Re: [OSM-talk-be] Association/Veriniging OpenStreetMap Belgium ?
Hello, I am a member of an asbl based on Londerzeel. We have an international reputation. But for Belgium : It is impossible to have subsidies from the Wallonie ! Because the adress is in Vlanderen... We work on the territory of the 3 regions and we have now 3 antennas, one in each region. Take care ! *__Eddy__* 2012/10/24 Nicolas Pettiaux nico...@pettiaux.be Dear Jean-Louis i totally agree with you Julien. It was my vision too. Personnaly, I would like to insist on the use of data in universities and schools. Present how to import these data into QGIS and other GIS. Because availability of Datas was a big gap in my education. please add that to the proposition de statuts http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/WikiProject_Belgium/Chapter#Proposition_de_statuts_en_fran.C3.A7ais For me, we should have only two category of members : - membres adh?rents : all contributors who may justify to be registered on OSM since two months ; - membres effectifs : members accepted by the board (this is the case in the french association) ; I agree please copy your note to the discussion page of the statuts and change the statuts accordingly. I m ready to be involved. i have free time for this asbl. great : please add you name on the sattus page then as a founding member Where are we now ? What is blocking to move forward ? Julien and eMerz have written some proposal of adaptation on the statuts. Please change the proposal accordingly so that we can read it as proposed. THanks, Nicolas -- Nicolas Pettiaux, dr. sc - gsm : +32 496 24 55 01 Lepacte.be - « promouvoir les libertés numériques en Belgique » - hetpact.be ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be
Re: [OSM-talk-be] Association/Veriniging OpenStreetMap Belgium ?
2012/10/25 Teddy e...@swing.be: Hello, I am a member of an asbl based on Londerzeel. We have an international reputation. which asbl is it ? Could you give us an URL ? But for Belgium : It is impossible to have subsidies from the Wallonie ! Because the adress is in Vlanderen... yes, Belgium IS special ! thanks -- Nicolas Pettiaux, dr. sc - gsm : +32 496 24 55 01 Lepacte.be - « promouvoir les libertés numériques en Belgique » - hetpact.be ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be
Re: [OSM-talk-be] Association/Veriniging OpenStreetMap Belgium ?
www.comitejeanpain.be Bien à toi. 2012/10/25 Nicolas Pettiaux nico...@pettiaux.be 2012/10/25 Teddy e...@swing.be: Hello, I am a member of an asbl based on Londerzeel. We have an international reputation. which asbl is it ? Could you give us an URL ? But for Belgium : It is impossible to have subsidies from the Wallonie ! Because the adress is in Vlanderen... yes, Belgium IS special ! thanks -- Nicolas Pettiaux, dr. sc - gsm : +32 496 24 55 01 Lepacte.be - « promouvoir les libertés numériques en Belgique » - hetpact.be ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be
Re: [OSM-talk-be] Association/Veriniging OpenStreetMap Belgium ?
2012/10/25 Teddy e...@swing.be: www.comitejeanpain.be merci Bien à toi. -- Nicolas Pettiaux, dr. sc - gsm : +32 496 24 55 01 Lepacte.be - « promouvoir les libertés numériques en Belgique » - hetpact.be ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be
Re: [OSM-talk-be] Association/Veriniging OpenStreetMap Belgium ?
Hi ! I had a contact with Région Wallonne. It seems that it will be too late for getting some money this year... We should have applyed for monday (sooner than expected). But I think this is a chance: we have time to think about our association, and do some stuff for applying next year. I think we should not wait and continue on our start... I propose to modify the draft to insert some proposals (in the talk page) within the text. Should we not decide of a meeting ? Julien Le 25/10/2012 17:03, Teddy a écrit : www.comitejeanpain.be http://www.comitejeanpain.be Bien à toi. 2012/10/25 Nicolas Pettiaux nico...@pettiaux.be mailto:nico...@pettiaux.be 2012/10/25 Teddy e...@swing.be mailto:e...@swing.be: Hello, I am a member of an asbl based on Londerzeel. We have an international reputation. which asbl is it ? Could you give us an URL ? But for Belgium : It is impossible to have subsidies from the Wallonie ! Because the adress is in Vlanderen... yes, Belgium IS special ! thanks -- Nicolas Pettiaux, dr. sc - gsm : +32 496 24 55 01 tel:%2B32%20496%2024%2055%2001 Lepacte.be - « promouvoir les libertés numériques en Belgique » - hetpact.be http://hetpact.be ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org mailto:Talk-be@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be
Re: [OSM-talk-be] Association/Veriniging OpenStreetMap Belgium ?
Dear Jean-Louis i totally agree with you Julien. It was my vision too. Personnaly, I would like to insist on the use of data in universities and schools. Present how to import these data into QGIS and other GIS. Because availability of Datas was a big gap in my education. please add that to the proposition de statuts http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/WikiProject_Belgium/Chapter#Proposition_de_statuts_en_fran.C3.A7ais For me, we should have only two category of members : - membres adh?rents : all contributors who may justify to be registered on OSM since two months ; - membres effectifs : members accepted by the board (this is the case in the french association) ; I agree please copy your note to the discussion page of the statuts and change the statuts accordingly. I m ready to be involved. i have free time for this asbl. great : please add you name on the sattus page then as a founding member Where are we now ? What is blocking to move forward ? Julien and eMerz have written some proposal of adaptation on the statuts. Please change the proposal accordingly so that we can read it as proposed. THanks, Nicolas -- Nicolas Pettiaux, dr. sc - gsm : +32 496 24 55 01 Lepacte.be - « promouvoir les libertés numériques en Belgique » - hetpact.be ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be
Re: [OSM-talk-be] Association/Veriniging OpenStreetMap Belgium
Pierre, Thanks a lot for you input We have not yet thought of any specific website. As far as I see it, as of today, the official OSM wiki does the job and we do not have to maintain (= devote some workforce) to its technical maintenance. May I also suggest to think about a support from the King Baudouin Foundation? How would you proceed ? What would this bring ? any help ? money ? support ? Ready to participate! What could you do ? How could you help us ? Much thanks, Nicolas -- Nicolas Pettiaux, dr. sc - gsm : +32 496 24 55 01 Lepacte.be - « promouvoir les libertés numériques en Belgique » - hetpact.be ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be
Re: [OSM-talk-be] Association/Veriniging OpenStreetMap Belgium
On Monday 15 October 2012 21:10:55 Pierre Parmentier wrote: Hello, I am following with interest the discussion about the 'OpenStreetMap Belgium asbl/vzw' project and the arguments in favour of one or two associations. 1. As an argument in favor of _one_ association, I can present the example of an asbl/vzw working in Belgium in English: the BIMCC ( http://www.bimcc.org). The Circle is dedicated to the history of cartography and ancient maps, etc. The bylaws are in French (see appendix). We 'work' in English and our Newsletter as well as our Website are also in English. We organise conferences in English. Meetings and visits are held anywhere in Belgium. But we may discuss in Dutch or French or German: anybody can express himself in his own language. Contacts with the various public departments are according to their language. It is true that our members from the south of Belgium are not so numerous. It is not only due to a lack of knowledge of the language but - in my opinion - to a lesser interest in the subject. Well, ask them how it works with relation to the government and getting grants etc. We can discuss all we want on this list, we're going to need some input from experienced people before we make any decisions based on what we may think. 2. Another example: the Swiss OpenStreetMap Association. Their Website is in four languages! If it were just languages, there wouldn't be a problem, it's basically about money and getting the optimal structure for that. 3. In a very different domain, but still in a 'culture' matter, look at the 'Vrijheids Festival des Libertés': bilingual with a large scope of sponsors/partners, including public authorities. Again, ask them how it works exactly. What the difficulties are, what you have to certainly do etc. And report it back to this list. 4. May I also suggest to think about a support from the King Baudouin Foundation? I can't really match their goals with those of OSM though... Why do you think they may be interested in OSM? Ben ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be
Re: [OSM-talk-be] Association/Veriniging OpenStreetMap Belgium ? (very soon ?)
I am sorry for the late answer, the week-end was full of activities. I would also prefer a belgian assocation than a regional one. - we are quite few, we need to do a lot of work: I think we should gather our energy and, maybe later, thinks about splitting if necessary. We are to few for a split now - (I agree with Dennys on this idea) - If we develop tools (servers, teaching of OSM, etc.), we may think that both tools will be needed in every part of Belgium. - it is still unclear about how to split: flemish/french ? What about brussels, bilingual... Walloon/Flanders/Brussels ? we need three associations... and three times the cost, etc. What are we doing now ? - a meeting in real life to discuss about the avantadges / disadvantages of splitting ? - continue the discussion on the ML ? - continue the discussion on the wiki ? Julien Le 12/10/12 15:08, Nicolas Pettiaux a écrit : 2012/10/12 Dennis Bollyn den...@gyrbo.be mailto:den...@gyrbo.be The problem for me is that the association is basically overhead. It costs money and effort to maintain it while not offering any intrinsic benefits. indeed The only reason we are considering it is because of a (possible) donation from the government. Creating two separate associations would double the overhead. +1 For now, I see no reason to create a Flemish counterpart. Since there would only exist a single association, it would be the de facto one to go to for all Belgian related situations. we said from the beginning that it could be done when needed. In summary, I propose to create a single association (which is what would probably happen anyway). If this association is created in Brussels, on neutral ground, it should be acceptable for both Walloon, Flemish and Brussels governments. If the need should every arise (a government refuses to work with an association that also works with other governments, disagreements, ...), we can always split the association afterwards. make sense. +2 Nicolas -- Nicolas Pettiaux, dr. sc - gsm : +32 496 24 55 01 Lepacte.be - « promouvoir les libertés numériques en Belgique » - hetpact.be http://hetpact.be ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be
Re: [OSM-talk-be] Association/Veriniging OpenStreetMap Belgium ? (very soon ?)
On Monday 15 October 2012 17:35:27 Julien Fastré wrote: I am sorry for the late answer, the week-end was full of activities. I would also prefer a belgian assocation than a regional one. It all depends on what you want to do with the association. And so far it's been mostly about applying for a grant from the French Community. What are the other concrete plans you have. You need to know something about the association before founding it. What does the French Community expect from such an association? Does it matter to them whether it's country based or community based? Are there constraints on what you are allowed to use the money on? You're probably have to file some dossier to apply for a grant, and it'll need to be filled things you're going to do if you get the money, and what amount of money you're looking for. You're going to need the answer to that before you go any further. - we are quite few, we need to do a lot of work: I think we should gather our energy and, maybe later, thinks about splitting if necessary. We are to few for a split now - (I agree with Dennys on this idea) - If we develop tools (servers, teaching of OSM, etc.), we may think that both tools will be needed in every part of Belgium. - it is still unclear about how to split: flemish/french ? What about brussels, bilingual... Walloon/Flanders/Brussels ? we need three associations... and three times the cost, etc. Two would be enough, and the two can always co-operate for overlapping events. But as said, it all depends on the answers of the questions above. What are we doing now ? - a meeting in real life to discuss about the avantadges / disadvantages of splitting ? - continue the discussion on the ML ? - continue the discussion on the wiki ? Wiki is a bad place for discussion, ML much more preferred. Real life meeting would be necessary before actually founding the association, but more real life meetings may be preferred. But keep it on the ML for now, that goes a bit faster for the initial discussions and gets more input from more people. Ben ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be
Re: [OSM-talk-be] Association/Veriniging OpenStreetMap Belgium ? (very soon ?)
Hello, I would be in favor for two associations, one in Wallonia and Brussels and one in Flanders and Brussels. In Wallonia, we need to give priority to this open door with the Region. It will be possible later to create a network linking belgian and europeans associations to work together in some domains. There is a strong regionalization of associations in Belgium, it's a reality and they are more efficient like that mainly for local activites, campaigns and lobbying as we imagine to do. Regions are not our only door, I know it's also possible to make good things with cities and districts. Sure, there are battles to win with IGN/NGI, but I think there are a lot of other things to do before that. I'm working in an ancient national environnemental association who has splitted in the 80's in three regional association. Most of belgian associations have made the same observations and did the same. After several years of association living, we could think about that again. But for me, it would be a real mistake to assume this problem from the beginning. Personnaly, I don't speak dutch and I'm not sure to have the courage and the desire to participate in a meeting in english for a volonteer activity after a working day. So I vote for regional entities with strong links established to keep contact and share our works. I see I'm alone to think like that for the moment. The democracy should win and I'll assume the choice of the community. But, personnaly, I wouldn't participate with the same energy in a too complex structure. How we could manage this vote ? With a framadate.org survey yes or no ? Benoit ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be
Re: [OSM-talk-be] Association/Veriniging OpenStreetMap Belgium ? (very soon ?)
What is the personnal involvement you are refering to Benoit ? You say I'm working in an ancient national environnemental association who has splitted in the 80's in three regional association. Have you got an idea of the good reasons to split ? Some reasons could be : to do as anyone else at that time; another one could be because they were threatened to loose their public (regionally linguistically sided) financing if not splitting. As a former physics Teacher, I often remember that most people at Galileo's time considered that the Sun was revolving around the Earth, as is rather evident when you look in a simplistic way at the sky, and they were all wrong. What about the efficiency of the work ? You have defintitively, as far as I have understood, played a role in the 2 meetings with the cabinet Henry that has resulted in the proposal to build something fast to be able to receive money. And then ? I am now asking myself and the list : if we follow you, what about going on with this list and the OSM wiki as usual, see this as the true OSM-BE and consider the associations, one in each parts on Belgium, as some kind of administrative or complementary activity that is need to get money and other support ? Nothing would prevent us, the people managing the association, to invite any person Please be not offended. I am thinking aloud (in writing) best Nicolas -- Nicolas Pettiaux, dr. sc - gsm : +32 496 24 55 01 Lepacte.be - « promouvoir les libertés numériques en Belgique » - hetpact.be ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be
Re: [OSM-talk-be] Association/Veriniging OpenStreetMap Belgium ? (very soon ?)
On Friday 12 October 2012 13:44:59 Nicolas Pettiaux wrote: I am now asking myself and the list : if we follow you, what about going on with this list and the OSM wiki as usual, see this as the true OSM-BE and consider the associations, one in each parts on Belgium, as some kind of administrative or complementary activity that is need to get money and other support ? Er, that's basically what the vzw/asbl would be: to support the community. The vzw/asbl won't ever *be* the community if that's what you're suggesting. And it will certainly not be some kind of governing power over the community. Just like OSM and OSMF are actually two separate entities, with OSMF supporting OSM with infrastructure, fund-raising, organizing a few events etc. Ben ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be
Re: [OSM-talk-be] Association/Veriniging OpenStreetMap Belgium ? (very soon ?)
2012/10/12 Ben Laenen benlae...@gmail.com Er, that's basically what the vzw/asbl would be: to support the community. The vzw/asbl won't ever *be* the community if that's what you're suggesting. And it will certainly not be some kind of governing power over the community. exact. Just like OSM and OSMF are actually two separate entities, with OSMF supporting OSM with infrastructure, fund-raising, organizing a few events etc. indeed. In such a way, why do we really car that the association be one or two for Belgium, where indeed, in order to get money, you would better, in general, in the culture fields rather be regionnal ? I think it is time to put the points and people + and - for 2 versus 1 associations. Then we'll summarize and count. What do you think ? -- Nicolas Pettiaux, dr. sc - gsm : +32 496 24 55 01 Lepacte.be - « promouvoir les libertés numériques en Belgique » - hetpact.be ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be
Re: [OSM-talk-be] Association/Veriniging OpenStreetMap Belgium ? (very soon ?)
The problem for me is that the association is basically overhead. It costs money and effort to maintain it while not offering any intrinsic benefits. The only reason we are considering it is because of a (possible) donation from the government. Creating two separate associations would double the overhead. For now, I see no reason to create a Flemish counterpart. Since there would only exist a single association, it would be the de facto one to go to for all Belgian related situations. In summary, I propose to create a single association (which is what would probably happen anyway). If this association is created in Brussels, on neutral ground, it should be acceptable for both Walloon, Flemish and Brussels governments. If the need should every arise (a government refuses to work with an association that also works with other governments, disagreements, ...), we can always split the association afterwards. Best regards, Dennis On Fri, Oct 12, 2012 at 2:49 PM, Nicolas Pettiaux nico...@pettiaux.bewrote: 2012/10/12 Ben Laenen benlae...@gmail.com Er, that's basically what the vzw/asbl would be: to support the community. The vzw/asbl won't ever *be* the community if that's what you're suggesting. And it will certainly not be some kind of governing power over the community. exact. Just like OSM and OSMF are actually two separate entities, with OSMF supporting OSM with infrastructure, fund-raising, organizing a few events etc. indeed. In such a way, why do we really car that the association be one or two for Belgium, where indeed, in order to get money, you would better, in general, in the culture fields rather be regionnal ? I think it is time to put the points and people + and - for 2 versus 1 associations. Then we'll summarize and count. What do you think ? -- Nicolas Pettiaux, dr. sc - gsm : +32 496 24 55 01 Lepacte.be - « promouvoir les libertés numériques en Belgique » - hetpact.be ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be
Re: [OSM-talk-be] Association/Veriniging OpenStreetMap Belgium ? (very soon ?)
On Friday 12 October 2012 14:49:45 Nicolas Pettiaux wrote: In such a way, why do we really car that the association be one or two for Belgium, where indeed, in order to get money, you would better, in general, in the culture fields rather be regionnal ? We should care if it matters to the objective of our vzw/asbl. If it makes it easier to get in contact with governments as separate Walloon and Flemish entities then we should follow that. I don't even know if they like to give funding and see their money being spent at an event in the other community. And two entities shouldn't be a problem. It won't split up our Belgian community. As said, they're just there to support it, but if we have two organizations they can focus much better on their own governments. But for now, we don't even need an organization for Flanders. So if you want to get funding from the French Community, I'd say that you create your Walloon asbl. Everything can just be in French, no need for translation, no need to have the seat in Brussels. If you want to get this running at the end of the month, that will greatly simplify everything anyway. Ben ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be
Re: [OSM-talk-be] Association/Veriniging OpenStreetMap Belgium ? (very soon ?)
On Friday 12 October 2012 17:21:16 wannes wrote: In favor of KISS: Just make a Belgian asbl, based in Wallonia/Brussels with French bylaws. If needed we can always found a second Belgian asbl, with Dutch bylaws. If not needed we don't. I vote for one Wallonian/French speaking organization. If it's ever needed we can extend that organization to cover the whole Belgium, or start a Flemish one, after having thought about it a bit more than two days and after having had more experience with what the official institutions expect. Ben ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be
Re: [OSM-talk-be] Association/Veriniging OpenStreetMap Belgium ? (very soon ?)
2012/10/12 Ben Laenen benlae...@gmail.com I vote for one Wallonian/French speaking organization. If it's ever needed we can extend that organization to cover the whole Belgium, or start a Flemish one, after having thought about it a bit more than two days and after having had more experience with what the official institutions expect. Ben ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be I totally agree with that. ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be
Re: [OSM-talk-be] Association/Veriniging OpenStreetMap Belgium ? (very soon ?)
Hey everybody. I am the one refered to by Eimai, and did the exercise a few years ago to create the bylaws, but stopped because there was no urgent need at that time; no assets, no concrete fundgathering initiatives on the horizon. It is cool to see movement as people see the need to have a asbl/vzw set up! As I am trying to follow up this thread... I totally support: 1 to go ahead and create bylaws in french. A lot of work is currently been done in that direction on the wiki. Great! 2 initiate the asbl/vzw in bxl 3 to proof read the bylaws (although my french is rather limited) Please go ahead, the time seems right. Kind regards, Ivom On Fri, 12 Oct 2012, Ben Laenen wrote: On Friday 12 October 2012 17:21:16 wannes wrote: In favor of KISS: Just make a Belgian asbl, based in Wallonia/Brussels with French bylaws. If needed we can always found a second Belgian asbl, with Dutch bylaws. If not needed we don't. I vote for one Wallonian/French speaking organization. If it's ever needed we can extend that organization to cover the whole Belgium, or start a Flemish one, after having thought about it a bit more than two days and after having had more experience with what the official institutions expect. Ben ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be
Re: [OSM-talk-be] Association/Veriniging OpenStreetMap Belgium ? (very soon ?)
Je suis dispo pour aider ! -*φol d.*- 2012/10/10 Julien Fastré jul...@fastre.info Goeieavond, Bonsoir, (français ci-dessous) Ik ga mij in het Frans uitdrukken: het is gemakkelijker voor mij. Maar ik heb geen probleem als iemand liever in het Nederlands schreeft ! Een klein samenvatting, toch! Een subsidie is haalbar bij de Waalse Regio voor een openstreetmap vereniging. Nicolas Pettiaux heeft klaargemaakt een project van statuten : http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/WikiProject_Belgium/Chapter#Titre_I_.E2.80.93_De_la_d.C3.A9nomination.2C_du_si.C3.A8ge_social.2C_de_l.E2.80.99objet_social_et_de_la_dur.C3.A9e Suite au contact que nous avons eu avec les autorités de la Région Wallonne le 26 septembre dernier, j'ai eu encore l'occasion d'échanger avec le Cabinet du Ministre en charge de la cartographie (Philippe Henry). (pour rappel, vous trouverez différents liens sur les discussions qui ont eu lieu récemment avec le SPW (Service Public de Wallonie) : http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/WikiProject_Belgium/Contacts_with_local_autorities/Wallonia ) Il semble que nous allons devoir suivre attentivement, en 2013, le processus de libération de données que nous avons évoqué (à savoir, il se pourrait que des ortho images soient libérées courant 2013). Nous allons avoir plusieurs réunions avec le SPW entre janvier et mars-avril de l'année prochaine. Le Cabinet nous soutient, mais il fait également part du fait que sans un investissement important de notre part, les choses n'avanceront pas, ou pas vite. Cela inclura des démarches également vers d'autres acteurs: par exemple, il sera surement nécessaire de préparer le terrain avec la Commission de Protection de la Vie Privée, pour déterminer à partir de quel niveau des images aériennes récentes constitueraient une atteinte à la vie privée. De même, il faudra se préparer à défendre l'usage de telle ou telle licence, voire à faire des propositions. Nous devrons peut-être prendre contact avec d'autres acteurs intéressés de l'open data. Dans ce cadre, pour plusieurs raisons et notamment l'organisation de notre joli pays, il serait beaucoup mieux vu d'avoir une entité qui est un interlocuteur ayant pignon sur rue. A savoir, une association OSM. Je pense aussi personnellement qu'une telle association pourrait proposer des services à la communauté, favoriser une image positive d'OSM en particulier, et de l'open data en général, en Belgique (on parle si peu de nous alors qu'on est si géniaux :-) ). Je pense même qu'on pourrait jouer les garde-fous si nécessaire (genre un gestionnaire de transport en commun qui donnerait toutes ses données à certains géants américains, par exemple... ) Il ressort de la discussion qu'une demande de subsidiation serait accueillie et examinée avec la plus grande attention. En cette période, les budgets des Cabinets sont examinés: si des projets n'ont pas eu lieu, l'argent qui y était réservé est affecté à d'autres projets: ce sont les queues de budgets. Ils ont pléthore de propositions, demandes et besoins; mais une demande d'une association OSM serait accueillie et reçue avec intérêt. (Ca ne veut pas dire qu'on aurait déjà les sous, mais qu'on a des chances). Mais, il faudrait que cette demande... soit reçue envoyée avant la fin du mois ! Il y aurait donc urgence à constituer cette association. Le montant du subside que l'on pourrait obtenir ne m'a pas été réellement indiqué. Au niveau des conditions: un tel subside pourrait être donné pour la réalisation de l'objet social de l'association, pas pour une mission déterminée (ce qui impliquerait des résultats obligatoires - difficilement gérable pour une asbl qui vient de s'établir). Par contre, cette activité ne pourrait avoir lieu que... en Wallonie! Le siège social n'entrera pas en ligne de compte, mais il ne pourra pas y avoir de dérogation à la localisation des activités (qu'il faudra justifier). Pour toutes ces raisons, en ayant discuté avec deux-trois personnes dont notamment Nicolas Pettiaux, ce dernier nous a préparé un projet de statut, composé à partir de celui d'autres asbl. Il est ici : http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/WikiProject_Belgium/Chapter#Titre_I_.E2.80.93_De_la_d.C3.A9nomination.2C_du_si.C3.A8ge_social.2C_de_l.E2.80.99objet_social_et_de_la_dur.C3.A9e Nous n'en avons pas encore discuté: pour ma part, il y aurait des choses à faire évoluer, mais l'essentiel est d'en parler. Deux questions : - serez-vous prêts à discuter de ces statuts, établir une association, et à tenter d'obtenir cette subvention ? - sinon, y verriez-vous une objection à ce que d'autres contributeurs avancent en ce sens, si oui laquelle ? Bien à vous, Julien Fastré ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org
Re: [OSM-talk-be] Association/Veriniging OpenStreetMap Belgium ? (very soon ?)
Le 11 octobre 2012 10:29, Pol d.paol...@gmail.com a écrit : Je suis dispo pour aider ! -*φol d.*- super. Merci de partager avec nous tes suggestions dans cette liste et dans la proposition de statuts éventuellement. Que proposes-tu de faire ? De prendre en charge ? D'organiser ? Où habites-tu ? Nicolas -- Nicolas Pettiaux, dr. sc - gsm : +32 496 24 55 01 Lepacte.be - « promouvoir les libertés numériques en Belgique » - hetpact.be ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be
Re: [OSM-talk-be] Association/Veriniging OpenStreetMap Belgium ? (very soon ?)
Hi, one question I have of course: if you do get the money, what will you be doing with it :-) Also, living on the other side of our linguistic border, what do we actually prefer: one such organization to span Belgium, or two separate ones? Right now I don't see many Flemish people involved... Ben ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be
Re: [OSM-talk-be] Association/Veriniging OpenStreetMap Belgium ? (very soon ?)
On Thu, Oct 11, 2012 at 11:53 AM, Ben Laenen benlae...@gmail.com wrote: Also, living on the other side of our linguistic border, what do we actually prefer: one such organization to span Belgium, or two separate ones? Right now I don't see many Flemish people involved... I prefer just one. Makes it easier to reach the required # members for OSM Foundation, and less overhead (costs). -- wannes ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be
Re: [OSM-talk-be] Association/Veriniging OpenStreetMap Belgium ? (very soon ?)
2012/10/11 wannes wanne...@gmail.com On Thu, Oct 11, 2012 at 11:53 AM, Ben Laenen benlae...@gmail.com wrote: Also, living on the other side of our linguistic border, what do we actually prefer: one such organization to span Belgium, or two separate ones? Right now I don't see many Flemish people involved... I prefer just one. Makes it easier to reach the required # members for OSM Foundation, and less overhead (costs). -- wannes I agree with this. Par contre, cette activité ne pourrait avoir lieu que... en Wallonie! Le siège social n'entrera pas en ligne de compte, mais il ne pourra pas y avoir de dérogation à la localisation des activités (qu'il faudra justifier). We can have one seat, it organises some activities, and for different activities, different money sources can be found. As Julien said above, the Walloon government is willing to sponser the cases where the activities take place in Wallonia. Regards, Sander ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be
Re: [OSM-talk-be] Association/Veriniging OpenStreetMap Belgium ? (very soon ?)
On Thu, Oct 11, 2012 at 1:54 PM, Dennis Bollyn den...@gyrbo.be wrote: I would also prefer to have a single organization for Belgium. This does have some practical implications. For one, the siège social/maatschappelijke zetel should probably be in Brussels. This allows the statuts/statuten to be bilingual. This does mean we need a volunteer in Brussels. IMO it is not needed for the bylaws to be bilingual. One can file them in French (or Dutch or German) and have an unofficial translation. Altough I would opt not to have them in German, because this limits future possible adresses. There is quite a bit of administrative work to be done. I'm not sure how realistic it is to create this association before the end of the month. Not having bilingual bylaws may speed things op significantly. When they are signed by the three founders, they can be filed electronically, so by the end of the month is possible. I'm willing to assist were possible (translation, research, ...). If we agree on the French text, translation can be done afterwards. -- wannes ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be
Re: [OSM-talk-be] Association/Veriniging OpenStreetMap Belgium ? (very soon ?)
I can help too... (i live in brussels) The first thing to choose is if we do 2 or 1 organisation (with maybe regional points) Then we need to discuss the object of the association ... and i think we need to become a real local chapter to be able to use osm logo / ... ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be
Re: [OSM-talk-be] Association/Veriniging OpenStreetMap Belgium ? (very soon ?)
My vote goes to 1 organisation (until we split the country, lol, just kidding). I don't see a problem with only having the bylaws in 1 language, even if it is French :-). Jo 2012/10/11 eMerzh merz...@gmail.com I can help too... (i live in brussels) The first thing to choose is if we do 2 or 1 organisation (with maybe regional points) Then we need to discuss the object of the association ... and i think we need to become a real local chapter to be able to use osm logo / ... ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be
Re: [OSM-talk-be] Association/Veriniging OpenStreetMap Belgium ? (very soon ?)
about the bylaws published i have some comments but should i set them on the wiki (discussion? ) or here? like the Object de l'assoc.. (art 3.1 ) .. we need to be more OSM specific . I like the opendata mouvement but OSM-belgium is about OSM ..; if we can in the process give access to other opendata , great! We may look on the French version to have good idea ... http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/WikiProject_France/Projet_d%27association_en_France/Statuts There, the object is : L’objectif de l’association est de promouvoir le projet OpenStreetMap et notamment la collecte, la diffusion et l'utilisation de données cartographiques sous des licences libres. Le règlement intérieur liste les licences libres applicables aux données géographiques On Thu, Oct 11, 2012 at 2:42 PM, Julien Fastré jul...@fastre.info wrote: Ok. +1 for me. Until now, we have never heard on this list the proposal to have 2 organisations. Thinking about that, I was imagined also a possibility to have two organisations with a representation of the other one in the board of each one... But for thoses people, it means having to keep beeing up to date of two asbl/vzw... about the question: what to do in this asbl and what to do with the money, i thought about such things: - organising some mapping parties and events and communicate about it (to let know OSM) ; - let do some research by universities about open data, or ask them to make a review of licence we will maybe discuss with administration ; - be present at some places (REWICS in Wallonia, salon des enseignants (?), ...) ; - and do a lot of lobbying in favour of osm by municipalities, administrations, etc. - ... About the bylaws published yesterday : do you agree about the proposals ? For me, we should have only two category of members : - membres adhérents : all contributors who may justify to be registered on OSM since two months ; - membres effectifs : members accepted by the board (this is the case in the french association) ; I do not see the utility of honoured members and membres bienfaiteurs Of course, other organisation personnes morales are accepted as members. Julien Le 11/10/12 14:08, Jo a écrit : My vote goes to 1 organisation (until we split the country, lol, just kidding). I don't see a problem with only having the bylaws in 1 language, even if it is French :-). Jo 2012/10/11 eMerzh merz...@gmail.com I can help too... (i live in brussels) The first thing to choose is if we do 2 or 1 organisation (with maybe regional points) Then we need to discuss the object of the association ... and i think we need to become a real local chapter to be able to use osm logo / ... ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be
Re: [OSM-talk-be] Association/Veriniging OpenStreetMap Belgium ? (very soon ?)
I was proposing voting on the modifications, not on the bylaws ! I am sorry you misunderstood... Of course, it is not the time to vote !!! and we will need a real meeting for that !! Julien Le 11/10/12 15:17, Ben Laenen a écrit : On Thursday 11 October 2012 15:06:47 Julien Fastré wrote: I made my proposals on the talk page: it may be easier... Should we organize vote ? You guys are moving so fast, you just announced this yesterday evening and now you're already voting on the statutes? Statutes have to be reviewed quite thoroughly first, I don't think one day is enough... Anyway, I've contacted the person who created the Dutch version of the statutes some years ago so he can give some input. He was certainly one of the people who has thought most about an organization for Belgium. Greetings Ben ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be
Re: [OSM-talk-be] Association/Veriniging OpenStreetMap Belgium ? (very soon ?)
2012/10/11 Ben Abelshausen ben.abelshau...@gmail.com I would also like to fully support this any way I can... Also 1 organisation please! :-) +42 (the answer to the question of the universe) until as said, the country is splitted or we are forced or convinced to split. As far as I know, we can start with the statuts/Statutes in 1 language and the have them translated, either officially (= published to the moniteur with the first one) or unofficially (= just for us and interested people) The statuts will be asked by the administration giving the money. This is why I proposed statutes in French. Because to get the walloon monney we will need to provide the walloon administration with them in French. There are plenty of ways to spend the money : * organize mapping parties, * buying materials, servers ... * printing promotion material * ... +1 to eMerzh : get isnpiration from the French OSM chapter for the objectives. +1 to the idea to get input from the person who proposed bylaws in Flemish ... but we need to move fast as per the request of the people wanting to give money. As I live in Brussels, I also propose and would like to be involved in the association. Best regards, Nicolas -- Nicolas Pettiaux, dr. sc - gsm : +32 496 24 55 01 Lepacte.be - « promouvoir les libertés numériques en Belgique » - hetpact.be ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be
Re: [OSM-talk-be] Association/Veriniging OpenStreetMap Belgium ? (very soon ?)
On Thu, Oct 11, 2012 at 4:04 PM, Nicolas Pettiaux nico...@pettiaux.bewrote: As far as I know, we can start with the statuts/Statutes in 1 language and the have them translated, either officially (= published to the moniteur with the first one) or unofficially (= just for us and interested people) Yes. Please go for French bylaws and unofficial translation, if speed is important. As I live in Brussels, I also propose and would like to be involved in the association. Would it be possible to have te official adress at your place? Because Brussels is bilingual it would make things easier moving to a bilingual ASBL/VWZ afterwards (altough I don't see any benefit from being bilingual officialy, now we do almost everything in English ...) -- wannes ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be
Re: [OSM-talk-be] Association/Veriniging OpenStreetMap Belgium ? (very soon ?)
Online this will probably take long. Is anyone willing to organise a meeting in real life (preferably on some central place)? Maybe make a doodle to see when most people are available. 2012/10/11 Nicolas Pettiaux nico...@pettiaux.be +1 to the idea to get input from the person who proposed bylaws in Flemish ... but we need to move fast as per the request of the people wanting to give money. ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be
Re: [OSM-talk-be] Association/Veriniging OpenStreetMap Belgium ? (very soon ?)
2012/10/11 wannes wanne...@gmail.com Yes. Please go for French bylaws and unofficial translation, if speed is important. indeed As I live in Brussels, I also propose and would like to be involved in the association. Would it be possible to have te official adress at your place? yes Because Brussels is bilingual it would make things easier moving to a bilingual ASBL/VWZ afterwards (altough I don't see any benefit from being bilingual officialy, now we do almost everything in English ...) as long as we work nicely together, no problem. We will need to have bylaws in Flemich too to be able to get money from the Flemish adminsitrations ... when times comes. We will also need to open a bank account. As good, easy bank and fast for the process of opening an account is Triodos. We just need 2 people and the bylaws to open an account for an organization (asbl/vzw or association de fait). For ASBL, they will ask the statuts ! (any language of Belgium !) -- Nicolas Pettiaux, dr. sc - gsm : +32 496 24 55 01 Lepacte.be - « promouvoir les libertés numériques en Belgique » - hetpact.be ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be
Re: [OSM-talk-be] Association/Veriniging OpenStreetMap Belgium ? (very soon ?)
On Thursday 11 October 2012 16:11:52 wannes wrote: On Thu, Oct 11, 2012 at 4:04 PM, Nicolas Pettiaux nico...@pettiaux.bewrote: As I live in Brussels, I also propose and would like to be involved in the association. Would it be possible to have te official adress at your place? Because Brussels is bilingual it would make things easier moving to a bilingual ASBL/VWZ afterwards (altough I don't see any benefit from being bilingual officialy, now we do almost everything in English ...) I guess it would matter if we started getting in contact with the Flemish Community? But I'm certainly no expert in that matter... But I'd say that having the official address in Brussels would make it a bit easier. We may be one big community ourselves, but we'll have to keep in mind that the governments we have to get in touch with aren't. Who actually lives in Brussels and is willing to have its place as the official seat of the vzw/asbl? Are there more candidates besided Nicolas? (not that I have anything against you, of course, just checking possibilities first :-p) Ben ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be
Re: [OSM-talk-be] Association/Veriniging OpenStreetMap Belgium ? (very soon ?)
The only problem I see with Triodos is that it doesn't seem to be possible to do any cash transactions (withdraw or deposit money) or have a card. This would make simple purchases quite difficult. Keytrade doesn't seem to have these problems, but I have no personal experience with them. On Thu, Oct 11, 2012 at 4:24 PM, Nicolas Pettiaux nico...@pettiaux.bewrote: We will also need to open a bank account. As good, easy bank and fast for the process of opening an account is Triodos. We just need 2 people and the bylaws to open an account for an organization (asbl/vzw or association de fait). For ASBL, they will ask the statuts ! (any language of Belgium !) -- Nicolas Pettiaux, dr. sc - gsm : +32 496 24 55 01 Lepacte.be - « promouvoir les libertés numériques en Belgique » - hetpact.be ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be
Re: [OSM-talk-be] Association/Veriniging OpenStreetMap Belgium ? (very soon ?)
On Thu, Oct 11, 2012 at 4:24 PM, Nicolas Pettiaux nico...@pettiaux.bewrote: Because Brussels is bilingual it would make things easier moving to a bilingual ASBL/VWZ afterwards (altough I don't see any benefit from being bilingual officialy, now we do almost everything in English ...) as long as we work nicely together, no problem. Don't we always? :) We will also need to open a bank account. As good, easy bank and fast for the process of opening an account is Triodos. We just need 2 people and the bylaws to open an account for an organization (asbl/vzw or association de fait). For ASBL, they will ask the statuts ! (any language of Belgium !) Just to be clear, it's not really an issue I guess: Not in german, because if the adress is in Brussels: only Dutch and French are accepted languages for the chambre of commerce whre whe have to file the bylaws. -- wannes ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be
Re: [OSM-talk-be] Association/Veriniging OpenStreetMap Belgium ?
Hello all, I will answer or respond to what i read Julien : about the question: what to do in this asbl and what to do with the money, i thought about such things: - organising some mapping parties and events and communicate about it (to let know OSM) ; - let do some research by universities about open data, or ask them to make a review of licence we will maybe discuss with administration ; - be present at some places (REWICS in Wallonia, salon des enseignants (?), ...) ; - and do a lot of lobbying in favour of osm by municipalities, administrations, etc. - ... i totally agree with you Julien. It was my vision too. Personnaly, I would like to insist on the use of data in universities and schools. Present how to import these data into QGIS and other GIS. Because availability of Datas was a big gap in my education. For me, we should have only two category of members : - membres adh?rents : all contributors who may justify to be registered on OSM since two months ; - membres effectifs : members accepted by the board (this is the case in the french association) ; I agree Nicolas Pettiaux until as said, the country is splitted or we are forced or convinced to split. As far as I know, we can start with the statuts/Statutes in 1 language and the have them translated, either officially (= published to the moniteur with the first one) or unofficially (= just for us and interested people) I m not really agree with you if it's money from Region Wallonne, ok we should create the statut in french but we should create the asbl in Bxl because it more central and work with everybody : Vlaamse, Waalse en Duitse to create one vision for all OSM Belgium (to communicate the same subjects and not recreate the wheel:licence, etc,...) and create sub divisions if necessary because we have to work with region wallonne and Vlaamse Gewenst. I m ready to be involved. i have free time for this asbl. J-L *Jean-Louis Stanus* ☎ +32 473761482 [image: Google Talk] *http://goo.gl/WSMDO* ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be
