date:20130203


On 2013-02-03 13:29, Tom Taylor wrote:

I'm interested in OSM. I do mapping. I subscribed to Talk after a few
weeks on Newbies, but all these political outcries strongly tempt me
to unsubscribe. They don't contribute to the mapping that is
presumably our primary interest.


maps are inherently political. to suggest they are not, and are mere 
reflections of some sort of objective reality is wrong. if you're 
involved in maps, there will be politics. whether you realise it or not 
and whether the ideology they display is visible or not, are other 
matters.


they set out notions of what is important in a society, reify abstract 
boundaries and thus nations-states.


i read this recently, it had some major flaws, but made a good argument 
as to the political nature of maps:

https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1921340

also:
http://books.google.co.nz/books?id=DSFHnonqr7kCdq=map+politicalhl=ensa=Xei=pSQOUbCAIuzwmAXb-oCwBAredir_esc=y
http://books.google.co.nz/books?id=WhyPBHJV5VYCprintsec=frontcoverdq=map+politicalhl=ensa=Xei=pSQOUbCAIuzwmAXb-oCwBAredir_esc=y

i'm sure there are plenty of other journals and books that say similar.

--
robin

http://universitywithoutconditions.ac.nz - Auckland's Free University

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Paweł's q: what can be done?


On 2013-02-03 07:41, Jeff Meyer wrote:

was: geocoding trademark thread

I think Paweł has hit on a key question: does the OSMF have plans to
operate and lead OSM in a more efficient, organized manner or not?


what makes you think anyone wants to be lead, i certainly don't? or 
wants to be organised from above? we're all fully functional human 
beings, perfectly capable of organising ourselves, and doing a damn good 
job so far - look at where OSM and most other digital commons projects 
have got through self-organising.


i disagree with any idea of a board, i think it's utterly wrong, it 
reduces a community of thousands to the views a handful of people can 
put across.


--
robin

http://universitywithoutconditions.ac.nz - Auckland's Free University

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Paweł's q: what can be done?

2013-02-03 Thread Michael Buege


Am 03.02.2013 09:57, schrieb Robin Paulson:

On 2013-02-03 07:41, Jeff Meyer wrote:

was: geocoding trademark thread

I think Paweł has hit on a key question: does the OSMF have plans to
operate and lead OSM in a more efficient, organized manner or not?


what makes you think anyone wants to be lead, i certainly don't? or
wants to be organised from above? we're all fully functional human
beings, perfectly capable of organising ourselves, and doing a damn good
job so far - look at where OSM and most other digital commons projects
have got through self-organising.

i disagree with any idea of a board, i think it's utterly wrong, it
reduces a community of thousands to the views a handful of people can
put across.



Thank you, Robin.
Reading this is the sugar in my Sunday morning coffee and gives me back 
a lot of hope still to be a part of a free and open project.



___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Recent edits in the wiki / Trademark issue

2013-02-03 Thread Pieren

After reading this long thread (not all), I naively still don't
understand where the problem is. The trademark is in US. It has been
refused in Europe. The wiki is hosted in Europe. End of story. It is
just a problem for our US colleagues to reproduce the concerned parts
of the wiki in US.
I'm just asking myself what will be the reaction of the OSMF if they
receive a C+D letter from Kim Jomg-un asking to withdraw all geodata
of North Korea because it is forbidden there.

Pieren

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] STFU

2013-02-03 Thread Paweł Paprota


On 02/02/2013 11:30 PM, Chris Hill wrote:


Actually, I question just how valuable the work is of someone who uses
it to threaten the community with withdrawing it if he is a bit upset. I
prefer to see the work given freely without strings attached - that's
what I see as what Open means. YMMV.


How am I threatning anyone? I'm just speaking out loud what are my 
concerns and that's not because I want to threaten but maybe provoke 
some people to think about what effects their actions (or inaction) have 
on the community.


What strings are attached to my work? The code is on Github, it's on 
open source license, I'm actively working on it and at the same time 
taking part in these discussions.


Paweł


___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] STFU


On 2013-02-03 10:23, Chris Hill wrote:

Maybe a few of you braver than the brave, loud-mouthed, armchair
lawyers should just STFU and give the board a break.


this is an ad hominem [1] and thus an irrelevancy, it aims to discredit 
the people, while ignoring what's being said. can you stick to the 
issue, we're not here to debate personality types?



When some of you have had as much abuse and hassle in an unpaid job
they volunteered for, in their spare time, maybe then you would
understand how hard it is to please all of the people all of the 
time.

Impossible is the answer.


you're right, that being the case, how can they claim to represent 
thousands of individuals who take part in OSM? they have no mandate 
whatsoever. some of us entirely reject the idea of any form of 
representation as it is inherently corrupt, no matter how hard the 
representatives try, or how virtuous they are.



*IF* mistakes have been made, then they are honest mistakes made by
volunteers who stepped up to the mark to try to make OSM better.

*IF* mistakes have been made, AFAIK no real harm has been done. The
worst damage so far is to the pompous, over-sensitive We Must Know
Everything brigade who feel offended because they have not been


that's an ad hominem again. can we stick to the point? labelling people 
as pompous is not helpful, it's divisive. i'm not sure what it has to do 
with collecting geodata



informed of every breath drawn. To them I say: Grow Up. An Open


and an ad hominem again. this time with more orders to behave as you 
demand.



community doesn't mean getting an email, text, tweet and personal
letter every time something happens. That's why we have a board - to


firstly, this is a gross exaggeration, no-one asked for that in this 
whole thread.


and secondly, we? who is this we? they don't represent me or most 
others who map, they represent whoever voted for them. how many is that? 
where was the option for i don't want a board, we don't need 
representing?



To the board I say, do your best guys and thank you very much for
what you do and how you do it. Don't be tempted to pick up the toys
thrown out of prams by a small group of people. That mistake was made


more personal abuse and insults. why? what are you so angry at? do you 
have to direct it here?



during licence-change and it just caused more upset. You were elected
for a term (at least) to do your best, so do it and good luck.

Threats to leave the project remind me of the bullshit thrown around
during licence-change when hardly anyone actually had the balls to
follow through. If people are so unhappy then go, but do so quickly
and quietly and leave the people really interested in OSM to continue
making the very best map database we can.


chris, i don't know where this email comes from, or why it's here, but 
it's inflammatory, totally inappropriate and unlikely to achieve 
anything positive. if there's a rational argument in there, can you make 
it?


[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

--
robin

http://universitywithoutconditions.ac.nz - Auckland's Free University

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Paweł's q: what can be done?

2013-02-03 Thread Paweł Paprota


On 02/02/2013 11:49 PM, Frederik Ramm wrote:


you are too impatient, at least too impatient for the occasionally
glacial pace at which things move in OSM(F).

You have been with OSM for about 6 months now if I'm not mistaken,
and most of your recent messages (at least most of the messages that
reach me) are about how and why you might be leaving. Most people
take a bit longer than that!


That's because in those 6 months I have worked several hundred hours
(300) on my OSM related projects. So I'm not exactly a regular member
of the community. I was working nearly full time on OSM in my own time
from October to December.

So you may say that my impatience was accelerated by that fact.


You are also jumping to conclusions (OSMF doesn't want to set agenda
for the future) - maybe OSMF simply wants to think it over?


Please don't quote selectively. This sentence was an either/or
construct so please don't quote out of context.

And you seem to be thinking it over since 2011 according to SWG
meeting minutes. As Jeff mentioned, there is a group of people who have
the energy and ideas on how to reactivate such strategic/future
initiative. I'm very interested to see how OSMF reacts to that.


There are many others who have, over the years, done much more work
that you have, in their spare time, and who haven't after only six
months sent lots of emails about having to abandon all their work if
 OSMF doesn't finally manage to implement strategic planning or so.


So what? People are different. I am apparently more outspoken or
sensitive to some stuff than others. I.e. I want to make sure that the
project I'm spending tons of my own free time is actually going
somewhere. What's wrong with that?


It seems that in your particular case you see a connection between
coding for OSM and the OSMF because ultimately you would like to get
paid for your work, and you don't see OSMF paying developers without
a strategic plan. Is that reading correct, or do you simply fear that
without a strategically planning organisation the OSM project will
die and your contributions with it?


I abandoned my apparent pipe-dream of getting paid for OSM work
about a month ago. I still think that the community should be supported
in their efforts by some organization like OSMF, i.e. CWG or DWG members
should be actually paid for their work on some basis. Developers may be
a different case because some of the tasks require extreme amount of
work so it could be done on case-by-case basis.

What I want right now is some sign that OSM is not fading away as a
project. And no, we just need time to think it over written by OSMF
board member is not what I'm looking for.

For me the next 6-8 months will be make or break for OSM(F).

Paweł

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Paweł's q: what can be done?

2013-02-03 Thread ce-test, qualified testing bv - Gert Gremmen


On 2013-02-03 12:14, Michal Migurski wrote:

Communication is hard, and there are ways to do it that make people
feel like they're getting a complete story instead of a confused
glimpse through an accidentally-open door. Simon's mail left out a 
lot
of important things, most notably that he's a member of the OSMF 
Board

and that it was an official statement.


Michal, what do you mean by official?

from wikipedia, i see:
An official is someone who holds an office (function or mandate, 
regardless whether it carries an actual working space with it) in an 
organization or government and participates in the exercise of authority 
(either his own or that of his superior and/or employer, public or 
legally private).


which concerns me no end. what position of authority does simon hold? 
over whom?


what significance does the osmf board hold? they speak for themselves, 
not anyone else.


--
robin

http://universitywithoutconditions.ac.nz - Auckland's Free University

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] STFU

2013-02-03 Thread Johan C

On 3 Feb 2013 00:31, Tom Taylor tom.taylor.s...@gmail.com wrote:

...They don't contribute to the mapping that is presumably our primary
interest.

@ Robin
...where was the option for i don't want a board, we don't need
representing?

Our main page states:
the project that creates and distributes
freehttp://www.openstreetmap.org/copyright geographic
data for the world.

Nice to have lots of data, with lots of different quality levels, but what
the hack if it's not being used and improved due to interaction with humans
using navigation apps, search engines, and other applications aimed at user
experience? I'm very interested in the motives of people contributing to
Google Map Maker. Why won't they use Openstreetmap? Why voluntarily choose
for a closed system instead of an open system? The answer so far: because
Google Maps is being used by a lot of people, you can help much more people
by contributing through GMM than through OSM.

And maybe they are right. The goal of OSM is indeed not to have a benefit
for people. The goal is to create data. And following that goal, it's not
important to be big. It's not important to ask yourself why only 30.000 of
the 1.030.000 registered OSM'ers are active contributors. It's not
important to ask yourself what can be done to encourage the other 1.000.000
to become an active contributor. Just let me do my own thing. And don't
have some people think of these things because they are interested in the
future of OSM. It's too political. It's too (dirty word) strategic. That
doesn't help mapping.

My sentences above are not cynical. It's just what the community wants
(oops, how do 'we' measure that actually?). 'We' didn't encourage 1.000.000
registered but inactive users yet to become active. 'We' didn't wonder why
GMM succesfully created a large community. 'We' didn't ask ourself the
question why businesses rush to get their geolocation in Google Maps, and
refuse (personal experience with big corporations like McDonalds) to have
their geolocation in OSM. So, it's good to have a lot of mappers doing
their thing using great hardware and software (created by centralized
decisions by people with a vision to create OSM, get help from a university
to host hardware, create Potlatch, JOSM, Mapnik etc etc). It's also good to
have a sort of centralized thinking about the future of OSM, not only by
OSMF, but by anyone who is interested in thinking about 'our' future. Where
do we want OSM to be in a few years?

But, that's my opinion. If I'm the only one in the community asking myself
these questions, than I'll shut up. Pulling on a dead horse is heavy

Cheers, Johan

An addicted mapper
http://hdyc.neis-one.org/?It%27s%20so%20funny

__**_
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.**org/listinfo/talkhttp://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Paweł's q: what can be done?

Giving the world a point of Access to OSM, like the OSMF, BoD,
and whatever steering committee, group or other entity,
give outsiders the idea that OSMF owns OSM, which is not true,
By obeying such request without objections 
we give others the idea that we are defenseless.
Instead OSMF should have replied that  it's not OSMF that owns
 OSM, (send a copy of the OSMF statutes with it),
and that they should address their complaints elsewhere.

If you own (or think that you own) a multi million
worth asset such as usable map of the world, and
think you can manage that without the financial means
to defend it, one must have a simplified and naïve vision
of the outside world.
I am sure this is the first small incident, and it will
be followed by a number of other hyena's that smell money.

OSMF, if it wants to continue to function as a self-instated
owner of OSM, will have to get the funds to defend itself.

Gert Gremmen


-Oorspronkelijk bericht-
Van: Michael Buege [mailto:mich...@buegehome.de] 
Verzonden: zondag 3 februari 2013 11:55
Aan: talk@openstreetmap.org
Onderwerp: Re: [OSM-talk] Paweł's q: what can be done?

Am 03.02.2013 09:57, schrieb Robin Paulson:
 On 2013-02-03 07:41, Jeff Meyer wrote:
 was: geocoding trademark thread

 I think Paweł has hit on a key question: does the OSMF have plans to
 operate and lead OSM in a more efficient, organized manner or not?

 what makes you think anyone wants to be lead, i certainly don't? or
 wants to be organised from above? we're all fully functional human
 beings, perfectly capable of organising ourselves, and doing a damn good
 job so far - look at where OSM and most other digital commons projects
 have got through self-organising.

 i disagree with any idea of a board, i think it's utterly wrong, it
 reduces a community of thousands to the views a handful of people can
 put across.


Thank you, Robin.
Reading this is the sugar in my Sunday morning coffee and gives me back 
a lot of hope still to be a part of a free and open project.


___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Recent edits in the wiki / Trademark issue

2013-02-03 Thread Richard Weait

Why does a company in one country care about what a court says in another
country?

Perhaps because of a treaty where the countries mutually recognize the
decisions of the courts of the other country.

Where no treaty exists, there may be common law that allows enforcement of
the judgements of a court in another country, depending on the
circumstances.  In that case, a first court action (US) would be completed,
with a decision and perhaps an award of damages.  If the infringer decided
to ignore the US court order to pay, another court action could be brought
in UK as a contract matter, and the infringer might be ordered to pay.

That common law, contract matter may have well known exemptions.  Perhaps
only judgements for real damages will be supported by the local court, but
punitive damages will be ignored.  Perhaps sentencing judgements for the
death penalty will not be recognized.  Details will differ by the
jurisdictions and other legal details involved.

Why does a US trade mark make any difference to a company in UK?

Trade marks are jurisdictional.  If there are consumers in the
jurisdiction, then the trade mark may come into play.  So if you have a US
trade mark on your web site, and your web site has users in USA, the US
trade mark might become a matter to concern yourself with.

Again.  I'm not a lawyer.  I'm not your lawyer.  You should talk to your
lawyer if you really care about the details of a real legal matter.  This
is background information not related to any specific legal matter.

On this specific matter, OSMF will be taking advice from their lawyers,
because taking legal advice from a thread on the internet can be a long,
drawn out, exercise. :-)

What if the CD related to all geodata in a country, rather than a trade
mark?

Simon's original post said, Both the use of the term “geocode” and the use
of the Google API are merely incidental to us. Doing without them does not
in any way impact the core goals or operation of OSM.

I presume that OSMF would react differently for a matter that does impact
the core goals or operation of OSM.

But all geodata for a country is not the issue at hand.  How much what
if do we want to play, here?  :-)
___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] talk Digest, Vol 102, Issue 15

2013-02-03 Thread Aun Yngve Johnsen

Last I checked, SimonPoole holds an office as OSMF board member, no need for 
authority, but his voice some how is official for OSMF unless clearly denounced 
as Fredrikk Ramm is good at when venting his personal opinions.

Aun Johnsen

On 3. feb. 2013, at 10:00, talk-requ...@openstreetmap.org wrote:

 Michal, what do you mean by official?
 
 from wikipedia, i see:
 An official is someone who holds an office (function or mandate, 
 regardless whether it carries an actual working space with it) in an 
 organization or government and participates in the exercise of authority 
 (either his own or that of his superior and/or employer, public or 
 legally private).
 
 which concerns me no end. what position of authority does simon hold? 
 over whom?
 
 what significance does the osmf board hold? they speak for themselves, 
 not anyone else.
 
 -- 
 robin

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

[OSM-talk] moderation

2013-02-03 Thread Mikel Maron

Hi y'all

I'm just tuning into the discussions over the past few days. Let me ask, 
please, before you post again, please review the etiquette guidelines.
  http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Etiquette

 
No matter what our disagreements and concerns, everyone here wants the same 
thing, a great map of everything. Respect goes a long way.

While there are definitely some inciteful things in these threads, I'm not 
suggesting any moderation now. 
But I'm going to be on the look out for it for a little while here.

-Mikel

ps 

imho
There are lots of good potential channels for this energy and ideas. 
The OSMF is here for governance, and the Management Team is designed to support 
operational decision making and action by members, not only the Board.
/imho

* Mikel Maron * +14152835207 @mikel s:mikelmaron___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Paweł's q: what can be done?

2013-02-03 Thread Michal Migurski

On Feb 3, 2013, at 3:37 AM, Robin Paulson wrote:

 On 2013-02-03 12:14, Michal Migurski wrote:
 Communication is hard, and there are ways to do it that make people
 feel like they're getting a complete story instead of a confused
 glimpse through an accidentally-open door. Simon's mail left out a lot
 of important things, most notably that he's a member of the OSMF Board
 and that it was an official statement.
 
 Michal, what do you mean by official?
 
 from wikipedia, i see:
 An official is someone who holds an office (function or mandate, regardless 
 whether it carries an actual working space with it) in an organization or 
 government and participates in the exercise of authority (either his own or 
 that of his superior and/or employer, public or legally private).
 
 which concerns me no end. what position of authority does simon hold? over 
 whom?

Simon is the elected chairman of the OSMF board, and can speak on its behalf. 
He holds a position of authority over the Geocode Inc. issue because apparently 
the foundation received a CD.


 what significance does the osmf board hold? they speak for themselves, not 
 anyone else.


That's exactly the question at hand in this particular argument.

We seem to have an OSMF that's not effective at communicating, and large parts 
of the community don't see the value they offer. Your takeaway is that the 
board is not representative of the project and should not exist at all. My 
feeling is that a project needs a political structure to survive. In either 
case, Geocode Inc. believes that the OSMF are the right people to receive a CD.

Ultimately, someone needs to own the domain name and the API and the servers it 
runs on. That's who the Geocodes of the world are going to target. It would be 
best if that someone was answerable to the larger community through a 
democratic process of some sort, so in my view the OSMF is a requirement.

I'm not frustrated that we *have* a board, I'm frustrated that the board we've 
got doesn't seem effective at communicating its purpose or much of anything 
else. They're bad at politics. If they were good at politics, you wouldn't be 
disagreeing with the idea of a board because you'd be thankful for the 
provision of a quality API and the decisive resolution of legal threats from 
trademark trolls.

For what it's worth, I was on the US OSMF board last year, and the most 
important thing I learned about myself is that I'm bad at politics, too, so I 
totally understand that this stuff is hard.

-mike.


michal migurski- contact info and pgp key:
sf/cahttp://mike.teczno.com/contact.html





___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Paweł's q: what can be done?

2013-02-03 Thread Frederik Ramm


Hi,

On 03.02.2013 12:36, Paweł Paprota wrote:

What I want right now is some sign that OSM is not fading away as a
project.


Shouldn't this be the other way round - shouldn't somebody who claims 
that OSM was about to fade away have proof for that?


Number of users raising:

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/images/thumb/7/78/Osmdbstats1_log.png/800px-Osmdbstats1_log.png

Number of active users raising:

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/images/thumb/c/c7/Osmdbstats4A.png/800px-Osmdbstats4A.png

Amount of data raising:

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/images/thumb/e/e3/Osmdbstats2.png/800px-Osmdbstats2.png

Constantly talked about in the press:

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/In_the_media

I'm sorry but I don't see any reason for gloom. Maybe you have read the 
wrong blogs to fear that OSM will soon be forgotten ;)



And no, we just need time to think it over written by OSMF
board member is not what I'm looking for.

For me the next 6-8 months will be make or break for OSM(F).


As I said, such impatience is unusual and unwarranted. The next 6-8 
months are certainly not going to make or break OSM or OSMF; I really 
don't know where that idea comes from.


Strategic thinking is long-term thinking, and in our case requires to 
get a lot of pepole on board in a suitable process, including those who 
think that we shouldn't have a strategy (we can't just kick them out and 
say ok then we'll have a strategy without you - we have to convince 
them that having a strategy is good). This not only is a lot of work but 
also requires the political skills that Mike Migurski mentioned. I'm 
confident that all these things are going to happen in due course, but 
it is very unlikely that in due course means in 6-8 months.


Bye
Frederik

--
Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail frede...@remote.org  ##  N49°00'09 E008°23'33

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Paweł's q: what can be done?

2013-02-03 Thread Jeff Meyer

To answer your first question, I do. Others have voiced the same opinion -
they'd like to see some organization, to know that their efforts are being
applied for the most benefit. Your voice is noted, but there should be room
for disagreement, no?

One of the goals of a strategic exercise would be to test your thesis
whether OSM's (and the OSMF's) damn good job so far, is damn good
enough to continue to survive and thrive. The thesis that an organizing
board reduces a community of thousands to the views of a handful seems
contrary to what has gone on with many other successful OS projects.



On Sun, Feb 3, 2013 at 12:57 AM, Robin Paulson ro...@bumblepuppy.orgwrote:

 On 2013-02-03 07:41, Jeff Meyer wrote:

 was: geocoding trademark thread

 I think Paweł has hit on a key question: does the OSMF have plans to
 operate and lead OSM in a more efficient, organized manner or not?


 what makes you think anyone wants to be lead, i certainly don't? or wants
 to be organised from above? we're all fully functional human beings,
 perfectly capable of organising ourselves, and doing a damn good job so far
 - look at where OSM and most other digital commons projects have got
 through self-organising.

 i disagree with any idea of a board, i think it's utterly wrong, it
 reduces a community of thousands to the views a handful of people can put
 across.

 --
 robin

 http://**universitywithoutconditions.**ac.nzhttp://universitywithoutconditions.ac.nz-
  Auckland's Free University


 __**_
 talk mailing list
 talk@openstreetmap.org
 http://lists.openstreetmap.**org/listinfo/talkhttp://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk




-- 
Jeff Meyer
Global World History Atlas
www.gwhat.org
j...@gwhat.org
206-676-2347
http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/jeffmeyer osm: Historical
OSMhttp://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Historical_OSM
 / my OSM user page http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/jeffmeyer
 t: @GWHAThistory https://twitter.com/GWHAThistory
 f: GWHAThistory https://www.facebook.com/GWHAThistory
___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Paweł's q: what can be done?

2013-02-03 Thread Richard Fairhurst

Michal Migurski wrote:
 We seem to have an OSMF that's not effective at communicating

I tried :(

FWIW Communications Working Group is very good, just under-resourced. There
needs to be more of them, and they need to be given the space to thrive
without interference.

cheers
Richard

(ex-board, ex-CWG)





--
View this message in context: 
http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/Pawe-s-q-what-can-be-done-tp5747772p5747915.html
Sent from the General Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Paweł's q: what can be done?

2013-02-03 Thread Paweł Paprota


On 02/03/2013 07:35 PM, Frederik Ramm wrote:

Hi,

On 03.02.2013 12:36, Paweł Paprota wrote:

What I want right now is some sign that OSM is not fading away as a
project.


Shouldn't this be the other way round - shouldn't somebody who
claims that OSM was about to fade away have proof for that?

Number of users raising:
(...)

I'm sorry but I don't see any reason for gloom. Maybe you have read
the wrong blogs to fear that OSM will soon be forgotten ;)



Nice way to interpret the data :-) Look closer and not only if the
charts are rising and you can see a different picture:

Number of users grew from 500k to 1M since some time in 2011 until
January 2013:

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:Osmdbstats1_users.png

At the same time the percentage of (highly) active users is falling
since at least 2009 and this number is now below 2%.

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:Osmdbstats8.png
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:Osmdbstats4A.png

On the developer side of things, look at the git log and what's been
going on in the last several months. How many Top Ten Tasks have been
accomplished in 2012 from those that were planned? Now think why this
number is so low.

I don't know much about CWG but I trust Richard when he says they are
understaffed/under-resourced and proper communication and PR is
probably one of the most important things right now that the project
should be doing.



As I said, such impatience is unusual and unwarranted. The next 6-8
months are certainly not going to make or break OSM or OSMF; I
really don't know where that idea comes from.



That's your opinion, I have a different one and know at least a couple
of people who think alike. Certainly if nothing is done in 6-8 months
then OSM is not going to vanish. It's just my personal timeframe, the
time I'm willing to invest into developing and helping with other matters.


Strategic thinking is long-term thinking, and in our case requires
to get a lot of pepole on board in a suitable process, including
those who think that we shouldn't have a strategy (we can't just kick
them out and say ok then we'll have a strategy without you - we
have to convince them that having a strategy is good). This not only
is a lot of work but also requires the political skills that Mike
Migurski mentioned. I'm confident that all these things are going to
happen in due course, but it is very unlikely that in due course
means in 6-8 months.



Seriously? 6-8 months is not enough time to put together such 
initiative? What do you plan on doing all this time?


Paweł

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Paweł's q: what can be done?

2013-02-03 Thread Simon Poole


Am 03.02.2013 20:42, schrieb Paweł Paprota:

.
Nice way to interpret the data :-) Look closer and not only if the
charts are rising and you can see a different picture:

Number of users grew from 500k to 1M since some time in 2011 until
January 2013:

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:Osmdbstats1_users.png

At the same time the percentage of (highly) active users is falling
since at least 2009 and this number is now below 2%.

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:Osmdbstats8.png
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:Osmdbstats4A.png


A relative decrease in active mappers is what you would expect as the 
result of us casting our net further (which can be seen in the 
accelerated growth of accounts) , and I fully expect it to decrease more 
as we reach out to groups that we haven't approached before.


Naturally in absolute terms the numbers are increasing, just as would be 
expected, see http://osmstats.altogetherlost.com/index.php?item=members 
These are the really important numbers and those that we want to grow.


Simon



___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Paweł's q: what can be done?

2013-02-03 Thread Frederik Ramm


Hi,

On 03.02.2013 20:42, Paweł Paprota wrote:

At the same time the percentage of (highly) active users is falling
since at least 2009 and this number is now below 2%.


Seeing the number of highly active mappers rise would mean that we have 
a small number of mappers doing a lot of work; the number falling means 
that work is distributed among more people. I think that's good.



On the developer side of things, look at the git log and what's been
going on in the last several months. How many Top Ten Tasks have been
accomplished in 2012 from those that were planned? Now think why this
number is so low.


I don't know exactly what git log you mean. OSM is a whole universe of 
software; a part of that is visible on 
https://github.com/openstreetmap/. The bit that is on 
https://github.com/openstreetmap/openstreetmap-website is but a tiny 
fragment of it. The number of Top Ten Tasks completed would only be 
suitable if you had something to compare it to (in 2011 we managed to 
close 4 tasks but not a single one in 2012 or so).


In fact you are the *first* person who actually proclaims doom for OSM 
because not enough of these tasks have been completed.


I think one must be thankful that you joined after the license change 
was through else you'd have spent three years telling us that we're 
doomed because it takes so long ;)



I don't know much about CWG but I trust Richard when he says they are
understaffed/under-resourced and proper communication and PR is
probably one of the most important things right now that the project
should be doing.


Well, yes, communication is important; CWG should have more people and 
we've just lost someone who thought up great things like switch2osm.org 
- but you make it sound like the house is on fire and if things don't 
change within half a year everything will be lost and I can assure you 
that OSM won't fade into oblivion just because we put out less press 
releases than we could.



That's your opinion, I have a different one and know at least a couple
of people who think alike. Certainly if nothing is done in 6-8 months
then OSM is not going to vanish.


That's relieving to hear ;)


Strategic thinking is long-term thinking, and in our case requires
to get a lot of pepole on board in a suitable process, including
those who think that we shouldn't have a strategy (we can't just kick
them out and say ok then we'll have a strategy without you - we
have to convince them that having a strategy is good). This not only
is a lot of work but also requires the political skills that Mike
Migurski mentioned. I'm confident that all these things are going to
happen in due course, but it is very unlikely that in due course
means in 6-8 months.



Seriously? 6-8 months is not enough time to put together such
initiative? What do you plan on doing all this time?


The OSMF board consists of six people who have a day job, a private 
life, who are mappers or coders or doing other OSM related things in 
their spare time - and on top of that they do OSMF board work. This 
board work comprises taking part in meetings, handling inquiries by 
third parties, handling legal issues like the one that spawned this 
thread, talking to lawyers, doing finances, planning conferences, 
handling OSMF membership, and a lot more. Some of these tasks are taken 
on by individual board members and therefore don't concern the whole 
board a lot, but even then there's reporting and discussion.


One of the things we're working on (see the November 03 board minutes 
plus some of the later ones) is to install a Management Team that 
would take some of the workload off the shoulders of the board, freeing 
up some space for more strategic or at least more forward-looking 
tasks; among them are work on the Articles of Association (mentioned in 
Dec 18 minutes) and sorting out intellectual property issues 
(trademark registration mentioned in Jan 29 minutes) with the aim of 
coming up with guidelines on the use of our name.


There are only so many hours in a day and only so many hours that OSMF 
board members are able to spend on board work. Especially when 
strategic stuff is concerned, board members wouldn't only have to 
discuss things among themselves, they would also have to talk to other 
stakeholders in OSM, get them on board, set up a process and all that.


Of course I could sit down on my own and write up a the future of OSMF 
document in an evening, and if I do it well it might be nice starting 
point for a discussion, but not more.


These issues take time and if you don't believe me, you're free to stand 
for election at the next SOTM conference, and then you can be the person 
to explain to the eager young folk on the mailing list why things move 
so slowly ;)


Bye
Frederik

--
Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail frede...@remote.org  ##  N49°00'09 E008°23'33

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Recent edits in the wiki / Trademark issue

Simon Poole writes:
  As you may have noticed we have removed all links displaying the Google
  geocoding service from the wiki. These changes are a consequence of a
  legal issue with respect to the trademark GEOCODE owned by Geocode, Inc.
  of Alexandria, Virginia, USA.

WRONG, and FAIL. First, it's not your job to enforce somebody else's
trademark. Since you didn't tell us, I can only speculate that the
OSMF received a demand letter. If so, then SURELY the letter contains
advice for the generic term for geocode. If the letter did not
contain such a term, then you should write back to the authors of the
demand letter saying Surely we have no intention of infringing your
trademark, so please tell us what is the generic term for geocoding? 
This should be a term which uniquely identifies the service for which
you claim geocode is a trademark for. Until you tell us this, we
intend to take no action, but as a good faith measure, once you tell
us, we will act as promptly as humanly possible to ensure that we do
not infringe your trademark.

The way trademarks work (and it surely seems that the OSMF is ignorant
of this hence your actions) is that a trademark is an *adjective*
modifying a *noun*. Thus, it is a Ford automobile, or an Apple
computer. Ford is the adjective, automobile is the generic
noun. Anybody is free to use the generic noun. (Or in the case of
services, adverb/verb).

Honestly, it's like you never talked to a lawyer about this.

  If you find use of the term geocode on our wiki or help site
  please replace it with a generic term (for example search), or
  report it to my e-mail address.

WRONG and FAIL. search is not the generic term for geocode. The
two actions are in no way related. A better term but still inadequate
for the task is translation, since the action translates from one
addressing system into another.

The generic term for geocode seems to be, without any further advice
from the trademark holder, geocode. I imagine that a generic term
could be geographical encoding, or geocode for short. Oh, oops,
trademark infringing. How about geographical translation?
Oh, oops, GeoTran.com exists, so they probably think that
geographical translation infringes their trademark.

What IS the generic term that geocode trademarks??? Surely the
trademark holder knows!!! The OSMF should ask them.

  Both the use of the term geocode and the use of the Google API are
  merely incidental to us.

If the Google API contains a word claimed as a trademark, I would be
happy to create a gateway which uses but does not make public the
infringing trademark. You could link to that using a generic term like
geocode or geographical address translation, as you wish.

  Please address any questions on the matter to me by e-mail

CC'ed.

-- 
--my blog is athttp://blog.russnelson.com
Crynwr supports open source software
521 Pleasant Valley Rd. | +1 315-600-8815
Potsdam, NY 13676-3213  | Sheepdog   

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Recent edits in the wiki / Trademark issue

Richard Fairhurst writes:
  Jean-Marc Liotier wrote:
   Why is Openstreetmap yielding to such blatant appropriation of 
   the English language ?
  
  Because we have bigger battles to fight. Let Google piss their money away on
  defending the term geocode. If OSM has $1m to spend, which it doesn't, I'd
  rather it spent it on making the site easier to use and attracting more
  mappers, rather than throwing lawyers at a trademark troll.

Exactly. There are much bigger fish in this pond, and once they crush
these idiots, geocode will be a generic term again. It hurts us, but
it's not a problem we need to solve.

On the other hand, there is no generic term for geocode NOW, so our
position should be, until advised otherwise, that geocode is the
generic term for geocode. And once advised otherwise, we will
promptly knuckle under, as is appropriate for a small fish.

-- 
--my blog is athttp://blog.russnelson.com
Crynwr supports open source software
521 Pleasant Valley Rd. | +1 315-600-8815
Potsdam, NY 13676-3213  | Sheepdog   

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Recent edits in the wiki / Trademark issue

Having read some more on this issue, I think the board has done the
right thing. Apologies to anyone offended.

Christopher Woods (IWD) writes:
  On 02/02/2013 21:01, Aun Yngve Johnsen wrote:
   This discussion is way out of hand. You guys screaming for publishing the 
   C+D, didn't you see the answer from SimonPoole? They have asked lawyers 
   about advise in publishing it, as well as releasing more information about 
   it. It is not a sign of weak leadership to ask for legal advise in a case 
   that can be as hairy as trademark and copyright issues.

  I'm extremely interested to see what in the notice specifies that the TM 
  holder believes that they can pursue and control usage when mentioned in 
  proximity of Google services.

Again, without access to the CD, is that in spite of having allowed
generic usage of geocode for the last 12 years since their trademark
was granted, they now claim that geocode in the context of a Google
geocoding URL is a trademark infringement. As Chris says, risible.

Deleting our links to the Google URL is the correct thing to do,
because there is no way to link to that service without infringing
their trademark (claim).

My offer to create a non-infringing gateway stands.

  Redacting or editing directly as a result of simply receiving a CD is 
  not an ideal first step. Does OSM consider itself to be in breach of 
  something discussed in the CD or that it has actually done something 
  wrong? I unequivocally believe the opposite to be true - and that 
  Geocode Inc. is misrepresenting the situation.

The problem is that it's not OSM infringing the trademark. It's *Google*.

-- 
--my blog is athttp://blog.russnelson.com
Crynwr supports open source software
521 Pleasant Valley Rd. | +1 315-600-8815
Potsdam, NY 13676-3213  | Sheepdog   

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Paweł's q: what can be done?

2013-02-03 Thread Clifford Snow

On Sun, Feb 3, 2013 at 10:35 AM, Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org wrote:

 Strategic thinking is long-term thinking, and in our case requires to get
 a lot of pepole on board in a suitable process, including those who think
 that we shouldn't have a strategy (we can't just kick them out and say ok
 then we'll have a strategy without you - we have to convince them that
 having a strategy is good). This not only is a lot of work but also
 requires the political skills that Mike Migurski mentioned. I'm confident
 that all these things are going to happen in due course, but it is very
 unlikely that in due course means in 6-8 months.


Frederik,
I want to make sure we are clear. Are you signaling your belief that we
need some strategic planning? If so that's good news. Just the planning to
do a Strategic Plan is a lot of work. Can you take to the OSMF Board a
proposal that we need to initiate a committee that will start the planning
and possibly run a Strategic Planning process? Personally I'd like someone
like Steve Coast head this effort up but I can't speak for him or his
availability.

I also agree with you that OSM isn't going to break any time soon. If OSM
can survive the licensing change, it can even survive a strategic planning
process.

-- 
Clifford

OpenStreetMap: Maps with a human touch
___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Recent edits in the wiki / Trademark issue

Simon Poole writes:
  I've taken the time and at least on more or less current pages have
  redone the edits with a bit a finer brush, essentially with a very small
  number of exceptions there should be no noticeable impact on actual
  content now.

  I'm reaching out to our counsel to see if we can release the CD, but
  IMHO it is unlikely. Further I know that the statement has caused some
  unease and questions about problematic/unproblematic use of the term in
  question and the scope of our request to refrain from using it, I will
  again see if we can issue a clarifying statement on that.

There's a simple way to get a copy of the CD -- just publish the
Google Geocoding URL. Like this:

http://www.osolaw.com/areas-of-practice/professional-liability/2-uncategorised?format=feedtype=atom

-- 
--my blog is athttp://blog.russnelson.com
Crynwr supports open source software
521 Pleasant Valley Rd. | +1 315-600-8815
Potsdam, NY 13676-3213  | Sheepdog   

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Recent edits in the wiki / Trademark issue

Stefan Keller writes:
  Just for the curious of this ridiculous U.S. trademark thing:
  I found another company claiming GEOCODE as trademark:
  http://www.markhound.com/trademark/search/WbEfGtOgm
  And I'm wondering what these 65 services will do
  http://www.programmableweb.com/apitag/geocoding
  especially TomTom with it's geocode.com domain...

Okay, quick explanation of the US trademark system, particularly since
it differs dramatically from the European system.

In the U.S. *anybody* can claim that they have a trademark on
something, and they can bring that claim against an infringer to a
court of law, and present evidence in their favor of that claim, and
of course the supposed infringer can present evidence supporting
various theories that they aren't infringing.

You can also, as an independent but related action, seek a
registration of your trademark. That puts people on notice that you
intend to defend your trademark in a court of law. It also serves as
some amount of evidence that you actually DO have a trademark because
you were the only party able to get a trademark in your field.

However, the trademark status rests on the court case, not the
registration. Until that court case is brought, a registration isn't
worth the paper it's printed on. Until you're sued, you don't know
whether a trademark is valid or not. And ... if you don't have a
lawyer on staff, you'd better plan on not finding out if a trademark
is valid or not.

-- 
--my blog is athttp://blog.russnelson.com
Crynwr supports open source software
521 Pleasant Valley Rd. | +1 315-600-8815
Potsdam, NY 13676-3213  | Sheepdog   

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Recent edits in the wiki / Trademark issue

2013-02-03 Thread Stefan Keller

Hi Russ

Thanks for the explanations.
I think I got that.
What most if us call absurd, is that (U.S.) patent offices let pass
common names as trademarks when verifying the formal requirements.
But what we're doing here is only plain guessing.
So let's wait what the lawyer in charge recommends and what the OSMF
then communicates.

-S.


2013/2/4 Russ Nelson nel...@crynwr.com:
 Stefan Keller writes:
   Just for the curious of this ridiculous U.S. trademark thing:
   I found another company claiming GEOCODE as trademark:
   http://www.markhound.com/trademark/search/WbEfGtOgm
   And I'm wondering what these 65 services will do
   http://www.programmableweb.com/apitag/geocoding
   especially TomTom with it's geocode.com domain...

 Okay, quick explanation of the US trademark system, particularly since
 it differs dramatically from the European system.

 In the U.S. *anybody* can claim that they have a trademark on
 something, and they can bring that claim against an infringer to a
 court of law, and present evidence in their favor of that claim, and
 of course the supposed infringer can present evidence supporting
 various theories that they aren't infringing.

 You can also, as an independent but related action, seek a
 registration of your trademark. That puts people on notice that you
 intend to defend your trademark in a court of law. It also serves as
 some amount of evidence that you actually DO have a trademark because
 you were the only party able to get a trademark in your field.

 However, the trademark status rests on the court case, not the
 registration. Until that court case is brought, a registration isn't
 worth the paper it's printed on. Until you're sued, you don't know
 whether a trademark is valid or not. And ... if you don't have a
 lawyer on staff, you'd better plan on not finding out if a trademark
 is valid or not.

 --
 --my blog is athttp://blog.russnelson.com
 Crynwr supports open source software
 521 Pleasant Valley Rd. | +1 315-600-8815
 Potsdam, NY 13676-3213  | Sheepdog

 ___
 talk mailing list
 talk@openstreetmap.org
 http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Paweł's q: what can be done?

2013-02-03 Thread Frederik Ramm


Hi,

On 03.02.2013 23:59, Clifford Snow wrote:

I want to make sure we are clear. Are you signaling your belief that we
need some strategic planning?


I'm hesitant to say yes because your sentence can mean a lot of 
different things to different people.


In the worst case, we need some strategic planning could be read as 
the OSMF should make plans for where OSM should be in ten years and the 
project should then follow. This is certainly not a view that I would 
subscribe to.


I tend to avoid the word strategic planning because it always sounds 
so gloriously important (and attracts those who like that). Used by the 
wrong people, the existence of strategic plans for OSM would make 
every mapper but a pawn in some grand scheme thought out by the 
glamourous architects without whom the project would be nothing. Nothing 
could be further from the truth and we must avoid to give people such an 
idea.


But of course it cannot hurt to think about the future together, try and 
predict the problems we might be facing in five years, and make plans to 
be prepared - rather than waiting for the problem to suddenly appear ;)


The 2011/2012 board has actually done some steps in that direction, with 
Mikel reaching out to a number of professional strategic consultants and 
getting a broad idea of what (if anything) they could possibly do for 
OSM(F). The results were mixed and my reading (I wasn't on the board at 
that time) was largely that with things as they are, we're not ready for 
such a step yet. If Mikel himself would like to say a few bits about this?


Having a strategy is good but trying to find one can tie up a lot of 
resources and personally I'm not sure if starting a committee is the 
right thing. I think that OSMF should first get their house in order (I 
mentioned several things reflected in the board minutes, like Management 
Team, Articles of Association etc.) and then hopefully we are in a 
position where the board of directors can spend more time thinking about 
strategic things, and then, much, much further down the line, maybe 
we'll even be in a position to fork out millions for a strategy 
consultant like Wikimedia did ;)


This is all baby steps right now and IMHO not something that will yield 
visible results in Pawel's desired half-year time frame. You have to 
match up your high-flying thoughts with what can acutally be achieved, 
and in the end OSM is about enthusiasts with their feet on the ground 
(or their hands on the keyboard) whom we have to give all the support we 
can.


Bye
Frederik

--
Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail frede...@remote.org  ##  N49°00'09 E008°23'33

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Recent edits in the wiki / Trademark issue

2013-02-03 Thread John F. Eldredge

Russ Nelson nel...@crynwr.com wrote:

 Having read some more on this issue, I think the board has done the
 right thing. Apologies to anyone offended.
 
 Christopher Woods (IWD) writes:
   On 02/02/2013 21:01, Aun Yngve Johnsen wrote:
   This discussion is way out of hand. You guys screaming for
 publishing the C+D, didn't you see the answer from SimonPoole? They
 have asked lawyers about advise in publishing it, as well as releasing
 more information about it. It is not a sign of weak leadership to ask
 for legal advise in a case that can be as hairy as trademark and
 copyright issues.
 
  I'm extremely interested to see what in the notice specifies that
 the TM 
  holder believes that they can pursue and control usage when
 mentioned in 
   proximity of Google services.
 
 Again, without access to the CD, is that in spite of having allowed
 generic usage of geocode for the last 12 years since their trademark
 was granted, they now claim that geocode in the context of a Google
 geocoding URL is a trademark infringement. As Chris says, risible.
 
 Deleting our links to the Google URL is the correct thing to do,
 because there is no way to link to that service without infringing
 their trademark (claim).
 
 My offer to create a non-infringing gateway stands.
 
  Redacting or editing directly as a result of simply receiving a CD
 is 
  not an ideal first step. Does OSM consider itself to be in breach of
 
  something discussed in the CD or that it has actually done
 something 
   wrong? I unequivocally believe the opposite to be true - and that 
   Geocode Inc. is misrepresenting the situation.
 
 The problem is that it's not OSM infringing the trademark. It's
 *Google*.

If they have, indeed, allowed the generic use of the term geocode for 12 
years without challenging it, then I believe that, under US law, the term is 
now legally classed as generic, and can be used by anyone.  According to 
http://itlaw.wikia.com/wiki/Trademark_infringement, while there is no Federal 
law explicitly stating a statute of limitations, one Federal court decided that 
such cases were subject to the general five-year limit for non-capital offenses 
under Title 18 of the US Code.  Usually, the Federal courts follow the 
precedents set by the most similar state case.

-- 
John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com
Reserve your right to think, for even to think wrongly is better than not to 
think at all. -- Hypatia of Alexandria


___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

[OSM-talk] Strategic planning for OSM (History)

2013-02-03 Thread Richard Weait

There is a Strategic Working Group, now dormant, in the OSMF.  It was
created with the intent of planning for the future and providing
recommendations to the board and management team.  Those interested first
met on line on the strategic@[2] mailing list in May 2010, then in person,
at State of the Map - Girona, in July 2010.

Minutes from SWG meetings[3] exist from November 2010 to December 2011,
along with attendance and irc logs.

The major accomplishments that I recall from SWG were the guest tile
policy, and the AoA subcommittee.  SWG established a method by which tile
sets (rendering styles, from a non-OSMF server) could be evaluated for
inclusion in the layer switcher on osm.org[4].  This was a matter of some
interest on the mailing lists, at the time.  The AoA subcommittee examined
the foundation articles of association for revision and refinement.

There were discussions of various other topics, including what do do about
the osm.org web page.  That's a topic that was hardly ever discussed,
before, or since.  :-)

The future SWG will face some of the same challenges as the previous
version.  IMHO.  Firstly, OSM can mean different things to different
people.  We are a diverse bunch.  SWG is unlikely to put every diverse
interest as first priority in their planning and advice.  Secondly,
attendance will continue to be a challenge.  Thirdly, the work is without
glamour and for little reward; advice from those non-first priority
interests will be offered vigorously and often.  Fourthly, the worthwhile
accomplishments will be more time-consuming.

The members of future SWG will see the same benefits that members of other
OSMF Working Groups see.  Firstly, they'll get regular contact with
awesome, committed, thoughtful, clever, OSM contributors from diverse
backgrounds with diverse interests.  Secondly, they'll get to collaborate
with those people on interesting questions and to provide worthy,
thoughtful potential answers.  Thirdly, they'll get to learn and share
their experiences.



[1] http://www.osmfoundation.org/wiki/Strategic_Working_Group
[2] http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/strategic
[3]
http://www.osmfoundation.org/wiki/Working_Group_Minutes#Strategic_Working_Group
[4]
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Strategic_working_group/New_Tile_Layer_Guidelines
___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Strategic planning for OSM (History)

2013-02-03 Thread Clifford Snow

On Sun, Feb 3, 2013 at 7:09 PM, Richard Weait rich...@weait.com wrote:



 The future SWG will face some of the same challenges as the previous
 version.  IMHO.  Firstly, OSM can mean different things to different
 people.  We are a diverse bunch.  SWG is unlikely to put every diverse
 interest as first priority in their planning and advice.  Secondly,
 attendance will continue to be a challenge.  Thirdly, the work is without
 glamour and for little reward; advice from those non-first priority
 interests will be offered vigorously and often.  Fourthly, the worthwhile
 accomplishments will be more time-consuming.


It is of the upmost importance to understand what OSM means to our
contributors, OSM developers, to those developing third party applications,
and those who rely on the map. Once we have that understanding, then we can
move to the second step, deciding what we want to look like. How we
communicate both within and external to OSM. How we attract new
contributors, developers, etc. Possibly even the look and feel of the
osm.org website.. The third step is to develop a strategy to get there. And
finally, execute the strategy. But without first understanding people needs
and desires, we should not rush to implement.


 The members of future SWG will see the same benefits that members of other
 OSMF Working Groups see.  Firstly, they'll get regular contact with
 awesome, committed, thoughtful, clever, OSM contributors from diverse
 backgrounds with diverse interests.  Secondly, they'll get to collaborate
 with those people on interesting questions and to provide worthy,
 thoughtful potential answers.  Thirdly, they'll get to learn and share
 their experiences.


Actually, just everyday interactions with the people involved with OSM show
me how clever, committed and determined they are.  But I do understand
where you are coming from.

-- 
Clifford

OpenStreetMap: Maps with a human touch
___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Paweł's q: what can be done?

2013-02-03 Thread Kai Krueger

Clifford Snow wrote
 Frederik,
 I want to make sure we are clear. Are you signaling your belief that we
 need some strategic planning?

Well, what does strategic planning even mean in the context of OSMF?

OSMF currently operates under the strategy of keeping its influence pretty
much as minimal as somehow possible. It mostly limits it self to operating
the servers for the editing api and publishing a weekly planet dump.
Everything else is kind of outside of the scope of the OSMF and to be
provided by third parties. This strategy is implemented to such a degree
that e.g. not even planet extracts to make the unwieldy monolithic planet
file usable  are provided by OSMF but by third parties. It operates under
the strategy that anything that can conceivably be provided by third parties
should.

OSMF does not e.g. fund software development, it does very limited to no
funding of outreach or PR, it does not provide any (or very limited) client
applications / services. State of the Map is probably the only major
exception to this rule and people have proposed to move that out of the
scope of OSMF too, as has successfully been done with organizing the
regional State of the Map conferences. All of that can be (and is) done
without the involvement of the OSMF.

For example funded Software development has been done by companies like
CloudMade, MapQuest on a company budget, or Mapbox that applied for external
funding through the Knight foundation to develop OpenStreetMap software like
e.g. the iD editor.

Developer resources like Toolservers have for example been provided by third
parties like the German Chapter, US Chapter or the French Chapter, or
Wikimedia through the OSM toolserver, or through Rambler or probably a
number of others I have forgotten.

PR resources have been provided to the community by yet more third party
sources, like e.g. some of the offers of Geofabrik to print PR materials to
use in various ways like e.g. to man booths on trade shows.

Outreach has been done by yet more third parties like e.g. H.O.T. or like
the community ambassador programs of CloudMade.

So again the strategy of OSMF has been to not pick winners or loosers to
use a political term but let the community a free hand in anything that
isn't absolutely necessary to centralize, which covers the servers necessary
for the editing API, protecting the core data in the database and legal
issues like the license, copy right violations and trandemark issues).

Personally I am not the biggest fan of this rather libertarian approach, but
it is a perfectly valid strategy for OSMF to take and which approach would
ultimately lead to more success for OSM is pretty much impossible to
factually determine and is thus left to personal opinion and controversial
political debate.

Under this premises what would strategic planning for the OSMF look like?
Well, it would pretty much be an extremely technical discussion about the
scalability of the server hardware. Although that might be a fascinating
topic for some, I doubt that is what is meant by strategic planning in this
debate and I don't really see any issues with that at the moment.

In that light, one can also see the success and failure of the previous
attempts of the SWG. As Richard pointed out, one of the successes of the
SWG was to establish a policy of inclusion of third party tiles in the layer
chooser. Although I think it was an important achievement, and as a member
of the SWG at the time helped formulate it, I wouldn't directly call that
strategic planning. Most other topics successfully handled were also
pretty short sighted technical aspects if I remember correctly. But that
is at least partly because there simply isn't any scope for strategic
planning in the current model of the OSMF.

So anyone who wants to do any strategic planning must first of all
massively expand the resources, scope and responsibilities of OSMF. However,
given that OSMF already even with its extremely limited scope of
responsibilities suffers under a massive trust issues where far too many
active members of the OSM community seem to find a huge conspiracy theory in
each action OSMF takes, I don't see how a big expansion of responsibilities
of the OSMF would be accepted by the community without hugely costly and
probably damaging political fights.

The alternative is to do these strategic planes outside of the OSMF, e.g.
in one of the local chapters or topic specific groups like H.O.T. Nothing
stops them from devising great and strategically thought out PR campaigns.
No one stops them from providing valuable resources that have been
identified as strategically important for the growth of OSM. No one stops
them from fund raising to support those activities (although there are some
possibly unresolved issues with the use of the OpenStreetMap trademark in
those PR and fund raising activities). No one stops them from developing
those killer application that will make everyone want to use and contribute
to OSM. It is

Re: [OSM-talk] How to create very large jpeg from OSM file

2013-02-03 Thread Tanveer Singh

Thanks robert. I am an active VIKING user. But the usability of this big
map download seems to be limited. If I zoom out a zoom level 9 but want to
download level 14 jpg of a pre selected area, I am unable to do so easily.




On Fri, Feb 1, 2013 at 11:06 PM, Robert Norris rw_nor...@hotmail.comwrote:


 
  Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] How to create very large jpeg from OSM file
 
  If any of the available tile set styles are suitable, simply download
  the tiles, at the desired zoom level, for your area of interest, stitch
  together with a tool such as gdalmerge, outputting to a jpg, and print.

 This is also possible with the GUI program Viking (
 http://sourceforge.net/projects/viking).

 Once you have downloaded map tiles for the area, use the File-Generate
 Image File option.

 ATM This is restricted to 5000x5000, although in the next version the
 limits are substantially increased**.

 HTH.

 ** Disclaimer - this is because I (re)wrote it.

 Be Seeing You - Rob.
 If at first you don't succeed,
 then skydiving isn't for you.
 ___
 talk mailing list
 talk@openstreetmap.org
 http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Recent edits in the wiki / Trademark issue

2013-02-03 Thread Stefan Keller

Hi John

I think some EU countries (and Switzerland) also have this 5 years rule.
But I'm not a professional lawyer.
If anybody is, then I suggest that he could offer his services to the
OSMF as a volunteer (e.g. for a 2nd opinion).

Yours, Stefan


2013/2/4 John F. Eldredge j...@jfeldredge.com:
 Russ Nelson nel...@crynwr.com wrote:

 Having read some more on this issue, I think the board has done the
 right thing. Apologies to anyone offended.

 Christopher Woods (IWD) writes:
   On 02/02/2013 21:01, Aun Yngve Johnsen wrote:
   This discussion is way out of hand. You guys screaming for
 publishing the C+D, didn't you see the answer from SimonPoole? They
 have asked lawyers about advise in publishing it, as well as releasing
 more information about it. It is not a sign of weak leadership to ask
 for legal advise in a case that can be as hairy as trademark and
 copyright issues.

  I'm extremely interested to see what in the notice specifies that
 the TM
  holder believes that they can pursue and control usage when
 mentioned in
   proximity of Google services.

 Again, without access to the CD, is that in spite of having allowed
 generic usage of geocode for the last 12 years since their trademark
 was granted, they now claim that geocode in the context of a Google
 geocoding URL is a trademark infringement. As Chris says, risible.

 Deleting our links to the Google URL is the correct thing to do,
 because there is no way to link to that service without infringing
 their trademark (claim).

 My offer to create a non-infringing gateway stands.

  Redacting or editing directly as a result of simply receiving a CD
 is
  not an ideal first step. Does OSM consider itself to be in breach of

  something discussed in the CD or that it has actually done
 something
   wrong? I unequivocally believe the opposite to be true - and that
   Geocode Inc. is misrepresenting the situation.

 The problem is that it's not OSM infringing the trademark. It's
 *Google*.

 If they have, indeed, allowed the generic use of the term geocode for 12 
 years without challenging it, then I believe that, under US law, the term is 
 now legally classed as generic, and can be used by anyone.  According to 
 http://itlaw.wikia.com/wiki/Trademark_infringement, while there is no 
 Federal law explicitly stating a statute of limitations, one Federal court 
 decided that such cases were subject to the general five-year limit for 
 non-capital offenses under Title 18 of the US Code.  Usually, the Federal 
 courts follow the precedents set by the most similar state case.

 --
 John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com
 Reserve your right to think, for even to think wrongly is better than not to 
 think at all. -- Hypatia of Alexandria


 ___
 talk mailing list
 talk@openstreetmap.org
 http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [talk-au] network and route tags

2013-02-03 Thread Barker, Nicholas

Updates on opencyclemap have been vastly improved I've noticed. In line with 
the normal map updates more or less*

Sent from my iPhone

On 31/01/2013, at 10:38 PM, Steve Bennett stevag...@gmail.com wrote:

 On Thu, Jan 31, 2013 at 9:33 PM, David Clark dbcl...@fastmail.com.au wrote:
 Ok I've changed route=mtb to mtb=yes for the trail itself. That fixes the
 issue I had with the route side of this so that's great.
 
 Using this approach an mtb trail (singletrack) looks the same as a cycle
 path (paved commuter path). Is this correct?
 
 Looks the same in what? Mapnik? I'm not sure - mapnik may treat
 highway=path; bicycle=yes as equivalent to highway=cycleway.
 They'll probably look different in opencyclemap, if and when that ever
 gets updated again.
 
 Steve
 
 ___
 Talk-au mailing list
 Talk-au@openstreetmap.org
 http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au

__
NOTICE: This communication and any attachments (this message) may contain 
confidential information for the sole use of the intended recipient(s). Any 
unauthorized use, disclosure, viewing, copying, alteration, dissemination or 
distribution of, or reliance on this message is strictly prohibited. If you 
have received this message in error, or you are not an authorized recipient, 
please notify the sender immediately by replying to this message, delete this 
message and all copies from your e-mail system and destroy any printed copies.

___
Talk-au mailing list
Talk-au@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au

Re: [talk-au] network and route tags

2013-02-03 Thread David Clark

I was looking at Opencyclemap rather than mapnik, but the data has
updated now and the mtb trails look different to the cycle paths so
it's all good for me I think.

Now I'm trying to work out how to include a section of a way in a
route.

ie I have a route (The Mawson trail) that passes along a section of a
fire road, but it doesn't pass along the full length of the fire road.
How do a I select only a section of the fire road (not the full length
of it) so I can make the relationship to the route?

Sorry for the scope creep of my original post.

David

- Original message -
From: Barker, Nicholas [1]nbar...@pb.com.au
To: Barker, Nicholas [2]nbar...@pb.com.au
Cc: [3]dbcl...@fastmail.com.au [4]dbcl...@fastmail.com.au,
talk-au [5]talk-au@openstreetmap.org
Subject: Re: [talk-au] network and route tags
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2013 09:40:12 +

Updates on opencyclemap have been vastly improved I've noticed. In line
with the normal map updates more or less*

Sent from my iPhone

On 31/01/2013, at 10:38 PM, Steve Bennett [6]stevag...@gmail.com
wrote:

On Thu, Jan 31, 2013 at 9:33 PM, David Clark
[7]dbcl...@fastmail.com.au wrote:

Ok I've changed route=mtb to mtb=yes for the trail itself. That fixes
the

issue I had with the route side of this so that's great.



Using this approach an mtb trail (singletrack) looks the same as a
cycle

path (paved commuter path). Is this correct?



Looks the same in what? Mapnik? I'm not sure - mapnik may treat

highway=path; bicycle=yes as equivalent to highway=cycleway.

They'll probably look different in opencyclemap, if and when that ever

gets updated again.



Steve



___

Talk-au mailing list

[8]Talk-au@openstreetmap.org

[9]http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au


__
NOTICE: This communication and any attachments (this message) may
contain confidential information for the sole use of the intended
recipient(s). Any unauthorized use, disclosure, viewing, copying,
alteration, dissemination or distribution of, or reliance on this
message
is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message in error, or
you are not an authorized recipient, please notify the sender
immediately
by replying to this message, delete this message and all copies from
your
e-mail system and destroy any printed copies.

References

1. mailto:nbar...@pb.com.au
2. mailto:nbar...@pb.com.au
3. mailto:dbcl...@fastmail.com.au
4. mailto:dbcl...@fastmail.com.au
5. mailto:talk-au@openstreetmap.org
6. mailto:stevag...@gmail.com
7. mailto:dbcl...@fastmail.com.au
8. mailto:Talk-au@openstreetmap.org
9. http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
___
Talk-au mailing list
Talk-au@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au

[talk-au] Adding only part of a road to a route relation (was: network and route tags)

2013-02-03 Thread SomeoneElse


On 03/02/2013 12:22, David Clark wrote:
ie I have a route (The Mawson trail) that passes along a section of a 
fire road, but it doesn't pass along the full length of the fire road. 
How do a I select only a section of the fire road (not the full length 
of it) so I can make the relationship to the route?




You'd need to cut the fire road into 2 (or perhaps 3) and then add the 
relation to only the relevant bit.  In Potlatch (the online editor on 
the OSM website) you can do this by clicking on the node that you want 
to split it at and pressing x.


Here's an example (not in Australia, but the same principle applies):

http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=53.13304lon=-1.78357zoom=16layers=C

Here Highfield Lane is split into two.  The eastern part is added to 
the relation for cycle route 54; the western part isn't.


Cheers,
Andy

___
Talk-au mailing list
Talk-au@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au

Re: [Talk-br] Relação errada

2013-02-03 Thread Eduardo Nunes

Ola pessoal,

Por que ainda vejo o município de Formosa nas buscas de locais que ficam no
Distrito Federal?
Veja: http://nominatim.openstreetmap.org/details.php?place_id=3678338392

O problema não foi corrigido?



Em terça-feira, 1 de janeiro de 2013, Vitor Georgevitor.geo...@gmail.com
escreveu:
 Fala Eduardo,
 O problema parece ser que segmentos do polígono da fronteira do DF foram
unidos em um só, e isso confundiu as relações que tratam dos limites do DF
e de Formosa.
 Dividi novamente o polígono do DF e editei a relação de Formosa para que
tenha somente as partes que compõem as fronteiras.
 Agora deve estar bem para Formosa, mas os outros municípios fronteiriços
estão com problemas e devem ser revisados.
 Será necessário dividir o polígono do DF com a parcela de fronteira com
cada município, e adicionar os segmentos em cada relação de fronteiras.
 Se você quiser resolver este problema, a melhor ferramenta que conheço é
o JOSM. Quando você clica sobre um elemento no mapa do JOSM, na janela
Propriedades aparecem as relações às quais pertence o elemento. Clicando
duas vezes em um relação, abrirá uma janela de edição de relações, onde
você poderá ver os elementos desta relação e aí verificar se há alguma
coisa faltando ou sobrando, e organizar a ordem de elementos na relação.
 Este é um tipo de edição bastante avançada de dados do OSM, se tiver
dúvidas, poste aqui na lista.
 Vitor George
 mapaslivres.org
 twitter.com/mapaslivres



 Vitor George
 mapaslivres.org
 twitter.com/mapaslivres


 2013/1/1 Eduardo Nunes e...@ymail.com

 Aun,

 Obrigado

 Em 1 de janeiro de 2013 17:55, Eduardo Nunes e...@ymail.com escreveu:

 Isto é o Distrito Federal e não Formosa. Veja:
http://nominatim.openstreetmap.org/details.php?place_id=97945019

 Em 1 de janeiro de 2013 17:35, Eduardo Nunes e...@ymail.com escreveu:

 Olá pessoal,

 A relação que delimita o município de Formosa está errada, pois está
englobando todo o Distrito Federal.
 Veja: http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/relation/334565

 Eu não sei como corrigir o problema. Alguém com mais experiência
poderia ver isto?

 Observe que essa escola fica na cidade de Ceilândia DF, mas está
aparecendo como se estivesse em Formosa.
  http://nominatim.openstreetmap.org/details.php?place_id=50296138



 ___
 Talk-br mailing list
 Talk-br@openstreetmap.org
 http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-br



___
Talk-br mailing list
Talk-br@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-br

Re: [Talk-br] Relação errada

2013-02-03 Thread Aun Yngve Johnsen

Talvez, ou não, mas um nomero de serviços não autoalizando. Eu não sei se 
nominatim e efetuado desse problemo. Eu sei que coastline checker ja fui parado 
um bom tempo, e alguns outros serviços também mas não lembro o lista completo e 
não onde vi.

Aun Johnsen

On 3. feb. 2013, at 16:36, Eduardo Nunes e...@ymail.com wrote:

 Ola pessoal,
 
 Por que ainda vejo o município de Formosa nas buscas de locais que ficam no 
 Distrito Federal?
 Veja: http://nominatim.openstreetmap.org/details.php?place_id=3678338392
 
 O problema não foi corrigido?
 
 
 
 Em terça-feira, 1 de janeiro de 2013, Vitor Georgevitor.geo...@gmail.com 
 escreveu:
  Fala Eduardo,
  O problema parece ser que segmentos do polígono da fronteira do DF foram 
  unidos em um só, e isso confundiu as relações que tratam dos limites do DF 
  e de Formosa.
  Dividi novamente o polígono do DF e editei a relação de Formosa para que 
  tenha somente as partes que compõem as fronteiras. 
  Agora deve estar bem para Formosa, mas os outros municípios fronteiriços 
  estão com problemas e devem ser revisados.
  Será necessário dividir o polígono do DF com a parcela de fronteira com 
  cada município, e adicionar os segmentos em cada relação de fronteiras.
  Se você quiser resolver este problema, a melhor ferramenta que conheço é o 
  JOSM. Quando você clica sobre um elemento no mapa do JOSM, na janela 
  Propriedades aparecem as relações às quais pertence o elemento. Clicando 
  duas vezes em um relação, abrirá uma janela de edição de relações, onde 
  você poderá ver os elementos desta relação e aí verificar se há alguma 
  coisa faltando ou sobrando, e organizar a ordem de elementos na relação.
  Este é um tipo de edição bastante avançada de dados do OSM, se tiver 
  dúvidas, poste aqui na lista.
  Vitor George
  mapaslivres.org
  twitter.com/mapaslivres
 
 
 
  Vitor George
  mapaslivres.org
  twitter.com/mapaslivres
 
 
  2013/1/1 Eduardo Nunes e...@ymail.com
 
  Aun,
 
  Obrigado
 
  Em 1 de janeiro de 2013 17:55, Eduardo Nunes e...@ymail.com escreveu:
 
  Isto é o Distrito Federal e não Formosa. Veja: 
  http://nominatim.openstreetmap.org/details.php?place_id=97945019
 
  Em 1 de janeiro de 2013 17:35, Eduardo Nunes e...@ymail.com escreveu:
 
  Olá pessoal,
 
  A relação que delimita o município de Formosa está errada, pois está 
  englobando todo o Distrito Federal.
  Veja: http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/relation/334565
 
  Eu não sei como corrigir o problema. Alguém com mais experiência poderia 
  ver isto?
 
  Observe que essa escola fica na cidade de Ceilândia DF, mas está 
  aparecendo como se estivesse em Formosa.
   http://nominatim.openstreetmap.org/details.php?place_id=50296138
 
 
 
  ___
  Talk-br mailing list
  Talk-br@openstreetmap.org
  http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-br
 
 
 
 ___
 Talk-br mailing list
 Talk-br@openstreetmap.org
 http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-br
___
Talk-br mailing list
Talk-br@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-br

Re: [Talk-de] Neues von maps.osm2world.org

2013-02-03 Thread Christoph Hormann

On Saturday 02 February 2013, Tobias Knerr wrote:

 es gibt Neues von unserer 3D-Slippymap zu berichten. Die auffälligste
 Änderung zuerst: Ab jetzt ist die Karte offiziell für ganz
 Deutschland verfügbar.

Nett.

Was mir auffällt sind die Brüche in der Darstellung der Wälder - ich 
nehme an, dass das daher rührt, dass die Bäume zufällig platziert sind 
und dies bei der Berechnung nicht konsistent über die Kachel-Grenzen  
erfolgt.

Grüße,

-- 
Christoph Hormann
http://www.imagico.de/

___
Talk-de mailing list
Talk-de@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de

Re: [Talk-de] Neues von maps.osm2world.org

2013-02-03 Thread Wolfgang Barth

Tobias Knerr osm at tobias-knerr.de writes:

 
 Auch auf den zweiten Blick sind aber noch einige Neuerungen zu
 entdecken, die wir in den letzten Monaten ergänzt haben. Beispielsweise
 funktionieren jetzt Multipolygone mit mehreren outer-Ways korrekt, so
 dass auch größere Seen und Waldstücke korrekt dargestellt werden.

Bei den Wäldern sind teilweise Multipolygon UND outer way als forest getaggt:
http://maps.osm2world.org/?zoom=12lat=49.60626lon=6.75787layers=B0TTFF

Dann wird alles mit Bäumen besetzt (siehe hier das Loch) und teilweise noch
dunkler mit Bäumen (äußerer Teil), an den doppelt getaggten Stellen. Dort ist
dann die Schummerung kaum noch zu erkennen. Einmal Bäume reicht.

mfg wb

PS: An dieser Stelle habe ich jetzt das Tag forest vom outer way entfernt, so
daß sich das hier bald besser darstellen sollte.


___
Talk-de mailing list
Talk-de@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de

Re: [Talk-de] Neues von maps.osm2world.org

2013-02-03 Thread Peter Wendorff


Am 03.02.2013 11:40, schrieb Wolfgang Barth:

Bei den Wäldern sind teilweise Multipolygon UND outer way als forest getaggt:
http://maps.osm2world.org/?zoom=12lat=49.60626lon=6.75787layers=B0TTFF

Dann wird alles mit Bäumen besetzt (siehe hier das Loch) und teilweise noch
dunkler mit Bäumen (äußerer Teil), an den doppelt getaggten Stellen. Dort ist
dann die Schummerung kaum noch zu erkennen. Einmal Bäume reicht.

mfg wb

PS: An dieser Stelle habe ich jetzt das Tag forest vom outer way entfernt, so
daß sich das hier bald besser darstellen sollte.
Und das ist IMHO auch die richtige Vorgehensweise. Wenn beides mit 
forest getagged ist, ist auch das Loch auszufüllen. Alles andere ist 
eigentlich falsch bzw. eine hoffentlich bewusste Fehlinterpretation der 
Renderer, um Mappingfehler zu vermeiden.


Gruß
Peter

___
Talk-de mailing list
Talk-de@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de

Re: [Talk-de] Neues von maps.osm2world.org

2013-02-03 Thread Tobias Knerr

Am 03.02.2013 11:11, schrieb Christoph Hormann:
 Was mir auffällt sind die Brüche in der Darstellung der Wälder - ich 
 nehme an, dass das daher rührt, dass die Bäume zufällig platziert sind 
 und dies bei der Berechnung nicht konsistent über die Kachel-Grenzen  
 erfolgt.

Stimmt, und die Erklärung hast du ja auch gleich selbst geliefert.

Wir haben das Problem jetzt mal in unseren Issuetracker aufgenommen:
https://github.com/tordanik/OSM2World/issues/38

Gruß,
Tobias

___
Talk-de mailing list
Talk-de@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de

Re: [Talk-de] Neues von maps.osm2world.org

2013-02-03 Thread Björn Sieper


Hallo.

Wo wir gerade bei Wald sind.

Hier fehlt ein komplettes Stück: 
http://maps.osm2world.org/?zoom=14lat=48.4491lon=8.28431layers=B0TTFF


Gruß Björn

___
Talk-de mailing list
Talk-de@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de

[Talk-it] dubbio su corretta posizione per area pedestrian

2013-02-03 Thread noperante

Per mappare una piazzia pedonale, si usa il tag highway=pedestrian e
area=yes.

In genere io cerco di lasciare un minimo spazio tra le strade che
eventualmente circondano la piazza e la zona pedonale.
Mi chiedevo se era corretta come interpretazione che e utile per facilitare
successive modifiche alla strada o alla piazza, oppure appoggiare la piazza
alle strade circostanti cosi da creare una sovrapposizione di vie tra strada
e piazza???




--
View this message in context: 
http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/dubbio-su-corretta-posizione-per-area-pedestrian-tp5747825.html
Sent from the Italy General mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

___
Talk-it mailing list
Talk-it@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-it

Re: [Talk-it] dubbio su corretta posizione per area pedestrian

2013-02-03 Thread noperante

e una domanda che si puo estendere a tutte le aree



--
View this message in context: 
http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/dubbio-su-corretta-posizione-per-area-pedestrian-tp5747825p5747827.html
Sent from the Italy General mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

___
Talk-it mailing list
Talk-it@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-it

[Talk-it] Tag da utilizzare per strade private o simili

2013-02-03 Thread Marcello Arcangeli

Salve a tutti,
sono un nuovo 'mappatore' umbro, da qualche giorno mi sto dando da fare per
migliorare la mappa delle zone più periferiche che conosco, anche perché
tranne per i centri principali non mi sembra ci sia molta attività in
Umbria.
Ho iniziato ad inserire soprattutto i nomi delle vie (quasi sempre
mancanti)  ed anche un po' di vie, ora mi sono posto il problema di come
taggare correttamente i tratti che portano dalla via principale agli
ingressi dei condomini che non hanno l'ingresso sulla via, spesso non c'è
nessuna indicazione di accesso riservato ai condomini, ma non credo possano
essere considerati come una via pubblica a tutti gli effetti. Cercando sul
Wiki ho trovato questa indicazione:
*destination* *You are allowed to use it, if there is no alternative*
The public has right of access, only if this is the only element to your
destination. Probably can be dropped, because it could be tagged as
access:role http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:access=no +
access:resident http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:access=designated+
access:visitor http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:access=yes, così ho
iniziato ad inserire questi 3 tag access:, pensate sia corretto?
Un saluto a tutti
Marcello
___
Talk-it mailing list
Talk-it@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-it

Re: [Talk-it] Tag da utilizzare per strade private o simili

2013-02-03 Thread Daniele Forsi

Il 03 febbraio 2013 11:48, Marcello Arcangeli ha scritto:

 access:role=no + access:resident=designated + access:visitor=yes, così ho
 iniziato ad inserire questi 3 tag access:, pensate sia corretto?

qual è la pagina del wiki?

secondo me non è corretto dove non ci sono indicazioni e dove non lo
sai da altre fonti perché access indica la situazione giuridica, per
questi casi io descriverei solo l'uso della strada con
highway=service
service=driveway
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:service%3Ddriveway

Nella pagina di access la traduzione italiana nel testo non era chiara
(oltre all'errore di ortografia), ora l'ho cambiata simile
all'originale e a come era già sotto la foto, da:
I valori di accesso sono utilizzati per descrivere le autorizzazione
di accesso
a
I valori di accesso sono utilizzati per descrivere i limiti legali di accesso
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/IT:Key:access

Access values are used to describe the legal access
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Access
-- 
Daniele Forsi

___
Talk-it mailing list
Talk-it@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-it

Re: [Talk-it] Tag da utilizzare per strade private o simili

2013/2/3 Daniele Forsi dfo...@gmail.com:
 Il 03 febbraio 2013 11:48, Marcello Arcangeli ha scritto:

 access:role=no + access:resident=designated + access:visitor=yes, così ho
 iniziato ad inserire questi 3 tag access:, pensate sia corretto?

 qual è la pagina del wiki?


è importante da sapere che spesso quando si legge access nel wiki,
nel db non va taggato con access ma con foot, vehicle,
bicycle, motor_vehicle e combinazioni. Vedi qui:
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:access

questo access:role non credo che sia in comune uso, nel caso di una
strada che porti ad una casa mi sembra esagerato. Al solito metto
access=permissive (non hai il diritto espresso ma la puoi usare)
oppure access=private (strada privata accesso vietato anche per pedoni
e bici se non ad eccezione individuale (visitatori ecc.).

Sconsiglio in generale l'uso di access=no (ci sono poche situazioni
adatte, per esempio per vietare l'accesso per tutti di accedere in
zone di pericolo).


 secondo me non è corretto dove non ci sono indicazioni e dove non lo
 sai da altre fonti perché access indica la situazione giuridica, per
 questi casi io descriverei solo l'uso della strada con
 highway=service
 service=driveway
 http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:service%3Ddriveway


si, però se si tratta della strada privata di accesso ad una casa
potrebbe essere access=private (senza dubbio per esempio dietro un
cancello chiuso).
Senza cancello o con cancello aperto la situazione è meno chiara.
Potrebbe essere consentito l'accesso (nel caso di una strada pubblica
l'accesso è quasi sempre garantito, nel caso di una strada privata
l'accesso potrebbe (tra altro) anche essere consentito (yes) o
tollerato (permissive)).

ciao,
Martin

___
Talk-it mailing list
Talk-it@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-it

[Talk-it] Stadio Sant'Elia


Stadio Sant'Elia.

39.199402466001771 lon=9.134798477302184

Qui trovo wikipedia=en:Stadio Sant'Elia.

Cosa facciamo ?

Ciao Mario


___
Talk-it mailing list
Talk-it@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-it

Re: [Talk-it] Stadio Sant'Elia

2013-02-03 Thread sabas88

Nel caso di voci in più lingue bisogna adottare la forma
wikipedia:lang=voce

mi pare..

Stefano


Il giorno 03 febbraio 2013 13:58, Mario Pichetti
mario.piche...@gmail.comha scritto:

 Stadio Sant'Elia.

 39.199402466001771 lon=9.134798477302184

 Qui trovo wikipedia=en:Stadio Sant'Elia.

 Cosa facciamo ?

 Ciao Mario


 __**_
 Talk-it mailing list
 Talk-it@openstreetmap.org
 http://lists.openstreetmap.**org/listinfo/talk-ithttp://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-it

___
Talk-it mailing list
Talk-it@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-it

[Talk-it] shp-to-osm (versione 0.8.5)

2013-02-03 Thread Giuseppe Amici

Evidentemente ci sono problemi tra win7 e l'esecuzione di
https://github.com/iandees/shp-to-osm shp-to-osm (versione 0.8.5) tramite
comando .bat

 

Qualcuno ha trovato soluzione?

Grazie dell'interessamento

___
Talk-it mailing list
Talk-it@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-it

Re: [Talk-it] Stadio Sant'Elia


Il 03/02/2013 14:06, sabas88 ha scritto:

Nel caso di voci in più lingue bisogna adottare la forma
wikipedia:lang=voce

mi pare..

Stefano


Il giorno 03 febbraio 2013 13:58, Mario Pichetti 
mario.piche...@gmail.com mailto:mario.piche...@gmail.com ha scritto:


Stadio Sant'Elia.

39.199402466001771 lon=9.134798477302184

Qui trovo wikipedia=en:Stadio Sant'Elia.

Cosa facciamo ?

Ciao Mario


___
Talk-it mailing list
Talk-it@openstreetmap.org mailto:Talk-it@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-it




___
Talk-it mailing list
Talk-it@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-it

Quindi aggiungo wikipedia=it:Stadio Sant'Elia.



--

RISPETTA L'AMBIENTE: SE NON TI E' NECESSARIO, NON STAMPARE QUESTA E-MAIL.

Le informazioni contenute in questa comunicazione sono riservate e destinate
esclusivamente alla/e persona/e o all'ente/i a cui sono stati indirizzati.
Se questa comunicazione Vi e' pervenuta per errore, siete pregati di
informare il mittente rispondendo a questa mail.

I dati riportati nel presente documento sono trattati nel rispetto del
D.Lgs. 196/2003 (Codice della Privacy) sulla tutela dei dati personali.

___
Talk-it mailing list
Talk-it@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-it

[Talk-it] glossario


Ciao a tutti.

IMHO...visto che l'universo dei tag è in espansione.

Esiste sì un wiki, ma comporta pur sempre una ricerca
più o meno lunga per trovare la definizione giusta.

Cosa ne dite se facciamo un glossario un bignamino
dizionario, un file insomma, dove ognuno di noi
abbia un riferimento.

_Nel caso esista mi date il link _?

Es: area pannelli solari

utente=fair data=03/02/2013 (nome e data di chi inserisce e aggiorna)

power = generator

generator:source = solar

generator:method = photovoltaic

generator:output:electricity = yes (oppure specificare potenza in W kW ecc.)

Si potrebbe inserire su Dropbox o altro a disposizione di tutti.

Sono certo che gli utenti senior non lo useranno molto, ma
pensate ai nuovi utenti e alla lista che verrà sgravata dal
peso di tanti post ridondanti.

Mi fermo, altrimenti son over:-) , ciao Mario.

___
Talk-it mailing list
Talk-it@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-it

Re: [Talk-it] shp-to-osm (versione 0.8.5)


Il 03/02/2013 14:13, Giuseppe Amici ha scritto:


Evidentemente ci sono problemi tra win7 e l'esecuzione di shp-to-osm 
https://github.com/iandees/shp-to-osm(versione 0.8.5) tramite 
comando .bat


Qualcuno ha trovato soluzione?

Grazie dell'interessamento



___
Talk-it mailing list
Talk-it@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-it

Ho installato il plugin opendata

___
Talk-it mailing list
Talk-it@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-it

Re: [Talk-it] Stadio Sant'Elia

2013-02-03 Thread sabas88

Il giorno 03 febbraio 2013 14:14, Mario Pichetti
mario.piche...@gmail.comha scritto:

  Quindi aggiungo wikipedia=it:Stadio Sant'Elia.


Sovrascriveresti quello inglese...

Cambierei in
 wikipedia=it:Stadio_Sant%27Elia
 wikipedia:en=Stadio_Sant%27Elia
seguendo quanto scritto in http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:wikipedia
___
Talk-it mailing list
Talk-it@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-it

Re: [Talk-it] Stadio Sant'Elia


Il 03/02/2013 14:37, sabas88 ha scritto:
Il giorno 03 febbraio 2013 14:14, Mario Pichetti 
mario.piche...@gmail.com mailto:mario.piche...@gmail.com ha scritto:


Quindi aggiungo wikipedia=it:Stadio Sant'Elia.


Sovrascriveresti quello inglese...

Cambierei in
 wikipedia=it:Stadio_Sant%27Elia
 wikipedia:en=Stadio_Sant%27Elia
seguendo quanto scritto in 
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:wikipedia



___
Talk-it mailing list
Talk-it@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-it



   Secondary languages :-[ GRAZIE STEFANO


___
Talk-it mailing list
Talk-it@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-it

[Talk-it] R: shp-to-osm (versione 0.8.5)

2013-02-03 Thread Giuseppe Amici

Many thanks J

 

Da: Mario Pichetti [mailto:mario.piche...@gmail.com] 
Inviato: domenica 3 febbraio 2013 14:32
A: openstreetmap list - italiano
Oggetto: Re: [Talk-it] shp-to-osm (versione 0.8.5)

 

Il 03/02/2013 14:13, Giuseppe Amici ha scritto:

Evidentemente ci sono problemi tra win7 e l'esecuzione di
https://github.com/iandees/shp-to-osm shp-to-osm (versione 0.8.5) tramite
comando .bat

 

Qualcuno ha trovato soluzione?

Grazie dell'interessamento






___
Talk-it mailing list
Talk-it@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-it

Ho installato il plugin opendata




 
___
Talk-it mailing list
Talk-it@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-it

[Talk-it] Stadio Sant'Elia


*Valori wikipedia=* errati

Chi l'avrebbe detto che grazie al passaggio di Stefano,
avrei estinto i valori errati del tag wikipedia...e proprio
al Sant'Elia (destino):-) .

Ora mi immergo nella selva oscura dei telefonici:'(

.Mariosono tanti*
___
Talk-it mailing list
Talk-it@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-it

Re: [Talk-it] glossario

2013-02-03 Thread Damjan Gerl

Come già detto qualche volta sarebbe bello fare la versione italiana di 
questa pagina:

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/DE:How_to_map_a
Poi da popolare con le conclusioni che si traggono qui in lista nelle 
varie discussioni.

Però qualcuno deve cominciare...

Ciao
Damjan


03.02.2013 - 14:30 - Mario Pichetti:

Ciao a tutti.

IMHO...visto che l'universo dei tag è in espansione.

Esiste sì un wiki, ma comporta pur sempre una ricerca
più o meno lunga per trovare la definizione giusta.

Cosa ne dite se facciamo un glossario un bignamino
dizionario, un file insomma, dove ognuno di noi
abbia un riferimento.

_Nel caso esista mi date il link _?

Es: area pannelli solari

utente=fair data=03/02/2013 (nome e data di chi inserisce e aggiorna)

power = generator

generator:source = solar

generator:method = photovoltaic

generator:output:electricity = yes (oppure specificare potenza in W kW 
ecc.)


Si potrebbe inserire su Dropbox o altro a disposizione di tutti.

Sono certo che gli utenti senior non lo useranno molto, ma
pensate ai nuovi utenti e alla lista che verrà sgravata dal
peso di tanti post ridondanti.

Mi fermo, altrimenti son over:-) , ciao Mario.


___
Talk-it mailing list
Talk-it@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-it

Re: [Talk-it] R: shp-to-osm (versione 0.8.5)


Il 03/02/2013 15:03, Giuseppe Amici ha scritto:

Many thanks J

Non devi ringraziarmi, devi ringraziare la lista.:-)

Stavo per passare a QGis.poi qualcuno lo ha detto a me (non ricordo 
ma lo ringrazio).


Ciao Mario.

___
Talk-it mailing list
Talk-it@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-it

Re: [Talk-it] glossario


Il 03/02/2013 15:37, Damjan Gerl ha scritto:
Come già detto qualche volta sarebbe bello fare la versione italiana 
di questa pagina:

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/DE:How_to_map_a
Poi da popolare con le conclusioni che si traggono qui in lista nelle 
varie discussioni.

Però qualcuno deve cominciare...

Ciao
Damjan


Ma che meraviglia !!! lo scibile_ Deutsche_tag:-)

Ci proviamo !

Diciamo che un poco wenig mastico la famosa lingua dell' UT.

Poi se Martin ha pazienza nel correggere eventuali strafalcioni:-)

Ciao Mario.

___
Talk-it mailing list
Talk-it@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-it

Re: [Talk-it] Stadio Sant'Elia

2013/2/3 sabas88 saba...@gmail.com:
 Il giorno 03 febbraio 2013 14:14, Mario Pichetti mario.piche...@gmail.com
 ha scritto:

 Quindi aggiungo wikipedia=it:Stadio Sant'Elia.


 Sovrascriveresti quello inglese...

 Cambierei in
  wikipedia=it:Stadio_Sant%27Elia
  wikipedia:en=Stadio_Sant%27Elia
 seguendo quanto scritto in http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:wikipedia


no, la forma standard è
wikipedia=lang:Titolo dell'Articolo

è sufficiente un (1) link in una qualsiasi lingua (connessi tra di
loro in wikipedia).

Poi se ci sono dei problemi (perchè un'articolo in una lingua non è
connesso con un interlanguage link e non se ne può creare) si possono
aggiungere versioni in altre lingue con wikipedia:lang=Titolo
dell'Articolo  ma questi sono eccezioni piuttosto rari. Al solito
basta un link, come quello originale: wikipedia=en:Stadio Sant'Elia
e stai a posto per tutte le lingue:
http://www.openlinkmap.org/?lat=39.1994539988lon=9.134974494309306zoom=10id=23972883type=waylang=it
la pagina wikipedia collegata cambia secondo la lingua che imposti.

http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/23972883
si potrebbe togliere la chiave wikipedia:en perché è ridondante. Il
name dello stadio invece potrebbe essere Stadio Comunale
Sant'Elia? (non lo so, forse sarebbe l'official_name?)

Qui http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/23972881 c'era ancora
un'altro tag wikipedia, l'ho tolto.

ciao,
Martin

___
Talk-it mailing list
Talk-it@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-it

[Talk-it] Calanchi

2013-02-03 Thread Giuseppe Amici

Raccolgo suggerimenti per tag di uso del suolo di questa formazione rocciosa
(molto friabile in realtà)

http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calanco

 

Grazie Beppe

___
Talk-it mailing list
Talk-it@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-it

Re: [Talk-it] glossario

2013/2/3 Mario Pichetti mario.piche...@gmail.com:
 Cosa ne dite se facciamo un glossario un bignamino
 dizionario, un file insomma, dove ognuno di noi
 abbia un riferimento.

 Nel caso esista mi date il link ?
 Es: area pannelli solari


http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Special%3ASearchprofile=advancedsearch=panelli+solarifulltext=Searchns0=1ns1=1ns2=1ns3=1ns4=1ns5=1ns6=1ns7=1ns8=1ns9=1ns10=1ns11=1ns12=1ns13=1ns14=1ns15=1ns200=1ns201=1ns202=1ns204=1ns206=1ns207=1ns210=1ns212=1redirs=1profile=advanced

purtroppo non trova niente. La soluzione in questo caso sarebbe la
traduzione di questa pagina:
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:power%3Dgenerator  in italiano.
Le traduzioni sono molto impegnative perché richiedono costante
attenzione per gli aggiornamenti. Avere liste paralleli in dropbox
farebbe aumentare il lavoro. Se vuoi migliorare qualcosa, tradurre il
wiki potrebbe essere un'idea. Poi assicurati di avere le parole chiavi
importanti sulla pagina.

con questo metodo standard si trova la risposta alla domanda anche in
un attimo ;-)

http://bit.ly/14JqhVI

però per leggere la risposta si dovrebbe capire l'inglese oppure
ritorniamo sopra: qualcuno dovrebbe tradurre le pagine del wiki...

ciao,
Martin

___
Talk-it mailing list
Talk-it@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-it

[Talk-it] Tag per rudere

2013-02-03 Thread demon.box

Domandina veloce: come si tagga correttamente un edificio in rovina/rudere/in
parte crollato?

historic=ruinsmi pare esagerato per una semplice casa crollata senza
interesse storico

building=collapsed (anche se JOSM lo prevede) mi pare di capire NON sia da
usare

Suggerimenti?

Grazie

--enrico



--
View this message in context: 
http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/Tag-per-rudere-tp5747892.html
Sent from the Italy General mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

___
Talk-it mailing list
Talk-it@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-it

Re: [Talk-it] Tag per rudere

2013/2/3 demon.box e.rossin...@alice.it:
 Domandina veloce: come si tagga correttamente un edificio in rovina/rudere/in
 parte crollato?

 historic=ruinsmi pare esagerato per una semplice casa crollata senza
 interesse storico


potresti aggiungere start_date=* se lo sai

io ho usato qualche volta building=ruins (anche se non proprio un
tipo di edificio, è contestabile)


ciao,
Martin

___
Talk-it mailing list
Talk-it@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-it

[Talk-it] rappresentazione/rendering dei parcheggi riservati

2013-02-03 Thread massimo.primic...@inwind.it

buona sera, è la prima volta che scrivo in questa lista e, sinceramnete, non so 
se sto usando la procedura giusta per porre un quesito circa la giusta 
mappatura dei parcheggi.Aiutatemi comunque se possibile.Uso JOSM per mappare e 
vorrei che un nodo, taggato come amenity parking disabled_spaces, fosse 
rappresentato sulla mappa con un'appropriata icona indicante un parcheggio 
riservato ai disabili ma ciò non avviene. Il nodo interessato rimane così 
com'è.Stessa esigenza per mappare e rappresentare altre tipologia di parcheggio 
riservato: polizia municipale, carico-scarico, ecc. Così che si riesca a 
visualzzarle subito sulla mappa.Sto mappando la mia cittadina in modo molto 
accurato per quanto riguarda i sensi unici, le varie tipologie di parcheggio, 
ecc Quindi vorrei fare un lavoro soddisfacente.Ho visitato questa pagina e 
sarebbe bello se quelle icone rappresentassero i tag dei parcheggi riservati:
http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=itamp;sl=autoamp;tl=itamp;u=http%3A%2F%2Fwiki.openstreetmap.org%2Fwiki%2FApproved_features%2FParking
come fare?
Anche in questa pagina noto che quello che cerco di ottenere io non è 
rappresentabile da nessuna 
icona:http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/IT:Map_Featurespossibile?
Help.Massimo

___
Talk-it mailing list
Talk-it@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-it

Re: [Talk-it] Tag per rudere

2013-02-03 Thread demon.box

Guardando qui

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:ruins

building=yes +  ruins=yes

sembrerebbe quello più condiviso e appropriato.

Che dite?






--
View this message in context: 
http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/Tag-per-rudere-tp5747892p5747898.html
Sent from the Italy General mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

___
Talk-it mailing list
Talk-it@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-it

Re: [Talk-it] glossario


Il 03/02/2013 17:35, Martin Koppenhoefer ha scritto:

2013/2/3 Mario Pichetti mario.piche...@gmail.com:

Cosa ne dite se facciamo un glossario un bignamino
dizionario, un file insomma, dove ognuno di noi
abbia un riferimento.

Nel caso esista mi date il link ?
Es: area pannelli solari


http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Special%3ASearchprofile=advancedsearch=panelli+solarifulltext=Searchns0=1ns1=1ns2=1ns3=1ns4=1ns5=1ns6=1ns7=1ns8=1ns9=1ns10=1ns11=1ns12=1ns13=1ns14=1ns15=1ns200=1ns201=1ns202=1ns204=1ns206=1ns207=1ns210=1ns212=1redirs=1profile=advanced

purtroppo non trova niente. La soluzione in questo caso sarebbe la
traduzione di questa pagina:
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:power%3Dgenerator  in italiano.
Le traduzioni sono molto impegnative perché richiedono costante
attenzione per gli aggiornamenti. Avere liste paralleli in dropbox
farebbe aumentare il lavoro. Se vuoi migliorare qualcosa, tradurre il
wiki potrebbe essere un'idea. Poi assicurati di avere le parole chiavi
importanti sulla pagina.

con questo metodo standard si trova la risposta alla domanda anche in
un attimo ;-)

http://bit.ly/14JqhVI

eeeh, magico.


però per leggere la risposta si dovrebbe capire l'inglese oppure
ritorniamo sopra: qualcuno dovrebbe tradurre le pagine del wiki...

ciao,
Martin

___
Talk-it mailing list
Talk-it@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-it


Grazie, Martin, vedo che hai il tasto facile:-)


___
Talk-it mailing list
Talk-it@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-it

Re: [Talk-it] glossario


I tuoi effetti speciali sono molto belli, Martin.

Ma io pensavo ad una cosa tipo quella che ha postato Damjan.

Come già detto qualche volta sarebbe bello fare la versione italiana di 
questa pagina:

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/DE:How_to_map_a
Poi da popolare con le conclusioni che si traggono qui in lista nelle 
varie discussioni.

Però qualcuno deve cominciare...

Ciao
Damjan

Ciao Mario.


___
Talk-it mailing list
Talk-it@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-it

[Talk-it] numeri telefonici


Sto correggendo i numeri telefonici

Quando trovo più di un numero tipo: +39 0585 793059 / 3289356219 / 
3338231582


Che si fà..

Mario.

___
Talk-it mailing list
Talk-it@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-it

Re: [Talk-it] numeri telefonici

2013-02-03 Thread Andrea Musuruane

Metti un punto e virgola tra un numero e l'altro.

Ciao,

Andrea.


On 2/3/13, Mario Pichetti mario.piche...@gmail.com wrote:
 Sto correggendo i numeri telefonici

 Quando trovo più di un numero tipo: +39 0585 793059 / 3289356219 /
 3338231582

 Che si fà..

 Mario.

 ___
 Talk-it mailing list
 Talk-it@openstreetmap.org
 http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-it


___
Talk-it mailing list
Talk-it@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-it

Re: [Talk-it] rappresentazione/rendering dei parcheggi riservati

2013-02-03 Thread sabas88

Il giorno 03 febbraio 2013 18:19, massimo.primic...@inwind.it 
massimo.primic...@inwind.it ha scritto:

 buona sera, è la prima volta che scrivo in questa lista e, sinceramnete,
 non so se sto usando la procedura giusta per porre un quesito circa la
 giusta mappatura dei parcheggi.


Ciao,
chiedi tutto quello che vuoi!


 Aiutatemi comunque se possibile.

 Uso JOSM per mappare e vorrei che un nodo, taggato come amenity parking
 disabled_spaces, fosse rappresentato sulla mappa con un'appropriata icona
 indicante un parcheggio riservato ai disabili ma ciò non avviene. Il
 nodo interessato rimane così com'è.

 Stessa esigenza per mappare e rappresentare altre tipologia di parcheggio
 riservato: polizia municipale, carico-scarico, ecc. Così che si riesca a
 visualzzarle subito sulla mappa.


Non tutti i tag sono supportati dai vari rendering che vedi in giro..
Se vuoi visualizzare le cose al volo puoi provare una cosa tipo
http://osm.dumoulin63.net/xapiviewer/

Sto mappando la mia cittadina in modo molto accurato per quanto riguarda i
 sensi unici, le varie tipologie di parcheggio, ecc Quindi vorrei fare un
 lavoro soddisfacente.

 Ho visitato questa pagina e sarebbe bello se quelle icone rappresentassero
 i tag dei parcheggi riservati:



 http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=itsl=autotl=itu=http%3A%2F%2Fwiki.openstreetmap.org%2Fwiki%2FApproved_features%2FParking


 come fare?


 L'altra soluzione è personalizzarsi un rendering (farsi la mappa da soli)
e ci sono vari modi, il più semplice dovrebbe essere Maperitive (
http://maperitive.net/), per cui dovrai personalizzarti le regole per
visualizzare con le icone che vuoi i tag che vuoi.


 Anche in questa pagina noto che quello che cerco di ottenere io non è
 rappresentabile da nessuna icona:

 http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/IT:Map_Features

 possibile?


 Help.

 Massimo



Ciao,
Stefano



 ___
 Talk-it mailing list
 Talk-it@openstreetmap.org
 http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-it


___
Talk-it mailing list
Talk-it@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-it

Re: [Talk-it] E se per l'Open Data Day facessimo una richiesta a tutte le PA italiane?

2013-02-03 Thread Maurizio Napolitano

2013/2/1 Francesco Pelullo f.pelu...@gmail.com:
 Mi piace la tua idea.

 Il provvedimento però si presta ad interpretazioni suscettibili alla
 sensibilità (e buona volontà) degli amministratori locali.

 Piuttosto che rivolgersi ad 8000 e passa singole amministrazioni comunali,
 propongo di centralizzare tutto.

/me scettico
Lo abbiamo gia' fatto con il portale cartografico nazionale
inoltre servono azioni concrete come il portare subito i dati.
Non propongo di contattare tutte le 8.000 amministrazioni, ma quelle che sono
piu' vicine al mapper che ha voglia di farlo.
La comunita' potrebbe offrire supporto come un documento condiviso da spedire,
e poi il singolo (o singoli) portare avanti l'iniziativa.
Dici che esagero?

 Ad esempio, si potrebbe inviare richiesta formale al Ministero competente
 (degli Interni?)

sarebbe il ministero dell'ambiente, ci sono poi altre realta'

oppure  al neoeletto Presidente del Consiglio (ad esempio
 tramite una lettera aperta pubblicata anche su un quotidiano)

L'opendataday e' il 23 febbraio, le elezioni sono il 24.
A livello di governo Monti sono uscite un paio di cose importanti che ho gia'
citato in altro thread.
Quindi si tratta solo di ricordare cosa e'  diventato legge, e da li' chiedere.
Uno degli ostacoli (idioti) che hanno alcune pa e' che non sanno da dove
cominciare.
Bene dico io, partiamo dai geodati: sono gia' confezionati e pronti per
essere capiti

 in modo da
 ottenere una circolare esplicativa che chiarisca definitivamente i dubbi che
 ci portiamo dietro da millemila thread:
 - il PRG del Comune rientra nel campo d'applicazione del decreto CAD? (può
 darsi di si, non l'ho letto);

rientrano
A parte che il PRG e' una delibera e, in quanto tale, e' di pubblico dominio.
E' la sua attuazione in forma di dati che rientra.

 - la toponomastica presente nell'archivio censuario del catasto terreni?
 - il grafo del catasto strade (per quanto attuato)?;
 - i layer vettoriali del PCN, in particolare edificato, grafo stradale,
 toponomastica, uso suolo, aree protette, parchi
 - etc

Ribadiscono: tutti i dati prodotti dalla PA rientrano in questo.
Il problema e' quando questi dati non sono della PA o di enti parastatali.
Sul fronte del catasto invece la questione e' leggermente piu' delicata,
ci vorra' del tempo, ma penso che anche quelli diventeranno open data.
In ogni caso ogni comune ha (sotto qualche forma che va dalla carta
al file vettoriale) il suo stradario, i civici, le sezioni di censimento ecc..

 I dati ci sono. Chiediamo alla PA (centrale) di fare chiarezza ai nostri
 dubbi, poi andiamo in Comune e tiriamo una testata sullo spigolo del
 pilastro più vicino (l'impiegato è assente, ha da fare, non è compito suo,
 non ha capito, deve farsi autorizzare dall'Assessore...)

Si tratta di una delibera, comunque, posso sentire chi c'e' dietro l'agenda
digitale e chiedere un rafforzamento.
Alla fine tutti dovranno convogliare sul rilascio dei dati.
Al momento molte pa giocano palla lunga ed altre, invece, sono incastrate
sul rilascio obbligatorio dei dati del decreto sviluppo articolo 18.
Per l'open data si tratta di un invito a rilasciare dei dati che, in occasione
di quella data, saranno anche importanti - sotto la vigilanza della comuntia'
di openstreetmap - in osm.
Una sorta di piccolo aiuto ad aprire i dati.



 Happy OpenDataDay.

 Ciao
 /niubii/

 Il giorno 31/gen/2013 23:25, Maurizio Napolitano napoo...@gmail.com ha
 scritto:

 Ciao a tutti,
 come ho scritto in altri thread, il 23 febbraio 2013 e' la giornata
 internazionale dedicata all'Open Data
 http://www.opendataday.org
 Per noi, in Italia, la data e' particolarmente sfigatella visto che e'
 il giorno prima delle elezioni.
 La proposta fatta da chi ha lanciato l'iniziativa, sarebbe quella di
 organizzare delle hackaton, ma,
 causa elezioni, molti sono perplessi.

 All'interno della comunita' italiana degli open data sto spingendo
 comunque affinche' si riesca ad
 avere delle azioni utili alla causa.

 Una delle cose che continuo a suggerire e' il rilascio, per quella
 data, di alcuni dataset da consegnare,
 in maniera simbolica ad una comunita'.

 Ora faccio al stessa proposta alla comunita' italiana di OpenStreetMap:
 bene o male tutte le pubbliche amministrazioni italiane hanno i dati
 geografici belli e impacchettati
 per essere distribuiti (questo anche per questioni legate da
 impostazioni nazionali ed europee).
 Qualcuna e' piu' virtuosa, qualcuna meno, sta di fatto pero' che
 questi dati costano meno fatica
 nel rilascio.
 La proposta che faccio e' molto semplice: scriviamo assieme una
 lettera da spedire alle varie
 PA chiedendo se, per la data del 23 febbraio, apriranno almeno un
 dataset di geodati, con una
 licenza compatibile con OpenStreetMap (CC0, CC-BY, IODL 2.0, IODL1.0 e
 ODbL) dove poi
 noi ci impegnerano a farne un import nel database di OSM con i
 relativi vantaggi che ne conseguono.

 ... ora ditemi se vaneggio :)

 ciao


 --
 Maurizio Napo Napolitano
 http://de.straba.us

Re: [Talk-it] Tag da utilizzare per strade private o simili

2013-02-03 Thread Marcello Arcangeli

2013/2/3 Daniele Forsi dfo...@gmail.com:
 Il 03 febbraio 2013 11:48, Marcello Arcangeli ha scritto:

 access:role=no + access:resident=designated + access:visitor=yes,
cosi ho
 iniziato ad inserire questi 3 tag access:, pensate sia corretto?

 qual è la pagina del wiki?

Daniele, guardando la marea di informazioni mi ero concentrato sul tag
access. alla fine della pagina c'è il rimando anche alla pagina inglese
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/access_restrictions_1.5
dove ho trovato quanto riportato, in effetti la combinazione
highway=service
service=driveway
corrisponde allo scopo, per cui ho inserito questi tag.
Grazie, Marcello


___
Talk-it mailing list
Talk-it@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-it

Re: [Talk-it] rappresentazione/rendering dei parcheggi riservati

2013-02-03 Thread Maurizio Napolitano

Uso JOSM per mappare e vorrei che un nodo, taggato come amenity parking
disabled_spaces, fosse rappresentato sulla mappa con un'appropriata icona
indicante un parcheggio riservato ai disabili ma ciò non avviene. Il
nodo interessato rimane così com'è.

In generale, anche se poi nei fatti e' una buona verifica, non si
mappa in funzione
di cosa viene rappresentato sulla mappa ufficiale.
La tua osservazione pero' e' interessante.
Sicuramente e' possibile creare un rendering apposito o usando maperitive o
mapnik o ...
Secondo me pero' potrebbe essere interessante contattare chi gestisce la mappa
http://parking.openstreetmap.de/
e proporre di inserire, nei rendering, le regole per rappresentare le
informazioni
di cui parli.

Stessa esigenza per mappare e rappresentare altre tipologia di parcheggio
riservato: polizia municipale, carico-scarico, ecc. Così che si riesca a
visualzzarle subito sulla mappa.

Sto mappando la mia cittadina in modo molto accurato per quanto riguarda i
sensi unici, le varie tipologie di parcheggio, ecc Quindi vorrei fare un
lavoro soddisfacente.

Ho visitato questa pagina e sarebbe bello se quelle icone rappresentassero i
tag dei parcheggi riservati:

http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=itsl=autotl=itu=http%3A%2F%2Fwiki.openstreetmap.org%2Fwiki%2FApproved_features%2FParking

come fare?

Anche in questa pagina noto che quello che cerco di ottenere io non è
rappresentabile da nessuna icona:

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/IT:Map_Features

possibile?

Help.

Massimo

___
Talk-it mailing list
Talk-it@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-it

--
Maurizio Napo Napolitano
http://de.straba.us

___
Talk-it mailing list
Talk-it@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-it

Re: [Talk-it] Utilizzo del Suolo - Suggerimenti e critiche per le regole di conversione

2013-02-03 Thread Leonardo


Ciao,

ho fatto una piccola modifica al file delle regole aggiungendone una che 
mancava:


21200 Terreni arabili in aree irrigue - 
outer,CODICE_NUM,21200,landuse,farmland


e ho eliminato due voci doppie.

Rimangono in sospeso alcune voci. Alcune idee:

11300 Classi di tessuto urbano speciali - note = Classi di tessuto 
urbano speciali da controllare sul posto o tramite PCN/Bing.


12100 Aree industriali, commerciali e dei servizi pubblici e privati - 
note = Aree industriali, commerciali e dei servizi pubblici e privati da 
controllare sul posto o tramite PCN/Bing.


12130 Aree destinate a servizi pubblici, militari e privati - note = 
Aree destinate a servizi pubblici, militari e privati da controllare sul 
posto o tramite PCN/Bing.


In questo modo JOSM le segnala e facilita la loro ricerca.

52300 Mari e Oceani - note = Mari e Oceani, eliminare il poligono.

12140 Infrastrutture di supporto alle acque, barriere frangiflutti, 
dighe -? sicuramente un note.


Leonardo

___
Talk-it mailing list
Talk-it@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-it

[Talk-it] vicenza

2013-02-03 Thread Simone Cortesi

usa OSM sul suo webgis,
sbaglia la licenza, ma lo usa. bene.

http://gis.comune.vicenza.gov.it/sitvi/index.php



--
-S

___
Talk-it mailing list
Talk-it@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-it

Re: [Talk-it] vicenza

2013-02-03 Thread Maurizio Napolitano

Tempo fa avevano aperto i dati in cc-by-sa
Cmq basta avvisarli.
Il referente e' Tania

2013/2/3 Simone Cortesi sim...@cortesi.com:
 usa OSM sul suo webgis,
 sbaglia la licenza, ma lo usa. bene.

 http://gis.comune.vicenza.gov.it/sitvi/index.php



 --
 -S

 ___
 Talk-it mailing list
 Talk-it@openstreetmap.org
 http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-it



-- 
Maurizio Napo Napolitano
http://de.straba.us

___
Talk-it mailing list
Talk-it@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-it

Re: [Talk-it] vicenza

2013-02-03 Thread Luca 'remix_tj' Lorenzetto

2013/2/3 Simone Cortesi sim...@cortesi.com:
 usa OSM sul suo webgis,
 sbaglia la licenza, ma lo usa. bene.

 http://gis.comune.vicenza.gov.it/sitvi/index.php

Probabilmente perchè lo usano da prima del passaggio (o hanno
cominciato il progetto prima del cambio licenza).

Comunque in lista c'è sicuramente qualcuno che lo può far sistemare (luca?)

--
E' assurdo impiegare gli uomini di intelligenza eccellente per fare
calcoli che potrebbero essere affidati a chiunque se si usassero delle
macchine
Gottfried Wilhelm von Leibnitz, Filosofo e Matematico (1646-1716)

Internet è la più grande biblioteca del mondo.
Ma il problema è che i libri sono tutti sparsi sul pavimento
John Allen Paulos, Matematico (1945-vivente)

Luca 'remix_tj' Lorenzetto, http://www.remixtj.net , lorenzetto.l...@gmail.com

___
Talk-it mailing list
Talk-it@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-it

Re: [Talk-it] vicenza

2013-02-03 Thread luca menini

Il 03 febbraio 2013 22:45, Luca 'remix_tj' Lorenzetto
lorenzetto.l...@gmail.com ha scritto:
 2013/2/3 Simone Cortesi sim...@cortesi.com:
 usa OSM sul suo webgis,
 sbaglia la licenza, ma lo usa. bene.

 http://gis.comune.vicenza.gov.it/sitvi/index.php

 Probabilmente perchè lo usano da prima del passaggio (o hanno
 cominciato il progetto prima del cambio licenza).

 Comunque in lista c'è sicuramente qualcuno che lo può far sistemare (luca?)


Il responsabile di questo progetto si chiama Stefano De Boni, lavora
al Comune di Vicenza e legge in copia questo e-mail.

Ciao.
luca

___
Talk-it mailing list
Talk-it@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-it

Re: [Talk-it] vicenza

2013-02-03 Thread Simone Cortesi

2013/2/3 luca menini menini.l...@gmail.com:
 Comunque in lista c'è sicuramente qualcuno che lo può far sistemare (luca?)


 Il responsabile di questo progetto si chiama Stefano De Boni, lavora
 al Comune di Vicenza e legge in copia questo e-mail.

Grazie!

--
-S

___
Talk-it mailing list
Talk-it@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-it

Re: [Talk-it] glossario

2013/2/3 Mario Pichetti mario.piche...@gmail.com:
 I tuoi effetti speciali sono molto belli, Martin.

 Ma io pensavo ad una cosa tipo quella che ha postato Damjan.


 Come già detto qualche volta sarebbe bello fare la versione italiana di
 questa pagina:
 http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/DE:How_to_map_a


la pagina connosco bene, ho delle volte aggiunto delle cose e mi ha
sorpreso con quale velocità potevo introdurre nuovi tags ;-)
Purtroppo delle volte ho trovato parecchie proposte di tagging non in
linea col resto del wiki (forse al momento è aggiornato, non lo so).
In passato ho anche proposto di cancellare quella pagina ;-) (quando
era ancora solo in tedesco). In generale è chiaro che dobbiamo
documentare i nostri tags. La pagina ufficiale è sempre la pagina del
tag (pagine con tag o key nel titolo e URL). Tutte le altre pagine ci
mettono a rischio di andare in contraddizione con le pagine ufficiali
per mancata manutenzione.

ciao,
Martin

___
Talk-it mailing list
Talk-it@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-it

Re: [Talk-it] dubbio su corretta posizione per area pedestrian