Re: [OSM-talk] Label language on the Default stylesheet

[Yuri Astrakhan]

>
> And vice versa: I always wonder how usable a map in Latin alphabet is for
> Chinese or Russian speakers.


Cannot speak for Chinese, but in Russia, Latin alphabet was taught at the
very early age in school. I think that drawing a map with local names in
Latin font should not cause too many problems.
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Re: [OSM-talk] Label language on the Default stylesheet

[Frederik Ramm]

Hi,

On 24.09.2017 23:01, Matthijs Melissen wrote:
> From an ideologic viewpoint, I am very much in favour of not giving
> preferential treatment to any particular language. Using the local
> language seems fair in this respect. On the other hand, from a
> pragmatic point of view I can also see that using English (in
> addition) would significantly increase the usefulness of the map to
> many people.

If you want to go down this route, definitely talk to Sven Geggus, maker
of the openstreetmap.de map style
(https://www.openstreetmap.de/karte.html) which not only displays local
an German names but also makes an effort to automatically transliterate
local names to the Latin alphabet where none is explicitly tagged. You'd
want to implement something similar.

Also note how very letter-heavy such maps can become (look at the names
of the Polish voivodeships which are *already* long and now they're
double - but I see you're only suggesting city and country names so
perhaps you have already seen that the admin 4 entities can be difficult).

But speaking of pragmatism - if I need to decipher something in China I
just use the layer switcher to show Andy's OpenCycleMap and that's good
enough for me.

> Note: making the map available in multiple language versions is
> something we like to do in the future, however, this requires quite
> significant technical changes. Therefore, this is out of scope for
> now.

I'd invest the available brainpower in steps needed to achieve this
goal, even if it's a year or two in the future. Whatever changes you
will be making then will not come without a downside. Saying "we know
these changes do have some issues but they will enable us to finally
display the map in any language you want" will help you sweeten the deal
then.

Also, personally I'm in a similar situation to Maarten. I'm from Germany
and I don't want a map with all German or all English names; ideally I
want a map with local names except where I can't read them ;)

Bye
Frederik

-- 
Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail frede...@remote.org  ##  N49°00'09" E008°23'33"

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Re: [OSM-talk] Label language on the Default stylesheet

[Christoph Hormann]

On Monday 25 September 2017, Frederik Ramm wrote:
>
> Also, personally I'm in a similar situation to Maarten. I'm from
> Germany and I don't want a map with all German or all English names;
> ideally I want a map with local names except where I can't read them
> ;)

While i understand this view and also see you are saying this with a bit 
of irony it seriously saddens me that apparently a large fraction of 
the OSM community actually thinks this way and wants the OSMF to invest 
ressources in a map that is well readable for them rather than a map 
that represents and communicates the diversity of the global OSM 
community.

I would want the map to display in a way that is well readable and gives 
good feedback to the *local mappers* everywhere on earth and that gives 
me an impression of the local cultural and geographic particularities 
of the area irrespective of if i can read the names or not.  I would 
want this by default even if technology also offered a 'filter bubble' 
version that shows me the map as i allegedly would want it to see where 
every place on earth looks like my home town.

I also want to cite from the current goals of OSM-Carto:

https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/blob/master/CARTOGRAPHY.md

"Diversity - The style should represent the diversity of the OSM 
community and geography in general. The most obvious element to serve 
this goal is showing the local names everywhere on earth in their 
respective scripts. This goal however goes beyond labels. Both physical 
and cultural geography differs a lot globally and the aim is to 
represent this variety with equal determination - well mapped areas are 
not supposed to have more weight here than less mapped parts of the 
world. This also means the target map user is the potential global map 
user and no special consideration is given to the current geographic 
distribution of actual map use."

Changing that would mean aiming the map more at the same target as 
commercial map providers, i.e. serving the economically important and 
influential map user groups, giving them what market research tells you 
they want and giving up on the core of what makes the OSM standard 
style unique and forms a significant part of what attracts people to 
OSM.

-- 
Christoph Hormann
http://www.imagico.de/

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Re: [OSM-talk] Label language on the Default stylesheet

[Frederik Ramm]

Christoph,

On 25.09.2017 10:55, Christoph Hormann wrote:
>> Also, personally I'm in a similar situation to Maarten. I'm from
>> Germany and I don't want a map with all German or all English names;
>> ideally I want a map with local names except where I can't read them
>> ;)
> 
> While i understand this view and also see you are saying this with a bit 
> of irony it seriously saddens me that apparently a large fraction of 
> the OSM community actually thinks this way and wants the OSMF to invest 
> ressources in a map that is well readable for them rather than a map 
> that represents and communicates the diversity of the global OSM 
> community.

Oh, in case I wasn't clear - what I said above was not with irony;
indeed, for my personal use, I want a map that shows me names I can
read. Which, I assume, everyone does. But I didn't want to imply that
the OSM web site should be doing that (especially since I'm not its only
 user); I think the OSM web site should continue to use local names
throughout while we technically have to choose a name, and somewhere
down the line the web site should give users a choice which names they
would like to see.

I share your "diversity" viewpoint, although one must also see that by
only displaying the "name", some people in regions with non-latin script
but strong western cultural influence could feel forced to include a
Latin rendering of the name in their "name" tags or even use Latin
renderings altogether for "name". A future option of "display the name
you like" will also free these mappers to map the correct local names.

Bye
Frederik


-- 
Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail frede...@remote.org  ##  N49°00'09" E008°23'33"

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Re: [OSM-talk] Label language on the Default stylesheet

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2017-09-25 9:37 GMT+02:00 Frederik Ramm :

> ideally I
> want a map with local names except where I can't read them ;)
>
>
>

+1.

And ideally I'd want a map that not only shows cities or countries with
transliterated names where needed, but everything (especially POIs like
historical things, museums, places of worship, mountains, rivers, etc.
which are famous enough to have a name in German or English), while for
roads, public transport etc. it is also nice to be able to see the original
name (because you can recognize it on signs, or show it to local people
when asking about them, etc.).

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [OSM-talk] Label language on the Default stylesheet

[Christoph Hormann]

On Monday 25 September 2017, Frederik Ramm wrote:
>
> Oh, in case I wasn't clear - what I said above was not with irony;
> indeed, for my personal use, I want a map that shows me names I can
> read. Which, I assume, everyone does.

Yes, of course - we need to clearly differentiate between 'i want a map 
that...' and 'i want the standard OSM map to...'.

I also do need a map with names i can read everywhere on earth in many 
cases but as you already said this need is mostly quite well served by 
both commercial and non-commercial styles from local communities (like 
the German OSM style).

> I share your "diversity" viewpoint, although one must also see that
> by only displaying the "name", some people in regions with non-latin
> script but strong western cultural influence could feel forced to
> include a Latin rendering of the name in their "name" tags or even
> use Latin renderings altogether for "name". A future option of
> "display the name you like" will also free these mappers to map the
> correct local names.

Yes, the problem that mappers need to decide on a single name for 'the 
local name' is definitely an issue, in particular in regions that are 
largely multilingual (i.e. where several language have a strong base 
and there is no clear primary language) but also if locals specifically 
want to serve outside interests.  The way this is currently often 
solved by having several names in the name tag is not satisfying.

-- 
Christoph Hormann
http://www.imagico.de/

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Re: [OSM-talk] Label language on the Default stylesheet

[Oleksiy Muzalyev]

On 9/24/2017 11:01 PM, Matthijs Melissen wrote:

[...]For example, we have a label 北京市 for Beijing, a label موريتانيا for
Mauritania, and a label Magyarország for Hungary.

The openstreetmap-carto team quite frequently receives requests to
(additionally) display labels in English (or in any case the
Latin-alphabet). [...]


Why not use the Latin language itself for an additional label to 
non-Latin alphabet titles? It is readily available in Google translator 
and also in Wikipedia. Here are these titles in Latin:


https://la.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pechinum

https://la.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungaria

https://la.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mauritania

Best regards,

Oleksiy


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Re: [OSM-talk] Label language on the Default stylesheet

[James]

I think Latin as default is disrespectful to areas like Japan which might
not be able to read Latin letters as they have kana for non-japanese words.
It's a bit biased to ask if Latin should be the default on a Latin based
list(letters not language).I'm sure there would be a different opinion if
you asked on talk-jp or any other list(non-latin)

Ideally it should be a layer per language: English everywhere, Japanese
everywhere, Arabic everywhere, etc etc

On Sep 25, 2017 6:02 AM, "Oleksiy Muzalyev" 
wrote:

> On 9/24/2017 11:01 PM, Matthijs Melissen wrote:
>
>> [...]For example, we have a label 北京市 for Beijing, a label موريتانيا for
>> Mauritania, and a label Magyarország for Hungary.
>>
>> The openstreetmap-carto team quite frequently receives requests to
>> (additionally) display labels in English (or in any case the
>> Latin-alphabet). [...]
>>
>
> Why not use the Latin language itself for an additional label to non-Latin
> alphabet titles? It is readily available in Google translator and also in
> Wikipedia. Here are these titles in Latin:
>
> https://la.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pechinum
>
> https://la.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungaria
>
> https://la.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mauritania
>
> Best regards,
>
> Oleksiy
>
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Label language on the Default stylesheet

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

For the default map having local names everywhere is a strong statement.
The current status is fine (where scripts for the language are supported by
the fonts used in rendering).

Having transliterated / localized versions should only be an optional, if
ressources allow for it. Mixed versions (showing 2 name versions of the
same thing, eg. in different script) aren't a perfect solution either,
because they tend to clutter the map with things you don't need (one of the
2 displayed versions is always superfluous). This is particularly evident
in areas like China, where the local names are usually 2-3 characters
(signs) and the transliterated ones are often 5-10 times as much (e.g.
administrative divisions).

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [OSM-talk] Label language on the Default stylesheet

[Jo]

1000 - 7000 extra layers? That's give or take the number of languages in
existence... depending on who you ask, but even adding 500 extra layers is
not a practical endeavour.

2017-09-25 12:15 GMT+02:00 James :

> I think Latin as default is disrespectful to areas like Japan which might
> not be able to read Latin letters as they have kana for non-japanese words.
> It's a bit biased to ask if Latin should be the default on a Latin based
> list(letters not language).I'm sure there would be a different opinion if
> you asked on talk-jp or any other list(non-latin)
>
> Ideally it should be a layer per language: English everywhere, Japanese
> everywhere, Arabic everywhere, etc etc
>
> On Sep 25, 2017 6:02 AM, "Oleksiy Muzalyev" 
> wrote:
>
>> On 9/24/2017 11:01 PM, Matthijs Melissen wrote:
>>
>>> [...]For example, we have a label 北京市 for Beijing, a label موريتانيا for
>>> Mauritania, and a label Magyarország for Hungary.
>>>
>>> The openstreetmap-carto team quite frequently receives requests to
>>> (additionally) display labels in English (or in any case the
>>> Latin-alphabet). [...]
>>>
>>
>> Why not use the Latin language itself for an additional label to
>> non-Latin alphabet titles? It is readily available in Google translator and
>> also in Wikipedia. Here are these titles in Latin:
>>
>> https://la.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pechinum
>>
>> https://la.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungaria
>>
>> https://la.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mauritania
>>
>> Best regards,
>>
>> Oleksiy
>>
>>
>> ___
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>>
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Label language on the Default stylesheet

[Oleksiy Muzalyev]

I talked at a conference to a man from UK who, as I understood, 
participates in the hardware work on the OSM servers. I was told that 
multiple layers require too much additional work to be handled by 
volunteers and also additional hardware&software. That it is not 
feasible with the current state of technology.


The intent is not to replace the titles in Japanese, but to add 
additional labels in smaller font in the Latin alphabet. The Latin 
language itself has been for centuries the language of science, and it 
remains the language of scientific classification. For example, Isaac 
Newton wrote his breakthrough books in Latin.


So why not using it for geographical classification too? As soon as 
people see that the Latin version appears on the map as an additional 
label, they will start adding tags in this language. And there will be 
no doubts that a preference is given to a certain country or group of 
countries.


Best regards,
Oleksiy

On 9/25/2017 12:15 PM, James wrote:
I think Latin as default is disrespectful to areas like Japan which 
might not be able to read Latin letters as they have kana for 
non-japanese words. It's a bit biased to ask if Latin should be the 
default on a Latin based list(letters not language).I'm sure there 
would be a different opinion if you asked on talk-jp or any other 
list(non-latin)


Ideally it should be a layer per language: English everywhere, 
Japanese everywhere, Arabic everywhere, etc etc


On Sep 25, 2017 6:02 AM, "Oleksiy Muzalyev" 
mailto:oleksiy.muzal...@bluewin.ch>> wrote:


On 9/24/2017 11:01 PM, Matthijs Melissen wrote:

[...]For example, we have a label 北京市 for Beijing, a label
موريتانيا for
Mauritania, and a label Magyarország for Hungary.

The openstreetmap-carto team quite frequently receives requests to
(additionally) display labels in English (or in any case the
Latin-alphabet). [...]


Why not use the Latin language itself for an additional label to
non-Latin alphabet titles? It is readily available in Google
translator and also in Wikipedia. Here are these titles in Latin:

https://la.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pechinum


https://la.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungaria


https://la.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mauritania


Best regards,

Oleksiy


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Re: [OSM-talk] Label language on the Default stylesheet

[James]

That's why you could have text rendered via JavaScript and not in the JPG
itself

On Sep 25, 2017 6:37 AM, "Jo"  wrote:

> 1000 - 7000 extra layers? That's give or take the number of languages in
> existence... depending on who you ask, but even adding 500 extra layers is
> not a practical endeavour.
>
> 2017-09-25 12:15 GMT+02:00 James :
>
>> I think Latin as default is disrespectful to areas like Japan which might
>> not be able to read Latin letters as they have kana for non-japanese words.
>> It's a bit biased to ask if Latin should be the default on a Latin based
>> list(letters not language).I'm sure there would be a different opinion if
>> you asked on talk-jp or any other list(non-latin)
>>
>> Ideally it should be a layer per language: English everywhere, Japanese
>> everywhere, Arabic everywhere, etc etc
>>
>> On Sep 25, 2017 6:02 AM, "Oleksiy Muzalyev" 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 9/24/2017 11:01 PM, Matthijs Melissen wrote:
>>>
 [...]For example, we have a label 北京市 for Beijing, a label موريتانيا for
 Mauritania, and a label Magyarország for Hungary.

 The openstreetmap-carto team quite frequently receives requests to
 (additionally) display labels in English (or in any case the
 Latin-alphabet). [...]

>>>
>>> Why not use the Latin language itself for an additional label to
>>> non-Latin alphabet titles? It is readily available in Google translator and
>>> also in Wikipedia. Here are these titles in Latin:
>>>
>>> https://la.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pechinum
>>>
>>> https://la.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungaria
>>>
>>> https://la.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mauritania
>>>
>>> Best regards,
>>>
>>> Oleksiy
>>>
>>>
>>> ___
>>> talk mailing list
>>> talk@openstreetmap.org
>>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>>>
>>
>> ___
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>> talk@openstreetmap.org
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>>
>>
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Label language on the Default stylesheet

[Jo]

Vector based rendering is just around the corner, I keep hearing.

2017-09-25 12:39 GMT+02:00 James :

> That's why you could have text rendered via JavaScript and not in the JPG
> itself
>
> On Sep 25, 2017 6:37 AM, "Jo"  wrote:
>
>> 1000 - 7000 extra layers? That's give or take the number of languages in
>> existence... depending on who you ask, but even adding 500 extra layers is
>> not a practical endeavour.
>>
>> 2017-09-25 12:15 GMT+02:00 James :
>>
>>> I think Latin as default is disrespectful to areas like Japan which
>>> might not be able to read Latin letters as they have kana for non-japanese
>>> words. It's a bit biased to ask if Latin should be the default on a Latin
>>> based list(letters not language).I'm sure there would be a different
>>> opinion if you asked on talk-jp or any other list(non-latin)
>>>
>>> Ideally it should be a layer per language: English everywhere, Japanese
>>> everywhere, Arabic everywhere, etc etc
>>>
>>> On Sep 25, 2017 6:02 AM, "Oleksiy Muzalyev" 
>>> wrote:
>>>
 On 9/24/2017 11:01 PM, Matthijs Melissen wrote:

> [...]For example, we have a label 北京市 for Beijing, a label موريتانيا
> for
> Mauritania, and a label Magyarország for Hungary.
>
> The openstreetmap-carto team quite frequently receives requests to
> (additionally) display labels in English (or in any case the
> Latin-alphabet). [...]
>

 Why not use the Latin language itself for an additional label to
 non-Latin alphabet titles? It is readily available in Google translator and
 also in Wikipedia. Here are these titles in Latin:

 https://la.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pechinum

 https://la.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungaria

 https://la.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mauritania

 Best regards,

 Oleksiy


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 talk@openstreetmap.org
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>>>
>>> ___
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>>>
>>>
>>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Label language on the Default stylesheet

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2017-09-25 12:37 GMT+02:00 Jo :

> 1000 - 7000 extra layers? That's give or take the number of languages in
> existence... depending on who you ask, but even adding 500 extra layers is
> not a practical endeavour.
>


maybe there are that many languages in the world, but there isn't
information in all of these languages available in OSM. Anyway, even with
much fewer languages this scale nicely with raster tiles for every
language, but it would work with vector tiles (rendered on the client) or
with a mixture of both (vector tiles only for the names, or some names like
places and countries).

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [OSM-talk] Label language on the Default stylesheet

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2017-09-25 12:39 GMT+02:00 Oleksiy Muzalyev :

> The Latin language itself has been for centuries the language of science,
> and it remains the language of scientific classification. For example,
> Isaac Newton wrote his breakthrough books in Latin.
>


Ancient Greek has been for centuries the language of science and has
contributed many words to the scientific language of many modern languages,
which are still in use today.  And similarly to using latin there will be
no doubt about which preference is given (European culture). ;-)


Cheers,
Martin


PS: Seriously, choosing Latin rather than English has no advantage besides
adding an elitarian touch on top of the Europe-centricity.
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Re: [OSM-talk] Label language on the Default stylesheet

[Warin]

On 25-Sep-17 07:49 PM, Christoph Hormann wrote:

On Monday 25 September 2017, Frederik Ramm wrote:

Oh, in case I wasn't clear - what I said above was not with irony;
indeed, for my personal use, I want a map that shows me names I can
read. Which, I assume, everyone does.

Yes, of course - we need to clearly differentiate between 'i want a map
that...' and 'i want the standard OSM map to...'.

I also do need a map with names i can read everywhere on earth in many
cases but as you already said this need is mostly quite well served by
both commercial and non-commercial styles from local communities (like
the German OSM style).


I share your "diversity" viewpoint, although one must also see that
by only displaying the "name", some people in regions with non-latin
script but strong western cultural influence could feel forced to
include a Latin rendering of the name in their "name" tags or even
use Latin renderings altogether for "name". A future option of
"display the name you like" will also free these mappers to map the
correct local names.

Yes, the problem that mappers need to decide on a single name for 'the
local name' is definitely an issue, in particular in regions that are
largely multilingual (i.e. where several language have a strong base
and there is no clear primary language) but also if locals specifically
want to serve outside interests.  The way this is currently often
solved by having several names in the name tag is not satisfying.


Case: Papua New Guinea

Number of Local Languages: 800

Official Language: English

The 'local name' may well not match the 'English language' name - leading to 
OSMose error indications.
Of course the local languages overlap area wise, things change names depending 
on who you might talk to and where...

So at the moment I'm inclined to tag thus;

name and name:en as the same ... not nice but officially that is what it is.
BUT use loc_name as the local language name ...
The boundary between 2 languages is fuzzy and changes with time as villages 
move from time to time too.

There is very high probability that the local language has no official 
abbreviated code like en, ru etc. making that less than helpful.


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Re: [OSM-talk] Label language on the Default stylesheet

[Maarten Deen]

Of course this is impractical in the UI in the current way of selecting 
layers (where each layer has its own check box to enable it), I was more 
thinking in the line of having a dropdown box for all language overlays. 
No idea if this is currently possible in openlayers.


Maarten


On 2017-09-25 12:37, Jo wrote:

1000 - 7000 extra layers? That's give or take the number of languages
in existence... depending on who you ask, but even adding 500 extra
layers is not a practical endeavour.

2017-09-25 12:15 GMT+02:00 James :


I think Latin as default is disrespectful to areas like Japan which
might not be able to read Latin letters as they have kana for
non-japanese words. It's a bit biased to ask if Latin should be the
default on a Latin based list(letters not language).I'm sure there
would be a different opinion if you asked on talk-jp or any other
list(non-latin)

Ideally it should be a layer per language: English everywhere,
Japanese everywhere, Arabic everywhere, etc etc

On Sep 25, 2017 6:02 AM, "Oleksiy Muzalyev"
 wrote:
On 9/24/2017 11:01 PM, Matthijs Melissen wrote:
[...]For example, we have a label 北京市 for Beijing, a label
موريتانيا for
Mauritania, and a label Magyarország for Hungary.

The openstreetmap-carto team quite frequently receives requests to
(additionally) display labels in English (or in any case the
Latin-alphabet). [...]

Why not use the Latin language itself for an additional label to
non-Latin alphabet titles? It is readily available in Google
translator and also in Wikipedia. Here are these titles in Latin:

https://la.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pechinum [1]

https://la.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungaria [2]

https://la.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mauritania [3]

Best regards,

Oleksiy

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Links:
--
[1] https://la.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pechinum
[2] https://la.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungaria
[3] https://la.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mauritania
[4] https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
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Re: [OSM-talk] Label language on the Default stylesheet

[Richard Fairhurst]

Frederik Ramm wrote:
> I'd invest the available brainpower in steps needed to achieve 
> this goal, even if it's a year or two in the future.

Which means vector tiles... which we should be looking at anyway.

But that needs to be a separate project really, rather than a facet of
openstreetmap-carto.

Richard



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Re: [OSM-talk] Label language on the Default stylesheet

[Christoph Hormann]

On Monday 25 September 2017, Richard Fairhurst wrote:
> > I'd invest the available brainpower in steps needed to achieve
> > this goal, even if it's a year or two in the future.
>
> Which means vector tiles... which we should be looking at anyway.
>
> But that needs to be a separate project really, rather than a facet
> of openstreetmap-carto.

Note however rendering OSM-Carto without labels and producing a separate 
client side rendered labeling would be a possible approach.

Vector tiles is a buzzword occasionally suggested as a solution to any 
and all problems in map rendering but so far i have not seen any 
practical proposal for a client rendered vector tiles concept that 
would be able to serve the mapper feedback purposes of the current OSM 
standard style.  Rory's port of OSM-Carto to vector tiles is not 
suitable for client side rendering.

-- 
Christoph Hormann
http://www.imagico.de/

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Re: [OSM-talk] Label language on the Default stylesheet

[Matthijs Melissen]

On 25 September 2017 at 13:21, Richard Fairhurst  wrote:
> Frederik Ramm wrote:
>> I'd invest the available brainpower in steps needed to achieve
>> this goal, even if it's a year or two in the future.
>
> Which means vector tiles... which we should be looking at anyway.
>
> But that needs to be a separate project really, rather than a facet of
> openstreetmap-carto.

Yes, to re-iterate: my question is about things we can do now. Vector
tiles are on the horizon, but are likely to take a year or more from
now. Changing some of the labels is something we could do with one
line of code and roll out tomorrow, if we wanted to.

-- Matthijs

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Re: [OSM-talk] Label language on the Default stylesheet

[Frederik Ramm]

Hi,

On 25.09.2017 13:48, Matthijs Melissen wrote:
> Changing some of the labels is something we could do with one
> line of code and roll out tomorrow, if we wanted to.

Yes. Don't.

Bye
Frederik

-- 
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Re: [OSM-talk] Place Tagging Overview Wiki page

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 22. Sep 2017, at 17:22, SwiftFast  wrote:
> 
> There are many places to tag places. (node, way, admin area,
> landuse=residential, etc). This confuses me, and I assume it confuses
> many others. We need a comprehensive summary covering all cases.
> 
> Here's a draft: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Place_tagging_overv
> iew . It's likely inaccurate/incomplete. Please help me improve it.



the reason for the confusion is maybe, that there are different kind of things 
mapped in the same key (place). A country as administrative territorial entity  
is also covered by boundary=administrative and admin_level=2. Historically the 
place nodes for this kind of object had been needed because we couldn’t 
otherwise render these objects (too big/complex), e.g. with Osmarender. The 
precise intention of the tag isn’t very clear, because the wiki only says 
place=country is a tag for countries, but doesn’t specify what a country is, it 
does give a hint though that it is also for non “nation states”.

Wikipedia is more explicit and mentions several meanings: 
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Country

eg sovereign state, non-sovereign state, geografic region associated with sets 
of previously independent or differently associated people with distinct 
political characteristics.

Other place values like counties or municipalities would definitely not need to 
be mapped as places because they already are defined by their administrative 
boundaries.

For settlements the situation is somehow different (more like country), as the 
settlement land often doesn’t correspond to the political administrative 
territory with (often) the same name, simply because there’s (usually) space 
between on settlement and another.

I would be in favor of deprecating the use of place for things that are defined 
by administrative boundaries and of purely administrative nature (e.g. states, 
counties)

Cheers,
Martin 


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Re: [OSM-talk] Label language on the Default stylesheet

[Oleksiy Muzalyev]

On 25.09.17 12:59, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:



2017-09-25 12:39 GMT+02:00 Oleksiy Muzalyev 
mailto:oleksiy.muzal...@bluewin.ch>>:


The Latin language itself has been for centuries the language of
science, and it remains the language of scientific classification.
For example, Isaac Newton wrote his breakthrough books in Latin.



Ancient Greek has been for centuries the language of science and has 
contributed many words to the scientific language of many modern 
languages, which are still in use today.  And similarly to using latin 
there will be no doubt about which preference is given (European 
culture). ;-)



Cheers,
Martin


PS: Seriously, choosing Latin rather than English has no advantage 
besides adding an elitarian touch on top of the Europe-centricity.


The discussion is on ideas of introducing labels in Latin alphabet. The 
ancient Greek, however, has got its own non-Latin alphabet.


If not Latin, then why English? Why not French? The metric system, which 
is used in most countries, was developed in France. At least, using the 
Latin language removes such questions. I guess it is probably acceptable 
for the Latin America; if so it is not completely a Europe-centricity 
solution.


And it is not necessary to study the grammatical structure, what we need 
is just to look up a name of a place, one word, in the "la" Wikipedia. 
And it is understandable, for example Japan is: 
https://la.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iaponia , Tokyo is: 
https://la.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tokium


It is clear, that keeping map titles only in local alphabets is a 
possibility, - it is the status quo. The question was how still to make 
a map usable on the international scale.


Best regards,

Oleksiy

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Re: [OSM-talk] Label language on the Default stylesheet

[Imre Samu]

>Yes, to re-iterate: my question is about things we can do now. Vector
>tiles are on the horizon, but are likely to take a year or more from
>now. Changing some of the labels is something we could do with one
>line of code and roll out tomorrow, if we wanted to.

What about the other alternatives?

for example:
- just adding ALL (official[1])  dual languages for only Z0-Z8 level, and
keeping the current design for Z9-Z19

so there will be  (z0-z8)
- local + english
- local + chinese
- local + arabic
- local + japanese
- local + russian
- local + german
- local + spanish
- ...
- local + greek
- local + hungarian
- local + 
- .

[1]  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_official_languages

For the small languages, it will be useful for fixing data problems early,
and IMHO a better transition for a full multi-language support.


>The openstreetmap-carto team quite frequently receives requests to  
>(additionally)
display labels in English
> (or in any case the Latin-alphabet)

We must remember the survivorship bias [
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Survivorship_bias ]
People who can't speak English - can't complain in the English forum.  (
lack of visibility )

And the other question:   Adding the English language now  - can be
counterproductive for implementing the full multi-language support?   ( for
example - less urgency?)

Imre
/native Hungarian/



2017-09-25 13:48 GMT+02:00 Matthijs Melissen :

> On 25 September 2017 at 13:21, Richard Fairhurst 
> wrote:
> > Frederik Ramm wrote:
> >> I'd invest the available brainpower in steps needed to achieve
> >> this goal, even if it's a year or two in the future.
> >
> > Which means vector tiles... which we should be looking at anyway.
> >
> > But that needs to be a separate project really, rather than a facet of
> > openstreetmap-carto.
>
> Yes, to re-iterate: my question is about things we can do now. Vector
> tiles are on the horizon, but are likely to take a year or more from
> now. Changing some of the labels is something we could do with one
> line of code and roll out tomorrow, if we wanted to.
>
> -- Matthijs
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Label language on the Default stylesheet

[Andy Townsend]

On 25/09/2017 14:53, Oleksiy Muzalyev wrote:


If not Latin, then why English? Why not French?

Well _obviously_ the answer is Esperanto.  There are a few Esperanto 
enthusiasts adding names to OSM (see e.g. 
https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/name%3Aeo and 
https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/157076265 ).  I'm surprised that one 
of them hasn't popped up in this thread already.


While we're at it can we change the default tagging language to German 
so that we can be a bit more precise about everything?


Best Regards,

Andy (not entirely seriously)


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Re: [OSM-talk] Label language on the Default stylesheet

[Nicolás Alvarez]

And now we're talking about years of work. The original post to this thread 
already said making multiple versions is technically hard and out of scope.


> El 25 sept 2017, a las 07:39, James  escribió:
> 
> That's why you could have text rendered via JavaScript and not in the JPG 
> itself
> 
>> On Sep 25, 2017 6:37 AM, "Jo"  wrote:
>> 1000 - 7000 extra layers? That's give or take the number of languages in 
>> existence... depending on who you ask, but even adding 500 extra layers is 
>> not a practical endeavour.
>> 
>> 2017-09-25 12:15 GMT+02:00 James :
>>> I think Latin as default is disrespectful to areas like Japan which might 
>>> not be able to read Latin letters as they have kana for non-japanese words. 
>>> It's a bit biased to ask if Latin should be the default on a Latin based 
>>> list(letters not language).I'm sure there would be a different opinion if 
>>> you asked on talk-jp or any other list(non-latin)
>>> 
>>> Ideally it should be a layer per language: English everywhere, Japanese 
>>> everywhere, Arabic everywhere, etc etc
>>> 
 On Sep 25, 2017 6:02 AM, "Oleksiy Muzalyev"  
 wrote:
> On 9/24/2017 11:01 PM, Matthijs Melissen wrote:
> [...]For example, we have a label 北京市 for Beijing, a label موريتانيا for
> Mauritania, and a label Magyarország for Hungary.
> 
> The openstreetmap-carto team quite frequently receives requests to
> (additionally) display labels in English (or in any case the
> Latin-alphabet). [...]
 
 Why not use the Latin language itself for an additional label to non-Latin 
 alphabet titles? It is readily available in Google translator and also in 
 Wikipedia. Here are these titles in Latin:
 
 https://la.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pechinum
 
 https://la.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungaria
 
 https://la.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mauritania
 
 Best regards,
 
 Oleksiy
 
 
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Re: [OSM-talk] Label language on the Default stylesheet

[Jo]

Mi ankaŭ proponas ke ni uzos esperanto! :-)

2017-09-25 16:19 GMT+02:00 Andy Townsend :

> On 25/09/2017 14:53, Oleksiy Muzalyev wrote:
>
>>
>> If not Latin, then why English? Why not French?
>>
>> Well _obviously_ the answer is Esperanto.  There are a few Esperanto
> enthusiasts adding names to OSM (see e.g. https://taginfo.openstreetmap.
> org/keys/name%3Aeo and https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/157076265 ).
> I'm surprised that one of them hasn't popped up in this thread already.
>
> While we're at it can we change the default tagging language to German so
> that we can be a bit more precise about everything?
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Andy (not entirely seriously)
>
>
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Label language on the Default stylesheet

[Nicolás Alvarez]

> El 25 sept 2017, a las 10:54, Imre Samu  escribió:.
> 
> What about the other alternatives?
> 
> for example:
> - just adding ALL (official[1])  dual languages for only Z0-Z8 level, and 
> keeping the current design for Z9-Z19
> 
> so there will be  (z0-z8)
> - local + english
> - local + chinese
> - local + arabic
> - local + japanese
> - local + russian
> - local + german
> - local + spanish
> - ...  
> - local + greek
> - local + hungarian
> - local + 
> - .

This is 262144 more tiles *per language*. Who wants to donate a few disks?

>  
> And the other question:   Adding the English language now  - can be 
> counterproductive for implementing the full multi-language support?   ( for 
> example - less urgency?)

That sounds like an argument against any incremental improvement ever. Wouldn't 
your proposed multilingual tiles cause less urgency for vector tiles too?

> Imre
> /native Hungarian/
> 
> 
> 
> 2017-09-25 13:48 GMT+02:00 Matthijs Melissen :
>> On 25 September 2017 at 13:21, Richard Fairhurst  
>> wrote:
>> > Frederik Ramm wrote:
>> >> I'd invest the available brainpower in steps needed to achieve
>> >> this goal, even if it's a year or two in the future.
>> >
>> > Which means vector tiles... which we should be looking at anyway.
>> >
>> > But that needs to be a separate project really, rather than a facet of
>> > openstreetmap-carto.
>> 
>> Yes, to re-iterate: my question is about things we can do now. Vector
>> tiles are on the horizon, but are likely to take a year or more from
>> now. Changing some of the labels is something we could do with one
>> line of code and roll out tomorrow, if we wanted to.
>> 
>> -- Matthijs
>> 
>> 
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Re: [OSM-talk] Label language on the Default stylesheet

[Oleksiy Muzalyev]

On 25.09.17 16:19, Andy Townsend wrote:

On 25/09/2017 14:53, Oleksiy Muzalyev wrote:


If not Latin, then why English? Why not French?

Well _obviously_ the answer is Esperanto.  There are a few Esperanto 
enthusiasts adding names to OSM (see e.g. 
https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/name%3Aeo and 
https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/157076265 ).  I'm surprised that one 
of them hasn't popped up in this thread already.


While we're at it can we change the default tagging language to German 
so that we can be a bit more precise about everything?


Best Regards,

Andy (not entirely seriously)


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The Latin language has got an advantage over Esperanto. It is possible 
to view and read historical maps which are often in Latin. For example, 
in Latin the North Pole is Polus Arcticus, and in Esperanto it is Norda 
poluso. But if one looks at the historical map:


https://la.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polus_arcticus#/media/File:Mercator_north_pole_1595.jpg

it is Polus Arcticus.

The same about inscriptions on the historical monuments, plaques, 
stones, columns, walls, etc. I have nothing against Esperanto, but it 
was created only by the end of the 19th century.


Best regards,
Oleksiy


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Re: [OSM-talk] Label language on the Default stylesheet

[Daniel Koć]

W dniu 25.09.2017 o 13:15, Maarten Deen pisze:
Of course this is impractical in the UI in the current way of 
selecting layers (where each layer has its own check box to enable 
it), I was more thinking in the line of having a dropdown box for all 
language overlays. No idea if this is currently possible in openlayers.


More basic solution would be to use language settings from the user 
account preferences.


I've done simple list of possible solutions of name labels problem:

https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/issues/803#issuecomment-330526353 



They can be rendering related or deployment related. Both have its 
merits, but they can be used in parallel too.


1. Vector based solution can be full, but that's long ahead of us, yet 
in a medium term a vector names overlay should be affordable. We already 
use overlays, so the problem would be to prepare name-only vector tiles 
and deploy a code to show them on OSM website. I was thinking that maybe 
some less loaded server could be used to generate such tiles.


2. But raster rendering can be improved too. I think there's a sliding 
scale between small objects (probably only local names), big objects (in 
general no local names) and medium scale (mix of local and other 
languages). For the biggest objects (continents, oceans, seas) I've come 
to the conclusion that a set of 6 official UN languages might be good, 
small objects translations are probably fake (=not possible to verify) 
anyway, so we could just try to improve medium scale somehow (countries, 
capitals, lakes). I would not think of Latina or Esperanto, because 
English is used by much more people, if we talk about latin script. I 
also don't know what to do with users of other scripts which are not 
familiar with latin.


Overall I think vector name labels overlay is the most interesting 
solution for now, apart from osm-carto tuning. What do you think about 
it, would anyone try to do this as a pilot probably? I would be happy to 
help.


--
"Probably it's an eternal problem - too many chiefs, too few Indians" [O. 
Muzalyev]


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Re: [OSM-talk] Label language on the Default stylesheet

[John F. Eldredge]

People are confusing labels using the Latin alphabet with labels using the 
Latin language.



On September 25, 2017 8:56:04 AM Oleksiy Muzalyev 
 wrote:



On 25.09.17 12:59, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:



2017-09-25 12:39 GMT+02:00 Oleksiy Muzalyev
mailto:oleksiy.muzal...@bluewin.ch>>:

The Latin language itself has been for centuries the language of
science, and it remains the language of scientific classification.
For example, Isaac Newton wrote his breakthrough books in Latin.



Ancient Greek has been for centuries the language of science and has
contributed many words to the scientific language of many modern
languages, which are still in use today.  And similarly to using latin
there will be no doubt about which preference is given (European
culture). ;-)


Cheers,
Martin


PS: Seriously, choosing Latin rather than English has no advantage
besides adding an elitarian touch on top of the Europe-centricity.


The discussion is on ideas of introducing labels in Latin alphabet. The
ancient Greek, however, has got its own non-Latin alphabet.

If not Latin, then why English? Why not French? The metric system, which
is used in most countries, was developed in France. At least, using the
Latin language removes such questions. I guess it is probably acceptable
for the Latin America; if so it is not completely a Europe-centricity
solution.

And it is not necessary to study the grammatical structure, what we need
is just to look up a name of a place, one word, in the "la" Wikipedia.
And it is understandable, for example Japan is:
https://la.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iaponia , Tokyo is:
https://la.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tokium

It is clear, that keeping map titles only in local alphabets is a
possibility, - it is the status quo. The question was how still to make
a map usable on the international scale.

Best regards,

Oleksiy




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Re: [OSM-talk] Label language on the Default stylesheet

[John F. Eldredge]

OSMAND+ already uses a vector-based system to render OSM-data-based maps, 
and has been doing so for some time. So, the technology already exists.



On September 25, 2017 6:22:59 AM Richard Fairhurst  
wrote:



Frederik Ramm wrote:

I'd invest the available brainpower in steps needed to achieve
this goal, even if it's a year or two in the future.


Which means vector tiles... which we should be looking at anyway.

But that needs to be a separate project really, rather than a facet of
openstreetmap-carto.

Richard



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Re: [OSM-talk] Adding wikidata tags to the remaining objects with only wikipedia tag

[Yuri Astrakhan]

Since this thread had not received any new discussion in the past 4 days, I
assumed all points were answered and proceeded as planned, per mechanical
edit policy. Yet, after I have added all the nodes and moved on to
relations, I have been blocked by Andy Townsend with the following message.
I believe Andy is acting in best interest of the project, yet might have
missed or misread this discussion.  Also, the block is such that I am no
longer able to even reply on the changesets to the raised questions, so
moving it here.  I believe I acted in good faith according to the
mechanical edit policy - discussed with the community, and proceeded.

A few interesting semi-relevant statistics so far:  the number of
discovered links to disambig pages is now back to over 800, even without
100k+ untaged ways. And there are almost 38,000 osm objects where wikipedia
tag does not correspond with wikidata tag. The number is very high, but
fixing them should be semi-automated, as most of them are redirects. TBD.

Here's Andy's message, with my inlined replies. I think that almost all of
the raised points have been raised and answered in our previous discussion,
but I feel it is my responsibility to present them again.

You're conducting an import of known bad data (your own changeset comments
> say "Further cleanup will be done using...").
>

Per previous description, the existing data is already bad, and I am simply
making it possible to identify it, after discussing it on this thread.


> You are wilfully ignoring the feedback that you're receiving now and have
> received in the past. A lot of issues have been raised about the quality of
> your edits - see
> http://resultmaps.neis-one.org/osm-discussion-comments?uid=339581 . In
> many cases you seem to agree that you're adding rubbish, and yet you
> continue.
>
You seem to be suggesting (in
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk/2017-September/078767.html
> ) that "the community" clean up your mess. This is not the way that
> OpenStreetMap works - if an individual is adding data to it (especially
> large quantities of data) then it is their responsibility to ensure that
> the data that they are adding is valid, or at least as valid as the data
> that is already there.
>

Again, no, I am identifying rubbish, not introducing it, and I am very
actively replying to every comment I receive.  This is not "my data" - the
data is already in OSM in the form of the incorrect wikipedia tags. This
action is identical to what iD editor does - it *automatically* adds
corresponding wikidata ID, without any additional checks, and without many
users even being aware of it.  The way to solve the quality of this data is
to analyze it with the OSM+Wikidata tool I have built, to see the
mismatches.  Since there are tens (hundreds?) of thousands of issues
already in the database, it is clearly impossible to fix it by one person.
The available choices are:  me doing it by hand, and fixing a handful, or
make it possible to find problems, so everyone can fix them. (per Andy
Mabbett explanation)

Please go back and reread some of your previous replies on
> http://resultmaps.neis-one.org/osm-discussion-comments?uid=339581 .
> Things like "I will mostly work on high level objects (admin level <= 6)"
> suggests that you are at the very least being disingenuous in your dealings
> with the OSM community.
>

This was written a long time ago, before this effort was even started, and
before I have built the tools (OSM+Wikidata) to let community find issues.
Back then I had to do everything myself, and since it was clearly
impossible, I stopped after fixing the wast majority of the uncovered
issues by hand.


> Please stop this mechanical edit now and instead spend your time
> addressing the issues that have been raised.
>

I believe i have answered this numerous times above and in previous
conversations.  I cannot address tens of thousands of issues i *find*, I
can only help community see them, and do my part in fixing them.  Without
this effort, all the bad data in the form of incorrect wikipedia tags will
still be there, quickly rotting away with every wikipedia page rename.

P.S.  An interesting point was brought by Andy in the later online chat:

>
> in the case of https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/43749373 the
> errors were explicitly introduced by you.  The links from OSM to wikipedia
> were correct, the thing (probably a bot) creating the wikidata from
> wikipedia didn't understand the breadth of what the wikipedia article
> represented, and you incorrectly linked from OSM to the wikidata article.
>

Andy, Wikidata ID is not correct or incorrect -- it is simply a number
assigned to a Wikipedia article.  That number may have other statements,
which themselves may be incorrect. Adding Wikidata ID locks that Wikipedia
tag in place, to keep it from going stale - in case that page is renamed,
and in case a disambig is created in its place.  In some cases, the concept
presented in Wikipedi

[OSM-talk] Fixing OSM wikipedia redirects

[Yuri Astrakhan]

At the moment, there are nearly 40,000 OSM objects whose wikipedia tag does
not match their wikidata tag. Most of them are Wikipedia redirects, whose
target is the right wikipedia article. If we are not ready to abandon
wikipedia tags just yet (I don't think we should ATM), I think we should
fix them.  Fixing them by hand seems like a huge waste of the community
time, when it can be semi-automated.

I propose that a small program, possibly a plugin to JOSM, would change
wikipedia tags to point to the target article instead of the redirect.

Thoughts?
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Re: [OSM-talk] Adding wikidata tags to the remaining objects with only wikipedia tag

[Marc Gemis]

> moving it here.  I believe I acted in good faith according to the mechanical
> edit policy - discussed with the community, and proceeded.

I believe the mechanical edit polity demands that you discuss with the
*local* community. That means if your edit modifies items in e.g.
Mexico, Belgium and Japan, you have to discuss your edit with the
communities in Mexico, Belgium and Japan. This might also mean that
you have to discuss it via Telegram, Facebook, email, IRC, etc.
depending on where that local community is.

The talk mailing list is not sufficient.

regards

m.

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Re: [OSM-talk] Fixing OSM wikipedia redirects

[Marc Gemis]

what about a Maproulette task ?

On Tue, Sep 26, 2017 at 5:11 AM, Yuri Astrakhan  wrote:
> At the moment, there are nearly 40,000 OSM objects whose wikipedia tag does
> not match their wikidata tag. Most of them are Wikipedia redirects, whose
> target is the right wikipedia article. If we are not ready to abandon
> wikipedia tags just yet (I don't think we should ATM), I think we should fix
> them.  Fixing them by hand seems like a huge waste of the community time,
> when it can be semi-automated.
>
> I propose that a small program, possibly a plugin to JOSM, would change
> wikipedia tags to point to the target article instead of the redirect.
>
> Thoughts?
>
> ___
> talk mailing list
> talk@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>

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Re: [OSM-talk] Fixing OSM wikipedia redirects

[Marc Gemis]

or via Osmose ?

On Tue, Sep 26, 2017 at 5:16 AM, Marc Gemis  wrote:
> what about a Maproulette task ?
>
> On Tue, Sep 26, 2017 at 5:11 AM, Yuri Astrakhan  
> wrote:
>> At the moment, there are nearly 40,000 OSM objects whose wikipedia tag does
>> not match their wikidata tag. Most of them are Wikipedia redirects, whose
>> target is the right wikipedia article. If we are not ready to abandon
>> wikipedia tags just yet (I don't think we should ATM), I think we should fix
>> them.  Fixing them by hand seems like a huge waste of the community time,
>> when it can be semi-automated.
>>
>> I propose that a small program, possibly a plugin to JOSM, would change
>> wikipedia tags to point to the target article instead of the redirect.
>>
>> Thoughts?
>>
>> ___
>> talk mailing list
>> talk@openstreetmap.org
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>>

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Re: [OSM-talk] Fixing OSM wikipedia redirects

[Yuri Astrakhan]

According to Martijn (of MapRoulette fame), there is no way a challenge can
link to object IDs. MapRoulette can only highlight location. Nor can I
provide a proposed fix, which means someone would have to manually find the
broken object, navigate to Wikipedia, copy/paste the title, and save the
object.  I guesstimate 1 minute per object on average... that's nearly 700
hours of community time - a huge waste of human brain power that could be
spent on a much more challenging and less automatable tasks.

Osmose might be a good alternative, and might even lower the total number
of hours required, but still - would that significantly benefit the
project?  These tags are just a tiny arbitrary subset of one million
wikipedia-tagged objects.  Verifying just them by hand seems like a waste
of human intelligence. Instead, we can run queries to produce knowingly bad
objects and let community fix those. I hope we can let machines do mindless
tasks, and let humans do decision making.  This would improve contributors
morale, instead of making them feel like robots :)

Clarifying: the OSM objects already point to those pages via redirect. The
redirect information is only stored in Wikipedia.

On Mon, Sep 25, 2017 at 11:18 PM, Marc Gemis  wrote:

> or via Osmose ?
>
> On Tue, Sep 26, 2017 at 5:16 AM, Marc Gemis  wrote:
> > what about a Maproulette task ?
> >
> > On Tue, Sep 26, 2017 at 5:11 AM, Yuri Astrakhan 
> wrote:
> >> At the moment, there are nearly 40,000 OSM objects whose wikipedia tag
> does
> >> not match their wikidata tag. Most of them are Wikipedia redirects,
> whose
> >> target is the right wikipedia article. If we are not ready to abandon
> >> wikipedia tags just yet (I don't think we should ATM), I think we
> should fix
> >> them.  Fixing them by hand seems like a huge waste of the community
> time,
> >> when it can be semi-automated.
> >>
> >> I propose that a small program, possibly a plugin to JOSM, would change
> >> wikipedia tags to point to the target article instead of the redirect.
> >>
> >> Thoughts?
> >>
> >> ___
> >> talk mailing list
> >> talk@openstreetmap.org
> >> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
> >>
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Label language on the Default stylesheet

[Oleksiy Muzalyev]

On 26.09.17 01:30, John F. Eldredge wrote:


People are confusing labels using the Latin alphabet with labels using 
the Latin language.


Certainly, the Latin alphabet is more known as it is used in many modern 
languages. But the Latin language does exist, and its popularity is 
growing [1].


So my suggestion was fairly simple, - since the secondary labels in 
Latin alphabet could be only in one language on a non-vector map, why 
not use the Latin language itself. The geographical names in Latin 
language are readily available, since maps in past centuries were often 
produced in Latin language [2], so it is possible just to copy at least 
some names from the historical maps, which should be in the public 
domain by now.


Keeping names only in local alphabets, as it is now, or using English, 
French, German, or Esperanto languages, for secondary labels, are also 
not ideal solutions for numerous reasons.



[1] "The Growing Popularity of Latin and Greek", June 8, 2017

http://www.greatheartsamerica.org/amor-vincit-omnia-growing-popularity-latin-greek/ 



The Wall Street Journal, "Carpe Diem: U.S. Students Revive Latin and 
Greek", June 7, 2017


https://www.wsj.com/articles/veni-vidi-vici-u-s-students-revive-latin-and-greek-1496851612


[2] 
https://libweb5.princeton.edu/visual_materials/maps/websites/africa/maps-continent/1644%20blaeu.jpg


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Re: [OSM-talk] Adding wikidata tags to the remaining objects with only wikipedia tag

[Yuri Astrakhan]

Marc, thanks.  I was under the assumption that talk is the global community
- as it is the most generic in the list, unlike talk-us and
talk-us-newyork. Does it meany that any global proposal would require
talking to hundreds of communities independently, making it impossible to
coordinate, because comments in one community would not be visible to other
communities? Is there any kind of ambassadorial program?  Also, does it
mean that talk-us doesn't decide anything because there is a
talk-us-newyork?

In this specific case, adding wikidata seemed like a long overdue task,
something that is already happening automatically by the unmonitored iD
feature.

Btw, I looked at the descriptions at
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo

On Mon, Sep 25, 2017 at 11:14 PM, Marc Gemis  wrote:

> > moving it here.  I believe I acted in good faith according to the
> mechanical
> > edit policy - discussed with the community, and proceeded.
>
> I believe the mechanical edit polity demands that you discuss with the
> *local* community. That means if your edit modifies items in e.g.
> Mexico, Belgium and Japan, you have to discuss your edit with the
> communities in Mexico, Belgium and Japan. This might also mean that
> you have to discuss it via Telegram, Facebook, email, IRC, etc.
> depending on where that local community is.
>
> The talk mailing list is not sufficient.
>
> regards
>
> m.
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Fixing OSM wikipedia redirects

[Marc Gemis]

By using Osmose, it would be possible to involve the local
communities. People would learn about Wikidata, and might start adding
them to other objects as well. They might even start contributing to
Wikidata as well.
By just running your program, you would only fix a small number of
entries and nobody would know, nobody would bother about them.

I have the feeling that a program can fix some errors in a short
period, but doesn't bring anything else. Allowing people to fix
trivial problems, allow them to get familiar with the data, they will
take some form of ownership and maintain the data and that is more
beneficial in the long term than an automated quick fix now.

m.

On Tue, Sep 26, 2017 at 5:53 AM, Yuri Astrakhan  wrote:
> According to Martijn (of MapRoulette fame), there is no way a challenge can
> link to object IDs. MapRoulette can only highlight location. Nor can I
> provide a proposed fix, which means someone would have to manually find the
> broken object, navigate to Wikipedia, copy/paste the title, and save the
> object.  I guesstimate 1 minute per object on average... that's nearly 700
> hours of community time - a huge waste of human brain power that could be
> spent on a much more challenging and less automatable tasks.
>
> Osmose might be a good alternative, and might even lower the total number of
> hours required, but still - would that significantly benefit the project?
> These tags are just a tiny arbitrary subset of one million wikipedia-tagged
> objects.  Verifying just them by hand seems like a waste of human
> intelligence. Instead, we can run queries to produce knowingly bad objects
> and let community fix those. I hope we can let machines do mindless tasks,
> and let humans do decision making.  This would improve contributors morale,
> instead of making them feel like robots :)
>
> Clarifying: the OSM objects already point to those pages via redirect. The
> redirect information is only stored in Wikipedia.
>
> On Mon, Sep 25, 2017 at 11:18 PM, Marc Gemis  wrote:
>>
>> or via Osmose ?
>>
>> On Tue, Sep 26, 2017 at 5:16 AM, Marc Gemis  wrote:
>> > what about a Maproulette task ?
>> >
>> > On Tue, Sep 26, 2017 at 5:11 AM, Yuri Astrakhan
>> >  wrote:
>> >> At the moment, there are nearly 40,000 OSM objects whose wikipedia tag
>> >> does
>> >> not match their wikidata tag. Most of them are Wikipedia redirects,
>> >> whose
>> >> target is the right wikipedia article. If we are not ready to abandon
>> >> wikipedia tags just yet (I don't think we should ATM), I think we
>> >> should fix
>> >> them.  Fixing them by hand seems like a huge waste of the community
>> >> time,
>> >> when it can be semi-automated.
>> >>
>> >> I propose that a small program, possibly a plugin to JOSM, would change
>> >> wikipedia tags to point to the target article instead of the redirect.
>> >>
>> >> Thoughts?
>> >>
>> >> ___
>> >> talk mailing list
>> >> talk@openstreetmap.org
>> >> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>> >>
>
>

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Re: [OSM-talk] Fixing OSM wikipedia redirects

[Yuri Astrakhan]

You do have a valid point about getting the local community exposure to
Wikidata.  But I see no contradiction between that and my proposal, because
I think it would be very easy to come up with countless Wikipedia/Wikidata
cleanup tasks that require human attention. There is always be plenty of
work.  After my program runs, there will be thousands of items that could
not be resolved as easily. For example, there will be tons of cases when
wikipedia and wikidata point to different entities. Some of them are legit
- e.g. island (wikipedia) vs administrative area (wikidata).   Redirect
resolution would not introduce communities to wikidata, but rather teach
community how to mindlessly click "accept", and I would much rather avoid
that - as this might result in bigger problems when a real decision needs
to be made.

On Tue, Sep 26, 2017 at 1:04 AM, Marc Gemis  wrote:

> By using Osmose, it would be possible to involve the local
> communities. People would learn about Wikidata, and might start adding
> them to other objects as well. They might even start contributing to
> Wikidata as well.
> By just running your program, you would only fix a small number of
> entries and nobody would know, nobody would bother about them.
>
> I have the feeling that a program can fix some errors in a short
> period, but doesn't bring anything else. Allowing people to fix
> trivial problems, allow them to get familiar with the data, they will
> take some form of ownership and maintain the data and that is more
> beneficial in the long term than an automated quick fix now.
>
> m.
>
> On Tue, Sep 26, 2017 at 5:53 AM, Yuri Astrakhan 
> wrote:
> > According to Martijn (of MapRoulette fame), there is no way a challenge
> can
> > link to object IDs. MapRoulette can only highlight location. Nor can I
> > provide a proposed fix, which means someone would have to manually find
> the
> > broken object, navigate to Wikipedia, copy/paste the title, and save the
> > object.  I guesstimate 1 minute per object on average... that's nearly
> 700
> > hours of community time - a huge waste of human brain power that could be
> > spent on a much more challenging and less automatable tasks.
> >
> > Osmose might be a good alternative, and might even lower the total
> number of
> > hours required, but still - would that significantly benefit the project?
> > These tags are just a tiny arbitrary subset of one million
> wikipedia-tagged
> > objects.  Verifying just them by hand seems like a waste of human
> > intelligence. Instead, we can run queries to produce knowingly bad
> objects
> > and let community fix those. I hope we can let machines do mindless
> tasks,
> > and let humans do decision making.  This would improve contributors
> morale,
> > instead of making them feel like robots :)
> >
> > Clarifying: the OSM objects already point to those pages via redirect.
> The
> > redirect information is only stored in Wikipedia.
> >
> > On Mon, Sep 25, 2017 at 11:18 PM, Marc Gemis 
> wrote:
> >>
> >> or via Osmose ?
> >>
> >> On Tue, Sep 26, 2017 at 5:16 AM, Marc Gemis 
> wrote:
> >> > what about a Maproulette task ?
> >> >
> >> > On Tue, Sep 26, 2017 at 5:11 AM, Yuri Astrakhan
> >> >  wrote:
> >> >> At the moment, there are nearly 40,000 OSM objects whose wikipedia
> tag
> >> >> does
> >> >> not match their wikidata tag. Most of them are Wikipedia redirects,
> >> >> whose
> >> >> target is the right wikipedia article. If we are not ready to abandon
> >> >> wikipedia tags just yet (I don't think we should ATM), I think we
> >> >> should fix
> >> >> them.  Fixing them by hand seems like a huge waste of the community
> >> >> time,
> >> >> when it can be semi-automated.
> >> >>
> >> >> I propose that a small program, possibly a plugin to JOSM, would
> change
> >> >> wikipedia tags to point to the target article instead of the
> redirect.
> >> >>
> >> >> Thoughts?
> >> >>
> >> >> ___
> >> >> talk mailing list
> >> >> talk@openstreetmap.org
> >> >> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
> >> >>
> >
> >
>
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