Re: [OSM-talk] OSMF candidate office hours, ask me anything
On Fri, 6 Dec 2019, 20:13 Michal Migurski, wrote: > I’ll start by suggesting that one of your assumptions is not accurate. > Weak license enforcement is bad for large organizations like my employer, > Facebook. We prefer clear rules and the legal team here is pleased to see > that the LWG is moving forward with more explicit, assertive communication > about the license and its requirements. It will allow us to act with > confidence and clarity. I won't say more about this because people are > actively working on the new attribution proposal. > Michal, LWG guidelines won't solve lack of attribution. I just recorded this https://youtu.be/2kgPqWe-wJs this is obviously a license violation, which I have reported via email to Facebook and Mapbox, privately, mailing lists and even to the board for the last 13 months. Still not fixed. This is extremely disrespectful towards OSMF coming from a corporate member. But again, the board decided not to decide anything about my request to terminate the rights as written on ODbL. Actions speak louder than words. it's not rocket science to add attribution and should have been fixed already. > ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] nomoj de internaciaj objektoj / nazwy obiektów międzynarodowych ? names of international objects
sent from a phone > On 6. Dec 2019, at 15:16, pangoSE wrote: > > I believe that we should deprecate all wikipedia links as they are just > potentially obsolete cruft that can be inferred from the wikidata item. (I am > also an editor of Wikidata) > > If you really want the Wikipedia link displayed fix your editor to fetch the > local wikipedia link (if any) for your local language in addition to the > label and description. > I know that people are assuming that a wikipedia article in language x has approximately the same content as another one in language y that is linked to it, but this is not the case. There are often significant differences, even if many articles are translations from the English version. Wikidata is another thing. It all started with one wikidata object for every article, but as the project grows and people edit it (yes, not only bots are editing wikidata), their objects get split and refined (subgroups of objects). A common example are settlements. In wikipedia, political and socio-geographic entities are often covered in the same article (or they are combined in one language and split in another). In wikidata (and even more in OpenStreetMap), these tend to get split over several objects. Wikipedia tends to aggregate several aspects of a thing into one article, wikidata tends to separating the concepts. If someone adds a wikipedia link for something, you can see by the language which specific article she has read and linked (confirmed). It does not automatically imply that all wikipedia articles in other languages would also fit for the OpenStreetMap object that has gotten the tag. Even less for wikidata (which usually only deals with part of an article, which is not necessarily the one which fits for the object). Just have a look, it happens all the time, another typical case for issues are buildings and things inside the buildings (museums, governments, whatever). Maybe it is less of an issue with natural places (mountains, seas, etc), but in the cultural world it is almost ubiquitous. Cheers Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] nomoj de internaciaj objektoj / nazwy obiektów międzynarodowych ? names of international objects
sent from a phone > On 6. Dec 2019, at 10:36, Oleksiy Muzalyev > wrote: > > For many geographical names there are articles in the Latin version of > Wikipedia. For example, for the Black Sea: > https://la.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pontus_Euxinus it is a very short article, compared to currently spoken languages, but what is most disappointing, there isn’t a single latin source for information in the article ;-) I doubt there’s any useful outcome of latin articles in WP, more a kind of academic exercise Cheers Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Relevance of the “name” tag in places where there is no obvious associated language
On 2019-12-06 16:58, Andy Townsend wrote: On 06/12/2019 15:10, Tomek wrote: https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/305640277 W dniu 19-12-06 o 16:08, Tomek pisze: EN Is this change acceptable and can I continue? https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/78060265 I don't think this is the best solution I personally am not a fan of using 8 different names in one name tag (though some countries that have multiple equal languages do favour that nationally). The example here "Baltijas jūra / Baltijos jūra / Itämeri / Läänemeri / Morze Bałtyckie / Östersjön / Østersøen / Ostsee / Балтийское море" seems a bit clumsy. I agree with that. It does not solve anything. Is there an international language used within shipping worldwide? Perhaps that would be a better option than this. English. And in aviation. English. All examples of the nasty English Imperialist Agressor who wants to impose their language on other nations. Or something like that. Regards, Maarten ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] nomoj de internaciaj objektoj / nazwy obiektów międzynarodowych ? names of international objects
W dniu 19-12-06 o 17:40, Steve Doerr pisze: > This will take some research, but... > > Many of these names will be translations or transliterations of one > particular name first attested in one particular language. So, 'Black > Sea' is likely to be a translation of some name in a different > language and which has subsequently been translated into multiple > other languages. Therefore, the name tag could contain the name in > this original language, provided it is clearly the name that has been > widely translated into other languages. (This is to avoid Ancient > Greek and Latin names that do not correspond to the modern name in > most languages.) > EO Tio ne eblas, ni devus studi etimologion de ĉiuj maroj kaj tio kaŭzus konfliktojn, ekz: https://eo.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balta_Maro#Nomoj_de_la_Balta_maro_en_lingvoj_de_apudaj_landoj PL To nie jest możliwe, musielibyśmy przestudiować etymologię wszystkich nazw, co i tak powodowałoby konflikty: https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morze_Ba%C5%82tyckie#Nazwa EN It is not possible, we would have to study the etymology of all names, which would still cause conflicts. https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/7018186114/history EO Por Kaspio mi enigis nomojn en (apenaŭ) 5 lingvoj de apudaj landoj, 5 ligiloj al Vikipedioj; la mapigisto “luiswoo“ en la sekva redakto forigis ilin ĉiujn. Kion faru pri objektoj kiuj apudas kun NENIU lando (ekz. maroj de Suda Oceano aŭ kontinentoj), iu proponis nomi ilin en 6 lingvoj de Unuiĝintaj Nacioj, do Sudameriko estus en la arabo lingvo, kvankam ĝi estas parolata en neniu lando de ĝi? PL Dla Morza Kaspijskiego wpisałem (zaledwie) 5 języków sąsiadujących krajów i 5 odnośników do Wikipedii; mapowicz „luiswoo” w następnej edycji usunął je wszystkie. Co zrobić z obiektami graniczącymi z ŻADNYM państwem (np. morza Oceanu Południowego czy też kontynenty), ktoś zaproponował nazwanie ich w 6 językach ONZ, więc Ameryka Południowa miałaby nazwę w języku arabskim, chociaż nie jest on oficjalnym językiem jakiegokolwiek kraju tam? EN For the Caspian Sea I have (only) included 5 languages of neighboring countries and 5 links to Wikipedia; mapper "luiswoo" in the next edition removed them all. What to do with not objects bordering ANY state (e.g. the seas of the Southern Ocean or continents), someone proposed to name them in 6 languages of the United Nations, so South America would have a name in Arabic, although it is not the official language of any country there? <>___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] OSMF candidate office hours, ask me anything
Hey Mateusz, thanks for this question and sorry that none of the times I offered fit your schedule! I’ll start by suggesting that one of your assumptions is not accurate. Weak license enforcement is bad for large organizations like my employer, Facebook. We prefer clear rules and the legal team here is pleased to see that the LWG is moving forward with more explicit, assertive communication about the license and its requirements. It will allow us to act with confidence and clarity. I won't say more about this because people are actively working on the new attribution proposal. To answer your direct question, I’ll handle a conflict of interest the same way as any other board member. UK law requires that I seek authorization from the other directors to participate in situations where I have a conflict, and recuse myself if not. Rory McCann is in a similar situation and points out in his message that explicit rules such as those governing conflicts make it easier for everyone to comply. (https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/osmf-talk/2019-December/006449.html) I’ll also reference Mikel’s observation that the interests of OSMF (and therefore their possible conflicts with any individual board member's interest) are very much a question that this current election is seeking to answer. Starting tomorrow and over the next week, the voting membership of the OSMF will determine what the foundation’s interests *are*. Speaking for myself, I am running to promote a high quality free map with equal coverage around the world, the heart of my interest in OpenStreetMap since 2006. -mike. michal migurski- contact info and pgp key: sf/cahttp://mike.teczno.com/contact.html > On Dec 6, 2019, at 2:56 AM, Mateusz Konieczny wrote: > > > > > 3 Dec 2019, 20:05 by m...@teczno.com: > Hi everyone, > > I’m one of the twelve candidates running for OSMF board. > It seems that none of video calls times matches my time, so hopefully it is > OK to ask here. > > How you plan to handle an obvious conflict of interest due to your FB > employment? > > For example in topic of enforcing ODBL licence? It is interest of FB to keep > all enforcement of > OSM license extremely weak, so even recusing yourself from all FB-related > issues would not > be sufficient. > > Note that ODBL licence requires notice reasonably calculated to make any > Person that uses, > views, or is otherwise exposed to the Produced Work aware that Content was > obtained from > the Database and that it is available under this License. > > IANAL, but it seems to me that current attribution hiding used by FB is not > enough to fulfill this > requirement and that they are currently using OSM data illegally. > ___ > talk mailing list > talk@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Relevance of the “name” tag in places where there is no obvious associated language
W dniu 19-12-06 o 19:01, Andy Townsend pisze: > On 06/12/2019 14:40, Tomek wrote: >> EN >> The problem is that the English imperialists want to impose their >> language on other nations; and do not understand (do not want to >> understand) how someone writes in a language other than English, is >> it so difficult to use Google / Yandex / Bing? > > Taking a step back from the original problem (what should go in the > name tag for e.g. the Atlantic Ocean), I think it's worth thinking > about how you're trying to discuss this with people. > > I'd suggest that talking about "English imperialists" as part of your > argument is unhelpful to your cause, not because it is rude (even > though it is) but because ultimately you presumably want to win people > over to your point of view. It would help to try and understand how > OSM got into the position it is in now (with one "name" tag and lots > of "name:language" tags) and to try and understand the conflicting > requirements that mean that there isn't going to be a perfect solution > that satisfies everyone. Until you do that and understand where other > people are coming from you won't be able to engage with their > arguments, and you won't be able to make an argument that engages with > their point of view and perhaps expands their worldview a bit. > PL Wiadomość użytkownika „Cheerio John” tylko potwierdza moje zdanie. Ale to nieistotne, spróbujmy dojść do porozumienia i rozwiązać problem. EO La mesaĝo de uzanto “Cheerio John” nur apogas mian opinion. Sed tio ne gravas, ni provu akiri interkompreniĝon kaj solvi la problemon. <>___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Relevance of the “name” tag in places where there is no obvious associated language
It is certainly the case. However, the new tools begin to change this situation. For example, at Wikidata items one can add a translation into any language quickly and conveniently. The commercial websites also get the different language versions, since it can be implemented now easily and robustly. For example, the website of Uber is available in any language of a region where this enterprise operates. Let alone smartphones. One can nowadays have her/his smartphone in any language. And it was not the case still in 90s. The translation is becoming the true international language. Best regards, Oleksiy On 12/6/19 18:46, john whelan wrote: The international language would be English. It is after all the language of trade and as a consequence absorbed many words from other languages. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Relevance of the “name” tag in places where there is no obvious associated language
On 06/12/2019 14:40, Tomek wrote: EN The problem is that the English imperialists want to impose their language on other nations; and do not understand (do not want to understand) how someone writes in a language other than English, is it so difficult to use Google / Yandex / Bing? Taking a step back from the original problem (what should go in the name tag for e.g. the Atlantic Ocean), I think it's worth thinking about how you're trying to discuss this with people. I'd suggest that talking about "English imperialists" as part of your argument is unhelpful to your cause, not because it is rude (even though it is) but because ultimately you presumably want to win people over to your point of view. It would help to try and understand how OSM got into the position it is in now (with one "name" tag and lots of "name:language" tags) and to try and understand the conflicting requirements that mean that there isn't going to be a perfect solution that satisfies everyone. Until you do that and understand where other people are coming from you won't be able to engage with their arguments, and you won't be able to make an argument that engages with their point of view and perhaps expands their worldview a bit. Best Regards, Andy PS: If you'd like to create a map that's based on EO name tags let me know if you would like any help. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Relevance of the “name” tag in places where there is no obvious associated language
The international language would be English. It is after all the language of trade and as a consequence absorbed many words from other languages. But that is taking a pragmatic view and is only one minor voice amongst all the contributors. There will be many other voices decrying its use. One approach would be to tag name:en in areas where the local language differs or the local written language is unusable by a significant number of people either because of hardware / software issues or literacy issues. Cheerio John On Fri, 6 Dec 2019, 11:00 am Andy Townsend, wrote: > On 06/12/2019 15:10, Tomek wrote: > > https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/305640277 > > W dniu 19-12-06 o 16:08, Tomek pisze: > > EN > Is this change acceptable and can I continue? > > https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/78060265 > > > Not yet. Wait what people say in reply. > > I personally am not a fan of using 8 different names in one name tag > (though some countries that have multiple equal languages do favour that > nationally). The example here "Baltijas jūra / Baltijos jūra / Itämeri / > Läänemeri / Morze Bałtyckie / Östersjön / Østersøen / Ostsee / Балтийское > море" seems a bit clumsy. > > Is there an international language used within shipping worldwide? > Perhaps that would be a better option than this. > > Best Regards, > > Andy > > > ___ > talk mailing list > talk@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk > ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] nomoj de internaciaj objektoj / nazwy obiektów międzynarodowych ? names of international objects
This will take some research, but... Many of these names will be translations or transliterations of one particular name first attested in one particular language. So, 'Black Sea' is likely to be a translation of some name in a different language and which has subsequently been translated into multiple other languages. Therefore, the name tag could contain the name in this original language, provided it is clearly the name that has been widely translated into other languages. (This is to avoid Ancient Greek and Latin names that do not correspond to the modern name in most languages.) -- Steve ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Relevance of the “name” tag in places where there is no obvious associated language
You understand correctly. And yes, you can guess a users language from either http headers or geolocation or even a cookie. But the issue there currently is, is that there is one Mapnik map with the captions rendered in the tiles. To do something about that you would need to make a different caption layer and present the one you think is right for the user viewing the map as an overlay over a non-captioned Mapnik map. Or you have to make different Mapnik styles for different languages and present them also based on those criterea. Or, as I suggested before: make your own map. The german community has one with a different style and lots of placed rendered in German and English. A problem with that is that it takes much more time and storage to make those tiles. I know google does something like it but does it IMHO in a bad way because for me it translates every place into a Dutch name, giving rise to oddities as Ariën-aan-de-Leie. So if you want to go that way, expect it to be less than trivial. I understand the issue. It’s frustrating because it is a technical issue of the renderer, not of the database: it seems to conflict with the “semantic first, not renderring” OSM principle. The problem arises out of one of the general OSM principles: use the name that is verifiable on the ground. This does not work well for oceans or any international body. No ocean has a sign affixed to it with its name (well, there might be signposts in different countries pointing to it). This is a great point. To me, it seems to point to removing the “name” tag on such places: this information doesn’t correspond to anything “real” (but the “name:en” does). And I don’t even mind if some careless renderers just use “name:en” as a default is the tag “name” is absent: it’s something that should be parametric, but a renderer might just have be designed specifically for English, so whatever. And I would be violently against removing name tags for such places. Oleksiy Muzalyev makes a great point why you should not remove name tags from places. It makes them unfindable. You can not find something which is not in the OSM database. Having them rendered in an unwanted language seems to me to be much more desirable than not being able to find them at all. I’m sorry, I failed to find Oleksiy Muzalyev’s message: what was the sent time of this message? I’m very surprised by this comment, because OSM search also includes the localised names in its search. Here is a random example: https://www.openstreetmap.org/search?query=中国 and https://www.openstreetmap.org/search?query=Ĉinio both find China ( https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/270056 ) as unique result. This means that the base search in https://www.openstreetmap.org not also searches for the “name” tag, but also for the “name:zh”, “name:eo”, etc. tags (it also looks for the “official_name” tags too: https://www.openstreetmap.org/search?query=中华人民共和国 ). Or are you referring to another search engine? Maybe you misunderstood me: when I say “removing the “name” tag”, I mean removing the only tag whose name is strictly “name”. In particular, I’m of course not suggesting to also the “name:en”, “name:eo”, etc. tags. This would of course be silly as it would remove the information from OSM: it’s not what I’m advocating here. I’m just suggesting to remove the “name” tag, not its localised versions. This does not remove any information as the “name” tag is usually identical to one of its localised version: in the case of https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/270056 , the “name” and “name:zh” are identical. Regards, Martin. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Relevance of the “name” tag in places where there is no obvious associated language
On 06/12/2019 15:10, Tomek wrote: https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/305640277 W dniu 19-12-06 o 16:08, Tomek pisze: EN Is this change acceptable and can I continue? https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/78060265 Not yet. Wait what people say in reply. I personally am not a fan of using 8 different names in one name tag (though some countries that have multiple equal languages do favour that nationally). The example here "Baltijas jūra / Baltijos jūra / Itämeri / Läänemeri / Morze Bałtyckie / Östersjön / Østersøen / Ostsee / Балтийское море" seems a bit clumsy. Is there an international language used within shipping worldwide? Perhaps that would be a better option than this. Best Regards, Andy ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Relevance of the “name” tag in places where there is no obvious associated language
https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/305640277 W dniu 19-12-06 o 16:08, Tomek pisze: > EO > Ĉu tiu ĉi redakto estas akceptata kaj mi povas pluigi ŝanĝi? > PL > Czy ta zmiana jest akceptowalna i mogę kontynuować? > EN > Is this change acceptable and can I continue? > > https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/78060265 > > > ___ > talk mailing list > talk@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk <>___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Relevance of the “name” tag in places where there is no obvious associated language
EO Ĉu tiu ĉi redakto estas akceptata kaj mi povas pluigi ŝanĝi? PL Czy ta zmiana jest akceptowalna i mogę kontynuować? EN Is this change acceptable and can I continue? https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/78060265 <>___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Relevance of the “name” tag in places where there is no obvious associated language
W dniu 19-12-06 o 14:11, Martin Constantino–Bodin pisze: > Probably the most important point: the goal of the Esperanto community > is not to overcome English in some kind of epic battle. It is to > provide language diversity and avoid language imperialism. Hence, the > main point of the community is not that Esperanto should be used as > the international language instead of English, it’s that there should > not be one unique international language: Esperanto should be an > international language, not the international language ☺ Anyway, the > Esperanto movement is complex, and some parts of it just states that > Esperanto should be used for pragmatical reasons as it costs much less > to teach it than other languages (a good instance of this is > https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rapport_Grin ). EO Problemo estas, ke anglaj imperiistoj volas altrudi sian lingvo al aliaj nacioj; kaj ne komprenas (ne volas kompreni) se iu skribas en alia lingvo ol la angla, ĉu estas tiel malfacile uzi tradukilon de Google/Yandex/Bing? PL Problemem jest to, że angielscy imperialiści chcą narzucić swój język innym narodom; i nie rozumieją (nie chcą zrozumieć) jak ktoś pisze w innym jeżyku niż angielski, czy jest tak trudno skorzystać z tłumacza Google/Yandex/Bing? EN The problem is that the English imperialists want to impose their language on other nations; and do not understand (do not want to understand) how someone writes in a language other than English, is it so difficult to use Google / Yandex / Bing? W dniu 19-12-06 o 00:02, Joseph Eisenberg pisze: >> for smaller seas, I suggest adding names in all official / main languages >> of adjacent countries, so instead of "Black Sea" there will be: > Karadeniz Marea Neagră Чорне море | Черно море | Чёрное море | შავი ზღვა > > That's fine. EO La ĝusta signo por disigi nomojn estas “/”, baldaŭ mi komencos ŝanĝi! PL Właściwym znakiem rozdzielającym jest „/”, zaraz zacznę zmieniać! EN The correct separator is "/", I will start changing! W dniu 19-12-06 o 08:04, Maarten Deen pisze: > On 2019-12-05 22:12, Tomek wrote: > >> EN: >> In what language should the names of interstate objects be: seas / >> bays, continents, oceans, poles? They are not currently displayed on >> the default map(1), programs (e.g. OsmAnd, iD and JOSM editors) use >> the name:LANGUAGE label, so the content of the "name" label is >> ideological only, not practical. > > I disagree that the name tag is ideological. Maybe you use the wrong > word and meant theoretical? EO Ne havanta praktikan signifon (ĉiuj uzas name:LINGVO), nur por esti tien. PL Nie mający praktycznego znaczenia (wszyscy korzystają z name:JĘZYK), tylko na pokaz. EN Not of practical importance (everyone uses the name:LANGUAGE), just for show. W dniu 19-12-06 o 10:33, Oleksiy Muzalyev pisze: > > For many geographical names there are articles in the Latin version of > Wikipedia. For example, for the Black Sea: > https://la.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pontus_Euxinus > > for Poland: https://la.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polonia , for Canada: > https://la.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canada , etc. > > So if one wishes to add a name in Latin, i.e. name:la in the editor, > it is possible just to look it up in the Latin version of Wikipedia. > > The Latin language was widely used in the cartography and in science > in general over the past centuries. For example Isaac Newton's book > "Philosophiæ Naturalis Principia Mathematica", one of the most > important works in the history of science, was published in 1687 in > Latin. > > And it is still used in science nowadays. The legacy of the Rēs > pūblica Rōmāna & Imperium Rōmānum, including its language, is so > enormous that it can never get extinct. At the same time the Latin > does not have a standing army any more. > > So it is indeed kind of neutral. What is beneficial and safer for > mappers in some parts. Besides the name in Latin is often recognizable > for people who speak English, French, German, etc. Even for people > from the Cyrillic, Chinese, Korean, etc. background it is often also > understandable, since the Latin alphabet is studied at the elementary > school. > EO Anstataŭ Latino eblas uzi Interlingvaon: https://eo.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interlingvao tio ĉi estas “rekreita kaj simpligita” Latino. PL Zamiast łaciny można korzystać z Interlingwy: https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interlingua https://sites.google.com/site/jezykinterlingua/ jest to coś tak jakby „odtworzona i uproszczona” łacina. EN Instead of Latin, you can use Interlingua: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interlingua it is something like "recreated and simplified" Latin. W dniu 19-12-06 o 10:53, Maarten Deen pisze: >>> Still, it is a Good Idea to have one standard (language) to >>> communicate >>> or define things, like everything meant for an international public >>> in >>> the wiki is English and the tag system is English. >> >> you should argue why it is a good idea to have _one_ standard language >> in the project. IMHO it excludes many billions of
Re: [OSM-talk] Relevance of the “name” tag in places where there is no obvious associated language
On 2019-12-06 14:11, Martin Constantino–Bodin wrote: Removing the name tag does not solve any problem. The renderer for the map (or any program that needs to display the name tag) needs to make a decision which tag to display. If the name tag is not present it will have to fall back to another one. In cases where you are running a program on your computer, this decision might be easy: the language setting of your computer (like JOSM does). In cases where you make something for a general audience, that decision will not be so easy. Then you will get into this discussion about "what language is used most" or "we don't feel comfortable having an in our eyes non-neutral language pushed up to us". I agree that it does not entirely solve the problem. It however partially solves it: in most contexts, there is a default language defined. Be it the language of the computer (as you said for JOSM), of the browser (and, if we look at the HTTP_ACCEPT header, there might even be more than one!), or some rendering options. If one is printing a map, there is generally a context around (the language of the book, or the place—which is usually the same than the computer’s on which the map is being generated). Maybe I’ve misunderstood have you mean by “general audience” here. I would greatly appreciate example where there is no available default language indirectly provided by the user (’s system) or context. You understand correctly. And yes, you can guess a users language from either http headers or geolocation or even a cookie. But the issue there currently is, is that there is one Mapnik map with the captions rendered in the tiles. To do something about that you would need to make a different caption layer and present the one you think is right for the user viewing the map as an overlay over a non-captioned Mapnik map. Or you have to make different Mapnik styles for different languages and present them also based on those criterea. Or, as I suggested before: make your own map. The german community has one with a different style and lots of placed rendered in German and English. A problem with that is that it takes much more time and storage to make those tiles. I know google does something like it but does it IMHO in a bad way because for me it translates every place into a Dutch name, giving rise to oddities as Ariën-aan-de-Leie. So if you want to go that way, expect it to be less than trivial. The problem arises out of one of the general OSM principles: use the name that is verifiable on the ground. This does not work well for oceans or any international body. No ocean has a sign affixed to it with its name (well, there might be signposts in different countries pointing to it). This is a great point. To me, it seems to point to removing the “name” tag on such places: this information doesn’t correspond to anything “real” (but the “name:en” does). And I don’t even mind if some careless renderers just use “name:en” as a default is the tag “name” is absent: it’s something that should be parametric, but a renderer might just have be designed specifically for English, so whatever. And I would be violently against removing name tags for such places. Oleksiy Muzalyev makes a great point why you should not remove name tags from places. It makes them unfindable. You can not find something which is not in the OSM database. Having them rendered in an unwanted language seems to me to be much more desirable than not being able to find them at all. Regards, Maarten ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] nomoj de internaciaj objektoj / nazwy obiektów międzynarodowych ? names of international objects
I agree with Oleksiy. If you see Qxxx numbers in your editor ONLY it is the editor that should be fixed to fetch the label/description in the local language (of the browser, JOSM, or whatever tool you access our data through). I believe that we should deprecate all wikipedia links as they are just potentially obsolete cruft that can be inferred from the wikidata item. (I am also an editor of Wikidata) If you really want the Wikipedia link displayed fix your editor to fetch the local wikipedia link (if any) for your local language in addition to the label and description. amike salutas pangoSE On 2019-12-06 12:27, Oleksiy Muzalyev wrote: At least in the JOSM editor there is an additional text in English near the wikidata code-title. Since the wikidata title (or name) is usually translated on the wikidata page itself in different languages and it is a part of the accessible database, this text could be in different languages in a map editor. If there is no translation of the wikidata item in a particular language, one can add it, even if there is no Wikipedia article in this language. The wikidata also contains the description and the alternative name. So basically having the wikidata code-name, it is possible to display the name and even the description in any language of choice in a map editor. So wikidata makes makes it technically possible to implement the modern principle stating that the true international language is the translation. Best regards, Oleksiy On 06-Dec-19 11:25, Mateusz Konieczny wrote: Yes, wikidata tag may be useful but it is an alphanumeric gibberish not readable by humans. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Relevance of the “name” tag in places where there is no obvious associated language
Most people know where the Atlantic Ocean, and it is not a problem. But if I want to see, for example, where is the Laptev Sea I cannot find it on the OSM map, not on any layer. Both the Atlantic Ocean and the Laptev Sea could be marked in Latin language as Oceanus Atlanticus and Mare Lapteviorum. It would be understandable enough, in accordance with the scientific tradition, and exactly as it was marked on the original Mercator's map: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4b/Mercator_1569_world_map_composite.jpg (ref.) https://la.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oceanus_Atlanticus https://la.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mare_Lapteviorum Best regards, Oleksiy On 06-Dec-19 12:04, Frederik Ramm wrote: "European Union" or "Atlantic Ocean" aren't usually rendered anyway. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Relevance of the “name” tag in places where there is no obvious associated language
(Long post. TL;DR: I’m presenting the Esperanto community and I am looking for instances where there is no default language involved around the renderer.) IMHO that is more a "he says, she says" argument than anything valid. To me it comes more across that a small community wants to push its own agenda. That may be unfair because I don't know how big the Esperanto community is, so it is IMHO. I am biased. I don't know Esperanto. Therefore I would be against rendering everything that is not nation-specific in Esperanto. Maybe it would be helpful if I can quickly present the language and its community here. This is not meant to be exhaustive, but may help the discussions. I will try to be extra-short, but I’m not super good at that: if you want to skip it, just jump to the line starting with “Anyway, all that to say that”. It is a small community (about 2 million speakers in 2005). It however is internationally recognised as a great community-driving community, as illustrated by its presence (through TEJO) in the United Nation as a key role to coordinate local actions towards vulnerable populations, particularly the ones that has linguistic issues and suffer from the overall forceful usage of the English language. The main driving force of Esperanto is not its number of speakers, but its simplicity to learn (Piron, 1994 ; Flochon, 2000) compared to other languages and its propedeutical nature (that is, it helps learning other languages). As a rough estimate, studies suggest that it takes up to 10 times less time to reach a fluent level in Esperanto than a fluent level in English for Europeans. Non-Europeans need indeed more time, but still much less time than to learn languages such as English or French. Furthermore, this simplicity of the language does not come with loss of expressivity: as a French native speaker and Esperanto speaker, I have huge trouble translating what I say in Esperanto to French, as French is missing some crucial notions in some contexts. Most roots of Esperanto are from Roman and Slavic languages. However, in contrary to most languages, words in Esperanto are rarely just one root. The language is highly agglutinative and comes with a handy set of suffixes that enable to get a whole lexical field from a single root. For instance, “ĉevalo” means horse, “ĉevalino” means mare, “ĉevalido” means colt, “ĉevalisto” means horseman/groom, “ĉevalaro” means horse herd, etc. Of course, these suffixes apply for any other animal: “ŝafo” means sheep, and thus “ŝafino” is a ewe, “ŝafaro” is a “flock of sheep”, etc. So although the roots are indeed Europe-centric, it is not that large an issue as root importation has been restricted as much as possible: if a combination of other words lead to the same result, the root (usually) is not imported. Probably the most important point: the goal of the Esperanto community is not to overcome English in some kind of epic battle. It is to provide language diversity and avoid language imperialism. Hence, the main point of the community is not that Esperanto should be used as the international language instead of English, it’s that there should not be one unique international language: Esperanto should be an international language, not the international language ☺ Anyway, the Esperanto movement is complex, and some parts of it just states that Esperanto should be used for pragmatical reasons as it costs much less to teach it than other languages (a good instance of this is https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rapport_Grin ). That was relatively long, and a bit out of the context — sorry about that. I was hoping that it might help understand the goals of some OSM-esperantists here (and in my experience, it seems that actually many Esperantists use OSM compared to other communities! I may be biaised on that). Anyway, all that to say that I don’t think that using Esperanto names for the “name” tags in places like oceans is a good idea: it doesn’t even meet the goals of Esperantists themselves (well, some, probably). 😅 That’s why I’m really in favor of just removing this tags in such places. Removing the name tag does not solve any problem. The renderer for the map (or any program that needs to display the name tag) needs to make a decision which tag to display. If the name tag is not present it will have to fall back to another one. In cases where you are running a program on your computer, this decision might be easy: the language setting of your computer (like JOSM does). In cases where you make something for a general audience, that decision will not be so easy. Then you will get into this discussion about "what language is used most" or "we don't feel comfortable having an in our eyes non-neutral language pushed up to us". I agree that it does not entirely solve the problem. It however partially solves it: in most contexts, there is a default language defined. Be it the language of the co
Re: [OSM-talk] nomoj de internaciaj objektoj / nazwy obiektów międzynarodowych ? names of international objects
At least in the JOSM editor there is an additional text in English near the wikidata code-title. Since the wikidata title (or name) is usually translated on the wikidata page itself in different languages and it is a part of the accessible database, this text could be in different languages in a map editor. If there is no translation of the wikidata item in a particular language, one can add it, even if there is no Wikipedia article in this language. The wikidata also contains the description and the alternative name. So basically having the wikidata code-name, it is possible to display the name and even the description in any language of choice in a map editor. So wikidata makes makes it technically possible to implement the modern principle stating that the true international language is the translation. Best regards, Oleksiy On 06-Dec-19 11:25, Mateusz Konieczny wrote: Yes, wikidata tag may be useful but it is an alphanumeric gibberish not readable by humans. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Relevance of the “name” tag in places where there is no obvious associated language
On 2019-12-06 11:46, Martin Constantino–Bodin wrote: Some context first. So there has been this changeset that triggered some discussions: https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/77845837 Changeset comments in not a great place for discussion, so I suggest that we continue here. (Thanks @SomeoneElse for the link! ☺) First, The issue comes in places where there is not a particular language, like oceans, most seas, or places like Antartica. In most of these places, the “name” tag is actually using the English name. The issue is that English, despite being a de facto internal language, is felt by some communities as a non-neutral choice, given all the inequalities it yields among people in the world, given its complexity, etc. The Esperanto community is particularly criticising the choice of the English language as an international language. IMHO that is more a "he says, she says" argument than anything valid. To me it comes more across that a small community wants to push its own agenda. That may be unfair because I don't know how big the Esperanto community is, so it is IMHO. The question I would like to ask is about the relevance of having a “name” tag in places where there is no default language—knowing that all the “name:en”, “name:eo”, etc. are already there. I can imagine that some renderers might expect to always be a tag “name”, and I wonder how fixable this is (especially in the cases where there is a localised name). If you have any argumented pointer about this, I would be interested. Removing the name tag does not solve any problem. The renderer for the map (or any program that needs to display the name tag) needs to make a decision which tag to display. If the name tag is not present it will have to fall back to another one. In cases where you are running a program on your computer, this decision might be easy: the language setting of your computer (like JOSM does). In cases where you make something for a general audience, that decision will not be so easy. Then you will get into this discussion about "what language is used most" or "we don't feel comfortable having an in our eyes non-neutral language pushed up to us". I am biased. I don't know Esperanto. Therefore I would be against rendering everything that is not nation-specific in Esperanto. As far as I know, the wiki doesn’t state anything about English being the default language for the name tag: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Names It thus doesn’t feel like this question has already been discussed. However, I never participated in the main OSM mailing list and thus missed any such discussions if they already took place. If so, please give me an argumented link. The problem arises out of one of the general OSM principles: use the name that is verifiable on the ground. This does not work well for oceans or any international body. No ocean has a sign affixed to it with its name (well, there might be signposts in different countries pointing to it). So there is no real solution to it. Removing the name tag does not solve the problem because a renderer might choose to display name:en. Changing the name tag to Esperanto does not solve the problem and doing that on a global scale I would also see as vandalism. Because why Esperanto? Is there a general consensus for that? That is how we operate on OSM. Maybe the esperanto community can solve this by making their own Mapnik tiles and using their own www.openstreetmap.eo domain or using eo.openstreetmap.org. If they (or anyone else) want to look at the map with international names in Esperanto than it is there to use. I for one would welcome something like that with all captions in latin script (like the public transport map, but in full Mapnik style). Regards, Maarten ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Relevance of the “name” tag in places where there is no obvious associated language
6 Dec 2019, 12:04 by frede...@remote.org: > I have reverted a recent edit in which the "name" tag was removed from > some "international" objects by a user (on the grounds of "if I cannot > have an Esperanto name then nobody shall have a name for that object!"), > however in principle, if the community came to the conclusion that this > was a good idea, I would not be opposed. > For things like Atlantic Ocean or Pacific Ocean I would be OK with not adding name tag at all. Though idea of mapping ocean seems suspect to me AFAIK there are many way to divide oceans and there is no consensus See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Borders_of_the_oceans ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Relevance of the “name” tag in places where there is no obvious associated language
Hi, On 06.12.19 12:01, Mateusz Konieczny wrote: > place=continent nodes make no sense at all True but there will likely be some great mind who, just to get a nice "AFRICA" label on zoom level 2, will create a multipolygon encompassing every single piece of coastline around the continent and call that multipolygon "Africa". Every time some poor soul splits up the coastline somewhere in Africa they will wonder why the upload takes five minutes, and soon the Africa multipolygon will be at version 12345... Seeing that this is the inevitable alternative, maybe the place=continent node is the lesser evil. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
[OSM-talk] reviewing documentation of blatant OSM plagiarism (Moovit, MAPS.ME)
I want to document some egregious cases of using OpenStreetMap without required attribution. But I am not a lawyer and not a native speaker, so likely there are many things to improve. Hopefully only minor ones, but feedback is welcomed. https://github.com/matkoniecz/illegal-use-of-OpenStreetMap/blob/master/Moovit/Moovit.md#moovit https://github.com/matkoniecz/illegal-use-of-OpenStreetMap/blob/master/MAPS.ME/MAPS.ME.md#mapsme In case that someone has a bit of a free time - can you look at https://github.com/matkoniecz/illegal-use-of-OpenStreetMap whatever there are some mistakes there? Reviewing Facebook-owned media is the next that I am planning to do. As Facebook own plenty of stuff, help would be welcomed. Has anybody got an access to an Instagram account and can check whatever it is part of the problem? Things to check - are there any maps or geographic data in this app? - is it from OSM? (or there is nothing that could be from OSM) - is it clearly credited to OSM? (or there are no OSM data used) - can you take a screenshot and share it here? (or confirm that this app seems to not be using OSM data without attribution?) https://github.com/matkoniecz/illegal-use-of-OpenStreetMap/issues/3 https://github.com/matkoniecz/illegal-use-of-OpenStreetMap/issues/2 ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Relevance of the “name” tag in places where there is no obvious associated language
Hi, On 06.12.19 11:46, Martin Constantino–Bodin wrote: > The question I would like to ask is about the relevance of having a > “name” tag in places where there is no default language—knowing that all > the “name:en”, “name:eo”, etc. are already there. I can imagine that > some renderers might expect to always be a tag “name”, and I wonder how > fixable this is (especially in the cases where there is a localised > name). I think that the absence of these features on standard maps would not hurt anyone. "European Union" or "Atlantic Ocean" aren't usually rendered anyway. And it would increase the incentive for map makers to use the name:xx values and make maps in the language requested by the viewer. I have reverted a recent edit in which the "name" tag was removed from some "international" objects by a user (on the grounds of "if I cannot have an Esperanto name then nobody shall have a name for that object!"), however in principle, if the community came to the conclusion that this was a good idea, I would not be opposed. At one point in the distant past, there were two groups edit-warring about the name tag for Jerusalem, and it was decided that Jerusalem should not have a name tag at all until they agree on one. Perhaps that idea could be rolled out globally. We've even had the radical idea of removing the "name" tag everywhere, and instead have some way of tagging the default language for regions, so that, if you wanted to emulate today's rendering of the "local name" for everything, you'd first have to look up the local language prefix and then use the appropriate name:xx - but this was considered too complicated. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Relevance of the “name” tag in places where there is no obvious associated language
6 Dec 2019, 11:46 by martin.bo...@ens-lyon.org: > > Some context first. So there has been this changeset that triggered > some discussions: > https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/77845837> > Changeset comments in not a great place for discussion, so I suggest > that we continue here. (Thanks @SomeoneElse for the link! ☺) > > Looking at this changeset I think that solution for some of the element is to simply delete it. place=continent nodes make no sense at all this tag has major problem due to fact that there are multiple competing ways how Earth may be divided into continents. Given low number of continents, fact that collecting this data on ones own is easy and that depending on OSM data is not useful (moving, deleting or changing name of place=continent node would have massive impact on a map)and that it is desirable to tweak label placement for specific maps it is dubious whatever this data is useful. Why https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/36966065 is here and not 200 kilometers to the west? like role=label it is pointless exercise in label placement, tuned for rare (unique?) map using this for label placement. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] OSMF candidate office hours, ask me anything
3 Dec 2019, 20:05 by m...@teczno.com: > Hi everyone, > > I’m one of the twelve candidates running for OSMF board. > It seems that none of video calls times matches my time, so hopefully it is OK to ask here. How you plan to handle an obvious conflict of interest due to your FB employment? For example in topic of enforcing ODBL licence? It is interest of FB to keep all enforcement of OSM license extremely weak, so even recusing yourself from all FB-related issues would not be sufficient. Note that ODBL licence requires notice reasonably calculated tomake any Person that uses, views, or isotherwise exposed to the Produced Work aware that Content wasobtained from the Database and that it is available under thisLicense. IANAL, but it seems to me that current attribution hiding used by FB is not enough to fulfill this requirement and that they are currently using OSM data illegally. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
[OSM-talk] Relevance of the “name” tag in places where there is no obvious associated language
Interesting. I sent a message two days ago with a very similar topic, but it hasn’t yet found a moderator to accept it (or reject it). I’m sending it again here, maybe it can help with the discussion. Regards, Martin. Hi, Some context first. So there has been this changeset that triggered some discussions: https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/77845837 Changeset comments in not a great place for discussion, so I suggest that we continue here. (Thanks @SomeoneElse for the link! ☺) First, here is what is not an issue: the language-specific “name” tags (“name:en”, “name:de”, etc.), and the “name” tags where there is a clear default language (because the place uses a particular language, because it is in a place using this particular language, etc.). The issue comes in places where there is not a particular language, like oceans, most seas, or places like Antartica. In most of these places, the “name” tag is actually using the English name. The issue is that English, despite being a de facto internal language, is felt by some communities as a non-neutral choice, given all the inequalities it yields among people in the world, given its complexity, etc. The Esperanto community is particularly criticising the choice of the English language as an international language. I don’t think that anyone wants to fight about whether English is neutral here: this is not my question. I’m writing this message in English as the title of this mailing list displays in English, but I’m willing to rephrase the question in Esperanto. The question I would like to ask is about the relevance of having a “name” tag in places where there is no default language—knowing that all the “name:en”, “name:eo”, etc. are already there. I can imagine that some renderers might expect to always be a tag “name”, and I wonder how fixable this is (especially in the cases where there is a localised name). If you have any argumented pointer about this, I would be interested. As far as I know, the wiki doesn’t state anything about English being the default language for the name tag: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Names It thus doesn’t feel like this question has already been discussed. However, I never participated in the main OSM mailing list and thus missed any such discussions if they already took place. If so, please give me an argumented link. I tried to formulate the question to avoid having to fight over English vs Esperanto or any debate like that. Please do not fight because of this message: I know how harmful such debates can be ☹ Regards, Martin. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] nomoj de internaciaj objektoj / nazwy obiektów międzynarodowych ? names of international objects
6 Dec 2019, 09:55 by dieterdre...@gmail.com: > > Am Fr., 6. Dez. 2019 um 08:08 Uhr schrieb Maarten Deen <> md...@xs4all.nl> >: > >> On 2019-12-05 22:12, Tomek wrote: >> The adjacent Caspian sea is displayed as دریاچه خزر which is not the >> complete name tag (Каспийское море / Хәзәр дәнизи / دریاچه خزر) but >> looks to me the name:fa (Farsi). >> For me, that is very bad since I can not read Farsi so I don't know what >> is written there. Same applies to Chinese, Japanese, Korean, and a whole >> host of languages that do not use the latin script. >> > > > it can be done (and is already done in some context) to display names in your > own language (or another fallback) in case there aren't letters in latin > script (even an automatic transliteration at display time may be better than > not being able to read the script at all). > Yes, this is a limitation of this specific rendering. > > >> IMHO Openstreetmap does try to be politically and nation independent. >> >> Still, it is a Good Idea to have one standard (language) to communicate >> or define things, like everything meant for an international public in >> the wiki is English and the tag system is English. >> > > > you should argue why it is a good idea to have _one_ standard language in the > project. IMHO it excludes many billions of people from participating > While it is problematic it is hard for me to imagine a better version. I am pretty sure that for example using Polish/Korean/etc words where English one exists would not help. > but I am not sure we could not do better at integrating people from different > cultural contexts. > Oh, that is certainly possible to improve. > It is also a sign we are sending out to the others, whether there is "the > main language English", or whether we communicate that every language is > accepted. > While current situation excludes from this specific mailing list people unable to communicate in written English I doubt that "any language goes" would improve overall situation. Separate channels for various languages seem to be a better idea. >> > Suggestion 2b: use the name in a neutral language, i.e. planned or >> > extinct: Lingvo Internacia Esperanto (EO), Interlingua (IA), Ido (IO), >> > Latin (LA), I don't know Latin, so I would need help. >> > > > none of these is "neutral" and more importantly, none of these seems > "inclusive" and suitable to broaden participation, they are all either > elitist, or at least spoken by very little people, and likely both. > +1 And it would be kind of weird to decide that English is imperialistic therefore we should use Latin to avoid this specific problem. >> > for other places: >> > Suggestion 4a: remove the label "wikipedia" and leave only "wikidata", >> >> I agree that it is strange to have (e.g. for the Caspian Sea >> multipolygon 3987743) wikipedia=en:Caspian Sea when it is not in >> England. Is there a reason for that other than historic? Since there is >> also a wikidata link. >> > > > I am strongly opposing the idea of removing wikipedia article links when > there are wikidata feature links. The former are human readable > Yes, wikidata tag may be useful but it is an alphanumeric gibberish not readable by humans. Human readable tags are very useful, this way human is able to easier verify whatever tags are blatantly wrong. And based on my experience - English language link may be a compromise. Some border peaks/rivers of Poland have also link to English wikipedia as a compromise between mappers from Poland and Ukraine/Belarus/Russia/Chechia/etc. It is better than switching between pl: and ru: link in a pointless edit war. >> > Suggestion 4b: add links in a neutral language: wikipedia=ia: Mar >> > Nigre >> >> Why is Anguilla a neutral language? >> + 1 > > Suggestion 4c: add more links, but in which languages? > > > if "links" is about wikipedia article references, there is already the rule > that one link is sufficient where the other language article is linked as > corresponding in wikipedia. > +1 ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] nomoj de internaciaj objektoj / nazwy obiektów międzynarodowych ? names of international objects
Often people may think that they speak English, but in fact they do not speak it good enough. English seems to be an easy language, but it is as difficult as it gets. Its real complexity is in numerous idiomatic expressions. I would say a person speak English if she/he sat and passed the exam for the C1 or C2 level certificate. For example, CAE or CPE. It would be interesting to know the statistics of how many people in the continental Europe have got the C1 or C2 levels. (ref.) https://www.cambridgeenglish.org/exams-and-tests/advanced/ https://www.cambridgeenglish.org/exams-and-tests/proficiency/ Best regards, Oleksiy On 12/6/19 09:55, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: ... It is convenient for us Europeans, because most of us are able to communicate in English, ... ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] nomoj de internaciaj objektoj / nazwy obiektów międzynarodowych ? names of international objects
Hi, On 06.12.19 09:55, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: > you should argue why it is a good idea to have _one_ standard language > in the project. IMHO it excludes many billions of people from > participating, Let's be careful with the word "exclude". Does the pizzeria around the corner "exclude" billions of people from eating there because its menu is written only in Italian? Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] nomoj de internaciaj objektoj / nazwy obiektów międzynarodowych ? names of international objects
On 2019-12-06 09:55, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: Am Fr., 6. Dez. 2019 um 08:08 Uhr schrieb Maarten Deen : On 2019-12-05 22:12, Tomek wrote: Still, it is a Good Idea to have one standard (language) to communicate or define things, like everything meant for an international public in the wiki is English and the tag system is English. you should argue why it is a good idea to have _one_ standard language in the project. IMHO it excludes many billions of people from Depens on what you use it for. I'm sure you're not arguing for having tag names in chinese. These are all in (UK) English. The same goes for the majority of the wiki pages geared towards the basis of this project. Sure, there are translations (and that is good), but the English page is usually the guideline. I see nothing bad in that. Yes, it implies that you need to be relatively proficient in English to be able to contribute there, but what is the alternative? Going to Esperanto or Chinese will put more people off the project than it will attract. Why is this list called OSM-talk and not OSM-talk-gb? Because it is the main list. And we speak english here. for other places: Suggestion 4a: remove the label "wikipedia" and leave only "wikidata", I agree that it is strange to have (e.g. for the Caspian Sea multipolygon 3987743) wikipedia=en:Caspian Sea when it is not in England. Is there a reason for that other than historic? Since there is also a wikidata link. I am strongly opposing the idea of removing wikipedia article links when there are wikidata feature links. The former are human readable and mostly (?) the original data that the mapper added, the latter are often automatically derived (from wikipedia article references), worse verified, link to a less mature project (a wikidata entity to which I link today may change its nature significantly until tomorrow), are not human readable and a typo in just one digit makes them completely worseless, and there is no 1:1 relation of wikipedia articles and wikidata objects (this is btw. a serious problem which I do not know why the wikidata community doesn't address, they seem to assume that there is just one wikipedia article for one wikidata object and vice versa). I'm not so active in the wikidata project to have seen these problems. I was looking at the Caspian Sea and saw a wikidata link that has 175 wikipedia links in it. Yes, you can get that too by opening the English wikipedia page page, but that again does nothing against the "English dominance" argument. But then again, the wikidata page also does not do that because it is in English only. Please also note that "wikipedia:en" is not about "England", it is the It is not about England, it is about the perceived English dominance of the project. knowledge of the world collected in the English language (btw. it is the wikipedia version with most articles). With all Precisely. So I found your comment "you should argue why it is a good idea to have _one_ standard language in the project." a bit odd. Why is that English knowledge better than the wikipedia:cn page? Just because it is English? The fact of the matter is that a brit started the project, that alone gives a lot of credibility to using English as native language for the project. Above and beyond that, English just is the main language, at least of the western world. And that has nothing to do with wanting to rule the world. I'm not British or American and I'm perfectly ok with this situation. And lets face it, if a Chinese person had started this, most of us probably would not have know about it because it was all in Chinese. Regards, Maarten ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] nomoj de internaciaj objektoj / nazwy obiektów międzynarodowych ? names of international objects
For many geographical names there are articles in the Latin version of Wikipedia. For example, for the Black Sea: https://la.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pontus_Euxinus for Poland: https://la.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polonia , for Canada: https://la.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canada , etc. So if one wishes to add a name in Latin, i.e. name:la in the editor, it is possible just to look it up in the Latin version of Wikipedia. The Latin language was widely used in the cartography and in science in general over the past centuries. For example Isaac Newton's book "Philosophiæ Naturalis Principia Mathematica", one of the most important works in the history of science, was published in 1687 in Latin. And it is still used in science nowadays. The legacy of the Rēs pūblica Rōmāna & Imperium Rōmānum, including its language, is so enormous that it can never get extinct. At the same time the Latin does not have a standing army any more. So it is indeed kind of neutral. What is beneficial and safer for mappers in some parts. Besides the name in Latin is often recognizable for people who speak English, French, German, etc. Even for people from the Cyrillic, Chinese, Korean, etc. background it is often also understandable, since the Latin alphabet is studied at the elementary school. Please, note that the titles of some Wikipedia articles change from time to time. The titles of wikidata items change much less frequently. By adding the wikidata tag we add also the Wikipedia articles indirectly, since the links to articles in all available language versions are present on the wikidata page. Besides, a wikidata item is a part of the database, so it is also machine-readable, while a Wikipedia article is just an HTML page intended for reading by humans. Best regards, Oleksiy Suggestion 2b: use the name in a neutral language, i.e. planned or extinct: Lingvo Internacia Esperanto (EO), Interlingua (IA), Ido (IO), Latin (LA), I don't know Latin, so I would need help. Suggestion 2b: use the name in a neutral language ... or extinct: ... Latin (LA), I don't know Latin, so I would need help. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] tagtransform for OSM - An effort make tagging and using OSM data easier; bridging different worlds together
What you describe is a rather trivial case. I agree that using OSM requires knowledge about all possible tagging methods. But even when you store all phone numbers as contact:phone in the database, all data consumers will still need to offer that data when people ask for phone. Especially in the case where the mapper said "store phone=..." in the database and later wants to retrieve it. The mapper does not know that the system translated that into "contact:phone". Who will be in charge of deciding what gets transformed into another tag? Is shop=estate_agent and office=estate_agent exactly the same, or does that represent a real-world difference on how estate agents work in the world? Another example is url and contact:url, website, heritage:website. Are they really the same, or do some people use them for different purposes and perhaps multiple of them on 1 object. And what about more complex similar mappings: - a separate cycleway or cycleway=track on the main road - a separate footway or sidewalk=... - postal_code on address point or a postal code boundary - address information on building or as separate node - POI as separate node or on the building - traffic signals tag on the junction or as separate nodes on the incoming ways. - the whole discussion on landuse=forest,natural=wood,landcover=trees which are the same for some but not for others. Those cannot be easily converted from one format to another I fear that data consumers will always have to cope with multiple tagging methods. I feel it is better to properly document those "synonyms" so data consumers are aware of them and can deal with them as they like. If we have a bunch of scripts to help them with this process, the better. But the database should reflect what the mapper wrote, not some modified version of it. regards m. On Thu, Dec 5, 2019 at 6:40 PM Sören Reinecke via talk wrote: > > Hey all, > > I currently write a specification for tranforming tags in OpenStreetMap to > make life of all stakeholders easier. Different tagging schemes have emerged > since the existence of OpenStreetMap, same are existing in parallel and a > newer ones deprecated old ones. Data customers without knowing the OSM > community much get lost, mappers use deprecated tagging schemes and newbies > get overhelmed by the bunch of possibilities OSM gives (they do not know > exactly how to map). This project aims to help developers and mappers who > want to take advantage of/contribute to the OpenStreetMap great database > which is by the way a brilliant project. This project can also help to make > tagging in OSM more orthogonal and more hassle free. > > I saw conflicting interests between OSM community, OSM developers like the iD > developers and data customers. A renderer might need data in another way as > the community contributes. The community might need another tagging scheme > than a renderer. I thought how we can resolve this, how we can get all sites > on "one table" and that is the idea I had come up with: A specification and > scripts helping to preprocess data for each group. But I hope to achieve in > long term that the community comes together with developers, approves the > automatic toggleable function "correcting tagging by means of the community" > e.g. A mapper is typing in `phone=+33 6156 785847887948950` but the converted > form `contact:phone=+33 6156 785847887948950` will appear in database. This > would make use of short-hands possible and makes life of tagging easier. > > The project bridges different worlds and is therefore a bridge. As bridge > this project should not just connect different worlds together and by > ensuring peace between those but also support exchange between those to > develop a social economy of "send and receive" This project should support > the "come together" of (OSM) developers and mappers. > > > A more readable version can be found here: > https://github.com/ValorNaram/transformation-table-osmtags/blob/master/README.md > and the principles can be found at > https://github.com/ValorNaram/transformation-table-osmtags/blob/master/principles.md > > --- > > Example 1: They want to have the phone number of a POI. There are some > problems with this: > > 1. They need to know both contact:phone and phone to get them all. > 2. They need to support them both. > 3. They need to remove one in case both keys are mapped on one POI. This > really happens, see http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/OI2. > > Example 2: They want to know how many POI's have changing tables (general: > facilities for changing a nappy of a baby). There are some problems with this > too: > > 1. They need to know both changing_table and the deprecated diaper to get > them all. > 2. They need to support them both. Difficult because they're highly > different tagging schemes. > 3. They need to remove one in case both keys are mapped on one POI. This > really happens, see http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/O
Re: [OSM-talk] nomoj de internaciaj objektoj / nazwy obiektów międzynarodowych ? names of international objects
Am Fr., 6. Dez. 2019 um 08:08 Uhr schrieb Maarten Deen : > On 2019-12-05 22:12, Tomek wrote: > The adjacent Caspian sea is displayed as دریاچه خزر which is not the > complete name tag (Каспийское море / Хәзәр дәнизи / دریاچه خزر) but > looks to me the name:fa (Farsi). > For me, that is very bad since I can not read Farsi so I don't know what > is written there. Same applies to Chinese, Japanese, Korean, and a whole > host of languages that do not use the latin script. it can be done (and is already done in some context) to display names in your own language (or another fallback) in case there aren't letters in latin script (even an automatic transliteration at display time may be better than not being able to read the script at all). IMHO Openstreetmap does try to be politically and nation independent. > > Still, it is a Good Idea to have one standard (language) to communicate > or define things, like everything meant for an international public in > the wiki is English and the tag system is English. > you should argue why it is a good idea to have _one_ standard language in the project. IMHO it excludes many billions of people from participating, and confirms the Anglo-Saxon dominance in the tech world also in the mapping world. It is convenient for us Europeans, because most of us are able to communicate in English, but I am not sure we could not do better at integrating people from different cultural contexts. It is also a sign we are sending out to the others, whether there is "the main language English", or whether we communicate that every language is accepted. In practical terms, I agree it is hard to imagine how you and me could contribute to a proposal in Chinese, Farsi or even Swahili. Also reducing the "any language" to "the UN languages" would bring in serious (currently unsurmountable) overhead if we required for instance proposals to be translated into all UN languages. > > > Suggestion 2b: use the name in a neutral language, i.e. planned or > > extinct: Lingvo Internacia Esperanto (EO), Interlingua (IA), Ido (IO), > > Latin (LA), I don't know Latin, so I would need help. > none of these is "neutral" and more importantly, none of these seems "inclusive" and suitable to broaden participation, they are all either elitist, or at least spoken by very little people, and likely both. From a practical point of view, most people worldwide are able to communicate in English and Mandarin Chinese, according to SIL International, 2019, there's just a 20 Million difference in favor of English speakers, and there is three times more people with Chinese as mothertongue). Following in this list [1], there is with roughly half the speakers, Hindi and Spanish. Again half of these, French, Arabic, Bengali, Russian, then Portugese, Indonesian, then Urdu, then German and Japanese, followed by Swahili as the first language below 100 Million speakers, and so on. > > Suggestion 3: for a place with fewer names, I suggest using several > > labels: > > wikipedia: ru = Чёрное море + wikipedia: ro = Marea Neagră, > > What have wikipedia article links to do with "labels"? > > for other places: > > Suggestion 4a: remove the label "wikipedia" and leave only "wikidata", > > I agree that it is strange to have (e.g. for the Caspian Sea > multipolygon 3987743) wikipedia=en:Caspian Sea when it is not in > England. Is there a reason for that other than historic? Since there is > also a wikidata link. > I am strongly opposing the idea of removing wikipedia article links when there are wikidata feature links. The former are human readable and mostly (?) the original data that the mapper added, the latter are often automatically derived (from wikipedia article references), worse verified, link to a less mature project (a wikidata entity to which I link today may change its nature significantly until tomorrow), are not human readable and a typo in just one digit makes them completely worseless, and there is no 1:1 relation of wikipedia articles and wikidata objects (this is btw. a serious problem which I do not know why the wikidata community doesn't address, they seem to assume that there is just one wikipedia article for one wikidata object and vice versa). Please also note that "wikipedia:en" is not about "England", it is the knowledge of the world collected in the English language (btw. it is the wikipedia version with most articles). With all > > > Suggestion 4b: add links in a neutral language: wikipedia=ia: Mar > > Nigre > > Why is Anguilla a neutral language? Mar Nigre looks French to me, why is > that a neutral language? Should it be Esperanto? Why would that be a > neutral language since it is > written in latin alphabet? Also Esperanto to me seems more like a > western language than an eastern/asian language. it is clearly a Roman language (intended as somehow strongly related to/derived from Latin), as is Esperanto and probably many more (e.g. interlingua sounds so as well). None of these ca
