Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Touch and burn in
Gaz, should we get Stan Beresford to remove this from the literature that he provides with his dacs: 'Burn in Many users report that the sound output develops in quality after a few tens of hours of use' Looks like this issue is as sensentive as cables so perhaps its best to just agree to disagree? -- Covenant Covenant's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=36495 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=77727 ___ Touch mailing list Touch@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/touch
Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Touch and burn in
I'll go further: the bogus concept of burn-in is a scam to get people to hold onto equipment beyond the product return period. -- Daverz Daverz's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=32335 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=77727 ___ Touch mailing list Touch@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/touch
Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Touch and burn in
maggior;539159 Wrote: It's from a comic strip...it's a joke. Uhm, thanks for that... :) course I knew it was a joke, you thought the straight line comment was me being serious??? :) Im happy to agree to disagree here fella's. Why wouldn't I be serious about component burn in though? Just wanting to get some different opinions on it...some do, some don't. Thanks for the comments.. Gaz (happy in his assertions :)) -- Gazjam Gazjam's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=18604 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=77727 ___ Touch mailing list Touch@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/touch
Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Touch and burn in
My Touch got over burned (in use since Aug 09). Luckily, thanks to the Audiophile forum here, I found some cryogenically treated cables to correct this. -- toby10 toby10's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=12553 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=77727 ___ Touch mailing list Touch@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/touch
Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Touch and burn in
you just made that up ;) -- Gazjam Gazjam's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=18604 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=77727 ___ Touch mailing list Touch@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/touch
Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Touch and burn in
you just made that up ;) -- Gazjam Gazjam's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=18604 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=77727 ___ Touch mailing list Touch@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/touch
Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Touch and burn in
Ali Tait;539344 Wrote: Ok,we'll agree to disagree then! I would accept your argument if the sound I was hearing changed,and stayed changed,but I've heard on many occasions on fitting new components,the sound wandering all over the place,often too much trable,then too much bass,then back again until the component settles.This has been most marked with coupling caps in my valve amps,but I've heard it to a lesser degree with other components.Also heard it especially in the bass,on fitting new output transformers.Initially bass was almost non-existent,and slowly came back over many hours as the new trannies burned in.Changes like this are very obvious in my system,as I use electrostatics,which are extremely revealing. No - I specifically mentioned valve amps as the valves, HT caps (because of the 450-600V) and o/p tranny laminations all do settle down from new... All of my guitar amps have done this. Low voltage transistor and IC gear does not have this issue. On the other hand, Class-A tranny amps and valve amps need a period of warm-up to let the quiescent current/temperature stabilise. -- Phil Leigh You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it ain't what you'd call minimal... Touch(wired/XP) - TACT 2.2X (Linear PSU) + Good Vibrations S/W - MF Triplethreat(Audiocom full mods) - Linn 5103 - Aktiv 5.1 system (6x LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Townsend Supertweeters, Blue Jeans Digital,Kimber Speaker Chord Interconnect cables Kitchen Boom, Outdoors: SB Radio Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=77727 ___ Touch mailing list Touch@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/touch
Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Touch and burn in
Phil Leigh;539396 Wrote: No - I specifically mentioned valve amps as the valves, HT caps (because of the 450-600V) and o/p tranny laminations all do settle down from new... All of my guitar amps have done this. Low voltage transistor and IC gear does not have this issue. On the other hand, Class-A tranny amps and valve amps need a period of warm-up to let the quiescent current/temperature stabilise. I HAVE heard caps get worse during burn in. Specifically VitaminQ paper in oil high voltage caps will sound pretty good when first installed, but after 10 hours of running music they sound abysmal, harsh, grungy, very yucky sound. After another 15 hours or so they start getting better and by about 30 hours are about where they started. Between 30 and 50 hours they improve some more and sound better than they did originally. Every VitaminQ I have ever used goes through this process. Other brands of paper in oil caps go through something similar but with a different time table. Some take only 5 hours to sound awful. Plastic film caps (polypropelyne, polystyrene, polyester) don't have this wild behavior. I have heard some improve somewhat over time, but not nearly like the paper in oil. Transformers also definitely burn in. Something about the magnetic properties of the core changing while the domains realign themselves constantly for the first several hours of use. How much and how long it takes is very dependent on the core material used. Nickel behaves very differently than steel in this regard, and cobalt yet again quite different. There is another completely different effect which is warm up. This happens every time the device is turned on. Most electronic components DO change there electrical properties with temperature. Even digital audio can be affected by this. I have looked into this extensively and found at least two methods by how temperature changes can effect digital audio. First is the resistance of the transistors inside the digital circuits. Cold FETS have a lower resistance than hot FETS. This causes the circuits to switch faster which means the switching currents induce greater voltage drops/bounce on the power traces inside chips and even in the ground planes on boards. This is not fiction, its actually quite easy so see. Unless extraordinary measures are taken this noise WILL affect clock circuits and even analog circuits. Its especially noticeable in some DAC chips. They sound much better as they warm up. I did an experiment where I took a cheap DVD player and glued a resistor to the top of the DAC chip and fed it DC current to warm up the chip. I also added a thermocouple to the chip to take its temperature. I could radically change the sound of that DVD player by warming up the DAC chip. It sounded much better as it got hot. Of course at some point it stopped working altogether, so it CAN be over done! This might be one of the reasons I like DAC chips that get fairly warm in operation. BTW some DAC chips are very sensitive to temperature and others not nearly as much. The other method is in oscillators themselves. Many crystal oscillators actually have lower jitter when they are warm. Crystal ovens are not JUST for stabilizing the frequency. In my own designs I like to use oscillators that get fairly warm, the jitter is lower than cool running ones. These effects are actually exhibited in the Touch, but since the temperature doesn't rise by a lot between cold and on for a long time the difference is not very great. I've seen DVD players that have powerful DSP chips that get VERY hot exhibit these effects to a large degree. I did not notice any burn in effects in the Touch, but I CAN hear warm up effects, but its not very much. I suppose I should try the resistor on the DAC chip test on the Touch and see what happens. John S. -- JohnSwenson JohnSwenson's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=5974 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=77727 ___ Touch mailing list Touch@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/touch
Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Touch and burn in
So John S, when can we expect your DAC and crystal oscillator oven mod for the Touch? :D -- konut konut's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=1596 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=77727 ___ Touch mailing list Touch@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/touch
[SlimDevices: Touch] Touch and burn in
Getting mine today to replace an SB3, looking forward to improved digital out into my Beresford Dac. Most new bits of kit I've had needed some time from new to bed in soundwise. Now the Touch has been out for a while, can any experienced users comment on if this is the case with the Touch? Ta. -- Gazjam Gazjam's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=18604 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=77727 ___ Touch mailing list Touch@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/touch
Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Touch and burn in
I was surprised no one else has yet commented on the initial sound from the Touch. Mine was very bright and the bass very undefined (muddled). A six hours later most of this had disappeared but its taken a week of playing to sound right. Even with its initial sound it was better than the SB3 I have. -- shevans SB Touch, TeddySB3 (PSU), QED Digit Positron PSU, NVA P90sa passive pre-amp, NVA A40 monoblock's, Fostex FE206E based big purple people eaters! The Caiman+ went back... shevans's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=32505 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=77727 ___ Touch mailing list Touch@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/touch
Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Touch and burn in
Interestingly I also have had two B'DACs with my SB3, a 7510 and a Caiman+ (both current models), neither of them gelled with my system and the Caiman+ produced distortion on female vocals. -- shevans SB Touch, TeddySB3 (PSU), QED Digit Positron PSU, NVA P90sa passive pre-amp, NVA A40 monoblock's, Fostex FE206E based big purple people eaters! The Caiman+ went back... shevans's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=32505 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=77727 ___ Touch mailing list Touch@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/touch
Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Touch and burn in
0/10 -- Quad Quad's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=20234 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=77727 ___ Touch mailing list Touch@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/touch
Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Touch and burn in
Thanks for the relpies Shevans, that's the first comments I've heard on the Touch on it's I itial sound. I had an sb3 before into my modded caiman, very smooth open sound..that said, the high frequency stuff WAS a bit splashy sometimes before I upgraded the regulators and output caps..but even at that, not had a problem running the bdac with the Sb. Are you using a dac wiith your touch? How do you find the analogue outs? The teddypsu...hmnn. Is it worth looking into one of those you think? Sorry for all type questions!! Quad.. 0/10?? Don't be such a muppet! ;) -- Gazjam Gazjam's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=18604 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=77727 ___ Touch mailing list Touch@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/touch
Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Touch and burn in
Hi Gazjam, Currently switching between analogue and digital (coaxial), via a QED Digit/Positron DAC, trying to tell which is best. Analogue more enjoyable, via the DAC more information! The analogue outputs are very good, there is always room for improvement but will I be able to hear it? I'm really enjoying listening to mine but may have to think about mods to the QED Digit or look for an alternative. The TeddyPSU (in my opinion) was a must have for the SB3, on the Touch it make only a very slight difference to the bass notes, perhaps slightly clearer and goes lower but my speakers are not really bass monsters and excel in midrange.The SB3 PSU was a right sack of Cr and flooded the mains with noise and replacing it made a huge improvement. I may move the TeddPSU to the bedroom SB3/NVA AP10 system. An improvement for the Touch but is it £200 worth? I think the B'Dac issue is with the NVA pre/power amps passing through and amplifying anything thats fed into it rater than being filtered like a conventional amp. -- shevans SB Touch, TeddySB3 (PSU), QED Digit Positron PSU, NVA P90sa passive pre-amp, NVA A40 monoblock's, Fostex FE206E based big purple people eaters! The Caiman+ went back... shevans's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=32505 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=77727 ___ Touch mailing list Touch@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/touch
Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Touch and burn in
hiya, yeah, I hear good things about the analogue outs, especially when compared to the SB3. Your real world take on the improvements (will I actually HEAR it??), ring true with mine, which makes your comments on burn in for the Touch even more relevent. :) Another question? The Touch display...how do you find viewing it from a distance? I know about the two skins and I sit about ten feet away from the Touch looking down on it. I found the middle text size on the SB3 quite viewable, I whilst I know the text size is SLIGHTLY smaller on teh Touch, I would THINK that the white text on a black background (once ive changed the default wallpaper) will be even more legable? How do you find it? Thanks mate. Gaz. oh, just checked Royal Mail parcel tracking... :) Your item has reached the delivery office and is out for delivery. We can confirm that your item left the delivery office this morning and should arrive shortly if it hasnt been delivered already. Wha-hey! :):) -- Gazjam Gazjam's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=18604 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=77727 ___ Touch mailing list Touch@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/touch
Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Touch and burn in
The screen need to be 7 in size to be comparable to the SB3. The viewing angle, when viewing from below is awful and really needs an adjustable stand. Its too small as a photo viewer but Ok for its intended purpose as long as you are not too far away. Only problem is our Toddler has worked out how to turn it on... -- shevans SB Touch, TeddySB3 (PSU), QED Digit Positron PSU, NVA P90sa passive pre-amp, NVA A40 monoblock's, Fostex FE206E based big purple people eaters! The Caiman+ went back... shevans's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=32505 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=77727 ___ Touch mailing list Touch@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/touch
Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Touch and burn in
Thanks for that, just wondering... do you have an old fireguard to put round it? ;) Its just arrived, so going to set it up..will get back with how I find it. Cheers, Gaz. -- Gazjam Gazjam's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=18604 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=77727 ___ Touch mailing list Touch@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/touch
Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Touch and burn in
I think Gaz has a good point here. Most components need a period of burning in to achieve their optimum sound. Personally I am not going to comment on sound quality until I have used mine for a week or so. -- Covenant Covenant's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=36495 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=77727 ___ Touch mailing list Touch@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/touch
Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Touch and burn in
I've had mine since the 12th.I can't compare it to the SB3 as I didn't have one,and indeed this is the first streamer of any kind I've had.I can say the Touch is better feeding my Audio Note dac than either my Arcam or Marantz CD94 MK II,so I'd say that's a pretty good recommendation.I downloaded somw 24/96 stuff,and it sounds fantastic with it,quite vinyl-like was my first impression,and the resolution through my electrostatic speakers is amazing.Suffice to say,I won't be going back to the silver discs! -- Ali Tait Ali Tait's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=37387 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=77727 ___ Touch mailing list Touch@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/touch
Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Touch and burn in
The needed burn-in, with modern solid state components, is between the ears. New stuff can sound different and different (whether better or not) makes our brain work harder. But we adjust (while components stay the same!) -- garym garym's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=17325 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=77727 ___ Touch mailing list Touch@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/touch
Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Touch and burn in
I've had mine since the 12th.I can't compare it to the SB3 as I didn't have one,and indeed this is the first streamer of any kind I've had.I can say the Touch is better feeding my Audio Note dac than either my Arcam or Marantz CD94 MK II,so I'd say that's a pretty good recommendation.I downloaded somw 24/96 stuff,and it sounds fantastic with it,quite vinyl-like was my first impression,and the resolution through my electrostatic speakers is amazing.Suffice to say,I won't be going back to the silver discs! -- Ali Tait Ali Tait's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=37387 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=77727 ___ Touch mailing list Touch@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/touch
Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Touch and burn in
Wellit's here. :) seup and running in minutes after upgrading it's software. What a cracking little bit of kit! I had concerns (from seeing videos online) about the screen text size but you know what? It's spot on. Bright, very clear and sharp. There's several now playing views and once you switch off the silly wallpaper to a black background, the albumart with track information is really great. Only niggle I have is that the stand makes the Touch angle back too far, and I had problems seeing the screen easily due to reflections and the angle being bad. Lego block with a blob of blutak...sorted. Fit n forget and out of sight, now the screen is spot on. An adjustable stand would have been better, but not to worry. It's been playing LastFm for the last couple of hours and the sound IS changing. Yup, it really is. :) the bass is firming up getting more depth as it goes..more about the song than the hifi stuff now. And this is on 128k MP3. Currently setting up screensavers n stuff...very cool toy that happens to sound as good as it does. -- Gazjam Gazjam's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=18604 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=77727 ___ Touch mailing list Touch@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/touch
Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Touch and burn in
garym;538878 Wrote: The needed burn-in, with modern solid state components, is between the ears. New stuff can sound different and different (whether better or not) makes our brain work harder. But we adjust (while components stay the same!) You are dead wrong-components, mainly capacitors, change due to chemical reactions. The manufacturers acknowledge this themselves: http://www.teledynereynolds.com/product/7micacapacitor/index.asp and specialist equipment is available to measure it: http://www.etesters.com/see/Burn-In -- Covenant Covenant's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=36495 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=77727 ___ Touch mailing list Touch@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/touch
Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Touch and burn in
wot he said. +1 -- Gazjam Gazjam's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=18604 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=77727 ___ Touch mailing list Touch@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/touch
Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Touch and burn in
I don't want to up[set anybody (honestly) but: 1) burn-in testing as described in the links posted earlier is about stress testing (often to destruction) to determine mortality rates etc, especially in high voltage, high risk components. The sort of components found in audio gear are rather different - except for large caps used in valve HT circuits. The burn-in described here is not about burning them in to make them better it's about burning them in to see if/when they fail 2) The mere fact that (audio) equipment ALWAYS sounds better after being burned-in really should give you pause for thought. Why would this be? - after all, we know that actually electrolytic caps begin to deteriorate as soon as you start using them... What law of the universe determines that burn-in is always beneficial to audio quality? Have you EVER heard anyone say it sounded great at first then it got worse... No, thought not. The reason is simple. It is NOT happening in physical reality. 3) Over a year ago I got my Touch. In preparation for this very question I made some recordings (24/192) of the analogue and digital outputs when it was just out of the box, after 1 week, 1 month and nearly 12 months. AudioDiffMaker finds nothing different in these recordings. 4) Human audio memory is rubbish. We are (mostly) great at pitch, rhythm/timing, harmony, melody and timbre. Very poor at everything else. The brain on the other hand is the most powerful and elegant thing in creation... 5) I really hope no-one belives that the digital circuits burn-in. I just can't recall the last time I felt my new computer improved its speed and cripness of image, disk read speed etc during its first few days/weeks of usage... The analogue circuit of the Touch comprise the DAC chip, two caps and a resistor. These are not the sort of caps that burn-in (form). None of this matters. What matters is that you like the sound, now that you are used to it. -- Phil Leigh You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it ain't what you'd call minimal... Touch(wired/XP) - TACT 2.2X (Linear PSU) + Good Vibrations S/W - MF Triplethreat(Audiocom full mods) - Linn 5103 - Aktiv 5.1 system (6x LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Townsend Supertweeters, Blue Jeans Digital,Kimber Speaker Chord Interconnect cables Kitchen Boom, Outdoors: SB Radio Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=77727 ___ Touch mailing list Touch@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/touch
Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Touch and burn in
The changes I heard were within the first week, most noticeably the first 6 hours or so. -- shevans SB Touch, TeddySB3 (PSU), QED Digit Positron PSU, NVA P90sa passive pre-amp, NVA A40 monoblock's, Fostex FE206E based big purple people eaters! The Caiman+ went back... shevans's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=32505 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=77727 ___ Touch mailing list Touch@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/touch
Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Touch and burn in
Phil Leigh wrote: 2) The mere fact that (audio) equipment ALWAYS sounds better after being burned-in really should give you pause for thought. Why would this be? Its clearly the mind resolving the standard buyer's remorse. Nothing more. 4) Human audio memory is rubbish. +1 -- Pat Farrell http://www.pfarrell.com/ ___ Touch mailing list Touch@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/touch
Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Touch and burn in
Phil Leigh;538976 Wrote: I don't want to upset anybody (honestly) but: 1) burn-in testing as described in the links posted earlier is about stress testing (often to destruction) to determine mortality rates etc, especially in high voltage, high risk components. The sort of components found in audio gear are rather different - except for large caps used in valve HT circuits. The burn-in described here is not about burning them in to make them better it's about burning them in to see if/when they fail 2) The mere fact that (audio) equipment ALWAYS sounds better after being burned-in really should give you pause for thought. Why would this be? - after all, we know that actually electrolytic caps begin to deteriorate as soon as you start using them... What law of the universe determines that burn-in is always beneficial to audio quality? Have you EVER heard anyone say it sounded great at first then it got worse... No, thought not. The reason is simple. It is NOT happening in physical reality. 3) Over a year ago I got my Touch. In preparation for this very question I made some recordings (24/192) of the analogue and digital outputs when it was just out of the box, after 1 week, 1 month and nearly 12 months. AudioDiffMaker finds nothing different in these recordings. 4) Human audio memory is rubbish. We are (mostly) great at pitch, rhythm/timing, harmony, melody and timbre. Very poor at everything else. The brain on the other hand is the most powerful and elegant thing in creation... 5) I really hope no-one believes that the digital circuits burn-in. I just can't recall the last time I felt my new computer improved its speed and crispness of image, disk read speed etc during its first few days/weeks of usage... The analogue circuit of the Touch comprises the DAC chip, two caps and a resistor. These are not the sort of caps that burn-in (form). None of this matters. What matters is that you like the sound, now that you are used to it. +1 Having an electronics background from years ago, burn-in to me was always about running electonics over a long period of time to gain confidence that none of the components would fail due to infant mortality. It was about improving performance or making then work better. Yes, the brain and how it affects perception is very powerful. In a completely different area - has you car ever run smoother, faster, etc. because you washed and waxed it? Because you changed the oil? Mine has :-). And I'm still not immune. I recently had my car detailed and I swear my car runs better. Does it really? Of course not, but my brain perceives it as such. -- maggior Rich - Setup: 2 SB3s, 4 Booms, 1 Duet, 1 Receiver, 1 Touch. SuSE 11.0 Server running SqueezeBoxServer 7.5.0, MusicIP, and SqueezeSlave. Current library stats: 33,060 songs, 2,656 albums, 484 artists. http://www.last.fm/user/maggior maggior's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9080 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=77727 ___ Touch mailing list Touch@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/touch
Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Touch and burn in
Phil - some people believe cables burn-in :) Maybe if you apply upwards of 10kV and several 100s of amps you might see a change to a cable. So trying to straighten someone out of the thought that burn-in of a digital device like the Touch is a myth is a long road if they think their copper changes the way it sounds by apply a few volts to it. Heck is far as they are concerned what happens inside the Touch is nothing short of a freakin miracle. I think the burn-in myth probably started with speakers where burn-in actually does have some merit since you are talking about a device that has an elastic component that does change a good bit depending on the make as it is used. But pretty much everything else is either pretty static or formed within seconds of first use. -- m1abrams m1abrams's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=850 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=77727 ___ Touch mailing list Touch@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/touch
Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Touch and burn in
I'm so far from dead wrong based on science and electronics that I don't know where to begin. But instead I'll just say, +1 to what Phil said. And I also truly believe if it makes one feel better to think that burn-in has made their components sound better, then more power to you. After all, this is all just for fun and personal enjoyment. p.s. Received my TOUCH today and will play with it this weekend. I guess I shouldn't compare it to my Transporter until after the burn-in. ;-) -- garym garym's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=17325 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=77727 ___ Touch mailing list Touch@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/touch
Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Touch and burn in
garym;538993 Wrote: p.s. Received my TOUCH today and will play with it this weekend. I guess I shouldn't compare it to my Transporter until after the burn-in. ;-) But do tell us if it sounds great the first 1/2 hr... -- shevans SB Touch, TeddySB3 (PSU), QED Digit Positron PSU, NVA P90sa passive pre-amp, NVA A40 monoblock's, Fostex FE206E based big purple people eaters! The Caiman+ went back... shevans's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=32505 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=77727 ___ Touch mailing list Touch@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/touch
Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Touch and burn in
I've certainly heard changes in things like new coupling caps in my valve amps,and no I didn't imagine it,because they can sound bass heavy one day,and very toppy the next while they break in.I can't say I noticed any change in the Touch though.Sounded great straight out of the box.Wonder how long they are run for in the factory? -- Ali Tait Ali Tait's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=37387 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=77727 ___ Touch mailing list Touch@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/touch
Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Touch and burn in
pfarrell;538983 Wrote: Phil Leigh wrote: 2) The mere fact that (audio) equipment ALWAYS sounds better after being burned-in really should give you pause for thought. Why would this be? Its clearly the mind resolving the standard buyer's remorse. Nothing more. 4) Human audio memory is rubbish. +1 -- Pat Farrell http://www.pfarrell.com/ No remorse here Pat, I bloody love it! Would that be Buyers Elation? :) -- Gazjam Gazjam's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=18604 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=77727 ___ Touch mailing list Touch@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/touch
Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Touch and burn in
Phil Leigh;538976 Wrote: 2) The mere fact that (audio) equipment ALWAYS sounds better after being burned-in This is the well-known '-practice effect-' (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Practice_Effect). -- Daverz Daverz's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=32335 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=77727 ___ Touch mailing list Touch@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/touch
Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Touch and burn in
Daverz;539083 Wrote: This is the well-known '-practice effect-' (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Practice_Effect). LOL, a David Brin reference! How appropriate on '-Earth-' (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earth_(novel)) Day I've read Earth and the 1st and 2nd Uplift series of books numerous times. -- maggior Rich - Setup: 2 SB3s, 4 Booms, 1 Duet, 1 Receiver, 1 Touch. SuSE 11.0 Server running SqueezeBoxServer 7.5.0, MusicIP, and SqueezeSlave. Current library stats: 33,060 songs, 2,656 albums, 484 artists. http://www.last.fm/user/maggior maggior's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9080 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=77727 ___ Touch mailing list Touch@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/touch
Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Touch and burn in
Gazjam;539118 Wrote: Just a thought... We used to believe the earth was flat, science at the time could even prove it... The physics behind this tech is well defined and tested. The earth being flat was not well defined or tested. Course your statement does support my The SB Touch is nothing short of a freakin mircale :) -- m1abrams m1abrams's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=850 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=77727 ___ Touch mailing list Touch@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/touch
Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Touch and burn in
Gazjam wrote: We used to believe the earth was flat, science at the time could even prove it... The ancient Greeks not only knew that the earth was a sphere, they calculated the diameter and were amazingly accurate. The story of Columbus is a myth, a lot of like burn in for electronics. -- Pat Farrell http://www.pfarrell.com/ ___ Touch mailing list Touch@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/touch
Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Touch and burn in
I can imagine some sort of burn in for speakers when they are new since they have some moving parts. I can imagine letting your equipment warm to the operating temperature might make some difference. Maybe 5 minutes. I can also imagine letting electronics run for a few days when you get them might held you uncover any defects in manufacturing quicker since things typically fail in the first few days. -- pounce pounce's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=12645 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=77727 ___ Touch mailing list Touch@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/touch
Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Touch and burn in
And that graph counts as scientific proof??? The lines aren't even straight! A small glass of warm coke for that one.. Any more? :) back to my OP... I wanted to get some experienced opinions, split down the middle I'd say. Ill see if the Touch/my ears/brain has changed over the next week. Thanks! -- Gazjam Gazjam's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=18604 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=77727 ___ Touch mailing list Touch@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/touch
Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Touch and burn in
Gazjam;539153 Wrote: And that graph counts as scientific proof??? The lines aren't even straight! A small glass of warm coke for that one.. Any more? :) back to my OP... I wanted to get some experienced opinions, split down the middle I'd say. Ill see if the Touch/my ears/brain has changed over the next week. Thanks! It's from a comic strip...it's a joke. -- maggior Rich - Setup: 2 SB3s, 4 Booms, 1 Duet, 1 Receiver, 1 Touch. SuSE 11.0 Server running SqueezeBoxServer 7.5.0, MusicIP, and SqueezeSlave. Current library stats: 33,060 songs, 2,656 albums, 484 artists. http://www.last.fm/user/maggior maggior's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9080 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=77727 ___ Touch mailing list Touch@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/touch
Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Touch and burn in
maggior;539159 Wrote: It's from a comic strip...it's a joke. I did not realize Gazjam was being serious until his last post! :) -- m1abrams m1abrams's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=850 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=77727 ___ Touch mailing list Touch@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/touch
