Re: [Talk-us] US Addressing
Is there evidence of Google using streetview plus OCR for addressing data yet? I could imagine the crowdsource version of this that recognizes street signs and codes the address blocks frequently found on them. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] US Addressing
brycenesbitt wrote: Is there evidence of Google using streetview plus OCR for addressing data yet? They've integrated it into ReCaptcha: http://techcrunch.com/2012/03/29/google-now-using-recaptcha-to-decode-street-view-addresses/ cheers Richard -- View this message in context: http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/US-Addressing-tp5738103p5738467.html Sent from the USA mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] US Addressing
Does anyone have any success stories of asking localities to open up previously copyrighted data? I'm going down the just ask nicely for *really* open data path here in Seattle, but have yet to hear back from the authorities. It seems that having a list of other cities that have opened up and shared data would be a good reference tool when going to ask for looser restrictions. - Jeff On Wed, Nov 28, 2012 at 4:52 PM, Brian May b...@mapwise.com wrote: On 11/28/2012 6:35 PM, Ian Dees wrote: Hi folks, So SteveC's blog post sparked a bit of conversation today: http://stevecoast.com/2012/11/28/openstreetmap-addressable/ I'd love to see OSM US lead the way on collecting high quality addressing data from as many places as possible and throw it in to OSM. To that end I started with this spreadsheet here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AsVnlPsfrhUIdEVZTzVFalFYYnlvTkc0R05wcUpsWVE I think we should crowd-source an effort to collect as much local addressing data as possible, convert it to OSM format, and import it. Obviously we should do it in a controlled manner and follow the usual import guidelines, but a *large* part of the work is in collecting the data in the first place and convincing municipalities to license it to us in a compatible manner. Is anyone else interested in this? I could use some help gathering volunteers to the cause. -Ian ___ Talk-us mailing listTalk-us@openstreetmap.orghttp://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us I support this 1000%. 2013 should be the year of the addresses for OSM in the US. Addresses are sorely needed in a big way. And there's tons of accurate info that local governments have spent millions collecting already (could be hundreds of millions). I was just reading an old thread from last year on importing address info based on parcels. I can help in many areas of Florida. GIS data in FL is essentially public domain. We have very liberal open records laws. I already have parcels for the whole state, which all include site addresses (many have city and zipcode as well) as well as address points for several counties. There's a few counties with building outlines as well. For those, we could do some pre-processing to attach addresses to buildings and import that, at least for the counties where individual address points are not available and for parcels with one building. Multiple buildings and addresses per parcel are another issue. In the spreadsheet, would it make more sense to have the records by county, and split out into cities where necessary? In Florida, its the county govmts and county property appraisers that create / maintain parcels and addresses databases. I know that is not the case in some NE states, though. Brian ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us -- Jeff Meyer Global World History Atlas www.gwhat.org j...@gwhat.org 206-676-2347 ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] US Addressing
On Thu, Nov 29, 2012 at 10:51 AM, Jeffrey Ollie j...@ocjtech.us wrote: The Iowa DNR has an ongoing project to provide statewide geocoding data. As of this summer they had about 50% of the state covered: http://iagiservicebureau.blogspot.com/2012/06/first-batch-of-geocoding-project-points.html It would be fairly trivial to convert these shape files and import them. That is awesome. I'm adding data to the spreadsheet based on this listing here: ftp://ftp.igsb.uiowa.edu/gis_library/counties/ ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] US Addressing
I'm wholeheartedly behind this effort as address data have long been an interest. So I just had a quick look at obtaining data for Arlington, VA. The data (current as of May 2012) are available on CD for cost of reproduction ($125) and includes address points, plus parcels, zoning, flood control zones, etc. The data are furnished in ArcGIS *personal* database format ONLY. (I have access to ArcGIS, so could theoretically convert them.) The data are copyrighted and Arlington County owns all rights to the data and allows use ...as an acknowledged source to produce maps or analysis but you may not redistribute, resell, or copy the data (except for back-up purposes). Probably other jurisdictions out there that place similar conditions on their data. -- SEJ -- twitter: @geomantic -- skype: sejohnson8 Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen. -- Einstein On Thu, Nov 29, 2012 at 12:28 PM, Ian Dees ian.d...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Nov 29, 2012 at 10:51 AM, Jeffrey Ollie j...@ocjtech.us wrote: The Iowa DNR has an ongoing project to provide statewide geocoding data. As of this summer they had about 50% of the state covered: http://iagiservicebureau.blogspot.com/2012/06/first-batch-of-geocoding-project-points.html It would be fairly trivial to convert these shape files and import them. That is awesome. I'm adding data to the spreadsheet based on this listing here: ftp://ftp.igsb.uiowa.edu/gis_library/counties/ ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] US Addressing
On 11/29/12 1:03 PM, Steven Johnson wrote: The data are copyrighted and Arlington County owns all rights to the data and allows use ...as an acknowledged source to produce maps or analysis but you may not redistribute, resell, or copy the data (except for back-up purposes). the redistribute clause is a real problem, as we don't attempt to control people taking copies of OSM as long as they honor the ODbL. i'd say this license is ODbL incompatible (not a lawyer, though.) richard ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] US Addressing
QGIS 1.8 on Windows can open ESRI Personal Database format files (.mdb, right?). On Thu, Nov 29, 2012 at 10:03 AM, Steven Johnson sejohns...@gmail.comwrote: I'm wholeheartedly behind this effort as address data have long been an interest. So I just had a quick look at obtaining data for Arlington, VA. The data (current as of May 2012) are available on CD for cost of reproduction ($125) and includes address points, plus parcels, zoning, flood control zones, etc. The data are furnished in ArcGIS *personal* database format ONLY. (I have access to ArcGIS, so could theoretically convert them.) The data are copyrighted and Arlington County owns all rights to the data and allows use ...as an acknowledged source to produce maps or analysis but you may not redistribute, resell, or copy the data (except for back-up purposes). Probably other jurisdictions out there that place similar conditions on their data. -- SEJ -- twitter: @geomantic -- skype: sejohnson8 Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen. -- Einstein On Thu, Nov 29, 2012 at 12:28 PM, Ian Dees ian.d...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Nov 29, 2012 at 10:51 AM, Jeffrey Ollie j...@ocjtech.us wrote: The Iowa DNR has an ongoing project to provide statewide geocoding data. As of this summer they had about 50% of the state covered: http://iagiservicebureau.blogspot.com/2012/06/first-batch-of-geocoding-project-points.html It would be fairly trivial to convert these shape files and import them. That is awesome. I'm adding data to the spreadsheet based on this listing here: ftp://ftp.igsb.uiowa.edu/gis_library/counties/ ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us -- Jeff Meyer Global World History Atlas www.gwhat.org j...@gwhat.org 206-676-2347 ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] US Addressing
On 11/29/2012 1:11 PM, Richard Welty wrote: On 11/29/12 1:03 PM, Steven Johnson wrote: The data are copyrighted and Arlington County owns all rights to the data and allows use ...as an acknowledged source to produce maps or analysis but you may not redistribute, resell, or copy the data (except for back-up purposes). the redistribute clause is a real problem, as we don't attempt to control people taking copies of OSM as long as they honor the ODbL. i'd say this license is ODbL incompatible (not a lawyer, though.) richard Local governments may claim copyright, but whether they can legally is another matter. A very quick review of Virginia state law appears to show they have liberal open records laws. http://www.opengovva.org/virginias-foia-the-law We should probably track these public records problems, e.g. counties and cities that claim copyright, etc but the state law says otherwise. Brian ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] US Addressing
That was exactly my reaction as well. My understanding is that these data are essentially in the public domain. I'll note it in the spreadsheet. -- SEJ -- twitter: @geomantic -- skype: sejohnson8 Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen. -- Einstein On Thu, Nov 29, 2012 at 1:58 PM, Brian May b...@mapwise.com wrote: On 11/29/2012 1:11 PM, Richard Welty wrote: On 11/29/12 1:03 PM, Steven Johnson wrote: The data are copyrighted and Arlington County owns all rights to the data and allows use ...as an acknowledged source to produce maps or analysis but you may not redistribute, resell, or copy the data (except for back-up purposes). the redistribute clause is a real problem, as we don't attempt to control people taking copies of OSM as long as they honor the ODbL. i'd say this license is ODbL incompatible (not a lawyer, though.) richard Local governments may claim copyright, but whether they can legally is another matter. A very quick review of Virginia state law appears to show they have liberal open records laws. http://www.opengovva.org/**virginias-foia-the-lawhttp://www.opengovva.org/virginias-foia-the-law We should probably track these public records problems, e.g. counties and cities that claim copyright, etc but the state law says otherwise. Brian __**_ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.**org/listinfo/talk-ushttp://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] US Addressing
The city/county of Denver, CO does have a parcels database (in a bunch of formats) (http://data.denvergov.org/dataset/city-and-county-of-denver-parcels) But it is licensed under a CC BY 3.0 License (http://data.denvergov.org/dataset/city-and-county-of-denver-parcels) Is this something that should even be added to the spreadsheet? It looks like all their data is from Sanborn, so the older data should be out of copyright by now, if it can be found elsewhere. On Thu, Nov 29, 2012 at 12:04 PM, Steven Johnson sejohns...@gmail.comwrote: That was exactly my reaction as well. My understanding is that these data are essentially in the public domain. I'll note it in the spreadsheet. -- SEJ -- twitter: @geomantic -- skype: sejohnson8 Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen. -- Einstein On Thu, Nov 29, 2012 at 1:58 PM, Brian May b...@mapwise.com wrote: On 11/29/2012 1:11 PM, Richard Welty wrote: On 11/29/12 1:03 PM, Steven Johnson wrote: The data are copyrighted and Arlington County owns all rights to the data and allows use ...as an acknowledged source to produce maps or analysis but you may not redistribute, resell, or copy the data (except for back-up purposes). the redistribute clause is a real problem, as we don't attempt to control people taking copies of OSM as long as they honor the ODbL. i'd say this license is ODbL incompatible (not a lawyer, though.) richard Local governments may claim copyright, but whether they can legally is another matter. A very quick review of Virginia state law appears to show they have liberal open records laws. http://www.opengovva.org/**virginias-foia-the-lawhttp://www.opengovva.org/virginias-foia-the-law We should probably track these public records problems, e.g. counties and cities that claim copyright, etc but the state law says otherwise. Brian __**_ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.**org/listinfo/talk-ushttp://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] US Addressing
If Sanborn was just a contractor hired by the govmt agency to help with digitizing, data conversion, etc. there should be no copyright issues with them. I didn't see a reference to Sanborn in the parcel metadata. Brian On 11/29/2012 2:36 PM, Jim McAndrew wrote: The city/county of Denver, CO does have a parcels database (in a bunch of formats) (http://data.denvergov.org/dataset/city-and-county-of-denver-parcels) But it is licensed under a CC BY 3.0 License (http://data.denvergov.org/dataset/city-and-county-of-denver-parcels) Is this something that should even be added to the spreadsheet? It looks like all their data is from Sanborn, so the older data should be out of copyright by now, if it can be found elsewhere. On Thu, Nov 29, 2012 at 12:04 PM, Steven Johnson sejohns...@gmail.com mailto:sejohns...@gmail.com wrote: That was exactly my reaction as well. My understanding is that these data are essentially in the public domain. I'll note it in the spreadsheet. -- SEJ -- twitter: @geomantic -- skype: sejohnson8 Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen. -- Einstein On Thu, Nov 29, 2012 at 1:58 PM, Brian May b...@mapwise.com mailto:b...@mapwise.com wrote: On 11/29/2012 1:11 PM, Richard Welty wrote: On 11/29/12 1:03 PM, Steven Johnson wrote: The data are copyrighted and Arlington County owns all rights to the data and allows use ...as an acknowledged source to produce maps or analysis but you may not redistribute, resell, or copy the data (except for back-up purposes). the redistribute clause is a real problem, as we don't attempt to control people taking copies of OSM as long as they honor the ODbL. i'd say this license is ODbL incompatible (not a lawyer, though.) richard Local governments may claim copyright, but whether they can legally is another matter. A very quick review of Virginia state law appears to show they have liberal open records laws. http://www.opengovva.org/virginias-foia-the-law We should probably track these public records problems, e.g. counties and cities that claim copyright, etc but the state law says otherwise. Brian ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org mailto:Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org mailto:Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] US Addressing
Brian, That's probably true. There is no reference to Sanborn in the metadata, but there is an attribute PARCEL_SOURCE which seems to be set to Sanborn in most cases. -- Jim On Thu, Nov 29, 2012 at 12:59 PM, Brian May b...@mapwise.com wrote: If Sanborn was just a contractor hired by the govmt agency to help with digitizing, data conversion, etc. there should be no copyright issues with them. I didn't see a reference to Sanborn in the parcel metadata. Brian On 11/29/2012 2:36 PM, Jim McAndrew wrote: The city/county of Denver, CO does have a parcels database (in a bunch of formats) (http://data.denvergov.org/dataset/city-and-county-of-denver-parcels) But it is licensed under a CC BY 3.0 License (http://data.denvergov.org/dataset/city-and-county-of-denver-parcels) Is this something that should even be added to the spreadsheet? It looks like all their data is from Sanborn, so the older data should be out of copyright by now, if it can be found elsewhere. On Thu, Nov 29, 2012 at 12:04 PM, Steven Johnson sejohns...@gmail.comwrote: That was exactly my reaction as well. My understanding is that these data are essentially in the public domain. I'll note it in the spreadsheet. -- SEJ -- twitter: @geomantic -- skype: sejohnson8 Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen. -- Einstein On Thu, Nov 29, 2012 at 1:58 PM, Brian May b...@mapwise.com wrote: On 11/29/2012 1:11 PM, Richard Welty wrote: On 11/29/12 1:03 PM, Steven Johnson wrote: The data are copyrighted and Arlington County owns all rights to the data and allows use ...as an acknowledged source to produce maps or analysis but you may not redistribute, resell, or copy the data (except for back-up purposes). the redistribute clause is a real problem, as we don't attempt to control people taking copies of OSM as long as they honor the ODbL. i'd say this license is ODbL incompatible (not a lawyer, though.) richard Local governments may claim copyright, but whether they can legally is another matter. A very quick review of Virginia state law appears to show they have liberal open records laws. http://www.opengovva.org/virginias-foia-the-law We should probably track these public records problems, e.g. counties and cities that claim copyright, etc but the state law says otherwise. Brian ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us ___ Talk-us mailing listTalk-us@openstreetmap.orghttp://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] US Addressing
Well this thread rekindled a conversation I had started with my county GIS office over a year ago. At that time they gave me a copy of their 6 imagery which I have used extensively. Within the last 24 hours I have reestablished contact and been given permission to use their data in OSM as well as supplied with credentials to log in to their FTP server and help myself to shapefiles. The only restriction they place on the data (which is in line with the Kansas Open Records Act) is that you can't use the land owner name plus address information in their parcel data for commercial purposes, specifically marketing. I made it very clear that I had no interest whatsoever in using the names and that all I needed was address and location. They were happy with this. Now for the hard part. Converting and conflating the information with the non-trivial number of addresses I have already collected on the ground. Toby ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] US Addressing
On Thu, Nov 29, 2012 at 11:28 AM, Ian Dees ian.d...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Nov 29, 2012 at 10:51 AM, Jeffrey Ollie j...@ocjtech.us wrote: The Iowa DNR has an ongoing project to provide statewide geocoding data. As of this summer they had about 50% of the state covered: http://iagiservicebureau.blogspot.com/2012/06/first-batch-of-geocoding-project-points.html It would be fairly trivial to convert these shape files and import them. That is awesome. I'm adding data to the spreadsheet based on this listing here: ftp://ftp.igsb.uiowa.edu/gis_library/counties/ I quickly hacked up a script to convert the Iowa data into a JOSM changeset. I converted Story County, Iowa (which includes Ames, Iowa and Iowa State University) and stuck what I came up with here: https://docs.google.com/a/ocjtech.us/folder/d/0B5VwdTUBhU7UdVNnb2swamx6MVE/edit (hopefully that link works for you, this is the first time I've used Google docs to share data in this way). It looks pretty good from what I saw, with the obvious exception that newer homes aren't tagged. I'm going to clean up my code a bit and stick it up on github somewhere. -- Jeff Ollie ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] US Addressing
Jeffrey Ollie wrote: It looks pretty good from what I saw, with the obvious exception that newer homes aren't tagged. I'm going to clean up my code a bit and stick it up on github somewhere. If you chaps are all dead set on doing another massive TIGER import - hey, it's your funeral - could I at least urge a little caution on the practicalities of it all? Just having a look at the .osm file posted here, for example, the street names are all unexpanded: Washington St, Park Ave, Deer Run Ln, etc. There have been about 937 threads about expanding TIGER street names since the initial import and it would be a shame to fall into the same hole again. I'm also very very doubtful about the value of importing city, state and (!) country: if we don't have polygons for all of those already, then we really should. Importing n billion nodes into the States which all say hey, this is in the States will bloat the database and hammer download speeds for absolutely no gain whatsoever. cheers Richard -- View this message in context: http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/US-Addressing-tp5738103p5738298.html Sent from the USA mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] US Addressing
On 11/29/12 5:26 PM, Richard Fairhurst wrote: I'm also very very doubtful about the value of importing city, state and (!) country: if we don't have polygons for all of those already, then we really should. Importing n billion nodes into the States which all say hey, this is in the States will bloat the database and hammer download speeds for absolutely no gain whatsoever. sorry, but we have to do it that way. addressing in the US is by postal route, which frequently does not match up with city/town/village boundaries. i have a friend who lives in the Town of Colonie, Albany County, but his postal address is Schenectady (Schenectady being a city in Schenectady County, next door.) and there are no polygons for postal routes, only best guesses. the post office won't publish them on the grounds that they're routes, not polygons; the Census Bureau has published them in the past, but they're guesses because as far as i know, the postal service wasn't cooperative. richard ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] US Addressing
On Thu, Nov 29, 2012 at 4:26 PM, Richard Fairhurst rich...@systemed.netwrote: Jeffrey Ollie wrote: It looks pretty good from what I saw, with the obvious exception that newer homes aren't tagged. I'm going to clean up my code a bit and stick it up on github somewhere. If you chaps are all dead set on doing another massive TIGER import - hey, it's your funeral - could I at least urge a little caution on the practicalities of it all? I really don't want to support a complete TIGER address import unless our effort at finding real local addressing data fails in some places. Just having a look at the .osm file posted here, for example, the street names are all unexpanded: Washington St, Park Ave, Deer Run Ln, etc. There have been about 937 threads about expanding TIGER street names since the initial import and it would be a shame to fall into the same hole again. Just about all the data I've seen is unexpanded. We'll probably have to deal with that on a per-county basis (assuming we're not importing TIGER). I'm also very very doubtful about the value of importing city, state and (!) country: if we don't have polygons for all of those already, then we really should. Importing n billion nodes into the States which all say hey, this is in the States will bloat the database and hammer download speeds for absolutely no gain whatsoever. I think that anything beyond house number, street, and maybe city would be superfluous and shouldn't be included in addressing imports and will try to advocate for that. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] US Addressing
On Thu, Nov 29, 2012 at 4:26 PM, Richard Fairhurst rich...@systemed.net wrote: Jeffrey Ollie wrote: It looks pretty good from what I saw, with the obvious exception that newer homes aren't tagged. I'm going to clean up my code a bit and stick it up on github somewhere. If you chaps are all dead set on doing another massive TIGER import - hey, it's your funeral - could I at least urge a little caution on the practicalities of it all? Just having a look at the .osm file posted here, for example, the street names are all unexpanded: Washington St, Park Ave, Deer Run Ln, etc. There have been about 937 threads about expanding TIGER street names since the initial import and it would be a shame to fall into the same hole again. None of the Iowa data that I am processing originates with the US Census or TIGER. The underlying sources of the data are described ad nauseum here: ftp://ftp.igsb.uiowa.edu/gis_library/counties/Story/Address_85.html Basically the data comes from county auditor parcel data, processed through the US Postal Service addressing database, and compared against aerial photography to move the point to the intersection of the driveway with the road. As for name expansion, I'll take a look into that. The data source that I'm using doesn't separate prefixes and suffixes out like TIGER does though... I'm also very very doubtful about the value of importing city, state and (!) country: if we don't have polygons for all of those already, then we really should. Importing n billion nodes into the States which all say hey, this is in the States will bloat the database and hammer download speeds for absolutely no gain whatsoever. As Richard Welty said, the addr:city tag is pretty much required, as US addresses aren't defined by the boundaries of the city you live in (or don't live in for rural addresses), but the post office that delivers your mail. I can see not including the country or the state, do the various routing/geocoding engines take advantage of state/country polygons? Are there any exceptions out there where the address is physically in one state, but their postal address is from a neighboring state because that's where the post office is? -- Jeff Ollie ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] US Addressing
There are a few exceptions, but the local post offices know how to handle them. They are also extremely minor and the people who live or do business in these areas are probably used to the confusion. If you're curious though: Part of Kentucky has a Tennessee zip code and addresses: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kentucky_Bend There's also a town in Illinois with a Missouri zip code, although the current ZCTA map shows it as being in an Illinois zip code: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaskaskia,_Illinois Fishers Island, NY has a Connecticut zip code, but its own post office, so this is really only a special case from a routing point of view: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fishers_Island,_New_York#Culture -- Jim McAndrew On Thu, Nov 29, 2012 at 3:46 PM, Jeffrey Ollie j...@ocjtech.us wrote: On Thu, Nov 29, 2012 at 4:26 PM, Richard Fairhurst rich...@systemed.net wrote: Jeffrey Ollie wrote: It looks pretty good from what I saw, with the obvious exception that newer homes aren't tagged. I'm going to clean up my code a bit and stick it up on github somewhere. If you chaps are all dead set on doing another massive TIGER import - hey, it's your funeral - could I at least urge a little caution on the practicalities of it all? Just having a look at the .osm file posted here, for example, the street names are all unexpanded: Washington St, Park Ave, Deer Run Ln, etc. There have been about 937 threads about expanding TIGER street names since the initial import and it would be a shame to fall into the same hole again. None of the Iowa data that I am processing originates with the US Census or TIGER. The underlying sources of the data are described ad nauseum here: ftp://ftp.igsb.uiowa.edu/gis_library/counties/Story/Address_85.html Basically the data comes from county auditor parcel data, processed through the US Postal Service addressing database, and compared against aerial photography to move the point to the intersection of the driveway with the road. As for name expansion, I'll take a look into that. The data source that I'm using doesn't separate prefixes and suffixes out like TIGER does though... I'm also very very doubtful about the value of importing city, state and (!) country: if we don't have polygons for all of those already, then we really should. Importing n billion nodes into the States which all say hey, this is in the States will bloat the database and hammer download speeds for absolutely no gain whatsoever. As Richard Welty said, the addr:city tag is pretty much required, as US addresses aren't defined by the boundaries of the city you live in (or don't live in for rural addresses), but the post office that delivers your mail. I can see not including the country or the state, do the various routing/geocoding engines take advantage of state/country polygons? Are there any exceptions out there where the address is physically in one state, but their postal address is from a neighboring state because that's where the post office is? -- Jeff Ollie ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] US Addressing
Hi, On 29.11.2012 23:26, Richard Fairhurst wrote: If you chaps are all dead set on doing another massive TIGER import - hey, it's your funeral It's not a funeral. It's a sacrifice of long-term project health for a short term gain. Nobody in the overheated IT business world makes plans for something in five years; stuff that is in planning today will launch in 2013 and be dead in 2014. Naturally, if OSM can't promise addresses for 2013 then the business world isn't interested. OSM has a choice. We don't have to submit to commercial life cycles; we've come as far as we have without doing it and we'll grow further even if we're not doing it. We can afford to tell those who ask: Thank you, we agree that addresses are important, but we'll do it our way and this will take time. We might miss a few opportunities that way - we might see a little less announcements about some other big player having made the switch2osm in the short term. We might see a couple businesses throwing together OSM and third-party addressing and try to make a viable offer from that. But we'd be doing things our way, building a strong community and a good foundation for future growth. Or we could opt for the quick success story, for a couple more minutes of fame, import data that we haven't created, haven't even seen - essentially become a distributor of third-party datasets. Garner some headlines, give a couple smart interviews to the press about why OSM is great (when in fact the data import is admitting the failure of precisely that which is great about OSM - individuals surveying the world). We've been ignored by the big guys long enough - and even so flourished in the shadow. Does it really hurt if we're ignored for a while longer, and slowly and steadily grow? I'd like to think that mankind has meanwhile learned to ask the sustainability question, and certainly imports aren't sustainable. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09 E008°23'33 ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] US Addressing
On 29 November 2012 21:12, Toby Murray toby.mur...@gmail.com wrote: Now for the hard part. Converting and conflating the information with the non-trivial number of addresses I have already collected on the ground. Compared to conflating names or geometries, addresses are not a problem because the street and the housenumber form a unique id. Before comparing them it is worth splitting the street name into words, reordering the words within the name to order them lexically, and abbreviating them using a not-necessarily-perfect word list (such as that from tiger or nominatim), to account for variations. We've had to do that for one city recently but it turned out to be a simple check. The (150 loc) conversion script for that data would read 4 files: * the new addresses in a particular format, * an output of an overpass/xapi query for elements tagged with adds:housenumber=* * an output of an overpass/xapi query for ways tagged with building=* * an output of an overpass/xapi query for named highways. it would output: * an .osm file adding the addresses missing from OSM, either attached to existing buildings or added as nodes * a list of potentially missing streets who's names appeared in the addresses. Cheers ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] US Addressing
On 29/11/2012 22:46, Jeffrey Ollie wrote: None of the Iowa data that I am processing originates with the US Census or TIGER. Sure, I should have said big massive ---k-off import rather than TIGER. They both look the same from several thousand miles away I'm afraid. :) As Richard Welty said, the addr:city tag is pretty much required, as US addresses aren't defined by the boundaries of the city you live in (or don't live in for rural addresses), but the post office that delivers your mail. I can see not including the country or the state, do the various routing/geocoding engines take advantage of state/country polygons? I'm pretty sure they do. But regardless, the point is: they could. It's saner to fix (say) Nominatim than it is to import a really huge quantity of redundant data into OSM. If you're determined on doing this, then an extra few days to get it right won't hurt. You could pretty easily, I think, generate automated post office boundary polygons from the source data, rather than settling for addr:city. If it takes a few extra hours of coding, it's worth it; it'd make it _much_ quicker and easier to add a new house in the future. (One less thing to mistype.) Similarly, you might have to scratch your head a bit to write the code which expands St Andrews St into St Andrews Street and not Street Andrews Street. But it's worth it. Because if you don't do it, the 50 poor sods who write the turn-by-turn voiceover code are going to have to, every time they use your data. The specifics of what you have to do aren't really my point. I don't know much about the US and even here in Britain I don't have any personal use for addressing, so you shouldn't listen to me on the specifics. What's important is that the ideas get waved around in front of lots of people - and ideally not just on the US list - so that the hive mind can get to work and achieve the best result possible. cheers Richard ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] US Addressing
On Thu, Nov 29, 2012 at 5:40 PM, Ian Dees ian.d...@gmail.com wrote: I really don't want to support a complete TIGER address import unless our effort at finding real local addressing data fails in some places. I believe that Richard was speaking about TIGER in the sense of the style of import, rather than about the dataset itself. The issues around TIGER were that it gave us a boost initially, but we've been also dealing with the consequences of that import for years, and I think Richard is suggesting that we consider our actions carefully. Just about all the data I've seen is unexpanded. We'll probably have to deal with that on a per-county basis (assuming we're not importing TIGER). Yes, but it's an excellent point- one that should go along with any data import. More than that, I'd like to see the imports follow a process (one which I was writing up about the TIGER expansion), but here's the rough outline: 1. Initial announcement of interest (I'd like to do ___ and either I have the script or data to do so). Ask the community if there's interest/objections. (have some waiting/feedback period) 2. If there's interest and no serious objections, post the data files and scripts for testing. (have some waiting/feedback period) 3. Have a formal code review (as we're doing tonight for the TIGER expansion bot). 4. Have a last call. (have a waiting/patch subimission period) 5. Do the automated edit process. - Serge ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] US Addressing
Ogr will read personal geodatabases with the appropriate drivers so ogr2osm will read them, so if the legal issues can be sorted out there's no problem. From: Steven Johnson [mailto:sejohns...@gmail.com] Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2012 10:04 AM To: Open Street Map Talk-US Subject: Re: [Talk-us] US Addressing I'm wholeheartedly behind this effort as address data have long been an interest. So I just had a quick look at obtaining data for Arlington, VA. The data (current as of May 2012) are available on CD for cost of reproduction ($125) and includes address points, plus parcels, zoning, flood control zones, etc. The data are furnished in ArcGIS *personal* database format ONLY. (I have access to ArcGIS, so could theoretically convert them.) The data are copyrighted and Arlington County owns all rights to the data and allows use ...as an acknowledged source to produce maps or analysis but you may not redistribute, resell, or copy the data (except for back-up purposes). Probably other jurisdictions out there that place similar conditions on their data. -- SEJ -- twitter: @geomantic -- skype: sejohnson8 Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen. -- Einstein On Thu, Nov 29, 2012 at 12:28 PM, Ian Dees ian.d...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Nov 29, 2012 at 10:51 AM, Jeffrey Ollie j...@ocjtech.us wrote: The Iowa DNR has an ongoing project to provide statewide geocoding data. As of this summer they had about 50% of the state covered: http://iagiservicebureau.blogspot.com/2012/06/first-batch-of-geocoding-proje ct-points.html It would be fairly trivial to convert these shape files and import them. That is awesome. I'm adding data to the spreadsheet based on this listing here: ftp://ftp.igsb.uiowa.edu/gis_library/counties/ ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] US Addressing
Let me pose something to help clarify what we're talking about when we say, importing addresses First, are we talking about 1) Address *ranges*, which are linear features and apply to streets/roads? TIGER has address ranges, useful for interpolation. But TIGER does not contain individual addresses. 2) Individual addresses? Points, if you will, associated with buildings, landmarks, postal addresses. These are more likely to come from state/local data sources. Both are important for routing and other applications. But I don't have a good feel yet for how important the relationship is between the two, or how we need to facilitate it. Secondly, about Census data... The Census Bureau publishes ZIP Code Tabulation Areas (ZCTAs, as polygons) but they are an approximation of US Postal Service data and used for downstream analytical purposes. But as far as USPS is concerned, the ZIP code is a point data feature that only exists to deliver the mail. The USPS does not maintain ZIP codes as polygons. -- SEJ -- twitter: @geomantic -- skype: sejohnson8 Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen. -- Einstein ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] US Addressing
On Thu, Nov 29, 2012 at 8:12 PM, Steven Johnson sejohns...@gmail.comwrote: Let me pose something to help clarify what we're talking about when we say, importing addresses First, are we talking about 1) Address *ranges*, which are linear features and apply to streets/roads? TIGER has address ranges, useful for interpolation. But TIGER does not contain individual addresses. We are not talking about importing TIGER addresses at all. 2) Individual addresses? Points, if you will, associated with buildings, landmarks, postal addresses. These are more likely to come from state/local data sources. Yes, individual address points. The topic of this thread was to collect the location of address point data wherever we can find it. We should be talking to state/county/local GIS people to gather this data (thus the spreadsheet). ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] US Addressing
We certainly need to take our time before importing addresses. I considered the problem of manually collecting the city and concluded that it is not possible short of opening mailboxes and reading the address on any mail (highly illegal), or knocking on every door to confirm the mailing address. Much like boundaries, complete address information is possible only with an import. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] US Addressing
Okay, so we're talking about importing address *points*. Good. Now, are we talking strictly about *postal* addresses? Or *site* addresses? In some cases (cities, typically) they're typically the same. But in rural areas not always the case. -- SEJ -- twitter: @geomantic -- skype: sejohnson8 Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen. -- Einstein On Thu, Nov 29, 2012 at 9:21 PM, Mike N nice...@att.net wrote: We certainly need to take our time before importing addresses. I considered the problem of manually collecting the city and concluded that it is not possible short of opening mailboxes and reading the address on any mail (highly illegal), or knocking on every door to confirm the mailing address. Much like boundaries, complete address information is possible only with an import. __**_ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.**org/listinfo/talk-ushttp://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] US Addressing
On Thu, Nov 29, 2012 at 8:31 PM, Steven Johnson sejohns...@gmail.comwrote: Okay, so we're talking about importing address *points*. Good. Now, are we talking strictly about *postal* addresses? Or *site* addresses? In some cases (cities, typically) they're typically the same. But in rural areas not always the case. We're not talking about importing anything yet. We're simply *collecting* any addressing information you can find. We'll take either site or postal addresses. Iowa, for example has two datasets for addressing: one for the end of the driveway (postal) and one for the building (rooftop or site addresses). ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] US Addressing
On 11/29/2012 9:12 PM, Steven Johnson wrote: Secondly, about Census data... The Census Bureau publishes ZIP Code Tabulation Areas (ZCTAs, as polygons) but they are an approximation of US Postal Service data and used for downstream analytical purposes. But as far as USPS is concerned, the ZIP code is a point data feature that only exists to deliver the mail. The USPS does not maintain ZIP codes as polygons. For points coming from parcel centroids, Property Appraisers store mailing addresses, and they need to get that right in order to deliver the tax bills. When the owner mailing address and site address match, I would bet there is a high degree of accuracy for the city and zipcode values in the site address fields (where they are populated). Where the site address zipcode was not available, and mailing street address matched site address, I have used mailing address zipcodes to map zipcode boundaries and obtained what appeared to be good results. Brian ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] US Addressing
On Thursday, November 29, 2012, Brian May wrote: On 11/29/2012 9:12 PM, Steven Johnson wrote: Secondly, about Census data... The Census Bureau publishes ZIP Code Tabulation Areas (ZCTAs, as polygons) but they are an approximation of US Postal Service data and used for downstream analytical purposes. But as far as USPS is concerned, the ZIP code is a point data feature that only exists to deliver the mail. The USPS does not maintain ZIP codes as polygons. For points coming from parcel centroids, Property Appraisers store mailing addresses, and they need to get that right in order to deliver the tax bills. When the owner mailing address and site address match, I would bet there is a high degree of accuracy for the city and zipcode values in the site address fields (where they are populated). Is there a compelling reason not to get parcels instead? As parcels change shape, the centroid can be easily interpolated. It's not really possible to extrapolate geometry from centroid, however. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] US Addressing
On Thursday, November 29, 2012, Brian May wrote: On 11/29/2012 9:12 PM, Steven Johnson wrote: Secondly, about Census data... The Census Bureau publishes ZIP Code Tabulation Areas (ZCTAs, as polygons) but they are an approximation of US Postal Service data and used for downstream analytical purposes. But as far as USPS is concerned, the ZIP code is a point data feature that only exists to deliver the mail. The USPS does not maintain ZIP codes as polygons. For points coming from parcel centroids, Property Appraisers store mailing addresses, and they need to get that right in order to deliver the tax bills. When the owner mailing address and site address match, I would bet there is a high degree of accuracy for the city and zipcode values in the site address fields (where they are populated). Is there a compelling reason not to get parcels instead? As parcels change shape, the centroid can be easily interpolated. It's not really possible to extrapolate geometry from centroid, however. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] US Addressing
One of the problems we run into in portions of the midwest (like here in the St Louis area) is that the local county and municipal governments only lease the parcel data and don't own the data. They are not allowed to share that data without paying a large fee to the company who leases it to them. Here the company that leases the parcel data to the governments is Sidwell. It might make getting parcel data released for geocoding purposes difficult in certain parts of the country. Rick Marshall On Thu, Nov 29, 2012 at 9:32 PM, Paul Johnson ba...@ursamundi.org wrote: On Thursday, November 29, 2012, Brian May wrote: On 11/29/2012 9:12 PM, Steven Johnson wrote: Secondly, about Census data... The Census Bureau publishes ZIP Code Tabulation Areas (ZCTAs, as polygons) but they are an approximation of US Postal Service data and used for downstream analytical purposes. But as far as USPS is concerned, the ZIP code is a point data feature that only exists to deliver the mail. The USPS does not maintain ZIP codes as polygons. For points coming from parcel centroids, Property Appraisers store mailing addresses, and they need to get that right in order to deliver the tax bills. When the owner mailing address and site address match, I would bet there is a high degree of accuracy for the city and zipcode values in the site address fields (where they are populated). Is there a compelling reason not to get parcels instead? As parcels change shape, the centroid can be easily interpolated. It's not really possible to extrapolate geometry from centroid, however. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us -- Rick Marshall, PhD, GISP President Vertical GeoSolutions, Inc (VerticalGeo) 130 Sawgrass Ln O'Fallon, IL 62269 (618) 670-4259 rick.marsh...@verticalgeo.com http://www.verticalgeo.com http://www.culturescapes.net Vertically Thinking Blog: http://verticalgeo.wordpress.com ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] US Addressing
On Thursday, November 29, 2012, Brian May wrote: On 11/29/2012 9:12 PM, Steven Johnson wrote: Secondly, about Census data... The Census Bureau publishes ZIP Code Tabulation Areas (ZCTAs, as polygons) but they are an approximation of US Postal Service data and used for downstream analytical purposes. But as far as USPS is concerned, the ZIP code is a point data feature that only exists to deliver the mail. The USPS does not maintain ZIP codes as polygons. For points coming from parcel centroids, Property Appraisers store mailing addresses, and they need to get that right in order to deliver the tax bills. When the owner mailing address and site address match, I would bet there is a high degree of accuracy for the city and zipcode values in the site address fields (where they are populated). Is there a compelling reason not to get parcels instead? As parcels change shape, the centroid can be easily interpolated. It's not really possible to extrapolate geometry from centroid, however. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] US Addressing
On Thursday, November 29, 2012, Brian May wrote: On 11/29/2012 9:12 PM, Steven Johnson wrote: Secondly, about Census data... The Census Bureau publishes ZIP Code Tabulation Areas (ZCTAs, as polygons) but they are an approximation of US Postal Service data and used for downstream analytical purposes. But as far as USPS is concerned, the ZIP code is a point data feature that only exists to deliver the mail. The USPS does not maintain ZIP codes as polygons. For points coming from parcel centroids, Property Appraisers store mailing addresses, and they need to get that right in order to deliver the tax bills. When the owner mailing address and site address match, I would bet there is a high degree of accuracy for the city and zipcode values in the site address fields (where they are populated). Is there a compelling reason not to get parcels instead? As parcels change shape, the centroid can be easily interpolated. It's not really possible to extrapolate geometry from centroid, however. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] US Addressing
On 11/29/2012 10:32 PM, Paul Johnson wrote: Is there a compelling reason not to get parcels instead? As parcels change shape, the centroid can be easily interpolated. It's not really possible to extrapolate geometry from centroid, however. It would be useful to navigate to address points - properly placed, they will lead to the building of interest or driveway. Centroids on large parcels will frequently misdirect to a side street with no access. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] US Addressing
On 11/29/2012 10:45 PM, Mike N wrote: On 11/29/2012 10:32 PM, Paul Johnson wrote: Is there a compelling reason not to get parcels instead? As parcels change shape, the centroid can be easily interpolated. It's not really possible to extrapolate geometry from centroid, however. It would be useful to navigate to address points - properly placed, they will lead to the building of interest or driveway. Centroids on large parcels will frequently misdirect to a side street with no access. Right. From what I have seen, an address point layer is rooftop points. In the example of Lake County, they centered the points on top of residential structures, and for retail commercial, they put the points at the store fronts. There may be some variations, as Richard pointed out, for rural areas they may put the points at the ends of driveways. In Lake County, they put the points on the residential structure on large parcels. You can check out the Lake County data by looking at the Address Locations layer in the online map viewer: http://gis.lakecountyfl.gov/gisweb/ Parcel centroids are a fall-back position if the address points are not available. Parcel centroids do work really well for smaller residential lots. For large parcels, you can generate centroids that fall within the parcel (even for irregularly shaped parcels), but still need to properly place the points, And then for condos and multi-tenant commercial, you need more points than is in one parcel. For condos, sometimes the appraiser maps fake polygons for each condo, and you can use those as a starting point. In other cases, appraisers stack the parcel polygons on top of each other to represent condos. In other cases, they map building footprints and split them up by the number of condos in the building. And the list goes on... Brian ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] US Addressing
Here's an interesting exercise so you can see how google is doing address geocoding. In google maps, search for: 2109 Lisa Dare Dr, Leesburg, FL Make sure you have the map version turned on so you can see the parcel outlines. See the address location? Its the parcel centroid. Now look at the Lake County FL map viewer at http://gis.lakecountyfl.gov/gisweb/default.aspx and search for 2109 Lisa Dare Dr The address location is the house rooftop. Now search for 3329 US Hwy 441, Leesburg, FL in google maps. The address location is now on the street, and its not even in front of the correct parcel. Why is that? Because the parcel database does not have a 3329 US Hwy 441 address in it, and they fell back to interpolated addresses. Do the same search in the Lake County map viewer and you'll end up at the store front. This is an example of the multi-tenant retail address problem and trying to use parcels for that. So, when we import address point layers, we will be better than Google! That's assuming that the data is all that and a bag of chips. And that's why we need to be vigilant in heavily QA'ing the data before importing. Brian ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] US Addressing
On Thursday, November 29, 2012, Mike N wrote: On 11/29/2012 10:32 PM, Paul Johnson wrote: Is there a compelling reason not to get parcels instead? As parcels change shape, the centroid can be easily interpolated. It's not really possible to extrapolate geometry from centroid, however. It would be useful to navigate to address points - properly placed, they will lead to the building of interest or driveway. Centroids on large parcels will frequently misdirect to a side street with no access. So map the driveways and buildings, too. I mean, how core are we? ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] US Addressing
On Thu, Nov 29, 2012 at 10:28 PM, Paul Johnson ba...@ursamundi.org wrote: On Thursday, November 29, 2012, Mike N wrote: On 11/29/2012 10:32 PM, Paul Johnson wrote: Is there a compelling reason not to get parcels instead? As parcels change shape, the centroid can be easily interpolated. It's not really possible to extrapolate geometry from centroid, however. It would be useful to navigate to address points - properly placed, they will lead to the building of interest or driveway. Centroids on large parcels will frequently misdirect to a side street with no access. So map the driveways and buildings, too. I mean, how core are we? My hope is that we can get the best address points added to OSM then we improve on it when needed. Automating the repetitive task of address entry by converting existing government data is a huge step to getting addressing coverage. Once we get it in there we can move it/correct it in less time. We should probably decide now if the goal of OSM's address points should be rooftop or driveway points. It sounds like we're mostly in agreement that it should be rooftop. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] US Addressing
On 11/29/12 11:28 PM, Paul Johnson wrote: On Thursday, November 29, 2012, Mike N wrote: It would be useful to navigate to address points - properly placed, they will lead to the building of interest or driveway. Centroids on large parcels will frequently misdirect to a side street with no access. So map the driveways and buildings, too. I mean, how core are we? for rural routing purposes, mapping the driveways is pretty much a requirement, if for no other reason than so we can deliver routes to the foot of the driveway. richard ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] US Addressing
On 11/29/12 11:36 PM, Ian Dees wrote: On Thu, Nov 29, 2012 at 10:28 PM, Paul Johnson ba...@ursamundi.org wrote: On Thursday, November 29, 2012, Mike N wrote: So map the driveways and buildings, too. I mean, how core are we? My hope is that we can get the best address points added to OSM then we improve on it when needed. Automating the repetitive task of address entry by converting existing government data is a huge step to getting addressing coverage. Once we get it in there we can move it/correct it in less time. We should probably decide now if the goal of OSM's address points should be rooftop or driveway points. It sounds like we're mostly in agreement that it should be rooftop. roof top works as long as we provide the driveways in cases where they are long or unusual. for the garmin/mkgmap case, we have to actually attach the address to notes on the road. having the long/twisty driveways mapped helps a lot. richard ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
[Talk-us] US Addressing
Hi folks, So SteveC's blog post sparked a bit of conversation today: http://stevecoast.com/2012/11/28/openstreetmap-addressable/ I'd love to see OSM US lead the way on collecting high quality addressing data from as many places as possible and throw it in to OSM. To that end I started with this spreadsheet here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AsVnlPsfrhUIdEVZTzVFalFYYnlvTkc0R05wcUpsWVE I think we should crowd-source an effort to collect as much local addressing data as possible, convert it to OSM format, and import it. Obviously we should do it in a controlled manner and follow the usual import guidelines, but a *large* part of the work is in collecting the data in the first place and convincing municipalities to license it to us in a compatible manner. Is anyone else interested in this? I could use some help gathering volunteers to the cause. -Ian ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] US Addressing
On 11/28/12 6:35 PM, Ian Dees wrote: Is anyone else interested in this? I could use some help gathering volunteers to the cause. i am working on leveraging things so that i can import enhanced 911 address data from NYS into OSM. this will probably happen as part of my emergency response GPS map project; i am going to be meeting with some of the VFD chiefs in the Capital District of NY in the near future to continue to push this along. another thing i think i want to do is set up a concept demonstrator of what house number based address lookup might look like; i'm thinking of setting up an apache solr search engine instance on the us chapter servers as a playpen. richard ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] US Addressing
MassGIS has parcel data available in a license-ok manner, and I have been thinking about it, but not getting to it. An idea is to have a common schema or schemas for non-imported parcel data in osm format. Then people can write converters for their state/whatever and publish the data, and others can work on how to import that safely. If the whole process is broken down to a larger number of manageable steps, we'll probably get more progress - I suspect OSM has 1000 people with 2 hours each more than it has 2 people with 1000 hours. pgpl8ISkKAoiE.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] US Addressing
If it is feasible to have a (mostly) unified parcel schema, a MapRoulette challenge can be created to task the conversion work to the community. On Wed, Nov 28, 2012 at 3:56 PM, Greg Troxel g...@ir.bbn.com wrote: MassGIS has parcel data available in a license-ok manner, and I have been thinking about it, but not getting to it. An idea is to have a common schema or schemas for non-imported parcel data in osm format. Then people can write converters for their state/whatever and publish the data, and others can work on how to import that safely. If the whole process is broken down to a larger number of manageable steps, we'll probably get more progress - I suspect OSM has 1000 people with 2 hours each more than it has 2 people with 1000 hours. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us -- John Novak 585-OLD-TOPOS (585-653-8676) ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] US Addressing
the Old Topo Depot oldto...@novacell.com writes: If it is feasible to have a (mostly) unified parcel schema, a MapRoulette challenge can be created to task the conversion work to the community. I was thinking about just having a node with an address which is the centroid of the parcel, and step 1 is dropping those in. MapRoulette could be used to position them over buildings as step 2. pgpNxHlYMwaBi.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] US Addressing
On 11/28/2012 6:35 PM, Ian Dees wrote: Hi folks, So SteveC's blog post sparked a bit of conversation today: http://stevecoast.com/2012/11/28/openstreetmap-addressable/ I'd love to see OSM US lead the way on collecting high quality addressing data from as many places as possible and throw it in to OSM. To that end I started with this spreadsheet here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AsVnlPsfrhUIdEVZTzVFalFYYnlvTkc0R05wcUpsWVE I think we should crowd-source an effort to collect as much local addressing data as possible, convert it to OSM format, and import it. Obviously we should do it in a controlled manner and follow the usual import guidelines, but a *large* part of the work is in collecting the data in the first place and convincing municipalities to license it to us in a compatible manner. Is anyone else interested in this? I could use some help gathering volunteers to the cause. -Ian ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us I support this 1000%. 2013 should be the year of the addresses for OSM in the US. Addresses are sorely needed in a big way. And there's tons of accurate info that local governments have spent millions collecting already (could be hundreds of millions). I was just reading an old thread from last year on importing address info based on parcels. I can help in many areas of Florida. GIS data in FL is essentially public domain. We have very liberal open records laws. I already have parcels for the whole state, which all include site addresses (many have city and zipcode as well) as well as address points for several counties. There's a few counties with building outlines as well. For those, we could do some pre-processing to attach addresses to buildings and import that, at least for the counties where individual address points are not available and for parcels with one building. Multiple buildings and addresses per parcel are another issue. In the spreadsheet, would it make more sense to have the records by county, and split out into cities where necessary? In Florida, its the county govmts and county property appraisers that create / maintain parcels and addresses databases. I know that is not the case in some NE states, though. Brian ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] US Addressing
On 11/28/2012 8:10 PM, Jeff Meyer wrote: Does anyone have any success stories of asking localities to open up previously copyrighted data? I'm going down the just ask nicely for *really* open data path here in Seattle, but have yet to hear back from the authorities. It seems that having a list of other cities that have opened up and shared data would be a good reference tool when going to ask for looser restrictions. - Jeff -- Jeff Meyer Global World History Atlas www.gwhat.org http://www.gwhat.org j...@gwhat.org mailto:j...@gwhat.org 206-676-2347 I have an unfriendly success story for opening up access to data and removing any copyright assertions. Florida has strong open records laws. Several years ago, a few property appraisers in FL were still both charging outrageous fees for data (like $20k for a parcel shapefile) and asserting copyright over the data. A small company in Orlando filed suit against the Collier County Property Appraiser and won. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microdecisions,_Inc._v._Skinner After that case, the other appraisers who were not following state law fell in line with the law. They can still charge a reasonable fee, but they cannot assert any copyright or license over the data. As I understand it, when dealing with local governments, state law takes precedence. It appears that Washington State has liberal open records laws - after reading through this: http://www.waurisa.org/conferences/2012/presentations/09%20Josh%20Greenberg%20Governments%20role%20in%20sharing%20spatial%20information.pdf I saw on King County's GIS Data website they provide data for free download but throw some legalese in front of it asserting some kind of limited license, they own copyright, they can take away the license, etc. I'm not a lawyer, but my hunch is the license agreement is invalid, because state law takes precedence. Brian ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] US Addressing
On Wed, Nov 28, 2012 at 6:52 PM, Brian May b...@mapwise.com wrote: In the spreadsheet, would it make more sense to have the records by county, and split out into cities where necessary? In Florida, its the county govmts and county property appraisers that create / maintain parcels and addresses databases. I know that is not the case in some NE states, though. I seeded the list with the top 100 cities in the US. As we collect more data we can use the County column and leave the city column blank to keep track of the data. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] US Addressing
No Salt Lake City? Meh. I have good contacts at the State GIS and they are releasing state wide addresses Spring 2013. We're already on the move here in the boondocks. Martijn On Wed, Nov 28, 2012 at 7:15 PM, Ian Dees ian.d...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Nov 28, 2012 at 6:52 PM, Brian May b...@mapwise.com wrote: In the spreadsheet, would it make more sense to have the records by county, and split out into cities where necessary? In Florida, its the county govmts and county property appraisers that create / maintain parcels and addresses databases. I know that is not the case in some NE states, though. I seeded the list with the top 100 cities in the US. As we collect more data we can use the County column and leave the city column blank to keep track of the data. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us -- Martijn van Exel http://oegeo.wordpress.com/ http://openstreetmap.us/ ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] US Addressing
On Wed, Nov 28, 2012 at 8:22 PM, Martijn van Exel m...@rtijn.org wrote: No Salt Lake City? Meh. I have good contacts at the State GIS and they are releasing state wide addresses Spring 2013. We're already on the move here in the boondocks. I only used these cities as a start: if you (or anyone) has a thread going to get data with their area we can definitely add it to this list and keep track of your process. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] US Addressing
Sorry, I should have made this clearer: I made the document read-only because I didn't want griefers hopping in there. If you're interested in helping at all please give me your e-mail address and I'll add you as an editor. On Wed, Nov 28, 2012 at 5:35 PM, Ian Dees ian.d...@gmail.com wrote: Hi folks, So SteveC's blog post sparked a bit of conversation today: http://stevecoast.com/2012/11/28/openstreetmap-addressable/ I'd love to see OSM US lead the way on collecting high quality addressing data from as many places as possible and throw it in to OSM. To that end I started with this spreadsheet here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AsVnlPsfrhUIdEVZTzVFalFYYnlvTkc0R05wcUpsWVE I think we should crowd-source an effort to collect as much local addressing data as possible, convert it to OSM format, and import it. Obviously we should do it in a controlled manner and follow the usual import guidelines, but a *large* part of the work is in collecting the data in the first place and convincing municipalities to license it to us in a compatible manner. Is anyone else interested in this? I could use some help gathering volunteers to the cause. -Ian ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
