RE: [tips] Does College Kill Interest in Science?
To no one in particular- All these long lines and extra spaces- it's just too difficult. I give up and am becoming a humanities major. :) Seriously, I can't help but think there is an opportunity to fall back on some data. But, I don't think it's College science per se but poor teaching of science and what we are asking them to give up to study. (Really- video games are more interesting than most of our classes!). I hope we all have a great weekend and watch a little football (or read a good novel) and go back Monday and start again. It was a very long week. Tim ___ Timothy O. Shearon, PhD Professor, Department of Psychology The College of Idaho Caldwell, ID 83605 email: tshea...@collegeofidaho.edu teaching: intro to neuropsychology; psychopharmacology; general; history and systems You can't teach an old dogma new tricks. Dorothy Parker --- You are currently subscribed to tips as: arch...@jab.org. To unsubscribe click here: http://fsulist.frostburg.edu/u?id=13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df5d5n=Tl=tipso=13906 or send a blank email to leave-13906-13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df...@fsulist.frostburg.edu
Re: [tips] Does College Kill Interest in Science?
(I'm replying now with my signature line, which I usually delete, to see if that makes a difference in generating extra lines. I believe that the loss of formatting is more of a local problem, Bob ). I think you are correct, Annette, and I wonder whether in addition to earning potential, students are also chosing subjects of study in terms of evolving norms of perceived career appeal. Relative to, say 20 years ago, do careers in STEM disciplines these days have the same general appeal as their business counterparts? My sense is that they do not and that for all of the current anti-corporate sentiment (e.g., OWS), the business path might be seen as a quicker, more efficient way to a comfortable and rewarding life. But, who knows? The real reasons for these effects are probably much more complex than what we have offered so far. _ Miguel Roig, Ph.D. Professor of Psychology St. John's University 300 Howard Avenue Staten Island, New York 10301 Voice: (718) 390-4513 Fax: (718) 390-4347 E-mail: ro...@stjohns.edu http://facpub.stjohns.edu/~roigm On plagiarism and ethical writing: http://ori.dhhs.gov/education/products/plagiarism/ _ - Original Message - From: Annette Taylor tay...@sandiego.edu To: Teaching in the Psychological Sciences (TIPS) tips@fsulist.frostburg.edu Sent: Friday, November 4, 2011 10:48:36 PM Subject: RE: [tips] Does College Kill Interest in Science? You make it sound so grim; in reality, most of the science, tech and engineering jobs pay better right out of college with a BA or BS degree, than many other non-STEM jobs pay with years of additional schooling. My (soon to ex-) daughter-in-law is making as money this year as a first year grad in chemical engineering, as I am making 20+ years in my job with a PhD. Granted she was in an extremely challenging program and had to work her buns off for a BS degree, but it is still many fewer years of education and no dissertation. AND she finds her work interesting, fascinating and rewarding. Annette Annette Kujawski Taylor, Ph. D. Professor, Psychological Sciences University of San Diego 5998 Alcala Park San Diego, CA 92110 tay...@sandiego.edu From: roig-rear...@comcast.net [roig-rear...@comcast.net] Sent: Friday, November 04, 2011 3:25 PM To: Teaching in the Psychological Sciences (TIPS) Subject: Re: [tips] Does College Kill Interest in Science? I really have to wonder whether the issue lies in students' realization that the financial and personal rewards of choosing science as a career are just not worth the sacrifice. Think about it: years of doctoral and post-doctoral grueling lab work, little guarantee of a tenure-track faculty position in a research-oriented institution after graduation, decreasing societal respect for the profession. Is it any wonder that students are not going into these disciplines? Miguel - Original Message - From: Michael Britt mich...@thepsychfiles.com To: Teaching in the Psychological Sciences (TIPS) tips@fsulist.frostburg.edu Sent: Friday, November 4, 2011 3:24:05 PM Subject: Re: [tips] Does College Kill Interest in Science? Annette, Your post made me think about an episode I had been thinking about putting together on this topic of attracting students to science vs. the challenge of actually doing real science. When I taught Research Methods and Statistics for psych majors, a colleague who had a very different teaching style taught it along with me. He was quite, shall we say demanding and I wanted the students to enjoy the topic. As a result, I would guess that his students probably came out of the course having learned more, but I think mine came out of the course with a more positive attitude toward research and stats. In other words, his students might have done better on Bloom's cognitive domains, but mine would have come out higher on Bloom's affective domains. Which approach is better? I agree that actual science is hard. There's no way to water down how complex a repeated measures of anova is to carry out and analyze. I would argue that when it's your study and your idea and your hypothesis, then you'll put in the time to figure out how to calculate those complicated stats, but you first have to have a positive attitude and you have to value the scientific method. Michael Michael A. Britt, Ph.D. mich...@thepsychfiles.com http://www.ThePsychFiles.com Twitter: mbritt On Nov 4, 2011, at 3:08 PM, Annette Taylor wrote: I get a sense from this article and my own experience that in an effort to hook students, the middle and high schools water down
Re: [tips] Does College Kill Interest in Science?
Although not directly on-topic, You might have a look at this droll-yet-horrifying essay by Phil Greenspun. He argues that the reason there are so few women in science is that they are often able to see, long before their male peers, just how grim the prospects for a career in science are. It's not just that the likely income is much lower than for other with equivalent education. It is that one works for so many years for amost nothing before one actually gets started. http://philip.greenspun.com/careers/women-in-science (Caveat: I do not necessarily agree completely with every word of each thing I repost. I repost them because I think they are interesting to think about.) Chris -- Christopher D. Green Department of Psychology York University Toronto, ON M3J 1P3 Canada 416-736-2100 ex. 66164 chri...@yorku.ca http://www.yorku.ca/christo/ == On 11/4/11 10:48 PM, Annette Taylor wrote: You make it sound so grim; in reality, most of the science, tech and engineering jobs pay better right out of college with a BA or BS degree, than many other non-STEM jobs pay with years of additional schooling. My (soon to ex-) daughter-in-law is making as money this year as a first year grad in chemical engineering, as I am making 20+ years in my job with a PhD. Granted she was in an extremely challenging program and had to work her buns off for a BS degree, but it is still many fewer years of education and no dissertation. AND she finds her work interesting, fascinating and rewarding. Annette Annette Kujawski Taylor, Ph. D. Professor, Psychological Sciences University of San Diego 5998 Alcala Park San Diego, CA 92110 tay...@sandiego.edu mailto:tay...@sandiego.edu *From:* roig-rear...@comcast.net [roig-rear...@comcast.net] *Sent:* Friday, November 04, 2011 3:25 PM *To:* Teaching in the Psychological Sciences (TIPS) *Subject:* Re: [tips] Does College Kill Interest in Science? I really have to wonder whether the issue lies in students' realization that the financial and personal rewards of choosing science as a career are just not worth the sacrifice. Think about it: years of doctoral and post-doctoral grueling lab work, little guarantee of a tenure-track faculty position in a research-oriented institution after graduation, decreasing societal respect for the profession. Is it any wonder that students are not going into these disciplines? Miguel *From: *Michael Britt mich...@thepsychfiles.com *To: *Teaching in the Psychological Sciences (TIPS) tips@fsulist.frostburg.edu *Sent: *Friday, November 4, 2011 3:24:05 PM *Subject: *Re: [tips] Does College Kill Interest in Science? Annette, Your post made me think about an episode I had been thinking about putting together on this topic of attracting students to science vs. the challenge of actually doing real science. When I taught Research Methods and Statistics for psych majors, a colleague who had a very different teaching style taught it along with me. He was quite, shall we say demanding and I wanted the students to enjoy the topic. As a result, I would guess that his students probably came out of the course having learned more, but I think mine came out of the course with a more positive attitude toward research and stats. In other words, his students might have done better on Bloom's cognitive domains, but mine would have come out higher on Bloom's affective domains. Which approach is better? I agree that actual science is hard. There's no way to water down how complex a repeated measures of anova is to carry out and analyze. I would argue that when it's your study and your idea and your hypothesis, then you'll put in the time to figure out how to calculate those complicated stats, but you first have to have a positive attitude and you have to value the scientific method. Michael Michael A. Britt, Ph.D. mich...@thepsychfiles.com mailto:mich...@thepsychfiles.com http://www.ThePsychFiles.com http://www.thepsychfiles.com/ Twitter: mbritt On Nov 4, 2011, at 3:08 PM, Annette Taylor wrote: I get a sense from this article and my own experience that in an effort to hook students, the middle and high schools water down their programs. Then when faced with real science in college it's a big whoopsie with the professor taking the brunt of the students' anger at the disillusionment. Maybe the hooking needs to take place in elementary school, and real science education in middle and high school. Oh well, my speculation won't make a whit of difference. Annette Sent from my Verizon Wireless Phone Mike Palij wrote: --- You are currently subscribed to tips as:michael.br...@thepsychfiles.com mailto:michael.br...@thepsychfiles.com
RE: [tips] Does College Kill Interest in Science?
I find it sad that so many students pursue a business degree thinking of big bucks when in fact the majority of them are going to wind up as office drones in a gray cubicle and making a merely decent living. Doing science is hard, but it's *interesting*, and studying it leads to some of the more high-paying jobs we have (they are, of course, outside the academy). I wish that we could get more students to realize that life isn't about money. But in contemporary America, the only values appear to be monetary. I despair sometimes… m -- Marc Carter, PhD Associate Professor of Psychology Chair, Department of Behavioral and Health Sciences College of Arts Sciences Baker University -- From: roig-rear...@comcast.net [mailto:roig-rear...@comcast.net] Sent: Saturday, November 05, 2011 4:54 AM To: Teaching in the Psychological Sciences (TIPS) Subject: Re: [tips] Does College Kill Interest in Science? (I'm replying now with my signature line, which I usually delete, to see if that makes a difference in generating extra lines. I believe that the loss of formatting is more of a local problem, Bob). I think you are correct, Annette, and I wonder whether in addition to earning potential, students are also chosing subjects of study in terms of evolving norms of perceived career appeal. Relative to, say 20 years ago, do careers in STEM disciplines these days have the same general appeal as their business counterparts? My sense is that they do not and that for all of the current anti-corporate sentiment (e.g., OWS), the business path might be seen as a quicker, more efficient way to a comfortable and rewarding life. But, who knows? The real reasons for these effects are probably much more complex than what we have offered so far. _ Miguel Roig, Ph.D. Professor of Psychology St. John's University 300 Howard Avenue Staten Island, New York 10301 Voice: (718) 390-4513 Fax: (718) 390-4347 E-mail: ro...@stjohns.edu http://facpub.stjohns.edu/~roigm On plagiarism and ethical writing: http://ori.dhhs.gov/education/products/plagiarism/ _ The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by Baker University (BU) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify Baker University by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. --- You are currently subscribed to tips as: arch...@jab.org. To unsubscribe click here: http://fsulist.frostburg.edu/u?id=13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df5d5n=Tl=tipso=13911 or send a blank email to leave-13911-13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df...@fsulist.frostburg.edu
Re: [tips] Does College Kill Interest in Science?
Well, Marc, I fully agree. But, that won't happen until academia stops selling, promoting, and advertising a higher education simply as white collar vo-tech, higher paying job, credentialing. Make it a good day -Louis- Louis Schmier http://www.therandomthoughts.edublogs.orghttp://www.therandomthoughts.edublogs.org/ Department of History http://www.therandomthoughts.comhttp://www.therandomthoughts.com/ Valdosta State University Valdosta, Georgia 31698 /\ /\ /\ /\ /\ (O) 229-333-5947/^\\/ \/ \ /\/\__ / \ / \ (C) 229-630-0821 / \/ \_ \/ / \/ /\/ / \ /\ \ //\/\/ /\\__/__/_/\_\/ \_/__\ \ /\If you want to climb mountains,\ /\ _ / \don't practice on mole hills - / \_ On Nov 5, 2011, at 9:51 AM, Marc Carter wrote: I find it sad that so many students pursue a business degree thinking of big bucks when in fact the majority of them are going to wind up as office drones in a gray cubicle and making a merely decent living. Doing science is hard, but it's *interesting*, and studying it leads to some of the more high-paying jobs we have (they are, of course, outside the academy). I wish that we could get more students to realize that life isn't about money. But in contemporary America, the only values appear to be monetary. I despair sometimes… m -- Marc Carter, PhD Associate Professor of Psychology Chair, Department of Behavioral and Health Sciences College of Arts Sciences Baker University -- From: roig-rear...@comcast.netmailto:roig-rear...@comcast.net [mailto:roig-rear...@comcast.net] Sent: Saturday, November 05, 2011 4:54 AM To: Teaching in the Psychological Sciences (TIPS) Subject: Re: [tips] Does College Kill Interest in Science? (I'm replying now with my signature line, which I usually delete, to see if that makes a difference in generating extra lines. I believe that the loss of formatting is more of a local problem, Bob). I think you are correct, Annette, and I wonder whether in addition to earning potential, students are also chosing subjects of study in terms of evolving norms of perceived career appeal. Relative to, say 20 years ago, do careers in STEM disciplines these days have the same general appeal as their business counterparts? My sense is that they do not and that for all of the current anti-corporate sentiment (e.g., OWS), the business path might be seen as a quicker, more efficient way to a comfortable and rewarding life. But, who knows? The real reasons for these effects are probably much more complex than what we have offered so far. _ Miguel Roig, Ph.D. Professor of Psychology St. John's University 300 Howard Avenue Staten Island, New York 10301 Voice: (718) 390-4513 Fax: (718) 390-4347 E-mail: ro...@stjohns.edumailto:ro...@stjohns.edu http://facpub.stjohns.edu/~roigm On plagiarism and ethical writing: http://ori.dhhs.gov/education/products/plagiarism/ _ The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by Baker University (BU) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify Baker University by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. --- You are currently subscribed to tips as: lschm...@valdosta.edumailto:lschm...@valdosta.edu. To unsubscribe click here: http://fsulist.frostburg.edu/u?id=13368.9b8fe41d7a9a359029570f1d2ef42440n=Tl=tipso=13911 (It may be necessary to cut and paste the above URL if the line is broken) or send a blank email to leave-13911-13368.9b8fe41d7a9a359029570f1d2ef42...@fsulist.frostburg.edumailto:leave-13911-13368.9b8fe41d7a9a359029570f1d2ef42...@fsulist.frostburg.edu --- You are currently subscribed to tips as: arch...@jab.org. To unsubscribe click here: http://fsulist.frostburg.edu/u?id=13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df5d5n=Tl=tipso=13912 or send a blank email to leave-13912-13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df...@fsulist.frostburg.edu
RE: [tips] Does College Kill Interest in Science?
Only somewhat teaching related: My youngest son has a B. Acc (that's Bachelor's of accounting). Since he was 7 years old he decided he wanted to be an accountant, just like dad's best friend. Conversation we had November, senior year in college:, Mom, do you realize that if I stay with accounting I'll have to sit behind a desk all day? Mom's response, Uh, DUH! ... NOW, you figure that out! College killed his interest in business. So he's working as a junior hockey ice hockey referee based out of St. Paul MN (never drove on snow until he moved there last winter to work--and drive thousands of miles a season in it) and loves it but will probably call it quits after this season. Long story. For anyone who thinks the odds of making it as a player are small, well, the odds of making it as an official are smaller. Highlight: he was the head ref at age 22 for the annual outdoors game held in the junior league level--last year in Fairbanks, Alaska in early March, at night. -5 degrees F at puck drop. Still, he loved it. Not bad for a so-cal kid. I watched it online. Next alternative: take his referee skills into the police force. Peace keep on streets instead of ice. Anything where he will not have to sit behind a desk, pushing a pencil all day. So, yes, the allure of a business degree and supposedly easy money may be there, but sometimes things other than money dominate what makes a person happy. I'm glad he figured it out before he's middle aged, with a mortgage, kids' college tuition on the horizon and feels stuck behind that desk. And I stand by my contention that students really do know that there is great money to be made in science fields and you can get there with a BA or BS. Most are too short-sighted to see the benefits of buckling down for four years in college relative to in the long term needing much more education in other fields in order to have the same financial comfort level. Maybe because I am a woman, and was a single parent for many years, but I find the practical side (read that as financial) of a future occupation to be very important. I always bring it up during advising discussions. Where are the jobs? Can you live on that? What will be your lifestyle and is that a way you can live for a lifetime? Science is a good route. And that's the relation of this post to teaching/advising. Annette Annette Kujawski Taylor, Ph. D. Professor, Psychological Sciences University of San Diego 5998 Alcala Park San Diego, CA 92110 tay...@sandiego.edumailto:tay...@sandiego.edu From: Marc Carter [marc.car...@bakeru.edu] Sent: Saturday, November 05, 2011 6:51 AM To: Teaching in the Psychological Sciences (TIPS) Subject: RE: [tips] Does College Kill Interest in Science? I find it sad that so many students pursue a business degree thinking of big bucks when in fact the majority of them are going to wind up as office drones in a gray cubicle and making a merely decent living. Doing science is hard, but it's *interesting*, and studying it leads to some of the more high-paying jobs we have (they are, of course, outside the academy). I wish that we could get more students to realize that life isn't about money. But in contemporary America, the only values appear to be monetary. I despair sometimes… m -- Marc Carter, PhD Associate Professor of Psychology Chair, Department of Behavioral and Health Sciences College of Arts Sciences Baker University -- From: roig-rear...@comcast.net [mailto:roig-rear...@comcast.net] Sent: Saturday, November 05, 2011 4:54 AM To: Teaching in the Psychological Sciences (TIPS) Subject: Re: [tips] Does College Kill Interest in Science? (I'm replying now with my signature line, which I usually delete, to see if that makes a difference in generating extra lines. I believe that the loss of formatting is more of a local problem, Bob). I think you are correct, Annette, and I wonder whether in addition to earning potential, students are also chosing subjects of study in terms of evolving norms of perceived career appeal. Relative to, say 20 years ago, do careers in STEM disciplines these days have the same general appeal as their business counterparts? My sense is that they do not and that for all of the current anti-corporate sentiment (e.g., OWS), the business path might be seen as a quicker, more efficient way to a comfortable and rewarding life. But, who knows? The real reasons for these effects are probably much more complex than what we have offered so far. _ Miguel Roig, Ph.D. Professor of Psychology St. John's University 300 Howard Avenue Staten Island, New York 10301 Voice: (718) 390-4513 Fax: (718) 390-4347 E-mail: ro...@stjohns.edu http://facpub.stjohns.edu/~roigm On plagiarism and ethical writing: http://ori.dhhs.gov/education/products/plagiarism
RE: [tips] Does College Kill Interest in Science?
Agreed. Working at a small liberal-arts college is tough if your administration has that attitude toward the university degree. m -- Marc Carter, PhD Associate Professor of Psychology Chair, Department of Behavioral and Health Sciences College of Arts Sciences Baker University -- From: Louis E. Schmier [mailto:lschm...@valdosta.edu] Sent: Saturday, November 05, 2011 9:09 AM To: Teaching in the Psychological Sciences (TIPS) Subject: Re: [tips] Does College Kill Interest in Science? Well, Marc, I fully agree. But, that won't happen until academia stops selling, promoting, and advertising a higher education simply as white collar vo-tech, higher paying job, credentialing. Make it a good day -Louis- Louis Schmier http://www.therandomthoughts.edublogs.orghttp://www.therandomthoughts.edublogs.org/ Department of History http://www.therandomthoughts.comhttp://www.therandomthoughts.com/ Valdosta State University Valdosta, Georgia 31698 /\ /\ /\ /\ /\ (O) 229-333-5947/^\\/ \/ \ /\/\__ / \ / \ (C) 229-630-0821 / \/ \_ \/ / \/ /\/ / \ /\ \ //\/\/ /\\__/__/_/\_\/ \_/__\ \ /\If you want to climb mountains,\ /\ _ / \don't practice on mole hills - / \_ On Nov 5, 2011, at 9:51 AM, Marc Carter wrote: I find it sad that so many students pursue a business degree thinking of big bucks when in fact the majority of them are going to wind up as office drones in a gray cubicle and making a merely decent living. Doing science is hard, but it's *interesting*, and studying it leads to some of the more high-paying jobs we have (they are, of course, outside the academy). I wish that we could get more students to realize that life isn't about money. But in contemporary America, the only values appear to be monetary. I despair sometimes... m -- Marc Carter, PhD Associate Professor of Psychology Chair, Department of Behavioral and Health Sciences College of Arts Sciences Baker University -- From: roig-rear...@comcast.netmailto:roig-rear...@comcast.net [mailto:roig-rear...@comcast.net] Sent: Saturday, November 05, 2011 4:54 AM To: Teaching in the Psychological Sciences (TIPS) Subject: Re: [tips] Does College Kill Interest in Science? (I'm replying now with my signature line, which I usually delete, to see if that makes a difference in generating extra lines. I believe that the loss of formatting is more of a local problem, Bob). I think you are correct, Annette, and I wonder whether in addition to earning potential, students are also chosing subjects of study in terms of evolving norms of perceived career appeal. Relative to, say 20 years ago, do careers in STEM disciplines these days have the same general appeal as their business counterparts? My sense is that they do not and that for all of the current anti-corporate sentiment (e.g., OWS), the business path might be seen as a quicker, more efficient way to a comfortable and rewarding life. But, who knows? The real reasons for these effects are probably much more complex than what we have offered so far. _ Miguel Roig, Ph.D. Professor of Psychology St. John's University 300 Howard Avenue Staten Island, New York 10301 Voice: (718) 390-4513 Fax: (718) 390-4347 E-mail: ro...@stjohns.edumailto:ro...@stjohns.edu http://facpub.stjohns.edu/~roigm On plagiarism and ethical writing: http://ori.dhhs.gov/education/products/plagiarism/ _ The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by Baker University (BU) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify Baker University by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. --- You are currently subscribed to tips as: lschm...@valdosta.edumailto:lschm...@valdosta.edu. To unsubscribe click here: http://fsulist.frostburg.edu/u?id=13368.9b8fe41d7a9a359029570f1d2ef42440n=Tl=tipso=13911 (It may be necessary to cut and paste the above URL if the line is broken) or send a blank email to leave-13911-13368.9b8fe41d7a9a359029570f1d2ef42...@fsulist.frostburg.edumailto:leave-13911-13368.9b8fe41d7a9a359029570f1d2ef42
[tips] Does College Kill Interest in Science?
An article in the NY Times today reviews how the U.S. is losing their science majors once they are IN college. The article is available here: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/06/education/edlife/why-science-majors-change-their-mind-its-just-so-darn-hard.html?google_editors_picks=true Some key points: (1) The focus here is on students with strong STEM backgrounds. (2) Science majors at big research institutions are more likely to drop out of the science major relative to other less prestigious institutions.. (3) As some of the comments to the article point out, people with STEM majors and graduate study still have a hard time getting jobs, especially ones that pay well. (4) For purposes of this article, psychology is NOT a science (indeed, there is a case presented of a student with a strong background in math, was an engineering major at Notre Dame and switched to a double-major in English and psychology -- he plans on becoming a clinical psychologist). By the way, I believe the APA and other organizations were trying to get psychology recognized as a STEM discipline. Anyone know how that is going? -Mike Palij New York University m...@nyu.eud --- You are currently subscribed to tips as: arch...@jab.org. To unsubscribe click here: http://fsulist.frostburg.edu/u?id=13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df5d5n=Tl=tipso=13889 or send a blank email to leave-13889-13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df...@fsulist.frostburg.edu
Re: [tips] Does College Kill Interest in Science?
I get a sense from this article and my own experience that in an effort to hook students, the middle and high schools water down their programs. Then when faced with real science in college it's a big whoopsie with the professor taking the brunt of the students' anger at the disillusionment. Maybe the hooking needs to take place in elementary school, and real science education in middle and high school. Oh well, my speculation won't make a whit of difference. Annette Sent from my Verizon Wireless Phone Mike Palij wrote: An article in the NY Times today reviews how the U.S. is losing their science majors once they are IN college. The article is available here: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/06/education/edlife/why-science-majors-change-their-mind-its-just-so-darn-hard.html?google_editors_picks=true Some key points: (1) The focus here is on students with strong STEM backgrounds. (2) Science majors at big research institutions are more likely to drop out of the science major relative to other less prestigious institutions.. (3) As some of the comments to the article point out, people with STEM majors and graduate study still have a hard time getting jobs, especially ones that pay well. (4) For purposes of this article, psychology is NOT a science (indeed, there is a case presented of a student with a strong background in math, was an engineering major at Notre Dame and switched to a double-major in English and psychology -- he plans on becoming a clinical psychologist). By the way, I believe the APA and other organizations were trying to get psychology recognized as a STEM discipline. Anyone know how that is going? -Mike Palij New York University m...@nyu.eud --- You are currently subscribed to tips as: tay...@sandiego.edu. To unsubscribe click here: http://fsulist.frostburg.edu/u?id=13534.4204dc3a11678c6b1d0be57cfe0a21b0n=Tl=tipso=13889 or send a blank email to leave-13889-13534.4204dc3a11678c6b1d0be57cfe0a2...@fsulist.frostburg.edu --- You are currently subscribed to tips as: arch...@jab.org. To unsubscribe click here: http://fsulist.frostburg.edu/u?id=13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df5d5n=Tl=tipso=13890 or send a blank email to leave-13890-13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df...@fsulist.frostburg.edu
Re: [tips] Does College Kill Interest in Science?
Annette, Your post made me think about an episode I had been thinking about putting together on this topic of attracting students to science vs. the challenge of actually doing real science. When I taught Research Methods and Statistics for psych majors, a colleague who had a very different teaching style taught it along with me. He was quite, shall we say demanding and I wanted the students to enjoy the topic. As a result, I would guess that his students probably came out of the course having learned more, but I think mine came out of the course with a more positive attitude toward research and stats. In other words, his students might have done better on Bloom's cognitive domains, but mine would have come out higher on Bloom's affective domains. Which approach is better? I agree that actual science is hard. There's no way to water down how complex a repeated measures of anova is to carry out and analyze. I would argue that when it's your study and your idea and your hypothesis, then you'll put in the time to figure out how to calculate those complicated stats, but you first have to have a positive attitude and you have to value the scientific method. Michael Michael A. Britt, Ph.D. mich...@thepsychfiles.com http://www.ThePsychFiles.com Twitter: mbritt On Nov 4, 2011, at 3:08 PM, Annette Taylor wrote: I get a sense from this article and my own experience that in an effort to hook students, the middle and high schools water down their programs. Then when faced with real science in college it's a big whoopsie with the professor taking the brunt of the students' anger at the disillusionment. Maybe the hooking needs to take place in elementary school, and real science education in middle and high school. Oh well, my speculation won't make a whit of difference. Annette Sent from my Verizon Wireless Phone Mike Palij wrote: --- You are currently subscribed to tips as: michael.br...@thepsychfiles.com. To unsubscribe click here: http://fsulist.frostburg.edu/u?id=13405.0125141592fa9ededc665c55d9958f69n=Tl=tipso=13890 (It may be necessary to cut and paste the above URL if the line is broken) or send a blank email to leave-13890-13405.0125141592fa9ededc665c55d9958...@fsulist.frostburg.edu An article in the NY Times today reviews how the U.S. is losing their science majors once they are IN college. The article is available here: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/06/education/edlife/why-science-majors-change-their-mind-its-just-so-darn-hard.html?google_editors_picks=true Some key points: (1) The focus here is on students with strong STEM backgrounds. (2) Science majors at big research institutions are more likely to drop out of the science major relative to other less prestigious institutions.. (3) As some of the comments to the article point out, people with STEM majors and graduate study still have a hard time getting jobs, especially ones that pay well. (4) For purposes of this article, psychology is NOT a science (indeed, there is a case presented of a student with a strong background in math, was an engineering major at Notre Dame and switched to a double-major in English and psychology -- he plans on becoming a clinical psychologist). By the way, I believe the APA and other organizations were trying to get psychology recognized as a STEM discipline. Anyone know how that is going? -Mike Palij New York University m...@nyu.eud --- You are currently subscribed to tips as: tay...@sandiego.edu. To unsubscribe click here: http://fsulist.frostburg.edu/u?id=13534.4204dc3a11678c6b1d0be57cfe0a21b0n=Tl=tipso=13889 or send a blank email to leave-13889-13534.4204dc3a11678c6b1d0be57cfe0a2...@fsulist.frostburg.edu --- You are currently subscribed to tips as: michael.br...@thepsychfiles.com. To unsubscribe click here: http://fsulist.frostburg.edu/u?id=13405.0125141592fa9ededc665c55d9958f69n=Tl=tipso=13890 (It may be necessary to cut and paste the above URL if the line is broken) or send a blank email to leave-13890-13405.0125141592fa9ededc665c55d9958...@fsulist.frostburg.edu --- You are currently subscribed to tips as: arch...@jab.org. To unsubscribe click here: http://fsulist.frostburg.edu/u?id=13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df5d5n=Tl=tipso=13891 or send a blank email to leave-13891-13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df...@fsulist.frostburg.edu
Re: [tips] Does College Kill Interest in Science?
I noticed that too, but i thought it was just me. So why is this happening? Michael A. Britt, Ph.D. mich...@thepsychfiles.com http://www.ThePsychFiles.com Twitter: mbritt On Nov 4, 2011, at 6:27 PM, roig-rear...@comcast.net wrote: . And why are there so many empty lines between my email header and my message when it appears on TIPS? Miguel From: roig-rear...@comcast.net To: Teaching in the Psychological Sciences (TIPS) tips@fsulist.frostburg.edu Sent: Friday, November 4, 2011 6:25:35 PM Subject: Re: [tips] Does College Kill Interest in Science? I really have to wonder whether the issue lies in students' realization that the financial and personal rewards of choosing science as a career are just not worth the sacrifice. Think about it: years of doctoral and post-doctoral grueling lab work, little guarantee of a tenure-track faculty position in a research-oriented institution after graduation, decreasing societal respect for the profession. Is it any wonder that students are not going into these disciplines? Miguel From: Michael Britt mich...@thepsychfiles.com To: Teaching in the Psychological Sciences (TIPS) tips@fsulist.frostburg.edu Sent: Friday, November 4, 2011 3:24:05 PM Subject: Re: [tips] Does College Kill Interest in Science? Annette, Your post made me think about an episode I had been thinking about putting together on this topic of attracting students to science vs. the challenge of actually doing real science. When I taught Research Methods and Statistics for psych majors, a colleague who had a very different teaching style taught it along with me. He was quite, shall we say demanding and I wanted the students to enjoy the topic. As a result, I would guess that his students probably came out of the course having learned more, but I think mine came out of the course with a more positive attitude toward research and stats. In other words, his students might have done better on Bloom's cognitive domains, but mine would have come out higher on Bloom's affective domains. Which approach is better? I agree that actual science is hard. There's no way to water down how complex a repeated measures of anova is to carry out and analyze. I would argue that when it's your study and your idea and your hypothesis, then you'll put in the time to figure out how to calculate those complicated stats, but you first have to have a positive attitude and you have to value the scientific method. Michael Michael A. Britt, Ph.D. mich...@thepsychfiles.com http://www.ThePsychFiles.com Twitter: mbritt On Nov 4, 2011, at 3:08 PM, Annette Taylor wrote: I get a sense from this article and my own experience that in an effort to hook students, the middle and high schools water down their programs. Then when faced with real science in college it's a big whoopsie with the professor taking the brunt of the students' anger at the disillusionment. Maybe the hooking needs to take place in elementary school, and real science education in middle and high school. Oh well, my speculation won't make a whit of difference. Annette Sent from my Verizon Wireless Phone Mike Palij wrote: --- You are currently subscribed to tips as: michael.br...@thepsychfiles.com. To unsubscribe click here: http://fsulist.frostburg.edu/u?id=13405.0125141592fa9ededc665c55d9958f69n=Tl=tipso=13890 (It may be necessary to cut and paste the above URL if the line is broken) or send a blank email to leave-13890-13405.0125141592fa9ededc665c55d9958...@fsulist.frostburg.edu An article in the NY Times today reviews how the U.S. is losing their science majors once they are IN college. The article is available here: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/06/education/edlife/why-science-majors-change-their-mind-its-just-so-darn-hard.html?google_editors_picks=true Some key points: (1) The focus here is on students with strong STEM backgrounds. (2) Science majors at big research institutions are more likely to drop out of the science major relative to other less prestigious institutions.. (3) As some of the comments to the article point out, people with STEM majors and graduate study still have a hard time getting jobs, especially ones that pay well. (4) For purposes of this article, psychology is NOT a science (indeed, there is a case presented of a student with a strong background in math, was an engineering major at Notre Dame and switched to a double-major in English and psychology -- he plans on becoming a clinical psychologist). By the way, I believe the APA and other organizations were trying to get psychology recognized as a STEM discipline. Anyone know how that is going? -Mike Palij New York University m...@nyu.eud --- You are currently subscribed to tips as: tay...@sandiego.edu. To unsubscribe click here
Re: [tips] Does College Kill Interest in Science?
Miguel roig-rear...@comcast.net . And why are there so many empty lines between my email header and my message when it appears on TIPS? I've been noticing that myself, and why did your line extend beyond the limits of my screen and made me have to scroll to read the complete sentence. . Robert W. Wildblood, PhD Adjunct Psychology Faculty Germanna Community College drb...@rcn.com --- You are currently subscribed to tips as: arch...@jab.org. To unsubscribe click here: http://fsulist.frostburg.edu/u?id=13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df5d5n=Tl=tipso=13899 or send a blank email to leave-13899-13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df...@fsulist.frostburg.edu
RE: [tips] Does College Kill Interest in Science?
You make it sound so grim; in reality, most of the science, tech and engineering jobs pay better right out of college with a BA or BS degree, than many other non-STEM jobs pay with years of additional schooling. My (soon to ex-) daughter-in-law is making as money this year as a first year grad in chemical engineering, as I am making 20+ years in my job with a PhD. Granted she was in an extremely challenging program and had to work her buns off for a BS degree, but it is still many fewer years of education and no dissertation. AND she finds her work interesting, fascinating and rewarding. Annette Annette Kujawski Taylor, Ph. D. Professor, Psychological Sciences University of San Diego 5998 Alcala Park San Diego, CA 92110 tay...@sandiego.edumailto:tay...@sandiego.edu From: roig-rear...@comcast.net [roig-rear...@comcast.net] Sent: Friday, November 04, 2011 3:25 PM To: Teaching in the Psychological Sciences (TIPS) Subject: Re: [tips] Does College Kill Interest in Science? I really have to wonder whether the issue lies in students' realization that the financial and personal rewards of choosing science as a career are just not worth the sacrifice. Think about it: years of doctoral and post-doctoral grueling lab work, little guarantee of a tenure-track faculty position in a research-oriented institution after graduation, decreasing societal respect for the profession. Is it any wonder that students are not going into these disciplines? Miguel From: Michael Britt mich...@thepsychfiles.com To: Teaching in the Psychological Sciences (TIPS) tips@fsulist.frostburg.edu Sent: Friday, November 4, 2011 3:24:05 PM Subject: Re: [tips] Does College Kill Interest in Science? Annette, Your post made me think about an episode I had been thinking about putting together on this topic of attracting students to science vs. the challenge of actually doing real science. When I taught Research Methods and Statistics for psych majors, a colleague who had a very different teaching style taught it along with me. He was quite, shall we say demanding and I wanted the students to enjoy the topic. As a result, I would guess that his students probably came out of the course having learned more, but I think mine came out of the course with a more positive attitude toward research and stats. In other words, his students might have done better on Bloom's cognitive domains, but mine would have come out higher on Bloom's affective domains. Which approach is better? I agree that actual science is hard. There's no way to water down how complex a repeated measures of anova is to carry out and analyze. I would argue that when it's your study and your idea and your hypothesis, then you'll put in the time to figure out how to calculate those complicated stats, but you first have to have a positive attitude and you have to value the scientific method. Michael Michael A. Britt, Ph.D. mich...@thepsychfiles.commailto:mich...@thepsychfiles.com http://www.ThePsychFiles.comhttp://www.thepsychfiles.com/ Twitter: mbritt On Nov 4, 2011, at 3:08 PM, Annette Taylor wrote: I get a sense from this article and my own experience that in an effort to hook students, the middle and high schools water down their programs. Then when faced with real science in college it's a big whoopsie with the professor taking the brunt of the students' anger at the disillusionment. Maybe the hooking needs to take place in elementary school, and real science education in middle and high school. Oh well, my speculation won't make a whit of difference. Annette Sent from my Verizon Wireless Phone Mike Palij wrote: --- You are currently subscribed to tips as: michael.br...@thepsychfiles.commailto:michael.br...@thepsychfiles.com. To unsubscribe click here: http://fsulist.frostburg.edu/u?id=13405.0125141592fa9ededc665c55d9958f69n=Tl=tipso=13890 (It may be necessary to cut and paste the above URL if the line is broken) or send a blank email to leave-13890-13405.0125141592fa9ededc665c55d9958...@fsulist.frostburg.edumailto:leave-13890-13405.0125141592fa9ededc665c55d9958...@fsulist.frostburg.edu An article in the NY Times today reviews how the U.S. is losing their science majors once they are IN college. The article is available here: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/06/education/edlife/why-science-majors-change-their-mind-its-just-so-darn-hard.html?google_editors_picks=true Some key points: (1) The focus here is on students with strong STEM backgrounds. (2) Science majors at big research institutions are more likely to drop out of the science major relative to other less prestigious institutions.. (3) As some of the comments to the article point out, people with STEM majors and graduate study still have a hard time getting jobs, especially ones that pay well. (4) For purposes of this article, psychology is NOT a science
