Re: [OSM-talk] Upgraded map controls

[Maarten Deen]

On 2013-07-21 22:06, Yohan Boniface wrote:

On 07/21/2013 09:49 PM, Maarten Deen wrote:
IMHO at the moment they have become superfluous. There is no way 
anymore

to zoom in or out more than one step at a time by using on-map controls
as there was with the old slider. So I'm using the mouse now to zoom in
or out.

Maybe not everybody knows this: in Leaflet maps, if you press Shift
while clicking on +/- buttons, you zoom/unzoom with a factor 3. And so
(as we are using Leaflet) it is the case on osm.org.


What would be real great if this would work for the mousecontrols too. 
So that when you use the scrollwheel on the mouse while having shift 
pressed it zooms in or out with a factor 3.
Because as I've said: using the mouse is way faster than having to go 
over to the +/- buttons.


Maarten


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Re: [OSM-talk] Upgraded map controls

[Clifford Snow]

On Sun, Jul 28, 2013 at 3:47 PM, Stefan Keller  wrote:

> I think such highscores don't belong (yet) to the main website os OSM.
> So what I still like to find out, is, what triggered the opposition to
> gamification. I can't find Saman mentioning gamification in his
> presentation (as other reported here) - or did I miss something?
>

Saman presentation was well timed. People realize that our current site is
outdated and along comes fresh ideas. Saman presented ideas to improve not
only the look and feel but also provided us with a process to introduce a
new users to OSM. In one of his slides I believe he showed badges which may
lead people to think of gamification.

Rather than being for or against the idea of gamification, we really need
to ask if gamification will increase the number of active mappers. While it
may not be something that I like, it may help us incentify mappers. Just
like some people find no need for smartphones, others can't live without
them. (Bad analogy, but it's all that came to mind!) It is possible that we
could have both. Badges and other awards could be part of the user profile
that they can turn on or off.

I applaud Saman for his efforts.


-- 
Clifford

OpenStreetMap: Maps with a human touch
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Re: [OSM-talk] Upgraded map controls

[Stefan Keller]

Hi Bryce and Janko

It seems that I have triggered many ideas about Gamification of data
capturing in OSM. I have some visions too from the existing Kort Game.
But for discussing this, I think, we should fork this thread.

I think such highscores don't belong (yet) to the main website os OSM.
So what I still like to find out, is, what triggered the opposition to
gamification. I can't find Saman mentioning gamification in his
presentation (as other reported here) - or did I miss something?

Yours, Stefan


2013/7/29 Bryce Nesbitt :
> On Sun, Jul 28, 2013 at 11:42 AM, Janko Mihelić  wrote:
>>
>>
>> I think statistics are enough for gamification. You can have lots of
>> badges like
>>
>> "Biggest contributor in Belgium" - most nodes in Belgium
>> "Road admiral of Alabama" - most roads in Alabama
>> "Power man of  Bavaria" - biggest contributor of power tags (power=line,
>> power=substation etc.) in Bavaria
>> "Forester of Croatia"
>> "Ski instructor of Switzerland"
>> etc..
>>
>> Then if you have a question about tagging a power station in some region,
>> you could quickly find "the power man" of the region, and ask them. That way
>> the badge comes with some responsibility and influence in decision making.
>> The bigger the region, the more responsibility.
>
>
> Games can be... gamed.
> As a pipsqeak in the power pole mapping influence peddling ring, I could
> zoom to the top with a few evenings of shifting nodes that did not really
> need shifting.  If the game is important enough to be gamed... it will be
> gamed.
>
> Better to say that my edits are respected.  I make an edit and someone else
> says 'thanks, that looks great', or maybe 'could we talk about the inclusion
> of bird nests on power poles a bit?'.  Then you've got a system that has
> both games and social features.  For those who don't want either there can
> be achievement levels: perhaps certain capabilities, like bulk uploads,
> could require hitting certain contribution milestones.  It works great for
> stack exchange and other similar sites.
>
>   -Bryce
>
> Note: the badge list above shows a gender-specific skew... trying giving the
> 'power man' badge to a professional female lawyer.
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Upgraded map controls

[Kathleen Danielson]

There are a lot of ways to approach gamification. I'm not saying whether or
not we should,  but we probably should avoid blanket statements that all
gamification is bad. For example,  another route we could take is a more
traditional badge model that rewards you for achievements ("You made your
first edit!" "Lifeguard badge: you've edited 20 swimming pools!"). In
addition, rather than global rankings (which would be dominated by power
mappers) showing rankings in terms of your connections might be fun.
Personally,  I'd like a way to more easily scan what my friends are up to
on OSM. I can get a feed of their recent changesets,  but even that is
pretty well hidden.

I guess what I'm saying is that we shouldn't panic too much at the word
"gamification". It covers all manner of sins :)
On Jul 28, 2013 6:30 PM, "Bryce Nesbitt"  wrote:

> On Sun, Jul 28, 2013 at 11:42 AM, Janko Mihelić  wrote:
>
>>
>> I think statistics are enough for gamification. You can have lots of
>> badges like
>>
>> "Biggest contributor in Belgium" - most nodes in Belgium
>> "Road admiral of Alabama" - most roads in Alabama
>> "Power man of  Bavaria" - biggest contributor of power tags (power=line,
>> power=substation etc.) in Bavaria
>> "Forester of Croatia"
>> "Ski instructor of Switzerland"
>> etc..
>>
>> Then if you have a question about tagging a power station in some region,
>> you could quickly find "the power man" of the region, and ask them. That
>> way the badge comes with some responsibility and influence in decision
>> making. The bigger the region, the more responsibility.
>>
>
> Games can be... gamed.
> As a pipsqeak in the power pole mapping influence peddling ring, I could
> zoom to the top with a few evenings of shifting nodes that did not really
> need shifting.  If the game is important enough to be gamed... it will be
> gamed.
>
> Better to say that my edits are *respected*.  I make an edit and someone
> else says 'thanks, that looks great', or maybe 'could we talk about the
> inclusion of bird nests on power poles a bit?'.  Then you've got a system
> that has both games and social features.  For those who don't want either
> there can be achievement levels: perhaps certain capabilities, like bulk
> uploads, could require hitting certain contribution milestones.  It works
> great for stack exchange and other similar sites.
>
>   -Bryce
>
> Note: the badge list above shows a gender-specific skew... trying giving
> the 'power man' badge to a professional female lawyer.
>
> ___
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> talk@openstreetmap.org
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Re: [OSM-talk] Upgraded map controls

[Bryce Nesbitt]

On Sun, Jul 28, 2013 at 11:42 AM, Janko Mihelić  wrote:

>
> I think statistics are enough for gamification. You can have lots of
> badges like
>
> "Biggest contributor in Belgium" - most nodes in Belgium
> "Road admiral of Alabama" - most roads in Alabama
> "Power man of  Bavaria" - biggest contributor of power tags (power=line,
> power=substation etc.) in Bavaria
> "Forester of Croatia"
> "Ski instructor of Switzerland"
> etc..
>
> Then if you have a question about tagging a power station in some region,
> you could quickly find "the power man" of the region, and ask them. That
> way the badge comes with some responsibility and influence in decision
> making. The bigger the region, the more responsibility.
>

Games can be... gamed.
As a pipsqeak in the power pole mapping influence peddling ring, I could
zoom to the top with a few evenings of shifting nodes that did not really
need shifting.  If the game is important enough to be gamed... it will be
gamed.

Better to say that my edits are *respected*.  I make an edit and someone
else says 'thanks, that looks great', or maybe 'could we talk about the
inclusion of bird nests on power poles a bit?'.  Then you've got a system
that has both games and social features.  For those who don't want either
there can be achievement levels: perhaps certain capabilities, like bulk
uploads, could require hitting certain contribution milestones.  It works
great for stack exchange and other similar sites.

  -Bryce

Note: the badge list above shows a gender-specific skew... trying giving
the 'power man' badge to a professional female lawyer.
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Re: [OSM-talk] Upgraded map controls

[Janko Mihelić]

2013/7/28 Stefan Keller 

> OSM UI? I found the video of the presentation but can't find any hint
> in this direction:
> http://vimeopro.com/openstreetmapus/state-of-the-map-us-2013/video/68093877
>
> I assume that you are referring to some statistics displayed about
> users which to me is only a distant aspect of gamification.
>

I think statistics are enough for gamification. You can have lots of badges
like

"Biggest contributor in Belgium" - most nodes in Belgium
"Road admiral of Alabama" - most roads in Alabama
"Power man of  Bavaria" - biggest contributor of power tags (power=line,
power=substation etc.) in Bavaria
"Forester of Croatia"
"Ski instructor of Switzerland"
etc..

Then if you have a question about tagging a power station in some region,
you could quickly find "the power man" of the region, and ask them. That
way the badge comes with some responsibility and influence in decision
making. The bigger the region, the more responsibility.

Janko
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Re: [OSM-talk] Upgraded map controls

[Stefan Keller]

Hi Michal

To come back this thread I'm interested in what you refer to by "Gamification".

What was Saman referring to in his talk regarding gamification of the
OSM UI? I found the video of the presentation but can't find any hint
in this direction:
http://vimeopro.com/openstreetmapus/state-of-the-map-us-2013/video/68093877

I assume that you are referring to some statistics displayed about
users which to me is only a distant aspect of gamification.

The background why I'm asking is, that I'm going to talk about
Gamification (based on experiences using Kort Game but it's more
general view than of OSM) at SOTM in Birmingham.

Yours, Stefan

2013/7/24 Michal Migurski :
> On Jul 22, 2013, at 7:21 AM, Simon Poole wrote:
>
>> Am 21.07.2013 20:18, schrieb Michal Migurski:
>>> Supporting official venues for orderly change is what the board should
>>> be doing, but is not. I would support the creation and use of a
>>> proposal/vote/implementation process for the community, even if the
>>> first proposal is just "be it resolved that Mapbox accepts
>>> responsibility for the visual design of OSM.org".
>>
>> I would find it very very difficult to subject superficial design
>> changes to a popular vote, these are matters of personal taste and work
>> flow and it is very unlikely that we could reach any kind of consensus
>> within a reasonable time frame, wit this thread. What would be nice if
>> we could get to a state where changing the visual appearance of the main
>> site would not be such a heavy weight task (at least not for the devs)
>> and could happen substantially more often than once in a decade.
>
> It's a heavyweight task because there's no higher-level process to guide it, 
> other than the one brought by volunteers. No strategy or goals from the 
> foundation that would provide some rationale for a change and no decisions 
> that would delegate someone to follow through on those goals. Bikeshedding is 
> rarely a failure on the part of the bike shedders, more often a failure of 
> strategy and leadership. The workings of our front page are most definitely 
> not a matter of personal taste!
>
>
>> Now high level goals and to a certain point functionality is something
>> that, IMHO, is worth discussing with a large group, and we have ongoing
>> discussions that cover exactly such territory. Besides what has been
>> written here, there is a larger one on the German list about the
>> potential gamification of OSM which shows that such a step is not simply
>> a design question and definitely needs more community consensus if it
>> should be seriously considered for implementation.
>
>
> No kidding! Any consensus from the Germans?
>
> -mike.
>
> 
> michal migurski- contact info and pgp key:
> sf/cahttp://mike.teczno.com/contact.html
>
>
>
>
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Upgraded map controls

[Michal Migurski]

On Jul 22, 2013, at 7:21 AM, Simon Poole wrote:

> Am 21.07.2013 20:18, schrieb Michal Migurski:
>> Supporting official venues for orderly change is what the board should
>> be doing, but is not. I would support the creation and use of a
>> proposal/vote/implementation process for the community, even if the
>> first proposal is just "be it resolved that Mapbox accepts
>> responsibility for the visual design of OSM.org". 
> 
> I would find it very very difficult to subject superficial design
> changes to a popular vote, these are matters of personal taste and work
> flow and it is very unlikely that we could reach any kind of consensus
> within a reasonable time frame, wit this thread. What would be nice if
> we could get to a state where changing the visual appearance of the main
> site would not be such a heavy weight task (at least not for the devs)
> and could happen substantially more often than once in a decade.

It's a heavyweight task because there's no higher-level process to guide it, 
other than the one brought by volunteers. No strategy or goals from the 
foundation that would provide some rationale for a change and no decisions that 
would delegate someone to follow through on those goals. Bikeshedding is rarely 
a failure on the part of the bike shedders, more often a failure of strategy 
and leadership. The workings of our front page are most definitely not a matter 
of personal taste!


> Now high level goals and to a certain point functionality is something
> that, IMHO, is worth discussing with a large group, and we have ongoing
> discussions that cover exactly such territory. Besides what has been
> written here, there is a larger one on the German list about the
> potential gamification of OSM which shows that such a step is not simply
> a design question and definitely needs more community consensus if it
> should be seriously considered for implementation.


No kidding! Any consensus from the Germans?

-mike.


michal migurski- contact info and pgp key:
sf/cahttp://mike.teczno.com/contact.html





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Re: [OSM-talk] Upgraded map controls

[colliar]

Am 21.07.2013 22:01, schrieb Frederik Ramm:
> Hi,
> 
> On 21.07.2013 21:28, Kai Krueger wrote:
>> It begs the question, if this high level design decisions shouldn't
>> live on
>> the design@ list instead of rails-dev or in the git-hub bug tracker.
> 
> Yes, I can imagine that to some a "you only have to follow rails-dev" is
> a very hitchhikers-guidesque response.
> 
> My impression is this:
> 
> 1. Lots of people re-iterate the mantra that mailing lists (and "talk"
> in particular) are places where you'll only get flak for all your good
> ideas, and endless "bikeshedding", and whatnot. I think that this is not
> supported by facts.
> 
> 2. Therefore if you do something you're tempted to ignore the mailing
> lists, as everyone tells you they're the pits of hell.
> 
> 3. Therefore, people on the mailing lists - even the majority that is
> not troublemakers - feel sidelined, and complain.
> 
> Often even *informing* people in advance could help a lot.
> 
> I think that the situation would already be much improved if, when
> something of greater importance pops up on rails-dev or elsewhere,
> someone informs the "talk" list about that. For example, in the specific
> case, once TomH had set up the working branch with the new UI, a quick
> note should have gone up on talk: "look here this new design, being
> discussed here in case you want to say something". A couple of people
> might want to say something but the majority will just be pleased to
> have been told about it.
> 
> Anyone can do this cross-pollination of the talk list, and maybe we
> should make it a habit.

+1

> I'll start with:
> 
> Hi everyone, there's an idea to provide a new welcome/"landing" page
> used to send new users to, or maybe those who come to OSM via one of the
> sites using OSM maps. It can be viewed here
> 
> http://welcome.apis.dev.openstreetmap.org/welcome
> 
> and the discussion is here
> 
> https://github.com/openstreetmap/openstreetmap-website/pull/338

Please, use an own thread for announcements, otherwise they are often
missed.

colliar




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Re: [OSM-talk] Upgraded map controls

[Simon Poole]

Am 21.07.2013 20:18, schrieb Michal Migurski:
> Supporting official venues for orderly change is what the board should
> be doing, but is not. I would support the creation and use of a
> proposal/vote/implementation process for the community, even if the
> first proposal is just "be it resolved that Mapbox accepts
> responsibility for the visual design of OSM.org". 

I would find it very very difficult to subject superficial design
changes to a popular vote, these are matters of personal taste and work
flow and it is very unlikely that we could reach any kind of consensus
within a reasonable time frame, wit this thread. What would be nice if
we could get to a state where changing the visual appearance of the main
site would not be such a heavy weight task (at least not for the devs)
and could happen substantially more often than once in a decade.

> The new icons and map controls are good and I'm getting accustomed to them, 
> but the process by which they made it onto the site worries me. Mostly, it's 
> because Saman opened his SotM-US talk with a "blow it all up" slide and 
> finished with gamification that I'm uneasy with how we're treating the visual 
> presentation of OSM.org. Gamification is a sad, sorry sideshow and we 
> shouldn't do it; it only became a meme because Zynga made a zillion dollars 
> and look how that turned out. Do we plan to follow through on gamifying the 
> OSM UI as Saman suggested in his talk? I don't know, and I don't want to have 
> to subscribe to Github pull requests to find out.
Now high level goals and to a certain point functionality is something
that, IMHO, is worth discussing with a large group, and we have ongoing
discussions that cover exactly such territory. Besides what has been
written here, there is a larger one on the German list about the
potential gamification of OSM which shows that such a step is not simply
a design question and definitely needs more community consensus if it
should be seriously considered for implementation.
 
Simon



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Re: [OSM-talk] Upgraded map controls

[Tom Hughes]

On 21/07/13 22:01, Frederik Ramm wrote:


PS: If I reply to a message on rails-dev, will it land in the proper
github ticket discussion? I tried it once a while ago and found that my
comments were not there, and it seemed that some people were reading via
rails-dev and got my message while others were reading via github and
didn't. Has someone successfully used the write portion of the gateway?


It will appear, but please, please don't do it.

The problem is that the gateway runs by having an openstreetmap-website 
user registered on github that has the rails-dev list as their email 
address, and if you reply to the list message then when it appears on 
github it is posted as a comment from openstreetmap-website and there is 
no way to tell who really made it.


Tom

--
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http://compton.nu/

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Re: [OSM-talk] Upgraded map controls

[rainerU]

Am 21.07.2013 20:47, schrieb Richard Fairhurst:
> You only have to follow one mailing list: rails-dev@. 

As its name says, this list is about development. The discussion in this thread
is about requirements. Its a good practice to clearly separate discussion of
requirements from their implementation. This includes also communication about
the release of an implementation. That's how user/developer relations should
work. It is not because we do not have a customer/provider relationship but are
an open community that we should throw such proven principles over board and mix
all up.

Rainer


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Re: [OSM-talk] Upgraded map controls

[Yohan Boniface]

Humm...
Just to be clear: I'm not involved in anyway in osm.org redesign.
I've given this tip because it seems to me that the topic was about 
keeping or not the +/- buttons, and imho it's a useful tip for people 
who, like me, doesn't use a mouse.


Yohan

On 07/21/2013 10:47 PM, Maarten Deen wrote:

On 2013-07-21 22:06, Yohan Boniface wrote:

On 07/21/2013 09:49 PM, Maarten Deen wrote:
IMHO at the moment they have become superfluous. There is no way anymore
to zoom in or out more than one step at a time by using on-map controls
as there was with the old slider. So I'm using the mouse now to zoom in
or out.

Maybe not everybody knows this: in Leaflet maps, if you press Shift
while clicking on +/- buttons, you zoom/unzoom with a factor 3. And so
(as we are using Leaflet) it is the case on osm.org.


So it's what Frederik says, but it goes further. Not only does noone get
informed, when there are changes noone (except the developers and maybe
the happy few that get told) know how to use the new interface.

That's the second thing I had to find out by first complaining that "it
doesn't work".
And that's not a good thing. I find it out here. How does someone who
only uses the map find out?

Maarten


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Re: [OSM-talk] Upgraded map controls

[Maarten Deen]

On 2013-07-21 22:06, Yohan Boniface wrote:

On 07/21/2013 09:49 PM, Maarten Deen wrote:
IMHO at the moment they have become superfluous. There is no way 
anymore

to zoom in or out more than one step at a time by using on-map controls
as there was with the old slider. So I'm using the mouse now to zoom in
or out.

Maybe not everybody knows this: in Leaflet maps, if you press Shift
while clicking on +/- buttons, you zoom/unzoom with a factor 3. And so
(as we are using Leaflet) it is the case on osm.org.


So it's what Frederik says, but it goes further. Not only does noone get 
informed, when there are changes noone (except the developers and maybe 
the happy few that get told) know how to use the new interface.


That's the second thing I had to find out by first complaining that "it 
doesn't work".
And that's not a good thing. I find it out here. How does someone who 
only uses the map find out?


Maarten


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Re: [OSM-talk] Upgraded map controls

[Yohan Boniface]

On 07/21/2013 09:49 PM, Maarten Deen wrote:

IMHO at the moment they have become superfluous. There is no way anymore
to zoom in or out more than one step at a time by using on-map controls
as there was with the old slider. So I'm using the mouse now to zoom in
or out.


Maybe not everybody knows this: in Leaflet maps, if you press Shift 
while clicking on +/- buttons, you zoom/unzoom with a factor 3. And so 
(as we are using Leaflet) it is the case on osm.org.


Yohan

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Re: [OSM-talk] Upgraded map controls

[Frederik Ramm]

Hi,

On 21.07.2013 21:28, Kai Krueger wrote:

It begs the question, if this high level design decisions shouldn't live on
the design@ list instead of rails-dev or in the git-hub bug tracker.


Yes, I can imagine that to some a "you only have to follow rails-dev" is 
a very hitchhikers-guidesque response.


My impression is this:

1. Lots of people re-iterate the mantra that mailing lists (and "talk" 
in particular) are places where you'll only get flak for all your good 
ideas, and endless "bikeshedding", and whatnot. I think that this is not 
supported by facts.


2. Therefore if you do something you're tempted to ignore the mailing 
lists, as everyone tells you they're the pits of hell.


3. Therefore, people on the mailing lists - even the majority that is 
not troublemakers - feel sidelined, and complain.


Often even *informing* people in advance could help a lot.

I think that the situation would already be much improved if, when 
something of greater importance pops up on rails-dev or elsewhere, 
someone informs the "talk" list about that. For example, in the specific 
case, once TomH had set up the working branch with the new UI, a quick 
note should have gone up on talk: "look here this new design, being 
discussed here in case you want to say something". A couple of people 
might want to say something but the majority will just be pleased to 
have been told about it.


Anyone can do this cross-pollination of the talk list, and maybe we 
should make it a habit.


I'll start with:

Hi everyone, there's an idea to provide a new welcome/"landing" page 
used to send new users to, or maybe those who come to OSM via one of the 
sites using OSM maps. It can be viewed here


http://welcome.apis.dev.openstreetmap.org/welcome

and the discussion is here

https://github.com/openstreetmap/openstreetmap-website/pull/338

Bye
Frederik

PS: If I reply to a message on rails-dev, will it land in the proper 
github ticket discussion? I tried it once a while ago and found that my 
comments were not there, and it seemed that some people were reading via 
rails-dev and got my message while others were reading via github and 
didn't. Has someone successfully used the write portion of the gateway?


--
Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail frede...@remote.org  ##  N49°00'09" E008°23'33"

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Re: [OSM-talk] Upgraded map controls

[Maarten Deen]

On 2013-07-21 20:18, Michal Migurski wrote:


The new icons and map controls are good and I'm getting accustomed to
them, but the process by which they made it onto the site worries me.


IMHO at the moment they have become superfluous. There is no way anymore 
to zoom in or out more than one step at a time by using on-map controls 
as there was with the old slider. So I'm using the mouse now to zoom in 
or out. It's much faster than the +/- buttons.

As far as I'm concerned they can be removed.

Maarten

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Re: [OSM-talk] Upgraded map controls

[Michal Migurski]

On Jul 21, 2013, at 12:28 PM, Kai Krueger wrote:

> It begs the question, if this high level design decisions shouldn't live on
> the design@ list instead of rails-dev or in the git-hub bug tracker.
> 
> rails-dev can sometimes have a reasonably high volume and most of it is
> boring technical detail, like e.g. if oauth needs relative or absolute URLs
> to produce valid signatures. This is something most people don't (and
> probably shouldn't) care about and won't read rails-dev. So putting high
> level design discussions that does effect everyone who uses osm.org and
> where because it is subjective, everyone can have a valid opinion on it, is
> perhaps a bad idea. After all there is a specific list just for this kind of
> purpose i.e. design@
> 
> Of cause fragmenting mailing-lists further and further is probably a bad
> idea though as well.

I do like Richard's thought that "rails-dev" should be "site-dev", if a 
renaming was accompanied with the merging of the design@ list. We'd come out 
with a less-fragmented and clearer selection of mailing lists!

It makes sense to me that the people making design suggestions and those who 
implement them participate in the same conversation space, even if the 
designers need to occasionally skip an OAuth thread or the developers get bored 
of hearing about hex colors and corner radii.

The key though is delegation and recordkeeping. If we should decide that Saman 
+ Mapbox own the visual design of the site for a period of time, we need to be 
clear that that includes credit, accountability, and a paper trail of 
deliberations that we can point to when someone asks if we really need plus and 
minus buttons on the map.

-mike.


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sf/cahttp://mike.teczno.com/contact.html





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Re: [OSM-talk] Upgraded map controls

[Kai Krueger]

It begs the question, if this high level design decisions shouldn't live on
the design@ list instead of rails-dev or in the git-hub bug tracker.

rails-dev can sometimes have a reasonably high volume and most of it is
boring technical detail, like e.g. if oauth needs relative or absolute URLs
to produce valid signatures. This is something most people don't (and
probably shouldn't) care about and won't read rails-dev. So putting high
level design discussions that does effect everyone who uses osm.org and
where because it is subjective, everyone can have a valid opinion on it, is
perhaps a bad idea. After all there is a specific list just for this kind of
purpose i.e. design@

Of cause fragmenting mailing-lists further and further is probably a bad
idea though as well.

Kai



Michal Migurski-2 wrote
> On Jul 21, 2013, at 11:47 AM, Richard Fairhurst wrote:
> 
>> Michal Migurski wrote:
>>> On Jul 21, 2013, at 5:42 AM, Pieren wrote:
 If you missed the discussion because you don't watch the 
 non-localized 35 mailing lists
 [...]
>>> I don't know, and I don't want to have to subscribe to Github 
>>> pull requests to find out.
>> 
>> You only have to follow one mailing list: rails-dev@. Just as if you're
>> interested in the development of JOSM you should follow josm-dev@, if
>> you're
>> interested in the development of Potlatch you should follow
>> potlatch-dev@,
>> if you're interested in the development of Merkaartor, OSRM, Nominatim,
>> etc.
>> etc.
>> 
>> All site issues on github and site issues on trac are gatewayed to
>> rails-dev, so you won't miss anything.
>> 
>> (rails-dev is a daft, uninituitive name and really it should be called
>> site-dev, but history.)
> 
> Thank you Richard, I am subscribed. I had not realized that the scope of
> rails-dev was larger than the technical development and maintenance of the
> Rails port. For me, this explains past flame-outs of the design@ list.
> 
> -mike.
> 
> 
> michal migurski- contact info and pgp key:
> sf/cahttp://mike.teczno.com/contact.html
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ___
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> talk@

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Re: [OSM-talk] Upgraded map controls

[Michal Migurski]

On Jul 21, 2013, at 11:47 AM, Richard Fairhurst wrote:

> Michal Migurski wrote:
>> On Jul 21, 2013, at 5:42 AM, Pieren wrote:
>>> If you missed the discussion because you don't watch the 
>>> non-localized 35 mailing lists
>>> [...]
>> I don't know, and I don't want to have to subscribe to Github 
>> pull requests to find out.
> 
> You only have to follow one mailing list: rails-dev@. Just as if you're
> interested in the development of JOSM you should follow josm-dev@, if you're
> interested in the development of Potlatch you should follow potlatch-dev@,
> if you're interested in the development of Merkaartor, OSRM, Nominatim, etc.
> etc.
> 
> All site issues on github and site issues on trac are gatewayed to
> rails-dev, so you won't miss anything.
> 
> (rails-dev is a daft, uninituitive name and really it should be called
> site-dev, but history.)

Thank you Richard, I am subscribed. I had not realized that the scope of 
rails-dev was larger than the technical development and maintenance of the 
Rails port. For me, this explains past flame-outs of the design@ list.

-mike.


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Re: [OSM-talk] Upgraded map controls

[Richard Fairhurst]

Michal Migurski wrote:
> On Jul 21, 2013, at 5:42 AM, Pieren wrote:
> > If you missed the discussion because you don't watch the 
> > non-localized 35 mailing lists
> > [...]
> I don't know, and I don't want to have to subscribe to Github 
> pull requests to find out.

You only have to follow one mailing list: rails-dev@. Just as if you're
interested in the development of JOSM you should follow josm-dev@, if you're
interested in the development of Potlatch you should follow potlatch-dev@,
if you're interested in the development of Merkaartor, OSRM, Nominatim, etc.
etc.

All site issues on github and site issues on trac are gatewayed to
rails-dev, so you won't miss anything.

(rails-dev is a daft, uninituitive name and really it should be called
site-dev, but history.)

Anticipating next message: Pieren will now complain that this public mailing
list is a "secretive" list as he traditionally does re: legal-talk@. :)

cheers
Richard





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Re: [OSM-talk] Upgraded map controls

[Tom MacWright]

Hey,

Let's also not lose the fact that this thread started with 'Should we
remove the +/- buttons' and has visited about 10 topics in 37 emails since
then. Maybe it's time to start fresh with a focused thread.

Tom


On Sun, Jul 21, 2013 at 2:18 PM, Michal Migurski  wrote:

> On Jul 21, 2013, at 5:42 AM, Pieren wrote:
>
> > On Sun, Jul 21, 2013 at 12:55 AM, Dave F. 
> wrote:
> >> On 20/07/2013 12:57, Paul Norman wrote:
> >
> >> Rails port pull requests?!?! wtf.
> > :
> >> I really think some developers are living in their own world.
> >
> > lol. They do !
> > If you missed the discussion because you don't watch the non-localized
> > 35 mailing lists, 5 irc channels, 13 forums, 8 foundation working
> > groups reports, all pull requests discussions in github/osm and the
> > videos of the last SOTM, it's really your fault :-)
>
>
> Supporting official venues for orderly change is what the board should be
> doing, but is not. I would support the creation and use of a
> proposal/vote/implementation process for the community, even if the first
> proposal is just "be it resolved that Mapbox accepts responsibility for the
> visual design of OSM.org".
>
> The new icons and map controls are good and I'm getting accustomed to
> them, but the process by which they made it onto the site worries me.
> Mostly, it's because Saman opened his SotM-US talk with a "blow it all up"
> slide and finished with gamification that I'm uneasy with how we're
> treating the visual presentation of OSM.org. Gamification is a sad, sorry
> sideshow and we shouldn't do it; it only became a meme because Zynga made a
> zillion dollars and look how that turned out. Do we plan to follow through
> on gamifying the OSM UI as Saman suggested in his talk? I don't know, and I
> don't want to have to subscribe to Github pull requests to find out.
>
> Let's not lose sight of the fact that OSM.org has mapped the world in a
> decade.
>
> -mike.
>
> 
> michal migurski- contact info and pgp key:
> sf/cahttp://mike.teczno.com/contact.html
>
>
>
>
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Upgraded map controls

[Michal Migurski]

On Jul 21, 2013, at 5:42 AM, Pieren wrote:

> On Sun, Jul 21, 2013 at 12:55 AM, Dave F.  wrote:
>> On 20/07/2013 12:57, Paul Norman wrote:
> 
>> Rails port pull requests?!?! wtf.
> :
>> I really think some developers are living in their own world.
> 
> lol. They do !
> If you missed the discussion because you don't watch the non-localized
> 35 mailing lists, 5 irc channels, 13 forums, 8 foundation working
> groups reports, all pull requests discussions in github/osm and the
> videos of the last SOTM, it's really your fault :-)


Supporting official venues for orderly change is what the board should be 
doing, but is not. I would support the creation and use of a 
proposal/vote/implementation process for the community, even if the first 
proposal is just "be it resolved that Mapbox accepts responsibility for the 
visual design of OSM.org".

The new icons and map controls are good and I'm getting accustomed to them, but 
the process by which they made it onto the site worries me. Mostly, it's 
because Saman opened his SotM-US talk with a "blow it all up" slide and 
finished with gamification that I'm uneasy with how we're treating the visual 
presentation of OSM.org. Gamification is a sad, sorry sideshow and we shouldn't 
do it; it only became a meme because Zynga made a zillion dollars and look how 
that turned out. Do we plan to follow through on gamifying the OSM UI as Saman 
suggested in his talk? I don't know, and I don't want to have to subscribe to 
Github pull requests to find out.

Let's not lose sight of the fact that OSM.org has mapped the world in a decade.

-mike.


michal migurski- contact info and pgp key:
sf/cahttp://mike.teczno.com/contact.html





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Re: [OSM-talk] Upgraded map controls

[Pieren]

On Sun, Jul 21, 2013 at 12:55 AM, Dave F.  wrote:
> On 20/07/2013 12:57, Paul Norman wrote:

> Rails port pull requests?!?! wtf.
:
> I really think some developers are living in their own world.

lol. They do !
If you missed the discussion because you don't watch the non-localized
35 mailing lists, 5 irc channels, 13 forums, 8 foundation working
groups reports, all pull requests discussions in github/osm and the
videos of the last SOTM, it's really your fault :-)

Pieren

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Re: [OSM-talk] Upgraded map controls

[Dave F.]

My reply is going private as it's now OT.

On 21/07/2013 02:17, Kathleen Danielson wrote:


My criticisms are based purely on his inability to communicate
clearly.


Dave,

As you say, you know nothing personally of this man, and yet you have 
discerned he is unable to communicate? Saman is not above criticism. 
However, we, as a community, are above sweeping statements such as the 
ones you have made. Constructive feedback is a vital part of progress, 
but please be more considerate of your fellow community members who 
are working hard to make OpenStreetMap.org a more useful tool for 
everyone when you disparage not just their work, but them personally.


In addition, if you are going to take this route, please be sure to 
focus your responses on ideas and products put forth, and do not make 
character attacks. Having watched a video of a presentation does not 
entitle you or anyone to point out a person's "failings".



On Sat, Jul 20, 2013 at 9:08 PM, Dave F. > wrote:


Hello Tom

I reject & mildly resent your criticism that I made an ad hominem
attack. I know nothing personally of this man. My criticisms are
based purely on his inability to communicate clearly. As the
primary reason for his lecture was to explain the new layout I
feel perfectly entitled to point out his failings.

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/ad-hominem

You appear to believe that as he has "emotions", he is above
criticism. Strange.

Dave F.


On 21/07/2013 01:42, Tom MacWright wrote:

Hi Dave,

Please be civil, we're all trying our best to be nice and make
progress here. It's inappropriate to start ad-hominem
attacking developers, especially in the case of Saman - who is
in fact a designer, not to mention a real person, in the real
world, with actual emotions.

Thanks,

Tom




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Re: [OSM-talk] Upgraded map controls

[Kathleen Danielson]

>
> My criticisms are based purely on his inability to communicate clearly.


Dave,

As you say, you know nothing personally of this man, and yet you have
discerned he is unable to communicate? Saman is not above criticism.
However, we, as a community, are above sweeping statements such as the ones
you have made. Constructive feedback is a vital part of progress, but
please be more considerate of your fellow community members who are working
hard to make OpenStreetMap.org a more useful tool for everyone when you
disparage not just their work, but them personally.

In addition, if you are going to take this route, please be sure to focus
your responses on ideas and products put forth, and do not make character
attacks. Having watched a video of a presentation does not entitle you or
anyone to point out a person's "failings".


On Sat, Jul 20, 2013 at 9:08 PM, Dave F.  wrote:

> Hello Tom
>
> I reject & mildly resent your criticism that I made an ad hominem attack.
> I know nothing personally of this man. My criticisms are based purely on
> his inability to communicate clearly. As the primary reason for his lecture
> was to explain the new layout I feel perfectly entitled to point out his
> failings.
>
>  
> http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/**ad-hominem
>
> You appear to believe that as he has "emotions", he is above criticism.
> Strange.
>
> Dave F.
>
>
> On 21/07/2013 01:42, Tom MacWright wrote:
>
>> Hi Dave,
>>
>> Please be civil, we're all trying our best to be nice and make progress
>> here. It's inappropriate to start ad-hominem attacking developers,
>> especially in the case of Saman - who is in fact a designer, not to mention
>> a real person, in the real world, with actual emotions.
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Tom
>>
>>
>>
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Upgraded map controls

[Dave F.]

Hello Tom

I reject & mildly resent your criticism that I made an ad hominem 
attack. I know nothing personally of this man. My criticisms are based 
purely on his inability to communicate clearly. As the primary reason 
for his lecture was to explain the new layout I feel perfectly entitled 
to point out his failings.


 http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/ad-hominem

You appear to believe that as he has "emotions", he is above criticism. 
Strange.


Dave F.

On 21/07/2013 01:42, Tom MacWright wrote:

Hi Dave,

Please be civil, we're all trying our best to be nice and make 
progress here. It's inappropriate to start ad-hominem attacking 
developers, especially in the case of Saman - who is in fact a 
designer, not to mention a real person, in the real world, with actual 
emotions.


Thanks,

Tom





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Re: [OSM-talk] Upgraded map controls

[Jason Remillard]

I just watched all 30 minutes of the video. I am a professional
software engineer, the designer seemed extremely competent. Because of
the presentation, I trust that the people working on his know what
they are doing and I am very excited to see what comes next. Please
lets give them some space to work. This is just the first step

On Sat, Jul 20, 2013 at 8:18 PM, Dave F.  wrote:
> On 20/07/2013 09:25, Richard Fairhurst wrote:
>>
>> James Mast wrote:
>>>
>>> I'm personally not liking that they now have hidden the
>>> long/short links to the map location behind buttons.
>>> Instead of just one click to get the map location, now
>>> it's two clicks and is really annoying and slowing down
>>> work for me. :(
>>
>> Ok, I've said this at least three times elsewhere,
>
>
> Why wasn't it mentioned in the link from the tweet?
> http://blog.openstreetmap.org/2013/07/19/new-map-control/
>
> Actually why wasn't any of the instructions mentioned in the link?
> I see there's a video presentation, but really, at 26 minutes long, who has
> the time & patience or bandwidth to wade through that? #real_world
>
> I've just listened to the first three minutes of it. A classic example of
> why programmers shouldn't present/explain/write help files for their own
> programs. Again #real_world.
>
> Dave F.
>
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Upgraded map controls

[Tom MacWright]

Hi Dave,

Please be civil, we're all trying our best to be nice and make progress
here. It's inappropriate to start ad-hominem attacking developers,
especially in the case of Saman - who is in fact a designer, not to mention
a real person, in the real world, with actual emotions.

Thanks,

Tom


On Sat, Jul 20, 2013 at 8:18 PM, Dave F.  wrote:

> On 20/07/2013 09:25, Richard Fairhurst wrote:
>
>> James Mast wrote:
>>
>>> I'm personally not liking that they now have hidden the
>>> long/short links to the map location behind buttons.
>>> Instead of just one click to get the map location, now
>>> it's two clicks and is really annoying and slowing down
>>> work for me. :(
>>>
>> Ok, I've said this at least three times elsewhere,
>>
>
> Why wasn't it mentioned in the link from the tweet?
> http://blog.openstreetmap.org/**2013/07/19/new-map-control/
>
> Actually why wasn't any of the instructions mentioned in the link?
> I see there's a video presentation, but really, at 26 minutes long, who
> has the time & patience or bandwidth to wade through that? #real_world
>
> I've just listened to the first three minutes of it. A classic example of
> why programmers shouldn't present/explain/write help files for their own
> programs. Again #real_world.
>
> Dave F.
>
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Upgraded map controls

[Dave F.]

On 20/07/2013 09:25, Richard Fairhurst wrote:

James Mast wrote:

I'm personally not liking that they now have hidden the
long/short links to the map location behind buttons.
Instead of just one click to get the map location, now
it's two clicks and is really annoying and slowing down
work for me. :(

Ok, I've said this at least three times elsewhere,


Why wasn't it mentioned in the link from the tweet? 
http://blog.openstreetmap.org/2013/07/19/new-map-control/


Actually why wasn't any of the instructions mentioned in the link?
I see there's a video presentation, but really, at 26 minutes long, who 
has the time & patience or bandwidth to wade through that? #real_world


I've just listened to the first three minutes of it. A classic example 
of why programmers shouldn't present/explain/write help files for their 
own programs. Again #real_world.


Dave F.

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Re: [OSM-talk] Upgraded map controls

[Paul Norman]

> From: Maarten Deen [mailto:md...@xs4all.nl]
> Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Upgraded map controls
> 
> > http://lists.osm.org/pipermail/talk/2013-July/067499.html (in reply to
> > Andrew Errington)
> 
> Okay, so you even have to read all threads, even if you don't find them
> insteresting anymore...

My original reply was to Andrew complaint's. I think it's entirely
reasonable 
to expect someone to read messages sent directly to them in reply to an
earlier
message by them.




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Re: [OSM-talk] Upgraded map controls

[James Mast]

Good to know that.  Hope it can be fixed soon as I don't like having to add a 
second comment to the note, just to subscribe myself to it for e-mail updates. 
(At least the follow-up comment part is still working when you're logged in.)
 
Anyways,  I had already submitted a ticket on Trac before your e-mail arrived.  
I bet TomH will probably mark it as a duplicate very soon. lol.
 
-James
 
From: t...@macwright.org
Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2013 19:09:27 -0400
To: dave...@madasafish.com
CC: talk@openstreetmap.org
Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Upgraded map controls

Hi James,
That issue has been reported and is being worked on: 
https://github.com/openstreetmap/openstreetmap-website/issues/356





On Sat, Jul 20, 2013 at 6:55 PM, Dave F.  wrote:


On 20/07/2013 12:57, Paul Norman wrote:


Whoops - resending to the right talk@ list






Which list?


All rails port pull requests and issues automatically goes to the rails-dev@

list, which is the list for "discussion of rails port (web site)

development"

If you prefer a format other than email, I believe if you watch the repo

(where the source is) though github you can get all the updates.






Rails port pull requests?!?! wtf.



How about posting it to a real world, end user forum that speaks in English? 
And also not to an instant chat one that only certain people, in certain time 
zones, can see.



I really think some developers are living in their own world.



Dave F.





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Re: [OSM-talk] Upgraded map controls

[Tom MacWright]

Hi James,

That issue has been reported and is being worked on:
https://github.com/openstreetmap/openstreetmap-website/issues/356


On Sat, Jul 20, 2013 at 6:55 PM, Dave F.  wrote:

> On 20/07/2013 12:57, Paul Norman wrote:
>
>> Whoops - resending to the right talk@ list
>>
>>
>>> Which list?
>>>
>> All rails port pull requests and issues automatically goes to the
>> rails-dev@
>> list, which is the list for "discussion of rails port (web site)
>> development"
>> If you prefer a format other than email, I believe if you watch the repo
>> (where the source is) though github you can get all the updates.
>>
>>
> Rails port pull requests?!?! wtf.
>
> How about posting it to a real world, end user forum that speaks in
> English? And also not to an instant chat one that only certain people, in
> certain time zones, can see.
>
> I really think some developers are living in their own world.
>
> Dave F.
>
>
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Upgraded map controls

[Dave F.]

On 20/07/2013 12:57, Paul Norman wrote:

Whoops - resending to the right talk@ list



Which list?

All rails port pull requests and issues automatically goes to the rails-dev@
list, which is the list for "discussion of rails port (web site)
development"
If you prefer a format other than email, I believe if you watch the repo
(where the source is) though github you can get all the updates.



Rails port pull requests?!?! wtf.

How about posting it to a real world, end user forum that speaks in 
English? And also not to an instant chat one that only certain people, 
in certain time zones, can see.


I really think some developers are living in their own world.

Dave F.


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Re: [OSM-talk] Upgraded map controls

[James Mast]

Is anybody else having problems submitting notes as "themselves" with the new 
interface?  I just tried to submit a note, but it claimed it was done by 
"anonymous" and I was logged into the site at the time [1].  It seems that 
commenting on a already created note is fine, just not creating the initial 
one...  Off to file a bug report...
 
-James
 
[1] - http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/note/15422
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Re: [OSM-talk] Upgraded map controls

[Lester Caine]

Andrew Errington wrote:

On Sat, 20 Jul 2013 15:16:10 James Mast wrote:

>I'm personally not liking that they now have hidden the long/short links to
>the map location behind buttons.  Instead of just one click to get the map
>location, now it's two clicks and is really annoying and slowing down work
>for me.:(
>
>-James

I miss the zoom slider, and I also agree that permalink should remain "on
top", accessible with one click.  Also, my proposal for including
a "markerlink" has not been taken up.
The links have always had a few ways of picking them up and trying to interpret 
scale from the scale bar is not as intuitive as the zoom bar. But my problem is 
using the map now on my Galaxy4 phone. I use landscape and only the top 4 
buttons are accessible. But then a lot of applications seem to ignore the 
problem of smaller rotatable displays :( Sliding the map around conflicts with 
zooming the screen to SEE the controls!


FORTUNATELY I have my own copy of the older style viewer still running so if 
people want access contact me off list ;) I'm targeting the UK so including a 
few more layers



I also didn't see any consultation on this topic.  Just another fait accompli.

I seem to have missed that this was even being discussed so you are not alone!


And there's no attribution.
It would be nice since the other tile layers have attribution that the osm 
sourced tiles had a similar tag if only to educate users!


--
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-
Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact
L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk
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Re: [OSM-talk] Upgraded map controls

[Maarten Deen]

On 2013-07-20 12:33, Paul Norman wrote:

From: Maarten Deen [mailto:md...@xs4all.nl]
Sent: Saturday, July 20, 2013 2:57 AM
To: talk@openstreetmap.org
Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Upgraded map controls

On 2013-07-20 11:29, Paul Norman wrote:
> From: Andrew Errington [mailto:erringt...@gmail.com]
> Sent: Friday, July 19, 2013 11:42 PM
> To: talk@openstreetmap.org
> Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Upgraded map controls
>
>
> I also didn't see any consultation on this topic.  Just another fait
> accompli.
>
> The pull request and automatic mail to the list went out 11 days ago.
> A test

Which list?

All rails port pull requests and issues automatically goes to the 
rails-dev@


list, which is the list for "discussion of rails port (web site)
development"

If you prefer a format other than email, I believe if you watch the 
repo

(where
the source is) though github you can get all the updates.

> site on the dev server was set up. People commented, changes to the
> new UI were made. This was all done in the open and anyone could
> comment.
>
> Before that I believe there was a posting to the talk list, and before
> that many people brought it up as a feature they'd like to see out of
> samen's presentation.

I haven't seen that posting. Can you point it out for me please?
I must say, I have not heard anything about any discussion about this. 
I

admit, I do not read all lists so it may be on some other list than
talk.

http://lists.osm.org/pipermail/talk/2013-July/067499.html (in reply to
Andrew Errington)


Okay, so you even have to read all threads, even if you don't find them 
insteresting anymore...


Maarten


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Re: [OSM-talk] Upgraded map controls

[Paul Norman]

Whoops - resending to the right talk@ list

> From: Maarten Deen [mailto:md...@xs4all.nl]
> Sent: Saturday, July 20, 2013 2:57 AM
> To: talk@openstreetmap.org
> Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Upgraded map controls
> 
> On 2013-07-20 11:29, Paul Norman wrote:
> > From: Andrew Errington [mailto:erringt...@gmail.com]
> > Sent: Friday, July 19, 2013 11:42 PM
> > To: talk@openstreetmap.org
> > Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Upgraded map controls
> >
> >
> > I also didn't see any consultation on this topic.  Just another fait 
> > accompli.
> >
> > The pull request and automatic mail to the list went out 11 days ago.
> > A test
> 
> Which list?

All rails port pull requests and issues automatically goes to the rails-dev@
list, which is the list for "discussion of rails port (web site)
development"
If you prefer a format other than email, I believe if you watch the repo 
(where the source is) though github you can get all the updates.

> > site on the dev server was set up. People commented, changes to the 
> > new UI were made. This was all done in the open and anyone could 
> > comment.
> >
> > Before that I believe there was a posting to the talk list, and 
> > before that many people brought it up as a feature they'd like to 
> > see out of samen's presentation.
> 
> I haven't seen that posting. Can you point it out for me please?
> I must say, I have not heard anything about any discussion about this. 
> I admit, I do not read all lists so it may be on some other list than 
> talk.

http://lists.osm.org/pipermail/talk/2013-July/067499.html (in reply to
Andrew Errington)

Also of note is two posts later a link to
https://f.cloud.github.com/assets/98601/778982/12bfaae4-e9c1-11e2-8afa-826d2
5c371cb.png 
which outlines additional UI changes that are already under development 
that deal with Andrew's complaints



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Re: [OSM-talk] Upgraded map controls

[Maarten Deen]

On 2013-07-20 13:35, Peter Wendorff wrote:

Am 20.07.2013 11:53, schrieb Maarten Deen:
On 2013-07-20 10:25, Richard Fairhurst wrote:
James Mast wrote:
I'm personally not liking that they now have hidden the
long/short links to the map location behind buttons.
Instead of just one click to get the map location, now
it's two clicks and is really annoying and slowing down
work for me. :(

Ok, I've said this at least three times elsewhere, but for the benefit 
of

those reading here:

The View tab does the same as the Permalink button. Exactly the same.
Always
has. So you can right-click/copy the permalink from there.

It does not do here. When I open the map it says
http://www.openstreetmap.org in the address bar.

I believe the real-soon-now intention is to have the URL continuously
updating as you pan around the map (which is possible with JavaScript
these
days).

Why not implemented that first then. Now we will have to wait if and
when that happens and have an akward way of getting a permalink.
I had to search for what Richard meant with "View Tab", in German it's
"Karte" (Map), but there he's right: clicking on it is in fact the same
as the previous Permanent-Link in the bottom.
Nevertheless one has to know it is or to know what the permanent link
should look like.


Ah yes, I see that now too. I never saw that feature before. That is 
quite handy, even though, as you say, you have to know it is there.


Maarten


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Re: [OSM-talk] Upgraded map controls

[Peter Wendorff]

Am 20.07.2013 11:53, schrieb Maarten Deen:
> On 2013-07-20 10:25, Richard Fairhurst wrote:
>> James Mast wrote:
>> I'm personally not liking that they now have hidden the
>> long/short links to the map location behind buttons.
>> Instead of just one click to get the map location, now
>> it's two clicks and is really annoying and slowing down
>> work for me. :(
>>
>> Ok, I've said this at least three times elsewhere, but for the benefit of
>> those reading here:
>>
>> The View tab does the same as the Permalink button. Exactly the same.
>> Always
>> has. So you can right-click/copy the permalink from there.
> 
> It does not do here. When I open the map it says
> http://www.openstreetmap.org in the address bar.
> 
>> I believe the real-soon-now intention is to have the URL continuously
>> updating as you pan around the map (which is possible with JavaScript
>> these
>> days).
> 
> Why not implemented that first then. Now we will have to wait if and
> when that happens and have an akward way of getting a permalink.
I had to search for what Richard meant with "View Tab", in German it's
"Karte" (Map), but there he's right: clicking on it is in fact the same
as the previous Permanent-Link in the bottom.
Nevertheless one has to know it is or to know what the permanent link
should look like.

In general I hope the Share-Box is far from final yet with respect on
it's content, as even there one has to KNOW that the link behind "Long
Link" and "short link" is the one to copy; especially as they behave
differently on click: Following "Long Link" allows me to copy the link
from the address bar, Following "Short Link" does not allow to copy the
SHORT link from there, as it's directly forwarded to the long link there.
In both cases a box might be better showing the link on the page itself.

But hey - except of the missing zoom-level indication I think it's
definitively a step in the right direction, so thanks to all involved,
and I'm happy to see more and more cool stuff on the osm page in the
future ;)

regards
Peter

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Re: [OSM-talk] Upgraded map controls

[Peter Wendorff]

Am 20.07.2013 01:38, schrieb Dave F.:
> On 20/07/2013 00:22, Toby Murray wrote:
>> You aren't in the #osm IRC channel, are you :)
> 
> No. I can't stand the cliquey, unilateral time zone defined exclusion of
> that. I prefer to discuss with *all* in *all* timezones. A while back a
> decision was made to change something in OSM (apologies, I fail to
> remember what) It turned out it was decided upon in a couple of hours by
> a select few in the European time zone. A poor way to conduct business.
> 
>>
>> Turns out, yes... they are still used. It was actually interesting to
>> watch a coworker who doesn't know much about online maps interacting
>> with osm.org . This was a month or so ago. They
>> actually used the pan controls instead of dragging the map. I was kind
>> of amazed :)
> 
> Right, but it doesn't *have* to be used. In this instance it was lack of
> knowledge. If the controls weren't there they'd find out the better way
> to do it.
Or they would fail to use the feature.
Please think about notebook touchpad users when they don't have a mouse
currently nor a touchscreen, too - there you NEED these controls. (For
me that's sometimes the case, not at my own desk of course)

Regards
Peter

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Re: [OSM-talk] Upgraded map controls

[Andrew Errington]

On Sat, 20 Jul 2013 17:25:27 Richard Fairhurst wrote:
> James Mast wrote:
> > I'm personally not liking that they now have hidden the
> > long/short links to the map location behind buttons.
> > Instead of just one click to get the map location, now
> > it's two clicks and is really annoying and slowing down
> > work for me. :(
>
> Ok, I've said this at least three times elsewhere, but for the benefit of
> those reading here:
>
> The View tab does the same as the Permalink button. Exactly the same.
> Always has. So you can right-click/copy the permalink from there.

That's very cool.  I did not know that.  I probably missed it in the other 
three places you mentioned it too, so I added it to the Wiki in case others 
missed it as well.

Best wishes,

Andrew

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Re: [OSM-talk] Upgraded map controls

[Andrew Errington]

On Sat, 20 Jul 2013 17:39:18 Richard Fairhurst wrote:
> Andrew Errington wrote:
> > Also, my proposal for including
> > a "markerlink" has not been taken up.
>
> Yet. Rome wasn't built in a day.
>
> > I also didn't see any consultation on this topic.  Just another
> > fait accompli.
>
> Hey Andrew, I noticed you did some edits to the map the other day. That's
> fine, but you didn't give everyone a chance to comment on them before doing
> them. I think some of the tagging you used could have been improved, and
> your geometry is a bit off. Also, that road was arguably a highway=track,
> surface=asphalt, but you tagged it as highway=service. Please make sure to
> carry out full consultation before doing any edits. You just did them as a
> fait accompli and I think that's wrong.
>
> ...Exactly.

Not entirely.  I do get your point, but if you are not happy with my work then 
feel free to correct it.  It is a do-ocracy after all.  Except for some 
things.  If it really was a do-ocracy I'd turn on the zoom slider and 
implement a markerlink.

> These things are discussed, and discussed openly. It's just that the forum
> for discussion is not the bearpit that is talk@ (with good reason); that,
> pretty obviously, we don't wait to get the approval of every single OSM
> user before deploying; that we sometimes deploy in-progress work rather
> than waiting for every little detail to be fixed; and that we sometimes
> make changes that some people will never like.

We could at least have had an announcement.

> Because otherwise, the site would never change at all, and we'd still be on
> the Java applet (pre-Potlatch 1) with some barely legible white lines on a
> blurry Landsat background. At the same time as you're posting sceptically
> on this list, SteveC is moaning on Twitter about it being too little, too
> late (bit odd that a founding father spends so much time publicly slagging
> off "his" project, but there you go, everyone loves him for it). You simply
> can't keep everyone happy.
>
> OSM works because we trust that talented people will do amazing things. OSM
> trusts you, as a talented mapper, to make good edits in your area. OSM
> trusts the talented developers and sysadmins to do good things with the
> site and the hardware. Some things will happen which are not 100% to your
> liking. Learn to deal with it.

Don't get me wrong, I am very happy with how OSM is progressing, and I realise 
that such a large project must necessarily move with fits and starts, but I 
reserve the right to state my opinion, positively or negatively.

> Because the alternative is that, every time you make an edit, Andrew, you
> get 30 complaining mails saying "well I'd have done it differently, you
> should have asked me first". The effect is that you give up editing.
> Believe me: I have some pretty obvious first-hand experience of this.

I'd be very happy if someone who knows better would come along and tell me the 
best way to do it.  Until then I'll continue as best I can.

Best wishes,

Andrew

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Re: [OSM-talk] Upgraded map controls

[Iván Sánchez Ortega]

On Sábado, 20 de julio de 2013 10:55:58 Mikel Maron escribió:
> I miss the white lines on blurry Landsat background. So simple and elegant.
> Can someone set that up and make it an option in the layer switcher? ;) 

Those were the times :-D

-- 
--
Iván Sánchez Ortega  

Un ordenador no es un televisor ni un microondas, es una herramienta compleja.

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Re: [OSM-talk] Upgraded map controls

[Maarten Deen]

On 2013-07-20 11:29, Paul Norman wrote:

From: Andrew Errington [mailto:erringt...@gmail.com]
Sent: Friday, July 19, 2013 11:42 PM
To: talk@openstreetmap.org
Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Upgraded map controls


I also didn't see any consultation on this topic.  Just another fait
accompli.

The pull request and automatic mail to the list went out 11 days ago. A 
test


Which list?

site on the dev server was set up. People commented, changes to the new 
UI

were made. This was all done in the open and anyone could comment.

Before that I believe there was a posting to the talk list, and before 
that
many people brought it up as a feature they'd like to see out of 
samen's

presentation.


I haven't seen that posting. Can you point it out for me please?
I must say, I have not heard anything about any discussion about this. I 
admit, I do not read all lists so it may be on some other list than 
talk.


Regards,
Maarten

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Re: [OSM-talk] Upgraded map controls

[Mikel Maron]

>  the map moves to the right when the > sidebar closes after you click on the 
>link, giving you a different map 
> than you were looking at.

> It is not an improvement.

Sounds more like a simple bug report, and something simple to fix,
 than a reason for a flat condemnation.

Perspective!

* Mikel Maron * +14152835207 @mikel s:mikelmaron


>
> From: Maarten Deen 
>To: talk@openstreetmap.org 
>Sent: Saturday, July 20, 2013 10:49 AM
>Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Upgraded map controls
> 
>
>On 2013-07-20 08:16, James Mast wrote:
>> I'm personally not liking that they now have hidden the long/short
>> links to the map location behind buttons. Instead of just one click to
>> get the map location, now it's two clicks and is really annoying and
>> slowing down work for me. :(
>
>I agree to that. What's more: the map moves to the right when the 
>sidebar closes after you click on the link, giving you a different map 
>than you were looking at.
>It is not an improvement.
>
>Maarten
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Upgraded map controls

[Maarten Deen]

On 2013-07-20 10:25, Richard Fairhurst wrote:

James Mast wrote:
I'm personally not liking that they now have hidden the
long/short links to the map location behind buttons.
Instead of just one click to get the map location, now
it's two clicks and is really annoying and slowing down
work for me. :(

Ok, I've said this at least three times elsewhere, but for the benefit 
of

those reading here:

The View tab does the same as the Permalink button. Exactly the same. 
Always

has. So you can right-click/copy the permalink from there.


It does not do here. When I open the map it says 
http://www.openstreetmap.org in the address bar.



I believe the real-soon-now intention is to have the URL continuously
updating as you pan around the map (which is possible with JavaScript 
these

days).


Why not implemented that first then. Now we will have to wait if and 
when that happens and have an akward way of getting a permalink.


Regards,
Maarten


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Re: [OSM-talk] Upgraded map controls

[Maarten Deen]

On 2013-07-20 08:16, James Mast wrote:

I'm personally not liking that they now have hidden the long/short
links to the map location behind buttons. Instead of just one click to
get the map location, now it's two clicks and is really annoying and
slowing down work for me. :(


I agree to that. What's more: the map moves to the right when the 
sidebar closes after you click on the link, giving you a different map 
than you were looking at.

It is not an improvement.

Maarten

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Re: [OSM-talk] Upgraded map controls

[Paul Norman]

> From: Andrew Errington [mailto:erringt...@gmail.com]
> Sent: Friday, July 19, 2013 11:42 PM
> To: talk@openstreetmap.org
> Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Upgraded map controls
> 
> 
> I also didn't see any consultation on this topic.  Just another fait
> accompli.

The pull request and automatic mail to the list went out 11 days ago. A test
site on the dev server was set up. People commented, changes to the new UI
were made. This was all done in the open and anyone could comment.

Before that I believe there was a posting to the talk list, and before that
many people brought it up as a feature they'd like to see out of samen's
presentation.

> And there's no attribution.

Can we finally put this to rest? I assume you mean there's no text in the
bottom right hand corner stating (C) OpenStreetMap, because there definitely
is attribution. There's a great big OpenStreetMap text and logo on the front
page, and a Copyright & License link prominently in the menu. On osm.org
we're not only required to attribute on the front page, but virtually every
other page as well has OSM data, often not on a map. For example, there's
more than just the map on
http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/node/250379363/history.

Most websites will be using OSM data for a map in a viewbox. If that's all
you're doing with OSM data then attributing in the corner of the viewport
makes sense. OSM.org does a lot more with OSM data then that, and attributes
in a way that makes sense for how it uses it. In any case, it's largely
unrelated to the layer switcher.


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Re: [OSM-talk] Upgraded map controls

[Mikel Maron]

I miss the white lines on blurry Landsat background. So simple and elegant. Can 
someone set that up and make it an option in the layer switcher? ;)
 
* Mikel Maron * +14152835207 @mikel s:mikelmaron


>
> From: Richard Fairhurst 
>To: talk@openstreetmap.org 
>Sent: Saturday, July 20, 2013 9:39 AM
>Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Upgraded map controls
> 
>
>Andrew Errington wrote:
>> Also, my proposal for including 
>> a "markerlink" has not been taken up.
>
>Yet. Rome wasn't built in a day. 
>
>> I also didn't see any consultation on this topic.  Just another 
>> fait accompli.
>
>Hey Andrew, I noticed you did some edits to the map the other day. That's
>fine, but you didn't give everyone a chance to comment on them before doing
>them. I think some of the tagging you used could have been improved, and
>your geometry is a bit off. Also, that road was arguably a highway=track,
>surface=asphalt, but you tagged it as highway=service. Please make sure to
>carry out full consultation before doing any edits. You just did them as a
>fait accompli and I think that's wrong.
>
>...Exactly.
>
>These things are discussed, and discussed openly. It's just that the forum
>for discussion is not the bearpit that is talk@ (with good reason); that,
>pretty obviously, we don't wait to get the approval of every single OSM user
>before deploying; that we sometimes deploy in-progress work rather than
>waiting for every little detail to be fixed; and that we sometimes make
>changes that some people will never like.
>
>Because otherwise, the site would never change at all, and we'd still be on
>the Java applet (pre-Potlatch 1) with some barely legible white lines on a
>blurry Landsat background. At the same time as you're posting sceptically on
>this list, SteveC is moaning on Twitter about it being too little, too late
>(bit odd that a founding father spends so much time publicly slagging off
>"his" project, but there you go, everyone loves him for it). You simply
>can't keep everyone happy.
>
>OSM works because we trust that talented people will do amazing things. OSM
>trusts you, as a talented mapper, to make good edits in your area. OSM
>trusts the talented developers and sysadmins to do good things with the site
>and the hardware. Some things will happen which are not 100% to your liking.
>Learn to deal with it.
>
>Because the alternative is that, every time you make an edit, Andrew, you
>get 30 complaining mails saying "well I'd have done it differently, you
>should have asked me first". The effect is that you give up editing. Believe
>me: I have some pretty obvious first-hand experience of this.
>
>cheers
>Richard
>
>
>
>
>
>--
>View this message in context: 
>http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/Upgraded-map-controls-tp5770491p5770535.html
>Sent from the General Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
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>
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Upgraded map controls

[Richard Fairhurst]

Andrew Errington wrote:
> Also, my proposal for including 
> a "markerlink" has not been taken up.

Yet. Rome wasn't built in a day. 

> I also didn't see any consultation on this topic.  Just another 
> fait accompli.

Hey Andrew, I noticed you did some edits to the map the other day. That's
fine, but you didn't give everyone a chance to comment on them before doing
them. I think some of the tagging you used could have been improved, and
your geometry is a bit off. Also, that road was arguably a highway=track,
surface=asphalt, but you tagged it as highway=service. Please make sure to
carry out full consultation before doing any edits. You just did them as a
fait accompli and I think that's wrong.

...Exactly.

These things are discussed, and discussed openly. It's just that the forum
for discussion is not the bearpit that is talk@ (with good reason); that,
pretty obviously, we don't wait to get the approval of every single OSM user
before deploying; that we sometimes deploy in-progress work rather than
waiting for every little detail to be fixed; and that we sometimes make
changes that some people will never like.

Because otherwise, the site would never change at all, and we'd still be on
the Java applet (pre-Potlatch 1) with some barely legible white lines on a
blurry Landsat background. At the same time as you're posting sceptically on
this list, SteveC is moaning on Twitter about it being too little, too late
(bit odd that a founding father spends so much time publicly slagging off
"his" project, but there you go, everyone loves him for it). You simply
can't keep everyone happy.

OSM works because we trust that talented people will do amazing things. OSM
trusts you, as a talented mapper, to make good edits in your area. OSM
trusts the talented developers and sysadmins to do good things with the site
and the hardware. Some things will happen which are not 100% to your liking.
Learn to deal with it.

Because the alternative is that, every time you make an edit, Andrew, you
get 30 complaining mails saying "well I'd have done it differently, you
should have asked me first". The effect is that you give up editing. Believe
me: I have some pretty obvious first-hand experience of this.

cheers
Richard





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Re: [OSM-talk] Upgraded map controls

[Richard Fairhurst]

James Mast wrote:
> I'm personally not liking that they now have hidden the 
> long/short links to the map location behind buttons.  
> Instead of just one click to get the map location, now 
> it's two clicks and is really annoying and slowing down 
> work for me. :(

Ok, I've said this at least three times elsewhere, but for the benefit of
those reading here:

The View tab does the same as the Permalink button. Exactly the same. Always
has. So you can right-click/copy the permalink from there.

I believe the real-soon-now intention is to have the URL continuously
updating as you pan around the map (which is possible with JavaScript these
days).

cheers
Richard





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Re: [OSM-talk] Upgraded map controls

[Vincent Pottier]

Le 20/07/2013 01:07, Dave F. a écrit :

Hi

Does anybody use the +/- zoom controls? I thought it was all mouse 
wheels/pad gestures & finger gestures to zoom in & out.


Are they needed any more?

Dave F.

Oh, yes, they are.
I use them to see the wide region around a spot, e.g. find the big city 
near it, without changing the setting of the map, without loosing the spot.

Just click several + and -.
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Re: [OSM-talk] Upgraded map controls

[Andrew Errington]

On Sat, 20 Jul 2013 15:16:10 James Mast wrote:
> I'm personally not liking that they now have hidden the long/short links to
> the map location behind buttons.  Instead of just one click to get the map
> location, now it's two clicks and is really annoying and slowing down work
> for me. :(
>
> -James

I miss the zoom slider, and I also agree that permalink should remain "on 
top", accessible with one click.  Also, my proposal for including 
a "markerlink" has not been taken up.

I also didn't see any consultation on this topic.  Just another fait accompli.

And there's no attribution.

Best wishes,

Andrew

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Re: [OSM-talk] Upgraded map controls

[James Mast]

I'm personally not liking that they now have hidden the long/short links to the 
map location behind buttons.  Instead of just one click to get the map 
location, now it's two clicks and is really annoying and slowing down work for 
me. :(
 
-James
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Re: [OSM-talk] Upgraded map controls

[Tobias Knerr]

On 20.07.2013 01:07, Dave F. wrote:
> Does anybody use the +/- zoom controls? I thought it was all mouse
> wheels/pad gestures & finger gestures to zoom in & out.

I don't use these controls if I can avoid it, but sometimes I'm stuck
with them. Examples include browser compatibility issues (Firefox
Mobile, for example, used to scale the entire page instead of zooming
the map, but that has thankfully been fixed now) and old phones with no
multi-touch.

Every now and then I also find myself in front of laptops with no
obvious mousewheel equivalent and simply use the map controls instead of
trying all sorts of key combos.

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Re: [OSM-talk] Upgraded map controls

[Dave F.]

On 20/07/2013 00:22, Toby Murray wrote:

You aren't in the #osm IRC channel, are you :)


No. I can't stand the cliquey, unilateral time zone defined exclusion of 
that. I prefer to discuss with *all* in *all* timezones. A while back a 
decision was made to change something in OSM (apologies, I fail to 
remember what) It turned out it was decided upon in a couple of hours by 
a select few in the European time zone. A poor way to conduct business.




Turns out, yes... they are still used. It was actually interesting to 
watch a coworker who doesn't know much about online maps interacting 
with osm.org . This was a month or so ago. They 
actually used the pan controls instead of dragging the map. I was kind 
of amazed :)


Right, but it doesn't *have* to be used. In this instance it was lack of 
knowledge. If the controls weren't there they'd find out the better way 
to do it.




Toby



On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 6:07 PM, Dave F. > wrote:


Hi

Does anybody use the +/- zoom controls? I thought it was all mouse
wheels/pad gestures & finger gestures to zoom in & out.

Are they needed any more?

Dave F.

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Re: [OSM-talk] Upgraded map controls

[Toby Murray]

You aren't in the #osm IRC channel, are you :)

Turns out, yes... they are still used. It was actually interesting to watch
a coworker who doesn't know much about online maps interacting with osm.org.
This was a month or so ago. They actually used the pan controls instead of
dragging the map. I was kind of amazed :)

Toby



On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 6:07 PM, Dave F.  wrote:

> Hi
>
> Does anybody use the +/- zoom controls? I thought it was all mouse
> wheels/pad gestures & finger gestures to zoom in & out.
>
> Are they needed any more?
>
> Dave F.
>
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>
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