date:20090930

Missing persons:
http://ateneotaskforceondoy.misa.org.ph/guidelines

This looks good.

On Wed, Sep 30, 2009 at 1:31 PM, Eugene Alvin Villar sea...@gmail.com wrote:
Hi maning,

The Ondoy situation maps on Google Maps My Maps
(http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=UTF8hl=enmsa=0msid=110868206150348750692.00047479b6400ee29bd89ll=14.645791,121.107874spn=0.107954,0.154324)
is the most publicized webmap there is. It shows the locations of people
needing immediate rescue and help.

I don't think we should duplicate that effort since it would split
resources.

I guess what we can do is to map out rehabilitation efforts instead of
people needing rescue.

Also, some bloggers and other people I know are looking to use the Sahana
FOSS Disaster Management System to coordinate efforts on various aspects of
a disaster. I'm not sure how OSM can fit into the picture yet.
(http://sahana.kahelos.org/index.php?mod=homeact=default)

Eugene

On Wed, Sep 30, 2009 at 12:16 PM, maning sambale
emmanuel.samb...@gmail.com wrote:

I just had access to the web a couple of hours ago and is looking
around for webmaps and other geographic information.
I just wrote an appeal to the osm main list on creating a webmap to
support the releif, recovery and rescue however, there seems to be
several webmaps available already. Is there anything else we can do?

On Wed, Sep 30, 2009 at 11:44 AM, maning sambale
emmanuel.samb...@gmail.com wrote:
Hi,

In case people in the international community didn't know, the
Philippines (capital and surrounding provinces) were badly hit by
tropical cylcone ondoy/kestana the past week [1].

My family was affected as well, but we are OK now.

Current efforts are now towards search, rescue and relief. As a
mapping community I feel we need to do something and contribute. We
need to document whatever information we can compile so that
volunteers, relief workers, and government agencies can respond to the
needs.

The recovery efforts may take a few more weeks and we need to sustain
activities to restore vital public utilities to affected areas. Some
members of the OSM-PH has started creating webmap based on OSM to
document what is currently happening on the ground [2].

I appeal to the whole OSM community to help us in this project. What
we currently need are:
1. A temporary server space we can use.

2. Create mashups on related information about the disaster (osm data
for Metro Manila and adjacent provinces is good enough as a map
background), news feeds, location of evacuation sites, missing persons
list.

3. An interface in which users can report what is happening on the
ground, (I'm thinking of an openstreetbug interface)
i.e. This street in unpassable due to floods. This street needs
water. This street has no electricity. Too much garbage on this
street please collect now.
This way communities can report problems and hopefully close bugs.

I lack the technical skills to do this but I am willing to coordinate
efforts in some areas and collect field data around my mapping area.
Please help us do this project. The hope is the information we gather
and synthesize would be helpful.
We do not need anything sophisticated at the moment we just need
something running ASAP.

Thanks in advance.

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Typhoon_Ketsana_%282009%29
[2] http://www.umapper.com/maps/view/id/42152
--
cheers,
maning
--
Freedom is still the most radical idea of all -N.Branden
wiki: http://esambale.wikispaces.com/
blog: http://epsg4253.wordpress.com/
--

--
cheers,
maning
--
Freedom is still the most radical idea of all -N.Branden
wiki: http://esambale.wikispaces.com/
blog: http://epsg4253.wordpress.com/
--

___
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--
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--
cheers,
maning
--
Freedom is still the most radical idea of all -N.Branden
wiki: http://esambale.wikispaces.com/
blog: http://epsg4253.wordpress.com/
--

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Re: [talk-ph] need help on mapping for ondoy/Kestana flood victims in Metro Manila

2009-09-30 Thread Eugene Alvin Villar

This looks good, but a map is missing, which would've helped in determining
rescue routes. Geocoding this will be a challenge.

On Wed, Sep 30, 2009 at 2:10 PM, maning sambale
emmanuel.samb...@gmail.comwrote:

Missing persons:
http://ateneotaskforceondoy.misa.org.ph/guidelines

This looks good.

On Wed, Sep 30, 2009 at 1:31 PM, Eugene Alvin Villar sea...@gmail.com
wrote:
Hi maning,

The Ondoy situation maps on Google Maps My Maps
(
http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=UTF8hl=enmsa=0msid=110868206150348750692.00047479b6400ee29bd89ll=14.645791,121.107874spn=0.107954,0.154324
)
is the most publicized webmap there is. It shows the locations of people
needing immediate rescue and help.

I don't think we should duplicate that effort since it would split
resources.

I guess what we can do is to map out rehabilitation efforts instead of
people needing rescue.

Also, some bloggers and other people I know are looking to use the Sahana
FOSS Disaster Management System to coordinate efforts on various aspects
of
a disaster. I'm not sure how OSM can fit into the picture yet.
(http://sahana.kahelos.org/index.php?mod=homeact=default)

Eugene

On Wed, Sep 30, 2009 at 12:16 PM, maning sambale
emmanuel.samb...@gmail.com wrote:

On Wed, Sep 30, 2009 at 11:44 AM, maning sambale
emmanuel.samb...@gmail.com wrote:
Hi,

In case people in the international community didn't know, the
Philippines (capital and surrounding provinces) were badly hit by
tropical cylcone ondoy/kestana the past week [1].

My family was affected as well, but we are OK now.

I appeal to the whole OSM community to help us in this project. What
we currently need are:
1. A temporary server space we can use.

Thanks in advance.

--
cheers,
maning
--
Freedom is still the most radical idea of all -N.Branden
wiki: http://esambale.wikispaces.com/
blog: http://epsg4253.wordpress.com/
--

___
talk-ph mailing list
talk-ph@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ph

--
http://vaes9.codedgraphic.com

--
cheers,
maning
--
Freedom is still the most radical idea of all -N.Branden
wiki: http://esambale.wikispaces.com/
blog: http://epsg4253.wordpress.com/
--

___
talk-ph mailing list
talk-ph@openstreetmap.org
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--
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[talk-ph] need help on mapping for ondoy/Kestana flood victims in Metro Manila

2009-09-30 Thread Andre Marcelo-Tanner

The Sahana thing is interesting, does that have OSM maps?

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[talk-ph] Fwd: [plug] Volunteers for Sahana Project (IT Professionals or Not), Stand Up, Rise UP!

2009-09-30 Thread eric pareja

From what I know about sahana, it uses googlemaps api... here's a post
on another list I'm on that is asking for volunteers to get involved.
Maybe later on, someone who knows code can work on integrating
openstreetmap into sahana. It might be an interesting subproject.

-- Forwarded message --
From: meric mara meri...@yahoo.com
Date: Tue, Sep 29, 2009 at 7:01 PM
Subject: [plug] Volunteers for Sahana Project (IT Professionals or
Not), Stand Up, Rise UP!

Volunteers for Sahana Project (IT Professionals or Not), Stand Up, Rise UP!

With the help of the internet and media, we were able to pull
ourselves and carry on our modern day Bayanihan.

Today, IBM and KahelOS Team, met with NDCC. With that said, NDCC and
its coordinating agencies shall be adopting the system and will
require our help to make this happen.

Urgently, we need to jumpstart and organize ourselves. Then, drill
down our activities and planned work to ensue and pursue the initial
goals of the project.

For the new volunteers, the Sahana Project is a web-based Disaster
Management System that addresses the common coordination problems
during a disaster from finding missing people, managing aids and
reliefs, managing volunteers and tracking camps effectively between
Government groups, the civil society (NGOs), concerned/private
individuals and the victims themselves.

You, as a Volunteer, can greatly contribute in making this tool an
effective system.

First, please complete the form at this link.
http://sahana.kahelos.org/volunteer.php

For any other info, you can email sah...@kahelos.org or join the forum
at http://sahana.kahelos.org/forum.

Salamat at Mabuhay ang Bayanihan sa Modernong Panahon.
http://sahana.kahelos.org

--
eric pareja (eric.par...@gmail.com) LPIC-2 | PGP/GPG Key 0xB82E42D9
Coordinator for Technology / Senior Linux Trainer
National Telehealth Center, University of the Philippines Manila
International Open Source Network - ASEAN+3
Ang mundo ay aklat, at iisang pahina lamang ang nababasa ng hindi naglalakbay.
わかよたれぞ　つねならむ

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Re: [talk-ph] Fwd: Re: Fwd: need help on mapping for ondoy/Kestana flood victims in Metro Manila

2009-09-30 Thread Mikel Maron

Thanks Mike .. I just subscribed anyway

Ushahidi can be deployed. I see from the archives of the list Sahana has been 
deployed elsewhere. I know the Sahana, Ushahidi, and other folks, so we can get 
assistance from a wide network.

It would be great to catalog all these efforts to introduce communications 
technology for response, in the wiki. We can then work on coordinating all 
these efforts .. so we can cooperatively invest effort in a couple places, or 
get these different systems sharing data.

Another thing we can try is producing map data for use by the international 
disaster response community. We could work on a PDF, with OSM base data, and 
overlays of issues on the ground. That PDF could be posted to ReliefWeb.

-Mikel




- Original Message 
From: Mike Collinson m...@ayeltd.biz
To: osm-ph talk-ph@openstreetmap.org
Cc: Mikel Maron mikel_ma...@yahoo.com
Sent: Wednesday, September 30, 2009 10:26:59 AM
Subject: Fwd: Re: Fwd: need help on mapping for ondoy/Kestana flood  victims in 
Metro  Manila

CC'ing the following in case Maning out of computer access. Mikel is talking to 
Ushahidi now I believe (www.ushahidi.com/ ). Mikel has a lot of experience in 
this area and part of HOT.

May I also suggest that whoever has access to the osm-ph admin interface (I 
don't), sets automatic acceptance to Mikel's email address so that he can cc 
the list without subscribing.

My wife and I express our concern for everyone affected and their families.  
One aspect of the initiative that Maning suggests would be the ability for OFWs 
around the world to find out more about what is happening in their immediate 
home area - if a resource gets up and running, I'll be able to information 
about it to Philippine embassies quickly.

Mike


Date: Wed, 30 Sep 2009 06:45:28 -0700 (PDT)
From: Mikel Maron mikel_ma...@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: Fwd: need help on mapping for ondoy/Kestana flood victims in 
Metro  Manila
To: maning sambale emmanuel.samb...@gmail.com
Cc: Mike Collinson m...@ayeltd.biz,
Andrew Turner ajtur...@highearthorbit.com


Are you on Skype/IM?

Skype: mikelmaron
gtalk: mikel.maron



1) We can probably get you a server somewhere .. is it ok if it's in the US? 
What sort of access do you need? 
Do you have a domain?

2) Mashups .. are you all collecting sources of data?

I'd suggest starting a catalog on the wiki, a subpage to the Philippines 
project page, or subpage to the HOT page

We'd then look to pull those data sources together somehow .. perhaps through 
just an OpenLayers instance, or through GeoCommons (andrew turner cc'd)

3) For data collection applications, OpenStreetBugs could be stood up .. but 
is there widely available net access right now?

Would an SMS based application be a better fit for the situation? We'd only 
need a PH mobile phone set up to FrontlineSMS over there, and we could set up 
Ushahidi anywhere




- Original Message 
From: maning sambale emmanuel.samb...@gmail.com
To: Mikel Maron mikel_ma...@yahoo.com
Sent: Tuesday, September 29, 2009 11:59:04 PM
Subject: Fwd: need help on mapping for ondoy/Kestana flood victims in Metro  
Manila

mikel,

Can the Humanitarian OSM Team, help us?

cheers,
maning


-- Forwarded message --
From: maning sambale emmanuel.samb...@gmail.com
Date: Wed, Sep 30, 2009 at 11:44 AM
Subject: need help on mapping for ondoy/Kestana flood victims in Metro Manila
To: osm-ph talk-ph@openstreetmap.org, osm-talk t...@openstreetmap.org

Hi,

In case people in the international community didn't know, the
Philippines (capital and surrounding provinces) were badly hit by
tropical cylcone ondoy/kestana the past week [1].

My family was affected as well, but we are OK now.

Current efforts are now towards search, rescue and relief.  As a
mapping community I feel we need to do something and contribute.  We
need to document whatever information we can compile so that
volunteers, relief workers, and government agencies can respond to the
needs.

The recovery efforts may take a few more weeks and we need to sustain
activities to restore vital public utilities to affected areas.  Some
members of the OSM-PH has started creating webmap based on OSM to
document what is currently happening on the ground [2].

I appeal to the whole OSM community to help us in this project.  What
we currently need are:
1. A temporary server space we can use.

2. Create mashups on related information about the disaster (osm data
for Metro Manila and adjacent provinces is good enough as a map
background), news feeds, location of evacuation sites, missing persons
list.

3. An interface in which users can report what is happening on the
ground, (I'm thinking of an openstreetbug interface)
 i.e. This street in unpassable due to floods. This street needs
water.  This street has no electricity.  Too much garbage on this
street please collect now.
 This way communities can report problems and hopefully close bugs.

I lack the technical skills to do this but I

Re: [talk-ph] Fwd: need help on mapping for ondoy/Kestana flood victims in Metro Manila

Hi to all

Mikel Maron is helping us setting-up an openstreetbug interface for
the rebuilding efforts.  There are several webmaps already in place
and we don't want to muddle with these initiatives anymore.  We might
provide more noise than help.

What I have in mind is for us to provide an interface for people to
report post-disaster problems.  This should provide LGUs, and utility
companies additional reference where to start rebuilding efforts.

I've made a stub page to coordinate our thoughts here:
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Humanitarian_OSM_Team/philippines_ondoy

Please help in the documentation, once openstreetbug is running we
need server admins and data collectors to picth is some time.

cheers,
maning


On Thu, Oct 1, 2009 at 9:33 AM, maning sambale
emmanuel.samb...@gmail.com wrote:
 Hi,

 Just got back online.

 On Wed, Sep 30, 2009 at 9:45 PM, Mikel Maron mikel_ma...@yahoo.com wrote:
 Are you on Skype/IM?

 Skype: mikelmaron
 gtalk: mikel.maron



 1) We can probably get you a server somewhere .. is it ok if it's in the US? 
 What sort of access do you need?
 Do you have a domain?

 Any server would be very useful.  We don't have a domain at the
 moment.  Perhaps openstreetmap.org.ph can be used.
 @ Andre and Ahmed, is this OK?  Please help get this going.

 2) Mashups .. are you all collecting sources of data?
 Yes, mashups would be helpful.  I just got a mapinfo file of the
 extent of flooding from Darthmouth Flood Research.  I'll see what I
 can do with this data.

 I'd suggest starting a catalog on the wiki, a subpage to the Philippines 
 project page, or subpage to the HOT page
 I'll start working on this one.

 We'd then look to pull those data sources together somehow .. perhaps 
 through just an OpenLayers instance, or through GeoCommons (andrew turner 
 cc'd)

 3) For data collection applications, OpenStreetBugs could be stood up .. but 
 is there widely available net access right now?
 This is one of the useful things I see we can do.  Set-up
 openstreetbug interface for people to report what they need.  Food ,
 electricity, water, garbage collection, etc.
 After the rescue and retrieval operations, rebuilding would take a
 long haul.  We nned to supply info to public utility operators what
 areas need immediate action.  I can ask other people to provide
 summary reports of the data gathered from openstreetbug to
 respective utility companies.

 People with internet connection can help report these areas.  Most of
 them are in the news but sadly no one is compiling all these info for
 utilty companies to respond strategically.

 Would an SMS based application be a better fit for the situation? We'd only 
 need a PH mobile phone set up to FrontlineSMS over there, and we could set 
 up Ushahidi anywhere
 This is also possible.  But don't how difficult to set-up.





 - Original Message 
 From: maning sambale emmanuel.samb...@gmail.com
 To: Mikel Maron mikel_ma...@yahoo.com
 Sent: Tuesday, September 29, 2009 11:59:04 PM
 Subject: Fwd: need help on mapping for ondoy/Kestana flood victims in Metro  
 Manila

 mikel,

 Can the Humanitarian OSM Team, help us?

 cheers,
 maning


 -- Forwarded message --
 From: maning sambale emmanuel.samb...@gmail.com
 Date: Wed, Sep 30, 2009 at 11:44 AM
 Subject: need help on mapping for ondoy/Kestana flood victims in Metro Manila
 To: osm-ph talk-ph@openstreetmap.org, osm-talk t...@openstreetmap.org

 Hi,

 In case people in the international community didn't know, the
 Philippines (capital and surrounding provinces) were badly hit by
 tropical cylcone ondoy/kestana the past week [1].

 My family was affected as well, but we are OK now.

 Current efforts are now towards search, rescue and relief.  As a
 mapping community I feel we need to do something and contribute.  We
 need to document whatever information we can compile so that
 volunteers, relief workers, and government agencies can respond to the
 needs.

 The recovery efforts may take a few more weeks and we need to sustain
 activities to restore vital public utilities to affected areas.  Some
 members of the OSM-PH has started creating webmap based on OSM to
 document what is currently happening on the ground [2].

 I appeal to the whole OSM community to help us in this project.  What
 we currently need are:
 1. A temporary server space we can use.

 2. Create mashups on related information about the disaster (osm data
 for Metro Manila and adjacent provinces is good enough as a map
 background), news feeds, location of evacuation sites, missing persons
 list.

 3. An interface in which users can report what is happening on the
 ground, (I'm thinking of an openstreetbug interface)
  i.e. This street in unpassable due to floods. This street needs
 water.  This street has no electricity.  Too much garbage on this
 street please collect now.
  This way communities can report problems and hopefully close bugs.

 I lack the technical skills to do this but I am willing

Re: [talk-ph] Fwd: need help on mapping for ondoy/Kestana flood victims in Metro Manila

2009-09-30 Thread Michael Cole

How much space you need on server?

Regards Michael Cole.


On Thursday 01 October 2009 9:33:56 am maning sambale wrote:
 Hi,
 
 Just got back online.
 
 On Wed, Sep 30, 2009 at 9:45 PM, Mikel Maron mikel_ma...@yahoo.com wrote:
  Are you on Skype/IM?
 
  Skype: mikelmaron
  gtalk: mikel.maron
 
 
 
  1) We can probably get you a server somewhere .. is it ok if it's in the
  US? What sort of access do you need? Do you have a domain?
 
 Any server would be very useful.  We don't have a domain at the
 moment.  Perhaps openstreetmap.org.ph can be used.
 @ Andre and Ahmed, is this OK?  Please help get this going.
 
  2) Mashups .. are you all collecting sources of data?
 
 Yes, mashups would be helpful.  I just got a mapinfo file of the
 extent of flooding from Darthmouth Flood Research.  I'll see what I
 can do with this data.
 
  I'd suggest starting a catalog on the wiki, a subpage to the Philippines
  project page, or subpage to the HOT page
 
 I'll start working on this one.
 
  We'd then look to pull those data sources together somehow .. perhaps
  through just an OpenLayers instance, or through GeoCommons (andrew turner
  cc'd)
 
  3) For data collection applications, OpenStreetBugs could be stood up ..
  but is there widely available net access right now?
 
 This is one of the useful things I see we can do.  Set-up
 openstreetbug interface for people to report what they need.  Food ,
 electricity, water, garbage collection, etc.
 After the rescue and retrieval operations, rebuilding would take a
 long haul.  We nned to supply info to public utility operators what
 areas need immediate action.  I can ask other people to provide
 summary reports of the data gathered from openstreetbug to
 respective utility companies.
 
 People with internet connection can help report these areas.  Most of
 them are in the news but sadly no one is compiling all these info for
 utilty companies to respond strategically.
 
  Would an SMS based application be a better fit for the situation? We'd
  only need a PH mobile phone set up to FrontlineSMS over there, and we
  could set up Ushahidi anywhere
 
 This is also possible.  But don't how difficult to set-up.
 
  - Original Message 
  From: maning sambale emmanuel.samb...@gmail.com
  To: Mikel Maron mikel_ma...@yahoo.com
  Sent: Tuesday, September 29, 2009 11:59:04 PM
  Subject: Fwd: need help on mapping for ondoy/Kestana flood victims in
  Metro  Manila
 
  mikel,
 
  Can the Humanitarian OSM Team, help us?
 
  cheers,
  maning
 
 
  -- Forwarded message --
  From: maning sambale emmanuel.samb...@gmail.com
  Date: Wed, Sep 30, 2009 at 11:44 AM
  Subject: need help on mapping for ondoy/Kestana flood victims in Metro
  Manila To: osm-ph talk-ph@openstreetmap.org, osm-talk
  t...@openstreetmap.org
 
  Hi,
 
  In case people in the international community didn't know, the
  Philippines (capital and surrounding provinces) were badly hit by
  tropical cylcone ondoy/kestana the past week [1].
 
  My family was affected as well, but we are OK now.
 
  Current efforts are now towards search, rescue and relief.  As a
  mapping community I feel we need to do something and contribute.  We
  need to document whatever information we can compile so that
  volunteers, relief workers, and government agencies can respond to the
  needs.
 
  The recovery efforts may take a few more weeks and we need to sustain
  activities to restore vital public utilities to affected areas.  Some
  members of the OSM-PH has started creating webmap based on OSM to
  document what is currently happening on the ground [2].
 
  I appeal to the whole OSM community to help us in this project.  What
  we currently need are:
  1. A temporary server space we can use.
 
  2. Create mashups on related information about the disaster (osm data
  for Metro Manila and adjacent provinces is good enough as a map
  background), news feeds, location of evacuation sites, missing persons
  list.
 
  3. An interface in which users can report what is happening on the
  ground, (I'm thinking of an openstreetbug interface)
   i.e. This street in unpassable due to floods. This street needs
  water.  This street has no electricity.  Too much garbage on this
  street please collect now.
   This way communities can report problems and hopefully close bugs.
 
  I lack the technical skills to do this but I am willing to coordinate
  efforts in some areas and collect field data around my mapping area.
  Please help us do this project.  The hope is the information we gather
  and synthesize would be helpful.
  We do not need anything sophisticated at the moment we just need
  something running ASAP.
 
  Thanks in advance.
 
  [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Typhoon_Ketsana_%282009%29
  [2] http://www.umapper.com/maps/view/id/42152
  --
  cheers,
  maning
  --
  Freedom is still the most radical idea of all -N.Branden
  wiki: http://esambale.wikispaces.com/
  blog:

Re: [talk-ph] Fwd: need help on mapping for ondoy/Kestana flood victims in Metro Manila

@ michael cole
Let's wait till mikel maron set-up something for us.  In the meantime,
please help compiling more data on which areas have been affected.

On Thu, Oct 1, 2009 at 10:36 AM, Michael Cole colemic...@gmail.com wrote:
 How much space you need on server?

 Regards Michael Cole.


 On Thursday 01 October 2009 9:33:56 am maning sambale wrote:
 Hi,

 Just got back online.

 On Wed, Sep 30, 2009 at 9:45 PM, Mikel Maron mikel_ma...@yahoo.com wrote:
  Are you on Skype/IM?
 
  Skype: mikelmaron
  gtalk: mikel.maron
 
 
 
  1) We can probably get you a server somewhere .. is it ok if it's in the
  US? What sort of access do you need? Do you have a domain?

 Any server would be very useful.  We don't have a domain at the
 moment.  Perhaps openstreetmap.org.ph can be used.
 @ Andre and Ahmed, is this OK?  Please help get this going.

  2) Mashups .. are you all collecting sources of data?

 Yes, mashups would be helpful.  I just got a mapinfo file of the
 extent of flooding from Darthmouth Flood Research.  I'll see what I
 can do with this data.

  I'd suggest starting a catalog on the wiki, a subpage to the Philippines
  project page, or subpage to the HOT page

 I'll start working on this one.

  We'd then look to pull those data sources together somehow .. perhaps
  through just an OpenLayers instance, or through GeoCommons (andrew turner
  cc'd)
 
  3) For data collection applications, OpenStreetBugs could be stood up ..
  but is there widely available net access right now?

 This is one of the useful things I see we can do.  Set-up
 openstreetbug interface for people to report what they need.  Food ,
 electricity, water, garbage collection, etc.
 After the rescue and retrieval operations, rebuilding would take a
 long haul.  We nned to supply info to public utility operators what
 areas need immediate action.  I can ask other people to provide
 summary reports of the data gathered from openstreetbug to
 respective utility companies.

 People with internet connection can help report these areas.  Most of
 them are in the news but sadly no one is compiling all these info for
 utilty companies to respond strategically.

  Would an SMS based application be a better fit for the situation? We'd
  only need a PH mobile phone set up to FrontlineSMS over there, and we
  could set up Ushahidi anywhere

 This is also possible.  But don't how difficult to set-up.

  - Original Message 
  From: maning sambale emmanuel.samb...@gmail.com
  To: Mikel Maron mikel_ma...@yahoo.com
  Sent: Tuesday, September 29, 2009 11:59:04 PM
  Subject: Fwd: need help on mapping for ondoy/Kestana flood victims in
  Metro  Manila
 
  mikel,
 
  Can the Humanitarian OSM Team, help us?
 
  cheers,
  maning
 
 
  -- Forwarded message --
  From: maning sambale emmanuel.samb...@gmail.com
  Date: Wed, Sep 30, 2009 at 11:44 AM
  Subject: need help on mapping for ondoy/Kestana flood victims in Metro
  Manila To: osm-ph talk-ph@openstreetmap.org, osm-talk
  t...@openstreetmap.org
 
  Hi,
 
  In case people in the international community didn't know, the
  Philippines (capital and surrounding provinces) were badly hit by
  tropical cylcone ondoy/kestana the past week [1].
 
  My family was affected as well, but we are OK now.
 
  Current efforts are now towards search, rescue and relief.  As a
  mapping community I feel we need to do something and contribute.  We
  need to document whatever information we can compile so that
  volunteers, relief workers, and government agencies can respond to the
  needs.
 
  The recovery efforts may take a few more weeks and we need to sustain
  activities to restore vital public utilities to affected areas.  Some
  members of the OSM-PH has started creating webmap based on OSM to
  document what is currently happening on the ground [2].
 
  I appeal to the whole OSM community to help us in this project.  What
  we currently need are:
  1. A temporary server space we can use.
 
  2. Create mashups on related information about the disaster (osm data
  for Metro Manila and adjacent provinces is good enough as a map
  background), news feeds, location of evacuation sites, missing persons
  list.
 
  3. An interface in which users can report what is happening on the
  ground, (I'm thinking of an openstreetbug interface)
   i.e. This street in unpassable due to floods. This street needs
  water.  This street has no electricity.  Too much garbage on this
  street please collect now.
   This way communities can report problems and hopefully close bugs.
 
  I lack the technical skills to do this but I am willing to coordinate
  efforts in some areas and collect field data around my mapping area.
  Please help us do this project.  The hope is the information we gather
  and synthesize would be helpful.
  We do not need anything sophisticated at the moment we just need
  something running ASAP.
 
  Thanks in advance.
 
  [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Typhoon_Ketsana_%282009%29
  [2]

Re: [talk-ph] Holiday declared tomorrow maybe....

We're OK.  I live in a neighborhood were neighbors are neighborly.
Thanks anyway.

On Thu, Oct 1, 2009 at 12:40 PM, Michael Cole colemic...@gmail.com wrote:
 Ed or manning you need help..

 If not ed or manning anyone else on this list need a extra large set of hands
 to move stuff and help with the clean up..

 Maybe I can get a taxi tomorrow to your area and give you a hand...

 You guys need a hand?

 Regards Michael Cole.


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cheers,
maning
--
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blog: http://epsg4253.wordpress.com/
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Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Protection time of ODbL

2009-09-30 Thread Ed Avis

Matt Amos zerebub...@... writes:

Have we reached a
consensus that the contents of the database are themselves not protected
by copyright and do we explicitly say that we don't claim any copyright?

yes. see the contributor terms document.

I think what might have been meant is not 'does the OSM foundation claim
copyright over the map data' but rather 'do we claim that the map data is
a work subject to copyright'.  As far as I know OSM is still making that
claim, and there are no plans to change this.

-- 
Ed Avis e...@waniasset.com


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Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Protection time of ODbL

Hi,

James Livingston wrote:
 On 30/09/2009, at 7:36 AM, Frederik Ramm wrote:
 Question is: 1. what about the contents themselves. Have we reached a
 consensus that the contents of the database are themselves not  
 protected
 by copyright and do we explicitly say that we don't claim any  
 copyright?
 
 I don't think that a consensus on what we think matters when  
 discussing whether the contents of the database are protected by  
 copyright

Well if you say you don't claim any then for all intents and purposes it 
does not matter whether your jurisdiction says that you could claim 
copyright or that you couldn't.

Bye
Frederik

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Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Protection time of ODbL


Frederik Ramm wrote:
 For example if OSM user n80 artfully crafts a way that doesn't 
 even exist and uploads it to OSM, then that way would perhaps 
 be protected by copyright in some jurisdictions, completely 
 independent of the database and whether or not it is substantial.

I think we need to get away from this OSM canard that trivial Easter eggs
(we'd spot and delete any non-trivial ones, of course) can be copyrighted or
otherwise protected.

People keep reciting it as if it's fact, but it smells of finest bullshit to
me - unless someone can actually point to chapter and verse in a major
jurisdiction where they might be copyrightable. They wouldn't be in the UK,
and UK copyright law is more draconian than pretty much anywhere else.

Easter eggs are there to swing the balance of proof in a case of suspected
infringement. Nothing more.

cheers
Richard
-- 
View this message in context: 
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Sent from the OpenStreetMap - Legal Talk mailing list archive at Nabble.com.


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Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Protection time of ODbL

2009-09-30 Thread Matt Amos

On Wed, Sep 30, 2009 at 8:45 AM, Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org wrote:
 Matt Amos wrote:
   And 2. you are wrong because ODBL tries exactly that, to assert rights
 over the collection even in jurisdictions where there are none, by
 invoking the idea of a contract - so where is it written that the
 contract, which may well exist in parallel to sui generis rights in
 Europe, also terminates after 15 years?

 you're wrong - the contract asserts no rights over the collection.
 that's why we need a contract, because there are no sui generis
 rights to take advantage of.

 I don't think I understand you, or maybe you don't understand me. I'll
 try this in individual steps:
snip
 Clearer now?

i understood that part of your point the first time around, but i was
correcting your claim that the ODbL tries ... to assert rights over
the collection even in jurisdictions where there are none. i was
pointing out that ODbL doesn't (and, as you say, can't) claim any
*rights*, so it has to try to emulate them using contract law instead.

maybe this is why lawyers use capitalised terms, like Rights, with a
defined meaning :-)

but i take your point about the variable length of the protection in
different jurisdictions. maybe it's cold comfort that any
copyright-based license has exactly the same problem. i can't find
anywhere in the GPL, for example, which states the length of the term
and countries have wildly varying copyright terms according to [1]
(from life+100 years in mexico down to life+25 in the seychelles or
even 0 in the marshall islands, where copyright law doesn't exist)

 yes. over insubstantial amounts of data, there's no copyright claimed.

 Aren't you now mixing database law and copyright terms. Whether or not
 something falls under copyright has nothing to with whether it is
 substantial related to some kind of database, has it?

well, in some jurisdictions there might be copyright over the data
arrangement, but - you're right - that's not what i meant. i should
have said database rights.

 For example if OSM user n80 artfully crafts a way that doesn't even
 exist and uploads it to OSM, then that way would perhaps be protected by
 copyright in some jurisdictions, completely independent of the database
 and whether or not it is substantial.

 If I read the contributor agreement correctly, then we require from
 n80 that he declares never to exercise his copyright. Whether or not,
 and for how long, database protection covers his work of art, does not
 come into the equation - the copyright question is over when the data is
 uploaded. Correct?

the contributor terms covers the copyright in individual elements,
granting a worldwide, royalty-free, non-exclusive, perpetual,
irrevocable license to do any act that is restricted by copyright over
anything within the Contents, whether in the original medium or any
other. so, yes; individual data items come with a very liberal
license. this doesn't mean that certain aspects of copyright don't
still exist (e.g: in some jurisdictions an author's moral rights are
non-waivable), but then we can start arguing over whether any
copyright is valid over factual data, etc... etc...

cheers,

matt

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries%27_copyright_length

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Re: [OSM-legal-talk] OS map copyright expiry dates, FOI request

I've mad a further FOI request to the OS today seeking clarification with
respect to those OS maps that do not carry a Crown Copyright (c) date. This
is the case with a lot of the First edition 1:25,000 sheets which have a
published date and a separate corrections/changes/additions date. I'm very
much hoping the published date still applies as per the response to TimSC's
request. 

It's interesting to note that the OS doesn't regularly go after copyright
infringers in the courts. You would think it would be more often than once
in a blue moon.
http://www.ordnancesurvey.co.uk/oswebsite/aboutus/foi/questions/2009/0059.ht
ml

Cheers

Andy

-Original Message-
From: legal-talk-boun...@openstreetmap.org [mailto:legal-talk-
boun...@openstreetmap.org] On Behalf Of TimSC
Sent: 14 September 2009 8:36 PM
To: legal-talk@openstreetmap.org
Subject: [OSM-legal-talk] OS map copyright expiry dates, FOI request


To legal-talk,

I was trying to think of a way to clarify the situation on copyright
expiry of OS maps. One interpretation is the 50 years copyright starts
when the map was last updated. Another is the copyright clock starts on
the year of the copyright notice. To get an answer, what better way than
to ask ordinance survey themselves? Under the freedom of information, I
asked about a specific example (detailed below).

The response seems to indicate OS's view is the copyright expires 50
after the year of the copyright notice. This is good news as it makes
many maps available for our use. The next question that occurs is can OS
reverse their view or is an FOI binding in some way. (Note the
disclaimer of the email.) Any thoughts from the community on this would
be good...

If my question or their answer was ambiguous, we can always do another
FOI request.

Regards,

TimSC

-Original Message-
From: Customer Services
Sent: 14 September 2009 12:05
To: Tim Sheerman-Chase
Subject: RE: Freedom of Information. Reference: SAP 71979

Dear Mr Sheerman-Chase

Ordnance Survey reference: 71979

Thank you for your email dated 30 August 2009 requesting: I have a
sheet that has the following markings: Made and published by the
Director General of the OS, Chessington, Surrey 1960 Reprinted with
minor changes 1965 Crown copyright (C) 1960

Which date is used to calculate when the copyright will lapse? Would
this either be either 1st Jan 2011 or 1st Jan 2016 or another date?

We are pleased to provide you with the following information with regard
to your request:
The Crown copyright subsisting in a hard copy printed OS map will
subsist from the end of the calendar year in which it was published
until the end of the period of 50 years from the end of the calendar
year in which it was published, meaning 1 January 2011.

Please note that your enquiry has been processed to Freedom of
Information guidelines.  As all requested information has been provided,
we have determined that in all the circumstances of this case the Public
interest consideration (section 17 FOIA) is not applicable in this
instance.

If you are unhappy with our response, you may raise an appeal to our
Appeals Officer at:

Complaints Team
Customer Service Centre
Ordnance Survey
Romsey Road
SOUTHAMPTON
SO16 4GU

Please include the reference number above. The Appeals Officer will
ensure that the process has been followed correctly, questioning any
decisions taken regarding the original response and recommending
disclosure of additional information if appropriate.

Thank you for your enquiry.

Yours sincerely

Tony Gray

Freedom of Information Pracitioner
Ordnance Survey
Romsey Road, SOUTHAMPTON, United Kingdom, SO16 4GU
Phone: +44 (0) 8456 050505 | Fax: +44 (0) 23 8079 2615
www.ordnancesurvey.co.uk  | customerservi...@ordnancesurvey.co.uk

Please consider your environmental responsibility before printing this
email.

-Original Message-
From: Tim Sheerman-Chase [mailto:**]
Sent: 30 August 2009 19:10
To: Customer Services
Subject: Freedom of Information. Reference: SAP 71979

FOI Enquiries,

I have a question under the Freedom of Information Act 2000 regarding
the crown copyright of OS map sheets. I have a sheet that has the
following markings:

Made and published by the Director General of the OS, Chessington,
Surrey 1960
Reprinted with minor changes 1965

Crown copyright (C) 1960

Which date is used to calculate when the copyright will lapse? Would
this either be either 1st Jan 2011 or 1st Jan 2016 or another date?

Thanks,

Tim Sheerman-Chase


This email is only intended for the person to whom it is addressed and
may contain confidential information. If you have received this email in
error, please notify the sender and delete this email which must not be
copied, distributed or disclosed to any other person.

Unless stated otherwise, the contents of this email are personal to the
writer and do not represent the official view of Ordnance Survey. Nor
can any contract be formed on Ordnance

Re: [OSM-legal-talk] OS map copyright expiry dates, FOI request

2009-09-30 Thread SteveC


On 30 Sep 2009, at 04:50, Andy Robinson (blackadder-lists) wrote:

 I've mad a further FOI request to the OS today seeking clarification  
 with
 respect to those OS maps that do not carry a Crown Copyright (c)  
 date. This
 is the case with a lot of the First edition 1:25,000 sheets which  
 have a
 published date and a separate corrections/changes/additions date.  
 I'm very
 much hoping the published date still applies as per the response to  
 TimSC's
 request.

 It's interesting to note that the OS doesn't regularly go after  
 copyright
 infringers in the courts. You would think it would be more often  
 than once
 in a blue moon.

that's what they *want* you to think :-)

 http://www.ordnancesurvey.co.uk/oswebsite/aboutus/foi/questions/2009/0059.ht
 ml

 Cheers

 Andy

 -Original Message-
 From: legal-talk-boun...@openstreetmap.org [mailto:legal-talk-
 boun...@openstreetmap.org] On Behalf Of TimSC
 Sent: 14 September 2009 8:36 PM
 To: legal-talk@openstreetmap.org
 Subject: [OSM-legal-talk] OS map copyright expiry dates, FOI request


 To legal-talk,

 I was trying to think of a way to clarify the situation on copyright
 expiry of OS maps. One interpretation is the 50 years copyright  
 starts
 when the map was last updated. Another is the copyright clock  
 starts on
 the year of the copyright notice. To get an answer, what better way  
 than
 to ask ordinance survey themselves? Under the freedom of  
 information, I
 asked about a specific example (detailed below).

 The response seems to indicate OS's view is the copyright expires 50
 after the year of the copyright notice. This is good news as it makes
 many maps available for our use. The next question that occurs is  
 can OS
 reverse their view or is an FOI binding in some way. (Note the
 disclaimer of the email.) Any thoughts from the community on this  
 would
 be good...

 If my question or their answer was ambiguous, we can always do  
 another
 FOI request.

 Regards,

 TimSC

 -Original Message-
 From: Customer Services
 Sent: 14 September 2009 12:05
 To: Tim Sheerman-Chase
 Subject: RE: Freedom of Information. Reference: SAP 71979

 Dear Mr Sheerman-Chase

 Ordnance Survey reference: 71979

 Thank you for your email dated 30 August 2009 requesting: I have a
 sheet that has the following markings: Made and published by the
 Director General of the OS, Chessington, Surrey 1960 Reprinted with
 minor changes 1965 Crown copyright (C) 1960

 Which date is used to calculate when the copyright will lapse? Would
 this either be either 1st Jan 2011 or 1st Jan 2016 or another date?

 We are pleased to provide you with the following information with  
 regard
 to your request:
 The Crown copyright subsisting in a hard copy printed OS map will
 subsist from the end of the calendar year in which it was published
 until the end of the period of 50 years from the end of the calendar
 year in which it was published, meaning 1 January 2011.

 Please note that your enquiry has been processed to Freedom of
 Information guidelines.  As all requested information has been  
 provided,
 we have determined that in all the circumstances of this case the  
 Public
 interest consideration (section 17 FOIA) is not applicable in this
 instance.

 If you are unhappy with our response, you may raise an appeal to our
 Appeals Officer at:

 Complaints Team
 Customer Service Centre
 Ordnance Survey
 Romsey Road
 SOUTHAMPTON
 SO16 4GU

 Please include the reference number above. The Appeals Officer will
 ensure that the process has been followed correctly, questioning any
 decisions taken regarding the original response and recommending
 disclosure of additional information if appropriate.

 Thank you for your enquiry.

 Yours sincerely

 Tony Gray

 Freedom of Information Pracitioner
 Ordnance Survey
 Romsey Road, SOUTHAMPTON, United Kingdom, SO16 4GU
 Phone: +44 (0) 8456 050505 | Fax: +44 (0) 23 8079 2615
 www.ordnancesurvey.co.uk  | customerservi...@ordnancesurvey.co.uk

 Please consider your environmental responsibility before printing  
 this
 email.

 -Original Message-
 From: Tim Sheerman-Chase [mailto:**]
 Sent: 30 August 2009 19:10
 To: Customer Services
 Subject: Freedom of Information. Reference: SAP 71979

 FOI Enquiries,

 I have a question under the Freedom of Information Act 2000 regarding
 the crown copyright of OS map sheets. I have a sheet that has the
 following markings:

 Made and published by the Director General of the OS, Chessington,
 Surrey 1960
 Reprinted with minor changes 1965

 Crown copyright (C) 1960

 Which date is used to calculate when the copyright will lapse? Would
 this either be either 1st Jan 2011 or 1st Jan 2016 or another date?

 Thanks,

 Tim Sheerman-Chase
 

 This email is only intended for the person to whom it is addressed  
 and
 may contain confidential information. If you have received this  
 email in
 error, please notify the sender and

Re: [OSM-talk] [tagging] Feature Proposal - landuse=orchard

2009-09-30 Thread Gustav Foseid

On Tue, Sep 29, 2009 at 1:54 PM, Emilie Laffray emilie.laff...@gmail.comwrote:

 That would mean that Mapnik needs to be checking a secondary field to
 determine what to display. If the renderer doesn't do that, you will end up
 with a map that is poorer in the end. In your case, that would mean
 increasing the size of the table produced by osm2pgsql by one extra column.
 Overall, you are increasing complexity with little or no benefits.
 I am not sure it makes sense in the end since were are getting exactly the
 same of information if you are using the tag directly in landuse.


If using farm as a base tag (or forest), you will make sure that thos not
interested in the details, still can use the data. To me that is a very
clear advantage.

You have two choices: Let those interested in detail check for details (two
tags) or require everyone to check for the details.

I fail to see any disadvantages of using landuse=farm + farm=orchard (or
something similar). Waisting a few bits in a database is simply not a
problem.

 - Gustav
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Re: [OSM-talk] Field boundaries

2009-09-30 Thread Peter Childs

2009/9/29 Dave F. dave...@madasafish.com:
 Peter Childs wrote:

 2009/9/28 Mark Williams mark@blueyonder.co.uk:


 -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
 Hash: SHA1

 courtland.yoc...@mindspring.com wrote:


 I've been thinking a bit about this from a very different perspective -
 that of parks and other open public areas where you might not have a chance
 to walk the perimeter ... for instance, you've a dog who really doesn't 
 want
 that boring walk around the edge, but bobs and weaves all about the space
 and this might be one of only a couple of potential visits you might be 
 able
 to make to the site.  I think that an accumulation of unordered points over
 time either by one person or multiple people who capture GPS information
 _incidentally_ would be useful in defining the core of the public (or
 private, in the case of tractors on farmland) space.  There's no need to
 gather tracks, merely points.  Let the accumulation of points define the
 space.  This is something of a corollary to the notion of wisdom of the
 crowd and it can be seen in action in the United States on major
 thoroughfares, such as the interstate highways, where the accumulation of
 multiple tracks over time can be u


 sed to define a way.


 user id on openstreemap = ceyockey

 


 If I'm out walking with the dogs, I tend to not go near the edge UNLESS
 I'm mapping, because they won't crawl under hedges if I'm already a fair
 way off, but will do so happily if it doesn't take them far. I suspect
 I'm not the only one, so you'd end up with a ludicrously fat hedge.

 I also tend not to go into corners  will often stop a little before the
 end of a field.

 Mark


 I think this is a case of Better to have a park with a ludicrously
 fat hedge than no hedge, or field at all. With average GPS only giving
 an accuracy of around 10-50 meters its not going to be far out anyway.

 Peter.


 I wouldn't be such as slave to your GPS.
 We all know of the apocryphal stories of GPS slaves who drive off  cliff
 faces.

 Just because you didn't walk to the corner doesn't mean you didn't survey
 it.
 If you're aware that the hedge isn't actually fat then don't map it as such,
 do it as you saw it.
 Your eyes are the most important/accurate piece of surveying equipment. If
 your minds not to hot though, take a camera/paper/pen.

 If  fields boundaries are straight, I rarely walk the whole perimeter, just
 parts of those boundaries  extrapolate.

 Either that, or train you dogs to do as you order :-)

 Cheers
 Dave F.



Better still strap the GPS to the Dog and let the Dog do the hard
work, You can then stand in the middle and do the stuff the dog can't.

Alas I don't have a dog and can't stand the animals either..

Peter.

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Re: [OSM-talk] [tagging] Feature Proposal - landuse=orchard

2009/9/30 Gustav Foseid gust...@gmail.com:

snip

+1

 I fail to see any disadvantages of using landuse=farm + farm=orchard (or
 something similar). Waisting a few bits in a database is simply not a
 problem.

If you pre-process the information, eg osm2pgsql drops the type of
farm use into the landuse field it wouldn't even waste database
columns.

Other software can do the same, store the default tag or store the use tag etc.

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[OSM-talk] Mobile countryside surveying tool

2009-09-30 Thread Nick Whitelegg

Hello everyone,

With all the talk of countryside surveying issues recently (placement of 
hedges etc) I'm wondering if it would be a good idea to develop some sort 
of mobile countryside surveying tool where people could note down, in the 
field, the placement of hedges relative to paths and the like.

If you think this would be useful please let me know and I can work on it, 
I will only bother if there is sufficient interest as I am quite busy with 
the 3D navigation project at the moment.

Target platform would be any device supporting JavaME.

Nick

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Re: [OSM-talk] Mobile countryside surveying tool

Nick Whitelegg wrote:
Sent: 30 September 2009 8:56 AM
To: talk@openstreetmap.org
Subject: [OSM-talk] Mobile countryside surveying tool

Hello everyone,

With all the talk of countryside surveying issues recently (placement of
hedges etc) I'm wondering if it would be a good idea to develop some sort
of mobile countryside surveying tool where people could note down, in the
field, the placement of hedges relative to paths and the like.

In the UK, the placement of field boundaries will be a lot easier once the
out of copyright 1:25k OS mapping is available online. They will still need
verifying that they still exist (many fields having been combined over the
years, but the mapping should give a good starting point for position and
shape.

Any tool that works to help this process, taking the cue from walking papers
perhaps, would be useful.

If you think this would be useful please let me know and I can work on it,
I will only bother if there is sufficient interest as I am quite busy with
the 3D navigation project at the moment.

Target platform would be any device supporting JavaME.

Nick

Cheers

Andy

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[OSM-talk] [tagging] Feature Proposal - Voting - Additional parking types for amenity=parking

2009-09-30 Thread Aleksandr Dezhin

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Additional_parking_types_for_amenity%3Dparking#Voting
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Re: [OSM-talk] Field boundaries

Nick Whitelegg wrote:
Sent: 24 September 2009 10:30 AM
To: Mike Harris
Cc: talk@openstreetmap.org
Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Field boundaries

Hi Mike,

OS one-inch (or 1:50k) mapping does not show field boundaries. But is
anyone working on out-of-copyright 1:25k (or larger scale) mapping?

Mike Harris

I believe Andy R is. Field boundaries would also be a great help in the 3D
navigation stuff I'm working on.

Correct, see http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Provisional/First_Edition
for current status.

I think most people who map the countryside do map gates and stiles btw.

I certainly do.

Cheers

Andy

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Re: [OSM-talk] Mobile countryside surveying tool

2009-09-30 Thread Sam Vekemans

And of course, the que from mapOSMatic, so to print off a rendered map
(with all the fixins), and simply draw on the map to make it better
:-)

Drawing all kinds of features, and with the GPS, just record the
waypoint # and write it directly on the map. And update the changes
later with JOSM.

Then i would call that maptastic!

Cheers,
Sam

On 9/30/09, Andy Robinson (blackadder-lists) ajrli...@googlemail.com wrote:
 Nick Whitelegg wrote:
Sent: 30 September 2009 8:56 AM
To: talk@openstreetmap.org
Subject: [OSM-talk] Mobile countryside surveying tool

Hello everyone,

With all the talk of countryside surveying issues recently (placement of
hedges etc) I'm wondering if it would be a good idea to develop some sort
of mobile countryside surveying tool where people could note down, in the
field, the placement of hedges relative to paths and the like.

 In the UK, the placement of field boundaries will be a lot easier once the
 out of copyright 1:25k OS mapping is available online. They will still need
 verifying that they still exist (many fields having been combined over the
 years, but the mapping should give a good starting point for position and
 shape.

 Any tool that works to help this process, taking the cue from walking papers
 perhaps, would be useful.


If you think this would be useful please let me know and I can work on it,
I will only bother if there is sufficient interest as I am quite busy with
the 3D navigation project at the moment.

Target platform would be any device supporting JavaME.

Nick

 Cheers

 Andy


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-- 
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Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/sam.vekemans

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Re: [OSM-talk] Field boundaries

Dave F. wrote:
Sent: 24 September 2009 6:36 PM
Cc: talk@openstreetmap.org
Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Field boundaries

Mike Harris wrote:
 Dave makes a good point - the most important thing for walkers in farmed
 rural areas is often to know on which side of the hedge / fence they
ought
 to be. OS 1:25k is fairly useless for this as the difference between one
 side of the hedge and the other is usually less than the registration
error
 between the OS overlays for public rights of way and the base map! Larger
 scale OS does not afaik show public rights of way as such - just 'paths'
and
 'tracks'. So OSM can offer something here.

 I will try to record fence / hedge stubs more often - especially when I
note
 that they do not agree with OS mapping!

 Mike Harris

I've always been disappointed with the quality of the OD 1:25k. These
are now all digitally stored yet the printed versions look like they've
been drawn with swan quills.

I've never understood why they used thicker linestyles to represent
paths than the 1:50k's . It just blocks out detail underneath it.

Many a time I have descended from the fells using OS 1:25k and compass only
to find the bearing was wrong because the footpath on the OS map has been
poorly drawn. And this situation is unlikely to change because the OS has no
surveying capacity to update this aspect of their mapping and it's not
something that can always be reliably adjusted from aerial photography.

You will generally find that the older 1:25k maps are better than current
day ones. Although the old maps don't have public rights of way they do show
many of the footpaths that later became public rights of way. On the old
maps they are drawn more finely so its much easier to see where they were
originally surveyed [1]. May help in some cases work out where a path goes
when its not clear on the ground although the best way to address that issue
is by asking the landowner. They normally now precisely and are probably a
better source of info than the local authority. 

Having said that there are still paths on the old maps that appear to be
drawn on a boundary rather than to one side of it.

[1] for an example see
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/images/a/a9/Portland_snip001.png (bottom half
of image)

Cheers

Andy

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Re: [OSM-talk] address interpolation

2009-09-30 Thread James Livingston

On 28/09/2009, at 2:22 PM, Marcus Wolschon wrote:
 25A-25C should work with addr:interpolation=alphabetic .
 However not all software that supports interpolation at all,
 supports this interpolation-mode yet.

 25-25A would not.

I'm not sure you how you can interpolate things like this correctly if  
you're just using a single interpolation way. For example I've seen  
both 23-25-25a-27 and 23-25a-25-27, with the 'a' house being whichever  
one was built second or isn't the primary residence.

Whenever I've encountered something like this, I've just broken the  
way up, so that there is one for ...-23, two plain nodes to 25 and  
25a, and another way for 27-.

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Re: [OSM-talk] Field boundaries

Peter Childs wrote:
Sent: 28 September 2009 3:42 PM
Cc: talk@openstreetmap.org
Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Field boundaries

2009/9/28 Mark Williams mark@blueyonder.co.uk:
 -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
 Hash: SHA1

 courtland.yoc...@mindspring.com wrote:
 I've been thinking a bit about this from a very different perspective -
that of parks and other open public areas where you might not have a chance
to walk the perimeter ... for instance, you've a dog who really doesn't
want that boring walk around the edge, but bobs and weaves all about the
space and this might be one of only a couple of potential visits you might
be able to make to the site.  I think that an accumulation of unordered
points over time either by one person or multiple people who capture GPS
information _incidentally_ would be useful in defining the core of the
public (or private, in the case of tractors on farmland) space.  There's no
need to gather tracks, merely points.  Let the accumulation of points
define the space.  This is something of a corollary to the notion of
wisdom of the crowd and it can be seen in action in the United States on
major thoroughfares, such as the interstate highways, where the
accumulation of multiple tracks over time can be u
 sed to define a way.

 user id on openstreemap = ceyockey

 If I'm out walking with the dogs, I tend to not go near the edge UNLESS
 I'm mapping, because they won't crawl under hedges if I'm already a fair
 way off, but will do so happily if it doesn't take them far. I suspect
 I'm not the only one, so you'd end up with a ludicrously fat hedge.

 I also tend not to go into corners  will often stop a little before the
 end of a field.

 Mark

I think this is a case of Better to have a park with a ludicrously
fat hedge than no hedge, or field at all. With average GPS only giving
an accuracy of around 10-50 meters its not going to be far out anyway.

Whoooh! Thats a bit ancient. With a modern high sensitivity receiver you
should be generally around 5m of error and certainly not more than 10m if
you are in sight or an SBAS Egnos/Wass satellite and your GPS can use it.

Cheers

Andy

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Re: [OSM-talk] Field boundaries

Dave F. wrote:
Sent: 29 September 2009 10:29 PM
To: Peter Childs
Cc: talk@openstreetmap.org
Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Field boundaries

Peter Childs wrote:
 2009/9/28 Mark Williams mark@blueyonder.co.uk:

 -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
 Hash: SHA1

 courtland.yoc...@mindspring.com wrote:

 I've been thinking a bit about this from a very different perspective -
that of parks and other open public areas where you might not have a chance
to walk the perimeter ... for instance, you've a dog who really doesn't
want that boring walk around the edge, but bobs and weaves all about the
space and this might be one of only a couple of potential visits you might
be able to make to the site.  I think that an accumulation of unordered
points over time either by one person or multiple people who capture GPS
information _incidentally_ would be useful in defining the core of the
public (or private, in the case of tractors on farmland) space.  There's no
need to gather tracks, merely points.  Let the accumulation of points
define the space.  This is something of a corollary to the notion of
wisdom of the crowd and it can be seen in action in the United States on
major thoroughfares, such as the interstate highways, where the
accumulation of multiple tracks over time can be u

 sed to define a way.

 user id on openstreemap = ceyockey

 If I'm out walking with the dogs, I tend to not go near the edge UNLESS
 I'm mapping, because they won't crawl under hedges if I'm already a fair
 way off, but will do so happily if it doesn't take them far. I suspect
 I'm not the only one, so you'd end up with a ludicrously fat hedge.

 I also tend not to go into corners  will often stop a little before the
 end of a field.

 Mark

 I think this is a case of Better to have a park with a ludicrously
 fat hedge than no hedge, or field at all. With average GPS only giving
 an accuracy of around 10-50 meters its not going to be far out anyway.

 Peter.

I wouldn't be such as slave to your GPS.
We all know of the apocryphal stories of GPS slaves who drive off  cliff
faces.

Just because you didn't walk to the corner doesn't mean you didn't
survey it.
If you're aware that the hedge isn't actually fat then don't map it as
such, do it as you saw it.
Your eyes are the most important/accurate piece of surveying equipment.
If your minds not to hot though, take a camera/paper/pen.

If  fields boundaries are straight, I rarely walk the whole perimeter,
just parts of those boundaries  extrapolate.

Either that, or train you dogs to do as you order :-)

Or better still, train dogs to walk only under hedges and fit them with a
GPS :-)

Cheers

Andy

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Re: [OSM-talk] Breach of Copyright?

2009-09-30 Thread Elizabeth Dodd

On Tue, 29 Sep 2009, John Smith wrote:
 2009/9/29  ed...@billiau.net:
  2009/9/29  ed...@billiau.net:
  Classic!
 
  I always thought the americans bastardised the english language, but I
  came to find out in recent years american english is an older form of
  english and well yea, they're backwards :)
 
  Spent the day interviewing prospective medical students
  they were given a 'scenario' concerning something with no clear answer
  eg should that south african runner run as a man or a woman?
  then formulate an argument and argue the point
  you would have been successful!

 ROFL

 You mean, is a genetic defect in the same category as taking illicit
 drugs or wearing a funny swim suit for an unfair advantage.

 Unless it was intentional genetic manipulation I doubt it, we as a
 society will always try to improve records, partially through
 selective breeding of sorts because putting elite althelets in close
 quarters is more likely to result in them producing off spring that
 have high sporting tendencies. Just because someone was born with a
 particular set of genes that give them an edge isn't their fault.

 Having said all that elite sport is a big money drain and as unlikely
 as it is it should be ditched because it does almost nothing to give
 back to society, how many top sports clubs in Australia give decent
 amounts of money to fund school sports, or better fund better
 teachers, generally not very much I bet.

 Was that the sort of answer you were after? :)
You would have 8 minutes to keep on talking
in which time you have to show that you can see more two sides to the argument 
and can think widely about the topic
I got to listen to 8 wishy-washy arguments on foreign doctors in Australia and 
2 good ones
Even being incredibly pushy like as a prospective medical student, how do you 
view international medical graduates? only got me one *they could take my 
job*


-- 
Habit is habit, and not to be flung out of the window by any man, but coaxed
down-stairs a step at a time.
-- Mark Twain, Pudd'nhead Wilson's Calendar


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Re: [OSM-talk] Clarifying and representing road markings at junctions

you could model it like this (see attached, colours are just
indicating the ways, not highway-classes)

cheers,
Martin
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Re: [OSM-talk] [tagging] Feature Proposal - landuse=orchard

2009-09-30 Thread Pieren

On Wed, Sep 30, 2009 at 8:28 AM, Gustav Foseid gust...@gmail.com wrote:
 If using farm as a base tag (or forest), you will make sure that thos not
 interested in the details, still can use the data. To me that is a very
 clear advantage.

 You have two choices: Let those interested in detail check for details (two
 tags) or require everyone to check for the details.


Sure. If I follow your principle, we could also replace:
shop=* by amenity=shop + shop=*
or
highway=* by highway=road + road=*
etc..

If you don't care about landuse values, then use landuse=*.
If you care about famland but not about orchard, then just use
landuse=farm|farmland.

Pieren

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Re: [OSM-talk] Field boundaries

2009-09-30 Thread Donald Allwright

Or better still, train dogs to walk only under hedges and fit them with a
GPS :-)

I can't help thinking that this would open up a whole new genre of 
geographical-based games, ranging from geocaching (where did I hide that bone?) 
and orienteering to canine endurance records (my dog walked 100 miles in 24 
hours, and here's the proof - 30092009.gpx). Having said that, you would 
presumably get gaps in the trace whenever the dog goes down a rabbit-hole that 
would require some interpolation when they come back out of a different exit!

Donald



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Re: [OSM-talk] address interpolation

2009-09-30 Thread marcus.wolschon

On Wed, 30 Sep 2009 18:51:35 +1000, James Livingston doc...@mac.com
wrote:
 On 28/09/2009, at 2:22 PM, Marcus Wolschon wrote:
 25A-25C should work with addr:interpolation=alphabetic .
 However not all software that supports interpolation at all,
 supports this interpolation-mode yet.

 25-25A would not.
 
 I'm not sure you how you can interpolate things like this correctly if  
 you're just using a single interpolation way. For example I've seen  
 both 23-25-25a-27 and 23-25a-25-27, with the 'a' house being whichever  
 one was built second or isn't the primary residence.

Basically...you can't.

 Whenever I've encountered something like this, I've just broken the  
 way up, so that there is one for ...-23, two plain nodes to 25 and  
 25a, and another way for 27-.

Thats okay.


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Re: [OSM-talk] [OSM-dev] Statistics on changesets by created_by=*


Eugene Alvin Villar wrote:
 Caveat: Only when considering the number of changesets. If one would like 
 to consider the number of primitives (nodes, ways, relations) edited then 
 the results will likely be different (I'm guessing the bulk imports would
 go 
 up a level or two).

The interesting thing there is that the added complications of API 0.6 (and
the occasional shonkiness of the bulk upload tools) mean that a lot of
people now appear to be doing their bulk uploads using JOSM. As a result, if
you considered the number of primitives I'm pretty sure that JOSM would be
way, way in front of any other editor.

Otherwise my theory du jour is that JOSM's current leading position is
largely because osm-fr couldn't be arsed to get their Cadastre stuff working
under any other editor. ;)

It's going to be interesting to see created_by=Mapzen start to appear in the
database...

cheers
Richard
-- 
View this message in context: 
http://www.nabble.com/Statistics-on-changesets-by-created_by%3D*-tp25667215p25678105.html
Sent from the OpenStreetMap - General mailing list archive at Nabble.com.


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Re: [OSM-talk] Clarifying and representing road markings at junctions

2009-09-30 Thread Richard Mann

You could record it as a type of turn-restriction relation, but I have a
prejudice against those, having copied them down a bus route for quite a way
until I realised I'd picked up a stray. That (of course) may be a problem
with the editor I'm using, but keeping it simple is always a good maxim.

So I'd much prefer a giveway instruction (giveway=yes or giveway=-1) on the
way that gives way, probably on a node near the junction, and inferring the
direction from the way that the node is on.

I lost the will to read when much the same issue was discussed with regard
to stop signs, so I don't know what the conclusion was (if any).

Richard
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Re: [OSM-talk] Field boundaries

Andy Robinson (blackadder-lists) wrote:
 Or better still, train dogs to walk only under hedges and fit them with a
 GPS :-)

   
What tag should we use for territorial pissings? ;)

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Re: [OSM-talk] [OSM-dev] Statistics on changesets by created_by=*

2009-09-30 Thread Emilie Laffray

2009/9/30 Richard Fairhurst rich...@systemed.net


 Otherwise my theory du jour is that JOSM's current leading position is
 largely because osm-fr couldn't be arsed to get their Cadastre stuff
 working
 under any other editor. ;)


I promise I will take Pieren code the day you have a fully working plugin
mechanism in Potlatch 2 to add the Cadastre ;)


 It's going to be interesting to see created_by=Mapzen start to appear in
 the
 database...


Indeed.

Emilie Laffray
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Re: [OSM-talk] Clarifying and representing road markings at junctions

2009-09-30 Thread David Earl

On 30/09/2009 10:20, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
 you could model it like this (see attached, colours are just
 indicating the ways, not highway-classes)

Yes, that's also what I typically do, e.g.
http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=52.596517lon=0.376144zoom=18layers=B000FTF

Even though the kerb doesn't have a bend in it, if the road markings 
indicate the priority goes round the corner I generally put a kink in 
the way to show this. Though that example, the road name carries round 
the corner too, that's not always the case. Here, for example:
http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=52.330664lon=0.344934zoom=18layers=B000FTF
Brook Street is also the name of the little stub, but the road markings 
make it clear that the priority is around the corner into Tanners Lane.

David




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Re: [OSM-talk] [OSM-dev] Statistics on changesets by created_by=*

Emilie Laffray wrote:

 I promise I will take Pieren code the day you have a fully working plugin
 mechanism in Potlatch 2 to add the Cadastre ;)

Now there's a challenge! You're on.

cheers
Richard


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Re: [OSM-talk] Mobile countryside surveying tool

Nick Whitelegg wrote:
 Hello everyone,

 With all the talk of countryside surveying issues recently (placement of 
 hedges etc) I'm wondering if it would be a good idea to develop some sort 
 of mobile countryside surveying tool where people could note down, in the 
 field, the placement of hedges relative to paths and the like.

 If you think this would be useful please let me know and I can work on it, 
 I will only bother if there is sufficient interest as I am quite busy with 
 the 3D navigation project at the moment.

 Target platform would be any device supporting JavaME.

 Nick

   
Hi Nick

I'd be interested. What format would this take?

Cheers
Dave F.

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Re: [OSM-talk] Field boundaries

2009-09-30 Thread Peter Childs

2009/9/30 Dave F. dave...@madasafish.com:
 Andy Robinson (blackadder-lists) wrote:

 Or better still, train dogs to walk only under hedges and fit them with a
 GPS :-)



 What tag should we use for territorial pissings? ;)


I think that would have to be an admin_level=11 or maybe 12.

Peter.

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Re: [OSM-talk] Mobile countryside surveying tool

2009/9/30 Nick Whitelegg nick.whitel...@solent.ac.uk:

 Target platform would be any device supporting JavaME.

Why JavaME exactly?

It's kind of getting long in the tooth compared to JVMs running on
modern smart phones

Not to mention smart phones usually have a soft or hard keyboard,
rather than twiddling about with 12 keys to type things out

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Re: [OSM-talk] address interpolation

2009-09-30 Thread David Earl

On 30/09/2009 09:51, James Livingston wrote:
 On 28/09/2009, at 2:22 PM, Marcus Wolschon wrote:
 25A-25C should work with addr:interpolation=alphabetic .
 However not all software that supports interpolation at all,
 supports this interpolation-mode yet.

 25-25A would not.
 
 I'm not sure you how you can interpolate things like this correctly if  
 you're just using a single interpolation way. For example I've seen  
 both 23-25-25a-27 and 23-25a-25-27, with the 'a' house being whichever  
 one was built second or isn't the primary residence.
 
 Whenever I've encountered something like this, I've just broken the  
 way up, so that there is one for ...-23, two plain nodes to 25 and  
 25a, and another way for 27-.

I wasn't suggesting that 23 would be included in the interpolation, 
merely that the first item of an alphabetic interpolation could be no 
letter. Presumably you could start at B or D, so why not no letter at 
all, it's not ambiguous.

And I think the previous point about other alphabets is a red herring 
too: basically no letter can precede all other letters in whatever 
alphabet. If there's ambiguity in the alphabet due to the glyph 
appearing in more than one, then that's a problem anyway, and would, 
perhaps need a tag to sequence. (Of course if the way of sequencing 
houses in another alphabet doesn't follow lexical ordering then all bets 
are off anyway).

It's not a big deal this, it just seems to fit the circumstances more 
naturally. In the case I was dealing with it would have meant I could have
   25-25D  27-27C  29-29C
instead of
   25  25A-25D  27 27A-27C  29  29A-29C
the first non-lettered item belongs naturally in that sequence 
(especially as on the ground, the each of the 25's, 27's and 29's were 
physically joined as terraces), and certainly in the UK there's 
generally no A without a corresponding no-letter in the sequence. 
OTOH, letters  A are pretty unusual, and I am surprised they didn't 
renumber the street in this instance, as everything nearby had been 
rebuilt as well and they'd even move a street name from one street to 
another.

David


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Re: [OSM-talk] Flickr Now Supports OSM Tags

2009-09-30 Thread Dave Stubbs

On Tue, Sep 29, 2009 at 10:42 PM, Dave F. dave...@madasafish.com wrote:
 Frankie Roberto wrote:
 2009/9/29 Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com
 mailto:dieterdre...@gmail.com

      It works for building=yes, but not building=true. Well, Flickr says
      This is a feature in OpenStreetMap instead of $name is a
     building in
      OpenStreetMap.
     
      Did I miss a vital clue where yes and true are not interchangable? I
      thought yes was just a synonym for true, but I could be wrong.
     Is there
      a guidance page on this difference?

     for building all values are correct, as building=* (or user
     defined) is defined.
     (this doesn't mean that for other keys it would not be correct to
     use user defined-values of course).


 Indeed.

 As to yes/no vs true/false vs 1/0 though, I think there was a
 discussion about this ages ago, and the conclusion seemed to be (from
 memory) that yes/no was the preferred/most common approach.   (Guess
 renderers should probably accept all three forms though).


 This appears like a good example of the laxity of tagging rules within
 OSM is causing problems with the implementation of it.


They also got motorway and cycle path tagging wrong (at least in the
blog). I wouldn't read too much into it, especially as they said,
we’ve almost certainly got at least some of it wrong but hopefully we
got part of it right and can correct the rest as we go

Dave

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Re: [OSM-talk] Field boundaries

2009-09-30 Thread Emilie Laffray

2009/9/30 Andy Robinson (blackadder-lists) ajrli...@googlemail.com

 Whoooh! That’s a bit ancient. With a modern high sensitivity receiver you
 should be generally around 5m of error and certainly not more than 10m if
 you are in sight or an SBAS Egnos/Wass satellite and your GPS can use it.


Yup, this is the precision that you are going to get in average nowadays.

Emilie Laffray
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Re: [OSM-talk] Flickr Now Supports OSM Tags

Dave Stubbs wrote:
 I wouldn't read too much into it, especially as they said,
 we’ve almost certainly got at least some of it wrong but hopefully we
 got part of it right and can correct the rest as we go

 Dave

   
You see, this is the problem. I don't think, in this instance, they've 
done anything wrong. This is an OSM cock-up.
I think it's quite selfish to expect others to pick up the pieces of, 
what I see, as lazy implementation.

Who, within OSM  in their right sense of mind, would object to being 
forced to use just Yes/No. I mean it's just an on/off switch!

Cheers
Dave F.


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Re: [OSM-talk] Field boundaries

Emilie Laffray wrote:


 2009/9/30 Andy Robinson (blackadder-lists) ajrli...@googlemail.com 
 mailto:ajrli...@googlemail.com

 Whoooh! That’s a bit ancient. With a modern high sensitivity
 receiver you
 should be generally around 5m of error and certainly not more than
 10m if
 you are in sight or an SBAS Egnos/Wass satellite and your GPS can
 use it.


 Yup, this is the precision that you are going to get in average nowadays.

 Emilie Laffray

Sorry, Andy  Emilie, that some of us can't afford the latest 
super-dooper latest offerings of receivers.

Maybe you'd like to subsidies those of us who are 'so last year'?

Dave F.

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Re: [OSM-talk] Flickr Now Supports OSM Tags

Hi,

Dave F. wrote:
 Who, within OSM  in their right sense of mind, would object to being 
 forced to use just Yes/No. I mean it's just an on/off switch!

Says who?

Bye
Frederik


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Re: [OSM-talk] Field boundaries

2009-09-30 Thread Emilie Laffray

2009/9/30 Dave F. dave...@madasafish.com

 Emilie Laffray wrote:



 2009/9/30 Andy Robinson (blackadder-lists) ajrli...@googlemail.commailto:
 ajrli...@googlemail.com

Whoooh! That’s a bit ancient. With a modern high sensitivity
receiver you
should be generally around 5m of error and certainly not more than
10m if
you are in sight or an SBAS Egnos/Wass satellite and your GPS can
use it.


 Yup, this is the precision that you are going to get in average nowadays.

 Emilie Laffray


 Sorry, Andy  Emilie, that some of us can't afford the latest super-dooper
 latest offerings of receivers.

 Maybe you'd like to subsidies those of us who are 'so last year'?


Before I subsidize you, I should consider subsidizing myself first. I don't
have a GPS that can track. I only have a GPS for my digital camera to geotag
pictures that fits on the hot shoe of my camera.
Making a statement that current receivers have this precision doesn't mean
that we are pushing everyone to upgrade their GPS.

Emilie Laffray
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Re: [OSM-talk] Flickr Now Supports OSM Tags

Frederik Ramm wrote:
 Hi,

 Dave F. wrote:
 Who, within OSM  in their right sense of mind, would object to being 
 forced to use just Yes/No. I mean it's just an on/off switch!

 Says who?

Err... I do.
Could you expand on why you might think otherwise?

Cheers
Dave F.

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[OSM-talk] Tiger data and county lines

2009-09-30 Thread Tim Litwiller

I've been noticing that in the US tiger data in central Kansas - ways do 
not cross county lines. Each county has their own county line road and 
the roads from that county connect to it - but it overlays the next 
countys county line road. Is there some automated way to select both 
ways and merge them into one way with the roads from each direction 
connecting also?



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[OSM-talk] Overlay showing wikipedia links

2009-09-30 Thread andrzej zaborowski

Hi,

seeing that features that get visualised in some form somewhere (e.g.
on a slippymap on the web) get mapped more often than other features,
I've set up an overlay that shows the External Links (proposal at
[1]), most importantly links to wikipedia pages [2] directly from
objects in OSM.

It's at http://www.openstreetmap.pl/wp (see caveats below).

I want to encourage the use of the wikipedia= tag, I think it gets us
a little closer the the Tim Berners-Lee's Linked Data.  The overlay
has been on my todo list for for a long time, I think other people
have had the same idea.  I first saw a wikipedia overlay implemented
at targeo.pl, a commercial map provider for Poland, long before
google.

Limitations:

 * the page probably doesn't work in browsers other than Firefox
because I have not used OpenLayers with its nice browser compatibility
features like VML support.

 * it will happily load more objects than the recommended maximum into
the browser's memory if you zoom into a place with a high wikipedia=
density.

 * USA is not imported because I have had problems with some PostGIS
queries returning things like:

NOTICE:  TopologyException: side location conflict -1.28212e+07 4.29532e+06
ERROR:  GEOS intersects() threw an error!

 It's the ST_Intersects function causing the errors and I can't tell
whether it's a problem with osm2pgsql or PostGIS itself.  Surely
PostGIS should prevent incorrect geometries to be loaded into the
database?

 * Other things may be broken.


Features:

 * Blue dots are wikipedia links, grey dots are other External Links
(website= and url= tags).  The wikipedia= value syntax is
two-letter-code:Title or Title alone for English wikipedia.  It
doesn't matter which wikipedia language you link to, the page is
always displayed in your chosen language, if available.

 * Ways and polygons tagged with wikipedia= are also displayed, my
city has especially many buildings, parks and other areas tagged this
way by myself and user:Mala.  UK has some and US has a bunch of town
boundaries tagged this way (but you can't see USA there).

  http://www.openstreetmap.pl/wp?lat=52.2294lon=21.0216zoom=13 -
move mouse over the city, zoom in and out to see up to individual
buildings and streets, especially around here:
http://www.openstreetmap.pl/wp?lat=52.23935lon=21.0131zoom=16 (at
this point the page becomes hard to use.. but since it's only for
show...)

 * The features data is tiled in the hope that the tiles will be
cached by the browser.  There are 6 zoom levels.  The continents level
does not come from data in OSM.

 * You can zoom further than mapnik tiles go, up to z20 to have the
tiles enlarged up to a point where they look really ugly ([3]) but
perhaps good from accessibility standpoint.  I based on Bernhard
Zwischenbrugger's excellent zoom zoom zoom map instead of OpenLayers.
Perhaps I'm just really bad at using OpenLayers but there are a couple
of things I just couldn't figure out how to implement in OpenLayers.
The wikipedia overlay alone would probably be trivial to do in OL
though.  Contrary to OL my wikipedia layer supports tile retrieval
through both XMLHttpRequest or JSON-P.  (JSON-P will probably kill
browser caching though)

 * The first picture from every wikipedia page is displayed.  As you
will notice, this is not always such a good idea.

 * Last week I implemented a couple of redirects that you can use in
your web apps for the language-code:Title style wikipedia links,
they're explained in [4] in Polish.  I can document them on the wiki
if there's demand.  In a nutshell:

  http://wp.openstreetmap.pl/fr:16e arrondissement de Paris
redirects to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/16th_arrondissement_of_Paris
if your browser language is set to English.
  http://en.wp.openstreetmap.pl/fr:16e arrondissement de Paris
redirects to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/16th_arrondissement_of_Paris
always.
  http://en.cached-wp.openstreetmap.pl/fr:16e arrondissement de
Paris redirects to
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/16th_arrondissement_of_Paris using a 301
HTTP redirect.  The Wikipedia API query is done on my pc instead of
your browser, and the response cached.
  http://image.openstreetmap.pl/fr:16e arrondissement de Paris
redirects to the first image on the page using a HTTP 301 - you can
use this URL in a img src=... / tag.

 Only wikipedias with a two-letter code are supported for the moment.

Cheers
---
1. http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/External_links
2. http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:wikipedia
3. http://www.openstreetmap.pl/wp?lat=52.236473lon=21.015239zoom=19
4. http://forum.openstreetmap.org/viewtopic.php?pid=38233#p38233

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Re: [OSM-talk] Mobile countryside surveying tool

2009-09-30 Thread Kai Krueger

Nick Whitelegg wrote:
 Hello everyone,
 
 With all the talk of countryside surveying issues recently (placement of 
 hedges etc) I'm wondering if it would be a good idea to develop some sort 
 of mobile countryside surveying tool where people could note down, in the 
 field, the placement of hedges relative to paths and the like.

This sounds interesting, but could you describe a bit more what you had 
in mind? I would particularly be interested to know how it would differ 
to the already existing mobile tools and if it is not possible to add 
this functionality to them, given that you can do a fair amount with 
them already. If your ideas aren't too radically different, I might be 
able to (help) add some of these to GpsMid.

 
 If you think this would be useful please let me know and I can work on it, 
 I will only bother if there is sufficient interest as I am quite busy with 
 the 3D navigation project at the moment.

 
 Target platform would be any device supporting JavaME.
 
 Nick
 
 


Kai

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Re: [OSM-talk] Tiger data and county lines

2009-09-30 Thread Andy Allan

On Wed, Sep 30, 2009 at 2:37 PM, Tim Litwiller t...@litwiller.net wrote:
 I've been noticing that in the US tiger data in central Kansas - ways do
 not cross county lines. Each county has their own county line road and
 the roads from that county connect to it - but it overlays the next
 countys county line road. Is there some automated way to select both
 ways and merge them into one way with the roads from each direction
 connecting also?

No, there's no automated way - but it's not too hard to fix up by hand
(and, more importantly, use the aerial imagery to fix alignment etc at
the same time).

Thankfully we have 1,000s of people who can help out!

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/TIGER_fixup

Cheers,
Andy

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Re: [OSM-talk] Mobile countryside surveying tool

2009-09-30 Thread Nick Whitelegg

Why JavaME exactly?

It's kind of getting long in the tooth compared to JVMs running on
modern smart phones

Not to mention smart phones usually have a soft or hard keyboard,
rather than twiddling about with 12 keys to type things out

To try and support as many as possible - Qt is another option when the 
Symbian version becomes available, Android is interesting but maybe not 
widespread enough yet, iPhone is platform specific (and has to be approved 
by Apple which is a big problem), .NET again is platform specific.

I'm not sure that many modern phones support full Java do they? For 
instance the Nokia N-series (which are usually considered smartphones) use 
Java ME, not full Java.

Nick

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Re: [OSM-talk] Flickr Now Supports OSM Tags

2009/9/30 Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason ava...@gmail.com:
 Which tag were you talking about that you thought was simply a yes/no
 option?

 As Kyle Gordon brought up in this thread the issue is that the OSM
 data has both building=yes/no and building=true/false and flickr only
 supports the former.

but as already pointed out, building is the worst example for
normalisation as it's definition encourages users to put every
user-defined-value they like.

cheers,
Martin

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Re: [OSM-talk] Flickr Now Supports OSM Tags

2009-09-30 Thread Jonathan Bennett

Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason wrote:
  As Kyle Gordon brought up in this thread the issue is that the OSM
 data has both building=yes/no and building=true/false and flickr only
 supports the former.
 
 Dave F. suggested that the OSM database be normalized to just use the
 former because that's simpler.

He seemed to be suggesting that the values be *constrained* to only
those two values, which creates as many problems as it solves, since it
precludes using a precise value for building=*, such as building=house.

-- 
Jonathan (Jonobennett)

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Re: [OSM-talk] Tiger data and county lines

2009-09-30 Thread Mike N.

 I've been noticing that in the US tiger data in central Kansas - ways do
 not cross county lines. Each county has their own county line road and
 the roads from that county connect to it - but it overlays the next
 countys county line road. Is there some automated way to select both
 ways and merge them into one way with the roads from each direction
 connecting also?

  I'm not sure that it can be easily automated - an approach that would work 
in some situations will fail in others. That being said, merging 
congruent ways and nodes using the longest of the 2 ways, assuming that 
they're both Tiger 'roads' of the same name could work.But frequently 
the names are also different and I have had to manually untangle and guess. 
I would not want someone to unleash a bot unless it could be demonstrated 
that it would improve 98% of the cases, which have the most complicated 
topology at county lines.

   Somewhat related, I would like to see common tiger cleanup situations 
clarified for both Potlatch and JOSM.

JOSM -
  How to select a way underneath another way?   Usually admin boundaries are 
selected when trying to select the way.   When there are 2 duplicate ways 
and nodes under an admin boundary, this is very time consuming.

  Potlatch -
 How to merge duplicate nodes?  The only thing I could come up with 
after studying the manual is delete the last node of one of the ways, then 
redraw to connect back to the other way.
   How to select a way underneath another way?   (I haven't tried this, but 
the manual only refers to 2 ways sharing common nodes, with '/' to select 
the bottom way).
 


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Re: [OSM-talk] Flickr Now Supports OSM Tags

Jonathan Bennett wrote:
 He seemed to be suggesting that the values be *constrained* to only
 those two values, which creates as many problems as it solves, since it
 precludes using a precise value for building=*, such as building=house.

   
Martin/Jonathan - Please see my reply at 15:44



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Re: [OSM-talk] Flickr Now Supports OSM Tags

Hi,

Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason wrote:
 As Kyle Gordon brought up in this thread the issue is that the OSM
 data has both building=yes/no and building=true/false and flickr only
 supports the former.

Yes but OSM data also has 200,000 building=hut, 25,000 
building=residential, 20,000 building=industrial, 10,000 
building=apartements, 5,000 building=detached, 3,000 
building=house, 2,000 building=garages... down to a 
building=bubblehall and a building=beehive.

 Dave F. suggested that the OSM database be normalized to just use the
 former because that's simpler.

So what exactly did he want to normalise?

Bye
Frederik

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Re: [OSM-talk] Flickr Now Supports OSM Tags

Hi,

Dave F. wrote:
 I don't understand why others should have to spend 
 time sorting out OSM's vagaries purely because we can't decide.

The yes/no question may be the most trivial of cases but generally we 
are reluctant to force a structure onto our mappers. When choosing 
between something that restricts our mappers and something that makes 
life more difficult for our users, we always choose the second because 
mappers are more precious than users.

Granted, there's not much creativity or personal style involved in 
choosing between yes/no and true/false so mappers would probably not 
object to that; but in general the idea let's have a rigid structure so 
that life becomes easier for our users is not what we want.

Bye
Frederik

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Re: [OSM-talk] Mobile countryside surveying tool

2009/10/1 Nick Whitelegg nick.whitel...@solent.ac.uk:
 To try and support as many as possible - Qt is another option when the
 Symbian version becomes available, Android is interesting but maybe not
 widespread enough yet, iPhone is platform specific (and has to be approved
 by Apple which is a big problem), .NET again is platform specific.

The company I work for has released a BB/Android app to do POI stuff,
we may release an iPhone/WinMo and Symbian versions in future
depending on interest etc.

There is a diff app to do vector editing on android but it's too
hard/difficult to bother with to be honest, to be completely frank I
found trying to map by phone too cumbersome and bought an eeePC as
carting about a full size laptop was too much of a hassle too.

Cloud Made is supposed to be releasing an iPhone app, but that seems
to be vapour ware at present.

 I'm not sure that many modern phones support full Java do they? For
 instance the Nokia N-series (which are usually considered smartphones) use
 Java ME, not full Java.

As far as I'm aware only blackberry supports j2me apps. There is an
emulator for android but it sucks and doesn't work very well if at all
for any of the apps I tried.

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Re: [OSM-talk] Mobile countryside surveying tool


John Smith wrote:
 The company I work for has released a BB/Android app to do POI 
 stuff, we may release an iPhone/WinMo and Symbian versions in 
 future depending on interest etc.

Shit, you mean you actually have a productive job rather than just posting
inconsequential rubbish to the mailing lists all day?

Richard
-- 
View this message in context: 
http://www.nabble.com/Mobile-countryside-surveying-tool-tp25676557p25682919.html
Sent from the OpenStreetMap - General mailing list archive at Nabble.com.


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Re: [OSM-talk] Flickr Now Supports OSM Tags

2009-09-30 Thread Chris Hill

Dave F. wrote:
 Dave Stubbs wrote:
   
 I wouldn't read too much into it, especially as they said,
 we’ve almost certainly got at least some of it wrong but hopefully we
 got part of it right and can correct the rest as we go

 Dave

   
 
 You see, this is the problem. I don't think, in this instance, they've 
 done anything wrong. This is an OSM cock-up.
 I think it's quite selfish to expect others to pick up the pieces of, 
 what I see, as lazy implementation.

 Who, within OSM  in their right sense of mind, would object to being 
 forced to use just Yes/No. I mean it's just an on/off switch!

   
Yeah, OK Dave, we've got the message, you don't free-format tags.  
Unfortunately you're going to have to get used to it, because it is the 
basis of the OPENstreetmap and, in my opinion, one of the reasons it is 
as successful as it is. 

Cheers, Chris

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Re: [OSM-talk] Mobile countryside surveying tool

2009/10/1 Richard Fairhurst rich...@systemed.net:

 John Smith wrote:
 The company I work for has released a BB/Android app to do POI
 stuff, we may release an iPhone/WinMo and Symbian versions in
 future depending on interest etc.

 Shit, you mean you actually have a productive job rather than just posting
 inconsequential rubbish to the mailing lists all day?

Perhaps you should heed your own advice occasionally.

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Re: [OSM-talk] Mobile countryside surveying tool

John Smith wrote:

 Perhaps you should heed your own advice occasionally.

166 vs 26 postings to talk@ in September thus far, but you know, I  
guess I've got a few hours to catch you up yet.

Richard


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Re: [OSM-talk] Tiger data and county lines

2009-09-30 Thread Alex Mauer

On 09/30/2009 09:46 AM, Mike N. wrote:
 
 JOSM -
   How to select a way underneath another way?   Usually admin boundaries are 
 selected when trying to select the way.   When there are 2 duplicate ways 
 and nodes under an admin boundary, this is very time consuming.

middle-click and hold to bring up a context menu; begin holding Ctrl
key; mouse over the way you’re trying to select; release mouse button;
release Ctrl.

-Alex Mauer “hawke”



signature.asc
Description: OpenPGP digital signature
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Re: [OSM-talk] Mobile countryside surveying tool

2009-09-30 Thread Nick Whitelegg

This sounds interesting, but could you describe a bit more what you had 
in mind? I would particularly be interested to know how it would differ 
to the already existing mobile tools and if it is not possible to add 
this functionality to them, given that you can do a fair amount with 
them already. If your ideas aren't too radically different, I might be 
able to (help) add some of these to GpsMid.

A notes sort of app, where you could add a geo-located note in a field 
reading Hedge to left of path, Hedge continues to field corner and 
meets the fence on south side of field, Path becomes track here, 
Another track crosses path, etc: these notes could be uploaded to a 
server (perhaps OpenStreetBugs) and then made available in JOSM, or 
Potlatch, as a separate layer.

Nick

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Re: [OSM-talk] Flickr Now Supports OSM Tags

2009-09-30 Thread Dave Stubbs

On Wed, Sep 30, 2009 at 2:02 PM, Dave F. dave...@madasafish.com wrote:
 Dave Stubbs wrote:
 I wouldn't read too much into it, especially as they said,
 we’ve almost certainly got at least some of it wrong but hopefully we
 got part of it right and can correct the rest as we go

 Dave


 You see, this is the problem. I don't think, in this instance, they've
 done anything wrong. This is an OSM cock-up.
 I think it's quite selfish to expect others to pick up the pieces of,
 what I see, as lazy implementation.

 Who, within OSM  in their right sense of mind, would object to being
 forced to use just Yes/No. I mean it's just an on/off switch!



This is more about making it easier to edit than anything else.
Currently users have to type stuff in or use some preset entry
mechanism which doesn't really present the data to the user afterwards
and allow them to edit it. Historically users had no option but to
type values, and so you get this variation.

In the future I'm imagining users are going to be using much more
friendly interfaces to edit the common tags, and these interfaces will
tend to normalise the values a little.
See the developing potlatch 2 for the kind of thing I mean:
http://dev.openstreetmap.org/~random/potlatch2/potlatch2.html
(click on ways to see the tag editing interfaces)

But anyway, yes, there's some variation that data users will have to
deal with, but that's just the way it is.

Dave

PS. anyone notice the Potlatch 2 plug?! Any AS3/Flex developers around
who want to help out?
Code is in svn at:
 http://trac.openstreetmap.org/browser/applications/editors/potlatch2

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Re: [OSM-talk] Flickr Now Supports OSM Tags

2009-09-30 Thread SteveC


On 30 Sep 2009, at 08:15, Chris Hill wrote:

 Dave F. wrote:
 Dave Stubbs wrote:

 I wouldn't read too much into it, especially as they said,
 we’ve almost certainly got at least some of it wrong but  
 hopefully we
 got part of it right and can correct the rest as we go

 Dave



 You see, this is the problem. I don't think, in this instance,  
 they've
 done anything wrong. This is an OSM cock-up.
 I think it's quite selfish to expect others to pick up the pieces of,
 what I see, as lazy implementation.

 Who, within OSM  in their right sense of mind, would object to being
 forced to use just Yes/No. I mean it's just an on/off switch!


 Yeah, OK Dave, we've got the message, you don't free-format tags.
 Unfortunately you're going to have to get used to it, because it is  
 the
 basis of the OPENstreetmap and, in my opinion, one of the reasons it  
 is
 as successful as it is.

+1

Yours c.

Steve


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Re: [OSM-talk] Flickr Now Supports OSM Tags


Dave Stubbs wrote:
 PS. anyone notice the Potlatch 2 plug?! Any AS3/Flex developers 
 around who want to help out? Code is in svn at:
 http://trac.openstreetmap.org/browser/applications/editors/potlatch2

It is really, really awesome, do come and play. So far we have a beautifully
extensible yet friendly tagging interface; real Mapnik-like rendering via a
completely customisable CSS stylesheet; OAuth support like all the cool kids
are doing; and the basics of geometry editing. Lots more to come, so do join
in.

cheers
Richard
-- 
View this message in context: 
http://www.nabble.com/Flickr-Now-Supports-OSM-Tags-tp2565p25684862.html
Sent from the OpenStreetMap - General mailing list archive at Nabble.com.


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Re: [OSM-talk] Flickr Now Supports OSM Tags

Frederik Ramm wrote:
 Hi,

 Dave F. wrote:
 I don't understand why others should have to spend time sorting out 
 OSM's vagaries purely because we can't decide.

 The yes/no question may be the most trivial of cases but generally we 
 are reluctant to force a structure onto our mappers. 
But passing it on to others is somehow seen as acceptable?!
 When choosing between something that restricts our mappers and 
 something that makes life more difficult for our users, we always 
 choose the second because mappers are more precious than users.
I'm not convinced by that argument. Choice does not necessarily make 
things simpler.

 Granted, there's not much creativity or personal style involved in 
 choosing between yes/no and true/false so mappers would probably not 
 object to that; but in general the idea let's have a rigid structure 
 so that life becomes easier for our users is not what we want.
If, by users, you mean the likes of Flickr, then I have to disagree with 
you.
The vast, vast majority of manufacturers spend a lot of time trying to 
make their products simple to use so they sell more units.

Also, in this instance, how would disallowing True/False, 1/0 make it 
rigid or have less choice? Because they all represent the same options, 
nothing would be lost.

Cheers
Dave F.

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Re: [OSM-talk] Flickr Now Supports OSM Tags

2009-09-30 Thread Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason

On Wed, Sep 30, 2009 at 4:44 PM, Richard Fairhurst rich...@systemed.net wrote:
 Dave Stubbs wrote:
 PS. anyone notice the Potlatch 2 plug?! Any AS3/Flex developers
 around who want to help out? Code is in svn at:
 http://trac.openstreetmap.org/browser/applications/editors/potlatch2

 It is really, really awesome, do come and play. So far we have a beautifully
 extensible yet friendly tagging interface; real Mapnik-like rendering via a
 completely customisable CSS stylesheet; OAuth support like all the cool kids
 are doing; and the basics of geometry editing. Lots more to come, so do join
 in.

Do you have a bugtracker or some list of issues you're working towards
before you can release it? I couldn't find anything.

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Re: [OSM-talk] Flickr Now Supports OSM Tags

Dave Stubbs wrote:
 On Wed, Sep 30, 2009 at 2:02 PM, Dave F. dave...@madasafish.com wrote:
   
 Dave Stubbs wrote:
 
 I wouldn't read too much into it, especially as they said,
 we’ve almost certainly got at least some of it wrong but hopefully we
 got part of it right and can correct the rest as we go

 Dave


   
 You see, this is the problem. I don't think, in this instance, they've
 done anything wrong. This is an OSM cock-up.
 I think it's quite selfish to expect others to pick up the pieces of,
 what I see, as lazy implementation.

 Who, within OSM  in their right sense of mind, would object to being
 forced to use just Yes/No. I mean it's just an on/off switch!

 


 This is more about making it easier to edit than anything else.
 Currently users have to type stuff in or use some preset entry
 mechanism which doesn't really present the data to the user afterwards
 and allow them to edit it. Historically users had no option but to
 type values, and so you get this variation.

   
This looks excellent  will certainly reduce the erroneously tags.

Thanks
Dave F.

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Re: [OSM-talk] Flickr Now Supports OSM Tags

Hi,

Dave F. wrote:
 If, by users, you mean the likes of Flickr, 

I do. They have resources to bring our data into the shape they want it 
in. I'm not saying let's make it extra difficult for them - but I don't 
see that we should change anything just because someone might like our 
data better that way.

 The vast, vast majority of manufacturers spend a lot of time trying to 
 make their products simple to use so they sell more units.

So what - we're not a manufacturer, and we're not selling anything. We 
don't have paid staff. We are a bunch of people making a map; we're not 
offering a service to anybody. If people like what they see, they are 
welcome to use it; if they don't like what they see, they are welcome to 
join and improve things. Easy as that.

Bye
Frederik


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Re: [OSM-talk] Overlay showing wikipedia links

2009-09-30 Thread Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason

On Wed, Sep 30, 2009 at 1:49 PM, andrzej zaborowski balr...@gmail.com wrote:
 It's at http://www.openstreetmap.pl/wp (see caveats below).

Neat.

  * Blue dots are wikipedia links, grey dots are other External Links
 (website= and url= tags).  The wikipedia= value syntax is
 two-letter-code:Title or Title alone for English wikipedia.  It
 doesn't matter which wikipedia language you link to, the page is
 always displayed in your chosen language, if available.

We have a lot of wikipedia:code=title form in our database. That
seems to be the recommended practice so perhaps you should support
that too:

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:wikipedia#Multiple_languages

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Re: [OSM-talk] Field boundaries

2009-09-30 Thread Mike Harris

Not sure I entirely agree ...

1. Many of the public rights of way drawn on OS maps - especially in upland
areas - are approximations done by someone sitting at a desk - so the GPS
work on the ground is invaluable. Even the lines on the definitive maps are
often approximations drawn by a desk worker with a ruler rather than by
someone in the field.

2. Having said that, the line in the definitive statement (and the
definitive map if not contradictory to the statement) is usually the legal
right of way (until altered by a DMMO) - even if it's nuts.

3. Wouldn't have so much faith in landowners - many of them don't really
know where the rights of way lie until there is an issue (so many problems
arise from sloppy conveyancing survey practices and people tend to believe
their solicitors (;). The Highway Authority holds the definitive map and
statement. Both are open on request to public inspection and are
authoritative - whatever the landowner may say! (again - even if nuts!).

Mike Harris
 

 -Original Message-
 From: Andy Robinson (blackadder-lists) 
 [mailto:ajrli...@googlemail.com] 
 Sent: 30 September 2009 09:52
 To: 'Dave F.'
 Cc: talk@openstreetmap.org
 Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Field boundaries
 
 Dave F. wrote:
 Sent: 24 September 2009 6:36 PM
 Cc: talk@openstreetmap.org
 Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Field boundaries
 
 Mike Harris wrote:
  Dave makes a good point - the most important thing for walkers in 
  farmed rural areas is often to know on which side of the hedge / 
  fence they
 ought
  to be. OS 1:25k is fairly useless for this as the 
 difference between 
  one side of the hedge and the other is usually less than the 
  registration
 error
  between the OS overlays for public rights of way and the base map! 
  Larger scale OS does not afaik show public rights of way 
 as such - just 'paths'
 and
  'tracks'. So OSM can offer something here.
 
  I will try to record fence / hedge stubs more often - 
 especially when 
  I
 note
  that they do not agree with OS mapping!
 
  Mike Harris
 
 
 I've always been disappointed with the quality of the OD 
 1:25k. These 
 are now all digitally stored yet the printed versions look 
 like they've 
 been drawn with swan quills.
 
 I've never understood why they used thicker linestyles to represent 
 paths than the 1:50k's . It just blocks out detail underneath it.
 
 
 Many a time I have descended from the fells using OS 1:25k 
 and compass only to find the bearing was wrong because the 
 footpath on the OS map has been poorly drawn. And this 
 situation is unlikely to change because the OS has no 
 surveying capacity to update this aspect of their mapping and 
 it's not something that can always be reliably adjusted from 
 aerial photography.
 
 You will generally find that the older 1:25k maps are better 
 than current day ones. Although the old maps don't have 
 public rights of way they do show many of the footpaths that 
 later became public rights of way. On the old maps they are 
 drawn more finely so its much easier to see where they were 
 originally surveyed [1]. May help in some cases work out 
 where a path goes when its not clear on the ground although 
 the best way to address that issue is by asking the 
 landowner. They normally now precisely and are probably a 
 better source of info than the local authority. 
 
 Having said that there are still paths on the old maps that 
 appear to be drawn on a boundary rather than to one side of it.
 
 [1] for an example see
 http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/images/a/a9/Portland_snip001.png
  (bottom half of image)
 
 Cheers
 
 Andy
 
 
 
 
 


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Re: [OSM-talk] Flickr Now Supports OSM Tags

Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason wrote:

 Do you have a bugtracker or some list of issues you're working towards
 before you can release it? I couldn't find anything.

I've just committed a headline list of issues - TODO.txt in the usual  
place.

cheers
Richard
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Re: [OSM-talk] Clarifying and representing road markings at junctions

2009-09-30 Thread Blaž Lorger

On Tuesday 29 September 2009 21:59:10 Matt Williams wrote:
 I've been noticing recently a problem we're going to/already have in
 our data when it comes to routing directions particularly. It concerns
 how to define continuations of roads at junctions and/or the road
 markings that delineate that. This problem manifests itself in many
 ways but for a first example, look at the attached image (road.png).
 
 On the left you will see the physical plan of a road junction near
 where I live. The way that it would be represented in the OSM data
 model is shown on the right. In this case, it would be sensible to
 make a way out of the segments 'a' and 'b' (yeah, I know we don't have
 segments any more, it's just an explanation tool), call it, e.g.
 'Curve Road' and make a second way out of segment 'c' and call it
 'Small Road'. At this stage, the date representation is sound and
 routing application would have no problem knowing how to parse it.
 However, there are two (increasingly common) ways in which this model
 will be forced to be broken:

I don't see where problem lies.

Is it that routing software will not be able to choose right route?
You never stated it clearly, but if I understand correctly road from segment a 
to b has right of way over segment c. So all you need is a way to indicate 
this. There are some proposals that could solve this (stop signs, yield, right 
of way).
If there are turn restrictions you can map those using turn restriction 
relation.
But if there is no explicit right of way and no turn restrictions it really 
should not matter how road markings are painted on the road. Routing software 
should be able to pick the right route based on other criteria (road 
classification, speed limits, traffic calming, ...).
Of course if roads b and c lead to completely different destinations (they 
don't join for several kilometers) it should be really easy to pick right way 
for specific destination.

The other problem could be that routing software will not be able to properly 
guide you through the junction.
If you take care that geometry of junction is represented correctly routing 
software will be able to guide you through the junction correctly. At least 
graphical representation should be correct.
Question is, will (voice) instructions be correct? I guess that in such 
situation clever navigation software would avoid using instruction 'go 
straight', but would rather use instructions 'keep left' or 'keep right'.

 Blaz

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Re: [OSM-talk] Clarifying and representing road markings at junctions

2009/9/30 Blaž Lorger blaz.lor...@triera.net:
I don't see where problem lies.

Is it that routing software will not be able to choose right route?
You never stated it clearly, but if I understand correctly road from segment a
to b has right of way over segment c. So all you need is a way to indicate
this. There are some proposals that could solve this (stop signs, yield, right
of way).
If there are turn restrictions you can map those using turn restriction
relation.
But if there is no explicit right of way and no turn restrictions it really
should not matter how road markings are painted on the road. Routing software
should be able to pick the right route based on other criteria (road
classification, speed limits, traffic calming, ...).

obviously you will find those road markings in situations, where there
are some kind of restrictions or explicit right of way. The thing is
less to _find_ the best way, but to give apropriate indications
(follow the street to the right or something similar, at least not
simply: turn right.

see this for explanations:

http://www.atzl.eu/stickerei/images/stories/stickerei/f03.jpg
http://www.phipsl.de/fall1.jpg

http://cdn.fotocommunity.com/photos/10510230.jpgimgrefurl=http://www.fotocommunity.de/pc/pc/display/10510230usg=__A3IpXoI79f0MoS-wOtdSQLUJz3E=h=1000w=659sz=225hl=destart=12um=1tbnid=gU2vwxzupwOUYM:tbnh=149tbnw=98prev=/images%3Fq%3Dabknickende%2Bvorfahrt%26hl%3Dde%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26rls%3Dcom.ubuntu:de:unofficial%26sa%3DN%26um%3D1

cheers,
Martin

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Re: [OSM-talk] Clarifying and representing road markings at junctions

2009-09-30 Thread Blaž Lorger

On Wednesday 30 September 2009 21:00:12 Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
 2009/9/30 Blaž Lorger blaz.lor...@triera.net:
  I don't see where problem lies.
 
  Is it that routing software will not be able to choose right route?
  You never stated it clearly, but if I understand correctly road from
  segment a to b has right of way over segment c. So all you need is a way
  to indicate this. There are some proposals that could solve this (stop
  signs, yield, right of way).
  If there are turn restrictions you can map those using turn restriction
  relation.
  But if there is no explicit right of way and no turn restrictions it
  really should not matter how road markings are painted on the road.
  Routing software should be able to pick the right route based on other
  criteria (road classification, speed limits, traffic calming, ...).
 
 obviously you will find those road markings in situations, where there
 are some kind of restrictions or explicit right of way. The thing is
 less to _find_ the best way, but to give apropriate indications
 (follow the street to the right or something similar, at least not
 simply: turn right.
 
 see this for explanations:
 
 http://www.atzl.eu/stickerei/images/stories/stickerei/f03.jpg
 http://www.phipsl.de/fall1.jpg
 
 http://cdn.fotocommunity.com/photos/10510230.jpgimgrefurl=http://www.fotoc
 ommunity.de/pc/pc/display/10510230usg=__A3IpXoI79f0MoS-wOtdSQLUJz3E=h=100
 0w=659sz=225hl=destart=12um=1tbnid=gU2vwxzupwOUYM:tbnh=149tbnw=98p
 rev=/images%3Fq%3Dabknickende%2Bvorfahrt%26hl%3Dde%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26r
 ls%3Dcom.ubuntu:de:unofficial%26sa%3DN%26um%3D1

I was not able to open last one, but first two are cases where road with right 
of way is not the one going straight. By properly marking which way has right 
of way and making sure that junction geometry is correct, good navigation 
software should be able to produce sensible turn instructions without need for 
additional data.

 Blaz

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Re: [OSM-talk] Clarifying and representing road markings at junctions

2009-09-30 Thread Roy Wallace

On Wed, Sep 30, 2009 at 7:35 PM, David Earl da...@frankieandshadow.com wrote:
 On 30/09/2009 10:20, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:

 you could model it like this (see attached, colours are just
 indicating the ways, not highway-classes)

 Yes, that's also what I typically do, e.g.
 http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=52.596517lon=0.376144zoom=18layers=B000FTF

Eek. Nice hack, but dodgy...

1) What if the road name changes *at* the junction, not just after the junction?

2) That hack just seems to change two things:

a) it changes the *angle* between the intersecting ways at the
junction. Is there any reason to want to do this? What exact problem
does it solve?

b) it makes a single *way* continue through the intersection. Does
this actually infer that there is no giveway instruction? If so, is
this documented anywhere? (I'm sure I could find examples where this
is not the case) If not, then the hack *doesn't* explicitly show that
the curved road continues through the intersection without
interruption.

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Re: [OSM-talk] Flickr Now Supports OSM Tags


Elizabeth Dodd wrote:
 For starters if the maintainers of JOSM Potlatch and Merkaartor encouraged 
 the use of yes/no it would be a way forward.

Potlatch does indeed have 'yes' (rather than 'true' or '1') in its presets
and autocomplete.

cheers
Richard
-- 
View this message in context: 
http://www.nabble.com/Flickr-Now-Supports-OSM-Tags-tp2565p25689752.html
Sent from the OpenStreetMap - General mailing list archive at Nabble.com.


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Re: [OSM-talk] Tiger data and county lines

2009-09-30 Thread Russ Nelson

Mike N. writes:
  JOSM -
How to select a way underneath another way?  Usually admin
  boundaries are selected when trying to select the way.  When there
  are 2 duplicate ways and nodes under an admin boundary, this is
  very time consuming.

You're right, it's hard to select two ways when they overlap
completely.  I find it easiest to add a new node by clicking on a +
and moving it over just a bit.  That separates out the nodes.  Then I
delete the duplicate way, and delete the new node I just created, so
the database gets nothing added to it and the duplicate way deleted.

-- 
--my blog is athttp://blog.russnelson.com
Crynwr supports open source software
521 Pleasant Valley Rd. | +1 315-323-1241
Potsdam, NY 13676-3213  | Sheepdog   

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Re: [OSM-talk] Tiger data and county lines

2009-09-30 Thread Dodi

 -Original Message-
 From: talk-boun...@openstreetmap.org [mailto:talk-
 boun...@openstreetmap.org] On Behalf Of Russ Nelson
 Sent: Thursday, October 01, 2009 1:03 AM
 To: Mike N.
 Cc: talk@openstreetmap.org
 Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Tiger data and county lines

 Mike N. writes:
   JOSM -
 How to select a way underneath another way?  Usually admin
   boundaries are selected when trying to select the way.  When there
   are 2 duplicate ways and nodes under an admin boundary, this is
   very time consuming.

 You're right, it's hard to select two ways when they overlap
 completely.  I find it easiest to add a new node by clicking on a +
 and moving it over just a bit.  That separates out the nodes.  Then I
 delete the duplicate way, and delete the new node I just created, so
 the database gets nothing added to it and the duplicate way deleted.

In JOSM just press middle mouse button, hold down CTRL key, then select
way(s) from popup menu.

Dodi

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Re: [OSM-talk] Flickr Now Supports OSM Tags

2009-09-30 Thread Russ Nelson

SteveC writes:

   Yeah, OK Dave, we've got the message, you don't free-format tags.
   Unfortunately you're going to have to get used to it, because it
   is the basis of the OPENstreetmap and, in my opinion, one of the
   reasons it is as successful as it is.
  
  +1

-1.  Don't confuse anarchy with chaos.  SteveC is our leader (and
should behave as such by Giving Advice), but he's only our leader so
far as he gives Good Advice.

-- 
--my blog is athttp://blog.russnelson.com
Crynwr supports open source software
521 Pleasant Valley Rd. | +1 315-323-1241
Potsdam, NY 13676-3213  | Sheepdog   

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Re: [OSM-talk] Flickr Now Supports OSM Tags

Richard Fairhurst wrote:
 Elizabeth Dodd wrote:
   
 For starters if the maintainers of JOSM Potlatch and Merkaartor encouraged 
 the use of yes/no it would be a way forward.
 

 Potlatch does indeed have 'yes' (rather than 'true' or '1') in its presets
 and autocomplete.

 cheers
 Richard
   
Will v2.0 disallow user input altogether  be completely based on 'click 
to select' presets?

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Re: [OSM-talk] Flickr Now Supports OSM Tags

Russ Nelson wrote:
 SteveC writes:

Yeah, OK Dave, we've got the message, you don't free-format tags.
Unfortunately you're going to have to get used to it, because it
is the basis of the OPENstreetmap and, in my opinion, one of the
reasons it is as successful as it is.
   
   +1

 -1.  Don't confuse anarchy with chaos.  SteveC is our leader (and
 should behave as such by Giving Advice), but he's only our leader so
 far as he gives Good Advice.

   
A leader in an anarchic state? How does that work? ;-)

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Re: [OSM-talk] Flickr Now Supports OSM Tags

2009-09-30 Thread Iván Sánchez Ortega

El Jueves, 1 de Octubre de 2009, Dave F. escribió:
  -1.  Don't confuse anarchy with chaos.  SteveC is our leader (and
  should behave as such by Giving Advice), but he's only our leader so
  far as he gives Good Advice.

 A leader in an anarchic state? How does that work? ;-)

With cake. And kittens.

-- 
--
Iván Sánchez Ortega i...@sanchezortega.es

There are two ways of constructing a software design; one way is to make it 
so simple that there are obviously no deficiencies, and the other way is to 
make it so complicated that there are no obvious deficiencies. The first 
method is far more difficult.
 - C. A. R. Hoare


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Re: [OSM-talk] Flickr Now Supports OSM Tags

Frederik Ramm wrote:
 Hi,

 Dave F. wrote:
 If, by users, you mean the likes of Flickr, 

 I do. They have resources to bring our data into the shape they want 
 it in. I'm not saying let's make it extra difficult for them 
I think that having *unnecessary* data, such as the tag values we've 
been discussing does make it extra difficult.
 - but I don't see that we should change anything just because someone 
 might like our data better that way.

 The vast, vast majority of manufacturers spend a lot of time trying 
 to make their products simple to use so they sell more units.

 So what 
I was trying to use that as an example of the principle, which I think 
you knew.
 - we're not a manufacturer, and we're not selling anything. 
There's a blog for OSM (http://www.opengeodata.org/page/2/) that has a 
video where Peter Millar talks about persuading organisations to take 
up OSM. He's therefore selling the idea of OSM.

He mentions that they're hesitant to adopt OSM because they're wary of 
stuff that's free. (Free cost= Not Good).
I'm concerned that once they get over that hurdle they might come to the 
conclusion that Extra Difficult=Not Good.
 We don't have paid staff. We are a bunch of people making a map; we're 
 not offering a service to anybody.
Irrelevant of the business model, there's still a product that needs to 
be 'sold'.

Peter mentions professionals will take it when they realise it's 
*better* than the competition.
I would like to take it one stage further  have the product be *as good 
as possible*. Hence my concerns as noted in the thread.

Cheers
Dave F.

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Re: [OSM-talk] Breach of Copyright?

Russ Nelson wrote:
 Dave F. writes:
   I look for /indications /of rights of way on my OS map. Initially this 
   is the only evidence I have.
   If I see it's not indicated in OSM I go  walk it.
   I'm pretty certain I'm not the only one who does this.
   
   Is this a breach of copyright?

 Not in the US.  Not in any way, not at all.  Copyright in the US
 protects creative expression, not information.  If something is a
 representation of a fact, the creative elements of that representation
 are copyrightable.  The fact is not copyrightable.  You are using the
 OSM maps in a manner which is non-infringing under US law.

 Further, under US law, if there is only one way to express something,
 you cannot claim a copyright on it, even if you can show that you
 exercised creativity in creating it.

 Now, you *can* claim a copyright on a collection of facts, but the
 copyright applies to the collection, not the individual facts.  Your
 creativity was applied to the choice of which facts to include in the
 collection.

 Obviously you are in the UK making reference to a work under UK
 copyright, so none of this applies to you.  I merely put this here so
 that people in the US understand that they CAN do what you are doing.

   
Oh to live in in the land of the free. :-)

Thanks for your reply.
Dave F.

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Re: [OSM-talk] Flickr Now Supports OSM Tags

2009-09-30 Thread SteveC


On 30 Sep 2009, at 16:14, Russ Nelson wrote:

 SteveC writes:

 Yeah, OK Dave, we've got the message, you don't free-format tags.
 Unfortunately you're going to have to get used to it, because it
 is the basis of the OPENstreetmap and, in my opinion, one of the
 reasons it is as successful as it is.

 +1

 -1.  Don't confuse anarchy with chaos.  SteveC is our leader (and
 should behave as such by Giving Advice), but he's only our leader so
 far as he gives Good Advice.

It turns out I'm still allowed my opinions, and y'know given that I  
designed and implemented freeform tags... I think I'm allowed to  
promote them.

Yours c.

Steve


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Re: [OSM-talk] Flickr Now Supports OSM Tags

SteveC wrote:
 On 30 Sep 2009, at 16:14, Russ Nelson wrote:

   
 SteveC writes:

 
 Yeah, OK Dave, we've got the message, you don't free-format tags.
 Unfortunately you're going to have to get used to it, because it
 is the basis of the OPENstreetmap and, in my opinion, one of the
 reasons it is as successful as it is.
 
 +1
   
 -1.  Don't confuse anarchy with chaos.  SteveC is our leader (and
 should behave as such by Giving Advice), but he's only our leader so
 far as he gives Good Advice.
 

 It turns out I'm still allowed my opinions, and y'know given that I  
 designed and implemented freeform tags... I think I'm allowed to  
 promote them.
   
Free form Tags - Good, duplicate/irrelevant data - Bad.

Ta
Dave F.



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Re: [OSM-talk] Breach of Copyright?

2009/10/1 Russ Nelson nel...@crynwr.com:
 Obviously you are in the UK making reference to a work under UK
 copyright, so none of this applies to you.  I merely put this here so
 that people in the US understand that they CAN do what you are doing.

even when the servers are in the UK?

Martin

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[OSM-talk] How do I connect to openstreetmap via wms so my web application can use openstreetmap as my base layer?

2009-09-30 Thread John Mitchell

Hi,

How do I connect to openstreetmap via wms so my web application can use
openstreetmap as my base layer.

Thanks,

-- 
John J. Mitchell
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Re: [OSM-talk] nginx and mod_tile