[Therion] Import to Therion from Qave

[Graham Mullan]

Hi All

Someone I am working with is collecting his data using an application called 
Qave. He is having a problem exporting to Therion to do the final drawing.

I have no experience of Qave (spoiler, I've never heard of it before) so can 
offer no advice as to how to do this.

Can anyone on here assist?

Graham

graham.mul...@coly.org.uk

In the UK +44 7887 637064 or +44 117 9502556
In France +33 5 53 51 19 15 or +33 6 02 53 37 81
France from the Uk 0844 232 7803


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[Therion] Fix station point using only 2D

[Graham Mullan via Therion]

I think there are two issues here. I have skewed surveys built on 2D data using 
3D fixed points and that seems, to me, to be what is happening here.

Firstly, if your radiolocation point has no depth information then you cannot 
use it for a 3D skew which I think (I may be wrong) as it is insufficiently 
accurate.

Secondly, if your survey is both only in 2D and has an apparent error of as 
much as 150 m from the radiolocation point then there is something wildly wrong 
with the data.

Your best bet - and yes I have been forced to do exactly this - is to resurvey 
the cave to 3D standards, whether this be compass/clino or Distox and start 
again.

Sorry, but your dataset is simply not good enough. 

Graham

-Original Message-
From: Therion  On Behalf Of therion-requ...@speleo.sk
Sent: 22 August 2018 12:00
To: therion@speleo.sk
Subject: Therion Digest, Vol 152, Issue 9

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Today's Topics:

   1. Re: Fix station point using only 2D (kevin dixon)
   2. Re: Fix station point using only 2D (Martin Sluka)
   3. Re: Fix station point using only 2D (Xavier Pennec)
   4. Eurospeleo 2018 (Stacho Mudrak)


--

Message: 1
Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2018 11:06:05 +0100
From: kevin dixon 
To: List for Therion users 
Subject: Re: [Therion] Fix station point using only 2D
Message-ID:

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

Adam,

Radio-location can give you depth but accuracy is not too good.
How have your surface positions at the entrance(s) and the radio location been 
determined ?
Professional GNSS (~3cm), DGPS(~1m) or hand held (~3m) ?

I have radio-location fixes at the far end of a system to control any 
accumulated azimuth bias.
For these I have assigned an elevation to the radio-location equivalent to the 
cave survey at the radio location point and used an appropriate SD value for 
the radio location data. You may have to iterate a few times and experiment 
with SD values to see how it changes your survey with and without the radio 
location fix(s).

Also better if you have radio location fixes at different points because 
geology effects the position.
Use several in the survey - you should see how they fit (or not) - reject the 
wildly out ones, adjusting to the rest will help reduce any bias.

150m is a lot of difference so I would be looking at the positional method 
used, datum and grid, survey instrument calibrations, declination values and 
then get additional radio locations to confirm. If you are dealing with older 
survey data then you may want to consider a compass bias - does a survey 
rotation significantly reduce the difference ?

Kevin Dixon

On Tue, Aug 21, 2018 at 10:41 AM, Adam Pyka via Therion 
wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> How to 'fix' the survey station point (to morph the cave plan) having 
> only 2D coordinates?
>
> Using the radiolocation we get (with quite good accuracy) the station 
> point position which is about 150m beyond the estimated location we 
> get from surveying. So now I wanted to use this position to make a 
> correction to the main polygon. But the 'fix' command need a 3D coords 
> so how should I do that (no, there is no point to measure the depth by 
> radiolocation by some reasons).
>
> Thanks in an advice,
> Adam
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Message: 2
Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2018 12:22:11 +0200
From: Martin Sluka 
To: List for Therion users 
Subject: Re: [Therion] Fix station point using only 2D
Message-ID: <8151b013-8ca1-49ac-b486-478cd9643...@mac.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8

Add label altitude to that station and use it. 


Odesláno z iPhonu

21. 8. 2018 v 11:46, Henry.Bennett--- via Therion :

> Assuming that you've got another fix for the entrance then you should be able 
> to get the height for the end station.  Just look at the .3d file.  That will 
> give you the relative altitude at the end - just use that.
> 
> Henry
> -Original Message-
> From: Therion  On Behalf Of Adam Pyka via 
> Therion
> Sent: 21 August 2018 10:42
> To: therion@speleo.sk
> Cc: Adam Pyka
> Subject: [Therion] Fix station point using only 2D
> 
> Hi all,
> 
> How to 'fix' the survey station point (to morph the cave plan) having only 2D

Re: [Therion] SDs for distoX surveys

[Graham Mullan via Therion]

I am not sufficiently versed in the maths to suggest what figures might be
used, but I do want to know why you think that the 3-times feature might
affect the expected error for the angles but not for the length?

Graham

-Original Message-
From: Survex  On Behalf Of Wookey
Sent: 04 August 2018 01:37
To: Survex User Group ; Therion List 
Subject: SDs for distoX surveys

Has anyone thought about what the correct SDs for distoX/distoX2 (as opposed
to compass and tape) surveys are?  I reckon distoX surveys have
significantly lower expected error, due to the 'measure 3 times'
leg feature (if used) and just higher accuracy due to instrument itself,
ease of taking readings (no need to get head near station), and no
difficulties with steep legs > 15 degrees.

Seems to me this means that we should be using different SDs for these
surveys (at least for bearing and inclination readings - length is not
obviously more reliable), but I'm not sure how to quantify those
improvements.

Anyone got any ideas what numbers to use?

Wookey
--
Principal hats:  Linaro, Debian, Wookware, ARM http://wookware.org/

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[Therion] TerrainTool

[Graham Mullan via Therion]

Mike McCombe's TerrainTool has been fixed and is available again from 
http://www.ubss.org.uk/terraintool/terraintool.php Download and enjoy.

It may not use the latest data but it remains the most straightforward way of 
adding topographic detail to Therion 3D models.

Graham

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[Therion] Development 5.4.1+4369eea inverts and recolours altitude

[Graham Mullan via Therion]

Are we talking about relative numbers (depth of cave) or absolute numbers 
(height above sea level)? The former may run differently to the latter. I 
usually use absolute numbers, if at all possible.

Graham

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Re: [Therion] Therion Digest, Vol 143, Issue 1

[Graham Mullan via Therion]

Ben Cooper wrote:

Is there a way to incorporate Theodolite data into Therion?

We dealt with historic theodolite data by fudging it and using the generated 
legacy listing of fixed points. However, when needing to use a total station in 
an area of a show cave with too much ironmongery to use magnetic instruments, 
we took a magnetic bearing on the first total station leg and took that as a 
baseline.

Graham 

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Re: [Therion] Exporting 3d models

[Graham Mullan via Therion]

What about webgl, does Therion support it?

-Original Message-
From: Martin Sluka [mailto:martinsl...@mac.com] 
Sent: 21 October 2017 17:02
To: List for Therion users 
Cc: Graham Mullan 
Subject: Re: [Therion] Exporting 3d models

What about webgl?

m.s. 

Odesláno z iPhonu

21. 10. 2017 v 15:23, Graham Mullan via Therion :

> Is there any plan to allow the export of lox models in pdf format, so 
> that they can be manipulated in Adobe Acrobat Reader? This would allow 
> 3d models to be viewed more widely, by users who otherwise have no 
> need to download & install Therion.
> 
> Graham
> 
> graham.mul...@coly.org.uk
> 
> 
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[Therion] Exporting 3d models

[Graham Mullan via Therion]

Is there any plan to allow the export of lox models in pdf format, so that
they can be manipulated in Adobe Acrobat Reader? This would allow 3d models
to be viewed more widely, by users who otherwise have no need to download &
install Therion.

Graham

graham.mul...@coly.org.uk


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Re: [Therion] How to do better join from scraps in different .th2

[Graham Mullan via Therion]

Am I reading this correctly? You are saying that Topodroid exports every scrap 
as an individual pair of .th and .th2 files? If that's the case, you don't need 
a protocol for working in Therion, you need to writers of Topodroid to alter 
their export protocols so that your entire day's surveying is exported as a 
single pair of .th and .th2 files which you can break down into scraps as you 
wish. My reading of this as it seems to stand would have every X-section 
exported as separate .th and .th2 files, which is just ridiculous.

Have I got something wrong?

Graham

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Re: [Therion] Multiple fixes for the same point

[Graham Mullan via Therion]

Andrew has shown up an interesting flaw in both Therion and Survex. A single 
fix of a point, unless otherwise qualified, will always be presumed to be more 
accurate than multiple fixes than multiple fixes even though (I suppose, I 
don't have the maths) the latter should be better. Unless one is using a decent 
dGPS system to fix the points, it is also potentially the case that the 
relationship between two fixed points at entrances will be better described by 
the intervening underground survey data than by the GPS fixes made using 
consumer hand-held devices.

I will soon have to be dealing with a similar problem with a multi-entrance 
cave as the various lines of data join up - like Andrew's this is a dataset 
obtained on expo and I'll not get any more data until next year so 'soon' is a 
bit wrong. I think we will solve this by getting as good a fix as possible for 
one entrance and then using our survey data to delimit the other entrances. 
I'll also, however collect GPS records of the same spots and highlight the 
differences.

The answer may be to insist that fixed point data must include an estimate of 
precision and that non-entry for that field would default to something worse 
than an exact fix.

I have, in the past done this the other way around, though. I have a dataset 
for one relatively linear multi-entrance cave, but the data is very old and was 
not collected using an inclinometer, passage gradients are generally of the 
order of 2-3 degrees. So I used the fixed points for the entrances to skew the 
profile of the cave. The resulting model was a reasonable facsimile of reality.

Graham

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[Therion] Mud and clay

[Graham Mullan via Therion]

Rob Countess wrote:

" Well, in my mind, clay is a more specifically defined substance based on 
mineral content and particle size. Mud is larger particles, more organics, and 
less homogenous. Clay is what you make pots from and is less frequent in 
Canadian caves in my experience ..."

Clay is something more of a technical term and means a sediment with particle 
sizes in the range  0.98–3.9 µm. This is finer than silt and much finer than 
sand. Mud, on the other hand is not a technical term being defined as a mixture 
of 'earth' or 'dirt' and water. It is difficult to think of a circumstance 
where a symbol for mud might be required that isn't covered by clay, silt or 
sand unless you are looking at fairly recently deposited material with a large 
organic component which might be better considered as 'flood debris' and 
possibly too ephemeral to mark on a map?

Just my thoughts.

Graham


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[Therion] view several caves in 3D (Philippe Vernant)

[Graham Mullan via Therion]

Phillipe Vernant said:

I have several caves in the same area, and I would like to see them all in 3D. 
I have a .th file that have the links to all the cave.th and so I can compile 
to get the 3D model of all the caves, but, can I compile each cave 
independently and then join them all up in one 3D viewer, loch for example ? 
I’d like to pick the ones I want to see in 3D and not to have to recompile each 
time.

Hi Phil

An output file cannot as far as I am aware simply be combined with another 
output file which I think is what you are asking. You can produce different 
output files showing different caves by using 'select' commands in your 
thconfig file and choosing which ones you want to output at any one time But 
adding one .lox file to another or one .3d file to another post compilation, 
not possible I think.

Graham

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[Therion] combining several lox files

[Graham Mullan via Therion]

Benedikt Hallinger said:

" the last problem now is, that the surface lox is in a different coordinate 
system than the caves (EPSG:31468 vs. lat-long) :/ I hoped loch would recognize 
this and recalculate as appropriate, but that was not the case. Is there some 
option to convert conveniently?"

I have never used Lat/Long but I do have a quite extensive data set that uses 
two different EPSG numbers, one UTM - and I think there's an IOS or two in 
there somewhere but cannot find them quickly - and this has generated a lox 
file that seems to have put everything in the right places. I have only ever 
seen "computer says no" messages when there have been sections where the 
co-ordinate system had not been specified at all.

I'd be wary about stating the cs in your thconfig file as that will clash if a 
different cs has been used elsewhere in the data set, I think.

Graham

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[Therion] Simple Android Software with export to Therion

[Graham Mullan]

Cookie said:

"I notice the Galaxy Note GT-N7000 can be had for less than £100 on ebay. 
It has a proper digitiser."

How easily can they be made proof and what is the battery life like?

Graham 

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[Therion] Simple Android Software with export to Therion

[Graham Mullan]

The question is, Bjørn, have you found a decent Android tablet that has a
good screen for drawing on using a stencil and is also 'caveproof'? Without
this, we cannot really move on from PDAs.

Graham


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[Therion] Therion Digest, Vol 127, Issue 11

[Graham Mullan]

Martin Sluka said

> 19. 7. 2016 v 12:12, Graham Mullan :
> 
> The one thing to remember is that its output is a Compass data file which 
> means that whatever you think you did when using it, it will automatically 
> convert all lengths to decimal feet.

It looks that last version I have is able to use meters too. 

It'll take input in metres, but I think you'll find the output is still in 
feet. I'm pretty sure that he has no intention of rewriting Compass to that 
extent.

Graham

[Therion] Map to Data

[Graham Mullan]

Bruce wrote:

"Also notice you have added a link to an executable for converting maps to data.

Is there a page or some information about what it is and how it works?

Some might be nervous about downloading an executable directly without any 
explanation about what it is and how it works (in case it is malware)"

Bruce

That program is part of Larry Fish's "Compass" suite. It is perfectly safe to 
use. The one thing to remember is that its output is a Compass data file which 
means that whatever you think you did when using it, it will automatically 
convert all lengths to decimal feet. This is not an issue just as long as you 
remember it. I've used it a number of times, but only on small caves or mines, 
so I've had little problem editing the output into a therion or survex file by 
hand - and remembering to add the line "tape units feet" to it.

Graham

[Therion] Colouring by map or scrap

[Graham Mullan]

The problem that I have with colour is that assigning the colours
automatically means it's difficult to get matching colours on plan and
elevation. It works on straightforward cases, you just put the maps in the
same order on plan & elevation & it assigns the colours in the same order.
This does not work if you have a number of elevations on different
projections. Thus far I've only managed this match by post-processing in
GIMP or Paint.net.

The ability to assign colours would be useful indeed.

Graham

-Original Message-
From: therion-bounces at speleo.sk [mailto:therion-boun...@speleo.sk] On Behalf
Of therion-request at speleo.sk
Sent: 11 March 2016 11:00
To: therion at speleo.sk
Subject: Therion Digest, Vol 123, Issue 1

Send Therion mailing list submissions to
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When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than
"Re: Contents of Therion digest..."


Today's Topics:

   1. Setting Scrap Colours (Footleg)
   2. Re: Setting Scrap Colours (Bruce Mutton)
   3. Re: Setting Scrap Colours (Footleg)


--

Message: 1
Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2016 13:25:28 +
From: Footleg 
Subject: [Therion] Setting Scrap Colours
To: List for Therion users 
Message-ID:

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

I've been doing some more work on my Therion Tutorial, which has led me to
explore more options than I typically use. One of these is to colour scraps
different colours. All I can find in the Therion Book is how to specify to
colour map-fg by altitude or by scrap. If I do either of these then the
colours are assigned automatically. I've searched my email history and seen
that colour by altitude has been discussed before, but I can't work out if
there is supposed to be a way to set the colour for a scrap?

If this isn't currently possible, then if would be ideally implemented in
the layout so that if is not coded into the drawings of the scraps
themselves. Perhaps a syntax to let you specify as follows:

colour  

Am I missing a way to do this in the existing release?

Footleg
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Message: 2
Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2016 07:20:54 +1300
From: Bruce Mutton 
Subject: Re: [Therion] Setting Scrap Colours
To: List for Therion users 
Message-ID: 
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"



I use colour by scrap quite often as a drawing aid. Random is fine for that.
Colour by map would be the more useful to be able to specify for 'finished
presentations'.?
Colour by map has been discussed and requested from time to time.
Bruce
Sent from my Samsung device, hence the typo's

 Original message 
From: Footleg 
Date: 11/03/2016  02:25  (GMT+12:00)
To: List for Therion users 
Subject: [Therion] Setting Scrap Colours 

I've been doing some more work on my Therion Tutorial, which has led me to
explore more options than I typically use. One of these is to colour scraps
different colours. All I can find in the Therion Book is how to specify to
colour map-fg by altitude or by scrap. If I do either of these then the
colours are assigned automatically. I've searched my email history and seen
that colour by altitude has been discussed before, but I can't work out if
there is supposed to be a way to set the colour for a scrap?
If this isn't currently possible, then if would be ideally implemented in
the layout so that if is not coded into the drawings of the scraps
themselves. Perhaps a syntax to let you specify as follows:
colour  
Am I missing a way to do this in the existing release?
Footleg
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Message: 3
Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2016 09:52:51 +
From: Footleg 
Subject: Re: [Therion] Setting Scrap Colours
To: List for Therion users 
Message-ID:

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

Does colour by map not work? I thought it was an option specified in the
Therion book in this section:

? colo[u]r   ? customize colour for special map items (map-fg,
mapbg, preview-above, preview-below, label). Colour range is 0?100 for
grayscale,
[0?100
0?100 0?100] triplet for RGB colours.
For map-fg, you can use altitude, scrap or map as colours. In this case the
map is coloured according to altitude, scraps or maps.
For map-bg, you can use transparent to omit page background completely.
For labels, you can switch colour 

[Therion] Best practice - orientation of original sketch? (Bill Gee)

[Graham Mullan]

Bill Gee said:

"My solution is to choose a map rotation early and stick with it, and also
to not put images on the map until almost the last step."

This presupposes that the cave will never be extended again, especially in
'unexpected' directions. Let us say that North up is chosen as a map
orientation. Let us then say that before the known cave has been completely
mapped a large extension is discovered that trends south-west. Then another
one is found elsewhere in the system that trends east. It may be that the
convenient orientation of the map will change during the course of the
project.

To Therion users this does not matter one jot as Therion will always rotate
stuff as required. And I don't know about anyone else, but especially in
complex projects I have always to return to .th2 files to tweak the exact
positions (and sizes, sometimes) of labels in order to ensure best fit in
the final drawing.

Thus I would always (if being forced not to use a PDA for some reason)
survey to use pages to their maximum extent and put up with the minor
inconvenience of reading sideways whilst drawing up scraps, 'cos whatever
you choose, arbitrarily, you will always be wrong at some point.

As an aside this is also in part why we try to generate the finished product
as a pdf directly from Therion rather than importing into another drawing
program as it cuts out the need to do parts of the job twice. The drawback
with this is that Therion is not quite yet as flexible as I would like,
notably in the management of colour and in the availability of different
fonts and text characters (ampersand, copyright symbol etc). I know - or
suspect - that some of these latter issues might be solvable in MetaPost,
but I'm a rubbish programmer who can just about cope with php and html but
no more.

Graham

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[Therion] degree symbol

[Graham Mullan]

How does one get a degree symbol into a point label? I have seen a complex way 
of
coding one into a map comment in a thconfig file, but it would be better if one 
could
simply put it into a label's text in a th2 file.



Graham

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[Therion] Therion Digest, Vol 117, Issue 8

[Graham Mullan]

In Therion Digest 117.8, Juan Corrin said:

> It seems daft to me that enthusiastic surveyors are not using the software
because of its complicated front end.
> 

If someone finds data entry into Therion complicated, then they must have
had serious problems making notes in a paper note book. I am not a computing
expert, by any means; some of the Tex coding that Andrew puts into out
thconfig files makes me go wibble. However, Martin is quite correct. A GUI
front end will not help. Anyone who has used Larry Fish's Compass will
understand that a GUI can make some things harder to understand - how do
LRUDs fit in to the leg that they are recorded against, for example - and
are very constraining. When Therion was first written, we didn't take large
quantities of splay readings with a DistoX. Now this is done routinely.
Getting Therion (and, indeed Survex with a similar data entry process)
tweaked to deal with this was relatively straightforward, I believe.
Rejigging a GUI would have been something of a nightmare. Further,
applications like Andrew's Topparser make getting the recorded data into the
computer, into Therion, pretty straightforward indeed.

That deals with the .th file. Dealing with the .th2 files is somewhat more
difficult, but recent improvements, like the context menu when you click on
a line or a point, have improved the working of this enormously. It is
difficult to see how one can change this interface much to make it simpler
to understand. If you get your background file in properly - I routinely
generate xvi files almost as often as I import them from PocketTopo - then
you are dealing with points, lines and areas. Just three things. It's not
that hard, surely, and Footleg's current tutorial is pretty bloody good at
showing how things are done.

Dealing with higher level .th files and with thconfig files is a lot harder,
I agree. However, I do not see, again, how constraining what we have into a
GUI will do anything other than remove the flexibility that we currently
enjoy.

One of the great joys, as far as I am concerned, of Therion is that it will,
once you get all your ducks in a row, generate the finished product pdf at
the press of a button. OK, maybe sometimes two or three buttons, if you are
combining several views into one pdf. In our latest effort, five different
views are combined along with properly placed x-sections and a title blurb
which includes generated data on surveyors & cave length/depth. It is not
perfect, as I haven't yet managed to colour match all the maps properly
between the plan & the 3 elevations, but it's getting there. If you can get
another programmer to match all that in an idiot-friendly GUI program then
I'll be impressed. But I won't hold me breath!

Rant over

Graham
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[Therion] Therion tutorial

[Graham Mullan]

Nick Bairstow wrote:

"I have been giving some thought to producing a tutorial to follow on from
Footlegs wiki item. Unfortunately it's not a simple as I first thought. Over
the next few months I will attempt to come up with something that will
enable a novice therioneer understand the next steps following the Footleg
wiki article. It would be nice to continue using Bull Pot as the sample cave
but I have not got time to re-survey that so I propose we use an existing
data set which could become the default novice reference.
It seems many people give up with Therion as it is difficult to learn but
with a good tutorial and a little help many more could be using it.
What do people think, am I wasting my time, comments please.
Oh and if someone else is already doing something similar please shout up.
No point doing it twice."

I use Footleg's tutorial a lot. If you are not using a program every day,
then having a handy known reference point for the details is always a good
thing. It doesn't cover every single aspect, so if Nick wants to add further
material, I for one would be delighted. Please do it, Nick.

The other main trick for learning in this way is "How did we do this last
time?" or looking back at a previous data set, your own or someone else's,
and seeing how it works. If there was a reference data set available (if not
on the Therion wiki but on the cave-registry page, perhaps) then the
tutorial could certainly link to that. Of course 'live' data can change over
time, so having a fixed example set might be better. Bear in mind that data
for a single cave is insufficient to cover all problems. We routinely
combine data from different caves, because they are close together or, as
has been done several times, to produce a context overview to show a cave in
relation to its neighbours and the land surface. See, for example, the thing
below the caption in the latest version of the Gough's Cave survey
http://www.ubss.org.uk/resources/surveys/survex/Goughs_all.pdf  . Does
anyone have a good multi-cave dataset that is now stable and so can be used
for this purpose?

It is also worth remembering, of course, that different people do some
things differently, an example data set might enshrine work habits that are
not the same as mine or yours.

Graham
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[Therion] Colour control

[Graham Mullan]

Is it possible to ask for more & better control over the use of colour? One of 
the
ways in which this is useful is in allowing viewers to quickly match the same 
parts
of a cave between plan and elevation. This can be done in a straightforward 
manner if
you have one plan and one elevation as the maps (in colour by map) can be 
placed in
matched order and so get allocated the same colours in sequence. Where one has 
more
than one elevation, however, in the example I am working on we have three 
different
elevations all on different projections. Different maps are used for each and,
obviously, they do not get the same full set that the plan gets. Colour 
matching thus
becomes impossible except by using cheats of such complexity that my brain fell 
over.
The final match can be done in an image editor, I imported my final pdf into 
Gimp,
did the match & exported it as a pdf again (Gimp can be recommended for this) 
but it
would be nice to be able to control the whole process in Therion.





Graham

--

  graham.mullan at coly.org.uk



In the UK 0117 9502556 or 07887 637064

France from the UK 0844 2327803

In France 05 53 51 19 15 or 06 02 53 37 81

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[Therion] Turned through Angle Survey

[Graham Mullan]

Martin

I think Andrew is referring to a Total Station survey, though I presume that
data from an old fashioned theodolite would look much the same. What he
needs, I guess, is an automatic way of correcting (calibrating?) the
horizontal angles with regard to North when the traverse is connected in to
fixed points at either end.

Graham
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[Therion] Data set organisation

[Graham Mullan]

Rob

At that source, some data, in this archive:
http://www.cave-registry.org.uk/burrington , notably East Twin Swallet, did 
come from
Walls, but was retyped into Survex by hand, as we then had no conversion program
available to us. From what I recall, Walls does organise data very differently 
to
Survex and Therion (and Compass).

Graham

[Therion] Data set organisation

[Graham Mullan]

Rob

If you want to see how 'some' therion data sets are organised go to
http://www.cave-registry.org.uk/ and take a leisurely look at some examples.

Graham

[Therion] Therion & Walls

[Graham Mullan]

Further to Robert Countess's post, with which I cannot help, I just continue
to wonder at why Mac's are deemed to be so 'easy to use'.



Does anyone (Footleg?) have a converter which will take Walls data & import
it into a format acceptable to Therion? I have some, though by no means as
much as Robert.



Graham



  graham.mullan at coly.org.uk



In the UK: 0117 9502556 or 07887637064 

France from the UK: 0844 2327803
In France: 05 53 51 19 15 or 06 02 53 37 81



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[Therion] Joining old and new surveys

[Graham Mullan]

On Tue, 17 Feb 2015 09:12:00 +0100
Martin Sluka wrote

>It is really a nice piece of software. I use http://winebottler.kronenberg.org 
>to
use it on Mac. Maybe for Linux there is something similar.

Yes it is, very easy to use in most cases.

>As I checked, Compass .dat file is small subset of Therion?s survey and 
>centerline
structure. Very easy to convert it in a plain text editor.

One always has to remember, however, that Compass natively stores all linear
measurements in feet and decimal feet, not in metres. This is the case however 
the
data is inputted. I have accidentally ended up with some alarmingly long caves 
before
remembering this!

Graham

[Therion] Joining old and new surveys

[Graham Mullan]

On Tue, 17 Feb 2015 08:15:16 +0200, Steven Tucker wrote

Hi,

I have an old survey from the 80s and I have new sections that I want to add 
with
Therion. The old survey has no centerline data.

I have redrawn the old survey in a th2 file and allocated 3 points which 
correspond
to 3 different entrances. In the th file I have given coordinates to all 3 of 
those
points. This works perfectly.

I am struggling to connect the new section with this old section. The new 
section
starts in a deep section of the cave and is far away from any of my currently 
defined
points.

What is the easiest way to connect the new and old sections?

Steve

As other contributors have noted, you need centreline data from your entrance 
fixed
points to the start of your new section. There are only two ways to do this:

Run a rapid centreline survey through the cave to the start of the new sections 
&
hang everything off that. Or

Digitise the old survey. I have successfully used Larry Fish's "Map to Dat" 
utility
from "Compass" to do this, though you then have the irritation of converting 
Compass
data to Therion (not difficult, just irritating). 

Both of these approaches work OK when producing 3D models, but I have found them
rather less satisfactory when producing drawings as far various reasons the old
drawings never seem quite 'right'. A third approach is to hunt down the original
surveyors and see if the notes really have been lost or just left in a drawer
somewhere. If the latter, rejoice, if the former then, well, smearing them with 
honey
& lowering them into a pit of tiger ants seems about right.

Alternatively, you could just bite the bullet & resurvey the whole system from
scratch, we've had to do this once or twice & some of the largest systems in 
the UK
have been/are being completely redone for these reasons. If you do take this 
path
then please just ensure that your data is archived properly so no-one else is 
faced
with the same problem in another 30 years or so.

Graham

[Therion] Therion doesn't run on Windows (rowena)

[Graham Mullan]

Dave

One wonders quite what you are doing to get to that command line.

This machine is running Windows 8.1 and has Therion 5.3.16 installed. On
installation, Therion placed a shortcut in my Start menu. That points, as
does Rowena's at

"C:\Program Files (x86)\Therion\bin\wish86t.exe" "C:\Program Files
(x86)\Therion\xtherion.tcl"

Now, if I navigate to therion.exe at C:\Program Files
(x86)\Therion\therion.exe I, too get a command line box and the message:

C:\Program Files (x86)\Therion\therion.exe: error -- source files not
specified.

What I don't quite understand is why your machine doesn't have the correct
shortcut installed.

Graham

[Therion] Displays in the landscape

[Graham Mullan]

Amongst other things, Julian Todd wrote: 

"The big idea is that we should be able to walk around the landscape holding
our big tablet in front of us giving an X-ray view of the cave underneath
us.  Maybe you could hold it up against the mountain and see all the cave
systems inside of it."

An excellent idea, but it does remind me of something I sometimes have a
problem with in Aven and Loch. If you are viewing a large area model with
lots of passage over a wide area, then the picture can get very 'noisy' as
you move around. It may be worth giving an option to fade out all the
passage more than a given distance away from the view point so that you can
concentrate on the stuff nearest to you without getting your view obscured
by stuff that is actually some distance away.

Graham

[Therion] RE :elevation profiles

[Graham Mullan]

Bill Gee wrote:
Hello everyone -

I have several questions regarding elevation profiles.  I am not sure this
is the correct term, so here is a link to a map which shows what I am
looking for.

http://www.planivy.cz/aktivity/47/planivy_mapa.png

The elevation profile is the bottom part of this map.  It is similar to a
cross-section except it goes along the survey centerline.  

1) When creating the scraps, are these defined as "elevation" or as
"extended"?  
I cannot find anything in the Therion book which describes what the
difference is.

2) How are these included in the main map?  

As best I can figure, I need to define a new layout for the profile, export
it, then use some sort of image or include to get it to show up on the main
map.  
If true, then perhaps I need to create a new thconfig file just for the
profile.

Is this illustrated with any of the samples that come with Therion?  I
looked at some (not all) of the samples and did not see anything obvious.

Thanks - Bill Gee

Hi Bill

Yes that's an elevantion. Whether it is extended or projected depends on how
you set it up in the first place. Are you importing paperless data from
pocket topo, in which case I suggest you use Andrew Atkinson's Topparser to
import your data and set you files up properly.

We use a single thconfig file which generates the elevation pdf and then
imports it (as a pdf) into the image being generated for the plan (or vice
versa, either can work).

I suggest that you look at the Cheddar catchment stuff at
http://www.cave-registry.org.uk/svn/CheddarCatchment/ particularly the file
http://www.cave-registry.org.uk/svn/CheddarCatchment/thconfigres+whitespot
or for a slightly simpler alternative, the file
http://www.cave-registry.org.uk/svn/CheddarCatchment/Spider/thconfig

Graham

[Therion] problem

[Graham Mullan]

I don't know much about coding, but our files contain \ rather than just


You could try that.

Graham

[Therion] Compatibility with Survex

[Graham Mullan]

Thanks Stacho

Graham
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[Therion] Importing Compass files

[Graham Mullan]

Olly Betts wrote

If there are other formats people would find it useful to be able to read,
it's probably not hard to add support for them.

Cheers,
Olly

I am very rusty with the way they are organised, but if there is any way of
getting Survex and/or Therion to read files from Walls I'd be grateful.

Graham

[Therion] Importing Compass files

[Graham Mullan]

 Jonny Prouty wrote:

Hi Graham,

You can import a Compass PLT file directly into Therion, but not a DAT as
far as I know.

Best regards,

Jonny

Thanks Jonny, I assume that would be by using similar syntax to that used to
import Survex.3d files. However, as I would need to firstly write a project
level .dat file in order to include the necessary co-ordinate information
before generating the plt file, that makes it no simpler than my 'quick and
dirty' fix of importing the original .plt file into Survex and then
importing the resultant .3d file into Therion.

This also has the advantage of consistent syntax in my Therion file making
it easier to see errors.

Graham

[Therion] Compatibility with Survex

[Graham Mullan]

Thanks guys.

Yes, I am doing as Footleg suspected and importing already generated
survex.3d files in this case. That's partially to save time, as I seem to be
on a deadline with this, strange feeling for a survey project, and that's
the way much of the data is getting to me. I have also been given some data
in Compass.dat files & I can import that into Survex to generate a .3d but
I've been never been able to get it to import directly into Therion. Does
it?

I could convert the data to Therion but that's time consuming to get right &
as I said, I seem to have a deadline on this.

However, thanks to Footleg I now know which version of Survex to use. I'd
gone all the way back to 1.1.15 just to make sure it worked!

Graham

[Therion] Compatibility with Survex

[Graham Mullan]

In the latest project in which I am involved, I am having to import data
from Survex (actually from Compass via Survex but that's another story!).
This requires importing survex 3d files. The problem that I have is that .3d
files generated in the most recent iterations of Survex cannot be read by
Therion. I had the same problem some years back & eventually they caught up
with each other, but it seems that the Survex format has changed too much
once again.

Can this be rectified, please 'cos it's a pain in the bum.

Graham
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[Therion] vertical magnitude

[Graham Mullan]

Someone has just suggested that a facility to exaggerate the vertical
magnitude when vieweing elevations might be useful. I agree & know that such
a distortion has been used in diagrams in many papers over the years. Is
there any possibility of putting this on the 'wants' list?


Graham

--

graham.mullan at coly.org.uk



In the UK 0117 9502556 or 07887 637064

France from the UK 0844 2327803

In France 05 53 51 19 15 or 06 02 53 37 81


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[Therion] PDF display

[Graham Mullan]

It's strange, but I thought that the whole point of pdf was that the
document would present in identical fashion across displays and platforms.
Has anyone tried printing from different rendering engines & seeing in what
ways the results differ?

Screen display is all very well, but if you are having printing done,
especially by a print shop whose software you have no control over, how do
you know what the results are going to look like before you have coughed up
the (frequently not inconsiderable) price.

What I do know is that if I export to jpg from, Acrobat then the results do
seem to look the same as the Acrobat rendition & those are what get
incorporated into journals. But for A1 or A0 posters I give pdf files to the
print shop. As yet, as far as memory tells me (I have none to hand) they
look like the Acrobat rendition, but others may have different experiences
to me.

Graham

[Therion] PDF display

[Graham Mullan]

I have just noticed that Adobe Acrobat and the (unnamed) pdf viewer
currently opening from Firefox on this machine render coloured files very
differently. It's not just that the tones are different, but, for example,
in Acrobat boulders and the passage containing them are the same shade. In
the other viewer the boulders render a darker tone than the remainder of the
passage. Same goes for calcite flows, though not, seemingly, for sand.

Graham

[Therion] Therion Digest, Vol 96, Issue 6

[Graham Mullan]

> Bruce wrote
>  
> PS - I see two Notepad++ users - is that coincidence because it is good
software? Or because of the entry in the Therion wiki?
>  
In my case, I was introduced to it for coding html. It's brilliant for that.

But, yes, this is now OT

Graham

[Therion] Therion et al on Win 7 or 8.1 (Wookey)

[Graham Mullan]

Wookey wrote:
I shall just point out that world's best-maintained cave-surveying operating
system is (IMHO) Debian, so if you have to change OS you should at least
consider that one.


If cave surveying was all that I did, I would, but it isn't, so I can't.

Graham

[Therion] Therion et al on Win 7 or 8.1

[Graham Mullan]

I have been running Notepad++, Therion, Survex, PocketTopo, Topparser and
Adobe pdf readers on W7 for several years.

The only problems I have had are with Aven & that's down to that program not
W7. I have never had a problem with Xtherion not recognising thconfig files
without a name extension. 

I have run all of them under W8 as well, without issues, but haven't done so
since the W8.1 free upgrade happened last week, so I'll not comment on that.

Graham

[Therion] FW: Colouring by altitude

[Graham Mullan]

Olly and Marco are right, of course, that consistent colouring between plan
and elevation does help in visualising the correspondemce between different
parts of the cave. This does not *need* to be by elevation (although that
can sometimes be useful) and indeed that might even cause confusion where
separate parts of the cave are at the same elevation.

We colour by map, which is a reasonable proxy for doing so by passage. The
problem is that there is not, as far as I am aware, any method of directly
choosing the colours, as Therion does that for you. That makes it important
to list individual components the same way in both plan and elevation and
that is not always possible.

The best answer would be to allow colour choice, so that the individual
draughtsman can choose exactly how he wishes to display his drawing.

I, of course, have no idea at all as to how easy it would be to implement
this.

Graham

[Therion] Colouring by altitude

[Graham Mullan]

Olly and Marco are right, of course, that consistent colouring between plan
and elevation does help in visualising the correspondemce between different
parts of the cave. This does not *need* to be by elevation (although that
can sometimes be useful) and indeed that might even cause confusion where
separate parts of the cave are at the same elevation.

We colour by map, which is a reasonable proxy for doing so by passage. The
problem is that there is not, as far as I am aware, any method of directly
choosing the colours, as Therion does that for you. That makes it important
to list individual components the same way in both plan and elevation and
that is not always possible.

The best answer would be to allow colour choice, so that the individual
draughtsman can choose exactly how he wishes to display his drawing.

I, of course, have no idea at all as to how easy it would be to implement
this.

Graham

[Therion] Therion 5.3.11 fails compile in Loch

[Graham Mullan]

Sometimes I wonder why all the geeky types complain about Windows ;-)

Graham

[Therion] Annoying joins

[Graham Mullan]

Thanks guys, I guess that advice translates as "RTFM!" However, I note
that the specific ID seems to relate to a line rather than to a single
line point. When I add these in and write my joins accordingly, the
problem is not resolved, the output merely becomes differently wrong.
Experience would suggest that a line, somewhere is the wrong way round,
but I've checked them all, to no avail.

Is there a way of attributing an ID to a line point rather than a whole
line?

Or am I still missing something basic.

Graham
--
graham.mullan at coly.org.uk

In the UK 0117 9502556 or 07887 637064
France from the UK 0844 2327803
In France 05 53 51 19 15 or 06 02 53 37 81

[Therion] Annoying joins

[Graham Mullan]

Thanks to a way that a survey was carried out, I have a junction between
a scarp in one survey and two scraps in another. No matter which way i
try to sort the joins, nonsense results. Is there a more specific way of
joining lines that just specifying scraps?

Graham
--
graham.mullan at coly.org.uk

In the UK 0117 9502556 or 07887 637064
France from the UK 0844 2327803
In France 05 53 51 19 15 or 06 02 53 37 81

[Therion] TopParser

[Graham Mullan]

Bruce

Apologies if the instructions don't make full sense. I wrote them as a 
user, having had the program tried out on me by Andrew.

The 'input' folder is simply that, it's where the Pocket Topo file that 
you want to use currently resides. In our usage, it tends to be the 
folder on the SD card taken from the PDA and put into the PC.

The output folder is where you want the files to go, within the files 
structure that you have created for your project.

If that makes sense, or doesn't, let us know & I will clarig=fy the 
instructions accordingly.

Graham

[Therion] Options for converting splays in my Cave Converter tool

[Graham Mullan]

I agree with Andrew and Martin. Splays are a different - and in my view 
more useful - form of data from LRUD. Keep them as splays.

One or twice (in Therion) I have needed to convert a splay to a leg, but 
that is a highly selective process and not for a conversion tool.

Graham
--
graham.mullan at coly.org.uk

[Therion] Therion Digest, Vol 90, Issue 9

[Graham Mullan]

Footleg said:

> what difference in water
> levels could be expected between the upstream and downstream ends of
> the sump?

and Wookey responded:

> This is a question for hydrologists, not cave surveyors :-)

Wookey is wrong. Without the data from survey and from geodesics the
hydrologist would have no way of knowing the facts of this.

In science, observation comes first :-)

Graham
--
graham.mullan at coly.org.uk

0117 9502556 or 07887 637064 (or 0844 2327803)

[Therion] Possible bug in elevation xvi (Dave Clucas)

[Graham Mullan]

Is the problem just in the xvi file? Does your data generate a proper 
looking 3d file and/or lox file?

Graham
--
graham.mullan at coly.org.uk

0117 9502556 or 07887 637064 (or 0844 2327803)

[Therion] Therion (software) page deleted from Wikipedia

[Graham Mullan]

The simple answer to this Martin, is that you need to understand that 
wikipedia is administered by lunatics. Sad but true.

Graham
--
graham.mullan at coly.org.uk

0117 9502556 or 07887 637064 (or 0844 2327803)

On 25/04/2013 11:00, therion-request at speleo.sk wrote:
> Send Therion mailing list submissions to
>   therion at speleo.sk
>
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>   http://mailman.speleo.sk/mailman/listinfo/therion
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>   therion-request at speleo.sk
>
> You can reach the person managing the list at
>   therion-owner at speleo.sk
>
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of Therion digest..."
>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Therion (software) page deleted from Wikipedia (Martin Sluka)
> 2. Re: Therion (software) page deleted from Wikipedia
>(Stelios Zacharias)
>
>
> --
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2013 22:49:25 +0200
> From: Martin Sluka 
> Subject: [Therion] Therion (software) page deleted from Wikipedia
> To: List for Therion users 
> Message-ID: <5F9A38DC-3670-45FF-B286-2BB879482FFC at mac.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
>>From absolutely idiotic reasons the Therion (software)  page was deleted from 
>>Wikipedia.
>
> links:
>
> 23:17, 1 March 2013 Secret (talk | contribs) deleted page Therion (software) 
> (Expired PROD, concern was: No evidence of satisfying the notability 
> guidelines. Several of the references don't mention Therion, and only one 
> does more than briefly mention it.)
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:PROD
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Msluka
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Msluka
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Secret - read this page he/she is retired 
> now!!
>
> Do you know any way to undelete it?
>
> I really don't believe something as this is possible. If you will read the 
> history of that page you'll find the very strong press to remove any meaning 
> about therion (software) from wikipedia from the beginning. Way?
>
> I'm absolutely sure the "No evidence of satisfying the notability guidelines. 
> Several of the references don't mention Therion, and only one does more than 
> briefly mention it."  is incorrect from first to last word!
>
> Martin
>
>
>
>
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> Message: 2
> Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2013 10:39:04 +0300
> From: Stelios Zacharias 
> Subject: Re: [Therion] Therion (software) page deleted from Wikipedia
> To: List for Therion users 
> Message-ID: <5178DD98.7000505 at selas.org>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; Format="flowed"
>
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_undeletion
>
>
> On 24/04/2013 23:49, Martin Sluka wrote:
>>  From absolutely idiotic reasons the Therion (software)  page was
>> deleted from Wikipedia.
>>
>> links:
>>
>> 23:17, 1 March 2013 Secret
>> (talk
>>  | contribs
>> ) deleted
>> page Therion (software)
>> (Expired
>> PROD , concern was: No
>> evidence of satisfying the notability guidelines. Several of the
>> references don't mention Therion, and only one does more than briefly
>> mention it.)
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:PROD
>>
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Msluka
>>
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Msluka
>>
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Secret - read this page he/she is
>> retired now!!
>>
>> Do you know any way to undelete it?
>>
>> I really don't believe something as this is possible. If you will read
>> the history of that page you'll find the very strong press to remove
>> any meaning about therion (software) from wikipedia from the
>> beginning. Way?
>>
>> I'm absolutely sure the "/No evidence of satisfying the notability
>> guidelines. Several of the references don't mention Therion, and only
>> one does more than briefly mention it." /is incorrect from first to
>> last word!
>>
>> Martin
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ___
>> Therion mailing list
>> Therion at speleo.sk
>> http://mailman.speleo.sk/mailman/listinfo/therion
>
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> ___
> Therion mailing l

[Therion] Fonts

[Graham Mullan]

What, exactly, is the font that Therion uses when producing pdfs? It
isn't Arial, although it is quite close.

Graham

[Therion] Line widths in pdf

[Graham Mullan]

Bruce

Thank you that was the right piece of code. You have to play with the
figures to get the relevant thickness for any given image. I ended up
with def PenA = pencircle scaled (u/4) enddef and with all the other
lines altered to (u/4) as well. There seems to be a lower limit, so if
you try to make the lines too small nothing changes, but making them
thicker certainly works.

Graham

[Therion] Line widths in pdf

[Graham Mullan]

Is it possible to control the line thicknesses in pdf files? When I
export my pdf as an image file into publishing software, the lines are
much too thin. I have played with scaling but it seems not to make much
difference

Graham
--
graham.mullan at coly.org.uk

0117 9502556 or 07887 637064 (or 0844 2327803)

[Therion] PDF generation

[Graham Mullan]

I am having one of our surveys printed professionally as an A1 poster 
and a couple of issues have arisen that it is worth users being aware 
of. One is that the printer's software had a problem faithfully 
reproduced some fill areas, mostly stal flow. They solved it but it is 
worth keeping an eye out for this as some small areas might easily be 
missed.

The second is the lack of control over colour - not the usual problem of 
being able to control which colours it uses if asked to colour the whole 
survey - which I believe is being looked at - but the seeming fact that 
the output will be coloured RGB when printers require CMYK. I know that 
Acrobat Distiller can deal with this and generate appropriate files, but 
I cannot see a way of doing this in Therion.


Graham

[Therion] Tricks for drawing boulders on sand area without sand inside, the boulders?

[Graham Mullan]

Certainly when I have done that, or similarly drawn boulders within a 
sump, the only way to avoid the sand appearing where it shouldn't is to 
define the line around the boulder as part of the fill boundary.

Graham
--
graham.mullan at coly.org.uk

0117 9502556 or 07887 637064 (or 0844 2327803)

On 09/01/2013 13:24, therion-request at speleo.sk wrote:
> Send Therion mailing list submissions to
>   therion at speleo.sk
>
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>   http://mailman.speleo.sk/mailman/listinfo/therion
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>   therion-request at speleo.sk
>
> You can reach the person managing the list at
>   therion-owner at speleo.sk
>
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of Therion digest..."
>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Tricks for drawing boulders on sand area without sand  inside
>the boulders? (Footleg)
>
>
> --
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2013 13:29:07 +
> From: Footleg 
> Subject: [Therion] Tricks for drawing boulders on sand area without
>   sandinside the boulders?
> To: List for Therion users 
> Message-ID:
>   
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> I am wondering if I am missing a trick here. I am trying to draw some
> boulders in specific positions in an area of sand. The boulders are
> drawn with rock-edge line type (is that correct?). But as you can see
> on the PDF, the sand area fill puts sand inside the boulders. Is there
> an easy way to avoid this? Or do I have to carefully define my fill
> area around the outsides of the boulders only?
>
> Footleg
> -- next part --
> A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
> Name: sand fill around boulders.png
> Type: image/png
> Size: 26381 bytes
> Desc: not available
> URL: 
> 
>
> --
>
> ___
> Therion mailing list
> Therion at speleo.sk
> http://mailman.speleo.sk/mailman/listinfo/therion
>
>
> End of Therion Digest, Vol 85, Issue 14
> ***
>

[Therion] export of dxf data

[Graham Mullan]

As mentioned earlier, I have given a dxf file to someone to see how it 
imported in their CAD system. It comes into their system OK, but seems 
to have lost the correct grid co-ordinates, in this case OSGB: ST in 
doing so. Does anyone else have any experience of this?


Graham
--
graham.mullan at coly.org.uk

0117 9502556 or 07887 637064 (or 0844 2327803)

[Therion] My cave is on the middle of the sea on google maps ...

[Graham Mullan]

Hi Laurent

For one cave in the Dordogne, I used cs UTM31

The co-ordinates to fix the entrance were then read off from a UTM grid 
overlay on the digital (CD) version of the IGN map

You may find this site helps http://www.geoportail.gouv.fr/accueil, 
though I seem to only be getting lat-Long or Lambert co-ordinates at 
present, not UTM

Graham
--
graham.mullan at coly.org.uk

[Therion] Cave length discrepancy

[Graham Mullan]

Update

it looks like our cave length problem was down to a couple of small
segments being left off the map as they hadn't been drawn onto the plan.
In our defence, that's as they are near vertical blind pits that had
been surveyed separately to the bit of cave above them.

Graham

[Therion] Cave length discrepancy

[Graham Mullan]

When generating a pdf for one cave, the automatic title reports a
slightly shorter length than that reported by X-therion. Has anyone else
had this?

Graham

[Therion] Splays in pdf plans (Andrew Atkinson)

[Graham Mullan]

In a message, Andrew wrote:

 > I hope this can be done with symbol-show, but cannot fine what to put
 > after can anyone help
 >
 > Andrew

and Bruce replied:

 > Andrew
 >
 > Not sure what your question is.
 > If you include the survey centreline in a map definition, then splay 
shots
 > and regular shots are plotted by default.
 >
 > Bruce

Bruce, no, in every plot I've generated or seen only the regular shots 
get included in the pdf, never the splays, so if Andrew is right and 
they can be included then this will surely need an additional command.

Graham

[Therion] clashing areas

[Graham Mullan]

How do I get to show boulders or debris on the floor of a sump? Whether 
I put the debris area before or after the sump area, the rocks remain 
hidden by the water. In the end I hand drew some big boulders, after the 
water, which now are visible but also appear not to be wet.

Graham

[Therion] LRUD data

[Graham Mullan]

> From: McLendonJP at aol.com

> Also, I experimented with using "walls on" to see if it would get
>Therion
> to use the LRUD data to determine depth. It didn't, but I found  that
> Therion is reading my LRUD data as meters instead of feet. I use the
>command
> "units length feet" before the data but seems to only work for the >tape
> measurement. Am I missing something?

Can I assume that you have separate blocks of data for the centreline
and the LRUD? If so then you need to enter the "units length feet" line
again after the "data dimensions station left right up down" line.

Alternatively just take all your measurements in metres ;-)

You are right, however, that Therion determines depth by the difference
between the highest and lowest stations. It is difficult to see how else
it would work. It is a trivial matter to mark your highest and lowest
points as stations.

Graham
> 
> 
> Today's Topics:
> 
>1. Incorrect depth generated for legend (McLendonJP at aol.com)
>2. Re: Incorrect depth generated for legend (Olly Betts)
>3. Re: Incorrect depth generated for legend (Bruce)
> 
> 
> --
> 
> Message: 1
> Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2012 17:06:50 -0400 (EDT)
> From: McLendonJP at aol.com
> Subject: [Therion] Incorrect depth generated for legend
> To: Therion at speleo.sk
> Message-ID: <1fbcc.371cc17a.3d1b7e6a at aol.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
> 
> I recently used Therion to produce a map for a short horizontal cave. The  
> cave is only a little over 100' long and the floor is almost level from one 
> end  to the other. The "depth" information that Therion generated for the 
> legend is 3  feet even though some of the passage in the cave is 5 feet high. 
> I'm assuming  that therion uses the vertical difference between the highest 
> station and the  lowest station to generate the depth number without regard 
> to LRUD data, is  this correct? And does anybody have a suggestion for how I 
> can easily  get the correct depth output onto my map? I can see how this 
> could be a  significant issue if you had a cave with little vertical extent 
> except for a  high dome. You would have to shoot a shot to a station at the 
> top of the dome to  capture it's vertical extent in the legend data.
>  
> Also, I experimented with using "walls on" to see if it would get  Therion 
> to use the LRUD data to determine depth. It didn't, but I found  that 
> Therion is reading my LRUD data as meters instead of feet. I use the  command 
> "units length feet" before the data but seems to only work for the tape  
> measurement. Am I missing something?
>  
> Sorry if these questions are a little basic, but I've still got a lot to  
> learn about Therion. 
>  
> Much thanks,
> JP McLendon
>  
>  
> -- next part --
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> URL: 
> 
> 
> --
> 
> Message: 2
> Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2012 00:10:42 +0100
> From: Olly Betts 
> Subject: Re: [Therion] Incorrect depth generated for legend
> To: McLendonJP at aol.com
> Cc: Therion at speleo.sk
> Message-ID: <20120626231042.GM21560 at survex.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
> 
> On Tue, Jun 26, 2012 at 05:06:50PM -0400, McLendonJP at aol.com wrote:
>> Therion is reading my LRUD data as meters instead of feet. I use the command
>> "units length feet" before the data but seems to only work for the tape
>> measurement. Am I missing something?
> 
> The therion book doesn't seem to explicitly include these in the list of
> valid quantities, but the syntax comes from Survex so this should work:
> 
> units left right up down feet
> 
> Cheers,
> Olly
> 
> 
> --
> 
> Message: 3
> Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2012 18:09:39 +1200
> From: Bruce 
> Subject: Re: [Therion] Incorrect depth generated for legend
> To: 'List for Therion users' 
> Message-ID: <6FA0C0A3E79A4D7F920D3CF3BE25F5AD at JUICEBRAIN>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
> 
>> I'm assuming that therion uses the vertical difference between the highest
> station and the lowest station to generate the depth number without regard
> to LRUD data, is this correct? 
> 
> Yes.
> 
>  
> 
>> And does anybody have a suggestion for how I can easily get the correct
> depth output onto my map? 
> 
> You can add some tex code to a layout.   See
> http://therion.speleo.sk/wiki/doku.php?id=tex#overriding_data_supplied_by_th
> erion_map_headers
> 
> Eg
> 
>   code tex-map
>   \cavedepth{300\thinspace{}ft}  %forcing reported depth to 300 ft
>   endcode
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
>> I can see how this could be a significant issue if you had a cave with
> little vertical extent except for a high dome. You would have to shoot a
> shot to a station at the top of the dome to capture it's vertical extent in
> the legend data.
> 
> That would avoid the need to manua

[Therion] "missing" surface leg

[Graham Mullan]

I have a survey that consists of two short sections of passage leading 
from each side of a small closed depression.

The caves are linked by a surface leg across the depression. This leg is 
flagged as surface. On the 3d file that seems fine, but on the lox file 
the image shows a defined passage where the surface leg should be.

Graham

[Therion] Therion Digest, Vol 78, Issue 10

[Graham Mullan]

Thanks, Laura

I shall do that.

Graham
--
graham.mullan at coly.org.uk

0117 9502556 or 07887 637064 (or 0844 2327803)

On 14/06/2012 11:00, therion-request at speleo.sk wrote:
> Send Therion mailing list submissions to
>   therion at speleo.sk
>
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>   http://mailman.speleo.sk/mailman/listinfo/therion
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>   therion-request at speleo.sk
>
> You can reach the person managing the list at
>   therion-owner at speleo.sk
>
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of Therion digest..."
>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Training Course Guide for Therion from the UK Cave Surveying
>Group (Footleg)
> 2. Re: Training Course Guide for Therion from the UK Cave
>Surveying Group (Andrew Atkinson)
> 3. Missing data (Graham Mullan)
> 4. Re: Training Course Guide for Therion from the UK
>CaveSurveying Group (Bruce)
> 5. Re: Training Course Guide for Therion from the UK  Cave
>Surveying Group (Sluka Martin)
> 6. Re: Training Course Guide for Therion from the UK
>CaveSurveying Group (Bruce)
> 7. Re: Training Course Guide for Therion from the UK
>CaveSurveying Group (Andrew Atkinson)
>
>
> --
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 14:33:41 +0100
> From: Footleg
> Subject: [Therion] Training Course Guide for Therion from the UK Cave
>   Surveying Group
> To: List for Therion users
> Message-ID:
>   
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> Over the past couple of years the UK based Cave Surveying Group (CSG)
> have run a number of training courses to teach DistoX Paperless
> surveying and drawing up with Therion. I have now written the first
> draft of a training guide based on the data gathered on one of these
> courses. The CSG also have a new website where we are starting to
> publish online. The CSG homepage is http://cp.cavesurveying.org.uk/
>
> The training course and example data can be found here:
> http://cp.cavesurveying.org.uk/index.php/articles/3-therion-tutorial
>
> I would welcome any feedback on the content of the tutorial as it is
> an on going project to improve the content to cover more features of
> Therion, and to correct any mistakes in the parts I have written so
> far.
>
> Perhaps someone with wiki editing permissions could add a link to this
> training material to the therion wiki too?
>
> Footleg
>
>
> --
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 14:45:35 +0100
> From: Andrew Atkinson
> Subject: Re: [Therion] Training Course Guide for Therion from the UK
>   Cave Surveying Group
> To: List for Therion users
> Message-ID:<4FD8997F.5070707 at wotcc.org.uk>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
>
>
> On 13/06/12 14:33, Footleg wrote:
>> Perhaps someone with wiki editing permissions could add a link to this
>> training material to the therion wiki too?
>
>
> Done http://therion.speleo.sk/wiki/doku.php?id=start
>
> Andrew
>
>
> --
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 18:46:15 +0100
> From: Graham Mullan
> Subject: [Therion] Missing data
> To: List for Therion users
> Message-ID:<4FD8D1E7.1020604 at coly.org.uk>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
> I am still dealing with a lot of legacy data from the 1950s and 1960s
> where clinos were not used.
>
> Using Survex this is not a problem, as I just enter the data after a line:
>
> data normal from to compass tape ignoreall
>
> and the program will run.
>
> In Therion, however, the same circumstance gives the error message:
>
> -- not all data for given style
>
> This is a problem as it would require me to enter a series of zeros,
> which does not equate to reality. In some caves, the altitudes are
> constrained by the use of fixed points, at multiple entrances, which
> allows for this data lack. In Therion I am not so sure how this will work.
>
> Graham
>
>
> --
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2012 08:37:26 +1200
> From: Bruce
> Subject: Re: [Therion] Training Course Guide for Therion from the UK
>   CaveSurveying Group
> To: 'List for Therion users'
> Message-ID:
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> That is looking great Footleg.  Clear and concise documentation with  
> non-essential stuff stripped away. Fantastic!
>

[Therion] Missing data

[Graham Mullan]

I am still dealing with a lot of legacy data from the 1950s and 1960s 
where clinos were not used.

Using Survex this is not a problem, as I just enter the data after a line:

data normal from to compass tape ignoreall

and the program will run.

In Therion, however, the same circumstance gives the error message:

-- not all data for given style

This is a problem as it would require me to enter a series of zeros, 
which does not equate to reality. In some caves, the altitudes are 
constrained by the use of fixed points, at multiple entrances, which 
allows for this data lack. In Therion I am not so sure how this will work.

Graham

[Therion] cs OSGB options

[Graham Mullan]

On Sun, 20 Nov 2011 17:35:59, John Stevens wrote:

>
> I have had problems with this command if I am not working in areas ST or SN. 
> (Mendip , west part of South Wales.)
>
> using cs OSGB:SO  # (east part of South Wales)
>
> I get error ;-
>
> therion 5.3.9
> initialization file: C:\Program Files (x86)\Therion/therion.ini
> reading ... done
> configuration file: thconfig
> reading ... done
> reading source files ...
> C:\Program Files (x86)\Therion\therion.exe: error -- gelynnen.th [10] -- 
> unknown coordinate system -- OSGB:SO
> writing xtherion file ... done
>
> It runs 100km out if changed to cs OSGBT  (read  ST)
> or correctly positioned if using  cs EPSG:27700 -calibrate [0 0 0 30 
> 20 0]
>
> other 100km grids not working but checked, SV SU SS SM SO SP  (SD SE NY NZ - 
> Dales)
>
> Cheers
>
> John S

That's 'cos ST was requested and by Andrew and included in the following 
update & SN was requested by me. No other OSGB areas have been included, 
as yet.

[Therion] Problem with diving data

[Graham Mullan]

I can understand why Therion wouldn't 'like' diving data with zero 
length legs, but that is bye the bye.

If you list LRUD data separately from centre line data with the heading 
of, say:

data dimensions station left right up down

then you should get everything in the correct place.

Graham

[Therion] Offset legs in diving data

[Graham Mullan]

I now have the LRUD working in Therion, having worked out the subtle 
differences between Survex and Therion syntax. The file compiles Ok and 
generates a nice loch file. However, I cannot find how to export the XVI 
format for loading into the th2 file. There seems to be no export option.

Graham

[Therion] Offset legs in diving data

[Graham Mullan]

I have some diving data, in the form

data diving from fromdepth to todepth compass tape

LRUD data has also been collected for these sumps. I would like to be 
able to display the latter as offset legs in the th2 file to aid in 
drawing the map. How does it need to be entered into a th file and how 
do I then generate a background for th2, as is down with DistoX data?

Graham

[Therion] Generated PDF compliant to spec

[Graham Mullan]

PDFs generated by me from Therion 5.3.8 are reported by Acrobat as being 
pdf version 1.5, that is compatible with Acrobat 6 and above.

I'm afraid I don't know Ghostscript, but Acrobat will export as jpg.

Graham
--

[Therion] Bug in 5.3.7

[Graham Mullan]

As requested. I have tried the Windows build of Therion 5.3.8 and the 
problem that I had has vanished. the whole cave now compiles including 
the survex 3d file imported bit.

Thanks

Graham

[Therion] Therion Digest, Vol 66, Issue 6

[Graham Mullan]

> From: Stacho Mudrak
>
> Well, this is not an error, it is just warning caused by new triangulation
> algorithm for 3D model generation.
>
> Some of these warnings will be probably removed in the near future, when
> this algorithm will be finished.
>
> If your 3D model looks OK, you can ignore these warnings.
>
But the model does not look OK, the bit imported as a 3d file is missing 
completely.

Graham

[Therion] Therion bug

[Graham Mullan]

Sorry, yes. Windows build

The errors seem to be.

writing Goughsth.3d ... done
writing Goughs.lox ..
C:\Program Files (x86)\Therion\therion.exe: warning -- 
BlackcatSPl3 at Blackcat.Goughs -- invalid scrap outline
.
C:\Program Files (x86)\Therion\therion.exe: warning -- 
FontsSPl4 at Fonts.Goughs -- multiple scrap outer outlines not supported yet

C:\Program Files (x86)\Therion\therion.exe: warning -- 
HeartbreakDigSPl1 at HeartbreakDig.Goughs -- invalid scrap outline
. done
writing xtherion file ... done
compilation time: 7 sec

I don't see what relevance that might have to the output, but then I 
don't understand these things.

Graham

[Therion] Bug in 5.3.7

[Graham Mullan]

I upgraded to 5.3.7 and hit a problem.

A file that contains both therion inputs and a 3d file import from 
Survex failed to import the latter.

Reverting to 5.3.5 has solved the problem.

Graham
--
graham.mullan at coly.org.uk

0117 9502556 or 07887 637064 (or 0844 2327803)

[Therion] A totally unreasonable request

[Graham Mullan]

I have produced a number of Therion models which are viewed using Loch. 
I have to say that I am tremendously pleased with the visualisations 
that they give.

However, we always want something more, don't we.

One of the extremely useful features is the ability to drop surface data 
and maps on top of the model, making it possible to check the relative 
positions of underground and surface features. One of the limitations of 
this, though, comes with the resolution of the surface image. (there is 
a further limitation with the resolution of the open source DTM data but 
there is nothing that we can do about that.) This is not much of a 
problem with most models but one of mine covers an area of 30 km x 30 
km. That means that any jpeg that covers the whole area will not be of a 
suitable resolution to show detail when one zooms in on smaller parts of 
the area.

What is needed is a 'Google Earth' type system whereby the jpegs can be 
'swapped' as one zooms in.

Don't tell me to generate kml files and use Google Earth, as that loses 
the 3d capability.

I'm sure we have the computing power to deal with files of the size that 
this implies. I'm also sure that it'll take a deal of fancy programming 
to implement. If I had the skills I'd give it a go. I don't, so I can 
just hope that someone with the relevant skills will take the job on.

What I can keep doing is working on the mapping agencies to release 
suitable data. I shall do that, even though I've had little luck so far.

Graham
--
graham.mullan at coly.org.uk

0117 9502556 or 07887 637064 (or 0844 2327803)

[Therion] Compatibility with Survex

[Graham Mullan]

I made a comment recently about compatibility with the most recent 
version of Survex, so that I didn't need to change between versions of 
the latter when viewing 3d files generated with either Survex or 
Therion. This was to be takien on board with the next development 
snapshot. I see this morning that Olly has uploaded Survex 1.1.16. Aven 
seems smoother in use on this. Could this be borne in mind when the next 
Therion snapshot is produced?

Many thanks

Graham

[Therion] Importing Survex files

[Graham Mullan]

Owing to some features of my dataset, including, as I have flagged up 
before the fact that Therion is not as flexible as Survex when it comes 
to data entry, in that it requires a clino column even when the data has 
not been collected, I am still having to import some survex 3d files 
into my model.

I also use Survex to view other people's models. This data has been 
compiled in Survex 1.1.15 as it includes passage dimension data. The 
problem is that 3d files compiled using 1.1.15 instead of 1.0.39 will 
not import into Therion.

Is there some way that this can be dealt with so that I don't have to 
keep installing/uninstalling versions of Survex?

Graham

[Therion] UTM 30 N

[Graham Mullan]

For Spain, try using EPSG 23030 for your cs

see http://spatialreference.org/ref/epsg/23030/

Graham
--
graham.mullan at coly.org.uk

0117 9502556 or 07887 637064 (or 0844 2327803)

On 26/03/2011 11:00, therion-request at speleo.sk wrote:
> Send Therion mailing list submissions to
>   therion at speleo.sk
>
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>   http://mailman.speleo.sk/mailman/listinfo/therion
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>   therion-request at speleo.sk
>
> You can reach the person managing the list at
>   therion-owner at speleo.sk
>
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of Therion digest..."
>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Support for UTM European 1979 Datum (Footleg)
>
>
> --
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2011 14:13:54 +
> From: Footleg
> Subject: [Therion] Support for UTM European 1979 Datum
> To: List for Therion users
> Message-ID:
>   
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> I'm making good progress now on learning how to generate various output from
> Therion, and have started on generating KML plan maps for google earth. My
> problem is that my survey data is coming from survex .3d files which I am
> importing. I am working with data for many hundreds of caves, and they are
> all fixed using UTM with the European 1979 Datum because that is the
> coordinate system of the expedition area maps we have had for the past few
> decades. As far as I can tell, this datum is not included in Therion at the
> moment. I've checked the epsg file in the source. I specifically need the
> UTM30N zone as all our caves using this coordinate system are in that zone.
> Is this something which can be added please?
>
> Footleg
> -- next part --
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> URL:
>
> --
>
> ___
> Therion mailing list
> Therion at speleo.sk
> http://mailman.speleo.sk/mailman/listinfo/therion
>
>
> End of Therion Digest, Vol 63, Issue 16
> ***
>

[Therion] grid alignment rotation

[Graham Mullan]

Ben

We've had similar problems, notably with some of Willie's data where he 
applied a correction that encompassed both compass error and 
declination. The result suggested was to insert a line

declination 0 degree

which zero's the declination correction. One can then add a line such as

calibrate compass +11.5

in our circumstances, not needed in yours where the alignment with grid 
north has already been made.

As far as UFS is concerned, it's also worth noting that Therion 
recognises the local grid so you can use

cs: OSGB:ST

Graham

[Therion] viewing files on a mac

[Graham Mullan]

I have had two people complain to me recently that they cannot read lox 
files (or indeed survex 3d files) on their macs.

I know that macs are poorly supported and, of course, all serious users 
should be on linux, or at worst Windows, but would it be possible to 
produce a browser plugin so that these poor benighted Apple fanboys can 
at least view the work of others even if they cannot contribute?

Graham

---

graham.mullan at coly.org.uk

0117 9502556 or 07887 637064 (or try 0844 2327803)

[Therion] Irish Grid coordinates

[Graham Mullan]

I am starting the tedious process of migrating a large dataset from 
Survex to Therion. Now would therefore seem the right time to start 
converting the co-ordinate system that is used.

The data is for Co. Clare in Ireland and previously all entrances and 
fixed points were listed in Irish Grid. The Irish are changing this to 
ITM (Irish Transverse Mercator) and I would like this to be the system 
that we use as it is what will appear on their maps etc. I am assuming 
that it is not supported by Therion. I cannot find an EPSG number that 
specifically relates to this. The IOS website talks about their system 
being compatible with ETRF89, for Europe but that is the nearest 
indication I get.

Can anyone tell me what the correct EPSG number might be or is it 
possible for ITM to be built into Therion as an option?

Graham

---

graham.mullan at coly.org.uk

0117 9502556 or 07887 637064 (or try 0844 2327803)

[Therion] incomplete data sets

[Graham Mullan]

I have begun the arduous task of converting a large data set (60 km+ of 
passage) from Survex to Therion in line with the rest of the data that 
we keep. Much of this is quite old, 1950s and 1960s.

In many cases we do not have clino data and, in Survex, I have either 
ignored this fact or have manipulated the data by inserting fixes 
including altitudes at known points, usually entrances. This would skew 
the model to give a reasonable approximation of its 3d shape.

I discover that Therion will not simply ignore the lack of clino 
readings but tells me that there is

"not all data for given style"

if I have put in this line

"data normal from to length bearing ignoreall"

This concerns me on two fronts: firstly does it mean that I have to go 
back in and type an arbitrary list of zeros at the end of each data 
line? Secondly, when it processes the cave does this mean that the 
process will give due meaning to all those zeros and adjust the model 
differently to how it would do so if they were not there (as in Survex)?

Graham

[Therion] Diving data bug

[Graham Mullan]

We have some diving data which, unusually, will be part of a closed 
loop. I therefore wished to put some parameters in to define the 
accuracy of that data. I put in some lines using the sd command and it 
accepted the "compass" parameters OK, but refuse the "fromdepth" and 
"todepth" ones despite those particular parameters appearing and being 
accepted by the data line.

Any ideas?

Graham

[Therion] displaying models in a browser

[Graham Mullan]

Someone on UKcaving asked about displaying 3d models on the web, as 
opposed to making them available as downloads.

Andrew immediately suggested generating vrml files and I see that 
Therion "appears" to be able to generate these. However, I cannot find a 
Firefox plugin that will display these, or X3D files.

Has anyone else thought about this issue? It would be good to be able to 
display and manipulate models directly in a browser window.

Graham

[Therion] BAC calculator

[Graham Mullan]

This appears in the Therion help dropdown menu.

What is it for?

Graham

[Therion] Therion Digest, Vol 59, Issue 17

[Graham Mullan]

Graham
--
graham.mullan at coly.org.uk

0117 9502556 or 07887 637064 (or 0844 2327803)

On 16/11/2010 11:00, therion-request at speleo.sk wrote:
> Send Therion mailing list submissions to
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>
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> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
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>
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>
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of Therion digest..."
>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Source and Select (Bruce)
>
>
> --
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2010 22:08:50 +1300
> From: "Bruce"
> Subject: [Therion] Source and Select
> To: "'List for Therion users'"
> Message-ID:<8D8CD5FCB02E447CADDD297FA721A23D at JUICEBRAIN>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> My reading of the Therion Book suggests to me;
>
>
>
> -  that 'source' specifies the files that Therion should read and
> process before deciding what to export.   The source files should contain or
> reference surveys and or a surface.
>
>
>
> -  that 'select' chooses which survey(s) and or map(s) from the
> above files to export.  If there is no 'select' statement then 'all' are
> exported.
>
>
>
> My interpretation #1 is that this should allow all the surveys of a large
> (or modest) system of cave passages to be referenced by way of 'source' so
> that all the survey loop and scrap join distortions can be processed BEFORE
> Therion decides what to export.  This is what seems to occur.  So far, so
> good.
>
>
>
> My interpretation #2 is that when a map or maps for any particular
> projection is 'selected' then ONLY the data that relates to those maps
> should be exported.  This is what seems to happen for Map outputs (pdf and
> ?kml) and Atlas outputs.
>
>
>
> I have some difficulty and confusion with outputs that don't have a
> projection, such as the lists, 3d outputs and database.  What seems to
> happen is that regardless of the 'selected' maps, all of the 'sourced' data
> is exported to this type of output.
>
>
>
> What I would like is that only the data related to the 'selected' maps are
> exported.  This way all subset outputs can be consistent (same loop closure
> distortions applied), and separately exported.
>
>
>
> In writing this out I suspect I may have realised the answer to my question
> (but not yet tested it).  Perhaps what I need to do is 'select' survey(s)
> that encompass the same part of the cave as the maps?
>
>
>
> Any insights or clarifications gratefully received.
>
>
>
> Bruce
>
>
>
>
>
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>
> End of Therion Digest, Vol 59, Issue 17
> ***
>

[Therion] Multiple surfaces in Loch

[Graham Mullan]

Further to the discussion about this I have just tried, to see what 
would happen, generating a lox file using one set of DEM data but two 
separate map images that cover different parts of the area.

Only the second one gets picked up in the generated lox file, not both. 
Oh well.

Graham
--
graham.mullan at coly.org.uk

0117 9502556 or 07887 637064 (or 0844 2327803)

[Therion] Multiple surfaces in loch

[Graham Mullan]

I agree with everybody else; that would be brilliant.

Graham

[Therion] XYZ co-ordinates and other things.

[Graham Mullan]

Survex will generate a list of XYZ co-ordinates from a 3d file, so you 
"could" generate a 3d file from Therion and then run it back through 
Survex using the "convert for hand plotting option".

For historical reasons, amongst others much of our data is in Survex 
format and is imported into Therion as 3d files. The Survex viewer, 
Aven, does have some capabilities that Lox does not, such as a simple 
method of measuring the distance between points and a direct read off of 
co-ordinates. Latest versions also have useful features such as "colour 
by date" and "colour by error" which I would like to see in Lox.

One current problem is that 3d files generated with the most recent 
development snapshots of Survex, to version 1.1.15 are not recognised by 
Therion 5.3.4. Does this happen with 5.3.5?

Graham

[Therion] Magnetic deviation corrections

[Graham Mullan]

Therion appears to correct for mag deviation automatically, based on the 
date that a survey was carried out. is it possible to turn this feature 
off within specific surveys? I have much legacy data where either the 
relevant correction has already been applied or where they have recorded 
a "compass correction" which includes both instrument error and mag 
deviation in one figure.

Graham
--
graham.mullan at coly.org.uk

0117 9502556 or 07887 637064 (or 0844 2327803)

[Therion] Co-ordinate systems

[Graham Mullan]

Thank you for the OSGB:SN Made life a lot easier. Initial result (needs 
more work) at http://www.ubss.org.uk/resources/surveys/survex/LNRC.lox

Graham

---

graham.mullan at coly.org.uk

0117 9502556 or 07887 637064 (or try 0844 2327803)

[Therion] co-ordinate systems

[Graham Mullan]

I know that, at Andrew's request, you enabled OSGB to be recognised for 
the ST area. Is there any possibility of OSGB:SN being enabled as well, 
as I am about to start building a model of a cave in that part of South 
Wales.

Graham

---

graham.mullan at coly.org.uk

0117 9502556 or 07887 637064 (or try 0844 2327803)

[Therion] "Colour by date"

[Graham Mullan]

Colour by date can sometimes be a useful tool for viewing 3d files in 
Aven, especially when viewing to different datasets for the same passage 
in parallel.

However, 3d files generated by Therion, as opposed to Survex, don't seem 
to support this feature. There does not seem to be a similar feature in 
Lox. Might it be possible to implement this at some point?

Graham

---

graham.mullan at coly.org.uk

0117 9502556 or 07887 637064 (or try 0844 2327803)

[Therion] Degrees: minutes in centreline

[Graham Mullan]

Further to Andrew's query about this, I entered some data using 
degrees:minutes and it compiled perfectly well, except that I included a 
compass correction. The correction would only work in degrees.decimal 
degrees, not in degrees minutes.

Graham
--
graham.mullan at coly.org.uk

0117 9502556 or 07887 637064 (or 0844 2327803)

[Therion] Size of image files

[Graham Mullan]

Is there a limit on the size of image files that Therion will handle, or 
is it my computer?

Importing a 20Mb png image into a Th2 file caused the program to crash 
on me, giving a little box labelled "Fatal Error in Wish" and saying 
"Fail to create pixmap with Tk_GetPixmap in ImgPhotoInstanceSetSize."

Interestingly the same image imported perfectly OK in a different 
computer, but with the same amount of RAM.

Graham

---

graham.mullan at wotcc.org.uk

0117 9502556 or 07887 637064