Re: [OSM-talk] Preserving History ...
Hi Lester, All of the resources you linked, you can improve! * https://github.com/hotosm/learnosm * https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Beginners%27_guideaction=edit * http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Editing_Standards_and_Conventionsaction=edit You should fix these things, if you care about them. On Tue, Aug 25, 2015 at 11:16 AM, Lester Caine les...@lsces.co.uk wrote: On 25/08/15 15:10, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: Because 'it's easier to delete and start again' is encouraged rather than 'preserve the history of development' where someone HAS already spent the time doing that in the past so much is being lost! can you expand on this? Where are people encouraged to delete rather than refine? I've always thought we would actually be encouraging people to retain history We encourage new users to use iD ... The first button on the tool pallet when you click on a line is 'Delete' and there are not covering notes in the learnOSM guide to suggest that it should only be used when necessary. Actually the getting started guide just ploughs straight in to adding stuff without any reference to the etiquette of modifying what is there already. http://learnosm.org/en/ Beginners Guide on the wiki http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Beginners%27_guide is even lighter on guidelines ... Editing Standards page http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Editing_Standards_and_Conventions only has a 'If you choose to delete and redraw a whole road, check that the nodes don't themselves have tag' which should perhaps be a 'please do not delete a whole road as previous information will be lost'. Checking in the help forum many of the questions that as 'why can't I delete xxx' make no mention of why that should be a last resort. https://help.openstreetmap.org/questions/41329/cant-edit-or-delete-street is a typical example but there was no mention on NOT deleting it. Actually I have yet to find ANY advise that advises simply refining what is there? ( And I'm still trying to track down the history of the Tollbar A46 route changes. Not sure if some if the history was redacted but I'm sure that these main roads were present ten years back. ) -- Lester Caine - G8HFL - Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/ Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk Rainbow Digital Media - http://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Preserving History ...
It seems like the only thing you're contributing is negativity. On Tue, Aug 25, 2015 at 12:15 PM, Lester Caine les...@lsces.co.uk wrote: On 25/08/15 16:29, Tom MacWright wrote: All of the resources you linked, you can improve! * https://github.com/hotosm/learnosm * https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Beginners%27_guideaction=edit * http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Editing_Standards_and_Conventionsaction=edit You should fix these things, if you care about them. My improvement would be 'Don't touch iD with a barge pole!' :) But the JOSM snippets are interesting and proper documentation on just how we can observe best practice to maintain history is something which is missing. But to go with this I think that adding warnings to any delete action IN the editors would be more help. That is in the absence of simply disabling 'delete' on objects that are already part of the database. I am gathering more notes on how material is being lost because of the way delete is handled, but I need to get the tile server live first while still paying the bills ... -- Lester Caine - G8HFL - Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/ Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk Rainbow Digital Media - http://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] The Proposed Great Colour Shift
On the topic of whether we can or should notify everyone who may potentially be affected by this change so their opinions can be registered, you may enjoy this read: http://www.ftrain.com/wwic.html On Sat, Aug 22, 2015 at 8:12 AM, Tobias Knerr o...@tobias-knerr.de wrote: On 20.08.2015 10:09, Christoph Hormann wrote If you think a different styling than what is currently proposed would be better it would be best to show it. It's hardly fair to expect critics of the suggested new style to easily come up with alternatives. For one, the effort in question was enabled by sponsorship by Google, and took place over several months. This is not easily duplicated by those favouring other ideas. But more importantly, it discounts all those voices who favour the status quo. Personally, I think that the problems with the current style are relatively minor, and don't automatically justify a drastic change. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Mappers and apps should focus on relations at the very start
I see that the problem in iD is really easy to solve (much easier than in Potlach). Please never say this. Estimating that someone else's task, in their domain of experience, is simple, is almost always incorrect, and usually overstepping. This painting looks pretty easy to paint: can you finish it in an afternoon. If something is easy to do, please try doing it yourself and seeing whether it is. Otherwise, don't tell other people that things should be easy for them to do, so they should do what you want. People have been saying for quite a while that it would be pretty easy for us to improve the software that manages and edit OpenStreetMap, but none of them have decided to do it in an afternoon, much less own the responsibility of maintaining and defending the changes. iD has, to date, consumed thousands of hours of developer time, communications, documentation authoring, and design. The same goes for Potlatch and JOSM and the website. Developing these projects is even more time-consuming because every change needs to be discussed to death, everyone must be consulted, and then after release, we have to catch up with all of the people who want to be consulted but don't read the mailing list. In short, if you believe this is easy, do it. Otherwise, don't underestimate other people's tasks. On Sun, Jun 28, 2015 at 2:34 PM, Fernando Trebien fernando.treb...@gmail.com wrote: On Sun, Jun 28, 2015 at 4:03 AM, Richard Fairhurst rich...@systemed.net wrote: What is unacceptable is the relentless, harrying, dismissive, abusive manner in which you and others advance the former view over the latter. That is why we cannot retain developers. We really need to be careful to target the philosophical standpoint, not the people. As I said (now countless times), iD is awesome. I don't think I've been criticizing developer talent or code quality. I wouldn't have provided most of its translations into my language if I thought differently. Anyway, should this conversation be about iD? In a way yes, but not only. Other editors (except JOSM) seem to have the same aversion of relations. Relations are valuable and are not going away, several of them (the most critical being route) have been approved long ago by the community (by consensus, by public voting), so I believe fighting them only make things worse. Fighting them is fighting the community. Others, such as boundary, are de facto standards. They have to be properly tamed. One way is to hide them so that only clever people can deal with them. Another is to teach everybody in the simplest possible manner so that they become widely accessible. Cliché quote: Make things as simple as possible, but not simpler, some attribute to Einstein. When people are deleting and combining ways, they are editing invisible data - tags and parent relations. In a world without relations, combining different tags would still be an issue. For instance, the sidewalk tag is not visible. It should be visible. If it ever becomes visible, there is still a huge repository of approved tags that won't be. The current approach - concatenation - is essentially invisible in many situations (the user must pay a lot of attention at the result). I would like to see a scenario where a casual mapper (the target audience of all editors besides JOSM) would prefer not to be notified about a potential mistake. I do mapping sprints very often, I'm knowledgeable, and even so I prefer to get interrupted in my mapping whenever I do something potentially damaging. Without that, even with my experience, I would have broken data multiple times. How is that casual mappers would prefer not to have that? It is a contradiction to design the application for casual mappers and still place fastest mapping at utmost priority. A casual mapper is not aware of the data model, and should not be expected to be so. Back to the problem that motivated me into this discussion: I see that the problem in iD is really easy to solve (much easier than in Potlach). If there is an objection to an interaction-blocking modal window, other non-blocking visual cues can be used, such as a distinctive alert bar at the bottom, an alert icon at the action button, and an alert log on top after an action breaks something. Anything that informs the user is fine. It is not done only due to a philosophical opinion, which I think is negative to OSM as a whole. The opinion is negative, not the people that hold it. Maybe people are also being idealistic: instead of implementing a little workaround, they'd rather wait and see if a cleverer, less intrusive solution emerges. It is clearly not happening, after two years of waiting and wondering by the most involved minds in the project. Getting a simple alert when deleting relation members was a huge struggle. Since combining implies deleting I don't think the current issue should need to be so widely discussed. The only reason I don't set out
Re: [OSM-talk] Mappers and apps should focus on relations at the very start
An onboarding guide which explains relations to the extent that a mapper could confidently edit them would be quite a bit more than that. Welcome to OpenStreetMap! This is a visual editor which lets you define things that you see in the world and their spatial component, specifically in a map form. However, the most important part of the map is a non-visible semantic relational attribute of the data. These relations are abstract groups that can contain zero elements, or thousands. They can contain other relations. Maybe they can even contain themselves. Almost all of the time, a relation with zero members is a mistake, except for one case where it isnt.[2] The distinction between relations as a bug in the data and as a legitimate, complex semantic statement is not something we can autodetect, so use your judgment. Cool: let's start editing relations. Well, first, earlier we said that relations aren't spatial. Well, some are, some aren't. Maybe half and half. Some are used to structure multipolygon geometries. Okay, but most relations are invisible. You're editing the map, but the relation is for routing software or maybe a very large polygon which is limited by some technical limits that we'll get into later. Regardless, when you break those kinds of relations, you won't know, because you can't see the breakage on the map, only in some software that you probably aren't using. Great, so relations are groups of things that can be zero or many, for technical reasons, spatial relationships, or abstract relationships. Now we're getting started. Relations, unlike sets in math, are ordered. Unlike ordered sets, they also have special ways in which each element is contained. So they're kind of like ordered, semantic sets of potentially anything. And, typically, invisible. Now that we've discussed the basics of relations, let's cover each of the different kinds, including each kind's stipulations of what is contained, whether order matters, and the role tags that are unique to each use-case. ...You can see where this is going: I haven't started to explain what you use relations for, and we've already seen the sort of mountain of unpredictable complexity they add to the OpenStreetMap data model - one of the fundamental things that makes it both more powerful than most data models and incompatible with all other data models. The problem coming from the building an editor perspective is that relations add a level of complexity to the question of not breaking data that wholly explains why it's such a rarely attempted feat to edit all openstreetmap data. I would love if this problem were fixable with documentation, but unfortunately, this is actually just a deep issue that isn't easy to document, and iD would still be grilled on the regular for not preventing people from doing things. The data model could be improved in a few ways: if it embraced the long-awaited area datatype[1] and stopped using relations as a brittle stopgap around multipolygons and node limits. Or if it specified enforced well-established types of relations in such a way that the validity of an editor's approach was agreed-on rather than constantly argued about. And it's not that I hate relations: they are truly one of the only successful instances of linked data in the entire world of computers. They're also a legitimate reflection of the world's actual complexity. But reconciling their ephemeral, non-visual, intensely-freeform properties with the ideal of a map of the world everyone can edit is not a simple matter. Tom [1]: http://blog.jochentopf.com/2012-11-26-an-area-datatype-for-osm.html [2]: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Empty_relations On Sat, Jun 27, 2015 at 12:58 PM, Fernando Trebien fernando.treb...@gmail.com wrote: This is surely going to spur controversy, but here I go. Imagine a world in which a new mapper opens its (newly-discovered) favourite editor and is presented with the following message the first time they edit anything: You can map using points and relations. Relations are groups of things with specific roles: groups of points make lines, groups of lines can make things like routes bus routes, city boundaries, hollow buildings, turn restrictions, etc., groups of routes can make route networks. Mappers rarely group further, but they could. Because lines are very common, you can draw them by simply adding many points one after another. If you want to make more complex relations such as routes and boundaries, check out the relation editor. Of course, such an editor would have to be designed with that philosophy in mind from the start. Is this a rant? Not really, this a sincere impression I've had for a very long time. Many novice users are confused by relations because they need to build their understanding later, often when someone complains they've made some mistake. When this notion of grouping is presented at the very beginning, I believe people will easily understand it for
Re: [OSM-talk] Some thoughts against remote mapping
Please consult all of my previous responses to the previous threads on this identical topic for the responses I would write to the inevitable responses to this thread. On Tue, Jun 16, 2015 at 12:43 PM, Michał Brzozowski www.ha...@gmail.com wrote: I was imagining a new OSM editing program and thought about making provisions in the API for editor programs to wait for edits to be approved (so that it's still posted as the actual user). But it would get too tricky, considering just conflicts for instance. So in this form it's unsuitable. The thing is, we blame noobs often, whereas I see that it's iD's shortcomings. People notoriously add bare names to address points (without a meaningful tag) to add POIs - there are thousands of them just in Poland. Other offenders are opening_hours written in national languages. As someone said, iD editor developers aren't keen on providing warnings to the user. And their logic seems to be out of touch with mapping community. See https://github.com/openstreetmap/iD/issues/2366#issuecomment-57371665 and https://github.com/openstreetmap/iD/issues/2325 ). I don't buy this BS - a name is better than nothing - experienced mapper time is precious, period. We JOSMers often forget that iD is there and it gets neglected. Go and try mapping something, act as a person who knows nothing about OSM: you'll be surprised about how many gotchas there are that are taken for granted, even if you are a theoretical noob with ideal cognitive ability (but who only does what is said to do). For me the essence of making a noob-friendly editor is to have it more task-oriented, data-aware and leaving nothing to chance. There is a simple thing that could massively help: first select feature type, then draw it. It paves way to many improvements and benefits, such as contextual help that isn't obnoxious at all and is likely to be more effective. iD could offer some sort of I want to... (add a building, mark a highway one-way, and much more) oriented mini-tutorials. In these you would tell all these gotchas, like how to place a building properly (not at the roof, but at the base). Allowing regional communities to have a say in iD development is also needed. Different countries have their own conventions on street names, addresses and so on. This is marginalized currently. Oh man, what a hell of an off-topic. Michał On Tue, Jun 16, 2015 at 5:28 PM, Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org wrote: Hi, On 06/15/2015 09:55 PM, john whelan wrote: Perhaps we need something like the HOT validation system in OSM more generally but I don't know how it would work. Locally OSM mappers have used a rich range of tags, I'd say about 25% other than highways didn't get rendered for one reason or another when they were initially tagged. On the German forum and mailing lists, occasionally newbies will pop up and say I've mapped this and that, could somebody have a look if everything is correct? Perhaps it could be as easy as setting a changeset tag review=yes please, and then a small web site listing changesets that have this tag and don't yet have a review discussion entry or something, so experienced mappers could look if there's something in need of review in their area. I'd be very careful to make sure this is voluntary; even a hint at a possible *mandatory* review process will immediately have everyone pointing out where this has got Google ;) Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09 E008°23'33 ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] OSM is a right mess (was: Craigslist OpenStreetMap Rendering Issue)
Hi Mike, Please propose an alternative. On Tue, Jun 2, 2015 at 8:22 PM, Eugene Alvin Villar sea...@gmail.com wrote: On Jun 3, 2015 8:06 AM, pmailkeey . pmailk...@googlemail.com wrote: OSM's k=v design is completely a serious and unnecessary flaw. [...] OSM is 90% argument, 5% dead-end discussions and 5% progress. The whole is not a marketable product; it's not fit to be rated as 'beta'. Is this a significant cause of ex-mappers ? It's a flipping brilliant project but sadly lacking a great leader. It seems you are deeply unsatisfied with how OSM works. And your broad assertions such as that OSM is not fit or is 90% argument are completely unfounded. Sure, OSM is not perfect but I seriously doubt that the k=v design or some other point you have raised is the culprit. Feel free to leave and create a separate project. You can even be the great leader for that new project that you think OSM needs. If your ideas are indeed better, then your project will succeed and you can then prove OSM wrong. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] GeoHipster comment on OSM
Perhaps TeleNav or Bing's lawyers are brave enough to say ODbL is not a problem, or they guess that those entities could absorb the lawsuit. They are the only lawyers who take this stance, and they haven't tested it - neither company provides permanent OSM-derived geocoding. Everywhere else, cautious lawyers and lawyers are the same thing. On Thu, Apr 30, 2015 at 8:52 PM, Steve Coast st...@asklater.com wrote: I love Gary - I think it’s great that OSM is getting to the point that people will write 100 page critiques of it. We must be doing something right. :-) I actually tried on the single point of contact issue, I think it’d be a great idea for OSM to have a 1-800 (or similar) number. Even manned by volunteers. But at the time, companies are evil and all that so it didn’t go anywhere. ODbL critique is the usual thing; people want to take OSM and merge it with other people’s datasets without giving back, perhaps for good reasons. That’s not an ambiguity, it’s the whole point. There are edge cases and complexities like geocoding, but as far as I can see some lawyers can work with it, cautious lawyers tend to make it a big issue. It’s a shame some organizations are trapped by cautious advice like that - I’ve worked in organizations with more positive advice around OSM and it means you can go a lot further. Best Steve On Apr 30, 2015, at 6:29 PM, Nicholas G Lawrence nicholas.g.lawre...@tmr.qld.gov.au wrote: http://geohipster.com/2015/04/27/gary-gale-dear-osm-its-time-to-get-your-finger-out/ Anyone read this blog piece by Gary Gale? Is it worth commenting on? *“**To my mind there’s two barriers to greater and more widespread adoption, both of which can be overcome if there’s sufficient will to overcome them within the OSM community as a whole. These barriers are, in no particular order … licensing, and OSM not being seen as (more) conducive to working with business.”* 1) Gary criticises OSM for not having a single point of contact for business to liaise with. Exactly why this is necessary is a mystery to me. If business wants to make use of OSM data, they can download the planet file just like anyone else. If business wants to contribute data, or donate equipment or sponsor events, those things are also possible. 2) Gary criticises the ODbL for ambiguities in the share-alike clause. Maybe this needs clarification, but personally I think the share-alike clause is a good thing. Fundamentally though, Gary seems to be under the impression that OSM has a driving need to “compete” with other providers of geospatial data, and that if OSM hasn’t “won the race” then it is failing somehow. Which I think reveals a vast ignorance of the motivations of the majority of OSM volunteers. Anyway, I wondered if anyone else had seen the post. Cheers, Nick *** WARNING: This email (including any attachments) may contain legally privileged, confidential or private information and may be protected by copyright. You may only use it if you are the person(s) it was intended to be sent to and if you use it in an authorised way. No one is allowed to use, review, alter, transmit, disclose, distribute, print or copy this email without appropriate authority. If this email was not intended for you and was sent to you by mistake, please telephone or email me immediately, destroy any hardcopies of this email and delete it and any copies of it from your computer system. Any right which the sender may have under copyright law, and any legal privilege and confidentiality attached to this email is not waived or destroyed by that mistake. It is your responsibility to ensure that this email does not contain and is not affected by computer viruses, defects or interference by third parties or replication problems (including incompatibility with your computer system). Opinions contained in this email do not necessarily reflect the opinions of the Department of Transport and Main Roads, or endorsed organisations utilising the same infrastructure. *** ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] iD Security
Please link to the ticket: https://github.com/openstreetmap/iD/issues/2588 On Tue, Apr 21, 2015 at 10:39 AM, pmailkeey . pmailk...@googlemail.com wrote: Hi All, I've been using iD for a bit now to make map edits. I've been reporting back issues with iD to Bryan including a recent discovery that when you log out of iD, as it doesn't clear local cookies someone else can log in as you in your absence. Bryan isn't interested in remedying this issue so I wondered what other users felt about it. -- Mike. @millomweb https://sites.google.com/site/millomweb/index/introduction - For all your info on Millom and South Copeland via *the area's premier website - * *currently unavailable due to ongoing harassment of me, my family, property pets* TCs https://sites.google.com/site/pmailkeey/e-mail ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] spammy survey questions.
It's fun to be flippant amongst ourselves, where our sense of sarcasm is precisely tuned. But this screed isn't the message we should send to the outside world, to a person wondering what's up with the OpenStreetMap community. Surveys can be annoying. Maybe we want to have a protocol for them, instead of implicitly allowing them as we currently do. Let's figure that out instead of joking about ruining some PhD candidate's research. On Mon, Mar 2, 2015 at 7:02 PM, Cristian Consonni kikkocrist...@gmail.com wrote: Hi, 2015-03-03 0:38 GMT+01:00 Richard Weait rich...@weait.com: I'm no fan researchers sending messages to OpenStreetMap users via the messaging system. I consider them an intrusion. And I've complained about them here, before. There is another one making the rounds. Seems like there are more of these every time I turn around. [...] You could ignore the survey and surveyor. Report them to DWG. They are spamming, after all. And we hate spammers. Report them to their university research ethics office. I earlier suggested that we retag their university as a day care or kindergarten. Or public toilet. But that would be wrong. Don't hack OpenStreetMap; hack the survey. I believe that if you consider this surveys to be spam you should do, IMHO, one of the following: 1) ignore it 2) report them as spam to the OSM Foundation 3) contact the author to say you consider this action to be spam I don't see how giving fake answers is going to help, but maybe it is just me or maybe you were just kidding. To be clear, there is great opportunity for OpenStreetMap to learn about itself through research. But that will have to be done in coordination with the Foundation and under our terms. Out of curiosity, does the OSM Foundation have a policy in this respect? If no, I think it is a little to much to ask people to respect in advance a policy with does not exist yet. The Foundation has all the mean to adopt a clear policy with the consensus of the community and make it part of some Terms of Use of the OSM messaging system. For comparison, the Wikimedia Foundation has a Research portal on Meta wiki[1] and, for example, they can also provide access to non-public data (e.g. server logs) for research purposes but there are requirements[2] as for example the pubblication of results with an Open Access license. In short, don't wait for people to come up with a solution. propose a solution! There are examples available so it is not even that difficult. Cristian [1] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Research:Index [2] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Research:Access_to_non-public_data ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] this has to stop: iD user mistakes all over the place
Since two years ago, iD has an range of validations it runs on every potential changeset, as well as an interface to review correct potential errors before saving them. https://github.com/openstreetmap/iD/blob/master/js/id/validate.js#L1 We welcome contributions to expand these, and have a few proposed additions which would be good places to start if you want to help: https://github.com/openstreetmap/iD/issues?q=is%3Aopen+is%3Aissue+label%3Avalidation On Thu, Feb 12, 2015 at 8:44 PM, Michał Brzozowski www.ha...@gmail.com wrote: I was wondering, what do you think (interpret this only as a question) about introducing validation in iD in the future? Using MAGIC integrated circuit design tool, that does DRC (Design Rule Check) in real time and highlights errors inspired me that OSM editors could also incorporate this. It makes sense to me. First, users will not be overwhelmed by a sh**load of errors at once and second, they could learn what they actually do wrong. But this poses challenges, because sometimes when you're editing, there will be a temporary error state, to disappear just when you finish a sequence (e.g. you don't enter all tags at once so there will be a transient place of worship without religion error.) That type of error message should not happen, because spamming irrelevant errors only makes users ignore them. Still, there are checks that can be safely made in real time, like all sorts of geometrical tests (self-intersections, building crossing another building and so on.). Maybe good-enough heuristics could be applied for when the user stopped editing a feature and moved on to another, to address the temporary error issue. Anyway, thanks in advance to anyone who makes iD more iDiot-proof. It really matters a lot, for example there was press coverage (Polish News Agency) back in 2014-08-18 that generated 500 or more new users who obviously contributed a fair share of mistakes. There was simply no manpower available to check edits of all the users, let alone message them on what they did wrong. Having no severe errors is quite a point of honor to me, as I think we must try to be free of all these that cursed satnav told me to do this situations. Steve Jobs once told something along the lines of We don't ship junk. We make products that we could recommend to our family and friends and surely anyone tech-savvy can relate to that feeling of embarrassment when a cool gadget/software you show to your family happens to betray you. Have your navigation lead you off-road (see: wrong road tagging), people will tell that OSM is shit even though other map products are not ideal as well. Michał ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] this has to stop: iD user mistakes all over the place
ICYMI, Richard Fairhurst contributed a patch to fix this problem that we're currently reviewing for inclusion: https://github.com/openstreetmap/iD/pull/2526 On Thu, Feb 12, 2015 at 10:01 AM, Jo winfi...@gmail.com wrote: Thank you for dismissing all our arguments in one fell swoop. The difference with reported bugs, is that said bugs did get addressed. If we are anti-anything it's anti-having-to-cleanup-with-no-possibility-to-shut-close-the-source-of-the-cause-of-precious-time-wasters. If people were consciously breaking the data, this would most certainly be called vandalism. If you manage to burn out the regular contributors is OSM, you will have done the whole community a major disservice. Then there is the suggestion: it must not be a problem, as nobody bothered to create a pull request. We are mappers, not JS programmers and how hard can it really be to create dialogs to interact with your users? No need for external contributions to accomplish that, all that's needed is the willingness to stop annoying the rest of the community. 2015-02-12 0:40 GMT+01:00 Tom MacWright t...@macwright.org: We also aimed to have no bugs and like every software project before us, have failed to achieve that goal. The uproar about iD is the same as the uproar about the map style, website, user groups, code of conduct, Steve Coast, the board, imports, license change, attribution, and practically everything else about OpenStreetMap. It's not anti-iD bias, of course. It's anti-everything bias. On Wed, Feb 11, 2015 at 6:33 PM, Bryce Nesbitt bry...@obviously.com wrote: On Wed, Feb 11, 2015 at 1:08 PM, Tom MacWright t...@macwright.org wrote: Ever since 2012, in the second commit ever, Not breaking other people's data has been one of the three clearly stated public design goals of iD. This goal does not appear to have been carried out. The iD project comes off as tone deaf to breaking data concerns: Look at the uproar over issues of breaking data. Look at the core team response, which is mostly defensive posturing, not oriented to solutions. Why has iD taken such a beating on the mailing list breaking data issues? I don't think it's just anti-iD bias. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] this has to stop: iD user mistakes all over the place
How is an open source project that was open source on day one, was publicly communicated from day one, heavily explained in time-consuming technical blog posts, has 77 contributors, and has accepted hundreds of pull requests tightly held. On Wed, Feb 11, 2015 at 11:39 AM, Bryce Nesbitt bry...@obviously.com wrote: On Wed, Feb 11, 2015 at 8:25 AM, Tom MacWright t...@macwright.org wrote: Unfortunately, experience suggests that there's relatively little that a discussion on on the talk mailing list is going to be able to do here. Help with development or give productive feedback on the issue tracker. Productive feedback on the iD issue tracker follows a similar trajectory to that on the talk list. It's not really working there either. There seem to be fairly deep seated differences in the philosophy of on-boarding new mappers, and those reflect themselves in iD's user interface. Since iD was awarded prime spot on osm, and since it's development is tightly held, everyone else is left with no outlet other than to complain. OSM is a very open project in general, but iD's development is very tightly held and opinionated. FUD around editors has been discussed to death and it's clear that writing more emails won't do anything. Fear uncertainty and doubt implies the criticism is invalid. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] this has to stop: iD user mistakes all over the place
Unfortunately, experience suggests that there's relatively little that a discussion on on the talk mailing list is going to be able to do here. This. Help with development or give productive feedback on the issue tracker. FUD around editors has been discussed to death and it's clear that writing more emails won't do anything. On Wed, Feb 11, 2015 at 11:13 AM, Bryce Nesbitt bry...@obviously.com wrote: I agree 100% that iD is making editing mistakes easier, out of proportion to the degree to which it makes editing by new users easier. The delete user interface is particularly fragile, encouraging the most pernicious form of damage: silent deletes. That goes for both the main map, and associated relations. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] this has to stop: iD user mistakes all over the place
That ticket doesn't have a difference of opinion: it has a core developer of iD offering to buy a cake for whoever contributes a fix. Nobody has contributed a fix: one would be accepted if it was contributed. Plus, we'd give that person a cake. That isn't a difference of opinion: there's no opposition. There's encouragement and an offer of reward for help. There's limited time the core developers have to work on iD, and they accept snark and hatred when they do. So no, that isn't a difference of opinion. It's a place where we need help and aren't getting it. Threads like this don't help. On Wed, Feb 11, 2015 at 12:45 PM, Michael Reichert naka...@gmx.net wrote: Hi, Am 2015-02-11 um 17:25 schrieb Tom MacWright: Unfortunately, experience suggests that there's relatively little that a discussion on on the talk mailing list is going to be able to do here. This. Help with development or give productive feedback on the issue tracker. FUD around editors has been discussed to death and it's clear that writing more emails won't do anything. The relation issue has been reported almost two years ago. https://github.com/openstreetmap/iD/issues/1461 This fact makes me to suggest everyone, every newbie, not to use iD. https://lists.openstreetmap.de/pipermail/stuttgart/2015-February/000526.html (in German) From my point of view, there is huge difference in opinion between iD developers and the mappers who clean up after an iD mapper has damaged something. There are some cases where the Don't confuse the user by popup warnings (it seems that this is the development goal of iD) does not work. Relations are an example. https://github.com/openstreetmap/iD/blob/master/README.md says: It lets you do the most basic tasks while not breaking other people's data. I can just laugh out loudly. Best regards Michael ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] this has to stop: iD user mistakes all over the place
There's no magic to working on iD: 77 people of varying skill levels have done it. It takes time. If this is important to you, I'd suggest you invest that time rather than ordering other people to. On Wed, Feb 11, 2015 at 2:53 PM, Bryce Nesbitt bry...@obviously.com wrote: On Wed, Feb 11, 2015 at 9:59 AM, Tom MacWright t...@macwright.org wrote: That ticket doesn't have a difference of opinion: it has a core developer of iD offering to buy a cake for whoever contributes a fix. Nobody has contributed a fix: one would be accepted if it was contributed. Plus, we'd give that person a cake. There are certain tasks where challenging people to supply a patch is almost like saying no softly. This one feels like a core developer task, not a good candidate for a first timer patch yummy cake not withstanding. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] this has to stop: iD user mistakes all over the place
Ever since 2012, in the second commit ever, Not breaking other people's data has been one of the three clearly stated public design goals of iD. https://github.com/openstreetmap/iD/commit/22fab3eb1d259fe73d3e1498df1ca0e07c613f87 On Wed, Feb 11, 2015 at 4:00 PM, Jo winfi...@gmail.com wrote: We have been saying this from the very beginning, so it should have been taken into account right from the very start of development of iD. Don't break other contributor's data should have been among the initial design goals. Don't bother the user with dialogs when they're about to break something should not be a design goal at all. Odd that such an important item would have to be added in retrospect. Worse, it's absurd. Polyglot 2015-02-11 21:15 GMT+01:00 Mike N nice...@att.net: On 2/11/2015 2:49 PM, Bryce Nesbitt wrote: Read through the issue tracker: It's clear that issues reported are pushed back on by the core iD developers. It's very tightly held. I disagree (not a developer here). The interesting thing that came out of this discussion is the realization that none of the key problems that people are seeing have an outstanding pull request. If the pull request is rejected, then you have a point. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] this has to stop: iD user mistakes all over the place
We also aimed to have no bugs and like every software project before us, have failed to achieve that goal. The uproar about iD is the same as the uproar about the map style, website, user groups, code of conduct, Steve Coast, the board, imports, license change, attribution, and practically everything else about OpenStreetMap. It's not anti-iD bias, of course. It's anti-everything bias. On Wed, Feb 11, 2015 at 6:33 PM, Bryce Nesbitt bry...@obviously.com wrote: On Wed, Feb 11, 2015 at 1:08 PM, Tom MacWright t...@macwright.org wrote: Ever since 2012, in the second commit ever, Not breaking other people's data has been one of the three clearly stated public design goals of iD. This goal does not appear to have been carried out. The iD project comes off as tone deaf to breaking data concerns: Look at the uproar over issues of breaking data. Look at the core team response, which is mostly defensive posturing, not oriented to solutions. Why has iD taken such a beating on the mailing list breaking data issues? I don't think it's just anti-iD bias. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Postponing elections, or other alternatives (Was: Modus operandi of the board)
I'm an OSMF member, and I'm in favor of a reboot that would establish a completely new board. I think that the existing board is individually capable but as a group will never get along. On Tue, Oct 28, 2014 at 8:21 AM, Simon Poole si...@poole.ch wrote: Particularly because the far more efficient is clearly false (for one compare number of fundamental reforms at all level of government that stick in Switzerland vs. other countries, particularly those with two-party systems). The Swiss system is fairly fine-tuned though and lots of things work smoothly because the direct democratic system exists, not because it is invoked. But this is really really off topic Simon PS: one thing that confuses non-residents a lot is that for example tax increases in general (gross simplification naturally) are accepted in popular votes here. PPS: mandatory cultural dissonance pointer: Switzerland doesn't even have a head of state in any conventional sense of the word and still is by many metrics one of the most successful countries in the World. Invoking the image that things can't work without a leader telling people what to do, tends to get us rolling on the floor with laughter. And that even without going as far as collecting Godwin points. Am 28.10.2014 12:51, schrieb Pieren: On Fri, Oct 24, 2014 at 5:56 PM, Kathleen Danielson kathleen.daniel...@gmail.com wrote: Direct democracy is cumbersome and often lacks nuance, which is why it's so infrequently used. Representative democracies and their ilk are far more common simply because they are far more efficient. Ouch. Never say that to our swiss friends ;-) Pieren ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] GoPro video traces?
Panoramio didn't state any open license for uploaded content, so it was easy for them to go closed with Google. Mapillary does, so it should be as safe as contributing data to OSM, in terms of what happens if it all goes away or becomes evil. I'm sure that everyone would be very supportive of a not-for-profit alternative, but given the reality of how expensive it is to run and continuously develop services that intake and distribute a lot of data, you'd probably need to get a sizeable grant, which would then be time-limited so would have to pursue another grant every year or two. Or you would have to take another route that would ruin the idea of open community purity, like advertising. On Thu, Oct 23, 2014 at 10:48 AM, Mike Thompson miketh...@gmail.com wrote: Does anyone know if the video plugin for JOSM works under Windows? I tried it about a year ago and couldn't get it to work. If it is not working, is anyone working on a fix or another video plugin? Mike On Thu, Oct 23, 2014 at 5:53 AM, Jóhannes Birgir Jensson j...@betra.is wrote: Well all the images are under CC-BY-SA license http://www.mapillary.com/legal.html I don't see anyone at the moment making another non-profit solution that gives an instant benefit to OSM (via iD editor). Storage space and bandwidth are never free while volunteer time is, wether it is programming or contributing material, so until then anyone offering a similar service will require income to pay for it. Mapillary is the best answer to your question at this point in time. That is all I can say. Þann 23.10.2014 11:33, skrifaði David Cuenca: The business activity of the for-profit company Mapillary is not new. Before it was acquired by Google, Panoramio did the same: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panoramio I don't see any point in working for free for a private company so they can sell their services to third parties. I was asking here to see if there is a not-for profit way of reaching the same goal. Thanks for your support, Micru On Thu, Oct 23, 2014 at 1:03 PM, Janko Mihelić jan...@gmail.com wrote: There is a blog entry about uploading GoPro photos to Mapillary: http://blog.mapillary.com/technology/2014/07/21/upload-scripts.html Janko ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk -- Etiamsi omnes, ego non ___ talk mailing listtalk@openstreetmap.orghttps://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Wikipedia article
I wrote an article somewhat in the same vein: http://macwright.org/2013/10/15/point-and-shoot.html Perhaps something to note is that, beyond technical and policy issues, one of the more common complaints about Wikipedia is that there's an unfriendly, elitist attitude amongst the established editors. My article asks for some relatively deep changes to infrastructure and user experience, but the more actionable and immediately useful thing that everyone can do is to be friendly. On Fri, Oct 25, 2013 at 5:06 PM, Jason Remillard remillard.ja...@gmail.comwrote: Hi, The MIT technology review just published this article on Wikipedia. http://www.technologyreview.com/featuredstory/520446/the-decline-of-wikipedia/ It is sport criticizing Wikipedia, but two things stuck out. Wikipedia is trying to get more editors. However, they seem to have some additional problems that OSM does not have. Wikipedia failed to roll out the new GUI article editor. If you read the discussion on hacker news, and Slashdot. http://news.slashdot.org/story/13/10/23/1643228/wikipedias-participation-problem https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6612638 It seems like Wikipedia has revert first policy on questionable edits. It makes it unpleasant to start with the project, since probably every bodies first edits are questionable. OSM policy/culture of discussing a change *before* reverting is really good thing. Jason ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Editor problems ...
The fact that the default has now changed has not been publicly announced yet! No. http://blog.openstreetmap.org/2013/08/23/id-in-browser-editor-now-default-on-openstreetmap/ On Fri, Aug 23, 2013 at 4:27 PM, Lester Caine les...@lsces.co.uk wrote: Tom Hughes wrote: On 23/08/13 20:57, Lester Caine wrote: Potlatch 2 WAS selected as the personal default yesterday as opposed to the the 'default P2' which has now changed to 'default id' and to which my account had been switched today! Our personal choices should not have been changed when the 'default' was changed? Unless you have changed it your personal default, like everybody's personal default, was set to default which means whatever is the global default. A personal default can either be a specific editor, or it can be use whatever is the global default and the last is what new users are set to. I specifically changed it to the correct setting yesterday away from 'default', noting that 'default' was still P2 ... Obviously edit went to P2 anyway, but I am happy that I had changed and save the change. The fact that the default has now changed has not been publicly announced yet! And I would like an explanation as to the corrupted data id has stored today! -- Lester Caine - G8HFL - Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=**contacthttp://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/ Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk Rainbow Digital Media - http://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.**ukhttp://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk __**_ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.**org/listinfo/talkhttp://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Making iD the default editor on osm.org
iD has a wonderful 'tutorial mode', as well as documentation that explains, in detail, how to add POIs and do other actions. Given that iD is not Potlatch, the ways you do these things is not the same as Potlatch, but new users will not have used Potlatch and will use the tutorial to learn the editor, rather than assuming that it does the same thing as Potlatch. And, please, no more all-capitals and !s. I know it's the way you prefer to communicate, but here on talk@ it's already terribly difficult to figure out who's angry (everyone?) and what's yelling and what's normal discussion, so it would be wonderful if you could try to adapt to a less flashy style. On Tue, Aug 20, 2013 at 6:42 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: Il giorno 19/ago/2013, alle ore 23:44, John Firebaugh john.fireba...@gmail.com ha scritto: Well, we could try sending them polite emails, welcoming them to the community, expressing appreciations for their contributions, and constructively suggesting how to improve their future edits. personally I do this, and usually I also recommend they use Josm for their edits ;-) I'd love to recommend iD in the future, but currently despite some visual and practical points on the pro iD side we are not yet there (IMHO) cheers, Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Making iD the default editor on osm.org
In this case and others, we should keep in mind whether P2 or JOSM have safer or smarter behavior. Would they 'notice' that this new road segment has meaning? Put another way: iD will never prevent all mistakes, but does it prevent less than P2 and co? (in this case, I think the answer is no) On Tue, Aug 20, 2013 at 4:53 PM, Bryce Nesbitt bry...@obviously.com wrote: On Mon, Aug 19, 2013 at 12:07 PM, Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.orgwrote: It has been claimed often that iD damages relations. Can we somehow substantiate that claim? Could anyone provide a detailed description of a non-esoteric use case that involves * a kind (and structure) of relation that is very common and thus likely to be encountered by a new contributor; * a simple-looking edit that is likely to be made by a new contributor and that results in a broken relation in iD? In what way will the relation be broken, and what indication (if any) does iD display about the problem? This is a honest question because I haven't researched the claims in depth ... Here's a way I once damaged a relation, and could do it again with iD: There was a section of messed up road. In order to keep the context on screen, I drew the correct road, tagged it as a road, then deleted the squiggle. iD could improve on this by noting I've drawn a line between two ways within the same relation, and asking me what I meant. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Making iD the default editor on osm.org
Given that we're in the process of launching iD, we need to set some basic guidelines so that this conversation actually results in launching iD rather than continues to blue-sky and OT. Thus, for something like 'is iD dangerous to use', it cannot be a question of 'what's the most wonderful way that iD could be safe' since that is infinite, but it should be 'is iD as safe as existing options', because that is finite, and we have finite time. I, like you, love to dream big. That's what the next version is for. On Tue, Aug 20, 2013 at 7:05 PM, Bryce Nesbitt bry...@obviously.com wrote: On Tue, Aug 20, 2013 at 2:10 PM, Tom MacWright t...@macwright.org wrote: In this case and others, we should keep in mind whether P2 or JOSM have safer or smarter behavior. Would they 'notice' that this new road segment has meaning? Put another way: iD will never prevent all mistakes, but does it prevent less than P2 and co? (in this case, I think the answer is no) It is clear that the project team's sights are set far higher than replicating P2. iD raises the bar, as should any project that wholesale replaces another. Instead the question should be what achievable workflows have a shot at helping starting mappers turn into quality repeat mappers? In regards to mistakes: I think it clear that iD makes delete more prominent and easy to hit than P2, and misses opportunities to have better delete workflows. Particularly on POIs the single lone trash can could be confused with another feature, and it is on top of features one might want to inspect. P2's delete key binding was broader than needed for efficient editing, and iD carried it over equally. Relations are opaque in JOSM and P2: iD has the opportunity to raise the bar and take the mystery out of relations. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Making iD the default editor on osm.org
Hi, Please, do not offer a delete function that prominent ! This has come up before. Where should this action button move? Or should there be an alert message? How to resolve this with pro users who get angry with how hidden or alert-messaged the functionality is? Would welcome feedback here beyond the simple negative. For what it's worth, the Delete key which is mapped in JOSM and P2 as well, is also pretty easy to hit, and the trash icon in JOSM is even larger than the trash in iD, just positioned differently. Forward/backward/left/right are established prefixes, values and roles and I expect developers to know about it, especially if the software is quite new. Please search for, link to, or comment on an issue. Here it is: https://github.com/systemed/iD/issues/299 We cannot rehash and respond to all issues in iD, without context, on every thread that relates to it. Please search and use the issue tracker for bugs, as you would do with any other open source project. Tom On Sat, Aug 17, 2013 at 9:07 AM, colliar colliar4e...@aol.com wrote: On 16.08.2013 15:39, Tom MacWright wrote: Hi all, Now as ever is a good time to post bug reports and suggestions to the issue tracker, where developers can see, act, and respond to them: https://github.com/systemed/iD/issues Another website with another login and no option for anonymous reports. Why is it not using trac.osm.org or at least some OSM domain ? Sorry, I usually do not use ID but I do reporting JOSM bugs. The two issues where mentioned the last time we were talking about ID on this list and if people are either developing or testing they should have noticed already. If you have any question as far as 'what is in the latest version of iD' or 'is X fixed or not', you can as always, use the testing instance that has the absolute latest code to find out yourself: http://openstreetmap.us/iD/master/#background=Bingmap=20.00/-77.02271/38.90085 This instance is really slow with iceweasel ! The two issues are not fixed ! Why didn't you mention this ? Forward/backward/left/right are established prefixes, values and roles and I expect developers to know about it, especially if the software is quite new. Also, as always, it's a great time to be objective and constructive in your criticism. Please, do not offer a delete function that prominent ! Please, fully support forward/backward/left/right as part of the key and value, and appropriate adjust them when changing direction of a way and combining ways. Forward/backward as roles need to be adjusted, as well, with these two actions. As long as this is not fixed, deny to combine or change directions on any way. Thanks a lot ! Cheers colliar ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Making iD the default editor on osm.org
Hi, Why do we set a default editor right from the beginning and do not let the user decide ? That's a question for another thread, but the answer is likely to be 'reasonable defaults'. Tom On Sat, Aug 17, 2013 at 10:34 AM, colliar colliar4e...@aol.com wrote: Hey, Why do we set a default editor right from the beginning and do not let the user decide ? I think it depends on the individual which editor fits to whom. I met several people who know how to work with GUIs but are not familiar with OSM. All had no problem getting along with JOSM right away and some where looking for features like filter, purge, export to file/gpx and printing. The international student projects on several highschool across Europe did only use JOSM and it work, too. A short description of iD, Potlatch2, JOSM and Merkaartor with links would be nice. Cheers Colliar On 16.08.2013 08:59, Frederik Ramm wrote: Hi, it has been proposed to make the newly released iD v1.1 the default editor on openstreetmap.org, meaning that if someone doesn't explicitly chose an editor they will open iD instead of Potlatch. Refer to the previous thread In the works: iD 1.1 for details on that release. The relevant GitHub pull request is here: https://github.com/openstreetmap/openstreetmap-website/pull/453 It is likely that this pull request will be merged (i.e. accepted and incorporated into the OSM web site) in the near future unless there are important reasons not to. Bye Frederik ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Making iD the default editor on osm.org
iD has always had a clear message to this direction every time any user saves: The changes you upload as tmcw http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/tmcw will be visible on all maps that use OpenStreetMap data. https://cloudup.com/ckQTglHaKYJ On Sat, Aug 17, 2013 at 3:37 PM, Pieren pier...@gmail.com wrote: On Sat, Aug 17, 2013 at 3:45 PM, Martin Raifer tyr@gmail.com wrote: What about requiring double clicks on the delete icon I would prefere a popup window coming only the first time someone use it, saying be carefull, you will really delete something in the real database if you save your work or something like that. Pieren ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Making iD the default editor on osm.org
Please, as I mentioned before: you can just use iD and see for yourself. There's no point in guessing what's in the box when you can just scoot over to http://openstreetmap.us/iD/master/#background=Bingmap=20.00/-77.02271/38.90085 And see for yourself. That is to say, we already have a listing of created/deleted/modified objects, as well as warnings when, for instance, users delete a lot of things. One could find this out by going to the URL above and seeing for oneself. https://cloudup.com/cCy2e6ruPBY On Sat, Aug 17, 2013 at 4:11 PM, Christian Quest cqu...@openstreetmap.frwrote: Maybe a short summary like: you have added xxx objects, modified yyy object and deleted zzz objects would help in this dialog ? 2013/8/17 Tom MacWright t...@macwright.org iD has always had a clear message to this direction every time any user saves: The changes you upload as tmcwhttp://www.openstreetmap.org/user/tmcw will be visible on all maps that use OpenStreetMap data. https://cloudup.com/ckQTglHaKYJ On Sat, Aug 17, 2013 at 3:37 PM, Pieren pier...@gmail.com wrote: On Sat, Aug 17, 2013 at 3:45 PM, Martin Raifer tyr@gmail.com wrote: What about requiring double clicks on the delete icon I would prefere a popup window coming only the first time someone use it, saying be carefull, you will really delete something in the real database if you save your work or something like that. Pieren ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk -- Christian Quest - OpenStreetMap France Un nouveau serveur pour OSM... http://donate.osm.org/server2013/ ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Making iD the default editor on osm.org
And most of newcomers do small changes for a try. If we're going to continue to assume that newcomers are dumb and destructive, disabling new user signups would do the trick better than subtly judging them and handicapping applications that empower them. But I was extremetely surprise to see twitter and facebook after the save action. Moving on to more issues, I guess? Anyway, like everything else you've brought up, you could have and should have searched the issue tracker, and you would have found: * https://github.com/systemed/iD/issues/1687 * https://github.com/systemed/iD/issues/1452 * https://github.com/systemed/iD/issues/1571 * https://github.com/systemed/iD/issues/1038 On Sat, Aug 17, 2013 at 5:27 PM, Pieren pier...@gmail.com wrote: On Sat, Aug 17, 2013 at 10:24 PM, Tom MacWright t...@macwright.org wrote: And see for yourself. Ok. No special warning if you delete one element. And most of newcomers do small changes for a try. But I was extremetely surprise to see twitter and facebook after the save action. Is OSM still an open data project mainly driven by open source applications ? Are we really moving to the commercial side of the internet ? I have no words to express my shock (I have but it would censored). Please, move that away from the main site. Keep it on your local deployment in osm.us if you like. Pieren ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Making iD the default editor on osm.org
Hi all, Now as ever is a good time to post bug reports and suggestions to the issue tracker, where developers can see, act, and respond to them: https://github.com/systemed/iD/issues If you have any question as far as 'what is in the latest version of iD' or 'is X fixed or not', you can as always, use the testing instance that has the absolute latest code to find out yourself: http://openstreetmap.us/iD/master/#background=Bingmap=20.00/-77.02271/38.90085 Also, as always, it's a great time to be objective and constructive in your criticism. Thanks, and have a wonderful morning, Tom On Fri, Aug 16, 2013 at 9:04 AM, colliar colliar4e...@aol.com wrote: On 16.08.2013 08:59, Frederik Ramm wrote: As long as the delete function is that prominent it is not an editor for newcomers. Please, do make it easier to use existing objects and do not lead the user to delete and then create a new object. How about the full support to preserve forward/backward/left/right for all keys and values and as role when changing directions and combining ways ? cu colliar it has been proposed to make the newly released iD v1.1 the default editor on openstreetmap.org, meaning that if someone doesn't explicitly chose an editor they will open iD instead of Potlatch. Refer to the previous thread In the works: iD 1.1 for details on that release. The relevant GitHub pull request is here: https://github.com/openstreetmap/openstreetmap-website/pull/453 It is likely that this pull request will be merged (i.e. accepted and incorporated into the OSM web site) in the near future unless there are important reasons not to. Bye Frederik ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Making iD the default editor on osm.org
Hi Lester, As before, please refrain from using all caps and editorializing. You can simply write As long as there is also a clear set of notes explaining how to retain P2, that sounds great! And we'll get the message just as well. Thanks, Tom On Fri, Aug 16, 2013 at 9:46 AM, les...@lsces.co.uk wrote: As long as there is also a CLEAR set of notes explaining how to retain P2 for those of us who don't have time to learn yet another interface ... Sent from my android device. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] comments on new map widget on main page
Since we perform no systematic user testing in advance of these changes ( http://teczno.com/s/92x), we're not really sure what a pro user is. Given that this is a continual point for years, I would implore someone who has the resources to just do it, so we can stop using it as an immovable point of argument. Tom On Mon, Jul 29, 2013 at 4:34 AM, Lester Caine les...@lsces.co.uk wrote: Greg Troxel wrote: add some indication of zoom level. I'd be happy with a z15 box between + and -. I'm coming to the same conclusion ... need SOMETHING rather than having to decode other information. Since there is now a tab for the links, perhaps that could also be used to add the location information as well. It's now even more difficult to quickly zoom out to find out where in the world a link has dropped you ... Even just a country would be very helpful. The other annoying thing is this incessant drive to make everything 'monochrome' ... I've just had to create 'colourstrap' to get full colour icons back on a project that has decided that 'bootstrap' is the bees knees. Those black icons do grate next to a nice full colour map :( -- Lester Caine - G8HFL - Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=**contacthttp://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/ Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk Rainbow Digital Media - http://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.**ukhttp://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk __**_ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.**org/listinfo/talkhttp://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
[OSM-talk] Working toward a vision for OSM
Hey all, John Firebaugh just wrote up a post that's useful in light of the conversations we've been having about changes to OSM and how they're organized: http://www.mapbox.com/osmdev/2013/07/19/implementing-osm-vision/ Hopefully this story from the video to wireframes, to thought, and finally to the actual code and pull requests we're working on, will help to clarify what we[1]'re interested in working on and why. Tom [1]: we = John, Saman, Alex, myself ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Double-clicking on OSM map does not centre the map
If anyone wants to do the work, head over to the Leaflet GitHub https://github.com/leaflet/leaflet and go for it. I'm imagining it'll be a hard sell to the maintainers, because it would make Leaflet's behavior different than the vast majority of maps on the internet, not to mention all other open source map frameworks. On Mon, Jul 22, 2013 at 8:25 AM, Pierre Béland pierz...@yahoo.fr wrote: Peter, This double click was an easy way to obtain the coordinates of an object and share the information with the others using the permalink. This functionnality does not exist anymore. For example, If I search Tower of London with Nominatim, the map is centered on the tower and the share link I obtain gives me the coordinates of the tower http://mapui.apis.dev.openstreetmap.org/?lat=51.50811lon=-0.07627zoom=17layers=Mmlat=51.50811mlon=-0.07627 If I now center the map on an other point and add a Marker over the Tower, I do not obtain the coordinates of the tower. What I can share is a map where a marker is over the tower. And I am loosing the possibility to share information about the tower coordinates. http://mapui.apis.dev.openstreetmap.org/?lat=51.50745lon=-0.0729zoom=16layers=Mmlat=51.5079mlon=-0.07673 Pierre -- *De :* Peter Wendorff wendo...@uni-paderborn.de *À :* talk@openstreetmap.org *Envoyé le :* Lundi 22 juillet 2013 5h10 *Objet :* Re: [OSM-talk] Double-clicking on OSM map does not centre the map Am 22.07.2013 07:48, schrieb Maarten Deen: http://mapui.apis.dev.openstreetmap.org/ [3] It is nice to give a link to the development map (at least I assume it is), but how do you set that marker? Regards, Maarten Don't use URL-Fiddling any more (if that's what you tried), but: - open the share box - select Include Marker (the marker is visible now in the current center of the map view) - drag the marker to where you want to have it, independent of dragging the map itself. I think - once one found out about the right Button (share) that's really an improvement and at least as easy as fiddling around the URL as it was before. regards Peter ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] New technology ...
I don't have to live with someone else's preferences. On the internet, you have been. For years now, every single day. Everybody is off making a better 'widget' for their pet project and nobody is looking at the problem as a whole? You mean in OSM? Look at how much push-back we get on something like Map-UI - tens of angry comments about how X changed. Now imagine a much larger redesign. On Mon, Jul 22, 2013 at 4:03 AM, Lester Caine les...@lsces.co.uk wrote: Kai Krueger wrote: I am not a fan of just changing things to make them prettier without adding functionality, or even less of the website hasn't changed in X years, we need to change things to make it modern either, but having multiple versions beyond what we already have is just likely not really feasible at the moment. There are imho more important things to fix or optimize. I think that this is perhaps the crux of the problem. One gets very used to doing things a certain way, and when they change it gets very annoying when something does not now work. I can give a good example in Linux ... the way the scroll bars work on the side of a window has been changed by ONE of the style library teams. A little like double click no longer doing what you expect! Clicking on the scroll bar now works differently FOR SOME APPS. Fortunately it is possible to switch the new functionality off but why the was it allowed to be switched on by default in the first place :( Another area of the the same scroll bar is the stepper buttons top and bottom. Some people think they are pointless, but when one is working with directories with thousands of files in, being able to shuffle a little bit fixes a problem. Again, I can select a theme from users with a like preference and the buttons appear. I don't have to live with someone else's preferences. Changing functionality, such as how double click works, needs to have a very good reason for doing it, but where buttons appear and what buttons appear is just a matter of personal taste! Currently on touch screen devices there is a conflict between using touch to zoom the map, and using touch to expand the function areas, or expand the note box to because it's too small. THIS functionality may be part of leaflet, so that is the development team we need to be interacting with, or maintain a port of that code which we can tailor to our requirements. I personally have no interest in 'rails', I work exclusively in PHP on production sites, so I don't want my hands tied because 'rails' has changed the way something works. Just while I've been typing this it has come to mind that perhaps what I personally am looking for is a better organised cooperation between the teams that are building the tools we use rather than what appears on a single view of the data? Leaflet is supposed to be a 'library of mobile-friendly interactive maps', but it's that which is causing my problems with osrm, yours and the other options I'm playing with. I was probably missing the point that it actually has nothing to do 'rails-dev' ... Everybody is off making a better 'widget' for their pet project and nobody is looking at the problem as a whole? -- Lester Caine - G8HFL - Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=**contacthttp://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/ Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk Rainbow Digital Media - http://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.**ukhttp://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk __**_ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.**org/listinfo/talkhttp://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] New technology ...
was that really so much? In my perception it was very few (if any, less than 3) who were generally against it, the rest were kind of bug reports, unfortunately not always setting the right tone. 52 messages in the 'Upgraded map controls' thread, 13 in this one, 12 in the one split off of this one, 39 comments on the pull request. Around 116 messages in total, though that's only the English count and I'm sure that there's something on talk-de. On Mon, Jul 22, 2013 at 9:29 AM, Lester Caine les...@lsces.co.uk wrote: Tom MacWright wrote: I don't have to live with someone else's preferences. On the internet, you have been. For years now, every single day. No - If I don't like something I don't use it ... that includes Google! Everybody is off making a better 'widget' for their pet project and nobody is looking at the problem as a whole? You mean in OSM? Look at how much push-back we get on something like Map-UI - tens of angry comments about how X changed. Now imagine a much larger redesign. There has be complaints about not publishing things or it being discussed on other lists. In reality some of these changes should have been discussed on the leaflet list? It's their changes that are being pushed on us? So a proper debate on opening up the field to provide access to tools tailored for their target audience seems logical. The 'slippy map' is only addressing a small user area, and better publication of the alternatives would seem sensible. Perhaps we ACTUALLY need a map style selector on the front page rather than a single link to a particular map tool? -- Lester Caine - G8HFL - Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=**contacthttp://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/ Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk Rainbow Digital Media - http://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.**ukhttp://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk __**_ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.**org/listinfo/talkhttp://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] New technology ...
Hey Lester, I agree entirely - thus far we aren't focusing on the mobile version of the site. It's never been very polished, and recent changes aren't focused on improving it significantly. As far as why, it's pretty simple - changes to the site are extremely time-intensive because of its myriad uses and the necessity of having a community process. That is, we've needed to focus on specific parts of the site because, even if we agree that many things need to be done, we only have enough designers developers to implement one or two things a month. I think there are two solid ways forward here: First, which is admittedly less likely, is if anyone wants to adopt the task of maintaining, testing, and improving the mobile site, and pushing those changes through. Second, which is more doable but more likely to get over-communicated, is for someone to write a simple page pointing to good mobile options. For instance, users of GPS units should easily find out about Garmin extracts, smartphone users should easily find editors that work on their phone or apps that use OpenStreetMap data. Independent OSM-based tools do a better job at the very specific use-cases people have on mobile - whereas the website focuses strongly on one use case, editing, and has no smartphone-compatible editors. (To tackle the inevitable points of argument that follow that: yes, there are things that do this, but we need to do better. No, there's no committee to decide and yes the best way to do it is to do it, even if it's very low-tech.) Tom On Sun, Jul 21, 2013 at 11:26 AM, Lester Caine les...@lsces.co.uk wrote: With the arrival of a 'new' set of controls, and the discussion on front page, I feel that it IS necessary to open this discussion a little wider. Having been using the new interface on mobile devices I find it much less usable than the older set-up. But that is not to say that the old one was actually usable! There is a need for a different map interface that works better with mobile devices. Even the routing demos have mixed results on tablets and mobile phones. I've been working on my own 'front end' simply to provide one that I can tailor for the devices I am using. The old N900 used to work well, but the newer devices are difficult to use 'on the go'. As an example, the old TomTom sat nav was easy to use while driving, but the current replacements I've tried to use with the Galaxy4 can be dangerous at times as they wander off doing their own thing, and you have to stop to get back to a state where you can continue following the route. It's obvious that the new map interface is not designed for mobile devices, so where should we discuss that development and how it would fit in with an improved front end. It's not just a matter of directing to 'a map' but more important is directing to safe options for those of us who ARE using the tools every day. The current options are both difficult to find, and have clear information on how safe they are when using them live! Disclaimers of accepting no responsibility may cover any legal liability, but essentially say 'here is a tool - but you should never use it!' And discussion on a more open platform would also be appreciated rather than on development platforms that we do not subscribe to because we use different development tools! -- Lester Caine - G8HFL - Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=**contacthttp://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/ Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk Rainbow Digital Media - http://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.**ukhttp://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk __**_ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.**org/listinfo/talkhttp://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] New technology ...
Hi Lester, The most productive way to lead to better routing on OSM is to find 'bad' routes, generate permalinks on OSRM or your favorite tool, and post bug reports, including what the desired route would be and what's incorrect about the incorrect route. For OSRM in particular the bug tracker is here: https://github.com/DennisOSRM/Project-OSRM/issues and you can click 'Generate Link' on the testing instance: http://map.project-osrm.org/ in order to send a specific route around. Tom On Sun, Jul 21, 2013 at 12:02 PM, Lester Caine les...@lsces.co.uk wrote: Tom MacWright wrote: Hey Lester, I agree entirely - thus far we aren't focusing on the mobile version of the site. It's never been very polished, and recent changes aren't focused on improving it significantly. As far as why, it's pretty simple - changes to the site are extremely time-intensive because of its myriad uses and the necessity of having a community process. That is, we've needed to focus on specific parts of the site because, even if we agree that many things need to be done, we only have enough designers developers to implement one or two things a month. And some of us are hampered by the choose of tools that was made previously! I think there are two solid ways forward here: First, which is admittedly less likely, is if anyone wants to adopt the task of maintaining, testing, and improving the mobile site, and pushing those changes through. There are a few options as a good starting point, but your 'third' point is probably accurate here. Second, which is more doable but more likely to get over-communicated, is for someone to write a simple page pointing to good mobile options. For instance, users of GPS units should easily find out about Garmin extracts, smartphone users should easily find editors that work on their phone or apps that use OpenStreetMap data. http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/**Mobile+Computinghttp://lsces.co.uk/wiki/Mobile+Computing:) But I'm getting bogged down by what does not work in each of the options and I don't have time to try the options that are missing. I need to switch from Locus to one of the other options just to establish where the identified safety issues actually arise from! If you can't trust a configuration then it's unusable, and that is part of the current problem. Independent OSM-based tools do a better job at the very specific use-cases people have on mobile - whereas the website focuses strongly on one use case, editing, and has no smartphone-compatible editors. Adding data via the tablet is easier than actually using it on the tablet ... (To tackle the inevitable points of argument that follow that: yes, there are things that do this, but we need to do better. No, there's no committee to decide and yes the best way to do it is to do it, even if it's very low-tech.) We need well documented user reports on the available tools rather than just 'choose the option that works for you' ... I have yet to find a routing package that gives SAFE directions on UK motorways! This was the whole reason for my closer investigation. Tom On Sun, Jul 21, 2013 at 11:26 AM, Lester Caine les...@lsces.co.uk mailto:les...@lsces.co.uk wrote: With the arrival of a 'new' set of controls, and the discussion on front page, I feel that it IS necessary to open this discussion a little wider. Having been using the new interface on mobile devices I find it much less usable than the older set-up. But that is not to say that the old one was actually usable! There is a need for a different map interface that works better with mobile devices. Even the routing demos have mixed results on tablets and mobile phones. I've been working on my own 'front end' simply to provide one that I can tailor for the devices I am using. The old N900 used to work well, but the newer devices are difficult to use 'on the go'. As an example, the old TomTom sat nav was easy to use while driving, but the current replacements I've tried to use with the Galaxy4 can be dangerous at times as they wander off doing their own thing, and you have to stop to get back to a state where you can continue following the route. It's obvious that the new map interface is not designed for mobile devices, so where should we discuss that development and how it would fit in with an improved front end. It's not just a matter of directing to 'a map' but more important is directing to safe options for those of us who ARE using the tools every day. The current options are both difficult to find, and have clear information on how safe they are when using them live! Disclaimers of accepting no responsibility may cover any legal liability, but essentially say 'here is a tool - but you should never use it!' And discussion on a more open platform would also be appreciated rather than
Re: [OSM-talk] Upgraded map controls
Hey, Let's also not lose the fact that this thread started with 'Should we remove the +/- buttons' and has visited about 10 topics in 37 emails since then. Maybe it's time to start fresh with a focused thread. Tom On Sun, Jul 21, 2013 at 2:18 PM, Michal Migurski m...@teczno.com wrote: On Jul 21, 2013, at 5:42 AM, Pieren wrote: On Sun, Jul 21, 2013 at 12:55 AM, Dave F. dave...@madasafish.com wrote: On 20/07/2013 12:57, Paul Norman wrote: Rails port pull requests?!?! wtf. : I really think some developers are living in their own world. lol. They do ! If you missed the discussion because you don't watch the non-localized 35 mailing lists, 5 irc channels, 13 forums, 8 foundation working groups reports, all pull requests discussions in github/osm and the videos of the last SOTM, it's really your fault :-) Supporting official venues for orderly change is what the board should be doing, but is not. I would support the creation and use of a proposal/vote/implementation process for the community, even if the first proposal is just be it resolved that Mapbox accepts responsibility for the visual design of OSM.org. The new icons and map controls are good and I'm getting accustomed to them, but the process by which they made it onto the site worries me. Mostly, it's because Saman opened his SotM-US talk with a blow it all up slide and finished with gamification that I'm uneasy with how we're treating the visual presentation of OSM.org. Gamification is a sad, sorry sideshow and we shouldn't do it; it only became a meme because Zynga made a zillion dollars and look how that turned out. Do we plan to follow through on gamifying the OSM UI as Saman suggested in his talk? I don't know, and I don't want to have to subscribe to Github pull requests to find out. Let's not lose sight of the fact that OSM.org has mapped the world in a decade. -mike. michal migurski- contact info and pgp key: sf/cahttp://mike.teczno.com/contact.html ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] New technology ...
For what it's worth, for those who want to use the Notes facility of OSM remotely, I've worked on a predictably open source https://github.com/osmlab/osm-note boringly named project called OSM Note, that you can open on your phone like so http://osmlab.github.io/osm-note/and place notes, log in, and so on. On Sun, Jul 21, 2013 at 3:55 PM, Kai Krueger kakrue...@gmail.com wrote: lsces wrote With the arrival of a 'new' set of controls, and the discussion on front page, I feel that it IS necessary to open this discussion a little wider. Having been using the new interface on mobile devices I find it much less usable than the older set-up. But that is not to say that the old one was actually usable! As always this is somewhat subjective. Whereas on the desktop, I don't yet see much of an advantage* other than that it is prettier, I think it has somewhat improved the usage on a mobile phone. The larger + - buttons make them more touch friendly (pinch to zoom is very erratic and often doesn't work at all for me) and the new geolocation functionality is a pretty neat feature particularly for mobile use! The notes functionality, which can be useful on a mobile, could probably do with some improvements (the bubbles are to big to fit on a 5 screen properly), but overall are usable. iD pretty much doesn't work at all on a phone, but then editing on a 4 touch screen or on a 24 monitor with mouse and keyboard really are two very different beasts and can't really be used in the same design. There you simply want separate special purpose apps like Vespucci. One question would therefore be, what functionality of osm.org would you hope to actually be able to use on a mobile phone? Browsing the map and adding / checking bugs seem like the most likely candidates. Imho, those work reasonably well with the new design and can probably be fixed up with some specific minor tweaks. For sat-navs and more sophisticated map applications there are a bunch of special purpose apps, some of which work quite well already. Kai * Once the improvements of the share menu go in, that should change and actually add real functionality to the map, which I am looking forward to. -- View this message in context: http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/New-technology-tp5770731p5770762.html Sent from the General Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Double-clicking on OSM map does not centre the map
The relevant change in Leaflet: https://github.com/Leaflet/Leaflet/pull/1582?source=cc - the new behavior matches all other map sites and frameworks I can think of, with the exception of Bing. You can replicate the old behavior by clicking the map and dragging it to change the center. There's no easy way to 'get the old behavior back' without doing a core patch to Leaflet, and given that this is the expected behavior with a clear 'other way to do it', I personally don't think it's a high priority to change. On Sun, Jul 21, 2013 at 11:26 PM, Clay Smalley claysmal...@gmail.comwrote: I've noticed the same issue. I liked having an easy way to center the map. Is anyone averse to having this changed back? On Jul 21, 2013 8:02 PM, Andrew Errington erringt...@gmail.com wrote: It used to be that if you double-clicked on the map it would re-centre on the clicked point and zoom in by one level. Now it doesn't. It zooms in, but doesn't re-centre the map. When did this behaviour change? Is it desirable? I don't like it because now I can't centre the map (by double-clicking) and make a markerlink (by editing the permalink lat/lon to mlat/mlon). Best wishes, Andrew ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Bringing new life to the OSM.org front page
Hi there, I am with OSM for 5 years and I do not fully know who is responsible for things, who has the final words on other things. I often see names reappear here and there, and over time I got some ideas but it would be really nice to just have an overview of the actual executive teams of those parts of OSM that not everyone can edit. There are no executive teams. This push was John, Saman, and myself. Nobody appointed us, we just did it. Tom Hughes (TomH) pushes the merge button and makes sure nothing blows up when he does, apart from the community. Previous changes have looked the same: a few people work on a patch, the community discusses it, and if there's some modicum of agreement it goes forward via the people-who-touch-the-server-directly, which in the case of the website, is TomH. Cheers, Tom, author of the presentation system that does the obnoxiously huge anti-readable text On Sat, Jul 20, 2013 at 5:42 PM, Johannes Kröger johannes.kroe...@hcu-hamburg.de wrote: Where would you stop if it was decided to post announcements to the community. http://blog.openstreetmap.org/ would be the perfect news channel. It allows passive and active participation without the need of registering or installing specific software. You can point anyone at it and they see a normal website. You can add it to your feed reader or bookmarks and follow anything important going on. It would just need to be linked to on the homepage. As a user it is impossible to follow all the channels. If you decide to follow everything you get overwhelmed by a lot of technical jargon you don't understand, noise that you as dumb user don't need to understand (bug reports/discussion for example) and lots of pointless bikeshedding. And if you were still receptive, then you might still not know what ends up being implemented. Asking not to flood developers with negative comments (or any kind really) is orthogonal with suggesting everyone to directly follow development on github and -dev mailinglists! I am with OSM for 5 years and I do not fully know who is responsible for things, who has the final words on other things. I often see names reappear here and there, and over time I got some ideas but it would be really nice to just have an overview of the actual executive teams of those parts of OSM that not everyone can edit. Apart from the missing zoom bar and the non-descript icons I really like the redesign so please don't get me wrong! But I have no idea where, when and by whom it was decided to build/use it. Granted, I have not watched the video from SOTMUS yet, maybe it is mentioned in it. Maybe I overread it in the slides (with their obnoxiously huge text, anti-readable on a monitor). Maybe it was suggested and planned a long time ago and I just forgot about it. The blog seems like the perfect place to be the main communication channel to the community for those in charge. Cheers, Hannes ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Upgraded map controls
Hi James, That issue has been reported and is being worked on: https://github.com/openstreetmap/openstreetmap-website/issues/356 On Sat, Jul 20, 2013 at 6:55 PM, Dave F. dave...@madasafish.com wrote: On 20/07/2013 12:57, Paul Norman wrote: Whoops - resending to the right talk@ list Which list? All rails port pull requests and issues automatically goes to the rails-dev@ list, which is the list for discussion of rails port (web site) development If you prefer a format other than email, I believe if you watch the repo (where the source is) though github you can get all the updates. Rails port pull requests?!?! wtf. How about posting it to a real world, end user forum that speaks in English? And also not to an instant chat one that only certain people, in certain time zones, can see. I really think some developers are living in their own world. Dave F. __**_ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.**org/listinfo/talkhttp://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Upgraded map controls
Hi Dave, Please be civil, we're all trying our best to be nice and make progress here. It's inappropriate to start ad-hominem attacking developers, especially in the case of Saman - who is in fact a designer, not to mention a real person, in the real world, with actual emotions. Thanks, Tom On Sat, Jul 20, 2013 at 8:18 PM, Dave F. dave...@madasafish.com wrote: On 20/07/2013 09:25, Richard Fairhurst wrote: James Mast wrote: I'm personally not liking that they now have hidden the long/short links to the map location behind buttons. Instead of just one click to get the map location, now it's two clicks and is really annoying and slowing down work for me. :( Ok, I've said this at least three times elsewhere, Why wasn't it mentioned in the link from the tweet? http://blog.openstreetmap.org/**2013/07/19/new-map-control/http://blog.openstreetmap.org/2013/07/19/new-map-control/ Actually why wasn't any of the instructions mentioned in the link? I see there's a video presentation, but really, at 26 minutes long, who has the time patience or bandwidth to wade through that? #real_world I've just listened to the first three minutes of it. A classic example of why programmers shouldn't present/explain/write help files for their own programs. Again #real_world. Dave F. __**_ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.**org/listinfo/talkhttp://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] TileMill performance
Hi Steve,
TileMill is not designed for that kind of application (running as a live
server with no cache), though it will work 'a bit'.
So: it doesn't do caching - you'll want a cache. Look at CloudFront,
nginx's cache, varnish, squid, and so on.
Tuning the database: check that you have all possible indexes installed and
the data is in EPSG:900913.
The long-term answer is switching to something designed to be a live-server
(mod_tile, TileStache) or rendering your tiles and serving them from
MBTiles (with TileStache or TileStream).
Tom
On Wed, Feb 27, 2013 at 6:03 AM, Steve Bennett stevag...@gmail.com wrote:
Hi,
(First - is this the right list to discuss using TileMill? I can
only find the MapBox support form, or gis.stackexchange.)
I'm having some problems with TileMill rendering very slowly.
Sometimes it seizes up altogether, until I restart it or reboot the
server. This seems to happen particularly when I frequently interrupt
rendering by saving the stylesheet again.
My setup is a 2-core, 8Gb Ubuntu VM running on an OpenStack cluster.
PostGIS (with Melbourne city data from bbbike.org), nginx for auth,
and one shapefile. Pretty vanilla.
I have a few questions about how to improve speed in TileMill/Mapnik:
1) In general, what kinds of rendering rules are slow? Does the way
you specify a rule affect the speed? (eg, is [zoom13] { #ways[...] }
slower/faster than #ways[...][zoom13] ?)
2) How does caching take place? It seems to me that when saving a
stylesheet with changes, there's a long delay before anything renders,
then subsequent small changes aren't too slow. So some layers are
computed once then reused?
3) Are there any easy tips for tuning the database?
4) Or tuning TileMill/Mapnik?
5) Watching 'top' during a render, it doesn't look like much memory is
being used. Is there a way to trade memory for speed?
6) Does setting a layer invisible definitely prevent it being
computed? Sometimes I think I'm going mad...
7) Lastly,will adding cores lead to a proportional increase in speed?
Thanks very much in advance,
Steve
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Re: [OSM-talk] Nice problem to have
Hey, There are quite a few examples of users coming from one of these big pushes and then just doing it - for instance, we were working on Campo Grande, because a foursquare user, muzito, complained that most of the city was missing. The editing quickly became all conflicted because another user was active - and it turned out to be muzito himself, who had never heard of openstreetmap till a few weeks ago and just trained himself on Potlatch 2, and now has essentially put the city on the map - complete with neighborhood names and local knowledge. It's typical for projects to have a low percentage of active users, and that most users won't immediately be addicted to OpenStreetMap. But we should react to this kind of news by trying to make OpenStreetMap more accessible an welcoming to new users: not skeptical of them, their intentions, or whether they'll stick around. Tom On Fri, Mar 16, 2012 at 4:33 AM, Lester Caine les...@lsces.co.uk wrote: Peter Wendorff wrote: It's nothing to say against these users, even if it's not more, but I hope to be wrong while guessing, that mappers invited by some of these user projects aren't necessarily interested to become part of a community of mappers and to participate in that manner. To conclude: we probably should be careful to reduce these records to the pure user count. 'contributing users' who have more than say 10 commits? -- Lester Caine - G8HFL - Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=**contacthttp://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/ Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk// Firebird - http://www.firebirdsql.org/**index.phphttp://www.firebirdsql.org/index.php __**_ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.**org/listinfo/talkhttp://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Nice problem to have
Making 60 changesets, spending a lot of time editing OpenStreetMap, and going from being a public critic of the maps (versus Google Maps, of course) to a public advocate is a big deal, even if it's just one person. A 52% active user percentage isn't terribly low: it's similar to services like twitter. What's the point of being so dismissive of new users, and pessimistic on whether they'll continue contributing? Why not actually try to encourage people to contribute and make it easier for them, rather than scoffing at their edits of 'just their own neighborhoods': that's where everyone starts, after all. Cheer up, we need an attitude readjustment. On Fri, Mar 16, 2012 at 10:25 AM, Toby Murray toby.mur...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, Mar 16, 2012 at 2:57 AM, Peter Wendorff wendo...@uni-paderborn.de wrote: Am 16.03.2012 08:31, schrieb Kai Krueger: Kai Krueger wrote This imho shows that the publicity of Apple and Foursquare using OSM directly resulted in new mappers for OSM. Although it isn't the complete record, that was around the 13th of September 2009 (anyone know if there was a special occasion arount that time?), it is the second highest number yet. Furthermore, with the news so fresh, perhaps we will still beat the record. Well, to answer my own question if we can beat the record of most new mappers in a week, it is a resounding yes. This week (beginning 8th of March) saw nearly 3300 new mappers, clearly beating the old record! Richard Fairhurst pointed out that the old record was set in the week Monopoly City Streets launched (a large scale internet game using OpenStreetMap data), so again due to a popular user of OpenStreetMap. So the more large sites use OSM, the faster the mapping community grows and therefore it is imho import for OSM and its community to care about its data consumers as it benefits from them even if they don't give back. Kai On the other hand it might be worth to look on the contributions of these additional users. How much do they contribute? Do they do more than adding their home or their own shop? How is this different than any other new user? We have 120,000 accounts (52% of accounts with any edits) with nothing but 1 or 2 changesets and 180,000 (78%) with fewer than 10 changesets. And those numbers are from before this week. So I say new users are new users are new users, no matter where they come from. Most will make minimal changes. Some will do their town/neighborhood and a very few will become ongoing active contributers. Toby ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] FourSquare and OSM
The OSM API(s) are certainly useful for integration, but a different kind - if they were pulling small chunks of data, etc., then they'd be using an API, but at this point they're mainly using tiles. More to come, but at this point the process looks like OSM Planet + update chunks - TileMill rendering - MapBox Hosting - Foursquare. Tom On Fri, Mar 2, 2012 at 5:00 PM, Frans Thamura fr...@meruvian.org wrote: does this mean that OSM API is not usefull for integration? F On Sat, Mar 3, 2012 at 2:32 AM, Toby Murray toby.mur...@gmail.com wrote: Frousquare is not using any OSM API. They are just using map tiles provided by MapBox with the leaflet library to display it in the browser. Toby On Fri, Mar 2, 2012 at 1:14 PM, Frans Thamura fr...@meruvian.org wrote: hi all we have great news that foursquare using OSM now anyone working with Fq? which API that osm using ? the ruby one? ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
