Re: [Talk-us-bayarea] [Talk-us] U.S. Local Chapters
I'd recommend setting up the draft bylaws prior to making the decision of where to incorporate. How we want to run the organization will help determine where (and whether) to incorporate. And I'd recommend deciding upon membership types/fees prior to writing the draft bylaws, since that will be a major part of the bylaws. Apart from that, I pretty much agree. Is too much to ask for to have everyone interested in the conference call set up Skype? On Thu, Oct 1, 2009 at 2:02 PM, Sarah Manley sarah.m.man...@gmail.comwrote: Yes, that was helpful, thanks Bill. So, as mentioned before, we should probably set a time to plan a conference call so we can start to make some decisions. Does anyone have access to a conference call service? I do not. I would say a tentative agenda is: 1. decide where we plan to incorporate (I think we can request proposals to be listed on the wiki prior and establish a way to vote on it). 2. allocating legal assistance 3. est. a timeline for ratifying draft rules 4. closer look at OSMF local chapter agreement 5. finances-- begin discussing membership types/fees/accounting 6. board selection - begin discussing process for electing board members, and early nominations 7. and Also, if anyone has connections at wikimedia ( I have some I can try to work on), it would probably be helpful to have someone from there who has already gone through a similar process to be on our call or for one of us to report back to the group with their suggestions/advice. Best, Sarah On Wed, Sep 30, 2009 at 9:48 AM, SteveC st...@asklater.com wrote: Really interesting post, thanks On 29 Sep 2009, at 20:10, Bill Ricker wrote: If your are going to incorporate at a national level, please look at examples of good and bad examples in the FOSS community. GrokLaw linked to this discussion, which has relevance outside its own niche. http://www.consortiuminfo.org/standardsblog/article.php?story=20090914102959510 Bill n1...@arrl.net bill.n1...@gmail.com Yours c. Steve ___ Talk-us mailing list talk...@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us ___ Talk-us-bayarea mailing list Talk-us-bayarea@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us-bayarea
Re: [Talk-us-bayarea] [Talk-us] U.S. Local Chapters
It was pointed out to me that there are draft bylaws at http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Foundation/Local_Chapters/United_States/Draft_Rules I responded to them at http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Foundation/Local_Chapters/United_States/Draft_Rules On Thu, Oct 1, 2009 at 2:19 PM, Anthony o...@inbox.org wrote: I'd recommend setting up the draft bylaws prior to making the decision of where to incorporate. How we want to run the organization will help determine where (and whether) to incorporate. And I'd recommend deciding upon membership types/fees prior to writing the draft bylaws, since that will be a major part of the bylaws. Apart from that, I pretty much agree. Is too much to ask for to have everyone interested in the conference call set up Skype? ___ Talk-us-bayarea mailing list Talk-us-bayarea@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us-bayarea
Re: [Talk-hr] Javni podaci
OSM je trenutno u fazi iplementacije (http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Open_Data_License/Implementation_Plan) nove licence pa je zapravo pitanje bilo da li ukljuciti ODbL ili CC A-SA2 2009/10/1 Darko Boto darko.b...@gmail.com: Kako stoji stvar sa licencom? OSM prelazi na ODbL. To bi u svakom slucaju trebalo staviti u taj zahtjev/molbu. ODbL: http://www.opendatacommons.org/ http://www.opendatacommons.org/guide/ 2009/10/1 nixa nikola.kapralje...@gmail.com: A da otvorimo onda nekakav google doc i tamo lijepo napisemo molbu za ustpuanjem podataka. Tako bi ju svi mogli koristiti i pokusati doci do podataka u svojim gradovima. Marko Dimjasevic wrote: Bok! On Srijeda, 30. Rujan 2009. 21:43:52 Darko Boto wrote: Nacelno vec imam koncept u glavi no ako netko zna tocno artikulirati ono sto bi trebali traziti bilo bi mi od pomoci. Predlažem da onda to napišeš tu na listi, a tko je voljan (ja jesam) komentiram i eventualno predložim izmjene. ___ Talk-hr mailing list Talk-hr@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-hr ___ Talk-hr mailing list Talk-hr@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-hr
Re: [Talk-hr] Javni podaci
On Četvrtak, 01. Listopad 2009. 10:51:00 Valent Turkovic wrote: Mozemo li i onaj tvoj dopis koristiti? Nisi se izjasnio kada sam te pitao u proslome threadu. Da, naravno, to sam i napomenuo i zato sam ga poslao na listu (iako nisam siguran jel je na kraju dospio na listu jer je trebao odobrenje administratora liste). Heh, nije mi bilo jasno pitaš li mene ili nekog drugog jer si quotao nekog drugog. -- Poz, Dim uBlog: http://identi.ca/mdim Blog: http://akuzativ.wordpress.com/ ___ Talk-hr mailing list Talk-hr@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-hr
[Talk-hr] Primjer OSM-a u primjeni (javni prijevoz)
Naisao sam na odlican primjer primjene OSM-a u sluzbi javnog prijevoza: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Chennai/Bus_Route_mapping_project Zasto ne tako nesto napraviti i u hrvatskoj? -- pratite me na twitteru - www.twitter.com/valentt http://kernelreloaded.blog385.com/ linux, blog, anime, spirituality, windsurf, wireless registered as user #367004 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org. ICQ: 2125241, Skype: valent.turkovic ___ Talk-hr mailing list Talk-hr@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-hr
Re: [talk-ph] Fwd: need help on mapping for ondoy/Kestana flood victims in Metro Manila
Hi, I have updated the wikipage: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Humanitarian_OSM_Team/philippines_ondoy I tried to compile resources discussed in the mailinglist. Please add more ideas on how we can help. At the moment I think we should start improving data on affected areas: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Humanitarian_OSM_Team/philippines_ondoy#Data_updates cheers, maning On Thu, Oct 1, 2009 at 10:39 AM, maning sambale emmanuel.samb...@gmail.com wrote: @ michael cole Let's wait till mikel maron set-up something for us. In the meantime, please help compiling more data on which areas have been affected. On Thu, Oct 1, 2009 at 10:36 AM, Michael Cole colemic...@gmail.com wrote: How much space you need on server? Regards Michael Cole. On Thursday 01 October 2009 9:33:56 am maning sambale wrote: Hi, Just got back online. On Wed, Sep 30, 2009 at 9:45 PM, Mikel Maron mikel_ma...@yahoo.com wrote: Are you on Skype/IM? Skype: mikelmaron gtalk: mikel.maron 1) We can probably get you a server somewhere .. is it ok if it's in the US? What sort of access do you need? Do you have a domain? Any server would be very useful. We don't have a domain at the moment. Perhaps openstreetmap.org.ph can be used. @ Andre and Ahmed, is this OK? Please help get this going. 2) Mashups .. are you all collecting sources of data? Yes, mashups would be helpful. I just got a mapinfo file of the extent of flooding from Darthmouth Flood Research. I'll see what I can do with this data. I'd suggest starting a catalog on the wiki, a subpage to the Philippines project page, or subpage to the HOT page I'll start working on this one. We'd then look to pull those data sources together somehow .. perhaps through just an OpenLayers instance, or through GeoCommons (andrew turner cc'd) 3) For data collection applications, OpenStreetBugs could be stood up .. but is there widely available net access right now? This is one of the useful things I see we can do. Set-up openstreetbug interface for people to report what they need. Food , electricity, water, garbage collection, etc. After the rescue and retrieval operations, rebuilding would take a long haul. We nned to supply info to public utility operators what areas need immediate action. I can ask other people to provide summary reports of the data gathered from openstreetbug to respective utility companies. People with internet connection can help report these areas. Most of them are in the news but sadly no one is compiling all these info for utilty companies to respond strategically. Would an SMS based application be a better fit for the situation? We'd only need a PH mobile phone set up to FrontlineSMS over there, and we could set up Ushahidi anywhere This is also possible. But don't how difficult to set-up. - Original Message From: maning sambale emmanuel.samb...@gmail.com To: Mikel Maron mikel_ma...@yahoo.com Sent: Tuesday, September 29, 2009 11:59:04 PM Subject: Fwd: need help on mapping for ondoy/Kestana flood victims in Metro Manila mikel, Can the Humanitarian OSM Team, help us? cheers, maning -- Forwarded message -- From: maning sambale emmanuel.samb...@gmail.com Date: Wed, Sep 30, 2009 at 11:44 AM Subject: need help on mapping for ondoy/Kestana flood victims in Metro Manila To: osm-ph talk-ph@openstreetmap.org, osm-talk t...@openstreetmap.org Hi, In case people in the international community didn't know, the Philippines (capital and surrounding provinces) were badly hit by tropical cylcone ondoy/kestana the past week [1]. My family was affected as well, but we are OK now. Current efforts are now towards search, rescue and relief. As a mapping community I feel we need to do something and contribute. We need to document whatever information we can compile so that volunteers, relief workers, and government agencies can respond to the needs. The recovery efforts may take a few more weeks and we need to sustain activities to restore vital public utilities to affected areas. Some members of the OSM-PH has started creating webmap based on OSM to document what is currently happening on the ground [2]. I appeal to the whole OSM community to help us in this project. What we currently need are: 1. A temporary server space we can use. 2. Create mashups on related information about the disaster (osm data for Metro Manila and adjacent provinces is good enough as a map background), news feeds, location of evacuation sites, missing persons list. 3. An interface in which users can report what is happening on the ground, (I'm thinking of an openstreetbug interface) i.e. This street in unpassable due to floods. This street needs water. This street has no electricity. Too much garbage on this street please collect now. This way communities can report problems
Re: [talk-ph] Fwd: need help on mapping for ondoy/Kestana flood victims in Metro Manila
Let's take note that any solution does *not* need to have OSM data involved. We do not need to push the OSM agenda right now since this is an emergency situation. What the OSM community can do right now is to continue improving the OSM map data in the most affected areas: Marikina, Pasig, Cainta, and to a lesser degree, eastern Quezon City, Antipolo, San Mateo, Taytay, and the coastal areas of Laguna de Bay. OSM data can be just a base (GIS loadable) map to all the user-generated points. On Thu, Oct 1, 2009 at 6:59 PM, maning sambale emmanuel.samb...@gmail.comwrote: Hi, Just additional updates. I have initiated contacts with other groups on possible collaboration. It seems a lot of work has been done already by http://sites.google.com/site/ondoymanila/home. See our discussion here: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Humanitarian_OSM_Team/philippines_ondoy I don't know if there is room for us to get involve right now (my extinct says there is). Red Cross Rizal has its own webmap: http://www.mapcentral.ph/pnrc/rizalchapter/- But they are requesting if we can provide info on road accessibility (roads passable by small vehicles, truck only, speedboat, etc.) All my thoughts are in the wiki: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Humanitarian_OSM_Team/philippines_ondoy Before we implement something, we need to collectively decide what we as a group can contribute. cheers, maning On Thu, Oct 1, 2009 at 2:34 PM, maning sambale emmanuel.samb...@gmail.com wrote: Hi, I have updated the wikipage: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Humanitarian_OSM_Team/philippines_ondoy I tried to compile resources discussed in the mailinglist. Please add more ideas on how we can help. At the moment I think we should start improving data on affected areas: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Humanitarian_OSM_Team/philippines_ondoy#Data_updates cheers, maning On Thu, Oct 1, 2009 at 10:39 AM, maning sambale emmanuel.samb...@gmail.com wrote: @ michael cole Let's wait till mikel maron set-up something for us. In the meantime, please help compiling more data on which areas have been affected. On Thu, Oct 1, 2009 at 10:36 AM, Michael Cole colemic...@gmail.com wrote: How much space you need on server? Regards Michael Cole. On Thursday 01 October 2009 9:33:56 am maning sambale wrote: Hi, Just got back online. On Wed, Sep 30, 2009 at 9:45 PM, Mikel Maron mikel_ma...@yahoo.com wrote: Are you on Skype/IM? Skype: mikelmaron gtalk: mikel.maron 1) We can probably get you a server somewhere .. is it ok if it's in the US? What sort of access do you need? Do you have a domain? Any server would be very useful. We don't have a domain at the moment. Perhaps openstreetmap.org.ph can be used. @ Andre and Ahmed, is this OK? Please help get this going. 2) Mashups .. are you all collecting sources of data? Yes, mashups would be helpful. I just got a mapinfo file of the extent of flooding from Darthmouth Flood Research. I'll see what I can do with this data. I'd suggest starting a catalog on the wiki, a subpage to the Philippines project page, or subpage to the HOT page I'll start working on this one. We'd then look to pull those data sources together somehow .. perhaps through just an OpenLayers instance, or through GeoCommons (andrew turner cc'd) 3) For data collection applications, OpenStreetBugs could be stood up .. but is there widely available net access right now? This is one of the useful things I see we can do. Set-up openstreetbug interface for people to report what they need. Food , electricity, water, garbage collection, etc. After the rescue and retrieval operations, rebuilding would take a long haul. We nned to supply info to public utility operators what areas need immediate action. I can ask other people to provide summary reports of the data gathered from openstreetbug to respective utility companies. People with internet connection can help report these areas. Most of them are in the news but sadly no one is compiling all these info for utilty companies to respond strategically. Would an SMS based application be a better fit for the situation? We'd only need a PH mobile phone set up to FrontlineSMS over there, and we could set up Ushahidi anywhere This is also possible. But don't how difficult to set-up. - Original Message From: maning sambale emmanuel.samb...@gmail.com To: Mikel Maron mikel_ma...@yahoo.com Sent: Tuesday, September 29, 2009 11:59:04 PM Subject: Fwd: need help on mapping for ondoy/Kestana flood victims in Metro Manila mikel, Can the Humanitarian OSM Team, help us? cheers, maning -- Forwarded message -- From: maning sambale emmanuel.samb...@gmail.com Date: Wed, Sep 30, 2009 at 11:44 AM Subject: need
Re: [talk-ph] Fwd: need help on mapping for ondoy/Kestana flood victims in Metro Manila
On Thu, Oct 1, 2009 at 8:59 PM, Eugene Alvin Villar sea...@gmail.com wrote: Let's take note that any solution does *not* need to have OSM data involved. We do not need to push the OSM agenda right now since this is an emergency situation. Apologies, if I made such impression (probably I got too attached to the flooding experience which gave me the urged to do something about the situation), but I know OSM and what it can do. If I know about other webmapping possibilities I could have gone that route. What the OSM community can do right now is to continue improving the OSM map data in the most affected areas: Marikina, Pasig, Cainta, and to a lesser degree, eastern Quezon City, Antipolo, San Mateo, Taytay, and the coastal areas of Laguna de Bay. Which some of us is doing, including myself: http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/maning/edits OSM data can be just a base (GIS loadable) map to all the user-generated points. Yes, I agree. But please don't douse cold water to other ideas as well. On Thu, Oct 1, 2009 at 6:59 PM, maning sambale emmanuel.samb...@gmail.com wrote: Hi, Just additional updates. I have initiated contacts with other groups on possible collaboration. It seems a lot of work has been done already by http://sites.google.com/site/ondoymanila/home. See our discussion here: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Humanitarian_OSM_Team/philippines_ondoy I don't know if there is room for us to get involve right now (my extinct says there is). Red Cross Rizal has its own webmap: http://www.mapcentral.ph/pnrc/rizalchapter/- But they are requesting if we can provide info on road accessibility (roads passable by small vehicles, truck only, speedboat, etc.) All my thoughts are in the wiki: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Humanitarian_OSM_Team/philippines_ondoy Before we implement something, we need to collectively decide what we as a group can contribute. cheers, maning On Thu, Oct 1, 2009 at 2:34 PM, maning sambale emmanuel.samb...@gmail.com wrote: Hi, I have updated the wikipage: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Humanitarian_OSM_Team/philippines_ondoy I tried to compile resources discussed in the mailinglist. Please add more ideas on how we can help. At the moment I think we should start improving data on affected areas: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Humanitarian_OSM_Team/philippines_ondoy#Data_updates cheers, maning On Thu, Oct 1, 2009 at 10:39 AM, maning sambale emmanuel.samb...@gmail.com wrote: @ michael cole Let's wait till mikel maron set-up something for us. In the meantime, please help compiling more data on which areas have been affected. On Thu, Oct 1, 2009 at 10:36 AM, Michael Cole colemic...@gmail.com wrote: How much space you need on server? Regards Michael Cole. On Thursday 01 October 2009 9:33:56 am maning sambale wrote: Hi, Just got back online. On Wed, Sep 30, 2009 at 9:45 PM, Mikel Maron mikel_ma...@yahoo.com wrote: Are you on Skype/IM? Skype: mikelmaron gtalk: mikel.maron 1) We can probably get you a server somewhere .. is it ok if it's in the US? What sort of access do you need? Do you have a domain? Any server would be very useful. We don't have a domain at the moment. Perhaps openstreetmap.org.ph can be used. @ Andre and Ahmed, is this OK? Please help get this going. 2) Mashups .. are you all collecting sources of data? Yes, mashups would be helpful. I just got a mapinfo file of the extent of flooding from Darthmouth Flood Research. I'll see what I can do with this data. I'd suggest starting a catalog on the wiki, a subpage to the Philippines project page, or subpage to the HOT page I'll start working on this one. We'd then look to pull those data sources together somehow .. perhaps through just an OpenLayers instance, or through GeoCommons (andrew turner cc'd) 3) For data collection applications, OpenStreetBugs could be stood up .. but is there widely available net access right now? This is one of the useful things I see we can do. Set-up openstreetbug interface for people to report what they need. Food , electricity, water, garbage collection, etc. After the rescue and retrieval operations, rebuilding would take a long haul. We nned to supply info to public utility operators what areas need immediate action. I can ask other people to provide summary reports of the data gathered from openstreetbug to respective utility companies. People with internet connection can help report these areas. Most of them are in the news but sadly no one is compiling all these info for utilty companies to respond strategically. Would an SMS based application be a better fit for the situation? We'd only need a PH mobile phone set up to FrontlineSMS over there, and we could set up Ushahidi anywhere This is also possible.
[talk-ph] Fwd: Fwd: [waypointsdotph] Red Cross Needs your help
Louie called me again to request more data on reliable info on evac sites. Please provide more info and send them directly via text to louie. He lost his phone during a rescue effort. But he still using the same number. message sent to waypointsdotph ... forwarding it to you guys as maybe even if you can not get the coordinates via GPS, if you know of such evacuation centers, maybe you can approximate the coordinates from maps or from our own OSM data. ed -- Forwarded message -- From: lrgalvez2000 lrgal...@pldtdsl.net Date: Tue, Sep 29, 2009 at 8:43 AM Subject: [waypointsdotph] Red Cross Needs your help To: waypointsdo...@yahoogroups.com Hi guys! I'm Louie Galvez and I'm one of the Directors of the Red Cross Rizal Chapter. We are in need of the waypoints of Evacuation centers. If you have one, please text the info to 0917-555 5574. Pls do not email since I won't be able to check my email. Pls text: 1) Your name, 2) Name of Evacuation Site, 3) Coordinates (in h.d format pls), 4) If possible number of families affected 5) and if they already received any assistance in the area. A Mapsource file will just be as good. Thanks Louie Visit the WaypointsDotPH website: http://www.waypoints.ph You can contribute GPS data here: www.waypoints.ph/invite.php You can follow website developments on twitter.com/waypointsdotphYahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/waypointsdotph/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/waypointsdotph/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: mailto:waypointsdotph-dig...@yahoogroups.com mailto:waypointsdotph-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: waypointsdotph-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ -- website administrator: - www.waypoints.ph - reeflife.eppgarcia.com PADI Divemaster #491048 ___ talk-ph mailing list talk-ph@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ph -- cheers, maning -- Freedom is still the most radical idea of all -N.Branden wiki: http://esambale.wikispaces.com/ blog: http://epsg4253.wordpress.com/ -- ___ talk-ph mailing list talk-ph@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ph
Re: [talk-ph] Fwd: need help on mapping for ondoy/Kestana flood victims in Metro Manila
As requested, I've set up an OpenStreetBugs instance for collecting reports in the Phillipines If anyone wants to work on the code, contacting me directly, and I can give you credentials to access the site. http://osb.maps.jsintl.org/ I totally agree that we don't have an OSM agenda. If there's places where OSM tech can help, great. Generally we have an awesome community spirit, so we can pitch on whatever project is making moves. That said, happy to try and install other pieces of software if needed. -Mikel From: Eugene Alvin Villar sea...@gmail.com To: maning sambale emmanuel.samb...@gmail.com Cc: osm-ph talk-ph@openstreetmap.org Sent: Thursday, October 1, 2009 8:59:56 AM Subject: Re: [talk-ph] Fwd: need help on mapping for ondoy/Kestana flood victims in Metro Manila Let's take note that any solution does *not* need to have OSM data involved. We do not need to push the OSM agenda right now since this is an emergency situation. What the OSM community can do right now is to continue improving the OSM map data in the most affected areas: Marikina, Pasig, Cainta, and to a lesser degree, eastern Quezon City, Antipolo, San Mateo, Taytay, and the coastal areas of Laguna de Bay. OSM data can be just a base (GIS loadable) map to all the user-generated points. On Thu, Oct 1, 2009 at 6:59 PM, maning sambale emmanuel.samb...@gmail.com wrote: Hi, Just additional updates. I have initiated contacts with other groups on possible collaboration. It seems a lot of work has been done already by http://sites.google.com/site/ondoymanila/home. See our discussion here: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Humanitarian_OSM_Team/philippines_ondoy I don't know if there is room for us to get involve right now (my extinct says there is). Red Cross Rizal has its own webmap: http://www.mapcentral.ph/pnrc/rizalchapter/- But they are requesting if we can provide info on road accessibility (roads passable by small vehicles, truck only, speedboat, etc.) All my thoughts are in the wiki: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Humanitarian_OSM_Team/philippines_ondoy Before we implement something, we need to collectively decide what we as a group can contribute. cheers, maning On Thu, Oct 1, 2009 at 2:34 PM, maning sambale emmanuel.samb...@gmail.com wrote: Hi, I have updated the wikipage: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Humanitarian_OSM_Team/philippines_ondoy I tried to compile resources discussed in the mailinglist. Please add more ideas on how we can help. At the moment I think we should start improving data on affected areas: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Humanitarian_OSM_Team/philippines_ondoy#Data_updates cheers, maning On Thu, Oct 1, 2009 at 10:39 AM, maning sambale emmanuel.samb...@gmail.com wrote: @ michael cole Let's wait till mikel maron set-up something for us. In the meantime, please help compiling more data on which areas have been affected. On Thu, Oct 1, 2009 at 10:36 AM, Michael Cole colemic...@gmail.com wrote: How much space you need on server? Regards Michael Cole. On Thursday 01 October 2009 9:33:56 am maning sambale wrote: Hi, Just got back online. On Wed, Sep 30, 2009 at 9:45 PM, Mikel Maron mikel_ma...@yahoo.com wrote: Are you on Skype/IM? Skype: mikelmaron gtalk: mikel.maron 1) We can probably get you a server somewhere .. is it ok if it's in the US? What sort of access do you need? Do you have a domain? Any server would be very useful. We don't have a domain at the moment. Perhaps openstreetmap.org.ph can be used. @ Andre and Ahmed, is this OK? Please help get this going. 2) Mashups .. are you all collecting sources of data? Yes, mashups would be helpful. I just got a mapinfo file of the extent of flooding from Darthmouth Flood Research. I'll see what I can do with this data. I'd suggest starting a catalog on the wiki, a subpage to the Philippines project page, or subpage to the HOT page I'll start working on this one. We'd then look to pull those data sources together somehow .. perhaps through just an OpenLayers instance, or through GeoCommons (andrew turner cc'd) 3) For data collection applications, OpenStreetBugs could be stood up .. but is there widely available net access right now? This is one of the useful things I see we can do. Set-up openstreetbug interface for people to report what they need. Food , electricity, water, garbage collection, etc. After the rescue and retrieval operations, rebuilding would take a long haul. We nned to supply info to public utility operators what areas need immediate action. I can ask other people to provide summary reports of the data gathered from openstreetbug to respective utility companies. People with internet connection can help report these areas. Most of them are in the news but sadly no one is compiling all these info for utilty companies to respond strategically.
Re: [talk-ph] Fwd: need help on mapping for ondoy/Kestana flood victims in Metro Manila
It's totally possible .. that's just an OpenLayers instance, in the index.html of the site. Anyone want to configure openlayers? If no one steps up, I can try to add the KML from ondoymanila later on today. Shapefiles .. can that be converted to something like KML, GeoRSS, or GeoJSON? - Original Message From: maning sambale emmanuel.samb...@gmail.com To: Mikel Maron mikel_ma...@yahoo.com; osm-ph talk-ph@openstreetmap.org Sent: Thursday, October 1, 2009 10:03:36 AM Subject: Re: [talk-ph] Fwd: need help on mapping for ondoy/Kestana flood victims in Metro Manila Thanks! Is it possible to add more layers? Maybe we can incorporate the KML generated by: http://sites.google.com/site/ondoymanila/home I also have a shapefile showing polygon provided by unosat. On Thu, Oct 1, 2009 at 9:56 PM, Mikel Maron mikel_ma...@yahoo.com wrote: As requested, I've set up an OpenStreetBugs instance for collecting reports in the Phillipines If anyone wants to work on the code, contacting me directly, and I can give you credentials to access the site. http://osb.maps.jsintl.org/ I totally agree that we don't have an OSM agenda. If there's places where OSM tech can help, great. Generally we have an awesome community spirit, so we can pitch on whatever project is making moves. That said, happy to try and install other pieces of software if needed. -Mikel From: Eugene Alvin Villar sea...@gmail.com To: maning sambale emmanuel.samb...@gmail.com Cc: osm-ph talk-ph@openstreetmap.org Sent: Thursday, October 1, 2009 8:59:56 AM Subject: Re: [talk-ph] Fwd: need help on mapping for ondoy/Kestana flood victims in Metro Manila Let's take note that any solution does *not* need to have OSM data involved. We do not need to push the OSM agenda right now since this is an emergency situation. What the OSM community can do right now is to continue improving the OSM map data in the most affected areas: Marikina, Pasig, Cainta, and to a lesser degree, eastern Quezon City, Antipolo, San Mateo, Taytay, and the coastal areas of Laguna de Bay. OSM data can be just a base (GIS loadable) map to all the user-generated points. On Thu, Oct 1, 2009 at 6:59 PM, maning sambale emmanuel.samb...@gmail.com wrote: Hi, Just additional updates. I have initiated contacts with other groups on possible collaboration. It seems a lot of work has been done already by http://sites.google.com/site/ondoymanila/home. See our discussion here: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Humanitarian_OSM_Team/philippines_ondoy I don't know if there is room for us to get involve right now (my extinct says there is). Red Cross Rizal has its own webmap: http://www.mapcentral.ph/pnrc/rizalchapter/- But they are requesting if we can provide info on road accessibility (roads passable by small vehicles, truck only, speedboat, etc.) All my thoughts are in the wiki: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Humanitarian_OSM_Team/philippines_ondoy Before we implement something, we need to collectively decide what we as a group can contribute. cheers, maning On Thu, Oct 1, 2009 at 2:34 PM, maning sambale emmanuel.samb...@gmail.com wrote: Hi, I have updated the wikipage: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Humanitarian_OSM_Team/philippines_ondoy I tried to compile resources discussed in the mailinglist. Please add more ideas on how we can help. At the moment I think we should start improving data on affected areas: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Humanitarian_OSM_Team/philippines_ondoy#Data_updates cheers, maning On Thu, Oct 1, 2009 at 10:39 AM, maning sambale emmanuel.samb...@gmail.com wrote: @ michael cole Let's wait till mikel maron set-up something for us. In the meantime, please help compiling more data on which areas have been affected. On Thu, Oct 1, 2009 at 10:36 AM, Michael Cole colemic...@gmail.com wrote: How much space you need on server? Regards Michael Cole. On Thursday 01 October 2009 9:33:56 am maning sambale wrote: Hi, Just got back online. On Wed, Sep 30, 2009 at 9:45 PM, Mikel Maron mikel_ma...@yahoo.com wrote: Are you on Skype/IM? Skype: mikelmaron gtalk: mikel.maron 1) We can probably get you a server somewhere .. is it ok if it's in the US? What sort of access do you need? Do you have a domain? Any server would be very useful. We don't have a domain at the moment. Perhaps openstreetmap.org.ph can be used. @ Andre and Ahmed, is this OK? Please help get this going. 2) Mashups .. are you all collecting sources of data? Yes, mashups would be helpful. I just got a mapinfo file of the extent of flooding from Darthmouth Flood Research. I'll see what I can do with this data. I'd suggest starting a catalog on the wiki, a subpage to the Philippines project page, or subpage to the HOT page I'll start working on this one.
Re: [talk-ph] Fwd: need help on mapping for ondoy/Kestana flood victims in Metro Manila
On Thu, Oct 1, 2009 at 10:12 PM, Mikel Maron mikel_ma...@yahoo.com wrote: It's totally possible .. that's just an OpenLayers instance, in the index.html of the site. Anyone want to configure openlayers? If no one steps up, I can try to add the KML from ondoymanila later on today. The ondoymanila kml is very large would be best to limit number given a specific zoom level Shapefiles .. can that be converted to something like KML, GeoRSS, or GeoJSON? OK I'll send you the KML of flood maps Please send me some credentials so that I can edit the html at the very least. - Original Message From: maning sambale emmanuel.samb...@gmail.com To: Mikel Maron mikel_ma...@yahoo.com; osm-ph talk-ph@openstreetmap.org Sent: Thursday, October 1, 2009 10:03:36 AM Subject: Re: [talk-ph] Fwd: need help on mapping for ondoy/Kestana flood victims in Metro Manila Thanks! Is it possible to add more layers? Maybe we can incorporate the KML generated by: http://sites.google.com/site/ondoymanila/home I also have a shapefile showing polygon provided by unosat. On Thu, Oct 1, 2009 at 9:56 PM, Mikel Maron mikel_ma...@yahoo.com wrote: As requested, I've set up an OpenStreetBugs instance for collecting reports in the Phillipines If anyone wants to work on the code, contacting me directly, and I can give you credentials to access the site. http://osb.maps.jsintl.org/ I totally agree that we don't have an OSM agenda. If there's places where OSM tech can help, great. Generally we have an awesome community spirit, so we can pitch on whatever project is making moves. That said, happy to try and install other pieces of software if needed. -Mikel From: Eugene Alvin Villar sea...@gmail.com To: maning sambale emmanuel.samb...@gmail.com Cc: osm-ph talk-ph@openstreetmap.org Sent: Thursday, October 1, 2009 8:59:56 AM Subject: Re: [talk-ph] Fwd: need help on mapping for ondoy/Kestana flood victims in Metro Manila Let's take note that any solution does *not* need to have OSM data involved. We do not need to push the OSM agenda right now since this is an emergency situation. What the OSM community can do right now is to continue improving the OSM map data in the most affected areas: Marikina, Pasig, Cainta, and to a lesser degree, eastern Quezon City, Antipolo, San Mateo, Taytay, and the coastal areas of Laguna de Bay. OSM data can be just a base (GIS loadable) map to all the user-generated points. On Thu, Oct 1, 2009 at 6:59 PM, maning sambale emmanuel.samb...@gmail.com wrote: Hi, Just additional updates. I have initiated contacts with other groups on possible collaboration. It seems a lot of work has been done already by http://sites.google.com/site/ondoymanila/home. See our discussion here: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Humanitarian_OSM_Team/philippines_ondoy I don't know if there is room for us to get involve right now (my extinct says there is). Red Cross Rizal has its own webmap: http://www.mapcentral.ph/pnrc/rizalchapter/- But they are requesting if we can provide info on road accessibility (roads passable by small vehicles, truck only, speedboat, etc.) All my thoughts are in the wiki: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Humanitarian_OSM_Team/philippines_ondoy Before we implement something, we need to collectively decide what we as a group can contribute. cheers, maning On Thu, Oct 1, 2009 at 2:34 PM, maning sambale emmanuel.samb...@gmail.com wrote: Hi, I have updated the wikipage: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Humanitarian_OSM_Team/philippines_ondoy I tried to compile resources discussed in the mailinglist. Please add more ideas on how we can help. At the moment I think we should start improving data on affected areas: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Humanitarian_OSM_Team/philippines_ondoy#Data_updates cheers, maning On Thu, Oct 1, 2009 at 10:39 AM, maning sambale emmanuel.samb...@gmail.com wrote: @ michael cole Let's wait till mikel maron set-up something for us. In the meantime, please help compiling more data on which areas have been affected. On Thu, Oct 1, 2009 at 10:36 AM, Michael Cole colemic...@gmail.com wrote: How much space you need on server? Regards Michael Cole. On Thursday 01 October 2009 9:33:56 am maning sambale wrote: Hi, Just got back online. On Wed, Sep 30, 2009 at 9:45 PM, Mikel Maron mikel_ma...@yahoo.com wrote: Are you on Skype/IM? Skype: mikelmaron gtalk: mikel.maron 1) We can probably get you a server somewhere .. is it ok if it's in the US? What sort of access do you need? Do you have a domain? Any server would be very useful. We don't have a domain at the moment. Perhaps openstreetmap.org.ph can be used. @ Andre and Ahmed, is this OK? Please help get this going. 2) Mashups .. are you all collecting sources of data? Yes, mashups would be helpful.
[talk-ph] Ondoy/Kestana flood victims in Metro Manila
First of all, I'm happy all of you are ok. It might be a little off topic here, but I want to share some links to/from a typhoon information site I discovered several years ago : http://www.typhoon2000.ph/ There is another typhoon most probably passing north of Luzon : http://www.typhoon2000.ph/activetrack.gif I really hope it will not bring too much rain this weekend :-( Some sat images of Ondoy rainfall : http://www.eorc.jaxa.jp/TRMM/NRTtyphoon/ts0917W_e.htm Cheers, Totor ___ talk-ph mailing list talk-ph@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ph
Re: [talk-ph] Fwd: need help on mapping for ondoy/Kestana flood victims in Metro Manila
I have tried looking at the Sahana and the Google Site efforts. The Sahana software isn't very user friendly while the existing data in the Google Site effort doesn't seem to get updated. I'm actually at a loss on how to help with their efforts. I'm also not sure if both groups have tried coordinating with each other. Anyway, I've added the Google landing page for ondoy in the wiki: http://www.google.com/landing/typhoon-ondoy.html It contains a webmap with 4 layers: Road condition, Donation centers, Situation map, Missing persons. * The data for the Donation centers layer seem to come from this map: http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=UTF8hl=ensource=embedmsa=0msid=114275963314561391621.000474b14dc5c675ed8b5 * The data for the Situation map and Road conditions layers seem to come from this map: http://apps.mapspread.com/a/google/ondoylocator#p3505-703 * The data for the Missing persons layer comes from the ondoymanila Google Site On Thu, Oct 1, 2009 at 9:39 PM, maning sambale emmanuel.samb...@gmail.comwrote: On Thu, Oct 1, 2009 at 8:59 PM, Eugene Alvin Villar sea...@gmail.com wrote: Let's take note that any solution does *not* need to have OSM data involved. We do not need to push the OSM agenda right now since this is an emergency situation. Apologies, if I made such impression (probably I got too attached to the flooding experience which gave me the urged to do something about the situation), but I know OSM and what it can do. If I know about other webmapping possibilities I could have gone that route. What the OSM community can do right now is to continue improving the OSM map data in the most affected areas: Marikina, Pasig, Cainta, and to a lesser degree, eastern Quezon City, Antipolo, San Mateo, Taytay, and the coastal areas of Laguna de Bay. Which some of us is doing, including myself: http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/maning/edits OSM data can be just a base (GIS loadable) map to all the user-generated points. Yes, I agree. But please don't douse cold water to other ideas as well. On Thu, Oct 1, 2009 at 6:59 PM, maning sambale emmanuel.samb...@gmail.com wrote: Hi, Just additional updates. I have initiated contacts with other groups on possible collaboration. It seems a lot of work has been done already by http://sites.google.com/site/ondoymanila/home. See our discussion here: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Humanitarian_OSM_Team/philippines_ondoy I don't know if there is room for us to get involve right now (my extinct says there is). Red Cross Rizal has its own webmap: http://www.mapcentral.ph/pnrc/rizalchapter/- But they are requesting if we can provide info on road accessibility (roads passable by small vehicles, truck only, speedboat, etc.) All my thoughts are in the wiki: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Humanitarian_OSM_Team/philippines_ondoy Before we implement something, we need to collectively decide what we as a group can contribute. cheers, maning On Thu, Oct 1, 2009 at 2:34 PM, maning sambale emmanuel.samb...@gmail.com wrote: Hi, I have updated the wikipage: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Humanitarian_OSM_Team/philippines_ondoy I tried to compile resources discussed in the mailinglist. Please add more ideas on how we can help. At the moment I think we should start improving data on affected areas: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Humanitarian_OSM_Team/philippines_ondoy#Data_updates cheers, maning On Thu, Oct 1, 2009 at 10:39 AM, maning sambale emmanuel.samb...@gmail.com wrote: @ michael cole Let's wait till mikel maron set-up something for us. In the meantime, please help compiling more data on which areas have been affected. On Thu, Oct 1, 2009 at 10:36 AM, Michael Cole colemic...@gmail.com wrote: How much space you need on server? Regards Michael Cole. On Thursday 01 October 2009 9:33:56 am maning sambale wrote: Hi, Just got back online. On Wed, Sep 30, 2009 at 9:45 PM, Mikel Maron mikel_ma...@yahoo.com wrote: Are you on Skype/IM? Skype: mikelmaron gtalk: mikel.maron 1) We can probably get you a server somewhere .. is it ok if it's in the US? What sort of access do you need? Do you have a domain? Any server would be very useful. We don't have a domain at the moment. Perhaps openstreetmap.org.ph can be used. @ Andre and Ahmed, is this OK? Please help get this going. 2) Mashups .. are you all collecting sources of data? Yes, mashups would be helpful. I just got a mapinfo file of the extent of flooding from Darthmouth Flood Research. I'll see what I can do with this data. I'd suggest starting a catalog on the wiki, a subpage to the Philippines project page, or subpage to the HOT page I'll start working on this one. We'd then look to pull those
Re: [talk-ph] Fwd: need help on mapping for ondoy/Kestana flood victims in Metro Manila
Everyone please try and test. So far: bug reporting looks OK gpx export ok rss ok Would be good if: - initial zoom is metro manila - incorporate other kmls lying around - improve text in the front page (what info bugs should be added, how they can get the data, etc) - print function (I tried printing the page, no map appears.) - a separate page for rss links to a specific municipality's approximate bounding box Big thanks to Mikel. On Thu, Oct 1, 2009 at 9:56 PM, Mikel Maron mikel_ma...@yahoo.com wrote: As requested, I've set up an OpenStreetBugs instance for collecting reports in the Phillipines If anyone wants to work on the code, contacting me directly, and I can give you credentials to access the site. http://osb.maps.jsintl.org/ I totally agree that we don't have an OSM agenda. If there's places where OSM tech can help, great. Generally we have an awesome community spirit, so we can pitch on whatever project is making moves. That said, happy to try and install other pieces of software if needed. -Mikel From: Eugene Alvin Villar sea...@gmail.com To: maning sambale emmanuel.samb...@gmail.com Cc: osm-ph talk-ph@openstreetmap.org Sent: Thursday, October 1, 2009 8:59:56 AM Subject: Re: [talk-ph] Fwd: need help on mapping for ondoy/Kestana flood victims in Metro Manila Let's take note that any solution does *not* need to have OSM data involved. We do not need to push the OSM agenda right now since this is an emergency situation. What the OSM community can do right now is to continue improving the OSM map data in the most affected areas: Marikina, Pasig, Cainta, and to a lesser degree, eastern Quezon City, Antipolo, San Mateo, Taytay, and the coastal areas of Laguna de Bay. OSM data can be just a base (GIS loadable) map to all the user-generated points. On Thu, Oct 1, 2009 at 6:59 PM, maning sambale emmanuel.samb...@gmail.com wrote: Hi, Just additional updates. I have initiated contacts with other groups on possible collaboration. It seems a lot of work has been done already by http://sites.google.com/site/ondoymanila/home. See our discussion here: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Humanitarian_OSM_Team/philippines_ondoy I don't know if there is room for us to get involve right now (my extinct says there is). Red Cross Rizal has its own webmap: http://www.mapcentral.ph/pnrc/rizalchapter/- But they are requesting if we can provide info on road accessibility (roads passable by small vehicles, truck only, speedboat, etc.) All my thoughts are in the wiki: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Humanitarian_OSM_Team/philippines_ondoy Before we implement something, we need to collectively decide what we as a group can contribute. cheers, maning On Thu, Oct 1, 2009 at 2:34 PM, maning sambale emmanuel.samb...@gmail.com wrote: Hi, I have updated the wikipage: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Humanitarian_OSM_Team/philippines_ondoy I tried to compile resources discussed in the mailinglist. Please add more ideas on how we can help. At the moment I think we should start improving data on affected areas: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Humanitarian_OSM_Team/philippines_ondoy#Data_updates cheers, maning On Thu, Oct 1, 2009 at 10:39 AM, maning sambale emmanuel.samb...@gmail.com wrote: @ michael cole Let's wait till mikel maron set-up something for us. In the meantime, please help compiling more data on which areas have been affected. On Thu, Oct 1, 2009 at 10:36 AM, Michael Cole colemic...@gmail.com wrote: How much space you need on server? Regards Michael Cole. On Thursday 01 October 2009 9:33:56 am maning sambale wrote: Hi, Just got back online. On Wed, Sep 30, 2009 at 9:45 PM, Mikel Maron mikel_ma...@yahoo.com wrote: Are you on Skype/IM? Skype: mikelmaron gtalk: mikel.maron 1) We can probably get you a server somewhere .. is it ok if it's in the US? What sort of access do you need? Do you have a domain? Any server would be very useful. We don't have a domain at the moment. Perhaps openstreetmap.org.ph can be used. @ Andre and Ahmed, is this OK? Please help get this going. 2) Mashups .. are you all collecting sources of data? Yes, mashups would be helpful. I just got a mapinfo file of the extent of flooding from Darthmouth Flood Research. I'll see what I can do with this data. I'd suggest starting a catalog on the wiki, a subpage to the Philippines project page, or subpage to the HOT page I'll start working on this one. We'd then look to pull those data sources together somehow .. perhaps through just an OpenLayers instance, or through GeoCommons (andrew turner cc'd) 3) For data collection applications, OpenStreetBugs could be stood up .. but is there widely available net access right now? This is one of the useful things
Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Protection time of ODbL
Hi, Jukka Rahkonen wrote: Was the answer to my question that nobody knows how long ODbL is protecting the data and it is impossible to tell it exactly? No, I think the answer was forever. Bye Frederik ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
Re: [OSM-legal-talk] New license status
On 30/09/2009, at 1:00 AM, Matt Amos wrote: yes. but since there hasn't been any case law on what substantial means (at least in europe, yet) The reason I asked was because we had decision (Nine Network vs IceTV) from our High Court a few months ago, regarding the meaning of substantial when applied to database copyright. Not that it means anything in the rest of the world, especially since you have sui generis database rights instead in Europe, but it is interesting to see how things differ across the globe. In this case a network produce a TV guide and someone reproduced the show name and time data from it. From my understanding, it was found that it wasn't substantial because the facts aren't copyrightable by themselves, and they hadn't reproduced a substantial part of the database schema or other things that are a copyrightable part of the database. we were advised to create guidelines on what we, as a community, consider substantial. apparently this would likely be taken into account, in the absence of case law, if anything goes in front of a judge. Sounds pretty sensible, especially since substantial varies depending on whether it's in reference to copyright on the contents of the database, copyright on the database, sui generis database rights, as well as depending on jurisdiction. If you're somewhere that only the contract part is effective, then I assume it and case law would be all that there is to go on. ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
Re: [OSM-talk] SteveC should decide
Hi, Russ Nelson wrote: This is just wrong. If SteveC says that mountain=green means that first there is a mountain, and that mountain=blue means there is no mountain, then damnit, we should do it that way. Are you mad? Bye Frederik ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Flickr Now Supports OSM Tags
Hi, Eugene Alvin Villar wrote: What's so hard about standardizing on the boolean values given appropriate changes to editor presets, good wiki documentation, and a deprecation period for other boolean values? It's a kind of slippery slope situation. There is fear that once it has been proven that standardisation works for true/false values, there will be demands to standardise everything else as well. This would be positive for the users of our data in the short term because it means they would not have to interpret the data; however it would remove dynamism from the project and require mappers who want to invent something new to apply to the standardisation committee first, and we feel that this would be a severe detriment to further participation on the mapper side. OSM flourishes partly because mappers feel that they can help shape the project, and contribute what they think is important, rather than just being mechanical turks (without the payment). In the long term, standardisation would kill the project, and thus not be desirable even for our users. - Coming from the outside and not having the knowledge about OSM that we have, users can be forgiven to demand things that would ultimately destroy OSM, but it is our duty to educate them and to explain to them that they can either take OSM as it is, with some interpretation required, or they can demand that OSM change but that would, in the long run, probably mean no OSM at all. I run a small company that, among other things, sells standardised derivates of OSM data. I spend a lot of time trying to stay ahead of the game, analyse what tags people use and for what, and try and convert these into consistent and reliable values. If OSM changes from landuse=forest to russ_nelson_sees=trees because that's what mappers what to use, then I can adapt and my customers don't have to, and neither does the OSM community have to twist and turn just because some users want consistent tagging. In my eyes, this is the way to deal with standardisation - do not force it upon the mappers, but instead create a filter layer. In my case this is a commercial operation, but I have been suggesting for ages that instead of writing bots to streamline OSM data, why don't people write generic filters/standardising engines that take the chaotic OSM data as of today and produce well-ordered standardised output for people out there who cannot be bothered to keep up with OSM's tagging anarchy? It would not be too hard. And I'm not saying this because of my business (until now, keeping up with changes and doing the standardisation takes more work than I get paid for it so I would benefit from OSM itself being standardised); I truly believe that the way things work in OSM, with standards being un-enforceable and people constantly deviating from them (even if there is a certain base consensus on many things) is the only way it *can* work without degrading into some kind of Google Map Maker that does not look for project members, but for worker ants. Bye Frederik ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Flickr Now Supports OSM Tags
When I say 'should', I mean 'should' in the sense of 'should if they want to make the widest use of data possible'. Obviously, there's a trade off between the amount of time/effort it takes to support more tags, and the extra data this gives you. In the case of yes/no vs true/false vs 1/0, I'm not sure how widespread the second two variations are (anecdotally, I rarely see them when editing the map), but on the other hand it's relatively trivial to add support for them. (although there's a third factor in play here, which is the amount of time and effort it takes to find out about the tag variations, and their various distributions, which is where we failed Aaron). The old maxim of be conservative in what you produce, be liberal in what you accept comes to mind here. And whilst there has always been an argument that being conservative in what you accept encourages (or even forces) people to be conservative in what they produce, this rarely wins out - mainly because consumers/renderers have more of an obligation to their users (the consumers) than to producers. We can see how this has played out in the browser wars, where all browsers now accept tag soup, and the focus in now on standardising the interpretation of the soup (HTML5) rather than enforcing a strict adherance to the standards (XHTML4). Of course, for OSM the maxim should probably be be liberal in what you accept, be liberal in what you produce, but with a community consensus where possible. And so far, this seems to more or less work, right? We've clearly got a way to go in communicating the consensus, and in giving guidelines to data-users, as this thread shows, but that's just a matter of incremental improvements. Frankie PS I'm off to go mapping with oneway=ja and building=kittens... ;-) On 30/09/2009, Dave F. dave...@madasafish.com wrote: Frederik Ramm wrote: Hi, Dave F. wrote: Who, within OSM in their right sense of mind, would object to being forced to use just Yes/No. I mean it's just an on/off switch! Says who? Err... I do. Could you expand on why you might think otherwise? Which tag were you talking about that you thought was simply a yes/no option? Hi I wasn't talking about a specific tag just their values. When I said Who would object to being forced to use just Yes/No I meant in comparison with True/False, 1/0; /not /totally exclusive to Y/N. For the example of building=, I am aware that mappers may also define their own values, which I agree with. I disagree with Frankie that ...renderers should probably accept all three forms though. I don't understand why others should have to spend time sorting out OSM's vagaries purely because we can't decide. Cheers Dave F. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk -- Frankie Roberto Experience Designer, Rattle 0114 2706977 http://www.rattlecentral.com ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Flickr Now Supports OSM Tags
2009/10/1 Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org: It's a kind of slippery slope situation. There is fear that once it has been proven that standardisation works for true/false values, there will be demands to standardise everything else as well. I think you are exagurating things a little, however a little standarisation would go a long way, although you have a vested interest in keeping the status quo because you've built a commercial model around it. This would be positive for the users of our data in the short term because it means they would not have to interpret the data; however it would remove dynamism from the project and require mappers who want to invent something new to apply to the standardisation committee first, What exactly would be wrong with doing that exactly? and we feel that this would be a severe detriment to further participation on the mapper side. OSM flourishes partly because mappers feel that they can help shape the project, and contribute what they think is important, rather than just being mechanical turks (without the payment). I think you are over stating the importance of people feeling they can contribute by using any tags they please, I keep coming back to the example of using some random names to describe road types, this wouldn't do anyone any good, and there is a very good reason there is a limited number of highway tags for highway types. In the long term, standardisation would kill the project, and thus not I disagree, it hasn't killed the linux project, and in fact standardisation helps things to flourish more often than not because things can work together harmouniously, imagine what web browsers would be like without standards, it would be an even bigger, uglier mess than we have today. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Flickr Now Supports OSM Tags
On Thu, Oct 1, 2009 at 12:58 AM, Dave F. dave...@madasafish.com wrote: Richard Fairhurst wrote: Elizabeth Dodd wrote: For starters if the maintainers of JOSM Potlatch and Merkaartor encouraged the use of yes/no it would be a way forward. Potlatch does indeed have 'yes' (rather than 'true' or '1') in its presets and autocomplete. cheers Richard Will v2.0 disallow user input altogether be completely based on 'click to select' presets? Not a chance in hell. Click Advanced at the bottom of the tags section. Oh yes, raw tag entry FTW! for when you damn well know the editor is wrong. Plus the presets (they're not really presets now, but property editors) are completely configurable[1], and (once I put the pref box in) swappable at run time. Oh, and the oneway preset i currently have happily recognises 1=true=yes/0=false=no/reverse=-1. It's only when you set it that it will standardise to yes/no/-1. Dave [1] http://trac.openstreetmap.org/browser/applications/editors/potlatch2/resources/map_features.xml ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Google Wants to Map Indoors, Too
2009/10/1 Alice Kaerast kaer...@qvox.org: Hang on, it's October 1st not April 1st! In all seriousness though they won't be giving you their floorplans because it's a terrorist risk rather than the fact they're giving Google exclusive access. The slashdot subject was misleading, Google isn't getting them actually, some third party is, Micello, maybe they're running their own WMS server to supplement google imagery? ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Protection time of ODbL
Hi, Was the answer to my question that nobody knows how long ODbL is protecting the data and it is impossible to tell it exactly? -Jukka Rahkonen- ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-t...@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
Re: [OSM-talk] nginx and mod_tile
NL is running on Cherokee, we have a 404 script that communicates with renderd. I guess this can be used by lighttpd and nginx too. Stefan Op 1 okt 2009 om 03:58 heeft John Smith deltafoxtrot...@gmail.com het volgende geschreven:\ 2009/10/1 Kenneth Gonsalves law...@au-kbc.org: hi, I have been serving osm using apache and mod_tile. Now I have shifted to nginx as it is much faster and uses less memory - any idea how to serve osm using nginx? I'd love to know too, I use lighttpd normally, but for the tile server I still have to use apache because I haven't been able to come up with a better solution unless I wanted to pre-render the world. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Flickr Now Supports OSM Tags
On Thu, Oct 1, 2009 at 6:28 AM, Eugene Alvin Villar sea...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Oct 1, 2009 at 12:02 PM, Apollinaris Schoell ascho...@gmail.com wrote: On 30 Sep 2009, at 20:46 , Russ Nelson wrote: No, he is a leader because we respect him. THAT is how leaders in an anarchic state arise. yes he is a leader and as such deserves respect. he should lead some useful and intelligent projects and don't loose a word about this childish 1/0/yes/no/true/false discussions. a consumer of the data has to do a bit more work but this is a small fee for free access to an amazing database. The discussion is only childish if the tone of the discussion is childish. But if people discuss this issue in a good manner, then it isn't childish. If we can remove that small fee, why not do it? What's so hard about standardizing on the boolean values given appropriate changes to editor presets, good wiki documentation, and a deprecation period for other boolean values? what's so hard? The hard part is figuring out what the hell any of this actually has to do with the thread topic. Amazingly tag-standardisation is not even /relevant/ to the original problem pointed out. Oh well... wouldn't be the internet if someone wasn't wrong on it. Dave ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] nginx and mod_tile
2009/10/1 Stefan de Konink ste...@konink.de: NL is running on Cherokee, we have a 404 script that communicates with renderd. I guess this can be used by lighttpd and nginx too. URL? I tried to code something similar like this in php before but didn't get very far at the time, can your script be run as a fastcgi script? If it can this would have similar performance as mod_tile... ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Breach of Copyright?
And as I said before I am 99.9% certain that this is not breach of copyright in the UK either. As I said before this is identical to the case where someone plans a route using an atlas then uploads their traces to OSM, using their own observations to tag the roads, not the atlas. (Apologies for top posting, it's my mail client) Nick Dave F. dave...@madasafish.com Sent by: talk-boun...@openstreetmap.org 01/10/2009 01:45 To Russ Nelson nel...@crynwr.com cc OSM Talk talk@openstreetmap.org Subject Re: [OSM-talk] Breach of Copyright? Russ Nelson wrote: Dave F. writes: I look for /indications /of rights of way on my OS map. Initially this is the only evidence I have. If I see it's not indicated in OSM I go walk it. I'm pretty certain I'm not the only one who does this. Is this a breach of copyright? Not in the US. Not in any way, not at all. Copyright in the US protects creative expression, not information. If something is a representation of a fact, the creative elements of that representation are copyrightable. The fact is not copyrightable. You are using the OSM maps in a manner which is non-infringing under US law. Further, under US law, if there is only one way to express something, you cannot claim a copyright on it, even if you can show that you exercised creativity in creating it. Now, you *can* claim a copyright on a collection of facts, but the copyright applies to the collection, not the individual facts. Your creativity was applied to the choice of which facts to include in the collection. Obviously you are in the UK making reference to a work under UK copyright, so none of this applies to you. I merely put this here so that people in the US understand that they CAN do what you are doing. Oh to live in in the land of the free. :-) Thanks for your reply. Dave F. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] SteveC should decide
On Wed, 30 Sep 2009 23:14:00 -0400, Russ Nelson wrote: If we don't do that, then we'll get what we deserve: no leadership. Yes please, this project needs an active leader. There is currently too much undecided topics. As a reference please look how Fedora Project [1] is doing things. There is a project leader (that I obviously think should be SteveC) and there is Fedora Board [2] The board is composed of community elected members, and all members have a vote on who gets to be a Board member. People who are running for elections put up a page on the wiki saying what they do for the project, and what is their goal to do when they become members of Board. Board votes on all decisions and their decisions are final, but represent the consensus of most users. Is there anything similar currently for OpenStreetMap project? [1] http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/ [2] http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Board -- pratite me na twitteru - www.twitter.com/valentt http://kernelreloaded.blog385.com/ linux, blog, anime, spirituality, windsurf, wireless registered as user #367004 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org. ICQ: 2125241, Skype: valent.turkovic ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] SteveC should decide
On Thu, 01 Oct 2009 09:03:38 +0200, Frederik Ramm wrote: Are you mad? Bye Frederik You are taking this out of context, and you obviously missed the point. -- pratite me na twitteru - www.twitter.com/valentt http://kernelreloaded.blog385.com/ linux, blog, anime, spirituality, windsurf, wireless registered as user #367004 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org. ICQ: 2125241, Skype: valent.turkovic ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] nginx and mod_tile
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA512 John Smith schreef: 2009/10/1 Stefan de Konink ste...@konink.de: NL is running on Cherokee, we have a 404 script that communicates with renderd. I guess this can be used by lighttpd and nginx too. URL? I tried to code something similar like this in php before but didn't get very far at the time, can your script be run as a fastcgi script? If it can this would have similar performance as mod_tile... I think it was on this list before; vserver!20!document_root = /var/www/tile.openstreetmap.nl/htdocs vserver!20!error_handler = error_redir vserver!20!error_handler!404!show = 0 vserver!20!error_handler!404!url = /live/render.py This basically creates an invisible redirection if a tile doesn't exist. I really doesn't matter if it is visible. The script should get the tile one way or the other. This is our active script for that: http://mirror.openstreetmap.nl/sources/render.py And we are currently working on a modified version of renderd that allows other projections, helping out in testing, debugging and fixing is appreciated :) http://git.openstreetmap.nl/index.cgi/renderd.git/ Stefan -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2.0.11 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEYEAREKAAYFAkrEd40ACgkQYH1+F2Rqwn2ycgCggtoNLfCWa9BdEiNnEHJi/S9e VkoAnj7RvijqLrVoatYJtZ/rb0MUZ6dP =6bU7 -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] How do I connect to openstreetmap via wms so my web application can use openstreetmap as my base layer?
Thanks, For the below link I noticed that the demo outputs the tiles as an epsg of 900913 is it also possible to output as an epsg of 4326 since our data is as 4326, and if you can output as 4326 will it line up with our other data. We found that with having google maps as the base layer that it did not line up with our other data when they both outputted as 4326 but they lined up when both were 900913. John On Thu, Oct 1, 2009 at 12:18 AM, Jukka Rahkonen jukka.rahko...@mmmtike.fiwrote: John Mitchell mitchelljj98 at gmail.com writes: Hi,How do I connect to openstreetmap via wms so my web application can use openstreetmap as my base layer.Thanks,-- John J. Mitchell Hi, Try http://www.osm-wms.de/ -Jukka Rahkonen- ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk -- John J. Mitchell ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] SteveC should decide
Hi, Valent Turkovic wrote: Are you mad? You are taking this out of context, and you obviously missed the point. Not at all. Russ has called for dictatorial leadership which the project should follow even if there were absolutely nonsensical decisions. I don't know how any context could reduce the sheer stupidity of: If SteveC says that mountain=green means that first there is a mountain, and that mountain=blue means there is no mountain, then damnit, we should do it that way. If we have open issues in the community that we cannot find a good solution to, then the reason for this is not that we simply lack a good Führer who tells us what is right and what is wrong; it is because these issues are difficult and the community is perhaps divided about it. We do not need anybody to make a decision in these cases; that doesn't help at all. I can't understand how some of you seem to be yearning for a power figure that absolves you from thinking for yourselves just to make things simpler. It seems that you would prefer a wrong decision over no decision at all - but why do we need decisions at all? If there are issues where the community cannot make up their mind, can you not just live with that and arrange your technology in a way to deal with that? Do you always have to take a hammer and hit everything until it is nicely uniform? Bye Frederik ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] SteveC should decide
On Thu, 1 Oct 2009, Russ Nelson wrote: This is wrong. There are times when any project needs leadership. It's unreasonable for us to expect that every open source project leader will be willing to subject himself to ad-hominem arguments. We need to stand up for our leaders, and when they're being abused, we need to defend them. If we don't do that, then we'll get what we deserve: no leadership. *+1* ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] SteveC should decide
Russ Nelson wrote: I'm tired of this silly true/false 1/0 yes/no up/down left/right in/out fore/aft port/starboard debate/debacle. It's trivial, it's stupid, we could just as easily toss a coin as engage in any rational debate about how binary values should be expressed. This is just wrong. If SteveC says that mountain=green means that first there is a mountain, and that mountain=blue means there is no mountain, then damnit, we should do it that way. Don't debate then! Accept there's more than one true path to tagging enlightenment and get on with it! Just build yourself a list of equivalent k=v pairs and use that when you pre-process to normalise data for your application. -- Chris Jones, SUCS Admin http://sucs.org ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Clarifying and representing road markings at junctions
Picking up Ray's point that observing the back of the giveway sign is a rather indirect way of saying follow the road round to the right, the simplest/clearest is probably a relation on the through route linking the ways before/after the junction, saying this is the priority route through the junction. Maybe simply a type=priority relation, with no roles? I'd probably use this as well as marking the giveways on the junction arms (giveway=forward/backward on a node seems to express it succinctly; who knows if it'll catch on). But mebbe I should also file a Potlatch trac ticket that allows you to paste a single tag/relation from memory. I don't need to be pasting a set of 20 relations on a way that already has 19 of them. Richard ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Clarifying and representing road markings at junctions
On 30/09/2009 22:05, Roy Wallace wrote: On Wed, Sep 30, 2009 at 7:35 PM, David Earl da...@frankieandshadow.com wrote: On 30/09/2009 10:20, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: you could model it like this (see attached, colours are just indicating the ways, not highway-classes) Yes, that's also what I typically do, e.g. http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=52.596517lon=0.376144zoom=18layers=B000FTF Eek. Nice hack, but dodgy... 1) What if the road name changes *at* the junction, not just after the junction? 2) That hack just seems to change two things: a) it changes the *angle* between the intersecting ways at the junction. Is there any reason to want to do this? What exact problem does it solve? It's not a hack, it's a very reasonable representation of what's on the ground. The kerb line may be straight on one side but is usually curved opposite the junction, and many such junctions now have a build out which reinforces the curve around the corner, but even if it isn't the centre line curves around the corner, and often the give way lines as well. It shows visually which the main road is at the junction and is a good model of the physical arrangement. b) it makes a single *way* continue through the intersection. err, no. If the road has the same name around the corner it can do. If the minor but straight on road has the same name it could be a continuous way, but I would normally break it at that point, not least so the name of the minor road is clear. But where ways break is of no significance - you have to break ways at all sorts of places because of changes in the environment like speed limits, starts of bridges etc. Does this actually infer that there is no giveway instruction? Not necessarily, though there nearly always is. If so, is this documented anywhere? (I'm sure I could find examples where this is not the case) If not, then the hack *doesn't* explicitly show that the curved road continues through the intersection without interruption. I think anyone looking at it would understand the arrangement on the ground, and it does model the situation as I see it. It is very unusual indeed in the UK anyway to find a case where priority is around the corner but there is no curvature at all in the way it goes around the corner. If there really is no curve whatsoever (and I can't think of an example off hand that I've mapped in 3 years of mapping, though I'm sure there are some), then I wouldn't try to model a curve. It's not a hack, it's what's actually there to a greater or lesser extent in most such circumstances. David ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] How do I connect to openstreetmap via wms so my web application can use openstreetmap as my base layer?
Hi, Somehow I feel that you are not interested in real WMS but you mainly want tiles to be used as a background in some OpenLayers application. In that case normal, uncached WMS in not what you want. But if you want to get on-the-fly rendering with selectable layers, different projections and even user selectable styling by pointing your own SLD document then WMS is a fine alternative for the fast but dull OSM tiles. The link where WMS starts is http://services.giub.uni-bonn.de/wms?Request=GetCapabilities . There seems to be Geoserver behind the service and because it is listing all the 3912 supported projections the document is quite long. What is worse it that some WMS clients cannot handle that long SRS list. At least OpenJUMP fails because of that. -Jukka Rahkonen- John Mitchell wrote: Thanks, For the below link I noticed that the demo outputs the tiles as an epsg of 900913 is it also possible to output as an epsg of 4326 since our data is as 4326, and if you can output as 4326 will it line up with our other data. We found that with having google maps as the base layer that it did not line up with our other data when they both outputted as 4326 but they lined up when both were 900913. John On Thu, Oct 1, 2009 at 12:18 AM, Jukka Rahkonen jukka.rahko...@mmmtike.fi wrote: John Mitchell mitchelljj98 at gmail.com writes: Hi,How do I connect to openstreetmap via wms so my web application can use openstreetmap as my base layer.Thanks,-- John J. Mitchell Hi, Try http://www.osm-wms.de/ -Jukka Rahkonen- ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] SteveC should decide
On Thu, Oct 1, 2009 at 10:40 AM, Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org wrote: I can't understand how some of you seem to be yearning for a power figure that absolves you from thinking for yourselves just to make things simpler. You answered your own question: that's exactly what people want - Deus Ex Machina. That's what most people want in life - whether playing the lottery, complaints of why doesn't the government do X, I'm not a coder and so on. For all the people who can actually advance the solution, rather than just discuss the problem, I think there's an obligation to both actually get on with things, and encourage people to switch from passive (however noisy they are at not solving anything) to active, constructive participation. But that means only fighting battles you can win, and I decided about 6 months ago to ignore (or at least not rise to) the eternally pointless tagging debate. Notice, if you will, my contributions to the wiki have skyrocketed since I gave up debating on what to do with the wikifiddlers and just started fixing the problem instead. Cheers, Andy ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] nginx and mod_tile
2009/10/1 Stefan de Konink ste...@konink.de: I think it was on this list before; May have been before I joined... vserver!20!document_root = /var/www/tile.openstreetmap.nl/htdocs vserver!20!error_handler = error_redir vserver!20!error_handler!404!show = 0 vserver!20!error_handler!404!url = /live/render.py lighttpd is a little simpler... server.error-handler-404 = /render.py http://mirror.openstreetmap.nl/sources/render.py At first glance the only thing I noticed was a lack of cache headers to prevent browsers from caching. And we are currently working on a modified version of renderd that allows other projections, helping out in testing, debugging and fixing is appreciated :) Any thoughts on dynamic mapnik style sheets? ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Clarifying and representing road markings at junctions
On Thu, Oct 1, 2009 at 8:05 PM, David Earl da...@frankieandshadow.com wrote: It shows visually which the main road is at the junction and is a good model of the physical arrangement. IMHO it does not *explicitly* show the continuations of roads at the junction. And even if you do think it works visually, that is not sufficient - there are many uses for OSM data. b) it makes a single *way* continue through the intersection. err, no. If the road has the same name around the corner it can do. If the minor but straight on road has the same name it could be a continuous way, but I would normally break it at that point, not least so the name of the minor road is clear. But where ways break is of no significance - you have to break ways at all sorts of places because of changes in the environment like speed limits, starts of bridges etc. Ah, so are you saying that, in Martin's attached image, the red way and the yellow way should/could meet at the junction? If so, then IMHO it is even *less* clear that, e.g. traveling from the red to the grey way is a left turn, whereas traveling from the red way to the yellow way is uninterrupted. I think anyone looking at it would understand the arrangement on the ground, and it does model the situation as I see it. Don't be fooled - people are not the only ones that look at OSM data. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Flickr Now Supports OSM Tags
Apollinaris Schoell wrote: On 30 Sep 2009, at 20:46 , Russ Nelson wrote: Dave F. writes: Russ Nelson wrote: -1. Don't confuse anarchy with chaos. SteveC is our leader (and should behave as such by Giving Advice), but he's only our leader so far as he gives Good Advice. A leader in an anarchic state? How does that work? ;-) Exactly as I just described, although perhaps more clearly than that. SteveC has no power to force me to use 1 for true or -1 for false, or 0 for false. And yet if SteveC said folks, let's use yes and no as binary values, and not 1, 0, or -1. most people would do as he says. Not because he is forcing them, or is going to take all his marbles and go home, or is going to dismiss *...@cloudmade, or will say bad words to people. If he says only few people will even notice. if josm/potlatch use them as presets 90% will follow No, he is a leader because we respect him. THAT is how leaders in an anarchic state arise. yes he is a leader and as such deserves respect. he should lead some useful and intelligent projects and don't loose a word about this childish 1/0/yes/no/true/false discussions. a consumer of the data has to do a bit more work but this is a small fee for free access to an amazing database. I find it disappointing you think this discussion childish. As Eugene pointed out it's only the tone of the people that post that would make it so not the subject matter. I'm finding this thread a good learning experience about OSM it's mappers. Not always a positive one, I have to admit, but I can't have everything. If the consumers had to do less work then OSM would get *more* consumers. Which is half the point of the exercise, isn't it? To pass on an easily solved problem like this for others to sort out is, as I said before IMO - selfish. The expression take responsibility for your own actions doesn't appear to carry much weight around here. Cheers Dave F. Cheers Dave F. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Flickr Now Supports OSM Tags
Hi, Dave F. wrote: If the consumers had to do less work then OSM would get *more* consumers. Which is half the point of the exercise, isn't it? Stop thinking in these terms, they don't work for OSM. The data OSM has to offer has a reasonable value; depending on who the customer is, using OSM data can save them tens of thousands of whatever currency unit you like. There's a strong motivation - these users will come to OSM even if OSM isn't presented to them on a silver platter. On the other side we have the mappers who do not save, or earn, any money from OSM, and the programmers and server admins and everyone who uses their spare time to create and run OSM. If you continue talking about OSM as a product and users as customers, then you'll soon arrive at the customer is always right and we contributors will then be mere service providers. But things are just the other way round in OSM. The mapper is always right, and whether or not the user wants to use what the mapper provides, that's his choice. The user can always go for Teleatlas instead if he doesn't like what he sees. Bye Frederik ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Flickr Now Supports OSM Tags
SteveC wrote: On 30 Sep 2009, at 17:54, Dave F. wrote: SteveC wrote: On 30 Sep 2009, at 16:14, Russ Nelson wrote: SteveC writes: Yeah, OK Dave, we've got the message, you don't free-format tags. Unfortunately you're going to have to get used to it, because it is the basis of the OPENstreetmap and, in my opinion, one of the reasons it is as successful as it is. +1 -1. Don't confuse anarchy with chaos. SteveC is our leader (and should behave as such by Giving Advice), but he's only our leader so far as he gives Good Advice. It turns out I'm still allowed my opinions, and y'know given that I designed and implemented freeform tags... I think I'm allowed to promote them. Free form Tags - Good, duplicate/irrelevant data - Bad. Nuclear power - good, nuclear weapons/contamination - Bad. C'mon... freeform tags set the community free, if you have a better alternative please outline it? And by better, I mean one that on balance allows the most people to participate and generate good data. I Have. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Flickr Now Supports OSM Tags
Dave Stubbs wrote: On Thu, Oct 1, 2009 at 6:28 AM, Eugene Alvin Villar sea...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Oct 1, 2009 at 12:02 PM, Apollinaris Schoell ascho...@gmail.com wrote: On 30 Sep 2009, at 20:46 , Russ Nelson wrote: No, he is a leader because we respect him. THAT is how leaders in an anarchic state arise. yes he is a leader and as such deserves respect. he should lead some useful and intelligent projects and don't loose a word about this childish 1/0/yes/no/true/false discussions. a consumer of the data has to do a bit more work but this is a small fee for free access to an amazing database. The discussion is only childish if the tone of the discussion is childish. But if people discuss this issue in a good manner, then it isn't childish. If we can remove that small fee, why not do it? What's so hard about standardizing on the boolean values given appropriate changes to editor presets, good wiki documentation, and a deprecation period for other boolean values? what's so hard? The hard part is figuring out what the hell any of this actually has to do with the thread topic. Amazingly tag-standardisation is not even /relevant/ to the original problem pointed out. Oh well... wouldn't be the internet if someone wasn't wrong on it. Did you not read Kyle's post - 29th 15:25 Dave ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Flickr Now Supports OSM Tags
On Thu, 1 Oct 2009, Apollinaris Schoell wrote: a consumer of the data has to do a bit more work but this is a small fee for free access to an amazing database. but what does it say about us to the outside world? are we portraying a forward looking group? are we portraying an indecisive group? ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Clarifying and representing road markings at junctions
On 01/10/2009 11:47, Roy Wallace wrote: On Thu, Oct 1, 2009 at 8:05 PM, David Earl da...@frankieandshadow.com wrote: It shows visually which the main road is at the junction and is a good model of the physical arrangement. IMHO it does not *explicitly* show the continuations of roads at the junction. And even if you do think it works visually, that is not sufficient - there are many uses for OSM data. b) it makes a single *way* continue through the intersection. err, no. If the road has the same name around the corner it can do. If the minor but straight on road has the same name it could be a continuous way, but I would normally break it at that point, not least so the name of the minor road is clear. But where ways break is of no significance - you have to break ways at all sorts of places because of changes in the environment like speed limits, starts of bridges etc. Ah, so are you saying that, in Martin's attached image, the red way and the yellow way should/could meet at the junction? If so, then IMHO it is even *less* clear that, e.g. traveling from the red to the grey way is a left turn, whereas traveling from the red way to the yellow way is uninterrupted. No I was referring to the real examples I quoted. I think anyone looking at it would understand the arrangement on the ground, and it does model the situation as I see it. Don't be fooled - people are not the only ones that look at OSM data. I don't understand this at all. I am just mapping what I see on the ground. And please don't patronise, I'm well aware of the uses of OSM data and have contributed to many of them. The main road goes round a corner (and may or may not share the same name). I represent the corner even though there may be a straight kerb line on one side, when curvature exists e.g. on the opposite kerb or in the white lining. The slight curve before the side road branches off might possibly allow a bright routing algorithm to describe it more accurately. But I think there would be ambiguity here independent of any mapping, because straight on is somewhat ambiguous, especially when it's not a complete right angle turn as sometimes happens. In English I think I'd want to be told follow the road round to the left or some such in these circumstances, not a simple turn left. A T junction certainly wouldn't achieve that possibility without more information. An explicit tagging would. But in the absence of that, modelling what's on the ground goes some way. David ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Flickr Now Supports OSM Tags
Frederik Ramm wrote: Hi, Eugene Alvin Villar wrote: What's so hard about standardizing on the boolean values given appropriate changes to editor presets, good wiki documentation, and a deprecation period for other boolean values? It's a kind of slippery slope situation. There is fear that once it has been proven that standardisation works for true/false values, there will be demands to standardise everything else as well. Not *everything* just the things that people feel need changing Fear is not a good reason for the status quo. This would be positive for the users of our data in the short term because it means they would not have to interpret the data; however it would remove dynamism from the project and require mappers who want to invent something new to apply to the standardisation committee first, and we feel that this would be a severe detriment to further participation on the mapper side. OSM flourishes partly because mappers feel that they can help shape the project, and contribute what they think is important, rather than just being mechanical turks (without the payment). People would still think they would be contributing even with certain restraining guidelines. In the long term, standardisation would kill the project, and thus not be desirable even for our users. - Coming from the outside and not having the knowledge about OSM that we have I find it very disappointing you feel there is a them us situation. , users can be forgiven to demand Whoa, there. Who's demanding? Please, don't make things up. things that would ultimately destroy OSM, but it is our duty to educate them and to explain to them that they can either take OSM as it is, with some interpretation required, or they can demand that OSM change but that would, in the long run, probably mean no OSM at all. This is starting to sound like quasi religious mumbo-jumbo: 'if you do this, the sky will fall on your head' I run a small company that, among other things, sells standardised derivates of OSM data. I spend a lot of time trying to stay ahead of the game, analyse what tags people use and for what, and try and convert these into consistent and reliable values. If there were certain restrictions you'd have to spend less time. If OSM changes from landuse=forest to russ_nelson_sees=trees because that's what mappers what to use, then I can adapt and my customers don't have to, and neither does the OSM community have to twist and turn just because some users want consistent tagging. In my eyes, this is the way to deal with standardisation - do not force it upon the mappers, but instead create a filter layer. In my case this is a commercial operation, but I have been suggesting for ages that instead of writing bots to streamline OSM data, why don't people write generic filters/standardising engines that take the chaotic OSM data as of today and produce well-ordered standardised output for people out there who cannot be bothered to keep up with OSM's tagging anarchy? It would not be too hard. Isn't that just putting an artificial middle man into the equation? Wouldn't it be better to have an organised, original data? And I'm not saying this because of my business (until now, keeping up with changes and doing the standardisation takes more work than I get paid for it so I would benefit from OSM itself being standardised); I truly believe that the way things work in OSM, with standards being un-enforceable and people constantly deviating from them (even if there is a certain base consensus on many things) is the only way it *can* work without degrading into some kind of Google Map Maker that does not look for project members, but for worker ants. Bye Frederik ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Flickr Now Supports OSM Tags
On Thu, Oct 1, 2009 at 12:28 PM, Dave F. dave...@madasafish.com wrote: Dave Stubbs wrote: On Thu, Oct 1, 2009 at 6:28 AM, Eugene Alvin Villar sea...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Oct 1, 2009 at 12:02 PM, Apollinaris Schoell ascho...@gmail.com wrote: On 30 Sep 2009, at 20:46 , Russ Nelson wrote: No, he is a leader because we respect him. THAT is how leaders in an anarchic state arise. yes he is a leader and as such deserves respect. he should lead some useful and intelligent projects and don't loose a word about this childish 1/0/yes/no/true/false discussions. a consumer of the data has to do a bit more work but this is a small fee for free access to an amazing database. The discussion is only childish if the tone of the discussion is childish. But if people discuss this issue in a good manner, then it isn't childish. If we can remove that small fee, why not do it? What's so hard about standardizing on the boolean values given appropriate changes to editor presets, good wiki documentation, and a deprecation period for other boolean values? what's so hard? The hard part is figuring out what the hell any of this actually has to do with the thread topic. Amazingly tag-standardisation is not even /relevant/ to the original problem pointed out. Oh well... wouldn't be the internet if someone wasn't wrong on it. Did you not read Kyle's post - 29th 15:25 Yes. The original problem pointed out that I was referring to was: It works for building=yes, but not building=true. Dave ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Flickr Now Supports OSM Tags
Hi, Dave F. wrote: I find it very disappointing you feel there is a them us situation. Yes, very disappointing but not every human being on earth happens to have an OSM account. We're working on it. Isn't that just putting an artificial middle man into the equation? The cool thing about this is that users can control what kind of middle man they want. Wouldn't it be better to have an organised, original data? Not in my eyes. If users come to us and say: Hey, we'd like to have only 6 road categories not 18 then, instead of removing information in our database to be compliant, we simply give them a set of rules for their artificial middle man that gives them 6 road categories, and we don't even have to change all our editors and re-educate all our mappers. Best of both worlds, innit? Bye Frederik ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Google Wants to Map Indoors, Too
John Smith wrote: I emailed westfields and centro, both are operators of shopping centres, about getting access to their floor plans in the various shopping centres they operate to add to OSM, unfortunately I received no reply at the time, maybe this is why. - An anonymous reader writes Google maps are getting extended indoors next month with a new app called Micello that takes over where conventional navigators leave off — mapping your route inside of buildings, malls, convention centers and other points of interest. You don't get a 'you are here' blinking dot yet — but they do promise to add one next year using WiFi triangulation. At the introduction next month, Micello will only work in California, but they plan to expand to other major US cities during 2010. http://news.slashdot.org/story/09/09/30/2052258/Google-Wants-to-Map-Indoors-Too?from=rss Fantastic! Does that mean I won't get depression from getting lost in Ikea of a weekend? Dave F. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
[OSM-talk] Please
...can we take the back-and-forths to IRC. talk@ is the most important communication channel for OSM and it's very rapidly becoming unreadable - all the I said, no you said, no I meant, no you meant. I've spoken to a handful of people in the last few days who have unsubscribed from talk@ as a result of this. We're a friendly bunch on IRC, honest. Either that, or let's have a tagging list. But not here. Richard ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] SteveC should decide
* Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org [2009-10-01 11:50]: If we have open issues in the community that we cannot find a good solution to, then the reason for this is not that we simply lack a good Führer who tells us what is right and what is wrong; it is because these issues are difficult and the community is perhaps divided about it. We do not need anybody to make a decision in these cases; that doesn't help at all. Dear Frederik, thank you very much for these brave words. +1 Alex -- Alex Pleiner plei...@zeitform.de zeitform Internet Dienste OHG Tel./Fax: +49 (0) 6151 155-635 / -634 Fraunhoferstraße 5 PGP S/MIME: http://key.zeitform.de/ap 64283 Darmstadt, Germany Reg: HRA 6898 (Amtsgericht Darmstadt) http://www.zeitform.de ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Overlay showing wikipedia links
2009/9/30 Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason ava...@gmail.com: On Wed, Sep 30, 2009 at 1:49 PM, andrzej zaborowski balr...@gmail.com wrote: It's at http://www.openstreetmap.pl/wp (see caveats below). Neat. * Blue dots are wikipedia links, grey dots are other External Links (website= and url= tags). The wikipedia= value syntax is two-letter-code:Title or Title alone for English wikipedia. It doesn't matter which wikipedia language you link to, the page is always displayed in your chosen language, if available. We have a lot of wikipedia:code=title form in our database. That seems to be the recommended practice so perhaps you should support that too: Good idea, I added the support now. Also added better support for wikipedia=full-URL. If there are other tags that people use for external links, let me know. On one hand, there was a discussion here on the list and on irc at one point about this form of tagging and it was argued that wikipedia:code=Title was good for when you want to have the given language use a different wikipedia page, in addition to a generic link in wikipedia=. Or that it's easier to support technically. I never understood these arguments and want to encourage using a single wikipedia= tag. For the record here are the statistics of the current tag usage in the tiles (IOW no US): 121098 wikipedia= tags 43429 of the above link to non-English wikipedias (i.e. wikipedia=code:Title) 35996 wikipedia:code= tags 28184 url= tags Cheers ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Flickr Now Supports OSM Tags
Dave Stubbs wrote: On Thu, Oct 1, 2009 at 12:28 PM, Dave F. dave...@madasafish.com wrote: Dave Stubbs wrote: On Thu, Oct 1, 2009 at 6:28 AM, Eugene Alvin Villar sea...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Oct 1, 2009 at 12:02 PM, Apollinaris Schoell ascho...@gmail.com wrote: On 30 Sep 2009, at 20:46 , Russ Nelson wrote: No, he is a leader because we respect him. THAT is how leaders in an anarchic state arise. yes he is a leader and as such deserves respect. he should lead some useful and intelligent projects and don't loose a word about this childish 1/0/yes/no/true/false discussions. a consumer of the data has to do a bit more work but this is a small fee for free access to an amazing database. The discussion is only childish if the tone of the discussion is childish. But if people discuss this issue in a good manner, then it isn't childish. If we can remove that small fee, why not do it? What's so hard about standardizing on the boolean values given appropriate changes to editor presets, good wiki documentation, and a deprecation period for other boolean values? what's so hard? The hard part is figuring out what the hell any of this actually has to do with the thread topic. Amazingly tag-standardisation is not even /relevant/ to the original problem pointed out. Oh well... wouldn't be the internet if someone wasn't wrong on it. Did you not read Kyle's post - 29th 15:25 Yes. The original problem pointed out that I was referring to was: It works for building=yes, but not building=true. Which is the whole point of the following discussion. No? ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Flickr Now Supports OSM Tags
Frederik Ramm writes: In the long term, standardisation would kill the project, and thus not be desirable even for our users. - Coming from the outside and not having the knowledge about OSM that we have, users can be forgiven to demand things that would ultimately destroy OSM, That's a great theory, but I keep seeing some OSM editors trying to convince other OSM editors that random tagging is a good thing, and the other OSM editors asking for more consistency. Might some editors feel pressure to tag consistently? Sure, but right now, other editors are feeling pressure to tag randomly. I don't see this as being driven by users of the data, but by editors of the data. And I'm not talking about forcing anybody to do anything, nor to not accept edits which don't comply with wishes($SteveC). I'm talking about actually having standards which people who wish to comply with standards can comply with. -- --my blog is athttp://blog.russnelson.com Crynwr supports open source software 521 Pleasant Valley Rd. | +1 315-323-1241 Potsdam, NY 13676-3213 | Sheepdog ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Flickr Now Supports OSM Tags
Frederik Ramm wrote: Hi, Dave F. wrote: I find it very disappointing you feel there is a them us situation. Yes, very disappointing but not every human being on earth happens to have an OSM account. We're working on it. Sorry Fredrik, but you /were/ talking about people already within OSM: Coming from the outside and not having the knowledge about OSM that we have Isn't that just putting an artificial middle man into the equation? The cool thing about this is that users can control what kind of middle man they want. Wouldn't it be better to have an organised, original data? Not in my eyes. If users come to us and say: Hey, we'd like to have only 6 road categories not 18 then, instead of removing information in our database to be compliant, we simply give them a set of rules for their artificial middle man that gives them 6 road categories, and we don't even have to change all our editors and re-educate all our mappers. Best of both worlds, innit? So what you have is an XSLT files that does the work that the likes of flickr would do you sell them the service. Which is fine, but you still have to work of sorting it out. What I've been trying to say ( seemingly not doing a very good job of it) is that if there was certain standardisation that work load would be reduced. Cheers Dave F. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
[OSM-talk] Is Cross posting allowed?
Hi I notice some post the same message to multiple OSM forums. In usenet I'd get flamed for it. is it acceptable here? Ta Dave F. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [OSM-dev] The OpenStreetMap website is now translatable at Translatewiki
On Wed, Sep 23, 2009 at 11:52 PM, Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason ava...@gmail.com wrote: I've now fixed Potlatch up so that it can be Translated on Translatewiki. Now it just needs to be imported into Translatewiki. I've put up a notice on the OSM wiki so that confused Translators won't use it in the interim: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php?title=Template:Potlatch/Translationdiff=345246oldid=302899 It's now possible to translate Potlatch at Translatewiki too: http://translatewiki.net/wiki/Translating:OpenStreetMap ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Please
On Thu, 1 Oct 2009, Richard Fairhurst wrote: ...can we take the back-and-forths to IRC. talk@ is the most important communication channel for OSM and it's very rapidly becoming unreadable - all the I said, no you said, no I meant, no you meant. I've spoken to a handful of people in the last few days who have unsubscribed from talk@ as a result of this. We're a friendly bunch on IRC, honest. Either that, or let's have a tagging list. But not here. Richard Thankyou for this suggestion, but it doesn't deal with the needs of multiple time zones and asynchronous communication - or simply catching up after a few days away. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] SteveC should decide
Frederik Ramm writes: Not at all. Russ has called for dictatorial leadership which the project should follow even if there were absolutely nonsensical decisions. WHOA!! I never said that. What I said was that if we can't choose, as a community, between yes/no, true/false, and 1/0, then SteveC should choose one of them, arbitrarily, because it matters more that we tag consistently than that everyone tag randomly. And yes/no, true/false, and 1/0 are merely the low-hanging fruit. The real problems are things like name=NONAME (or have I just invented Yet Another Trivially Different way of tagging roads with no name). That's where the differences are small, the opinions are many, and the negative effect on the database is large. Yes, I realize that any one randomness can probably be papered-over, but when the database is full of randomness, then it becomes harder to use. And I'm not editing because editing is fun (which it is). I'm editing because I want good, consistent data. The randomness is not a good thing. It's a case of a lack of leadership. Yes, free-form tags are a good thing. They let people be creative and not be bogged down when there is no standard. But random tags are a bad thing. They blur the data. If we have open issues in the community that we cannot find a good solution to, Time spent arguing about tags is time away from editing. Nothing is free. then the reason for this is not that we simply lack a good Führer who tells us what is right and what is wrong; I invoke Godwin's Law. it is because these issues are difficult and the community is perhaps divided about it. Surely you jest. It's difficult to choose between yes/no and true/false? Please, pull the other one, it's got bells on. Call me Mr. Gullible, but not to my face. I can't understand how some of you seem to be yearning for a power figure that absolves you from thinking for yourselves just to make things simpler. I'd never ask anybody to make a decision that goes counter to their wallet, because I know that 95% of people won't make that decision. -- --my blog is athttp://blog.russnelson.com Crynwr supports open source software 521 Pleasant Valley Rd. | +1 315-323-1241 Potsdam, NY 13676-3213 | Sheepdog ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] SteveC should decide
I'm tired of this silly true/false 1/0 yes/no up/down left/right in/out fore/aft port/starboard debate/debacle. It's trivial, it's stupid, we could just as easily toss a coin as engage in any rational debate about how binary values should be expressed. When it prevents flickr etc from displaying properly then I don't see it as trivial It isn't stopping flickr doing anything. They don't even look at any binary tags according to their blog post. This is just wrong. If SteveC says that mountain=green means that first there is a mountain, and that mountain=blue means there is no mountain, then damnit, we should do it that way. Oh my Lord, you've completely missed the point. In relation to the boolean problem OSM is saying that blue green are the *same* thing. no, just blue/#ff/rgb(0f,0f,1f) are the same thing Dave ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] SteveC should decide
Andy Allan writes: can win, and I decided about 6 months ago to ignore (or at least not rise to) the eternally pointless tagging debate. The reason it's eternal is because there's no one to choose. Steve refuses to do it because too many people give him hell when he does, and nobody defends him for doing it. Fine. I'm officially defending his right to say This is the SteveC(tm) compliant way of tagging. without catching grief from people with more time to argue than edit. I'm fine with anarchy; I'm an anarchist. But chaos is not appealing to me, otherwise I'd move to Somalia. -- --my blog is athttp://blog.russnelson.com Crynwr supports open source software 521 Pleasant Valley Rd. | +1 315-323-1241 Potsdam, NY 13676-3213 | Sheepdog ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Flickr Now Supports OSM Tags
Frederik Ramm writes: On the other side we have the mappers who do not save, or earn, any money from OSM, and the programmers and server admins and everyone who uses their spare time to create and run OSM. On the other side you have mappers who want to create useful data, not a pile of random rubbish. But things are just the other way round in OSM. The mapper is always right, So there is no purpose to the JOSM validator? No purpose to keepright? No purpose to having presets? I think you're exxagerating too make a point, Fredrick. -- --my blog is athttp://blog.russnelson.com Crynwr supports open source software 521 Pleasant Valley Rd. | +1 315-323-1241 Potsdam, NY 13676-3213 | Sheepdog ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Flickr Now Supports OSM Tags
SteveC wrote: C'mon... freeform tags set the community free, if you have a better alternative please outline it? How about you stepping in where there is an unresolvable controvery, editing the wiki, and saying I recommend this choice -- SteveC. No Nazi goose-stepping required, no dictating, no authoritarianism, just an exercise of moral authority rightfully gained. And from our perspective, allowing you to do that without personal attacks (dudes, I've seen SteveC's basement, and I can report with some authority that there IS NO PORTAL TO HELL there). -- --my blog is athttp://blog.russnelson.com Crynwr supports open source software 521 Pleasant Valley Rd. | +1 315-323-1241 Potsdam, NY 13676-3213 | Sheepdog ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Overlay showing wikipedia links
On Thu, Oct 1, 2009 at 2:34 PM, andrzej zaborowski I never understood these arguments and want to encourage using a single wikipedia= tag. I never understood people who wants to have wikipedia urls in OSM data. It is not OSM role to point to wikipedia articles but wikipedia to point to OSM geodata. And this has to be done through lat/lon coordinates. Otherwise, we will see nodes with 120 wikipedia url's (for each language) and later it will be url's to myEncyclopedia or myWordDictonnairy or yourFlickr and so on. OSM has not to replace google for indexing every web application using geolocalized data. Don't be surprised if one day, all those url's will be removed by a clean-up bot. Pieren ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] SteveC should decide
Dave F. writes: This is just wrong. If SteveC says that mountain=green means that first there is a mountain, and that mountain=blue means there is no mountain, then damnit, we should do it that way. Sheesh, has Donovan lost all his currency? Oh my Lord, you've completely missed the point. Errr, no, I agree with you. In relation to the boolean problem OSM is saying that blue green are the *same* thing. No, I'm saying that mountain=green and mountain=viridian are the same thing, but that when SteveC tells us to use green we should use green. See, the thing about open source leadership is that it's never done forcefully, because the community can fork the project. It must be a guiding hand, not a dictating hand. And I trust SteveC to listen to community input. I mean, he had the wisdom to GIVE US free-form tags in the first place, why shouldn't we listen to him when he says that random tagging (it's building=puppy, damn those spaniards) is not recommended. -- --my blog is athttp://blog.russnelson.com Crynwr supports open source software 521 Pleasant Valley Rd. | +1 315-323-1241 Potsdam, NY 13676-3213 | Sheepdog ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Please
2009/10/1 Richard Fairhurst rich...@systemed.net: let's have a tagging list. But not here. +1 Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] SteveC should decide
On 01/10/2009 13:51, Russ Nelson wrote: Frederik Ramm writes: Not at all. Russ has called for dictatorial leadership which the project should follow even if there were absolutely nonsensical decisions. WHOA!! I never said that. What I said was that if we can't choose, as a community, between yes/no, true/false, and 1/0, then SteveC should choose one of them, arbitrarily, because it matters more that we tag consistently than that everyone tag randomly. Irrespective of how decision making happens, it hardly matters if there is no real way to control the outcome. Yes, we can have edit wars with the perverse ones who insist their way is better than the concensus/autocracy/democracy, but that's not a terribly productive way of working. Wasn't there a case where we had one bot going round changing true/false to yes/no and another doing exactly the opposite at the same time? Which kind of leads into the discussion that's happening on the dev list this morning... David ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Overlay showing wikipedia links
2009/10/1 Pieren pier...@gmail.com: I never understood people who wants to have wikipedia urls in OSM data. It is not OSM role to point to wikipedia articles but wikipedia to point to OSM geodata. And this has to be done through lat/lon coordinates. in many cases it is interesting/usefull to have an OSM-feature linked directly to wikipedia, (what doesn't exclude the other way round), but I agree that 120 different language-links are not the way to go. Wikipedia offers it's own tables to come from any language to any other language for the same article, so one link in OSM should be sufficient. cheers, Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] SteveC should decide
On Thu, Oct 1, 2009 at 2:56 PM, Russ Nelson nel...@crynwr.com wrote: Would it be a good compromise to say: 1. a software application should always check boolean against yes/true/1 and not only yes 2. the wiki shoudl recommend the yes 3. a bot is setup to replace regularly all values true or 1 by yes and false or 0 by no (and nothing else). In this way, mappers are still free to prefer true or 1 and we try to keep some consistency. Or would this bot be banned ? Pieren ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Please
On Thu, Oct 1, 2009 at 2:12 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: 2009/10/1 Richard Fairhurst rich...@systemed.net: let's have a tagging list. But not here. +1 +1 cheers, matt ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] SteveC should decide
On Thu, Oct 1, 2009 at 1:56 PM, Russ Nelson nel...@crynwr.com wrote: Andy Allan writes: can win, and I decided about 6 months ago to ignore (or at least not rise to) the eternally pointless tagging debate. The reason it's eternal is because there's no one to choose. surely it has more to do with different people having different opinions? Steve refuses to do it because too many people give him hell when he does, and nobody defends him for doing it. Fine. I'm officially defending his right to say This is the SteveC(tm) compliant way of tagging. without catching grief from people with more time to argue than edit. i absolutely agree. i'd also defend frederik's right to say this is the Frederik Ramm approved tagging scheme without catching grief, or andy to say it's the One True Gravitystorm way, etc... etc... I'm fine with anarchy; I'm an anarchist. But chaos is not appealing to me, otherwise I'd move to Somalia. you're fine with anarchy, but you'd like an organisational method of resolving arguments? anarchy + rules? free-form tagging was genius, but it was based on the idea that these folksonomies (urgh, i hate that word) naturally converge by people using them, tools consuming them and the feedback loops that creates. we need to be strengthening those processes - not defining rules, elevating adjudicators or otherwise compromising the original awesome genius of free-form tagging. cheers, matt PS: i resisted as long as i could. penance: http://imgur.com/paLI8.png ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Overlay showing wikipedia links
2009/10/1 Pieren pier...@gmail.com: On Thu, Oct 1, 2009 at 2:34 PM, andrzej zaborowski I never understood these arguments and want to encourage using a single wikipedia= tag. I never understood people who wants to have wikipedia urls in OSM data. It is not OSM role to point to wikipedia articles but wikipedia to point to OSM geodata. And this has to be done through lat/lon coordinates. No, this is just stupid. A page about a building or about a european route E30 has completely nothing to do with with a pair of coordinates - this is just for pretty display, has no semantical value. There's a 1:1 correspondence between the subject of the page and the route relation or building way in OSM though. Otherwise, we will see nodes with 120 wikipedia url's (for each language) and later it will be url's to myEncyclopedia or If you actually take the time to read my mail, you'll notice this is what I'm arguing against. Don't be surprised if one day, all those url's will be removed by a clean-up bot. That'll obviously be vandalism. Cheers ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] SteveC should decide
2009/10/1 Pieren pier...@gmail.com: On Thu, Oct 1, 2009 at 2:56 PM, Russ Nelson nel...@crynwr.com wrote: Would it be a good compromise to say: 1. a software application should always check boolean against yes/true/1 and not only yes 2. the wiki shoudl recommend the yes 3. a bot is setup to replace regularly all values true or 1 by yes and false or 0 by no (and nothing else). In this way, mappers are still free to prefer true or 1 and we try to keep some consistency. Or would this bot be banned ? Pieren The problem with this is that things are never that black and white there are aways shades of Grey. Simple Parsing might be quite happy with Yes/No or True/False, but 2 might mean something different to 1 while both can be inferred to mean yes. Peter ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] SteveC should decide
On Thu, Oct 01, 2009 at 03:18:58PM +0200, Pieren wrote: Would it be a good compromise to say: 1. a software application should always check boolean against yes/true/1 and not only yes 2. the wiki shoudl recommend the yes I agree on that. 3. a bot is setup to replace regularly all values true or 1 by yes and false or 0 by no (and nothing else). I'd like that, but with the addition that this is only done for a select list of tags where we all agree on that yes=true=1 and no=false=0. It would be a shame if we got layer=yes and stuff like that. Cheers, -- Sybren A. Stüvel http://stuvel.eu/ signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] SteveC should decide
2009/10/1 Dave Stubbs osm.l...@randomjunk.co.uk: I'm tired of this silly true/false 1/0 yes/no up/down left/right in/out fore/aft port/starboard debate/debacle. It's trivial, it's stupid, we could just as easily toss a coin as engage in any rational debate about how binary values should be expressed. When it prevents flickr etc from displaying properly then I don't see it as trivial It isn't stopping flickr doing anything. They don't even look at any binary tags according to their blog post. +1, besides: if, after 2 days of support in Flickr, not everything already works at 100%, that's just a matter of time: they will be able to look not just on yes/no but on 1/0 and true/false within short time - like everyone else has to. The presets already have been unified on yes/no, and nobody stops you from substituting true/false to yes/no on other occurances. Cheers, Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] SteveC should decide
2009/10/1 Pieren pier...@gmail.com: 3. a bot is setup to replace regularly all values true or 1 by yes and false or 0 by no (and nothing else). Wouldn't that waste CPU cycles and bloat the change files for almost no benefit? Wouldn't it be better if editors automated this before uploading? ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Please
There is one small problem with this suggestion, if most new users are invited to join this and other lists and the number of users are increasing at an exponential rate the number of messages will go up at an equal or greater rate, then what? ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Please
2009/10/1 Richard Fairhurst rich...@systemed.net Either that, or let's have a tagging list. But not here. +1 Emilie Laffray ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Please
+1 I just submitted a ticket. http://trac.openstreetmap.org/ticket/2337 And made an entry in my diary about this *Dear OSM users : trac.openstreetmap.orghttp://www.openstreetmap.org/user/acrosscanadatrails/diary/8129 * Hope that helps, Cheers Sam Twitter: @Acrosscanada Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/sam.vekemans On Thu, Oct 1, 2009 at 6:38 AM, John Smith deltafoxtrot...@gmail.comwrote: There is one small problem with this suggestion, if most new users are invited to join this and other lists and the number of users are increasing at an exponential rate the number of messages will go up at an equal or greater rate, then what? ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Overlay showing wikipedia links
On Thu, Oct 1, 2009 at 3:28 PM, andrzej zaborowski No, this is just stupid. Uh, that's a good argument. I'm sure the group of wikipedian's setting up their own osm maps server will be happy to hear that. A page about a building or about a european route E30 has completely nothing to do with with a pair of coordinates - this is just for pretty display, has no semantical value. There's a 1:1 correspondence between the subject of the page and the route relation or building way in OSM though. I hope that wikipedia articles will not rely on elements id's from OSM as all objects can be droped and recreated with a new id. What is more reliable is the coordinates of the building (excepted when it is mounted on wheels on very rare cases). The problem of a route is different but I would hope that wikipedians will be able to generate their own rendering for such things (which they are starting to do). If you actually take the time to read my mail, you'll notice this is what I'm arguing against. That'll obviously be vandalism. You just think about wikipedia. But if you also read my email, I suggest that when you allow this for wikipedia, you cannot forbid for the 1000 other web sites who would like to be pointed by OSM. And who will decide that what is good for wikipedia is not good for microsoft bing or google bong or whatever. Then if you say remove microsoft url's, they will call you a vandal ? Pieren ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Please
2009/10/1 John Smith deltafoxtrot...@gmail.com: There is one small problem with this suggestion, if most new users are invited to join this and other lists and the number of users are increasing at an exponential rate the number of messages will go up at an equal or greater rate, then what? everybody could try to reduce contributions to the necessary? Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Please
+1 ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] SteveC should decide
On Thu, Oct 1, 2009 at 3:32 PM, Peter Childs pchi...@bcs.org wrote: The problem with this is that things are never that black and white there are aways shades of Grey. Simple Parsing might be quite happy with Yes/No or True/False, but 2 might mean something different to 1 while both can be inferred to mean yes. Peter Yes, I forgot to mention something that was obvious for me. The value should be checked against his key. A maxspeed=1 or width=1 or layer=0 is of course possible (although not always sensible). But I'm not the one who will write such bot, I was just asking if this would be well considered or if it just a bad idea. Pieren ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Is Cross posting allowed?
On Thu, Oct 1, 2009 at 12:43 PM, Dave F. dave...@madasafish.com wrote: I notice some post the same message to multiple OSM forums. In usenet I'd get flamed for it. is it acceptable here? Yes. If it's applicable to the forums you're sending it to. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Please
On Thu, Oct 1, 2009 at 8:38 AM, John Smith deltafoxtrot...@gmail.comwrote: There is one small problem with this suggestion, if most new users are invited to join this and other lists and the number of users are increasing at an exponential rate the number of messages will go up at an equal or greater rate, then what? In that case, hopefully the number of off-topic and chatty posts will go down as more people have more on-topic questions to ask... (For those of you with GMail, I would suggest looking into the Mute Conversation function...) ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] SteveC should decide
2009/10/1 Pieren pier...@gmail.com: On Thu, Oct 1, 2009 at 3:32 PM, Peter Childs pchi...@bcs.org wrote: The problem with this is that things are never that black and white there are aways shades of Grey. Simple Parsing might be quite happy with Yes/No or True/False, but 2 might mean something different to 1 while both can be inferred to mean yes. Peter Yes, I forgot to mention something that was obvious for me. The value should be checked against his key. A maxspeed=1 or width=1 or layer=0 is of course possible (although not always sensible). But I'm not the one who will write such bot, I was just asking if this would be well considered or if it just a bad idea. Pieren My Fault bad example its more Yes/No/Tuesdays, (Tuesday meaning Yes But only on a Tuesday) which I guess in most cases should be in another tag, But the number of times I've met -1 to mean True and then find a place where -1 is False is not as small as you think. (Says he a Programmer) Peter. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] SteveC should decide
Hi, Matt Amos wrote: i absolutely agree. i'd also defend frederik's right to say this is the Frederik Ramm approved tagging scheme without catching grief, or andy to say it's the One True Gravitystorm way, etc... etc... Now we're getting somewhere. This goes back to an idea floated a while ago by RichardF, and mentioned by Harry Wood in his talk at SOTM - I think it is called tags I use. The idea behind that (and correct me if I'm wrong) is that anyone makes their own decisions (just like now) and in cases where people think they have a good definition they put this on some kind of special wiki page or database or whatever (tags I use, and how I use them). Others can then choose to follow someone else's definitions, or not, or follow a mix, or create their own. I'm ok with that kind of leadership where everyone can choose for himself by whom he wants to be led. I'm just not ok with A and B choosing a leader and C then has to follow. Bye Frederik ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
[OSM-legal-talk] distribution
Hello, I hope i have picked the right list to ask these questions, please alow me to explain myself; I am a 4x4 off-roader and i have a laptop on the dash of my vehicle running memory map. I have been searching the internet for cheap detailed maps. I have had little success. I took the decision to make my own maps. I have began compiling DVDs/CDs with map data taken from the US Gov GeoCover website https://zulu.ssc.nasa.gov/mrsid/mrsid.pl and openstreetmap xml data. i have then encoded it into geotiff tiles for use with memory map and other gps based software. i have the intention of selling the dvds at cost, around £10. this will include a donation of £2.50 to openstreetmap. the remainder of the money will cover the free postage,ebay fees and the cost of a dvd with a case. I have been trying to find someone at openstreetmap that can help me with the legalities of putting openstreetmap onto a dvd which i then sell. I don't want to step on anyone toes as it were. for an idea of what i am doing point your browsers to http://maps.sj410.co.uk on there i have the html which autorun when the dvd/cd is inserted into the users pc. i have only started work on iceland for the moment but i hope to include other contries if what i am doing is acceptable. any advice would be greatly appreciated Greg Holloway. _ Get the best of MSN on your mobile http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/147991039/direct/01/___ legal-talk mailing list legal-t...@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Flickr Now Supports OSM Tags
2009/10/1 Russ Nelson nel...@crynwr.com: But things are just the other way round in OSM. The mapper is always right, So there is no purpose to the JOSM validator? No purpose to keepright? No purpose to having presets? I think you're exxagerating too make a point, Fredrick. they are all limited, and in the end you (mapper) have to evaluate their hints and remarks and judge whether to follow them or ignore them. Every editor (AFAIK) has still the possibility to enter in freeform any tag you like. cheers, Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] SteveC should decide
2009/10/2 Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org: The idea behind that (and correct me if I'm wrong) is that anyone makes their own decisions (just like now) and in cases where people think they have a good definition they put this on some kind of special wiki page or database or whatever (tags I use, and how I use them). Others can then choose to follow someone else's definitions, or not, or follow a mix, or create their own. What happens when people fail to document what they're doing? ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] SteveC should decide
Matt Amos wrote: Sent: 01 October 2009 2:25 PM To: Russ Nelson Cc: talk@openstreetmap.org Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] SteveC should decide On Thu, Oct 1, 2009 at 1:56 PM, Russ Nelson nel...@crynwr.com wrote: Andy Allan writes: can win, and I decided about 6 months ago to ignore (or at least not rise to) the eternally pointless tagging debate. The reason it's eternal is because there's no one to choose. surely it has more to do with different people having different opinions? Steve refuses to do it because too many people give him hell when he does, and nobody defends him for doing it. Fine. I'm officially defending his right to say This is the SteveC(tm) compliant way of tagging. without catching grief from people with more time to argue than edit. i absolutely agree. i'd also defend frederik's right to say this is the Frederik Ramm approved tagging scheme without catching grief, or andy to say it's the One True Gravitystorm way, etc... etc... I'm fine with anarchy; I'm an anarchist. But chaos is not appealing to me, otherwise I'd move to Somalia. you're fine with anarchy, but you'd like an organisational method of resolving arguments? anarchy + rules? free-form tagging was genius, but it was based on the idea that these folksonomies (urgh, i hate that word) naturally converge by people using them, tools consuming them and the feedback loops that creates. we need to be strengthening those processes - not defining rules, elevating adjudicators or otherwise compromising the original awesome genius of free-form tagging. The reality is that there is natural convergence for most tags. Now thats not to say there won't be more than one tag for the same thing, there will. It just means that something is tagged predominately one way rather than any other way. Does that make the other tags wrong? Of course not. It would only be wrong if it made no logical sense and nobody could understand it. So I agree with Matt. To me its not the tags that need controls its the process by which we select them. Mostly I guess tags (as the originator of Map Features I can remember most of the basics and have a good idea, my personal idea, of how to build up tags beyond that. Now, if I guess and had some tool tell me that my guess was close to some other tags (A top 10 list if you like) I might choose differently. That would be better than guesswork, but still allow the freeform tagging that permits me to get stuff mapped quickly. I dont have time to read the manual! Cheers Andy ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] SteveC should decide
Frederik Ramm wrote: Sent: 01 October 2009 3:13 PM To: Matt Amos Cc: talk@openstreetmap.org Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] SteveC should decide Hi, Matt Amos wrote: i absolutely agree. i'd also defend frederik's right to say this is the Frederik Ramm approved tagging scheme without catching grief, or andy to say it's the One True Gravitystorm way, etc... etc... Now we're getting somewhere. This goes back to an idea floated a while ago by RichardF, and mentioned by Harry Wood in his talk at SOTM - I think it is called tags I use. The idea behind that (and correct me if I'm wrong) is that anyone makes their own decisions (just like now) and in cases where people think they have a good definition they put this on some kind of special wiki page or database or whatever (tags I use, and how I use them). Others can then choose to follow someone else's definitions, or not, or follow a mix, or create their own. I'm ok with that kind of leadership where everyone can choose for himself by whom he wants to be led. I'm just not ok with A and B choosing a leader and C then has to follow. +1 Cheers Andy ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] SteveC should decide
John Smith wrote: Sent: 01 October 2009 3:23 PM To: Frederik Ramm Cc: talk@openstreetmap.org Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] SteveC should decide 2009/10/2 Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org: The idea behind that (and correct me if I'm wrong) is that anyone makes their own decisions (just like now) and in cases where people think they have a good definition they put this on some kind of special wiki page or database or whatever (tags I use, and how I use them). Others can then choose to follow someone else's definitions, or not, or follow a mix, or create their own. What happens when people fail to document what they're doing? All the documentation you need in the database already. Look up a users edits and then analyse the tags used. Cheers Andy ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] SteveC should decide
2009/10/2 Andy Robinson (blackadder-lists) ajrli...@googlemail.com: John Smith wrote: Sent: 01 October 2009 3:23 PM To: Frederik Ramm Cc: talk@openstreetmap.org Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] SteveC should decide 2009/10/2 Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org: The idea behind that (and correct me if I'm wrong) is that anyone makes their own decisions (just like now) and in cases where people think they have a good definition they put this on some kind of special wiki page or database or whatever (tags I use, and how I use them). Others can then choose to follow someone else's definitions, or not, or follow a mix, or create their own. What happens when people fail to document what they're doing? All the documentation you need in the database already. Look up a users edits and then analyse the tags used. Seems like a lot of effort and may be very imprecise depending how consistent the person is. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] SteveC should decide
2009/10/2 Andy Robinson (blackadder-lists) ajrli...@googlemail.com: So I agree with Matt. To me its not the tags that need controls it’s the process by which we select them. Mostly I guess tags (as the originator of Map Features I can remember most of the basics and have a good idea, my personal idea, of how to build up tags beyond that. Now, if I guess and had some tool tell me that my guess was close to some other tags (A top 10 list if you like) I might choose differently. That would be better than guesswork, but still allow the freeform tagging that permits me to get stuff mapped quickly. I don’t have time to read the manual! +1 At present JOSM only gives you an alphabetically sorted list of tags based on the area loaded, if this was a top 10 list from a much wider area that would be immensely more useful. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Flickr Now Supports OSM Tags
Russ Nelson wrote: On the other side you have mappers who want to create useful data, not a pile of random rubbish. No-one wants to create random rubbish. What people do want is to be able to describe what they've just mapped without needing prior approval from the OpenStreetMap Tagging Standardisation Committee. So there is no purpose to the JOSM validator? No purpose to keepright? No purpose to having presets? I think you're exxagerating too make a point, Fredrick. They're just tools. They can only give you information, not make decisions for you. They can also be wrong sometimes. -- Jonathan (Jonobennett) ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Overlay showing wikipedia links
Pieren wrote: I never understood people who wants to have wikipedia urls in OSM data. It is not OSM role to point to wikipedia articles but wikipedia to point to OSM geodata. And this has to be done through lat/lon coordinates. lat/lon coordinates aren't an ideal solution for this. Imagine some live rendering (using JavaScript, Flash or whatever). The programmer wants to add the following features: - different color for buildings with Wikipedia article - mouseover highlighting of buildings - clicking on highlighted building opens Wikipedia article Can the programmer do that with lat/lon? No. Because lat/lon doesn't offer a connection between an article and a certain OSM primitive. Similarly, in a map with icons for POIs, you will need to add additional icons for Wikipedia links, so you will end up with two icons for the same POI. And so on. So what can we do to store that connection? We can - link to a Wikipedia article from OSM - does work, but of course this causes a notability problem if links to other sites are added, too - link to an OSM id from Wikipedia - ids are probably too fragile - invent some new way of adressing OSM objects; for example: lat/lon + tag(s) that will be looked up in some region area around the lat/lon (The pub with name=Foo near that location) - could be a rather robust solution, but doesn't exist right now Therefore, I can understand very well why people are adding wikipedia=* tags. It might cause problems later, but the other solutions have apparent flaws right now. Tobias Knerr ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Flickr Now Supports OSM Tags
yes he is a leader and as such deserves respect. he should lead some useful and intelligent projects and don't loose a word about this childish 1/0/yes/no/true/false discussions. a consumer of the data has to do a bit more work but this is a small fee for free access to an amazing database. I find it disappointing you think this discussion childish. As Eugene pointed out it's only the tone of the people that post that would make it so not the subject matter. After reading talk for months I have learned all these discussions are a waste of time. very few of the people filling the mailbox do any work to change it. any thread with more than 20 mails is going nowhere read the mail from Andy earlier today again and this is the correct attitude. He decided to do something about it. If it's good I can't tell because I didn't check. But better than just complaining and starting the same discussion 3 month later again and again read the archives if you don't believe it. I'm finding this thread a good learning experience about OSM it's mappers. Not always a positive one, I have to admit, but I can't have everything. It is anarchy and don't expect a structure of a commercial project. BUT you get a lot of benefits for free! If the consumers had to do less work then OSM would get *more* consumers. Which is half the point of the exercise, isn't it? To pass on an easily solved problem like this for others to sort out is, as I said before IMO - selfish. again it's free. anyone can change and contribute. If you know a solution go ahead and change it. we can all learn from osm, wikipedia and other projects. they have different dynamics and if users can't accept the freedom they don't need to use it. The expression take responsibility for your own actions doesn't appear to carry much weight around here. don't think so. the ones doing the hard work in the background rarely contribute to these childish discussions because they DO something useful instead wasting their time. Cheers Dave F. Cheers Dave F. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
