[Texascavers] Rescheduled: TSC Work Day - Sat Feb 8

[Joe & Evelynn]

The previously announced TSC workday has been rescheduled to Sat, Feb 8.

> On Jan 20, 2020, at 8:53 PM, Joe & Evelynn  wrote:
> 
> There is a work day scheduled at the Texas Speleology Center on Saturday, Feb 
> 1 starting at 9:00 am. We are continuing work on preparing the basement for 
> housing the TSS library and archive. Projects include continuing the wall 
> around the utility area, additional light fixtures, moving some large items, 
> and finishing repainting the walls.
> 
> If you have not been to the TSC, it is located at 14045 North Green Hills 
> Loop, Austin, TX 78737.
> 
> If you have any questions, please let me know. Hope to see you there!
> 
> Thanks,
> Joe Mitchell
> joemitch...@satx.rr.com <mailto:joemitch...@satx.rr.com>
> 
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[Texascavers] TSC Work Day - Sat Feb 1

[Joe & Evelynn]

There is a work day scheduled at the Texas Speleology Center on Saturday, Feb 1 
starting at 9:00 am. We are continuing work on preparing the basement for 
housing the TSS library and archive. Projects include continuing the wall 
around the utility area, additional light fixtures, moving some large items, 
and finishing repainting the walls.

If you have not been to the TSC, it is located at 14045 North Green Hills Loop, 
Austin, TX 78737.

If you have any questions, please let me know. Hope to see you there!

Thanks,
Joe Mitchell
joemitch...@satx.rr.com 

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[Texascavers] Texas Speleological Survey Meeting Announcement

[Joe & Evelynn]

The TSS is holding its Board meeting next Saturday Jan 25 at our old office at 
the JJ Pickle Research Campus in Austin. The meeting will start at 9:30 am. We 
welcome anyone who has an interest in Texas cave data, survey, or developing 
publications to attend. The TSS is currently looking for interested individuals 
to help contribute to our mission of collecting, managing, and disseminating 
information about Texas caves. Our extensive collection of materials is housed 
there and is available for perusal. Directions to the office can be found here:
https://www.texasspeleologicalsurvey.org/about/directions.php 


We hope to see you there!

Thanks,
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[Texascavers] TSC Work Day - Sat Nov 23

[Joe & Evelynn]

There is a work day scheduled at the Texas Speleology Center next Saturday, Nov 
23 starting at 9:00 am. We are continuing work on preparing the basement for 
housing the TSS library and archive. Projects include starting a wall around 
the utility area, wiring in new light fixtures and repainting the walls. Other 
projects are pending as well.

If you have not been to the TSC, it is located at 14045 North Green Hills Loop, 
Austin, TX 78737.

If you have any questions, please let me know. Hope to see you there!

Thanks,
Joe Mitchell
joemitch...@satx.rr.com 

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[Texascavers] TSS Meeting at TCR

[Joe & Evelynn]

Find out what the TSS has been doing the past year and learn about our plans 
for moving to the new Texas Speleology Center! We will hold a brief meeting at 
TCR this Saturday October 12 at 11:30 am near the TSS sales tent. We will be 
done in time for the TCMA meeting at Noon.

Thanks,
Joe___
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Re: [Texascavers] Workday at the TSC this Saturday

[Joe & Evelynn]

Yes, all those could be useful!

Thanks,
Joe

> On Apr 18, 2019, at 8:46 PM, Bob Burnett  wrote:
> 
> Joe, Rune here. Should I bring my string trimmer, blower, vacuum,  mower and 
> /or additional tools and equipment?
> Thanks,
> Rune
>  
> From: Joe & Evelynn
> Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2019 9:40 PM
> To: Texas Cavers
> Subject: [Texascavers] Workday at the TSC this Saturday
>  
> If anyone is available to help, there is a workday at the Texas Speleology 
> Center this Saturday starting at 10 am. Tasks include cleaning up the inside 
> for next weekend’s memorial event for William, weed-eating/mowing outside, 
> and installing a new door. If you need directions, please let me know.
>  
> Thanks,
> Joe Mitchell
> joemitch...@satx.rr.com
> 210-859-2105
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[Texascavers] Workday at the TSC this Saturday

[Joe & Evelynn]

If anyone is available to help, there is a workday at the Texas Speleology 
Center this Saturday starting at 10 am. Tasks include cleaning up the inside 
for next weekend’s memorial event for William, weed-eating/mowing outside, and 
installing a new door. If you need directions, please let me know.

Thanks,
Joe Mitchell
joemitch...@satx.rr.com 
210-859-2105___
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[Texascavers] Work day at the Texas Speleology Center - Sat Nov 3

[Joe & Evelynn]

There will be a work day at the new Texas Speleology Center (TSC) this Saturday 
Nov 3. Come check out this new caver facility which will be the headquarters 
for TSS, TCMA, and AMCS! The work activities are still being planned but may 
include cedar clearing, exterior panelling repair, exterior door replacement, 
and thermostat installation, so bring a variety of tools, etc. to help out. 
Come by at anytime but I expect Austin folks will start showing up around 9:00 
or 9:30 am. Contact Peter Sprouse  or myself for more 
information.

The TSC is located at:

Texas Speleological Survey
14045 North Green Hills Loop
Austin 78737-8619

Let me know if you need more detailed directions. It is near Dripping Springs 
so there are many stores not too far away and the Salt Lick BBQ is just down 
the road in Driftwood.

Thanks,
Joe Mitchell
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[Texascavers] TSS Meeting at TCR

[Joe & Evelynn]

For those who are interesting in learning about the activities of the Texas 
Speleological Survey and seeing what the TSS is currently working on, we will 
be holding a meeting at TCR following the conclusion of the TCMA meeting. We 
will also have all of our publications for sale at the TSS tent, so drop on by!

Thanks,
Joe Mitchell
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[Texascavers] TSS Publication Announcement: "Hypogene Karst of Texas"

[Joe & Evelynn]

The Texas Speleological Survey (TSS) is pleased to announce the release of a 
new publication: "Hypogene Karst of Texas", edited by Kevin Stafford and George 
Veni. This is a freely available publication provided as a downloadable PDF 
from the TSS website. It consists of 9 articles by a various authors describing 
and characterizing the diversity of hypogene karst phenomena across Texas.


More information and the publication download link is available here:

https://www.texasspeleologicalsurvey.org/publications/Monograph-Hypogene.php

Joe Mitchell
President,
Texas Speleological Survey


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[Texascavers] Bexar Grotto Donates $5000 to TSC

[Joe & Evelynn via Texascavers]

A big thank you to the Bexar Grotto for the generous donation of $5000 to the 
new Texas Speleology Center!

The Bexar Grotto is also challenging other grottos around the state to 
contribute and try to meet or beat their contribution.

There have been a number of offers and requests over the past week to provide 
items or store materials at the new facility, and unfortunately we can’t 
accommodate those at this time. While we appreciate everyone’s enthusiasm, we 
still need to setup a management team for the property, help Bill Mixon sort 
through and remove his items, conduct some minor repairs on the property, 
determine the space needs for TSS and TCMA and figure out where everything 
goes, then establish a use plan for the property so that we can both meet the 
needs of cavers and provide a professional-type space for the Texas caving 
organizations.

Thank you!
Joe Mitchell
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[Texascavers] Announcing the Texas Speleology Center

[Joe & Evelynn via Texascavers]

The Texas Speleological Survey (TSS) and the Texas Cave Management Association 
(TCMA) are pleased to announce the new Texas Speleology Center! This facility 
will serve as the new joint headquarters for both organizations and will 
eventually be the new home of the TSS library currently located at the Pickle 
Research campus. The Texas Speleology Center is located near Driftwood, TX 
(southwest of Austin) and is in the former residence of Bill Mixon. The TCMA 
and TSS wish to thank Bill for generously working with us to acquire this 
property, which will serve the entire Texas caving community. 

The Center is located on 5 quiet wooded acres and contains a main building and 
a large metal barn. The main building contains a library, meeting room, office 
space, and a cooking area. It also has a full size basement with its own lower 
entrance and the main level has a large deck. The barn is suitable for storing 
trailers and equipment or holding talks and events. The Center currently holds 
the AMCS library, which we anticipate will continue.

The TCMA and TSS wish to thank the many people who helped this purchase come to 
fruition and we look forward to inviting the Texas caving community to join us 
at the Center in the upcoming year for many projects and events!

Joe Mitchell
President, Texas Speleological Survey

Gregg Williams
President, Texas Cave Management Association
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[Texascavers] Robber Baron Open House Report

[Joe & Evelynn Mitchell via Texascavers]

Yesterday was the 7th Robber Baron Cave Open House held since we started doing 
them in 2008. Even though there were a few brief showers, it was a record 
setting event, shattering previous attendance and fundraising records! We had 
569 visitors get a chance to explore the cave either through the regular 
self-guided tour of several passages close to the entrance or on guided 
off-trail trips to other parts of the cave. The event was very busy all day 
long and there were other activities for visitors while waiting for their time 
to go underground including a TCMA sales table with t-shirt, booklets and guano 
along with photos taken of the visitors while exploring the cave. There were 
multiple exhibitors/vendors including NSS, BCI, TSS, San Antonio Master 
Naturalists, and Sticks & Stones Bat Rescue. We even had a food truck on site. 
More than $5300 were raised for TCMA through donations and sales.

The huge thank you goes to the 67 caver volunteers (listed below) who put in 
nearly 600 hrs yesterday, coming from all over the state including San Antonio, 
Austin, Houston, the DFW area, to make the event such a success. And also to 
those who put in uncounted extra hours preparing for it.

Thanks so much to everyone who has helped make the Open House such a popular 
event for the public and fundraiser for TCMA these past 9 years.

Joe Mitchell


2017 Open House Volunteers

Mike Harris
Lori Harris
Evelynn Mitchell
Kayla Mitchell
Ann Scott
Garry White
Fran Hutchins
Emily McGowan
Kevin McGowan
Don Arburn
Christin Miller
Allan Cobb
Leah Miller
Marvin Miller
Leia Hill
Cyndi McFalls
Derek Weicht
Kendi Weicht
Q. Rodriguez
Steve Gutting
Jason Rodriguez
Roy Wessel
Matt Zappitello
Jess Kelley
Linda Palit
Tom Florer
Mike Nunley
Noble Fisk
Matthew Jaurez
M. Juarez
Jay Jorden
Geary Schindel
Sue Schindel
Jim Kennedy
Ray Hertel
Amy Morton
Tao Fells
Greg Mosier
Joe Schaertl
Gregg Williams
David Adamoski
Lindsey Adamoski
Ross Webb
Ross Webb Jr
Lex Hatzenbuehler
Lyndon Tiu
Barbara Tiu
Emma Tiu
Bennett Lee
Ethen Lee
Pam Campbell
Arron Wertheim
Victoria Sommers
Alex Aceves
Araceli Moreno
Rob Bissett
M.J. Gibbons
Kalina Tostado
Joe Ranzau
Jake Ranzau
Josh Ranzau
Catherine Berkley-Jones
Michael Cicherski
Melissa Cicherski
Sonya Mullerin
Denise Predergast

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[Texascavers] Volunteers Needed for TCMA's Robber Baron Open House

[Joe & Evelynn Mitchell via Texascavers]

Saturday, November 11 is the date of the next Robber Baron Cave Open House and 
TCMA need many volunteers to help make it a success! This is a major 
fundraising event for TCMA, especially fundraising from outside the caving 
community, and is a chance to raise public awareness about TCMA and caves. We 
typically have more than 400 people go through the cave during the day, so need 
lots of volunteers both on the surface to run tables and coordinate cave entry 
and also in the cave to direct people and answer questions. The event runs from 
9 am - 3 pm and after its over, you are welcome stay and explore other parts of 
the cave. There will also be an after-party hosted by the Bissets. 

If you can come and help out, please contact Evelynn at evel...@satx.rr.com or 
via Facebook. She is coordinating volunteers and if you would like to do a 
specific job, let her know what you are interested in doing:
 
Surface Greeter/Support
In-Cave
Tour Guide for guided tours/Advance sign in table
Sinkhole gear table/cave sign in and out
Surface sign-in table
T-shirt sales table
Photo booth/runner

If you are only available for part of the day, that’s fine, just let Evelynn 
know.

If you are coming from out of town and need a place to stay, let us know and 
accommodations can be arranged.

Hope to see you there!

Thanks,
Joe Mitchell

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Re: [Texascavers] lidar in caves

[joe-evelynn]

I've been LIDAR scanning caves here in Texas for the past 3 years with the 
Caveatron. Like the system in the article, you scan while moving through the 
cave rather than on a tripod, plus the Caveatron is like the DistoX in that you 
also use it to collect your survey data. The Australian system does have much 
higher resolution than the Caveatron and uses a very clever scanning method, 
but is 10-20 times as expensive (thousands of dollars) and requires dragging a 
laptop in a backpack around with you to operate the instrument, which is not 
the most practical thing in most caves around here! 

If anyone is interested in learning more about the Caveatron, here is the 
article that appeared in the June 2015 Texas Caver:
https://app.box.com/s/kxjl44tmn95n0vfaelmnisc19vwpp2ts

I currently have a couple of prototype systems built and if anyone is 
interested in borrowing one to try out, please let me know.

Joe Mitchell
joemitch...@satx.rr.com


 Mixon Bill  wrote: 
> The March NSS News, now newly available to NSS members at caves.org, has an 
> article about using conventional LIDAR data to survey a cave. A considerably 
> easier way to do that is described in an article in the Journal of Cave and 
> Karst Studies at 
https://caves.org/pub/journal/PDF/v76/cave-76-03-191.pdf .
However, the article is from Australia, and I don't know that the equipment or 
software are available in the US. -- Mixon

Nature is a hanging judge.

You may "reply" to the address this message
(unless it's a TexasCavers list post)
came from, but for long-term use, save:
Personal: bmi...@alumni.uchicago.edu
AMCS: a...@mexicancaves.org or sa...@mexicancaves.org

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[Texascavers] New TSS Officers

[Joe & Evelynn Mitchell via Texascavers]

The Texas Speleological Survey would like to give a big thank you to outgoing 
President Ron Ralph who has worked hard to lead the organization over the past 
few years! We would also like to thank outgoing Editor Kevin Stafford for his 
work on TSS publications, especially getting the recent high quality "Karst of 
the Urban Corridor”. Finally we would also like to thank outgoing Director 
Travis Scott for his service on the Board as well.

The new TSS officers are:

Secretary: Jim Kennedy
Treasurer: Marvin Miller
Editor: Jerry Atkinson
President: Joe Mitchell

For any newer cavers unfamiliar with the TSS, it is an organization dedicated 
to the collection and management of data and information about Texas caves. The 
TSS produces many publications on Texas caves which may be purchased at Texas 
caving events such as the upcoming TSA Spring Convention and at TCR or from TSS 
Directors who are members of your grotto. The TSS has an a very extensive 
library and cave file collection at its office at the Pickle Research Center of 
the University of Texas in Austin. Cavers are welcome to arrange a visit to 
search the maps and files to conduct your own research. The TSS also solicits 
data from cavers to expand the cave database which can be submitted online 
here: http://www.texasspeleologicalsurvey.org/data_submit/submit.php

If you would like to help out the TSS, we are always looking for new volunteers 
- please contact any Officer or Director for details. For more information on 
the TSS, visit our website at http://www.texasspeleologicalsurvey.org

Thanks,
Joe Mitchell
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[Texascavers] Robber Baron Open House - April 9

[Joe & Evelynn Mitchell via Texascavers]

The next Open House for Robber Baron Cave on scheduled for Saturday, April 9 
and volunteers are needed! This is a big fundraiser for TCMA and we need help 
for taking and selling photographs, registration, selling t-shirts, selling 
concessions, distributing and collecting gear, and of course, a big crew of 
volunteers to camp out in the cave and make sure our visitors don't wander off. 
(Cave volunteers must have their own gear.) If you can participate and there is 
a particular job you would like to do, please e-mail Evelynn, who is serving as 
volunteer coordinator, at evel...@satx.rr.com. If you are just interested in 
helping and don't care what you do, let her know that too. Thanks everyone!

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[Texascavers] Deep Cave Survey Report

[Joe & Evelynn Mitchell via Texascavers]

Saturday, Aug 1 was the latest Deep Cave survey trip. With 19 cavers turning 
out from around the state, we were able to put 6 survey teams in the cave. 
Ellie Falgout led a team with Gary Donham and Wade McDaniel to finish off two 
leads in the Crystal Water and Junction Room areas. Bennett Lee led a team with 
Pam Campbell and Lindsay Smith to continue their previous survey off of 
Lillie’s Leisure which eventual led to a new, but difficult connection to the 
Bear Scratch Hall area. Their team had a nice long day in the cave, coming back 
to the cabin about 1am. Saj Zappitello led a team with Matt Zappitello, and Tom 
Rogers to work on one of several leads in the Rust Room. This lead down into a 
new area below that also connects to the route to Bear Scratch Hall. Marvin 
Miller led a team with Gerry Geletzke and Jake McLeod to work on the seemly 
endless maze in the Miller Time area. On this trip they surveyed back under the 
Forest of Columns Room and made a couple of connections up into it. Their 
survey continued further and eventually tied into the Lost World survey. Though 
they left the cave at the same time as most other teams, they did an amazing 
124 m of survey finding many new leads. Don Arburn lead a team with Arron 
Wertheim, Vicki DeLeon and initially Mike Harris, although he elected to work 
on trail markers in the Forest of Columns area and eventually hooked up with 
Marvin’s team. Don’s team continued work below the Helictite Room work on some 
remaining leads and it looks like this extensive maze is starting to be wrapped 
up. Finally, my team included Galen Falgout and Jill Orr and we started by 
visiting the MCM Room to get photos, collect a mud sample, and check for 
remaining leads. After concluded there were none, we proceeded down to an area 
below the Helictite Room but back under the Forest of Columns to work on 
several lead there. Two of these connected to another survey while the other 
two eventually ended, completing this area.

All told, the teams had a great day surveying 269.2 total meters. After 
subtracting for overlapping shots and tie-ins, this brings the new length of 
the cave to 5518.3 m. A more detailed report on this on other recent survey 
trips will appear in the next issue of the Texas Caver.

Thanks,
Joe Mitchell
joemitch...@satx.rr.com
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Re: [Texascavers] texas caver articles

[Joe & Evelynn via Texascavers]

Still working on mine. When do you need them?

Joe
Sent from my iPhone

> On Jun 4, 2015, at 2:30 PM, Jill Orr via Texascavers 
>  wrote:
> 
> Hi Everyone,
>  
> The TC  is in urgent and desperate need of articles for the next issue.
> All of the regular contributors are too busy for this issue – so if you’ve 
> been thinking of submitting an article, never written an article, or have a 
> project to update us on  - now is the time to do it!!  
>  
> Thanks in advance!
>  
> 
> jill orr
> graphic design
> 210.931-4633
> jillorr.businesscatalyst.com
>  
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[Texascavers] Robber Baron Open House on Nov. 1st

[Joe & Evelynn Mitchell via Texascavers]

The next Robber Baron Open House is coming up on Sat, Nov 1, 2014! This is a 
great event for the public to visit and learn about a wild cave and also a 
great fundraising opportunity for TCMA. Many volunteers are needed to make this 
happen and we would love to have your help either in the cave or on the 
surface. 

 

We request that everyone be at the cave by 8:00 am at the latest since there is 
a lot to setup. If you can be there earlier, that would be even better. Lunch 
and water will be provided to all volunteers, however if can bring you own 
water bottle that would be better, especially if you plan to work in the cave. 

 

We will need at least 15-20 people working in the cave and another 15 or more 
on the surface. If you know of anyone else who would like to help, let them 
know - we could use the assistance!

 

People who plan to work in the cave will need to bring all of their own gear. 
Every bit of loaner gear is in use by the public. 

 

Kurt and Kitty Menking are planning to host a covered dish party at their place 
after the RBC open house. (Bring something you want to share.) There will be 
burgers, venison sausage, and okra on the grill.  Please RSVP if you plan to 
attend the after party so that our hosts can know how many to prepare for.

 

Accommodations can be found for anyone staying overnight from out of town. It 
is likely that there will be a Government Canyon Survey on the day following 
the open for those wanting to stay and go caving. Marvin Miller is the contact 
for that survey, so check in with him if you would like to go to Government 
Canyon.

 

Let me know if you can come and help with this big TCMA fund-raising event! We 
have a lot of fun each time we do it, so we hope you can join us to represent 
TCMA.

 

Please contact Evelynn Mitchell if you can volunteer at evel...@satx.rr.com or 
210-288-7872.___
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[Texascavers] Deep Cave Survey - Sept 20

[Joe & Evelynn Mitchell via Texascavers]

There are a few spots open still for next Saturday's Deep Cave survey trip. If 
you are interested, please let me know as soon as possible.

Thanks,
Joe Mitchell
210-859-2105
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[Texascavers] Deep Cave Survey Report - May 17, 2014

[Joe & Evelynn Mitchell]

Saturday, May 17 was the 10th Deep Cave survey trip since the project resumed 
in 2011. It was also Don Arburn's birthday and we were joined on this trip by 
Jenni Arburn who baked cupcakes for everyone and Allan Cobb who was generous 
enough to cook all of our meals for us. Thanks!

As with the previous trip in February, six teams were fielded in the cave. 
Teams were scattered through the cave following up on leads and unfinished work 
from previous trips.

Geary Schindel, Aaron Wertheim, and Vicky DeLeon, continued work on the Tourist 
Route resurvey from the Hall of Masks up toward the Entrance Room. In the 
process, they discovered a previously undocumented side passage off of the 
Swiss Cheese Corridor and added it to the survey for 5 shots and a total of 
19.9 m.

Don Arburn, Steve Gutting, and Gary Dunham continued to survey the lower part 
of the Tourist Route survey through the Corkscrew to the Helictite Room. Though 
difficult and with a lot of high angle shots, they surveyed 9 stations for 37.5 
m, completing the route.

Marvin Miller, Gerry Geletske, and Chris Lafferty worked on Miller Time Room 
leads. The started with a detailed check of the west wall. Chris found a hammer 
lead that appears to get larger after 3 m and he worked on it for a while. 
Then, they started the survey finding a nice room that was 6 m long by 5 m 
wide. The ceiling is one continuous slab of flat rock at an angle of 40 
degrees. A lead from the room connected back to R9 from a previous survey trip. 
Reviewing the R survey notes, they saw that two leads were marked north of R9. 
These were checked and found to lead to a room named "The Brewery."  
Afterwards, Chris worked on his hammer lead some more and Marvin took some 
photos. On the way out, they noted a lot of vent holes going down. Although 
some lead back to the Miller Time room, others did not and have never been 
checked. Through one hole you can see down at least 6 m and will be good leads 
for a future trip. Marvin's team surveyed a total of 23 shots for 71.9 m.

In the central parts of the cave, Bennett Lee, Pam Campbell, Joe Schaertl, and 
Drew Thompson were making an attempt to fill in the long "hole" that still 
exists down the middle of the cave, which is only traversed by one known route. 
Starting in the lower part of Bear Scratch Hall, they scouted multiple leads, 
many of which terminated. Eventually they found one that went, connecting 
across the "hole" to the Square Ceiling Room. A lead off of this route was then 
followed and found to make an even shorter, almost straight line connection to 
the Square Ceiling Room. This may now be the easiest route to the back parts of 
the cave, although there is still quite a bit of crawling and squeezing to get 
through this area. Other leads heading in other directions were checked and 
found to either end or connect to different portions of the N survey and remain 
to be surveyed. The team chalked up 12 shots for a total of 34.6 m.

Ellie Watson, Galen Falgout, and Tom Rogers as "Team Skins" tackled the area 
near the Nutcracker Chimney which had some leads that Galen wanted to follow up 
on. After squeezing down a slanting, tight lead, they surveyed through areas 
totally coated in coral and aragonite. The rooms were well decorated with 
dripping formations and one room had a mud floor. Their survey extended a long 
distance, eventually approaching two other surveys near the Crooked Broomstick 
Room, but not quite connecting. They surveyed 26 shots for 83.3 m.

Also at the west end of the cave, Joe Mitchell, Jim Kennedy, and Linda Palit 
had the objective of following up on several leads to try to relocate the last 
un-found section of the cave from the 1965 map. We brought Jim along to make 
him jealous of all the cool stuff we are finding in Deep! :-) At our starting 
point, as we were trying to decide which of the two leads to follow first, we 
heard voices and we saw Galen in one of the leads. That killed our first option 
so we followed the other route down into a couple of rooms that eventually led 
a complex maze area with multiple small routes. The upgoing route came into a 
junction room with 6 leads going off. Two didn't go, but the one heading 
westward and down came into a larger room which was well decorated with active 
formations. After comparing notes with the 1965 map, we concluded that this was 
the Broomstick Room at the far western edge of the map, though the 
“Broomsticks” were sized more for midgets. Behind this room, we followed a 
downsloping route which continued to be well decorated until reaching a spot 
where Linda found “DE 1965” etched in the mud. This was apparently the end of 
the original exploration of the cave and completed the rediscovery of the lost 
routes. However, a small lead with airflow was found that appeared to go to a 
room, but since a bit of enlargement would be needed, we left it for a future 
trip. Back in the junction room, one of the other leads led up 

[Texascavers] Deep Cave Survey Report - 2/15/2014

[Joe & Evelynn Mitchell]

This is a preliminary report on the Deep Cave survey of February 15, 2014. Look 
for a more detailed report in a future issue of the Texas Caver.

This weekend marked the resumption of the project, which had been on hiatus 
since last May. We had one of the highest turnouts ever with a full 20 survey 
team members and Rob Bisset who generously donated his weekend to make and 
install new front and back screen doors on the cabin. Now we can enjoy the 
breeze inside with no bugs! Thanks Rob!

There were a record 6 survey teams set loose in the cave. Most of the focus of 
this trip was tie-ins and clean up of old survey and re-survey of the main 
tourist route between the Entrance and Helictite Room. The re-survey is needed 
since some sections of this route are poorly surveyed or not surveyed at all. 
But with so many teams, there was also plenty of new passage to be found, too.

Geary Schindel, Aaron Wertheim, and Vicky DeLeon, and Gregg Williams worked on 
the Tourist Route resurvey from the Hall of Masks up to the Entrance Room which 
remains to be finished next time. The team also carried out a number of 
geological measurement of the fault strikes and dips through this area and also 
measured the position of the chert nodule layer through the Swiss Cheese 
Corridor.

Don Arburn, Steve Gutting, and Tom Florer continued the Tourist Route survey on 
down through the Forest of Columns and into the Corkscrew. They completed about 
half of the corkscrew with the remainder of the route into the Helictite Room 
left for next time.

Back down in the lower part of the Entrance Room, myself, Tom Rogers, Gerry 
Geletzke, and Betsy Ferris had the objective of re-locating the A40's survey 
which appeared to have some promising leads along it and at the end. After much 
searching and unsuccessfully attempting to recreate some of the shots, we found 
some E-survey markers. After hunting around a while, I determined that the A 
and E survey were direct overlaps, resulting in a large negative length for our 
survey for the day! We spent the rest of the day struggling to break even, 
first by tying in a portion of the A survey we could find with the E and G 
surveys. We then went lead hunting and found one that connected to the KC 
survey and tied that in to the E survey. Going on to the end of the E, we tied 
into the KA survey. Following an additional lead off of KA, we surveyed down 
into a grim and sharp coral crawl, which eventually ended in a pit.

Out at the west end of the cave, Bennett Lee, Pam Campbell, and Wade McDaniel 
went to make an attempt to locate the missing "Big Room" from the 1965 survey. 
Their survey led them from what I considered the most likely starting point 
through a tight squeeze and eventually to the LB survey without finding any 
"Big Room". They then spent considerable time searching around and examining 
the old map. Eventually they starting finding things that matched up and 
finally solved the puzzle - the "Big Room" was in fact Metropolis and not an 
unknown room. The 1965 map shows what we now call the Metropolis Room twice in 
completely separate areas of the cave. They must have entered it from different 
directions and just did not realize it was the same room.

Meanwhile, Saj Zappitello, Matt Zappitello, and Jill Orr also worked on finding 
another lost piece of the 1965 map that connects the Junction Room to the 
Square Ceiling Room. In this they were successful and also found another lead 
that eventually connected from there into Metropolis. They then followed 
another lead for two stations until calling it a day with going passage.

Ellie Watson, Galen Falgout, and Joe Schaertl went out the Four Seasons Room at 
the far reaches of the cave to continue the survey there. This is a tougher 
than average trip since it is about the farthest known location from the 
entrance and you have to drag vertical gear all the way there. After dropping 
the pit, they took off into the lead at the far end, but found that it ended in 
a drain after only a few stations. They were undeterred through so decided to 
check some possible leads at the top of the white flowstone slope near the drop 
into the room. They did this by stripping down to their skivvies and barefooted 
their way carefully up the slope and between the formations. A lead was found, 
but all the coral was not conducive to the happiness all their exposed bare 
skin, so they retreated, leaving it for a better equipped team. Dressed and 
back at the top of the drop, the followed a lead which lead into considerable 
passage, part of which came out directly above the Four Seasons Room and 
another part eventually led to a new tie in with the LB survey just below 
Metropolis.

Although everyone worked hard and lot of meters were surveyed, a lot of 
previous survey was deleted since it either overlapped they new survey or 
overlapped other surveys but had not yet been identified as such. In the end, 
we had a net gain of 146 m, giving 

[Texascavers] Robber Baron Open House - Sat Apr 27

[Joe & Evelynn Mitchell]

The Robber Baron Open House is coming up in less than 2 weeks and we will need 
all the help we can get both on the surface and in the cave. Please bring your 
own gear if you plan to work in the cave. Lunch will be provided for 
volunteers. If you can, please try to arrive by 8:15 am so we can get 
everything organized before we open to the public at 9:00 am. If you can only 
help part of the day, that would be great also. 

We could probably use some outdoor chairs or a table if you have them (let me 
know if you are going to bring them.) Also, if you have any large water coolers 
for volunteers, please let me know.

There will be an after party at the Schindel's house for all volunteers 
(probably starting around 6:00 pm). Please bring a dish to share. If you are 
coming from out of town and need a place to stay, let me know and I can set you 
up.

Please contact me if you have any questions. Hope to see you there!

Thanks,
Joe Mitchell
210-859-2105
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[Texascavers] Robber Baron Open House - Sat Apr 27

[Joe & Evelynn Mitchell]

The Robber Baron Open House is coming up in less than 2 weeks and we will need 
all the help we can get both on the surface and in the cave. Please bring your 
own gear if you plan to work in the cave. Lunch will be provided for 
volunteers. If you can, please try to arrive by 8:15 am so we can get 
everything organized before we open to the public at 9:00 am. If you can only 
help part of the day, that would be great also. 

We could probably use some outdoor chairs or a table if you have them (let me 
know if you are going to bring them.) Also, if you have any large water coolers 
for volunteers, please let me know.

There will be an after party at the Schindel's house for all volunteers 
(probably starting around 6:00 pm). Please bring a dish to share. If you are 
coming from out of town and need a place to stay, let me know and I can set you 
up.

Please contact me if you have any questions. Hope to see you there!

Thanks,
Joe Mitchell
210-859-2105
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[Texascavers] Robber Baron Open House - Sat Apr 27

[Joe & Evelynn Mitchell]

The Robber Baron Open House is coming up in less than 2 weeks and we will need 
all the help we can get both on the surface and in the cave. Please bring your 
own gear if you plan to work in the cave. Lunch will be provided for 
volunteers. If you can, please try to arrive by 8:15 am so we can get 
everything organized before we open to the public at 9:00 am. If you can only 
help part of the day, that would be great also. 

We could probably use some outdoor chairs or a table if you have them (let me 
know if you are going to bring them.) Also, if you have any large water coolers 
for volunteers, please let me know.

There will be an after party at the Schindel's house for all volunteers 
(probably starting around 6:00 pm). Please bring a dish to share. If you are 
coming from out of town and need a place to stay, let me know and I can set you 
up.

Please contact me if you have any questions. Hope to see you there!

Thanks,
Joe Mitchell
210-859-2105
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[Texascavers] Robber Baron Webpage Revisions

[Joe & Evelynn Mitchell]

The Robber Baron webpage has recently undergone a significant overhaul with 
lots of new content, and an expanded history section as well as more maps. Feel 
free to check it out: www.tcmacaves.org/robberbaron

Joe Mitchell
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[Texascavers] Robber Baron Webpage Revisions

[Joe & Evelynn Mitchell]

The Robber Baron webpage has recently undergone a significant overhaul with 
lots of new content, and an expanded history section as well as more maps. Feel 
free to check it out: www.tcmacaves.org/robberbaron

Joe Mitchell
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[Texascavers] Robber Baron Webpage Revisions

[Joe & Evelynn Mitchell]

The Robber Baron webpage has recently undergone a significant overhaul with 
lots of new content, and an expanded history section as well as more maps. Feel 
free to check it out: www.tcmacaves.org/robberbaron

Joe Mitchell
-
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[Texascavers] Call for volunteers for TCMA's Robber Baron Open House

[Joe & Evelynn Mitchell]

TCMA is again hosting a public open house at Robber Baron Preserve on Saturday, 
April 27. This is one of TCMA's biggest fundraising events, especially 
fundraising from non-cavers, and is a chance for TCMA and cavers to raise 
public awareness about caves. We typically have more than 400 people go through 
the cave during the open house, so need lots of volunteers both on the surface 
run tables and coordinate cave entry and also in the cave to direct people and 
answer questions. The event runs from 9am - 3pm and after its over, you are 
welcome stay and explore other parts of the Robber Baron. If you are coming 
from out of town and need a place to stay, let me know and accommodations can 
be arranged.

Please let me know if you have any questions.

Thanks,
Joe Mitchell
210-859-2105
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[Texascavers] Call for volunteers for TCMA's Robber Baron Open House

[Joe & Evelynn Mitchell]

TCMA is again hosting a public open house at Robber Baron Preserve on Saturday, 
April 27. This is one of TCMA's biggest fundraising events, especially 
fundraising from non-cavers, and is a chance for TCMA and cavers to raise 
public awareness about caves. We typically have more than 400 people go through 
the cave during the open house, so need lots of volunteers both on the surface 
run tables and coordinate cave entry and also in the cave to direct people and 
answer questions. The event runs from 9am - 3pm and after its over, you are 
welcome stay and explore other parts of the Robber Baron. If you are coming 
from out of town and need a place to stay, let me know and accommodations can 
be arranged.

Please let me know if you have any questions.

Thanks,
Joe Mitchell
210-859-2105
-
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[Texascavers] Call for volunteers for TCMA's Robber Baron Open House

[Joe & Evelynn Mitchell]

TCMA is again hosting a public open house at Robber Baron Preserve on Saturday, 
April 27. This is one of TCMA's biggest fundraising events, especially 
fundraising from non-cavers, and is a chance for TCMA and cavers to raise 
public awareness about caves. We typically have more than 400 people go through 
the cave during the open house, so need lots of volunteers both on the surface 
run tables and coordinate cave entry and also in the cave to direct people and 
answer questions. The event runs from 9am - 3pm and after its over, you are 
welcome stay and explore other parts of the Robber Baron. If you are coming 
from out of town and need a place to stay, let me know and accommodations can 
be arranged.

Please let me know if you have any questions.

Thanks,
Joe Mitchell
210-859-2105
-
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[Texascavers] Deep Survey Trip

[Joe & Evelynn Mitchell]

I  have a couple of openings for the next Deep Cave Survey trip, on Sat. Feb 9. 
If you are interested, please let me know as soon as possible. Surveying 
experience is desired!

Thanks,
Joe Mitchell
210-859-2105
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[Texascavers] Deep Survey Trip

[Joe & Evelynn Mitchell]

I  have a couple of openings for the next Deep Cave Survey trip, on Sat. Feb 9. 
If you are interested, please let me know as soon as possible. Surveying 
experience is desired!

Thanks,
Joe Mitchell
210-859-2105
-
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[Texascavers] Deep Survey Trip

[Joe & Evelynn Mitchell]

I  have a couple of openings for the next Deep Cave Survey trip, on Sat. Feb 9. 
If you are interested, please let me know as soon as possible. Surveying 
experience is desired!

Thanks,
Joe Mitchell
210-859-2105
-
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[Texascavers] Deep Cave Survey Report

[Joe & Evelynn Mitchell]

This weekend was the most recent survey trip to TCMA's Deep Cave. A total of 19 
people attended with 16 going underground. The trip was extremely productive 
with 328 m surveyed. The cave blew past Punkin Cave, topped the 4 km threshold, 
and even inched ahead of Spring Creek to become the 10th longest caves in Texas 
with a new length of 4145.5 m.

Don Arburn lead a team with Pam Campbell, Ted Lee, and Joe Schaertl to the area 
below the Helictite Room. They surveyed 10 stations for a total of 41.5 m. They 
first rechecked a couple of previously surveyed pits in the area finding 
several leads on one drop called "Mary's Pit". Their main survey from the south 
end of the Helictite Room led them down into a new deep-going route which had a 
number of unusual formations on the ceiling of shallow domes. They stopped only 
10 m above the depth of the deepest known part of the cave with several leads 
and including at least one going deeper still.

Bennett Lee lead a team with Steve Gutting and Mike Harris back to the KB 
survey below the Entrance Room to explore some down-going leads. They surveyed 
12 stations for 44.2 m. The discovered a sizable room they named "Popcorn 
Heaven" and the first foot-deep standing pool of water to be found in the cave.

Ellie Watson lead a team with Galen Falgout and Wade McDaniel to pick up the P 
survey below the West Chasm beyond the Crooked Broomstick Room. They surveyed 
16 stations for 66.3 m. Initially they broke through a constriction into a new 
room off of the previous end of the P-survey which continued for a number of 
stations until it ended in a flowstone plug. Returning to the P survey, they 
followed another lead which turned out to be Dickey's Coral Crawl from the 
1960's map, eventually connecting it up to the main Western Rift. They then 
checked several leads near the base of the climb to the Nutcracker Chimney, 
finding one tight lead that continued, but ruling out other options.

I led a team with Jill Orr and Tom Rogers out to Metropolis at the west end of 
the cave. We surveyed 19 station for 74.6 m. We worked on cleaning up the 
previously unfinished sketch of Lower Metropolis and then surveyed up into 
Upper Metropolis finding a Wall of Leads in one area. After continuing up and 
topping out the room, we return to push one of the many leads and re-discovered 
"Norm's Room" from the 1965 map of the cave. This room proved to be large and 
very well decorated with a Butterscotch Waterfall, giant Butterscotch Sunday 
formation, and Twin Totems. A couple of small leads led in a various directions 
and another lead led down to a large walking corridor passage that continued.

Finally Marvin Miller lead a 14 hr marathon survey with Gerry Geletzke and Ryan 
Monjaras to the Miller Time area. They surveyed an outstanding 31 stations for 
102.1 m. Their survey uncovered an extensive new section of the cave that heads 
to the southwest and eventually looped back under the Crooked Broomstick Room, 
but at a much lower level than anything else known in the area. Among other 
leads, they found a passage marked with a smoke inscription of "5-69", which 
continued on for an estimated 100 m but has not yet been surveyed.

Surface support was provided by Jenni Arburn, Evelynn Mitchell, and Kayla 
Mitchell who spent the day relaxing in the cool weather, carving pumpkins and 
preparing a great dinner of spaghetti, salad and pies for the tired survey 
teams to enjoy upon their return. 

Joe Mitchell






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[Texascavers] Deep Cave Survey Report

[Joe & Evelynn Mitchell]

This weekend was the most recent survey trip to TCMA's Deep Cave. A total of 19 
people attended with 16 going underground. The trip was extremely productive 
with 328 m surveyed. The cave blew past Punkin Cave, topped the 4 km threshold, 
and even inched ahead of Spring Creek to become the 10th longest caves in Texas 
with a new length of 4145.5 m.

Don Arburn lead a team with Pam Campbell, Ted Lee, and Joe Schaertl to the area 
below the Helictite Room. They surveyed 10 stations for a total of 41.5 m. They 
first rechecked a couple of previously surveyed pits in the area finding 
several leads on one drop called "Mary's Pit". Their main survey from the south 
end of the Helictite Room led them down into a new deep-going route which had a 
number of unusual formations on the ceiling of shallow domes. They stopped only 
10 m above the depth of the deepest known part of the cave with several leads 
and including at least one going deeper still.

Bennett Lee lead a team with Steve Gutting and Mike Harris back to the KB 
survey below the Entrance Room to explore some down-going leads. They surveyed 
12 stations for 44.2 m. The discovered a sizable room they named "Popcorn 
Heaven" and the first foot-deep standing pool of water to be found in the cave.

Ellie Watson lead a team with Galen Falgout and Wade McDaniel to pick up the P 
survey below the West Chasm beyond the Crooked Broomstick Room. They surveyed 
16 stations for 66.3 m. Initially they broke through a constriction into a new 
room off of the previous end of the P-survey which continued for a number of 
stations until it ended in a flowstone plug. Returning to the P survey, they 
followed another lead which turned out to be Dickey's Coral Crawl from the 
1960's map, eventually connecting it up to the main Western Rift. They then 
checked several leads near the base of the climb to the Nutcracker Chimney, 
finding one tight lead that continued, but ruling out other options.

I led a team with Jill Orr and Tom Rogers out to Metropolis at the west end of 
the cave. We surveyed 19 station for 74.6 m. We worked on cleaning up the 
previously unfinished sketch of Lower Metropolis and then surveyed up into 
Upper Metropolis finding a Wall of Leads in one area. After continuing up and 
topping out the room, we return to push one of the many leads and re-discovered 
"Norm's Room" from the 1965 map of the cave. This room proved to be large and 
very well decorated with a Butterscotch Waterfall, giant Butterscotch Sunday 
formation, and Twin Totems. A couple of small leads led in a various directions 
and another lead led down to a large walking corridor passage that continued.

Finally Marvin Miller lead a 14 hr marathon survey with Gerry Geletzke and Ryan 
Monjaras to the Miller Time area. They surveyed an outstanding 31 stations for 
102.1 m. Their survey uncovered an extensive new section of the cave that heads 
to the southwest and eventually looped back under the Crooked Broomstick Room, 
but at a much lower level than anything else known in the area. Among other 
leads, they found a passage marked with a smoke inscription of "5-69", which 
continued on for an estimated 100 m but has not yet been surveyed.

Surface support was provided by Jenni Arburn, Evelynn Mitchell, and Kayla 
Mitchell who spent the day relaxing in the cool weather, carving pumpkins and 
preparing a great dinner of spaghetti, salad and pies for the tired survey 
teams to enjoy upon their return. 

Joe Mitchell






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[Texascavers] Deep Cave Survey Report

[Joe & Evelynn Mitchell]

This weekend was the most recent survey trip to TCMA's Deep Cave. A total of 19 
people attended with 16 going underground. The trip was extremely productive 
with 328 m surveyed. The cave blew past Punkin Cave, topped the 4 km threshold, 
and even inched ahead of Spring Creek to become the 10th longest caves in Texas 
with a new length of 4145.5 m.

Don Arburn lead a team with Pam Campbell, Ted Lee, and Joe Schaertl to the area 
below the Helictite Room. They surveyed 10 stations for a total of 41.5 m. They 
first rechecked a couple of previously surveyed pits in the area finding 
several leads on one drop called "Mary's Pit". Their main survey from the south 
end of the Helictite Room led them down into a new deep-going route which had a 
number of unusual formations on the ceiling of shallow domes. They stopped only 
10 m above the depth of the deepest known part of the cave with several leads 
and including at least one going deeper still.

Bennett Lee lead a team with Steve Gutting and Mike Harris back to the KB 
survey below the Entrance Room to explore some down-going leads. They surveyed 
12 stations for 44.2 m. The discovered a sizable room they named "Popcorn 
Heaven" and the first foot-deep standing pool of water to be found in the cave.

Ellie Watson lead a team with Galen Falgout and Wade McDaniel to pick up the P 
survey below the West Chasm beyond the Crooked Broomstick Room. They surveyed 
16 stations for 66.3 m. Initially they broke through a constriction into a new 
room off of the previous end of the P-survey which continued for a number of 
stations until it ended in a flowstone plug. Returning to the P survey, they 
followed another lead which turned out to be Dickey's Coral Crawl from the 
1960's map, eventually connecting it up to the main Western Rift. They then 
checked several leads near the base of the climb to the Nutcracker Chimney, 
finding one tight lead that continued, but ruling out other options.

I led a team with Jill Orr and Tom Rogers out to Metropolis at the west end of 
the cave. We surveyed 19 station for 74.6 m. We worked on cleaning up the 
previously unfinished sketch of Lower Metropolis and then surveyed up into 
Upper Metropolis finding a Wall of Leads in one area. After continuing up and 
topping out the room, we return to push one of the many leads and re-discovered 
"Norm's Room" from the 1965 map of the cave. This room proved to be large and 
very well decorated with a Butterscotch Waterfall, giant Butterscotch Sunday 
formation, and Twin Totems. A couple of small leads led in a various directions 
and another lead led down to a large walking corridor passage that continued.

Finally Marvin Miller lead a 14 hr marathon survey with Gerry Geletzke and Ryan 
Monjaras to the Miller Time area. They surveyed an outstanding 31 stations for 
102.1 m. Their survey uncovered an extensive new section of the cave that heads 
to the southwest and eventually looped back under the Crooked Broomstick Room, 
but at a much lower level than anything else known in the area. Among other 
leads, they found a passage marked with a smoke inscription of "5-69", which 
continued on for an estimated 100 m but has not yet been surveyed.

Surface support was provided by Jenni Arburn, Evelynn Mitchell, and Kayla 
Mitchell who spent the day relaxing in the cool weather, carving pumpkins and 
preparing a great dinner of spaghetti, salad and pies for the tired survey 
teams to enjoy upon their return. 

Joe Mitchell






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Re: [Texascavers] DistoX X2 Whatever.

[Joe & Evelynn]

Imagine not only distance, azimuth and inclination recorded in one shot to a 
memory card but also the ability to produce passage wall outlines and running 
profiles just by walking between the stations. Plus take cross sections at any 
point or measure room outlines.  All data is pre-formatted for direct import 
into Walls. 

Steve Gutting, Gregg Williams and I are building such a device and an early 
prototype has already been cave tested. The next prototype with a full set of 
sensors and a touchscreen GUI is nearly complete. 

And yes, it has a laser.

Joe
Sent from my iPhone

On Aug 24, 2012, at 9:54 PM, S S  wrote:

> Nope.  I was asking about the DistoX mod card for the Leica DX.It gives 
> you azimuth, elevation, and distance in 1 shot.  And its got a LASER beam!
> 
> No more bag of instruments and tape to drag.  Two people can do a survey in 
> no time.   
> 
> 
> Scott Serur
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- Sent from my HP TouchPad
> On Aug 24, 2012 7:17 PM, Fofo  wrote: 
> Hey Bennett. 
> 
> Sorry if there is some confusion, and maybe Serur was asking about the 
> Disto just as a distance measuring tool and in that case, yeah, the 
> D210XT is great. 
> 
> But there are some aftermarket modifications that can be made to the  
> (now obsolete) Disto A3 that make it measure azimuth and inclination as 
> well as distance, so it becomes an "all in one" survey tool (and if you 
> couple it via Bluetooth with a PDA running PocketTopo or Auriga, it's a 
> "paperless survey": http://paperless.bheeb.ch/ ). 
> 
> There is an effort to be able to modify the newer Distos, but it 
> apparently has been much more challenging, that's what I was talking about. 
> 
> Take care, 
> 
> - Fofo 
> 
> 
> 
> On 24/08/12 17:07, Bennett Lee wrote: 
> > I've been using the replacement model, the Disto D210XT, for several 
> > months. I've been happy with it. Not waterproof, but dust/water 
> > resistant enough to handle muddy caves, brief drops in water, and 
> > cleaning off in my sink at home. More features than we need cave 
> > surveying, but the ones we do need (units, single shot, max/min 
> > distance) are accessible and easy to use. Plus the 3-line display lets 
> > you quickly pop off 3 shots and average. Nice rubber grip. Runs on 2 
> > AAA batteries, which most of us cavers have on hand in the cave. 
> > 
> > Haven't heard about the issues Fofo mentioned--mine has been working 
> > great. My only complaint is that the large screen is easily scratched, 
> > but so far mine has been surviving cave abuse quite well. I'm so 
> > pleased that I've been considering buying a second so I have a backup 
> > that I can use while sketching. The D210XT runs $219 online. 
> > 
> > --Bennett 
> > 
> > 
> > -Original Message- 
> > From: Fofo [mailto:f...@gzluna.com] 
> > Sent: Friday, August 24, 2012 10:09 AM 
> > To: texascavers 
> > Subject: Re: [Texascavers] DistoX X2 Whatever. 
> > 
> > Yeah. Kevin Dixon made a batch of Disto X boards last year, and it was 
> > probably the last one since some of the parts are obsolete and hard to 
> > find (and the Leica A3 which this board fits is also pretty hard to find 
> > now). 
> > 
> > I'm excited about the Disto DXT (the newer version), apparently there 
> > have been several issues, but I hope that they figure them out soon. 
> > 
> > So, Serur, at this point it sounds like your best bet would be to find 
> > someone who owns a Disto X and hopefully you can borrow it. 
> > 
> > - Fofo 
> > 
> > Mark Minton wrote, on 24/8/12 6:55 : 
> >> The Disto X is no longer being made. However a newer version is under 
> >> development. See 
> >>  >> ent.html>, 
> >> . 
> >> 
> >> Mark 
> >> 
> >> At 03:07 AM 8/24/2012, S S wrote: 
> >>> Does anyone know where you can get a DistoX or whatever the latest 
> >>> revision is. And any feedback on these. 
> >>> 
> >>> Serur 
> > 
> > - 
> > Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: 
> > texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com 
> > For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com 
> > 
> > 
> > - 
> > Visit our website: http://texascavers.com 
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com 
> > For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com 
> > 
> 
> - 
> Visit our website: http://texascavers.com 
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com 
> For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com 
> 

Re: [Texascavers] DistoX X2 Whatever.

[Joe & Evelynn]

Imagine not only distance, azimuth and inclination recorded in one shot to a 
memory card but also the ability to produce passage wall outlines and running 
profiles just by walking between the stations. Plus take cross sections at any 
point or measure room outlines.  All data is pre-formatted for direct import 
into Walls. 

Steve Gutting, Gregg Williams and I are building such a device and an early 
prototype has already been cave tested. The next prototype with a full set of 
sensors and a touchscreen GUI is nearly complete. 

And yes, it has a laser.

Joe
Sent from my iPhone

On Aug 24, 2012, at 9:54 PM, S S  wrote:

> Nope.  I was asking about the DistoX mod card for the Leica DX.It gives 
> you azimuth, elevation, and distance in 1 shot.  And its got a LASER beam!
> 
> No more bag of instruments and tape to drag.  Two people can do a survey in 
> no time.   
> 
> 
> Scott Serur
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- Sent from my HP TouchPad
> On Aug 24, 2012 7:17 PM, Fofo  wrote: 
> Hey Bennett. 
> 
> Sorry if there is some confusion, and maybe Serur was asking about the 
> Disto just as a distance measuring tool and in that case, yeah, the 
> D210XT is great. 
> 
> But there are some aftermarket modifications that can be made to the  
> (now obsolete) Disto A3 that make it measure azimuth and inclination as 
> well as distance, so it becomes an "all in one" survey tool (and if you 
> couple it via Bluetooth with a PDA running PocketTopo or Auriga, it's a 
> "paperless survey": http://paperless.bheeb.ch/ ). 
> 
> There is an effort to be able to modify the newer Distos, but it 
> apparently has been much more challenging, that's what I was talking about. 
> 
> Take care, 
> 
> - Fofo 
> 
> 
> 
> On 24/08/12 17:07, Bennett Lee wrote: 
> > I've been using the replacement model, the Disto D210XT, for several 
> > months. I've been happy with it. Not waterproof, but dust/water 
> > resistant enough to handle muddy caves, brief drops in water, and 
> > cleaning off in my sink at home. More features than we need cave 
> > surveying, but the ones we do need (units, single shot, max/min 
> > distance) are accessible and easy to use. Plus the 3-line display lets 
> > you quickly pop off 3 shots and average. Nice rubber grip. Runs on 2 
> > AAA batteries, which most of us cavers have on hand in the cave. 
> > 
> > Haven't heard about the issues Fofo mentioned--mine has been working 
> > great. My only complaint is that the large screen is easily scratched, 
> > but so far mine has been surviving cave abuse quite well. I'm so 
> > pleased that I've been considering buying a second so I have a backup 
> > that I can use while sketching. The D210XT runs $219 online. 
> > 
> > --Bennett 
> > 
> > 
> > -Original Message- 
> > From: Fofo [mailto:f...@gzluna.com] 
> > Sent: Friday, August 24, 2012 10:09 AM 
> > To: texascavers 
> > Subject: Re: [Texascavers] DistoX X2 Whatever. 
> > 
> > Yeah. Kevin Dixon made a batch of Disto X boards last year, and it was 
> > probably the last one since some of the parts are obsolete and hard to 
> > find (and the Leica A3 which this board fits is also pretty hard to find 
> > now). 
> > 
> > I'm excited about the Disto DXT (the newer version), apparently there 
> > have been several issues, but I hope that they figure them out soon. 
> > 
> > So, Serur, at this point it sounds like your best bet would be to find 
> > someone who owns a Disto X and hopefully you can borrow it. 
> > 
> > - Fofo 
> > 
> > Mark Minton wrote, on 24/8/12 6:55 : 
> >> The Disto X is no longer being made. However a newer version is under 
> >> development. See 
> >>  >> ent.html>, 
> >> . 
> >> 
> >> Mark 
> >> 
> >> At 03:07 AM 8/24/2012, S S wrote: 
> >>> Does anyone know where you can get a DistoX or whatever the latest 
> >>> revision is. And any feedback on these. 
> >>> 
> >>> Serur 
> > 
> > - 
> > Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: 
> > texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com 
> > For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com 
> > 
> > 
> > - 
> > Visit our website: http://texascavers.com 
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com 
> > For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com 
> > 
> 
> - 
> Visit our website: http://texascavers.com 
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com 
> For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com 
> 

Re: [Texascavers] DistoX X2 Whatever.

[Joe & Evelynn]

Imagine not only distance, azimuth and inclination recorded in one shot to a 
memory card but also the ability to produce passage wall outlines and running 
profiles just by walking between the stations. Plus take cross sections at any 
point or measure room outlines.  All data is pre-formatted for direct import 
into Walls. 

Steve Gutting, Gregg Williams and I are building such a device and an early 
prototype has already been cave tested. The next prototype with a full set of 
sensors and a touchscreen GUI is nearly complete. 

And yes, it has a laser.

Joe
Sent from my iPhone

On Aug 24, 2012, at 9:54 PM, S S  wrote:

> Nope.  I was asking about the DistoX mod card for the Leica DX.It gives 
> you azimuth, elevation, and distance in 1 shot.  And its got a LASER beam!
> 
> No more bag of instruments and tape to drag.  Two people can do a survey in 
> no time.   
> 
> 
> Scott Serur
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- Sent from my HP TouchPad
> On Aug 24, 2012 7:17 PM, Fofo  wrote: 
> Hey Bennett. 
> 
> Sorry if there is some confusion, and maybe Serur was asking about the 
> Disto just as a distance measuring tool and in that case, yeah, the 
> D210XT is great. 
> 
> But there are some aftermarket modifications that can be made to the  
> (now obsolete) Disto A3 that make it measure azimuth and inclination as 
> well as distance, so it becomes an "all in one" survey tool (and if you 
> couple it via Bluetooth with a PDA running PocketTopo or Auriga, it's a 
> "paperless survey": http://paperless.bheeb.ch/ ). 
> 
> There is an effort to be able to modify the newer Distos, but it 
> apparently has been much more challenging, that's what I was talking about. 
> 
> Take care, 
> 
> - Fofo 
> 
> 
> 
> On 24/08/12 17:07, Bennett Lee wrote: 
> > I've been using the replacement model, the Disto D210XT, for several 
> > months. I've been happy with it. Not waterproof, but dust/water 
> > resistant enough to handle muddy caves, brief drops in water, and 
> > cleaning off in my sink at home. More features than we need cave 
> > surveying, but the ones we do need (units, single shot, max/min 
> > distance) are accessible and easy to use. Plus the 3-line display lets 
> > you quickly pop off 3 shots and average. Nice rubber grip. Runs on 2 
> > AAA batteries, which most of us cavers have on hand in the cave. 
> > 
> > Haven't heard about the issues Fofo mentioned--mine has been working 
> > great. My only complaint is that the large screen is easily scratched, 
> > but so far mine has been surviving cave abuse quite well. I'm so 
> > pleased that I've been considering buying a second so I have a backup 
> > that I can use while sketching. The D210XT runs $219 online. 
> > 
> > --Bennett 
> > 
> > 
> > -Original Message- 
> > From: Fofo [mailto:f...@gzluna.com] 
> > Sent: Friday, August 24, 2012 10:09 AM 
> > To: texascavers 
> > Subject: Re: [Texascavers] DistoX X2 Whatever. 
> > 
> > Yeah. Kevin Dixon made a batch of Disto X boards last year, and it was 
> > probably the last one since some of the parts are obsolete and hard to 
> > find (and the Leica A3 which this board fits is also pretty hard to find 
> > now). 
> > 
> > I'm excited about the Disto DXT (the newer version), apparently there 
> > have been several issues, but I hope that they figure them out soon. 
> > 
> > So, Serur, at this point it sounds like your best bet would be to find 
> > someone who owns a Disto X and hopefully you can borrow it. 
> > 
> > - Fofo 
> > 
> > Mark Minton wrote, on 24/8/12 6:55 : 
> >> The Disto X is no longer being made. However a newer version is under 
> >> development. See 
> >>  >> ent.html>, 
> >> . 
> >> 
> >> Mark 
> >> 
> >> At 03:07 AM 8/24/2012, S S wrote: 
> >>> Does anyone know where you can get a DistoX or whatever the latest 
> >>> revision is. And any feedback on these. 
> >>> 
> >>> Serur 
> > 
> > - 
> > Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: 
> > texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com 
> > For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com 
> > 
> > 
> > - 
> > Visit our website: http://texascavers.com 
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com 
> > For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com 
> > 
> 
> - 
> Visit our website: http://texascavers.com 
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com 
> For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com 
> 

[Texascavers] Fwd: Parking at Church for Nick's Celebration of Life

[Joe & Evelynn Mitchell]

> Update on parking for tomorrow.
> 
> Begin forwarded message:
> 
>> From: Ann Scott 
>> Date: July 6, 2012 1:16:29 PM CDT
>> To: Evelynn Mitchell 
>> Subject: Parking at Church for Nick's Celebration of Life
>> 
>> Parking is available at the church a couple blocks away. It's at the 
>> northwest corner of Melissa Drive and Blanco Road south of Haltown Drive. 
>> 
>> Fourth Church of Christ 
>> 903 Melissa Drive
>> San Antonio, TX 78213
>> 
>> Please call Linda at: 210-699-1388 or Allan at: 512 694 5433 and some one 
>> will come and pick you up. Unless you wish to walk...
> 

[Texascavers] Fwd: Parking at Church for Nick's Celebration of Life

[Joe & Evelynn Mitchell]

> Update on parking for tomorrow.
> 
> Begin forwarded message:
> 
>> From: Ann Scott 
>> Date: July 6, 2012 1:16:29 PM CDT
>> To: Evelynn Mitchell 
>> Subject: Parking at Church for Nick's Celebration of Life
>> 
>> Parking is available at the church a couple blocks away. It's at the 
>> northwest corner of Melissa Drive and Blanco Road south of Haltown Drive. 
>> 
>> Fourth Church of Christ 
>> 903 Melissa Drive
>> San Antonio, TX 78213
>> 
>> Please call Linda at: 210-699-1388 or Allan at: 512 694 5433 and some one 
>> will come and pick you up. Unless you wish to walk...
> 

[Texascavers] Fwd: Parking at Church for Nick's Celebration of Life

[Joe & Evelynn Mitchell]

> Update on parking for tomorrow.
> 
> Begin forwarded message:
> 
>> From: Ann Scott 
>> Date: July 6, 2012 1:16:29 PM CDT
>> To: Evelynn Mitchell 
>> Subject: Parking at Church for Nick's Celebration of Life
>> 
>> Parking is available at the church a couple blocks away. It's at the 
>> northwest corner of Melissa Drive and Blanco Road south of Haltown Drive. 
>> 
>> Fourth Church of Christ 
>> 903 Melissa Drive
>> San Antonio, TX 78213
>> 
>> Please call Linda at: 210-699-1388 or Allan at: 512 694 5433 and some one 
>> will come and pick you up. Unless you wish to walk...
> 

Re: [Texascavers] Close all caves?

[Joe & Evelynn]

USFWS issued the following response to the CBD petition last summer basically 
calling it ridiculous:

http://nrmg.cavesofmontana.org/content/bats-wns/2011_07_USFWS-response-to-CBD.pdf

I think this is a dead issue. 

Joe
Sent from my iPhone

On Apr 13, 2012, at 2:42 PM, Linda Palit  wrote:

> Forwarded from SWR
> 
> As you may know, the CBD is petitioning the White House to close all
> public caves and fine private landowners who keep their caves open.
> This is a serious threat to the caves, which are often vandalized when
> responsible visitation is removed, and does nothing to protect the
> bats since WNS is spread bat-to-bat. Human contributions to spread can
> be effectively controlled with decon, assuming a human vector ever
> existed. Closing publicly owned caves to the public is a threat to
> conservation, a limitation of freedom, and is based on bad science,
> and I am tired of not standing up to say that. If you support this
> cause, please sign this counter petition to keep the caves open.
> 
> https://wwws.whitehouse.gov/petitions/!/petition/support-conservation-recreation-science-and-personal-freedom-mandating-public-access-caves-public/YX8Bjp3F

Re: [Texascavers] Close all caves?

[Joe & Evelynn]

USFWS issued the following response to the CBD petition last summer basically 
calling it ridiculous:

http://nrmg.cavesofmontana.org/content/bats-wns/2011_07_USFWS-response-to-CBD.pdf

I think this is a dead issue. 

Joe
Sent from my iPhone

On Apr 13, 2012, at 2:42 PM, Linda Palit  wrote:

> Forwarded from SWR
> 
> As you may know, the CBD is petitioning the White House to close all
> public caves and fine private landowners who keep their caves open.
> This is a serious threat to the caves, which are often vandalized when
> responsible visitation is removed, and does nothing to protect the
> bats since WNS is spread bat-to-bat. Human contributions to spread can
> be effectively controlled with decon, assuming a human vector ever
> existed. Closing publicly owned caves to the public is a threat to
> conservation, a limitation of freedom, and is based on bad science,
> and I am tired of not standing up to say that. If you support this
> cause, please sign this counter petition to keep the caves open.
> 
> https://wwws.whitehouse.gov/petitions/!/petition/support-conservation-recreation-science-and-personal-freedom-mandating-public-access-caves-public/YX8Bjp3F

Re: [Texascavers] Close all caves?

[Joe & Evelynn]

USFWS issued the following response to the CBD petition last summer basically 
calling it ridiculous:

http://nrmg.cavesofmontana.org/content/bats-wns/2011_07_USFWS-response-to-CBD.pdf

I think this is a dead issue. 

Joe
Sent from my iPhone

On Apr 13, 2012, at 2:42 PM, Linda Palit  wrote:

> Forwarded from SWR
> 
> As you may know, the CBD is petitioning the White House to close all
> public caves and fine private landowners who keep their caves open.
> This is a serious threat to the caves, which are often vandalized when
> responsible visitation is removed, and does nothing to protect the
> bats since WNS is spread bat-to-bat. Human contributions to spread can
> be effectively controlled with decon, assuming a human vector ever
> existed. Closing publicly owned caves to the public is a threat to
> conservation, a limitation of freedom, and is based on bad science,
> and I am tired of not standing up to say that. If you support this
> cause, please sign this counter petition to keep the caves open.
> 
> https://wwws.whitehouse.gov/petitions/!/petition/support-conservation-recreation-science-and-personal-freedom-mandating-public-access-caves-public/YX8Bjp3F

[Texascavers] WOAI Robber Baron Cave story

[joe-evelynn]

The story ended up airing a day late, but they now have the video on their 
website here:

http://www.woai.com/content/news/beamer/story/Scientists-study-S-A-cave-for-space-research-Key/rwsFEKQyhUGmCTRVDgQTYw.cspx

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[Texascavers] WOAI Robber Baron Cave story

[joe-evelynn]

The story ended up airing a day late, but they now have the video on their 
website here:

http://www.woai.com/content/news/beamer/story/Scientists-study-S-A-cave-for-space-research-Key/rwsFEKQyhUGmCTRVDgQTYw.cspx

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[Texascavers] WOAI Robber Baron Cave story

[joe-evelynn]

The story ended up airing a day late, but they now have the video on their 
website here:

http://www.woai.com/content/news/beamer/story/Scientists-study-S-A-cave-for-space-research-Key/rwsFEKQyhUGmCTRVDgQTYw.cspx

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[Texascavers] Last minute Deep survey trip openings

[Joe & Evelynn Mitchell]

Looking for a caving opportunity this weekend? There are 2 last minute openings 
for the Deep Cave survey trip! Previous survey experience is desired. Contact 
me as soon as possible if you are interested.

Joe Mitchell
joemitch...@satx.rr.com
210-859-2105
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[Texascavers] Last minute Deep survey trip openings

[Joe & Evelynn Mitchell]

Looking for a caving opportunity this weekend? There are 2 last minute openings 
for the Deep Cave survey trip! Previous survey experience is desired. Contact 
me as soon as possible if you are interested.

Joe Mitchell
joemitch...@satx.rr.com
210-859-2105
-
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For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com

[Texascavers] Last minute Deep survey trip openings

[Joe & Evelynn Mitchell]

Looking for a caving opportunity this weekend? There are 2 last minute openings 
for the Deep Cave survey trip! Previous survey experience is desired. Contact 
me as soon as possible if you are interested.

Joe Mitchell
joemitch...@satx.rr.com
210-859-2105
-
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[Texascavers] Robber Baron Cave on WOAI tonight

[Joe & Evelynn Mitchell]

For anyone in the San Antonio area, tonight on the Ch 4 WOAI 10:00pm news is a 
story about the Cave Mass Spectroscopy project that some colleagues and I at 
work did last fall. Most of the filming for the story was done at Robber Baron, 
which we used as one of our study caves.

Thanks,
Joe
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[Texascavers] Robber Baron Cave on WOAI tonight

[Joe & Evelynn Mitchell]

For anyone in the San Antonio area, tonight on the Ch 4 WOAI 10:00pm news is a 
story about the Cave Mass Spectroscopy project that some colleagues and I at 
work did last fall. Most of the filming for the story was done at Robber Baron, 
which we used as one of our study caves.

Thanks,
Joe
-
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For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com

[Texascavers] Robber Baron Cave on WOAI tonight

[Joe & Evelynn Mitchell]

For anyone in the San Antonio area, tonight on the Ch 4 WOAI 10:00pm news is a 
story about the Cave Mass Spectroscopy project that some colleagues and I at 
work did last fall. Most of the filming for the story was done at Robber Baron, 
which we used as one of our study caves.

Thanks,
Joe
-
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Re: [Texascavers] Re: Honey Creek sand observation

[Joe & Evelynn]

I have a fresh Austin chalk cave rock ready to go in a vacuum chamber connected 
to a mass spec to measure the outgassing, which may give us some data soon. 

Joe
Sent from my iPhone

On Feb 14, 2012, at 10:25 AM, "George Veni"  wrote:

> "As for the origin of the CO2, I think that is still an open question. I'm
> not so sure about soils since there isn't much in central Texas. In small
> caves it could be organics. But in larger caves, I tend to favor out gassing
> from the limestone as it is dissolved by water - especially in caves that
> are connected to an underlying aquifer such as the Edwards where there is
> lots of water in continual contact with rock."
> 
> The soils are where the CO2 is stored; the actual source is plant
> respiration. It is not the only source of CO2 in cave air. The measured
> changes in soil that occur when plants become especially active, which have
> been correlated to changes in caves, show plant respiration is an important
> factor. How important remains to be better quantified because CO2 in Texas
> cave air increases not just with plant respiration but as we get into the
> season where airflow due to barometric changes decreases. Determining how
> much CO2 is outgassed from the limestone or deeper sources is something I've
> long wanted to do. I'm glad you're working on it Joe.
> 
> George 
> 
> 
> 
> -
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Re: [Texascavers] Re: Honey Creek sand observation

[Joe & Evelynn]

I have a fresh Austin chalk cave rock ready to go in a vacuum chamber connected 
to a mass spec to measure the outgassing, which may give us some data soon. 

Joe
Sent from my iPhone

On Feb 14, 2012, at 10:25 AM, "George Veni"  wrote:

> "As for the origin of the CO2, I think that is still an open question. I'm
> not so sure about soils since there isn't much in central Texas. In small
> caves it could be organics. But in larger caves, I tend to favor out gassing
> from the limestone as it is dissolved by water - especially in caves that
> are connected to an underlying aquifer such as the Edwards where there is
> lots of water in continual contact with rock."
> 
> The soils are where the CO2 is stored; the actual source is plant
> respiration. It is not the only source of CO2 in cave air. The measured
> changes in soil that occur when plants become especially active, which have
> been correlated to changes in caves, show plant respiration is an important
> factor. How important remains to be better quantified because CO2 in Texas
> cave air increases not just with plant respiration but as we get into the
> season where airflow due to barometric changes decreases. Determining how
> much CO2 is outgassed from the limestone or deeper sources is something I've
> long wanted to do. I'm glad you're working on it Joe.
> 
> George 
> 
> 
> 
> -
> Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com
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> 

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Re: [Texascavers] Re: Honey Creek sand observation

[Joe & Evelynn]

I have a fresh Austin chalk cave rock ready to go in a vacuum chamber connected 
to a mass spec to measure the outgassing, which may give us some data soon. 

Joe
Sent from my iPhone

On Feb 14, 2012, at 10:25 AM, "George Veni"  wrote:

> "As for the origin of the CO2, I think that is still an open question. I'm
> not so sure about soils since there isn't much in central Texas. In small
> caves it could be organics. But in larger caves, I tend to favor out gassing
> from the limestone as it is dissolved by water - especially in caves that
> are connected to an underlying aquifer such as the Edwards where there is
> lots of water in continual contact with rock."
> 
> The soils are where the CO2 is stored; the actual source is plant
> respiration. It is not the only source of CO2 in cave air. The measured
> changes in soil that occur when plants become especially active, which have
> been correlated to changes in caves, show plant respiration is an important
> factor. How important remains to be better quantified because CO2 in Texas
> cave air increases not just with plant respiration but as we get into the
> season where airflow due to barometric changes decreases. Determining how
> much CO2 is outgassed from the limestone or deeper sources is something I've
> long wanted to do. I'm glad you're working on it Joe.
> 
> George 
> 
> 
> 
> -
> Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
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> 

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Re: [Texascavers] Re: Honey Creek sand observation

[Joe & Evelynn]

Almost right. The CO2 levels and airflow velocities are essentially 
barometrically driven (not chimney effect which requires substantial elevation 
differences). In the summer barometric pressure changes are usually small so 
little air exchange occurs (and CO2 levels can build). In the winter, frequent 
high pressure systems (cold fronts) cause rapid increases in pressure driving 
lots of outside air in, dropping CO2 levels by large amounts. The bigger the 
cave volume the better for this to happen. A low pressure system can do the 
opposite, drawing out CO2 laden air from the depths of the system. 

The idea of supersaturated water forming the raft sounds very plausible and 
fits with the observations. 

Note that CO2 levels can vary by a factor of 10 or more in only a few hours 
when pressures are changing, so single observations can be deceiving as to what 
is going on.

As for the origin of the CO2, I think that is still an open question. I'm not 
so sure about soils since there isn't much in central Texas. In small caves it 
could be organics. But in larger caves, I tend to favor out gassing from the 
limestone as it is dissolved by water - especially in caves that are connected 
to an underlying aquifer such as the Edwards where there is lots of water in 
continual contact with rock. 

Joe
Sent from my iPhone

Joe
Sent from my iPhone

On Feb 14, 2012, at 8:51 AM, Benjamin Schwartz  wrote:

> While temperature, moisture content, and seasonality probably do have some 
> effects on raft deposition in the stream passage, and certainly effect CO2 
> generation in the soil horizon, my observations in CWAN are that these 
> effects on the surface are actually driving airflow changes in the cave, 
> which is the main engine driving the raft precipitation.
> 
> During the warm months in CWAN, no rafts form, and previously formed and/or 
> sunken rafts (after going over a rimstone dam, or under a drip site, for 
> example) will re-dissolve and disappear. This is because airflow slows down 
> during the hot months and is coming in from many of the (relatively) higher, 
> small, and peripheral fissure and fracture 'entrances' to the system, as well 
> as through the shallow soils, all of which will have a lot higher than 
> atmospheric CO2. This causes generally higher concentrations of CO2 in the 
> cave atmosphere, and relatively equilibrium conditions. I'm not sure what the 
> actual concentrations are in CWAN, but the air is definitely a lot less 
> 'fresh' in the summer. Evelynn Mitchell has some CO2 data for the tourist 
> part of the cave, so perhaps she can give us some relative idea of what 
> summer vs. winter is.
> 
> During the winter, this chimney-effect airflow reverses and strong airflow is 
> pulling cool, low-CO2 atmospheric air in from the main entrance and 
> transporting it across the (now super-saturated with respect to the cave air) 
> water in the stream. As the air moves upstream, CO2 de-gasses and calcite 
> rafts will precipitate in just a few hours. We've sunk them going upstream 
> and found them reformed on the way back downstream. At the bottom of rimstone 
> dams and at our gaging weir, we sometimes see large spectacular drifts of 
> snow white sunken rafts - but these all go away in the summer or after a 
> large storm event. I can send a picture of our weir with beautiful raft 
> drifts below it, if anyone would like to see it.
> 
> At any time of year, the far upstream reaches of the cave, where there is 
> little airflow, rarely have any rafts at all. The rafts (and rimstone dams) 
> pretty much stop when you pass the points where the main airflow leaves. And 
> those shall remain unattractive, gnarly, low-air secrets until we map the 
> passages. ;-)
> 
> So, while I can't say this is what is happening in Honey Creek, I am very 
> confident this is what is driving calcite raft precipitation and dissolution 
> in CWAN.
> 
> Best,
> 
> Benjamin Schwartz
> 
> -
> Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
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Re: [Texascavers] Re: Honey Creek sand observation

[Joe & Evelynn]

Almost right. The CO2 levels and airflow velocities are essentially 
barometrically driven (not chimney effect which requires substantial elevation 
differences). In the summer barometric pressure changes are usually small so 
little air exchange occurs (and CO2 levels can build). In the winter, frequent 
high pressure systems (cold fronts) cause rapid increases in pressure driving 
lots of outside air in, dropping CO2 levels by large amounts. The bigger the 
cave volume the better for this to happen. A low pressure system can do the 
opposite, drawing out CO2 laden air from the depths of the system. 

The idea of supersaturated water forming the raft sounds very plausible and 
fits with the observations. 

Note that CO2 levels can vary by a factor of 10 or more in only a few hours 
when pressures are changing, so single observations can be deceiving as to what 
is going on.

As for the origin of the CO2, I think that is still an open question. I'm not 
so sure about soils since there isn't much in central Texas. In small caves it 
could be organics. But in larger caves, I tend to favor out gassing from the 
limestone as it is dissolved by water - especially in caves that are connected 
to an underlying aquifer such as the Edwards where there is lots of water in 
continual contact with rock. 

Joe
Sent from my iPhone

Joe
Sent from my iPhone

On Feb 14, 2012, at 8:51 AM, Benjamin Schwartz  wrote:

> While temperature, moisture content, and seasonality probably do have some 
> effects on raft deposition in the stream passage, and certainly effect CO2 
> generation in the soil horizon, my observations in CWAN are that these 
> effects on the surface are actually driving airflow changes in the cave, 
> which is the main engine driving the raft precipitation.
> 
> During the warm months in CWAN, no rafts form, and previously formed and/or 
> sunken rafts (after going over a rimstone dam, or under a drip site, for 
> example) will re-dissolve and disappear. This is because airflow slows down 
> during the hot months and is coming in from many of the (relatively) higher, 
> small, and peripheral fissure and fracture 'entrances' to the system, as well 
> as through the shallow soils, all of which will have a lot higher than 
> atmospheric CO2. This causes generally higher concentrations of CO2 in the 
> cave atmosphere, and relatively equilibrium conditions. I'm not sure what the 
> actual concentrations are in CWAN, but the air is definitely a lot less 
> 'fresh' in the summer. Evelynn Mitchell has some CO2 data for the tourist 
> part of the cave, so perhaps she can give us some relative idea of what 
> summer vs. winter is.
> 
> During the winter, this chimney-effect airflow reverses and strong airflow is 
> pulling cool, low-CO2 atmospheric air in from the main entrance and 
> transporting it across the (now super-saturated with respect to the cave air) 
> water in the stream. As the air moves upstream, CO2 de-gasses and calcite 
> rafts will precipitate in just a few hours. We've sunk them going upstream 
> and found them reformed on the way back downstream. At the bottom of rimstone 
> dams and at our gaging weir, we sometimes see large spectacular drifts of 
> snow white sunken rafts - but these all go away in the summer or after a 
> large storm event. I can send a picture of our weir with beautiful raft 
> drifts below it, if anyone would like to see it.
> 
> At any time of year, the far upstream reaches of the cave, where there is 
> little airflow, rarely have any rafts at all. The rafts (and rimstone dams) 
> pretty much stop when you pass the points where the main airflow leaves. And 
> those shall remain unattractive, gnarly, low-air secrets until we map the 
> passages. ;-)
> 
> So, while I can't say this is what is happening in Honey Creek, I am very 
> confident this is what is driving calcite raft precipitation and dissolution 
> in CWAN.
> 
> Best,
> 
> Benjamin Schwartz
> 
> -
> Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com
> For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
> 

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Re: [Texascavers] Re: Honey Creek sand observation

[Joe & Evelynn]

Almost right. The CO2 levels and airflow velocities are essentially 
barometrically driven (not chimney effect which requires substantial elevation 
differences). In the summer barometric pressure changes are usually small so 
little air exchange occurs (and CO2 levels can build). In the winter, frequent 
high pressure systems (cold fronts) cause rapid increases in pressure driving 
lots of outside air in, dropping CO2 levels by large amounts. The bigger the 
cave volume the better for this to happen. A low pressure system can do the 
opposite, drawing out CO2 laden air from the depths of the system. 

The idea of supersaturated water forming the raft sounds very plausible and 
fits with the observations. 

Note that CO2 levels can vary by a factor of 10 or more in only a few hours 
when pressures are changing, so single observations can be deceiving as to what 
is going on.

As for the origin of the CO2, I think that is still an open question. I'm not 
so sure about soils since there isn't much in central Texas. In small caves it 
could be organics. But in larger caves, I tend to favor out gassing from the 
limestone as it is dissolved by water - especially in caves that are connected 
to an underlying aquifer such as the Edwards where there is lots of water in 
continual contact with rock. 

Joe
Sent from my iPhone

Joe
Sent from my iPhone

On Feb 14, 2012, at 8:51 AM, Benjamin Schwartz  wrote:

> While temperature, moisture content, and seasonality probably do have some 
> effects on raft deposition in the stream passage, and certainly effect CO2 
> generation in the soil horizon, my observations in CWAN are that these 
> effects on the surface are actually driving airflow changes in the cave, 
> which is the main engine driving the raft precipitation.
> 
> During the warm months in CWAN, no rafts form, and previously formed and/or 
> sunken rafts (after going over a rimstone dam, or under a drip site, for 
> example) will re-dissolve and disappear. This is because airflow slows down 
> during the hot months and is coming in from many of the (relatively) higher, 
> small, and peripheral fissure and fracture 'entrances' to the system, as well 
> as through the shallow soils, all of which will have a lot higher than 
> atmospheric CO2. This causes generally higher concentrations of CO2 in the 
> cave atmosphere, and relatively equilibrium conditions. I'm not sure what the 
> actual concentrations are in CWAN, but the air is definitely a lot less 
> 'fresh' in the summer. Evelynn Mitchell has some CO2 data for the tourist 
> part of the cave, so perhaps she can give us some relative idea of what 
> summer vs. winter is.
> 
> During the winter, this chimney-effect airflow reverses and strong airflow is 
> pulling cool, low-CO2 atmospheric air in from the main entrance and 
> transporting it across the (now super-saturated with respect to the cave air) 
> water in the stream. As the air moves upstream, CO2 de-gasses and calcite 
> rafts will precipitate in just a few hours. We've sunk them going upstream 
> and found them reformed on the way back downstream. At the bottom of rimstone 
> dams and at our gaging weir, we sometimes see large spectacular drifts of 
> snow white sunken rafts - but these all go away in the summer or after a 
> large storm event. I can send a picture of our weir with beautiful raft 
> drifts below it, if anyone would like to see it.
> 
> At any time of year, the far upstream reaches of the cave, where there is 
> little airflow, rarely have any rafts at all. The rafts (and rimstone dams) 
> pretty much stop when you pass the points where the main airflow leaves. And 
> those shall remain unattractive, gnarly, low-air secrets until we map the 
> passages. ;-)
> 
> So, while I can't say this is what is happening in Honey Creek, I am very 
> confident this is what is driving calcite raft precipitation and dissolution 
> in CWAN.
> 
> Best,
> 
> Benjamin Schwartz
> 
> -
> Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com
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[Texascavers] Deep Cave Survey Report - Jan 6-7, 2012

[Joe & Evelynn Mitchell]

The most recent Deep Cave Survey Trip was held on Jan 6-7, 2012. This was a 
two-day trip to clean up some previous survey and continue the work from the 
last two survey trips held in July and October of 2011.

On Friday, only 4 people were able to attend, myself, Don Arburn, Jill Orr, and 
Mike Harris. Except for Don who had been out there most of the week for a trip 
for cavers visiting from Tennessee, the rest of us arrived on Friday morning. 
We got out to the cave before noon and began by working on the B-survey, which 
is the high, and mid-level areas back to the right from the Entrance Room. 
There were several sketch problems, which were resolved, and a few possible 
leads were checked but none had any promise. Eventually we worked our way down 
to the D-survey, which began small so only Jill, and I proceeded. This survey 
from 2005 had extremely poor closure and has not been included in the length of 
the cave previously. We were able to relocate 6 stations and reshoot them. 
Though the shots each had problems, the biggest issue was found to be an 
incorrect tie in point to the E-survey. Most interestingly, at the end of the 
D-survey, many leads were seen heading off it multiple directions, so would be 
an excellent location to send teams in the future. We were then planning to go 
and tie in a hanging survey from a previous trip, but the wrong notes were 
brought so, being tired from various illnesses and wanting to save energy for 
Saturday, we exited the cave.

As we relaxed that evening, the remainder of the survey crew gradually filtered 
in. Joe and Sara Ranzau along with Evelynn and Kayla Mitchell (who were staying 
at the Ranzau’s) also came over to visit for the evening.

Saturday was the main survey day with 19 people on the property. Sue Schindel 
had come to relax and hang out at the cabin so did not go into the cave. After 
breakfast and getting organized, the teams entered the cave by 10:30 am with 
two teams visiting the Helictite Room area and the others going out to the west 
end of the cave.

Bennett Lee led a team that included Steve Gutting, and Geary Schindel. They 
carried out a survey of the perimeter of the Helictite Room and to more 
carefully check leads off of the room. Although this survey did not add much 
length to the cave, it did provide a much better sketch of the room for map 
drafting purposes.  A previously unknown passage was found heading south from 
the Helictite Room and is a good lead for future survey. This team also tied 
into a hanging survey from the previous trip to add that length to the cave. 
The team surveyed 11 shots for 86.13 m.

The next team consisted of Don Arburn and Gregg Williams. Mike Harris intended 
to join this team but was unable to do so. This team continued the survey of 
areas below the Helictite Room. They found it difficult to sketch. There were 
several going leads that were found and a passage that led deep into a room 
with a soft dirt floor, which is unusual for that part of the cave. The area 
looks like it took a great deal of water flow showing water lines about 0.75 m 
up the wall. The team surveyed 13 shots for 65.13 m. 

My team consisted of Aspen Schindel, Jill Orr, and Tom Florer. Our goal was to 
head out to Gotham City in the western part of the cave and continue working 
the leads off this room. We traveled with Marvin and Ellie’s teams to the 
Crystal Waterfall. Along the way we stopped at the obelisk rock to install a 
permanent handline in preparation for establishing a new visitor route into 
this section of the cave. After separating from the other teams, we reached 
Gotham City. The right wall leads were not promising but Aspen found that the 
straight ahead lead went, so we started surveying there. We went for 4 stations 
into a room where the route ended with poor leads. Back in Gotham City, Jill 
found a good lead on the west wall at the climb up to the LA survey. We 
surveyed this lead for 5 stations, which went into a series of rooms that 
corkscrewed above itself. Several of these rooms were well decorated. Aspen 
then checked a lead opposite the LB survey down below Gotham City, which lead 
to a coral crawl but the team decided to save it for another time. (Marvin's 
team ended up surveying into it later from the opposite direction.) We then 
proceeded up to the Junction Room, and after meeting Ellie's team in 
Metropolis, we surveyed north from the Junction Room down a coral lined slope. 
This led to a winding passage that eventually came up into the northern side of 
Metropolis from below. Bat droppings and a flying bat were encountered in this 
loop, which is rather far from the entrance by known routes, so was surprising 
to see. Several holes lead down into a short series of rooms, which remain to 
be surveyed. Just before the climb back up into Metropolis, Jill discovered a 
steep climb down that goes into a complex maze with many leads and larger rooms 
and no end in sight. The team surveyed 19

[Texascavers] Deep Cave Survey Report - Jan 6-7, 2012

[Joe & Evelynn Mitchell]

The most recent Deep Cave Survey Trip was held on Jan 6-7, 2012. This was a 
two-day trip to clean up some previous survey and continue the work from the 
last two survey trips held in July and October of 2011.

On Friday, only 4 people were able to attend, myself, Don Arburn, Jill Orr, and 
Mike Harris. Except for Don who had been out there most of the week for a trip 
for cavers visiting from Tennessee, the rest of us arrived on Friday morning. 
We got out to the cave before noon and began by working on the B-survey, which 
is the high, and mid-level areas back to the right from the Entrance Room. 
There were several sketch problems, which were resolved, and a few possible 
leads were checked but none had any promise. Eventually we worked our way down 
to the D-survey, which began small so only Jill, and I proceeded. This survey 
from 2005 had extremely poor closure and has not been included in the length of 
the cave previously. We were able to relocate 6 stations and reshoot them. 
Though the shots each had problems, the biggest issue was found to be an 
incorrect tie in point to the E-survey. Most interestingly, at the end of the 
D-survey, many leads were seen heading off it multiple directions, so would be 
an excellent location to send teams in the future. We were then planning to go 
and tie in a hanging survey from a previous trip, but the wrong notes were 
brought so, being tired from various illnesses and wanting to save energy for 
Saturday, we exited the cave.

As we relaxed that evening, the remainder of the survey crew gradually filtered 
in. Joe and Sara Ranzau along with Evelynn and Kayla Mitchell (who were staying 
at the Ranzau’s) also came over to visit for the evening.

Saturday was the main survey day with 19 people on the property. Sue Schindel 
had come to relax and hang out at the cabin so did not go into the cave. After 
breakfast and getting organized, the teams entered the cave by 10:30 am with 
two teams visiting the Helictite Room area and the others going out to the west 
end of the cave.

Bennett Lee led a team that included Steve Gutting, and Geary Schindel. They 
carried out a survey of the perimeter of the Helictite Room and to more 
carefully check leads off of the room. Although this survey did not add much 
length to the cave, it did provide a much better sketch of the room for map 
drafting purposes.  A previously unknown passage was found heading south from 
the Helictite Room and is a good lead for future survey. This team also tied 
into a hanging survey from the previous trip to add that length to the cave. 
The team surveyed 11 shots for 86.13 m.

The next team consisted of Don Arburn and Gregg Williams. Mike Harris intended 
to join this team but was unable to do so. This team continued the survey of 
areas below the Helictite Room. They found it difficult to sketch. There were 
several going leads that were found and a passage that led deep into a room 
with a soft dirt floor, which is unusual for that part of the cave. The area 
looks like it took a great deal of water flow showing water lines about 0.75 m 
up the wall. The team surveyed 13 shots for 65.13 m. 

My team consisted of Aspen Schindel, Jill Orr, and Tom Florer. Our goal was to 
head out to Gotham City in the western part of the cave and continue working 
the leads off this room. We traveled with Marvin and Ellie’s teams to the 
Crystal Waterfall. Along the way we stopped at the obelisk rock to install a 
permanent handline in preparation for establishing a new visitor route into 
this section of the cave. After separating from the other teams, we reached 
Gotham City. The right wall leads were not promising but Aspen found that the 
straight ahead lead went, so we started surveying there. We went for 4 stations 
into a room where the route ended with poor leads. Back in Gotham City, Jill 
found a good lead on the west wall at the climb up to the LA survey. We 
surveyed this lead for 5 stations, which went into a series of rooms that 
corkscrewed above itself. Several of these rooms were well decorated. Aspen 
then checked a lead opposite the LB survey down below Gotham City, which lead 
to a coral crawl but the team decided to save it for another time. (Marvin's 
team ended up surveying into it later from the opposite direction.) We then 
proceeded up to the Junction Room, and after meeting Ellie's team in 
Metropolis, we surveyed north from the Junction Room down a coral lined slope. 
This led to a winding passage that eventually came up into the northern side of 
Metropolis from below. Bat droppings and a flying bat were encountered in this 
loop, which is rather far from the entrance by known routes, so was surprising 
to see. Several holes lead down into a short series of rooms, which remain to 
be surveyed. Just before the climb back up into Metropolis, Jill discovered a 
steep climb down that goes into a complex maze with many leads and larger rooms 
and no end in sight. The team surveyed 19

[Texascavers] Deep Cave Survey Report - Jan 6-7, 2012

[Joe & Evelynn Mitchell]

The most recent Deep Cave Survey Trip was held on Jan 6-7, 2012. This was a 
two-day trip to clean up some previous survey and continue the work from the 
last two survey trips held in July and October of 2011.

On Friday, only 4 people were able to attend, myself, Don Arburn, Jill Orr, and 
Mike Harris. Except for Don who had been out there most of the week for a trip 
for cavers visiting from Tennessee, the rest of us arrived on Friday morning. 
We got out to the cave before noon and began by working on the B-survey, which 
is the high, and mid-level areas back to the right from the Entrance Room. 
There were several sketch problems, which were resolved, and a few possible 
leads were checked but none had any promise. Eventually we worked our way down 
to the D-survey, which began small so only Jill, and I proceeded. This survey 
from 2005 had extremely poor closure and has not been included in the length of 
the cave previously. We were able to relocate 6 stations and reshoot them. 
Though the shots each had problems, the biggest issue was found to be an 
incorrect tie in point to the E-survey. Most interestingly, at the end of the 
D-survey, many leads were seen heading off it multiple directions, so would be 
an excellent location to send teams in the future. We were then planning to go 
and tie in a hanging survey from a previous trip, but the wrong notes were 
brought so, being tired from various illnesses and wanting to save energy for 
Saturday, we exited the cave.

As we relaxed that evening, the remainder of the survey crew gradually filtered 
in. Joe and Sara Ranzau along with Evelynn and Kayla Mitchell (who were staying 
at the Ranzau’s) also came over to visit for the evening.

Saturday was the main survey day with 19 people on the property. Sue Schindel 
had come to relax and hang out at the cabin so did not go into the cave. After 
breakfast and getting organized, the teams entered the cave by 10:30 am with 
two teams visiting the Helictite Room area and the others going out to the west 
end of the cave.

Bennett Lee led a team that included Steve Gutting, and Geary Schindel. They 
carried out a survey of the perimeter of the Helictite Room and to more 
carefully check leads off of the room. Although this survey did not add much 
length to the cave, it did provide a much better sketch of the room for map 
drafting purposes.  A previously unknown passage was found heading south from 
the Helictite Room and is a good lead for future survey. This team also tied 
into a hanging survey from the previous trip to add that length to the cave. 
The team surveyed 11 shots for 86.13 m.

The next team consisted of Don Arburn and Gregg Williams. Mike Harris intended 
to join this team but was unable to do so. This team continued the survey of 
areas below the Helictite Room. They found it difficult to sketch. There were 
several going leads that were found and a passage that led deep into a room 
with a soft dirt floor, which is unusual for that part of the cave. The area 
looks like it took a great deal of water flow showing water lines about 0.75 m 
up the wall. The team surveyed 13 shots for 65.13 m. 

My team consisted of Aspen Schindel, Jill Orr, and Tom Florer. Our goal was to 
head out to Gotham City in the western part of the cave and continue working 
the leads off this room. We traveled with Marvin and Ellie’s teams to the 
Crystal Waterfall. Along the way we stopped at the obelisk rock to install a 
permanent handline in preparation for establishing a new visitor route into 
this section of the cave. After separating from the other teams, we reached 
Gotham City. The right wall leads were not promising but Aspen found that the 
straight ahead lead went, so we started surveying there. We went for 4 stations 
into a room where the route ended with poor leads. Back in Gotham City, Jill 
found a good lead on the west wall at the climb up to the LA survey. We 
surveyed this lead for 5 stations, which went into a series of rooms that 
corkscrewed above itself. Several of these rooms were well decorated. Aspen 
then checked a lead opposite the LB survey down below Gotham City, which lead 
to a coral crawl but the team decided to save it for another time. (Marvin's 
team ended up surveying into it later from the opposite direction.) We then 
proceeded up to the Junction Room, and after meeting Ellie's team in 
Metropolis, we surveyed north from the Junction Room down a coral lined slope. 
This led to a winding passage that eventually came up into the northern side of 
Metropolis from below. Bat droppings and a flying bat were encountered in this 
loop, which is rather far from the entrance by known routes, so was surprising 
to see. Several holes lead down into a short series of rooms, which remain to 
be surveyed. Just before the climb back up into Metropolis, Jill discovered a 
steep climb down that goes into a complex maze with many leads and larger rooms 
and no end in sight. The team surveyed 19

Re: [Texascavers] March Work Trip to Deep & Punkin Caves Nature Preserve

[Joe & Evelynn]

NO. That is the survey project weekend!

Joe
Sent from my iPhone

On Jan 26, 2012, at 3:18 PM, Don Arburn  wrote:

> March 2-5 will be a work trip to D&PCNP. Welding on purlins to the back porch 
> rafters and possibly finishing the roof. May have folks route planning in the 
> caves. May have road clearing to Deep cave. Any help appreciated. Contact me 
> for questions & info.
> 
> Don Arburn, Preserve Manager
> Deep & Punkin Caves Nature Preserve
> Texas Cave Management Association
> "Caves for Cavers"
> donarb...@mac.com
> 
> 
> -
> Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
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Re: [Texascavers] March Work Trip to Deep & Punkin Caves Nature Preserve

[Joe & Evelynn]

NO. That is the survey project weekend!

Joe
Sent from my iPhone

On Jan 26, 2012, at 3:18 PM, Don Arburn  wrote:

> March 2-5 will be a work trip to D&PCNP. Welding on purlins to the back porch 
> rafters and possibly finishing the roof. May have folks route planning in the 
> caves. May have road clearing to Deep cave. Any help appreciated. Contact me 
> for questions & info.
> 
> Don Arburn, Preserve Manager
> Deep & Punkin Caves Nature Preserve
> Texas Cave Management Association
> "Caves for Cavers"
> donarb...@mac.com
> 
> 
> -
> Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com
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> 

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Re: [Texascavers] March Work Trip to Deep & Punkin Caves Nature Preserve

[Joe & Evelynn]

NO. That is the survey project weekend!

Joe
Sent from my iPhone

On Jan 26, 2012, at 3:18 PM, Don Arburn  wrote:

> March 2-5 will be a work trip to D&PCNP. Welding on purlins to the back porch 
> rafters and possibly finishing the roof. May have folks route planning in the 
> caves. May have road clearing to Deep cave. Any help appreciated. Contact me 
> for questions & info.
> 
> Don Arburn, Preserve Manager
> Deep & Punkin Caves Nature Preserve
> Texas Cave Management Association
> "Caves for Cavers"
> donarb...@mac.com
> 
> 
> -
> Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com
> For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
> 

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[Texascavers] Seeking old Robber Baron photos & notes

[Joe & Evelynn Mitchell]

I have been working to compile a more complete history of Robber Baron Cave and 
am looking for copies of any notes or photos anyone might have of the cave and 
the property from the 50's-80's. If you have anything you are willing to share, 
I would appreciate it! 

If you have no means to scan photos or slides, I would be happy to do so and 
cover any shipping costs.

Thanks,
Joe Mitchell
210-859-2105



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[Texascavers] Seeking old Robber Baron photos & notes

[Joe & Evelynn Mitchell]

I have been working to compile a more complete history of Robber Baron Cave and 
am looking for copies of any notes or photos anyone might have of the cave and 
the property from the 50's-80's. If you have anything you are willing to share, 
I would appreciate it! 

If you have no means to scan photos or slides, I would be happy to do so and 
cover any shipping costs.

Thanks,
Joe Mitchell
210-859-2105



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[Texascavers] Seeking old Robber Baron photos & notes

[Joe & Evelynn Mitchell]

I have been working to compile a more complete history of Robber Baron Cave and 
am looking for copies of any notes or photos anyone might have of the cave and 
the property from the 50's-80's. If you have anything you are willing to share, 
I would appreciate it! 

If you have no means to scan photos or slides, I would be happy to do so and 
cover any shipping costs.

Thanks,
Joe Mitchell
210-859-2105



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[Texascavers] Deep survey trip

[Joe-Evelynn]

I've had some last minute cancellations so if you are looking to do some caving 
this weekend, there are spaces available for the Deep Cave survey project. If 
you can go let me know so I can get you the info on the trip. 

Joe
Sent from my iPhone
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[Texascavers] Deep survey trip

[Joe-Evelynn]

I've had some last minute cancellations so if you are looking to do some caving 
this weekend, there are spaces available for the Deep Cave survey project. If 
you can go let me know so I can get you the info on the trip. 

Joe
Sent from my iPhone
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[Texascavers] Deep survey trip

[Joe-Evelynn]

I've had some last minute cancellations so if you are looking to do some caving 
this weekend, there are spaces available for the Deep Cave survey project. If 
you can go let me know so I can get you the info on the trip. 

Joe
Sent from my iPhone
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[Texascavers] Deep Survey Trip - Sat., Oct 1

[Joe & Evelynn Mitchell]

The next date for the Deep Cave survey project is Sat., Oct 1. The cave 
continues to expand and there seems to be no end of leads to explore and 
survey! There are several slots available for the trip, so contact me if you 
are interested in going. Cave surveying experience is highly desired.

Thanks,

Joe Mitchell
joemitch...@satx.rr.com
210-859-2105
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[Texascavers] Deep Survey Trip - Sat., Oct 1

[Joe & Evelynn Mitchell]

The next date for the Deep Cave survey project is Sat., Oct 1. The cave 
continues to expand and there seems to be no end of leads to explore and 
survey! There are several slots available for the trip, so contact me if you 
are interested in going. Cave surveying experience is highly desired.

Thanks,

Joe Mitchell
joemitch...@satx.rr.com
210-859-2105
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[Texascavers] Deep Survey Trip - Sat., Oct 1

[Joe & Evelynn Mitchell]

The next date for the Deep Cave survey project is Sat., Oct 1. The cave 
continues to expand and there seems to be no end of leads to explore and 
survey! There are several slots available for the trip, so contact me if you 
are interested in going. Cave surveying experience is highly desired.

Thanks,

Joe Mitchell
joemitch...@satx.rr.com
210-859-2105
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[Texascavers] Deep Cave Survey

[Joe & Evelynn Mitchell]

I have 2 open slots for next weekend's (July 9) resumption of the Deep Cave 
survey project. Contact me off list if you are interested in going. Must have 
cave survey experience and be prepared for about 8 hours of challenging 
surveying and lead pushing!

Joe Mitchell
joemitch...@satx.rr.com
210-859-2105


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[Texascavers] Deep Cave Survey

[Joe & Evelynn Mitchell]

I have 2 open slots for next weekend's (July 9) resumption of the Deep Cave 
survey project. Contact me off list if you are interested in going. Must have 
cave survey experience and be prepared for about 8 hours of challenging 
surveying and lead pushing!

Joe Mitchell
joemitch...@satx.rr.com
210-859-2105


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[Texascavers] Deep Cave Survey

[Joe & Evelynn Mitchell]

I have 2 open slots for next weekend's (July 9) resumption of the Deep Cave 
survey project. Contact me off list if you are interested in going. Must have 
cave survey experience and be prepared for about 8 hours of challenging 
surveying and lead pushing!

Joe Mitchell
joemitch...@satx.rr.com
210-859-2105


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[Texascavers] Robber Baron Cleanup & Scout Project - Sat., May 21

[Joe & Evelynn Mitchell]

There is a Robber Baron property cleanup and Eagle Scout Project scheduled for 
this coming Sat. May 21 and your help is needed! The Eagle Project will involve 
removal of sand and other material from inside the cave that was washed in 
during the restoration project. On the surface, we have a brush pile and dirt 
pile from previous cleanups to load onto a trailer for removal and if there is 
enough time and manpower, there is also a new collection of rocks and fill 
building up in the sinkhole to pull out. There may also be some trash pickup, 
grass cutting and tree trimming to do depending on how things look.

We will get an early start at about 8am and work until sometime in the 
afternoon and then volunteers are welcome to spend time in the cave. 

Lunch will be provided! (If possible, let me know if you are planning to 
attend.)

Digging tools are needed - shovels, picks, etc. We could also use some extra 
buckets since many of ours are no longer in good shape. Also an extra trailer 
may be needed for dirt removal - contact me directly if you can bring one.

Thanks! 
Joe Mitchell
210-859-2105
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[Texascavers] Robber Baron Cleanup & Scout Project - Sat., May 21

[Joe & Evelynn Mitchell]

There is a Robber Baron property cleanup and Eagle Scout Project scheduled for 
this coming Sat. May 21 and your help is needed! The Eagle Project will involve 
removal of sand and other material from inside the cave that was washed in 
during the restoration project. On the surface, we have a brush pile and dirt 
pile from previous cleanups to load onto a trailer for removal and if there is 
enough time and manpower, there is also a new collection of rocks and fill 
building up in the sinkhole to pull out. There may also be some trash pickup, 
grass cutting and tree trimming to do depending on how things look.

We will get an early start at about 8am and work until sometime in the 
afternoon and then volunteers are welcome to spend time in the cave. 

Lunch will be provided! (If possible, let me know if you are planning to 
attend.)

Digging tools are needed - shovels, picks, etc. We could also use some extra 
buckets since many of ours are no longer in good shape. Also an extra trailer 
may be needed for dirt removal - contact me directly if you can bring one.

Thanks! 
Joe Mitchell
210-859-2105
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[Texascavers] Robber Baron Cleanup & Scout Project - Sat., May 21

[Joe & Evelynn Mitchell]

There is a Robber Baron property cleanup and Eagle Scout Project scheduled for 
this coming Sat. May 21 and your help is needed! The Eagle Project will involve 
removal of sand and other material from inside the cave that was washed in 
during the restoration project. On the surface, we have a brush pile and dirt 
pile from previous cleanups to load onto a trailer for removal and if there is 
enough time and manpower, there is also a new collection of rocks and fill 
building up in the sinkhole to pull out. There may also be some trash pickup, 
grass cutting and tree trimming to do depending on how things look.

We will get an early start at about 8am and work until sometime in the 
afternoon and then volunteers are welcome to spend time in the cave. 

Lunch will be provided! (If possible, let me know if you are planning to 
attend.)

Digging tools are needed - shovels, picks, etc. We could also use some extra 
buckets since many of ours are no longer in good shape. Also an extra trailer 
may be needed for dirt removal - contact me directly if you can bring one.

Thanks! 
Joe Mitchell
210-859-2105
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[Texascavers] Bexar Grotto Christmas Party!

[Joe & Evelynn Mitchell]

The Bexar Grotto Christmas Party will be held this Saturday, December 18 at the 
new home of Cindy, Patrice and Sophia at 307 Squires Row. The party will start 
at 6:00pm. Bring a gift for the white elephant exchange, a dish for the pot 
luck dinner and your adult beverage of choice.

If you need directions or have questions, call 210-530-9500.

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[Texascavers] Robber Baron Cave on TV

[Joe & Evelynn Mitchell]

Video link:
http://www.woai.com/content/news/beamer/story/Beamer-takes-you-deep-under-San-Antonio-into/SKq37ZNwQ0eU9QwyvDCbGw.cspx


Beamer takes you deep under San Antonio into Robber Baron Cave

Reported by: Randy Beamer
Email: randybea...@woaitv.com

Published: 11/01 7:46 pm
ShareThis
Updated: 7:15 am


Deep under San Antonio lies a long-forgotten piece of history.
Robber Baron Cave was a tourist attraction until it was sealed off  
decades ago.
But with the help of a scientist doing new research, Randy Beamer  
takes you deep inside the historic cave.


Joe Mitchell and I are all suited up in caving gear, with boots, elbow  
and knee pads, gloves, and miner's helmets with lights on top.  On Joe  
it looks natural. Me -- not so much. Maybe it's because Joe is a  
scientist in his day job and his passion is "caving."


Caving is what the hardcore call the sport and science of exploring  
caves -- which some still call spelunking. But Joe is about to be more  
of a tour guide, giving me a history and science lesson of a cave he's  
been researching for some time.


In fact, Joe just re-drew the map of San Antonio's Robber Baron Cave,  
using old surveys, measurements he's taken himself, and new computer  
software. And he continues digging into the unusual history of it  
using newly available documents -- many of them old newspaper archives  
digitally scanned and made searchable by computer.


Over a picnic table in the landscaped lot above the entrance, Joe  
points out different features of the cave which lies 40-60 feet  
beneath our feet. Here at the edge of the sinkhole leading down to the  
cave opening, was a concession stand decades ago.


A black and white photo documents that you could buy hot dogs and  
sodas there, back in the days when you could also pay 50 cents for a  
"tour."


But most people in San Antonio have never heard of it because since  
the 1930's the different owners have done their best to block off the  
entrance with metal gates, trash, even a concrete bunker.  That bunker  
was finally blasted away a few years back and a non-profit group  
called the Texas Cave Management Association now operates it as a  
preserve.


And before you ask -- no -- it's still not open to the general public  
and not likely to be - ever.  That's largely because of the threat of  
vandalism and people getting lost inside the maze of natural tunnels.


So there are more gates to keep out the curious, which Joe Mitchell  
unlocks to let me squeeze in.  Just inside the entrance is an area  
about the size of a small office.


I'm optimistic, thinking this might not trigger any claustrophobia in  
me.


Joe assures me there are smaller challenges ahead. "We can show you a  
lot tighter areas in the cave,"Mitchell says. "There are passages just  
big enough for your body to go through and no bigger."


I had to ask.

A short time later I'm looking at a passage they describe as 18 inches  
high and three feet wide. To me that looks like a gross  
overestimation, but I'm committed to get the full caving experience.


I ask for any last bit of advice before hoisting myself into the  
shrinking void. "Thrash and flail," I thought I heard Joe say.
Excuse me? "Thrash and flail," he repeats, laughing. "It means get  
through however you can."


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[Texascavers] TCMA By-Laws Revision - Comments Solicited

[Joe & Evelynn Mitchell]

To all TCMA Members:

The TCMA Board has been working over the last several months to revise  
and improve our organization's by-laws. Many parts of it are vague or  
contradictory or not reflective of how the organization operates  
today. Our goal with this revision is to dramatically simplify the by- 
laws so that they can effectively guide the organization into the  
future and to incorporate some changes that we feel will improve the  
way TCMA is run and operated.


During the months of August and September, the By-Laws committee  
worked through a variety of possible drafts with committee members  
proposing a diversity of approaches. After much discussion and  
negotiation, a draft was prepared that was a nearly complete rewrite  
of the existing by-laws. With additional revisions, this draft was  
approved by the Board in mid-September. This draft was then brought to  
the membership for approval at the TCR Members Meeting. It became  
apparent during the meeting that a number of people had significant  
issues with the proposal or felt that they had not had sufficient time  
to review it. The membership voted to table the by-laws and return  
them to committee for further review.


In the process, I have realized that in our haste to produce a draft  
by TCR, we failed to include your opinion as a member of the  
organization. TMCA is dependent on our membership, so it is important  
that all members have a chance to provide input on this process. This  
is, after all, your organization and we want all Texas Cavers to be  
involved!


So, I would like to open a month-long period for comment from the  
membership on the new by-laws proposal. A copy for your review can be  
found at www.tcmacaves.org/bylaws/ along with the current by-laws for  
reference. A commentary on some of the more significant changes can be  
found in the most recent issue of the TCMA Passages on pg. 3 which can  
be viewed here: www.tcmacaves.org/PDF/passages/Pass_v11n2.pdf


Please direct comments to either myself at  
 or to the committee as a whole at > by November 30.


Due to the diversity of opinions and the requirements of the  
organization, it will almost certainly be impossible to include all  
suggestions. However, we will carefully consider every opinion in  
preparation of a revised draft.


Thank you and we hope to hear from you!

Joe Mitchell
TCMA By-Laws Committee Chair

[Texascavers] Robber Baron Cave on TV

[Joe & Evelynn Mitchell]

If you are in the San Antonio area, WOAI TV (Ch 4) will be airing a  
segment on Robber Baron during the Friday evening 10pm news. I imagine  
it will be available on their website afterwards.


They have a promo clip out already which you can see here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aT_W1Qv0WOE

Joe

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[Texascavers] Fall TCMA Passages online

[Joe & Evelynn Mitchell]

The Fall 2010 issue of the TCMA Passages is now online from the main  
page at www.tcmacaves.org.


Check out the articles on recent survey work at Amazing Maze, newly  
uncovered history in Robber Baron, commentaries on purchasing caves,  
TCMA fundraising, the proposed by-laws revisions, and more!


Also, thank you to Saj and Jill who have volunteered to take on the  
role of Passages co-editors starting in the spring as I step down from  
11 years as its editor.


Thanks,
Joe Mitchell

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[Texascavers] TCMA yard sale

[Joe-Evelynn]

From Jill Orr:

> Subject: TCMA yard sale
> 
>  
> 
> Texas Cave Management Association will be hosting our annual Yard Sale
> at the 2010 TCR and we are asking for your donations.
> All items - caver and noncaver related - are welcome
> provided they are in fairly decent shape and working condition.
> If you cannot attend the TCR but would like to donate items
> to the sale please contact the following person in your city/grotto:
> Austin – Saj  sajar...@gmail.com
> Dallas – Bill speleoste...@tx.rr.com
> Houston – Kevin ke...@kevinmcgowan.com
> San Antonio – Jill   jill...@swbell.net
>  
> If you have any questions please contact 
> TCMA Fundraising Chair, Jill Orr at
> jill...@swbell.net
>  
> Thank you for your support!
>  

Re: [Texascavers] Carbon Dioxide and Low Oxygen in Texas Caves.

[joe-evelynn]

I started an airflow study in Robber Baron a year ago which has been continued 
by Evelynn in it and other area caves. We monitored CO2 at several minute 
sampling intervals over several days. CO2 levels varied widely from a little 
over 1000 ppm to over 12000 ppm. The changes in CO2 concentration closely 
followed changes in barometric pressure and large CO2 changes could occur in as 
little as an hour. Thus a single point measurement, like some of the other ones 
mentioned, may not tell you much in a cave with airflow.

Another interesting factor is that after a strong pressure rise, like after 
cold front arrives in the winter months, there is a lag, often of a few days, 
before the CO2 starts to rise again, even after the pressure has fallen some. 
This suggests there is a reservoir or source of CO2 at some point beyond the 
known cave that requires some extended period of outflow to draw it out after a 
large amount of outside air has been pulled in. In the summer, the CO2 response 
is faster since there is a small daily pressure cycle that does not draw in as 
much outside air. Overall then, the air seems "worse" in the summer since there 
are fewer large pressure increase event to push "good" outside air into the 
cave.

In many high CO2 caves that I have been in around San Antonio there are few 
significant organics to decompose, so I don't think that is the source. I tend 
to go with Jerry's #2 or #3 hypothesis. Around San Antonio, I suspect the water 
in the aquifer dissolving carbonates may be the source of the outgassing and 
that caves with some connection to it are the ones with the periodically high 
CO2 - ie. as the cave blows out it pulls up CO2 from much deeper areas up to 
near the surface and then pushes it back down when it blow in.

There are several groups currently doing research in this area and one problem 
is the hostile cave environment reeking havoc in instruments left in over the 
long term (condensation, corrosion, etc.)

Joe

 jerryat...@aol.com wrote: 
>  
> Elevated CO2 is a common occurrence in Texas caves with the highest  levels 
> typically being found in caves developed in the Ellenburger or Austin  
> Chalk formations. Both of these formations have low permeabilities, and it is 
>  
> conjectured that this impedes the ability of CO2, once it accumulates,  to 
> absorb back into the rock/water portion of the formation.  That said,  even 
> caves developed in formations with higher permeability and/or  restricted air 
> flow may have elevated levels of CO2; usually not in amounts that  cause 
> physical distress.
>  
> As to the cause of high CO2 levels, there are several possibilities:
> 1.) microbial decomposition of organic matter
> 2.) excessive degassing of CO2 from formation water at the water/air  
> interface
> 3.) degassing and/or breakdown of carbonates due to hypogene fluids moving  
> up from depth (these fluids may be related to hydrocarbons or igneous  
> activity)
> 4.) Excessive human respiration in restricted passages
>  
>  
> Bill Elliott and Butch Fralia conducted oxygen (O2) and carbon dioxide  
> (CO2) studies in several Texas caves and found that the amount O2 and  CO2 in 
> the cave air usually added up to approximately 21% of the total  composition 
> of the air no matter what the relative proportions of the two gases  were. 
> Normal air contains 20.9% O2 and 0.04% CO2 by volume.  In caves  with bad 
> air, the CO2 typically displaces the O2 proportionately so that if CO2  
> levels 
> approach 4%, then O2 levels are usually 17%. It should be noted that this  
> relationship does not always apply !
>  
> 
> To test for CO2, use the BIC lighter test that Butch Fralia published some  
> years ago:  
> "I've followed the air quality measurement comments of the last few Digests 
>  with great interest. Over the last nine years I've participated in a 
> volunteer  cave research project at a Texas State Park. Of the 150+ caves on 
> the 
> park,  the majority have some level of measurable CO2 accumulation ranging  
> from detectable to deadly. Over the course of this project, the state has  
> furnished air quality instruments for our use. One is an electronic oxygen  
> meter and a Draeger device. Using these instruments, we've taken  literally 
> thousands of air quality measurements. 
> "The Draeger instrument was by far the most reliable. The problem with the  
> Draeger is the high cost of the tubes, of which one is expended with each  
> measurement and not reusable. The Oxygen meter has a probe that must cleaned 
>  often and replaced about every three months. I don't know if later model  
> instruments have this same problem. The oxygen meters are calibrated on the  
> surface at 21% oxygen. It's easily knocked out of calibration while moving  
> through tight passage areas. 
> "Unless a caver is involved in a research project such as the one on the  
> state park, the cheapest and most reliable air quality instrument available 
> is  a 

[Texascavers] Robber Baron Thank You

[Joe & Evelynn Mitchell]

I wanted to extend a huge thank you to all the volunteers that came  
and made last Saturday's Robber Baron open house a success. 153 people  
got to tour the cave (plus many of the volunteers) and over $800 was  
raised for TCMA! All the people who got to go through the cave seemed  
to greatly enjoy themselves and complimented the volunteers on their  
friendliness and helpfulness. I think we got several people interested  
enough in caves to want to join the grotto.


Here is hopefully a complete list of everyone who came to help. Let me  
know if I forgot anyone.


Mark Childre
Charles Nystrom
Alan Montemayor
Jon Montemayor
Garry White
Tom Florer
Randy Baker
Jill Orr
Shayne Hawkins
Mike Harris
Sam Viera
Joe Schaertl
Steve Gutting
Don Arburn
Yvonne Vargas
Marvin Miller
Lisa Miller
Christin Miller
Lea Miller
Tommy Joe
Monica Ponce
Tom Brown
Arron Wertheim
Chris Franke
Leslie Bell
Wayne Hutchinson
Bryan Scott
Katie Scott
Geary Schindel
Lyndon Tiu
Nicholas Previc
Jenne Akers
David Daniel
Alex Dunaway
Journey Bisset
Rob Bisset
Chris Riggio
Jean Bodeau
Zach Schudrowitz
Chris Vreeland
Jacob Vreeland
Sheena McCrary
Ellie Thoene
Josh Rubinstein
Kevin McGowan
Evelynn Mitchell
Kayla Mitchell

Thanks again!
Joe Mitchell



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[Texascavers] Volunteers needed for TCMA Robber Baron open house

[Joe & Evelynn Mitchell]

TCMA is hosting a fundraiser and open house at Robber Baron Preserve  
on Saturday, April 10. Its a chance for members of the public to  
explore a cave and for TCMA to raise awareness and hopefully raise  
some money as well. We are still in need of 10-15 volunteers to help  
out with this event. If you are able to come, please let me know. The  
event runs from 9am - 3pm and after its over, you are welcome to play  
around in the cave. If you are coming from out of town and need a  
place to stay, let me know so accommodations can be arranged.


Thanks!
Joe Mitchell
210-859-2105

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[Texascavers] Rancho Diana Karst Survey Project

[Joe & Evelynn Mitchell]

If you aren't participating in one of the other fine caving events  
next weekend, but still want to get out and do something, you can join  
in the Rancho Diana Karst Survey project.


This project is an ongoing survey of 1300 acres in northwest Bexar  
County owned by the City of San Antonio. There are known caves that  
need to be surveyed and lots of land to ridgewalk. The project began  
last fall and this Sat., Feb 6 is the next scheduled date. If you are  
interested or want more details, contact me off list.


Thanks,

Joe Mitchell
210-859-2105
joemitch...@satx.rr.com

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[Texascavers] Fwd: Understanding the geology behind a landslide

[Joe & Evelynn Mitchell]

Understanding the geology behind a landslide

Reported by: Steve Linscomb
Email: stevelinsc...@woaitv.com
Last Update: 6:42 pm

Landslide Close-Up (WOAI.com)
SAN ANTONIO - A number of Northwest Side homeowners are watching as  
their homes are devastated as they slide down a slope. Sadly, there's  
not much they can do. But many in the area -- and all across San  
Antonio -- are wondering, why is it this happening?


Geologists say landslides and other types of land movments can, and  
do, happen in South Central Texas for a number of different reasons.  
Many times they happen in areas where construction is going on.


We talked with homeowners that could only watch their homes slide and  
wonder what's happening. Travis Walston first noticed the crack in his  
yard and called about it when it began to grow big enough to look down  
into it.


"You could see the different layers... there's a lot of earth. There's  
a lot of mother nature in this," Walston told News 4 WOAI. "I don't  
understand the retaining wall. There's no rebar. There's really no  
support."


So what could be happening here? We talked with Saint Mary's  
University professor of geophysics Evelynn Mitchell who says it looks  
to be an example of what is called "mass wasting." That's the downward  
movement of earth and rock. At work are two forces.


"Your resistant forces are going to keep this slope held up over time.  
The driving forces are what is encouraging the slope to move  
downward," explained Professor Mitchell.


If the driving force downward is greater, you can have a collapse.

Mitchell says water collection can add more problems, expanding the  
soil.


"Then the water is going to end up pushing along the slope, adding  
more force and overcoming that resistant force," said Mitchell.


It could be a while before we know exactly what happened in that  
Northwest Side neighborhood, but one thing's for sure; the landscape  
across South Central Texas is changing... whether it be from manmade  
or natural reasons.


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[Texascavers] Historical Newspapers

[Joe & Evelynn Mitchell]

A few months ago, I found that thousands of old newspapers are now  
scanned and online - and more importantly, full text searchable!


There seem to be two sites where you can access these:
www.ancestry.com
They offer a 2 week free trial with full access.

www.newspaperarchive.com
You can do some limited free searching, but pay access is needed to  
view the full articles, but you can subscribe for a single month at a  
time.


In particular, all of the San Antonio newspapers seem to be available  
- back to the mid-1800's. Using these sources, I have found over 50  
previously unknown articles about Robber Baron Cave from 1911-1950 and  
stumbled across numerous articles about other Texas caves - though I  
haven't really searched in detail yet. It seems that cave exploration  
in this area was quite popular in the late 1800's and early 20th  
century. Reading the articles are rather amusing since people had  
rather different ideas about caves and what they might contain - and  
the reporting tended to be rather hyperbolic! (maybe that part hasn't  
changed much)


Joe


On Dec 22, 2009, at 12:28 PM, Louise Power wrote:

Also try the paper's archives. In my family history project, I found  
that most newspapers have their past issues on microfilm or  
microfiche. The only cost will be a small copy fee. Smaller  
newspapers sometimes have actual hard copies (older ones may be  
quite delicate, so you may not be able to get access to them). The  
archives of newspapers which are no longer publishing may be stored/ 
microfilmed/microfiched at colleges and universities, or local  
historical societies or Morman Family History Centers.


Louise

> From: gv...@warpdriveonline.com
> To: texascavers@texascavers.com
> CC: crai...@durango.net
> Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2009 08:54:28 -0700
> Subject: RE: [Texascavers] FW: san antonio light article
>
> The cave in question is Skeleton Cave and was described in "The  
Caves of
> Bexar County, second edition." The cave was in an old quarry in  
what is now
> San Pedro Park, just north of downtown San Antonio and not too far  
from
> Olmos Park. No evidence of the cave exists today, except possibly  
some small
> holes in a short cliff in the northeast corner of the park. I  
never found
> any information on where the bones ended up, but I haven't checked  
the
> obvious sources like the Texas Archeological Research Lab or  
university

> collections that would have existed at the time.
>
> The size of the skeleton is almost certainly exaggerated. At the  
time it was
> discovered, untrained people commonly tried to reassemble the  
pieces and
> didn't realize that a disarticulated skeleton, unless correctly  
reassembled,
> would seem substantially larger than the person was when alive.  
The skeleton

> couldn't be "stretched" to 8 ft tall in that manner, but people's
> imaginations and exaggerations certainly did. Antediluvian giants  
were all

> the rage back then.
>
> If the newspaper article is still needed, I can dig around for it  
during the

> holidays. I'm pretty sure I have and can scan and send it to anyone
> interested.
>
> George
>
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Butch Fralia [mailto:bfra...@maverickgrotto.org]
> Sent: Tuesday, December 22, 2009 1:18 AM
> To: 'TexasCavers'
> Cc: crai...@durango.net
> Subject: [Texascavers] FW: san antonio light article
>
> Any of you cave historians around San Antonio ever heard of  
something like

> this?
>
> Butch
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Craig Herman [mailto:crai...@durango.net]
> Sent: Tuesday, December 22, 2009 1:52 AM
> To: webmas...@cavetexas.org
> Subject: san antonio light article
>
> To Cavetexas,
>
> During the mid to late l980's there was a multi-page article in the
> Sunday edition of the San Antonio Light that discussed the cave in
> Olmos Park and caves that surrounded the city. What was fascinating
> was that the article claimed that during the '20's or '30's  
remains of

> giant skeletons were found; over 8 feet tall. I'm not sure what cave
> it was but it was in the city area. These remains were removed and
> disappeared. If you have any info on this or a link to the original
> article I would appreciate it. I haven't been able to locate the
> original on line so far. Many thanks.
>
> Craig Herman
> crai...@durango.net
>
>
>  
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>
>  
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[Texascavers] Birth Announcement

[Joe & Evelynn Mitchell]

We are happy to announce the birth of the newest Texas Caver: Kayla  
Anne Mitchell. She was born at 8:08 pm last evening after squeezing  
out through a small passage and is 6 lbs 6 oz and 19 in long. Everyone  
is happy and doing great!


Joe & Evelynn

Sent from my iPhone

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[Texascavers] Fwd: "Cavers explore the unexplored"

[Joe & Evelynn Mitchell]

From today's San Antonio Express News about last Wednesday's ICS  
trip to Government Canyon:


http://www.mysanantonio.com/news/Cavers_explore_the_unexplored.html

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[Texascavers] ICS - Cultural and Family trip leaders still needed!

[Joe & Evelynn Mitchell]

Time is getting short and we are still in need of trip leaders for  
the Cultural and Family Trips!


These are day trips (on days other than Wednesday) to various tourist  
locations near Kerrville. Below are the trips still in need of  
volunteers (and the days they are scheduled). Positions are noted as  
primary and standby. The primary person helps with arranging final  
details, running the trip, and driving one of the vans. The standby  
person is the driver for the second van if enough people sign up to  
require it, but that person may not be needed.



Sea World - Tuesday
Primary & standby needed

Fredricksburg/Enchanted Rock - Thursday
Primary person needed

Riverwalk/Alamo - Thursday
Primary & standby needed

San Antonio Missions - Friday
Standby person needed


Kayaking Trips
Due to the lack of water, we are canceling the downstream kayaking  
trips. However, we would still like to offer a local option in  
Kerrville to get on the water. The trips will now go to Kerrville- 
Schriner Park and from there people can paddle around on the lake  
which is about a mile long. For this trip, one volunteer is needed  
each day to transport people from the site to the park and check-out  
and check-in the kayaks. A volunteer is needed for each of the  
following days:

Monday
Tuesday
Thursday
Friday


Leaders for all trips must be at least 25 years old.

If you can help out, please contact me.

Joe Mitchell
joemitch...@satx.rr.com
210-859-2105

Thanks!



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[Texascavers] ICS - Cultural and Family trip leaders needed!

[Joe & Evelynn Mitchell]

Do you know someone attending ICS who wants to help but might not  
want to lead a caving trip? Trip leaders are still needed for the  
Cultural and Family Trips! These are day trips (on days other than  
Wednesday) to various tourist locations which attendees might want to  
take their family. Below are the trips still in need of volunteers  
(and the days they are scheduled). One or two volunteers are needed  
for each trip:


Sea World - Tuesday
San Antonio Missions - Thursday
Riverwalk/Alamo - Friday
Hill Country Wine Tour - Friday

The leader needs to plan the route and itinerary (I can provide  
assistance), prepare a description for posting, and drive the van to  
the destinations and back to Kerrville (minimum age 25).


If you can help out, please contact me.

Joe Mitchell
joemitch...@satx.rr.com
210-859-2105

Additionally we need people who are willing to be available to help  
with a series of potential kayaking trips throughout the week. These  
trips are contingent upon getting rain and currently the water levels  
are too low to support having the trips. However, if things improve,  
we will need people available on Monday, Tuesday, Thursday, and  
Friday to drive people to and from the river, accompany the kayakers,  
and be responsible for transporting the kayaks in a trailer that is  
available. If you can help, contact Rob Bisset at  
robert.c.b1...@gmail.com or myself.


Thanks!



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[Texascavers] Kendall cave now a national landmark

[Joe & Evelynn Mitchell]

http://www.mysanantonio.com/entertainment/ 
Kendall_cave_now_a_national_landmark.html


Web Posted: 02/04/2009 11:49 CST
Kendall cave now a national landmark

By Zeke MacCormack - Express-News
National honors have been bestowed upon The Cave Without A Name, an  
underground attraction that’s off the beaten path – but been a  
favorite for 70 years – in Kendall County.


The National Parks Service today announced that the cave owned by  
Houston business man Tom Summers is among four sites added to the  
list of National Natural Landmarks – bringing the total number of  
listed sites to 586 under the program begun in 1962.


 “I don’t know if it will change the business much, but it’s nice to  
have the recognition,” said Mike Burrell, manager of the cave off  
Kreutzberg Road, northeast of Boerne, which attracts about 11,000  
visitors annually. “Its not like we’re going to become a national  
park or anything.”


The cave stands out, in the view of the National Parks Service, for  
“its unique speleothems, significant paleontological deposits and  
important cave fauna,” said Heather Germaine, regional national  
natural landmark coordinator with the park service.


In plain language, it has lots of cool rock formations and rare  
salamanders  that visitors can enjoy, as well as an underground  
river, during hourlong tours that are offered every day but  
Thanksgiving and Christmas.


The cave opened to the public in 1939, and a contest was held to name  
it the next year.


Cave lore holds that the winning entry came from a local student who  
said  the cave was "too pretty to have a name." The non-name stuck,  
except for a few years in the 1970s when it was temporarily called   
"Century Cave."


Until the 1990s, the low-key cave was promoted primarily with hand- 
scrawled plywood signs erected along Kreutzberg Road.


Boerne Mayor Dan Heckler cheered the cave’s elevation to the status  
of official landmark, saying, "Our local attraction has now become a  
national at traction that will draw more people to our historic Hill  
Country paradise.”


Germaine said the cave’s landmark designation may boost business but  
that’s not the parks service’s primary aim.


“We’re trying to provide recognition that this site is nationally  
significant,” she said Wednesday.


 Only six new sites have been designated as national landmarks in  
the last 20 years, she said, and the cave was deemed worthy in an  
evaluation conducted by George Veni, an independent scientist who  
first submitted his findings on it in 2003 to the parks service.


Germaine, who also visited the cave years ago, said, “It is quite a  
beautiful cave with specific geologic features that make it eligible  
for a national landmark designation.”


 Burrell, agreed, saying, “It’s one of the few commercial caves  
where you can get down to an underground river, and it has nice big  
rooms with flat floors and nice formations.


“Customers often say it looks like it was created, not  natural,  
because it’s so perfect,” Burrell said from the small stone building  
that doubles as the gift shop and offices for the cave's four employees.


Additional details at cavewithoutaname.com