Re: [Talk-GB] UPRN Locations Map

[Nick]

That is a good point and if the councils agree to publish under OGL, 
that would be ideal. Perhaps need to consider what data should be 
requested as a standard submission? For example, apart from the UPRN 
related data (i.e. whether parent/child, historic, provisional) the 
request could perhaps justifiably ask for a list of council land and 
property with addresses?


On 26/09/2020 14:27, Lester Caine wrote:

On 26/09/2020 13:46, David Woolley wrote:
OS are in a funny position, in that they are in the public sector, 
but are expected to be self funding. To the extent that they succeed 
in the latter, they don't owe a duty to the taxpayer.


But since the vast majority of the UPRN data is actually collected and 
managed by the relevant councils, the question is do they have the 
right to restrict access when it is council taxes that pay for the 
management of that data and not OS! SHOULD we perhaps be asking the 
various councils for direct access to the raw data under the open data 
umbrella?




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Re: [Talk-GB] UPRN Locations Map

[Lester Caine]

On 26/09/2020 13:46, David Woolley wrote:
OS are in a funny position, in that they are in the public sector, but 
are expected to be self funding.  To the extent that they succeed in the 
latter, they don't owe a duty to the taxpayer.


But since the vast majority of the UPRN data is actually collected and 
managed by the relevant councils, the question is do they have the right 
to restrict access when it is council taxes that pay for the management 
of that data and not OS! SHOULD we perhaps be asking the various 
councils for direct access to the raw data under the open data umbrella?


--
Lester Caine - G8HFL
-
Contact - https://lsces.uk/wiki/Contact
L.S.Caine Electronic Services - https://lsces.uk
Model Engineers Digital Workshop - https://medw.uk
Rainbow Digital Media - https://rainbowdigitalmedia.uk

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Re: [Talk-GB] UPRN Locations Map

[David Woolley]

On 26/09/2020 13:06, Russ Garrett wrote:

There is no legal obligation for FoI responses to be openly licensed.
The point of FoI is to make information available for inspection, but
not (necessarily) for reuse.


To expand on that.

Larger UK companies tend to be very intellectual property based, so 
making information freely available is never going to be a government 
objective.


The actual objective will be more towards open government; ensuring that 
decisions, and the information behind them are open to scrutiny.  A 
secondary purpose is probably to try to ensure that the taxpayers have 
the results of work paid for from their taxes.


OS are in a funny position, in that they are in the public sector, but 
are expected to be self funding.  To the extent that they succeed in the 
latter, they don't owe a duty to the taxpayer.


Although FoI is often used as a tactic for obtaining information for 
republication, as the response points out, that republication isn't 
actually authorised by the FoIA; the information is provided for the 
personal use of the requestor.


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Re: [Talk-GB] UPRN Locations Map

[Edward Bainton]

Are there grounds to appeal that decision?

I don't know for sure, but I would have thought the point of FOI is to make
info generally accessible.

If payment allows you to do nothing useful with the data because it's
wrapped in restrictive licence conditions (which I'm sure it would be),
then it's not "accessible" in the relevant sense.

On Sat, 26 Sep 2020, 11:29 Nick,  wrote:

> The update on the FOIA request
> https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/lists_of_historic_and_parent_upr
> is worth a read!! Makes you wonder at the value of releasing open data that
> has limited value to the public?
> On 01/08/2020 20:24, Nick wrote:
>
> As a follow up, Robert Whittaker also submitted an FOI asking for "... a
> list of all UPRNs that are classified as 'historic', and a separate list of
> all those classified as a 'parent' ". the logicto me was that this
> would help users of Open Data to then filter these out. The response that
> this was "exempt from disclosure under section 21 of the FOIA" - if you
> are interested follow the link to
> https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/lists_of_historic_and_parent_upr
>
> I was also interested regarding the details of the batch allocation to
> each custodian. So apart from the commercial value, this is unlikely to be
> published as apparently this might be misleading due to the randomness of
> the data and likely to be out of date quickly.
>
> So much for the potential for collaboration with the various authorities.
> On 06/07/2020 15:10, Nick wrote:
>
> Hi Jez
>
> To clarify, what I did was to find a 'suspicious' UPRN (two pins on one
> building with different address details). I then looked up the address on
> an online system (e.g. OneScotlandGazetteer or the local authority online
> Planning system) to check the details (UPRN and address). That allowed me
> to have details, which in this instance I then checked property sites (e.g.
> ESPC) to verify the 'likely' error.
>
> If you want more details of the example, let me know and I can put a bit
> more detail together.
>
> Cheers
>
> Nick
> On 06/07/2020 12:34, Jez Nicholson wrote:
>
> Sorry, i mean 'findmyaddress'.
>
> Also, from this Twitter thread
> https://twitter.com/jnicho02/status/1279821108783579139?s=20 I note that
> some streets have a UPRN. Existing services filter them out.
>
> On Mon, 6 Jul 2020, 12:29 Jez Nicholson,  wrote:
>
>> Do you mean that you looked up the UPRN on findmystreet and it's
>> supposedly in a different location to the latlon in the file?
>>
>> On Mon, 6 Jul 2020, 12:26 Nick,  wrote:
>>
>>> So I have just started with my crude system and already found one UPRN
>>> that looks as if it is in the wrong location (wrong postcode 6BT > 6ST ~
>>> and wrong county). If I am correct, then this demonstrates the value of
>>> opening up data to more 'eyes'. Not sure how we could collate all lists
>>> of anomalies to demonstrate this to government.
>>>
>>> On 06/07/2020 12:09, Nick wrote:
>>> > I went for the crude approach as my computer is not that powerful, so
>>> > I split the CSV into chunks and imported batches into QGIS with
>>> > county/postcode boundaries as my interest is trying to understand how
>>> > the UPRNs have been batched. Not elegant but means that I now can
>>> > focus on our area and identify those UPRNs that are most useful to me
>>> > for plotting missing rural properties. I can then write a script to
>>> > only give me those UPRNs of interest. As I say, crude but useful to me
>>> > as I can now start to match addresses to UPRN when I add properties.
>>> >
>>> > On 05/07/2020 20:56, Kai Michael Poppe - OSM wrote:
>>> >> On 05.07.2020 18:45, Kai Michael Poppe - OSM wrote:
>>> >>> On 05.07.2020 17:51, Andy Mabbett wrote:
>>>  Naive question - can that be added as a layer in JOSM? If so, how?
>>> >>> I'll have to check whether I can manage that anyway with the new
>>> server
>>> >>> now. Will come back to this.
>>> >> Meh. 3 hours in, every possible lead I had didn't bring me closer to
>>> >> setting up the UPRN data in the same way.
>>> >>
>>> >> Having 6 GiB of GeoPackage or 2 GiB of MySQL data doesn't make working
>>> >> with the data any easier.
>>> >>
>>> >> I will look out for help from the GeoServer people during the week,
>>> >> watch this space :)
>>> >>
>>> >> K
>>> >>
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Re: [Talk-GB] UPRN Locations Map

[Nick]

The update on the FOIA request 
https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/lists_of_historic_and_parent_upr 
is worth a read!! Makes you wonder at the value of releasing open data 
that has limited value to the public?


On 01/08/2020 20:24, Nick wrote:


As a follow up, Robert Whittaker also submitted an FOI asking for "... 
a list of all UPRNs that are classified as 'historic', and a separate 
list of all those classified as a 'parent' ". the logicto me was 
that this would help users of Open Data to then filter these out. The 
response that this was "exempt from disclosure under section 21 of the 
FOIA" - if you are interested follow the link to 
https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/lists_of_historic_and_parent_upr


I was also interested regarding the details of the batch allocation to 
each custodian. So apart from the commercial value, this is unlikely 
to be published as apparently this might be misleading due to the 
randomness of the data and likely to be out of date quickly.


So much for the potential for collaboration with the various authorities.

On 06/07/2020 15:10, Nick wrote:


Hi Jez

To clarify, what I did was to find a 'suspicious' UPRN (two pins on 
one building with different address details). I then looked up the 
address on an online system (e.g. OneScotlandGazetteer or the local 
authority online Planning system) to check the details (UPRN and 
address). That allowed me to have details, which in this instance I 
then checked property sites (e.g. ESPC) to verify the 'likely' error.


If you want more details of the example, let me know and I can put a 
bit more detail together.


Cheers

Nick

On 06/07/2020 12:34, Jez Nicholson wrote:

Sorry, i mean 'findmyaddress'.

Also, from this Twitter thread 
https://twitter.com/jnicho02/status/1279821108783579139?s=20 I note 
that some streets have a UPRN. Existing services filter them out.


On Mon, 6 Jul 2020, 12:29 Jez Nicholson, > wrote:


Do you mean that you looked up the UPRN on findmystreet and it's
supposedly in a different location to the latlon in the file?

On Mon, 6 Jul 2020, 12:26 Nick, mailto:n...@foresters.org>> wrote:

So I have just started with my crude system and already
found one UPRN
that looks as if it is in the wrong location (wrong postcode
6BT > 6ST ~
and wrong county). If I am correct, then this demonstrates
the value of
opening up data to more 'eyes'. Not sure how we could
collate all lists
of anomalies to demonstrate this to government.

On 06/07/2020 12:09, Nick wrote:
> I went for the crude approach as my computer is not that
powerful, so
> I split the CSV into chunks and imported batches into QGIS
with
> county/postcode boundaries as my interest is trying to
understand how
> the UPRNs have been batched. Not elegant but means that I
now can
> focus on our area and identify those UPRNs that are most
useful to me
> for plotting missing rural properties. I can then write a
script to
> only give me those UPRNs of interest. As I say, crude but
useful to me
> as I can now start to match addresses to UPRN when I add
properties.
>
> On 05/07/2020 20:56, Kai Michael Poppe - OSM wrote:
>> On 05.07.2020 18:45, Kai Michael Poppe - OSM wrote:
>>> On 05.07.2020 17:51, Andy Mabbett wrote:
 Naive question - can that be added as a layer in JOSM?
If so, how?
>>> I'll have to check whether I can manage that anyway with
the new server
>>> now. Will come back to this.
>> Meh. 3 hours in, every possible lead I had didn't bring
me closer to
>> setting up the UPRN data in the same way.
>>
>> Having 6 GiB of GeoPackage or 2 GiB of MySQL data doesn't
make working
>> with the data any easier.
>>
>> I will look out for help from the GeoServer people during
the week,
>> watch this space :)
>>
>> K
>>
>> ___
>> Talk-GB mailing list
>> Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org 
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
>
> ___
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Re: [Talk-GB] UPRN Locations Map

[Mark Goodge]

On 02/08/2020 11:58, Jez Nicholson wrote:
My initial thought was also "conspiracy!". Licence problem is more 
likely, or perhaps they were concerned that someone might poll the URL 
with every available UPRN.


I'm certain that it's been done to prevent people using the EA site as a 
means of looking up an address from a UPRN. That's the only plausible 
explanation for a change which both makes the site more complex from an 
operator point of view (instead of a single database lookup, it now 
needs to do several to identify the property from the postcode and 
sequence ID) and less useful from a user perspective (because you can no 
longer bookmark and share a link to a specific property).


If it is a licence issue, then that's going to have ramifications beyond 
the EA. A lot of local authorities use the UPRN in the URL for 
property-related information. For example, if you live in Cambridge, you 
can check when your bins will be emptied by appending the UPRN to the page:


https://www.cambridge.gov.uk/check-when-your-bin-will-be-emptied#id=24173390

and if you live in Worcestershire, you can check lots of useful stuff 
about your property:


http://e-services.worcestershire.gov.uk/MyLocalArea/MyLocalAreaResults.aspx?uprn=100120673306

It seems to me that this is precisely how the UPRN should be used by 
government and other organisations. To quote Matt Hancock from when he 
was the secretary of state for DCMS:


"The UPRN is the jewel at the heart of the addressing system. It links 
address data across a diverse range of systems and services facilitating 
greater accuracy and immediate data sharing"


and the government's own statement on open UPRNs states that

"Users need property and street information with identifiers that remain 
the same over time and are easy to exchange between systems."


and

"Systems, services and applications that store or publish data sets 
containing property and street information must use the UPRN and USRN 
identifiers."


https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/open-standards-for-government/identifying-property-and-street-information

So it seems to me that there should be no licensing issues with using 
the UPRN as a unique identifier in a public URL. If anything, the 
requirement to use UPRNs in any published dataset seems to pretty much 
make it the simplest means of compliance.


(I appreciate that this is going a bit off topic for OSM, so I think 
I'll leave it there unless there's anything else directly 
mapping-related, but it's worth noting that this change has already been 
mentioned on social media and I suspect it's an issue which will gain 
more traction over time).


Mark

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Re: [Talk-GB] UPRN Locations Map

[Nick]

Hi Jez

You can limit the number of requests to a specific URL (or set of URLs) 
by IP address - so polling "every available UPRN" would not be an issue 
(e.g. can limit the number of requests from a given IP over a given time 
period).


Cheers

Nick

On 02/08/2020 11:58, Jez Nicholson wrote:

My initial thought was also "conspiracy!". Licence problem is more 
likely, or perhaps they were concerned that someone might poll the URL 
with every available UPRN.


On Sun, 2 Aug 2020, 11:38 Nick, > wrote:

I have no problem with licencing but the UPRN and related data is
managed by Authority custodians - do they not retain ownership of that 
data?


If the authorities sell it to OS, then should this be raised with The Rt
Hon Alok Sharma MP (he owns 100% of the shares of OS)?

N.B. there are some aspects to address data that is subject to other IP
rights but the remainder. is surely of public interest and value.

On 02/08/2020 10:34, Russ Garrett wrote:
> On Sun, 2 Aug 2020 at 10:20, Andy Mabbett > wrote:

>> Do you have a plausible hypothesis to explain the removal of UPRNs
>> from the flood warning pages, that also gives us a reason to trust the
>> organisation that enacted that change?
> It's almost certainly because some lawyer or other spotted that it's a
> violation of the PSGA (formerly PSMA) license under which the
> AddressBase data is made available to the Environment Agency.
>
> 
https://www.ordnancesurvey.co.uk/documents/licensing/psga-member-licence.pdf

>
> There's no conspiracy here beyond OS zealously protecting its data, as
> it always has done.
>

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Re: [Talk-GB] UPRN Locations Map

[Andy Mabbett]

On Sun, 2 Aug 2020 at 11:58, Jez Nicholson  wrote:

>>> the Environment Agency flood risk website no longer
>>> allows you to link directly to a property by UPRN

> perhaps they were concerned that someone might poll the URL with every 
> available UPRN.

If that were the case, I'm confident the government web team have the
knowledge and wherewithal to apply rate limiting.

-- 
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@pigsonthewing
http://pigsonthewing.org.uk

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Re: [Talk-GB] UPRN Locations Map

[Jez Nicholson]

My initial thought was also "conspiracy!". Licence problem is more likely,
or perhaps they were concerned that someone might poll the URL with every
available UPRN.

On Sun, 2 Aug 2020, 11:38 Nick,  wrote:

> I have no problem with licencing but the UPRN and related data is
> managed by Authority custodians - do they not retain ownership of that
> data?
>
> If the authorities sell it to OS, then should this be raised with The Rt
> Hon Alok Sharma MP (he owns 100% of the shares of OS)?
>
> N.B. there are some aspects to address data that is subject to other IP
> rights but the remainder. is surely of public interest and value.
>
> On 02/08/2020 10:34, Russ Garrett wrote:
> > On Sun, 2 Aug 2020 at 10:20, Andy Mabbett 
> wrote:
> >> Do you have a plausible hypothesis to explain the removal of UPRNs
> >> from the flood warning pages, that also gives us a reason to trust the
> >> organisation that enacted that change?
> > It's almost certainly because some lawyer or other spotted that it's a
> > violation of the PSGA (formerly PSMA) license under which the
> > AddressBase data is made available to the Environment Agency.
> >
> >
> https://www.ordnancesurvey.co.uk/documents/licensing/psga-member-licence.pdf
> >
> > There's no conspiracy here beyond OS zealously protecting its data, as
> > it always has done.
> >
>
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Re: [Talk-GB] UPRN Locations Map

[Nick]

I have no problem with licencing but the UPRN and related data is 
managed by Authority custodians - do they not retain ownership of that data?


If the authorities sell it to OS, then should this be raised with The Rt 
Hon Alok Sharma MP (he owns 100% of the shares of OS)?


N.B. there are some aspects to address data that is subject to other IP 
rights but the remainder. is surely of public interest and value.


On 02/08/2020 10:34, Russ Garrett wrote:

On Sun, 2 Aug 2020 at 10:20, Andy Mabbett  wrote:

Do you have a plausible hypothesis to explain the removal of UPRNs
from the flood warning pages, that also gives us a reason to trust the
organisation that enacted that change?

It's almost certainly because some lawyer or other spotted that it's a
violation of the PSGA (formerly PSMA) license under which the
AddressBase data is made available to the Environment Agency.

https://www.ordnancesurvey.co.uk/documents/licensing/psga-member-licence.pdf

There's no conspiracy here beyond OS zealously protecting its data, as
it always has done.



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Re: [Talk-GB] UPRN Locations Map

[Russ Garrett]

On Sun, 2 Aug 2020 at 10:20, Andy Mabbett  wrote:
> Do you have a plausible hypothesis to explain the removal of UPRNs
> from the flood warning pages, that also gives us a reason to trust the
> organisation that enacted that change?

It's almost certainly because some lawyer or other spotted that it's a
violation of the PSGA (formerly PSMA) license under which the
AddressBase data is made available to the Environment Agency.

https://www.ordnancesurvey.co.uk/documents/licensing/psga-member-licence.pdf

There's no conspiracy here beyond OS zealously protecting its data, as
it always has done.

-- 
Russ Garrett
r...@garrett.co.uk

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Re: [Talk-GB] UPRN Locations Map

[Andy Mabbett]

On Sun, 2 Aug 2020 at 09:41, Nick  wrote:

> On 01/08/2020 21:19, Mark Goodge wrote:

> > I'm pretty certain this is deliberate, in order to stop people using
> > their site as a way to look up addresses from a UPRN. And I suspect
> > it's part of the same attempts by GeoPlace to deliberately minimise
> > the utility of the Open UPRN database.

> the current situation regarding openness leads
> to speculation and as Mark so clearly states to "deliberately minimise
> the utility of the Open UPRN database" - the risk is that this sort of
> speculation leads to a lack of trust

Do you have a plausible hypothesis to explain the removal of UPRNs
from the flood warning pages, that also gives us a reason to trust the
organisation that enacted that change?

-- 
Andy Mabbett
@pigsonthewing
http://pigsonthewing.org.uk

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Re: [Talk-GB] UPRN Locations Map

[Nick]

Personally, I don't think that classifying UPRNs (e.g. historic, parent, 
non-addressable etc.) nor publishing dynamically the allocations to the 
custodians of batches of UPRNs would detract from the commercial value 
derived by Ordnance Survey (OS). I fully understand that as a limited 
company, OS is perhaps less motivated to collaborate with the public. 
However, public bodies such as the Environment Agency surely have a 
broader responsibility to the public?


Why I get on my high horse about this is the knowledge that UPRNs and 
related data have errors but perhaps even more tragically, the lack of 
openness can lead to direct impact to people's lives. I also realise 
that the OSM Foundation is a non-profit organisation whose purpose is to 
support the OSM project - my reading is that this is technical rather 
than political. I also re-read Owen Boswarva's blog 
https://www.owenboswarva.com/blog/post-addr1.htm and end up feeling that 
the publishing of Open Data is a bit like the comment "When information 
is missing, we speculate about what the government might be hiding, or 
fill in the gaps with anecdotes." 
[https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/apr/02/government-publish-data-coronavirus-deaths]


I therefore believe that the current situation regarding openness leads 
to speculation and as Mark so clearly states to "deliberately minimise 
the utility of the Open UPRN database" - the risk is that this sort of 
speculation leads to a lack of trust


On 01/08/2020 21:19, Mark Goodge wrote:



On 01/08/2020 20:24, Nick wrote:
As a follow up, Robert Whittaker also submitted an FOI asking for 
"... a list of all UPRNs that are classified as 'historic', and a 
separate list of all those classified as a 'parent' ". the 
logicto me was that this would help users of Open Data to then filter 
these out. The response that this was "exempt from disclosure under 
section 21 of the FOIA" - if you are interested follow the link to 
https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/lists_of_historic_and_parent_upr


In another move, the Environment Agency flood risk website no longer 
allows you to link directly to a property by UPRN. You used to be able 
to construct a link in this format:


https://flood-warning-information.service.gov.uk/long-term-flood-risk/risk?address=[uprn] 



But that no longer works. Now, you have to search by postcode, and 
when you select an address the site then sets a cookie which 
determines which property details you will be shown. And, checking the 
source of the postcode page, it no longer has the UPRN as a variable 
for each property. Instead, it's a simple sequential number. For 
example, if there are ten properties in a postcode, then the variables 
will be numbered 0 to 9.


I'm pretty certain this is deliberate, in order to stop people using 
their site as a way to look up addresses from a UPRN. And I suspect 
it's part of the same attempts by GeoPlace to deliberately minimise 
the utility of the Open UPRN database.


Mark

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Re: [Talk-GB] UPRN Locations Map

[Mark Goodge]

On 01/08/2020 20:24, Nick wrote:
As a follow up, Robert Whittaker also submitted an FOI asking for "... a 
list of all UPRNs that are classified as 'historic', and a separate list 
of all those classified as a 'parent' ". the logicto me was that 
this would help users of Open Data to then filter these out. The 
response that this was "exempt from disclosure under section 21 of the 
FOIA" - if you are interested follow the link to 
https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/lists_of_historic_and_parent_upr


In another move, the Environment Agency flood risk website no longer 
allows you to link directly to a property by UPRN. You used to be able 
to construct a link in this format:


https://flood-warning-information.service.gov.uk/long-term-flood-risk/risk?address=[uprn]

But that no longer works. Now, you have to search by postcode, and when 
you select an address the site then sets a cookie which determines which 
property details you will be shown. And, checking the source of the 
postcode page, it no longer has the UPRN as a variable for each 
property. Instead, it's a simple sequential number. For example, if 
there are ten properties in a postcode, then the variables will be 
numbered 0 to 9.


I'm pretty certain this is deliberate, in order to stop people using 
their site as a way to look up addresses from a UPRN. And I suspect it's 
part of the same attempts by GeoPlace to deliberately minimise the 
utility of the Open UPRN database.


Mark

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Re: [Talk-GB] UPRN Locations Map

[Nick]

As a follow up, Robert Whittaker also submitted an FOI asking for "... a 
list of all UPRNs that are classified as 'historic', and a separate list 
of all those classified as a 'parent' ". the logicto me was that 
this would help users of Open Data to then filter these out. The 
response that this was "exempt from disclosure under section 21 of the 
FOIA" - if you are interested follow the link to 
https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/lists_of_historic_and_parent_upr


I was also interested regarding the details of the batch allocation to 
each custodian. So apart from the commercial value, this is unlikely to 
be published as apparently this might be misleading due to the 
randomness of the data and likely to be out of date quickly.


So much for the potential for collaboration with the various authorities.

On 06/07/2020 15:10, Nick wrote:


Hi Jez

To clarify, what I did was to find a 'suspicious' UPRN (two pins on 
one building with different address details). I then looked up the 
address on an online system (e.g. OneScotlandGazetteer or the local 
authority online Planning system) to check the details (UPRN and 
address). That allowed me to have details, which in this instance I 
then checked property sites (e.g. ESPC) to verify the 'likely' error.


If you want more details of the example, let me know and I can put a 
bit more detail together.


Cheers

Nick

On 06/07/2020 12:34, Jez Nicholson wrote:

Sorry, i mean 'findmyaddress'.

Also, from this Twitter thread 
https://twitter.com/jnicho02/status/1279821108783579139?s=20 I note 
that some streets have a UPRN. Existing services filter them out.


On Mon, 6 Jul 2020, 12:29 Jez Nicholson, > wrote:


Do you mean that you looked up the UPRN on findmystreet and it's
supposedly in a different location to the latlon in the file?

On Mon, 6 Jul 2020, 12:26 Nick, mailto:n...@foresters.org>> wrote:

So I have just started with my crude system and already found
one UPRN
that looks as if it is in the wrong location (wrong postcode
6BT > 6ST ~
and wrong county). If I am correct, then this demonstrates
the value of
opening up data to more 'eyes'. Not sure how we could collate
all lists
of anomalies to demonstrate this to government.

On 06/07/2020 12:09, Nick wrote:
> I went for the crude approach as my computer is not that
powerful, so
> I split the CSV into chunks and imported batches into QGIS
with
> county/postcode boundaries as my interest is trying to
understand how
> the UPRNs have been batched. Not elegant but means that I
now can
> focus on our area and identify those UPRNs that are most
useful to me
> for plotting missing rural properties. I can then write a
script to
> only give me those UPRNs of interest. As I say, crude but
useful to me
> as I can now start to match addresses to UPRN when I add
properties.
>
> On 05/07/2020 20:56, Kai Michael Poppe - OSM wrote:
>> On 05.07.2020 18:45, Kai Michael Poppe - OSM wrote:
>>> On 05.07.2020 17:51, Andy Mabbett wrote:
 Naive question - can that be added as a layer in JOSM?
If so, how?
>>> I'll have to check whether I can manage that anyway with
the new server
>>> now. Will come back to this.
>> Meh. 3 hours in, every possible lead I had didn't bring me
closer to
>> setting up the UPRN data in the same way.
>>
>> Having 6 GiB of GeoPackage or 2 GiB of MySQL data doesn't
make working
>> with the data any easier.
>>
>> I will look out for help from the GeoServer people during
the week,
>> watch this space :)
>>
>> K
>>
>> ___
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Re: [Talk-GB] UPRN Locations Map

[Paul via Talk-GB]

On Sunday, 5 July 2020 18:42:43 BST Mark Goodge wrote:
> On 05/07/2020 18:35, Robert Skedgell wrote:
> > On 05/07/2020 17:58, Mark Goodge wrote:
> >> Just out of interest, is there any simple way to export data from
> >> GeoPackage (eg, to GML or GeoJSON) via the command line on Linux? I've
> >> tried ogr2ogr, but that doesn't seem to recognise GeoPackage as a
> >> source. I can do it manually by loading it into QGIS desktop and then
> >> exporting it, but I'd prefer something I can automate.
> > 
> > This worked for me to import a copy of the USRN GeoPackage file into my
> > local OSM database:
> > 
> > ogr2ogr -f PGDump -s_srs EPSG:27700 -t_srs EPSG:3857 \
> > osopenusrn_202007.sql osopenusrn_202007.gpkg
> > 
> > Is it possible that your installation of GDAL doesn't include support
> > for the GPKG vector driver?
> 
> Yes, I get the error
> 
> Unable to open datasource `osopenusrn_202007.gpkg' with the following
> drivers
> 
> followed by a list of drivers, and GPGK isn't one of them. But GDAL
> seems to be up to date, so I'm not sure how to add it.
> 
> Mark

You may have been caught by the current heavy development affecting GDAL and 
PROJ  in the spatial field. 

The LTS releases of various linuxes are significantly behind on this, and the 
projects that use GDAL and PROJ as upstream are catching up slowly. There are 
major changes.

My Ubuntu bionic (due for upgrade to Focal shortly) claims to have a current 
GDAL - using an ubuntigis unstable repo, but that's behind as well - I'm on 
GDAL 3.04 while upstream is 3.11.

Paul Bivand




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Re: [Talk-GB] UPRN Locations Map

[Mark Goodge]

On 05/07/2020 18:42, I wrote:



On 05/07/2020 18:35, Robert Skedgell wrote:


Is it possible that your installation of GDAL doesn't include support
for the GPKG vector driver?


Yes, I get the error

Unable to open datasource `osopenusrn_202007.gpkg' with the following 
drivers


Just as a follow-up note, I tried it with a fresh install of GDAL on a 
different server and it works fine. So there clearly was something odd 
about the version I'd originally used. But that's immaterial now, 
fortunately.


Mark

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Re: [Talk-GB] UPRN Locations Map

[ndrw]

On 02/07/2020 17:38, Robert Whittaker (OSM lists) wrote:

I'm not completely sure if/how we can best make use of the new OS
OpenData (UPRNs, USRNs and related links) in OpenStreetMap, but as a
first step I've set up a quick slippy map with the UPRN locations
shown:

https://osm.mathmos.net/addresses/uprn/ (zoom in to level 16 to show the data)


I've been reading about the geopackage file format used for encoding 
UPRN and USRN data and played with the databases a bit. Below is a 
summary of what I've learned.


Geopackage files are really sqlite databases with a gpgk extension. The 
extension can be downloaded from 
https://bitbucket.org/luciad/libgpkg/src/default/ and compiled. The 
extension is needed for accessing geometry values (blobs), a similar 
concept to the one used by the mod_spatialite extension but not 
compatible with it.


The gpgk_contents table serves as a main entry point specifying the name 
of the table containing data, last change date, spatial extents along 
with a spatial reference system (here EPSG27700/OSGB1936).


Gpgk_geometry_columns specifies names of the table+column holding 
geometric data, their types, their spatial reference system, z 
(elevation) and m (measure) values. The latter two are not used in these 
files.


Gpkg_spatial_ref_sys provides definitions of WGS84 and OSGB1936 
reference systems, only the latter is used by the data tables.


Gpkg_tile_matrix and gpkg_tile_matrix_set tables are empty, no 
pre-generated tiles.


Tables with names starting with rtree_ are spatial indices for geometric 
data. This is defined by an extension to GeoPackage 
(http://www.geopackage.org/spec120/#extension_rtree) - I haven't tried 
using this feature yet.


1. UPRN file

This file contains UPRNs and their locations (Point) in the 
osopenuprn_address table. In addition to the GEOM field containing point 
coordinates it duplicates the coordinates in separate fields in both 
OSGB1936 and WGS84 formats. So, if necessary, this file can be used 
without the pgkg extension. Unfortunately, despite fancy packaging it is 
still "a proprietary number+coordinates" data format, so, unless there 
are additional open data available specifying the meaning of each UPRN, 
UPRNs are (IMHO) only useful as a reference.


Script for accessing contents of the geopackage file:

#!/bin/sh
sqlite3 -batch -echo osopenuprn_202006.gpkg 



Re: [Talk-GB] UPRN Locations Map


2020-07-06

Thread
Nick


Hi Jez

To clarify, what I did was to find a 'suspicious' UPRN (two pins on one 
building with different address details). I then looked up the address 
on an online system (e.g. OneScotlandGazetteer or the local authority 
online Planning system) to check the details (UPRN and address). That 
allowed me to have details, which in this instance I then checked 
property sites (e.g. ESPC) to verify the 'likely' error.


If you want more details of the example, let me know and I can put a bit 
more detail together.


Cheers

Nick

On 06/07/2020 12:34, Jez Nicholson wrote:

Sorry, i mean 'findmyaddress'.

Also, from this Twitter thread 
https://twitter.com/jnicho02/status/1279821108783579139?s=20 I note 
that some streets have a UPRN. Existing services filter them out.


On Mon, 6 Jul 2020, 12:29 Jez Nicholson, > wrote:


Do you mean that you looked up the UPRN on findmystreet and it's
supposedly in a different location to the latlon in the file?

On Mon, 6 Jul 2020, 12:26 Nick, mailto:n...@foresters.org>> wrote:

So I have just started with my crude system and already found
one UPRN
that looks as if it is in the wrong location (wrong postcode
6BT > 6ST ~
and wrong county). If I am correct, then this demonstrates the
value of
opening up data to more 'eyes'. Not sure how we could collate
all lists
of anomalies to demonstrate this to government.

On 06/07/2020 12:09, Nick wrote:
> I went for the crude approach as my computer is not that
powerful, so
> I split the CSV into chunks and imported batches into QGIS with
> county/postcode boundaries as my interest is trying to
understand how
> the UPRNs have been batched. Not elegant but means that I
now can
> focus on our area and identify those UPRNs that are most
useful to me
> for plotting missing rural properties. I can then write a
script to
> only give me those UPRNs of interest. As I say, crude but
useful to me
> as I can now start to match addresses to UPRN when I add
properties.
>
> On 05/07/2020 20:56, Kai Michael Poppe - OSM wrote:
>> On 05.07.2020 18:45, Kai Michael Poppe - OSM wrote:
>>> On 05.07.2020 17:51, Andy Mabbett wrote:
 Naive question - can that be added as a layer in JOSM? If
so, how?
>>> I'll have to check whether I can manage that anyway with
the new server
>>> now. Will come back to this.
>> Meh. 3 hours in, every possible lead I had didn't bring me
closer to
>> setting up the UPRN data in the same way.
>>
>> Having 6 GiB of GeoPackage or 2 GiB of MySQL data doesn't
make working
>> with the data any easier.
>>
>> I will look out for help from the GeoServer people during
the week,
>> watch this space :)
>>
>> K
>>
>> ___
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Re: [Talk-GB] UPRN Locations Map


2020-07-06

Thread
Jez Nicholson

Sorry, i mean 'findmyaddress'.

Also, from this Twitter thread
https://twitter.com/jnicho02/status/1279821108783579139?s=20 I note that
some streets have a UPRN. Existing services filter them out.

On Mon, 6 Jul 2020, 12:29 Jez Nicholson,  wrote:

> Do you mean that you looked up the UPRN on findmystreet and it's
> supposedly in a different location to the latlon in the file?
>
> On Mon, 6 Jul 2020, 12:26 Nick,  wrote:
>
>> So I have just started with my crude system and already found one UPRN
>> that looks as if it is in the wrong location (wrong postcode 6BT > 6ST ~
>> and wrong county). If I am correct, then this demonstrates the value of
>> opening up data to more 'eyes'. Not sure how we could collate all lists
>> of anomalies to demonstrate this to government.
>>
>> On 06/07/2020 12:09, Nick wrote:
>> > I went for the crude approach as my computer is not that powerful, so
>> > I split the CSV into chunks and imported batches into QGIS with
>> > county/postcode boundaries as my interest is trying to understand how
>> > the UPRNs have been batched. Not elegant but means that I now can
>> > focus on our area and identify those UPRNs that are most useful to me
>> > for plotting missing rural properties. I can then write a script to
>> > only give me those UPRNs of interest. As I say, crude but useful to me
>> > as I can now start to match addresses to UPRN when I add properties.
>> >
>> > On 05/07/2020 20:56, Kai Michael Poppe - OSM wrote:
>> >> On 05.07.2020 18:45, Kai Michael Poppe - OSM wrote:
>> >>> On 05.07.2020 17:51, Andy Mabbett wrote:
>>  Naive question - can that be added as a layer in JOSM? If so, how?
>> >>> I'll have to check whether I can manage that anyway with the new
>> server
>> >>> now. Will come back to this.
>> >> Meh. 3 hours in, every possible lead I had didn't bring me closer to
>> >> setting up the UPRN data in the same way.
>> >>
>> >> Having 6 GiB of GeoPackage or 2 GiB of MySQL data doesn't make working
>> >> with the data any easier.
>> >>
>> >> I will look out for help from the GeoServer people during the week,
>> >> watch this space :)
>> >>
>> >> K
>> >>
>> >> ___
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Re: [Talk-GB] UPRN Locations Map


2020-07-06

Thread
Jez Nicholson

Do you mean that you looked up the UPRN on findmystreet and it's supposedly
in a different location to the latlon in the file?

On Mon, 6 Jul 2020, 12:26 Nick,  wrote:

> So I have just started with my crude system and already found one UPRN
> that looks as if it is in the wrong location (wrong postcode 6BT > 6ST ~
> and wrong county). If I am correct, then this demonstrates the value of
> opening up data to more 'eyes'. Not sure how we could collate all lists
> of anomalies to demonstrate this to government.
>
> On 06/07/2020 12:09, Nick wrote:
> > I went for the crude approach as my computer is not that powerful, so
> > I split the CSV into chunks and imported batches into QGIS with
> > county/postcode boundaries as my interest is trying to understand how
> > the UPRNs have been batched. Not elegant but means that I now can
> > focus on our area and identify those UPRNs that are most useful to me
> > for plotting missing rural properties. I can then write a script to
> > only give me those UPRNs of interest. As I say, crude but useful to me
> > as I can now start to match addresses to UPRN when I add properties.
> >
> > On 05/07/2020 20:56, Kai Michael Poppe - OSM wrote:
> >> On 05.07.2020 18:45, Kai Michael Poppe - OSM wrote:
> >>> On 05.07.2020 17:51, Andy Mabbett wrote:
>  Naive question - can that be added as a layer in JOSM? If so, how?
> >>> I'll have to check whether I can manage that anyway with the new server
> >>> now. Will come back to this.
> >> Meh. 3 hours in, every possible lead I had didn't bring me closer to
> >> setting up the UPRN data in the same way.
> >>
> >> Having 6 GiB of GeoPackage or 2 GiB of MySQL data doesn't make working
> >> with the data any easier.
> >>
> >> I will look out for help from the GeoServer people during the week,
> >> watch this space :)
> >>
> >> K
> >>
> >> ___
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> >> Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org
> >> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
> >
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Re: [Talk-GB] UPRN Locations Map


2020-07-06

Thread
Nick

So I have just started with my crude system and already found one UPRN 
that looks as if it is in the wrong location (wrong postcode 6BT > 6ST ~ 
and wrong county). If I am correct, then this demonstrates the value of 
opening up data to more 'eyes'. Not sure how we could collate all lists 
of anomalies to demonstrate this to government.


On 06/07/2020 12:09, Nick wrote:
I went for the crude approach as my computer is not that powerful, so 
I split the CSV into chunks and imported batches into QGIS with 
county/postcode boundaries as my interest is trying to understand how 
the UPRNs have been batched. Not elegant but means that I now can 
focus on our area and identify those UPRNs that are most useful to me 
for plotting missing rural properties. I can then write a script to 
only give me those UPRNs of interest. As I say, crude but useful to me 
as I can now start to match addresses to UPRN when I add properties.


On 05/07/2020 20:56, Kai Michael Poppe - OSM wrote:

On 05.07.2020 18:45, Kai Michael Poppe - OSM wrote:

On 05.07.2020 17:51, Andy Mabbett wrote:

Naive question - can that be added as a layer in JOSM? If so, how?

I'll have to check whether I can manage that anyway with the new server
now. Will come back to this.

Meh. 3 hours in, every possible lead I had didn't bring me closer to
setting up the UPRN data in the same way.

Having 6 GiB of GeoPackage or 2 GiB of MySQL data doesn't make working
with the data any easier.

I will look out for help from the GeoServer people during the week,
watch this space :)

K

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Re: [Talk-GB] UPRN Locations Map


2020-07-06

Thread
Nick

I went for the crude approach as my computer is not that powerful, so I 
split the CSV into chunks and imported batches into QGIS with 
county/postcode boundaries as my interest is trying to understand how 
the UPRNs have been batched. Not elegant but means that I now can focus 
on our area and identify those UPRNs that are most useful to me for 
plotting missing rural properties. I can then write a script to only 
give me those UPRNs of interest. As I say, crude but useful to me as I 
can now start to match addresses to UPRN when I add properties.


On 05/07/2020 20:56, Kai Michael Poppe - OSM wrote:

On 05.07.2020 18:45, Kai Michael Poppe - OSM wrote:

On 05.07.2020 17:51, Andy Mabbett wrote:

Naive question - can that be added as a layer in JOSM? If so, how?

I'll have to check whether I can manage that anyway with the new server
now. Will come back to this.

Meh. 3 hours in, every possible lead I had didn't bring me closer to
setting up the UPRN data in the same way.

Having 6 GiB of GeoPackage or 2 GiB of MySQL data doesn't make working
with the data any easier.

I will look out for help from the GeoServer people during the week,
watch this space :)

K

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Re: [Talk-GB] UPRN Locations Map


2020-07-05

Thread
Kai Michael Poppe - OSM


On 05.07.2020 18:45, Kai Michael Poppe - OSM wrote:
> On 05.07.2020 17:51, Andy Mabbett wrote:

>> Naive question - can that be added as a layer in JOSM? If so, how?

> I'll have to check whether I can manage that anyway with the new server
> now. Will come back to this.

Meh. 3 hours in, every possible lead I had didn't bring me closer to
setting up the UPRN data in the same way.

Having 6 GiB of GeoPackage or 2 GiB of MySQL data doesn't make working
with the data any easier.

I will look out for help from the GeoServer people during the week,
watch this space :)

K

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Re: [Talk-GB] UPRN Locations Map


2020-07-05

Thread
Robert Skedgell

On 05/07/2020 17:58, Mark Goodge wrote:
> 
> 
> On 05/07/2020 17:45, Kai Michael Poppe - OSM wrote:
>> On 05.07.2020 17:51, Andy Mabbett wrote:
>>
 I've set up a quick slippy map with the UPRN locations shown:

 https://osm.mathmos.net/addresses/uprn/ (zoom in to level 16 to show
 the data)
>>>
>>> Naive question - can that be added as a layer in JOSM? If so, how?
>>
>> Yes and no. The UPRN data is also available as a GeoPackage (just like
>> USRN), yet when I tried this morning, I was unable to make to GeoServer
>> deliver the data correctly.
> 
> Just out of interest, is there any simple way to export data from
> GeoPackage (eg, to GML or GeoJSON) via the command line on Linux? I've
> tried ogr2ogr, but that doesn't seem to recognise GeoPackage as a
> source. I can do it manually by loading it into QGIS desktop and then
> exporting it, but I'd prefer something I can automate.
> 
> Mark
> 

This worked for me to import a copy of the USRN GeoPackage file into my
local OSM database:

ogr2ogr -f PGDump -s_srs EPSG:27700 -t_srs EPSG:3857 \
osopenusrn_202007.sql osopenusrn_202007.gpkg

Is it possible that your installation of GDAL doesn't include support
for the GPKG vector driver?

-- 
Robert Skedgell (rskedgell)

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Re: [Talk-GB] UPRN Locations Map


2020-07-05

Thread
Mark Goodge




On 05/07/2020 17:45, Kai Michael Poppe - OSM wrote:

On 05.07.2020 17:51, Andy Mabbett wrote:


I've set up a quick slippy map with the UPRN locations shown:

https://osm.mathmos.net/addresses/uprn/ (zoom in to level 16 to show the data)


Naive question - can that be added as a layer in JOSM? If so, how?


Yes and no. The UPRN data is also available as a GeoPackage (just like
USRN), yet when I tried this morning, I was unable to make to GeoServer
deliver the data correctly.


Just out of interest, is there any simple way to export data from 
GeoPackage (eg, to GML or GeoJSON) via the command line on Linux? I've 
tried ogr2ogr, but that doesn't seem to recognise GeoPackage as a 
source. I can do it manually by loading it into QGIS desktop and then 
exporting it, but I'd prefer something I can automate.


Mark


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Re: [Talk-GB] UPRN Locations Map


2020-07-05

Thread
Andy Mabbett

On Thu, 2 Jul 2020 at 17:38, Robert Whittaker (OSM lists)
 wrote:

> I've set up a quick slippy map with the UPRN locations shown:
>
> https://osm.mathmos.net/addresses/uprn/ (zoom in to level 16 to show the data)

Naive question - can that be added as a layer in JOSM? If so, how?

-- 
Andy Mabbett
@pigsonthewing
http://pigsonthewing.org.uk

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Re: [Talk-GB] UPRN Locations Map


2020-07-04

Thread
Lester Caine


On 04/07/2020 23:14, Cj Malone wrote:

On Sat, 2020-07-04 at 22:24 +0100, Lester Caine wrote:

What is needed is a means of adding LAYERS of data which can be
managed either via third party data sets, or manual edited using
existing tools to add data that is missing from the narrow view
confined to 'current' objects ...


If I understand you right, I like the idea of this, for example a layer
of bus stops in the UK would be sourced from NapTAN. That layer would
be kept up to date with NapTAN (most bus stops in OSM are a decade old,
unmodified, not validated) and OSM mappers could add
corrections/modifications.
Potentially we could have a line of communication to NapTAN to inform
them of errors in there dataset.

It'll be hard to change some peoples minds, but it's worth discussing.


That is one example and if editing the data can be carried out using 
existing tools then new data sets can be created in a similar way. My 
own tools for handling NLPG data was targeted to allow councils to 
automatically create update data sets as they create new uprn's or 
correct existing ones.


But my own interest is not so much the independent layers like NapTAN 
but being able to update current records with historic details such as 
start_dates which apply to CURRENT objects, but also maintain data that 
has expired due to end_date.


--
Lester Caine - G8HFL
-
Contact - https://lsces.uk/wiki/Contact
L.S.Caine Electronic Services - https://lsces.uk
Model Engineers Digital Workshop - https://medw.uk
Rainbow Digital Media - https://rainbowdigitalmedia.uk

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Re: [Talk-GB] UPRN Locations Map


2020-07-04

Thread
Cj Malone

On Sat, 2020-07-04 at 22:24 +0100, Lester Caine wrote:
> What is needed is a means of adding LAYERS of data which can be
> managed either via third party data sets, or manual edited using
> existing tools to add data that is missing from the narrow view
> confined to 'current' objects ...

If I understand you right, I like the idea of this, for example a layer
of bus stops in the UK would be sourced from NapTAN. That layer would
be kept up to date with NapTAN (most bus stops in OSM are a decade old,
unmodified, not validated) and OSM mappers could add
corrections/modifications.
Potentially we could have a line of communication to NapTAN to inform
them of errors in there dataset.

It'll be hard to change some peoples minds, but it's worth discussing.

Cj


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Re: [Talk-GB] UPRN Locations Map


2020-07-04

Thread
Lester Caine


On 04/07/2020 20:33, David Woolley wrote:

On 04/07/2020 18:24, Lester Caine wrote:
The current 'OHM' is not a layer that can be easily combined with the 
current 'OSM' layer. Large sections of the current data are simply 
cloned into OHM


I'm not referring to OHM; I'm referring to the main OSM map.  At least 
since September 2012, OSM has the complete back history, and, as far as 
I can see, you can use overpass API to retrieve the map as of any date 
and time since then.


BUT you can't upgrade the data in that history, only access previous 
data without any reference to if it is correct or not. OHM is not a 
solution to add the missing history, or correcting that history which 
was removed because of mistakes. It is simply a record of what was done 
with all it's mistakes ...


What is needed is a means of adding LAYERS of data which can be managed 
either via third party data sets, or manual edited using existing tools 
to add data that is missing from the narrow view confined to 'current' 
objects ...


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Re: [Talk-GB] UPRN Locations Map


2020-07-04

Thread
David Woolley


On 04/07/2020 18:24, Lester Caine wrote:
The current 'OHM' is not a layer that can be easily combined with the 
current 'OSM' layer. Large sections of the current data are simply 
cloned into OHM


I'm not referring to OHM; I'm referring to the main OSM map.  At least 
since September 2012, OSM has the complete back history, and, as far as 
I can see, you can use overpass API to retrieve the map as of any date 
and time since then.


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Re: [Talk-GB] UPRN Locations Map


2020-07-04

Thread
Lester Caine


On 04/07/2020 12:54, David Woolley wrote:
At the very least data currently live in on a 'current' view should be 
automatically filed to an historic layer when it is replaced


How does this differ from how OSM already works?  You can already create 
versions of the map at any point in its history, except where data has 
been redacted for legal reasons.


The current 'OHM' is not a layer that can be easily combined with the 
current 'OSM' layer. Large sections of the current data are simply 
cloned into OHM anyway. Providing an historic layer which only holds the 
data that has changed over time AND using the same tools to expand on 
that historic data as are used to map current data removes another 
hurdle to maintenance. If third party data such as NLPG can be processed 
to provide it's data as another layer which can then be combined in the 
one view then it removes the need to simply import large data sets. One 
simply uses which set of layers you want ...


Of cause the other approach is simply merge all available data ... past, 
present and future ... into the one humungus database and navigate the 
problems of maintaining potentially thousands of data sets in sync with 
the 'master' copy.


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Re: [Talk-GB] UPRN Locations Map


2020-07-04

Thread
Nick


Hi Mark

I was wondering in the future if street names etc. could be derived from 
Mapillary (attribution source=Mapillary) where images exist?


Cheers

Nick

On 04/07/2020 12:02, Mark Goodge wrote:



On 04/07/2020 06:16, Kai Michael Poppe - OSM wrote:


So, a few months ago I stumbled upon a note
(https://www.openstreetmap.org/note/2158104#map=19/51.49829/-0.32762)
that StreetComplete left saying, that the street couldn't be given a
name because there's none shown.

Back then, I used streetmap.co.uk
(https://www.streetmap.co.uk/map.srf?X=516161=179063=Y=106) in
hopes to finding something - but only got "FAI RD." which - to me -
makes no sense.

Also, using https://os.openstreetmap.org/ makes it look like that's just
an access path to houses around it, which is (IMHO) not entirely true as
the way directly linking Southdown Av. and Boston Rd. clearly is
publicly accessible.

Now, using the above mentioned map
(https://osm.mathmos.net/addresses/uprn/#19/51.4983/-0.3279) I now know,
that this street has the UPRN ID 12145988.


That may not be the UPRN of the path or street. It may be the UPRN of 
the open space that the path runs through. The path is more likely to 
have a USRN (unique street reference number) than a UPRN.


To find the USRN of the path, you need to use the lookup tables 
supplied by OS. Doing that, we find that the associated USRN is 20602512.


Now, there's no open data source which will directly tell you the name 
of a USRN (at least, not until we start putting them into OSM). The 
long way of doing so is to find the matching LineString in OS OpenMap 
Local, and see what name it has there.


However, it can be done directly via a non-open source. If you go to 
https://www.findmystreet.co.uk/map and zoom in on the location, then 
click the street to bring up the USRN details, it will give the name 
(and also confirm that the USRN from the OS lookup table is correct). 
Or use the search box and search for USRN 20602512.


From an OSM point of view, that would normally be a dead end. Even if 
you can view the information on a non-open source, you can't 
incorporate it into OSM. However, in this case, we already have an 
abbreviated name from an open source. So all we are learning from the 
closed source is the full text of the abbreviation. Whether that makes 
it acceptable to include the full name into OSM is a matter of debate. 
I'll leave that decision up to others, but, for reference, the name of 
the street is Fairfield Road.


Mark

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Re: [Talk-GB] UPRN Locations Map


2020-07-04

Thread
Kai Michael Poppe - OSM

Hi Marc,

Thanks for the reply. I'll make it my task to find an out of date copyright map 
that brings the full name, wherever I might find it :)

Have a great weekend!

Kai

Am 4. Juli 2020 13:02:59 MESZ schrieb Mark Goodge :
>
>
>On 04/07/2020 06:16, Kai Michael Poppe - OSM wrote:
>> 
>> So, a few months ago I stumbled upon a note
>> (https://www.openstreetmap.org/note/2158104#map=19/51.49829/-0.32762)
>> that StreetComplete left saying, that the street couldn't be given a
>> name because there's none shown.
>> 
>> Back then, I used streetmap.co.uk
>> (https://www.streetmap.co.uk/map.srf?X=516161=179063=Y=106) in
>> hopes to finding something - but only got "FAI RD." which - to me -
>> makes no sense.
>> 
>> Also, using https://os.openstreetmap.org/ makes it look like that's just
>> an access path to houses around it, which is (IMHO) not entirely true as
>> the way directly linking Southdown Av. and Boston Rd. clearly is
>> publicly accessible.
>> 
>> Now, using the above mentioned map
>> (https://osm.mathmos.net/addresses/uprn/#19/51.4983/-0.3279) I now know,
>> that this street has the UPRN ID 12145988.
>
>That may not be the UPRN of the path or street. It may be the UPRN of 
>the open space that the path runs through. The path is more likely to 
>have a USRN (unique street reference number) than a UPRN.
>
>To find the USRN of the path, you need to use the lookup tables supplied 
>by OS. Doing that, we find that the associated USRN is 20602512.
>
>Now, there's no open data source which will directly tell you the name 
>of a USRN (at least, not until we start putting them into OSM). The long 
>way of doing so is to find the matching LineString in OS OpenMap Local, 
>and see what name it has there.
>
>However, it can be done directly via a non-open source. If you go to 
>https://www.findmystreet.co.uk/map and zoom in on the location, then 
>click the street to bring up the USRN details, it will give the name 
>(and also confirm that the USRN from the OS lookup table is correct). Or 
>use the search box and search for USRN 20602512.
>
> From an OSM point of view, that would normally be a dead end. Even if 
>you can view the information on a non-open source, you can't incorporate 
>it into OSM. However, in this case, we already have an abbreviated name 
>from an open source. So all we are learning from the closed source is 
>the full text of the abbreviation. Whether that makes it acceptable to 
>include the full name into OSM is a matter of debate. I'll leave that 
>decision up to others, but, for reference, the name of the street is 
>Fairfield Road.
>
>Mark
>
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Re: [Talk-GB] UPRN Locations Map


2020-07-04

Thread
SK53

I've tried to match UPRNs to buildings 1:1 in Nottingham and therefore
provide an address lookup. Here's the first stab of 35 k objects:
https://raw.githubusercontent.com/SK53/osm_uprn/master/ng_osm_uprn_lu.csv

Jerry

On Sat, 4 Jul 2020 at 12:28, Mark Goodge  wrote:

>
>
> On 04/07/2020 12:16, Stephen Knox wrote:
> > I don't think there is value in bringing in the points themselves but
> > I think there definitely is value in tagging existing buildings /
> > locations with the UPRN where it is incontrovertible - e.g. a single
> > unit house. This is the vast majority of the buildings in the UK, if
> > not the addresses. There are difficulties to overcome with multiple
> > unit buildings, that probably needs a lot of further thought and
> > possibly further open data releases to do properly, which may appear
> > eventually. How historical values are managed is also a consideration
> > to deal with.
>
> I agree. I think we have to bear in mind that UPRNs will become
> increasingly important to map users, and having them in the tag data
> will be useful. If it's a known fact about a building, then it does no
> harm, and will be potentially beneficial, to tag the building with the
> UPRN.
>
> But we do need to be wary of historic data and overlapping UPRNs. Unless
> we have incontrovertible local knowledge from a compatible source, then
> we shouldn't add a UPRN tag if the open data is in any way ambiguous.
>
> The same applies to USRNs. Where we can unambiguously match a road or
> street on OSM to a USRN, then we should add the tag. But only if we can
> be certain.
>
> > Arguably of more use for OSM for the here and now is the change to
> > the licence of the UK Land Registry INSPIRE polygons to OGL, which I
> > haven't seen much or any discussion of on this list. This means that
> > we now have an authoritative reference for boundaries and can use
> > that to alter and check geometries of things like semi-detached house
> > boundaries, gardens, hedges
> > etc.https://www.gov.uk/guidance/inspire-index-polygons-spatial-data.
>
> I agree with that, too.
>
> Mark
>
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Re: [Talk-GB] UPRN Locations Map


2020-07-04

Thread
David Woolley


On 04/07/2020 11:45, Lester Caine wrote:
At the very least data currently live in on a 'current' view should be 
automatically filed to an historic layer when it is replaced


How does this differ from how OSM already works?  You can already create 
versions of the map at any point in its history, except where data has 
been redacted for legal reasons.


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Re: [Talk-GB] UPRN Locations Map


2020-07-04

Thread
Ed Loach

I'd suggest only add it to buildings where the address already exists and there 
is a one to one mapping, so we can use unmatched values to see where needs 
surveying.

Ed

Get Outlook for Android


From: Stephen Knox 
Sent: Saturday, July 4, 2020 12:16:38 PM
To: talk-gb@openstreetmap.org 
Subject: [Talk-GB] UPRN Locations Map


On 04/07/2020 08:51, Stephen Colebourne wrote:
> I'm not convinced this data should be pulled into OSM. It would add a
> lot of clutter that users would be tempted to move around or delete. In
> areas like mine where I've added thousands of buildings and addresses
> from surveys, it would be making matters worse not better. It would be a
> disincentive to adding more buildings with addresses as the additional
> nodes would get in the way of editing, and because they represent a semi
> random set of things. Because the dataset is fixed I would think it
> should be a layer used alongside OSM by those tools that think it adds
> value. Ideally, OSM itself should support layers, but AFAIK it doesn't.

I don't think there is value in bringing in the points themselves but I think 
there definitely is value in tagging existing buildings / locations with the 
UPRN where it is incontrovertible - e.g. a single unit house. This is the vast 
majority of the buildings in the UK, if not the addresses. There are 
difficulties to overcome with multiple unit buildings, that probably needs a 
lot of further thought and possibly further open data releases to do properly, 
which may appear eventually. How historical values are managed is also a 
consideration to deal with.

UPRNs will not bring any obvious value initially, but will gradually make OSM 
much more useful for the commercial sector, hopefully for everyone's benefit, 
as they can match IDs from proprietary datasets with Open OSM data, and it also 
enables OSM to be used an an authoritative ID for every building - neither 
postcodes nor addresses do that.

Arguably of more use for OSM for the here and now is the change to the licence 
of the UK Land Registry INSPIRE polygons to OGL, which I haven't seen much or 
any discussion of on this list. This means that we now have an authoritative 
reference for boundaries and can use that to alter and check geometries of 
things like semi-detached house boundaries, gardens, hedges etc. 
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/inspire-index-polygons-spatial-data.

Stephen


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Re: [Talk-GB] UPRN Locations Map


2020-07-04

Thread
Mark Goodge




On 04/07/2020 12:16, Stephen Knox wrote:

I don't think there is value in bringing in the points themselves but
I think there definitely is value in tagging existing buildings /
locations with the UPRN where it is incontrovertible - e.g. a single
unit house. This is the vast majority of the buildings in the UK, if
not the addresses. There are difficulties to overcome with multiple
unit buildings, that probably needs a lot of further thought and
possibly further open data releases to do properly, which may appear
eventually. How historical values are managed is also a consideration
to deal with.


I agree. I think we have to bear in mind that UPRNs will become 
increasingly important to map users, and having them in the tag data 
will be useful. If it's a known fact about a building, then it does no 
harm, and will be potentially beneficial, to tag the building with the UPRN.


But we do need to be wary of historic data and overlapping UPRNs. Unless 
we have incontrovertible local knowledge from a compatible source, then 
we shouldn't add a UPRN tag if the open data is in any way ambiguous.


The same applies to USRNs. Where we can unambiguously match a road or 
street on OSM to a USRN, then we should add the tag. But only if we can 
be certain.



Arguably of more use for OSM for the here and now is the change to
the licence of the UK Land Registry INSPIRE polygons to OGL, which I
haven't seen much or any discussion of on this list. This means that
we now have an authoritative reference for boundaries and can use
that to alter and check geometries of things like semi-detached house
boundaries, gardens, hedges
etc.https://www.gov.uk/guidance/inspire-index-polygons-spatial-data.


I agree with that, too.

Mark

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Re: [Talk-GB] UPRN Locations Map


2020-07-04

Thread
Mark Goodge




On 04/07/2020 06:16, Kai Michael Poppe - OSM wrote:


So, a few months ago I stumbled upon a note
(https://www.openstreetmap.org/note/2158104#map=19/51.49829/-0.32762)
that StreetComplete left saying, that the street couldn't be given a
name because there's none shown.

Back then, I used streetmap.co.uk
(https://www.streetmap.co.uk/map.srf?X=516161=179063=Y=106) in
hopes to finding something - but only got "FAI RD." which - to me -
makes no sense.

Also, using https://os.openstreetmap.org/ makes it look like that's just
an access path to houses around it, which is (IMHO) not entirely true as
the way directly linking Southdown Av. and Boston Rd. clearly is
publicly accessible.

Now, using the above mentioned map
(https://osm.mathmos.net/addresses/uprn/#19/51.4983/-0.3279) I now know,
that this street has the UPRN ID 12145988.


That may not be the UPRN of the path or street. It may be the UPRN of 
the open space that the path runs through. The path is more likely to 
have a USRN (unique street reference number) than a UPRN.


To find the USRN of the path, you need to use the lookup tables supplied 
by OS. Doing that, we find that the associated USRN is 20602512.


Now, there's no open data source which will directly tell you the name 
of a USRN (at least, not until we start putting them into OSM). The long 
way of doing so is to find the matching LineString in OS OpenMap Local, 
and see what name it has there.


However, it can be done directly via a non-open source. If you go to 
https://www.findmystreet.co.uk/map and zoom in on the location, then 
click the street to bring up the USRN details, it will give the name 
(and also confirm that the USRN from the OS lookup table is correct). Or 
use the search box and search for USRN 20602512.


From an OSM point of view, that would normally be a dead end. Even if 
you can view the information on a non-open source, you can't incorporate 
it into OSM. However, in this case, we already have an abbreviated name 
from an open source. So all we are learning from the closed source is 
the full text of the abbreviation. Whether that makes it acceptable to 
include the full name into OSM is a matter of debate. I'll leave that 
decision up to others, but, for reference, the name of the street is 
Fairfield Road.


Mark

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Re: [Talk-GB] UPRN Locations Map


2020-07-04

Thread
Lester Caine


On 04/07/2020 08:51, Stephen Colebourne wrote:
I'm not convinced this data should be pulled into OSM. It would add a 
lot of clutter that users would be tempted to move around or delete. In 
areas like mine where I've added thousands of buildings and addresses 
from surveys, it would be making matters worse not better. It would be a 
disincentive to adding more buildings with addresses as the additional 
nodes would get in the way of editing, and because they represent a semi 
random set of things. Because the dataset is fixed I would think it 
should be a layer used alongside OSM by those tools that think it adds 
value. Ideally, OSM itself should support layers, but AFAIK it doesn't.


That about sums it up. The plans themselves may be a starting point 
where there is nothing, but ALL that needs importing are the references 
being added to existing objects in OSM. As you say, the data in the NLPG 
data set is 'read only' and so anybody 'editing mistakes' may not 
understand that it is displaying what is the 'legal' situation on the 
ground. Any mistakes need to be reported to the right authority.


That OSM does not support layers is now a major stumbling block. At the 
very least data currently live in on a 'current' view should be 
automatically filed to an historic layer when it is replaced, but with 
the growing volume of other data sources with detailed graphical 
content, being able to combine layers of data should be a high priority. 
There should then be no need to import snapshots of those managed data 
sets and have to maintain mechanisms to keep the two in sync. Just use 
the raw data direct in parallel with the unique OSM data.


It is worth pointing out that unless something has changed drastically 
in the last few years, then the range of fine detail contained in the 
NLPG varies vastly between the various council sources. I think I have 
seen comments about 'only having a node' and not providing enough detail 
to identify different references. Certainly 10 years ago only a small 
number of councils actually had plans of the extent of each council tax 
parcel and other fine detail. Most just had a node somewhere in the 
right area. Many were reliant on paid services from OS for map data and 
so did not have a licence to copy that data over. HOPEFULLY today that 
particular problem has been resolved.


I've not had time yet to look at just what is available against the now 
somewhat out of data local extracts I have from the original NLPG dataset.


--
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Re: [Talk-GB] UPRN Locations Map


2020-07-04

Thread
SK53

The new Leicester Coronavirus Regulations

provide some interesting test data, ostensibly under a Open Government
Licence, of 24 pages of postcodes and what are obviously individual
properties where postcodes are split by the boundary captured by querying
UPRNs (telephone & post boxes are a useful clue). For instance Welford Road
in Wigston (on p. 34) corresponds to this area
 on Robert's
site. Postcode LE18 3TE seems to extend from the junction of Welford Road
with Guthlaxton Lane down to the Navigation at Kilby Bridge. I've just
added the telephone (from this Mapillary
 image) which is
presumably UPRN 10025590850.

Given this looks to have been created by querying for objects via MasterMap
or similar I imagine the actual data is in practice covered by GeoPlace &
OSGB restrictions.

Nonetheless there are a few intriguing things mentioned which I cant locate
on OSM, including Lime Delph Road (which is probably the frontage road on
the new housing estate with unnamed road on the E). Nor is the nursery
obvious.

Jerry

On Sat, 4 Jul 2020 at 09:48, Jez Nicholson  wrote:

> From Wikidata, https://m.wikidata.org/wiki/Property:P8399 if you query
> the UK Flood service with the UPRN you can see more detail on the property
>
> On Sat, 4 Jul 2020, 08:52 Stephen Colebourne, 
> wrote:
>
>> I'm not convinced this data should be pulled into OSM. It would add a lot
>> of clutter that users would be tempted to move around or delete. In areas
>> like mine where I've added thousands of buildings and addresses from
>> surveys, it would be making matters worse not better. It would be a
>> disincentive to adding more buildings with addresses as the additional
>> nodes would get in the way of editing, and because they represent a semi
>> random set of things. Because the dataset is fixed I would think it should
>> be a layer used alongside OSM by those tools that think it adds value.
>> Ideally, OSM itself should support layers, but AFAIK it doesn't.
>> Stephen
>> PS. Thanks for the slippy map!
>>
>> On Thu, 2 Jul 2020, 17:38 Robert Whittaker (OSM lists), <
>> robert.whittaker+...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I'm not completely sure if/how we can best make use of the new OS
>>> OpenData (UPRNs, USRNs and related links) in OpenStreetMap, but as a
>>> first step I've set up a quick slippy map with the UPRN locations
>>> shown:
>>>
>>> https://osm.mathmos.net/addresses/uprn/ (zoom in to level 16 to show
>>> the data)
>>>
>>> The UPRN dataset literally just contains the UPRN number and its
>>> coordinates (both OS National Grid and WGS lat/lon). There are some
>>> additional linking datasets that link these ids to other ids (e.g.
>>> USRNs, TOIDs). But no address information is available directly. (You
>>> may be able to get street names by matching to OS Open Roads via TOIDs
>>> though. Coupled with Code-Point Open, you might be able to assign
>>> quite a few postcodes in cases where there's only one unit for a whole
>>> street.)
>>>
>>> The UPRN data has already helped me find a mapping error I made
>>> locally though -- it looks like I'd accidentally missed drawing a
>>> house outline from aerial imagery, and also classified a large garage
>>> a few doors down as a house. The two errors cancelled out when the
>>> houses were numbered sequentially, so I didn't notice until now. Today
>>> though I spotted a UPRN marker over some blank space on the map, and
>>> no marker over the mapped house that's probably a garage.
>>>
>>> Now a few initial thoughts on the data that I've explored so far:
>>>
>>> I believe that the UPRNs are assigned by local authorities, so
>>> conventions may vary from place to place. I don't know who actually
>>> assigns the coordinates (authority or OS). Looking at those for rows
>>> of houses around me, they don't seem to have been automatically given
>>> coordinates from the house footprint, it looks more like someone
>>> manually clicking on a map.
>>>
>>> The UPRN dataset should include all addressable properties. It is also
>>> ahead of reality in some places, as it includes locations for houses
>>> on a new development near me that have yet to be built yet. For blocks
>>> of apartments/flats, the UPRN nodes may all have the same coordinates
>>> or may be displaced from each other, possibly in an artificial manner.
>>>
>>> Other objects also appear to have UPRNs. Likely things I've noticed so
>>> far include: car parks, post boxes, telephone boxes (even after
>>> they've been removed), electricity sub-stations, roads and recorded
>>> footpaths (the UPRN locations seem to be at one end of the street, so
>>> usually lie at a junction), recreation grounds / play areas,
>>> floodlight poles (around sports pitches), and allotments. There's no
>>> information about the object type in the UPRN data unfortunately.
>>>
>>> Anyway, 



Re: [Talk-GB] UPRN Locations Map


2020-07-04

Thread
Jez Nicholson

>From Wikidata, https://m.wikidata.org/wiki/Property:P8399 if you query the
UK Flood service with the UPRN you can see more detail on the property

On Sat, 4 Jul 2020, 08:52 Stephen Colebourne,  wrote:

> I'm not convinced this data should be pulled into OSM. It would add a lot
> of clutter that users would be tempted to move around or delete. In areas
> like mine where I've added thousands of buildings and addresses from
> surveys, it would be making matters worse not better. It would be a
> disincentive to adding more buildings with addresses as the additional
> nodes would get in the way of editing, and because they represent a semi
> random set of things. Because the dataset is fixed I would think it should
> be a layer used alongside OSM by those tools that think it adds value.
> Ideally, OSM itself should support layers, but AFAIK it doesn't.
> Stephen
> PS. Thanks for the slippy map!
>
> On Thu, 2 Jul 2020, 17:38 Robert Whittaker (OSM lists), <
> robert.whittaker+...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I'm not completely sure if/how we can best make use of the new OS
>> OpenData (UPRNs, USRNs and related links) in OpenStreetMap, but as a
>> first step I've set up a quick slippy map with the UPRN locations
>> shown:
>>
>> https://osm.mathmos.net/addresses/uprn/ (zoom in to level 16 to show the
>> data)
>>
>> The UPRN dataset literally just contains the UPRN number and its
>> coordinates (both OS National Grid and WGS lat/lon). There are some
>> additional linking datasets that link these ids to other ids (e.g.
>> USRNs, TOIDs). But no address information is available directly. (You
>> may be able to get street names by matching to OS Open Roads via TOIDs
>> though. Coupled with Code-Point Open, you might be able to assign
>> quite a few postcodes in cases where there's only one unit for a whole
>> street.)
>>
>> The UPRN data has already helped me find a mapping error I made
>> locally though -- it looks like I'd accidentally missed drawing a
>> house outline from aerial imagery, and also classified a large garage
>> a few doors down as a house. The two errors cancelled out when the
>> houses were numbered sequentially, so I didn't notice until now. Today
>> though I spotted a UPRN marker over some blank space on the map, and
>> no marker over the mapped house that's probably a garage.
>>
>> Now a few initial thoughts on the data that I've explored so far:
>>
>> I believe that the UPRNs are assigned by local authorities, so
>> conventions may vary from place to place. I don't know who actually
>> assigns the coordinates (authority or OS). Looking at those for rows
>> of houses around me, they don't seem to have been automatically given
>> coordinates from the house footprint, it looks more like someone
>> manually clicking on a map.
>>
>> The UPRN dataset should include all addressable properties. It is also
>> ahead of reality in some places, as it includes locations for houses
>> on a new development near me that have yet to be built yet. For blocks
>> of apartments/flats, the UPRN nodes may all have the same coordinates
>> or may be displaced from each other, possibly in an artificial manner.
>>
>> Other objects also appear to have UPRNs. Likely things I've noticed so
>> far include: car parks, post boxes, telephone boxes (even after
>> they've been removed), electricity sub-stations, roads and recorded
>> footpaths (the UPRN locations seem to be at one end of the street, so
>> usually lie at a junction), recreation grounds / play areas,
>> floodlight poles (around sports pitches), and allotments. There's no
>> information about the object type in the UPRN data unfortunately.
>>
>> Anyway, I hope some of this is useful / interesting. I hope to be on
>> the OSMUK call on Saturday to discuss things further. Best wishes,
>>
>> Robert.
>>
>> --
>> Robert Whittaker
>> https://osm.mathmos.net/
>>
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Re: [Talk-GB] UPRN Locations Map


2020-07-04

Thread
Stephen Colebourne

I'm not convinced this data should be pulled into OSM. It would add a lot
of clutter that users would be tempted to move around or delete. In areas
like mine where I've added thousands of buildings and addresses from
surveys, it would be making matters worse not better. It would be a
disincentive to adding more buildings with addresses as the additional
nodes would get in the way of editing, and because they represent a semi
random set of things. Because the dataset is fixed I would think it should
be a layer used alongside OSM by those tools that think it adds value.
Ideally, OSM itself should support layers, but AFAIK it doesn't.
Stephen
PS. Thanks for the slippy map!

On Thu, 2 Jul 2020, 17:38 Robert Whittaker (OSM lists), <
robert.whittaker+...@gmail.com> wrote:

> I'm not completely sure if/how we can best make use of the new OS
> OpenData (UPRNs, USRNs and related links) in OpenStreetMap, but as a
> first step I've set up a quick slippy map with the UPRN locations
> shown:
>
> https://osm.mathmos.net/addresses/uprn/ (zoom in to level 16 to show the
> data)
>
> The UPRN dataset literally just contains the UPRN number and its
> coordinates (both OS National Grid and WGS lat/lon). There are some
> additional linking datasets that link these ids to other ids (e.g.
> USRNs, TOIDs). But no address information is available directly. (You
> may be able to get street names by matching to OS Open Roads via TOIDs
> though. Coupled with Code-Point Open, you might be able to assign
> quite a few postcodes in cases where there's only one unit for a whole
> street.)
>
> The UPRN data has already helped me find a mapping error I made
> locally though -- it looks like I'd accidentally missed drawing a
> house outline from aerial imagery, and also classified a large garage
> a few doors down as a house. The two errors cancelled out when the
> houses were numbered sequentially, so I didn't notice until now. Today
> though I spotted a UPRN marker over some blank space on the map, and
> no marker over the mapped house that's probably a garage.
>
> Now a few initial thoughts on the data that I've explored so far:
>
> I believe that the UPRNs are assigned by local authorities, so
> conventions may vary from place to place. I don't know who actually
> assigns the coordinates (authority or OS). Looking at those for rows
> of houses around me, they don't seem to have been automatically given
> coordinates from the house footprint, it looks more like someone
> manually clicking on a map.
>
> The UPRN dataset should include all addressable properties. It is also
> ahead of reality in some places, as it includes locations for houses
> on a new development near me that have yet to be built yet. For blocks
> of apartments/flats, the UPRN nodes may all have the same coordinates
> or may be displaced from each other, possibly in an artificial manner.
>
> Other objects also appear to have UPRNs. Likely things I've noticed so
> far include: car parks, post boxes, telephone boxes (even after
> they've been removed), electricity sub-stations, roads and recorded
> footpaths (the UPRN locations seem to be at one end of the street, so
> usually lie at a junction), recreation grounds / play areas,
> floodlight poles (around sports pitches), and allotments. There's no
> information about the object type in the UPRN data unfortunately.
>
> Anyway, I hope some of this is useful / interesting. I hope to be on
> the OSMUK call on Saturday to discuss things further. Best wishes,
>
> Robert.
>
> --
> Robert Whittaker
> https://osm.mathmos.net/
>
> ___
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> Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org
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>
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Re: [Talk-GB] UPRN Locations Map


2020-07-03

Thread
Kai Michael Poppe - OSM


On 03.07.2020 12:57, Andy Mabbett wrote:

>> https://osm.mathmos.net/addresses/uprn/ (zoom in to level 16 to show the 
>> data)
> 
> Thank you.

Great tool!

So, a few months ago I stumbled upon a note
(https://www.openstreetmap.org/note/2158104#map=19/51.49829/-0.32762)
that StreetComplete left saying, that the street couldn't be given a
name because there's none shown.

Back then, I used streetmap.co.uk
(https://www.streetmap.co.uk/map.srf?X=516161=179063=Y=106) in
hopes to finding something - but only got "FAI RD." which - to me -
makes no sense.

Also, using https://os.openstreetmap.org/ makes it look like that's just
an access path to houses around it, which is (IMHO) not entirely true as
the way directly linking Southdown Av. and Boston Rd. clearly is
publicly accessible.

Now, using the above mentioned map
(https://osm.mathmos.net/addresses/uprn/#19/51.4983/-0.3279) I now know,
that this street has the UPRN ID 12145988.

Is there any way to go from here, solving the particular problem of
naming the way correctly?

If I've overlooked a blatantly clear answer to this question on the
list, apologies, it's been a rough week!

Kai

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Re: [Talk-GB] UPRN Locations Map


2020-07-03

Thread
Mark Goodge



On 03/07/2020 20:37, I wrote:


You could probably also match the names from OS OpenMap using the same 
principle. That doesn't include USRNs, but the LineStrings are likely to 
match the Open USRN geometry pretty closely. Either way, it should be 
possible to assign names to Open USRNs simply by overlaying them on a 
map which already has names.


Just for reference, I've just compared the LineStrings for the street 
where I live in both Open USRN and OS OpenMap Local. Apart from the fact 
that, for one coordinate pair, OSOML is rounding to two decimal places 
wile Open USRN uses three decimal places, they are identical.


Obviously, that's just one suburban residential street, and other, more 
complex routes may not match so well. But the principle works on a 
sample location, so it's just a case of seeing how consistent it is 
across the entire network. I may have a look at that in more detail next 
week. But I've been working flat out on processing open UPRNs and UPRNs 
since Wednesday, and, right now, it's wine o'clock :-)


Mark

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Re: [Talk-GB] UPRN Locations Map


2020-07-03

Thread
Mark Goodge




On 03/07/2020 11:23, Tony OSM wrote:
I spent part of yesterday navigating the relevant OS and LandRegistry 
sites and trying to figure out what we can do.


We can basically put UPRN and USRN into OSM freely - the license is 
written to enable that.  OS have also separated out the ability to match 
UPRN and USRN to address and street records - essentially they are 
creating an index into their MasterMap products which are behind a 
paywall. So anybody who wants to pay -  possibly Logistics companies - 
can find exactly where their van has to go, more accurate than a postcode.


It should be relatively straightforward to link USRNs to OSM data, since 
the topology will match - most roads don't stack, so where a USRN line 
follows the same route as an OSM way that's tagged as a road then they 
are the same. Where roads do overlap (eg, the A4/M4 double decker in 
West London and various tunnels and flyovers), that should be amenable 
to manual resolution. Once a USRN is matched to an OSM named way then 
that gives us a name for the USRN that's derived independently of 
MasterMap.


You could probably also match the names from OS OpenMap using the same 
principle. That doesn't include USRNs, but the LineStrings are likely to 
match the Open USRN geometry pretty closely. Either way, it should be 
possible to assign names to Open USRNs simply by overlaying them on a 
map which already has names.


(I say "relatively" straightforward as the open USRN dataset is supplied 
as a Geopackage, so using it requires extracting the data from that. 
That's an added layer of irritation, but it's not unsurmountable).


Matching UPRNs to OSM data is likely to be more awkward. In a lot of 
cases, of course, it will be simple enough - where there's just one UPRN 
assigned to what is obviously a distinct building that's been mapped in 
OSM then that UPRN clearly applies to that building. But where there are 
multiple UPRNs allocated to a single building then we would need more 
data to be able to make the correct links. And that data is probably not 
available with a suitable licence.


OS also seem to have been careful not to place UPRN and USRN data into 
their other free products so as to make cross referencing difficult.


UPRNs can be linked to adjacent USRNs via the OS Open Linked Identifiers:

https://osdatahub.os.uk/downloads/open/LIDS

That's helpful, because it tells us which part of the road network the 
local authority responsible for allocating the UPRNs thinks it's on. 
That's not necessarily the same as the street name in the postal 
address, but for physical access (which is what matters for things like 
deliveries and taxis) it's often more useful than a postal address.


Mark

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Re: [Talk-GB] UPRN Locations Map


2020-07-03

Thread
Tony OSM

The £1000 data rules are at https://osdatahub.os.uk/ and the pricing tab 
https://osdatahub.os.uk/plans


States:::


 What is the difference between an OS OpenData plan and a Premium plan?

*Our OS OpenData plan* ensures you only consume OS OpenData. It locks 
down calls to our APIs so that you can never accidentally use or be 
charged for our Premium Data.


The OS OpenData plan is free to use for any purpose, including providing 
services from which you make a profit.


You can always upgrade to a Premium plan later which will unlock our 
Premium Data for you to use.


*Our Premium plan * opens up the use of our Premium Data. This is our 
most detailed mapping and geospatial feature data. You receive £1,000 of 
free Premium Data transactions each month on a use-it-or-lose-it basis. 
Once you've used up your free credit we'll either start charging for 
further Premium Data usage or, if you don't provide payment details, 
we'll pause your ability to make calls to our Premium Data until the 
next month when you receive another £1,000 of free Premium Data^* 
 .




On 03/07/2020 12:28, David Woolley wrote:

On 03/07/2020 11:23, Tony OSM wrote:


There was a reference to £1000 worth of data being made free each 
month to individual users - can't find out how this works yet. This 
may allow us as individuals to populate OSM and OSM essentially 
aggregates the data - rather like postcode data.


Generally reconstructing a database piecemeal is considered no 
different from copying a substantial part in one go.


I suspect the reality with postcodes is that the the Post Office 
doesn't see collection of individual codes from the relevant business 
or resident as a significant risk, as they don't believe anyone will 
construct a sufficiently complete database that way.


Unlike natural features, both postcodes and telephone numbers start 
their life as entries in databases, but both of them need to be known 
to contacts of a person without the need for formally entering into a 
licence agreement.


However, if every user used their free quota of postcode searches each 
day, I think the Post Office would take action.


Normally when limited searches are allowed, there is also a personal 
use only restriction applied.



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Re: [Talk-GB] UPRN Locations Map


2020-07-03

Thread
David Woolley


On 03/07/2020 11:23, Tony OSM wrote:


There was a reference to £1000 worth of data being made free each month 
to individual users - can't find out how this works yet. This may allow 
us as individuals to populate OSM and OSM essentially aggregates the 
data - rather like postcode data.


Generally reconstructing a database piecemeal is considered no different 
from copying a substantial part in one go.


I suspect the reality with postcodes is that the the Post Office doesn't 
see collection of individual codes from the relevant business or 
resident as a significant risk, as they don't believe anyone will 
construct a sufficiently complete database that way.


Unlike natural features, both postcodes and telephone numbers start 
their life as entries in databases, but both of them need to be known to 
contacts of a person without the need for formally entering into a 
licence agreement.


However, if every user used their free quota of postcode searches each 
day, I think the Post Office would take action.


Normally when limited searches are allowed, there is also a personal use 
only restriction applied.



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Re: [Talk-GB] UPRN Locations Map


2020-07-03

Thread
Andy Mabbett

On Thu, 2 Jul 2020 at 17:38, Robert Whittaker (OSM lists)
 wrote:
>
> I've set up a quick slippy map with the UPRN locations shown:
>
> https://osm.mathmos.net/addresses/uprn/ (zoom in to level 16 to show the data)

Thank you.

> The UPRN dataset literally just contains the UPRN number and its
> coordinates (both OS National Grid and WGS lat/lon).

For England at least, UPRNs can be turned into web links, in the format:


https://flood-warning-information.service.gov.uk/long-term-flood-risk/risk?address=100023336956

which allows the address to be verified.

We're planning to import UPRNs into Wikidata; here's the above value,
for example:

   https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q169101#P8399

so for notable buildings at least, a reverse lookup will be possible,
using the Wikidata API, or, for example:

   
https://tools.wmflabs.org/wikidata-todo/resolver.php?prop=P8399=100023336956


-- 
Andy Mabbett
@pigsonthewing
http://pigsonthewing.org.uk

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Re: [Talk-GB] UPRN Locations Map


2020-07-03

Thread
Tony OSM


Thanks Russ - didn't know about https://os.openstreetmap.org/

Free beer or free speech -  I'm looking at.

T

On 03/07/2020 11:35, Russ Garrett wrote:

On Fri, 3 Jul 2020 at 11:24, Tony OSM  wrote:

There was a reference to £1000 worth of data being made free each month
to individual users - can't find out how this works yet. This may allow
us as individuals to populate OSM and OSM essentially aggregates the
data - rather like postcode data. I am researching the site to find out
how this works.

I'm fairly sure that's "free as in beer" and not "free as in speech",
and the data will still be subject to a restrictive license which is
incompatible with OSM.


OS have also made maps downloadable as images 'OS OpenMap Local' - I did
OS square SD, this provides a map picture, I checked out a new housing
estate and it has the street names - not currently in OSM (haven't put
them in yet). So the OS data is useful. For that SD square they provide
hundreds of files based on their method of 10km  map references with 4
sections per 10 km - NW,NE,SW,SE. Not easy to use, an overlay of
sections is required. This is updated regularly so can replace OS Open
Data Streetview which I believe to be no longer updated.

OpenMap Local is already available on https://os.openstreetmap.org/
and presumably it will percolate down into editors in due course.



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Re: [Talk-GB] UPRN Locations Map


2020-07-03

Thread
Nick


Hi Tony

Thanks for that - my thinking have been that when I run my query on a 
single UPRN, I am retrieving the contents of the page as text on my 
personal computer and then processing the data for non-commercial use. 
If I then use that data to create or verify the address on a property 
plotted on OSM is that the issue? To be honest, my personal interest is 
a) getting address data on maps so that it will save lives (I speak from 
personal experience) and b) to check and correct errors in the public 
gazetteer (e.g. OneScotlandGazetteer but also Royal Mail).


It will be interesting if in the future, if calling for emergency 
services people will be asked to give their UPRN.


I actually think that at the root of the problem is the "philosophy of 
what is an address" so that I know how I can add address data to OSM - I 
am happy to acknowledge the source on OSM.


Cheers

Nick
On 03/07/2020 11:23, Tony OSM wrote:
I spent part of yesterday navigating the relevant OS and LandRegistry 
sites and trying to figure out what we can do.


We can basically put UPRN and USRN into OSM freely - the license is 
written to enable that.  OS have also separated out the ability to 
match UPRN and USRN to address and street records - essentially they 
are creating an index into their MasterMap products which are behind a 
paywall. So anybody who wants to pay -  possibly Logistics companies - 
can find exactly where their van has to go, more accurate than a 
postcode.


OS also seem to have been careful not to place UPRN and USRN data into 
their other free products so as to make cross referencing difficult.


There was a reference to £1000 worth of data being made free each 
month to individual users - can't find out how this works yet. This 
may allow us as individuals to populate OSM and OSM essentially 
aggregates the data - rather like postcode data. I am researching the 
site to find out how this works.


OS have also made maps downloadable as images 'OS OpenMap Local' - I 
did OS square SD, this provides a map picture, I checked out a new 
housing estate and it has the street names - not currently in OSM 
(haven't put them in yet). So the OS data is useful. For that SD 
square they provide hundreds of files based on their method of 10km  
map references with 4 sections per 10 km - NW,NE,SW,SE. Not easy to 
use, an overlay of sections is required. This is updated regularly so 
can replace OS Open Data Streetview which I believe to be no longer 
updated.


Leaving aside the philosophy of what is an address  - a UPRN in OSM 
will allow users such as logistics companies to accurately plan their 
routes. Logistics companies can be encouraged to add UPRN's and 
addresses and continue to use OSM freely.



Regards

TonyS999




On 02/07/2020 17:38, Robert Whittaker (OSM lists) wrote:

I'm not completely sure if/how we can best make use of the new OS
OpenData (UPRNs, USRNs and related links) in OpenStreetMap, but as a
first step I've set up a quick slippy map with the UPRN locations
shown:

https://osm.mathmos.net/addresses/uprn/ (zoom in to level 16 to show 
the data)


The UPRN dataset literally just contains the UPRN number and its
coordinates (both OS National Grid and WGS lat/lon). There are some
additional linking datasets that link these ids to other ids (e.g.
USRNs, TOIDs). But no address information is available directly. (You
may be able to get street names by matching to OS Open Roads via TOIDs
though. Coupled with Code-Point Open, you might be able to assign
quite a few postcodes in cases where there's only one unit for a whole
street.)

The UPRN data has already helped me find a mapping error I made
locally though -- it looks like I'd accidentally missed drawing a
house outline from aerial imagery, and also classified a large garage
a few doors down as a house. The two errors cancelled out when the
houses were numbered sequentially, so I didn't notice until now. Today
though I spotted a UPRN marker over some blank space on the map, and
no marker over the mapped house that's probably a garage.

Now a few initial thoughts on the data that I've explored so far:

I believe that the UPRNs are assigned by local authorities, so
conventions may vary from place to place. I don't know who actually
assigns the coordinates (authority or OS). Looking at those for rows
of houses around me, they don't seem to have been automatically given
coordinates from the house footprint, it looks more like someone
manually clicking on a map.

The UPRN dataset should include all addressable properties. It is also
ahead of reality in some places, as it includes locations for houses
on a new development near me that have yet to be built yet. For blocks
of apartments/flats, the UPRN nodes may all have the same coordinates
or may be displaced from each other, possibly in an artificial manner.

Other objects also appear to have UPRNs. Likely things I've noticed so
far include: car parks, post boxes, telephone boxes (even after
they've been 



Re: [Talk-GB] UPRN Locations Map


2020-07-03

Thread
Russ Garrett

On Fri, 3 Jul 2020 at 11:24, Tony OSM  wrote:
> There was a reference to £1000 worth of data being made free each month
> to individual users - can't find out how this works yet. This may allow
> us as individuals to populate OSM and OSM essentially aggregates the
> data - rather like postcode data. I am researching the site to find out
> how this works.

I'm fairly sure that's "free as in beer" and not "free as in speech",
and the data will still be subject to a restrictive license which is
incompatible with OSM.

> OS have also made maps downloadable as images 'OS OpenMap Local' - I did
> OS square SD, this provides a map picture, I checked out a new housing
> estate and it has the street names - not currently in OSM (haven't put
> them in yet). So the OS data is useful. For that SD square they provide
> hundreds of files based on their method of 10km  map references with 4
> sections per 10 km - NW,NE,SW,SE. Not easy to use, an overlay of
> sections is required. This is updated regularly so can replace OS Open
> Data Streetview which I believe to be no longer updated.

OpenMap Local is already available on https://os.openstreetmap.org/
and presumably it will percolate down into editors in due course.

-- 
Russ Garrett
r...@garrett.co.uk

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Re: [Talk-GB] UPRN Locations Map


2020-07-03

Thread
Tony OSM

I spent part of yesterday navigating the relevant OS and LandRegistry 
sites and trying to figure out what we can do.


We can basically put UPRN and USRN into OSM freely - the license is 
written to enable that.  OS have also separated out the ability to match 
UPRN and USRN to address and street records - essentially they are 
creating an index into their MasterMap products which are behind a 
paywall. So anybody who wants to pay -  possibly Logistics companies - 
can find exactly where their van has to go, more accurate than a postcode.


OS also seem to have been careful not to place UPRN and USRN data into 
their other free products so as to make cross referencing difficult.


There was a reference to £1000 worth of data being made free each month 
to individual users - can't find out how this works yet. This may allow 
us as individuals to populate OSM and OSM essentially aggregates the 
data - rather like postcode data. I am researching the site to find out 
how this works.


OS have also made maps downloadable as images 'OS OpenMap Local' - I did 
OS square SD, this provides a map picture, I checked out a new housing 
estate and it has the street names - not currently in OSM (haven't put 
them in yet). So the OS data is useful. For that SD square they provide 
hundreds of files based on their method of 10km  map references with 4 
sections per 10 km - NW,NE,SW,SE. Not easy to use, an overlay of 
sections is required. This is updated regularly so can replace OS Open 
Data Streetview which I believe to be no longer updated.


Leaving aside the philosophy of what is an address  - a UPRN in OSM will 
allow users such as logistics companies to accurately plan their routes. 
Logistics companies can be encouraged to add UPRN's and addresses and 
continue to use OSM freely.



Regards

TonyS999




On 02/07/2020 17:38, Robert Whittaker (OSM lists) wrote:

I'm not completely sure if/how we can best make use of the new OS
OpenData (UPRNs, USRNs and related links) in OpenStreetMap, but as a
first step I've set up a quick slippy map with the UPRN locations
shown:

https://osm.mathmos.net/addresses/uprn/ (zoom in to level 16 to show the data)

The UPRN dataset literally just contains the UPRN number and its
coordinates (both OS National Grid and WGS lat/lon). There are some
additional linking datasets that link these ids to other ids (e.g.
USRNs, TOIDs). But no address information is available directly. (You
may be able to get street names by matching to OS Open Roads via TOIDs
though. Coupled with Code-Point Open, you might be able to assign
quite a few postcodes in cases where there's only one unit for a whole
street.)

The UPRN data has already helped me find a mapping error I made
locally though -- it looks like I'd accidentally missed drawing a
house outline from aerial imagery, and also classified a large garage
a few doors down as a house. The two errors cancelled out when the
houses were numbered sequentially, so I didn't notice until now. Today
though I spotted a UPRN marker over some blank space on the map, and
no marker over the mapped house that's probably a garage.

Now a few initial thoughts on the data that I've explored so far:

I believe that the UPRNs are assigned by local authorities, so
conventions may vary from place to place. I don't know who actually
assigns the coordinates (authority or OS). Looking at those for rows
of houses around me, they don't seem to have been automatically given
coordinates from the house footprint, it looks more like someone
manually clicking on a map.

The UPRN dataset should include all addressable properties. It is also
ahead of reality in some places, as it includes locations for houses
on a new development near me that have yet to be built yet. For blocks
of apartments/flats, the UPRN nodes may all have the same coordinates
or may be displaced from each other, possibly in an artificial manner.

Other objects also appear to have UPRNs. Likely things I've noticed so
far include: car parks, post boxes, telephone boxes (even after
they've been removed), electricity sub-stations, roads and recorded
footpaths (the UPRN locations seem to be at one end of the street, so
usually lie at a junction), recreation grounds / play areas,
floodlight poles (around sports pitches), and allotments. There's no
information about the object type in the UPRN data unfortunately.

Anyway, I hope some of this is useful / interesting. I hope to be on
the OSMUK call on Saturday to discuss things further. Best wishes,

Robert.



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Re: [Talk-GB] UPRN Locations Map


2020-07-03

Thread
Russ Garrett

On Fri, 3 Jul 2020 at 10:26, Nick  wrote:
> I was wondering about that - I checked on https://osg.scot/portal/ to
> check licensing and could not see anything relevant when searching for
> individual UPRNs.

Even if you ignore the bit about OS copyright, it says "You may
retrieve and display Content from the Site on a computer screen, print
individual pages on paper and store such pages in electronic form on
disk (but not on any server or other storage device connected to a
network) for your personal, non-commercial use provided that you
acknowledge the copyright owner."

This is (definitely) not compatible with OSM.

I'm a bit surprised that they claim the link between UPRN and address
is not covered by OS copyright. But at any rate, it doesn't matter as
their own license is pretty much equally restrictive.

> This introduces an interesting debate regarding addresses. As far as I
> know the PostCode is under license from Royal Mail - if so does that
> mean we should not put that on buildings plotted in OSM? From personal
> experience, I know that Local Authorities do make mistakes and UPRNs
> with associated data (address etc.) can be incorrect, including UPRNs in
> the wrong location. The tool I developed was to enable me to verify
> address data - I do that by also checking the Roayl Mail address finder.

Post codes themselves are not protected. If you get the post code from
a company's website, or you ask someone their post code, that's
*usually* fair game.

The *collection* of post codes in the Royal Mail PAF (or OS
AddressBase) is considered a database, and will be subject to the
database right. This is what prevents you from copying them from those
sources into OSM.

There's a bit more info here:
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Copyright_information_for_UK_mappers

-- 
Russ Garrett
r...@garrett.co.uk

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Re: [Talk-GB] UPRN Locations Map


2020-07-03

Thread
Nick


Hi Russ

I was wondering about that - I checked on https://osg.scot/portal/ to 
check licensing and could not see anything relevant when searching for 
individual UPRNs.


This introduces an interesting debate regarding addresses. As far as I 
know the PostCode is under license from Royal Mail - if so does that 
mean we should not put that on buildings plotted in OSM? From personal 
experience, I know that Local Authorities do make mistakes and UPRNs 
with associated data (address etc.) can be incorrect, including UPRNs in 
the wrong location. The tool I developed was to enable me to verify 
address data - I do that by also checking the Roayl Mail address finder.


Perhaps you can shed some light on the tangle of relevant licensing?

Cheers

Nick

On 03/07/2020 10:07, Russ Garrett wrote:

Just to emphasise that the output from your script is not suitable for
use in OSM - the osg.scot license forbids it.

Russ

On Thu, 2 Jul 2020 at 23:17, Nick  wrote:

Hi Peter

re: "I am still not clear how best to use the data available" - I have written 
a simple bit of VBA that enables address data to be retrieved for a given UPRN (I attach 
the VBA used in a form for Excel) - this only works for Scotland but may be available 
elsewhere. Using the concept you can use Python (a friend has done some preliminary work) 
or similar. This is not elegant but is perhaps a first step in enabling a whole lot of 
development?

Cheers

Nick


On 02/07/2020 18:38, Peter Neale via Talk-GB wrote:

Hi Robert,

Many thanks for producing that map.

I was able to look at my street and see a blue pin in each of the building 
outlines that I had mapped from aerial imagery, so that gave me a warm, smug 
feeling :)

I too noticed some not-yet-there properties in a nearby development that had UPRNs 
assigned - Not a problem really (IMHO).  There is also one allocated to a pond near me; I 
didn't know that was "addressable"!

However, I am still not clear how best to use the data available, if you can't use it to 
look up the address of the property.  Similarly, I am not sure how a data consumer could 
use the data, if we laboriously edited every property in OSM to include a 
"ref:GB:UPRN=" tag (or similar; other tags are available.).

Sorry not to be able to contribute something more useful... :(

Regards,
Peter



On Thursday, 2 July 2020, 17:40:51 BST, Robert Whittaker (OSM lists) 
 wrote:


I'm not completely sure if/how we can best make use of the new OS
OpenData (UPRNs, USRNs and related links) in OpenStreetMap, but as a
first step I've set up a quick slippy map with the UPRN locations
shown:

https://osm.mathmos.net/addresses/uprn/ (zoom in to level 16 to show the data)

The UPRN dataset literally just contains the UPRN number and its
coordinates (both OS National Grid and WGS lat/lon). There are some
additional linking datasets that link these ids to other ids (e.g.
USRNs, TOIDs). But no address information is available directly. (You
may be able to get street names by matching to OS Open Roads via TOIDs
though. Coupled with Code-Point Open, you might be able to assign
quite a few postcodes in cases where there's only one unit for a whole
street.)

The UPRN data has already helped me find a mapping error I made
locally though -- it looks like I'd accidentally missed drawing a
house outline from aerial imagery, and also classified a large garage
a few doors down as a house. The two errors cancelled out when the
houses were numbered sequentially, so I didn't notice until now. Today
though I spotted a UPRN marker over some blank space on the map, and
no marker over the mapped house that's probably a garage.

Now a few initial thoughts on the data that I've explored so far:

I believe that the UPRNs are assigned by local authorities, so
conventions may vary from place to place. I don't know who actually
assigns the coordinates (authority or OS). Looking at those for rows
of houses around me, they don't seem to have been automatically given
coordinates from the house footprint, it looks more like someone
manually clicking on a map.

The UPRN dataset should include all addressable properties. It is also
ahead of reality in some places, as it includes locations for houses
on a new development near me that have yet to be built yet. For blocks
of apartments/flats, the UPRN nodes may all have the same coordinates
or may be displaced from each other, possibly in an artificial manner.

Other objects also appear to have UPRNs. Likely things I've noticed so
far include: car parks, post boxes, telephone boxes (even after
they've been removed), electricity sub-stations, roads and recorded
footpaths (the UPRN locations seem to be at one end of the street, so
usually lie at a junction), recreation grounds / play areas,
floodlight poles (around sports pitches), and allotments. There's no
information about the object type in the UPRN data unfortunately.

Anyway, I hope some of this is useful / interesting. I hope to be on
the OSMUK call on Saturday 



Re: [Talk-GB] UPRN Locations Map


2020-07-03

Thread
Russ Garrett

Just to emphasise that the output from your script is not suitable for
use in OSM - the osg.scot license forbids it.

Russ

On Thu, 2 Jul 2020 at 23:17, Nick  wrote:
>
> Hi Peter
>
> re: "I am still not clear how best to use the data available" - I have 
> written a simple bit of VBA that enables address data to be retrieved for a 
> given UPRN (I attach the VBA used in a form for Excel) - this only works for 
> Scotland but may be available elsewhere. Using the concept you can use Python 
> (a friend has done some preliminary work) or similar. This is not elegant but 
> is perhaps a first step in enabling a whole lot of development?
>
> Cheers
>
> Nick
>
>
> On 02/07/2020 18:38, Peter Neale via Talk-GB wrote:
>
> Hi Robert,
>
> Many thanks for producing that map.
>
> I was able to look at my street and see a blue pin in each of the building 
> outlines that I had mapped from aerial imagery, so that gave me a warm, smug 
> feeling :)
>
> I too noticed some not-yet-there properties in a nearby development that had 
> UPRNs assigned - Not a problem really (IMHO).  There is also one allocated to 
> a pond near me; I didn't know that was "addressable"!
>
> However, I am still not clear how best to use the data available, if you 
> can't use it to look up the address of the property.  Similarly, I am not 
> sure how a data consumer could use the data, if we laboriously edited every 
> property in OSM to include a "ref:GB:UPRN=" tag (or similar; other tags are 
> available.).
>
> Sorry not to be able to contribute something more useful... :(
>
> Regards,
> Peter
>
>
>
> On Thursday, 2 July 2020, 17:40:51 BST, Robert Whittaker (OSM lists) 
>  wrote:
>
>
> I'm not completely sure if/how we can best make use of the new OS
> OpenData (UPRNs, USRNs and related links) in OpenStreetMap, but as a
> first step I've set up a quick slippy map with the UPRN locations
> shown:
>
> https://osm.mathmos.net/addresses/uprn/ (zoom in to level 16 to show the data)
>
> The UPRN dataset literally just contains the UPRN number and its
> coordinates (both OS National Grid and WGS lat/lon). There are some
> additional linking datasets that link these ids to other ids (e.g.
> USRNs, TOIDs). But no address information is available directly. (You
> may be able to get street names by matching to OS Open Roads via TOIDs
> though. Coupled with Code-Point Open, you might be able to assign
> quite a few postcodes in cases where there's only one unit for a whole
> street.)
>
> The UPRN data has already helped me find a mapping error I made
> locally though -- it looks like I'd accidentally missed drawing a
> house outline from aerial imagery, and also classified a large garage
> a few doors down as a house. The two errors cancelled out when the
> houses were numbered sequentially, so I didn't notice until now. Today
> though I spotted a UPRN marker over some blank space on the map, and
> no marker over the mapped house that's probably a garage.
>
> Now a few initial thoughts on the data that I've explored so far:
>
> I believe that the UPRNs are assigned by local authorities, so
> conventions may vary from place to place. I don't know who actually
> assigns the coordinates (authority or OS). Looking at those for rows
> of houses around me, they don't seem to have been automatically given
> coordinates from the house footprint, it looks more like someone
> manually clicking on a map.
>
> The UPRN dataset should include all addressable properties. It is also
> ahead of reality in some places, as it includes locations for houses
> on a new development near me that have yet to be built yet. For blocks
> of apartments/flats, the UPRN nodes may all have the same coordinates
> or may be displaced from each other, possibly in an artificial manner.
>
> Other objects also appear to have UPRNs. Likely things I've noticed so
> far include: car parks, post boxes, telephone boxes (even after
> they've been removed), electricity sub-stations, roads and recorded
> footpaths (the UPRN locations seem to be at one end of the street, so
> usually lie at a junction), recreation grounds / play areas,
> floodlight poles (around sports pitches), and allotments. There's no
> information about the object type in the UPRN data unfortunately.
>
> Anyway, I hope some of this is useful / interesting. I hope to be on
> the OSMUK call on Saturday to discuss things further. Best wishes,
>
> Robert.
>
> --
> Robert Whittaker
> https://osm.mathmos.net/
>
> ___
> Talk-GB mailing list
> Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
>
> ___
> Talk-GB mailing list
> Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
>
> ___
> Talk-GB mailing list
> Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb



-- 
Russ Garrett
r...@garrett.co.uk





Re: [Talk-GB] UPRN Locations Map


2020-07-03

Thread
Robert Quincey

Hi list,

Just to give you some sort of local authority perspective on this. UPRNs are 
assigned to local authority in 'blocks', i.e. we are given a big range of them 
to use. These are given to us by GeoPlace, who are in charge of coordinating 
all the changes from local authorities LLPGs (Local Land and Property 
Gazetteer) and merging them into a national dataset. There is no hard and fast 
rule on how UPRNs should be assigned to a property. Generally, when a new 
development happens they will be assigned sequentially from the block of UPRNs 
they have, but not necessarily. When a new property is built it may be in the 
middle of a bunch of UPRNs that were created years ago, so the sequential 
numbering goes out of the window.

UPRNs are often assigned before a building is built, so it can be very useful 
for finding plans for new builds. From my experience they are generally placed 
in the middle of a building footprint from OS MasterMap, but not always as 
sometimes there is no footprint available or they have not been recently 
updated. Same with flats, generally all the individual 'seeds' are plonked on 
top of each other, but occasionally they are spread out.

As for their use, to us they are utterly vital and allow us to link datasets 
together from different departments and different organisations and know we are 
looking at the same thing. The opening up of the UPRN should allow better open 
data sharing, but I haven't delved into this much yet, its probably going to 
take time before we see the benefits.

For the OSM community, for now the use might be limited to what you've already 
done, i.e. identifying and verifying buildings, not sure what else you might be 
able to do beyond that without the actual address information, but I'm always 
amazed by the community's ingenuity.

GeoPlace have a decent FAQ section on UPRNs and USRNs - 
https://www.geoplace.co.uk/power-of-place/faqs - As well as a limited 
address/UPRN finder - https://www.findmyaddress.co.uk/search - (goes without 
saying that you shouldn't use data from that address finder in OSM!)

I hope that helps. Admittedly I'm just a developer and not involved in the day 
to day of UPRN and address creation. Bear in mind that each authority probably 
has slightly different ways of doing things, so what's true for Dorset might 
not be true for everyone else. If you have questions about data in your own 
area, look up your local District or County Councils LLPG officer and they will 
probably be able to help.

Thanks,


Rob Quincey - GIS Developer at Dorset Council



From: Peter Neale via Talk-GB 
Sent: 03 July 2020 09:15
To: talk-gb ; Nick 
Subject: Re: [Talk-GB] UPRN Locations Map

Hi Nick,

Thanks for that.

I regret that my VBA and Python are about as good as my Swahili and Martian.  
(i.e. NOT)

Many years ago, I did a bit (sic) of coding in Basic, Fortran and Algol (look 
them up in the history books) and I used Prolog for my AI project in 1984, but 
since then, I've been gradually relegated to management.

However, I am sure that there are others in this community, who will be much 
better placed than I am to use the code that you  have so kindly provided.

Regards,
Peter



On Thursday, 2 July 2020, 23:19:06 BST, Nick  wrote:



Hi Peter

re: "I am still not clear how best to use the data available" - I have written 
a simple bit of VBA that enables address data to be retrieved for a given UPRN 
(I attach the VBA used in a form for Excel) - this only works for Scotland but 
may be available elsewhere. Using the concept you can use Python (a friend has 
done some preliminary work) or similar. This is not elegant but is perhaps a 
first step in enabling a whole lot of development?

Cheers

Nick


On 02/07/2020 18:38, Peter Neale via Talk-GB wrote:
Hi Robert,

Many thanks for producing that map.

I was able to look at my street and see a blue pin in each of the building 
outlines that I had mapped from aerial imagery, so that gave me a warm, smug 
feeling :)

I too noticed some not-yet-there properties in a nearby development that had 
UPRNs assigned - Not a problem really (IMHO).  There is also one allocated to a 
pond near me; I didn't know that was "addressable"!

However, I am still not clear how best to use the data available, if you can't 
use it to look up the address of the property.  Similarly, I am not sure how a 
data consumer could use the data, if we laboriously edited every property in 
OSM to include a "ref:GB:UPRN=" tag (or similar; other tags are available.).

Sorry not to be able to contribute something more useful... :(

Regards,
Peter



On Thursday, 2 July 2020, 17:40:51 BST, Robert Whittaker (OSM lists) 
<mailto:robert.whittaker+...@gmail.com> wrote:


I'm not completely sure if/how we can best make use of the new OS
OpenData (UPRNs, USRNs and related links) in OpenStreetMap, but as a
first step I've set up a quick slippy map w



Re: [Talk-GB] UPRN Locations Map


2020-07-03

Thread
Peter Neale via Talk-GB

Hi Nick,
Thanks for that.
I regret that my VBA and Python are about as good as my Swahili and Martian.  
(i.e. NOT)
Many years ago, I did a bit (sic) of coding in Basic, Fortran and Algol (look 
them up in the history books) and I used Prolog for my AI project in 1984, but 
since then, I've been gradually relegated to management.
However, I am sure that there are others in this community, who will be much 
better placed than I am to use the code that you  have so kindly provided.
Regards,Peter


On Thursday, 2 July 2020, 23:19:06 BST, Nick  wrote:  
 
  
Hi Peter
 
re: "I am still not clear how best to use the data available" - I have written 
a simple bit of VBA that enables address data to be retrieved for a given UPRN 
(I attach the VBA used in a form for Excel) - this only works for Scotland but 
may be available elsewhere. Using the concept you can use Python (a friend has 
done some preliminary work) or similar. This is not elegant but is perhaps a 
first step in enabling a whole lot of development?
 
 
Cheers
 
Nick
 

 
 On 02/07/2020 18:38, Peter Neale via Talk-GB wrote:
  
 
  Hi Robert, 
  Many thanks for producing that map. 
  I was able to look at my street and see a blue pin in each of the building 
outlines that I had mapped from aerial imagery, so that gave me a warm, smug 
feeling :) 
  I too noticed some not-yet-there properties in a nearby development that had 
UPRNs assigned - Not a problem really (IMHO).  There is also one allocated to a 
pond near me; I didn't know that was "addressable"!
  
  However, I am still not clear how best to use the data available, if you 
can't use it to look up the address of the property.  Similarly, I am not sure 
how a data consumer could use the data, if we laboriously edited every property 
in OSM to include a "ref:GB:UPRN=" tag (or similar; other tags are 
available.). 
  Sorry not to be able to contribute something more useful... :( 
Regards, Peter 
 
  
  On Thursday, 2 July 2020, 17:40:51 BST, Robert Whittaker (OSM lists) 
 wrote:  
  
   I'm not completely sure if/how we can best make use of the new OS
  OpenData (UPRNs, USRNs and related links) in OpenStreetMap, but as a
  first step I've set up a quick slippy map with the UPRN locations
  shown:
  
  https://osm.mathmos.net/addresses/uprn/ (zoom in to level 16 to show the data)
  
  The UPRN dataset literally just contains the UPRN number and its
  coordinates (both OS National Grid and WGS lat/lon). There are some
  additional linking datasets that link these ids to other ids (e.g.
  USRNs, TOIDs). But no address information is available directly. (You
  may be able to get street names by matching to OS Open Roads via TOIDs
  though. Coupled with Code-Point Open, you might be able to assign
  quite a few postcodes in cases where there's only one unit for a whole
  street.)
  
  The UPRN data has already helped me find a mapping error I made
  locally though -- it looks like I'd accidentally missed drawing a
  house outline from aerial imagery, and also classified a large garage
  a few doors down as a house. The two errors cancelled out when the
  houses were numbered sequentially, so I didn't notice until now. Today
  though I spotted a UPRN marker over some blank space on the map, and
  no marker over the mapped house that's probably a garage.
  
  Now a few initial thoughts on the data that I've explored so far:
  
  I believe that the UPRNs are assigned by local authorities, so
  conventions may vary from place to place. I don't know who actually
  assigns the coordinates (authority or OS). Looking at those for rows
  of houses around me, they don't seem to have been automatically given
  coordinates from the house footprint, it looks more like someone
  manually clicking on a map.
  
  The UPRN dataset should include all addressable properties. It is also
  ahead of reality in some places, as it includes locations for houses
  on a new development near me that have yet to be built yet. For blocks
  of apartments/flats, the UPRN nodes may all have the same coordinates
  or may be displaced from each other, possibly in an artificial manner.
  
  Other objects also appear to have UPRNs. Likely things I've noticed so
  far include: car parks, post boxes, telephone boxes (even after
  they've been removed), electricity sub-stations, roads and recorded
  footpaths (the UPRN locations seem to be at one end of the street, so
  usually lie at a junction), recreation grounds / play areas,
  floodlight poles (around sports pitches), and allotments. There's no
  information about the object type in the UPRN data unfortunately.
  
  Anyway, I hope some of this is useful / interesting. I hope to be on
  the OSMUK call on Saturday to discuss things further. Best wishes,
  
  Robert.
  
  -- 
  Robert Whittaker
  https://osm.mathmos.net/
  
  ___
  Talk-GB mailing list
  Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org
  



Re: [Talk-GB] UPRN Locations Map


2020-07-03

Thread
Andy Robinson

As always Robert you have provided a useful tool and analysis.

Thanks & cheers
Andy

-Original Message-
From: Robert Whittaker (OSM lists) [mailto:robert.whittaker+...@gmail.com] 
Sent: 02 July 2020 17:38
To: talk-gb
Subject: [Talk-GB] UPRN Locations Map

I'm not completely sure if/how we can best make use of the new OS
OpenData (UPRNs, USRNs and related links) in OpenStreetMap, but as a
first step I've set up a quick slippy map with the UPRN locations
shown:

https://osm.mathmos.net/addresses/uprn/ (zoom in to level 16 to show the data)

The UPRN dataset literally just contains the UPRN number and its
coordinates (both OS National Grid and WGS lat/lon). There are some
additional linking datasets that link these ids to other ids (e.g.
USRNs, TOIDs). But no address information is available directly. (You
may be able to get street names by matching to OS Open Roads via TOIDs
though. Coupled with Code-Point Open, you might be able to assign
quite a few postcodes in cases where there's only one unit for a whole
street.)

The UPRN data has already helped me find a mapping error I made
locally though -- it looks like I'd accidentally missed drawing a
house outline from aerial imagery, and also classified a large garage
a few doors down as a house. The two errors cancelled out when the
houses were numbered sequentially, so I didn't notice until now. Today
though I spotted a UPRN marker over some blank space on the map, and
no marker over the mapped house that's probably a garage.

Now a few initial thoughts on the data that I've explored so far:

I believe that the UPRNs are assigned by local authorities, so
conventions may vary from place to place. I don't know who actually
assigns the coordinates (authority or OS). Looking at those for rows
of houses around me, they don't seem to have been automatically given
coordinates from the house footprint, it looks more like someone
manually clicking on a map.

The UPRN dataset should include all addressable properties. It is also
ahead of reality in some places, as it includes locations for houses
on a new development near me that have yet to be built yet. For blocks
of apartments/flats, the UPRN nodes may all have the same coordinates
or may be displaced from each other, possibly in an artificial manner.

Other objects also appear to have UPRNs. Likely things I've noticed so
far include: car parks, post boxes, telephone boxes (even after
they've been removed), electricity sub-stations, roads and recorded
footpaths (the UPRN locations seem to be at one end of the street, so
usually lie at a junction), recreation grounds / play areas,
floodlight poles (around sports pitches), and allotments. There's no
information about the object type in the UPRN data unfortunately.

Anyway, I hope some of this is useful / interesting. I hope to be on
the OSMUK call on Saturday to discuss things further. Best wishes,

Robert.

-- 
Robert Whittaker
https://osm.mathmos.net/

___
Talk-GB mailing list
Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb


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Re: [Talk-GB] UPRN Locations Map


2020-07-03

Thread
Devonshire


On Thu, Jul 2, 2020, at 5:38 PM, Robert Whittaker (OSM lists) wrote:
> I'm not completely sure if/how we can best make use of the new OS
> OpenData (UPRNs, USRNs and related links) in OpenStreetMap, but as a
> first step I've set up a quick slippy map with the UPRN locations
> shown...
> 

Thanks for doing this Robert but unless these can be used to pull down / link 
addresses or other attributes in some kind of usable, license friendly way then 
I don't see a lot of point in adding the references themselves to OSM.

Postcodes are pretty well entrenched for navigation in the UK and I don't see 
the average person replacing their fairly easy to remember postcode with a hard 
to remember 11/12 digit number.

Creation of the references also seems a bit inconsistent to me. On the seafront 
near me there are some open shelters and they have just one reference but on 
the next beach down indentical shelters have 4 references, I assume one for 
each face/row of seats. There are a lot of B's in my area and they all seem 
to have two references despite only have a single address, I assume one for the 
business and one for the property but businesses on the local pier do not have 
a separate node although they are separately addressable.

Kevin
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Re: [Talk-GB] UPRN Locations Map


2020-07-02

Thread
Ed Loach

Thanks from me too Robert. Of course the first place I zoomed into was where I 
live. It appears that where the house next door was knocked down (roughly 10 to 
15 years ago at a guess) and two built there are three pins. Checking the 
council's planning portal it was 17 years ago and the application lists 3 
associated properties with one being "Site of former (address that was knocked 
down)". I think it also includes pins at junctions that represent what the 
council call their "street record" in the planning portal, e.g. for 
https://idox.tendringdc.gov.uk/online-applications/propertyDetails.do?keyVal=JQS696QB03B01=summary

Ed

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From: Robert Whittaker (OSM lists) 
Sent: Thursday, July 2, 2020 5:38:03 PM
To: talk-gb 
Subject: [Talk-GB] UPRN Locations Map

I'm not completely sure if/how we can best make use of the new OS
OpenData (UPRNs, USRNs and related links) in OpenStreetMap, but as a
first step I've set up a quick slippy map with the UPRN locations
shown:

https://osm.mathmos.net/addresses/uprn/ (zoom in to level 16 to show the data)

The UPRN dataset literally just contains the UPRN number and its
coordinates (both OS National Grid and WGS lat/lon). There are some
additional linking datasets that link these ids to other ids (e.g.
USRNs, TOIDs). But no address information is available directly. (You
may be able to get street names by matching to OS Open Roads via TOIDs
though. Coupled with Code-Point Open, you might be able to assign
quite a few postcodes in cases where there's only one unit for a whole
street.)

The UPRN data has already helped me find a mapping error I made
locally though -- it looks like I'd accidentally missed drawing a
house outline from aerial imagery, and also classified a large garage
a few doors down as a house. The two errors cancelled out when the
houses were numbered sequentially, so I didn't notice until now. Today
though I spotted a UPRN marker over some blank space on the map, and
no marker over the mapped house that's probably a garage.

Now a few initial thoughts on the data that I've explored so far:

I believe that the UPRNs are assigned by local authorities, so
conventions may vary from place to place. I don't know who actually
assigns the coordinates (authority or OS). Looking at those for rows
of houses around me, they don't seem to have been automatically given
coordinates from the house footprint, it looks more like someone
manually clicking on a map.

The UPRN dataset should include all addressable properties. It is also
ahead of reality in some places, as it includes locations for houses
on a new development near me that have yet to be built yet. For blocks
of apartments/flats, the UPRN nodes may all have the same coordinates
or may be displaced from each other, possibly in an artificial manner.

Other objects also appear to have UPRNs. Likely things I've noticed so
far include: car parks, post boxes, telephone boxes (even after
they've been removed), electricity sub-stations, roads and recorded
footpaths (the UPRN locations seem to be at one end of the street, so
usually lie at a junction), recreation grounds / play areas,
floodlight poles (around sports pitches), and allotments. There's no
information about the object type in the UPRN data unfortunately.

Anyway, I hope some of this is useful / interesting. I hope to be on
the OSMUK call on Saturday to discuss things further. Best wishes,

Robert.

--
Robert Whittaker
https://osm.mathmos.net/

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Re: [Talk-GB] UPRN Locations Map


2020-07-02

Thread
Nick


Hi Peter

re: "I am still not clear how best to use the data available" - I have 
written a simple bit of VBA that enables address data to be retrieved 
for a given UPRN (I attach the VBA used in a form for Excel) - this only 
works for Scotland but may be available elsewhere. Using the concept you 
can use Python (a friend has done some preliminary work) or similar. 
This is not elegant but is perhaps a first step in enabling a whole lot 
of development?


Cheers

Nick


On 02/07/2020 18:38, Peter Neale via Talk-GB wrote:

Hi Robert,

Many thanks for producing that map.

I was able to look at my street and see a blue pin in each of the 
building outlines that I had mapped from aerial imagery, so that gave 
me a warm, smug feeling :)


I too noticed some not-yet-there properties in a nearby development 
that had UPRNs assigned - Not a problem really (IMHO).  There is also 
one allocated to a pond near me; I didn't know that was "addressable"!


However, I am still not clear how best to use the data available, if 
you can't use it to look up the address of the property.  Similarly, I 
am not sure how a data consumer could use the data, if we laboriously 
edited every property in OSM to include a "ref:GB:UPRN=" tag (or 
similar; other tags are available.).


Sorry not to be able to contribute something more useful... :(

Regards,
Peter



On Thursday, 2 July 2020, 17:40:51 BST, Robert Whittaker (OSM lists) 
 wrote:



I'm not completely sure if/how we can best make use of the new OS
OpenData (UPRNs, USRNs and related links) in OpenStreetMap, but as a
first step I've set up a quick slippy map with the UPRN locations
shown:

https://osm.mathmos.net/addresses/uprn/ 
(zoom in to level 16 to show 
the data)


The UPRN dataset literally just contains the UPRN number and its
coordinates (both OS National Grid and WGS lat/lon). There are some
additional linking datasets that link these ids to other ids (e.g.
USRNs, TOIDs). But no address information is available directly. (You
may be able to get street names by matching to OS Open Roads via TOIDs
though. Coupled with Code-Point Open, you might be able to assign
quite a few postcodes in cases where there's only one unit for a whole
street.)

The UPRN data has already helped me find a mapping error I made
locally though -- it looks like I'd accidentally missed drawing a
house outline from aerial imagery, and also classified a large garage
a few doors down as a house. The two errors cancelled out when the
houses were numbered sequentially, so I didn't notice until now. Today
though I spotted a UPRN marker over some blank space on the map, and
no marker over the mapped house that's probably a garage.

Now a few initial thoughts on the data that I've explored so far:

I believe that the UPRNs are assigned by local authorities, so
conventions may vary from place to place. I don't know who actually
assigns the coordinates (authority or OS). Looking at those for rows
of houses around me, they don't seem to have been automatically given
coordinates from the house footprint, it looks more like someone
manually clicking on a map.

The UPRN dataset should include all addressable properties. It is also
ahead of reality in some places, as it includes locations for houses
on a new development near me that have yet to be built yet. For blocks
of apartments/flats, the UPRN nodes may all have the same coordinates
or may be displaced from each other, possibly in an artificial manner.

Other objects also appear to have UPRNs. Likely things I've noticed so
far include: car parks, post boxes, telephone boxes (even after
they've been removed), electricity sub-stations, roads and recorded
footpaths (the UPRN locations seem to be at one end of the street, so
usually lie at a junction), recreation grounds / play areas,
floodlight poles (around sports pitches), and allotments. There's no
information about the object type in the UPRN data unfortunately.

Anyway, I hope some of this is useful / interesting. I hope to be on
the OSMUK call on Saturday to discuss things further. Best wishes,

Robert.

--
Robert Whittaker
https://osm.mathmos.net/

___
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Private Sub CommandButton1_Click()
On Error GoTo ErrorHandler

 Dim wBk As Workbook
 Dim wSht As Worksheet
 Dim r As Long
  Set wBk = ActiveWorkbook
  Set wSht = wBk.Worksheets("UPRN")
  r = wSht.Range("A" & wSht.Rows.Count).End(xlUp).Row
  r = r + 1

Dim UPRN As String
 If IsNumeric(Me.TextBox1.Value) = False Then
  MsgBox "UPRN must be numeric"
  Exit Sub
 End If
 
 If Len(Me.TextBox1.Value) > 12 Then
  MsgBox "UPRNs are integers that can be up to 12 digits in length"
  Exit Sub
 



Re: [Talk-GB] UPRN Locations Map


2020-07-02

Thread
Dan Glover


On 2020-07-02 19:52, SK53 wrote:


I've also had a quick look, and your hints are quite useful.


Very much agreed, thanks Robert.


One thing I've noticed is UPRNs which I suspect are for building
shells. So there's a house which has recently been converted into
student housing with a hair transplant surgery on the ground floor.
This has 3 UPRNs. The next property down is a small parade of 4 shops
with 3 office units above and this has a total of 10 UPRNs. The next
parade of 6 shops has 7 UPRNs. At least one is the shell, or possibly
the land parcel on which the property sits.


Not sure whether this list accepts images, so I'll use words. Near here 
is a three-storey building built in the 1970s as a branch of Tesco. It 
closed and was converted to 5 shops and 20 flats in the mid-1980s. One 
of the markers shows a contiguous block of 20 UPRNs, plus one with a 
slightly higher number and another in a completely different range. The 
flats are leasehold, as might be expected, but the residential part of 
the building also has an overall leasehold and is managed separately 
from the retail units. Unfortunately I can't find a way to decode them 
further - the local planning system doesn't show UPRNs.



Post boxes, substations, patches of grass (I presume), and bus stops
are things I've spotted.[...]


I suppose local practice may vary. Post boxes, yes, bus stop coverage 
seems patchy around here (Canterbury District Council) but beach huts 
and individual kiosks on the pier appear along with some statues/art 
installations. There are a few markers in a car park which may be 
payment machines - and one is on the beach but doesn't correspond to any 
known feature - it could be the beach itself has a UPRN!



Dan


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Re: [Talk-GB] UPRN Locations Map


2020-07-02

Thread
Mark Goodge




On 02/07/2020 19:52, SK53 wrote:

Post boxes, substations, patches of grass (I presume), and bus stops are 
things I've spotted. The oddity is a great forest of UPRNs over a 
hospital building 
. 


They may possibly be multiple postal addresses, for example for post to 
different departments, that share a location.


On a similar note, this view of a postal depot in Stoke only has one 
marker on the building itself:


https://osm.mathmos.net/addresses/uprn/#19/52.9423/-1.1827

But, actually, there are multiple UPRNs all sharing identical 
coordinates - so many, in fact, that if you click on the marker, the 
list expands so far that it shifts the viewpoint of the map which then 
hides them all again, so you can't actually read them!


Mark

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Re: [Talk-GB] UPRN Locations Map


2020-07-02

Thread
Mark Goodge




On 02/07/2020 18:38, Peter Neale via Talk-GB wrote:

Hi Robert,

Many thanks for producing that map.

I was able to look at my street and see a blue pin in each of the 
building outlines that I had mapped from aerial imagery, so that gave me 
a warm, smug feeling :)


I too noticed some not-yet-there properties in a nearby development that 
had UPRNs assigned - Not a problem really (IMHO).  There is also one 
allocated to a pond near me; I didn't know that was "addressable"!


They're not addressable in the sense that they have a postal address. 
But they still need to have some form of identification that can be used 
for things like planning applications, business rates, etc.


However, I am still not clear how best to use the data available, if you 
can't use it to look up the address of the property.  Similarly, I am 
not sure how a data consumer could use the data, if we laboriously 
edited every property in OSM to include a "ref:GB:UPRN=" tag (or 
similar; other tags are available.).


In the short term, not a lot. But, in the long run, UPRNs are likely to 
have increasing importance. Consumers will be expected to know, or at 
least know where to find, their UPRN - it will be a public identifier 
for business rates and council tax, for example. I would even expect 
sat-navs to start supporting them - they are more precise than 
postcodes, but easier to type in than a full address. So having them 
available to the map will facilitate that.


Mark

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Re: [Talk-GB] UPRN Locations Map


2020-07-02

Thread
SK53

I've also had a quick look, and your hints are quite useful.

One thing I've noticed is UPRNs which I suspect are for building shells. So
there's a house which has recently been converted into student housing with
a hair transplant surgery on the ground floor. This has 3 UPRNs. The next
property down is a small parade of 4 shops with 3 office units above and
this has a total of 10 UPRNs. The next parade of 6 shops has 7 UPRNs. At
least one is the shell, or possibly the land parcel on which the property
sits.

One of the university buildings has a number of self-contained flats, but
there are no UPRNs for these (presumably postal mail goes to the tenants
through the internal mail).

Post boxes, substations, patches of grass (I presume), and bus stops are
things I've spotted. The oddity is a great forest of UPRNs over a hospital
building .
Student residences ('villages') seem to have one UPRN per flat/studio + 1
for the building itself. What is interesting is that quite a few shops (on
university premises) which pay business rates do not seem to appear, and
conversely ATMs which are ratable do not appear at all. Street lights, man
hole covers, street cabinets, gullies etc do not appear, and I think are
not captured for MasterMap. It does not resolve a local mapping conundrum,
which is what happened to the rifle range underneath a former canal bridge.

Jerry

On Thu, 2 Jul 2020 at 17:38, Robert Whittaker (OSM lists) <
robert.whittaker+...@gmail.com> wrote:

> I'm not completely sure if/how we can best make use of the new OS
> OpenData (UPRNs, USRNs and related links) in OpenStreetMap, but as a
> first step I've set up a quick slippy map with the UPRN locations
> shown:
>
> https://osm.mathmos.net/addresses/uprn/ (zoom in to level 16 to show the
> data)
>
> The UPRN dataset literally just contains the UPRN number and its
> coordinates (both OS National Grid and WGS lat/lon). There are some
> additional linking datasets that link these ids to other ids (e.g.
> USRNs, TOIDs). But no address information is available directly. (You
> may be able to get street names by matching to OS Open Roads via TOIDs
> though. Coupled with Code-Point Open, you might be able to assign
> quite a few postcodes in cases where there's only one unit for a whole
> street.)
>
> The UPRN data has already helped me find a mapping error I made
> locally though -- it looks like I'd accidentally missed drawing a
> house outline from aerial imagery, and also classified a large garage
> a few doors down as a house. The two errors cancelled out when the
> houses were numbered sequentially, so I didn't notice until now. Today
> though I spotted a UPRN marker over some blank space on the map, and
> no marker over the mapped house that's probably a garage.
>
> Now a few initial thoughts on the data that I've explored so far:
>
> I believe that the UPRNs are assigned by local authorities, so
> conventions may vary from place to place. I don't know who actually
> assigns the coordinates (authority or OS). Looking at those for rows
> of houses around me, they don't seem to have been automatically given
> coordinates from the house footprint, it looks more like someone
> manually clicking on a map.
>
> The UPRN dataset should include all addressable properties. It is also
> ahead of reality in some places, as it includes locations for houses
> on a new development near me that have yet to be built yet. For blocks
> of apartments/flats, the UPRN nodes may all have the same coordinates
> or may be displaced from each other, possibly in an artificial manner.
>
> Other objects also appear to have UPRNs. Likely things I've noticed so
> far include: car parks, post boxes, telephone boxes (even after
> they've been removed), electricity sub-stations, roads and recorded
> footpaths (the UPRN locations seem to be at one end of the street, so
> usually lie at a junction), recreation grounds / play areas,
> floodlight poles (around sports pitches), and allotments. There's no
> information about the object type in the UPRN data unfortunately.
>
> Anyway, I hope some of this is useful / interesting. I hope to be on
> the OSMUK call on Saturday to discuss things further. Best wishes,
>
> Robert.
>
> --
> Robert Whittaker
> https://osm.mathmos.net/
>
> ___
> Talk-GB mailing list
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>
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Re: [Talk-GB] UPRN Locations Map


2020-07-02

Thread
Peter Neale via Talk-GB

Hi Robert,
Many thanks for producing that map.
I was able to look at my street and see a blue pin in each of the building 
outlines that I had mapped from aerial imagery, so that gave me a warm, smug 
feeling :)
I too noticed some not-yet-there properties in a nearby development that had 
UPRNs assigned - Not a problem really (IMHO).  There is also one allocated to a 
pond near me; I didn't know that was "addressable"!

However, I am still not clear how best to use the data available, if you can't 
use it to look up the address of the property.  Similarly, I am not sure how a 
data consumer could use the data, if we laboriously edited every property in 
OSM to include a "ref:GB:UPRN=" tag (or similar; other tags are available.).
Sorry not to be able to contribute something more useful... :(
Regards,Peter
 

On Thursday, 2 July 2020, 17:40:51 BST, Robert Whittaker (OSM lists) 
 wrote:  
 
 I'm not completely sure if/how we can best make use of the new OS
OpenData (UPRNs, USRNs and related links) in OpenStreetMap, but as a
first step I've set up a quick slippy map with the UPRN locations
shown:

https://osm.mathmos.net/addresses/uprn/ (zoom in to level 16 to show the data)

The UPRN dataset literally just contains the UPRN number and its
coordinates (both OS National Grid and WGS lat/lon). There are some
additional linking datasets that link these ids to other ids (e.g.
USRNs, TOIDs). But no address information is available directly. (You
may be able to get street names by matching to OS Open Roads via TOIDs
though. Coupled with Code-Point Open, you might be able to assign
quite a few postcodes in cases where there's only one unit for a whole
street.)

The UPRN data has already helped me find a mapping error I made
locally though -- it looks like I'd accidentally missed drawing a
house outline from aerial imagery, and also classified a large garage
a few doors down as a house. The two errors cancelled out when the
houses were numbered sequentially, so I didn't notice until now. Today
though I spotted a UPRN marker over some blank space on the map, and
no marker over the mapped house that's probably a garage.

Now a few initial thoughts on the data that I've explored so far:

I believe that the UPRNs are assigned by local authorities, so
conventions may vary from place to place. I don't know who actually
assigns the coordinates (authority or OS). Looking at those for rows
of houses around me, they don't seem to have been automatically given
coordinates from the house footprint, it looks more like someone
manually clicking on a map.

The UPRN dataset should include all addressable properties. It is also
ahead of reality in some places, as it includes locations for houses
on a new development near me that have yet to be built yet. For blocks
of apartments/flats, the UPRN nodes may all have the same coordinates
or may be displaced from each other, possibly in an artificial manner.

Other objects also appear to have UPRNs. Likely things I've noticed so
far include: car parks, post boxes, telephone boxes (even after
they've been removed), electricity sub-stations, roads and recorded
footpaths (the UPRN locations seem to be at one end of the street, so
usually lie at a junction), recreation grounds / play areas,
floodlight poles (around sports pitches), and allotments. There's no
information about the object type in the UPRN data unfortunately.

Anyway, I hope some of this is useful / interesting. I hope to be on
the OSMUK call on Saturday to discuss things further. Best wishes,

Robert.

-- 
Robert Whittaker
https://osm.mathmos.net/

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