Re: Smileys? Mail Chat?? What's becoming of The Bat!?

[Thomas Fernandez]

Hello Urban,

On Thu, 10 Jun 2004 00:55:56 +0200 GMT (10/06/2004, 05:55 +0700 GMT),
Urban wrote:

U>>> There's another thing that could be helpful... If you could attach (in
U>>> lack of any better words) the toggle to the address book. That way I
U>>> could tell you that I might very well send meaningful text that easily
U>>> could be shown as emoticons.
>>
>> That's a good idea.

U> I haven't figured the bugtracker wishlist out yet. Feel free to add it
U> if you want to.

Not me. I'm not using the smiley icons at all.

-- 

Cheers,
Thomas.

Moderator der deutschen The Bat! Beginner Liste.

Also too, never, ever use repetitive redundancies.

Message reply created with The Bat! 2.11
under Chinese Windows 98 4.10 Build  A 
using a Pentium P4 1.7 GHz, 256MB RAM





Current version is 2.11.02 | 'Using TBUDL' information:
http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html

Re: Smileys? Mail Chat?? What's becoming of The Bat!?

[Urban]

Wednesday, June 9, 2004, Thomas Fernandez wrote:

U>> IMO that is simply not acceptable, by doing so I am implying to the
U>> receiver that "if you are not using TB you are a wrong-doer".

> What is not acceptable about that? - scnr.

I guess I should have seen that one coming :-)

U>> There's another thing that could be helpful... If you could attach (in
U>> lack of any better words) the toggle to the address book. That way I
U>> could tell you that I might very well send meaningful text that easily
U>> could be shown as emoticons.
>
> That's a good idea.

I haven't figured the bugtracker wishlist out yet. Feel free to add it
if you want to.

-- 
Urban

A hurricane is a breeze of a bigly size.


Current version is 2.11.02 | 'Using TBUDL' information:
http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html

Re: Smileys? Mail Chat?? What's becoming of The Bat!?

[Thomas Fernandez]

Hello ken,

On Mon, 7 Jun 2004 17:23:16 -0500 GMT (08/06/2004, 05:23 +0700 GMT),
ken green wrote:

>> No time was wasted

kg> (Note: not just to Thomas)

OK.

kg> Every beta-tester that posts a question about smileys takes away time
kg> from them posting about a bug that isn't fixed yet.

That's why I was so surprised it got so much attention. My answer was:
maybe they like it.

kg> Every response to above takes away time from addressing bugs that
kg> haven't been fixed.

You put this well. It did use resources, even if not during writing. I
agree. Seeing the response to this new feature, however, it appears
to be time well invested.

-- 

Cheers,
Thomas.

Moderator der deutschen The Bat! Beginner Liste.

In an office: AFTER TEA BREAK STAFF SHOULD EMPTY THE TEAPOT AND STAND
UPSIDE DOWN ON THE DRAINING BOARD

Message reply created with The Bat! 2.11
under Chinese Windows 98 4.10 Build  A 
using a Pentium P4 1.7 GHz, 256MB RAM





Current version is 2.11.02 | 'Using TBUDL' information:
http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html

Re: Smileys? Mail Chat?? What's becoming of The Bat!?

[Thomas Fernandez]

Hello Urban,

On Tue, 8 Jun 2004 01:47:32 +0200 GMT (08/06/2004, 06:47 +0700 GMT),
Urban wrote:

U> IMO that is simply not acceptable, by doing so I am implying to the
U> receiver that "if you are not using TB you are a wrong-doer".

What is not acceptable about that? - scnr.

U> There's another thing that could be helpful... If you could attach (in
U> lack of any better words) the toggle to the address book. That way I
U> could tell you that I might very well send meaningful text that easily
U> could be shown as emoticons.

That's a good idea.

-- 

Cheers,
Thomas.

Moderator der deutschen The Bat! Beginner Liste.

Wachskerzen wachsen gar nicht, sondern werden im Gegenteil immer
kleiner.

Message reply created with The Bat! 2.11
under Chinese Windows 98 4.10 Build  A 
using a Pentium P4 1.7 GHz, 256MB RAM





Current version is 2.11.02 | 'Using TBUDL' information:
http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html

Re: Smileys? Mail Chat?? What's becoming of The Bat!?

[Gerard]

ON Tuesday, June 8, 2004, 3:01:15 PM, you wrote:
SE> Perhaps that's the problem: we all want a simple email program, but it
SE> would be nice if it had XYZ. And if everyone's XYZ is different...

Simon,

That is so true, and in case of TB!, in most cases you do not have to use
it if you do not want it.

-- 
Best regards,
 Gerard 
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Being careful, tightening up, and trying to steer the ball will likely
cause disaster. Good golfers gain control over the ball by feeling that
they are giving up control.

Using The Bat! v2.11 on Windows XP 5.1 Build 2600 Service Pack 1



Current version is 2.11.02 | 'Using TBUDL' information:
http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html

Re: Smileys? Mail Chat?? What's becoming of The Bat!?

[Simon Elliott]

Hi 

On Tuesday, June 8, 2004, 1:38:41 PM, Gerard wrote:
G> I still have a old mobile phone. All you can do with it is call and be
G> called. No SMS, no camera, no diary, no ringtones, no graphic display, no
G> games, no bluetooth,no picture messaging, no nothing. Just call.

G> You think there is a market for such phones?

Yes, IMHO, if it's cheap enough. Loads of people would get them for
their kids. It wouldn't be cool'n'trendy, so no-one would steal it. It
would be functional, and it wouldn't be the end of the world if it got
lost or damaged. And it would enable parents to say: "I'll give you a
phone so that you can call us in an emergency, but I won't help you
play 'my phone is cooler than yours' with your mates."

But it would be nice if it had SMS.

Perhaps that's the problem: we all want a simple email program, but it
would be nice if it had XYZ. And if everyone's XYZ is different...

G> You think there is a market for just plain email programs?

Yes, as long as it has XYZ :-)
-- 
Using The Bat! v2.10.03 on Windows XP 5.1 Build  2600
Service Pack 1



Current version is 2.11.02 | 'Using TBUDL' information:
http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html

Re: Smileys? Mail Chat?? What's becoming of The Bat!?

[Gerard]

ON Tuesday, June 8, 2004, 2:52:30 AM, you wrote:
ttc> - Try this one, sir, it has an email client, a news client and a chat
ttc> module, and..

Marek,

I still have a old mobile phone. All you can do with it is call and be
called. No SMS, no camera, no diary, no ringtones, no graphic display, no
games, no bluetooth,no picture messaging, no nothing. Just call.

You think there is a market for such phones?
You think there is a market for just plain email programs?

And no 2 persons wanting this is not a "market"

-- 
Best regards,
 Gerard 
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
There is no such thing as a golfer playing over his head. A hot streak is
simply a glimpse of a golfer´s true potential.

Using The Bat! v2.11 on Windows XP 5.1 Build 2600 Service Pack 1



Current version is 2.11.02 | 'Using TBUDL' information:
http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html

Re: Smileys? Mail Chat?? What's becoming of The Bat!?

[Urban]

Sunday, June 6, 2004, Allie Martin wrote:

U>> In that case the person who gets the table can do something that is
U>> _much_ better: (S)he can tell the sender that doing tables like that
U>> isn't necessarily a good thing and show him or her a better alternative.

> .. the same can apply for the emoticon issue. In fact the emoticon
> issue is more easily solved.

I have tried to figure it out, please tell.
The best I could come up with that don't involve any change in how TB
works as of 2.11.02 would be to add a footnote "If you are using TB and
see emoticons, please take the following steps". IMO that is simply not
acceptable, by doing so I am implying to the receiver that "if you are
not using TB you are a wrong-doer".

> You cannot influence how your messages will be rendered by the
> receiving client. That's up to the client and the users settings.

Which could lead to some very unfortunate misunderstandings that isn't
easily resolved even by reading the source of the e-mail.

> You can minimize problems but you can't totally eliminate them.

I can check and I can re-check, yes, but that's about all there is. It
would be nice if the program gave me some help with this, though. For
example, there could be a spellcheck-like function that looked for
smilies.



> It can be disabled permanently or via a toggle switch (right click in
> the viewer and select 'Smileys'). If the user finds an emoticon
> strangely placed, as I do at times, (s)he simply toggles off the
> smileys. I've done this for a few messages already.

There's another thing that could be helpful... If you could attach (in
lack of any better words) the toggle to the address book. That way I
could tell you that I might very well send meaningful text that easily
could be shown as emoticons.

-- 
Urban

"Alice laughed: "There's no use trying," she said; "one can't believe
impossible things." "I daresay you haven't had much practice," said the
Queen. "When I was younger, I always did it for half an hour a day. Why,
sometimes I've believed as many as six impossible things before
breakfast."


Current version is 2.11.02 | 'Using TBUDL' information:
http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html

Re: Smileys? Mail Chat?? What's becoming of The Bat!?

[Frank Sproede]

On Tuesday, June 8, 2004 at 12:10:09 AM, ken green wrote:

> Currently, trying to do something like that is possible, but would
> involve a lot of extra work (filters and message coloring, etc.)

Perhaps you want to support
https://www.ritlabs.com/bt/bug_view_advanced_page.php?bug_id=0003088

Regards,
Frank
-- 



Current version is 2.11.02 | 'Using TBUDL' information:
http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html

Re: Smileys? Mail Chat?? What's becoming of The Bat!?

[thebat]

Allie Martin ([EMAIL PROTECTED]):

> How about a large office setting users are on an LAN and behind a
> proxy and cannot use the usual chat software. All in the office use
> TB!. Mail chat would work well there.

True, but you could use the same argument to justify an IRC client, a
download manager, almost anything. A chat is fundamentally different
from email in that it's immediate, while email is a "deferred" model
of communication. One reason I use email is that I have no use
whatsoever for chat. Written conversation is s-l-o-w, almost always a
waste of time, and is hard to schedule across time zones. In my
opinion, a chat feature is bloat, since there's so much (free) chat
software already available anyway. It certainly isn't something that
will persuade me to pay for an upgrade again.

- May I help you?
- Hi, I'm looking for a mail client.
- We have a great one here, with chat function and reminders. It can
even create HTML messages!
- Uh, I just want an email client, thanks. What about a web browser?
- Try this one, sir, it has an email client, a news client and a chat
module, and..
- 

Best regards,
.marek




Current version is 2.11.02 | 'Using TBUDL' information:
http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html

Re: Smileys? Mail Chat?? What's becoming of The Bat!?

[Andre Wichartz]

Hello ken,

On 8 Jun 2004 at 17:10:09 -0500 GMT [00:10 CEST] you wrote:

kg> I thought I read somewhere (release notes?) that the chat feature
kg> could be used to "watch" a conversation (?)  Could this be used in
kg> such a way as to create a virtual folder of *threads* to watch? That
kg> would be pretty cool, I think.

kg> Currently, trying to do something like that is possible, but would
kg> involve a lot of extra work (filters and message coloring, etc.)

kg> I would definitely use something that I could mark a *thread* to
kg> watch.

kg> Do I have this all consufed?

Kinda. You can create a folder and then right click a message and use
Specials -> watch replies in and select the chat folder. That has
nothing to do with mail chat, though.

-- 
Cheers,
 Andre

"It's the heart afraid of breaking that never learns to dance.
 It is the dream afraid of waking that never takes the chance.
 It is the one who won't be taken who cannot seem to give.
 And the soul afraid of dying that never learns to live."  



Current version is 2.11.02 | 'Using TBUDL' information:
http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html

Re: Smileys? Mail Chat?? What's becoming of The Bat!?

[ken green]

Thomas Fernandez wrote:
> No time was wasted

(Note: not just to Thomas)

I don't understand why this argument keeps getting raised.  I know
that 9Val made this claim in the context of no *development* time was
wasted, but I think even in that context, a not insignificant time has
been allotted to smileys alone.

Without getting into the merits of smileys in general, or how Ritlabs
announced them, etc. one still cannot ignore the number of messages
devoted to a topic that some claim "no time was wasted."

Every beta-tester that posts a question about smileys takes away time
from them posting about a bug that isn't fixed yet.

Every response to above takes away time from addressing bugs that
haven't been fixed.

Are we to believe that smiley development is still getting done on
"personal time"?  (remembering that this was part of an official
release)

I really don't want to debate smileys.  I can accept them as something
I simply won't use - and if it doesn't interfere with my use of TB, no
problem.  I realize some people don't use/need Virtual Folders or
IMAP.  OK.  I just don't understand/agree with the idea that smileys
don't take up any time.

Smileys appear to be a feature that's here to stay.  Let's treat them
that way.  It doesn't matter if a new feature somehow *developed
itself* and literally required ZERO development.  Once that feature is
introduced and released, it takes up resources.

-- 
 Ken Green
 Using The Bat! v2.10.03 on Windows 2000 5.0 Build 2195 Service Pack 4



Current version is 2.11.02 | 'Using TBUDL' information:
http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html

Re: Smileys? Mail Chat?? What's becoming of The Bat!?

[ken green]

rich gregory wrote:
> My take on Smileys and mail chat: If they are mail client specific
> then they are completely useless.


I agree, but I'm now not so sure I fully understand the chat feature.
(still playing catch-up with new features, and no longer have my test
machine for beta-testing).

I thought I read somewhere (release notes?) that the chat feature
could be used to "watch" a conversation (?)  Could this be used in
such a way as to create a virtual folder of *threads* to watch?  That
would be pretty cool, I think.

Currently, trying to do something like that is possible, but would
involve a lot of extra work (filters and message coloring, etc.)

I would definitely use something that I could mark a *thread* to
watch.

Do I have this all consufed?

-- 
 Ken Green
 Using The Bat! v2.10.03 on Windows 2000 5.0 Build 2195 Service Pack 4



Current version is 2.11.02 | 'Using TBUDL' information:
http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html

Re: Smileys? Mail Chat?? What's becoming of The Bat!?

[Allie Martin]

Krister Ekstrom, [KE] wrote:

KE> No, especially not when it doesn't seem to be compatible with
KE> other things than TB! itself. (or am i wrong here) If i'm right,
KE> then i can't help wondering what the benefits of mail chat would
KE> be. I have some friends, but i'm quite alone among them in using
KE> TB! The idea is neat, but if it's only to be compatible with TB,
KE> then i don't see the point in it.

How about a large office setting users are on an LAN and behind a
proxy and cannot use the usual chat software. All in the office use
TB!. Mail chat would work well there.

-- 
-=[ Allie ]=- (List Moderator and fellow end-user)

PGPKeys: http://key.ac-martin.com
Running The Bat! v2.11.02 on WinXP Pro (SP1) 


pgpHxH6ia8eUq.pgp
Description: PGP signature

Current version is 2.11.02 | 'Using TBUDL' information:
http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html

Re: Smileys? Mail Chat?? What's becoming of The Bat!?

[Krister ekstrom]

On Fri, Jun 04, 2004 at 03:18:40PM -0400, Bob wrote:
> Smileys and Mail Chat- can anyone tell me why Ritlabs has added these
> silly features to its awesome mailer? Smileys seems like something
> straight out of AOL's cheesy mailer, and those of us that actually use
> instant messaging are probably not going to ditch what we currently
> use in favor of Mail Chat anytime soon. 
No, especially not when it doesn't seem to be compatible with other 
things than TB! itself. (or am i wrong here) If i'm right, then i can't 
help wondering what the benefits of mail chat would be. I have some 
friends, but i'm quite alone among them in using TB! The idea is neat, 
but if it's only to be compatible with TB, then i don't see the point in 
it.
-- 
/Krister, committing blasphemy by using Mutt 1.56 under Debian Gnu/Linux


signature.asc
Description: Digital signature

Current version is 2.11.02 | 'Using TBUDL' information:
http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html

Re: Smileys? Mail Chat?? What's becoming of The Bat!?

[Allie Martin]

Urban, [U] wrote:

U> In that case the person who gets the table can do something that is
U> _much_ better: (S)he can tell the sender that doing tables like that
U> isn't necessarily a good thing and show him or her a better alternative.

.. the same can apply for the emoticon issue. In fact the emoticon
issue is more easily solved.

U> Normally, yes, and I shouldn't mess with the settings that _they_
U> want, I don't want to either. What I want is simply a way to make
U> TB know that /this particular message/ contains smilie shortcuts
U> that should be rendered as text.

You cannot influence how your messages will be rendered by the
receiving client. That's up to the client and the users settings.

You can minimize problems but you can't totally eliminate them.

U> I haven't said that emoticons are necessarily a bad thing that shouldn't
U> be, so I don't deny anyone anything. What I have said, however, is that
U> the way it works in TB now isn't good because it denies the sender
U> control of what the first impression of the mail sent will be.

It can be disabled permanently or via a toggle switch (right click in
the viewer and select 'Smileys'). If the user finds an emoticon
strangely placed, as I do at times, (s)he simply toggles off the
smileys. I've done this for a few messages already.

U> If I select another message encoding, I'll get a visual feedback
U> (although it seems to be true only for non-ASCII characters). If I
U> write :-) while composing, even the HTML-editor will only show me
U> "colon-dash-right parenthesis" without any clue whatsoever that it
U> might be converted to a emoticon.

Of course, since emoticons aren't a part of HTML.

-- 
-=[ Allie ]=- (List Moderator and fellow end-user)

PGPKeys: http://key.ac-martin.com
Running The Bat! v2.11.02 on WinXP Pro (SP1) 


pgpLVPCZCHwyk.pgp
Description: PGP signature

Current version is 2.11.02 | 'Using TBUDL' information:
http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html

Re: Smileys? Mail Chat?? What's becoming of The Bat!?

[Thomas Fernandez]

Hello rich,

On Sun, 6 Jun 2004 12:18:18 -0400 GMT (06/06/2004, 23:18 +0700 GMT),
rich gregory wrote:

TF>> I post one message in this thread after ignoring so many in TBBETA
TF>> and here about the smileys. And I get this. Oh, well... ;-)

rg> So Sorry... I *should have* put in one of those MODerator-type
rg> "I don't mean YOU in particular" disclaimers!

Note my smiley - I knew you didn't mean me in particular.

rg> I was just (like everybody else, I bet) getting tired of the
rg> personalized tone of the messages rather than the matter-of-fact Q&A
rg> tone I would prefer.

Understandable.

rg> I apologize.

Not necessary. :-)

-- 

Cheers,
Thomas.

Moderator der deutschen The Bat! Beginner Liste.

FLATULANCE: Emergency vehicle that picks you up when you've been run
over by a steam roller

Message reply created with The Bat! 2.11
under Chinese Windows 98 4.10 Build  A 
using a Pentium P4 1.7 GHz, 256MB RAM





Current version is 2.11.02 | 'Using TBUDL' information:
http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html

Re: Smileys? Mail Chat?? What's becoming of The Bat!?

[Thomas Fernandez]

Hello Urban,

On Sun, 6 Jun 2004 13:20:44 +0200 GMT (06/06/2004, 18:20 +0700 GMT),
Urban wrote:

>> Correct, as the smiley-function in TB  has nothing to do with the
>> author. It is only and exclusively up to the recipient to decide
>> whether he wants Ascii-smileys replaced by icon-smileys.

U> Even a silly sentence as "The dog says grr and the cat meows" shouldn't
U> be interpreted as "The dog says angry and the cat meows" unless _I_ (the
U> sender) mean it to be so. I shouldn't have to think twice when writing
U> it, and the recipient shouldn't have to think twice when reading it
U> either.

I fully agree with the last sentence. However, if the reciepient
tweaks his display to show something that you didn't write, I cannot
find any fault on your side.

In addition, I agree with Allie that only :grr: should trigger the
smiley. But still it is the recipient's problem, not the sender's.

>> The smileys have nothing to do with the sender of an email,

U> This has /everything/ to do with the sender. It his, and only his,
U> responsibility to make sure that the message sent isn't ambiguous.

Well, this is where we disagree. IMHO your message wasn't ambiguous.

U> I've shown one way to make it so, another (and IMO a much better
U> approach) would be if there was a standardised header
U> X-Always-Show-Smileys-As-ASCII.

Hm. You want to overwrite the recipient's settings. I don't think many
will appreciate it.

U> You asked me to stop this thread, well I tried to CC to TBOT, but I am
U> not subscribed there under this address. So I'll just hope that anybody
U> that does respond make a CC there. Fair enough?

OK for me, I am not a moderator here, and I will be gone for the next
three days anyway. ;-)

-- 

Cheers,
Thomas.

Moderator der deutschen The Bat! Beginner Liste.

"Mothers all want their sons to grow up to be President, but they
don't want them to become politicians in the process." (John F.
Kennedy)

Message reply created with The Bat! 2.11
under Chinese Windows 98 4.10 Build  A 
using a Pentium P4 1.7 GHz, 256MB RAM





Current version is 2.11.02 | 'Using TBUDL' information:
http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html

Re: Smileys? Mail Chat?? What's becoming of The Bat!?

[Urban]

Sunday, June 6, 2004, Allie Martin wrote:

> This little dilemma is really no different from neatly banging
> together a table in plain text using a fixed width font. You wish the
> other person at the other end to see the table as you constructed it.
> Pity that you can't break into their machines to make them use the PTV
> that uses only fixed width fonts. :)

In that case the person who gets the table can do something that is
_much_ better: (S)he can tell the sender that doing tables like that
isn't necessarily a good thing and show him or her a better alternative.

> If they wish to use emoticons to translate common character combo's
> into images, then that's their prerogative.

Normally, yes, and I shouldn't mess with the settings that _they_ want,
I don't want to either. What I want is simply a way to make TB know that
/this particular message/ contains smilie shortcuts that should be
rendered as text.

> Denying them emoticon support if they want it isn't, IMO, a reasonable
> solution.

I haven't said that emoticons are necessarily a bad thing that shouldn't
be, so I don't deny anyone anything. What I have said, however, is that
the way it works in TB now isn't good because it denies the sender
control of what the first impression of the mail sent will be.

If I select another message encoding, I'll get a visual feedback
(although it seems to be true only for non-ASCII characters). If I write
:-) while composing, even the HTML-editor will only show me
"colon-dash-right parenthesis" without any clue whatsoever that it might
be converted to a emoticon.
At the same time, TB knows what's in _my_ pdsf.msl, and it could easily
be made to know which ones the pdsf.msl that was distributed with the
executable contained. Therefore it wouldn't, IMO, be an unreasonable
if TB noticed that and -- if I wanted to -- told me so.

-- 
Urban

A man will be imprisoned in a room with a door that's unlocked and opens
inwards; as long as it does not occur to him to pull rather than push.
(Ludwig Wittgenstein)


Current version is 2.11.02 | 'Using TBUDL' information:
http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html

Re: Smileys? Mail Chat?? What's becoming of The Bat!?

[Allie Martin]

Urban, [U] wrote:

U> Even a silly sentence as "The dog says grr and the cat meows"
U> shouldn't be interpreted as "The dog says angry and the cat meows"
U> unless _I_ (the sender) mean it to be so.

I agree with this and simply because IMO, an emoticon is being
inappropriately triggered. Emoticons should be triggered by text that
is not normally used as stand alone text. So in the case above, it
would be better if the emoticon were triggered by ":grr:".

Emoticons should be triggered only by special character sequences and
not overlap with commonly emotional words or letter combos we normally
use to mimic a sound like Argh!, Aha!, Hahahaha, Gr, B, oh, etc.

-- 
-=[ Allie ]=- (List Moderator and fellow end-user)

PGPKeys: http://key.ac-martin.com
Running The Bat! v2.11.02 on WinXP Pro (SP1) 


pgpeCRuXRLbsm.pgp
Description: PGP signature

Current version is 2.11.02 | 'Using TBUDL' information:
http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html

Re: Smileys? Mail Chat?? What's becoming of The Bat!?

[Peter Meyns]

Hi Urban,

on Sun, 6 Jun 2004 13:20:44 +0200GMT, you wrote:

U> Sunday, June 6, 2004, Thomas Fernandez wrote:

>> Correct, as the smiley-function in TB  has nothing to do with the
>> author. It is only and exclusively up to the recipient to decide
>> whether he wants Ascii-smileys replaced by icon-smileys.

U> Even a silly sentence as "The dog says grr and the cat meows" shouldn't
U> be interpreted as "The dog says angry and the cat meows" unless _I_ (the
U> sender) mean it to be so. I shouldn't have to think twice when writing
U> it, and the recipient shouldn't have to think twice when reading it
U> either.

>> The smileys have nothing to do with the sender of an email, this is
>> not HTML! You send the email as usual. The receipient, if he uses the
>> RTV in TB, can choose to have the emoticons replace by smileys. It is
>> his choice, and only his. Again: This has *nothing* to do with the
>> sender.

U> This has /everything/ to do with the sender. It his, and only his,
U> responsibility to make sure that the message sent isn't ambiguous.

Sure. If I type an ASCII smiley, this isn't ambiguous. When some
recipients prefer to alter what I sent, there is nothing /I/ can do
about it...

U> I've shown one way to make it so, another (and IMO a much better
U> approach) would be if there was a standardised header
U> X-Always-Show-Smileys-As-ASCII.

You'll never know which other alterations some recipients' readers
will change...

U> You asked me to stop this thread, well I tried to CC to TBOT, but I am
U> not subscribed there under this address. So I'll just hope that anybody
U> that does respond make a CC there. Fair enough?

Done. :-) (Pure ASCII smiley - if you see something else, I can't help
it...)

F'up to TBOT

-- 
Cheers
Peter

Keyboard not found. Press F1 to continue.





Current version is 2.11.02 | 'Using TBUDL' information:
http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html

Re: Smileys? Mail Chat?? What's becoming of The Bat!?

[Urban]

Sunday, June 6, 2004, Thomas Fernandez wrote:

> Correct, as the smiley-function in TB  has nothing to do with the
> author. It is only and exclusively up to the recipient to decide
> whether he wants Ascii-smileys replaced by icon-smileys.

Even a silly sentence as "The dog says grr and the cat meows" shouldn't
be interpreted as "The dog says angry and the cat meows" unless _I_ (the
sender) mean it to be so. I shouldn't have to think twice when writing
it, and the recipient shouldn't have to think twice when reading it
either.

> The smileys have nothing to do with the sender of an email, this is
> not HTML! You send the email as usual. The receipient, if he uses the
> RTV in TB, can choose to have the emoticons replace by smileys. It is
> his choice, and only his. Again: This has *nothing* to do with the
> sender.

This has /everything/ to do with the sender. It his, and only his,
responsibility to make sure that the message sent isn't ambiguous.
I've shown one way to make it so, another (and IMO a much better
approach) would be if there was a standardised header
X-Always-Show-Smileys-As-ASCII.

You asked me to stop this thread, well I tried to CC to TBOT, but I am
not subscribed there under this address. So I'll just hope that anybody
that does respond make a CC there. Fair enough?

-- 
Urban

Queen Elizabeth was the "Virgin Queen." As a queen she was a success.
When she exposed herself before her troops they all shouted "hurrah."


Current version is 2.11.02 | 'Using TBUDL' information:
http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html

Re: Smileys? Mail Chat?? What's becoming of The Bat!?

[Thomas Fernandez]

Hello Urban,

On Sat, 5 Jun 2004 16:38:59 +0200 GMT (05/06/2004, 21:38 +0700 GMT),
Urban wrote:

U> It shouldn't be up to the author to find up work-arounds if (s)he wants
U> or needs something to be interpreted literarily; not while (s)he is
U> writing, anyway.

Correct, as the smiley-function in TB  has nothing to do with the
author. It is only and exclusively up to the recipient to decide
whether he wants Ascii-smileys replaced by icon-smileys.

Please stop this thread. The smileys have nothing to  do with the
sender of an email, this is not HTML! You send the email as usual. The
receipient, if he uses the RTV in TB, can choose to have the emoticons
replace by smileys. It is his choice, and only his. Again: This has
*nothing* to do with the sender.

-- 

Cheers,
Thomas.

Moderator der deutschen The Bat! Beginner Liste.

You know that little indestructible black box that is used on planes;
why can't they make the whole plane out of the same substance ?

Message reply created with The Bat! 2.11
under Chinese Windows 98 4.10 Build  A 
using a Pentium P4 1.7 GHz, 256MB RAM





Current version is 2.11.02 | 'Using TBUDL' information:
http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html

Re: Smileys? Mail Chat?? What's becoming of The Bat!?

[Thomas Fernandez]

Hello Urban,

On Sat, 5 Jun 2004 21:01:46 +0200 GMT (06/06/2004, 02:01 +0700 GMT),
Urban wrote:

>> Why should you send a note???

U> Because I do NOT want them to use the icons under ANY circumstances.

It's his choice.

U> If I write h2g2 it is because I _mean_ the book, not some little
U> image over which I have no control

But he does, and he choses to view your message in a way you have not
written it. His problem, not yours.

U> (unless I break into the computer of the one who is receiving the
U> mail and remove it from her/his pdsf.msl).

I believe you could do that.

-- 

Cheers,
Thomas.

Moderator der deutschen The Bat! Beginner Liste.

File - What your secretary does to her nails when the computer is
doing all of the work.

Message reply created with The Bat! 2.11
under Chinese Windows 98 4.10 Build  A 
using a Pentium P4 1.7 GHz, 256MB RAM





Current version is 2.11.02 | 'Using TBUDL' information:
http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html

Re: Smileys? Mail Chat?? What's becoming of The Bat!?

[Thomas Fernandez]

Hello rich,

On Sat, 5 Jun 2004 14:03:37 -0400 GMT (06/06/2004, 01:03 +0700 GMT),
rich gregory wrote:

>> they give you something for free and everybody cries foul

rg> Nobody here has cried foul since this information was divulged, which
rg> in TBUDL time, has been quite a while now.

rg> I feel, as I am sure that most TB! users do, that the effort (now that
rg> it is understood) is very much appreciated.

Good.

rg> Can we all please now focus on asking & answering questions and stop
rg> dwelling on who thought what when?

I post one message in this thread after ignoring so many in TBBETA and
here about the smileys. And I get this. Oh, well... ;-)

-- 

Cheers,
Thomas.

Moderator der deutschen The Bat! Beginner Liste.

Si le travail c'est l'opium du peuple, alors je ne veux pas finir
drogué...[ Boris Vian ]

Message reply created with The Bat! 2.11
under Chinese Windows 98 4.10 Build  A 
using a Pentium P4 1.7 GHz, 256MB RAM





Current version is 2.11.02 | 'Using TBUDL' information:
http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html

Re: Smileys? Mail Chat?? What's becoming of The Bat!?

[Andre Wichartz]

Hello Maggie,

On 5 Jun 2004 at 13:59:04 -0400 GMT [19:59 CEST] you wrote:

M> I found Folder - Properties - Identity and changed it to Maggie. Is it better now?

Yes perfect. :)
You can even do it on a per template basis:
%from='Name '

-- 
Cheers,
 Andre

"The world is only as big
 as the window you open to it."  



Current version is 2.11.02 | 'Using TBUDL' information:
http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html

Re: Smileys? Mail Chat?? What's becoming of The Bat!?

[Andre Wichartz]

Hello Mary,

On 5 Jun 2004 at 09:05:02 -0500 GMT [16:05 CEST] you wrote:

MB> Andre, not looking at the sig, you miss all the delightful cookies!
MB> (I'm now cross-posting to tbot :) )

It's not that I ignore sigs completely. But will not spend all parts of
it equal attention. The cookies is the most interesting part of it of
course. But I meant something different: when mentioning someone or
someone' mail I don't look at the mail itself. I may only look at the
message list. When I want to know from whom a mail is that's where I
look. Not all sigs carry a name, but the header usually does. It really
helps if it's there more than elsewhere.

MB> For instance, this one from Andre:

MB>  "I drank what?"

I like it. It's funny (or maybe it isn't. But I imagine it to be.).

MB> :42:

As always. :)

-- 
Cheers,
 Andre

"Let me assure you that to us here at First National,
 you're not just a number. You're two numbers,
 a dash, three more numbers, another dash and another number."  



Current version is 2.11.02 | 'Using TBUDL' information:
http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html

Re: Smileys? Mail Chat?? What's becoming of The Bat!?

[Allie Martin]

Urban, [U] wrote:

U> Because I do NOT want them to use the icons under ANY circumstances. If
U> I write h2g2 it is because I _mean_ the book, not some little image over
U> which I have no control (unless I break into the computer of the one who
U> is receiving the mail and remove it from her/his pdsf.msl).

This little dilemma is really no different from neatly banging
together a table in plain text using a fixed width font. You wish the
other person at the other end to see the table as you constructed it.
Pity that you can't break into their machines to make them use the PTV
that uses only fixed width fonts. :)

If they wish to use emoticons to translate common character combo's
into images, then that's their prerogative. If some of your text is
unintentionally converted to emoticon images in the same way that your
table or signature is messed up when viewed with a variable width
font, then we can't really do much about it. There are limits to how
we can assure what the other party will see at the other end. Denying
them emoticon support if they want it isn't, IMO, a reasonable solution.

-- 
-=[ Allie ]=- (List Moderator and fellow end-user)

PGPKeys: http://key.ac-martin.com
Running The Bat! v2.11.02 on WinXP Pro (SP1) 


pgpQrO93x5RoS.pgp
Description: PGP signature

Current version is 2.11.02 | 'Using TBUDL' information:
http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html

Re: Smileys? Mail Chat?? What's becoming of The Bat!?

[Urban]

Saturday, June 5, 2004, Richard Wakeford wrote:

> I don't understand why you should have to do that? All TB! users
> presumably subscribe to this list at least

But not everybody is a TB user :-( and even some TB users don't know
English.

> Other e-mail programmes work in different ways so they either accept
> Smilies, in which case the user involved will also be used to them and
> know what to do if they have the option of not wanting to see them or,
> with the rest, they will just see the normal : - ) instead.
   ^
What a good example of the reason I don't like the smilies as they are
today: The way they work is form /leading/ function instead of form
/following/ function.
It shouldn't be up to the author to find up work-arounds if (s)he wants
or needs something to be interpreted literarily; not while (s)he is
writing, anyway.
E-mail is about communicating, and communicating is about transferring
ideas and/or thoughts to another person in such a way that they don't
misinterpret your intentions. {Infoga Vygotskij-citat här}

> I find Smilies brighten up mail but sometimes I just want to read it
> plain so it's a very simple right click and de select.

I use the PTV myself, so I'm not really
bothered by the smilies as such now that I am seasoned enough not to be
baffled by the occasional (b) or :42: showing up in illogical
places.

-- 
Urban

South America has cold summers and hot winters, but somehow they still
manage.


Current version is 2.11.02 | 'Using TBUDL' information:
http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html

Re: Smileys? Mail Chat?? What's becoming of The Bat!?

[Urban]

Saturday, June 5, 2004, Mark Partous wrote:

> Why should you send a note???

Because I do NOT want them to use the icons under ANY circumstances. If
I write h2g2 it is because I _mean_ the book, not some little image over
which I have no control (unless I break into the computer of the one who
is receiving the mail and remove it from her/his pdsf.msl).

-- 
Urban

The people who followed the Lord were called the 12 opossums.


Current version is 2.11.02 | 'Using TBUDL' information:
http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html

Re: Smileys? Mail Chat?? What's becoming of The Bat!?

[Marc Lewis]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Hello All,

Friday, June 4, 2004, 2:18:40 PM, Bob wrote:

B> Smileys and Mail Chat- can anyone tell me why Ritlabs has added these
B> silly features to its awesome mailer? [...]

Microsoftitis.  Tragic, usually fatal corporate disease.

B> I know I'm venting a bit and am inviting flames here, but I'd like to
B> know if anyone else agrees with me on this.

100% agreement here, Bob.

B>  I certainly hope this isn't an indication of what's to come for
B>  The Bat!.

Yes, all we need is another e-mail client with a 100 megabyte
executable and 20 .dll files to load. 

- --
*
*  Best regards,
*  Marc.
*  New Orleans, LA (USA)
*  FIDONET=1:396/45  INTELEC=239:600/70
*  INTERNET: marc.lewis at sstar dot com
*  TELNET://sursum-corda.com
*  BBS, DATA & FAX: 1-504-897-6006
*
Message NOT valid without my PGP signature.

-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: PGP SDK 3.0.3
Comment: ""

iQA/AwUBQMHX+vku/tz1Eg1XEQLtPACgpkhkksIHjzzQir0QCk98fgcrgCYAniV7
KkwFbNjJ0KayfV+hsBq8NR21
=+PVD
-END PGP SIGNATURE-



Current version is 2.11.02 | 'Using TBUDL' information:
http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html

Re: Smileys? Mail Chat?? What's becoming of The Bat!?

[Michael L. Cusac]

Richard Wakeford wrote in
:

> All TB! users presumably subscribe to this list at least

That's an interesting presumption.  I'd think most of them don't.  Do
we know how many TB! users there are and how many list
subscribers?

-- 
Mike

TB! v1.60q
Windows XP 5.1.2600 Service Pack 1



Current version is 2.11.02 | 'Using TBUDL' information:
http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html

Re: Smileys? Mail Chat?? What's becoming of The Bat!?

[Mary Bull]

Hello Andre!

On Saturday, June 05, 2004, 8:52 AM, you wrote:

mM>> Last I looked . Yep! A she!!  

AW> I can only speak for me but it would definitely help to include your
AW> first name under from: Maggie is pretty clear but I definitly look more
AW> often there than at the signature.

Andre, not looking at the sig, you miss all the delightful cookies!
(I'm now cross-posting to tbot :) )

For instance, this one from Andre:

 "I drank what?"

:42:

-- 
Best regards,
Mary

The Bat! 2.00.6 on Windows XP 5.1 2600 Service Pack 1






Current version is 2.11.02 | 'Using TBUDL' information:
http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html

Re: Smileys? Mail Chat?? What's becoming of The Bat!?

[Andre Wichartz]

Hello mm,

On 5 Jun 2004 at 08:52:21 -0400 GMT [14:52 CEST] you wrote:

AM>>> I just saw one from mmMeister on HTML editor enhancements. I'm
AM>>> pretty sure he's not the only one 

T>> I always thought Maggie was a "she".

mM> Last I looked . Yep! A she!!  

I can only speak for me but it would definitely help to include your
first name under from: Maggie is pretty clear but I definitly look more
often there than at the signature.

-- 
Cheers,
 Andre

"I drank what?"  



Current version is 2.11.02 | 'Using TBUDL' information:
http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html

Re: Smileys? Mail Chat?? What's becoming of The Bat!?

[Thomas Fernandez]

Hello mm,

On Sat, 5 Jun 2004 08:52:21 -0400 GMT (05/06/2004, 19:52 +0700 GMT),
mm Meister wrote:

T>> I always thought Maggie was a "she".

mM> Last I looked . Yep! A she!!  

If you get bored of checking, you could just refer people to the
Rogues Gallery. If you send a picture to Marck first, that is. ;-)
http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/rogues.html

-- 

Cheers,
Thomas.

Moderator der deutschen The Bat! Beginner Liste.

Early to rise and early to bed, makes a man healthy but socially dead.

Message reply created with The Bat! 2.11
under Chinese Windows 98 4.10 Build  A 
using a Pentium P4 1.7 GHz, 256MB RAM





Current version is 2.11.02 | 'Using TBUDL' information:
http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html

Re: Smileys? Mail Chat?? What's becoming of The Bat!?

[Allie Martin]

Thomas Fernandez, [TF] wrote:

AM>> I just saw one from mmMeister on HTML editor enhancements. I'm
AM>> pretty sure he's not the only one who has appreciated the HTML
AM>> editor's improvements.

TF> I always thought Maggie was a "she".

:oops: ...  I never knew. :)

AM>> Those anti-HTML editor posts are still vivid in my mind. ;)

TF> Times do change. It has been proven again. ;-)

Indeed. Indeed. :)

-- 
-=[ Allie ]=- (List Moderator and fellow end-user)

PGPKeys: http://key.ac-martin.com
Running The Bat! v2.11.02 on WinXP Pro (SP1) 


pgp0LLcSRtueu.pgp
Description: PGP signature

Current version is 2.11.02 | 'Using TBUDL' information:
http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html

Re: Smileys? Mail Chat?? What's becoming of The Bat!?

[Thomas Fernandez]

Hello Allie,

On Sat, 5 Jun 2004 06:49:57 -0500 GMT (05/06/2004, 18:49 +0700 GMT),
Allie Martin wrote:

AM> I just saw one from mmMeister on HTML editor enhancements. I'm
AM> pretty sure he's not the only one who has appreciated the HTML
AM> editor's improvements.

I always thought Maggie was a "she".

AM> Those anti-HTML editor posts are still vivid in my mind. ;)

Times do change. It has been proven again. ;-)

-- 

Cheers,
Thomas.

Moderator der deutschen The Bat! Beginner Liste.

Bei Vollmond spricht man nicht.

Message reply created with The Bat! 2.11
under Chinese Windows 98 4.10 Build  A 
using a Pentium P4 1.7 GHz, 256MB RAM





Current version is 2.11.02 | 'Using TBUDL' information:
http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html

Re: Smileys? Mail Chat?? What's becoming of The Bat!?

[Allie Martin]

Boris Gereg, [BG] wrote:

BG> I agree with some of you. I cannot understand why Ritlabs spends
BG> its resources for "features" like smiles, chat... Who needs it?
BG> The one and only reason I switched to Bat was it funcionality -
BG> mailer, no more no less. The more "features" they add, the more
BG> bugs the make. This is not problem only of Ritlabs. Many companies
BG> "enhance" their well established and fine working products to
BG> provide super new functions - and they cripple it!

I agree with this in principle. However, the problem is the difficulty
with defining that line of 'let's stop since there are too many
features'. The ones who don't like the new features are usually the
ones who think the line has been crossed. The ones who wish for the
new features applaud RIT for including them.

I just saw one from mmMeister on HTML editor enhancements. I'm pretty
sure he's not the only one who has appreciated the HTML editor's
improvements. Those anti-HTML editor posts are still vivid in my
mind. ;)

Chat is a mystery for most vocal members it would seem. With all that
RIT are faced with, i.e., the bug fixing and all those feature
wishes/enhancements, I'd be struck dumb if that chat feature weren't
really in demand by some important part of the TB! userbase. :) In
fact, I've assumed it is since I've been using TB! for years and have
seen the pattern.

Mind you, I'm certainly not saying that RIT are above or undeserving
of criticism. Sometimes we do feel left out in terms of support and in
terms of how timely our user issues are being dealt with. With all
that has been happening this is certainly understandable. However, I
thought I'd add some aspects to the other side of the coin to try and
provide some balance.

BG> I can live with with mailer without icons and chat like, I guess,
BG> other 95% of Bat users. There is plenty of bugs that should be
BG> fixed, as already written! Develop plugins for major antivirus
BG> software.

RIT do not develop the actual plug-ins. That's up to the anti-virus
producers who will develop a plug-in only if they find it worth their
while.

BG> Provide better support. If you want to develop your chat, do
BG> separate product, don't mess Bat.

They did provide a pro argument for an integrated, rather than
componentized featureset with optional installs. It had to do with
TB!'s performance. They have considered your concern and seem to have
made their choice.

BG> So, congratulations Ritlabs, go on with new "improvements" that will
BG> make your Bat irresistable. Pleeease, can you implement feature for
BG> light control for my aquarium. Nice toolbar would be welcome. Fish
BG> icons and fish smiles are must! Let me know you are preparing it in
BG> order to provide me enough time to find another email client.

This last paragraph was not necessary and only damaged your message.
Tell us and RIT how you feel, which is good, but please spare us
paragraphs such as these. I hope you don't feel singled out since
there are others who have added their own invective to their posts.
However, yours was isolated and encapsulated in a single paragraph
that followed a good post that would have stood nicely on it's own
without the finish.

-- 
-=[ Allie ]=- (List Moderator and fellow end-user)

PGPKeys: http://key.ac-martin.com
Running The Bat! v2.11.02 on WinXP Pro (SP1) 


pgpZPKTtXp38d.pgp
Description: PGP signature

Current version is 2.11.02 | 'Using TBUDL' information:
http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html

Re: Smileys? Mail Chat?? What's becoming of The Bat!?

[Thomas Fernandez]

Hello Jan,

On Sat, 5 Jun 2004 07:28:47 -0400 GMT (05/06/2004, 18:28 +0700 GMT),
Jan Rifkinson wrote:

BG>> [...] Pleeease, can you implement feature for light control for
BG>> my aquarium. Nice toolbar would be welcome. Fish icons and fish
BG>> smiles are must! [\...]

JR>   Ho hum... same old, same old non-informative stuff.  Pleeeze take
JR>   it to the TBB[itch] list.

I kind of liked his humour, though.
-- 

Cheers,
Thomas.

Moderator der deutschen The Bat! Beginner Liste.

He who stands on toilet, is high on pot!

Message reply created with The Bat! 2.11
under Chinese Windows 98 4.10 Build  A 
using a Pentium P4 1.7 GHz, 256MB RAM





Current version is 2.11.02 | 'Using TBUDL' information:
http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html

Re: Smileys? Mail Chat?? What's becoming of The Bat!?

[Martin Webster]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Hello Allister,

On 05 June 2004, 22:39 +1200 (05/06/200411:39 local time) Allister Jenks
[AJ] in mid:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

MW>> Whilst typing this message in MicroEd I see many enhancements in the new
MW>> release so it seems that efforts haven't been diverted too much after
MW>> all!

AJ> Well, then perhaps there should be some selling of the useful stuff and
AJ> not so much of the frivolous stuff.

Mores the pity... but with all the misinformation going on in TBUDL at
the moment it's hard to see the good stuff getting air time.

...

MW>> And yes, I get frustrated with progress too... and that's why it's
MW>> helpful to change your perceptual position from time to time.

AJ> Standing on my head just makes it harder to type.  Ever noticed that?
AJ> ;-)

No, I can't say I do. All I suggested was that everyone considers the
current topic from someone else's perspective for a change.


- --
As ever,
Martin Webster
Jabber mjw | ICQ 15893823 | PGP Key ID 0xD644460D

The Bat! 2.11.02 | BayesIt! 0.5.5 (Windows XP Professional Service Pack 1)

-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: PGP SDK 3.0.3
Comment: "PGP Key available from ldap://europe.keys.pgp.com/:11370";

iQA/AwUBQMGtsDknq5PWREYNEQJWSACeJPlk7oTk1iCefzhjQxDob5fWrBQAnirX
RFJzrcctibLNGfDe4xAGkn4w
=Fg/L
-END PGP SIGNATURE-



Current version is 2.11.02 | 'Using TBUDL' information:
http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html

Re: Smileys? Mail Chat?? What's becoming of The Bat!?

[Allister Jenks]

Saturday, June 5, 2004, 10:50:29 AM, Martin wrote (in part):

AJ>> Yes, but the inclusion of these features has diverted resource from more
AJ>> functional and useful features, and from bug elimination.

MW> For instance, the new emoticon feature was put together some weeks
MW> ago "for personal use" by one of the developers and is now in the
MW> latest release.

Well, it would be just dandy if one of the chaps could stop it looping
for personal reasons.

MW> Whilst typing this message in MicroEd I see many enhancements in the new
MW> release so it seems that efforts haven't been diverted too much after
MW> all!

Well, then perhaps there should be some selling of the useful stuff and
not so much of the frivolous stuff.

MW> My guess is we're seeing little snippets of the next version. I also
MW> think it will have universal appeal, satisfying 'newbie' and 'power
MW> user' alike. Sounds like a sensible commercial model to me.

This *is* the next version, so, yes.  I assume you refer to some greater
version to follow?  Version 2.2 perhaps?  I'm a little tired of new
versions constantly introducing features without eliminating major bugs.
Also, the version numbers don't seem to mean a lot.  I think there wer
more differences between the 1.5x and 1.6x versions than between any of
the 2.xx versions.

MW> And yes, I get frustrated with progress too... and that's why it's
MW> helpful to change your perceptual position from time to time.

Standing on my head just makes it harder to type.  Ever noticed that?
;-)

-- 
Cheers,
 Allister



Current version is 2.11.02 | 'Using TBUDL' information:
http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html

Re: Smileys? Mail Chat?? What's becoming of The Bat!?

[Martin Webster]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Hello Urban,

On 05 June 2004, 03:26 +0200 (05/06/200402:26 local time) Urban [U] in
mid:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

U> Not just the standard ones, and that is what is so wrong. There should
U> at least be a warning upon sending of messages containing the
U> non-standard ones that they may not come out right in the viewer's mail
U> client. Maybe asking to send as HTML (yuck) instead so that the receiver
U> can read the mail the way the sender intended it.

I think there is some confusion about smileys... nothing has changed in
regard to sending messages. TB! will send exactly what you write. It
does not send images. If you prefer not to use 'traditional' text
smileys that's fine. If you prefer not to use the 'alternate' smileys
that's fine. You see, it's up to you. And usually when writing a message
you have a good idea who your intended audience is and if they will
appreciate your smileys.


- --
As ever,
Martin Webster
Jabber mjw | ICQ 15893823 | PGP Key ID 0xD644460D

The Bat! 2.11.02 | BayesIt! 0.5.5 (Windows XP Professional Service Pack 1)

-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: PGP SDK 3.0.3
Comment: "PGP Key available from ldap://europe.keys.pgp.com/:11370";

iQA/AwUBQMGXWTknq5PWREYNEQJMKACfaFNO24hQQzuXieMBIhY5DNsQ3tcAn22b
jzytewWB9BIoDqP6ORJBJd7W
=j30B
-END PGP SIGNATURE-



Current version is 2.11.02 | 'Using TBUDL' information:
http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html

Re: Smileys? Mail Chat?? What's becoming of The Bat!?

[Boris Gereg]

Hello,

I agree with some of you. I cannot understand why Ritlabs spends its
resources for "features" like smiles, chat... Who needs it? The one
and only reason I switched to Bat was it funcionality - mailer, no
more no less. The more "features" they add, the more bugs the make.
This is not problem only of Ritlabs. Many companies "enhance" their
well established and fine working products to provide super new
functions - and they cripple it!

I can live with with mailer without icons and chat like, I guess,
other 95% of Bat users. There is plenty of bugs that should be fixed,
as already written! Develop plugins for major antivirus software.
Provide better support. If you want to develop your chat, do separate
product, don't mess Bat.

So, congratulations Ritlabs, go on with new "improvements" that will
make your Bat irresistable. Pleeease, can you implement feature for
light control for my aquarium. Nice toolbar would be welcome. Fish
icons and fish smiles are must! Let me know you are preparing it in
order to provide me enough time to find another email client.

Boris



smime.p7s
Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature

Current version is 2.11.02 | 'Using TBUDL' information:
http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html

Re: Smileys? Mail Chat?? What's becoming of The Bat!?

[Thomas Fernandez]

Hello Cyrille,

On Fri, 4 Jun 2004 23:49:20 +0200 GMT (05/06/2004, 04:49 +0700 GMT),
Cyrille wrote:

C> I am still hesitating to make TB my default mailer. And what I read on
C> this list in these last couple of days about v2.11 does not encourage me at
C> all

TB has been my default mailer for 5 years. The reason I am not
downloading 2.11 onto the office computer is that people have reported
memory leaks, sometimes even leading to crashes. This is a
show-stopper for me, smiley issues are not. ;-)

-- 

Cheers,
Thomas.

Moderator der deutschen The Bat! Beginner Liste.

Durch einen Lichtstrahl drangen in der Nacht zum Freitag unbekannte
Taeter in den Supermarkt ein.

Message reply created with The Bat! 2.11
under Chinese Windows 98 4.10 Build  A 
using a Pentium P4 1.7 GHz, 256MB RAM





Current version is 2.11.02 | 'Using TBUDL' information:
http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html

Re: Smileys? Mail Chat?? What's becoming of The Bat!?

[Thomas Fernandez]

Hello Peter,

On Fri, 4 Jun 2004 18:07:29 -0400 GMT (05/06/2004, 05:07 +0700 GMT),
Peter Kerekes wrote:

PK> Who can see the smileys other than BAT readers?

Everybody. Over here, :-) looks like colon-minus-rightParenthesis. You
can easily see that with every mail client.

All the new feature for the RTV does is show a symbol instead of the
ASCII characters upon display, *if* the user (mail recipient) wishes
to use that function. I don't understand the fuzz that is being made
about it. If anybody wants to view emiticons as smilieys in his
incoming messages, it is his private decision and does not warrant a
long thread.

B>>> Did anyone actually request these features?

9Val did the smileys in his spare time for relaxation. Some guys over
at Rit found them neat and said, hey, let's include them in the
release version, maybe other people like them too. That's all. No time
was wasted, they give you something for free (it didn't cost you
anything, nor did it cost them any time) and everybody here cries
foul.

About the mail chat, there may have been a request. The English lists
are not the only customers of Rit, you know. On the other hand, maybe
they are just innovative and are trying out something new. In any
case, I don't think that the work on IMAP is slowed down by it (hey, I
hear IMAP Inbox filtering suddenly works, even though they forgot to
beta-test it), so I wouldn't worry about that.

rg>> P.S. The only reason I cannot agree with your first statement above
rg>> (that TB! is "awesome") is due to the seeming disregard the user
rg>> community's issues. Aside from that TB! is still my mailer of choice
rg>> (warts and all, as they say).

PK> Agree fully.

9Val has been *very* reponsive. The issue about commmunication has
been solved at Rit, IMHO.

PK> The only salvation is that smileys can be disengaged and using
PK> MicroEd editor. Chat I guess can be disregarded. Still it is an
PK> effort to add to the program instead of using the effort to add
PK> other useful features and bug corrections.

I'd think, nothing has been delayed because of these little toys (that
I have personally turned off, becauser I have no use for them).

-- 

Cheers,
Thomas.

Moderator der deutschen The Bat! Beginner Liste.

Alexander Strehmel (Unterhaching): Gerade in einem Spiel, wo die
Nerven blank liegen, muss man sein wahres Gesicht zeigen und die Hosen
runterlassen.

Message reply created with The Bat! 2.11
under Chinese Windows 98 4.10 Build  A 
using a Pentium P4 1.7 GHz, 256MB RAM





Current version is 2.11.02 | 'Using TBUDL' information:
http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html

Re: Smileys? Mail Chat?? What's becoming of The Bat!?

[Thomas Fernandez]

Hello rich,

On Fri, 4 Jun 2004 22:32:12 -0400 GMT (05/06/2004, 09:32 +0700 GMT),
rich gregory wrote:

MM>> The Bat! has many unique features and I don't understand, why must be
MM>> features cross-platform.

rg> With regards to CHATing...

rg> (Unless I am also as clueless what TB! is calling a "chat" as I was
rg> with the smileys)...

rg> If a chat client is not cross-platform then the only community you can
rg> chat with is others on your platform, other TB! users.

Correct. Most people I know have only MSN messenger and cannot chat
with anybody using ICQ or YahooMessenger. Very few use cross-platform
software such as Trillian or Miranda.

rg> That means I cannot use this feature with 90% or more of the people I
rg> already chat with through my cross-platform chat client.

Correct. TB is a mail client, not a chat client. Why they have
included this feature at all, I don't know, but there must have been a
reason. Continue to use your chat client for chatting, and you'll be
fine.

No, I don't want TB to have an integrated chat functionality that can
understand MSN, ICQ, Jabber...

rg> THAT is what I mean by if it is not cross-platform then it is useless.

That is why I don't use it.

rg> I am sorry if anyone was personally offended.

Even after parsing your message again, I cannot find a reason why
anybody could be offended.

-- 

Cheers,
Thomas.

Moderator der deutschen The Bat! Beginner Liste.

I've heard people are more violently opposed to fur than leather
because it's safer to harass rich women than motorcycle gangs.

Message reply created with The Bat! 2.11
under Chinese Windows 98 4.10 Build  A 
using a Pentium P4 1.7 GHz, 256MB RAM





Current version is 2.11.02 | 'Using TBUDL' information:
http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html

Re: Smileys? Mail Chat?? What's becoming of The Bat!?

[Robin Anson]

On Sat 5 June 2004, 11:26:30 +1000, Urban wrote:
>> All other e-mail clients will see them as the plaintext smiley (unless
>> they too convert them locally).
> 
> Not just the standard ones, and that is what is so wrong. There should
> at least be a warning upon sending of messages containing the
> non-standard ones that they may not come out right in the viewer's mail
> client. Maybe asking to send as HTML (yuck) instead so that the receiver
> can read the mail the way the sender intended it.

I'm no fan of the smileys (indeed I have turned them off), but you can
edit the pdsf.msl file to respond to whichever standard or non-standard
smileys you want. Admittedly it is not a particularly intuitive approach,
and does require a degree of familiarity with such things, but you can
choose which smileys you want to appear in response to which combination
of plaintext characters.

-- 
Robin Anson
Using The Bat! v2.11.02 on Windows XP 5.1 Build 2600 Service Pack 1







Current version is 2.11.02 | 'Using TBUDL' information:
http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html

Re: Smileys? Mail Chat?? What's becoming of The Bat!?

[Urban]

Friday, June 4, 2004, Mark Partous wrote:

> Besides, you can disable both features completely if you wish. And it
> isn't hard to do so.

Yes, it's easy if I am on the receiving end.
Not so easy if I am the sender -- I either have to start each mail with
a note that TB users should use the PTV (and maybe even a description
how to do that), or send whatever text I want to as an attachment.

-- 
Urban

Before giving a blood transfusion, find out if the blood is affirmative
or negative.


Current version is 2.11.02 | 'Using TBUDL' information:
http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html

Re: Smileys? Mail Chat?? What's becoming of The Bat!?

[Urban]

Saturday, June 5, 2004, Leif Gregory wrote:

> All TB does is to locally *display* the standard ASCII/Plaintext
> smilies in an e-mail as an image.
> 
> All other e-mail clients will see them as the plaintext smiley (unless
> they too convert them locally).

Not just the standard ones, and that is what is so wrong. There should
at least be a warning upon sending of messages containing the
non-standard ones that they may not come out right in the viewer's mail
client. Maybe asking to send as HTML (yuck) instead so that the receiver
can read the mail the way the sender intended it.

-- 
Urban

Rainbows are just to look at, not to really understand.


Current version is 2.11.02 | 'Using TBUDL' information:
http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html

Re: Smileys? Mail Chat?? What's becoming of The Bat!?

[Jimmie Toney]

On 6/4/04, at 5:04 PM, Allister Jenks sent the following:

AJ> Saturday, June 5, 2004, 7:32:13 AM, Mark wrote:

MP>> Besides, you can disable both features completely if you wish. And
MP>> it isn't hard to do so.

AJ> Yes, but the inclusion of these features has diverted resource from more
AJ> functional and useful features, and from bug elimination.

Also for the few of us with limited hard drives we could use the space for other
things. Overall size in megs, it being smaller than some of the others that I
looked at, is one of the reasons that I choose TB!.

-- 
Thanks to one and all

Jimmie

"»Stay« is a charming word in a friend's vocabulary." - Bronson Allcott

Using The Bat! 2.11.02 under BayesIt! 0.5.5, Windows 98 4.10 Build   A  on a 
Pentium 133 with 128MB.



Current version is 2.11.02 | 'Using TBUDL' information:
http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html

Re: Smileys? Mail Chat?? What's becoming of The Bat!?

[George Mitchell]

Leif Gregory wrote:

> Mail chat, I don't know, but Smileys were added during personal time
> by 9Val.. He was not on the RITLabs clock when he did it.

> Whether or not you believe it to be a useless feature is up to you,
> but bug fixing and whatnot wasn't hurt by 9Vals work. He was on
> personal time.

Nothing is free.  As a result of 9Val's off the clock efforts, several
bug fixes had to be made to the smiley feature before the release.
I'm willing to bet they ate into real development time.  Also, their
UI guy spent time converting the .ico files to GIFs, and someone built
them into the installer.  If Ritlabs bothered to document The Bat!
there would be additional documentation tasks.

Testers were distracted by them in an already painfully short beta
period.  And we still ended up with an initial public release that
turned a common notation for the copyright symbol into a coffee cup.

I like the smileys, but they really should have waited.

-- 
George

Using The Bat! 2.11 on Windows XP Pro 5.1, Build 2600, Service Pack 1.



Current version is 2.11.02 | 'Using TBUDL' information:
http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html

Re: Smileys? Mail Chat?? What's becoming of The Bat!?

[Martin Webster]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Hello Allister,

On 04 June 2004, 09:51 +1200 (04/06/200422:51 local time) Allister Jenks
[AJ] in mid:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

MP>> Besides, you can disable both features completely if you wish. And
MP>> it isn't hard to do so.

AJ> Yes, but the inclusion of these features has diverted resource from more
AJ> functional and useful features, and from bug elimination.

On the contrary, if you frequent TBBETA you'll learn that each developer
is working on different parts of TB! And some features take more time to
develop than others. For instance, the new emoticon feature was put
together some weeks ago "for personal use" by one of the developers and
is now in the latest release. On the other hand, work with IMAP appears
to be progressing at a slower pace. But we know this is much more
complex and is being worked on now. This is clearly evident in the
latest service release.

I rather like the new emoticons... they're very useful in lists and I've
used them for some time... now they come with a bit of colour. :-) As
for Mail Chat I can't say I have a use for it... at the moment. But that
could change.

Whilst typing this message in MicroEd I see many enhancements in the new
release so it seems that efforts haven't been diverted too much after
all!

My guess is we're seeing little snippets of the next version. I also
think it will have universal appeal, satisfying 'newbie' and 'power
user' alike. Sounds like a sensible commercial model to me.

And yes, I get frustrated with progress too... and that's why it's
helpful to change your perceptual position from time to time.


- --
As ever,
Martin Webster
Jabber mjw | ICQ 15893823 | PGP Key ID 0xD644460D

The Bat! 2.11.02 | BayesIt! 0.5.5 (Windows XP Professional Service Pack 1)

-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: PGP SDK 3.0.3
Comment: "PGP Key available from ldap://europe.keys.pgp.com/:11370";

iQA/AwUBQMD8uzknq5PWREYNEQJlCgCfaNjlejBaiukro8Tz+w3UNR4u9l8An3Sh
qMmG7M9OXZUYrqrqhFDpCJPg
=ymVB
-END PGP SIGNATURE-



Current version is 2.11.02 | 'Using TBUDL' information:
http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html

Re: Smileys? Mail Chat?? What's becoming of The Bat!?

[Leif Gregory]

Hello rich,

Friday, June 4, 2004, 3:38:08 PM, you wrote:
rich> If I send 100 emails out with Smileys, chances are (guessing) 60
rich> are going to Outlook, 30 to Netscape (AOL), and the other 10 to
rich> Eudora, Pegasus, The Bat!, etc. If they only mail clients to see
rich> my Smileys are TB! clients then it is a complete waste of time
rich> and resources.

You should understand how the feature works before bagging on it.

All TB does is to locally *display* the standard ASCII/Plaintext
smilies in an e-mail as an image. It has absolutely nothing to do with
compatibility. There is nothing TB has done to make it incompatible.

:-)  <-- this smiley is a replacement for the text : - )

*NOTE I added spaces in the smiley so you could see it.

If you don't believe me, just find a message with smileys in it and
view the message source. You will find that they are the standard
plaintext smileys everyone's been using for ages. TB did nothing to
them. It's a local translation on your machine, which can be disabled
in the Options/Preferences/Viewer settings.

All other e-mail clients will see them as the plaintext smiley (unless
they too convert them locally).

As for it being a waste of developer time, I already wrote to Bob that
this was done off the clock by 9Val. He did all of it in his off-time,
therefore wasted nothing but his own personal time.



-- 
Leif (TB list moderator and fellow end user).

Tagline of the day:
Secret to a long life: Don't die!!!

Using The Bat! 2.11.02 under Windows 2000 5.0
Build 2195 Service Pack 4 on a Pentium 4 2GHz with 512MB



Current version is 2.11.02 | 'Using TBUDL' information:
http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html

Re: Smileys? Mail Chat?? What's becoming of The Bat!?

[Leif Gregory]

Hello Bob,

Friday, June 4, 2004, 1:18:40 PM, you wrote:
Bob> I know I'm venting a bit and am inviting flames here, but I'd
Bob> like to know if anyone else agrees with me on this. I certainly
Bob> hope this isn't an indication of what's to come for The Bat!.

Mail chat, I don't know, but Smileys were added during personal time
by 9Val.. He was not on the RITLabs clock when he did it.

Whether or not you believe it to be a useless feature is up to you,
but bug fixing and whatnot wasn't hurt by 9Vals work. He was on
personal time.



-- 
Leif (TB list moderator and fellow end user).

Tagline of the day:
Be nice to your kids.  They'll choose your nursing home.

Using The Bat! 2.11.02 under Windows 2000 5.0
Build 2195 Service Pack 4 on a Pentium 4 2GHz with 512MB



Current version is 2.11.02 | 'Using TBUDL' information:
http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html

Re: Smileys? Mail Chat?? What's becoming of The Bat!?

[Cyrille]

Hello Bob,

Friday, June 4, 2004, 9:18:40 PM, you wrote:

B> Smileys and Mail Chat- can anyone tell me why Ritlabs has added these
B> silly features to its awesome mailer? Why doesn't
B> Ritlabs just give its user base what they ask for instead of bloating
B> their program with this stuff?
B> I know I'm venting a bit and am inviting flames here, but I'd like to
B> know if anyone else agrees with me on this. I certainly hope this
B> isn't an indication of what's to come for The Bat!.

I agree with you.
I am still hesitating to make TB my default mailer. And what I read on
this list in these last couple of days about v2.11 does not encourage me at
all

--
Best regards,
Cyrille
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]


[ TB! 2.10.01, Windows ME 4.90 Build 3000, Pentium 233Mhz with 95MB ]




Current version is 2.11.02 | 'Using TBUDL' information:
http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html

Re: Smileys? Mail Chat?? What's becoming of The Bat!?

[Allister Jenks]

Saturday, June 5, 2004, 7:32:13 AM, Mark wrote:

MP> Besides, you can disable both features completely if you wish. And
MP> it isn't hard to do so.

Yes, but the inclusion of these features has diverted resource from more
functional and useful features, and from bug elimination.

-- 
Cheers,
 Allister



Current version is 2.11.02 | 'Using TBUDL' information:
http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html

Re: Smileys? Mail Chat?? What's becoming of The Bat!?

[Peter Meyns]

Hi Bob,

on Fri, 4 Jun 2004 15:18:40 -0400GMT, you wrote:

B> Smileys and Mail Chat- can anyone tell me why Ritlabs has added these
B> silly features to its awesome mailer?

I don't know. Maybe because programmers are young people and think
these additions are nice and wanted...?

B> I know I'm venting a bit and am inviting flames here, but I'd like to
B> know if anyone else agrees with me on this. I certainly hope this
B> isn't an indication of what's to come for The Bat!.

No flame needed here. As long as I can disable what I don't need I'm
content. :-)

-- 
Cheers
Peter

I.R.S.: We've got what it takes to take what you've got!

Winamp currently playing: Yusef Lateef - Take the "A" Train/Exactly Like You



Current version is 2.11.02 | 'Using TBUDL' information:
http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html

Re: Smileys? Mail Chat?? What's becoming of The Bat!?

[Mark Partous]

Hello Bob,

Friday, June 4, 2004, 9:18:40 PM, you wrote:

B> Or at least give us the option of
B> installing it as a feature.

You're not on TBBeta? If I remember well, one of the programmers
told it would require too big a rewrite if these would be made
available as plug-ins.

Besides, you can disable both features completely if you wish. And
it isn't hard to do so.

-- 
Best Wishes,
Mark
using The Bat! 2.11.02




Current version is 2.11.02 | 'Using TBUDL' information:
http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html