About release
Good evening, ladies and gentlemens It seems that it starts again and in the same maner. Nothing new. So... Lets check the facts. Please, answer honestly to the following questions: 1. Is it unstable? 2. Do you still remember about stable version policy? 3. Do you still remember, that since last official release have been fixed : (auto-generated list) [-] (#0005062) Folder colour groups were ignored while dragging and dropping on the tree [-] (#0005068) The Bat! was losing one character per line decoding MIME Base64 multiline header (coded incorrectly) [-] (#0004982) Wrong warning was displayed when adding new header field with no RFC name filled [-] (#0003403) MAPIAddress with >1 nRecips/lpRecips caused TB! to return MAPI_E_FAILURE [-] (#0005073) All user defined items have the same caption in the same container [-] (#0005042) Item added to menu cannot be hidden [-] (#0005085) Mixup with visual guide for colour group configuration. [-] (#0005087) Hidden items are visible in menu and context menu in 3.61.02 [-] (#0005088) Bad rendering of national special characters in the "Spell Checker". [-] (#0005098) Faulty HTML shuts down The Bat! [-] (#0005109) New addressbook only offers .abd extension under OTFE with some translations of The Bat! [-] (#0004820) "Mark the current message as read..." caption in the preferences dialog. [-] (#0004800) AV after click OK in 'Network & Administration' [-] (#0002962) With GnuPG, national characters in name are not displayed correctly when signature is verified or when selecting recipient certificates [-] (#0002485) The Bat! doesn't shows the checked envelope graph when a mail it's encrypted+signed with gpg [-] (#0002551) Popup window with GnuPG message doesn't display national characters [-] (#0005116) Themes disappeared in 3.61.04 build, only default is available [-] (#0005118) Unable to translate "Sample Text for this colour group" in ColourGroup Editor [-] (#0005088) Bad rendering of national characters in the "Spell Checker" [-] (#0005120) The Bat! 3.61.05 doesn't support internal control resizing [-] (#0005125) In SetMemo action adds "Text" to template after restart [-] (#0004759) No keyboard shortcut for maintenance in folder menu [-] (#0005121) The Button "cbReplyHTMLinPlain" need a new position for German translation [-] (#0005123) Can NOT select APOP authentication on receipt of email [-] (#0005126) Checkboxes ate Enter key. [-] (#0005138) "options -> message format" submenu disappears [-] (#0005151) Unable to export twice EML messages to the same dirrectory [-] (#0005151) it didn't search for the file with maximal number in name [-] (#0005150) hints about number of displayed/selected messages were not displayed [-] (#0005108) message part size was not displayed for messages using Unicode and DBCS [-] (#0005074) Organisation field was not set often when messages were replied/forwarded [-] (#0004131) Warnings were displayed behind SmartBat window, when it was set to be OnTop [-] (#612) Date formatting macros (e.g. ODATESHORT) did ignore user overrides to the locale's default date format. [-] (#0004699) IMAP folders were often reported as damaged during checking integrity [-] (#0005101) AV when clicking 'Follow' in context menu when a message browser was open by clicking a mid:/msgid: link [-] (#0005047) It was needed to open a password-protected account in order to check its mail [-] (#0004810) Editor's attachment pane position data was not stored [-] (#0004930) option to prevent a non-administrator user to edit system hot keys was not working [-] (#0004929) option to prevent a non-administrator user to customise interface was not working [-] (#0004761) SmartBat's scheduler settings were not saved (now it's time to make them working, it's WIP) [-] (#0005180) Alt+letter menu-hotkeys dosn't work in Log Window [-] (#0005186) In NFS Action "Set user param" value broken after reopening [-] (#0005194) Condition "Time of reception" doesn't work [-] (#0005189) VF created from Message Finder not shown in Folder Tree [-] (#0005207) wrong characters in some dialogs and menus [-] (#0005206) Abstract error on change of view mode [-] (#0003862) subject with \ at the start could be displayed wrong [-] (#0004776) An error with decoding some base64-encoded fields of a VCF file [-] (#0004575) Message priority was omitted during redirect [-] (#0005212) Reply without quotation was not working [-] (#0005210) Date selector was not displayed in the SmartBat [-] (#0005202) Changing of editor format was not immediately shown in the status bar [-] (#0005215) Folders with national characters in names were displayed wrong [-] (#0004848) Messages without character set stated in headers were not displayed right on IMAP [-] (#0005214) CRLFs were not translated in label in Maintenance Centre [-] (#0005213) It was not possible to use quick search in folder panes [-] (#0005224) VF names incorrectly displayed in folder tree [-] (#00052
Re: About release
Hello 9Val, Saturday, October 29, 2005, 12:12:15 AM, you wrote (possibly edited): > Are here honest people, who will note, that this is just bug-fix > changelog? And clever enough to understand, that beta-testers see > dynamics and therefore forget the difference between discrete > release versions? Or may be beta-testers think that their elite > position allows to hide that fixes from average users? One thing that became broken since the last major release is the inability to use a QT to write the subject for a message in national characters (using %SUBJECT) and also to show the recipient's name in national characters (using %ABTOHandle) again in the Subject. This has been tested and confirmed with the Greek language alphabet. Regression errors like the above should be avoided at all costs, because they cause a lot of damage to the reputation of The Bat. I don't know what it will take to fix this bug, but it's been outstanding for a very long time. -- Best regards, Costas Current beta is 3.62.03 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html IMPORTANT: To register as a Beta tester, use this link first - http://www.ritlabs.com/en/partners/testers/
Re: About release
Hello 9Val, On Sat, 29 Oct 2005 you wrote in 9> 1. Is it unstable? Not so far, seems to work fine for my use. 9> Are here honest people, who will note, that this is just bug-fix 9> changelog? And clever enough to understand, that beta-testers see 9> dynamics and therefore forget the difference between discrete 9> release versions? Or may be beta-testers think that their elite 9> position allows to hide that fixes from average users? Personally I think you have every right to sound off that way. There will always be people who want a programme to be exactly to their own specification and others who will do their utmost to try to break it and then complain about the most obscure buglet. OK, we all want a perfect programme but is there such a thing - anywhere? -- Regards, Richard | The Bat! 3.62.05 with SpamPal & POP3 account | Windows XP (build 2600), version 5. 1 Service Pack 2 | F-Prot AV, Outpost Firewall Pro 3.0.543.5722 (431) and no Plug-ins http://perso.wanadoo.fr/lazyhomes/holiday.html Current beta is 3.62.03 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html IMPORTANT: To register as a Beta tester, use this link first - http://www.ritlabs.com/en/partners/testers/
Re: About release
Hello 9Val & everyone else, on 28-Okt-2005 at 23:12 you (9Val) wrote: > 3. Do you still remember, that since last official release have been > fixed [...] You have to admit that a large number of these bugfixes is actually "getting things back to work how they used to" because you're working on internal changes with unicode support and whatnot. But, sorry Val, these don't qualify as bug fixes for me. But in reality, thats not the point why a lot of people are sad now, again. An additional test version together with the announcement that it will be the release version (despite known bugs and wishes, but to satisfy the public need for a new stable release, just as VV stated - which is completely ok for me) has been denied to your fellow community of loyal beta testers once more - and thats sad. You rely on the community for catching bugs for you, you have to give some trust back in return or you'll slowly scare away these people. I sometimes have the feeling that the betatester community does care a lot more about quality that Ritlabs itself does! I repeat my proposal that there should be a more intensive dialogue between Ritlabs and the users, at least the beta testers. Just like it has been proposed that beta testers are asked if they think the planned release version (RC1) is OK on NUMEROUS occasions. Everyone knows that "fix all bugs" is an utopic claim, but being entirely ignored is no way to deal with the people that do so much for you in their spare time. -- Best regards, Alexander (http://www.neurowerx.de - ICQ 238153981) True science teaches, above all, to doubt and, to be ignorant. -- Miguel de Unamuno Current beta is 3.62.03 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html IMPORTANT: To register as a Beta tester, use this link first - http://www.ritlabs.com/en/partners/testers/
Re: About release
Hello 9Val, As Tony is on strike :), we can have an uninterrupted, honest talk now... :)) > Are here honest people, who will note, that this is just bug-fix > changelog? And clever enough to understand, that beta-testers see > dynamics and therefore forget the difference between discrete > release versions? Or may be beta-testers think that their elite > position allows to hide that fixes from average users? It is not about that, 9Val. I would like everybody to use these new features. Really. See: you released .03. At everybody it caused AVs. So, it was strange, that it works for the developers... Now, .05 was released to the public WITHOUT testing it. You can say, it is ok, but see http://www.ritlabs.com/bt/view.php?id=5248 It is in the official release. TB! can crash! Easily. This kind of product you want to be released? Or see http://www.ritlabs.com/bt/view.php?id=5211 It is not fixed in .05... So, you made this wonderful new Message list, but see https://www.ritlabs.com/bt/view.php?id=5244 along with 5211. So? You cannot release it? Or see the Chinese characters in the Sceduler, Actions, Parameters fields... I dont remember the BT code. Or see the UTF-8 encoded Subject line's bug. All of them is very obvious bugs :(( 9Val: I am writing softwares myself. A developer cannot let this kind of build to be a public version... I dont like this atmosphere here. The guys are right, they are helping. It is a kind of working connection between RL and the beta testers. It should be constructive... I dont know, how to call it, but it is not that :(( -- Vili Current beta is 3.62.03 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html IMPORTANT: To register as a Beta tester, use this link first - http://www.ritlabs.com/en/partners/testers/
Re: About release
Hello 9Val, Quite simply the rancor comes from moving from an unstable beta (3.62.03) to a release without a "stable beta" in between. And, of course, there are all those things that individual people would like fixed because they are important to them but may not be important to the general user (or less sophisticated beta tester). The rancor is compounded by the fact that sometimes an msi beta is released for testing before release and other times (such as this) the msi just magically appears. Friday, October 28, 2005, 5:12:15 PM, you wrote: 9> 1. Is it unstable? No, by my standards and usage. 9> 2. Do you still remember about stable version policy? Probably not and some need a reminder. 9> 3. Do you still remember, that since last official release have 9> been fixed : I only remember those "bugs" that interfered with my use. And, I suspect the typical beta user only remembers those that interfere with their use as opposed to something that just bothered them. 9> Or may be beta-testers think that their elite position allows to 9> hide that fixes from average users? I am sure that no beta tester is trying to "hide" fixes from average users. At the same time, there are some beta testers who think the software should be "perfect" in every way rather than just fully functional for the typical user. For the most part, I think that people do beta testing to have a say/input into the final product. How much "say/input" varies with the individual. As such, when you moved from a seriously flawed version (3.62.03) to a stable version (3.62.05 as an msi), you knocked a few noses out of joint. If a 3.62.05 msi had been the "testing" version for 12 hours, quite possibly, none of the rancor would have surfaced. -- Best regards, Richard Newman --- Using The Bat! v3.62.05 on Windows XP 5.1 Build 2600 Service Pack 2 on a Pentium 4 1.99 GHz Current beta is 3.62.03 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html IMPORTANT: To register as a Beta tester, use this link first - http://www.ritlabs.com/en/partners/testers/
Re: About release
Hello Vili, > All of them is very obvious bugs :(( But, do you really consider any of them as showstoppers? -- Best regards, Miguel A. Urech (El Escorial - Spain) Using The Bat! v3.62.05 on Windows XP 5.1 Service Pack 2 Current beta is 3.62.03 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html IMPORTANT: To register as a Beta tester, use this link first - http://www.ritlabs.com/en/partners/testers/
Re: About release
Hello 9Val, > 3. Do you still remember, that since last official release have been > fixed : (auto-generated list) my restore is aborted further with an error message. The attach folder and the account settings were not generated. There is no way to restore the backup completely. BT: https://www.ritlabs.com/bt/view.php?id=4963 The message databases from a backup and from accounts made newly, aren't removed if I uninstall TB!. BT: https://www.ritlabs.com/bt/view.php?id=4739 MSI-Installer v3.62.05 XP Pro/SP2 -- Best regards Miroslav BAT-MAIL.DE.VU - http://bat-mail.de.vu News-Ticker: http://thebat.zetema.de/bat-mail.xml Klipfolio Klip: http://thebat.zetema.de/klipfolio Current beta is 3.62.03 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html IMPORTANT: To register as a Beta tester, use this link first - http://www.ritlabs.com/en/partners/testers/
Re: About release
Hello Vili, >>> All of them is very obvious bugs :(( >> But, do you really consider any of them as showstoppers? > > Let's put it this way: if I am proud of the software I am writing, > yes, they are. ,- [ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Showstopper ] | In software development, a showstopper is a computer bug which prevents | a project from going forward, as opposed to a minor bug which can be | documented and coped with. `- -- Best regards, Miguel A. Urech (El Escorial - Spain) Using The Bat! v3.62.05 on Windows XP 5.1 Service Pack 2 Current beta is 3.62.03 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html IMPORTANT: To register as a Beta tester, use this link first - http://www.ritlabs.com/en/partners/testers/
Re: About release
Hello Vili, > Ask any software developers, if they agree with this statement you > quoted or not. I have been in software development since 1968. Yes, 1968. :) -- Best regards, Miguel A. Urech (El Escorial - Spain) Using The Bat! v3.62.05 on Windows XP 5.1 Service Pack 2 Current beta is 3.62.03 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html IMPORTANT: To register as a Beta tester, use this link first - http://www.ritlabs.com/en/partners/testers/
Re: About release
Hi 9Val, On Sat, 29 Oct 2005, at 00:12:15 [GMT +0300] (which was 23:12 where I live) you wrote about: 'About release' > It seems that it starts again and in the same maner. Nothing new. > So... Lets check the facts. Please, answer honestly to the following > questions: > > 1. Is it unstable? What do you define as stable? If it _always_ corrupts certain attachments you can call it stable. But that doesn't mean it is useful. > 2. Do you still remember about stable version policy? > 3. Do you still remember, that since last official release have been > fixed : (auto-generated list) How many new bugs have been introduced in this version ? -- Robert van der Hulst [EMAIL PROTECTED] Using The Bat! 3.60.02 Forerunner (Beta) on Windows XP.5.1.2600 Service Pack 2 Current beta is 3.62.05 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html IMPORTANT: To register as a Beta tester, use this link first - http://www.ritlabs.com/en/partners/testers/
Re: About release
Hello Robert, Saturday, October 29, 2005, 11:46:31 AM, you wrote: > How many new bugs have been introduced in this version ? This is exactly the point which worries me very much - several times we could see that a bug fix produced (a) new bug(s) and this gives the impression that the total of bugs is still the same... -- Best regards, Martin TheBat! 3.62.05 Pro on Windows 98 4 10 A Current beta is 3.62.05 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html IMPORTANT: To register as a Beta tester, use this link first - http://www.ritlabs.com/en/partners/testers/
Re: About release
Hello Vili, Saturday, October 29, 2005, 2:12:07 PM, you wrote: V> Again: you, me, beta list members can live with these bugs. But not an V> enduser. He should not be faced any of them... Most of the time they aren't. And as for: V> I am now working in a world class research institute. We are leaders V> of our area. We accomplished this by perfecting our work. Average is V> not enough... You have to be damn good. Still: that is not the same as the best. Of course, you couldn't be working for the best, because those are never really satisfied and hence don't ever finish anything at all. :-) -- Best Wishes, Mark using The Bat! Version 3.62 MyMacros 1.11 zOmbie's Macros Version 0.7 Windows 2000 Professional/5.0 build 2195 Service Pack 4 (0 days 4:11:28) on Uno AMD Duron Current beta is 3.62.05 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html IMPORTANT: To register as a Beta tester, use this link first - http://www.ritlabs.com/en/partners/testers/
Re: About release
Hello Vili, > Then I would be ashamed, if I were you, if you agree with that > showstopper statement... No offense MAU, I really appreciate your > logical statements. No offence Vili. At my age it takes much more than that, if anything at all, to be offended :) -- Best regards, Miguel A. Urech (El Escorial - Spain) Using The Bat! v3.62.05 on Windows XP 5.1 Service Pack 2 Current beta is 3.62.05 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html IMPORTANT: To register as a Beta tester, use this link first - http://www.ritlabs.com/en/partners/testers/
Re: About release
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 28 Oct 2005, at 23:44, MAU wrote: > ,- [ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Showstopper ] > | In software development, a showstopper is a computer bug which > prevents > | a project from going forward, as opposed to a minor bug which can be > | documented and coped with. > `- > IMAP for example, for me that IS a show stopper. All the other minor bugs I could live with. Having to run a mail session for every single email takes a long while and gets very boring. Especially like today, I came home from the farm to 138 unread messages... - -- Tony Boom PGP http://www.theboomclan.com/tbc.asc -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: PGP Desktop 9.0.2 (Build 2425) Comment: T.B.C. Imac G5 20" iQA/AwUBQ2OFltanuJ+T+uXWEQKN/wCggDUeJYCZGo/4Cqr74JdUIrgYZEkAn0An 90jbHjNuweOU8FoZkd4YLe5f =jwYK -END PGP SIGNATURE- Current beta is 3.62.05 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html IMPORTANT: To register as a Beta tester, use this link first - http://www.ritlabs.com/en/partners/testers/
Re: About release
Hello 9Val, Saturday, October 29, 2005, 5:12:15 AM, you wrote: 9> It seems that it starts again and in the same maner. Nothing new. 9> So... Lets check the facts. Please, answer honestly to the following 9> questions: 9> 1. Is it unstable? 9> 2. Do you still remember about stable version policy? 9> 3. Do you still remember, that since last official release have been 9> fixed : (auto-generated list) 9> Are here honest people, who will note, that this is just bug-fix 9> changelog? And clever enough to understand, that beta-testers see 9> dynamics and therefore forget the difference between discrete 9> release versions? Or may be beta-testers think that their elite 9> position allows to hide that fixes from average users? It is unstable here (DBCS OS). The unicode/DBCS support is still poor in 3.6x series. It's even worse compare to v3.01 final. This is the reason that I still stay with v3.01. -- Best regards, Ming Changmailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Translator of Chinese The Bat! Using The Bat! v3.0.1.33 Windows 2000 Advanced Server (v5.0.2195, Service Pack 4) __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com Current beta is 3.62.05 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html IMPORTANT: To register as a Beta tester, use this link first - http://www.ritlabs.com/en/partners/testers/
Re: About release
Hello 9Val, Friday, October 28, 2005, you wrote to me: 9> 1. Is it unstable? It is unstable. But more important for me is that feature wise it is a downgrade from the v.3.0. That is why on my main computer I have TB! v.3.0.2.5. -- Best regards, Peter Gannushkin URL: http://downtownmusic.net/ Current beta is 3.62.05 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html IMPORTANT: To register as a Beta tester, use this link first - http://www.ritlabs.com/en/partners/testers/
Re: About release
--On Saturday, October 29, 2005 12:12 AM +0300 9Val <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Are here honest people, who will note, that this is just bug-fix > changelog? And clever enough to understand, that beta-testers see > dynamics and therefore forget the difference between discrete > release versions? Or may be beta-testers think that their elite > position allows to hide that fixes from average users? - There are quite a lot ... a disturbing lot who still use v2 software because it's more stable for them. - There are quite a few ... it's certainly more than the vocal more than a few, who choose to use early v3's than what was available prior to this release. Why? Works better for them. The later releases that contain long lists of bug fixes as you posted, are less stable for them. Old features that worked, no longer work, while new features they don't need are introduced. - there's no clear progression of bug fixing because of the *constant* addition of new features that not only leads to bugs directly associated with the new features. Introduction of new features all too often bring old bugs to the surface, and breaks previously working components. It's not unusual for efforts to be put into debugging the new feature and a previously working and now broken component remains neglected. So, the list is big, yes. However, the overall stability of the program is still a problem. TB! has earned a solid reputation of users fearing upgrades because it's so common for a feature that's important to them to no longer work as expected because it has been broken through the introduction of something new. The long list of fixes may seem impressive and we do appreciate the hours put into making it happen. However, sometimes, a lot of work is done and yet the end result isn't satisfactory to all involved. The one who actually does the work is the one that is usually blind to the validity of criticisms. Grumpy beta testers to this degree and for the reasons given, I've never seen before. There must be some credibility to find there. This needs exploring. - I do agree that the average user may not detect a lot of the bugs that are present. However, I do think that it's dangerous to assume that this is universally true. If you wish to chase away the passing user, just make them encounter AV's and crashes. - I've given up on TB! IMAP for now since it let me down again when put to the test with a low bandwidth situation. It's no longer fun fiddling around. I just want it to work. It will become fun again, when real changes are being made and I can test them. So since nothing much is happening for IMAP, I'll stick with apps that work all the time. -- -=Curtis=- PGPKey: http:rsakey.aimlink.name System specs: http://specs.aimlink.name -=-=- SENILE.COM found: out of memory... pgpdmfQKqUmzs.pgp Description: PGP signature Current beta is 3.62.05 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html IMPORTANT: To register as a Beta tester, use this link first - http://www.ritlabs.com/en/partners/testers/
Re: About release
A Bat-fellow, Curtis, wrote on Saturday, 29th October 2005 at 10:14:36 (GMT -0500), which was 17:14 in Bratislava -- > - There are quite a lot ... a disturbing lot who still use v2 software > because it's more stable for them. [...] Allie says it all in so many admirably eloquent and benign words once more. Here's an attempt to say the same thing in two words: TB sucks! (Well, at least since that premature v3 release. We somehow forgave Ritlabs the premature v2 release, were even foolish enough to buy v2 licences, but for the last couple of years, The Bat has built a solid reputation as an animal that mightily sucks!) -- Yours, Alex. of Slovakia www.avenarius.sk [flying with The Bat! 2.12.00 under Windows XP 5.1 Build 2600 Service Pack 2 amd athlon 2400 mhz & 704 mb ram] Current beta is 3.62.05 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html IMPORTANT: To register as a Beta tester, use this link first - http://www.ritlabs.com/en/partners/testers/
Re: About release
On Saturday, October 29, 2005 05:14 PM Curtis wrote: > - There are quite a lot ... a disturbing lot who still use v2 software > because it's more stable for them. You're right. There are even people who use v1 and are satisfied. ;) > Why? Works better for them. The later releases that > contain long lists of bug fixes as you posted, are less stable for > them. Important point here. The fixed bug list is impressive - quite sure. But you, 9Val, have to admit that there is a huge amount of bugs which were introduced by fancy features and unicode. So this whole list of fixed bugs gives a false impression when compared to things that worked in v3.0. > - I've given up on TB! IMAP for now since it let me down again when put > to the test with a low bandwidth situation. It's no longer fun fiddling > around. I no longer use TB!. However, I read the list sometimes. I really was wondering how you, as a IMAP expert, could stick to TB!. > So since nothing much is > happening for IMAP, I'll stick with apps that work all the time. Perhaps you, Ritlabs, should think about this situation. There are users who really love TB!. They used it as their own product - each day. They really know to deal with everything in the product. They paid for each new version. However, they had to realize that TB!s development is stuck. They realize that the promisses to focus on IMAP have been broken once more - for fancy tabs, which brought new bugs. Let me name you, Allie, and Tony (I really enjoy each of your comments here *g*). That's a pity and that's the point that needs discussion - nothing else. Thanks for reading. -- Manuel, http://www.manuel-breitfeld.de The opposite of a correct statement is a false statement. But the opposite of a profound truth may well be another profound truth. -- Niels Bohr Current beta is 3.62.05 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html IMPORTANT: To register as a Beta tester, use this link first - http://www.ritlabs.com/en/partners/testers/
Re: About release
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 29 Oct 2005, at 16:25, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > We somehow forgave > Ritlabs the premature v2 release I seem to remember having to wait literally years for Version 2 and then what felt like a few weeks for Version 3. I don't ever remember any talk about V3 and the first I knew about it was a email from RL with my license. - -- Tony Boom PGP http://www.theboomclan.com/tbc.asc -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: PGP Desktop 9.0.2 (Build 2425) Comment: T.B.C. Imac G5 20" iQA/AwUBQ2Od2danuJ+T+uXWEQK7qACfSgiNIpd+lqAPyo70ghSdMYATB9YAoIqg /5GjIwDMiTn/30YlPmbuwrA/ =TbXR -END PGP SIGNATURE- Current beta is 3.62.05 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html IMPORTANT: To register as a Beta tester, use this link first - http://www.ritlabs.com/en/partners/testers/
Re: About release
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 29 Oct 2005, at 16:55, Manuel Breitfeld wrote: > Let me name you, Allie, and Tony (I really enjoy each of your > comments here > *g*). That's a pity and that's the point that needs discussion - > nothing > else. I personally love The Bat! There never ever was anything quite like it, I never ever found any to match it. Until recently that is, within the past year when the quality of it started to go down hill faster that an elephant on roller skates. Now it's just another mediocre email client in a world full of mediocre email clients. As for discussing it with RL? It'd be easier to push the elephant back up the hill. It's not the client that I have a problem with, it's the marketing strategy and the attitude of RL towards the public and to us so called, beta testers. - -- Tony Boom PGP http://www.theboomclan.com/tbc.asc -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: PGP Desktop 9.0.2 (Build 2425) Comment: T.B.C. Imac G5 20" iQA/AwUBQ2OhANanuJ+T+uXWEQIyKwCgpHDSBPFidMmnk9XxE9KP6UQibAMAn1Nb wc6VX0MjHwSPGqrDZkHwuJ31 =g3PH -END PGP SIGNATURE- Current beta is 3.62.05 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html IMPORTANT: To register as a Beta tester, use this link first - http://www.ritlabs.com/en/partners/testers/
Re: About release
A Bat-fellow, Tony Boom, wrote on Saturday, 29th October 2005 at 17:05:45 (GMT +0100), which was 18:05 in Bratislava -- > I don't ever remember any talk about V3 and the first I knew about > it was a email from RL with my license. You lucky one! Perhaps if I received a free v3 licence I wouldn't be so embittered about squandering my money for version 2 that got renamed "version 3" in the midst of its development and unfinished bug-fixing. What a fool I was, laboriously compiling those webpages on Slovak and Russian reply templates those many years ago: http://avenarius.sk/bat/macros/sk.htm http://avenarius.sk/bat/macros/ru.htm Yeah, I never got around to producing the English or German version of the pages, but the Slovak and Russian pages receive regular visitors to this day and, oh my, TB! Version 1.54 Beta/7, that was the era when you could unreservedly recommend TB! to your grandmother. The future seemed bright! -- Yours whiningly, Alex. of Slovakia www.avenarius.sk [flying with The Bat! 2.12.00 under Windows XP 5.1 Build 2600 Service Pack 2 amd athlon 2400 mhz & 704 mb ram] Current beta is 3.62.05 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html IMPORTANT: To register as a Beta tester, use this link first - http://www.ritlabs.com/en/partners/testers/
Re: About release
--On Saturday, October 29, 2005 11:55 AM -0500 Greg Strong <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > At first I wasn't going to say anything, but I must admit > seeing Tony's and Allie's comments did cause me to respond. At first I wasn't going to say anything too, and then I saw 9Val's comments. As Yoda would say, 'most disturbing they were'. :) I still didn't plan to say anything wondering if it would make a difference. I decided to give the benefit of the doubt and see if it would. :) Looks like I have serious and sensible support, so for all the supportive comments, I'm grateful. :) -- -=Curtis=- PGPKey: http:rsakey.aimlink.name System specs: http://specs.aimlink.name -=-=- Originality is the art of concealing your sources. pgpTmaKMGsnrj.pgp Description: PGP signature Current beta is 3.62.05 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html IMPORTANT: To register as a Beta tester, use this link first - http://www.ritlabs.com/en/partners/testers/
Re: About release
--On Saturday, October 29, 2005 05:55 PM +0200 Manuel Breitfeld <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > You're right. There are even people who use v1 and are satisfied. ;) Ingrid (my wife) still uses a v2 build. I don't trouble it since she's never said it crashed, and it works for her. I fear that I may disturb that tranquility with an upgrade. :) > Important point here. The fixed bug list is impressive - quite sure. > But you, 9Val, have to admit that there is a huge amount of bugs > which were introduced by fancy features and unicode. So this whole > list of fixed bugs gives a false impression when compared to things > that worked in v3.0. >From my personal POV, threading no longer works the way it used to. Over versions, thread fixing and other enhancements have come our way. However, I now read TBOT threaded by subject and not references because something went wrong. There's a bug that shows its ugly face only when you're browsing massive threads. Threads that you'll likely only see on TBOT. :) Same thing with new messages being added to a threaded list. Buggy. Was not like that before. But what these aren't showstoppers. The average user will either not notice them or mind their presence. > I no longer use TB!. However, I read the list sometimes. I really was > wondering how you, as a IMAP expert, could stick to TB!. :) Hope, I guess. Hanging on in anticipation that IMAP will improve so that I eventually end up with the best of both worlds. However, my hope has now been converted to indifference. I've been involved with TB! support and these lists for so long that I haven't been treating it as just another e-mail client. I'd give it more slack and put up with it more because of the time and energy I've put into this community and the positives I've felt about its development. However, things are now quite different. > Perhaps you, Ritlabs, should think about this situation. There are > users who really love TB!. They used it as their own product - each > day. They really know to deal with everything in the product. They > paid for each new version. However, they had to realize that TB!s > development is stuck. They realize that the promisses to focus on > IMAP have been broken once more - for fancy tabs, which brought new > bugs. I actually welcome the new features, no matter what and where, provided that they don't break any other feature or behaviour in the process of adding these new features. Unfortunately, this isn't the case and the cleaning up after adding isn't, IMO, good enough. Why? This is leading to anxiety with upgrading. Anxiety based on the concern that an often used feature will no longer work quite the way it used to. Worse, the bugs with this feature that worked all along before the upgrade are then put on a low priority list since the nature of the mess up isn't that important to the average user. So what you end up with is a bunch of disgruntled *established* customers with frankly broken, semi-broken, or slightly, though annoyingly broken features that previously worked well before. These established users will then warn prospective customers that they'll likely experience the same thing if they come aboard. > Let me name you, Allie, and Tony (I really enjoy each of your > comments here *g*). cheers! :) > That's a pity and that's the point that needs discussion - nothing > else. My point exactly. -- -=Curtis=- PGPKey: http:rsakey.aimlink.name System specs: http://specs.aimlink.name -=-=- Originality is the art of concealing your sources. pgpYeT6ZwbSq3.pgp Description: PGP signature Current beta is 3.62.05 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html IMPORTANT: To register as a Beta tester, use this link first - http://www.ritlabs.com/en/partners/testers/
Re: About release
Manuel, On 29-10-2005 17:55, you [MB] wrote in : MB> Important point here. The fixed bug list is impressive - quite sure. MB> But you, 9Val, have to admit that there is a huge amount of bugs MB> which were introduced by fancy features and unicode. I'd say that unicode - although not used by me personally - is a big and worthy addition IMO. The other stuff is eye-candy. MB> So this whole list of fixed bugs gives a false impression when MB> compared to things that worked in v3.0. Agreed. MB> Perhaps you, Ritlabs, should think about this situation. There are MB> users who really love TB!. Like me. MB> However, they had to realize that TB!s development is stuck. They MB> realize that the promisses to focus on IMAP have been broken once MB> more - for fancy tabs, which brought new bugs. Exactly. For the life of me, I cannot understand why we get all the other stuff (e.g. the tabs and - more importantly - the bugs they bring with them) _before_ fixing IMAP which as been promised forever! The betas that said IMAP fixes never really came through (although I had better IMAP in TB before I have now) - suddenly the focus was changed to "interface" and other new stuff. As I see it, the biggest problem is that Ritlabs never f i n i s h e s anything, sure, new stuff is added but it is never followed though, never completed so that _all_ major bugs are ironed out. OK, so if there is a small interface glitch, that some text is wrong in an IMAP dialog, but that queuing does not work properly and that remote outbox is not working - this is not even "major" - this is the _backbone_ of IMAP. I will definitely NOT pay for any more TB! versions, unless I get the IMAP I was promised in - not in version 3 - no, in version 2 (TWO)! -- Best regards Peter Fjelsten 3.62.01 Pro MyGate, AVG 4 POP3, 7 IMAP (UWIMAP 2002e) & 1 IMAP (Exchange 6.5), 175K msgs. Windows XP 5.1 Build 2600 Service Pack 2 Current beta is 3.62.05 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html IMPORTANT: To register as a Beta tester, use this link first - http://www.ritlabs.com/en/partners/testers/
Re: About release
On Saturday, October 29, 2005 08:32 PM, Peter Fjelsten wrote: >> Important point here. The fixed bug list is impressive - quite sure. >> But you, 9Val, have to admit that there is a huge amount of bugs >> which were introduced by fancy features and unicode. > > I'd say that unicode - although not used by me personally - is a big and > worthy addition IMO. That's the way it is. TB! _needs_ unicode support. I just wanted to point out that the "enormous" bug-list is misleading, since many bugs come from new features. e.g. unicode, which development process was interrupted by... fancy tabs. It's the "never finishing of anything" (thanks a mil, exactly the right point!) that breaks TB!. It's the "never finishing of anything" that makes the end-user and/or beta-list member cry and give up. Thanks for your comments, Peter. I fully agree with you! -- Manuel, http://www.manuel-breitfeld.de Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense. -- Gautama Buddha Current beta is 3.62.05 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html IMPORTANT: To register as a Beta tester, use this link first - http://www.ritlabs.com/en/partners/testers/
Re: About release
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Peter Fjelsten wrote: > I will definitely NOT pay for any more TB! versions, unless I get the > IMAP I was promised in - not in version 3 - no, in version 2 (TWO)! I conclude: Ritlabs lost a long year customer who recommended TheBat! in past to numerous users. Michael - -- Jabber [EMAIL PROTECTED] - OpenPGP 0xE59FD50D Glück ist ein Stuhl, der plötzlich dasteht, wenn man sich zwischen zwei andere setzen will. (George Bernard Shaw) -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2 (MingW32) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFDY8VcwSeWjeWf1Q0RAkWkAJ9emDKBw+cYqkDpk0Lj9AySYSz6WACgyt3z BLz+QkO0rBA9Bu17otn3i2A= =pPE0 -END PGP SIGNATURE- Current beta is 3.62.05 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html IMPORTANT: To register as a Beta tester, use this link first - http://www.ritlabs.com/en/partners/testers/
Re: About release
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 29 Oct 2005, at 17:42, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > You lucky one! I don't think I'm a lucky one. I like to think I contributed in some way over the years and that's why I got a gratis upgrade. That's probably while I feel the way I do now, I feel let down, upset. It got to the stage where I felt I cared more about the program than RL did. But I'm passed that now, let them get on with it. Even the most die hard, dedicated Bat lover of many years standing has openly admitted this week that he's given up using TB because it simply don't work. In the words of the great Brian Adams, "Nothings gonna last for ever" so why worry. - -- Tony Boom PGP http://www.theboomclan.com/tbc.asc -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: PGP Desktop 9.0.2 (Build 2425) Comment: T.B.C. Imac G5 20" iQA/AwUBQ2POctanuJ+T+uXWEQItwwCdF+jeB7Uw+E0Rj7cOiEOMoE6nSeYAni1p pm0O7b8jCHQbsJtTVR+RD0S4 =EtCt -END PGP SIGNATURE- Current beta is 3.62.05 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html IMPORTANT: To register as a Beta tester, use this link first - http://www.ritlabs.com/en/partners/testers/
Re: About release
Curtis wrote: - I've given up on TB! IMAP for now since it let me down again when put to the test with a low bandwidth situation. It's no longer fun fiddling around. I just want it to work. It will become fun again, when real changes are being made and I can test them. So since nothing much is happening for IMAP, I'll stick with apps that work all the time. It's a core issue. At it's core, TB! is supposed to be a fully functional e-mail client, ie send/receive mail by POP, POPS, SMTP, IMAP and IMAPS; period, dot, end of mission statement. Everything else is ancillary to this function and is not a core feature. What we have here is a rotten core with a bunch cool features hung on it. That just won't do, it is called an e-mail client for a reason, but it doesn't do that job. But, by goodness, we can filter and file what we can't receive... Makes sense to me... :( I said it before and I'll say it again... Using an e-mail client requires the end-user to completely trust the developer to deliver a product that will allow that end-user to reliably communicate without the client losing, eating, ignoring etc. e-mails. To me, that trust is gone and will not easily be replaced. I no longer recommend TB! to others and I have had a few business clients inquire about TB!; the answer is no, it is not to be trusted with critical business communications, especially in an IMAP environment. It's high time to put the horse back in front of the cart -- Mike Current beta is 3.62.05 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html IMPORTANT: To register as a Beta tester, use this link first - http://www.ritlabs.com/en/partners/testers/
Re: About release
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 29 Oct 2005, at 17:55, Greg Strong wrote: > Now 9Val I do appreciate your comments. Per > mid:[EMAIL PROTECTED] you suggest that IMAP queue > will be subject of next beta series. Since IMAP has been kind of front > and center on TBBETA for so long, I would suggest that RL follow > through with this statement. I have a theory about that, not being a programmer I'm probably way off the mark. However through bit's of info I've gleaned mainly from Gary and Allie I've formed my own opinion. The way TB handles IMAP is totally different to any other, Mulberry for example. The way TB spools, stores or caches IMAP data is what causes the problems, that's the IMAP route RL chose to take and to correct it would mean a *complete rewrite* and that's why RL are skirting round the issue, sweeping it under the carpet and appeasing people with fancy bells, whistles tabs and functions, so many functions in fact that no one person could possibly hope to use them all. And that, to my untrained eye, is why the IMAP issue is being so blatantly evaded. Why do we need tabs? I've got a complete folder tree that serves exactly the same purpose. Why do we need a notepad? Every Windows user on the planet already has notepad. Why did we need a new icon set? Bugger all wrong with the old ones. Why do we need IMAP? We don't, POP works perfectly well. (RL policy not mine) Why do we need The Bat? We don't, Thunderbird, Mulberry, Mail2 all work perfectly well. How many people have already asked themselves that question? Just look and see how many list members are NOT using The Bat anymore, myself included. Yes, there are plenty of people who think TB is the best thing since sliced bread, but they obviously have lower expectations and far standards than some of us. I also think, judging by the personal mail that I've received in the past, that a lot of people aren't brave enough to voice their opinion on the subject in public. I'm off to TBOT now to talk about something serious, cheese, key lime pie, Marcks haircut, Rubeo's haircut even or maybe fishnet stockings :) - -- Tony Boom PGP http://www.theboomclan.com/tbc.asc -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: PGP Desktop 9.0.2 (Build 2425) Comment: T.B.C. Imac G5 20" iQA/AwUBQ2PW7NanuJ+T+uXWEQIfMACgmVJIxG/NVJspH9SuApUNAtTOOkoAnAoX S5hUiH2grpfjP73aFBXtACBY =EQYq -END PGP SIGNATURE- Current beta is 3.62.05 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html IMPORTANT: To register as a Beta tester, use this link first - http://www.ritlabs.com/en/partners/testers/
Re: About release
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 29 Oct 2005, at 18:42, Curtis wrote: > However, my hope has now been converted to indifference. I've been > involved with TB! support and these lists for so long that I haven't > been treating it as just another e-mail client. I'd give it more slack > and put up with it more because of the time and energy I've put into > this community and the positives I've felt about its development. > However, things are now quite different. Allie, you've taken the words right out of my mouth. I could not have expressed it better. My fuse however was probably a few months shorter that yours. - -- Tony Boom PGP http://www.theboomclan.com/tbc.asc -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: PGP Desktop 9.0.2 (Build 2425) Comment: T.B.C. Imac G5 20" iQA/AwUBQ2PX5NanuJ+T+uXWEQJS4ACg3LoXicBAwQdhDMFxjfQU5Xtl7u8AoJMz Pu7u/BnRLvgiSr6DHPbKqqUE =IcTL -END PGP SIGNATURE- Current beta is 3.62.05 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html IMPORTANT: To register as a Beta tester, use this link first - http://www.ritlabs.com/en/partners/testers/
Re: About release
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 29 Oct 2005, at 19:45, Manuel Breitfeld wrote: > Thanks for your comments, Peter. I fully agree with you! Seconded. It's like half baked bread, smells gorgeous, tastes bloody awful. - -- Tony Boom PGP http://www.theboomclan.com/tbc.asc -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: PGP Desktop 9.0.2 (Build 2425) Comment: T.B.C. Imac G5 20" iQA/AwUBQ2PY5NanuJ+T+uXWEQJJugCg/tndKfwMZHLxo7VyfHBNGvuZsnMAnR3Y pMBJFztdY2l9yapYNzms9PCz =1xWS -END PGP SIGNATURE- Current beta is 3.62.05 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html IMPORTANT: To register as a Beta tester, use this link first - http://www.ritlabs.com/en/partners/testers/
Re: About release
Hello Alexander, ASK> You have to admit that a large number of these bugfixes is actually ASK> "getting things back to work how they used to" because you're working on ASK> internal changes with unicode support and whatnot. But, sorry Val, these ASK> don't qualify as bug fixes for me. Anyway it is part of work MUST be done and it will take the same time/efforts now or later. ASK> I repeat my proposal that there should be a more intensive dialogue between ASK> Ritlabs and the users, at least the beta testers. Just like it has been ASK> proposed that beta testers are asked if they think the planned release ASK> version (RC1) is OK on NUMEROUS occasions. Everyone knows that "fix all ASK> bugs" is an utopic claim, but being entirely ignored is no way to deal with ASK> the people that do so much for you in their spare time. Agree with you, but, as you can see in this list, the latest .61.14 beta has positive feedback until reporting the bug with openning scheduler. So, it was a little fix in the chain of fixes, when one of programmers has lost control... All problems in .62 versions were just different appereances of one bug, which had to be eliminated soon, but unfortunately, took too much time and nerves (both your and our). Agree, that it would be much better if I described my confidence in fast bug-fix *before* than *after* and I'll try to avoid such problems in future. -- 9Val Current beta is 3.62.05 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html IMPORTANT: To register as a Beta tester, use this link first - http://www.ritlabs.com/en/partners/testers/
Re: About release
Hello Peter, 9>> 1. Is it unstable? PG> It is unstable. But more important for me is that feature wise it is a PG> downgrade from the v.3.0. That is why on my main computer I have TB! PG> v.3.0.2.5. Currently zero level is 3.60.07 and this version is above zero. What about downgrade... as I remember you had troubles with russian charsets, Alt-clicking, and speller languages in single hotkey? Work with charsets and Unicode is not finished yet. And we can't freeze it for another half-a-year to be completely done. -- 9Val Current beta is 3.62.05 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html IMPORTANT: To register as a Beta tester, use this link first - http://www.ritlabs.com/en/partners/testers/
Re: About release
Hello Greg, GS> Well I saw the troops circling followed by 9Val putting up a staunch GS> defense. No defense, I'm just want to clarify the situation and show the another side. GS> Now 9Val I do appreciate your comments. Per GS> mid:[EMAIL PROTECTED] you suggest that IMAP queue GS> will be subject of next beta series. Yes, it is. And now, after release, it could be developed, because all this time it was delayed. -- 9Val Current beta is 3.62.05 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html IMPORTANT: To register as a Beta tester, use this link first - http://www.ritlabs.com/en/partners/testers/
Re: About release
Hello Tony, On Sat, 29 Oct 2005 21:09:15 +0100 GMT (30/10/2005, 03:09 +0700 GMT), Tony Boom wrote: TB> I also think, judging by the personal mail that I've received in the TB> past, that a lot of people aren't brave enough to voice their opinion TB> on the subject in public. Curtis and you are encouraging us lurkers to comment. In my opinion, TB is still the best POP client out there, but that's because I haven't looked around since v1.34a. I am told now that the features I use most, filtering and completely seperate POP accounts, are available in other email clients by now, and some things are handled better. Would I recommend TB to my colleagues? Not at this stage. Here is why: 1.) If you have more than 10 filter conditions, you will have to wait several seconds (several minutes in case of 100 filter conditions) before the conditions are shown. This started with the NFS. 9Val says that's the way it is, period. For me, that's when I stopped recommending TB for "superior filtering". What good is a filtering system with an unacceptable behaviour when adding new filters, or even looking at the existing ones? 9Val has set the priority to low, so I guess RL is not interested in heavy users of the filtering system any more. https://www.ritlabs.com/bt/view.php?id=4000 http://www.ritlabs.com/bt/view.php?id=4937 https://www.ritlabs.com/bt/view.php?id=3412 2.) Also, people have correspondence with incoming and outgoing mail. for each new communication partner, they have to manually create two filters. Other clients have an option to just save the reply in the same folder as the original message. I'm ready to set up a filter, but there is no way I can explain why in TB two filters have to be set up. https://www.ritlabs.com/bt/view.php?id=3319 3.) And the last major reason why TB is not the perfect client is that it does not download images from the internet. Those who want to protect themselves from themselves by dumbing down the email client are not doing TB a favour. While a whitelist might not be the best solution, at least give us a botton. http://www.ritlabs.com/bt/view.php?id=1780 4.) One serious shortcoming has been fixed: In this latest beta series, I cannow see all recipients of an email message, and if the list of recipients is longer than one line, TB will open another line. this was a problem, because I cannot expect from my colleagues to press shft-crtl-K and look at all headers. This ridiculous thing has fortunately been fixed. 5.) Not fixed has been the shortcoming that if I set TB to download messages no bigger than 500K, and then this one mail comes in with an attachment of 1MB which I need, I have to go to the despatcher and manually find this mail in order to download it. Highly impractical for my colleagues, what with 3000 messages on the server at any given time (mails are being moved to archive after 30 days). Where is that button "download complete mail at next mailcheck" that Eudora already had 10 years ago? Cannot find the URL to the wishlist item. These are POP-related problems that make me wonder who RL's target group is. Chat functions, Message list tabs, roguemoticons - all nice little toys I enjoy to play with. However, I miss the seriousness in developing a commercial email client. As I side remark, I don't think it is impractical to follow professional software development lifecycle standards and send a release candidate to the beta list before releasing it. And I do think it is professional courtesy to inform the beta community of a release. -- Cheers, Thomas. Regular naps prevent old age. especially if you take them while driving. http://thomas.fernandez.hat-gar-keine-homepage.de/ Message reply created with The Bat! 3.62.05 under Windows XP 5.1 Build 2600 Service Pack 2 Current beta is 3.62.05 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html IMPORTANT: To register as a Beta tester, use this link first - http://www.ritlabs.com/en/partners/testers/
Re: About release
Hello 9Val, On Sun, 30 Oct 2005 03:07:22 +0300 GMT (30/10/2005, 07:07 +0700 GMT), 9Val wrote: GS>> Now 9Val I do appreciate your comments. Per GS>> mid:[EMAIL PROTECTED] you suggest that IMAP queue GS>> will be subject of next beta series. 9> Yes, it is. And now, after release, it could be developed, because all 9> this time it was delayed. You may not know this, but IMAP was promised for v2 and has been delayed ever since. Nobody believes it will be en par with existing IMAP clients in the next beta circle. Prove us wrong. -- Cheers, Thomas. Hit any user to continueeSigns Your Co-Worker Is A Hacker: http://thomas.fernandez.hat-gar-keine-homepage.de/ Message reply created with The Bat! 3.62.05 under Windows XP 5.1 Build 2600 Service Pack 2 Current beta is 3.62.05 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html IMPORTANT: To register as a Beta tester, use this link first - http://www.ritlabs.com/en/partners/testers/
Re: About release
Hello Vili, Sunday, October 30, 2005, 6:01:09 AM, you wrote: > Hello Thomas, >> 1.) If you have more than 10 filter conditions, you will have to wait >> several seconds (several minutes in case of 100 filter conditions) > Curiosity: is there ANY email client, that can handle this much filter > condition? Yes. Outlook Express :) -- Best regards, Vilius Current beta is 3.62.05 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html IMPORTANT: To register as a Beta tester, use this link first - http://www.ritlabs.com/en/partners/testers/
Re: About release
Hello Thomas, > 1.) If you have more than 10 filter conditions, you will have to wait > several seconds (several minutes in case of 100 filter conditions) > before the conditions are shown. The NFS gives possibility to create complex conditions and to see the conditions in more understandable way - it's an advantage in comparison to the OFS. The drawback is that a lot of Windows controls must be created and handled. We must overcome the slowness, but it is not a trivial thing to do - either a new condition editor control must be written or we should optimise the way the exiting controls are being handled. Before we find a solution, I would recommend a trick that would help in most cases - instead of numerous conditions of the same type I would recommend to use a single condition with multiple alternatives, i.e. instead of Sender contains [EMAIL PROTECTED] OR Sender contains [EMAIL PROTECTED] OR Sender contains [EMAIL PROTECTED] ... OR Sender contains [EMAIL PROTECTED] you should use Sender contains any of [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] This may even make condition evaluation a bit faster. > 2.) Also, people have correspondence with incoming and outgoing mail. for > each new communication partner, they have to manually create two > filters. Other clients have an option to just save the reply in the > same folder as the original message. I'm ready to set up a filter, but > there is no way I can explain why in TB two filters have to be set up. > https://www.ritlabs.com/bt/view.php?id=3319 Basically, incoming and outgoing filters have different semantics and context: senders and recipients are changing over, source folders are different, possible action sets may become different in future... I don't see a wide range of tasks that require same sets of actions for both incoming and outgoing messages. Another thing is handling of filters available for different categories - it must be possible to specify position of "multipurpose" filters in files lists in each category, how sub-filters must be processed, what to do if a filter is deleted from a category, etc. etc. It's not that simple as it may look. For very specific you are talking about (i.e. placing messages to/from a single sender), it is possible to use a pair of incoming/outgoing filters that looks for a presence of a sender/recipient in a specific address group and moves message to a folder determined by template like Friends\%ABFROMNAME (%ABTONAME for outgoing filter). This way, you may have just two filters for a range of correspondents. Well, it may be tricky, but it's an elegant solution IMO. Another possibility should become available soon - specifying the folder to store a message in for each new message and providing macros for doing so. This is a long standing wish and it was already given as a task to the team. > 3.) And the last major reason why TB is not the perfect client is that it > does not download images from the internet. It's just another long standing wish which was almost put into production recently, but the developer was thrown into fixing his bugs in other area. So, this is going to be implemented as soon as he fixes his bugs. I believe I was talking about this many moons ago, but I'm not sure whether it was in private or in some TB! ML - this is a planned feature which will be implemented, but nobody knows when exactly. When it will be implemented, it will come with three options: always on, always off, always confirm with possibility to select images to download. By default, it will be either off or confirm with all images deselected (except whitelisted). > 4.) One serious shortcoming has been fixed: In this latest beta series, I > cannow see all recipients of an email message, and if the list of > recipients is longer than one line, TB will open another line. this > was a problem, because I cannot expect from my colleagues to press > shft-crtl-K and look at all headers. This ridiculous thing has > fortunately been fixed. It required complete rewriting the message header component and took long time, but I'm glad that's worth it. It also removed a problem with Ctrl+Shift selection in a header field. The component is now available only for viewing, the next Beta series (I believe) will include adding editing capabilities to it as well as some other valuable additions like LDAP lookup for address fields and some other... > 5.) Not fixed has been the shortcoming that if I set TB to download > messages no bigger than 500K, and then this one mail comes in with an > attachment of 1MB which I need, I have to go to the despatcher and > manually find this mail in order to download it. This is another long standing wish, I agree. It just keeps falling off the to-do list from each Beta series and we must add it to the "hot" list now. I won't go deep into explaining why it ha
Re: About release
Hi Thomas, GS>>> you suggest that IMAP queue will be subject of next beta series. 9>> Yes, it is. And now, after release, it could be developed, because all 9>> this time it was delayed. TF> You may not know this, but IMAP was promised for v2 and has been TF> delayed ever since. Nobody believes it will be en par with existing TF> IMAP clients in the next beta circle. Prove us wrong. We are talking about IMAP queue, new version of it was already presented to public, it was just delayed because of near release. -- 9Val Current beta is 3.62.07 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html IMPORTANT: To register as a Beta tester, use this link first - http://www.ritlabs.com/en/partners/testers/
Re: About release
9Val, On 30-10-2005 14:38, you [9] wrote in : TF>> You may not know this, but IMAP was promised for v2 and has been TF>> delayed ever since. Nobody believes it will be en par with existing TF>> IMAP clients in the next beta circle. Prove us wrong. 9> We are talking about IMAP queue, new version of it was already 9> presented to public, it was just delayed because of near release. You must admit that IMAP was promised for version 2. I think that few IMAP users would call IMAP fully functioning in version 3, let alone version 2. True the new queue may be one thing that needs to be changed but that does not change the fact that TB IMAP still have some distance to go. For the current status seen from my perspective, try this -- Best regards Peter Fjelsten 3.62.01 Pro MyGate, AVG 4 POP3, 7 IMAP (UWIMAP 2002e) & 1 IMAP (Exchange 6.5), 175K msgs. Windows XP 5.1 Build 2600 Service Pack 2 Current beta is 3.62.07 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html IMPORTANT: To register as a Beta tester, use this link first - http://www.ritlabs.com/en/partners/testers/
Re: About release
Hello 9Val, 9>>> 1. Is it unstable? PG>> It is unstable. But more important for me is that feature wise it is a PG>> downgrade from the v.3.0. That is why on my main computer I have TB! PG>> v.3.0.2.5. 9> Currently zero level is 3.60.07 and this version is above zero. What do you mean by saying "zero level"? 9> What about downgrade... as I remember you had troubles with russian 9> charsets, Alt-clicking, and speller languages in single hotkey? 9> Work with charsets and Unicode is not finished yet. And we can't 9> freeze it for another half-a-year to be completely done. Yes, Alt-clicking and speller hot keys are the main things why I didn't upgrade. Automatic spell checker is an issue too, although not a great one. What I think is wrong about TB! development is that while adding new features the old one are being constantly broken and getting disappeared. It shouldn't be the case. When the new interface came along the first thing which should have happened was the implementation of the current feature set. However it didn't happen that way. More and more things were introduced after that but still the basic things were not working properly. At the end you will have no time at all to fix them since each new feature is a new set of bugs and problems. PS Spell checker is totally wrong in the TB! It was OK to have it like this in 1996 but it is not OK to have it like this now. Even tiny programs like Semagic have the free multi-language spell checkers where you can check the text in several languages simultaneously and download any language file for free. -- Best regards, Peter Gannushkin URL: http://downtownmusic.net/ Current beta is 3.62.07 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html IMPORTANT: To register as a Beta tester, use this link first - http://www.ritlabs.com/en/partners/testers/
Re: About release
Hello 9Val, Saturday, October 29, 2005, you wrote to me: 9>>> 1. Is it unstable? PG>> It is unstable. But more important for me is that feature wise it is a PG>> downgrade from the v.3.0. That is why on my main computer I have TB! PG>> v.3.0.2.5. 9> Currently zero level is 3.60.07 and this version is above zero. What 9> about downgrade... as I remember you had troubles with russian 9> charsets, Alt-clicking, and speller languages in single hotkey? One show-stopper I forgot to mention. Clickable links are not longer working in a new message header component. Since internal spam filtering never worked properly for me, I use POPfile to filter the spam. Each message gets an extra header with the link to its place in the POPfile's database. These links do not work any longer in the new version. -- Best regards, Peter Gannushkin URL: http://downtownmusic.net/ Current beta is 3.62.07 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html IMPORTANT: To register as a Beta tester, use this link first - http://www.ritlabs.com/en/partners/testers/
Re: About release
Hello Stefan, On Sun, 30 Oct 2005 13:29:32 +0200 GMT (30/10/2005, 18:29 +0700 GMT), Stefan Tanurkov wrote: Thanks for replying at length. I appreciate it. >> 1.) If you have more than 10 filter conditions, you will have to wait >> several seconds (several minutes in case of 100 filter conditions) >> before the conditions are shown. ST> The NFS gives possibility to create complex conditions and to see the conditions ST> in more understandable way - it's an advantage in comparison to the OFS. Granted. ST> The drawback is that a lot of Windows controls must be created and ST> handled. I understand this. However, it is impossible to explain it to my colleagues. They just want the software to work as expected, not get an explanation why they have to wait several seconds or even minutes to update a filter. ST> We must overcome the slowness, but it is not a trivial thing to do ST> - either a new condition editor control must be written or we ST> should optimise the way the exiting controls are being handled. I hope you find that solution soon, so that I can proudly recommend TB again. ST> Before we find a solution, I would recommend a trick that would help in most ST> cases - instead of numerous conditions of the same type I would recommend to use ST> a single condition with multiple alternatives, i.e. instead of [...] 9Val recommended the same workaround, but failed to advise how I can easily convert my hundreds of filters. I did try this workaround with three example filters but didn't get it to work. >> 2.) Also, people have correspondence with incoming and outgoing >> mail. [...] I'm ready to set up a filter, but there is no way I can >> explain why in TB two filters have to be set up. >> https://www.ritlabs.com/bt/view.php?id=3319 ST> Basically, incoming and outgoing filters have different semantics and context: ST> senders and recipients are changing over, I filter on Headers. ST> source folders are different, Inbox versus Sent. ST> possible action sets may become different in future... Not in my example, which I think is not very unusual. But if they do, different filters will have to be created, this is normal. ST> I don't see a wide range of tasks that require same sets of ST> actions for both incoming and outgoing messages. Well I do: If Header contains <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> move to Folder X. That's what almost all of my incoming and outgoing filters do. The set-up is the exact same for Incoming and Outgoing. OK, the source folders are different (Inbox versus Sent), but take a look at the BT report mentioned above, and a tickmark can set set it to both or either. ST> Another thing is handling of filters available for different categories - it ST> must be possible to specify position of "multipurpose" filters in files lists in ST> each category, how sub-filters must be processed, what to do if a filter is ST> deleted from a category, etc. etc. It's not that simple as it may look. OK, we are talking shop now. My suggestion is as follows: I assume you have one module/procedure for incoming filters, one for outgoing filters. Let's ignore for a moment that a lot of code may be duplicated. Instead of calling the modules for each category directly, the Sorting Office could call a superior module which calls the category modules depending on the tickmarks. I do think that the code duplication is unneccessary in the case of Incoming/Outgoing filters, as the only difference is the source folder. I am not using Read and Selective download filters, so I don't comment about those. ST> For very specific you are talking about (i.e. placing messages to/from a single ST> sender), it is possible to use a pair of incoming/outgoing filters that looks for ST> a presence of a sender/recipient in a specific address group and moves message ST> to a folder determined by template like Friends\%ABFROMNAME (%ABTONAME for ST> outgoing filter). This way, you may have just two filters for a range of ST> correspondents. Well, it may be tricky, but it's an elegant solution IMO. No, this is exactly what I criticise. I need to update two filters each time something changes, where one update should be sufficient. As mentioned earlier, I have hundreds of filters, all of them with multiple conditions (up to over a hundred conditions per filter). ST> Another possibility should become available soon - specifying the folder to ST> store a message in for each new message and providing macros for doing so. This ST> is a long standing wish and it was already given as a task to the team. I'm not exactly sure this would do what I mean, but I'm looking forward to it. >> 3.) And the last major reason why TB is not the perfect client is that it >> does not download images from the internet. ST> It's just another long standing wish which was almost put into production ST> recently, but the developer was thrown into fixing his bugs in other area. ST> So, this is going to be implemented as soon as he fixes his bugs.
Re: About release
On Saturday, October 29, 2005, 9:55:15 AM, Manuel Breitfeld wrote: > huge amount of bugs which were introduced by fancy features and > unicode I seem to recall that there has been a loud and long clammer for unicode. If I am recalling correctly then, leaving alone the possible discussion about differentiating between fancy features, it isn't fair to lump fancy features and unicode and be equally critical of both. -- Dwight A. Corrin 928 S Broadway Wichita KS 67211 316.303.1411 fax 316.265.7568 dcorrin at fastmail.fm Using The Bat! 3.62.08 on Windows XP version 5,1 Current beta is 3.62.07 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html IMPORTANT: To register as a Beta tester, use this link first - http://www.ritlabs.com/en/partners/testers/
Re: About release
On Saturday, October 29, 2005, 12:45:23 PM, Manuel Breitfeld wrote: > which development process was interrupted by... fancy tabs. I was begging since v.1 for better ways to deal with flagged and parked messages and consider the tabs as a long overdue correction of a missing feature, not a fancy addition. -- Dwight A. Corrin 928 S Broadway Wichita KS 67211 316.303.1411 fax 316.265.7568 dcorrin at fastmail.fm Using IMAP with The Bat! 3.62.08 on Windows XP version 5,1 Current beta is 3.62.07 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html IMPORTANT: To register as a Beta tester, use this link first - http://www.ritlabs.com/en/partners/testers/
Re: About release
Hi Dwight, > I seem to recall that there has been a loud and long clammer for > unicode. If I am recalling correctly then, leaving alone the possible > discussion about differentiating between fancy features, it isn't fair > to lump fancy features and unicode and be equally critical of both. The point is, that there is i.e. urgent demand for working unicode support. But instead of concentrating to implement reliable working unicode or at first, a lot of nice looking but also not functioning features have adulterated TheBat!. So all you have now is a big bunch of crappy features that sound great in theory and drive you crazy in practice. And furthermore - sloppy unicode - halfhearted IMAP etc. for years now. Yepp. Years. IMAP was promised for v2 which was released in September 2003. But absolutely unusable. Some improvements since then (and one fullprice upgrade) but still poor compared to nearly each other client which calls itself IMAP capable. Michael -- Jabber [EMAIL PROTECTED] - OpenPGP 0xE59FD50D TheBat! 3.62.08 - Windows XP (Service Pack 2 Build 2600) Eigentlich sollte man einen Menschen nicht bemitleiden, besser ist es, ihm zu helfen. (Maksim Gorkij) PGP oder S/MIME-Verschlüsselung erwünscht! pgphDWHvWBgmO.pgp Description: PGP signature Current beta is 3.62.07 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html IMPORTANT: To register as a Beta tester, use this link first - http://www.ritlabs.com/en/partners/testers/
Re: About release
Hi Vili, Am Sunday, October 30, 2005, 6:32:28 PM, schriebst du: >> in September 2003. But absolutely unusable. Some improvements since then >> (and one fullprice upgrade) > Upgrade is 50%. And why did you pay it, if it was not worth it??? Improvements were made, more were promised and there was a thought which sounds like "ok. they get their chance and you support a small software company, they can use the money". A failure as I know now. But if this is your only question or your only comment about what I wrote, it's really poor and you seem to know for sure that this is the truth but you have no excuses left. Michael -- Jabber [EMAIL PROTECTED] - OpenPGP 0xE59FD50D TheBat! 3.62.08 - Windows XP (Service Pack 2 Build 2600) Neues in Sachen Virenschutz: Das Festplattenkondom! PGP oder S/MIME-Verschlüsselung erwünscht! pgpGkK4vRAitj.pgp Description: PGP signature Current beta is 3.62.07 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html IMPORTANT: To register as a Beta tester, use this link first - http://www.ritlabs.com/en/partners/testers/
Re: About release
Hi Vili, Am Sunday, October 30, 2005, 6:46:40 PM, schriebst du: > Someone does not answer other parts of the mail, because agrees with > that, dont you think. But lets be explicite: Oh, I apologize :-) I made other experiences with other users so I misunderstood you. Michael -- Jabber [EMAIL PROTECTED] - OpenPGP 0xE59FD50D TheBat! 3.62.08 - Windows XP (Service Pack 2 Build 2600) Alle Chirurgen sind Aufschneider. PGP oder S/MIME-Verschlüsselung erwünscht! pgpo32IRY0xpQ.pgp Description: PGP signature Current beta is 3.62.07 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html IMPORTANT: To register as a Beta tester, use this link first - http://www.ritlabs.com/en/partners/testers/
Re: About release
Hello 9Val & everyone else, on 30-Okt-2005 at 14:38 you (9Val) wrote: TF>> You may not know this, but IMAP was promised for v2 and has been TF>> delayed ever since. Nobody believes it will be en par with existing TF>> IMAP clients in the next beta circle. Prove us wrong. > We are talking about IMAP queue, new version of it was already > presented to public, it was just delayed because of near release. I'm not following the whole IMAP issue closely, but nevertheless, I don't understand this. Why? Because we're missing in-depth information here. Was the new IMAP queue part of a past beta version already, and has it been removed again? If so, why wasn't this information part of the changelog, or did I overlook this? -- Best regards, Alexander (http://www.neurowerx.de - ICQ 238153981) We are preparing our children for an unknown world. -- Margaret Mead Current beta is 3.62.07 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html IMPORTANT: To register as a Beta tester, use this link first - http://www.ritlabs.com/en/partners/testers/
Re: About release
Hello Stefan Tanurkov & everyone else, on 30-Okt-2005 at 12:29 you (Stefan Tanurkov) wrote: > I am sorry for lack of communication with testers and users, but it takes > really long time and we have too much job to do and, as I told you > before, we are limited in resources. I'm puzzled - again. Just from looking at the sheer number of coders that are assigned to BT reports (9Val, VV, Maxim, Diman, you... forgot someone for sure, sorry), I always thought there were many programmers, and that *this* is the reason why "fancy features" make it into the program while people are waiting for bug fixes - my understanding was, that not everyone is an IMAP guru and thus only few people can work on the IMAP issues, while others care for the GUI and whatnot. From what you say now however, for some it must be even less understandable that new features are introduced while other bugs remain. In the end, whats really missing for me: a *plan*, and I don't mean your vision of the program, but a set of rules when and how a new official version is released. In other, and very direct words: who makes the m*r*n decision to release a "final" overnight, without a Release Candidate, without a final chance for the beta testers to catch the last minute glitch? This is more than chaotic. I mean... all of a sudden, there's a 3.62.08 version in the MSI package, and no one knows about it, your website only says "3.62 has been released" per 28th of October. But that final includes three versions until now (3.62.05, 3.62.07, 3.62.08) - how would a user that is not on TBBETA, who downloaded the "3.62 final" Friday night, know that there's a more recent version in the installer, now that its Sunday? There's nothing wrong in putting a statement on the website that a last minute bug was fixed past the first release, thats nothing to be ashamed of. The hastily release of "3.62 final" seems to bounce back at you quite heavily... please, take a DEEP DEEP breath and start acting with reason again, because, release-wise, it rather feels like chaos at the moment, and that IS something to be ashamed of. -- Best regards, Alexander (http://www.neurowerx.de - ICQ 238153981) We don't like their sound, and guitar music is on the way out. -- Decca Recording Co. rejecting the Beatles, 1962 Current beta is 3.62.07 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html IMPORTANT: To register as a Beta tester, use this link first - http://www.ritlabs.com/en/partners/testers/
Re: About release
Hello Gleason Pace & everyone else, on 30-Okt-2005 at 19:40 you (Gleason Pace) wrote: > My only request is that one day I should have a TB that really works > well. Someone from Ritlabs should send you a reply. "Dear Gleason, we promise you, one day you'll have a TB that really works well". If that is precise enough for you - great! -- Best regards, Alexander (http://www.neurowerx.de - ICQ 238153981) Deliplayer2 is playing: "Dirtbath" (5:04) by Freeworm from the 2000 album 'Interior Horizons' Current beta is 3.62.07 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html IMPORTANT: To register as a Beta tester, use this link first - http://www.ritlabs.com/en/partners/testers/
Re: About release
Hi Gleason, Am Sunday, October 30, 2005, 7:40:49 PM, schriebst du: > I am critical of TB too, but I really don't see how lecturing the > programmers in this way helps. It really doesn't matter to me when TB > makes releases or how much I know in advance about releases, or how > RIT manages division of labor. My only request is that one day I > should have a TB that really works well. Perhaps Ritlabs reconsider their product politics if they read what their "income" thinks? The way it _is_ has no future. Michael -- Jabber [EMAIL PROTECTED] - OpenPGP 0xE59FD50D TheBat! 3.62.08 - Windows XP (Service Pack 2 Build 2600) Kunst ist schön. Macht aber viel Arbeit. (Karl Valentin) PGP oder S/MIME-Verschlüsselung erwünscht! pgpQ83Vs993gQ.pgp Description: PGP signature Current beta is 3.62.07 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html IMPORTANT: To register as a Beta tester, use this link first - http://www.ritlabs.com/en/partners/testers/
Re: About release
Hello Alexander, ASK> Was the new IMAP queue part of a past beta version already, and ASK> has it been removed again? Yes, it was presented in beta/10 and beta/11. Reason of removal - it was not fully debugged before release ASK> If so, why wasn't this information part of the changelog, or did ASK> I overlook this? You overlooked msgid:[EMAIL PROTECTED] >[-] IMAP revert to old queue -- 9Val Current beta is 3.62.07 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html IMPORTANT: To register as a Beta tester, use this link first - http://www.ritlabs.com/en/partners/testers/
Re: About release
Hello Alexander, ASK> In other, and very direct words: who makes the m*r*n decision to release a ASK> "final" overnight, without a Release Candidate, without a final chance for ASK> the beta testers to catch the last minute glitch? It was my decision, all stones to me. ASK> This is more than chaotic. I mean... all of a sudden, there's a 3.62.08 ASK> version in the MSI package, and no one knows about it, your website only ASK> says "3.62 has been released" per 28th of October. Well known practice of silently replace release version with more stable version. 3.62.08 differs from 3.62.07 *only* in one bug fix, 5144, as I remember... That bug was reported *only* by one person in TBBETA and has *only* his vote on the BT. That's why .08 was released without TBBETA information (unlike .07 and .05) , while reporter has PM with announcement of it. ASK> But that final includes ASK> three versions until now (3.62.05, 3.62.07, 3.62.08) - how would a user ASK> that is not on TBBETA, who downloaded the "3.62 final" Friday night, know ASK> that there's a more recent version in the installer, now that its Sunday? If user has any problems with it, he could ask tech. support for help. And it is supporter job to know all known bugs of releases and point to the best suitable version to check fix. -- 9Val Current beta is 3.62.07 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html IMPORTANT: To register as a Beta tester, use this link first - http://www.ritlabs.com/en/partners/testers/
Re: About release
Hello Peter, 9>> Currently zero level is 3.60.07 and this version is above zero. PG> What do you mean by saying "zero level"? Stability is relative. For end user it mostly measures relative to the previous release. PG> PS Spell checker is totally wrong in the TB! It was OK to have it like PG> this in 1996 but it is not OK to have it like this now. Even tiny PG> programs like Semagic have the free multi-language spell checkers PG> where you can check the text in several languages simultaneously and PG> download any language file for free. Problems with spellcheckers have some not-programmers roots... And currently there is no way to make both sides happy. -- 9Val Current beta is 3.62.07 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html IMPORTANT: To register as a Beta tester, use this link first - http://www.ritlabs.com/en/partners/testers/
Re: About release
Hello 9Val & everyone else, on 30-Okt-2005 at 22:17 you (9Val) wrote: ASK>> If so, why wasn't this information part of the changelog, or did I ASK>> overlook this? > You overlooked msgid:[EMAIL PROTECTED] >>[-] IMAP revert to old queue Oh, OK. Sorry for the superfluous question. I read that as being an improvement. :) -- Best regards, Alexander (http://www.neurowerx.de - ICQ 238153981) Deliplayer2 is playing: "Elastic crystals In Motion" (8:18) by Omnimotion from the 2000 album 'Interior Horizons' Current beta is 3.62.07 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html IMPORTANT: To register as a Beta tester, use this link first - http://www.ritlabs.com/en/partners/testers/
Re: About release
Hello 9Val & everyone else, on 30-Okt-2005 at 22:27 you (9Val) wrote: ASK>> In other, and very direct words: who makes the m*r*n decision to ASK>> release a "final" overnight, without a Release Candidate, without a ASK>> final chance for the beta testers to catch the last minute glitch? > It was my decision, all stones to me. Don't worry, that won't happen... (in the end, I'm a friendly person, and I couldn't throw that far, anyway). ASK>> This is more than chaotic. I mean... all of a sudden, there's a ASK>> 3.62.08 version in the MSI package, and no one knows about it, your ASK>> website only says "3.62 has been released" per 28th of October. > Well known practice of silently replace release version with more stable > version. 3.62.08 differs from 3.62.07 *only* in one bug fix, 5144, as I > remember... That bug was reported *only* by one person in TBBETA and has > *only* his vote on the BT. That's why .08 was released without TBBETA > information (unlike .07 and .05) , while reporter has PM with > announcement of it. [...] > If user has any problems with it, he could ask tech. support for help. > And it is supporter job to know all known bugs of releases and point to > the best suitable version to check fix. Thats still problematic for me. A simple update notification, and clearly mentioning *which* version is in the MSI, right *on* the website, together with a changelog, will primarily help *YOU* - because people who may stumble over the same bug will find that there's a fix available already. Even though its only theoretical - if I downloaded 3.62 on friday and look on the site today, I would think I'm all up to date, and maybe even report an already fixed bug again. You can safe yourself the time and effort to handle this and concentrate on the meat of things, which I consider from a programmers PoV, a good thing. :-) -- Best regards, Alexander (http://www.neurowerx.de - ICQ 238153981) Deliplayer2 is playing: "Elastic crystals In Motion" (8:18) by Omnimotion from the 2000 album 'Interior Horizons' Current beta is 3.62.07 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html IMPORTANT: To register as a Beta tester, use this link first - http://www.ritlabs.com/en/partners/testers/
Re: About release
Hello Thomas, ST>> Before we find a solution, I would recommend a trick that would help in most ST>> cases - instead of numerous conditions of the same type I would recommend to use ST>> a single condition with multiple alternatives, i.e. instead of > > [...] > > 9Val recommended the same workaround, but failed to advise how I can > easily convert my hundreds of filters. I did try this workaround with > three example filters but didn't get it to work. I think it should be relatively easy using an editor like TextPad or UltraEdit. -- Best regards, Miguel A. Urech (El Escorial - Spain) Using The Bat! v3.62.07 on Windows XP 5.1 Service Pack 2 Winamp Playing: Simply Red - Perfect Love (Smoothjazz.Com - The worlds best Smooth Jazz - Live From Monterey Bay) Current beta is 3.62.07 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html IMPORTANT: To register as a Beta tester, use this link first - http://www.ritlabs.com/en/partners/testers/
Re: About release
Hello Stefan, > Another possibility should become available soon - specifying the folder to > store a message in for each new message and providing macros for doing so. > This > is a long standing wish and it was already given as a task to the team. > I think what most people is asking for is that when you reply to a message in a folder, the reply goes to the same folder. I think this would be fairly easy if the FOLDERNAME macro, or a similar one, would get the complete folder path and not just the name. This macro could be used in reply templates to set the Comments or other custom header, and then an outgoing filter could grab this header and use it in the Move action. -- Best regards, Miguel A. Urech (El Escorial - Spain) Using The Bat! v3.62.07 on Windows XP 5.1 Service Pack 2 Winamp Playing: Warren Hill - Turn out the Lights (Smoothjazz.Com - The worlds best Smooth Jazz - Live From Monterey Bay) Current beta is 3.62.07 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html IMPORTANT: To register as a Beta tester, use this link first - http://www.ritlabs.com/en/partners/testers/
Re: About release
On Saturday, October 29, 2005, 2:09:15 PM, Tony Boom wrote: > Why do we need The Bat? We don't, Thunderbird, Mulberry, Mail2 all > work perfectly well. why do we need computers, when we have pencil, paper, and morse code? -- Dwight A. Corrin 928 S Broadway Wichita KS 67211 316.303.1411 fax 316.265.7568 dcorrin at fastmail.fm Using IMAP with The Bat! 3.62.08 on Windows XP version 5,1 Current beta is 3.62.07 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html IMPORTANT: To register as a Beta tester, use this link first - http://www.ritlabs.com/en/partners/testers/
Re: About release
On Sunday, October 30, 2005, 9:37:54 AM, Vili wrote: > Hello Stefan, > Thanks for this honest mail. ditto. -- Dwight A. Corrin 928 S Broadway Wichita KS 67211 316.303.1411 fax 316.265.7568 dcorrin at fastmail.fm Using IMAP with The Bat! 3.62.08 on Windows XP version 5,1 Current beta is 3.62.07 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html IMPORTANT: To register as a Beta tester, use this link first - http://www.ritlabs.com/en/partners/testers/
Re: About release
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 31 Oct 2005, at 02:26, Dwight A Corrin wrote: > why do we need computers, when we have pencil, paper, and morse code? And I'm fluent in morse code... Or I used to be a few years ago. - -- Tony Boom PGP http://www.theboomclan.com/tbc.asc -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: PGP Desktop 9.0.2 (Build 2425) Comment: T.B.C. Imac G5 20" iQA/AwUBQ2XQodanuJ+T+uXWEQKwiACg6hKlnbU1LHupBZsO8E0x87eEHpMAoNk0 Ers8PXxDxmsZnCz91Te9tgDm =HPZy -END PGP SIGNATURE- Current beta is 3.62.07 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html IMPORTANT: To register as a Beta tester, use this link first - http://www.ritlabs.com/en/partners/testers/
Re: About release
Dwight A Corrin wrote: >> Why do we need The Bat? We don't, Thunderbird, Mulberry, Mail2 all >> work perfectly well. > > why do we need computers, when we have pencil, paper, and morse code? If you compare TheBat! with pencil and paper, you have to assume that every new pencil works different compared to last one and if you inform the manufacturer about one issue you either get no response or you find yourself in a situation like this: the lead of pencil v3.71.08.5 pre-beta97 breaks if you write three words in a row. In v3.71.08.7 post-aplha35 (where are the steps between?!) the lead now has a different color but still breaks after three written words. And in v3.72.12 final5 there's no lead at all - but it comes with a mailchat function. Happy Halloween Michael -- Jabber [EMAIL PROTECTED] - OpenPGP 0xE59FD50D Um klar zu sehen, genügt oft ein Wechsel der Blickrichtung. (Antoine de Saint-Exupery) signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature Current beta is 3.62.07 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html IMPORTANT: To register as a Beta tester, use this link first - http://www.ritlabs.com/en/partners/testers/
Re: About release
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 31 Oct 2005, at 09:22, Michael Schneider wrote: > And in v3.72.12 final5 there's no lead at all - but it comes with > a mailchat function. Your powers of analogy are excellent, love it :) - -- Tony Boom PGP http://www.theboomclan.com/tbc.asc -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: PGP Desktop 9.0.2 (Build 2425) Comment: T.B.C. Imac G5 20" iQA/AwUBQ2XngtanuJ+T+uXWEQIE4wCgo4hZr1VouPqCKbjpF/KL6FiQ0iEAoKRG yUSQVPOpdCgxUwy7ZVcw7B7/ =d17i -END PGP SIGNATURE- Current beta is 3.62.07 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html IMPORTANT: To register as a Beta tester, use this link first - http://www.ritlabs.com/en/partners/testers/
Re: About release
Tony Boom wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 31 Oct 2005, at 08:12, Cees wrote: right, Inspector Morse, I presume? :) But do you know my first name? Endeavour -- Mike Current beta is 3.62.07 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html IMPORTANT: To register as a Beta tester, use this link first - http://www.ritlabs.com/en/partners/testers/
Re: About release
Hi Alexander, >> It was my decision, all stones to me. ASK> (in the end, I'm a friendly person, and I couldn't throw that ASK> far, anyway). Are you so friendly only because couldn't throw that far? ;) -- 9Val Current beta is 3.62.07 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html IMPORTANT: To register as a Beta tester, use this link first - http://www.ritlabs.com/en/partners/testers/
Re: About release
Hello MAU, On Mon, 31 Oct 2005 00:58:28 +0100 GMT (31/10/2005, 06:58 +0700 GMT), MAU wrote: >> 9Val recommended the same workaround, but failed to advise how I can >> easily convert my hundreds of filters. I did try this workaround with >> three example filters but didn't get it to work. M> I think it should be relatively easy using an editor like TextPad or M> UltraEdit. Now, is that sarcasm or irony? -- Cheers, Thomas. If you're born again, do you have two bellybuttons? http://thomas.fernandez.hat-gar-keine-homepage.de/ Message reply created with The Bat! 3.62.07 under Windows XP 5.1 Build 2600 Service Pack 2 Current beta is 3.62.07 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html IMPORTANT: To register as a Beta tester, use this link first - http://www.ritlabs.com/en/partners/testers/
Re: About release
Hello Alto, On Sun, 30 Oct 2005 23:53:35 +0100 GMT (31/10/2005, 05:53 +0700 GMT), Alto Speckhardt wrote: AS> You also have to finally adress age-old bugs like the AS> MicroEd-EOL-handling. This also remains open since v1, despite massive AS> discussions on this list. Please refresh my memory. I have no EOL problem in MicroEd. -- Cheers, Thomas. Salmon day: Swimming upstream all day to get screwed in the end. http://thomas.fernandez.hat-gar-keine-homepage.de/ Message reply created with The Bat! 3.62.07 under Windows XP 5.1 Build 2600 Service Pack 2 Current beta is 3.62.07 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html IMPORTANT: To register as a Beta tester, use this link first - http://www.ritlabs.com/en/partners/testers/
Re: About release
Hello MAU, On Mon, 31 Oct 2005 01:12:43 +0100 GMT (31/10/2005, 07:12 +0700 GMT), MAU wrote: M> I think what most people is asking for is that when you reply to a M> message in a folder, the reply goes to the same folder. Yes. M> I think this would be fairly easy if the FOLDERNAME macro, or a similar M> one, would get the complete folder path and not just the name. This M> macro could be used in reply templates to set the Comments or other custom M> header, and then an outgoing filter could grab this header and use it in M> the Move action. No. Do you really want me to explain this to my colleagues? My suggestion to to put a tickmark in an obvious place, saying "store replies in the same folder as the original message". I understand other email clients offer this. -- Cheers, Thomas. Fettflecken werden wie neu, wenn man sie regelmaessig mit Butter beschmiert. http://thomas.fernandez.hat-gar-keine-homepage.de/ Message reply created with The Bat! 3.62.07 under Windows XP 5.1 Build 2600 Service Pack 2 Current beta is 3.62.07 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html IMPORTANT: To register as a Beta tester, use this link first - http://www.ritlabs.com/en/partners/testers/
Re: About release
Thomas, On 31-10-2005 17:27, you [TF] wrote in : TF> My suggestion to to put a tickmark in an obvious place, saying TF> "store replies in the same folder as the original message". I TF> understand other email clients offer this. I agree. I also think it should be easier to have incoming and outgoing mail end up in the same folder. The need to have 2 filters for (almost) everything is a bit much. Of course the current filtering system should remain intact. We could have a new filter type with the same Simple where you would not have Sender and Recipient but just a Correspondent field in the Conditions. Eudora has (had?) and option "Put sent messages in the same folder as original". -- Best regards Peter Fjelsten 3.62.01 Pro MyGate, AVG 4 POP3, 7 IMAP (UWIMAP 2002e) & 1 IMAP (Exchange 6.5), 175K msgs. Windows XP 5.1 Build 2600 Service Pack 2 Current beta is 3.62.07 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html IMPORTANT: To register as a Beta tester, use this link first - http://www.ritlabs.com/en/partners/testers/
Re: About release
Hello Thomas, M>> I think it should be relatively easy using an editor like TextPad or M>> UltraEdit. > > Now, is that sarcasm or irony? Neither :) I really believe it should be easy. Copy one of your filters and send it to me as a TXT file and I will return you the edited one. You'll owe me a beer for each OR I replace, though ;-) -- Best regards, Miguel A. Urech (El Escorial - Spain) Using The Bat! v3.62.08 on Windows XP 5.1 Service Pack 2 Current beta is 3.62.07 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html IMPORTANT: To register as a Beta tester, use this link first - http://www.ritlabs.com/en/partners/testers/
Re: About release
Hello 9Val, On Sun, 30 Oct 2005 23:32:08 +0200 GMT (31/10/2005, 04:32 +0700 GMT), 9Val wrote: 9> Stability is relative. That is worth an entry in my tagline file. Mind you, I don't have a stability problem with TB. -- Cheers, Thomas. Signs Your Co-Worker Is A Hacker: When asked for their phone number, they give it in hex. http://thomas.fernandez.hat-gar-keine-homepage.de/ Message reply created with The Bat! 3.62.07 under Windows XP 5.1 Build 2600 Service Pack 2 Current beta is 3.62.07 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html IMPORTANT: To register as a Beta tester, use this link first - http://www.ritlabs.com/en/partners/testers/
Re: About release
Hello MAU, On Mon, 31 Oct 2005 17:39:44 +0100 GMT (31/10/2005, 23:39 +0700 GMT), MAU wrote: >> Now, is that sarcasm or irony? M> Neither :) I really believe it should be easy. Copy one of your filters M> and send it to me as a TXT file and I will return you the edited one. You missed the point. Unless you are volunterring to convert my colleagues files as well... M> You'll owe me a beer for each OR I replace, though ;-) I can't do that. I'd be responsible for you becoming an alcoholic. ;-) -- Cheers, Thomas. This afternoon there will be a meeting in the south and north ends of the church. Children will be baptized at both ends. http://thomas.fernandez.hat-gar-keine-homepage.de/ Message reply created with The Bat! 3.62.07 under Windows XP 5.1 Build 2600 Service Pack 2 Current beta is 3.62.07 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html IMPORTANT: To register as a Beta tester, use this link first - http://www.ritlabs.com/en/partners/testers/
Re: About release
Hello Thomas, M>> Neither :) I really believe it should be easy. Copy one of your filters M>> and send it to me as a TXT file and I will return you the edited one. > > You missed the point. Unless you are volunterring to convert my > colleagues files as well... No, I'm just volunteering to do it once, proof the concept and teach you how to do it :) M>> You'll owe me a beer for each OR I replace, though ;-) > > I can't do that. I'd be responsible for you becoming an alcoholic. ;-) I don't have to drink them all in one day, or have I? ;-) -- Best regards, Miguel A. Urech (El Escorial - Spain) Using The Bat! v3.62.08 on Windows XP 5.1 Service Pack 2 Current beta is 3.62.07 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html IMPORTANT: To register as a Beta tester, use this link first - http://www.ritlabs.com/en/partners/testers/
Re: About release
Hello Thomas, M>> I think this would be fairly easy if the FOLDERNAME macro, or a similar M>> one, would get the complete folder path and not just the name. This M>> macro could be used in reply templates to set the Comments or other custom M>> header, and then an outgoing filter could grab this header and use it in M>> the Move action. > > No. Do you really want me to explain this to my colleagues? My > suggestion to to put a tickmark in an obvious place, saying "store > replies in the same folder as the original message". I understand > other email clients offer this. This was just let's say a 'concept suggestion' for Stephan which could be implemented transparently to the user. Why? Because you may reply to a message in folder //Account_1//Folder_1/Sub-folder_A and put it in the Outbox. But then, when it gets sent, you may be in a completely different folder and maybe even in a different account. So, how does Account_1 'sending engine' know in which folder it has to place your message? Do you follow me? An special header, that could even be 'transparent' to the user and removed at send time, could easily be used for this purpose. -- Best regards, Miguel A. Urech (El Escorial - Spain) Using The Bat! v3.62.08 on Windows XP 5.1 Service Pack 2 Current beta is 3.62.07 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html IMPORTANT: To register as a Beta tester, use this link first - http://www.ritlabs.com/en/partners/testers/
Re: About release
Hello Alto Speckhardt & everyone else, on 30-Okt-2005 at 23:53 you (Alto Speckhardt) wrote: > You also have to finally adress age-old bugs like the > MicroEd-EOL-handling. This also remains open since v1, despite massive > discussions on this list. Thats not a bug, thats a feature, as it has been discussed massively on the list. You should file a wish and ask for support, if you haven't done so already. If someone would want it to be addressed as a bug, please point me to the BT entry so I can put a not supporting note to it. :-D -- Best regards, Alexander (http://www.neurowerx.de - ICQ 238153981) I tell you that I can trace my ancestry back to a protoplasmic primordial atomic globule. -- Gilbert & Sullivan Current beta is 3.62.07 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html IMPORTANT: To register as a Beta tester, use this link first - http://www.ritlabs.com/en/partners/testers/
Re: About release
Hello Alto, ASK>> You should file a wish and ask for support, if you haven't done ASK>> so already. > > What do you think _this_ is? > He means in https://www.ritlabs.com/bt/main_page.php -- Best regards, Miguel A. Urech (El Escorial - Spain) Using The Bat! v3.62.08 on Windows XP 5.1 Service Pack 2 Current beta is 3.62.07 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html IMPORTANT: To register as a Beta tester, use this link first - http://www.ritlabs.com/en/partners/testers/
Re: About release
Hello Alto Speckhardt & everyone else, on 31-Okt-2005 at 19:45 you (Alto Speckhardt) wrote: > Let's not start this whole discussion all over again No one mentioned it during the last months, you did. Go figure. :-) -- Best regards, Alexander (http://www.neurowerx.de - ICQ 238153981) If one synchronized swimmer drowns, do the rest have to drown too? Current beta is 3.62.07 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html IMPORTANT: To register as a Beta tester, use this link first - http://www.ritlabs.com/en/partners/testers/
Re: About release
Hello Alto, > With "auto format" enabled MicroEd is unable to distinguish between > two following lines that are not seperated by a third containing only > a return. This is because of line-oriented (contrary to paragraph-oriented) nature of MicroEd text representation. You can use Windows Editor if you want paragraph-oriented behaviour. -- Best regards, Stefanmailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Current beta is 3.62.07 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html IMPORTANT: To register as a Beta tester, use this link first - http://www.ritlabs.com/en/partners/testers/
Re: About release
Hello Alto, > Please excuse me, but we had all this in abundant detail a few months > ago. I think I have clearly demonstrated then why the current TB-way > is unfit It's not TB's behaviour, it's MicroEd's behaviour. If you don't like MicroEd's behaviour, you can use Windows editor. The behaviour you want from MicroEd cannot be implemented there because it does not use "soft" linefeeds. If it will start using soft linefeeds, it will become Windows Editor and will have different functionality. That's what I'm trying to say. There is a plan to write a new version of MicroEd that will support proportional fonts, Unicode and optional soft linefeeds, but the current volume of work just allocates this in distant future. :-( -- Best regards, Stefanmailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Current beta is 3.62.07 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html IMPORTANT: To register as a Beta tester, use this link first - http://www.ritlabs.com/en/partners/testers/
Re: About release
Hello Alto, > It's still not fixed. There is nothing to fix - this has been repeated hundreds of times. MicroEd works as designed. -- Best regards, Stefanmailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Current beta is 3.62.07 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html IMPORTANT: To register as a Beta tester, use this link first - http://www.ritlabs.com/en/partners/testers/
Re: About release
Hello Thomas, ST>> The drawback is that a lot of Windows controls must be created and ST>> handled. > I understand this. However, it is impossible to explain it to my > colleagues. That's why I recommended to use "combo" conditions instead of separate ones. > 9Val recommended the same workaround, but failed to advise how I can > easily convert my hundreds of filters. I guess, we should make some filter optimiser, so it would provide an easy way to combine several similar conditions into one combo... ST>> Another thing is handling of filters available for different categories - it ST>> must be possible to specify position of "multipurpose" filters in files lists in ST>> each category, how sub-filters must be processed, what to do if a filter is ST>> deleted from a category, etc. etc. It's not that simple as it may look. > OK, we are talking shop now. My suggestion is as follows: > I assume you have one module/procedure for incoming filters, one for > outgoing filters. Let's ignore for a moment that a lot of code may be > duplicated. There is no question about code and processing of such filters, nothing to be duplicated. Some new code must be written to support such a behaviour. Adding some checkboxes in filter options is not a problem - the problem is how we handle it further. Here is a possible model of behaviour: ticking a checkbox means that a filter must appear in the filter list corresponding to the checkbox. Where? Let's say at the end of the list. So, the same filter appears in different places of the SO and we should keep an eye on it. What to do if a filter has sub-filters? Do we automatically mark them all to be used in other filtering lists or we prompt whether a user wants to do so? OK, let's add sub-filters to other filtering list. What if a sub-filter is already has a tick mark to be used in that list? What to do if a filter is present in several filtering lists and you want to delete it? Should it be removed from the list you are currently in or from all other lists or should we allocate two different commands for deletion? You see, it's quite complex and I'm afraid many people would just get scared by the complexity. I'm not saying it's not possible to implement, I'm just trying to figure out how to implement it so that inexperienced users can easily understand what they are doing... ST>> This is another long standing wish, I agree. It just keeps falling off the to-do ST>> list from each Beta series and we must add it to the "hot" list now. > Thank you! Yes, this is "hot", please don't let it cool down again. I didn't - the .09 build has the feature. A notification about large message contains an URL that leads to opening the Mail Dispatcher with only that message listed, so you can decide what to do with it. > Just let us know your priorities. Well, we try to, but it's always a problem to stick to a plan because there are too many things we can't predict... -- Best regards, Stefanmailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Current beta is 3.62.07 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html IMPORTANT: To register as a Beta tester, use this link first - http://www.ritlabs.com/en/partners/testers/
Re: About release
Hello Alto, >>> It's still not fixed. ST>> There is nothing to fix - this has been repeated hundreds of ST>> times. MicroEd works as designed. > So does terrorism. That doesn't mean it's a good thing. AFAIK, lots of people like it. No matter what parallels you draw. What about Windows Editor? Why don't you want to use it? -- Best regards, Stefanmailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Current beta is 3.62.07 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html IMPORTANT: To register as a Beta tester, use this link first - http://www.ritlabs.com/en/partners/testers/
Re: About release
Hello Alto, ST>> It's not TB's behaviour, it's MicroEd's behaviour. If you don't ST>> like MicroEd's behaviour, you can use Windows editor. > The windows-editor doesn't know a thing about quote handling, > reformating or many other features intrinsic for writing emails. > Intrinsic to me, that is. Well, this is because quote handling and reformatting suitable for line-oriented plain text editor. Paragraph-oriented editor can provide some similar functionality if it provides rich text editing, but if output is plain text, we have problems when storing a message as a draft and then open it for editing later - plain text does not store rich text formatting. ST>> The behaviour you want from MicroEd cannot be implemented there ST>> because it does not use "soft" linefeeds. If it will start using ST>> soft linefeeds, it will become Windows Editor and will have ST>> different functionality. That's what I'm trying to say. > I disagree. Take the editor of any other email-program: Every one of > those performs adequate in this matter, with no problems at all. Do they provide quote handling and reflowing the same way MicroEd does? > Besides, "soft-LF" most certainly cannot be the reason of the dilemma: > The problem is rather that MicroEd removes hard-CRs. Each line in MicroEd ends with hard linefeed, MicroEd does not know anything about soft linefeeds. So a paragraph in MicroEd is a set of lines delimited by two empty lines. This is what "line-oriented" means. I have an idea how to make MicroEd using soft linefeeds and keep its existing features, but this requires writing a new editor, which is obviously not a one day/week/month hard job. I hope it will be done at last, but don't know when. -- Best regards, Stefan Current beta is 3.62.07 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html IMPORTANT: To register as a Beta tester, use this link first - http://www.ritlabs.com/en/partners/testers/
Re: About release
Alto Speckhardt wrote: The windows-editor doesn't know a thing about quote handling, reformating or many other features intrinsic for writing emails. Intrinsic to me, that is. MicroEd never needed things like reflow on sending, and alas, TB! doesn't have it for the Windows editor. ST> The behaviour you want from MicroEd cannot be implemented there ST> because it does not use "soft" linefeeds. If it will start using ST> soft linefeeds, it will become Windows Editor and will have ST> different functionality. That's what I'm trying to say. I disagree. Take the editor of any other email-program: Every one of those performs adequate in this matter, with no problems at all. However, they can't reflow quoted text quite as elegantly as TB! does. ThunderBird here will reformat quoted text. However, only after selecting the text to be reformatted. Same for Mulberry. Tedious. Besides, "soft-LF" most certainly cannot be the reason of the dilemma: They are. MicroEd doesn't recognise or do soft-LF's. It's the root of the issue. The problem is rather that MicroEd removes hard-CRs. If it would just leave them where I type them there would not be a problem. It doesn't recognise your hard-CR's differently from the ones it inserts itself. I guess you're speaking of the auto-format feature. While you're typing with notepad and the text is flowed as you type, soft-lf's are inserted at the end of each line in your draft. However, with autoformat, TB! inserts hard-LF's. If you put one yourself and start typing, TB! will remove it and reflow your text. If I want to end the current line, I insert a LF to continue in the next line. If after that I want an extra empty line, I insert an other LF. If I do not want one, I don't. That's it. Why does MicroEd have to make easy things that complex? Because it doesn't use soft-lf's. Unusual, yes; so that we may enjoy some of the advantages of this. But that's how it works. Everything you mention is one of the reasons for me not to use the Windows Editor. I don't need nor want all those design-options, I want an editor that performs the basic email-tasks - and stops right there without trying to second-guess me. MicroEd trys to be clever and do things without being directed to, and that's what it shouldn't do. It would help a lot if you understood what it was doing. -- -= Curtis =- PGPKey: http://rsakey.aimlink.name -=-=- Portable: survives system reboot. signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature Current beta is 3.62.07 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html IMPORTANT: To register as a Beta tester, use this link first - http://www.ritlabs.com/en/partners/testers/
Re: About release
Hello MAU, On Mon, 31 Oct 2005 17:52:25 +0100 GMT (31/10/2005, 23:52 +0700 GMT), MAU wrote: M> No, I'm just volunteering to do it once, proof the concept and teach you M> how to do it :) No that's OK, thanks for the offer. It would just teach me how to use another workaround, and that was not the point of my message. The point was that workarounds shouldn't be necessary. As long as they are, I cannot recommend TB. My personal workaround is that once a filter has reached 10 conditions, I will create a new one for additional conditions. Both filters will do exactly the same, namely moving messages to folders based on email domains found in headers. I'm not converting the filters that havbe many more conditions, I just hope I don't have to open them for editing addresses. M>>> You'll owe me a beer for each OR I replace, though ;-) >> >> I can't do that. I'd be responsible for you becoming an alcoholic. ;-) M> I don't have to drink them all in one day, or have I? ;-) You mean you can actually go to bed whilst there are still beers in the fridge? ;-) -- Cheers, Thomas. Notice in a lift: Eighth floor button out of order. Please push buttons five and three. http://thomas.fernandez.hat-gar-keine-homepage.de/ Message reply created with The Bat! 3.62.07 under Windows XP 5.1 Build 2600 Service Pack 2 Current beta is 3.62.07 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html IMPORTANT: To register as a Beta tester, use this link first - http://www.ritlabs.com/en/partners/testers/
Re: About release
Hello MAU, On Mon, 31 Oct 2005 18:02:36 +0100 GMT (01/11/2005, 00:02 +0700 GMT), MAU wrote: M> This was just let's say a 'concept suggestion' for Stephan which could M> be implemented transparently to the user. Oh, I thought you wanted the user to use that macro. M> Why? Because you may reply to a message in folder M> //Account_1//Folder_1/Sub-folder_A and put it in the Outbox. But M> then, when it gets sent, you may be in a completely different M> folder and maybe even in a different account. So, how does M> Account_1 'sending engine' know in which folder it has to place M> your message? Do you follow me? Yes. It's an idea, but it would be worth looking how other clients accomplish that. I don't think they add transparent headers. -- Cheers, Thomas. This afternoon there will be a meeting in the south and north ends of the church. Children will be baptized at both ends. http://thomas.fernandez.hat-gar-keine-homepage.de/ Message reply created with The Bat! 3.62.07 under Windows XP 5.1 Build 2600 Service Pack 2 Current beta is 3.62.07 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html IMPORTANT: To register as a Beta tester, use this link first - http://www.ritlabs.com/en/partners/testers/
Re: About release
Hello Stefan, On Tue, 1 Nov 2005 01:09:43 +0200 GMT (01/11/2005, 06:09 +0700 GMT), Stefan Tanurkov wrote: >> I understand this. However, it is impossible to explain it to my >> colleagues. ST> That's why I recommended to use "combo" conditions instead of separate ones. OK, but still looks more like a workaround. >> 9Val recommended the same workaround, but failed to advise how I can >> easily convert my hundreds of filters. ST> I guess, we should make some filter optimiser, so it would provide an easy way ST> to combine several similar conditions into one combo... Yes, that's a good idea. >> I assume you have one module/procedure for incoming filters, one for >> outgoing filters. Let's ignore for a moment that a lot of code may be >> duplicated. ST> There is no question about code and processing of such filters, nothing to be ST> duplicated. Some new code must be written to support such a behaviour. Adding ST> some checkboxes in filter options is not a problem - OK. ST> the problem is how we handle it further. [...] What if [...] I get your point. I will think of some possible ways to handle it, maybe my input helps. I am sure all of you already have some ideas. ST> You see, it's quite complex and I'm afraid many people would just get scared by ST> the complexity. I'm not saying it's not possible to implement, I'm just trying ST> to figure out how to implement it so that inexperienced users can easily ST> understand what they are doing... I see you want to make it easy to use. That's important, thanks. [Download large message button] ST> I didn't - the .09 build has the feature. A notification about large message ST> contains an URL that leads to opening the Mail Dispatcher with only that message ST> listed, so you can decide what to do with it. Great! I'm looking forward to the announcement when it can be downloaded. >> Just let us know your priorities. ST> Well, we try to, but it's always a problem to stick to a plan because there are ST> too many things we can't predict... Tell me about it... ;-) -- Cheers, Thomas. "When your dad is mad and asks you, 'Do I look stupid?' don't answer." - Hannah, age 9 http://thomas.fernandez.hat-gar-keine-homepage.de/ Message reply created with The Bat! 3.62.07 under Windows XP 5.1 Build 2600 Service Pack 2 Current beta is 3.62.07 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html IMPORTANT: To register as a Beta tester, use this link first - http://www.ritlabs.com/en/partners/testers/
Re: About release
Alto Speckhardt wrote: Are you sure? When I modify the window size of a normal editor, the word wrap changes with the column width. Some editors allow you to window wrap while typing, or they will wrap at a set character limit. I'm referring to the latter setting. How could that be if there were markers inserted into the text instead of wrapping the text on the fly at an arbitrary placed line, either at the right window border or e.g. after the 80th column? In these editors, though the text wraps while editing, it's not in the formatting. Type some text in MicroEd. Copy and paste it to NotePad and switch off wrapping in NotePad. Note that the wrapping persists. Try the same with say .. ThunderBird or another editor. How hard can it be for MicroEd to "remember" where I pressed Enter myself? It can insert any marker it is good and ready to, why does it have to be the code for LF, of all the available characters and combinations thereof? I'll leave that query for Stephan. However, it would seem that other editors don't do this to prevent the limitation you mentioned. C> Because it doesn't use soft-lf's. Unusual, yes; so that we may C> enjoy some of the advantages of this. But that's how it works. What advantages does this system yield? Do we really have to go through this again. It was all discussed months ago. Would it? Obviously, I had no complete understanding of the system before. Now I think I do - and the problem is no easier to tolerate than before. You seem to have your mind made up already. Yes. -- -= Curtis =- PGPKey: http://rsakey.aimlink.name -=-=- HAL 9000: Dave. Put down those Windows disks, Dave. DAVE! signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature Current beta is 3.62.07 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html IMPORTANT: To register as a Beta tester, use this link first - http://www.ritlabs.com/en/partners/testers/
Re: About release
Hello Alto, > I see - another design fault, therefore. There's a lesson in here. > In any case, thanks for explaining the system to me. OK, let's stop here. I suspect we will never come to an agreement on what is this - a bug, a mammal or a mythical creature. I know we're going to make a new editor which combines MicroEd's functionality and word-processing editing style, you know that we are going to do it. Time line remains uncertain, though. -- Best regards, Stefanmailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Current beta is 3.62.07 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html IMPORTANT: To register as a Beta tester, use this link first - http://www.ritlabs.com/en/partners/testers/
Re: About release
Hello Thomas, M>> This was just let's say a 'concept suggestion' for Stephan which could M>> be implemented transparently to the user. > Oh, I thought you wanted the user to use that macro. Macro is just another option for better flexibility (e.g. adding it to AB templates). As you know, some macro options can be set separately from template. I guess, the folder to store replies in should be set at the same page where reply template is located. -- Best regards, Stefanmailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Current beta is 3.62.07 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html IMPORTANT: To register as a Beta tester, use this link first - http://www.ritlabs.com/en/partners/testers/
Re: About release
Hello Alto Speckhardt & everyone else, on 01-Nov-2005 at 03:00 you (Alto Speckhardt) wrote: > This editor already can do what you explain MicroEd can't do today. So far, it is you alone who wants MicroEd to behave differently. You consider it a bug, others (including the programmers) consider it "working as designed" (I do so, too). Now, I for one refuse to have something "fixed", because a single user regards a feature working as it is a bug. And as long as there is no consensus whether this is a bug, or a feature request, it can only be treated as a feature request. (which is, by the suggested "optional" nature of the thing, the only choice IMHO anyway, for there is no either/or for a bug). So... lengthy introduction, and now the conclusion: file a wishlist item (aka feature request) on the Bugtracker site. Then you post the link to this wishlist item here, and ask for support. People who like your idea will eventually put a supporting note to your wish. The more notes, the more attention the item will get, I assume. File the wish and see what happens. Everything else is redundant & turning in circles. -- Best regards, Alexander (http://www.neurowerx.de - ICQ 238153981) Scott's Second Law: When an error has been detected and corrected, it will be found to have been correct in the first place. Current beta is 3.62.07 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html IMPORTANT: To register as a Beta tester, use this link first - http://www.ritlabs.com/en/partners/testers/
Re: About release
On 31 Oct 2005, at 22:34, Stefan Tanurkov wrote: There is nothing to fix - this has been repeated hundreds of times. MicroEd works as designed. I'll second that. MicroEd is the one main feature I miss. -- Tony Boom PGP http://www.theboomclan.com/tbc.asc Current beta is 3.62.07 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html IMPORTANT: To register as a Beta tester, use this link first - http://www.ritlabs.com/en/partners/testers/
Re: About release
On Tuesday, November 1, 2005, at 09:05:42 [UTC+0700] (Tuesday, November 1, 2005 03:05 my local time) Thomas Fernandez wrote: > My personal workaround is that once a filter has reached 10 > conditions, I will create a new one for additional conditions. Both > filters will do exactly the same, namely moving messages to folders > based on email domains found in headers.[...] In some cases I use only one universal filter which moves messages into folders of names based on sender domain. The trick lies in symbolic name of the folder which use regular expression like this: \\Your_Account\%SetPattRegexp="(?is)@(.*)"%RegexpMatch(%OFromAddr) Condition for this filter may be very simple, for example, you can check if sender belongs to AB group or, if number of domains is small, you can check null condition. Additionally, you can create such folders automatically, so sender with new domain will not a problem. -- Best regards, Zygmunt Wereszczynski (Using The Bat! v3.62.08 in OTFE mode with BayesIt! 0.8.4 on Windows 2000 5.0 Build 2195 Service Pack 4) Current beta is 3.62.07 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html IMPORTANT: To register as a Beta tester, use this link first - http://www.ritlabs.com/en/partners/testers/
Re: About release
Hi Alto and list, On Tuesday, November 1, 2005 at 03:00:25 GMT +0100 (which was 03:00 where I live) Alto Speckhardt wrote (at least in parts) and made these valuable points on the subject of "About release": [umpteenth editor discussion] > Ah. So that's what's wrong with MicroEd. That "wrong" is _your_ opinion, not mine. > Ok, so when will it be fixed? There should be a reason that a lot of TB-User like MicroEd so much. I sincerely hope: not in my lifetime! -- Regards Michael powered by The BAT! 3.62.07, , and MyMacros 1.11a with usual problems of Windows XP Pro 5.1 Build 2600 Service Pack 2 Current beta is 3.62.07 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html IMPORTANT: To register as a Beta tester, use this link first - http://www.ritlabs.com/en/partners/testers/
Re: About release
Hi Thomas and list, On Tuesday, November 1, 2005 at 09:27:42 GMT +0700 (which was 03:27 where I live) Thomas Fernandez wrote (at least in parts) and made these valuable points on the subject of "About release": ST>> I guess, we should make some filter optimiser,... > Yes, that's a good idea. I do hope that does not mean: Do it for the next beta cycle so that longstanding bugfixes are delayed again once more! -- Regards Michael powered by The BAT! 3.62.07, , and MyMacros 1.11a with usual problems of Windows XP Pro 5.1 Build 2600 Service Pack 2 Current beta is 3.62.07 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html IMPORTANT: To register as a Beta tester, use this link first - http://www.ritlabs.com/en/partners/testers/
Re: About release
Alto, On 01-11-2005 14:12, you [AS] wrote in : AS> An afterthought: vi is a great editor. I'm sure we can agree on AS> that, can't we? No. Learning curve is way too high. I also consider it raked with bad usability. -- Best regards Peter Fjelsten 3.62.01 Pro ~4 POP3, 7 IMAP (UW IMAP 2002e) & 1 IMAP (Exchange 6.5), 175K msgs. Windows XP 5.1 Build 2600 Service Pack 1 Current beta is 3.62.07 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html IMPORTANT: To register as a Beta tester, use this link first - http://www.ritlabs.com/en/partners/testers/
Re: About release
Hello Alto Speckhardt & everyone else, on 01-Nov-2005 at 14:12 you (Alto Speckhardt) wrote: > The user decides what's a bug and what's a feature. Yes, so please file the feature request, see how much support you get, and spare us with your endless sermon, welcome to my ignore filter! -- Best regards, Alexander (http://www.neurowerx.de - ICQ 238153981) Sometimes one pays most for the things one gets for nothing. -- Albert Einstein Current beta is 3.62.07 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html IMPORTANT: To register as a Beta tester, use this link first - http://www.ritlabs.com/en/partners/testers/
