indeed look like it shouldn't be there, could someone more 
knowledgeable 
than myself please delete it? I haven't done any editing of the osm data 
before. (I do intend to learn at some point when I have time since I have 
some good GPS tracklogs from remote countries that are yet to be mapped, 
eg Bhutan.)

Many thanks,
Chris




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Re: [OSM-talk] source=(survey, yahoo, gps...)

[d f]

>You don't have access to the 10 traces, 

Yes I would. In Potlatch if I press G or click the GPS icon it display all 
uploaded traces.


I should have said assuming
none uploads the information how do you know your information is any
better than what already exists in the system?

I don't. But I take the average of all the traces available. i thought this is 
what we were meant to do!
I'm sure I read it in the wiki somewhere.

Why would your information be more accurate if no one sourced where
their information came from.

It wouldn't! & I never said it would.
However just because someone tags theirs as being from a certain source doesn't 
make it necessarily more accurate than mine. 

For example 

Simply put you can't know, you can only assume your information is
better if there is no source information present.

If you take your policy I don't understand how anything can be updated once it 
been initially mapped!

General point about how I map:

I use a GPS (not the most accurate in the world)
I take photographs & _use_ them.
I take notes in a notepad.

& most importantly. I use my _eyes_

I've seen roads & especially railway lines, that I have knowledge of, that are 
mapped so inaccurately, such as curves being mapped in a single point, that if 
the vehicle/train was doing more than 20 mile an hour it would run off the 
road/rail.

I don't see the problem in amending that. Even if there are no other traces & 
irrelevant of the source tag.   

To clarify, if i didn't have knowledge of it, but still looked wrong. i 
wouldn't amended it.

Cheers
Dave F.


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[OSM-talk] Nokia World 2009 - Larry Kaplan Speech

[simon]

http://events.nokia.com/nokiaworld/home.htm
--
Keynote: Next Generation Maps
Larry Kaplan, President and CEO, Navteq
--

Talks about routing, data capture/processing...
Simon.



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Re: [OSM-talk] Seoul

[Ed Avis]

Shouldn't the name tags in Seoul also be fixed a bit?  Instead of a Hangul name
followed by a Latin-alphabet name in brackets, wouldn't it be better to tag
name...@hangul and name...@latin separately?

-- 
Ed Avis 


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Re: [OSM-talk] source=(survey, yahoo, gps...)

[Anthony]

On Tue, Sep 8, 2009 at 1:26 PM, John Smith wrote:
>
> it would be nice to tag things like GPS model, not just that it was
> from a GPS, some models are better than others and so on and so forth.


In which case you ought to just upload the GPS data, right?  GPX supports
identifying the GPS model as well as point by point accuracy data, doesn't
it?  I'm less sure whether or not OSM supports this.
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Re: [OSM-talk] source=(survey, yahoo, gps...)

[John Smith]

2009/9/9 d f :
> Yes I would. In Potlatch if I press G or click the GPS icon it display all
> uploaded traces.

It's a hypothetical and the GPS traces were not uploaded so you
wouldn't be able to download anything.

> I don't. But I take the average of all the traces available. i thought this
> is what we were meant to do!
> I'm sure I read it in the wiki somewhere.

That's assuming there is traces to download.

> It wouldn't! & I never said it would.
> However just because someone tags theirs as being from a certain source
> doesn't make it necessarily more accurate than mine.

If someone traces from low-res sat imagery and I use GPS I'm pretty
sure I know which is better quality data, however if there is no
source tags and the only sat data I have access to is low-res what
else am I supposed to assume?

> If you take your policy I don't understand how anything can be updated once
> it been initially mapped!

It's not a policy, it's a hypothetical situation where you are making
assumptions about the quality of data when you have nothing to base
those assumptions on. If something is tagged yahoo and I do a GPS
trace generally due to sat imagery being mis-aligned the GPS trace is
better.

> I don't see the problem in amending that. Even if there are no other traces
> & irrelevant of the source tag.

The point is, you are making a subjective decision over what you think
is right or not, if source tags were used more you could make
objective decisions based on more information being available to you,
it would be nice to tag things like GPS model, not just that it was
from a GPS, some models are better than others and so on and so forth.

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Re: [OSM-talk] talk Digest, Vol 61, Issue 27

[Bob]

Hi List,

The A57 and A607 edits below are incorrect to the best of my
knowledge.

--
Regards
Bob
Lincoln UK

On Mon, 07 Sep 2009 18:56:27 +0100, you wrote:


>   3. Re: RR8 - Possible International Vandal (assistance required
>  around Lincoln, England) (Someoneelse)
>Message: 3
>Date: Mon, 07 Sep 2009 01:24:42 +0100
>From: Someoneelse 
>Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] RR8 - Possible International Vandal
>   (assistance required around Lincoln, England)
>To: Talk Openstreetmap 
>Message-ID: <4aa452ca.6000...@mail.atownsend.org.uk>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
>Thomas Wood wrote:
>> Hi list,
>> Attention was drawn to the OSM user RR8 last night on IRC. It appears
>> that they have been producing /apparently/ deconstructive edits at a
>> high frequency since late Saturday evening (server time).
>> Edits primarily are the reclassification of highways to a different
>> level. This has occured frequently in the East Midlands (often
>> including a change of reference number that cannot be confirmed from
>> other sources), places in Ireland where under-construction motorways
>> have been marked as opened, and a few reclassifications elsewhere,
>> most notably Iceland.
>> 
>> The edits appear to look constructive, but are more likely to be
>> destructive. Ideally, someone local to the areas in question should
>> check a few of the changes, or we could get people from the mailing
>> list to consider the edits as a whole to decide what's to be done
>> about them.
>> 
>> http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/RR8/edits
>
>Sorry to drag this up again, but I wonder if anyone around Lincoln could 
>confirm the status of the A15?  It got changed by RR8 from Primary to 
>Trunk as part of the series of edits referred to above (the ways 
>concerned are 29480041, 29480046, 5042808, 29520168, 29520045, 29480048, 
>29480047, 29479263, 29479262, 29462340, 29462344, 29460689, 29460690, 
>29457824, 29457818, 29457821, 5042796, 5042797, 5038270, 3713242, and 
>3708395).  Can anyone confirm whether it should be primary or should be 
>trunk?



>Also, the stretch of the A57 from the A1 to Lincoln needs looking at. 
>The ways include 13781670, 38366466, 13781669, 35580773, 35577435, 
>23160625, 13781668 and a few others.  In places it's been changed to the 
>A158 - I've no idea if that's correct (but based on the "hit rate" of 
>other RR8 edits is unlikely to be).


>
>Also, the Tritton Road area of Lincoln (ways 5052965, 5052933, 5038112, 
>3713127, 3713110 among others), and the changes to the A607 and B1178.




>
>See http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/GB_revert_request_log for 
>changeset details.

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Re: [OSM-talk] Vandalism/user error?

[Matthias Versen]

Chris Miller wrote:

> than myself please delete it? I haven't done any editing of the osm data

Deleted...

Matthias


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Re: [OSM-talk] Vandalism/user error?

[Matthias Versen]

David Earl wrote:
> It's obviously nonsense - a way extending right across the globe! But it
> looks like scribbling, the kind of thing people do in Potlatch not
> realising they are editing the live map.
>
> Despite the prompts at the beginning people STILL don't realise they are
> doing this. This is the second time this week I've seen his happen.

The way is an old one, created an older potlatch Version.
I think the new prompt for Editing with save at the starts helps a lot.

Matthias


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Re: [OSM-talk] Google Street View copyright question

[Eric Wolf]

In general, using anything Google to generate information for OSM violates
Google's copyrights and possibly other copyrights that Google doesn't hold.
Google Street View images are geocoded information and definitely
copyrighted as such. They have special value in their geocoding. Using
images from Flickr is, perhaps, a little looser because any geocoding isn't
necessary part of the "information" conveyed in the art form of the
photograph - but that may be argued by the copyright owner.
Further, you should only be using satellite imagery to generate OSM data if
the copyright has been released for that purpose (like Yahoo's imagery in
the US) or if the imagery is provided without restriction (like USGS
imagery).

-Eric

-=--=---===---=--=-=--=---==---=--=-=-
Eric B. WolfNew! 720-334-7734
USGS Geographer
Center of Excellence in GIScience
PhD Student
CU-Boulder - Geography



On Tue, Sep 8, 2009 at 3:10 PM, Anthony  wrote:

> Is it okay to use Google Street View to confirm turning restrictions,
> street names, etc?  This seems like an obvious "yes" to me, but then, I
> would have said the same thing about tracing from a satellite photo, so I'm
> not going to try to guess international copyright law.
>
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[OSM-talk] OSM Data Used in Upcoming Monopoly Game

[Ian Dees]

Check this out:

http://blog.monopolycitystreets.com/2009/09/almost-there.html

Might be interesting to contact them and see what they're using the data
for.
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Re: [OSM-talk] Google Street View copyright question

[Jonathan Bennett]

Anthony wrote:
> Is it okay to use Google Street View to confirm turning restrictions, 
> street names, etc?  This seems like an obvious "yes" to me, but then, 
> I would have said the same thing about tracing from a satellite photo, 
> so I'm not going to try to guess international copyright law.
The simple answer is that Street View is still protected by copyright, 
and that by using it you agree to Google's terms and conditions, so 
unless you have specific permission to derive data from it, it's safest 
to assume you can't. We're generally paranoid about copyright 
infringement because we don't want to jeopardise the entire project for 
the sake of a relatively small gain (Street View tends to cover urban 
areas, which are easier to survey in person anyway).

You also need to consider that Street View still uses Google Maps as 
part of its interface (and possibly for the overlaid navigation data), 
so it's affected by the licence on that data.

However, Google does own the Street View pictures themselves in their 
entirety. If they, with the location and bearing of each one was made 
available to OSM under terms compatible with CC-BY-SA (or ODBL), then we 
could use them. We would need a way of accessing the images that made no 
reference to any other geodata (so the standard web interface would be 
out). It's something we'd need to negotiate, but we can't do it at 
present, unfortunately.

J.

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Re: [OSM-talk] Google Street View copyright question

[Stefan de Konink]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA512

Anthony schreef:
> Is it okay to use Google Street View to confirm turning restrictions,
> street names, etc?  This seems like an obvious "yes" to me, but then, I
> would have said the same thing about tracing from a satellite photo, so
> I'm not going to try to guess international copyright law.

I know that it is allowed to use copyrighted data to validate that your
own data is incorrect, to then, survey your own data again. But I don't
think you can take the shortcut... although again "who is going to
notice" especially with that kind of material.


Stefan
-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: GnuPG v2.0.11 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org

iEYEAREKAAYFAkqmyqUACgkQYH1+F2Rqwn291wCaA3daMmTnOSrt3YoQ8m0hiQyN
EmEAoJNmXw1F4DNfmKUWDmym6zm29iyB
=PHzn
-END PGP SIGNATURE-

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Re: [OSM-talk] OSM Data Used in Upcoming Monopoly Game

[Iván Sánchez Ortega]

El Martes, 8 de Septiembre de 2009, Ian Dees escribió:
> Check this out:
>
> http://blog.monopolycitystreets.com/2009/09/almost-there.html
>
> Might be interesting to contact them and see what they're using the data
> for.

Yeah, especially since they may be mixing OSM data with player data... and 
CC-by-sa should apply there...

/me laughs histerically



Anyway, I can't see any contact address... Comment on the blog might do it?

-- 
--
Iván Sánchez Ortega 

Toda convicción es una cárcel.- Friedrich Wilhelm Nietzsche.

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[OSM-talk] Google Street View copyright question

[Anthony]

Is it okay to use Google Street View to confirm turning restrictions, street
names, etc?  This seems like an obvious "yes" to me, but then, I would have
said the same thing about tracing from a satellite photo, so I'm not going
to try to guess international copyright law.
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Re: [OSM-talk] Google Street View copyright question

[Shaun McDonald]

On 8 Sep 2009, at 22:21, Eric Wolf wrote:

>
> Further, you should only be using satellite imagery to generate OSM  
> data if the copyright has been released for that purpose (like  
> Yahoo's imagery in the US) or if the imagery is provided without  
> restriction (like USGS imagery).

Why do you state Yahoo's imagery _in the US_, when in fact we are  
allowed to use it worldwide?

Shaun


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Re: [OSM-talk] Google Street View copyright question

[Eric Wolf]

Yes - but you are inherently deriving the location from the images
georeferencing. If the image were provided outside of the context of Google
Streets, you might be able to make the claim that looking at the image
doesn't violate the copyright. But the fact that the image contains
geospatially significant information and is geolocated makes this quite
dubious - and best avoided.
-Eric

-=--=---===---=--=-=--=---==---=--=-=-
Eric B. WolfNew! 720-334-7734
USGS Geographer
Center of Excellence in GIScience
PhD Student
CU-Boulder - Geography



On Tue, Sep 8, 2009 at 4:23 PM, David Muir Sharnoff  wrote:

> Google's forbids many things, but looking at an image and noting the
> turn restrictions (or other content) that you can see within it is not
> mentioned.   Such a use is not covered by "2 (b) copy, translate,
> modify, or make derivative works of the Content or any part thereof;"
> since the turn restrictions are something that you can see in the
> image -- not the image itself.
>
> -Dave
>
> On Tue, Sep 8, 2009 at 2:36 PM, Jonathan
> Bennett wrote:
> > Anthony wrote:
> >> Is it okay to use Google Street View to confirm turning restrictions,
> >> street names, etc?  This seems like an obvious "yes" to me, but then,
> >> I would have said the same thing about tracing from a satellite photo,
> >> so I'm not going to try to guess international copyright law.
> > The simple answer is that Street View is still protected by copyright,
> > and that by using it you agree to Google's terms and conditions, so
> > unless you have specific permission to derive data from it, it's safest
> > to assume you can't. We're generally paranoid about copyright
> > infringement because we don't want to jeopardise the entire project for
> > the sake of a relatively small gain (Street View tends to cover urban
> > areas, which are easier to survey in person anyway).
> >
> > You also need to consider that Street View still uses Google Maps as
> > part of its interface (and possibly for the overlaid navigation data),
> > so it's affected by the licence on that data.
> >
> > However, Google does own the Street View pictures themselves in their
> > entirety. If they, with the location and bearing of each one was made
> > available to OSM under terms compatible with CC-BY-SA (or ODBL), then we
> > could use them. We would need a way of accessing the images that made no
> > reference to any other geodata (so the standard web interface would be
> > out). It's something we'd need to negotiate, but we can't do it at
> > present, unfortunately.
> >
> > J.
> >
> > ___
> > talk mailing list
> > talk@openstreetmap.org
> > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
> >
> >
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Google Street View copyright question

[Jonathan Bennett]

David Muir Sharnoff wrote:
> Google's forbids many things, but looking at an image and noting the
> turn restrictions (or other content) that you can see within it is not
> mentioned.   Such a use is not covered by "2 (b) copy, translate,
> modify, or make derivative works of the Content or any part thereof;"
> since the turn restrictions are something that you can see in the
> image -- not the image itself.
> 
> -Dave

Google's (or rather Tele Atlas's) lawyers would argue you were indeed 
making a derivative work, and they can afford better lawyers than us -- 
unless you have a huge pot of cash you want to use to test this case?

As I said, there's probably a deal to be done with Google where we have 
permission to use the images, but it will take work and diplomacy.

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Re: [OSM-talk] source=(survey, yahoo, gps...)

[Roy Wallace]

On Tue, Sep 8, 2009 at 7:40 PM, Valent
Turkovic wrote:
>
> Do you use source tag? Why and how, please explain? I read the wiki page
> but I don't see many people use it and I'm wondering why.

Whenever I add a tag, e.g. TAG (could be name, or amenity for example)
to a node/way/relation, I also tag with source:TAG=*.

The value I assign is source:TAG=survey if I have visited the area and
taken notes/GPS trace/audio clips etc. at that location.

If I add a new node/way, source=* is sufficient in place of source:TAG=*.

I do all of this in JOSM, and it takes me very little additional time
to add this valuable information.

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Re: [OSM-talk] Google Street View copyright question

[Kenneth Gonsalves]

On Wednesday 09 Sep 2009 2:40:49 am Anthony wrote:
> Is it okay to use Google Street View to confirm turning restrictions,
> street names, etc?  This seems like an obvious "yes" to me, but then, I
> would have said the same thing about tracing from a satellite photo, so I'm
> not going to try to guess international copyright law.

not ok - if google has made a mistake (or an easter egg) and you incorporate 
that in OSM - we will all suffer.
-- 
regards
Kenneth Gonsalves
Associate
NRC-FOSS
http://nrcfosshelpline.in/web/

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Re: [OSM-talk] Google Street View copyright question

[Ian Dees]

On Tue, Sep 8, 2009 at 5:54 PM, Kenneth Gonsalves  wrote:

> On Wednesday 09 Sep 2009 2:40:49 am Anthony wrote:
> > Is it okay to use Google Street View to confirm turning restrictions,
> > street names, etc?  This seems like an obvious "yes" to me, but then, I
> > would have said the same thing about tracing from a satellite photo, so
> I'm
> > not going to try to guess international copyright law.
>
> not ok - if google has made a mistake (or an easter egg) and you
> incorporate
> that in OSM - we will all suffer.
>

How do you make a mistake with a picture of the real world?
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Re: [OSM-talk] Google Street View copyright question

[Eric Wolf]

I didn't realize the imagery was opened up for world wide use. Last I heard,
it was only in the US.
-Eric

-=--=---===---=--=-=--=---==---=--=-=-
Eric B. WolfNew! 720-334-7734
USGS Geographer
Center of Excellence in GIScience
PhD Student
CU-Boulder - Geography



On Tue, Sep 8, 2009 at 4:16 PM, Shaun McDonald wrote:

>
> On 8 Sep 2009, at 22:21, Eric Wolf wrote:
>
>
>> Further, you should only be using satellite imagery to generate OSM data
>> if the copyright has been released for that purpose (like Yahoo's imagery in
>> the US) or if the imagery is provided without restriction (like USGS
>> imagery).
>>
>
> Why do you state Yahoo's imagery _in the US_, when in fact we are allowed
> to use it worldwide?
>
> Shaun
>
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Google Street View copyright question

[David Muir Sharnoff]

Google's forbids many things, but looking at an image and noting the
turn restrictions (or other content) that you can see within it is not
mentioned.   Such a use is not covered by "2 (b) copy, translate,
modify, or make derivative works of the Content or any part thereof;"
since the turn restrictions are something that you can see in the
image -- not the image itself.

-Dave

On Tue, Sep 8, 2009 at 2:36 PM, Jonathan
Bennett wrote:
> Anthony wrote:
>> Is it okay to use Google Street View to confirm turning restrictions,
>> street names, etc?  This seems like an obvious "yes" to me, but then,
>> I would have said the same thing about tracing from a satellite photo,
>> so I'm not going to try to guess international copyright law.
> The simple answer is that Street View is still protected by copyright,
> and that by using it you agree to Google's terms and conditions, so
> unless you have specific permission to derive data from it, it's safest
> to assume you can't. We're generally paranoid about copyright
> infringement because we don't want to jeopardise the entire project for
> the sake of a relatively small gain (Street View tends to cover urban
> areas, which are easier to survey in person anyway).
>
> You also need to consider that Street View still uses Google Maps as
> part of its interface (and possibly for the overlaid navigation data),
> so it's affected by the licence on that data.
>
> However, Google does own the Street View pictures themselves in their
> entirety. If they, with the location and bearing of each one was made
> available to OSM under terms compatible with CC-BY-SA (or ODBL), then we
> could use them. We would need a way of accessing the images that made no
> reference to any other geodata (so the standard web interface would be
> out). It's something we'd need to negotiate, but we can't do it at
> present, unfortunately.
>
> J.
>
> ___
> talk mailing list
> talk@openstreetmap.org
> http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>
>

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Re: [OSM-talk] Vandalism/user error?

[Richard Fairhurst]

David Earl wrote:
> Richard - why do we still need this mode now you can save in 
> Potlatch and groups of changes fit much better with changesets 
> anyway?

Lots of people still prefer it. I've not seen any evidence of people
mistakenly selecting it - I think the big lightning bolt is pretty clear!

cheers
Richard
-- 
View this message in context: 
http://www.nabble.com/Vandalism-user-error--tp25349663p25355754.html
Sent from the OpenStreetMap - General mailing list archive at Nabble.com.


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Re: [OSM-talk] Google Street View copyright question

[Shaun McDonald]

On 9 Sep 2009, at 00:02, Ian Dees wrote:

On Tue, Sep 8, 2009 at 5:54 PM, Kenneth Gonsalves kbc.org> wrote:

On Wednesday 09 Sep 2009 2:40:49 am Anthony wrote:
> Is it okay to use Google Street View to confirm turning  
restrictions,
> street names, etc?  This seems like an obvious "yes" to me, but  
then, I
> would have said the same thing about tracing from a satellite  
photo, so I'm

> not going to try to guess international copyright law.

not ok - if google has made a mistake (or an easter egg) and you  
incorporate

that in OSM - we will all suffer.

How do you make a mistake with a picture of the real world?


It being out of date, or being geotagged wrongly.

Shaun

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Re: [OSM-talk] creating shapefile of postcodes

[maning sambale]

Thanks!

On Wed, Sep 9, 2009 at 1:49 AM, Dave Stubbs wrote:
> On Tue, Sep 8, 2009 at 2:08 PM, maning
> sambale wrote:
>> I already installed shapelib in ubunut jaunty and I still get the same error
>> python makeShapeColoured.py
>> /home/maning/gisrs/osm_postcode/combined_postcode.csv
>> Traceback (most recent call last):
>>  File "makeShapeColoured.py", line 34, in 
>>    import shapelib.shapelib as shp, shapelib.dbflib as dbf
>> ImportError: No module named shapelib.shapelib
>>
>> Please help
>>
>
>
> You need to install the python bindings just unzip this into a
> directory called shapelib in the same dir as the makeShapeColoured.py
> file
>
> ftp://intevation.de/users/bh/pyshapelib/
>
> I've also attached my code for grabbing postcodes out of an OSM
> extract. It does 2 passes of the OSM file so isn't exactly fast.
>
> Dave
>



-- 
cheers,
maning
--
"Freedom is still the most radical idea of all" -N.Branden
wiki: http://esambale.wikispaces.com/
blog: http://epsg4253.wordpress.com/
--

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Re: [OSM-talk] Seoul

[Andrew Errington]

On Wed, September 9, 2009 02:28, Ed Avis wrote:
> Shouldn't the name tags in Seoul also be fixed a bit?  Instead of a
> Hangul name
> followed by a Latin-alphabet name in brackets, wouldn't it be better to
> tag name...@hangul and name...@latin separately?

Actually, the convention is that objects should be tagged with four names.
 The 'name=*' tag is Hangul followed by English in brackets.  This is the
most important, as it is the 'fallback' tag for rendering a name.  The
others are 'name:en=*' for the English name, 'name:ko=*' for the Korean
name (in Hangul), and 'name:ko_rm=*' for the Romanised Korean name.

To some degree this information is redundant, but I am only following the
Korean mapping recommendations here:



Andrew


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Re: [OSM-talk] RR8 - Possible International Vandal (assistance required around Lincoln, England)

[Someoneelse]

Bob wrote:
> Hi List,
> 
> The A57 and A607 edits below are incorrect to the best of my
> knowledge.

Thanks for that.  I'll have a go at undoing the A57 changes as time 
permits (unless anyone beats me to it).  I seem to recall reverting some 
A607 changes (as part of reverting the fictitious extension of the A512 
beyond Melton) so that may already be done (I'll have a look at the same 
time in case not).

Also, if you're in Lincoln, any thoughts on the A15 (i.e. should it be 
primary, which it was before, or trunk, which RR8 changed it to), and 
the "lets make everything a secondary road" changes in the southeast of 
the city?


Cheers,
Andy

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Re: [OSM-talk] Google Street View copyright question

[Ian Dees]

On Tue, Sep 8, 2009 at 6:09 PM, Eric Wolf  wrote:

> not ok - if google has made a mistake (or an easter egg) and you
>>> incorporate
>>> that in OSM - we will all suffer.
>>>
>>
>> How do you make a mistake with a picture of the real world?
>>
>
> Ever hear of Photoshop?
>
> Map makers (and other surveyors of "real world" information) have
> traditionally included incorrect information. If you duplicate their
> incorrect information, then it's evident you were making derivative
> products.
>

I see your point, but those maps are artistic representations of the real
world. In this case, Google has taken photographs of the real world.
Introducing cartographic error into those images would be A) costly and B)
make their product less useful to their customers.

Either way, I don't condone making maps from StreetView images, I'm just
raising the point.

Back in March, Ed Parsons pointed out [0] that since StreetView images are
Google-owned, if someone asked nicely-enough we could get them to give us a
license to explicitly map based on the streetview images (similar to the
explicit license we have with Yahoo).

[0] http://twitter.com/edparsons/status/1381963392
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Re: [OSM-talk] Google Street View copyright question

[Anthony]

On Tue, Sep 8, 2009 at 6:49 PM, Jonathan Bennett <
openstreet...@jonno.cix.co.uk> wrote:

> David Muir Sharnoff wrote:
>
>> Google's forbids many things, but looking at an image and noting the
>> turn restrictions (or other content) that you can see within it is not
>> mentioned.   Such a use is not covered by "2 (b) copy, translate,
>> modify, or make derivative works of the Content or any part thereof;"
>> since the turn restrictions are something that you can see in the
>> image -- not the image itself.
>>
>> -Dave
>>
>
> Google's (or rather Tele Atlas's) lawyers would argue you were indeed
> making a derivative work, and they can afford better lawyers than us --
> unless you have a huge pot of cash you want to use to test this case?


Eh, I'd take on Google pro se (or with the help of free EFF lawyers or the
like) over the issue of the ToS, and based on US law I'm pretty sure I'd
win.  However, I'm aware that other users of OSM don't have the benefit
US-jurisdictional copyright law with respect to factual data, so I won't do
it, for their sake.

Still, I can't get my head around what the rules exactly are.  If I read a
newspaper article which says that Main Street has been renamed to
Independence Blvd, can I use that, or do I have to go out there myself and
check?  It makes no sense.
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Re: [OSM-talk] Seoul

[andrzej zaborowski]

2009/9/8 Andrew Errington :
>> Could someone check, if they are realy there?
>
> This is a side-effect of a bulk-upload.  In Korea clinics and private
> doctors are known as 'hospitals', as well as hospitals.  At least, I think
> so.  They need to be changed to something other than 'hospital', but it
> will take a while as there are only a handful of mappers in Korea.

Yeah, I don't think this data needs to be checked, it's from official
sources, it just needs to be fixed because the import has been done
poorly.  Especially when there is that much data, it doesn't make
sense to ask if someone could go and check it :)

>
>>
>> This looks also very nice:
>> http://www.informationfreeway.org/index.php?lat=37.5760761&lon=126.9786415
>> 8&zoom=13&layers=BF000F
>
> Looks like a font size issue in the renderer.
>
> By the way, I just requested the creation of a talk-ko mailing list, but
> nothing's happening there yet (only a handful of mappers here!).

It seems a number of mappers have been discouraged by the mass
importer deleting their data,
http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/vineldi/diary/6970

Regards

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Re: [OSM-talk] Seoul

[Andrew Errington]

On Wed, September 9, 2009 09:52, andrzej zaborowski wrote:
> 2009/9/8 Andrew Errington :

>> By the way, I just requested the creation of a talk-ko mailing list,
>> but nothing's happening there yet (only a handful of mappers here!).
>
> It seems a number of mappers have been discouraged by the mass
> importer deleting their data,
> http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/vineldi/diary/6970

I agree that this is an issue, but the mapper could find out who
deleted/edited their work and contact them to ask why (although they go on
to say that the language barrier makes this difficult).

It is also true that there was very little data a year ago, but a couple
of months ago there was a bulk upload of major roads from government data.
 In some areas this has duplicated roads that were already there.

There has also been bulk uploads of POIs from two sources, mp2osm and
http://kr.open.gugi.yahoo.com.

The POIs were present before I started mapping, and the major road upload
was added after.  In my town there were no streets or local roads, so I
have been focusing on those.

I am not sure if I like what has happened, but on the other hand it has
added some shape to an otherwise blank canvas.  I have found that some of
the uploaded POIs are non-existent in real life, or in the wrong place.  I
have also found that the kind of POIs are a little banal- mostly clinics
and fish restaurants.  Fortunately my town is small, so I can add streets
without worrying about the major roads, and I can verify each POI as I
encounter it.

I am hoping that the talk-ko mailing list can start addressing issues like
this.  At the moment there is no cohesion with mappers, their data, and
their discussions in Korea.  In the meantime, even a small town takes a
while to map...

Andrew


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Re: [OSM-talk] source=(survey, yahoo, gps...)

[Anthony]

On Tue, Sep 8, 2009 at 11:04 PM, John Smith wrote:

> 2009/9/9 Anthony :
> > On Tue, Sep 8, 2009 at 1:26 PM, John Smith 
> > wrote:
> >>
> >> it would be nice to tag things like GPS model, not just that it was
> >> from a GPS, some models are better than others and so on and so forth.
> >
> > In which case you ought to just upload the GPS data, right?  GPX supports
> > identifying the GPS model as well as point by point accuracy data,
> doesn't
> > it?  I'm less sure whether or not OSM supports this.
>
> Just because a GPS file was uploaded, doesn't mean this was used as
> the source of data, or that it hasn't been changed to use an
> alternative GPS data source or source in general since.


If the way lines up with the GPS trace, the GPS trace was used as the source
of data.  If it doesn't, it wasn't (or it has been changed).

Am I missing some reason that's not correct?


> This is meta
> data for vector information and the vector data has to be tagged
> explicitly with this information some how, other wise we're still left
> assuming as to it's origin or "source".
>

I agree that people should list their source, even if they uploaded a GPS
trace, since not everyone uses the same software and can bring up the GPS
traces very easily.  But if the source is a GPS trace (or Yahoo, for that
matter), it's not the end of the world if they don't, as a quick examination
of those two possibilities will reveal the source.

Anyway, my question above was where the best place is to tag things like GPS
model.  Why should that be tagged on the way itself, and not on the GPS
trace?  Obviously only works if the person uploads the GPS trace, but we're
talking best practices at this point, right?

By the way, is there any interface where I can click on individual GPS
traces and bring up information about them?  I had one yesterday which was
showing a road that I'm almost certain no longer exists, but I wanted to
check the date that it was made just to confirm my suspicion.  Also, is
there anything that can/should be done in this situation?  It's a shame if
everyone who looks at that has to go through all the same trouble as me just
to confirm that yes, this GPS trace is for a road that no longer exists.
Can traces with obsolete (or just plain inaccurate) information be deleted?
Should they be?
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Re: [OSM-talk] source=(survey, yahoo, gps...)

[John Smith]

2009/9/9 Anthony :
> On Tue, Sep 8, 2009 at 1:26 PM, John Smith 
> wrote:
>>
>> it would be nice to tag things like GPS model, not just that it was
>> from a GPS, some models are better than others and so on and so forth.
>
> In which case you ought to just upload the GPS data, right?  GPX supports
> identifying the GPS model as well as point by point accuracy data, doesn't
> it?  I'm less sure whether or not OSM supports this.

Just because a GPS file was uploaded, doesn't mean this was used as
the source of data, or that it hasn't been changed to use an
alternative GPS data source or source in general since. This is meta
data for vector information and the vector data has to be tagged
explicitly with this information some how, other wise we're still left
assuming as to it's origin or "source".

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Re: [OSM-talk] source=(survey, yahoo, gps...)

[John Smith]

2009/9/9 Anthony :

> If the way lines up with the GPS trace, the GPS trace was used as the source
> of data.  If it doesn't, it wasn't (or it has been changed).
>
> Am I missing some reason that's not correct?

You're assuming only one type of source was used to generate a way,
when multiple sources may have been used on the same way, so what do
you assume if some of the way lines up with GPS trace and some
doesn't?

> I agree that people should list their source, even if they uploaded a GPS
> trace, since not everyone uses the same software and can bring up the GPS
> traces very easily.  But if the source is a GPS trace (or Yahoo, for that
> matter), it's not the end of the world if they don't, as a quick examination
> of those two possibilities will reveal the source.

What if they edit the way in JOSM and only load the GPS trace locally,
how are you know know they created a way based on GPS information?

> Anyway, my question above was where the best place is to tag things like GPS
> model.  Why should that be tagged on the way itself, and not on the GPS
> trace?  Obviously only works if the person uploads the GPS trace, but we're
> talking best practices at this point, right?

We need to also cover our bases, ways and POIs should be tagged as to
their origin simply because we're guessing otherwise.

> By the way, is there any interface where I can click on individual GPS
> traces and bring up information about them?  I had one yesterday which was

Only if they've been made public, if they're marked private you can't
get any more details.


> It's a shame if
> everyone who looks at that has to go through all the same trouble as me just
> to confirm that yes, this GPS trace is for a road that no longer exists.

Which is the point of tagging ways/POIs with source information.

> Can traces with obsolete (or just plain inaccurate) information be deleted?
> Should they be?

This was the topic of another email thread a while back, I'm not sure
of the outcome.

I particularlly love the GPS trace that cuts across Lord Howe Island,
no idea who's trace or even how I'd go about finding who's trace it
was but it may have been from a plane, no idea.

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