date:20091207

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Lambertus schreef:
 Sorry, but I don't see a lot of OSM people going over to 'the dark 
 side'. No matter how good or bad OSM is being run.
 
 If I don't agree with how things are being done here at OSM then I'll 
 try to fix it, work around it or quit, but I'm *not* going to be an 
 unpaid employee for Google's mega profits.

So you do not mind to be part of the (mega-) profits and success of
Cloudmade, GeoFabrik, KPN, Bliin, Nulaz, Cyclomedia, Ilse Media,
Trackrr, Flickr, [...], etc. but you do mind to be part of the success
of Google.

I'm just curious... why?


Stefan

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Re: [OSM-talk] Create two new categories for lawyers, architects, plumbers, etc

2009-12-07 Thread Emilie Laffray

2009/12/7 Jukka Rahkonen jukka.rahko...@mmmtike.fi

 Steve Bennett stevagewp at gmail.com writes:

  What about architect=yes, like you get for bridge, area, building...
 Seems
 to work well. And then, if and when you have more information to add (eg,
 lawyer=immigration), you have somewhere to add it.Steve

 For people using OSM data through some normal GIS tools, for example by
 importing data first to PostGIS database with osm2pgsql, it is much more
 painfull if each profession will have an own tag like architect=yes,
 lawyer=yes etc. If amenity category is not enough I would like better
 to
 have a limited number of other category tags and values which suit well for
 filtering, like something=architect, something=lawyer etc.  Even now a
 limit
 between amenity and shop is a bit unclear, for example in
 amenity=veterinary and
 shop=hairdresser.


I am afraid that normal GIS tools will always be lossy compared to the
structure of OSM. Almost all formats have a fixed number fields (except
maybe GeoJSON). I don't think you can reconcile that easily with OSM whose
richness is linked to the multiplicity of tags that we have.
So the lawyer=yes is a pain for normal gis, but at the same time very
powerful for the rest of us who feel limited by the number of fields that
you have in there. To some extent, osm2pgsql works like normal GIS, while
Osmosis produces a schema that keeps the spirit of OSM.
I think your something= is a good compromise in the end.
I don't think there is an easy answer here, and I really don't want to go
back to some limitations.

Emilie Laffray
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Re: [OSM-talk] Divided roads proposal

On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 9:12 AM, Richard Bullock rb...@cantab.net wrote:

  Maybe we should be mapping slipways, hopefully there's a better approach
  than marking them all as fully fledged roads though.
 
 Sliproads are tagged as highway=xyz_link

 e.g. a sliproad to a motorway would be highway=motorway_link
 sliproad to a trunk road would be highway=trunk_link etc.

 Ah, I didn't know it went all the way down to secondary_link. (But not
tertiary_link?)

Can renderers improve their render quality at lower zoom levels by not
rendering (certain) link roads? Ie, given road A-B-C, with incoming road
D-B, and link D-A, perhaps it could not render D-A.

Steve
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Re: [OSM-talk] Divided roads proposal

2009-12-07 Thread Richard Weait

On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 7:34 AM, Steve Bennett stevag...@gmail.com wrote:
 Can renderers improve their render quality at lower zoom levels by not
 rendering (certain) link roads? Ie, given road A-B-C, with incoming road
 D-B, and link D-A, perhaps it could not render D-A.

Cartographers (people) can do most anything.  Renderers (software) are
pretty good too.  ;-)

In Mapnik, for example, you could select by zoom-level to either
render or not render all highway=secondary_link.

This is a rendering rule from Mapnik for secondary_link (secondary as
well) when zoomed all the way in (from 1:1000 to 1:5000). It shows
that the secondary_link will be rendered as 17 pixels wide.  Zooming
out causes the width to reduce to 12 pixels, 10 pixels, 4 pixels then
disappear at scales beyond 1:15

Rule
  Filter[highway] = 'secondary' or [highway] = 'secondary_link'/Filter
  MaxScaleDenominator5000/MaxScaleDenominator
  MinScaleDenominator1000/MinScaleDenominator
  LineSymbolizer
CssParameter name=stroke#a37b48/CssParameter
CssParameter name=stroke-width17/CssParameter
CssParameter name=stroke-dasharray4,2/CssParameter
  /LineSymbolizer
/Rule

You could easily choose to not show secondary_link at scales of your
choice.  Whether that is an improvement in rendering quality or not
would be a judgment call and should consider the intent of your
rendering and the interests of your audience.

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Re: [OSM-talk] OSMF: The people you are going to hand over your OSM data ...

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Maarten Deen schreef:
 You cannot see the process how Cloudmade, Geofabrik and others process
 their data. You do not get anything back from how companies that use OSM
 for visual representation. And if Google offers OSM in GoogleEarth and
 maps you are actually benefiting from several things that you cannot get
 now:
 
 I thought that using OSM data now means also contributing to OSM. With the
 new license, is this not necessary anymore? Can you just take the data and
 not give back?

Contribution 'upstream' (as in OSM) is not required now, the
contribution and the derived works are made available on the same license.

If your question is; Can anyone use OSM without giving back?, sure
they can. Since 80n already pointed it out that the license change was
actually invented to facilitate more usage (hence BBC Broadcasts for
example) the chances that the big 'G' company is going to use OSM, might
even increase by the license change.


Stefan
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Re: [OSM-talk] Divided roads proposal

On Tue, Dec 8, 2009 at 12:06 AM, Richard Weait rich...@weait.com wrote:

 You could easily choose to not show secondary_link at scales of your
 choice.  Whether that is an improvement in rendering quality or not
 would be a judgment call and should consider the intent of your
 rendering and the interests of your audience.


Ok, but I was really thinking about the standard Mapnik run at OSM. And I
think it would take more than simply not rendering *any* trunk_links, for
example. It would have to check that the link was actually redundant: I
think links that do a 360 or cross another road should always be shown, and
probably all motorway_links for that matter.

Steve
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Re: [OSM-talk] OSMF: The people you are going to hand over your OSM data ...

Dunno about the rest of you, but I fantasise about the day that a taxi
driver takes me through a shortcut that I added to OSM... I map on OSM
because I want everyone to have the changes, not because I'm on an open
source crusade.

(I'll be quiet again.)

Steve
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Re: [OSM-talk] OSMF: The people you are going to hand over your OSM data ...

On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 7:48 AM, Stefan de Konink ste...@konink.de wrote:

 And if Google offers OSM in GoogleEarth and
 maps you are actually benefiting from several things that you cannot get
 now:

 - - Massive adoption, visibility to the general public
 - - Hosting, no more slow world wide tile servers
 - - And most likely if this `evil' company was involved the 'do trace'
 photos


There's nothing stopping them from putting the tile servers behind a
restrictive TOS, requiring a key to use the API, and limiting the number of
accesses per key, is there?
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Re: [OSM-talk] OSMF: The people you are going to hand over your OSM data ...

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Anthony schreef:
 There's nothing stopping them from putting the tile servers behind a
 restrictive TOS, requiring a key to use the API, and limiting the number
 of accesses per key, is there?

Is there for Cloudmade? The routing api, their custom tiles?

It is `free' data, if they want to offer a service they can limit it to
what they want. The competition is here that someone else can offer it
without the restrictions and /without/ the SLA.


Stefan

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Re: [OSM-talk] OSMF: The people you are going to hand over your OSM data ...

On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 8:46 AM, Stefan de Konink ste...@konink.de wrote:

 Anthony schreef:
  There's nothing stopping them from putting the tile servers behind a
  restrictive TOS, requiring a key to use the API, and limiting the number
  of accesses per key, is there?

 Is there for Cloudmade? The routing api, their custom tiles?


You're confusing me with Lambertus.  I never said anything good about
Cloudmade.

Actually, Cloudmade is one of the main reasons I fear handing so much power
(the power to relicense) to OSMF.  Too much of a potential conflict of
interest there.
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Re: [OSM-talk] OSMF: The people you are going to hand over your OSM data ...

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Anthony schreef:
 You're confusing me with Lambertus.  I never said anything good about
 Cloudmade.

I'm not confusing you; it is current practice that the data is used. I
thought that was a /good/ thing. At least I came here for the usage of
data and being making it better, for me that implicitly meant sharing back.


 Actually, Cloudmade is one of the main reasons I fear handing so much
 power (the power to relicense) to OSMF.  Too much of a potential
 conflict of interest there.

Come on; if you want to see a conspiracy there is always one. I think
the best way to prevent this 'power' is to give more people the freedom
to do what they want.

The point now with the license seems to be a copyright claim by the OSMF
prevents /any/ future forks. While the only possible fork point is
actually created by this license change.


If you read the first line of the last paragraph again you might notice
that this might also prevent any commercial party to run away with OSM.
  But I need an law degree to confirm that.


Stefan
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Re: [OSM-talk] New OpenStreetMap iPhone Editor - Mapzen POI Collector

2009-12-07 Thread Frederik Ramm

Nick, Oleg,

thank you for answering.

I'm quite surprised that you are working directly from the API. Nick writes:

 The server is actually quite responsive for POIs - maybe its because
 node queries are faster than way queries and because the bboxes are
 generally very small (equal to a few tiles).

I can imagine that the server is responsive enough if you query for a 
simple POI, or a number of them. But to the best of my knowledge, the 
0.6 API has no call that lets you retrieve only nodes in a certain bbox. 
So do you initially do a slow give me everything in this bbox call and 
simply discard ways and relations?

 around conflicts though.  An alternative is to speed up the main OSM
 server - this is good because then everyone in the community benefits
 (eg Potlatch and other editor users) and mainly because it reduces
 issues around conflicts.  If we ended up doing a CM XAPI, we'd open up
 access to anyone who wanted to use it anyway, so other editors and
 mappers could benefit.

There's surely a lot of potential benefits for the community at large in 
there. I think the OSM admins may already have the idea of replication 
on their radars, where read requests are fulfilled from a different 
server than the writes go to. I don't know if that would be a 
replication on the Postres level or on the application level.

Bye
Frederik


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Re: [OSM-talk] OSMF: The people you are going to hand over your OSM data ...

2009-12-07 Thread Lambertus

I still think that you misunderstand me, or maybe I misunderstand you. I 
thought that Jonh Smith was talking about users starting to map in 
Google's MapMaker and I responded that I would never do that. There is a 
big difference between CM, GF etc that use OSM and Google owning the 
data and not sharing that raw data.

I have no problems with Google using my data, but only if others can use 
it too, which means that the database should be accessible (the planet 
dump). Your contributions are PD, which goes ever further, so you agree 
with this?


Stefan de Konink wrote:
 -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
 Hash: SHA512
 
 Lambertus schreef:
 I'm just curious... why?

 You misunderstand: Google would get my data for free and keep it closed.
 You'd only be able to use it the way Google intends it to be used: their
 map and their navigation software. OSM on the other hand allows you to
 do exactly the same as CM, GF, KPN whatever. There's an huge difference,
 you know that.
 
 You cannot see the process how Cloudmade, Geofabrik and others process
 their data. You do not get anything back from how companies that use OSM
 for visual representation. And if Google offers OSM in GoogleEarth and
 maps you are actually benefiting from several things that you cannot get
 now:
 
 - - Massive adoption, visibility to the general public
 - - Hosting, no more slow world wide tile servers
 - - And most likely if this `evil' company was involved the 'do trace'
 photos
 
 
 Honestly, you are only spreading FUD around a company that does nothing
 more with respect to Geodata then another company in this list wanted to
 do exclusively on OSM data.
 
 You can claim that with 'yournavigation' you do elaborate on the process
 on how routing is done. You are the 'free' side of OSM. Don't forget
 that the amount of 'free' commercial projects here are very small.
 Basically because everyone here seems to be protecting their goods.
 
 If the last thing is the only reason for them to vote yes, then I'm very
 happy I'm having {{PD-user}} and {{OSM-anarchist}} because I want my
 work on this small blue planet to be build upon not duplicated by some
 cheap Indian. (nofi)
 
 
 Stefan
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Re: [OSM-talk] New OpenStreetMap iPhone Editor - Mapzen POI Collector

2009-12-07 Thread Tom Hughes

On 07/12/09 14:16, Frederik Ramm wrote:
 Nick, Oleg,

  thank you for answering.

 I'm quite surprised that you are working directly from the API. Nick writes:

 The server is actually quite responsive for POIs - maybe its because
 node queries are faster than way queries and because the bboxes are
 generally very small (equal to a few tiles).

 I can imagine that the server is responsive enough if you query for a
 simple POI, or a number of them. But to the best of my knowledge, the
 0.6 API has no call that lets you retrieve only nodes in a certain bbox.
 So do you initially do a slow give me everything in this bbox call and
 simply discard ways and relations?

A call to get only points is certainly something we could add and it 
would certainly save quite a bit of work on the server over the normal 
map call and hence hopefully speed things up.

 around conflicts though.  An alternative is to speed up the main OSM
 server - this is good because then everyone in the community benefits
 (eg Potlatch and other editor users) and mainly because it reduces
 issues around conflicts.  If we ended up doing a CM XAPI, we'd open up
 access to anyone who wanted to use it anyway, so other editors and
 mappers could benefit.

 There's surely a lot of potential benefits for the community at large in
 there. I think the OSM admins may already have the idea of replication
 on their radars, where read requests are fulfilled from a different
 server than the writes go to. I don't know if that would be a
 replication on the Postres level or on the application level.

Well TRAPI already exists for the purpose of providing efficient read 
only access to the data for an area.

Tom

-- 
Tom Hughes (t...@compton.nu)
http://www.compton.nu/

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Re: [OSM-talk] [OSM-legal-talk] Are closed issues really closed post ODbL data removal plan

2009-12-07 Thread Matt Amos

On Sun, Dec 6, 2009 at 8:36 PM, Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason
ava...@gmail.com wrote:
So my question is:

if you know any lawyers who would be willing to give legal advice
pro-bono, LWG would be very happy to hear about it.

yes. the plan (subject to change based on technical feasibility, of
course) is here:

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Open_Data_License/Backup_Plan#Marking_elements_.22OK.22

cheers,

matt

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Re: [OSM-talk] OSMF: The people you are going to hand over your OSM data ...

On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 9:01 AM, Stefan de Konink ste...@konink.de wrote:

 -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
 Hash: SHA512

 Anthony schreef:
  You're confusing me with Lambertus.  I never said anything good about
  Cloudmade.

 I'm not confusing you; it is current practice that the data is used. I
 thought that was a /good/ thing.


I think you are confusing me, because I think data use is a good thing too.
In fact, that's why I'm against the ODbL, since it's *more restrictive* than
CC-BY-SA.
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Re: [OSM-talk] New OpenStreetMap iPhone Editor - Mapzen POI Collector

2009-12-07 Thread Nick Whitelegg

A call to get only points is certainly something we could add and it 
would certainly save quite a bit of work on the server over the normal 
map call and hence hopefully speed things up.

What would be really good, I think, to avoid conflicts is to add some API 
code which refuses to add a POI if there is a POI with the same name and 
type tags within a certain distance. It could be optional (the client 
could send a flag to the server to tell it to reject duplicates) but it 
would certainly open up a lot of possibilities client-side to develop easy 
to use POI editing applications.

Nick

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Re: [OSM-talk] OSMF: The people you are going to hand over your OSM data ...

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA512

Lambertus schreef:
 I have no problems with Google using my data, but only if others can
 use it too, which means that the database should be accessible (the
 planet dump). Your contributions are PD, which goes ever further, so
 you agree with this?

Yes. From your standpoint Google could make maps out of OSM data today,
if changes to that data are contributed back, or make available. Nowhere
is required to give up software that does the transformation.


Anthony schreef:
 I think you are confusing me, because I think data use is a good
 thing too.  In fact, that's why I'm against the ODbL, since it's
 *more restrictive* than CC-BY-SA.

I see your point, but it is not my main concern to be against the change :)


Stefan
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Re: [OSM-talk] How is there not any creative-type (US) copyright in OSM data?

Anthony osm at inbox.org writes:

Why do people believe that there no creative copyright in OSM data

I'm going with that assumption because that's what the OSM, Creative Commons,
and Open Data Commons, all are telling us.

Do you have sources for that?  I haven't seen any statement by the OSMF
saying that there is no creativity (and hence, in some countries, no copyright)
in the OSM data.

Similarly I don't think Creative Commons have said that.  They have published
opinions on what licences might be suitable for factual data, but they haven't
made any pronouncement on the legal status of OSM data in particular.

As for Open Data Commons, I don't know, but I would welcome any references.

-- 
Ed Avis e...@waniasset.com


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Re: [OSM-talk] [OSM-legal-talk] Are closed issues really closed post ODbL data removal plan

2009-12-07 Thread Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason

On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 14:32, Matt Amos zerebub...@gmail.com wrote:
On Sun, Dec 6, 2009 at 8:36 PM, Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason
ava...@gmail.com wrote:
So my question is:

if you know any lawyers who would be willing to give legal advice
pro-bono, LWG would be very happy to hear about it.

I've contacted Wikimedia legal about this. Since we'll be using OSM
data this is a concern for Wikimedia. We'll see if they're interested
in reviewing it.

yes. the plan (subject to change based on technical feasibility, of
course) is here:

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Open_Data_License/Backup_Plan#Marking_elements_.22OK.22

Cool. I'll stay posted.

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Re: [OSM-talk] How is there not any creative-type (US) copyright in OSM data?

On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 10:11 AM, Ed Avis e...@waniasset.com wrote:

 Anthony osm at inbox.org writes:

 Why do people believe that there no creative copyright in OSM data

 I'm going with that assumption because that's what the OSM, Creative
 Commons,
 and Open Data Commons, all are telling us.

 Do you have sources for that?  I haven't seen any statement by the OSMF
 saying that there is no creativity (and hence, in some countries, no
 copyright)
 in the OSM data.


I'm basically going on what I read in
http://www.osmfoundation.org/images/3/3c/License_Proposal.pdf and the
supporting documents.  Rereading it, I guess it doesn't come right out and
say that OSM isn't protected by US copyright (although I'd find it extremely
unlikely for such a definitive legal statement to be made even if it were
true).  It implies it, though, and says full background can be read at
http://www.osmfoundation.org/wiki/License/Why_CC_BY-SA_is_Unsuitable , which
in turn says *Conclusion*: It is quite likely that OSM data is not
protected by U.S. (and other jurisdictions') copyright laws.  About as
definitive of a legal statement as you're likely to get for free.  I'm not
sure who the author of that conclusion was, though.  But the OSMF seemingly
endorsed it by linking to it for full background.

Similarly I don't think Creative Commons have said that.  They have
 published
 opinions on what licences might be suitable for factual data, but they
 haven't
 made any pronouncement on the legal status of OSM data in particular.


You're probably right on that.  Again, I didn't read the license proposal
carefully enough, and while it makes the implication that CC made that
conclusion, presenting the CC statement: In the United States, data will be
protected by copyright only if they express creativity. after Creative
Commons themselves have said several times that CC BY-SA is not suitable for
OSM., I now realize that this is misleading.

Good catch.
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Re: [OSM-talk] New OpenStreetMap iPhone Editor - Mapzen POI Collector

2009-12-07 Thread Peter Körner

 Well TRAPI already exists for the purpose of providing efficient read 
 only access to the data for an area.

 From the TRAPI wiki page:
  Trapi does not store all tags, so Trapi data should not be used to
  edit and upload back to openstreetmap.

Peter

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Re: [OSM-talk] New OpenStreetMap iPhone Editor - Mapzen POI Collector

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA512

Peter Körner schreef:
 Well TRAPI already exists for the purpose of providing efficient read 
 only access to the data for an area.
 
  From the TRAPI wiki page:
   Trapi does not store all tags, so Trapi data should not be used to
   edit and upload back to openstreetmap.

There are other implementation that current serve all tags ;)


Stefan
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[OSM-talk] ??? Compatibility of OSM w/ CC-BY-SA sources ???

2009-12-07 Thread Paul Houle

My major concern with a license change is compatibility with 
CC-BY-SA sources such as dbpedia,  wikipedia,  etc.

So far as I'm concerned,  dbpedia and freebase are the core of a 
linked data space that assigns taxonomic identifiers to (most) things 
that exist,  and will really be critical to machine understanding 
efforts going forward.  I think we're going to see additional data 
'stuck' to a growing katamari ball of facts and relationships.  I think 
that that ball of data is going to form a 'giant component' that grows 
explosively,  and anything that isn't legally compatible with that space 
is effectively going to 'disappear;'  one of the reasons why Cyc really 
failed to make a splash is that organizations needed to make a huge 
investment just to get a good look at it.

In the short term I'm primarily concerned w/ displaying slippy maps 
to display CC-BY-SA and PD-derived coordinates and shapes on.  That's 
one issue.  Another,  longer-term,  issue would be the construction of 
new products based on automated reasoning applied to ways in OSM.

Note that freebase seems to be safe to merge with OSM data,  but I'm 
not sure if using OSM data prevents me from pushing 
corrections/enhancements that are found in my processing chain back into 
Freebase.

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Re: [OSM-talk] OSMF: The people you are going to hand over your OSM data ...


On Dec 7, 2009, at 5:48 AM, Stefan de Konink wrote:

 -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
 Hash: SHA512
 
 Lambertus schreef:
 I'm just curious... why?
 
 You misunderstand: Google would get my data for free and keep it closed.
 You'd only be able to use it the way Google intends it to be used: their
 map and their navigation software. OSM on the other hand allows you to
 do exactly the same as CM, GF, KPN whatever. There's an huge difference,
 you know that.
 
 You cannot see the process how Cloudmade, Geofabrik and others process
 their data.

Well the huge difference is that OSM is under a reciprocal license, Google and 
others want us to be PD because they don't want to give anything back. CM wants 
to give back all the time, and does.

 You do not get anything back from how companies that use OSM
 for visual representation. And if Google offers OSM in GoogleEarth and
 maps you are actually benefiting from several things that you cannot get
 now:
 
 - - Massive adoption, visibility to the general public
 - - Hosting, no more slow world wide tile servers
 - - And most likely if this `evil' company was involved the 'do trace'
 photos
 
 
 Honestly, you are only spreading FUD around a company that does nothing
 more with respect to Geodata then another company in this list wanted to
 do exclusively on OSM data.
 
 You can claim that with 'yournavigation' you do elaborate on the process
 on how routing is done. You are the 'free' side of OSM. Don't forget
 that the amount of 'free' commercial projects here are very small.
 Basically because everyone here seems to be protecting their goods.
 
 If the last thing is the only reason for them to vote yes, then I'm very
 happy I'm having {{PD-user}} and {{OSM-anarchist}} because I want my
 work on this small blue planet to be build upon not duplicated by some
 cheap Indian. (nofi)
 
 
 Stefan
 -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
 Version: GnuPG v2.0.13 (GNU/Linux)
 Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/
 
 iEYEAREKAAYFAksc+ZoACgkQYH1+F2Rqwn1CnQCfRkC14ik2wJ1s43JmiaciCdSD
 Hy8AoIbd84MEpnNOB3fRcHrP7DoMFst3
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Re: [OSM-talk] New OpenStreetMap iPhone Editor - Mapzen POI Collector


On Dec 7, 2009, at 7:16 AM, Frederik Ramm wrote:

 Nick, Oleg,
 
thank you for answering.
 
 I'm quite surprised that you are working directly from the API. Nick writes:
 
 The server is actually quite responsive for POIs - maybe its because
 node queries are faster than way queries and because the bboxes are
 generally very small (equal to a few tiles).
 
 I can imagine that the server is responsive enough if you query for a 
 simple POI, or a number of them. But to the best of my knowledge, the 
 0.6 API has no call that lets you retrieve only nodes in a certain bbox. 
 So do you initially do a slow give me everything in this bbox call and 
 simply discard ways and relations?

I guess so, I've not looked at the code, but even then it only lets you do that 
when you're zoomed all the way to z17 or something, so there are very few other 
things to return.

Yours c.

Steve


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Re: [OSM-talk] How is there not any creative-type (US) copyright in OSM data?

2009-12-07 Thread Michael Barabanov

Really, considering how many discussions about how to map things (just
recall all those footway/cycleway discussions) have been on these lists, at
least tagging seems to be a creative process right now.

On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 7:37 AM, Anthony o...@inbox.org wrote:

 On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 10:11 AM, Ed Avis e...@waniasset.com wrote:

 Anthony osm at inbox.org writes:

 Why do people believe that there no creative copyright in OSM data

 I'm going with that assumption because that's what the OSM, Creative
 Commons,
 and Open Data Commons, all are telling us.

 Do you have sources for that?  I haven't seen any statement by the OSMF
 saying that there is no creativity (and hence, in some countries, no
 copyright)
 in the OSM data.


 I'm basically going on what I read in
 http://www.osmfoundation.org/images/3/3c/License_Proposal.pdf and the
 supporting documents.  Rereading it, I guess it doesn't come right out and
 say that OSM isn't protected by US copyright (although I'd find it extremely
 unlikely for such a definitive legal statement to be made even if it were
 true).  It implies it, though, and says full background can be read at
 http://www.osmfoundation.org/wiki/License/Why_CC_BY-SA_is_Unsuitable ,
 which in turn says *Conclusion*: It is quite likely that OSM data is not
 protected by U.S. (and other jurisdictions') copyright laws.  About as
 definitive of a legal statement as you're likely to get for free.  I'm not
 sure who the author of that conclusion was, though.  But the OSMF seemingly
 endorsed it by linking to it for full background.

 Similarly I don't think Creative Commons have said that.  They have
 published
 opinions on what licences might be suitable for factual data, but they
 haven't
 made any pronouncement on the legal status of OSM data in particular.


 You're probably right on that.  Again, I didn't read the license proposal
 carefully enough, and while it makes the implication that CC made that
 conclusion, presenting the CC statement: In the United States, data will be
 protected by copyright only if they express creativity. after Creative
 Commons themselves have said several times that CC BY-SA is not suitable for
 OSM., I now realize that this is misleading.

 Good catch.

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Re: [OSM-talk] [Announce] OSMF license change vote has started


On Dec 6, 2009, at 1:48 AM, Frederik Ramm wrote:

 Hi,
 
 On Sun, Dec 6, 2009 at 4:53 AM, Anthony o...@inbox.org wrote:
 Well, you may think Creative Commons is stupid, but I hope others will
 give them a chance and listen to what they have to say.  I think they will,
 considering that Creative Commons is well known and respected, compared to
 Open Data Commons, who doesn't even seem to have an article on Wikipedia.
 
 I also tend to side with Creative Commons. It is not very wise of ODbL 
 proponents to claim that CC say that CC-BY-SA doesn't work for data 
 without also admitting that CC recommend CC0 for data.

Personally I don't because the former is a legal opinion and the latter is a 
moral crusade opinion.

 
 Matt Amos wrote:
 i have listened to what they have to say, and it makes perfect sense.
 they recognise that databases like OSM's don't have much basis for
 protection in copyright law, so they correctly deduce that there are
 two options:
 
 1) drop requirements enforced by copyright law. this results in a
 PD-like license, to whit: CC0.
 2) enforce requirements by law other than copyright law. this results
 in a database rights/contract license, to whit: ODbL.
 
 creative commons decided, as a policy, that option (1) was preferable,
 as it places fewer restrictions on the use of the data. however, it
 drops the share-alike and attribution requirements. they clearly felt
 that this would provide the best benefit to the scientific community.
 
 This as a policy is something that Steve claims as well, implying that 
 rather than working things out, they just decreed something. But I don't 
 think this does them justice

Not even if John Wilbanks admitted it?

Yours c.

Steve


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Re: [OSM-talk] [Announce] OSMF license change vote has started


On Dec 6, 2009, at 2:03 AM, 80n wrote:

 On Sun, Dec 6, 2009 at 6:00 AM, Matt Amos zerebub...@gmail.com wrote:
 On Sun, Dec 6, 2009 at 5:37 AM, Stefan de Konink ste...@konink.de wrote:
  Matt Amos schreef:
  we're talking about moving to another
  license with very similar requirements, but a different
  implementation, and that's not open and free anymore? it would
  really help me if i could understand your position.
 
  Its honestly terribly simple. We get into a discussion over moving from
  a widely used `GPL2.0' like license that works for everyone, and best of
  all is compatible with everyone.
 
 it does neither of the above. imagine a situation in which source code
 were considered not to generate copyrights. any project licensed under
 GPL2.0 would lose protection. this is the situation we're in:
 copyright very probably doesn't apply to our database, yet the license
 we're using is based entirely on copyright.
 
 also, CC BY-SA isn't compatible with everyone. it's compatible with
 PD, attribution-only and itself. the exact same is true of ODbL.
 
  Some folks here think that BSD style should be our target.
 
 indeed. but wouldn't it be better to find a license which works first,
 then discuss what an even better license might be?
 
  Now the stearing committee thinks that for better protection we should
  go for OSI-APPROVED-LICENSE-X; that nobody is compatible with yet and
  worse. If we were Linux, we would have to remove our cool exotic network
  card drivers just to facilitate this move. And worst of all, all the
  nice vendors we were just talking with that were moved to going open are
  now bound to a contract... that sounds so... formal?
 
 well, such is the nature of legal documents :-(
 
 although, maybe it's familiarity talking, but i find ODbL less formal
 and easier to read than CC BY-SA's legal code.
 
  Until anyone can guarantee that every bit of CC-BY-SA could be used
  without problems in the new framework; I'm a skeptic. And basically
  think about the deletionism in Wikipedia. Or wasting capital in real life.
 
 i'm afraid i can't dispel your skepticism, then. it's possible we
 could just keep all the old CC BY-SA data, since the license governing
 it doesn't work, but i think this would be too radical a step for the
 OSMF board ;-)
 
 It's shocking that you could even have such a thought.  Nevermind the smiley.
 
 You've spent many many hours studying the licensing issues and claim to have 
 a deep understanding of the issues.  If CC BY-SA is as broken as you claim it 
 is then Google, Navteq, Teleatlas and many others would all have helped 
 themselves to our data by now.

No, because there is social pressure too.

 You can't continue to claim that CC BY-SA is broken without some evidence of 
 our data being abused.  Put up or shut up, please.

Absence of evidence...

Yours c.

Steve


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Re: [OSM-talk] OSMF: The people you are going to hand over your OSM data ...

2009-12-07 Thread Michael Barabanov

I wonder how easy it is in fact to usefully take the OSM data without giving
things back, even with the current license.  Seems to me, not so easy. OSM
data is not perfect. To create a value-add, a commercial entity would have
to extend it.  So let's say they do in some non-trivial way (e.g. not just
copy the data wholesale or just create POIs).
The next few updates of OSM in the area in question will likely break those
extensions, as there doesn't seem to be a way to merge non-trivial changes
(e.g. topology changes).
The best course of action for such a commercial entity would be to
contribute things back then.

On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 8:50 AM, SteveC st...@asklater.com wrote:


 On Dec 7, 2009, at 5:48 AM, Stefan de Konink wrote:

  -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
  Hash: SHA512
 
  Lambertus schreef:
  I'm just curious... why?
 
  You misunderstand: Google would get my data for free and keep it closed.
  You'd only be able to use it the way Google intends it to be used: their
  map and their navigation software. OSM on the other hand allows you to
  do exactly the same as CM, GF, KPN whatever. There's an huge difference,
  you know that.
 
  You cannot see the process how Cloudmade, Geofabrik and others process
  their data.

 Well the huge difference is that OSM is under a reciprocal license, Google
 and others want us to be PD because they don't want to give anything back.
 CM wants to give back all the time, and does.

  You do not get anything back from how companies that use OSM
  for visual representation. And if Google offers OSM in GoogleEarth and
  maps you are actually benefiting from several things that you cannot get
  now:
 
  - - Massive adoption, visibility to the general public
  - - Hosting, no more slow world wide tile servers
  - - And most likely if this `evil' company was involved the 'do trace'
  photos
 
 
  Honestly, you are only spreading FUD around a company that does nothing
  more with respect to Geodata then another company in this list wanted to
  do exclusively on OSM data.
 
  You can claim that with 'yournavigation' you do elaborate on the process
  on how routing is done. You are the 'free' side of OSM. Don't forget
  that the amount of 'free' commercial projects here are very small.
  Basically because everyone here seems to be protecting their goods.
 
  If the last thing is the only reason for them to vote yes, then I'm very
  happy I'm having {{PD-user}} and {{OSM-anarchist}} because I want my
  work on this small blue planet to be build upon not duplicated by some
  cheap Indian. (nofi)
 
 
  Stefan
  -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
  Version: GnuPG v2.0.13 (GNU/Linux)
  Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/
 
  iEYEAREKAAYFAksc+ZoACgkQYH1+F2Rqwn1CnQCfRkC14ik2wJ1s43JmiaciCdSD
  Hy8AoIbd84MEpnNOB3fRcHrP7DoMFst3
  =h31Z
  -END PGP SIGNATURE-
 
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 Steve


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Re: [OSM-talk] OSMF: The people you are going to hand over your OSM data ...


On Dec 7, 2009, at 10:06 AM, Michael Barabanov wrote:

 I wonder how easy it is in fact to usefully take the OSM data without giving 
 things back, even with the current license.  Seems to me, not so easy. OSM 
 data is not perfect. To create a value-add, a commercial entity would have to 
 extend it.  So let's say they do in some non-trivial way (e.g. not just copy 
 the data wholesale or just create POIs).
 The next few updates of OSM in the area in question will likely break those 
 extensions, as there doesn't seem to be a way to merge non-trivial changes 
 (e.g. topology changes).
 The best course of action for such a commercial entity would be to contribute 
 things back then.

I take your point, but right now you can basically assume Google is infinitely 
smart with infinite resources unless it's something that involves a community, 
as we've seen. And PD wouldn't involve one.

Yours c.

Steve


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Re: [OSM-talk] OSMF: The people you are going to hand over your OSM data ...


On Dec 5, 2009, at 8:25 PM, 80n wrote:

 On Sat, Dec 5, 2009 at 11:41 PM, SteveC st...@asklater.com wrote:
 
 On Dec 5, 2009, at 4:25 PM, Ulf Lamping wrote:
  Remember: Steve is the head of the OSMF, so this is the OSMF Chairman's
  position about other peoples opinions when they don't share his own opinion.
 
 I'm not allowed to have opinions?
 
  Is this the organization you want to hand over the license of your OSM data?
 
 The OSMF wont own the data and you know it.
 
 The Contributor Terms contains the following clause:  You hereby grant to 
 OSMF and any party that receives Your Contents a worldwide, royalty-free, 
 non-exclusive, perpetual, irrevocable license to do any act that is 
 restricted by copyright over anything within the Contents, whether in the 
 original medium or any other.
 
 That's pretty much as close as you can get to owning a piece of data.

I think matt killed this.

Yours c.

Steve


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Re: [OSM-talk] OSMF: The people you are going to hand over your OSM data ...

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA512

SteveC schreef:
 You cannot see the process how Cloudmade, Geofabrik and others
 process their data.
 
 Well the huge difference is that OSM is under a reciprocal license,

What a difficult set of words were that; honestly never heard of those
before.


 Google and others want us to be PD because they don't want to give
 anything back. 

Never heard that, if Yahoo is giving us aerial photography to trace, why
wouldn't Google do that for us?


 CM wants to give back all the time, and does.

I don't see how CM can compete in giving back new data, opposed to
Google. Google is not related to OSM an anyway and they still 'do good'
in sponsoring and like for many other OpenSource related projects GSOC.

If CM's primary focus is on creating additional value to the data, for
CM to profit from available data, then what CM is giving back is not in
terms of being a data provider, but just a commercial user like any
other. That makes asking for example for the optimized routing tables
irrelevant because the data is a derived product, but useless for the
community that doesn't have the software.



If we go back to the no advantage not to share equilibrium where we all
started from, that would be a great step a head. It already shows that
when working on PD data we are making data better, I just can't see any
argument that will debunk that statement when company X makes our data
better.


Stefan
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IMEAmwXCLEVN3mzEMxxSadJxdrCtHh8F
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Re: [OSM-talk] OSMF: The people you are going to hand over your OSM data ...


On Dec 7, 2009, at 10:17 AM, Stefan de Konink wrote:

 -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
 Hash: SHA512
 
 SteveC schreef:
 You cannot see the process how Cloudmade, Geofabrik and others
 process their data.
 
 Well the huge difference is that OSM is under a reciprocal license,
 
 What a difficult set of words were that; honestly never heard of those
 before.

I have no idea what that means.

 
 Google and others want us to be PD because they don't want to give
 anything back. 
 
 Never heard that, if Yahoo is giving us aerial photography to trace, why
 wouldn't Google do that for us?

Ask Google. It might have something to do with the fact that they want to own 
all the data. Hint hint.

 I don't see how CM can compete in giving back new data, opposed to
 Google.

See above. The world has moved on from thinking Google is a benevolent force, 
get with the times.

Yours c.

Steve


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Re: [OSM-talk] OSMF: The people you are going to hand over your OSM data ...

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA512

SteveC schreef:
 I have no idea what that means.

I had no idea about reciprocal license either.

 Ask Google. It might have something to do with the fact that they
 want to own all the data. Hint hint.

I have asked Google; Tim was sitting there too. The only thing *we* have
to present is a business case why it would be good for Google to provide
us the 'can trace' material.

I think the best business case would be: We trace your photo's for OSM,
we provide you the traces.

I see a total win-win here. Anyone that wants to make OSM better can
help OSM by contributing to OSM and GoogleMaps. This is not cheap labor,
this is value for photo's.


 I don't see how CM can compete in giving back new data, opposed to 
 Google.
 
 See above. The world has moved on from thinking Google is a
 benevolent force, get with the times.

And so do they about CM... and probably any company that doesn't give
them Christmas presents.


Stefan
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Re: [OSM-talk] OSMF: The people you are going to hand over your OSM data ...


On Dec 7, 2009, at 10:30 AM, Stefan de Konink wrote:

 -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
 Hash: SHA512
 
 SteveC schreef:
 I have no idea what that means.
 
 I had no idea about reciprocal license either.
 
 Ask Google. It might have something to do with the fact that they
 want to own all the data. Hint hint.
 
 I have asked Google; Tim was sitting there too. The only thing *we* have
 to present is a business case why it would be good for Google to provide
 us the 'can trace' material.
 
 I think the best business case would be: We trace your photo's for OSM,
 we provide you the traces.

I think that developing their own tools, infrastructure, branding, product 
management... for MapMaker might give away what they think about that.

Yours c.

Steve


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Re: [OSM-talk] OSMF: The people you are going to hand over your OSM data ...

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA512

SteveC schreef:
 I think that developing their own tools, infrastructure, branding,
 product management... for MapMaker might give away what they think
 about that.

I think you are a little bit biased. Only a little bit :) And if this
is/becomes the OSM Foundation standpoint, I am not surprised such things
will never get any follow up ;)


Stefan
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Re: [OSM-talk] OSMF: The people you are going to hand over your OSM data ...


On Dec 7, 2009, at 10:40 AM, Stefan de Konink wrote:

 -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
 Hash: SHA512
 
 SteveC schreef:
 I think that developing their own tools, infrastructure, branding,
 product management... for MapMaker might give away what they think
 about that.
 
 I think you are a little bit biased. Only a little bit :) And if this
 is/becomes the OSM Foundation standpoint, I am not surprised such things
 will never get any follow up ;)

Google was asked publicly at SOTM all about this, of course it's been followed 
up.

Yours c.

Steve


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[OSM-talk] Coastlines and Structures

2009-12-07 Thread David Fawcett

I have some questions about standard practices for coastlines and
structures that define or protrude from the coast.  Is there a
specific place for discussion of this topic area, or is this list the
best place?

Thanks,

David.

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Re: [OSM-talk] OSM/GoogleMap mashup

2009-12-07 Thread Claudius

Am 06.12.2009 12:24, Ciprian Talaba:

 On Sun, Dec 6, 2009 at 1:08 PM, Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org
 mailto:frede...@remote.org wrote:

 Hi,

 Steve Bennett wrote:
   Wondering if there is a site that overlays OSM data over
 GoogleMaps (or
   any other site, for that matter)?

 Several, for example

 http://tools.geofabrik.de/mc

 with a side-by side comparison and

 http://sautter.com/map/

 with a transparent overlay.

 Or (sorry it is available only in romanian, but try Hibrid):
 www.openmap.ro http://www.openmap.ro. The data is available worldwide.

 --Ciprian

Now that's a cool presentation. Did you ever thought about rendering 
rivers/lakes/areas half-transparent? Or maybe event tried to set the OSM 
layer transparency to 20%?

Claudius


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Re: [OSM-legal-talk] OSMF license change vote has started

2009-12-07 Thread Mike Collinson

At 12:28 AM 7/12/2009, Simon Ward wrote:

Ive received the mail, answered the poll, and also the preference poll.

In the preference poll, I understand the term viral licenseâ but ask
that people refrain from using that term:  It has the implication that
it is a bad thing - it may be in some peoples minds, but while were
trying to prevent all sides equally it should be avoided.  An
alternative term is reciprocal license.

Simon

I believe there was a discussion that viral does necessarily mean 
reciprocal, hence the use of the word. I'll check tomorrow if no one else 
comes back.

Mike 



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Re: [OSM-talk] OSMF: The people you are going to hand over your OSM data ...

2009-12-07 Thread Frederik Ramm

Hi,

Michael Barabanov wrote:
 To create a value-add, a commercial 
 entity would have to extend it.

That surely is one way to create added value.

 So let's say they do in some 
 non-trivial way (e.g. not just copy the data wholesale or just create POIs).
 The next few updates of OSM in the area in question will likely break 
 those extensions, as there doesn't seem to be a way to merge non-trivial 
 changes (e.g. topology changes).
 The best course of action for such a commercial entity would be to 
 contribute things back then.

Totally true, and actually a good argument for the PD case. Anyone who 
takes OSM data and improves it privately is likely to to invest much 
more in tracking OSM than it would cost him to just release his data 
into OSM and save the effort.

Bye
Frederik

-- 
Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail frede...@remote.org  ##  N49°00'09 E008°23'33

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Re: [OSM-talk] OSM/GoogleMap mashup

2009-12-07 Thread Ciprian Talaba

On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 8:06 PM, Claudius claudiu...@gmx.de wrote:

  Or (sorry it is available only in romanian, but try Hibrid):
  www.openmap.ro http://www.openmap.ro. The data is available worldwide.
 
  --Ciprian

 Now that's a cool presentation. Did you ever thought about rendering
 rivers/lakes/areas half-transparent? Or maybe event tried to set the OSM
 layer transparency to 20%?

 Claudius


 No, but I will start to think about it right now :)

--Ciprian
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Re: [OSM-talk] Thank you, LWG

Jonas Krückel osm at jonas-krueckel.de writes:

I'm not sure if the CC-BY-SA license is really simpler than ODbL. Just look at
this website here http://www.opendatacommons.org/licenses/odbl/summary/ and
you'll see that the ODbL is as simple as CC-BY-SA.

That summary page is great but unfortunately it's not what is on offer.
The real text of the ODbL is much more complex, starting off with advice to
'Please seek the advice of a suitably qualified legal professional licensed to
practice in your jurisdiction before using this document' and not getting any
simpler from there.

If someone turned that summary page into a licence document, I'd be pretty
happy to use that.  (Such a licence would look pretty similar to the CC-BY-SA we
use currently.)

Plus it's now clear how to attribute correct and when your derived work also
has to be ShareAlike and when not.

Well, perhaps.  The attribution is certainly clearer.

-- 
Ed Avis e...@waniasset.com


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Re: [OSM-talk] OSMF: The people you are going to hand over your OSM data ...

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA512

Frederik Ramm schreef:
 Totally true, and actually a good argument for the PD case. Anyone who 
 takes OSM data and improves it privately is likely to to invest much 
 more in tracking OSM than it would cost him to just release his data 
 into OSM and save the effort.

But exactly the same goes for OSM. If there is a high quality source
that updates lets say every 3 months. It will be more easy to destroy
all changes than track them. Which is kinda... unwanted.


Stefan
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Version: GnuPG v2.0.13 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/

iEYEAREKAAYFAksdTdEACgkQYH1+F2Rqwn1PPACePujvfO1NlrBrBWsGWA3FcZJw
dBAAnjkaPP6BrSUL9XmQPFFYJK9yqRXg
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Re: [OSM-talk] [Announce] OSMF license change vote has started

SteveC steve at asklater.com writes:

With a gun at their head: Refuse: After the migration (currently 26th 
February 2010), your contributions will not be included in ODbL licensed 
downloads and you will not be able to continue contributing..
 
If you call this a vote, then we have pretty different understanding 
about voting.

For some crazy reason the LWG thought it should start with the members of the
OSMF, you know, the OSMF which set up the LWG in the first place and then move
on to thousands of contributors once the members had decided what to do.

But this is exactly what is objected to!  First the LWG 'decides what
to do' and then the ordinary contributors are given a stark choice:
agree or have your data deleted from OSM.

Shouldn't the contributors 'decide what to do' without the 'gun to
their head', as Ulf called it?  One way to do that would be to have a
vote of all contributors, not just OSMF members, and only if that
shows clear support for relicensing (defined as 'yes, I think it is a
good idea' - not 'yes, I will reluctantly agree to avoid seeing my
hard work deleted') move on to the unpleasant but sadly necessary
business of getting permission to relicense and deleting data that
can't be relicensed.

Now, this might be what is planned; there is a lot of confusion on
this subject.  I know that the final decision on whether to proceed
will depend on how many contributors are willing to relicense, though
I don't know what exact numbers are being considered.  However, if the
choice offered is 'say yes or be kicked out' then this is not a fair
choice.

It would reassure everyone if you and the OSMF could state that there
will be a fair consultation or vote of the members, rather than
presenting them with a fait accompli from the LWG.

-- 
Ed Avis e...@waniasset.com


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Re: [OSM-talk] OSM/GoogleMap mashup

2009-12-07 Thread Sam Vekemans

Hi all,
Here's the link to the Google earth kml overlay that can do transparencies.

I use it with the yahoo imagery  the OpenCycleMap layer on, and all the
other layers off.
It works great!

Cristian Streng http://www.mgmaps.com/feedback.php?topic=18 is working on
it, so far the OSM Appribution is in yellow next in the bottom left corner.
but that can be changed.   Last i chatted, i asked about that and because
its un clear what the 'offical' representation is (it's not listed on the
main OSM map).  So it's hard to say.

I think its ok that i display it when recording on uStream.tv since it's OSM
stuff, and im not making any money from it.

http://www.mgmaps.com/kml/

cheers,
Sam


On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 10:17 AM, Ciprian Talaba cipriantal...@gmail.comwrote:

 On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 8:06 PM, Claudius claudiu...@gmx.de wrote:

  Or (sorry it is available only in romanian, but try Hibrid):
  www.openmap.ro http://www.openmap.ro. The data is available
 worldwide.
 
  --Ciprian

 Now that's a cool presentation. Did you ever thought about rendering
 rivers/lakes/areas half-transparent? Or maybe event tried to set the OSM
 layer transparency to 20%?

 Claudius


  No, but I will start to think about it right now :)

 --Ciprian

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Re: [OSM-talk] [Announce] OSMF license change vote has started

SteveC steve at asklater.com writes:

It is not very wise of ODbL 
proponents to claim that CC say that CC-BY-SA doesn't work for data 
without also admitting that CC recommend CC0 for data.
 
Personally I don't because the former is a legal opinion and the latter is a
moral crusade opinion.

...and that is your opinion.  But not universally shared.

It is usually better to try hard to acknowledge the other side, so I really
think you need to be careful about mentioning CC's verdict on CC-BY-SA
without also mentioning their view about the ODbL.  Even if you think one
of the two views is wrongheaded or a 'moral crusade', if you would like to
mention Creative Commons to back up an argument against CC-BY-SA, you really
have a duty to give both sides.  If nothing else, doing so avoids starting
yet another side-discussion as people jump in to point out what you
deliberately omitted.

(As I read the CC people's comments on the ODbL, they genuinely are legal
and practical ones, being concerned with legal certainty and with the
licence's understandability to non-experts.)

-- 
Ed Avis e...@waniasset.com


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Re: [OSM-talk] Opinion poll about the new licence Odbl 1.0

2009-12-07 Thread Mike Collinson

At 09:24 PM 6/12/2009, morb@beagle.com.au wrote:
Quoting Anthony o...@inbox.org:

 Part of me suspects that this whole notion of removing contributions from
 people who don't agree is going to get dropped.  At least for the
 contributors who don't respond one way or the other.  It's just going to
 destroy too much of the database.

Wow, this whole issue has kept me up all night, just reading through the emails
and having the implications dawn on me.


Have I got this straight?  That I *must* agree to this odbl licence, or my
(considerable) amount of edits will get *nuked* from the canonical OSM
database?  What a Hobson's choice.

I'd better go and see what this odbl is then?

Good idea. ;-) 

We really, really, really, like to keep your and everyone's edits going 
forward. But we have to respect your choice. Under the current regime, you are 
allowing your contributions to be used only under CC BY SA 2.0.  We could duck 
the issue now, but does even the most diehard  CC BY SA 2.0 supporter expect us 
to want the same license in 5 years, in 50 years?  

Our intent is that ODbL is designed with the same rights as current license in 
mind, but clears up CC BY-SA ambiguities.  One of the objectives of current 
activity is to get reasonable community consensus that is indeed the case, 
before presenting you with this choice.

Mike

http://www.osmfoundation.org/images/3/3c/License_Proposal.pdf - An overview of 
the whole shebang

http://www.opendatacommons.org/licenses/odbl/summary/ ODbL Plain Language 
Summary

http://www.opendatacommons.org/licenses/odbl/1.0/  ODbL 1.0









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Re: [OSM-talk] [OSM-legal-talk] Are closed issues really closed post ODbL data removal plan

2009-12-07 Thread 80n

On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 2:32 PM, Matt Amos zerebub...@gmail.com wrote:

On Sun, Dec 6, 2009 at 8:36 PM, Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason
ava...@gmail.com wrote:
So my question is:

if you know any lawyers who would be willing to give legal advice
pro-bono, LWG would be very happy to hear about it.

yes. the plan (subject to change based on technical feasibility, of
course) is here:

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Open_Data_License/Backup_Plan#Marking_elements_.22OK.22

How will way splits and merges be handled? The history is only retained
for one half of any way that is split, and the history is discarded for one
of the two ways when merged.

There is no information recorded about split and merge events, so you can
never be sure that you have a complete history for any way. Unless you plan
to do some very complex analysis that can spot that a block of nodes moved
from one way to another then you don't have a complete history.

The same is probably true for relations.

Additionally, in one of the early api changes, when segments were combined
into ways all of the history was discarded. I assume it was archived
somewhere. Ways that were created from a series of segments will not have a
complete history unless this archive is recovered and incorporated into the
analysis.
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Re: [OSM-talk] Thank you, LWG

2009-12-07 Thread Grant Slater

2009/12/7 Ed Avis e...@waniasset.com:
 Jonas Krückel osm at jonas-krueckel.de writes:

I'm not sure if the CC-BY-SA license is really simpler than ODbL. Just look at
this website here http://www.opendatacommons.org/licenses/odbl/summary/ and
you'll see that the ODbL is as simple as CC-BY-SA.

 That summary page is great but unfortunately it's not what is on offer.
 The real text of the ODbL is much more complex, starting off with advice to
 'Please seek the advice of a suitably qualified legal professional licensed to
 practice in your jurisdiction before using this document' and not getting any
 simpler from there.


Quote from Creative Commons BY SA Summary Disclaimer:
The Commons Deed is not a license. It is simply a handy reference for
understanding the Legal Code (the full license) — it is a
human-readable expression of some of its key terms. Think of it as the
user-friendly interface to the Legal Code beneath. This Deed itself
has no legal value, and its contents do not appear in the actual
license.

Creative Commons is not a law firm and does not provide legal
services. Distributing of, displaying of, or linking to this Commons
Deed does not create an attorney-client relationship. 

Look familiar? :-)

http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/2.0/
Click the disclaimer link bottom right, it is hidden behind a popup.

/ Grant

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Re: [OSM-talk] [Announce] OSMF license change vote has started


On Dec 7, 2009, at 11:53 AM, Ed Avis wrote:

 SteveC steve at asklater.com writes:
 
 With a gun at their head: Refuse: After the migration (currently 26th 
 February 2010), your contributions will not be included in ODbL licensed 
 downloads and you will not be able to continue contributing..
 
 If you call this a vote, then we have pretty different understanding 
 about voting.
 
 For some crazy reason the LWG thought it should start with the members of the
 OSMF, you know, the OSMF which set up the LWG in the first place and then 
 move
 on to thousands of contributors once the members had decided what to do.
 
 But this is exactly what is objected to!  First the LWG 'decides what
 to do'

I'll stop you right there. They decided with open minutes, phone calls and open 
calls to be on the working group. How much more open would you like it to be?

Just because you disagree with the result doesn't make the process invalid.

Yours c.

Steve


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Re: [OSM-talk] [Osmf-talk] Share Alike images

On Tue, 8 Dec 2009, Matt Amos wrote:
 let's take a look at some evidence, the doodle.com poll. currently there
 are 225 respondents, breaking down into 76% yes, 12% no and 12% don't
 know. that's a significant proportion of yes.

 furthermore, 62% of yes correspondents feel that their data should be
 PD. overall 5 times more people feel that their data is PD than that we
 should continue with CC BY-SA*.

 in about three weeks we'll have more evidence from the OSMF members and
 we will be able to see what the views of the community really are,
 rather than making trolling statements about based on our own
 expectations of them are.

 cheers,

 matt


 *: although i'm sure that'll change now...


That poll is evidence that the poll should cover all users. 
225 respondents out of tens of thousands of contributors will not reach 
significance.
The high response for PD indicates that a number of people want open data and 
that any question on licence should contain a lot of options.
I would expect then a run-off poll like in France, we eliminate the least 
popular choices and revote.
I do not want preferential voting as in Australia (we are all always confused 
by it)


I presume the terms of reference for the LWG were to find and modify an 
alternate licence rather than to find out what alternate licence did 
contributors want? because if the majority go PD they have wasted all that 
work and effort in protecting data when the copyright owners (ie 
contributors) decide to give it away instead.


What is the plan from the OSMF Board if ODbL is not accepted?
Is it to try again every 6 months?
Is it to leave the licence as is?
Is it to go PD?





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Re: [OSM-talk] [Osmf-talk] Share Alike images

2009-12-07 Thread Pieren

On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 10:07 PM, Liz ed...@billiau.net wrote:

 That poll is evidence that the poll should cover all users.
 225 respondents out of tens of thousands of contributors will not reach
 significance.


I agree, this poll has no scientific value as people might reply
multiple times and nobody can say if the sample is representative or
not. But at least, I tried to do what the OSMF never did : see what
contributors , not the 15 same people talking on the list but the
silent majority, are thinking about the new licence.

Pieren

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Re: [OSM-talk] [Osmf-talk] Share Alike images

2009-12-07 Thread Elizabeth Dodd

On Tue, 8 Dec 2009, Pieren wrote:
 On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 10:07 PM, Liz ed...@billiau.net wrote:
  That poll is evidence that the poll should cover all users.
  225 respondents out of tens of thousands of contributors will not reach
  significance.

 I agree, this poll has no scientific value as people might reply
 multiple times and nobody can say if the sample is representative or
 not. But at least, I tried to do what the OSMF never did : see what
 contributors , not the 15 same people talking on the list but the
 silent majority, are thinking about the new licence.

 Pieren

More than that, you added additional questions, and the results are important.
I think that the pilot study shows that contributors - the current copyright 
holders - have different views to those assumed by the protectionist lobby.





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[OSM-talk] ODL - my use case

2009-12-07 Thread hanoj

Hello,
I'm making clear my knowledge about OpenData License and I have
specified a practical example from cartographic practice on the wiki:
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Open_Data_License/Use_Cases#Map_composite_from_OSM_and_commercial_data

Is there anyone to answer OK or not OK according to the new OSM license?
And eventually anyone to create new use case with same contents and
correct it to a legal variant?

PS: my use case is without butterflies and kids´ game

thanks

Hanoj

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Re: [OSM-talk] ??? Compatibility of OSM w/ CC-BY-SA sources ???

2009/12/8 Paul Houle p...@ontology2.com:
    My major concern with a license change is compatibility with
 CC-BY-SA sources such as dbpedia,  wikipedia,  etc.

    So far as I'm concerned,  dbpedia and freebase are the core of a
 linked data space that assigns taxonomic identifiers to (most) things
 that exist,  and will really be critical to machine understanding
 efforts going forward.  I think we're going to see additional data
 'stuck' to a growing katamari ball of facts and relationships.  I think
 that that ball of data is going to form a 'giant component' that grows
 explosively,  and anything that isn't legally compatible with that space
 is effectively going to 'disappear;'  one of the reasons why Cyc really
 failed to make a splash is that organizations needed to make a huge
 investment just to get a good look at it.

    In the short term I'm primarily concerned w/ displaying slippy maps
 to display CC-BY-SA and PD-derived coordinates and shapes on.  That's
 one issue.  Another,  longer-term,  issue would be the construction of
 new products based on automated reasoning applied to ways in OSM.

    Note that freebase seems to be safe to merge with OSM data,  but I'm
 not sure if using OSM data prevents me from pushing
 corrections/enhancements that are found in my processing chain back into
 Freebase.

This is my personal opinion, based on probably wrong information, but
since no one else answered this might inspire someone to come up with
a better answer :)

Wikipedia is US based, and in the US a collection of facts can't be
copyrighted and neither can a location, so even though wikipedia is
cc-by-sa the factual information + location data isn't copyrightable
so cc-by-sa doesn't apply.

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Re: [OSM-talk] Coastlines and Structures

2009/12/8 David Fawcett david.fawc...@gmail.com:
 I have some questions about standard practices for coastlines and
 structures that define or protrude from the coast.  Is there a
 specific place for discussion of this topic area, or is this list the
 best place?

For tagging, there is now a tagging list to discuss such things.

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Re: [OSM-talk] Coastlines and Structures

2009-12-07 Thread David Groom

- Original Message - 
From: David Fawcett david.fawc...@gmail.com
To: talk@openstreetmap.org
Sent: Monday, December 07, 2009 5:51 PM
Subject: [OSM-talk] Coastlines and Structures

 I have some questions about standard practices for coastlines and
 structures that define or protrude from the coast.  Is there a
 specific place for discussion of this topic area, or is this list the
 best place?

 Thanks,

I guess either here or the tagging list, but I suspect the answer is that 
there is no standard practice.

David

 David.

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Re: [OSM-talk] OSM Licence vote

2009-12-07 Thread Jason Cunningham

Can I also be sorry for being pedantic and point out an issue with the
license.

The OSMF decided to base themselves in the UK and is
A company limited by guarantee, registered in England and Wales. Company
Registration Number: 05912761

The Articles of Association [
http://www.osmfoundation.org/wiki/Articles_of_Association] details the role
/ function of the organisation in detail, and offers definitions of words
used. What is clear is that the decision to base themselves in the UK as a
British Company means the 'legal language' of the OSMF is British English.

Now for the pedantic part
The proposed licence appears to be in American English, but doesn't state
that.
I think it is important that the 'core' or 'main copy' uses the language of
the country in which this company has based themselves, and the same
language as the 'The Articles of Association'
At the very least its 'bad practice' to have your 'Articles of Association'
in one language and your licence in second.

It's a small issue to have someone suitably qualified read through the
American license and translate it into British 'legalese', but something
that should be done. Suppose you could move the foundation to the USA.

It would also be worth looking at what Creative Common do, and provide the
licence in several different languages.

(I think I support the licence/license change, but I need to read more.
Sadly not a member of the OSMF because of their links with Paypal, a point
of principle for me)
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Re: [OSM-talk] ??? Compatibility of OSM w/ CC-BY-SA sources ???

2009-12-07 Thread Henk Hoff

2009/12/7 Paul Houle p...@ontology2.com

My major concern with a license change is compatibility with
 CC-BY-SA sources such as dbpedia,  wikipedia,  etc.

In the short term I'm primarily concerned w/ displaying slippy maps
 to display CC-BY-SA and PD-derived coordinates and shapes on.  That's
 one issue.


A slippy map is an image (a creative work bases on factual data [= OSM]),
which may be CC-BY-SA or any other license of your choice.
If the coordinates and shapes you want to show on the map are in a different
and separate database, you're fine. ODbL makes distinction between
collective and derivative databases. This example is the first.


 Another,  longer-term,  issue would be the construction of
 new products based on automated reasoning applied to ways in OSM.

 This sounds like a derivative database. As long as you make this database
publicly available under a compatible license as OSM you're fine.


Note that freebase seems to be safe to merge with OSM data,  but I'm
 not sure if using OSM data prevents me from pushing
 corrections/enhancements that are found in my processing chain back into
 Freebase.


Depends on whether the license of Freebase is considered a compatible
license.


Cheers,
Henk
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Re: [OSM-talk] OSM Licence vote

2009-12-07 Thread Henk Hoff

2009/12/8 Jason Cunningham jamicu...@googlemail.com


 (I think I support the licence/license change, but I need to read more.
 Sadly not a member of the OSMF because of their links with Paypal, a point
 of principle for me)


You might want to take a look that this page...
http://www.osmfoundation.org/wiki/Join/International_Bank_Transfer

Cheers,
Henk
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Re: [OSM-talk] How is there not any creative-type (US) copyright in OSM data?

On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 11:52 AM, Michael Barabanov 
michael.baraba...@gmail.com wrote:

 Really, considering how many discussions about how to map things (just
 recall all those footway/cycleway discussions) have been on these lists, at
 least tagging seems to be a creative process right now.


But if it's copyrighted, who owns the copyright on it?  Each person who uses
the tag?  The people who participate in the list discussion?  The OSMF?

If the OSM database were a work for hire, and all of us mappers were
employees, it'd be one thing.  Then, I think a thin copyright would probably
be meaningful.  But it isn't a work for hire, so whatever copyright there is
is spread out among 100,000 different people.

Arguably, if there is a copyright on the OSM database, it is collectively
owned as a work of joint authorship with 100,000 or so joint authors.  That
means any one of the 100,000 authors can use the OSM database any way they
want, and all they have to do is split the profits 100,000 ways.  Of course,
that's ridiculous, so it's unlikely a judge would ever hold that to be the
case (unless maybe she'd recently read a book on jurisprudence written by
King Solomon).
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Re: [OSM-talk] Opinion poll about the new licence Odbl 1.0

On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 2:11 PM, Mike Collinson m...@ayeltd.biz wrote:

 We really, really, really, like to keep your and everyone's edits going
 forward. But we have to respect your choice. Under the current regime, you
 are allowing your contributions to be used only under CC BY SA 2.0.  We
 could duck the issue now, but does even the most diehard  CC BY SA 2.0
 supporter expect us to want the same license in 5 years, in 50 years?


What about dual licensing under CC-BY-SA and ODbL?  That way you can keep
the CC-BY-SA contributions.

Of course, it doesn't make much sense, because the whole point of ODbL is
that it's more restrictive than CC-BY-SA.  But it shows that the problem at
least some of us have is not any change, it's this particular change.
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Re: [OSM-talk] How is there not any creative-type (US) copyright in OSM data?

2009/12/8 Anthony o...@inbox.org:
 But if it's copyrighted, who owns the copyright on it?  Each person who uses
 the tag?  The people who participate in the list discussion?  The OSMF?

You own the copyright on your changes but you also agreed to release
it at present under CC-BY-SA, as does everyone else, so all
contributors own the copyright, but you also license your changes
under cc-by-sa so there is no one owner.

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Re: [OSM-talk] Opinion poll about the new licence Odbl 1.0

Anthony osm at inbox.org writes:

What about dual licensing under CC-BY-SA and ODbL?  That way you can keep the
CC-BY-SA contributions.Of course, it doesn't make much sense, because the whole
point of ODbL is that it's more restrictive than CC-BY-SA.

It makes a little bit of sense: the ODbL does have looser attribution
requirements and would (I believe) make it possible to produce public domain map
tiles, rather than having them CC-BY-SA.  That might open up a few new
applications or encourage a few companies which have been reluctant to use the
data under CC to start using it under ODbL.  (Though personally I doubt that 
many
will - legal departments frightened by Creative Commons licences are unlikely to
look kindly on the much more legalistic ODbL.)

I think it would be a better transition, though - start using ODbL in parallel
now, and if at some point in the future CC-BY-SA licensing is shown to cause
real problems with enforcing share-alike (which on all available real-world
evidence so far looks unlikely, but I'm told the possibility exists) then there
could be a separate decision to move to ODbL only (which would not require
deleting people's data).

-- 
Ed Avis e...@waniasset.com


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Re: [OSM-talk] CORINE Land Cover import in Estonia completed

2009-12-07 Thread Margus Värton

Margus Värton wrote:
 I am glad to inform You that CORINE Land Cover data for Estonia is 
 currently being imported. It takes some time and some manual or 
 semi-manual intervention but in few days we should have much improved 
 map data.
   
CORINE Land Cover data import for Estonia completed, coastline and 
administrative boundaries being fixed manually. In addition to CORINE 
data administrative boundaries for Estonia itself, counties, parishes, 
cities, towns and villages imported from official data. Enjoy the results:
http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=58.3523lon=26.7218zoom=12layers=B000FTF.

- M -


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Re: [OSM-talk-nl] Ooit data overgenomen en geïmporte erd in OSM?

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA512

Rejo Zenger schreef:
 ++ 07/12/09 01:35 +0100 - Stefan de Konink:
 Voor mij betekent het apart zetten van de niet geclearde data, op een 
 plaats waar het mag bit-rotten, hetzelfde als weggooien.
 Waarom zou het gaan bitrotten als de mensen die niet van de licentie
 willen veranderen daar gewoon verder gaan ;)
 
 Yeah, yeah. Zo gemakkelijk ligt dat niet. Even afgezien van de (on-) 
 wenselijkheid van een fork van het project, is het opslitsen van de data 
 een stuk lastiger dan vaak wordt gesuggereerd.

Mijn inziens is de overgang naar de ODbL de fork die plaatsvindt. En
waarvan wordt gehoopt dat iedereen meegaat.


Stefan
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Version: GnuPG v2.0.13 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/

iEYEAREKAAYFAksc6wwACgkQYH1+F2Rqwn25XACfSK5SA/jeAXhhrhJds39+Xniq
HjAAn1659p+t7zE/ZiLuOaIoJyRNasJj
=4cJ2
-END PGP SIGNATURE-

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Re: [talk-au] Can't see the facts for the FUD

On Mon, 7 Dec 2009, John Smith wrote:
 So to me, the devil is in the details and I think we need to try and
 get our own legal advice on how it will effect us in Australia because
 so far they have had 5 legal opinions, but only for the UK and the US.

and we are not in a position to agree to a change without am opinion by a 
lawyer on our lawyer, not a licence working group member's opinion on our law.

James has been pointing out that the Feds, who can afford good lawyers, find 
CC-by-Sa and CC-by as quite satisfactory in Australia.



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Re: [talk-au] Can't see the facts for the FUD

On Mon, 7 Dec 2009, Liz wrote:
 and we are not in a position to agree to a change without am opinion by a
 lawyer on our lawyer, not a licence working group member's opinion on our
 law.

 James has been pointing out that the Feds, who can afford good lawyers,
 find CC-by-Sa and CC-by as quite satisfactory in Australia.
Lets try again
we are not in a position to agree without an opinion by a lawyer, on our laws.


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Re: [talk-au] Can't see the facts for the FUD

2009/12/7 Liz ed...@billiau.net:
 and we are not in a position to agree to a change without am opinion by a
 lawyer on our lawyer, not a licence working group member's opinion on our law.

I agree, but I don't have any legal resources at my disposal, although
the OSGeo guys might.

 James has been pointing out that the Feds, who can afford good lawyers, find
 CC-by-Sa and CC-by as quite satisfactory in Australia.

As far as I can gather CC-BY-SA most likely won't work in the US, so I
can only guess that this whole issue is to fix the US problem and a
potential issue with streaming data that has only been shown in theory
and not in any court.

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Re: [talk-au] Can't see the facts for the FUD

2009-12-07 Thread James Livingston

On 07/12/2009, at 7:29 PM, John Smith wrote:
 2009/12/7 Liz ed...@billiau.net:
 James has been pointing out that the Feds, who can afford good lawyers, find
 CC-by-Sa and CC-by as quite satisfactory in Australia.
 
 As far as I can gather CC-BY-SA most likely won't work in the US, so I
 can only guess that this whole issue is to fix the US problem and a
 potential issue with streaming data that has only been shown in theory
 and not in any court.

The US isn't the only place without copyright on data. Indeed Australia doesn't 
have that, it's just we have copyright on databases of non-copyrightable stuff 
(which isn't at all the same as EU database rights). Most of what I was trying 
to point out was that 1) CC-BY-SA isn't broken everywhere, and 2) the High 
Court's IceTV decision (as I understand it) overturns a lot less of Desktop 
Marketing than most people think.

The HC didn't rule on whether factual data is copyrightable, in fact it 
explicitly said it wasn't ruling on that due to IceTV's lawyers inadvertently 
telling the court that the TV guide was copyrightable, so precluding the court 
from having to decide that. What it ruled on was the definition of 
substantial in reference to the copyright of a database.


I understand that CC-BY-SA doesn't work for databases of factual data in some 
jurisdictions (e.g. the US), it's just that I'm not too sure about the ODbL, 
and think the contributor terms will prevent us from using data that gets 
released under ODbL, or the stuff our government is now releasing under 
CC-BY(-SA).

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Re: [talk-au] Can't see the facts for the FUD

I came across this today*, if it is of any interest:

http://www.ands.org.au/guides/cc-and-data.html

Steve
* At work. Legitimately work related!
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Re: [talk-au] Blanchetown

2009-12-07 Thread Nick Hocking

I'll be driving from Canberra to Adelaide on December 22nd.

Normally I would turn left at Balranald but I coulf just go straight ahead
and maybe survey Paringa and stay overnight at Renmark.

On the way out  (Jan 3) I could do a little bit more... I was contemplating
Manangatang but someone seems to be covering that one, so I cound head out
back MIldura wayas well.

I'd like to visit Coota(bloody)mundra on the way back since I'm convinced
that there a a lot of small streets taht have been missed.

BTW, my new years resolution is to survey Gundagai. It's a total discrace,
It was traced and has never been visited and SURVEYED properly.
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Re: [talk-au] Can't see the facts for the FUD

On Mon, 7 Dec 2009, Steve Bennett wrote:
 I came across this today*, if it is of any interest:

 http://www.ands.org.au/guides/cc-and-data.html

 Steve
 * At work. Legitimately work related!

well it is of interest
the whole collection is protected under the Australian version (in Australia I 
presume) of CC
individual parts are not as they are 'facts'
so then we would return to the definition of 'substantial' when it comes to 
copyright over a part of the database reused somewhere else



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[talk-au] Fwd: [Aust-NZ] Anyone able to get/offer proper legal advice over ODBL?

-- Forwarded message --
From:  pcr...@pcreso.com
Date: 2009/12/8
Subject: Re: [Aust-NZ] Anyone able to get/offer proper legal advice over ODBL?
To: aust...@lists.osgeo.org, John Smith deltafoxtrot...@gmail.com

Hi John,

Not legal advice, but some comments/concerns based on what I know of
it that might help. I'm pretty sure my comments are correct :-) but
check with your lawyer,  you might still create your own licence 
get it certified as compatible with ODBL.

The ODBL is a much more complex licence, and contains various optional
components depending on local law. In your case you'd need advice
based on Australian law, but note some aspects will not necessarily be
applicable internationally.

It also allows for local modifications  copies to be cited, so is not
required to be used exactly as it stands, thus you can, to a limited
extent, modify any areas of concern provided the spirit is maintained.

It is a DATABASE licence and explicitly does NOT cover the CONTENT of
the database. CC is basically a content licence. (see para 2 of the
ODBL preamble for an overview). I'm not familiar with how OSM plans to
switch to ODBL, but I'd assume as a composite DB the content will be
covered by the original licences from the data suppliers,  the ODBL
will cover the database.

This said ( somewhat confusingly), the ODBL _does_ provide the pretty
unlimited right to reuse all or some of the content of the database
(clause 3.1).

ODBL also includes a specified attribution clause facilitating data
reuse, CC does not (CC only provides _for_ an attribution clause, it
does not actually provide it).

The ODBL licence expressly forbids mashups with data from incompatible
licences. I can see this being restrictive, and perhaps akin to the
viral nature of GPL instead of MIT or BSD. (clause 4.4d - share
alike)

The ODBL does not protect the original from commercial competition
from others making copies of all or some of the database. Likely to be
an issue for commercial data holders (eg: utilities, forestry, mining,
transport, etc).

Cheers,

 Brent Wood

--- On Mon, 12/7/09, John Smith deltafoxtrot...@gmail.com wrote:

 From: John Smith deltafoxtrot...@gmail.com
 Subject: [Aust-NZ] Anyone able to get/offer proper legal advice over ODBL?
 To: aust...@lists.osgeo.org
 Date: Monday, December 7, 2009, 10:34 PM
 As I mentioned earlier today OSM is
 planning to switch away from
 CC-BY-SA to ODBL:

 http://www.opendatacommons.org/licenses/odbl/

 However none of us in Australia involved with OSM have
 legal
 backgrounds we are unsure how this license will effect us,
 or if there
 is no major difference between the two for the most part.
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Re: [talk-au] Using Nearmap with JOSM

2009-12-07 Thread Peter Ross

On Tue, Dec 8, 2009 at 12:23 PM, Stephen Hope slh...@gmail.com wrote:
 I'm looking to use Nearmap with JOSM.  I was doing so quite happily
 with the old instructions (using the tested version from bigtincan as
 listed in the Nearmap page on the Wiki) but I made the mistake of
 upgrading JOSM, as it told me mine was out of date.  Now I can't seem
 to get any version of Slippymap to work with JOSM - this is displaying
 anything, not just the Nearmap imagery.  As soon as it tries to
 display any slippy map, I get bunches of errors, and the entire
 display stays blank.

 Does anyone know why there seems to be four versions of the slippymap
 in my plugins list, and which one (if any) I should use?  Could I have
 a problem with it caching an old version somehow, or could it be some
 other problem?

I would remove all the slippymap plugins from your .josm/plugins
directory and then redownload the standard slippymap plugin using
josm.

Then restart josm, goto to the slippymap preference tab and choose
nearmap Australia.

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Re: [talk-au] Using Nearmap with JOSM

On Tue, 8 Dec 2009, Steve Bennett wrote:
 On Tue, Dec 8, 2009 at 12:23 PM, Stephen Hope slh...@gmail.com wrote:
  I tried using Potlatch, but I've not used it before, and it's driving
  me mad.  I'm tempted to try Merkaartor, but I'm used to JOSM, I'd
  rather get it working if I could.  I tried the WMS method listed in
  the wiki page, But all it downloads are exception errors.

 Sorry I can't help your slippymap plugin problem (I did get Nearmap working
 with JOSM without too much difficulty), but I'm curious to hear what you
 don't like about Potlatch. I started with Potlatch, switched to JOSM, then
 went back to Potlatch. There weren't enough extra features in JOSM to
 justify using a separate app in offline mode, for my liking...

 Steve

JOSM and Potlatch are not a feature choice, but 
how_you_like_to_use_your_computer choice.

As a keyboard user who started in the 60s (it was a typewriter then) the 
keyboard shortcuts in JOSM are my favourite feature.



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Re: [talk-au] Using Nearmap with JOSM

2009-12-07 Thread Elizabeth Dodd

On Tue, 8 Dec 2009, you wrote:
 On Tue, Dec 8, 2009 at 12:57 PM, Liz ed...@billiau.net wrote:
  JOSM and Potlatch are not a feature choice, but
  how_you_like_to_use_your_computer choice.
 
  As a keyboard user who started in the 60s (it was a typewriter then) the
  keyboard shortcuts in JOSM are my favourite feature.

 Sure, I'm a big keyboard user too - what shortcuts am I missing from
 potlatch?

 Steve

don't know what is avail in potlatch overall
a is 'add' mode
s is 'select' mode
d is 'delete' mode
u is unselect
m is merge nodes ( a function which i have not found in potlatch)
j is join node to a way (which it is close to)
l lines up a way or a series of nodes in a line
o lines up a series of nodes in a circle

there are two other really good ones which are key combos and i use from the 
menu
orthogonalise shape
and 
make grid of ways



-- 
If you sow your wild oats, hope for a crop failure.


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Re: [talk-au] Using Nearmap with JOSM


 JOSM can be used offline,


So far all that's done for me is lose a chunk of edits when they conflicted
at upload time. :( (I don't really do offline anymore...)

 you can use it to import data.

Do you do that much? Where do you get it from?

Less responsive. Using an applet in a browser is slower (in my
experience).

I was surprised how slow JOSM was actually. It may be slightly faster, but
not much. It also seems to download nearmap imagery even when you hide the
layer, whereas you can speed up Potlatch that way.

I also find the panels of JOSM very useful (Relations,  Properties, Layers,
etc.).

Ah, true.

Steve
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Re: [talk-au] Using Nearmap with JOSM

On Tue, Dec 8, 2009 at 2:59 PM, Elizabeth Dodd ed...@billiau.net wrote:

 don't know what is avail in potlatch overall
 a is 'add' mode
 s is 'select' mode
 d is 'delete' mode
 u is unselect


Oh yeah, good old modal editing :) It's like using vim. I found this
horribly tedious. In potlatch, left-click does everything! (Honestly, I much
prefer Potlatch in this area. But it may be because I use dvorak keyboard,
and a/s/d are not near each other. I tried remapping the keys, didn't work
for some reason.)


 m is merge nodes ( a function which i have not found in potlatch)


You can work around it by merging a node and a way, then deleting the
superfluous node. I don't think you can merge two ways though.


 j is join node to a way (which it is close to)


Same.


 l lines up a way or a series of nodes in a line

o lines up a series of nodes in a circle


Another area where Potlatch is smarter - T does both functions, depending on
whether the way is closed or not. Would be nice if either Potlatch/JOSM had
a curvify way feature, interpolating a bezier curve through a series of
points.



 there are two other really good ones which are key combos and i use from
 the
 menu
 orthogonalise shape


Yeah, I wish potlatch had that.


 and
 make grid of ways


Nifty.

Steve
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Re: [talk-au] Using Nearmap with JOSM

On Tue, Dec 8, 2009 at 3:04 PM, Stephen Hope slh...@gmail.com wrote:

 doing things, that's all.  I started out when the only Potlatch
 editing mode was live editing - and I'm used to doing things, checking
 them, and then pushing save if I'm happy. This made me immediately
 look for something that worked that way - and by the time Potlatch
 added a work then save mode it was too late.


Hmm, I never use the offline editing. Too much risk of a browser crash or
some unknown failure causing my changes to be lost.

Steve
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Re: [Talk-br] Brasil 250 Cidades - O Início

2009-12-07 Thread Samuel Vale

Em Sex, 2009-12-04 às 20:28 +, Aun Johnsen escreveu:
 Viu que distancia Vitoria (ES) pela Rio de Janeiro (RJ) e 2001km, mas
 Rio de Janeiro (RJ) pela Vitoria (ES) so e 543km. Parecendo que o
 caminho Vitoria pela Rio passa por Belo Horizonte a Sao Paulo...
 
 2009/12/4 Vitor George vitor.geo...@gmail.com
 É verdade. As rotas em amarelo são aquelas que tem distância
 maior que 50% da distância em linha reta. Em cidades muito
 próximas talvez ocorram estas distorções...
 
 Podemos reduzir este fator, se percebemos que há muita coisa
 errada.

Olá pessoal,

Ótima ideia esse projeto Vitor!

Aun, BH-SP tem um problema semelhante. Achei que a rodovia BR381
estivesse completa, mas parece que há alguma interrupção que não liga as
duas captais. A rota exibida também não faz o caminho direto.

Abraço,


-- 
Samuel Vale srcv...@minaslivre.org


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Re: [Talk-br] Brasil 250 Cidades - O Início

Neste final de semana tentei acertar a Dutra sentido Rio-SP. Nào consegui
fazer o plugin de routing do JOSM funcionar para testar, mas creio que não
vai haver problemas.

Alguém está usando ou usou este plugin? Consigo instalar e fazer o layer de
rotas aparecer, mas simplesmente não consigo adicionar destinos.

2009/12/7 Samuel Vale srcv...@minaslivre.org

 Em Sex, 2009-12-04 às 20:28 +, Aun Johnsen escreveu:
  Viu que distancia Vitoria (ES) pela Rio de Janeiro (RJ) e 2001km, mas
  Rio de Janeiro (RJ) pela Vitoria (ES) so e 543km. Parecendo que o
  caminho Vitoria pela Rio passa por Belo Horizonte a Sao Paulo...
 
  2009/12/4 Vitor George vitor.geo...@gmail.com
  É verdade. As rotas em amarelo são aquelas que tem distância
  maior que 50% da distância em linha reta. Em cidades muito
  próximas talvez ocorram estas distorções...
 
  Podemos reduzir este fator, se percebemos que há muita coisa
  errada.

 Olá pessoal,

 Ótima ideia esse projeto Vitor!

 Aun, BH-SP tem um problema semelhante. Achei que a rodovia BR381
 estivesse completa, mas parece que há alguma interrupção que não liga as
 duas captais. A rota exibida também não faz o caminho direto.

 Abraço,


 --
 Samuel Vale srcv...@minaslivre.org

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Re: [Talk-br] Brasil 250 Cidades - O Início

2009-12-07 Thread Bráulio Bezerra da Silva

Eu consertei algumas coisas no Nordeste. Você poderia rodar o script de novo
e atualizar a página? :P. Semana de provas e eu ainda invento isso...

2009/12/7 Vitor George vitor.geo...@gmail.com

 Neste final de semana tentei acertar a Dutra sentido Rio-SP. Nào consegui
 fazer o plugin de routing do JOSM funcionar para testar, mas creio que não
 vai haver problemas.

 Alguém está usando ou usou este plugin? Consigo instalar e fazer o layer de
 rotas aparecer, mas simplesmente não consigo adicionar destinos.

 2009/12/7 Samuel Vale srcv...@minaslivre.org

 Em Sex, 2009-12-04 às 20:28 +, Aun Johnsen escreveu:
  Viu que distancia Vitoria (ES) pela Rio de Janeiro (RJ) e 2001km, mas
  Rio de Janeiro (RJ) pela Vitoria (ES) so e 543km. Parecendo que o
  caminho Vitoria pela Rio passa por Belo Horizonte a Sao Paulo...
 
  2009/12/4 Vitor George vitor.geo...@gmail.com
  É verdade. As rotas em amarelo são aquelas que tem distância
  maior que 50% da distância em linha reta. Em cidades muito
  próximas talvez ocorram estas distorções...
 
  Podemos reduzir este fator, se percebemos que há muita coisa
  errada.

 Olá pessoal,

 Ótima ideia esse projeto Vitor!

 Aun, BH-SP tem um problema semelhante. Achei que a rodovia BR381
 estivesse completa, mas parece que há alguma interrupção que não liga as
 duas captais. A rota exibida também não faz o caminho direto.

 Abraço,


 --
 Samuel Vale srcv...@minaslivre.org

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Re: [Talk-br] Brasil 250 Cidades - O Início

Posso rodar sim, mas é bom vc dar uma olhada se a sua rota correta já
apareceu no mapa da cloudmade, pois, senão, a rota vai continuar aparecendo
errada. Creio que demora alguns dias para aparecer.

O ideal seríamos adaptar o script para usar um brasil.osm offline, e assim
podemos rodar mais frequentemente e mais rápido.



2009/12/7 Bráulio Bezerra da Silva brauliobeze...@gmail.com

 Eu consertei algumas coisas no Nordeste. Você poderia rodar o script de
 novo e atualizar a página? :P. Semana de provas e eu ainda invento isso...

 2009/12/7 Vitor George vitor.geo...@gmail.com

 Neste final de semana tentei acertar a Dutra sentido Rio-SP. Nào consegui
 fazer o plugin de routing do JOSM funcionar para testar, mas creio que não
 vai haver problemas.

 Alguém está usando ou usou este plugin? Consigo instalar e fazer o layer
 de rotas aparecer, mas simplesmente não consigo adicionar destinos.

 2009/12/7 Samuel Vale srcv...@minaslivre.org

  Em Sex, 2009-12-04 às 20:28 +, Aun Johnsen escreveu:
  Viu que distancia Vitoria (ES) pela Rio de Janeiro (RJ) e 2001km, mas
  Rio de Janeiro (RJ) pela Vitoria (ES) so e 543km. Parecendo que o
  caminho Vitoria pela Rio passa por Belo Horizonte a Sao Paulo...
 
  2009/12/4 Vitor George vitor.geo...@gmail.com
  É verdade. As rotas em amarelo são aquelas que tem distância
  maior que 50% da distância em linha reta. Em cidades muito
  próximas talvez ocorram estas distorções...
 
  Podemos reduzir este fator, se percebemos que há muita coisa
  errada.

 Olá pessoal,

 Ótima ideia esse projeto Vitor!

 Aun, BH-SP tem um problema semelhante. Achei que a rodovia BR381
 estivesse completa, mas parece que há alguma interrupção que não liga as
 duas captais. A rota exibida também não faz o caminho direto.

 Abraço,


 --
 Samuel Vale srcv...@minaslivre.org

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Re: [Talk-br] Brasil 250 Cidades - O Início

Fala Flavio,

Acabei postando no wiki, mas vou replicar uma dúvida aqui.

Não será melhor focarmos nas capitais na primeira fase e depois adicionar
estas cidades na segunda?

Parece-me que assim teríamos uma maior objetividade, atacando o problema de
conectividade nas partes mais prioritárias, que são as conexões entre
capitais.

Existe a possibilidade de fazer um fork, rodando o script só para o Sul,
caso você deseje focar somente nestas cidades. E aí depois integramos tudo
quando avançarmos com as capitais.

Abs,
Vitor

2009/12/7 Flavio Bello Fialho be...@cnpuv.embrapa.br

 Adicionei um conjunto que eu considero adequado de cidades do sul (RS,
 SC e PR) à lista. Os critérios que usei foram: As cidades devem estar
 distribuídas pelo mapa do estado (não concentradas numa única região),
 as maiores cidades devem estar representadas e deve haver alguma cidade
 razoavelmente próxima às principais rotas de entrada no estado. Creio
 que, se as cidades da lista rotearem bem, a região Sul estará com um
 roteamento adequado para a lista das 250. Faltam as demais regiões.

 Vitor George escreveu:
  Posso rodar sim, mas é bom vc dar uma olhada se a sua rota correta já
  apareceu no mapa da cloudmade, pois, senão, a rota vai continuar
  aparecendo errada. Creio que demora alguns dias para aparecer.
 
  O ideal seríamos adaptar o script para usar um brasil.osm offline, e
  assim podemos rodar mais frequentemente e mais rápido.
 
 
 
  2009/12/7 Bráulio Bezerra da Silva brauliobeze...@gmail.com
  mailto:brauliobeze...@gmail.com
 
  Eu consertei algumas coisas no Nordeste. Você poderia rodar o script
  de novo e atualizar a página? :P. Semana de provas e eu ainda
  invento isso...
 
  2009/12/7 Vitor George vitor.geo...@gmail.com
  mailto:vitor.geo...@gmail.com
 
  Neste final de semana tentei acertar a Dutra sentido Rio-SP. Nào
  consegui fazer o plugin de routing do JOSM funcionar para
  testar, mas creio que não vai haver problemas.
 
  Alguém está usando ou usou este plugin? Consigo instalar e fazer
  o layer de rotas aparecer, mas simplesmente não consigo
  adicionar destinos.
 
  2009/12/7 Samuel Vale srcv...@minaslivre.org
  mailto:srcv...@minaslivre.org
 
  Em Sex, 2009-12-04 às 20:28 +, Aun Johnsen escreveu:
Viu que distancia Vitoria (ES) pela Rio de Janeiro (RJ) e
  2001km, mas
Rio de Janeiro (RJ) pela Vitoria (ES) so e 543km.
  Parecendo que o
caminho Vitoria pela Rio passa por Belo Horizonte a Sao
  Paulo...
   
2009/12/4 Vitor George vitor.geo...@gmail.com
  mailto:vitor.geo...@gmail.com
É verdade. As rotas em amarelo são aquelas que
  tem distância
maior que 50% da distância em linha reta. Em
  cidades muito
próximas talvez ocorram estas distorções...
   
Podemos reduzir este fator, se percebemos que há
  muita coisa
errada.
 
  Olá pessoal,
 
  Ótima ideia esse projeto Vitor!
 
  Aun, BH-SP tem um problema semelhante. Achei que a rodovia
 BR381
  estivesse completa, mas parece que há alguma interrupção que
  não liga as
  duas captais. A rota exibida também não faz o caminho direto.
 
  Abraço,
 
 
  --
  Samuel Vale srcv...@minaslivre.org
  mailto:srcv...@minaslivre.org
 
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  http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-br
 
 
 
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 --
 Flávio Bello Fialho
 Pesquisador, Embrapa Uva e Vinho
 be...@cnpuv.embrapa.br

 --
 Aviso de confidencialidade: Esta mensagem da Empresa Brasileira de
 Pesquisa Agropecuária (Embrapa), empresa pública federal regida pelo
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 confidenciais, protegidas por sigilo profissional. Sua utilização
 desautorizada é ilegal e sujeita o

Re: [Talk-br] Brasil 250 Cidades - O Início

2009-12-07 Thread Flavio Bello Fialho

Eu acho que dá para fazer tudo junto. Para chegar em boa parte do Rio 
Grande do Sul, não precisa passar por Porto Alegre. O inconveniente de 
termos muitas cidades é que a tabela fica grande, mas acho que dá para 
quebrar ela em partes. Já corrigi a rota entre Porto Alegre e 
Florianópolis, mas o cloudmade demora muito para atualizar. Gostaria de 
estar fazendo outra coisa enquanto espero :)
O script demora muito para rodar?

Vitor George escreveu:
 Fala Flavio,
 
 Acabei postando no wiki, mas vou replicar uma dúvida aqui.
 
 Não será melhor focarmos nas capitais na primeira fase e depois 
 adicionar estas cidades na segunda?
 
 Parece-me que assim teríamos uma maior objetividade, atacando o problema 
 de conectividade nas partes mais prioritárias, que são as conexões entre 
 capitais.
 
 Existe a possibilidade de fazer um fork, rodando o script só para o 
 Sul, caso você deseje focar somente nestas cidades. E aí depois 
 integramos tudo quando avançarmos com as capitais.
 
 Abs,
 Vitor
 
 2009/12/7 Flavio Bello Fialho be...@cnpuv.embrapa.br 
 mailto:be...@cnpuv.embrapa.br
 
 Adicionei um conjunto que eu considero adequado de cidades do sul (RS,
 SC e PR) à lista. Os critérios que usei foram: As cidades devem estar
 distribuídas pelo mapa do estado (não concentradas numa única região),
 as maiores cidades devem estar representadas e deve haver alguma cidade
 razoavelmente próxima às principais rotas de entrada no estado. Creio
 que, se as cidades da lista rotearem bem, a região Sul estará com um
 roteamento adequado para a lista das 250. Faltam as demais regiões.
 
 Vitor George escreveu:
   Posso rodar sim, mas é bom vc dar uma olhada se a sua rota correta já
   apareceu no mapa da cloudmade, pois, senão, a rota vai continuar
   aparecendo errada. Creio que demora alguns dias para aparecer.
  
   O ideal seríamos adaptar o script para usar um brasil.osm offline, e
   assim podemos rodar mais frequentemente e mais rápido.
  
  
  
   2009/12/7 Bráulio Bezerra da Silva brauliobeze...@gmail.com
 mailto:brauliobeze...@gmail.com
   mailto:brauliobeze...@gmail.com mailto:brauliobeze...@gmail.com
  
   Eu consertei algumas coisas no Nordeste. Você poderia rodar o
 script
   de novo e atualizar a página? :P. Semana de provas e eu ainda
   invento isso...
  
   2009/12/7 Vitor George vitor.geo...@gmail.com
 mailto:vitor.geo...@gmail.com
   mailto:vitor.geo...@gmail.com mailto:vitor.geo...@gmail.com
  
   Neste final de semana tentei acertar a Dutra sentido
 Rio-SP. Nào
   consegui fazer o plugin de routing do JOSM funcionar para
   testar, mas creio que não vai haver problemas.
  
   Alguém está usando ou usou este plugin? Consigo instalar
 e fazer
   o layer de rotas aparecer, mas simplesmente não consigo
   adicionar destinos.
  
   2009/12/7 Samuel Vale srcv...@minaslivre.org
 mailto:srcv...@minaslivre.org
   mailto:srcv...@minaslivre.org
 mailto:srcv...@minaslivre.org
  
   Em Sex, 2009-12-04 às 20:28 +, Aun Johnsen escreveu:
 Viu que distancia Vitoria (ES) pela Rio de Janeiro
 (RJ) e
   2001km, mas
 Rio de Janeiro (RJ) pela Vitoria (ES) so e 543km.
   Parecendo que o
 caminho Vitoria pela Rio passa por Belo Horizonte
 a Sao
   Paulo...

 2009/12/4 Vitor George vitor.geo...@gmail.com
 mailto:vitor.geo...@gmail.com
   mailto:vitor.geo...@gmail.com
 mailto:vitor.geo...@gmail.com
 É verdade. As rotas em amarelo são aquelas que
   tem distância
 maior que 50% da distância em linha reta. Em
   cidades muito
 próximas talvez ocorram estas distorções...

 Podemos reduzir este fator, se percebemos
 que há
   muita coisa
 errada.
  
   Olá pessoal,
  
   Ótima ideia esse projeto Vitor!
  
   Aun, BH-SP tem um problema semelhante. Achei que a
 rodovia BR381
   estivesse completa, mas parece que há alguma
 interrupção que
   não liga as
   duas captais. A rota exibida também não faz o caminho
 direto.
  
   Abraço,
  
  
   --
   Samuel Vale srcv...@minaslivre.org
 mailto:srcv...@minaslivre.org
   mailto:srcv...@minaslivre.org
 mailto:srcv...@minaslivre.org
  
   ___
   Talk-br

Re: [Talk-br] Brasil 250 Cidades - O Início

2009-12-07 Thread Claudomiro Nascimento Junior

Não tem muito o que fazer mesmo a não ser esperar os updates semanais
do banco de dados deles.

Eu dei uma corrigida na Dutra (entre Taubaté e Rio de Janeiro) neste sábado.

[]s

2009/12/7 Flavio Bello Fialho be...@cnpuv.embrapa.br:
Eu acho que dá para fazer tudo junto. Para chegar em boa parte do Rio
Grande do Sul, não precisa passar por Porto Alegre. O inconveniente de
termos muitas cidades é que a tabela fica grande, mas acho que dá para
quebrar ela em partes. Já corrigi a rota entre Porto Alegre e
Florianópolis, mas o cloudmade demora muito para atualizar. Gostaria de
estar fazendo outra coisa enquanto espero :)
O script demora muito para rodar?

Vitor George escreveu:
Fala Flavio,

Acabei postando no wiki, mas vou replicar uma dúvida aqui.

Não será melhor focarmos nas capitais na primeira fase e depois
adicionar estas cidades na segunda?

Parece-me que assim teríamos uma maior objetividade, atacando o problema
de conectividade nas partes mais prioritárias, que são as conexões entre
capitais.

Existe a possibilidade de fazer um fork, rodando o script só para o
Sul, caso você deseje focar somente nestas cidades. E aí depois
integramos tudo quando avançarmos com as capitais.

Abs,
Vitor

2009/12/7 Flavio Bello Fialho be...@cnpuv.embrapa.br
mailto:be...@cnpuv.embrapa.br

Adicionei um conjunto que eu considero adequado de cidades do sul (RS,
SC e PR) à lista. Os critérios que usei foram: As cidades devem estar
distribuídas pelo mapa do estado (não concentradas numa única região),
as maiores cidades devem estar representadas e deve haver alguma cidade
razoavelmente próxima às principais rotas de entrada no estado. Creio
que, se as cidades da lista rotearem bem, a região Sul estará com um
roteamento adequado para a lista das 250. Faltam as demais regiões.

Vitor George escreveu:
Posso rodar sim, mas é bom vc dar uma olhada se a sua rota correta já
apareceu no mapa da cloudmade, pois, senão, a rota vai continuar
aparecendo errada. Creio que demora alguns dias para aparecer.
O ideal seríamos adaptar o script para usar um brasil.osm offline, e
assim podemos rodar mais frequentemente e mais rápido.
2009/12/7 Bráulio Bezerra da Silva brauliobeze...@gmail.com
mailto:brauliobeze...@gmail.com
mailto:brauliobeze...@gmail.com mailto:brauliobeze...@gmail.com
Eu consertei algumas coisas no Nordeste. Você poderia rodar o
script
de novo e atualizar a página? :P. Semana de provas e eu ainda
invento isso...
2009/12/7 Vitor George vitor.geo...@gmail.com
mailto:vitor.geo...@gmail.com
mailto:vitor.geo...@gmail.com mailto:vitor.geo...@gmail.com
Neste final de semana tentei acertar a Dutra sentido
Rio-SP. Nào
consegui fazer o plugin de routing do JOSM funcionar para
testar, mas creio que não vai haver problemas.
Alguém está usando ou usou este plugin? Consigo instalar
e fazer
o layer de rotas aparecer, mas simplesmente não consigo
adicionar destinos.
2009/12/7 Samuel Vale srcv...@minaslivre.org
mailto:srcv...@minaslivre.org
mailto:srcv...@minaslivre.org
mailto:srcv...@minaslivre.org
Em Sex, 2009-12-04 às 20:28 +, Aun Johnsen escreveu:
Viu que distancia Vitoria (ES) pela Rio de Janeiro
(RJ) e
2001km, mas
Rio de Janeiro (RJ) pela Vitoria (ES) so e 543km.
Parecendo que o
caminho Vitoria pela Rio passa por Belo Horizonte
a Sao
Paulo...
2009/12/4 Vitor George vitor.geo...@gmail.com
mailto:vitor.geo...@gmail.com
mailto:vitor.geo...@gmail.com
mailto:vitor.geo...@gmail.com
É verdade. As rotas em amarelo são aquelas que
tem distância
maior que 50% da distância em linha reta. Em
cidades muito
próximas talvez ocorram estas distorções...
Podemos reduzir este fator, se percebemos
que há
muita coisa
errada.
Olá pessoal,
Ótima ideia esse projeto Vitor!
Aun, BH-SP tem um problema semelhante. Achei que a
rodovia BR381
estivesse completa, mas parece que há alguma
interrupção que
não liga as
duas captais. A rota exibida também não faz o caminho
direto.
Abraço,
--
Samuel Vale

Re: [Talk-br] Brasil 250 Cidades - O Início

2009-12-07 Thread Aun Johnsen

Java e Flash bloquiado, e nao poder instalar outro software como merkaartor,
eu so poder ver sistemas utalizando AJAX, e as vezes por um hora ou dois
entra no Potlatch (tem so um computador por 13 persoes que tem flash
instalado)

2009/12/7 Claudomiro Nascimento Junior claudom...@claudomiro.com

 Pra mim tá funcionando normal, Aun. Tanto caminho de Ida, como de
 Volta.


 2009/12/7 Aun Johnsen li...@gimnechiske.org:
   Algusn que poder ver no BR-101 Rio-Vitoria para verificar onde tem o
  problemo? Eu empreso no trabalho ate inicio de ano que vem, e tem um
  connecao do internet limitada (e pouco tempo tambem). Achou que o
 problemo
  poder fica no um dos pistas duplicados.
 
  2009/12/7 Samuel Vale srcv...@minaslivre.org
 
  Em Sex, 2009-12-04 às 20:28 +, Aun Johnsen escreveu:
   Viu que distancia Vitoria (ES) pela Rio de Janeiro (RJ) e 2001km, mas
   Rio de Janeiro (RJ) pela Vitoria (ES) so e 543km. Parecendo que o
   caminho Vitoria pela Rio passa por Belo Horizonte a Sao Paulo...
  
   2009/12/4 Vitor George vitor.geo...@gmail.com
   É verdade. As rotas em amarelo são aquelas que tem distância
   maior que 50% da distância em linha reta. Em cidades muito
   próximas talvez ocorram estas distorções...
  
   Podemos reduzir este fator, se percebemos que há muita coisa
   errada.
 
  Olá pessoal,
 
  Ótima ideia esse projeto Vitor!
 
  Aun, BH-SP tem um problema semelhante. Achei que a rodovia BR381
  estivesse completa, mas parece que há alguma interrupção que não liga as
  duas captais. A rota exibida também não faz o caminho direto.
 
  Abraço,
 
 
  --
  Samuel Vale srcv...@minaslivre.org
 
  ___
  Talk-br mailing list
  Talk-br@openstreetmap.org
  http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-br
 
 
 
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Re: [Talk-br] Brasil 250 Cidades - O Início