date:20110610

 Richard Fairhurst said:
 The problem with these fast-moving mailing lists is that I get
halfway through a reply to Graham's e-mail, go to the pub..

My emails often have that effect :)
That raises the question of why on earth we're still using
cliquey semi-private email lists when we could be using nice open
public forums with categories, threaded discussions, formatting
and voting - but that is a discussion for another day. ;)

 Worcester is nominally complete; yet despite the assurances
of people in this thread that completeness will bring more
mappers, Worcester has just one mapper, Steve, who was active
anyway before OSSV came along. Does that not make you stop and
think?

So again you are basically arguing that we should avoid
completing the map because having a patchy incomplete map is what
brings in contributors?
Even if that were true, it is not exactly a sustainable approach.

Personally I'd rather people were drawn in by saying Wow, what a
great map! I want to join in and add my local
library/school/house than This map is terrible. It doesn't have
half the roads in my village.

 Bob Kerr said:
 Using a bot to replace large sections of data in the UK is
going to be counterproductive or destructive

Just to be clear: no one is suggesting using the OS bot we are
discussing to replace or destroy any existing data.
I think we all agree that would be a very bad idea and as already
stated the wiki is very clear about the circumstances under which
it would add a name tag to a road.

 the UK is now 80% (road name)complete.

Terrible news, as apparently the community will grind to a
stuttering halt if we make it to 100%  :)

Seriously though, by the OS Locator comparison we still have
179,568 missing road names (many of which will also be missing
roads) and we're plodding through them at around 11,176 a month
(and falling). So even a generous guesstimate suggests we won't
be nearing 100% for well over a year.  Anything that helps with
this task, especially in areas with no active mapping, is welcome
by me.

 I believe we can both encourage people to join us and use the a
bot on small areas at the same time.

Agreed. It's just another tool we can use - nothing more.
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Re: [Talk-GB] Onward travel posters

Richard Mann wrote:
 Saw a new Onward Travel Poster at Oxford. Nice map. Presumably 
 a similar one at most other railway stations. Lots of detail, 
 including some footpaths that have a very familar shape...

 Nice attribution. To OS.

Yes. This is supposedly a national initiative, but I've only seen them at
FGW stations so far (have looked for others); and all those I've seen, at
FGW stations from the Cotswold Line to Cornwall, have clearly had OSM data
though attributed to OS. I think Nick W said he'd spotted one at his local
station too.

cheers
Richard



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Re: [Talk-GB] Onward travel posters

2011-06-10 Per discussione Tom Hughes


On 10/06/11 10:04, Richard Mann wrote:

Saw a new Onward Travel Poster at Oxford. Nice map. Presumably a
similar one at most other railway stations. Lots of detail, including
some footpaths that have a very familar shape...

Nice attribution. To OS.

I'll try emailing one Jason Durk, Head of Passenger Info at NRE...


Sounds similar to the one RichardF saw at Charlbury a while back...

Tom

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Re: [Talk-GB] OSM Analysis New Data and bot

Graham Stewart wrote:
 So again you are basically arguing that we should avoid
 completing the map because having a patchy incomplete map is 
 what brings in contributors?

No, I'm not.

I'm arguing that completing the map by survey creates a community who will
go on to improve and maintain the map.

Completing the map by import doesn't create a community.

Again, contrast UK/Germany and US. Surveying, not importing, is the
sustainable approach.

cheers
Richard



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Re: [Talk-GB] OSM Analysis New Data and bot

2011-06-10 Per discussione Adam Hoyle

Sorry in advance - after writing this I've realised I'm possibly heading off on 
a tangent (I do that).

Speaking of the awesomeness of Cycle Map and how that encourages people - I 
really want an openwalkingtothepubmap, which would basically be a clone of the 
gorgeous cycle map, but with the coloured cycle routes removed in favour of 
coloured paths and also pubs visible when quite zoomed out (and prolly post 
boxes too, but that is probably particularly niche).

I'm starting to realise that I might need to roll up my sleeves and do this 
myself.

Every now and then I try to install Mapnik on my Mac, and mostly fail, but I 
tried t'other day and it worked, so I'm wondering where the various styles that 
are used on OSM are kept (or even if they are actually available for derivative 
use) - I'm most keen on cyclemap or something that has gradients, cos as a 
walker I'm quite interested in whether I am about to walk over a massive hill 
or not.

Can anyone point me in the right direction?

All the best,

Adam

On 10 Jun 2011, at 09:35, Bob Kerr wrote:

 I agree with Andy about increasing the number of mappers is essential. With 
 Cycle map he has increased the interest in the cycling communities. Getting 
 interest and publicity is very difficult. I can see many other communities 
 that we could encourage to start helping us, from NHS to golfers but we have 
 no organised way of doing this at the moment. Using a bot to replace large 
 sections of data in the UK is going to be counterproductive or destructive, 
 especially as the UK is now 80% (road name)complete.  However restricting a 
 bot by area to the size of small villages may help. I believe we can both 
 encourage people to join us and use the a bot on small areas at the same time.
 
 Cheers
 
 bob
 
 
 From: Andy Allan gravityst...@gmail.com
 To: sk53_...@yahoo.co.uk
 Cc: talk-gb@openstreetmap.org
 Sent: Thursday, 9 June 2011, 16:45
 Subject: Re: [Talk-GB] OSM Analysis New Data and bot
 
 On Thu, Jun 9, 2011 at 3:42 PM, Jerry Clough : SK53 on OSM
 sk53_...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
 
  In order to get  a better level of completeness in the UK what we need are
  more mappers.
 
 Absolutely.
 
 Everything we do should be focussed on helping get more mappers, or
 helping the mappers we have get their jobs done more easily.
 Everything that is a direct substitute for having more mappers is, at
 best, a distraction from (what I see as) the desired goal. If we have
 mappers, and lots of them, then - as we've now demonstrated - we can
 get a glorious dataset.
 
 Note that not everyone here shares the same goals - some people are
 focussed on the data, others on the community. It might be worth
 examining why we (collectively) have a tendency to discuss the data
 all the time and I see very few discussions on community matters.
 
 I find in most conversations, if the answer is because we don't have
 enough mappers yet then the solution is not to bypass them with some
 form of automation but to get more of them. Unfortunately to most
 OSMers, community building seems hard (which it is), and writing bots
 or doing imports seems easy (which it's not).
 
  A bot is putting short-term gain ahead of our long-term interests.
 
 Indeed. What's more, all the effort that goes into writing bots,
 discussing them, justifying them etc is time that hasn't gone into the
 primary goal of recruiting and helping more people to OSM.
 
 Cheers,
 Andy
 
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[Talk-GB] OSM Analysis: highlighting missing roads over those without a name


Peter (et al),

I think everyone agrees that the OSM Analysis Summary (
http://www.itoworld.com/product/data/osm_analysis/main ) is extremely
useful for gauging our efforts and highlighting areas that need work -
even if there is clearly some disagreement about how we then use the OS
data on the map.

I was just idly wondering if we could also use a similar comparison to
indicate the number of roads listed in OS Locator that apparently have
NO corresponding way drawn in OSM?
(i.e. not just no way present with a matching name, but no way that
comes remotely close to matching the Locator bounding box, regardless of
name)

This might help identify any areas that remain completely unmapped and
allow contributors (survey-purists and armchair-tracers alike) to focus
their efforts.

Graham

PS (obviously VectorMap might be a more useful comparison, but I figure
you already have the OS Locator comparison algorithm written so it
hopefully wouldn't be such a big change)

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[Talk-GB] Can't log in - is it just me?

2011-06-10 Per discussione Simon Blake

This morning my login credentials are being rejected, and I can't log in to
www.streetmap.org.   And, when trying the forgot your password option, I'm
told my email address isn't recognized.

So, is there a problem, or is it just me?

Regards

Simon
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Re: [Talk-GB] Onward travel posters

2011-06-10 Per discussione Nick Whitelegg

Though having re-read your post, the incorrect attribution is really bad. Don't 
think my local one had that otherwise I'd have probably noticed but will check 
next time I'm there.

Nick

-Nick Whitelegg/FT/Solent wrote: -
To: talk-gb@openstreetmap.org
From: Nick Whitelegg/FT/Solent
Date: 10/06/2011 10:47AM
Subject: Re: [Talk-GB] Onward travel posters

Same for Mottisfont and Dunbridge - Hampshire though not 100% sure. The 
possible giveaway is a permissive path on OSM but not on OS. TBH though my 
initial thought was that of flattery :-)

Nick

-Richard Mann richard.mann.westoxf...@gmail.com wrote: -
To: talk-gb OSM List (E-mail) talk-gb@openstreetmap.org
From: Richard Mann richard.mann.westoxf...@gmail.com
Date: 10/06/2011 10:05AM
Subject: [Talk-GB] Onward travel posters

Saw a new Onward Travel Poster at Oxford. Nice map. Presumably a
similar one at most other railway stations. Lots of detail, including
some footpaths that have a very familar shape...

Nice attribution. To OS.

I'll try emailing one Jason Durk, Head of Passenger Info at NRE...

Richard

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Re: [Talk-GB] Can't log in - is it just me?

2011-06-10 Per discussione Tom Hughes


On 10/06/11 10:49, Simon Blake wrote:


This morning my login credentials are being rejected, and I can't log in
to www.streetmap.org http://www.streetmap.org.   And, when trying the
forgot your password option, I'm told my email address isn't recognized.


Well firstly that's not our domain ;-)

Secondly, assuming that you actually used the right domain, then what is 
the email address or username involved, as I can't see any account under 
the gmail address you sent your mail from.


Tom

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Re: [Talk-GB] Customised Maps (was OSM Analysis New Data and bot)

Graham Jones wrote:
 setting up mapnik and all its dependencies is quite daunting

This week I've seen something that gives near-Mapnik quality rendering with,
hopefully, near-trivial installation, configuration and system demands. I
think one comment on IRC was zomg which succinctly sums it up.

I won't post the details here yet as hopefully the authors will be
announcing something soon, but I'd just say that if you're a n00b at map
rendering, you might want to hold off on learning Mapnik for now.

(Mapnik is, of course, still amazing and unchallenged for serious heavy-duty
rendering.)

cheers
Richard



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Re: [Talk-GB] Onward travel posters

2011-06-10 Per discussione Ed Loach

Richard wrote:

 It is being followed up with their suppliers, and will be
 corrected...

I can imagine the little M stickers being printed now...

Ed


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Re: [Talk-GB] OSM Analysis: highlighting missing roads over those without a name

2011-06-10 Per discussione Derick Rethans

On Fri, 10 Jun 2011, Graham Stewart wrote:

 I think everyone agrees that the OSM Analysis Summary (
 http://www.itoworld.com/product/data/osm_analysis/main ) is extremely
 useful for gauging our efforts and highlighting areas that need work -
 even if there is clearly some disagreement about how we then use the OS
 data on the map.
 
 I was just idly wondering if we could also use a similar comparison to
 indicate the number of roads listed in OS Locator that apparently have
 NO corresponding way drawn in OSM?

I am pretty sure it already does that. See Back Crossflats Place at 
http://www.itoworld.com/product/data/osm_analysis/map_browser?bbox=428720.776042,430663.227344,429071.990104,430878.696094layers=os_locatorbase_style=white,%20aa_2clear_map_history=truereferrer=area

regards,
Derick

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Re: [Talk-GB] OSM Analysis New Data and bot


 I'm arguing that completing the map by survey creates a community who
 will go on to improve and maintain the map.

This is no doubt true. 
But surely having an area that has been *surveyed* to 100% road name
completion is just as likely to put off any new contributors as one that
was *traced* to 100%?
(i.e. not very in my opinion)

Also I think we're looking at this from two different perspectives. If
you're near Birmingham where you have a nearly one million residents who
might join in on a local community. Doing it the hard way to build a
community spirit might work there.

I'm in a rural Northumberland with a local population of 3000. Many of
the back roads have hardly any traffic and I've barely seen a handful of
edits in my local area since I joined OSM a year ago. If we insist on
doing it the hard way round here then don't expect road completion for a
decade or two.

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Re: [Talk-GB] Onward travel posters

Just to say that ITO have been working for some time now with a 3rd
party to create such onward travel posters for GB railway stations. We
provided them with the option to use either OSM or OS data for each
location at their discretion purely on merit. Clearly we are
disappointed that the wrong attribution has been applied to the
posters, if indeed that is what has happened and will work with our
client to get the situation resolved asap.

We will provide an update to this list later today.


Regards,


Peter Miller
ITO World Ltd


On 10 June 2011 11:04, Ed Loach e...@loach.me.uk wrote:
 Richard wrote:

 It is being followed up with their suppliers, and will be
 corrected...

 I can imagine the little M stickers being printed now...

 Ed


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Re: [Talk-GB] OSM Analysis updated with new OS Locator data and a review of progress to date

2011-06-10 Per discussione Chris Jones

On 08/06/11 07:58, Peter Miller wrote:
 Warwickshire is the biggest gainer/looser with 33 new names; over half
 of the districts have got at least one new road and there are now only
 8 places still at 100%. We do  have 51 at over 99% and only 32 at
 under 50%. There is serious work in Wales, parts of Scotland, the West
 Midlands and Norfolk at present and in other places as well.

Hi

I've taken a look at a few towns in mid/south Wales using musical chairs.

It seems that many of the listed 'no matches' are because the OS Locator
data lists the Welsh Name for the street and when mapped the English
name was used in the name tag. Often the welsh name is there too but in
the 'name:cy' tag.

Would it be possible to include 'name:cy' (and also 'name:gd' for
Scotland) in your algorithm?

Thanks!

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Re: [Talk-GB] OSM Analysis New Data and bot


Graham Stewart wrote:

This is no doubt true.
But surely having an area that has been *surveyed* to 100% road name
completion is just as likely to put off any new contributors as one that
was *traced* to 100%?
(i.e. not very in my opinion)


I don't think so. Again, the difference is that you're reaching 100% 
with the involvement of numerous people, rather than 100% with the 
involvement of one importer. And when you have that vibrant community, 
it's self-sustaining. People leave and people come. OSM at national 
level is a good example of this.



Also I think we're looking at this from two different perspectives. If
you're near Birmingham where you have a nearly one million residents who
might join in on a local community. Doing it the hard way to build a
community spirit might work there.

I'm in a rural Northumberland with a local population of 3000.


Yet I'm nowhere near Birmingham. I'm in the rural Cotswolds with a local 
population of 3000. I used to live in rural Rutland with a local 
population of 150. Both areas are mapped, excellently, by survey - and 
largely not by me either!


 Many of the back roads have hardly any traffic and I've barely seen a
 handful of edits in my local area since I joined OSM a year ago.

Great shame. So - recruit some more mappers. Write better tools to help 
the people who show up nearby on your user page, yet who haven't edited yet.


cheers
Richard


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Re: [Talk-GB] OSM Analysis updated with new OS Locator data and a review of progress to date

On 10 June 2011 11:20, Chris Jones roller...@sucs.org wrote:
 On 08/06/11 07:58, Peter Miller wrote:
 Warwickshire is the biggest gainer/looser with 33 new names; over half
 of the districts have got at least one new road and there are now only
 8 places still at 100%. We do  have 51 at over 99% and only 32 at
 under 50%. There is serious work in Wales, parts of Scotland, the West
 Midlands and Norfolk at present and in other places as well.

 Hi

 I've taken a look at a few towns in mid/south Wales using musical chairs.

 It seems that many of the listed 'no matches' are because the OS Locator
 data lists the Welsh Name for the street and when mapped the English
 name was used in the name tag. Often the welsh name is there too but in
 the 'name:cy' tag.

 Would it be possible to include 'name:cy' (and also 'name:gd' for
 Scotland) in your algorithm?

Sorry. I don't understand exactly what you mean. Is this OSM Analysis
or 'ITO Map source:name' that you are referring to? If it is OSM
Analysis then could you spell out what exactly you want us to be doing
that we are not doing?

I also realise now that ITO Map source names should probably recognise
 'name:cy' and 'name:gd' and also 'source:name:cy' and
'source:name:gd'. Will take a look at that soon.



Regards,

Peter


 Thanks!

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Re: [Talk-GB] OSM Analysis: highlighting missing roads over those without a name


 I am pretty sure it already does that. See Back Crossflats Place at 

Yep, so I'd like to see that kind of mismatch (where OS Locator says
there is a street called Back Crossflats Place and OSM doesn't have
any way of any name at that location) presented in a separate list or
perhaps in a different map layer to differentiate it from the ways that
are present in OSM but are either unnamed or disagree on the name.

That would highlight areas that are badly in need of the most basic road
mapping over those that may have a comparatively good street map with
all the roads present but are just missing lots of names. 

End users of the map are much more likely to be put off by missing roads
than missing road names.

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Re: [Talk-GB] Onward travel posters

Ed Loach wrote:
 I can imagine the little M stickers being printed now...

For those curious as to what these maps look like, here's one I photographed
last week:
 http://www.systemeD.net/temp/onward_travel_falmouth.jpg
(4.6Mb file)

Compare and contrast with http://osm.org/go/erU5Lvdkm- .

cheers
Richard



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Re: [Talk-GB] OSM Analysis: highlighting missing roads over those without a name

On 10 June 2011 11:30, Graham Stewart gra...@dalmuti.net wrote:

 I am pretty sure it already does that. See Back Crossflats Place at

 Yep, so I'd like to see that kind of mismatch (where OS Locator says
 there is a street called Back Crossflats Place and OSM doesn't have
 any way of any name at that location) presented in a separate list or
 perhaps in a different map layer to differentiate it from the ways that
 are present in OSM but are either unnamed or disagree on the name.

 That would highlight areas that are badly in need of the most basic road
 mapping over those that may have a comparatively good street map with
 all the roads present but are just missing lots of names.

We are working on some functionality that would allow us to compare
highway vectors in OSM with highway vectors from OS Vector District. I
can't give you any estimate of when it will turn up, it might be soon
or might not be for a month or more. Sorry I can't be definite but it
just depends on when we can a chance to sneek in a few hours work on
it.

Thanks for the suggestion which certainly will move it up our priority stack.

Regards,


Peter Miller
ITO World Ltd

 End users of the map are much more likely to be put off by missing roads
 than missing road names.


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Re: [Talk-GB] OSM Analysis: highlighting missing roads over those without a name

2011-06-10 Per discussione Derick Rethans

On Fri, 10 Jun 2011, Graham Stewart wrote:

 End users of the map are much more likely to be put off by missing roads
 than missing road names.

That is something I agree with. And it's also a lot easier to get 
somebody to add a name, or go through the trouble of adding a whole new 
complicated way. Maybe a simple editor for this could be useful too...

It would be really useful to have not only a nice map like the ITO 
analysis showing places, but also be able to get this data out as a feed 
in some form. Would that be difficult?

But I'd still rather see that people actually survey too :-)

Derick

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Re: [Talk-GB] Onward travel posters

2011-06-10 Per discussione Craig Loftus

 For those curious as to what these maps look like, here's one I photographed
 last week:
 http://www.systemeD.net/temp/onward_travel_falmouth.jpg
 (4.6Mb file)

Thanks, I was curious. I was tempted to stroll to the station at lunch
to find my local one, but it is raining now :(

The rather broken rendering of the pedestrian area in the top left of
the Local area map is interesting; it sells OSM short.

Also, it looks like they're using another source for the bus stop data
(stop A is on the other side of the footpath). I'm assuming each map
is edited by someone with local knowledge? ;) So it is a shame that
improvements are contributed back to OSM.

Cheers,
Craig

On 10 June 2011 11:31, Richard Fairhurst rich...@systemed.net wrote:
 Ed Loach wrote:
 I can imagine the little M stickers being printed now...

 For those curious as to what these maps look like, here's one I photographed
 last week:
     http://www.systemeD.net/temp/onward_travel_falmouth.jpg
 (4.6Mb file)

 Compare and contrast with http://osm.org/go/erU5Lvdkm- .

 cheers
 Richard



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Re: [Talk-GB] Onward travel posters

On 10 June 2011 11:31, Richard Fairhurst rich...@systemed.net wrote:
 Ed Loach wrote:
 I can imagine the little M stickers being printed now...

 For those curious as to what these maps look like, here's one I photographed
 last week:
     http://www.systemeD.net/temp/onward_travel_falmouth.jpg
 (4.6Mb file)


There is no doubt now that these are the onward travel posters that we
have been working with a 3rd party on. The only question now is how to
correct the situation which is something we are currently working with
our client to establish.

I am sure you are aware of the importance that ITO attach to getting
the attribution of OpenStreetMap mapping right and are disappointed
that something has gone amiss this time.

There is also the question as to how recent the OSM mapping is and
whether the bus stops were taken from OSM or direct from NaPTAN. We
will give a fuller debrief in due course.


Regards,



Peter Miller
ITO World Ltd


 Compare and contrast with http://osm.org/go/erU5Lvdkm- .

 cheers
 Richard



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Re: [Talk-GB] OSM Analysis New Data and bot


 Great shame. So - recruit some more mappers. Write better tools to help 
 the people who show up nearby on your user page, yet who haven't edited
 yet.

You've got me there. 
Of the 30 nearby people on my user page, 20 have never made any edit.
Only 3 have edited in the past 6 months and few of those were local.

Sadly recruiting people and writing tools comes down to available spare
time and I have precious little.

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Re: [Talk-GB] Onward travel posters

2011-06-10 Per discussione Peter J Stoner

In message 1307701901374-6461640.p...@n2.nabble.com
  Richard Fairhurst rich...@systemed.net wrote:

 Ed Loach wrote:
 I can imagine the little M stickers being printed now...

 For those curious as to what these maps look like, here's one I photographed
 last week:
  http://www.systemeD.net/temp/onward_travel_falmouth.jpg
 (4.6Mb file)

 Compare and contrast with http://osm.org/go/erU5Lvdkm- .

Richard

Thank you for the photo.  It is the first of the new posters I have 
seen so it has helped me to check the Traveline and NextBuses 
references!

This use of OSM shows the value of the footpaths to public transport 
information and the great work done by those who survey...  but more 
use like this does need to have most of the roads on to be credible.

As an OSM mapper myself I press on trying to complete the road network 
in my area to improve this credibility but I would prefer to use my 
time adding detail that is not on the other maps or amending imported 
data sources where I can see that improvement is necessary.

Best wishes


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Re: [Talk-GB] OSM Analysis New Data and bot

2011-06-10 Per discussione SteveC

Or as close to it as possible, yes. I don't care what the result is, it's just 
too fashionable to automatically believe the imports are bad thing.

Steve

stevecoast.com

On Jun 10, 2011, at 7:05, Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org wrote:

 Hi,
 
 On 06/09/11 18:01, SteveC wrote:
 I know it's fashionable to claim imports are bad, what I seek is actual data.
 
 As in, A comparative study of the development of the OSM community in X in 
 the standard universe where data has been imported, and in parallel universe 
 P281/304-II where all other factors are unchanged but no data has been 
 imported?
 
 Bye
 Frederik
 
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Re: [Talk-GB] OSM Analysis New Data and bot

2011-06-10 Per discussione SteveC

There are tons of things. People drive in the US so pubs are difficult to
arrange things around. Mapping in the US is boring because of the big gridded
cities. I map much less in the US than the UK. It's not just that there are
roads there already, which by the way is a good thing because I have sat for
hours correcting them against aerial.

It's just not that simple to say imports killed it.

Steve

stevecoast.com

On Jun 10, 2011, at 8:15, Richard Fairhurst rich...@systemed.net wrote:

Frederik Ramm wrote:
As in, A comparative study of the development of the OSM community
in X in the standard universe where data has been imported,
and in parallel universe P281/304-II where all other factors are
unchanged but no data has been imported?

I'm sure Muki's working on it. ;)

My contention is that the US community is still struggling with such basic
issues because it didn't have the shared experience of creating a map from
scratch, whereas the UK and Germany, largely import-free, have strong
communities built out of this experience.

This might be wrong, and if the US's problems spring from something other
than the big import, I'd be very interested to know what. The old canard of
but the US is so _big_ doesn't count :)
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sovereign_states_and_dependent_territories_by_population_density).

cheers
Richard

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Re: [Talk-GB] Onward travel posters

Peter J Stoner wrote:
 Thank you for the photo.  It is the first of the new posters I 
 have seen so it has helped me to check the Traveline and 
 NextBuses references!

:) They're good posters, I like them (though the cartography is a bit...
utilitarian, shall we say?).

 This use of OSM shows the value of the footpaths to public 
 transport information and the great work done by those who survey...  
 but more use like this does need to have most of the roads on to be 
 credible.

At the risk of stating the blindingly obvious, it is possible to make maps
out of OS OpenData without importing it into OSM first!

At the risk of stating the
slightly-less-blindingly-but-still-with-severe-dangers-to-your-sight
obvious, you can combine OS OpenData with OSM footpaths, and get the best of
both worlds. Hard (though not impossible) for routing, but trivial for
cartography. Luke Smith at Grough has done this to staggeringly good effect:

 http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-gb/2011-March/011105.html
 http://www.grough.co.uk/lib/documents/tmp/lss/tq28.jpg
 http://www.grough.co.uk/lib/documents/tmp/lss/nn17.jpg

cheers
Richard



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Re: [Talk-GB] Housing Development Names

Kev js1982 osm@... writes:

The current tagging is
is_in:Gamston, West Bridgford
place:suburb
name:Knightshayes
landuse:residential

I would suggest removing place=suburb but leaving the name tag.  Then it gets
a reasonably tasteful and low-key rendering in the both the OSM Mapnik tiles
and the cycle map.  This is not merely tagging for the renderer, since the
place is not really a 'suburb' if I understand you correctly.

-- 
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Re: [Talk-GB] Onward travel posters

2011-06-10 Per discussione Richard Mann

I'm sure that's still missing a few paths off Nevis, mind. (Gorgeous though)

On Fri, Jun 10, 2011 at 12:36 PM, Richard Fairhurst
rich...@systemed.net wrote:
 Peter J Stoner wrote:
 Thank you for the photo.  It is the first of the new posters I
 have seen so it has helped me to check the Traveline and
 NextBuses references!

 :) They're good posters, I like them (though the cartography is a bit...
 utilitarian, shall we say?).

 This use of OSM shows the value of the footpaths to public
 transport information and the great work done by those who survey...
 but more use like this does need to have most of the roads on to be
 credible.

 At the risk of stating the blindingly obvious, it is possible to make maps
 out of OS OpenData without importing it into OSM first!

 At the risk of stating the
 slightly-less-blindingly-but-still-with-severe-dangers-to-your-sight
 obvious, you can combine OS OpenData with OSM footpaths, and get the best of
 both worlds. Hard (though not impossible) for routing, but trivial for
 cartography. Luke Smith at Grough has done this to staggeringly good effect:

     http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-gb/2011-March/011105.html
     http://www.grough.co.uk/lib/documents/tmp/lss/tq28.jpg
     http://www.grough.co.uk/lib/documents/tmp/lss/nn17.jpg

 cheers
 Richard



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Re: [Talk-GB] Onward travel posters

2011-06-10 Per discussione Matt Williams

On 10 June 2011 12:50, Peter Miller peter.mil...@itoworld.com wrote:
 On 10 June 2011 11:31, Richard Fairhurst rich...@systemed.net wrote:
 Ed Loach wrote:
 I can imagine the little M stickers being printed now...

 For those curious as to what these maps look like, here's one I photographed
 last week:
     http://www.systemeD.net/temp/onward_travel_falmouth.jpg
 (4.6Mb file)

 There is also the question as to how recent the OSM mapping is and
 whether the bus stops were taken from OSM or direct from NaPTAN. We
 will give a fuller debrief in due course.

From Richard's map, I'd say that the OSM data is at least a year old
since this (http://www.openstreetmap.org/?way=73100232) footpath isn't
present on the printed map yet was added in August 2010
(http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/73100232/history).

-- 
Matt Williams
http://milliams.com

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Re: [Talk-GB] OSM Analysis New Data and bot

Richard Fairhurst richard@... writes:

Worcester is nominally complete; yet despite the assurances of
people in this thread that completeness will bring more mappers,
Worcester has just one mapper, Steve, who was active anyway before
OSSV came along.

I would not claim that completing one particular town will have a
significant effect on the number of OSM users and hence the number of
contributors.  It is positive, but what really matters is improving
the 'worst-case performance' of OSM nationally.  If you pick some
metric such as ITO's OS Locator comparison (for want of a better
metric), then I contend that what matters for OSM adoption is not the
places at the top of the list but the one at the very bottom.  If we
can improve the worst place in the country from 35% completion to 90%,
OSM use will greatly increase and so will the pool of contributors.

I appreciate that this is not directly testable except by doing it.
As SteveC noted, most claims about imports require a parallel universe
to check.

When the area near my house in East London became complete (from
survey and Yahoo; this was before the days of OS) then the number of
local mappers *decreased*.  Of course, because the area was pretty
much done, I concentrated my mapping trips on places further afield.
If having an area complete means that a contributor can spend his or
her time on other parts of the map which also need attention, that
must be a good thing.

--
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Re: [Talk-GB] Onward travel posters

2011-06-10 Per discussione Peter J Stoner

In message 1307705780225-6461826.p...@n2.nabble.com
  Richard Fairhurst rich...@systemed.net wrote:

 Peter J Stoner wrote:
 Thank you for the photo.  It is the first of the new posters I
 have seen so it has helped me to check the Traveline and
 NextBuses references!

:) They're good posters, I like them (though the cartography is a bit...
 utilitarian, shall we say?).

 This use of OSM shows the value of the footpaths to public
 transport information and the great work done by those who survey...
 but more use like this does need to have most of the roads on to be
 credible.

 At the risk of stating the blindingly obvious, it is possible to make maps
 out of OS OpenData without importing it into OSM first!

 At the risk of stating the
 slightly-less-blindingly-but-still-with-severe-dangers-to-your-sight
 obvious, you can combine OS OpenData with OSM footpaths, and get the best of
 both worlds. Hard (though not impossible) for routing, but trivial for
 cartography. Luke Smith at Grough has done this to staggeringly good effect:

  http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-gb/2011-March/011105.html
  http://www.grough.co.uk/lib/documents/tmp/lss/tq28.jpg
  http://www.grough.co.uk/lib/documents/tmp/lss/nn17.jpg

I hope my eyesight is not quite as bad as you suggest.  Good as the 
examples are, I would not want to lose the changes that OSM have made 
to the road network.  It is useful to be able to get road details 
right that affect public transport.



-- 
Peter J Stoner
UK coordinator
Traveline

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Re: [Talk-GB] OSM Analysis New Data and bot

Richard Fairhurst richard@... writes:

This is no doubt true.
But surely having an area that has been *surveyed* to 100% road name
completion is just as likely to put off any new contributors as one that
was *traced* to 100%?

I don't think so. Again, the difference is that you're reaching 100% 
with the involvement of numerous people, rather than 100% with the 
involvement of one importer. And when you have that vibrant community, 
it's self-sustaining.

I think we all agree that reaching 100% completeness with a collection of people
doing diverse surveying methods (and even aerial tracing) is much better than
reaching 90% completeness by importing.  (The OS data is not 100% complete so it
can never take us all the way to 100%, except by the limited metric of comparing
ourselves to OS.)

But you are leaving out the third possibility which is an area stuck at 40%
completion, which doesn't have a vibrant community either.

-- 
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Re: [Talk-GB] OSM Analysis New Data and bot

2011-06-10 Per discussione SomeoneElse


On 10/06/2011 13:17, Ed Avis wrote:

Richard Fairhurstrichard@...  writes:


This is no doubt true.
But surely having an area that has been *surveyed* to 100% road name
completion is just as likely to put off any new contributors as one that
was *traced* to 100%?

...
I think we all agree that reaching 100% completeness with a collection 
of people

doing diverse surveying methods (and even aerial tracing) is much better than
reaching 90% completeness by importing.

...

Grr.  100% road name completion has become in this thread 100% 
completeness.  There already exists one source of 100% OS-compatible 
maps - the OS itself.  Why we need another one is unclear to me.


BTW sorry Ed - I'm not attacking you directly - it's just that the 
general thrust in some of the mails here seems to be that mapping the 
names of roads is all that matters.  I'm sure that that's not what you 
meant (but I suspect that it is true for some of the people tracing 
blindly from OSSV) - it's just that your posting was the most obvious 
one to reply to.


Cheers,
Andy


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Re: [Talk-GB] OSM Analysis New Data and bot

2011-06-10 Per discussione Ed Loach

Someone else wrote:

 Grr.  100% road name completion has become in this thread 100%
 completeness.  

Which of course is completely different. Taking just one metric
(.osm file size), I extracted the highways from the current Tendring
district (road and name complete) .osm extract file I have here and
the highways account for just 7.5% of the full extract. And there
are still lots of landuse areas and houses to add.

(I only thought to try this as I found myself surprised that the
Tendring.osm extract has grown 5% since April with only about 3
newly built roads added in that time, so most of it is down to
address information and houses being added).

There are issues with traced roads, perhaps more so from StreetView
than from Bing (depending on image quality) - I've seen a number of
Skobbler/MapDust bugs from outside this area (where some tracing had
been done - I forget where now, but somewhere I was visiting so I
had it open in Potlatch 2) where the report is wrong way down a one
way street. In some cases you can make out road markings in bing
which might confirm such a report, but unless people are monitoring
every area where they trace for such reports they won't get picked
up, and might still need a visit to verify if they are picked up.
Turn restrictions are another report where you are unlikely to be
able to make out the no right turns from above, and need a visit to
confirm (one that annoys me is missing roundabout - I usually have
to visit to check only to find it is a false report).

I have traced some roads, but always add a source tag so I can see
they still need visiting, much as I did when I started mapping when
source was NPE. As far as I know I've restricted that to areas where
I used to live, work, or regularly visit though, so have some local
knowledge. Similarly OS Locator names, and am trying again to visit
any such roads over time to remove those tags (which I notice I'm
not perfect at doing thanks to an ITO overlay mentioned here
recently - e.g. one road I've collected all the house numbers and
other details during a survey, but forgot to remove the source tag;
another road was where I later spent a day on a training course, and
again the name is right but I've not removed the source now I've
verified it).

Ed (Loach, not Avis)


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Re: [Talk-GB] OSM Analysis New Data and bot

Ed Avis wrote:
 But you are leaving out the third possibility which is an area stuck at 
 40% completion, which doesn't have a vibrant community either.

Oh, indeed. But if we were to put as much effort into marketing OSM and
improving our tools as we do into writing and indeed discussing bots, the
40% areas would be fixed.

I shall exempt myself from that in an irritatingly sanctimonious fashion
because I am doing some Potlatch stuff at the moment. :) :) :)

cheers
Richard



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Re: [Talk-GB] OSM Analysis New Data and bot

2011-06-10 Per discussione Frederik Ramm


Hi,

SteveC wrote:

Or as close to it as possible, yes. I don't care what the result is,
it's just too fashionable to automatically believe the imports are
bad thing.


Funny that you should use the word fashionable, as if to discount 
those who say it as merely following a fashion instead of possibly 
having a mind of their own.


If I remember correctly, it used to be the other way round; when TIGER 
was imported, everyone went aaah and oooh - myself included -, and even 
when AND became available there were very few, if any, complaints. It is 
only in the recent past that a more critical view of imports has 
established itself in the community. One should ask: What has happened 
(or has not happened) in the mean time? - That would perhaps go some way 
to explain the fashion.


I have a feeling that no imports is fashionable in the same way as no 
smoking. It's a fairly recent development, that's true, but it is based 
on experience and observation; it's not just a fad. And it is unlikely 
to turn around again any time soon.


Bye
Frederik

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Re: [Talk-GB] OSM Analysis New Data and bot

2011-06-10 Per discussione Kev js1982

On Fri, Jun 10, 2011 at 11:51, Graham Stewart gra...@dalmuti.net wrote:


  Great shame. So - recruit some more mappers. Write better tools to help
  the people who show up nearby on your user page, yet who haven't edited
  yet.

 You've got me there.
 Of the 30 nearby people on my user page, 20 have never made any edit.
 Only 3 have edited in the past 6 months and few of those were local.


Very similar for me just outside of Nottingham (i.e. within an hours walking
distance to far side of the city centre) it can see that of the 30 near by
14 have made no edits, 12 haven't edited in over a year, and only one person
aside from myself in the last month - the remainging three are all mapping
outside the area!  Admittedly these are all within 3 km so it's not picked
up those that have been attending the meet ups who tend to map the other
side of the city centre and further afield.

On Fri, Jun 10, 2011 at 10:27, Adam Hoyle adam.li...@dotankstudios.com
wrote:

*Sorry in advance - after writing this I've realised I'm possibly
heading off on a tangent (I do that).
Speaking of the awesomeness of Cycle Map and how that encourages people
- I really want an openwalkingtothepubmap, which would basically be a clone
of the gorgeous cycle map, but with the coloured cycle routes removed in
favour of coloured paths and also pubs visible when quite zoomed out (and
prolly post boxes too, but that is probably particularly niche).*


It would be really useful if such maps highlighted roads with sidewalks
too - one of the trunk routes round here has a decent footpath along side of
it but any walking directions avoid it like the plague - mind you the
slowless of OpenCycleMap updates recently has made me look at JXAPI for
getting roads tagged with LCN so I guess I can now play with that working
out how to add roads with sidewalks.


Going back to the original argument - the reason I started Open Street Map
was because my road had been missed dispite the whole estate being mapped to
Google Maps Completeness apart from that (actually better than Google Maps
as it didn't try and route you down a mud track) - but if the estate hadn't
even been there at all I probably wouldn't have even done that minor fix!

Kev
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Re: [Talk-GB] OSM Analysis New Data and bot

2011-06-10 Per discussione Andy Robinson (blackadder-lists)

Graham Stewart graham@... writes:

That raises the question of why on earth we're still using cliquey
semi-private email lists when we could be using nice open public forums with
categories, threaded discussions, formatting and voting - but that is a
discussion for another day. ;)

I use Gmane: http://news.gmane.org/gmane.comp.gis.openstreetmap.region.gb

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Re: [Talk-GB] OSM Analysis New Data and bot

2011-06-10 Per discussione Tom Hughes


On 10/06/11 10:17, Graham Stewart wrote:


That raises the question of why on earth we're still using cliquey
semi-private email lists when we could be using nice open public forums
with categories, threaded discussions, formatting and voting - but that
is a discussion for another day. ;)


How is a mailing list with multiple public archives any more or less 
cliquey than a web forum?


By the way lists have categories - they are called lists.

They also have threaded discussions, at least unless your mail client 
was written in about 1985 or something.


If you really want you can send HTML mail for formatting - we don't 
actual stop such things. Though of course people who don't need to see 
all the colour and blinking can read as plain text instead.


Far and away the biggest advantage of mailing lists is that they deliver 
messages right to my desktop where I can skip through dozens of messages 
in a matter of seconds.


By comparison the UI of web forums is just horrendous and time sapping 
to an extraordinary degree. First you have to remember to visit the 
forum to see if there are new messages, then you have to click through 
each message, twiddling your thumbs while you wait for each page to load 
as you move from message to message.


I know which model I prefer thanks.

Tom

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http://compton.nu/

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Re: [Talk-GB] OSM Analysis New Data and bot

2011-06-10 Per discussione Matt Amos

On Fri, Jun 10, 2011 at 12:36 PM, SteveC st...@asklater.com wrote:
 There are tons of things. People drive in the US so pubs are difficult to 
 arrange things around. Mapping in the US is boring because of the big gridded 
 cities. I map much less in the US than the UK. It's not just that there are 
 roads there already, which by the way is a good thing because I have sat for 
 hours correcting them against aerial.

 It's just not that simple to say imports killed it.

some interesting facts:

http://matt.dev.openstreetmap.org/editors_urban_per_month.png
http://matt.dev.openstreetmap.org/editor_growth_comparison.png

when the AND import ran (around sep '07), it seems the NL community
was already about an order of magnitude larger than the US community
when the TIGER import ran (roughly sep '07 - feb '08). in the
comparison, with fewer countries but the time base adjusted so that
they all hit 1 user per month per million urban population at the same
time, it's pretty clear to see that the UK, NL and RU communities seem
to be carving roughly the same path. the germans grew much faster over
their first 3 years than other communities.

the US is difficult to interpret. one view is that it grew at
approximately the same rate as UK, NL and RU until about 1.5 years in,
where it plateaus. that's late 2009, when there was lots of TIGER
fixup activity and some big mapping parties (e.g: Atlanta). the
alternative view is that the growth rate is actually smaller, but that
there's a temporary peak mid-late 2009 which masks that.

given that these numbers are normalised to the *urban* population,
population density issues don't come into it - we're basically looking
at cities. and given that AT and RU have a much lower proportion of
their populations in urban areas than the US. Canada has about the
same urbanisation as the US, and similar gridded cities, and similar
attitudes to driving [1], but a growth curve the same as France or
Spain.

this doesn't tell us what the cause of slow community growth in the US
is, but it does tell us that it isn't population density, it isn't
driving attitudes and it isn't the interestingness (or not) of the
road layout.

cheers,

matt

[1] 77% of Canadians use public transport a few times a year or
less, compared with 88% of those in the US, 48% in the UK and 13% in
Russia, according to
http://switchboard.nrdc.org/blogs/kbenfield/natgeo_surveys_countries_trans.html

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Re: [Talk-GB] OSM Analysis New Data and bot

-Original Message-
From: Frederik Ramm [mailto:frede...@remote.org]
Sent: 10 June 2011 3:39 PM
To: SteveC
Cc: talk-gb@openstreetmap.org
Subject: Re: [Talk-GB] OSM Analysis New Data and bot

Hi,

SteveC wrote:
 Or as close to it as possible, yes. I don't care what the result is,
 it's just too fashionable to automatically believe the imports are bad
 thing.

Funny that you should use the word fashionable, as if to discount those
who
say it as merely following a fashion instead of possibly having a mind of
their
own.

If I remember correctly, it used to be the other way round; when TIGER was
imported, everyone went aaah and oooh - myself included -, and even when
AND became available there were very few, if any, complaints. It is only in
the
recent past that a more critical view of imports has established itself in
the
community. One should ask: What has happened (or has not happened) in
the mean time? - That would perhaps go some way to explain the fashion.

I have a feeling that no imports is fashionable in the same way as no
smoking. It's a fairly recent development, that's true, but it is based on
experience and observation; it's not just a fad. And it is unlikely to turn
around
again any time soon.

+1

My feeling is that we did most of the early (and perhaps current) imports
fairly blindly. TIGER needed two attempts and we still ended up with a bag
of marbles despite much valuable work by Dave Hansen and others. The AND
data was discussed and pulled apart by the NL community for quite a while
but still it raised some questions afterwards. All this should be telling us
something thats actually quite obvious. Other peoples data is exactly that,
other peoples data. If we want it in OSM then as long as we accept it
doesn't fit our expectations (and most of it never will) then perhaps we can
live it (or not). I recall when AND data was imported we also had some data
from them for China, which when a bit of checking was done by someone with
some knowledge of reality on the ground turned out to be more fiction and
fantasy than useful geographical information. Hence we ignored it.

It's always going to be a difficult call to agree that an import is good or
bad for OSM, even if many folks spend many hours working the mapping of tags
etc etc. And it's not so easy to do anything about a poor import once it's
in OSM. So in reality we are dammed if we do and dammed if we don't.

Cheers
Andy

Bye
Frederik

--
Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail frede...@remote.org  ##  N49°00'09 E008°23'33

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Re: [Talk-GB] OSM Analysis New Data and bot

2011-06-10 Per discussione Andy Robinson (blackadder-lists)

Nice work Matt

Cheers
Andy

-Original Message-
From: Matt Amos [mailto:zerebub...@gmail.com]
Sent: 10 June 2011 4:20 PM
To: SteveC
Cc: talk-gb@openstreetmap.org; Richard Fairhurst
Subject: Re: [Talk-GB] OSM Analysis New Data and bot

On Fri, Jun 10, 2011 at 12:36 PM, SteveC st...@asklater.com wrote:
 There are tons of things. People drive in the US so pubs are difficult to
arrange things around. Mapping in the US is boring because of the big
gridded
cities. I map much less in the US than the UK. It's not just that there are
roads
there already, which by the way is a good thing because I have sat for
hours
correcting them against aerial.

 It's just not that simple to say imports killed it.

some interesting facts:

http://matt.dev.openstreetmap.org/editors_urban_per_month.png
http://matt.dev.openstreetmap.org/editor_growth_comparison.png

when the AND import ran (around sep '07), it seems the NL community was
already about an order of magnitude larger than the US community when the
TIGER import ran (roughly sep '07 - feb '08). in the comparison, with fewer
countries but the time base adjusted so that they all hit 1 user per month
per
million urban population at the same time, it's pretty clear to see that
the UK,
NL and RU communities seem to be carving roughly the same path. the
germans grew much faster over their first 3 years than other communities.

the US is difficult to interpret. one view is that it grew at approximately
the
same rate as UK, NL and RU until about 1.5 years in, where it plateaus.
that's
late 2009, when there was lots of TIGER fixup activity and some big mapping
parties (e.g: Atlanta). the alternative view is that the growth rate is
actually
smaller, but that there's a temporary peak mid-late 2009 which masks that.

given that these numbers are normalised to the *urban* population,
population density issues don't come into it - we're basically looking at
cities.
and given that AT and RU have a much lower proportion of their populations
in urban areas than the US. Canada has about the same urbanisation as the
US, and similar gridded cities, and similar attitudes to driving [1], but a
growth
curve the same as France or Spain.

this doesn't tell us what the cause of slow community growth in the US is,
but
it does tell us that it isn't population density, it isn't driving
attitudes and it isn't
the interestingness (or not) of the road layout.

cheers,

matt

[1] 77% of Canadians use public transport a few times a year or less,
compared with 88% of those in the US, 48% in the UK and 13% in Russia,
according to
http://switchboard.nrdc.org/blogs/kbenfield/natgeo_surveys_countries_tran
s.html

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Re: [Talk-GB] Forum (was OSM Analysis New Data and bot)