RE:[tips] Childlessness hits men the hardest (n = 16)

2013-04-08 Thread Mike Wiliams
I got the numbers from another Tipster and just plugged them in.  I 
think they are correct now.


Mike

On 4/8/13 2:00 AM, Teaching in the Psychological Sciences (TIPS) digest 
wrote:

TIPS Digest for Sunday, April 07, 2013.

1. RE:Childlessness hits men the hardest (n = 16)
2. RE:Childlessness hits men the hardest (n = 16)

--

Subject: RE:Childlessness hits men the hardest (n = 16)
From: Mike Wiliamsjmicha5...@aol.com
Date: Sun, 07 Apr 2013 01:09:25 -0400
X-Message-Number: 1

I updated the spreadsheet.  It now includes an analysis for both samples.

Mike Williams

On 4/7/13 1:00 AM, Teaching in the Psychological Sciences (TIPS) digest
wrote:

  Subject: RE:Childlessness hits men the hardest (n = 16)
  From: David Epsteinda...@neverdave.com
  Date: Sat, 6 Apr 2013 12:58:25 -0400 (EDT)
  X-Message-Number: 5

  On Sat, 6 Apr 2013, Mike Wiliams went:


  I did the spreadsheet quickly and I hope
  there are no errors.
  
  http://www.learnpsychology.com/Men_Woman_ChildDepression_Example.xlsx

  It's a little less bad (less bad than the p = .57 on your spreadsheet)
  when you use the author's denominator, which is the subset of people
  who had actually wanted to have children: 67 out of 108.  The numbers
  are then:

   male   female
  depression   8   14 22
  no depression8   37 45
 16   51 67

  And the p value is .09, two-tailed.

  But that's by far the biggest difference of the half dozen
  differences he reports.

  --David Epstein
   da...@neverdave.com



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Re:[tips] Childlessness hits men the hardest (n = 16)

2013-04-08 Thread Allen Esterson
Re DavidEpstein's sceptical post citing the Keele University Press release
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/04/130403071957.htm
andsubsequent posts:
 
I emailedRobin Hadley, who undertook the reported research, asking for 
information abouthis methodology, how the subjects were recruited, and 
specifically whether theywere self-selected. The relevant part of his response 
is as follows:
 
In order to examine the issues surrounding the desire forparenthood a 
sequential mixed-methods quantitative-qualitative approach wasselected. This 
approach allows the verification of results, generation of newareas of 
interest, and provides generalisabilty of results. An on-linequestionnaire was 
designed to measure the influences, motivations, and reasonsthat may affect the 
decision to parent. Included was a unique item attemptingto measure the 
reactions associated with broodiness. Open questions wereintegrated into the 
survey to provide detail of the respondent’s lifeexperience and, in addition, 
aid validity by providing feedback on the survey.Respondents were recruited by 
a snowball technique and over two hundredcompleted replies (n=232) were 
analysed using descriptive, univariate,and bivarite techniques. The profile of 
the sample data gave a mode of femalewith the majority of respondents being 
White-British, degree educated,professional, and heterosexual.
 
Not being a statistician, I could make little sense of this. (Anytranslations 
of significant sentences will be welcomed!) In response I askedHadley what a 
snowball technique is. In his reply he wrote that itis verypopular in 
qualitative [sic] research as a strategy for accessing hard to 
reachpopulations, and may be defined as: The recruitment method thatasks a 
participant to pass details of the study to his/her interpersonalnetwork to 
generate further recruits.
 
Inreply I wrote that it seems evident that the subjects were self-selected, 
andthat that reduces the reliability of the results of the survey. I 
alsosuggested this should have been made clear in the press release.
 
Inhis response Hadley ignored my point about self-selected subjects, and 
merelythanked me for my interest (!) while directing my question about the 
pressrelease to the British Sociological Society person responsible for it.
 
AsDavid's link to the following article shows, Hadley is hardly a disinterested 
researcheron this issue: 
I’m 53 now and I’m not a father. Inever will be. I am happily married – to my 
second wife – and we have nochildren. It’s not that we didn’t want any; since 
my mid-thirties, I have beenbroody, desperate for the kids that I watched my 
friends and colleagues havingover the years.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/mother-tongue/fatherhood/9969542/Robin-Hadley-I-know-all-about-broody-men-who-long-to-be-dads.-I-am-one.html
 
So we have here another (and possibly the worst) in a recent tendency towards 
premature pressreleases from universities in the UK and the US publicising 
unreplicatedstudies without peer-review having, it would seem, as its main 
purpose thepromotion of the name of the university. 

Allen Esterson
Former lecturer, Science Department
Southwark College, London
allenester...@compuserve.com
http://www.esterson.org
 
--
 
  
  
From:
  
  
  
David Epstein da...@neverdave.com
  
 
 
  
  
Subject:
  
  
  
Childlessness hits men the hardest (n = 16)
  
 
 
  
  
Date:
  
  
  
Thu, 4 Apr 2013 02:02:36 -0400 (EDT)
  
 

 
Spotted on Google News: a university press release getting picked up
as if it were science news. It's a survey with differences such as 8
out of 16 men (50%) versus 14 out of 51 women (27%).
http://www.google.com/news?q=%22robin+hadley%22hl=en
 
Well, you can chi-square the numbers yourself
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/04/130403071957.htm.
There is NOT EVEN ONE DIFFERENCE between men and women in the survey.
 --David Epstein
  da...@neverdave.com

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RE: Re:[tips] Childlessness hits men the hardest (n = 16)

2013-04-08 Thread Rick Froman
It appears the word, “broody” is commonplace in the British form of English 
(and evidently in biological studies of broodiness) but I don’t recall ever 
having heard it used in the US. At first, before looking it up, I assumed it 
was another way of saying, “moody”. I wonder if it is partly a cultural 
difference in that referring to someone as “broody” especially someone who was 
not, or was no longer, capable of having children, would seem very unPC or 
maybe even quite rude and, at the least, no one else’s business (especially, 
possibly “broody” grandparents inquiring about when they might expect a 
grandchild).

As to the snowball technique, it is quite common in qualitative studies where 
the “representativeness” of the sample is irrelevant (and it is very difficult 
to find many participants so you rely on the few you find recruiting their own 
friends. Qualitative research has no concept of a larger population of which 
this sample is a representative microcosm.  All that matters is that you 
correctly communicate the experience of those that end up in your sample. 
Thinking that such a sample could serve as well for the quantitative research, 
which has entirely different assumptions, seems to indicate that they are 
really just using the “its just qualitative” fall-back when their quantitative 
data is questioned.

Rick

Dr. Rick Froman, Chair
Division of Humanities and Social Sciences
Professor of Psychology
Box 3519
John Brown University
2000 W. University Siloam Springs, AR  72761
rfro...@jbu.edumailto:rfro...@jbu.edu
(479) 524-7295
http://bit.ly/DrFroman

From: Allen Esterson [mailto:allenester...@compuserve.com]
Sent: Monday, April 08, 2013 4:40 AM
To: Teaching in the Psychological Sciences (TIPS)
Subject: Re:[tips] Childlessness hits men the hardest (n = 16)

Re David Epstein's sceptical post citing the Keele University Press release
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/04/130403071957.htm
and subsequent posts:

I emailed Robin Hadley, who undertook the reported research, asking for 
information about his methodology, how the subjects were recruited, and 
specifically whether they were self-selected. The relevant part of his response 
is as follows:

In order to examine the issues surrounding the desire for parenthood a 
sequential mixed-methods quantitative-qualitative approach was selected. This 
approach allows the verification of results, generation of new areas of 
interest, and provides generalisabilty of results. An on-line questionnaire was 
designed to measure the influences, motivations, and reasons that may affect 
the decision to parent. Included was a unique item attempting to measure the 
reactions associated with broodiness. Open questions were integrated into the 
survey to provide detail of the respondent’s life experience and, in addition, 
aid validity by providing feedback on the survey. Respondents were recruited by 
a snowball technique and over two hundred completed replies (n=232) were 
analysed using descriptive, univariate, and bivarite techniques. The profile of 
the sample data gave a mode of female with the majority of respondents being 
White-British, degree educated, professional, and heterosexual.

Not being a statistician, I could make little sense of this. (Any translations 
of significant sentences will be welcomed!) In response I asked Hadley what a 
snowball technique is. In his reply he wrote that it is very popular in 
qualitative [sic] research as a strategy for accessing hard to reach 
populations, and may be defined as: The recruitment method that asks a 
participant to pass details of the study to his/her interpersonal network to 
generate further recruits.

In reply I wrote that it seems evident that the subjects were self-selected, 
and that that reduces the reliability of the results of the survey. I also 
suggested this should have been made clear in the press release.

In his response Hadley ignored my point about self-selected subjects, and 
merely thanked me for my interest (!) while directing my question about the 
press release to the British Sociological Society person responsible for it.

As David's link to the following article shows, Hadley is hardly a 
disinterested researcher on this issue:
I’m 53 now and I’m not a father. I never will be. I am happily married – to my 
second wife – and we have no children. It’s not that we didn’t want any; since 
my mid-thirties, I have been broody, desperate for the kids that I watched my 
friends and colleagues having over the years.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/mother-tongue/fatherhood/9969542/Robin-Hadley-I-know-all-about-broody-men-who-long-to-be-dads.-I-am-one.html

So we have here another (and possibly the worst) in a recent tendency towards 
premature press releases from universities in the UK and the US publicising 
unreplicated studies without peer-review having, it would seem, as its main 
purpose the promotion of the name of the university.

Allen Esterson
Former lecturer

RE: Re:[tips] Childlessness hits men the hardest (n = 16)

2013-04-08 Thread Shapiro, Susan J
From: Rick Froman [mailto:rfro...@jbu.edu]

It appears the word, “broody” is commonplace in the British form of English 
(and evidently in biological studies of broodiness) but I don’t recall ever 
having heard it used in the US.

[Shapiro, Susan J]

I think it depends on if you have ever hung around people who raised chickens 
for eggs.

A hen can get “broody” and start acting like she is incubating eggs.

For a fun description you might enjoy http://hencam.com/faq/the-broody-hen/

It seems that “people “ can get into a similar mood.

Suzi
S. Shapiro Ph D
Indiana University East
2325 Chester Blvd
Richmond, IN 47374
(765) 973-8284
sjsha...@iue.edu




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RE: Re:[tips] Childlessness hits men the hardest (n = 16)

2013-04-08 Thread Mike Palij

On Mon, 08 Apr 2013 07:58:30 -0700, David Epstein wrote:

On Mon, 8 Apr 2013, Rick Froman went:

As to the snowball technique, it is quite common in qualitative
studies where the representativeness of the sample is irrelevant
(and it is very difficult to find many participants so you rely on
the few you find recruiting their own friends. Qualitative research
has no concept of a larger population of which this sample is a
representative microcosm.  All that matters is that you correctly
communicate the experience of those that end up in your
sample. Thinking that such a sample could serve as well for the
quantitative research, which has entirely different assumptions,
seems to indicate that they are really just using the it's just
qualitative fall-back when their quantitative data is questioned.


And as the original poster, I want to emphasize that I greatly value
qualitative research.  Focus groups, interviews, and ethnographic
immersion can provide knowledge you would never get from other
approaches.  (I'm a coauthor on a focus-group paper, and I'm quite
proud of it, even though no one ever cites it.)  You just need to
write clearly about what you're doing--and speak up real loud if it's
misrepresented in a press release or a spate of mass-media coverage.


I have not been following this thread as closely as perhaps I should
have but there are a few points that concern me that have not been
adequately addressed:

(1)  Allen Esterson mentioned that in response to his queries, the
author of the research mentioned that he used snowball sampling.
For those who need a brief review of sampling techniques and their
impact on analysis, I suggest taking a look at Kakinami  Conner (2010)
Sampling Strategies For Addiction Research, a copy of which can
be obtained here:
http://dl.ravannews.com/files/Addiction_research_methods.pdf#page=44
Chapter 3 is on sampling techniques and the major types of sampling
schemes (i.e., probability, non-probability which snowball sampling is
an example, and qualitative sampling).  I think that there is some confusion
in keeping non-probability sampling separate from qualitative sampling
in this discussion and this reference will help to highlight it.

(2) Non-probability sampling like snowball sampling is typically used
with hard to reach populations, such as substance abuse users like
crack smokers -- one can't just start calling people on the phone and
ask if they use crack, one typically asks one crack user to identify another
crack user who could participate in the study.  Similar situations hold
with sexual activity (e.g., HIV spread, other STDs; network analysis
comes in handy for this type of analysis as well as the recognition that
people in such a sample are correlated or clustered because of
the dependency of a selected person on the person who nominated
him/her).  Snowball sampling leads to problems in analysis which specialized
software (e.g., SUDAAN) or procedures (e.g., multilevel modeling)
can attempt to deal with but, if the researcher has a choice Respondent
Driven Sampling (RDS) a variation of snowball sampling where the
participant is asked to give a certain number of potential participants
(see Kakinami  Conner above).  More statistical analysis is possible
here.  All this being said, it is unclear to me that the chi-square analyses
shown earlier in this thread are valid since one does not know how
the sample represents the population it was drawn from.

(3)  It could just be me (based on my experience with drug and HIV
research) but I don't think that participants for the reported study 
represent

a hard to reach population.  Indeed, census or similar types of data
sources should allow one to locate families with or without children
who can then be sampled and interviewed or given questionnaires to
fill out.  The rationale for using snowball sampling is not at all clear to
me and may actually represent a confusion about what type of sampling
was actually used.

So, if anyone can clarify, I'd appreciate it.

-Mike Palij
New York University
m...@nyu.edu



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Re:[tips] Childlessness hits men the hardest (n = 16)

2013-04-08 Thread Allen Esterson

Rick Froman writes:
As to the snowball technique, it is quite common in qualitative studies 
where the “representativeness” of the sample is irrelevant...  
All that matters is that you correctly communicate the experience 
of those that end up in your sample...

and David Epstein:
I want to emphasize that I greatly value qualitative research. 
Focus groups, interviews, and ethnographic immersion can 
provide knowledge you would never get from other approaches...
You just need to write clearly about what you're doing--and 
speak up real loud if it's misrepresented in a press release or a 
spate of mass-media coverage.
 
Surely the fact that the researcher provided a full statistical analysis and 
breakdown of his results means he is giving a spurious legitimacy to a study 
that by its very nature is not representative of the relevant population.
 
Allen E.

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RE:[tips] Childlessness hits men the hardest (n = 16)

2013-04-07 Thread Jim Clark
Hi

How can there be more depressed males (8) in the subset than in the full set 
(6)?

Jim


James M. Clark
Professor  Chair of Psychology
j.cl...@uwinnipeg.ca
Room 4L41A
204-786-9757
204-774-4134 Fax
Dept of Psychology, U of Winnipeg
515 Portage Ave, Winnipeg, MB
R3B 0R4  CANADA


 Mike Wiliams jmicha5...@aol.com 07-Apr-13 12:09 AM 
I updated the spreadsheet.  It now includes an analysis for both samples.

Mike Williams

On 4/7/13 1:00 AM, Teaching in the Psychological Sciences (TIPS) digest 
wrote:
 Subject: RE:Childlessness hits men the hardest (n = 16)
 From: David Epsteinda...@neverdave.com
 Date: Sat, 6 Apr 2013 12:58:25 -0400 (EDT)
 X-Message-Number: 5

 On Sat, 6 Apr 2013, Mike Wiliams went:

   I did the spreadsheet quickly and I hope
   there are no errors.
 
   http://www.learnpsychology.com/Men_Woman_ChildDepression_Example.xlsx 
 It's a little less bad (less bad than the p = .57 on your spreadsheet)
 when you use the author's denominator, which is the subset of people
 who had actually wanted to have children: 67 out of 108.  The numbers
 are then:

 male   female
 depression   8   14 22
 no depression8   37 45
   16   51 67

 And the p value is .09, two-tailed.

 But that's by far the biggest difference of the half dozen
 differences he reports.

 --David Epstein
 da...@neverdave.com 


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RE:[tips] Childlessness hits men the hardest (n = 16)

2013-04-06 Thread David Epstein

On Sat, 6 Apr 2013, Mike Wiliams went:

I did the spreadsheet quickly and I hope 
there are no errors.


http://www.learnpsychology.com/Men_Woman_ChildDepression_Example.xlsx


It's a little less bad (less bad than the p = .57 on your spreadsheet)
when you use the author's denominator, which is the subset of people
who had actually wanted to have children: 67 out of 108.  The numbers
are then:

  male   female
depression   8   14 22
no depression8   37 45
16   51 67

And the p value is .09, two-tailed.

But that's by far the biggest difference of the half dozen
differences he reports.

--David Epstein
  da...@neverdave.com




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RE:[tips] Childlessness hits men the hardest (n = 16)

2013-04-06 Thread Mike Wiliams

I updated the spreadsheet.  It now includes an analysis for both samples.

Mike Williams

On 4/7/13 1:00 AM, Teaching in the Psychological Sciences (TIPS) digest 
wrote:

Subject: RE:Childlessness hits men the hardest (n = 16)
From: David Epsteinda...@neverdave.com
Date: Sat, 6 Apr 2013 12:58:25 -0400 (EDT)
X-Message-Number: 5

On Sat, 6 Apr 2013, Mike Wiliams went:


  I did the spreadsheet quickly and I hope
  there are no errors.

  http://www.learnpsychology.com/Men_Woman_ChildDepression_Example.xlsx

It's a little less bad (less bad than the p = .57 on your spreadsheet)
when you use the author's denominator, which is the subset of people
who had actually wanted to have children: 67 out of 108.  The numbers
are then:

male   female
depression   8   14 22
no depression8   37 45
  16   51 67

And the p value is .09, two-tailed.

But that's by far the biggest difference of the half dozen
differences he reports.

--David Epstein
da...@neverdave.com



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RE:[tips] Childlessness hits men the hardest (n = 16)

2013-04-05 Thread Allen Esterson

TheKeele University report of the surveyconducted by Robin Hadley states:

Mr Hadley conducted thesurvey using an online questionnaire among people aged 
20 to 66, with anaverage age of 41. Just over 80% were white British, 69% had 
degrees, 69%worked full time and 90% were heterosexual. Mr Hadley said this was 
aqualitative study rather than a quantitative statistical representation 
ofBritish society.
http://www.keele.ac.uk/pressreleases/2013/title,89912,en.html


Does anyone have any idea of themethodology implied by the descriptions online 
questionnaire?
I have written to the British SociologicalAssociation email address given at 
the end of the report requesting replies tothe following questions:


1. There is no indication of themethodology used. For instance, how were the 
respondees selected? Were theyself-selected? 


2. Has the report beenpeer-reviewed?


Allen Esterson
Former lecturer, Science Department
Southwark College, London
allenester...@compuserve.com
http://www.esterson.org
 
---



From: David Epsteinda...@neverdave.com
Subject: RE: Childlessnesshits men the hardest (n = 16)
Date:Thu, 4 Apr 2013 12:50:02 -0400(EDT)
 
On Thu, 4 Apr 2013, Rick Fromanwent:
 
 Actually, the whole study withthe online survey methodology, the
 small sample size and thequestionable interpretation reminds me of
 studies done by my ResearchMethods undergrad students but at least
 they would have calculated thechi square results and not made
 anything out of anon-significant result.
 
 Yes! Most of the sources refer to the investigator as a
 
Ph.D. candidate.  I DISAGREE. :)
 
 Well, OK, in one of the stories, theinvestigator cautions that the
study is qualitative, notquantitative
 
http://psychcentral.com/news/2013/04/04/do-men-yearn-for-children-more-than-women/53416.html.
 
In fact, the title of his poster isThe Experiences of Involuntarily
Childless Men as TheyAge.  Nice andphenomenological.  But he's
allowed his institution to summarizehis work with a big batch of
quasi-inferential XX percentversus XY percent statements.
 
So what we have here is a failure ofquality control at every stage of
dissemination.
 
 --David Epstein
da...@neverdave.com

 
  
















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RE:[tips] Childlessness hits men the hardest (n = 16)

2013-04-05 Thread Mike Wiliams
I used this example in class today because part of my introduction to 
stats involves examples of why statistics makes you think better.  It 
went reasonably well.  I quickly made up a 2x2 chi-square example using 
the depression frequencies reported in the article.  I also made a link 
to the article in the Blackboard site for the course.  Although we 
haven't covered chi-square yet, I think the example is simple enough 
that students can grasp the logic.  Here is a link to the spreadsheet.  
I like Excel for examples because I can change data vales and 
immediately present what happens to the statistics when the change is 
made.  I did the spreadsheet quickly and I hope there are no errors.


http://www.learnpsychology.com/Men_Woman_ChildDepression_Example.xlsx

Mike Williams

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RE: [tips] Childlessness hits men the hardest (n = 16)

2013-04-04 Thread Rick Froman
The funny thing is, although most of the reports of this study done by a 
doctoral student and presented at a conference said that men were more affected 
than women (based on these non-significant results), this failure to reject the 
null hypothesis is cited in at least one source as providing positive evidence 
that there are no differences between males and females on these issues. I can 
imagine someone writing an article to share this technique called, The 
Advantage of Low Power Studies in Confirming Equality between Groups. 
Actually, the whole study with the online survey methodology, the small sample 
size and the questionable interpretation reminds me of studies done by my 
Research Methods undergrad students but at least they would have calculated the 
chi square results and not made anything out of a non-significant result.

Rick

Dr. Rick Froman, Chair
Division of Humanities and Social Sciences 
Professor of Psychology 
Box 3519
John Brown University 
2000 W. University Siloam Springs, AR  72761 
rfro...@jbu.edu 
(479) 524-7295
http://bit.ly/DrFroman 

-Original Message-

From: David Epstein [mailto:da...@neverdave.com] 
Sent: Thursday, April 04, 2013 1:03 AM
To: Teaching in the Psychological Sciences (TIPS)
Subject: [tips] Childlessness hits men the hardest (n = 16)

Spotted on Google News: a university press release getting picked up as if it 
were science news. It's a survey with differences such as 8 out of 16 men 
(50%) versus 14 out of 51 women (27%).
http://www.google.com/news?q=%22robin+hadley%22hl=en 

Well, you can chi-square the numbers yourself 
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/04/130403071957.htm.
There is NOT EVEN ONE DIFFERENCE between men and women in the survey.

--David Epstein
   da...@neverdave.com

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RE: [tips] Childlessness hits men the hardest (n = 16)

2013-04-04 Thread David Epstein

On Thu, 4 Apr 2013, Rick Froman went:


Actually, the whole study with the online survey methodology, the
small sample size and the questionable interpretation reminds me of
studies done by my Research Methods undergrad students but at least
they would have calculated the chi square results and not made
anything out of a non-significant result.


Yes!  Most of the sources refer to the investigator as a
Ph.D. candidate.  I DISAGREE.  :)

Well, OK, in one of the stories, the investigator cautions that the
study is qualitative, not quantitative
http://psychcentral.com/news/2013/04/04/do-men-yearn-for-children-more-than-women/53416.html.
In fact, the title of his poster is The Experiences of Involuntarily
Childless Men as They Age.  Nice and phenomenological.  But he's
allowed his institution to summarize his work with a big batch of
quasi-inferential XX percent versus XY percent statements.

So what we have here is a failure of quality control at every stage of
dissemination.

--David Epstein
  da...@neverdave.com

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