Re: [OSM-talk] SteveC should decide

[Frederik Ramm]

Hi,

Russ Nelson wrote:
> This is just wrong.  If SteveC says that "mountain=green" means that
> first there is a mountain, and that "mountain=blue" means there is no
> mountain, then damnit, we should do it that way.

Are you mad?

Bye
Frederik

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Flickr Now Supports OSM Tags

[Frederik Ramm]

Hi,

Eugene Alvin Villar wrote:
> What's so hard about standardizing on the boolean values given 
> appropriate changes to editor presets, good wiki documentation, and a 
> deprecation period for other boolean values?

It's a kind of slippery slope situation. There is fear that once it has 
been proven that standardisation works for true/false values, there will 
be demands to standardise everything else as well.

This would be positive for the users of our data in the short term 
because it means they would not have to interpret the data; however it 
would remove dynamism from the project and require mappers who want to 
invent something new to apply to the standardisation committee first, 
and we feel that this would be a severe detriment to further 
participation on the mapper side. OSM flourishes partly because mappers 
feel that they can help shape the project, and contribute what they 
think is important, rather than just being mechanical turks (without the 
payment).

In the long term, standardisation would kill the project, and thus not 
be desirable even for our users. - Coming from the outside and not 
having the knowledge about OSM that we have, users can be forgiven to 
demand things that would ultimately destroy OSM, but it is our duty to 
educate them and to explain to them that they can either take OSM as it 
is, with some interpretation required, or they can demand that OSM 
change but that would, in the long run, probably mean no OSM at all.

I run a small company that, among other things, sells standardised 
derivates of OSM data. I spend a lot of time trying to stay ahead of the 
game, analyse what tags people use and for what, and try and convert 
these into consistent and reliable values. If OSM changes from 
"landuse=forest" to "russ_nelson_sees=trees" because that's what mappers 
what to use, then I can adapt and my customers don't have to, and 
neither does the OSM community have to twist and turn just because some 
users want consistent tagging.

In my eyes, this is the way to deal with standardisation - do not force 
it upon the mappers, but instead create a "filter layer". In my case 
this is a commercial operation, but I have been suggesting for ages that 
instead of writing bots to streamline OSM data, why don't people write 
generic filters/standardising engines that take the "chaotic" OSM data 
as of today and produce well-ordered standardised output for people "out 
there" who cannot be bothered to keep up with OSM's tagging anarchy? It 
would not be too hard.

And I'm not saying this because of my business (until now, keeping up 
with changes and doing the standardisation takes more work than I get 
paid for it so I would benefit from OSM itself being standardised); I 
truly believe that the way things work in OSM, with "standards" being 
un-enforceable and people constantly deviating from them (even if there 
is a certain base consensus on many things) is the only way it *can* 
work without degrading into some kind of Google Map Maker that does not 
look for project members, but for worker ants.

Bye
Frederik

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Flickr Now Supports OSM Tags

[Frankie Roberto]

When I say 'should', I mean 'should' in the sense of 'should if they
want to make the widest use of data possible'. Obviously, there's a
trade off between the amount of time/effort it takes to support more
tags, and the extra data this gives you. In the case of yes/no vs
true/false vs 1/0, I'm not sure how widespread the second two
variations are (anecdotally, I rarely see them when editing the map),
but on the other hand it's relatively trivial to add support for them.
(although there's a third factor in play here, which is the amount of
time and effort it takes to find out about the tag variations, and
their various distributions, which is where we failed Aaron).

The old maxim of "be conservative in what you produce, be liberal in
what you accept" comes to mind here. And whilst there has always been
an argument that being conservative in what you accept encourages (or
even forces) people to be conservative in what they produce, this
rarely wins out - mainly because consumers/renderers have more of an
obligation to their users (the consumers) than to producers. We can
see how this has played out in the browser wars, where all browsers
now accept tag soup, and the focus in now on standardising the
interpretation of the soup (HTML5) rather than enforcing a strict
adherance to the standards (XHTML4).

Of course, for OSM the maxim should probably be "be liberal in what
you accept, be liberal in what you produce, but with a community
consensus where possible".

And so far, this seems to more or less work, right? We've clearly got
a way to go in communicating the consensus, and in giving guidelines
to data-users, as this thread shows, but that's just a matter of
incremental improvements.

Frankie

PS I'm off to go mapping with oneway=ja and building=kittens... ;-)


On 30/09/2009, Dave F.  wrote:
> Frederik Ramm wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> Dave F. wrote:
> Who, within OSM & in their right sense of mind, would object to
> being forced to use just Yes/No. I mean it's just an on/off switch!
>>
 Says who?
>>
>>> Err... I do.
>>> Could you expand on why you might think otherwise?
>>
>> Which tag were you talking about that you thought was simply a yes/no
>> option?
>>
>>
> Hi
> I wasn't talking about a specific tag just their values. When I said
> "Who would object to being forced to use just Yes/No" I meant in
> comparison with True/False, 1/0; /not /totally exclusive to Y/N.
> For the example of building=, I am aware that mappers may also define
> their own values, which I agree with.
>
> I disagree with Frankie that "...renderers should probably accept all
> three forms though".
> I don't understand why others should have to spend time sorting out
> OSM's vagaries purely because we can't decide.
>
> Cheers
> Dave F.
>
>
>
> ___
> talk mailing list
> talk@openstreetmap.org
> http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>


-- 
Frankie Roberto
Experience Designer, Rattle
0114 2706977
http://www.rattlecentral.com

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Flickr Now Supports OSM Tags

[John Smith]

2009/10/1 Frederik Ramm :

> It's a kind of slippery slope situation. There is fear that once it has
> been proven that standardisation works for true/false values, there will
> be demands to standardise everything else as well.

I think you are exagurating things a little, however a little
standarisation would go a long way, although you have a vested
interest in keeping the status quo because you've built a commercial
model around it.

> This would be positive for the users of our data in the short term
> because it means they would not have to interpret the data; however it
> would remove dynamism from the project and require mappers who want to
> invent something new to apply to the standardisation committee first,

What exactly would be wrong with doing that exactly?

> and we feel that this would be a severe detriment to further
> participation on the mapper side. OSM flourishes partly because mappers
> feel that they can help shape the project, and contribute what they
> think is important, rather than just being mechanical turks (without the
> payment).

I think you are over stating the importance of people feeling they can
contribute by using any tags they please, I keep coming back to the
example of using some random names to describe road types, this
wouldn't do anyone any good, and there is a very good reason there is
a limited number of highway tags for highway types.

> In the long term, standardisation would kill the project, and thus not

I disagree, it hasn't killed the linux project, and in fact
standardisation helps things to flourish more often than not because
things can work together harmouniously, imagine what web browsers
would be like without standards, it would be an even bigger, uglier
mess than we have today.

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Flickr Now Supports OSM Tags

[Dave Stubbs]

On Thu, Oct 1, 2009 at 12:58 AM, Dave F.  wrote:
> Richard Fairhurst wrote:
>> Elizabeth Dodd wrote:
>>
>>> For starters if the maintainers of JOSM Potlatch and Merkaartor encouraged
>>> the use of yes/no it would be a way forward.
>>>
>>
>> Potlatch does indeed have 'yes' (rather than 'true' or '1') in its presets
>> and autocomplete.
>>
>> cheers
>> Richard
>>
> Will v2.0 disallow user input altogether & be completely based on 'click
> to select' presets?
>


Not a chance in hell.

Click "Advanced" at the bottom of the tags section. Oh yes, raw tag
entry FTW! for when you damn well know the editor is wrong.
Plus the "presets" (they're not really presets now, but property
editors) are completely configurable[1], and (once I put the pref box
in) swappable at run time.
Oh, and the oneway preset i currently have happily recognises
1=true=yes/0=false=no/reverse=-1. It's only when you set it that it
will standardise to yes/no/-1.

Dave

[1] 
http://trac.openstreetmap.org/browser/applications/editors/potlatch2/resources/map_features.xml

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Google Wants to Map Indoors, Too

[John Smith]

2009/10/1 Alice Kaerast :
>
> Hang on, it's October 1st not April 1st!  In all seriousness though they
> won't be giving you their floorplans because it's a terrorist risk
> rather than the fact they're giving Google exclusive access.

The slashdot subject was misleading, Google isn't getting them
actually, some third party is, Micello, maybe they're running their
own WMS server to supplement google imagery?

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Protection time of ODbL

[Jukka Rahkonen]

Hi,

Was the answer to my question that nobody knows how long ODbL is protecting the
data and it is impossible to tell it exactly?

-Jukka Rahkonen-


___
legal-talk mailing list
legal-t...@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk

Re: [OSM-talk] nginx and mod_tile

[Stefan de Konink]

NL is running on Cherokee, we have a 404 script that communicates with  
renderd. I guess this can be used by lighttpd and nginx too.

Stefan

Op 1 okt 2009 om 03:58 heeft John Smith   
het volgende geschreven:\

> 2009/10/1 Kenneth Gonsalves :
>> hi,
>>
>> I have been serving osm using apache and mod_tile. Now I have  
>> shifted to nginx
>> as it is much faster and uses less memory - any idea how to serve  
>> osm using
>> nginx?
>
> I'd love to know too, I use lighttpd normally, but for the tile server
> I still have to use apache because I haven't been able to come up with
> a better solution unless I wanted to pre-render the world.
>
> ___
> talk mailing list
> talk@openstreetmap.org
> http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Flickr Now Supports OSM Tags

[Dave Stubbs]

On Thu, Oct 1, 2009 at 6:28 AM, Eugene Alvin Villar  wrote:
>
>
> On Thu, Oct 1, 2009 at 12:02 PM, Apollinaris Schoell 
> wrote:
>>
>> On 30 Sep 2009, at 20:46 , Russ Nelson wrote:
>> > No, he is a leader because we respect him.  THAT is how leaders in
>> > an anarchic state arise.
>> >
>>
>> yes he is a leader and as such deserves respect. he should lead some
>> useful and intelligent projects and don't loose a word about this
>> childish 1/0/yes/no/true/false discussions.
>> a consumer of the data has to do a bit more work but this is a small
>> fee for free access to an amazing database.
>>
>
> The discussion is only childish if the tone of the discussion is childish.
> But if people discuss this issue in a good manner, then it isn't childish.
>
> If we can remove that small fee, why not do it?
>
> What's so hard about standardizing on the boolean values given appropriate
> changes to editor presets, good wiki documentation, and a deprecation period
> for other boolean values?


what's so hard?
The hard part is figuring out what the hell any of this actually has
to do with the thread topic.
Amazingly tag-standardisation is not even /relevant/ to the original
problem pointed out.
Oh well... wouldn't be the internet if someone wasn't wrong on it.

Dave

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] nginx and mod_tile

[John Smith]

2009/10/1 Stefan de Konink :
> NL is running on Cherokee, we have a 404 script that communicates with
> renderd. I guess this can be used by lighttpd and nginx too.

URL?

I tried to code something similar like this in php before but didn't
get very far at the time, can your script be run as a fastcgi script?
If it can this would have similar performance as mod_tile...

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Breach of Copyright?

[Nick Whitelegg]

And as I said before I am 99.9% certain that this is not breach of 
copyright in the UK either. As I said before this is identical to the case 
where someone plans a route using an atlas then uploads their traces to 
OSM, using their own observations to tag the roads, not the atlas.

(Apologies for top posting, it's my mail client)

Nick




"Dave F."  
Sent by: talk-boun...@openstreetmap.org
01/10/2009 01:45

To
Russ Nelson 
cc
OSM Talk 
Subject
Re: [OSM-talk] Breach of Copyright?






Russ Nelson wrote:
> Dave F. writes:
>  > I look for /indications /of rights of way on my OS map. Initially 
this 
>  > is the only evidence I have.
>  > If I see it's not indicated in OSM I go & walk it.
>  > I'm pretty certain I'm not the only one who does this.
>  > 
>  > Is this a breach of copyright?
>
> Not in the US.  Not in any way, not at all.  Copyright in the US
> protects creative expression, not information.  If something is a
> representation of a fact, the creative elements of that representation
> are copyrightable.  The fact is not copyrightable.  You are using the
> OSM maps in a manner which is non-infringing under US law.
>
> Further, under US law, if there is only one way to express something,
> you cannot claim a copyright on it, even if you can show that you
> exercised creativity in creating it.
>
> Now, you *can* claim a copyright on a collection of facts, but the
> copyright applies to the collection, not the individual facts.  Your
> creativity was applied to the choice of which facts to include in the
> collection.
>
> Obviously you are in the UK making reference to a work under UK
> copyright, so none of this applies to you.  I merely put this here so
> that people in the US understand that they CAN do what you are doing.
>
> 
Oh to live in in the land of the free. :-)

Thanks for your reply.
Dave F.

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk



___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] SteveC should decide

[Valent Turkovic]

On Wed, 30 Sep 2009 23:14:00 -0400, Russ Nelson wrote:

> If we don't do that, then we'll get what we deserve: no leadership.

Yes please, this project needs an active leader. There is currently too 
much undecided topics.

As a reference please look how Fedora Project [1] is doing things.

There is a project leader (that I obviously think should be SteveC) and 
there is Fedora Board [2]

The board is composed of community elected members, and all members have 
a vote on who gets to be a Board member.

People who are running for elections put up a page on the wiki saying 
what they do for the project, and what is their "goal" to do when they 
become members of Board.

Board votes on all decisions and their decisions are final, but represent 
the consensus of most users.

Is there anything similar currently for OpenStreetMap project?

[1] http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/
[2] http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Board

-- 
pratite me na twitteru - www.twitter.com/valentt
http://kernelreloaded.blog385.com/
linux, blog, anime, spirituality, windsurf, wireless
registered as user #367004 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org.
ICQ: 2125241, Skype: valent.turkovic


___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] SteveC should decide

[Valent Turkovic]

On Thu, 01 Oct 2009 09:03:38 +0200, Frederik Ramm wrote:

> Are you mad?
> 
> Bye
> Frederik
 
You are taking this out of context, and you obviously missed the point.



-- 
pratite me na twitteru - www.twitter.com/valentt
http://kernelreloaded.blog385.com/
linux, blog, anime, spirituality, windsurf, wireless
registered as user #367004 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org.
ICQ: 2125241, Skype: valent.turkovic


___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] nginx and mod_tile

[Stefan de Konink]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA512

John Smith schreef:
> 2009/10/1 Stefan de Konink :
>> NL is running on Cherokee, we have a 404 script that communicates with
>> renderd. I guess this can be used by lighttpd and nginx too.
> 
> URL?
> 
> I tried to code something similar like this in php before but didn't
> get very far at the time, can your script be run as a fastcgi script?
> If it can this would have similar performance as mod_tile...

I think it was on this list before;

vserver!20!document_root = /var/www/tile.openstreetmap.nl/htdocs
vserver!20!error_handler = error_redir
vserver!20!error_handler!404!show = 0
vserver!20!error_handler!404!url = /live/render.py

This basically creates an invisible redirection if a tile doesn't exist.
I really doesn't matter if it is visible. The script should get the tile
one way or the other.

This is our active script for that:
http://mirror.openstreetmap.nl/sources/render.py


And we are currently working on a modified version of renderd that
allows other projections, helping out in testing, debugging and fixing
is appreciated :)

http://git.openstreetmap.nl/index.cgi/renderd.git/


Stefan

-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: GnuPG v2.0.11 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org

iEYEAREKAAYFAkrEd40ACgkQYH1+F2Rqwn2ycgCggtoNLfCWa9BdEiNnEHJi/S9e
VkoAnj7RvijqLrVoatYJtZ/rb0MUZ6dP
=6bU7
-END PGP SIGNATURE-

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] How do I connect to openstreetmap via wms so my web application can use openstreetmap as my base layer?

[John Mitchell]

Thanks,

For the below link I noticed that the demo outputs the tiles as an epsg of
900913 is it also possible to output as an epsg of 4326 since our data is as
4326, and if you can output as 4326 will it line up with our other data.
We found that with having google maps as the base layer that it did not line
up with our other data when they both outputted as 4326 but they lined up
when both were 900913.

John

On Thu, Oct 1, 2009 at 12:18 AM, Jukka Rahkonen
wrote:

> John Mitchell  gmail.com> writes:
>
> >
> > Hi,How do I connect to openstreetmap via wms so my web application can
> use
> openstreetmap as my base layer.Thanks,-- John J. Mitchell
>
> Hi,
>
> Try http://www.osm-wms.de/
>
> -Jukka Rahkonen-
>
>
> ___
> talk mailing list
> talk@openstreetmap.org
> http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>



-- 
John J. Mitchell
___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] SteveC should decide

[Frederik Ramm]

Hi,

Valent Turkovic wrote:
>> Are you mad?
>  
> You are taking this out of context, and you obviously missed the point.

Not at all. Russ has called for dictatorial leadership which the project 
should follow even if there were absolutely nonsensical decisions. I 
don't know how any context could reduce the sheer stupidity of:

"If SteveC says that "mountain=green" means that first there is a 
mountain, and that "mountain=blue" means there is no mountain, then 
damnit, we should do it that way."

If we have open issues in the community that we cannot find a good 
solution to, then the reason for this is not that we simply lack a good 
Führer who tells us what is right and what is wrong; it is because these 
issues are difficult and the community is perhaps divided about it. We 
do not need anybody to make a decision in these cases; that doesn't help 
at all.

I can't understand how some of you seem to be yearning for a power 
figure that absolves you from thinking for yourselves just to make 
things simpler. It seems that you would prefer a wrong decision over no 
decision at all - but why do we need decisions at all? If there are 
issues where the community cannot make up their mind, can you not just 
live with that and arrange your technology in a way to deal with that? 
Do you always have to take a hammer and hit everything until it is 
nicely uniform?

Bye
Frederik


___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] SteveC should decide

[Liz]

On Thu, 1 Oct 2009, Russ Nelson wrote:
> This is wrong.  There are times when any project needs leadership.
> It's unreasonable for us to expect that every open source project
> leader will be willing to subject himself to ad-hominem arguments.
> We need to stand up for our leaders, and when they're being abused, we
> need to defend them.  If we don't do that, then we'll get what we
> deserve: no leadership.
*+1*


___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] SteveC should decide

[Chris Jones]

Russ Nelson wrote:
> I'm tired of this silly true/false 1/0 yes/no up/down left/right
> in/out fore/aft port/starboard debate/debacle.  It's trivial, it's
> stupid, we could just as easily toss a coin as engage in any rational
> debate about how binary values should be expressed.
>
> This is just wrong.  If SteveC says that "mountain=green" means that
> first there is a mountain, and that "mountain=blue" means there is no
> mountain, then damnit, we should do it that way.
>   
Don't debate then!

Accept there's more than one true path to tagging enlightenment and get 
on with it!

Just build yourself a list of equivalent k=v pairs and use that when you 
pre-process to normalise data for your application.

--
Chris Jones, SUCS Admin
http://sucs.org

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Clarifying and representing road markings at junctions

[Richard Mann]

Picking up Ray's point that observing the back of the giveway sign is a
rather indirect way of saying "follow the road round to the right", the
simplest/clearest is probably a relation on the through route linking the
ways before/after the junction, saying "this is the priority route through
the junction". Maybe simply a type=priority relation, with no roles? I'd
probably use this as well as marking the giveways on the junction arms
(giveway=forward/backward on a node seems to express it succinctly; who
knows if it'll catch on).

But mebbe I should also file a Potlatch trac ticket that allows you to paste
a single tag/relation from memory. I don't need to be pasting a set of 20
relations on a way that already has 19 of them.

Richard
___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Clarifying and representing road markings at junctions

[David Earl]

On 30/09/2009 22:05, Roy Wallace wrote:
> On Wed, Sep 30, 2009 at 7:35 PM, David Earl  
> wrote:
>> On 30/09/2009 10:20, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
>>> you could model it like this (see attached, colours are just
>>> indicating the ways, not highway-classes)
>> Yes, that's also what I typically do, e.g.
>> http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=52.596517&lon=0.376144&zoom=18&layers=B000FTF
> 
> Eek. Nice hack, but dodgy...
> 
> 1) What if the road name changes *at* the junction, not just after the 
> junction?
> 
> 2) That hack just seems to change two things:
> 
> a) it changes the *angle* between the intersecting ways at the
> junction. Is there any reason to want to do this? What exact problem
> does it solve?

It's not a hack, it's a very reasonable representation of what's on the 
ground. The kerb line may be straight on one side but is usually curved 
opposite the junction, and many such junctions now have a build out 
which reinforces the curve around the corner, but even if it isn't the 
centre line curves around the corner, and often the give way lines as well.

It shows visually which the "main" road is at the junction and is a good 
model of the physical arrangement.

> b) it makes a single *way* continue through the intersection. 

err, no. If the road has the same name around the corner it can do. If 
the minor but straight on road has the same name it could be a 
continuous way, but I would normally break it at that point, not least 
so the name of the "minor" road is clear. But where ways break is of no 
significance - you have to break ways at all sorts of places because of 
changes in the environment like speed limits, starts of bridges etc.

> Does
> this actually infer that there is no giveway instruction? 

Not necessarily, though there nearly always is.

> If so, is
> this documented anywhere? (I'm sure I could find examples where this
> is not the case) If not, then the hack *doesn't* explicitly show that
> the curved road continues through the intersection without
> interruption.

I think anyone looking at it would understand the arrangement on the 
ground, and it does model the situation as I see it.

It is very unusual indeed in the UK anyway to find a case where priority 
is around the corner but there is no curvature at all in the way it goes 
around the corner. If there really is no curve whatsoever (and I can't 
think of an example off hand that I've mapped in 3 years of mapping, 
though I'm sure there are some), then I wouldn't try to model a curve. 
It's not a hack, it's what's actually there to a greater or lesser 
extent in most such circumstances.

David



___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] How do I connect to openstreetmap via wms so my web application can use openstreetmap as my base layer?

[Rahkonen Jukka]

Hi,
 
Somehow I feel that you are not interested in real WMS but you mainly
want tiles to be used as a background in some OpenLayers application.
In that case normal, uncached WMS in not what you want.  But if you want
to get on-the-fly rendering with selectable layers, different
projections and even user selectable styling by pointing your own SLD
document then WMS is a fine alternative for the fast but dull OSM tiles.
 
The link where WMS starts is
http://services.giub.uni-bonn.de/wms?Request=GetCapabilities .
There seems to be Geoserver behind the service and because it is listing
all the 3912 supported projections the document is quite long.  What is
worse it that some WMS clients cannot handle that long SRS list.  At
least OpenJUMP fails because of that.
 
-Jukka Rahkonen-
 
 
John Mitchell  wrote:
 
 Thanks,

For the below link I noticed that the demo outputs the tiles as an epsg
of 900913 is it also possible to output as an epsg of 4326 since our
data is as 4326, and if you can output as 4326 will it line up with our
other data.
We found that with having google maps as the base layer that it did not
line up with our other data when they both outputted as 4326 but they
lined up when both were 900913.

John



On Thu, Oct 1, 2009 at 12:18 AM, Jukka Rahkonen
 wrote:


John Mitchell  gmail.com> writes:

>
> Hi,How do I connect to openstreetmap via wms so my web
application can use
openstreetmap as my base layer.Thanks,-- John J.
Mitchell


Hi,

Try http://www.osm-wms.de/

-Jukka Rahkonen-



 

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] SteveC should decide

[Andy Allan]

On Thu, Oct 1, 2009 at 10:40 AM, Frederik Ramm  wrote:

> I can't understand how some of you seem to be yearning for a power
> figure that absolves you from thinking for yourselves just to make
> things simpler.

You answered your own question: that's exactly what people want - Deus
Ex Machina. That's what most people want in life - whether playing the
lottery, complaints of "why doesn't the government do X", "I'm not a
coder" and so on.

For all the people who can actually advance the solution, rather than
just discuss the problem, I think there's an obligation to both
actually get on with things, and encourage people to switch from
passive (however noisy they are at not solving anything) to active,
constructive participation. But that means only fighting battles you
can win, and I decided about 6 months ago to ignore (or at least not
rise to) the eternally pointless tagging debate.

Notice, if you will, my contributions to the wiki have skyrocketed
since I gave up debating on what to do with the wikifiddlers and just
started fixing the problem instead.

Cheers,
Andy

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] nginx and mod_tile

[John Smith]

2009/10/1 Stefan de Konink :
> I think it was on this list before;

May have been before I joined...

> vserver!20!document_root = /var/www/tile.openstreetmap.nl/htdocs
> vserver!20!error_handler = error_redir
> vserver!20!error_handler!404!show = 0
> vserver!20!error_handler!404!url = /live/render.py

lighttpd is a little simpler...

server.error-handler-404  = "/render.py"

> http://mirror.openstreetmap.nl/sources/render.py

At first glance the only thing I noticed was a lack of cache headers
to prevent browsers from caching.

> And we are currently working on a modified version of renderd that
> allows other projections, helping out in testing, debugging and fixing
> is appreciated :)

Any thoughts on dynamic mapnik style sheets?

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Clarifying and representing road markings at junctions

[Roy Wallace]

On Thu, Oct 1, 2009 at 8:05 PM, David Earl  wrote:
>
> It shows visually which the "main" road is at the junction and is a good
> model of the physical arrangement.

IMHO it does not *explicitly* show the "continuations of roads at the
junction". And even if you do think it works "visually", that is not
sufficient - there are many uses for OSM data.

>> b) it makes a single *way* continue through the intersection.
>
> err, no. If the road has the same name around the corner it can do. If the
> minor but straight on road has the same name it could be a continuous way,
> but I would normally break it at that point, not least so the name of the
> "minor" road is clear. But where ways break is of no significance - you have
> to break ways at all sorts of places because of changes in the environment
> like speed limits, starts of bridges etc.

Ah, so are you saying that, in Martin's attached image, the red way
and the yellow way should/could meet at the junction? If so, then IMHO
it is even *less* clear that, e.g. traveling from the red to the grey
way is a left turn, whereas traveling from the red way to the yellow
way is uninterrupted.

> I think anyone looking at it would understand the arrangement on the ground,
> and it does model the situation as I see it.

Don't be fooled - people are not the only ones that "look" at OSM data.

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Flickr Now Supports OSM Tags

[Dave F.]

Apollinaris Schoell wrote:
>
> On 30 Sep 2009, at 20:46 , Russ Nelson wrote:
>
>> Dave F. writes:
>>> Russ Nelson wrote:
 -1.  Don't confuse anarchy with chaos.  SteveC is our leader (and
 should behave as such by Giving Advice), but he's only our leader so
 far as he gives Good Advice.


>>> A leader in an anarchic state? How does that work? ;-)
>>
>> Exactly as I just described, although perhaps more clearly than that.
>> SteveC has no power to force me to use 1 for true or -1 for false, or
>> 0 for false.  And yet if SteveC said "folks, let's use yes and no as
>> binary values, and not 1, 0, or -1." most people would do as he says.
>> Not because he is forcing them, or is going to take all his marbles
>> and go home, or is going to dismiss *...@cloudmade, or will say bad
>> words to people.
>>
>
> If he says only few people will even notice. if josm/potlatch use them 
> as presets 90% will follow
>
>> No, he is a leader because we respect him.  THAT is how leaders in
>> an anarchic state arise.
>>
>
> yes he is a leader and as such deserves respect. he should lead some 
> useful and intelligent projects and don't loose a word about this 
> childish 1/0/yes/no/true/false discussions.
> a consumer of the data has to do a bit more work but this is a small 
> fee for free access to an amazing database.
>
I find it disappointing you think this discussion childish. As Eugene 
pointed out it's only the tone of the people that post that would make 
it so not the subject matter.

I'm finding this thread a good learning experience about OSM & it's 
mappers. Not always a positive one, I have to admit, but I can't have 
everything.

If the consumers had to do less work then OSM would get *more* 
consumers. Which is half the point of the exercise, isn't it?
To pass on an easily solved problem like this for others to sort out is, 
as I said before IMO - selfish.

The expression "take responsibility for your own actions" doesn't appear 
to carry much weight around here.

Cheers
Dave F.


Cheers
Dave F.


___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Flickr Now Supports OSM Tags

[Lennard]

Aaron Straup Cope wrote:

> 2) It's building=yes because that's what OSM feature list says:
> 
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:building%3Dyes

The relevant remark on that page is:

"Mappers may also define their own values. Renderers are free to support 
these or just treat them as synonyms for building=yes."



-- 
Lennard

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Flickr Now Supports OSM Tags

[Frederik Ramm]

Hi,

Dave F. wrote:
> If the consumers had to do less work then OSM would get *more* 
> consumers. Which is half the point of the exercise, isn't it?

Stop thinking in these terms, they don't work for OSM. The data OSM has 
to offer has a reasonable value; depending on who the "customer" is, 
using OSM data can save them tens of thousands of whatever currency unit 
you like. There's a strong motivation - these users will come to OSM 
even if OSM isn't presented to them on a silver platter.

On the other side we have the mappers who do not save, or earn, any 
money from OSM, and the programmers and server admins and everyone who 
uses their spare time to create and run OSM.

If you continue talking about OSM as a product and users as customers, 
then you'll soon arrive at "the customer is always right" and we 
contributors will then be mere "service providers".

But things are just the other way round in OSM. The mapper is always 
right, and whether or not the user wants to use what the mapper 
provides, that's his choice. The user can always go for Teleatlas 
instead if he doesn't like what he sees.

Bye
Frederik


___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Flickr Now Supports OSM Tags

[Dave F.]

SteveC wrote:
>
> On 30 Sep 2009, at 17:54, Dave F. wrote:
>
>> SteveC wrote:
>>> On 30 Sep 2009, at 16:14, Russ Nelson wrote:
>>>
>>>
 SteveC writes:


>> Yeah, OK Dave, we've got the message, you don't free-format tags.
>> Unfortunately you're going to have to get used to it, because it
>> is the basis of the OPENstreetmap and, in my opinion, one of the
>> reasons it is as successful as it is.
>>
> +1
>
 -1.  Don't confuse anarchy with chaos.  SteveC is our leader (and
 should behave as such by Giving Advice), but he's only our leader so
 far as he gives Good Advice.

>>>
>>> It turns out I'm still allowed my opinions, and y'know given that I
>>> designed and implemented freeform tags... I think I'm allowed to
>>> promote them.
>>>
>> Free form Tags - Good, duplicate/irrelevant data - Bad.
>
> Nuclear power - good, nuclear weapons/contamination - Bad.
>
> C'mon... freeform tags set the community free, if you have a better 
> alternative please outline it?
>
> And by better, I mean one that on balance allows the most people to 
> participate and generate good data.
>
I Have.


___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Flickr Now Supports OSM Tags

[Dave F.]

Dave Stubbs wrote:
> On Thu, Oct 1, 2009 at 6:28 AM, Eugene Alvin Villar  wrote:
>   
>> On Thu, Oct 1, 2009 at 12:02 PM, Apollinaris Schoell 
>> wrote:
>> 
>>> On 30 Sep 2009, at 20:46 , Russ Nelson wrote:
>>>   
 No, he is a leader because we respect him.  THAT is how leaders in
 an anarchic state arise.

 
>>> yes he is a leader and as such deserves respect. he should lead some
>>> useful and intelligent projects and don't loose a word about this
>>> childish 1/0/yes/no/true/false discussions.
>>> a consumer of the data has to do a bit more work but this is a small
>>> fee for free access to an amazing database.
>>>
>>>   
>> The discussion is only childish if the tone of the discussion is childish.
>> But if people discuss this issue in a good manner, then it isn't childish.
>>
>> If we can remove that small fee, why not do it?
>>
>> What's so hard about standardizing on the boolean values given appropriate
>> changes to editor presets, good wiki documentation, and a deprecation period
>> for other boolean values?
>> 
>
>
> what's so hard?
> The hard part is figuring out what the hell any of this actually has
> to do with the thread topic.
> Amazingly tag-standardisation is not even /relevant/ to the original
> problem pointed out.
> Oh well... wouldn't be the internet if someone wasn't wrong on it.
>   
Did you not read Kyle's post - 29th 15:25
> Dave
>
> ___
> talk mailing list
> talk@openstreetmap.org
> http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>   


___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Flickr Now Supports OSM Tags

[Liz]

On Thu, 1 Oct 2009, Apollinaris Schoell wrote:
> a consumer of the data has to do a bit more work but this is a small  
> fee for free access to an amazing database.

but what does it say about us to the outside world?
are we portraying a forward looking group?
are we portraying an indecisive group?




___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Clarifying and representing road markings at junctions

[David Earl]

On 01/10/2009 11:47, Roy Wallace wrote:
> On Thu, Oct 1, 2009 at 8:05 PM, David Earl  wrote:
>> It shows visually which the "main" road is at the junction and is a good
>> model of the physical arrangement.
> 
> IMHO it does not *explicitly* show the "continuations of roads at the
> junction". And even if you do think it works "visually", that is not
> sufficient - there are many uses for OSM data.
> 
>>> b) it makes a single *way* continue through the intersection.
>> err, no. If the road has the same name around the corner it can do. If the
>> minor but straight on road has the same name it could be a continuous way,
>> but I would normally break it at that point, not least so the name of the
>> "minor" road is clear. But where ways break is of no significance - you have
>> to break ways at all sorts of places because of changes in the environment
>> like speed limits, starts of bridges etc.
> 
> Ah, so are you saying that, in Martin's attached image, the red way
> and the yellow way should/could meet at the junction? If so, then IMHO
> it is even *less* clear that, e.g. traveling from the red to the grey
> way is a left turn, whereas traveling from the red way to the yellow
> way is uninterrupted.

No I was referring to the real examples I quoted.

>> I think anyone looking at it would understand the arrangement on the ground,
>> and it does model the situation as I see it.
> 
> Don't be fooled - people are not the only ones that "look" at OSM data.

I don't understand this at all. I am just mapping what I see on the 
ground. And please don't patronise, I'm well aware of the uses of OSM 
data and have contributed to many of them.

The main road goes round a corner (and may or may not share the same 
name). I represent the corner even though there may be a straight kerb 
line on one side, when curvature exists e.g. on the opposite kerb or in 
the white lining.

The slight curve before the side road branches off might possibly allow 
a bright routing algorithm to describe it more accurately. But I think 
there would be ambiguity here independent of any mapping, because 
"straight on" is somewhat ambiguous, especially when it's not a complete 
right angle turn as sometimes happens.

In English I think I'd want to be told "follow the road round to the 
left" or some such in these circumstances, not a simple "turn left". A T 
junction certainly wouldn't achieve that possibility without more 
information. An explicit tagging would. But in the absence of that, 
modelling what's on the ground goes some way.

David


___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Flickr Now Supports OSM Tags

[Dave F.]

Frederik Ramm wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Eugene Alvin Villar wrote:
>   
>> What's so hard about standardizing on the boolean values given 
>> appropriate changes to editor presets, good wiki documentation, and a 
>> deprecation period for other boolean values?
>> 
>
> It's a kind of slippery slope situation. There is fear that once it has 
> been proven that standardisation works for true/false values, there will 
> be demands to standardise everything else as well.
>   
Not *everything* just the things that people feel need changing

Fear is not a good reason for the status quo.
> This would be positive for the users of our data in the short term 
> because it means they would not have to interpret the data; however it 
> would remove dynamism from the project and require mappers who want to 
> invent something new to apply to the standardisation committee first, 
> and we feel that this would be a severe detriment to further 
> participation on the mapper side. OSM flourishes partly because mappers 
> feel that they can help shape the project, and contribute what they 
> think is important, rather than just being mechanical turks (without the 
> payment).
>   
People would still think they would be contributing even with certain 
restraining guidelines.

> In the long term, standardisation would kill the project, and thus not 
> be desirable even for our users. - Coming from the outside and not 
> having the knowledge about OSM that we have
I find it very disappointing you feel there is a them & us situation.
> , users can be forgiven to demand 
Whoa, there. Who's demanding? Please, don't make things up.
> things that would ultimately destroy OSM,
>   
>  but it is our duty to 
> educate them and to explain to them that they can either take OSM as it 
> is, with some interpretation required, or they can demand that OSM 
> change but that would, in the long run, probably mean no OSM at all.
>   
This is starting to sound like quasi religious mumbo-jumbo:
'if you do this, the sky will fall on your head'

> I run a small company that, among other things, sells standardised 
> derivates of OSM data. I spend a lot of time trying to stay ahead of the 
> game, analyse what tags people use and for what, and try and convert 
> these into consistent and reliable values.
If there were certain restrictions you'd have to spend less time.
>  If OSM changes from 
> "landuse=forest" to "russ_nelson_sees=trees" because that's what mappers 
> what to use, then I can adapt and my customers don't have to, and 
> neither does the OSM community have to twist and turn just because some 
> users want consistent tagging.
>
> In my eyes, this is the way to deal with standardisation - do not force 
> it upon the mappers, but instead create a "filter layer". In my case 
> this is a commercial operation, but I have been suggesting for ages that 
> instead of writing bots to streamline OSM data, why don't people write 
> generic filters/standardising engines that take the "chaotic" OSM data 
> as of today and produce well-ordered standardised output for people "out 
> there" who cannot be bothered to keep up with OSM's tagging anarchy? It 
> would not be too hard.
>   
Isn't that just putting an artificial middle man into the equation?
Wouldn't it be better to have an organised, original data?
> And I'm not saying this because of my business (until now, keeping up 
> with changes and doing the standardisation takes more work than I get 
> paid for it so I would benefit from OSM itself being standardised); I 
> truly believe that the way things work in OSM, with "standards" being 
> un-enforceable and people constantly deviating from them (even if there 
> is a certain base consensus on many things) is the only way it *can* 
> work without degrading into some kind of Google Map Maker that does not 
> look for project members, but for worker ants.
>
> Bye
> Frederik
>
> ___
> talk mailing list
> talk@openstreetmap.org
> http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>
>
>   


___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Flickr Now Supports OSM Tags

[Dave Stubbs]

On Thu, Oct 1, 2009 at 12:28 PM, Dave F.  wrote:
> Dave Stubbs wrote:
>>
>> On Thu, Oct 1, 2009 at 6:28 AM, Eugene Alvin Villar 
>> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, Oct 1, 2009 at 12:02 PM, Apollinaris Schoell 
>>> wrote:
>>>

 On 30 Sep 2009, at 20:46 , Russ Nelson wrote:

>
> No, he is a leader because we respect him.  THAT is how leaders in
> an anarchic state arise.
>
>

 yes he is a leader and as such deserves respect. he should lead some
 useful and intelligent projects and don't loose a word about this
 childish 1/0/yes/no/true/false discussions.
 a consumer of the data has to do a bit more work but this is a small
 fee for free access to an amazing database.


>>>
>>> The discussion is only childish if the tone of the discussion is
>>> childish.
>>> But if people discuss this issue in a good manner, then it isn't
>>> childish.
>>>
>>> If we can remove that small fee, why not do it?
>>>
>>> What's so hard about standardizing on the boolean values given
>>> appropriate
>>> changes to editor presets, good wiki documentation, and a deprecation
>>> period
>>> for other boolean values?
>>>
>>
>>
>> what's so hard?
>> The hard part is figuring out what the hell any of this actually has
>> to do with the thread topic.
>> Amazingly tag-standardisation is not even /relevant/ to the original
>> problem pointed out.
>> Oh well... wouldn't be the internet if someone wasn't wrong on it.
>>
>
> Did you not read Kyle's post - 29th 15:25

Yes.
The original problem pointed out that I was referring to was: "It
works for building=yes, but not building=true".

Dave

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Flickr Now Supports OSM Tags

[Frederik Ramm]

Hi,

Dave F. wrote:
> I find it very disappointing you feel there is a them & us situation.

Yes, very disappointing but not every human being on earth happens to 
have an OSM account. We're working on it.

> Isn't that just putting an artificial middle man into the equation?

The cool thing about this is that users can control what kind of middle 
man they want.

> Wouldn't it be better to have an organised, original data?

Not in my eyes. If users come to us and say: "Hey, we'd like to have 
only 6 road categories not 18" then, instead of removing information in 
our database to be compliant, we simply give them a set of rules for 
their artificial middle man that gives them 6 road categories, and we 
don't even have to change all our editors and re-educate all our 
mappers. Best of both worlds, innit?

Bye
Frederik

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] SteveC should decide

[Dave F.]

Russ Nelson wrote:
>  > > > Yeah, OK Dave, we've got the message, you don't free-format tags.
>  > > 
>  > > +1
>  >
>  > -1.  Don't confuse anarchy with chaos.  SteveC is our leader (and
>  > should behave as such by Giving Advice), but he's only our leader so
>  > far as he gives Good Advice.
>
> I wish to be more plain.  I think that SteveC should be taking a more
> active role in decisions.  He and just I had a conversation in which
> he explained that he's tried doing that, and just gets flamed for
> being overbearing or evil or trying to push Cloudmade's interests.
>
> This is wrong.  There are times when any project needs leadership.
> It's unreasonable for us to expect that every open source project
> leader will be willing to subject himself to ad-hominem arguments.
> We need to stand up for our leaders, and when they're being abused,
Where in that thread was he being abused?

>  we
> need to defend them.  If we don't do that, then we'll get what we
> deserve: no leadership.
>
> I'm tired of this silly true/false 1/0 yes/no up/down left/right
> in/out fore/aft port/starboard debate/debacle.  It's trivial, it's
> stupid, we could just as easily toss a coin as engage in any rational
> debate about how binary values should be expressed.
>   
When it prevents flickr etc from displaying properly then I don't see it 
as trivial
> This is just wrong.  If SteveC says that "mountain=green" means that
> first there is a mountain, and that "mountain=blue" means there is no
> mountain, then damnit, we should do it that way.
>   
Oh my Lord, you've completely missed the point.
In relation to the boolean problem OSM is saying that blue & green are 
the *same* thing.

Cheers
Dave F.


___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Google Wants to Map Indoors, Too

[Dave F.]

John Smith wrote:
> I emailed westfields and centro, both are operators of shopping
> centres, about getting access to their floor plans in the various
> shopping centres they operate to add to OSM, unfortunately I received
> no reply at the time, maybe this is why.
>
> -
>
> An anonymous reader writes "Google maps are getting extended indoors
> next month with a new app called Micello that takes over where
> conventional navigators leave off — mapping your route inside of
> buildings, malls, convention centers and other points of interest. You
> don't get a 'you are here' blinking dot yet — but they do promise to
> add one next year using WiFi triangulation. At the introduction next
> month, Micello will only work in California, but they plan to expand
> to other major US cities during 2010."
>
> http://news.slashdot.org/story/09/09/30/2052258/Google-Wants-to-Map-Indoors-Too?from=rss
>
>
>   
Fantastic!
Does that mean I won't get depression from getting lost in Ikea of a 
weekend?

Dave F.

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

[OSM-talk] Please

[Richard Fairhurst]

...can we take the back-and-forths to IRC.

talk@ is the most important communication channel for OSM and it's  
very rapidly becoming unreadable - all the "I said", "no you said",  
"no I meant", "no you meant". I've spoken to a handful of people in  
the last few days who have unsubscribed from talk@ as a result of this.

We're a friendly bunch on IRC, honest. Either that, or let's have a  
tagging list. But not here.

Richard


___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] SteveC should decide

[Alex Pleiner]

* Frederik Ramm  [2009-10-01 11:50]:
> If we have open issues in the community that we cannot find a good 
> solution to, then the reason for this is not that we simply lack a good 
> Führer who tells us what is right and what is wrong; it is because these 
> issues are difficult and the community is perhaps divided about it. We 
> do not need anybody to make a decision in these cases; that doesn't help 
> at all.

Dear Frederik,

thank you very much for these brave words. +1

Alex

-- 
Alex Pleiner   zeitform Internet Dienste OHG
Tel./Fax: +49 (0) 6151 155-635 / -634   Fraunhoferstraße 5
PGP S/MIME: http://key.zeitform.de/ap   64283 Darmstadt, Germany
Reg: HRA 6898 (Amtsgericht Darmstadt)   http://www.zeitform.de

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Overlay showing wikipedia links

[andrzej zaborowski]

2009/9/30 Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason :
> On Wed, Sep 30, 2009 at 1:49 PM, andrzej zaborowski  wrote:
>> It's at http://www.openstreetmap.pl/wp (see caveats below).
>
> Neat.
>
>>  * Blue dots are wikipedia links, grey dots are other External Links
>> (website= and url= tags).  The wikipedia= value syntax is
>> ":Title" or "Title" alone for English wikipedia.  It
>> doesn't matter which wikipedia language you link to, the page is
>> always displayed in your chosen language, if available.
>
> We have a lot of wikipedia:= form in our database. That
> seems to be the recommended practice so perhaps you should support
> that too:

Good idea, I added the support now.  Also added better support for
wikipedia=.  If there are other tags that people use for
external links, let me know.

On one hand, there was a discussion here on the list and on irc at one
point about this form of tagging and it was argued that
wikipedia:= was good for when you want to have the given
language use a different wikipedia page, in addition to a generic link
in wikipedia=.  Or that it's easier to support technically.  I never
understood these arguments and want to encourage using a single
wikipedia= tag.

For the record here are the statistics of the current tag usage in the
tiles (IOW no US):

121098 wikipedia= tags
43429 of the above link to non-English wikipedias (i.e.
wikipedia=:)
35996 wikipedia:= tags
28184 url= tags

Cheers

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Flickr Now Supports OSM Tags

[Dave F.]

Dave Stubbs wrote:
> On Thu, Oct 1, 2009 at 12:28 PM, Dave F.  wrote:
>   
>> Dave Stubbs wrote:
>> 
>>> On Thu, Oct 1, 2009 at 6:28 AM, Eugene Alvin Villar 
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>   
 On Thu, Oct 1, 2009 at 12:02 PM, Apollinaris Schoell 
 wrote:

 
> On 30 Sep 2009, at 20:46 , Russ Nelson wrote:
>
>   
>> No, he is a leader because we respect him.  THAT is how leaders in
>> an anarchic state arise.
>>
>>
>> 
> yes he is a leader and as such deserves respect. he should lead some
> useful and intelligent projects and don't loose a word about this
> childish 1/0/yes/no/true/false discussions.
> a consumer of the data has to do a bit more work but this is a small
> fee for free access to an amazing database.
>
>
>   
 The discussion is only childish if the tone of the discussion is
 childish.
 But if people discuss this issue in a good manner, then it isn't
 childish.

 If we can remove that small fee, why not do it?

 What's so hard about standardizing on the boolean values given
 appropriate
 changes to editor presets, good wiki documentation, and a deprecation
 period
 for other boolean values?

 
>>> what's so hard?
>>> The hard part is figuring out what the hell any of this actually has
>>> to do with the thread topic.
>>> Amazingly tag-standardisation is not even /relevant/ to the original
>>> problem pointed out.
>>> Oh well... wouldn't be the internet if someone wasn't wrong on it.
>>>
>>>   
>> Did you not read Kyle's post - 29th 15:25
>> 
>
> Yes.
> The original problem pointed out that I was referring to was: "It
> works for building=yes, but not building=true".
>
>   
Which is the whole point of the following discussion. No?

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Flickr Now Supports OSM Tags

[Russ Nelson]

Frederik Ramm writes:
 > In the long term, standardisation would kill the project, and thus not 
 > be desirable even for our users. - Coming from the outside and not 
 > having the knowledge about OSM that we have, users can be forgiven to 
 > demand things that would ultimately destroy OSM,

That's a great theory, but I keep seeing some OSM editors trying to
convince other OSM editors that random tagging is a good thing, and
the other OSM editors asking for more consistency.  Might some editors
feel pressure to tag consistently?  Sure, but right now, other editors
are feeling pressure to tag randomly.

I don't see this as being driven by users of the data, but by editors
of the data.

And I'm not talking about forcing anybody to do anything, nor to not
accept edits which don't comply with wishes($SteveC).  I'm talking
about actually having standards which people who wish to comply with
standards can comply with.

-- 
--my blog is athttp://blog.russnelson.com
Crynwr supports open source software
521 Pleasant Valley Rd. | +1 315-323-1241
Potsdam, NY 13676-3213  | Sheepdog   

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Flickr Now Supports OSM Tags

[Dave F.]

Frederik Ramm wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Dave F. wrote:
>> I find it very disappointing you feel there is a them & us situation.
>
> Yes, very disappointing but not every human being on earth happens to 
> have an OSM account. We're working on it.
>
Sorry Fredrik, but you /were/ talking about people already within OSM:
"Coming from the outside and not having the knowledge about OSM that we 
have"
>> Isn't that just putting an artificial middle man into the equation?
>
> The cool thing about this is that users can control what kind of 
> middle man they want.
>
>> Wouldn't it be better to have an organised, original data?
>
> Not in my eyes. If users come to us and say: "Hey, we'd like to have 
> only 6 road categories not 18" then, instead of removing information 
> in our database to be compliant, we simply give them a set of rules 
> for their artificial middle man that gives them 6 road categories, and 
> we don't even have to change all our editors and re-educate all our 
> mappers. Best of both worlds, innit?
So what you have is an XSLT files that does the work that the likes of 
flickr would do & you sell them the service.
Which is fine, but you still have to work of sorting it out.
What I've been trying to say (& seemingly not doing a very good job of 
it) is that if there was certain standardisation that work load would be 
reduced.

Cheers
Dave F.

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

[OSM-talk] Is Cross posting allowed?

[Dave F.]

Hi

I notice some post the same message to multiple OSM forums.
In usenet I'd get flamed for it.
is it acceptable here?

Ta
Dave F.

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] [OSM-dev] The OpenStreetMap website is now translatable at Translatewiki

[Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason]

On Wed, Sep 23, 2009 at 11:52 PM, Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason
 wrote:
> I've now fixed Potlatch up so that it can be Translated on
> Translatewiki. Now it just needs to be imported into Translatewiki.
>
> I've put up a notice on the OSM wiki so that confused Translators
> won't use it in the interim:
>
>    
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php?title=Template:Potlatch/Translation&diff=345246&oldid=302899

It's now possible to translate Potlatch at Translatewiki too:
http://translatewiki.net/wiki/Translating:OpenStreetMap

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Please

[Liz]

On Thu, 1 Oct 2009, Richard Fairhurst wrote:
> ...can we take the back-and-forths to IRC.
>
> talk@ is the most important communication channel for OSM and it's
> very rapidly becoming unreadable - all the "I said", "no you said",
> "no I meant", "no you meant". I've spoken to a handful of people in
> the last few days who have unsubscribed from talk@ as a result of this.
>
> We're a friendly bunch on IRC, honest. Either that, or let's have a
> tagging list. But not here.
>
> Richard
>
Thankyou for this suggestion, but it doesn't deal with the needs of multiple 
time zones and asynchronous communication - or simply catching up after a few 
days away.



___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] SteveC should decide

[Russ Nelson]

Frederik Ramm writes:
 > Not at all. Russ has called for dictatorial leadership which the project 
 > should follow even if there were absolutely nonsensical decisions.

WHOA!!  I never said that.  What I said was that if we can't choose,
as a community, between yes/no, true/false, and 1/0, then SteveC
should choose one of them, arbitrarily, because it matters more that
we tag consistently than that everyone tag randomly.

And yes/no, true/false, and 1/0 are merely the low-hanging fruit.  The
real problems are things like name=NONAME (or have I just invented Yet
Another Trivially Different way of tagging roads with no name).
That's where the differences are small, the opinions are many, and
the negative effect on the database is large.

Yes, I realize that any one randomness can probably be papered-over,
but when the database is full of randomness, then it becomes harder to
use.  And I'm not editing because editing is fun (which it is).  I'm
editing because I want good, consistent data.

The randomness is not a good thing.  It's a case of a lack of
leadership.  Yes, free-form tags are a good thing.  They let people be
creative and not be bogged down when there is no standard.  But random
tags are a bad thing.  They blur the data.

 > If we have open issues in the community that we cannot find a good 
 > solution to,

Time spent arguing about tags is time away from editing.  Nothing is
free.

 > then the reason for this is not that we simply lack a good 
 > Führer who tells us what is right and what is wrong;

I invoke Godwin's Law.

 > it is because these issues are difficult and the community is
 > perhaps divided about it.

Surely you jest.  It's difficult to choose between yes/no and
true/false?  Please, pull the other one, it's got bells on.  Call me
Mr. Gullible, but not to my face.

 > I can't understand how some of you seem to be yearning for a power 
 > figure that absolves you from thinking for yourselves just to make 
 > things simpler.

I'd never ask anybody to make a decision that goes counter to their
wallet, because I know that 95% of people won't make that decision.

-- 
--my blog is athttp://blog.russnelson.com
Crynwr supports open source software
521 Pleasant Valley Rd. | +1 315-323-1241
Potsdam, NY 13676-3213  | Sheepdog   

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] SteveC should decide

[Dave Stubbs]

>> I'm tired of this silly true/false 1/0 yes/no up/down left/right
>> in/out fore/aft port/starboard debate/debacle.  It's trivial, it's
>> stupid, we could just as easily toss a coin as engage in any rational
>> debate about how binary values should be expressed.
>>
> When it prevents flickr etc from displaying properly then I don't see it
> as trivial

It isn't stopping flickr doing anything. They don't even look at any
binary tags according to their blog post.


>> This is just wrong.  If SteveC says that "mountain=green" means that
>> first there is a mountain, and that "mountain=blue" means there is no
>> mountain, then damnit, we should do it that way.
>>
> Oh my Lord, you've completely missed the point.
> In relation to the boolean problem OSM is saying that blue & green are
> the *same* thing.
>

no, just blue/#ff/rgb(0f,0f,1f) are the same thing

Dave

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] SteveC should decide

[Russ Nelson]

Andy Allan writes:
 > can win, and I decided about 6 months ago to ignore (or at least not
 > rise to) the eternally pointless tagging debate.

The reason it's eternal is because there's no one to choose.  Steve
refuses to do it because too many people give him hell when he does,
and nobody defends him for doing it.  Fine.  I'm officially defending
his right to say "This is the SteveC(tm) compliant way of tagging." 
without catching grief from people with more time to argue than edit.

I'm fine with anarchy; I'm an anarchist.  But chaos is not appealing
to me, otherwise I'd move to Somalia.

-- 
--my blog is athttp://blog.russnelson.com
Crynwr supports open source software
521 Pleasant Valley Rd. | +1 315-323-1241
Potsdam, NY 13676-3213  | Sheepdog   

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Flickr Now Supports OSM Tags

[Russ Nelson]

Frederik Ramm writes:
 > On the other side we have the mappers who do not save, or earn, any 
 > money from OSM, and the programmers and server admins and everyone who 
 > uses their spare time to create and run OSM.

On the other side you have mappers who want to create useful data, not
a pile of random rubbish.

 > But things are just the other way round in OSM. The mapper is always 
 > right,

So there is no purpose to the JOSM validator?  No purpose to
keepright?  No purpose to having presets?  I think you're exxagerating
too make a point, Fredrick.

-- 
--my blog is athttp://blog.russnelson.com
Crynwr supports open source software
521 Pleasant Valley Rd. | +1 315-323-1241
Potsdam, NY 13676-3213  | Sheepdog   

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Flickr Now Supports OSM Tags

[Russ Nelson]

SteveC wrote:
> C'mon... freeform tags set the community free, if you have a better 
> alternative please outline it?

How about you stepping in where there is an unresolvable controvery,
editing the wiki, and saying "I recommend this choice -- SteveC".  No
Nazi goose-stepping required, no dictating, no authoritarianism, just
an exercise of moral authority rightfully gained.

And from our perspective, allowing you to do that without personal
attacks (dudes, I've seen SteveC's basement, and I can report with
some authority that there IS NO PORTAL TO HELL there).

-- 
--my blog is athttp://blog.russnelson.com
Crynwr supports open source software
521 Pleasant Valley Rd. | +1 315-323-1241
Potsdam, NY 13676-3213  | Sheepdog   

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Overlay showing wikipedia links

[Pieren]

On Thu, Oct 1, 2009 at 2:34 PM, andrzej zaborowski
>I never understood these arguments and want to encourage using a single 
>wikipedia= tag.

I never understood people who wants to have wikipedia urls in OSM
data. It is not OSM role to point to wikipedia articles but wikipedia
to point to OSM geodata. And this has to be done through lat/lon
coordinates.
Otherwise, we will see nodes with 120 wikipedia url's (for each
language) and later it will be url's to myEncyclopedia or
myWordDictonnairy or yourFlickr and so on. OSM has not to replace
google for indexing every web application using geolocalized data.
Don't be surprised if one day, all those url's will be removed by a
clean-up bot.
Pieren

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] SteveC should decide

[Russ Nelson]

Dave F. writes:
 > > This is just wrong.  If SteveC says that "mountain=green" means that
 > > first there is a mountain, and that "mountain=blue" means there is no
 > > mountain, then damnit, we should do it that way.

Sheesh, has Donovan lost all his currency?

 > Oh my Lord, you've completely missed the point.

Errr, no, I agree with you.

 > In relation to the boolean problem OSM is saying that blue & green are 
 > the *same* thing.

No, I'm saying that mountain=green and mountain=viridian are the same
thing, but that when SteveC tells us to use green we should use green.

See, the thing about open source leadership is that it's never done
forcefully, because the community can fork the project.  It must be a
guiding hand, not a dictating hand.  And I trust SteveC to listen to
community input.  I mean, he had the wisdom to GIVE US free-form tags
in the first place, why shouldn't we listen to him when he says that
random tagging (it's building=puppy, damn those spaniards) is not
recommended.

-- 
--my blog is athttp://blog.russnelson.com
Crynwr supports open source software
521 Pleasant Valley Rd. | +1 315-323-1241
Potsdam, NY 13676-3213  | Sheepdog   

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Please

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2009/10/1 Richard Fairhurst :
> let's have a
> tagging list. But not here.

+1

Martin

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] SteveC should decide

[David Earl]

On 01/10/2009 13:51, Russ Nelson wrote:
> Frederik Ramm writes:
>  > Not at all. Russ has called for dictatorial leadership which the project 
>  > should follow even if there were absolutely nonsensical decisions.
> 
> WHOA!!  I never said that.  What I said was that if we can't choose,
> as a community, between yes/no, true/false, and 1/0, then SteveC
> should choose one of them, arbitrarily, because it matters more that
> we tag consistently than that everyone tag randomly.

Irrespective of how decision making happens, it hardly matters if there 
is no real way to control the outcome. Yes, we can have edit wars with 
the perverse ones who insist their way is better than the 
concensus/autocracy/democracy, but that's not a terribly productive way 
of working. Wasn't there a case where we had one bot going round 
changing true/false to yes/no and another doing exactly the opposite at 
the same time?

Which kind of leads into the discussion that's happening on the dev list 
this morning...

David

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Overlay showing wikipedia links

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2009/10/1 Pieren :
> I never understood people who wants to have wikipedia urls in OSM
> data. It is not OSM role to point to wikipedia articles but wikipedia
> to point to OSM geodata. And this has to be done through lat/lon
> coordinates.

in many cases it is interesting/usefull to have an OSM-feature linked
directly to wikipedia, (what doesn't exclude the other way round), but
I agree that 120 different language-links are not the way to go.
Wikipedia offers it's own tables to come from any language to any
other language for the same article, so one link in OSM should be
sufficient.

cheers,
Martin

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] SteveC should decide

[Pieren]

On Thu, Oct 1, 2009 at 2:56 PM, Russ Nelson  wrote:

Would it be a good compromise to say:
1. a software application should always check boolean against
"yes/true/1" and not only "yes"
2. the wiki shoudl "recommend" the "yes"
3. a bot is setup to replace regularly all values "true" or "1" by
"yes" and "false" or "0" by "no" (and nothing else).

In this way, mappers are still free to prefer "true" or "1" and we
"try" to keep some consistency. Or would this bot be banned ?

Pieren

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Please

[Matt Amos]

On Thu, Oct 1, 2009 at 2:12 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer
 wrote:
> 2009/10/1 Richard Fairhurst :
>> let's have a
>> tagging list. But not here.
>
> +1

+1

cheers,

matt

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] SteveC should decide

[Matt Amos]

On Thu, Oct 1, 2009 at 1:56 PM, Russ Nelson  wrote:
> Andy Allan writes:
>  > can win, and I decided about 6 months ago to ignore (or at least not
>  > rise to) the eternally pointless tagging debate.
>
> The reason it's eternal is because there's no one to choose.

surely it has more to do with different people having different opinions?

> Steve
> refuses to do it because too many people give him hell when he does,
> and nobody defends him for doing it.  Fine.  I'm officially defending
> his right to say "This is the SteveC(tm) compliant way of tagging."
> without catching grief from people with more time to argue than edit.

i absolutely agree. i'd also defend frederik's right to say "this is
the Frederik Ramm approved tagging scheme" without catching grief, or
andy to say it's the One True Gravitystorm way, etc... etc...

> I'm fine with anarchy; I'm an anarchist.  But chaos is not appealing
> to me, otherwise I'd move to Somalia.

you're fine with anarchy, but you'd like an organisational method of
resolving arguments? anarchy + rules?

free-form tagging was genius, but it was based on the idea that these
"folksonomies" (urgh, i hate that word) naturally converge by people
using them, tools consuming them and the feedback loops that creates.
we need to be strengthening those processes - not defining rules,
elevating adjudicators or otherwise compromising the original awesome
genius of free-form tagging.

cheers,

matt

PS: i resisted as long as i could. penance: http://imgur.com/paLI8.png

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Overlay showing wikipedia links

[andrzej zaborowski]

2009/10/1 Pieren :
> On Thu, Oct 1, 2009 at 2:34 PM, andrzej zaborowski
>>I never understood these arguments and want to encourage using a single 
>>wikipedia= tag.
>
> I never understood people who wants to have wikipedia urls in OSM
> data. It is not OSM role to point to wikipedia articles but wikipedia
> to point to OSM geodata. And this has to be done through lat/lon
> coordinates.

No, this is just stupid.

A page about a building or about a european route E30 has completely
nothing to do with with a pair of coordinates - this is just for
pretty display, has no semantical value.  There's a 1:1 correspondence
between the subject of the page and the route relation or building way
in OSM though.

> Otherwise, we will see nodes with 120 wikipedia url's (for each
> language) and later it will be url's to myEncyclopedia or

If you actually take the time to read my mail, you'll notice this is
what I'm arguing against.

> Don't be surprised if one day, all those url's will be removed by a
> clean-up bot.

That'll obviously be vandalism.

Cheers

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] SteveC should decide

[Peter Childs]

2009/10/1 Pieren :
> On Thu, Oct 1, 2009 at 2:56 PM, Russ Nelson  wrote:
>
> Would it be a good compromise to say:
> 1. a software application should always check boolean against
> "yes/true/1" and not only "yes"
> 2. the wiki shoudl "recommend" the "yes"
> 3. a bot is setup to replace regularly all values "true" or "1" by
> "yes" and "false" or "0" by "no" (and nothing else).
>
> In this way, mappers are still free to prefer "true" or "1" and we
> "try" to keep some consistency. Or would this bot be banned ?
>
> Pieren
>

The problem with this is that things are never that black and white
there are aways shades of Grey. Simple Parsing might be quite happy
with Yes/No or True/False, but 2 might mean something different to 1
while both can be inferred to mean yes.

Peter

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] SteveC should decide

[Sybren A . Stüvel]

On Thu, Oct 01, 2009 at 03:18:58PM +0200, Pieren wrote:
> Would it be a good compromise to say:
> 1. a software application should always check boolean against
> "yes/true/1" and not only "yes"
> 2. the wiki shoudl "recommend" the "yes"

I agree on that.

> 3. a bot is setup to replace regularly all values "true" or "1" by
> "yes" and "false" or "0" by "no" (and nothing else).

I'd like that, but with the addition that this is only done for a
select list of tags where we all agree on that yes=true=1 and
no=false=0. It would be a shame if we got layer=yes and stuff like
that.

Cheers,
-- 
Sybren A. Stüvel
http://stuvel.eu/


signature.asc
Description: Digital signature
___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] SteveC should decide

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2009/10/1 Dave Stubbs :
>>> I'm tired of this silly true/false 1/0 yes/no up/down left/right
>>> in/out fore/aft port/starboard debate/debacle.  It's trivial, it's
>>> stupid, we could just as easily toss a coin as engage in any rational
>>> debate about how binary values should be expressed.
>>>
>> When it prevents flickr etc from displaying properly then I don't see it
>> as trivial
>
> It isn't stopping flickr doing anything. They don't even look at any
> binary tags according to their blog post.

+1, besides: if, after 2 days of support in Flickr, not everything
already works at 100%, that's just a matter of time: they will be able
to look not just on yes/no but on 1/0 and true/false within short time
- like everyone else has to.

The presets already have been unified on yes/no, and nobody stops you
from substituting true/false to yes/no on other occurances.

Cheers,
Martin

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] SteveC should decide

[John Smith]

2009/10/1 Pieren :
> 3. a bot is setup to replace regularly all values "true" or "1" by
> "yes" and "false" or "0" by "no" (and nothing else).

Wouldn't that waste CPU cycles and bloat the change files for almost no benefit?
Wouldn't it be better if editors automated this before uploading?

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Please

[John Smith]

There is one small problem with this suggestion, if most new users are
invited to join this and other lists and the number of users are
increasing at an exponential rate the number of messages will go up at
an equal or greater rate, then what?

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Please

[Emilie Laffray]

2009/10/1 Richard Fairhurst 

>
> Either that, or let's have a tagging list. But not here.
>

+1

Emilie Laffray
___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Please

[Sam Vekemans]

+1
I just submitted a ticket.
http://trac.openstreetmap.org/ticket/2337

And made an entry in my diary about this

*Dear OSM users :
trac.openstreetmap.org
*

Hope that helps,
Cheers
Sam

Twitter: @Acrosscanada
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/sam.vekemans


On Thu, Oct 1, 2009 at 6:38 AM, John Smith wrote:

> There is one small problem with this suggestion, if most new users are
> invited to join this and other lists and the number of users are
> increasing at an exponential rate the number of messages will go up at
> an equal or greater rate, then what?
>
> ___
> talk mailing list
> talk@openstreetmap.org
> http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>
___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Overlay showing wikipedia links

[Pieren]

On Thu, Oct 1, 2009 at 3:28 PM, andrzej zaborowski

> No, this is just stupid.

Uh, that's a good argument. I'm sure the group of wikipedian's setting
up their own osm maps server will be happy to hear that.

> A page about a building or about a european route E30 has completely
> nothing to do with with a pair of coordinates - this is just for
> pretty display, has no semantical value.  There's a 1:1 correspondence
> between the subject of the page and the route relation or building way
> in OSM though.

I hope that wikipedia articles will not rely on elements id's from OSM
as all objects can be droped and recreated with a new id. What is more
reliable is the coordinates of the building (excepted when it is
mounted on wheels on very rare cases). The problem of a route is
different but I would hope that wikipedians will be able to generate
their own rendering for such things (which they are starting to do).

> If you actually take the time to read my mail, you'll notice this is
> what I'm arguing against.
> That'll obviously be vandalism.

You just think about wikipedia. But if you also read my email, I
suggest that when you allow this for wikipedia, you cannot forbid for
the 1000 other web sites who would like to be pointed by OSM. And
who will decide that what is good for wikipedia is not good for
microsoft bing or google bong or whatever. Then if you say "remove
microsoft url's", they will call you a vandal ?

Pieren

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Please

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2009/10/1 John Smith :
> There is one small problem with this suggestion, if most new users are
> invited to join this and other lists and the number of users are
> increasing at an exponential rate the number of messages will go up at
> an equal or greater rate, then what?

everybody could try to reduce contributions to the necessary?

Martin

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Please

[Sajjad Anwar]

+1
___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] SteveC should decide

[Pieren]

On Thu, Oct 1, 2009 at 3:32 PM, Peter Childs  wrote:
>
> The problem with this is that things are never that black and white
> there are aways shades of Grey. Simple Parsing might be quite happy
> with Yes/No or True/False, but 2 might mean something different to 1
> while both can be inferred to mean yes.
>
> Peter

Yes, I forgot to mention something that was obvious for me. The value
should be checked against his key. A maxspeed=1 or width=1 or layer=0
is of course possible (although not always sensible). But I'm not the
one who will write such bot, I was just asking if this would be well
considered or if it just a bad idea.
Pieren

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Is Cross posting allowed?

[Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason]

On Thu, Oct 1, 2009 at 12:43 PM, Dave F.  wrote:
> I notice some post the same message to multiple OSM forums.
> In usenet I'd get flamed for it.
> is it acceptable here?

Yes. If it's applicable to the forums you're sending it to.

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Please

[Ian Dees]

On Thu, Oct 1, 2009 at 8:38 AM, John Smith wrote:

> There is one small problem with this suggestion, if most new users are
> invited to join this and other lists and the number of users are
> increasing at an exponential rate the number of messages will go up at
> an equal or greater rate, then what?


In that case, hopefully the number of off-topic and chatty posts will go
down as more people have more on-topic questions to ask...

(For those of you with GMail, I would suggest looking into the "Mute
Conversation" function...)
___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] SteveC should decide

[Peter Childs]

2009/10/1 Pieren :
> On Thu, Oct 1, 2009 at 3:32 PM, Peter Childs  wrote:
>>
>> The problem with this is that things are never that black and white
>> there are aways shades of Grey. Simple Parsing might be quite happy
>> with Yes/No or True/False, but 2 might mean something different to 1
>> while both can be inferred to mean yes.
>>
>> Peter
>
> Yes, I forgot to mention something that was obvious for me. The value
> should be checked against his key. A maxspeed=1 or width=1 or layer=0
> is of course possible (although not always sensible). But I'm not the
> one who will write such bot, I was just asking if this would be well
> considered or if it just a bad idea.
> Pieren
>

My Fault bad example

its more Yes/No/Tuesdays, (Tuesday meaning Yes But only on a Tuesday)
which I guess in most cases should be in another tag, But the number
of times I've met -1 to mean True and then find a place where -1 is
False is not as small as you think. (Says he a Programmer)

Peter.

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] SteveC should decide

[Frederik Ramm]

Hi,

Matt Amos wrote:
> i absolutely agree. i'd also defend frederik's right to say "this is
> the Frederik Ramm approved tagging scheme" without catching grief, or
> andy to say it's the One True Gravitystorm way, etc... etc...

Now we're getting somewhere. This goes back to an idea floated a while 
ago by RichardF, and mentioned by Harry Wood in his talk at SOTM - I 
think it is called "tags I use".

The idea behind that (and correct me if I'm wrong) is that anyone makes 
their own decisions (just like now) and in cases where people think they 
have a good definition they put this on some kind of special wiki page 
or database or whatever ("tags I use, and how I use them"). Others can 
then choose to follow someone else's definitions, or not, or follow a 
mix, or create their own.

I'm ok with that kind of leadership where everyone can choose for 
himself by whom he wants to be led. I'm just not ok with A and B 
choosing a leader and C then has to follow.

Bye
Frederik


___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

[OSM-legal-talk] distribution

[Greg Holloway]

Hello,

I hope i have picked the right list to ask these questions, please alow me to 
explain myself;

I am a 4x4 off-roader and i have a laptop on the dash of my vehicle running 
memory map. I have been searching the internet for cheap & detailed maps. I 
have had little success. I took the decision to make my own maps. I have began 
compiling DVDs/CDs with map data taken from the US Gov GeoCover website 
https://zulu.ssc.nasa.gov/mrsid/mrsid.pl and openstreetmap xml data. i have 
then encoded it into geotiff tiles for use with memory map and other gps based 
software.

i have the intention of selling the dvds at cost, around £10. this will include 
a donation of £2.50 to openstreetmap. the remainder of the money will cover the 
free postage,ebay fees and the cost of a dvd with a case. I have been trying to 
find someone at openstreetmap that can help me with the legalities of putting 
openstreetmap onto a dvd which i then sell. I don't want to step on anyone toes 
as it were.

for an idea of what i am doing point your browsers to http://maps.sj410.co.uk 
on there i have the html which autorun when the dvd/cd is inserted into the 
users pc. i have only started work on iceland for the moment but i hope to 
include other contries if what i am doing is acceptable.

any advice would be greatly appreciated

Greg Holloway.
  
_
Get the best of MSN on your mobile
http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/147991039/direct/01/___
legal-talk mailing list
legal-t...@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Flickr Now Supports OSM Tags

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2009/10/1 Russ Nelson :
>  > But things are just the other way round in OSM. The mapper is always
>  > right,
>
> So there is no purpose to the JOSM validator?  No purpose to
> keepright?  No purpose to having presets?  I think you're exxagerating
> too make a point, Fredrick.

they are all limited, and in the end you (mapper) have to evaluate
their hints and remarks and judge whether to follow them or ignore
them. Every editor (AFAIK) has still the possibility to enter in
freeform any tag you like.

cheers,
Martin

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] SteveC should decide

[John Smith]

2009/10/2 Frederik Ramm :

> The idea behind that (and correct me if I'm wrong) is that anyone makes
> their own decisions (just like now) and in cases where people think they
> have a good definition they put this on some kind of special wiki page
> or database or whatever ("tags I use, and how I use them"). Others can
> then choose to follow someone else's definitions, or not, or follow a
> mix, or create their own.

What happens when people fail to document what they're doing?

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] SteveC should decide

[Andy Robinson (blackadder-lists)]

Matt Amos wrote:
>Sent: 01 October 2009 2:25 PM
>To: Russ Nelson
>Cc: talk@openstreetmap.org
>Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] SteveC should decide
>
>On Thu, Oct 1, 2009 at 1:56 PM, Russ Nelson  wrote:
>> Andy Allan writes:
>>  > can win, and I decided about 6 months ago to ignore (or at least not
>>  > rise to) the eternally pointless tagging debate.
>>
>> The reason it's eternal is because there's no one to choose.
>
>surely it has more to do with different people having different opinions?
>
>> Steve
>> refuses to do it because too many people give him hell when he does,
>> and nobody defends him for doing it.  Fine.  I'm officially defending
>> his right to say "This is the SteveC(tm) compliant way of tagging."
>> without catching grief from people with more time to argue than edit.
>
>i absolutely agree. i'd also defend frederik's right to say "this is
>the Frederik Ramm approved tagging scheme" without catching grief, or
>andy to say it's the One True Gravitystorm way, etc... etc...
>
>> I'm fine with anarchy; I'm an anarchist.  But chaos is not appealing
>> to me, otherwise I'd move to Somalia.
>
>you're fine with anarchy, but you'd like an organisational method of
>resolving arguments? anarchy + rules?
>
>free-form tagging was genius, but it was based on the idea that these
>"folksonomies" (urgh, i hate that word) naturally converge by people
>using them, tools consuming them and the feedback loops that creates.
>we need to be strengthening those processes - not defining rules,
>elevating adjudicators or otherwise compromising the original awesome
>genius of free-form tagging.

The reality is that there is natural convergence for most tags. Now that’s
not to say there won't be more than one tag for the same thing, there will.
It just means that something is tagged predominately one way rather than any
other way. Does that make the other tags wrong? Of course not. It would only
be wrong if it made no logical sense and nobody could understand it. 

So I agree with Matt. To me its not the tags that need controls it’s the
process by which we select them. Mostly I guess tags (as the originator of
Map Features I can remember most of the basics and have a good idea, my
personal idea, of how to build up tags beyond that. Now, if I guess and had
some tool tell me that my guess was close to some other tags (A top 10 list
if you like) I might choose differently. That would be better than
guesswork, but still allow the freeform tagging that permits me to get stuff
mapped quickly. I don’t have time to read the manual!

Cheers

Andy 


___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] SteveC should decide

[Andy Robinson (blackadder-lists)]

Frederik Ramm wrote:
>Sent: 01 October 2009 3:13 PM
>To: Matt Amos
>Cc: talk@openstreetmap.org
>Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] SteveC should decide
>
>Hi,
>
>Matt Amos wrote:
>> i absolutely agree. i'd also defend frederik's right to say "this is
>> the Frederik Ramm approved tagging scheme" without catching grief, or
>> andy to say it's the One True Gravitystorm way, etc... etc...
>
>Now we're getting somewhere. This goes back to an idea floated a while
>ago by RichardF, and mentioned by Harry Wood in his talk at SOTM - I
>think it is called "tags I use".
>
>The idea behind that (and correct me if I'm wrong) is that anyone makes
>their own decisions (just like now) and in cases where people think they
>have a good definition they put this on some kind of special wiki page
>or database or whatever ("tags I use, and how I use them"). Others can
>then choose to follow someone else's definitions, or not, or follow a
>mix, or create their own.
>
>I'm ok with that kind of leadership where everyone can choose for
>himself by whom he wants to be led. I'm just not ok with A and B
>choosing a leader and C then has to follow.
>

+1

Cheers

Andy



___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] SteveC should decide

[Andy Robinson (blackadder-lists)]

John Smith wrote:
>Sent: 01 October 2009 3:23 PM
>To: Frederik Ramm
>Cc: talk@openstreetmap.org
>Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] SteveC should decide
>
>2009/10/2 Frederik Ramm :
>
>> The idea behind that (and correct me if I'm wrong) is that anyone makes
>> their own decisions (just like now) and in cases where people think they
>> have a good definition they put this on some kind of special wiki page
>> or database or whatever ("tags I use, and how I use them"). Others can
>> then choose to follow someone else's definitions, or not, or follow a
>> mix, or create their own.
>
>What happens when people fail to document what they're doing?
>

All the documentation you need in the database already. Look up a users
edits and then analyse the tags used.

Cheers

Andy


___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] SteveC should decide

[John Smith]

2009/10/2 Andy Robinson (blackadder-lists) :
> John Smith wrote:
>>Sent: 01 October 2009 3:23 PM
>>To: Frederik Ramm
>>Cc: talk@openstreetmap.org
>>Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] SteveC should decide
>>
>>2009/10/2 Frederik Ramm :
>>
>>> The idea behind that (and correct me if I'm wrong) is that anyone makes
>>> their own decisions (just like now) and in cases where people think they
>>> have a good definition they put this on some kind of special wiki page
>>> or database or whatever ("tags I use, and how I use them"). Others can
>>> then choose to follow someone else's definitions, or not, or follow a
>>> mix, or create their own.
>>
>>What happens when people fail to document what they're doing?
>>
>
> All the documentation you need in the database already. Look up a users
> edits and then analyse the tags used.

Seems like a lot of effort and may be very imprecise depending how
consistent the person is.

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] SteveC should decide

[John Smith]

2009/10/2 Andy Robinson (blackadder-lists) :
> So I agree with Matt. To me its not the tags that need controls it’s the
> process by which we select them. Mostly I guess tags (as the originator of
> Map Features I can remember most of the basics and have a good idea, my
> personal idea, of how to build up tags beyond that. Now, if I guess and had
> some tool tell me that my guess was close to some other tags (A top 10 list
> if you like) I might choose differently. That would be better than
> guesswork, but still allow the freeform tagging that permits me to get stuff
> mapped quickly. I don’t have time to read the manual!

+1

At present JOSM only gives you an alphabetically sorted list of tags
based on the area loaded, if this was a top 10 list from a much wider
area that would be immensely more useful.

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Flickr Now Supports OSM Tags

[Jonathan Bennett]

Russ Nelson wrote:
> On the other side you have mappers who want to create useful data, not
> a pile of random rubbish.

No-one wants to create random rubbish. What people do want is to be able
to describe what they've just mapped without needing prior approval from
the OpenStreetMap Tagging Standardisation Committee.

> So there is no purpose to the JOSM validator?  No purpose to
> keepright?  No purpose to having presets?  I think you're exxagerating
> too make a point, Fredrick.

They're just tools. They can only give you information, not make
decisions for you. They can also be wrong sometimes.



-- 
Jonathan (Jonobennett)

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Overlay showing wikipedia links

[Tobias Knerr]

Pieren wrote:
> I never understood people who wants to have wikipedia urls in OSM
> data. It is not OSM role to point to wikipedia articles but wikipedia
> to point to OSM geodata. And this has to be done through lat/lon
> coordinates.

lat/lon coordinates aren't an ideal solution for this. Imagine some live
rendering (using JavaScript, Flash or whatever). The programmer wants to
add the following features:
- different color for buildings with Wikipedia article
- mouseover highlighting of buildings
- clicking on highlighted building opens Wikipedia article
Can the programmer do that with lat/lon? No. Because lat/lon doesn't
offer a connection between an article and a certain OSM primitive.
Similarly, in a map with icons for POIs, you will need to add additional
icons for Wikipedia links, so you will end up with two icons for the
same POI. And so on.

So what can we do to store that connection? We can

- link to a Wikipedia article from OSM
-> does work, but of course this causes a "notability" problem if links
to other sites are added, too

- link to an OSM id from Wikipedia
-> ids are probably too fragile

- invent some new way of adressing OSM objects;
for example: lat/lon + tag(s) that will be looked up in some region area
around the lat/lon ("The pub with name=Foo near that location")
-> could be a rather robust solution, but doesn't exist right now

Therefore, I can understand very well why people are adding wikipedia=*
tags. It might cause problems later, but the other solutions have
apparent flaws right now.

Tobias Knerr

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Flickr Now Supports OSM Tags

[Apollinaris Schoell]

>>
>> yes he is a leader and as such deserves respect. he should lead some
>> useful and intelligent projects and don't loose a word about this
>> childish 1/0/yes/no/true/false discussions.
>> a consumer of the data has to do a bit more work but this is a small
>> fee for free access to an amazing database.
>>
> I find it disappointing you think this discussion childish. As Eugene
> pointed out it's only the tone of the people that post that would make
> it so not the subject matter.
>

After reading talk for months I have learned all these discussions are  
a waste of time. very few of the people filling the mailbox do any  
work to change it. any thread with more than 20 mails is going nowhere
read the mail from Andy earlier today again and this is the correct  
attitude. He decided to do something about it. If it's good I can't  
tell because I didn't check. But better than just complaining and  
starting the same discussion 3 month later again and again 
read the archives if you don't believe it.

> I'm finding this thread a good learning experience about OSM & it's
> mappers. Not always a positive one, I have to admit, but I can't have
> everything.
>

It is anarchy and don't expect a structure of a commercial project.  
BUT you get a lot of benefits for free!

> If the consumers had to do less work then OSM would get *more*
> consumers. Which is half the point of the exercise, isn't it?
> To pass on an easily solved problem like this for others to sort out  
> is,
> as I said before IMO - selfish.
>

again it's free. anyone can change and contribute. If you know a  
solution go ahead and change it. we can all learn from osm, wikipedia  
and other projects. they have different dynamics and if users can't  
accept the freedom they don't need to use it.

> The expression "take responsibility for your own actions" doesn't  
> appear
> to carry much weight around here.


don't think so. the ones doing the hard work in the background rarely  
contribute to these childish discussions because they DO something  
useful instead wasting their time.

>
> Cheers
> Dave F.
>
>
> Cheers
> Dave F.
>
>
> ___
> talk mailing list
> talk@openstreetmap.org
> http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk


___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Please

[malenki]

Liz wrote:

>Thankyou for this suggestion, but it doesn't deal with the needs of
>multiple time zones and asynchronous communication - or simply
>catching up after a few days away.

What I would like to see is a search which looks only into osm*-stuff:
mails, forum and wiki.
With good hits it would ease a lot of searches.

Regards
malenki


___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Please

[Ian Dees]

On Thu, Oct 1, 2009 at 11:29 AM, malenki  wrote:

> Liz wrote:
>
> >Thankyou for this suggestion, but it doesn't deal with the needs of
> >multiple time zones and asynchronous communication - or simply
> >catching up after a few days away.
>
> What I would like to see is a search which looks only into osm*-stuff:
> mails, forum and wiki.
> With good hits it would ease a lot of searches.
>

http://www.google.com/cse/home?cx=015487330990472192076:qvmeg3q9qus
___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Please

[Dave F.]

Ian Dees wrote:
> On Thu, Oct 1, 2009 at 11:29 AM, malenki  > wrote:
>
> Liz wrote:
>
> >Thankyou for this suggestion, but it doesn't deal with the needs of
> >multiple time zones and asynchronous communication - or simply
> >catching up after a few days away.
>
> What I would like to see is a search which looks only into osm*-stuff:
> mails, forum and wiki.
> With good hits it would ease a lot of searches.
>
>
> http://www.google.com/cse/home?cx=015487330990472192076:qvmeg3q9qus
Thanks for that. It will really help everybody.
I assume you just set it up. Looks good.

Do you want to publicise it in the newbie forum?

Cheers
Dave F.

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Please

[malenki]

Ian Dees wrote:

>http://www.google.com/cse/home?cx=015487330990472192076:qvmeg3q9qus

Thanks. (not mentioning the usual google-blah ;))



___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Overlay showing wikipedia links

[andrzej zaborowski]

2009/10/1 Pieren :
> On Thu, Oct 1, 2009 at 3:28 PM, andrzej zaborowski
> Uh, that's a good argument. I'm sure the group of wikipedian's setting
> up their own osm maps server will be happy to hear that.

That effort has completely different goals and again it's to prettify
the pages, it has no direct value for OSM's data.  But even there the
pair of coordinates is not enough -- how often do you click the
geohack link on a wikipedia page to be taken to a zoom level that's
completely off?

A place on the map can be at the same time a POI, in the middle of a
street and inside 10 different polygons.

>
>> A page about a building or about a european route E30 has completely
>> nothing to do with with a pair of coordinates - this is just for
>> pretty display, has no semantical value.  There's a 1:1 correspondence
>> between the subject of the page and the route relation or building way
>> in OSM though.
>
> I hope that wikipedia articles will not rely on elements id's from OSM
> as all objects can be droped and recreated with a new id. What is more
> reliable is the coordinates of the building (excepted when it is
> mounted on wheels on very rare cases). The problem of a route is
> different but I would hope that wikipedians will be able to generate
> their own rendering for such things (which they are starting to do).

(Hint: it's not for rendering).

I don't really care where that link is stored, but Linked Data ([1])
is definitely a good thing and wikipedia currently provides no common
way to add links to osm objects.  Also wikipedia page titles are more
stable than our IDs and when pages get moved redirects are usually
added.  Effectively a wikipedia page's title + language code is a kind
of Universal Resource Identifier.  The other 1000 data bases can
use the same kind of identifier, or a different one, but let's keep
the information somewhere that two objects in different data bases are
effectively the same real world object.  There are endless
possibilities this brings to our data users.

Obviously things will be out of date at times, like all of our tags.
Nothing new here.

1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linked_Data

>
>> If you actually take the time to read my mail, you'll notice this is
>> what I'm arguing against.
>> That'll obviously be vandalism.
>
> You just think about wikipedia. But if you also read my email, I
> suggest that when you allow this for wikipedia, you cannot forbid for
> the 1000 other web sites who would like to be pointed by OSM. And
> who will decide that what is good for wikipedia is not good for
> microsoft bing or google bong or whatever. Then if you say "remove
> microsoft url's", they will call you a vandal ?

Yep, if you're removing something, especially using a bot, and without
even attempting to contact the authors or the Data Working Group
you're a vandal.

Cheers

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Please

[Andy Allan]

On Thu, Oct 1, 2009 at 2:38 PM, John Smith  wrote:
> There is one small problem with this suggestion, if most new users are
> invited to join this and other lists and the number of users are
> increasing at an exponential rate the number of messages will go up at
> an equal or greater rate, then what?

Then the people who are mailing more than their fair share of posts
will be asked to post less often. Hopefully they will realise that
every time they post to the list it's delivered to 1,000s of others
and they should keep their contributions under control.

Cheers,
Andy

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Please

[John Smith]

2009/10/2 Andy Allan :
> Then the people who are mailing more than their fair share of posts
> will be asked to post less often. Hopefully they will realise that
> every time they post to the list it's delivered to 1,000s of others
> and they should keep their contributions under control.

What exactly is this magical limit of fair share?

Or is it another Unlimited*

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Flickr Now Supports OSM Tags

[Ulf Lamping]

Jonathan Bennett schrieb:
> Russ Nelson wrote:
>> On the other side you have mappers who want to create useful data, not
>> a pile of random rubbish.
> 
> No-one wants to create random rubbish. What people do want is to be able
> to describe what they've just mapped without needing prior approval from
> the OpenStreetMap Tagging Standardisation Committee.

Yes: "No-one wants to create random rubbish. What people do want is to 
be able to describe what they've just mapped ..."

No: "... without needing prior approval from the OpenStreetMap Tagging 
Standardisation Committee."


All of the people I've talked to here in my area would love to see a 
tagging scheme to be able to map the stuff they see on the ground. They 
wouldn't care less where this "standard" was coming from - even if it 
would come from Mars or from the deep blue sea.

Regards, ULFL

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Flickr Now Supports OSM Tags

[Eugene Alvin Villar]

On Fri, Oct 2, 2009 at 2:15 AM, Ulf Lamping wrote:

>
> All of the people I've talked to here in my area would love to see a
> tagging scheme to be able to map the stuff they see on the ground. They
> wouldn't care less where this "standard" was coming from - even if it
> would come from Mars or from the deep blue sea.
>

+1
___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Flickr Now Supports OSM Tags

[Ulf Lamping]

Roy Wallace schrieb:
> On Thu, Oct 1, 2009 at 12:36 PM, Ulf Lamping  
> wrote:
>> What you and others simply fail to explain is why the success story from
>>  three years ago with a fraction of mappers and data must be the best
>> solution for the situation we have today ...
> 
> This misses the point. If you think there should be a major change to
> the way OSM is run, the onus is on you to explain why.

Where did I propose a major change?

I was pointing out that the given (and often repeated) argument is not 
as good as it first seems.


Lot's of ideas currently floating around: "free form tags", "dictator", 
"steering committee", "what I am tagging", ...

I don't know what's best. There are advantages and problems with each of 
these ideas. Maybe we'll end up with a mix: "free form tags" in general 
(for exploring new tags) and a "steering committee" for tags that are 
used more than xy (to stabilize stuff for mappers and consumers). Maybe 
we'll end up in a completely different wonderful way to tag things.

However, responding to a new idea with "that's not OSM" (as it was done) 
is certainly not good to find the best way of tagging stuff ...

Regards, ULFL

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Clarifying and representing road markings at junctions

[Roy Wallace]

On Thu, Oct 1, 2009 at 9:35 PM, David Earl  wrote:
>>
>> Ah, so are you saying that, in Martin's attached image, the red way
>> and the yellow way should/could meet at the junction? If so, then IMHO
>> it is even *less* clear that, e.g. traveling from the red to the grey
>> way is a left turn, whereas traveling from the red way to the yellow
>> way is uninterrupted.
>
> No I was referring to the real examples I quoted.

A picture would help my brain...sorry.

>>> I think anyone looking at it would understand the arrangement on the
>>> ground,
>>> and it does model the situation as I see it.
>>
>> Don't be fooled - people are not the only ones that "look" at OSM data.
>
> I don't understand this at all. I am just mapping what I see on the ground.
> And please don't patronise, I'm well aware of the uses of OSM data and have
> contributed to many of them.

Apologies if that came across patronising - I really didn't mean it
that way. My point is that IMHO mapping so that it is understood when
looked at by a person is not sufficient (as, it seems, you're already
well aware).

> The main road goes round a corner (and may or may not share the same name).
> I represent the corner even though there may be a straight kerb line on one
> side, when curvature exists e.g. on the opposite kerb or in the white
> lining.

That's all fine. I'm just saying that *doesn't* indicate that
following the curved road *doesn't* constitute a turn.

> In English I think I'd want to be told "follow the road round to the left"
> or some such in these circumstances, not a simple "turn left".

Exactly - for software to be able to say, e.g. "follow the road around
to the ", the mapper needs to be able to map
"continuations of roads at junctions". This can be done explicitly,
using the methods (relations) I described. Using a curve does not do
this explicitly.

> A T junction
> certainly wouldn't achieve that possibility without more information. An
> explicit tagging would. But in the absence of that, modelling what's on the
> ground goes some way.

We agree here. Modeling what's on the ground (e.g. curves, etc.) goes
some way, but does not answer the original poster's question. For
that, we seem to agree that we need explicit tagging. What did you
think of my suggestions?

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

[OSM-talk] [tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - ( tag:landuse=garages )

[Kirill (Zkir)]

Hi All,
 
If there is no new comments for this proposal (in the discussion page) in
the next two days, it's status will be set to 'voting'.

  _  

From: Кирилл [mailto:mekil...@yandex.ru] 
Sent: Saturday, September 12, 2009 1:50 AM
To: 'talk@openstreetmap.org'
Subject: [tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - ( tag:landuse=garages )



Hi All,

The proposal  for new feature landuse=garages is ready for discussion. 

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/tag:landuse%3Dgarages

 
Comments are welcomed!
 
//Zkir




 

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

[OSM-talk] Using osm2pgsql can I import into postgres in a projection other than Spherical Mercator (epsg:900913) like wgs84 (epsg:4326)

[John Mitchell]

Hi,

Your documentation states for using osm2pqsql (listed below) :


*Before you can use osm2pqsql for the first time with the Spherical Mercator
projection (see below), you need to initialize configuration data for this
projection. Do this by running the .sql file included with osm2pqsql: *

*[Syntax on Windows]
$ psql -d gis -f c:\osm2pgsql\900913.sql
--
*


Using osm2pgsql can I import into postgres in a projection other than
Spherical Mercator (epsg:900913) like wgs84 (epsg:4326)?

Thanks,

John

-- 
John J. Mitchell
___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Using osm2pgsql can I import into postgres in a projection other than Spherical Mercator (epsg:900913) like wgs84 (epsg:4326)

[Emilie Laffray]

To import into 4326, use the parameter -l
Emilie Laffray

2009/10/1 John Mitchell 

> Hi,
>
> Your documentation states for using osm2pqsql (listed below) :
>
> 
>
> *Before you can use osm2pqsql for the first time with the Spherical
> Mercator projection (see below), you need to initialize configuration data
> for this projection. Do this by running the .sql file included with
> osm2pqsql: *
>
> *[Syntax on Windows]
> $ psql -d gis -f c:\osm2pgsql\900913.sql
> --
> *
>
>
> Using osm2pgsql can I import into postgres in a projection other than
> Spherical Mercator (epsg:900913) like wgs84 (epsg:4326)?
>
> Thanks,
>
> John
>
> --
> John J. Mitchell
>
> ___
> talk mailing list
> talk@openstreetmap.org
> http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>
>
___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Using osm2pgsql can I import into postgres in a projection other than Spherical Mercator (epsg:900913) like wgs84 (epsg:4326)

[John Mitchell]

So for the osm2pgsql command I add -l to it.

Correct?

On Thu, Oct 1, 2009 at 6:01 PM, Emilie Laffray wrote:

> To import into 4326, use the parameter -l
> Emilie Laffray
>
> 2009/10/1 John Mitchell 
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> Your documentation states for using osm2pqsql (listed below) :
>>
>> 
>>
>> *Before you can use osm2pqsql for the first time with the Spherical
>> Mercator projection (see below), you need to initialize configuration data
>> for this projection. Do this by running the .sql file included with
>> osm2pqsql: *
>>
>> *[Syntax on Windows]
>> $ psql -d gis -f c:\osm2pgsql\900913.sql
>> --
>> *
>>
>>
>> Using osm2pgsql can I import into postgres in a projection other than
>> Spherical Mercator (epsg:900913) like wgs84 (epsg:4326)?
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> John
>>
>> --
>> John J. Mitchell
>>
>> ___
>> talk mailing list
>> talk@openstreetmap.org
>> http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>>
>>
>


-- 
John J. Mitchell
___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk