date:20090617

2009/6/17 wer-ist-roger juwelier-onl...@web.de:
 Hej Jens,

 nice mockup. But I like more the idea of having thumbnails side by side then
 this tab-like style.

Yes, it is indeed quite nice, but IMHO not suitable for a large
variety of different Maps (lets say 20-30).

cheers,
Martin

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[OSM-talk] Fixing duplicate nodes/ways

2009-06-17 Per discussione Alice Kaerast

Hi,

I used php_bulk_upload to make some changes a while back, and it has
been recently pointed out that it really screwed things up - creating
many duplicate nodes across a very wide area.  Rather than just
uploading the large number of changes I'd made, it also uploaded new
copies of existing nodes and ways.  I've been trying to fix things with
JOSM's validator, but it's over such a huge area that this is proving
impossible.

Is there any way that changesets #1420511 and #1420511 can be
reverted?  I would imagine not given that work has continued since
then.  Alternatively, how can we remove all the duplicate nodes and
ways over this large area?

I feel absolutely terrible for not noticing this sooner, and am
terribly sorry for the problems caused.

-- 
Alice

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Re: [OSM-talk] Move the Map

2009-06-17 Per discussione Joe Richards

One of the main annoyances that people tell me that they have with OSM
is that whenever they visit the site, the map shows them just the UK.I checked 
it (from other random computers, not my laptop) when I was in Thailand and 
Australia and it always showed the UK.  Is the UK the default if IP resolution 
fails?



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Re: [OSM-talk] Move the Map

2009-06-17 Per discussione Shaun McDonald



On 17 Jun 2009, at 18:17, Joe Richards wrote:

One of the main annoyances that people tell me that they have with  
OSM

is that whenever they visit the site, the map shows them just the UK.
I checked it (from other random computers, not my laptop) when I was  
in Thailand and Australia and it always showed the UK.  Is the UK  
the default if IP resolution fails?




It will default to the following if nothing else works (from url,  
cookie, user home location, session cookie, and GeoIP)

http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=51.1lon=-0.1zoom=5

The code of the algorithm is at
http://trac.openstreetmap.org/browser/sites/rails_port/app/views/site/index.html.erb#L55

Shaun

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Re: [OSM-talk] Move the Map

2009-06-17 Per discussione Eric Wolf

It's just the Brits trying to re-establish their imperial dominance over the
world.

On Wed, Jun 17, 2009 at 12:07 PM, Shaun McDonald
sh...@shaunmcdonald.me.ukwrote:


 On 17 Jun 2009, at 18:17, Joe Richards wrote:

 One of the main annoyances that people tell me that they have with OSM
 is that whenever they visit the site, the map shows them just the UK.

 I checked it (from other random computers, not my laptop) when I was in
 Thailand and Australia and it always showed the UK.  Is the UK the default
 if IP resolution fails?


 It will default to the following if nothing else works (from url, cookie,
 user home location, session cookie, and GeoIP)
 http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=51.1lon=-0.1zoom=5

 The code of the algorithm is at

 http://trac.openstreetmap.org/browser/sites/rails_port/app/views/site/index.html.erb#L55

 Shaun


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[OSM-talk] import refuse !

2009-06-17 Per discussione Stéphane Brunner

Hello !

I just have an import failure. this is just because my holux m-241
with mtkbable returns me points like this :
trkpt lat=nan lon=nan
  elenan/ele
  time1969-08-02T00:22:53Z/time
/trkpt
Invalid coordinate is ignored than invalid points like this should
also be ignore ?
Than where can I notify the bug ?

CU
Stéphane



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Re: [OSM-talk] Move the Map

2009-06-17 Per discussione Peter Childs

2009/6/17 Eric Wolf ebw...@gmail.com:
 It's just the Brits trying to re-establish their imperial dominance over the
 world.

 On Wed, Jun 17, 2009 at 12:07 PM, Shaun McDonald sh...@shaunmcdonald.me.uk
 wrote:

 On 17 Jun 2009, at 18:17, Joe Richards wrote:

 One of the main annoyances that people tell me that they have with OSM
 is that whenever they visit the site, the map shows them just the UK.

 I checked it (from other random computers, not my laptop) when I was in
 Thailand and Australia and it always showed the UK.  Is the UK the default
 if IP resolution fails?


 It will default to the following if nothing else works (from url, cookie,
 user home location, session cookie, and GeoIP)
 http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=51.1lon=-0.1zoom=5
 The code of the algorithm is at

 http://trac.openstreetmap.org/browser/sites/rails_port/app/views/site/index.html.erb#L55
 Shaun


Maybe http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=0lon=-0zoom=2 would be more
diplomatic, but then we should be using a map that did not make the
Uk, India, Brazil and New Zealand all the same size. We should at
least have the option of which projection is used, maybe some kind of
menu. see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Map_projection

Peter

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Re: [OSM-talk] Move the Map

2009-06-17 Per discussione Tom Chance

On Wednesday 17 Jun 2009 19:19:20 Eric Wolf wrote:
 It's just the Brits trying to re-establish their imperial dominance over
 the world.

I'll submit a suggestion on trac for the appropriate changes to the 
stylesheets: http://tinyurl.com/ns8852

Regards,
Tom

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Re: [OSM-talk] Lake Cowichan Now loaded (more of sample 092c area)

2009-06-17 Per discussione Sam Vekemans

Answered below,

Twitter: @Acrosscanada
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/sam.vekemans


On Wed, Jun 17, 2009 at 4:57 AM, Marc Schütz schue...@gmx.net wrote:

  I think the definitions really don't belong in the the data -- perhaps
  if you want to see them, your browser should look them up in some
  table rather than load from the data.

 +1

 It should be sufficient to keep the canvec:UUID, source and attribution
 tags, and maybe a few of the other canvec:* (CMAS?). I don't see why we
 would need most of the others. If someone is really interested in them, they
 can look them up in Canvec using the UUID.


Actually, its not that easy to look up a source with the uuid from CanVec
data.
They would need to open up the shp files and sift through the data.
Unfortunately the canvec data isn't organized to that extreem on their
website.  The purpose of keeping the uuid is that it might be used during
the conversion process to compare old/new canvec data.  Other than that, the
source tag is really the only one that is technically needed.


Arguments to keep all original tags as available.

When importing large amounts of data, not only are we importing the data,
but also opening the door to all of the users of that data, who now have a
2nd choice of where to extract the data (cloudmade provides shp files of OSM
data)
So now, users of geogratis data, can turn to OSM, where they can now see the
value of working WITH the data. For example, a federal parks manager, who
would turn to geogratis to get a basemap, can now use OSM, as the map is
more accurate.
However, because government is a stickler for 'official source' we can
provide the source tags, that anyone can go to geogratis and varify the
detail.

This is a fair trade off, as not only am i copying the data, i am providing
an accurate 'carbon' copy of the origional source.

In order to be 'sync' with the import data, it all needs to be there. (All
or none?)

I think this is a fare tradeoff, as it lets us have are cake, eat it, AND
also share it with more types of data users. (where a certain other map,
doesnt do this)  ... (ie if BC Parks decides do donate their 'official'
property boundaries) they too could include their back-end cross referencing
system, and ALSO include osm standard tags)

Arguments against:
-This is OpenSTREETMap where we only provide ways with names, and make
relations and add things that end users want.

But, an end-user can also be a city planner who is thinking of sharing all
there origional survay data, and property boundary information. Provided
they can also include lot numbers, and official property easment.

If there is an unlimited number of tags alloud, why not keep them?

If i remove SOME and not ALL, where do we draw this line in the sand?

I think we need to make it clear on a global level, exactly WHAT should be
included or omited with an import. (any builk import for that matter)

If you dont like it because it looks like 'clutter', but infact its useful.
.. i dont know if thats a strong argument.

Perhaps I think we need to find a former Geogratis user, who will now be
using OSM. And find out just how useful there tags are.  (as im not one, my
voice is rather quite)

Right now the evedence to keep all the tags is not that great. ...

The process of removing these tags is not small.  So a definate answer
should be found before i continue with more importing :)




 created_by should be removed, too. This is better moved into the changeset.
 One could even argue that source belongs there, too.


Well 'cause its not only me uploading, it can be anyone who wants to use the
canvec2osm script, you dont need to be logged in with geobase:username.  ...
because your only importing a few features that you want.  ... and there's
no way to control what gets typed into the changeset.   Would be nice if
everyone followed what im doing. ... but not possable.
The created_by tag of 'canvec2osm' so people know it was my (crappy script)
that made the mess :), so they can turn to me, and go to the canvec2osm wiki
page to try to figure out how to fix problems.




 Regards, Marc

 --
 GMX FreeDSL Komplettanschluss mit DSL 6.000 Flatrate und Telefonanschluss
 für nur 17,95 Euro/mtl.!* http://portal.gmx.net/de/go/dsl02


Cheers,
Sam Vekemans
Across Canada Trails
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Re: [OSM-talk] full history of a way?

2009-06-17 Per discussione SteveC


On 14 Jun 2009, at 01:49, Frederik Ramm wrote:

 Hi,

 There are no full history dumps currently - having such dump would
 enable this type of query quite easily.

 I am sure we will have them at some point in time.

 Well, there could be slight problem with pre-0.6 data (no order in
 relations) and pre-0.5 (extra segment elements in addition to nodes
 and ways)

 Way history was completely dropped on the 0.4 to 0.5 changeover so you
 will not be able to access any way data before that.

 so this maybe need some conversions. I am not sure what was
 before 0.4 (could be some problems too...)

 The 0.3 to 0.4 changeover did not, to my knowledge, drop any data. And
 before 0.3 OSM was so small that whatever was there at the time can
 safely be ignored ;-)

I look forward to API 0.9 where we can say And before 0.6 OSM was so  
small that whatever was there at the time can  safely be ignored ;-)

Best

Steve


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Re: [OSM-talk] Lake Cowichan Now loaded (more of sample 092c area)

2009-06-17 Per discussione andrzej zaborowski

2009/6/17 Sam Vekemans acrosscanadatra...@gmail.com:
 Answered below,

 Twitter: @Acrosscanada
 Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/sam.vekemans


 On Wed, Jun 17, 2009 at 4:57 AM, Marc Schütz schue...@gmx.net wrote:

  I think the definitions really don't belong in the the data -- perhaps
  if you want to see them, your browser should look them up in some
  table rather than load from the data.

 +1

 It should be sufficient to keep the canvec:UUID, source and attribution
 tags, and maybe a few of the other canvec:* (CMAS?). I don't see why we
 would need most of the others. If someone is really interested in them, they
 can look them up in Canvec using the UUID.

 Actually, its not that easy to look up a source with the uuid from CanVec
 data.
 They would need to open up the shp files and sift through the data.
 Unfortunately the canvec data isn't organized to that extreem on their
 website.

You don't need to look it up in the shp files, you can have it in a
huge xml file or somewhere else because it's a trivial 1:1 conversion.
 The point is that the definition of what is a school (not the
particular school to which the tag is attached) belongs in an
encyclopaedia, not in a database of geographic data.  The school
object on the map is already fully defined by amenity=school, now,
if you want to interpret this you need to look it up in the
Map_Features page or an encyclopaedia or in 99% cases from your prior
knowledge.

  The purpose of keeping the uuid is that it might be used during
 the conversion process to compare old/new canvec data.  Other than that, the
 source tag is really the only one that is technically needed.


 Arguments to keep all original tags as available.

 When importing large amounts of data, not only are we importing the data,
 but also opening the door to all of the users of that data, who now have a
 2nd choice of where to extract the data (cloudmade provides shp files of OSM
 data)
 So now, users of geogratis data, can turn to OSM, where they can now see the
 value of working WITH the data. For example, a federal parks manager, who
 would turn to geogratis to get a basemap, can now use OSM, as the map is
 more accurate.
 However, because government is a stickler for 'official source' we can
 provide the source tags, that anyone can go to geogratis and varify the
 detail.

 This is a fair trade off, as not only am i copying the data, i am providing
 an accurate 'carbon' copy of the origional source.

 In order to be 'sync' with the import data, it all needs to be there. (All
 or none?)

 I think this is a fare tradeoff, as it lets us have are cake, eat it, AND
 also share it with more types of data users. (where a certain other map,
 doesnt do this)  ... (ie if BC Parks decides do donate their 'official'
 property boundaries) they too could include their back-end cross referencing
 system, and ALSO include osm standard tags)

 Arguments against:
 -This is OpenSTREETMap where we only provide ways with names, and make
 relations and add things that end users want.

 But, an end-user can also be a city planner who is thinking of sharing all
 there origional survay data, and property boundary information. Provided
 they can also include lot numbers, and official property easment.

 If there is an unlimited number of tags alloud, why not keep them?

 If i remove SOME and not ALL, where do we draw this line in the sand?

 I think we need to make it clear on a global level, exactly WHAT should be
 included or omited with an import. (any builk import for that matter)

It's quite clear, I think:
 - include things that carry some new information (e.g. amenity=school)
 - omit things that are redundant, because they can be inferred from
other tags on the object or from an external, non-geographic database
(the definition of a building, school, road)

There's a 1:1 correspondence between the value of amenity= and the
value of canvec:value_definition= so one of them should be removed.
There's a 1:1 correspondence between the value of canvec:entity= and
the value of canvec:entity_definition= so one of them should be
removed.

For example, let's say you're making a database of large prime
numbers.  For each entry you could store the prime number N, some kind
of proof of why it's a prime or a method of deriving the number, the
name of the discoverer, but not:
 - the definition of a prime number (redundant),
 - N+1 (redundant),
 - N^2 (redundant),


 If you dont like it because it looks like 'clutter', but infact its useful.
 .. i dont know if thats a strong argument.

 Perhaps I think we need to find a former Geogratis user, who will now be
 using OSM. And find out just how useful there tags are.  (as im not one, my
 voice is rather quite)

 Right now the evedence to keep all the tags is not that great. ...

 The process of removing these tags is not small.  So a definate answer
 should be found before i continue with more importing :)




 created_by should be removed, too. This is better moved

[OSM-talk] SOTM 08 videos

2009-06-17 Per discussione SteveC

Hi

Linked off of stateofthemap.org are the SOTM '08 videos:

http://blog.signal2noise.ie/~eason/sotm08/

But they're incomplete and super, super, super slow to load.

So does anyone know if the rest will be put up?

And, can anyone mirror them somewhere useful?

Best

Steve


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Re: [OSM-talk] SOTM 08 videos

2009-06-17 Per discussione Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason

On Wed, Jun 17, 2009 at 8:46 PM, SteveCst...@asklater.com wrote:
 Hi

 Linked off of stateofthemap.org are the SOTM '08 videos:

        http://blog.signal2noise.ie/~eason/sotm08/

 But they're incomplete and super, super, super slow to load.

 So does anyone know if the rest will be put up?

 And, can anyone mirror them somewhere useful?

If permission can be sought from the appropriate people to license
them freely then they could be hosted on Wikimedia Commons.

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Re: [OSM-talk] Lake Cowichan Now loaded (more of sample 092c area)

2009-06-17 Per discussione andrzej zaborowski

2009/6/18 Alan Millar a...@bolis.com:
 There's a 1:1 correspondence between the value of amenity= and the
 value of canvec:value_definition= so one of them should be removed.
 There's a 1:1 correspondence between the value of canvec:entity= and
 the value of canvec:entity_definition= so one of them should be
 removed.

 I have not looked at the CanVec data, but if there is a 1:1 correspondence

I suggest you do.

 there, you're lucky.

Duh.. one is derived from the other.  In fact one is a definition of
the meaning of the other one.

 I have looked at the USGS Geonames and TIGER data,
 and there is NOT a 1:1 map with accepted OSM tags.  Sure, you could (for
 example) force something to be amenity=hotel, even if the accepted tag is
 tourism=hotel, but that's a cheap hack, not consistent data.

Whether your converter's rule says
canvec:type=X - amenity=school
canvec:type=Y- tourism=hotel, rating=3 stars
or they're both amenities doesn't really make a difference, does it.
It's still a clear correspondence between tagsets.

If you had read the message to which you were responding though you
would notice I'm not suggesting the canvec tag be removed, from which
the osm tag was derived, just the second canvec tag that contains a
textual, english language definition of the first tag.  On *every*
object that uses the tag, the exact same two-three english sentences
(see the prime numbers example)

Cheers

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Re: [OSM-talk] Lake Cowichan Now loaded (more of sample 092c area)

2009-06-17 Per discussione Lester Caine

andrzej zaborowski wrote:
 If you had read the message to which you were responding though you
 would notice I'm not suggesting the canvec tag be removed, from which
 the osm tag was derived, just the second canvec tag that contains a
 textual, english language definition of the first tag.  On *every*
 object that uses the tag, the exact same two-three english sentences
 (see the prime numbers example)

I think one of the problems here is that there is no real mechanism IN 
OSM for providing that data as part of the OSM downloads? There is a lot 
of duplication, but if I see a 'canvec' or any other external source 
tag, then should I have to start searching for external references to 
supply more information? But if there was a means whereby 'exact same 
two-three english sentences' could be packaged to provide a lookup table 
that any viewer could then access things would be a lot easier? While 
I'm ranting ... is there a cross reference OF sources that can be used 
for attribution details?

But then I still don't accept that things like 'tourism=hotel, rating=3 
stars' has to be duplicated everywhere anyway when the API can quite 
easily convert a simple alphnumeric tag to what ever language the target 
viewer requires? You can still retain the flexibility of people creating 
their own undocumented main tags, but one gets a unified view of all the 
core material without the misunderstanding caused by forcing english on 
everybody?

I've suggested in the past that there should be a unified 'place' table 
with a well structured hierarchy so that everybody uses the same id 
number for a place name, and this is the place that mappings such as 
gnis:county_id=052 - gnis:county_name=Multnomah would be added and 
referenced from? Looking up gnis, canvec or tiger in the place table 
would show which areas the relevent source covers?

-- 
Lester Caine - G8HFL
-
Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact
L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk
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Re: [talk-au] How to map out streets the most efficently

2009-06-17 Per discussione James Livingston

On 16/06/2009, at 1:08 AM, Delta Foxtrot wrote:
 Now does anyone have suggestions on how to basically drive the  
 entire town the most efficiently with the minimal amount of overlap,  
 or how does one plan such a feat.

There's a nice mathematical algorithm for figuring out that. All you  
need for it is a complete map of the area ;)

--
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Re: [talk-au] How to map out streets the most efficently

2009-06-17 Per discussione James Livingston



On 16/06/2009, at 1:52 PM, Liz wrote:


On Tue, 16 Jun 2009, Delta Foxtrot wrote:
 Most likely I'll be returning via a different direction, I don't
 particularlly like going out west, there is whole lots of nothing  
inbetween

 a few somethings.

OSM makes you look for somethings out there between the nothings.



Sometimes it does that a bit too much. Since I started mapping, every  
time I drive somewhere that's a reasonable distance away I keep  
thinking to myself Mark, bridge over XYZ creek., Mark, four-way  
junction with ABC road.


I should probably buy an audio recorder, and think aloud instead.

--
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Re: [talk-au] Newbie - Landuse and Administrative Boundary

2009-06-17 Per discussione Liz

On Wed, 17 Jun 2009, Rick Peterson wrote:
 Hi Folks,

 I’m a newcomer to the OSM project with a couple of questions.


 BACKGROUND:


Welcome Rick.

Perhaps if we give the history of the changes you will understand how the 
boundaries work.
In the beginning was the void.
On the first day some streets were drawn in
On the second day the forest was drawn in, as a labour of love (not mine).
It may not be accurate, as you note, around villages.
On the third and fourth days more mapping was done, more streets
On the fifth day the workers got smart and found usable free information
On the sixth day the ABS data was imported.
On the seventh day we still didn't rest

The ABS data is the suburb and other boundaries.
Some are right and some are not so right. LPI (NSW) may be correct or might 
not be - in my area the ABS 'suburbs' aren't right everywhere.

So where you have better knowledge, do adjust the landuse=forest to reflect 
the correct placement.



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Re: [talk-au] How to map out streets the most efficently


--- On Wed, 17/6/09, Liz ed...@billiau.net wrote:

 It's a problem given to all computer science students to
 solve: 
 the travelling salesman.
 The more points to cover, the more processing power it uses
 
 which makes the way the human brain can solve those
 problems really cool.

The difference between people and computers, computers brute force, although 
they can at times improve search times by getting more efficent search 
algorithms.

However on the other hand humans tend to cheat, in some respect, while we can't 
usually crunch numbers in the same brute force manner as computers, we tend to 
pattern match really well, it helped during evolution if we could efficiently 
match friends or foes, dangers or harmless things quickly. This is why we 
usually don't remember names as well as faces, it's just the way our brains 
have evolved to help us survive in the past.


  

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Re: [talk-au] Hi all ...


--- On Wed, 17/6/09, Dan O'Hara oha...@homemail.com.au wrote:
 I have two immediate questions
 (actually I have a lot but
 these have been preying on my mind as a result of my
 breach).  When you go
 to an attraction, be it an outdoor winery/farm tour or say,
 fun park or caravan
 park, are the tracks worthwhile to trace into OSM? 

The more data the better, even if it isn't displayed on the main website, there 
is a bunch of 3rd party mapping sites that plot the data differently, like they 
spatialise in hiking or biking trails rather than roads etc.

 Secondly, and
 unrelated to the first question … if tracks you place
 end up being
 radically different to the established map should you just
 stop at the track
 and not trace so others can see your green/blue track or
 should you put in a
 potentially conflicting trace? I am (slowly) gaining
 knowledge in some of the
 less obvious screens to see who placed what trace where
 but, for the same
 technical reasons as above I can not “view”
 maps on OSM so this has
 not been easy. 

De ju vu... :)

http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-au/2009-June/001704.html


  

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Re: [talk-au] Hi all ...


--- On Wed, 17/6/09, Ross Scanlon i...@4x4falcon.com wrote:
 See if the way has a source tag if it does and this is
 other than survey or gps then it's generally fair game to
 move it.

There is more ways than I care to count that are marked as survey that were 
poorly traced.

 I don't have a problem with uploading gps traces to osm but
 I can see no benifit if I'm just going to edit them in josm
 anyway and given that they are all one second data that's a
 lot of data to put on the osm servers when not really
 necessary.

The benefit I see is from law of averages, to a point, if you get 50 people 
tracing out the same ways, you average the points and neglect any spurious data 
and you should have a very accurate plotting.


  

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Re: [talk-au] Hi all ...

JOSM can do all this offline and you don't have to upload the gps trace to the 
osm server before editing it.

It is easy to use and for major work is better than potlatch.  Have a read here:

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Comparison_of_editors

Best of all if it doesn't look right don't upload it and restart.



keepright for Australia is at:

http://keepright.x10hosting.com

It will show where there are errors in the current database.

I also have it set up on a server here for my own use.


Cheers
Ross


On Wed, 17 Jun 2009 22:20:51 +1000
Dan O'Hara oha...@homemail.com.au wrote:

 As a total newbie to this I was advised to use Potlatch as it was seen to be
 the easiest.  I understand that JOSM and mercaator(sp?) are more
 sophisticated eg do proper roundabouts, but I wanted to graduate first!
 Also, I can not load (or view) maps from osm.org for some reason - I have to
 download or access OSM maps from other sources.
 
 In my trials and errors - I tried to tidy up my tracks in Mapsource before
 loading (eg the aimless wandering and chatting with others before a walk or
 the straight line that sometimes happens when you turn off then turn on the
 GPS in a different location without saving the track).  However, i found out
 (after I had uploaded and traced) that some were still untidy.  I ended up
 deleting a few of my uploads and reuploading.  Lots of work for little
 return, particularly in a couple of cases.  Can JOSM and Mercaator do this
 type of tidying up? Perhaps I should move in while still wearing my Ls?
 
 Ps what's keepright?
 
 
 -Original Message-
 From: talk-au-boun...@openstreetmap.org
 [mailto:talk-au-boun...@openstreetmap.org] On Behalf Of Ross Scanlon
 Sent: Wednesday, 17 June 2009 10:11 PM
 To: talk-au@openstreetmap.org
 Subject: Re: [talk-au] Hi all ...
 
 On Wed, 17 Jun 2009 20:20:21 +1000
 Dan O'Hara oha...@homemail.com.au wrote:
 
  I have two immediate questions (actually I have a lot but these have been
  preying on my mind as a result of my breach).  When you go to an
 attraction,
  be it an outdoor winery/farm tour or say, fun park or caravan park, are
 the
  tracks worthwhile to trace into OSM?
 
 Probably not, but they may be useful for marking out the boundaries of the
 attraction.
 
   Secondly, and unrelated to the first
  question . if tracks you place end up being radically different to the
  established map should you just stop at the track and not trace so others
  can see your green/blue track or should you put in a potentially
 conflicting
  trace? I am (slowly) gaining knowledge in some of the less obvious screens
  to see who placed what trace where but, for the same technical reasons as
  above I can not view maps on OSM so this has not been easy.
  
 See if the way has a source tag if it does and this is other than survey or
 gps then it's generally fair game to move it.
 
 
 
 As an aside to this why do people upload gps traces then trace them using
 potlatch etc?
 
 I've always used josm for big uploads/edits.  Potlatch when I just want to
 quickly correct and error I've found or when using keepright.
 
 Load the area I'm working in from osm then loaded the gpx file into josm.  I
 then edit the ways etc of the gpx files using the tools in josm, simplify
 way, align nodes in circle/line etc then upload the changes to osm.
 
 I don't have a problem with uploading gps traces to osm but I can see no
 benifit if I'm just going to edit them in josm anyway and given that they
 are all one second data that's a lot of data to put on the osm servers when
 not really necessary.
 
 
 Cheers
 Ross
 
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Re: [talk-au] How to map out streets the most efficently

2009-06-17 Per discussione Andy Owen

On Wed, 2009-06-17 at 19:27 +1000, Liz wrote:
 On Wed, 17 Jun 2009, James Livingston wrote:
  There's a nice mathematical algorithm for figuring out that.
 It's a problem given to all computer science students to solve: 
 the travelling salesman.
 The more points to cover, the more processing power it uses 
 which makes the way the human brain can solve those problems really cool.
 

(sorry, I didn't get my comp sci degree for nothing :))

Actually, this is the Chinese Postman Problem, which is closer to the
problem of finding a Eulerian path, which is actually very possible -
even without knowing the map before hand (with a few assumptions). The
travelling salesman problem tries to find a short path between lots of
places, but it doesn't make any attempt to cover every street, so it
will miss out on lots of roads.

Exciting computer science ahead. Read on if bored (you've been warned):

A Eulerian path is a path that goes down every road exactly once, which
is exactly what you want. Unfortunately, it is only possible to do when
there are 0 or 2 intersections with an odd number of roads leading into
them (a dead end counts as an intersection too). And, if there is a pair
of intersections with an odd number of roads, then we need to start on
one of them (and we'll finish at the other). 

And yes, you also need to have full knowledge of the map when you are
planning, there also can't be one-way streets or turning restrictions.
If you ignore the restriction from the previous paragraph for now then:

1) Keep driving until you hit an intersection.
2) Go down a road you haven't been down. If there are multiple roads
which you haven't driven down, then pick any of the roads to follow,
unless choosing one would split the set of undriven roads in two. 

Now to fix the dead end and T intersection problem, before you start:
1) Find an intersection with an odd number of roads going to it.
2) Find the shortest path from it to any other intersection with an odd
number of roads going to it.
3) Add a fake road along that path, so you are then allowed to travel
down it more than one time.

For example, if you have a T intersection leading to a dead end, then
the dead end road would get a fake road placed over the top of it.

(but like most maths, this would probably end up making things worse if
you actually tried it - as it is much quicker to go straight than to be
constantly making right hand turns everywhere, and this algorithm
doesn't care)

(oh, and someone suggested that if the roads were all in a grid, you
could do smart things to take into account the redundancy, and just
zig-zag through, knowing you can extrapolate later... I don't know of
any algorithms that will find the best path in these cases - you would
need to add a fair bit of extra magic to existing graph theory to solve
it)

Andy
 
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[talk-au] Hi all ...

2009-06-17 Per discussione Dan O'Hara

Thanks for your comments everyone.  More reading.

 

Delta Foxtrot - I access OSM through GPS traces/see your traces link then
edit (another person uploaded a lot of my tracks before I came to OSM but
put my username in the tag so I could find and fix, do POIs, road surfaces
etc).  It is sometimes slow in opening but always does.

 

I have read other forum entries on this type of problem and have gone back
(for a little while) to IE (I normally use Firefox).   I have also contacted
my ISP to see if my access is shaped(???) and asked local OSMers if they
have similar problems.  It only started as a problem about a month, 6 weeks
or so ago.  Frustrating but I can work around it for downloads and Potlatch
opens automatically in edit.

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Re: [talk-au] Hi all ...

2009-06-17 Per discussione Darrin Smith

On Wed, 17 Jun 2009 05:30:43 -0700 (PDT)
Delta Foxtrot delta_foxt...@yahoo.com wrote:

  I don't have a problem with uploading gps traces to osm but
  I can see no benifit if I'm just going to edit them in josm
  anyway and given that they are all one second data that's a
  lot of data to put on the osm servers when not really
  necessary.
 
 The benefit I see is from law of averages, to a point, if you get 50
 people tracing out the same ways, you average the points and neglect
 any spurious data and you should have a very accurate plotting.

Have to agree about 200% with Delta on this one, I've seen way too many
cases of people who have obviously used their 1 gpx track to move and
existing surveyed way to follow it when if they'd used theirs and the
20+ traces that were available on osm (and uploaded theirs so the next
person would have 21+ to use) they'd realise their track was a off that
day. I've also seen too many cases myself where I do a first trace
down a road to get a path then put together 3 or 4 over a period of
time and realise the first trace was off. 

The moral of the story is never ever ever use a GPS trace in isolation
if there's any others available in the area, and make you traces
available so the next person working in the area can benifit from your
input also.

-- 

=b

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Re: [talk-au] Hi all ...


--- On Wed, 17/6/09, Dan O'Hara oha...@homemail.com.au wrote:
 Delta Foxtrot – I access OSM
 through “GPS traces/see
 your traces” link then “edit” (another
 person uploaded a lot
 of my tracks before I came to OSM but put my username in
 the tag so I could
 find and “fix”, do POIs, road surfaces
 etc).  It is sometimes
 slow in opening but always does. 

As I said before trying pining various hostnames to find where the issue is, it 
sounds like you can hit the main website, but not the tile servers.

Try pinging a.tile.openstreetmap.org b.tile.openstreetmap.org 
c.tile.openstreetmap.org

 I have read other forum entries on
 this type of problem and
 have gone back (for a little while) to IE (I normally use
 Firefox).   I
 have also contacted my ISP to see if my access is
 “shaped”(???) and
 asked local OSMers if they have similar problems.  It
 only started as a
 problem about a month, 6 weeks or so ago.  Frustrating
 but I can work around
 it for downloads and Potlatch opens automatically in
 “edit”. 

I don't have any issues in firefox or opera...


  

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Re: [talk-au] Hi all ...

2009-06-17 Per discussione Stephen Hope

I've ever used Potlatch-I was nervous about having an editor that was
always live - no 'edit-check-save' cycle. I understand that has
recently changed, but the point is it's not that hard to use some of
the other options.

Stephen

2009/6/17 Dan O'Hara oha...@homemail.com.au:
 As a total newbie to this I was advised to use Potlatch as it was seen to be
 the easiest.  I understand that JOSM and mercaator(sp?) are more
 sophisticated eg do proper roundabouts, but I wanted to graduate first!

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Re: [talk-au] Hi all ...

2009-06-17 Per discussione Stephen Hope

Sorry- that should be _Never_ used potlatch

2009/6/18 Stephen Hope slh...@gmail.com:
 I've ever used Potlatch-I was nervous about having an editor that was
 always live - no 'edit-check-save' cycle. I understand that has
 recently changed, but the point is it's not that hard to use some of
 the other options.

 Stephen


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Re: [talk-au] Uploading traces (Was; Hi all ...)

 Secondly, come the day when MegaMap Inc, decide to sue OSM, due to a part
 of the map looking suspiciously derived from MegaMap's products, the
 existance of GPS traces in OSM may assist greatly in defending against
 that
 threat.

Also a good reason to use simplified gpx tracks from JOSM as then the
points are exactly as the gpx track point not a traced/modified position.


-- 
Cheers
Ross



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Re: [talk-au] Hi all ...


--- On Wed, 17/6/09, Ross Scanlon i...@4x4falcon.com wrote:

 Why should I.  No where in osm does it state that a
 GPX file has to be
 uploaded.

You don't have to upload anything to OSM, but you should if you care for the 
accuracy of the information you'll upload the gpx files which will give us, as 
a collective us, enough data points to create an accurate average.

 Who said I was trivialising the problems, I only gave an
 example I can
 think of at least 50 possible errors when using gps. 
 I'm not going to
 list every possibility every time I make a comment.

If you make specific claims then people will assume that's all you had in mind.


  

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Re: [talk-au] Hi all ...

 Who said I was trivialising the problems, I only gave an
 example I can
 think of at least 50 possible errors when using gps. 
 I'm not going to
 list every possibility every time I make a comment.

 If you make specific claims then people will assume that's all you had in
 mind.


What specific claims?  I gave two examples (eg) of possible operator
induced errors.



-- 
Cheers
Ross



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Re: [talk-au] Uploading traces (Was; Hi all ...)


 --- On Wed, 17/6/09, Ross Scanlon i...@4x4falcon.com wrote:
 Generally it was directed at the comment should upload
 , made
 without anything to back it up and also rhetorical. 
 Just because some
 think they should be uploaded does not mean everyone wants,
 or has, to.


 Should doesn't mean the same thing as must, I didn't say you must upload,
 I said you should (for the greater good).

No kidding, I'm well aware of the difference betweend should and must. 
You did not say anything about the greater good and I've yet to see any
reason that it is for the greater good.

Arguments over being able to create a more accurate map when we are
talking sub 2m distances in most cases are irrelevant.  That's the
distance between one gps and the other on one of my vehicles and not even
the width of most roads.

-- 
Cheers
Ross




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[talk-au] Data Error - Junctions ?

2009-06-17 Per discussione Rick Peterson

Hello again talk-au,

I'm new to editing in the OSM project and before I start making
significant changes to another's work, I thought I should check with
people more experienced with the project to make sure I'm correct.

Background:
I was having a look at my local area with Keepright and spotted a
couple of "dead ended one ways". On close inspection in Potlatch, I see
that the junctions have not been formed correctly. The layout of the
streets, street names etc all appear to be correct.

Well, I fixed those couple of dead ended one ways, but then checking
other data around the immediate area, I see that just about all of the
regular two way junctions have not been formed correctly. I started to
fix them in one block of suburban streets, but the number of problems
is significant, so I stopped my work to contact the mailing list to
make sure I'm on the right track. (pardon the pun)

The area to look at for an example is the hamlet of Hobartville in NSW
near Richmond NSW.
http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=-33.60619lon=150.74622zoom=16

As a specific example, if you look at Luttrell Street in Hobartville http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=-33.607542lon=150.745566zoom=18layers=B000FTF you will see that none of the junctions for side roads
are correctly joined to Luttrell Street. This problem appears to be
repeated across the area generally.

My Plan:
I'll do a detailed GPS trace of the area and double check all of the
street names, then assuming that I'm correct and all of these streets
need to form standard junctions, I'll go ahead and edit the area street
by street with my trace and street names for reference to correct the
junction issue.

I wonder why these don't show up in Keepright with the
"almost-junctions" check?

Assuming this is an error on the part of the person who originally
entered the data, is it prudent to contact them to let them know in
case they continue to enter data this way ?

Any advice or suggestions appreciated.

Rick

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Re: [talk-au] Uploading traces (Was; Hi all ...)


--- On Wed, 17/6/09, Ross Scanlon i...@4x4falcon.com wrote:
 No kidding, I'm well aware of the difference betweend
 should and must. 

You keep implying must when I've said should.

 You did not say anything about the greater good and I've
 yet to see any
 reason that it is for the greater good.

Ummm if it isn't for the greater good, why else are we bothering to supply data 
and support OSM in various ways?

I don't get any personal benefit at present using OSM derived maps in most 
places I'm likely to be and it might be a long time until I do.

Yes I realise I've just made another very subjective statement and people in 
other areas will be able to benefit as is, but I'm trying to make a point about 
the philisphopical nature of the beast as much as any practical one.

 Arguments over being able to create a more accurate map
 when we are
 talking sub 2m distances in most cases are
 irrelevant.  That's the
 distance between one gps and the other on one of my
 vehicles and not even
 the width of most roads.

Unless you have better than consumer grade kit you won't be consistently 
getting within 2m of accuracy all the time, and I think that sums the argument 
up right there, you're assuming you will.


  

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Re: [talk-au] Data Error - Junctions ?

 you will see that none of the junctions for side roads
 are correctly joined to Luttrell Street. This problem appears to be
 repeated across the area generally.br

They should be joined with nodes at the junctions for all junctions, T or
cross roads.  It does not make much difference to the renderers but does
for routers like gosmore.

 I'll do a detailed GPS trace of the area and double check all of the
 street names, then assuming that I'm correct and all of these streets
 need to form standard junctions, I'll go ahead and edit the area street
 by street with my trace and street names for reference to correct the
 junction issue.br
 br
 I wonder why these don't show up in Keepright with the
 almost-junctions check?br
 br

Maybe not close enough, or too many errors showing up as keepright only
shows 100 at a time.

 Assuming this is an error on the part of the person who originally
 entered the data, is it prudent to contact them to let them know in
 case they continue to enter data this way ?br
 br

Probably a good idea.


-- 
Cheers
Ross



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Re: [talk-au] Uploading traces (Was; Hi all ...)


--- On Wed, 17/6/09, Delta Foxtrot delta_foxt...@yahoo.com wrote:

 Unless you have better than consumer grade kit you won't be
 consistently getting within 2m of accuracy all the time, and
 I think that sums the argument up right there, you're
 assuming you will.

Let me re-phrase... The main reason I think uploading GPX files is important is 
so we can average all the data available and get within 1 to 2m accuracy.

At this point in time there is no way possible that everyone will actually be 
getting 2m or better of accuracy all the time unless they have better than 
currently available consumer grade kit.

Secondly, and I hadn't really considered this possibility but it could be more 
important given the right circumstance, is so that it can be used as evidence 
on how the map was derived.


  

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Re: [talk-au] Uploading traces (Was; Hi all ...)

 --- On Wed, 17/6/09, Ross Scanlon i...@4x4falcon.com wrote:
 No kidding, I'm well aware of the difference betweend
 should and must.

 You keep implying must when I've said should.

No i'm not implying must.  I asked why SHOULD we be uploading them.

 You did not say anything about the greater good and I've
 yet to see any
 reason that it is for the greater good.

 Ummm if it isn't for the greater good, why else are we bothering to supply
 data and support OSM in various ways?

The greater good is supported by the end product not by data (GPX files)
that, although supports the end product, is not shown in the final map or
routing solutions.

 I don't get any personal benefit at present using OSM derived maps in most
 places I'm likely to be and it might be a long time until I do.

 Yes I realise I've just made another very subjective statement and people
 in other areas will be able to benefit as is, but I'm trying to make a
 point about the philisphopical nature of the beast as much as any
 practical one.

Do any of us?  I've put in about 12000km's of ways and yes I'm getting
more benefit daily but there are still places without osm data and if I'm
going there I'll add data from them.

 Arguments over being able to create a more accurate map
 when we are
 talking sub 2m distances in most cases are
 irrelevant.  That's the
 distance between one gps and the other on one of my
 vehicles and not even
 the width of most roads.

 Unless you have better than consumer grade kit you won't be consistently
 getting within 2m of accuracy all the time, and I think that sums the
 argument up right there, you're assuming you will.

And yet again you are assuming I'm saying something totally different to
what I'm saying.  What I'm refering to is when there are multiple traces
all less than 2m apart IN MOST CASES not the accuracy of the gps.  Who
said I don't have better than consumer grade equipment?

Most consumer grade will be less than 5m but generally arround 10m
depending on particular hardware used but that's a matter of checking the
HDOP at the time.  At no point did I say anything about getting 2m
accuracy from consumer grade equipment.

-- 
Cheers
Ross



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Re: [talk-au] Data Error - Junctions ?

2009-06-17 Per discussione Rick Peterson





Delta Foxtrot wrote:

  
Because they aren't joined,
  


Hi Delta, thanks for the reply.

Because they aren't joined is exactly the reason they should show in
Keepright IMO, although I take your point about false postives with
service roads etc.

>From Keepright:
"almost-junctions
Streets that have (at least) one unconnected
end are examined here. If such an end-node is very close to any other
way an error is reported. Unconnected end-nodes should probably be
connected to adjacent ways."

In the situation that prompted my original mail, most of these streets
have no node connection to other ways whatsoever, and they are all very
close to another way, because they indeed form junctions with those
roads that they are very near.

I'll play around with Keepright to see if I can get the errors to show,
perhaps I'm doing something wrong with the number of error limit.

Cheers,

Rick






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Re: [talk-au] Uploading traces (Was; Hi all ...)


--- On Wed, 17/6/09, Ross Scanlon i...@4x4falcon.com wrote:
 The greater good is supported by the end product not by
 data (GPX files)
 that, although supports the end product, is not shown in
 the final map or
 routing solutions.

We were always told to show our working out in school for a reason, to prove we 
knew how to derive the answer, and if not to show where we went wrong, 
otherwise you can only make assumptions about the final product without any 
certainty of how you came to that conclusion. 

 And yet again you are assuming I'm saying something totally
 different to
 what I'm saying.  What I'm refering to is when there
 are multiple traces
 all less than 2m apart IN MOST CASES not the accuracy of
 the gps.  Who
 said I don't have better than consumer grade equipment?

Which is why I refined my answer in further emails, if someone does have better 
than consumer grade kit it's all the more reason for it to end up in the OSM 
database to give better averages, rather than have them skewed by less accurate 
equipment because of assumptions made by those committing changes without 
showing their working out.

 Most consumer grade will be less than 5m but generally
 arround 10m
 depending on particular hardware used but that's a matter
 of checking the
 HDOP at the time.  At no point did I say anything

GPS chips don't always get HDOP accurate, or they lie.


  

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Re: [talk-au] Data Error - Junctions ?

2009-06-17 Per discussione Stephen Hope

2009/6/18 Rick Peterson ausr...@iinet.net.au:
 Background:
 I was having a look at my local area with Keepright and spotted a couple of
 dead ended one ways. On close inspection in Potlatch, I see that the
 junctions have not been formed correctly. The layout of the streets, street
 names etc all appear to be correct.

 Well, I fixed those couple of dead ended one ways, but then checking other
 data around the immediate area, I see that just about all of the regular two
 way junctions have not been formed correctly. I started to fix them in one
 block of suburban streets, but the number of problems is significant, so I
 stopped my work to contact the mailing list to make sure I'm on the right
 track. (pardon the pun)

There are huge numbers of these around Australia.  I think a lot of
them are caused by people who originally traced the ways from imagery,
and didn't make sure that the ways connected up properly (or at all,
in some cases). It's gotten to the point where every time I edit an
area to add names, etc the first thing I do is run an error check (I
use JOSM) and fix as many as possible from the data I have.  Otherwise
when I get to the point of checking my own edits, they're swamped in
other problems.

 I wonder why these don't show up in Keepright with the almost-junctions
 check?

Maybe it's almost is closer than you might expect, or perhaps it's
just buggy.  Or there's so many errors it runs out before finishing
the check?

Stephen

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Re: [talk-au] Uploading traces (Was; Hi all ...)

 If the data was challenged that I entered then osm can
 contact me for the
 original data.  In the meantime why are we filling up
 storage on osm with
 data that is not producing the final product ie the map.

 Why do I need to challenge you to prove what you did was correct, if the
 GPX information is present and downloaded into say JOSM I can see if you
 did a good job or not, otherwise I am left guessing based on the data
 other people provided.

I did not say you were challenging me.  I'm talking about the final
product being challenged by MegaMap Inc and osm being able to show where
the data came from.  osm if necessary could then obtain that data from me,
the history of the origin of the data is in the database.


 No, if someone had better than consumer grade equipment
 then that should

 How do I take your word on that if you haven't proven yourself to be
 honest in this matter and shown your working out?

How do I take your word for it when you use an anonymous mail address and
don't sign your name to any email.

 be uploaded and locked so that it can not be changed except
 by the person
 uploading the data or on request to them.  It would
 override the consumer
 grade equipment totally.

 Yes, people always tell the truth all the time, but that doesn't prove
 anything.

I never said that users with better than consumer grade equipment should
have an automatic right to this.  There would of course have to be some
sort of confirmation of capability by osm.

What I am saying is that if known high quality data is available don't
degrade it by averaging with known low quality data.

 But they are very rarely (less than once a year) wrong.

 News to me, I've had several devices with various brands of GPS chips in
 them and they will say for example 8m accuracy and be out by 100m at
 times.

 I especially noticed this since I started embedding OSM maps into an app
 I'm coding and the GPS accuracy will be within a reasonable tolerance, but
 the plot on the map will be all over the place.

Hdop is not an indication of distance it is an indication of the
confidence of the accuracy of the position and it is not readily
translated to distance.  So if you had an hdop of 8 then I would expect
the position to be very inaccurate.


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Re: [talk-au] Uploading traces (Was; Hi all ...)


--- On Thu, 18/6/09, Ross Scanlon i...@4x4falcon.com wrote:
 How do I take your word for it when you use an anonymous
 mail address and
 don't sign your name to any email.

Just because you used a less common alias, how do I even know the name you 
supply is true?

In reality it doesn't actually matter, trust is a fluid concept that changes 
shape over time based on past experiences and most importantly what you can 
prove.

Without proof all we have is the word of someone with an assumed name and a 
semi-anonymous email account. I could have gone to a lot more trouble if I 
really wanted to, but you get the idea of where this is heading.
 
 I never said that users with better than consumer grade
 equipment should
 have an automatic right to this.  There would of
 course have to be some
 sort of confirmation of capability by osm.

You mean like proof? :)

Also just because they have access to better equipment, do they exclusively 
only use that equipment?

How often is it calibrated?

Do they have suitable qualifications to make statements of fact regarding the 
information they provide?

 What I am saying is that if known high quality data is
 available don't
 degrade it by averaging with known low quality data.

I agree, but it's a safe assumption 95+% of the data supplied to OSM isn't high 
quality GPS data and for those sections covered by the lower quality data 
averaging would be useful.

 Hdop is not an indication of distance it is an indication
 of the
 confidence of the accuracy of the position and it is not
 readily
 translated to distance.  So if you had an hdop of 8
 then I would expect
 the position to be very inaccurate.

I agree with you about being a confidence rating, however everything seems to 
treat this guesstimate of accuracy in terms of this answer is right within a 
possibility of say 24 metres.

From all the documentation I've seen, HDOP is treated as the accuracy divided 
by 6, so if the chip estimates within 24m, the HDOP will be 4.


  

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Re: [talk-au] How many points are too few to upload?



 the other hand you can get 10,000+ point files being
 uploaded as well and I need to run gpsbabel over the file
 before uploading it.

 Does anyone know if this is a good filter to use against gpx files?

 gpsbabel -i gpx -f test -x simplify,crosstrack,error=0.0001k -o gpx -F
 test.gpx

 Before: 9180 points
 After: 3207 points

Have you loaded both into josm and seen how they compare?

That would give you an idication on how the filter affects the data.

-- 
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Re: [talk-au] How many points are too few to upload?


--- On Thu, 18/6/09, Peter Ross pe...@emailross.com wrote:
 In that case I can't help you whether it's a good idea or
 not.
 Generally I upload all my points to OSM and then let other
 people
 decide whether or not they want to filter them.

I have no problem doing that, but I thought I was being, in a sense 
responsible, by filtering out the redundant points recorded. 


  

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Re: [talk-au] How many points are too few to upload?


--- On Thu, 18/6/09, Ross Scanlon i...@4x4falcon.com wrote:
 Have you loaded both into josm and seen how they compare?
 
 That would give you an idication on how the filter affects
 the data.

No I hadn't, but I'm in the process of doing it now.

I was hoping for a common consensus, if there was one, on redundant information.

Something interesting I did note, when I compressed both files, so I could 
download/test them, the before file was 35k, the file gpsbabel produced is 45k.


  

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Re: [talk-au] Uploading traces (Was; Hi all ...)

 * improving routing information, by working out average speed on roads
 (at different times).

If your connected to the internet that's fine but it's no use for on the
road re-routing, unless you have all the gps traces downloaded to your
gps.

This should be tagged by maxspeed anyway.

Some one may have also driven the road really slowly (push bike) and some
one may have done it at the speed limit.  This would skew any reliability.

 * improving height maps, by taking (lots of) samples where altitude
 information was present.

Pointless, vertical data is grossly out from a gps you are better off
using the NASA dem data.

 * automatically guessing the number of lanes on a road, by looking at
 the variance of traces over sections in each direction.

Should be tagged anyway (when more than 1) and how do you know it's not an
accuracy problem.

 * automatically marking ways which haven't been looked at for a long
 time, so someone can revisit them to make sure they haven't changed.

A good idea.

 * (insert your imagination here)

 If we had a trace here showing a person getting to a dead end, turning
 around and going back around the other way, then it would be much more
 convincing that the OSM data is correct. As it is, it is our word
 against google's.

I was going to say look at the sat photo but that dosn't help as its
covered over with trees.

We have to trust that osm's are putting in accurate data but from what
I've seen the data already there is miles better than google maps
particularly in rural Australia.

-- 
Cheers
Ross



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Re: [talk-au] How many points are too few to upload?


 Have you loaded both into josm and seen how they
 compare?

For the most part they are almost identical, but there is a few small 
differences, although probably not enough that most people would worry about, 
but the bigger question is how OSM stores them, if they compress the files the 
original would be better as gpsbabel makes them bigger.


  

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Re: [talk-au] Uploading traces (Was; Hi all ...)


--- On Thu, 18/6/09, Ross Scanlon i...@4x4falcon.com wrote:
 We have to trust that osm's are putting in accurate data
 but from what
 I've seen the data already there is miles better than
 google maps
 particularly in rural Australia.

The benefit of collecting fresh data, so knowing rought times between 
collections is probably important here, I often see mistakes on google maps 
that has to be from ancient data sources that have never been updated since.

Also the train lines on gmaps follow ABS like paths in places where the line 
has been straightened, but the mapping data hasn't.


  

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Re: [talk-au] How to map out streets the most efficently


--- On Wed, 17/6/09, Andy Owen andy-...@ultra-premium.com wrote:
 (oh, and someone suggested that if the roads were all in a
 grid, you
 could do smart things to take into account the redundancy,
 and just
 zig-zag through, knowing you can extrapolate later... I
 don't know of
 any algorithms that will find the best path in these cases
 - you would
 need to add a fair bit of extra magic to existing graph
 theory to solve
 it)

I was thinking about this earlier, what's the most important feature about 
roads, the answer is the end points, which for the most part are dead ends or 
T-intersections.

The next important piece of information is the points where streets or roads 
intersect.

Finally any extra information about the path of the street between 
intersections.

If you have the first 2, the third piece of information can be extrapolated, 
especially if the streets are mostly straight.

So it's not as important to traverse every street if you can get the end points 
and intersections of streets, the rest can be refined.


  

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Re: [Talk-br] Tradução para o Português

2009-06-17 Per discussione Vitor George

Mandei!

Parece que existe um script para editar as traduções via web, mas não sei se
está funcionando:

http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/dev/2009-June/015824.html

2009/6/17 Samuel Vale srcv...@minaslivre.org

 Em Ter, 2009-06-16 às 14:08 -0300, Vitor George escreveu:
  Amigos,
 
  O arquivo de tradução estava praticamento pronto, mas, checando no
  repositório SVN,  percebi que a estrutura do arquivo foi bastante
  alterada. Vejam os links:
 
  http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Pt-br.yml
  http://svn.openstreetmap.org/sites/rails_port/config/locales/
 
  Alguma idéia para aproveitarmos o que já fizemos?
 

 Conclui a atualização do pt-br.yml, creio estar de acordo com o arquivo
 do SVN da data de hoje.

 http://phractal.holoscopio.com/git/osm-pt_br.git/pt-br.yml

 Alguém pode revisar e enviar o arquivo?

 Abraço,
 Samuel

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Re: [Talk-de] neue Version des OSM-A-FINDER

2009-06-17 Per discussione Michael Buchberger

Hi Tobias,

neue Version, bitte ausprobieren:
http://openstreetmap.tobwen.de/osm-a-finder/query.php

die Version hat bei mir Probleme mit Umlauten!
Suche nach Köln und ich bekomme keinen Treffer.

Auch bei der Trefferanzeige werden Umlaute als 
Raute mit einem Fragezeichen angezeigt.

Tschuess
 Michae



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Re: [Talk-de] neue Version des OSM-A-FINDER

2009-06-17 Per discussione Aussem, Thomas








Hi Tobias,neue Version, bitte ausprobieren:http://openstreetmap.tobwen.de/osm-a-finder/query.phpdie Version hat bei mir Probleme mit Umlauten!Suche nach Köln und ich bekomme keinen Treffer.
Ist vielleicht ein Problem mit Köln ;-)
Da eine Suche z.B.nach Düren, Düsseldorf und Königswinter einwandfreu funktioniert.

Gruß,
Thomas

Auch bei der Trefferanzeige werden Umlaute als Raute mit einem Fragezeichen angezeigt.TschuessMichae___Talk-de mailing listTalk-de@openstreetmap.orghttp://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de

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Re: [Talk-de] forest wood und Layer

2009-06-17 Per discussione Martin Simon

Am 17. Juni 2009 04:31 schrieb Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com:

 Zu allem Übel scheint es auch so, als sei forest im Englischen eher
 das Wort für einen richtigen Wald, während Wood eher was kleineres
 oder lichteres ist :(

So benutze ich es auch mittlerweile - landuse=forest ist ein
richtiger Wald, der seine eigene Landuse-Fläche rechtfertigt (vgl.
die Diskussion um landuse=residential/commercial und Mischgebiete),
natural=wood nehme ich eher für Wäldchen und Baumansammlungen
innerhalb anderer Flächen wie Parks

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Re: [Talk-de] forest wood und Layer

2009-06-17 Per discussione Marc Schütz

Zu der Problematik landuse in landuse u.ä. ist hier vor kurzem ein Ticket 
aufgemacht worden:
http://trac.openstreetmap.org/ticket/1953

Grüße, Marc

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[Talk-de] Nordpol auf dem Aequator?

2009-06-17 Per discussione Sebastian Waschik

Hallo,

hatte vor 12 Tagen auf
http://www.openstreetmap.org/?mlat=0.6mlon=0.3zoom=14
gesehen (Mapnik).  Habe mal kurz in den Datenlayer geschaut und nichts
gesehen.  Heute steht das immer noch da.  Außerdem wird, wenn man
näher hineinzoomt ein P dagestellt.  Habe heute noch einmal in der
Nähe gesucht.  Da habe ich westentlich weiter nördlich und östlich
einen Parkplatz und andere Dinge gefunden.
http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/node/378733763/history
http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/node/375805756/history
http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/node/375805755/history
http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/32486967/history
http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/node/411722452/history

Keiner der obigen Knoten/Wege enthält North Pole in der History.
Obiges kann man mit folgener URL in JOSM sehen:
http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=0.09lon=-0.0050zoom=9

Außerdem habe ich mit der XAPI und dem Namefinder von OSM nach dem
North Pole gesucht.  Bis auf dem richtigen Nordpol und Straßen, die so
heißen habe ich aber nichts gefunden.

Wird das Problem von einem inzwischen gelöschtem Knoten verursacht und
erledigt sich in Mapnik dann mit der Zeit von alleine?  Ich hatte nur
gedacht, dass innerhalb von 12 Tagen die Kachel einmal neugerendert
werden sollte.

Viele Grüße
Sebastian Waschik


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[Talk-de] Radiointerviews heute 17h: Podcast ü ber OSM

2009-06-17 Per discussione Lulu-Ann

Hallo Listen,

heute, am Mittwoch, 17. Juni 2009 wird beim Fnordfunk
eine Sendung über OpenStreetMap ausgestrahlt.

Titel:
Fnordfunk 040: Freie Landkarten mit OpenStreetMap

Zeit: 17 bis 19 Uhr.

Im Anschluß kann die Sendung als Podcast in den Formaten .mp3 und .ogg 
aufgerufen werden.

http://fnordfunk.cccmz.de/

Schöne Grüße
Lulu-Ann

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Re: [Talk-de] forest wood und Layer

Am 17. Juni 2009 12:19 schrieb Marc Schütz schue...@gmx.net:
 Zu der Problematik landuse in landuse u.ä. ist hier vor kurzem ein Ticket 
 aufgemacht worden:
 http://trac.openstreetmap.org/ticket/1953

wobei das hier m.E. nicht relevant ist, da parks kein landuse sind
(bei OSM), sondern leisure.

Gruß Martin

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[Talk-de] Allgemeines Datenproblem? Re: Nordpol auf dem Aequator?

2009-06-17 Per discussione Heiko Jacobs

Sebastian Waschik schrieb:
 hatte vor 12 Tagen auf
 http://www.openstreetmap.org/?mlat=0.6mlon=0.3zoom=14
 gesehen (Mapnik). 

Es gibt da bspw.
http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/node/269538499/history

 Habe mal kurz in den Datenlayer geschaut und nichts gesehen.

Der obige liegt ja auch etwas weiter im Norden...
Was passiert denn mit Daten in OSM mit Breiten  85 oder  -85?
(Und Längen  180 oder  -180 ...)
(Soweit scheint OSM definiert... Wie mappen wir denn bloß
Antarctica City, wenn die Klimakatastrophe vollends zuschlug? ;-) )

Sieht so aus, als würden die auf 0 runterprojiziert?
Dann könnte der Parkplatz ja sonstwo verortet sein ...

Gruß Heiko Mueck Jacobs


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Re: [Talk-de] forest wood und Layer

2009-06-17 Per discussione Marc Schütz

  Zu der Problematik landuse in landuse u.ä. ist hier vor kurzem ein
 Ticket aufgemacht worden:
  http://trac.openstreetmap.org/ticket/1953
 
 wobei das hier m.E. nicht relevant ist, da parks kein landuse sind
 (bei OSM), sondern leisure.

Doch, das passt schon. Ich hätte es nur allgemeiner formulieren sollen:
Fläche in Fläche.

Grüße, Marc

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Re: [Talk-de] forest wood und Layer

Am 17. Juni 2009 13:44 schrieb Marc Schütz schue...@gmx.net:
  Zu der Problematik landuse in landuse u.ä. ist hier vor kurzem ein
 Ticket aufgemacht worden:
  http://trac.openstreetmap.org/ticket/1953

 wobei das hier m.E. nicht relevant ist, da parks kein landuse sind
 (bei OSM), sondern leisure.

 Doch, das passt schon. Ich hätte es nur allgemeiner formulieren sollen:
 Fläche in Fläche.

ja, im Prinzip ist es schon das Thema, wobei in dem Spezialfall Wald
im Park, der m.E. häufig auftaucht (im Gegensatz zu Park im Wald) die
Sache auch ohne eine grundsätzliche Lösung des Problems zu handeln
wäre.

Gruß Martin

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Re: [Talk-de] Allgemeines Datenproblem? Nordpol auf dem Aequator?

2009-06-17 Per discussione Dirk Stöcker


On Wed, 17 Jun 2009, Heiko Jacobs wrote:


Der obige liegt ja auch etwas weiter im Norden...
Was passiert denn mit Daten in OSM mit Breiten  85 oder  -85?
(Und Längen  180 oder  -180 ...)
(Soweit scheint OSM definiert... Wie mappen wir denn bloß
Antarctica City, wenn die Klimakatastrophe vollends zuschlug? ;-) )


Mappen kannst Du es ganz normal. Nur die Karten müssen dann entsprechend 
angepasst werden. Und die Editoren auch.



Sieht so aus, als würden die auf 0 runterprojiziert?


Das wäre eindeutig falsch. Kann ich mir aber nicht vorstellen.

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Re: [Talk-de] Proposal: access-Tags mit Bedingungen

Am 17. Juni 2009 00:03 schrieb Tobias Knerr o...@tobias-knerr.de:
 Na ja, nachdem sich hier wohl sonst niemand mehr zu Wort melden wird,
 habe ich mal eine Komplettversion aus den Einzelbestandteilen der
 bisherigen Proposals erstellt und einen Poll zur Klammersyntax eingestellt.

 http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Extended_conditions_for_access_tags

Danke, habe mal einen Crosspost auf der hießigen lokalen Liste gemacht.

Gruß Martin

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Re: [Talk-de] neue Version des OSM-A-FINDER

Am 16. Juni 2009 23:31 schrieb Tobias Wendorff
tobias.wendo...@uni-dortmund.de:
 Hallo Community,

 neue Version, bitte ausprobieren:
 http://openstreetmap.tobwen.de/osm-a-finder/query.php


nach dem ersten Test war ich eigentlich zufrieden: Suche nach Tubingen
brachte Tübingen als erstes Ergebnis ;-)

Allerdings führte die Suche nach Tü dann zu folgendem Fehler:
Warning: array_unique() [function.array-unique]: The argument should
be an array in /home/tobwen/public_html/openstreetmap/osm-a-finder/query.php
on line 112

Warning: array_values() [function.array-values]: The argument should
be an array in /home/tobwen/public_html/openstreetmap/osm-a-finder/query.php
on line 112

Warning: implode() [function.implode]: Invalid arguments passed in
/home/tobwen/public_html/openstreetmap/osm-a-finder/query.php on line
119
Suchbegriff war: tü
Keine Ergebnisse!

Gruß Martin

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Re: [Talk-de] Allgemeines Datenproblem? Nordpol auf dem Aequator?

2009-06-17 Per discussione SLXViper


 Der obige liegt ja auch etwas weiter im Norden...
 Was passiert denn mit Daten in OSM mit Breiten  85 oder  -85?
 (Und Längen  180 oder  -180 ...)
 (Soweit scheint OSM definiert... Wie mappen wir denn bloß
 Antarctica City, wenn die Klimakatastrophe vollends zuschlug? ;-) )

 Mappen kannst Du es ganz normal. Nur die Karten müssen dann
 entsprechend angepasst werden. Und die Editoren auch.
Das ist ein grundsätzliches mathematisches Problem bei der Verwendung
der Mercator-Projektion. Wenn man sich einmal die Berechnungsformel für
die Kartenkoordinaten (also wo ein Punkt mit gegebenen geografischen
Koordinaten auf der Karte hinprojiziert wird) erkennt man das Problem
sehr leicht:
Y=arcsinh(tan α)
Der Tangens strebt den Fall α→±90° gegen den Wert unendlich (also
schlampig geschrieben: tan(90°)=∞), was für einen normalen, rein
numerisch rechnenden Computer zu Problemen führt. arsinh hat zwar den
passenden Wertebereich, strebt aber für Werte, die gegen unendlich
gehen, selbst gegen unendlich (schlampig: arcsinh(∞)=∞), was natürlich
auf keiner Karte vollständig richtig darstellbar ist.
Aus diesem Verhalten resultiert übrigens auch die entsprechende
Flächenverzerrung und extreme Größe der Polargebiete auf einer
Mercator-Karte.
Hier müsste man, wenn man die Polargebiete halbwegs richtig darstellen
will, auf eine andere Projektion umsteigen oder, wenn man gewisse
Ungenauigkeiten akzeptieren kann, eine entsprechende Näherungslösung
finden.
 Sieht so aus, als würden die auf 0 runterprojiziert?

 Das wäre eindeutig falsch. Kann ich mir aber nicht vorstellen.
Hier liegt offensichtlich ein Fehler vor, denn es wird ∞ als 0
interpretiert. Hier sollte man dringend nachbessern.

Grüße

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[Talk-de] Ladezeiten Potlatch

2009-06-17 Per discussione jorkh

moin,
geht es nur mir so oder ist Potlatch seit ein paar Tagen gehandicapt?
Die Ladezeiten sind echt nervig und dann fehlt oft noch die Hälfte.

VG

Jörk


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Re: [Talk-de] highway unclassified

OK, nachdem hier kein Widerspruch kam, habe ich den Wikieintrag für
unclassified jetzt mal hinsichtlich der Sammelstraßen angepasst und
gebe das hier bekannt, auf das die Klagen massenhaft auf mich
einströmen (hoffentlich nicht):
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Template:De:Description:Highway:Unclassified

Gruß Martin

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Re: [Talk-de] Allgemeines Datenproblem? Nordpol auf dem Aequator?

2009-06-17 Per discussione Dirk Stöcker


On Wed, 17 Jun 2009, SLXViper wrote:


Mappen kannst Du es ganz normal. Nur die Karten müssen dann
entsprechend angepasst werden. Und die Editoren auch.

Das ist ein grundsätzliches mathematisches Problem bei der Verwendung
der Mercator-Projektion. Wenn man sich einmal die Berechnungsformel für


Ich habe ja nicht gesagt, dass man dafür Mercartor beibehalten kann. :-)


Sieht so aus, als würden die auf 0 runterprojiziert?


Das wäre eindeutig falsch. Kann ich mir aber nicht vorstellen.

Hier liegt offensichtlich ein Fehler vor, denn es wird ∞ als 0
interpretiert. Hier sollte man dringend nachbessern.


Wie gesagt, ich zweifle daran. Werte in der Nähe der Pole sind in den 
Datensätzen, welche die Äquatorkacheln erstellen normalerweise nicht 
enthalten und können so auch nicht falsch projiziert werden.


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[Talk-de] Straßenverzeichnis Recklinghausen

2009-06-17 Per discussione Tobias Wendorff

Hallo Community,

kann das bitte jemand an die Recklinghausener weiterleiten, falls die
einen eigenen Talk haben?

Das Amtliches Straßenverzeichnis der Stadt Recklinghausen gibt es als
PDF für eine Gebühr über 4,50 EUR über susanne.schu...@recklinghausen.de

Grüße
Tobias

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Re: [Talk-de] OSM für Gewässernutzer

Hallo Stephan,

Danke dass Du dieses Thema aufgreifst!

 Über die Kennzeichnung der Uferlinie habe ich mir ein paar Gedanken gemacht.

_natural=coastline_

Ja, nur wenn die Küstenlinie und Flussufer genauer attributiert wird, 
weiss ich, ob ich dort mein Kajak ins Wasser bringen kann (ob mit einer 
klassischen Paddelstütze, oder eher mit Weitwurf und 
Hinterherspringen, oder besser gar nicht).

Und am Meer ist das Ufer auch nicht überall zum Schwimmen geeignet.
Manchmal nur für http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Klippenspringen
http://www.openstreetmap.org/index.html?mlat=16.8459mlon=-99.9153zoom=18
(da gibt es wohl keine OSMer?)

In Häfen werden die festen Hafenanlagen ebenfalls mit 
natural=coastline bezeichnet. Auch da ist eine Differenzierung 
erforderlich. Eine feste Pier beispielsweise kann auf der einen Seite 
zum Anlegen für Schiffe ausgebaut sein, ein Teil davon ist vielleicht 
für die Küstenwache oder für Fischerboote reserviert, auf der anderen 
Seite der Mole liegen aber vielleicht nur Felsbrocken oder Tripoden.
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/de:Hafen#Umriss_des_Hafens
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/de:Hafen#einzelne_Anlegestelle

_Trockenfallendes Gebiet_

 Zwischen der Wasserfläche und der genutzten Landfläche liegt oft ein
 einige Meter breiter Streifen, der begehbar oder nicht begehbar, steil
 oder flach, bewachsen, natürlich oder künstlich befestigt sein kann.
 Meist unterscheidet sich diese Uferzone deutlich von der benachbarten
 Landnutzung. 

Dieser Streifen heisst trockenfallendes Gebiet. Genaugenommen gilt 
diese Bezeichnung für den Bereich zwischen tiefstem und höchstem 
Wasserstand in Gezeitengewässern (Tidenunterschied 30cm). Aber auch bei 
Gewässern mit kleinerer Tide entsteht dieser Streifen durch ständige 
Wellen, oder bei Stauseen und Flüssen durch Wasserstandsänderungen. Je 
flacher der Übergang vom Wasser zum Land, und je grösser die 
Wasserstandsänderung, desto breiter ist dieser Streifen. In Wattgebieten 
oder Flussmündungen kann er mehrere Kilometer breit sein.

An dieser Nahtstelle zwischen Meer und Land treffen auch zwei 
inkompatible Höhensysteme aufeinander: einerseits Meerestiefen, die sich 
in Tidengewässern auf Lowest Astronomical Tide (LAT), in Gewässern mit 
einer Tide 30cm auf Mittelwasser beziehen, und andererseits 
topografische Höhen, die sich auf Normalhöhennull beziehen.

In OSM gibt es dafür noch keine Lösung, da bisher Höhen und Meerestiefen 
nicht erfasst werden. Die Küstenlinie soll sich auf mittleres 
Springhochwasser beziehen. Sie wird bisher aus einer Datenbank 
übernommen und manuell nach Luftbildern verfeinert. Aber das 
funktioniert natürlich nur bei Steilküsten mit möglichst keinem Tidenhub.

Wenn man den Übergang von Wasser zum Land genauer darstellen will, 
braucht man 2 Linien:
- Übergang vom Wasser zum trockenfallenden Gebiet (LAT)
- Übergang vom trockenfallenden Gebiet zum Land (MSpHW)
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/de:Küstenlinie

_shoreline=..._

 Über ein shoreline-tag als Linie könnte man das Ufer klassifizieren:
 
 wall - senkrechte Mauer oder Spundwand (1m über Wasser)
 step - niedrige befestigte Kante (1m über Wasser)
 embankment - befestigte Böschung (15-45° Steigung, meist nicht begehbar)
 slip - befestigter flacher Übergang ins Wasser
 
 mud - Matsch, Schlick
 sand - fester Sand
 stones - größere Steine
 rock - Felsküste
 
 wood - dichtstehende Bäume
 scrub - Gebüsch
 gras - Gras, Rasen
 reed - Schilf oder andere Wasserpflanzen

Diese Vorschläge finde ich ausgezeichnet!

Allerdings würde ich nur sehr schmale (5m) Streifen in Verbindung mit 
natural=coastline als ergänzender Schlüssel shoreline=... mit den 
von Dir vorgeschlagenen Werten verwenden.

_natural=..._

Für breitere Zonen sollten unbedingt Flächen gezeichnet werden.
Dafür kann man dann den Schlüssel natural=... verwenden, ebenfalls 
ergänzt durch die von Dir vorgeschlagenen Werte.

Um das eindeutig zu beschreiben, empfehle ich Dir verschiedene Küsten zu 
fotografieren und den Bildern die entsprechend passenden Attribute 
zuzuordnen. Dann ist das dann in allen Sprachen eindeutig.

_Beschaffenheit und Nutzung_

 Ich finde es sinvoller, die physikalischen Eigenschaften der Uferkante 
 einzugeben als die Nutzung. 

Das sind zwei verschiedene Klassen. Beide sind zur Beschreibung von 
Geo-Objekten sinnvoll und ergänzen einander.

In Häfen beispielsweise gibt es unterschiedliche Nutzungsmöglichkeiten 
und -Einschränkungen bei ansonsten gleicher physikalischer Eigenschaft 
der Uferkante.
Auch beim Flusswandern ist nicht jeder möglich Zugang auch für den Ein- 
oder Ausstieg freigegeben. Und nicht jedes Wehr darf befahren werden, 
auch wenn es technisch vielleicht möglich wäre.

_internationale Beschreibung_

 Sowohl für das Meer wie auch für Flüsse und Binnenseen gibt es viele 
 Nutzungseinschränkungen

Ja, und im Gegensatz zu den Strassen, bei denen jedes Land eigene 
Klassifizierungssysteme benutzt, haben sich die Binnen- und 
Hochseeschiffer seit Jahrzehnten auf ein

Re: [Talk-de] Ortsnamen

Hallo Johannes,

 Lösungsansätze waren:
 http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/de:Anzeige_von_Städten 
 Die Tabelle ist zu groß, um sie im Wiki zu pflegen

Ich kann Dir die Excel-Tabelle gern schicken.
Mit einem VBA-Makro kannst Du daraus nach den Änderungen eine wikitable 
erzeugen und diese wieder hochladen: 
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Textverarbeitung/EXCEL-Tabellenumwandlung

Noch besser wäre natürlich, wenn jemand die Renderer so programmieren 
könnte, dass sie diese (oder eine ähnliche) Tabelle berücksichtigen.

Gruss, Markus

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Re: [Talk-de] OSM für Gewässernutzer

2009-06-17 Per discussione Falk Zscheile

Moin.

Am 17. Juni 2009 17:42 schrieb Markus liste12a4...@gmx.de:


 Ja, nur wenn die Küstenlinie und Flussufer genauer attributiert wird,
 weiss ich, ob ich dort mein Kajak ins Wasser bringen kann (ob mit einer
 klassischen Paddelstütze, oder eher mit Weitwurf und
 Hinterherspringen, oder besser gar nicht).

 [...]




 In Häfen werden die festen Hafenanlagen ebenfalls mit
 natural=coastline bezeichnet. Auch da ist eine Differenzierung
 erforderlich. Eine feste Pier beispielsweise kann auf der einen Seite
 zum Anlegen für Schiffe ausgebaut sein, ein Teil davon ist vielleicht
 für die Küstenwache oder für Fischerboote reserviert, auf der anderen
 Seite der Mole liegen aber vielleicht nur Felsbrocken oder Tripoden.
 http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/de:Hafen#Umriss_des_Hafens
 http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/de:Hafen#einzelne_Anlegestelle


Was spricht Deiner Meinung nach dagegen eine Kaikante mit man_made=quay
zusätzlich zu natural=coastline zu taggen? Damit wäre ein Anschluss zur
Systematik man_made=pier hergestellt. Jetty verwendet die INT 17Karte 1[1]
eher im Sinne von Pier (vgl. (F 14).

Auf Rügen wurden zum Teil auch Hafenmolen mit man_made=breakwater
bezeichnet[2], was ich persönlich für keine gute Idee halte. Was meint ihr
dazu? Wäre hier vielleicht auch etwas wie man_made=mole sinnvoll? Auch die
INT 1 differenziert zwischen breakwater (F 4) und mole (F 12). Der
Unterschied scheint das Vorhandensein einer Anlegemöglichkeit zu sein. Wenn
vorhanden dann Mole.

Grüße, Falk

[1] Zeichen, Abkürzungen, Begriffe in deutschen Seekarten (Stand 6.10.2006)
[2]
http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=54.58504lon=13.60765zoom=16layers=0B00FTF
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Re: [Talk-de] Straßenverzeichnis Recklinghausen

2009-06-17 Per discussione Florian Lohoff

On Wed, Jun 17, 2009 at 04:22:28PM +0200, Tobias Wendorff wrote:
 Subject: [Talk-de] Straßenverzeichnis Recklinghausen
 
 Hallo Community,
 
 kann das bitte jemand an die Recklinghausener weiterleiten, falls die
 einen eigenen Talk haben?
 
 Das Amtliches Straßenverzeichnis der Stadt Recklinghausen gibt es als
 PDF für eine Gebühr über 4,50 EUR über susanne.schu...@recklinghausen.de

Recklinghausen hat sowohl eine Straßenreinigungssatzung wie auch 
Stimmbezirkszuordnungen
veroeffentlicht:

http://eservice.gkd-re.de/abo-online/Info/AGS05562032/3442EF8FD39C3D84AA61F13E8E76BC6F297C.pdf
http://www.recklinghausen.de/Buergerinformation/OrtsrechtSatzungen/Finanzen/FB_20_Anlage_zur_Satzung_der_Stadt_Recklinghausen_ueber_die_Strassenreinigung_und_die_Erhebung_von_Strassenreinigungsgebuehren_Strassenverzeichnis__.asp

Die habe ich verarbeitet und werte anhand dessen aus - Die zusammengefuehrte 
liste ist
das hier:

http://osm.gt.owl.de/Strassenliste/Recklinghausen/list.txt

Flo
-- 
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Those who would give up a little freedom to get a little 
  security shall soon have neither - Benjamin Franklin


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[Talk-de] Straßenlistenauswertung (update)

2009-06-17 Per discussione Florian Lohoff


Hi,
es hat sich wieder viel getan - da ich mir nicht wirklich aufschreibe was so 
dabei
kommt unterschlage ich bestimmt auch wieder einiges - Hier das was mir noch 
haengen
geblieben ist - Anfaenge einzelner Kreise - Ein paar Kreisfreie Staedte und
ansonsten viele einzelne Listen und einzelne Relation die noch jeweils auf
den Partner warten ... Bei existenten Relationen zeigt die Grafik zumindest
die dünnen grenzlinien ...

Nordrhein-Westfalen
Gemeinde/Stadt  Straßen In OSM  KomplettLetzte 
Auswertung
Mühlheim an der Ruhr 978 881 90.1%  2009-06-17 10:38
Gelsenkirchen   14661457 99.4%  2009-06-17 17:50
Duisburg22721593 70.1%  2009-06-17 10:29
Düsseldorf  27292588 94.8%  2009-06-17 10:19
Bochum  17731372 77.4%  2009-06-17 10:30
Bonn19081775 93.0%  2009-06-17 10:27
Wuppertal   19111258 65.8%  2009-06-17 10:18

Nordrhein-Westfalen/Kreis Düren
Gemeinde/Stadt  Straßen In OSM  KomplettLetzte Auswertung
Aldenhoven  171 131 76.6%   2009-06-17 18:10
Jülich  522 336 64.4%   2009-06-17 18:10
Linnich 250 158 63.2%   2009-06-17 18:11
Titz182 38  20.9%   2009-06-17 14:14

Nordrhein-Westfalen/Kreis Euskirchen
Gemeinde/Stadt  Straßen In OSM  KomplettLetzte Auswertung
Bad Münstereifel579 93  16.1%   2009-06-17 10:25
Blankenheim 323 120 37.2%   2009-06-17 10:20
Dahlem  168 86  51.2%   2009-06-17 10:22
Euskirchen  728 466 64.0%   2009-06-17 10:36
Hellenthal  188 37  19.7%   2009-06-17 10:12
Kall306 30  9.8%2009-06-17 10:20
Mechernich  175 83  47.4%   2009-06-17 18:09
Weilerswist 422 27  6.4%2009-06-17 10:44
Zülpich 421 102 24.2%   2009-06-17 10:22


Nordrhein-Westfalen/Kreis Heinsberg
Gemeinde/Stadt  Straßen In OSM  KomplettLetzte Auswertung
Erkelenz570 326 57.2%   2009-06-17 10:30
Geilenkirchen   472 128 27.1%   2009-06-17 10:20
Heinsberg   502 119 23.7%   2009-06-17 18:08
Hückelhoven 491 267 54.4%   2009-06-17 10:24
Selfkant190 60  31.6%   2009-06-17 10:21
Übach-Palenberg 324 281 86.7%   2009-06-17 10:23
Waldfeucht  104 12  11.5%   2009-06-17 18:11
Wassenberg  268 177 66.0%   2009-06-17 10:20
Wegberg 342 342 100.0%  2009-06-17 17:54

Nordrhein-Westfalen/Kreis Mettmann
Gemeinde/Stadt  Straßen In OSM  KomplettLetzte Auswertung
Ratingen702 475 67.7%   2009-06-17 10:38
Velbert 642 443 69.0%   2009-06-17 10:30


-- 
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Those who would give up a little freedom to get a little 
  security shall soon have neither - Benjamin Franklin


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Re: [Talk-de] Straßenverzeichnis Recklinghausen

2009-06-17 Per discussione Tobias Wendorff

Florian Lohoff schrieb:
 Die habe ich verarbeitet und werte anhand dessen aus - Die zusammengefuehrte 
 liste ist
 das hier:

[snip]

Kannst Du bitte bei der Gelegenheit die Spaces / Tabs aus der Werler
Liste rauswerfen? http://osm.gt.owl.de/Strassenliste/Werl/list.txt

Achja ... die Mellinstrasse heißt in Wirklichkeit Mellinstraße.
Fehler ist der Stadt bereits gemeldet und es wurde dafür gedankt :-)

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Re: [Talk-de] OSM für Gewässernutzer

Hallo Falk,

schön - noch ein Seefahrer!

 Kaikante: man_made=quay zusätzlich zu natural=coastline 

Das finde ich eine gute Idee.
Mit material=... kann man noch genauer spezifizieren:

natural=coastline
+ man_made=quai
+ material=concrete|masonry|boulder|tripode|steel|wood

Wenn der Kai zusätzlich als Schiffsanleger ausgebaut ist:

natural=coastline
+ man_made=quai
+ mooring=yes

Der Renderer kann dann den Anlegekai als etwas dickere Linie anzeigen.
Dadurch werden Anlegestellen in der Karte sichtbar (F 13).

 Auf Rügen wurden zum Teil auch Hafenmolen mit man_made=breakwater 
 bezeichnet[2]

In Lome gibt es drei lose Steinschüttungen als Wellenbrecher.

Diese Objektklasse ist in der INT-1 nicht vorgesehen.
Dort wird der Begriff breakwater für mehrere Objektklassen verwendet 
(Hafenmauer, Mole, freistehender Wellenbrecher, Buhne).

Wir verwenden breakwater engeschränkter:
Unterscheidungskriterium zur Mole ist die fehlende Verbindung zum Land.
Der Wellenbrecher bekommt also keine coastline.
Er vergrössert (normalerweise) auch nicht das Territorium.

Solche Wellenbrecher haben (meist) keine Anlegemöglichkeit.
Molen können eine Anlegemöglichkeit haben, müssen aber nicht.
Oft haben Molen nur auf einer Seite eine Anlegemöglichkeit.

 Mole: man_made=mole ? 

Auch das finde ich eine gute Idee.
Nach dem selben Muster:

natural=coastline
+ man_made=quai
+ material=concrete|masonry|boulder|tripode|steel|wood

und wenn Anlegestelle:

natural=coastline
+ man_made=quai
+ mooring=yes

Der Renderer kann dann den Anlegekai als etwas dickere Linie anzeigen.
Dadurch werden Anlegestellen in der Karte sichtbar (F 12).

Die Pier hingegen fehlt in der INT-1.
(nicht zu verwechseln mit pier/jetty von man_made=pier, entspr. F 14))
Dafür gibts keinen englischen eindeutigen Begriff.

Vielleicht hast Du ja eine gute Idee?

Gruss, Markus

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Re: [Talk-de] OSM für Gewässernutzer

Hallo Falk,

Kopierfehler...

Richtig ist:

 Mole: man_made=mole ? 

Auch das finde ich eine gute Idee.
Nach dem selben Muster:

natural=coastline
+ man_made=mole
+ material=concrete|masonry|boulder|tripode|steel|wood

und wenn Anlegestelle:

natural=coastline
+ man_made=mole
+ mooring=yes

Der Renderer kann dann die Anlegestelle als etwas dickere Linie 
anzeigen. Dadurch werden Anlegestellen in der Karte sichtbar (F 12).

Gruss, Markus


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Re: [Talk-de] Straßenverzeichnis Recklinghausen

2009-06-17 Per discussione Florian Lohoff

On Wed, Jun 17, 2009 at 07:37:53PM +0200, Tobias Wendorff wrote:
 Florian Lohoff schrieb:
 Die habe ich verarbeitet und werte anhand dessen aus - Die zusammengefuehrte 
 liste ist
 das hier:

 [snip]

 Kannst Du bitte bei der Gelegenheit die Spaces / Tabs aus der Werler
 Liste rauswerfen? http://osm.gt.owl.de/Strassenliste/Werl/list.txt

Sind multiple spaces - Ich habe hoffe ich habe alle erwischt ...

 Achja ... die Mellinstrasse heißt in Wirklichkeit Mellinstraße.
 Fehler ist der Stadt bereits gemeldet und es wurde dafür gedankt :-)

Korrigiert

Flo
-- 
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  security shall soon have neither - Benjamin Franklin


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Re: [Talk-de] Ortsnamen

2009-06-17 Per discussione Johannes Hüsing

Markus schrieb:
 Hallo Johannes,

   
 Lösungsansätze waren:
 http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/de:Anzeige_von_Städten 
   
 Die Tabelle ist zu groß, um sie im Wiki zu pflegen
 

 Ich kann Dir die Excel-Tabelle gern schicken.
   

Das ist sehr freundlich von Dir, aber wenig Wiki-gemäß. Wenn ich
einen Fehler feststelle, ist es lästig, erst von Dir die Tabelle
anzufordern.

Da bin ich auch eher Thomas' Ansicht: Einfacher halten und sich
mit Einwohnerzahlen zufriedengeben, das skaliert auch für
weniger bewohnte Gegenden. Dürfen wir einfach so die
Einwohnerzahl übernehmen?

 Mit einem VBA-Makro kannst Du daraus nach den Änderungen eine wikitable 
 erzeugen und diese wieder hochladen: 
 http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Textverarbeitung/EXCEL-Tabellenumwandlung

 Noch besser wäre natürlich, wenn jemand die Renderer so programmieren 
 könnte, dass sie diese (oder eine ähnliche) Tabelle berücksichtigen.

   
Man kann so etwas Ähnliches wie die Dominanz von Bergen
analog für Städte ausrechnen, wenn man die berücksichtigt,
bekommt man was Brauchbares, denke ich (also erreicht, dass
Kassel auf fast jeder Deutschlandkarte ist).



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Re: [Talk-de] Proposal: access-Tags mit Bedingungen

2009-06-17 Per discussione Guenther Meyer

Am Mittwoch 17 Juni 2009 schrieb Tobias Knerr:
 Guenther Meyer schrieb:
  alle verbotszeichen die ich kenne, und jemals gesehen habe, und mit
  gewichten zu tun haben, sprechn von gewichten über dem angegeben wert.
  genau so bei laengen-, breiten, und hoehenbeschraenkungen.
  wenn also sowieso immer die rede von groesser ist, kann man das zeichen
  auch weglassen.

 Man lässt das Zeichen aber nicht nur weg. Man ersetzt es durch ein
 anderes, das weder schneller zu tippen noch kürzer ist und auch sonst
 keine Vorteile bringt. Bei zwei ansonsten gleichwertigen Zeichen ist
 auch eine noch so kleine Verbesserung der Eindeutigkeit genug, um den
 Ausschlag zu geben, oder?

prinzipiell schon.
bei laengen/hoehen/breiten machts keine unterschied, da length/width/height 
sowieso angegeben werden muss.

aber wie bereits geschrieben, ist bei gewichtsangaben das zulaessige 
gesamtgewicht der standardfall, und da sehe ich durchaus eine vereinfachung:
access[weight5.5t]=no -- access[5.5t]=no

aber wenn's nicht gefaellt, hab ich auch kein problem damit.

 Na ja, nachdem sich hier wohl sonst niemand mehr zu Wort melden wird,
 habe ich mal eine Komplettversion aus den Einzelbestandteilen der
 bisherigen Proposals erstellt und einen Poll zur Klammersyntax eingestellt.

 http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Extended_conditions_fo
r_access_tags

 Passt das so (außer dem Diskussionspunkt mit den Attributen/Operatoren
 und der opening_hours-Syntax? Ggf. gerne noch was ändern, gerade an der
 Begründung/Argumentation im Syntax-Abschnitt.

sieht gut aus.

zwei dinge:
erstens wuerde ich die uhrzeit prinzipiell ohne doppelpunkte schreiben,
und zweitens generell eine einheit angeben, also t fuer gewichte, m fuer 
laengen/hoehen/breiten, und h fuer uhrzeiten.






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Re: [Talk-de] Ortsnamen