[TruthTalk] Another Jesus and a different spirit ...
jt: Biblically whenever angels appeared they spoke in line with the rest of scripture and the book of Mormon along with the other two books are 'another gospel'DAVEH: I respectfully disagree. The BoM is that sealed book prophesied by Isaiah. (Is 29:11-18) jt: Not so DaveH, the sealed book spoken of by the prophet Isaiah in Is 29:11-18 is the Scripture. No prophecy of scripture is interpreted independently it must fit in with the rest of scripture and there should be two or more clear witnesses in the rest of the Bible. Isaiah here is speaking of Israel's restoration in the Messianic Age and there are many corresponding scriptures Isa 35:3-6 is one. I've read that JS was upset with what he saw in the churches and can understand this sentiment but he was deceived by the angel and the Jesus of the LDS is 'another Jesus' DAVEH: I'm not sure why you think such, though you are right..I've heard it many times on TT. jt: Probably because as the scriptures say "His sheep recognize His voice and another voice they do not follow" The Jesus of Mormonism is 'another voice' DAVEH: FTR..My Jesus died for me that I will live again. That is one very important part of salvation.to overcome physical death. He also atoned for my sins IF I availeth myself to him and endure to the end...THEN I will "achieve" full salvation. Now understand this, Judy. That I have to take some steps by myself to reach that point where I can return to heaven, it is something I canNOT do myself alone. It is only by virtue of our Lord's grace that I have the opportunity to reach the full potential for which God has foreordained me to obtain. I hope that helps you understand my belief a bit better. (And, I hope I haven't confused you with my explanation!) jt: This sounds a lot like the real but when you add the ascending toward godhood and whole temple ritual thing that is from what I've heard taken from Masonic ritual and this is the old mystery religious stuff, the regenerative principle - it dresses itself differently outwardly but is basically the same as the high places in Israel when they were in apostasy and also what TPW is into. Judy
[TruthTalk] Another Jesus and a different spirit ...
Hi DaveH, Glad to see you are back at home now... [EMAIL PROTECTED]> DAVEH: My latest comments are in BLUE... jt: Biblically whenever angels appeared they spoke in line with the rest of scriptureand the book of Mormon along with the other two books are 'another gospel' DAVEH: I respectfully disagree. The BoM is that sealed book prophesied by Isaiah. (Is 29:11-18) jt: Not so DaveH, the sealed book spoken of by the prophet Isaiah in Is 29:11-18 is the Scripture. DAVEH: Agreed. The question is..which Scripture? I believe it applies to the BoM, which I believe is Scripture too. Now.when you suggest it is "Scripture", I assume you mean that you think it refers to the Bible? How so? Was the Bible sealed? Who and when was the Bible delivered to a learned man who said, "I cannot; for it is sealed"? And who was it delivered to that said he was unlearned? jt: So far as I am concerned (respectfully so) the book of Mormon is extra biblical - the book had already been written - and does not qualify as scripture... and yes the Bible is a sealed book, right now today to a lot of people. Without the Holy Spirit unlocking the meaning and giving spiritual understanding it is a closed volume. God hides things from the wise and prudent and reveals them to babes - also no prophecy of scripture is interpreted independently it must fit with the rest of scripture and there should be two or more clear witnesses in the rest of the Bible. Isaiah here is speaking of Israel's restoration in the Messianic Age and there are many corresponding scriptures Isa 35:3-6 is one. DAVEH: Do you have specific answers to my above questions, Judy? jt: If you mean the name of the person who was unlearned - I don't have one name in particular and many are too proud to admit they are blind (like the Pharisees). They sat in the seat of Moses but when Jesus came in person speaking God's Word they didn't recognize it or Him. So you could say the scriptures were sealed to them even though they were teaching them and believed themselves to be the experts. I've read that JS was upset DAVEH: I don't remember that. I think the word he used was "confused". with what he saw in the churches and can understand this sentiment but he was deceived by the angel DAVEH: The angel you speak of is Jesus Christ himself. and the Jesus of the LDS is 'another Jesus' DAVEH: I respectfully disagree. He is the same Jesus who died on the cross for us. jt: The angel Moroni with the eyeglasses is not the Jesus who died on the cross for us DaveH and the Book of Mormon given to Joseph Smith in upstate NY if I remember correctly is not in harmony with God's Truth. In Galatians Paul writes that if anyone, even an angel of god comes with a gospel other than what we have already received - let him be accursed" DAVEH: I'm not sure why you think such, though you are right..I've heard it many times on TT. jt: Probably because as the scriptures say "His sheep recognize Hisvoice and another voice they do not follow" DAVEH: Reference, please? jt: John 10:4,5 and the Jesus of Mormonism is 'another voice' DAVEH: Once again, I respectfully disagree. jt: DaveH, since you have embraced this other gospel, how do you know which voice you are listening to? DAVEH: FTR..My Jesus died for me that I will live again. That is one very important part of salvation.to overcome physical death. jt: Physical death is not the problem, we will all die physically. It's the second death that should concern you - that is spiritual death. Jesus said not to fear man because all he can do is kill the body. We should fear God who can kill both body and soul. DAVEH: He also atoned for my sins IF I availeth myself to him and endure to the end...THEN I will "achieve" full salvation. Now understand this, Judy. That I have to take some steps by myself to reach that point where I can return to heaven, it is something I canNOT do myself alone. It is only by virtue of our Lord's grace that I have the opportunity to reach the full potential for which God has foreordained me to obtain. I hope that helps you understand my belief a bit better. (And, I hope I haven't confused you with my explanation!) jt: This sounds somewhat like the real but when you add the ascending toward godhood DAVEH: That too is Biblical.."I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High." PS 82:6 .Some on this Forum have denied that "gods" has a divine meaning. However, if you consider the Lord's reply (Jn 10:34) to those who were trying to trap him into a relationship with God, Jesus answered them. jt: The Jews were wanting to stone him for blasphemy because they said he made himself eq
[TruthTalk] Another Jesus and a different spirit ...
DAVEH: My latest comments are in PINK... Judy Taylor wrote: Hi DaveH, Glad to see you are back at home now... [EMAIL PROTECTED]> jt: Biblically whenever angels appeared they spoke in line with the rest of scriptureand the book of Mormon along with the other two books are 'another gospel' DAVEH: Does that mean you have read the BofM, Judy? Or are you basing your opinion on what you've heard from others? jt: I have a copy of the Book of Mormon DaveH but I can't honestly say I have read it, scripture is my priority. DAVEH: I respectfully disagree.The BoM is that sealed book prophesied by Isaiah. (Is 29:11-18) jt: Not so DaveH, the sealed book spoken of by the prophet Isaiah in Is 29:11-18 is the Scripture. DAVEH: Agreed. The question is..which Scripture? I believe it applies to the BoM, which I believe is Scripture too. Now.when you suggest it is "Scripture", I assume you mean that you think it refers to the Bible? How so? Was the Bible sealed? Who and when was the Bible delivered to a learned man who said, "I cannot; for it is sealed"? And who was it delivered to that said he was unlearned? jt: So far as I am concerned (respectfully so) the book of Mormon is extra biblical - the book had already been written - and does not qualify as scripture... and yes the Bible is a sealed book, right now today to a lot of people. Without the Holy Spirit unlocking the meaning and giving spiritual understanding it is a closed volume. God hides things from the wise and prudent and reveals them to babes - also no prophecy of scripture is interpreted independently it must fit with the rest of scripture and there should be two or more clear witnesses in the rest of the Bible. Isaiah here is speaking of Israel's restoration in the Messianic Age and there are many corresponding scriptures Isa 35:3-6 is one.DAVEH: Do you have specific answers to my above questions, Judy? jt: If you mean the name of the person who was unlearned - I don't have one name in particular and many are too proud to admit they are blind (like the Pharisees). They sat in the seat of Moses but when Jesus came in person speaking God's Word they didn't recognize it or Him. So you could say the scriptures were sealed to them even though they were teaching them and believed themselves to be the experts. DAVEH: Your interpretation of Isaiah's comments are much 'looser' than mine. While you believe his prophecy was symbolically fulfilled by the Bible, I believe it was literally filled by the BoM. When I think about the book being delivered to one who is learned, and he says that he cannot read it because it is sealed.how does that sound like the Bible? Have you ever heard account of anybody saying that? jt: No symbolic about it DaveH. I believe it is being fulfilled today and will be in the future, that is, literally fulfilled. And yes, I have heard more than one preacher say that we are presently in a famine for God's Word. You may not understand that it can be a 'dead letter' to some and God's 'living Word' to others. When it is a 'dead letter' it is as a sealed book to that person. I've read that JS was upset DAVEH: I don't remember that. I think the word he used was "confused". with what he saw in the churches and can understand this sentiment but he was deceived by the angel DAVEH: The angel you speak of is Jesus Christ himself. and the Jesus of the LDS is 'another Jesus' DAVEH: I respectfully disagree. He is the same Jesus who died on the cross for us. jt: The angel Moroni with the eyeglasses is not the Jesus who died on the cross for me DaveH and the Book of Mormon given to Joseph Smith in upstate NY if I remember correctly is not in harmony with God's Truth. In Galatians Paul writes that if anyone, even an angel of god comes with a gospel other than what we have already received - let him be accursed" DAVEH: I'm not sure why you think such, though you are right..I've heard it many times on TT. jt: Probably because as the scriptures say "His sheep recognize Hisvoice and another voice they do not follow" DAVEH: Reference, please? jt: John 10:4,5 and the Jesus of Mormonism is 'another voice' DAVEH: Ahh DAVEH: Once again, I respectfully disagree. jt: DaveH, since you have embraced this other gospel, how do you know which voice you are listening to? DAVEH: Because I feel I'm seeing it from both sides. DAVEH: FTR..My Jesus died for me that I will live again. That is one very important part of salvation.to overcome physical death. jt: Physical death is not the problem, we will all die physically. It's the secon
: [TruthTalk] Another Jesus and a different spirit ...
jt: Biblically whenever angels appeared they spoke in line with the rest of scriptureand the book of Mormon along with the other two books are 'another gospel' DAVEH: Does that mean you have read the BofM, Judy? Or are you basing your opinion on what you've heard from others? jt: I have a copy of the Book of Mormon DaveH but I can't honestly say I have read it, scripture is my priority. DAVEH: OK.I understand. Your comments regarding it are then a result of what you've heard others say as opposed to questions that arise from your personal reading of it. jt: I have no reason to read the book of Mormon; I believe it is heresy and that I would be wasting the Lord's time. DAVEH: I respectfully disagree. The BoM is that sealed book prophesied by Isaiah. (Is 29:11-18) jt: Not so DaveH, the sealed book spoken of by the prophet Isaiah in Is 29:11-18 is the Scripture. DAVEH: Agreed. The question is..which Scripture? I believe it applies to the BoM, which I believe is Scripture too. Now.when you suggest it is "Scripture", I assume you mean that you think it refers to the Bible? How so? Was the Bible sealed? Who and when was the Bible delivered to a learned man who said, "I cannot; for it is sealed"? And who was it delivered to that said he was unlearned? jt: So far as I am concerned (respectfully so) the book of Mormon is extra biblical - the book had already been written - and does not qualify as scripture... and yes the Bible is a sealed book, right now today to a lot of people. DAVEH: I respectfully disagree with your assessment. As I see it, in no way has the Bible been sealed. People may misunderstand it, but that does not in itself make it sealed. jt: Why does your print keep getting bigger and bigger DaveH - is it necessary to overemphasize your words - do you them more important or do you have a humvee mentality?? Without the Holy Spirit unlocking the meaning and giving spiritual understanding the Bible it is a closed volume. People can speculate about it and write big thick books that bring them no closer to the Truth than they were before they began. God wants to perform a work of grace in the heart without which noone is able to see him or to know him because he hides things from the wise and prudent and reveals them to babes - also no prophecy of scripture is interpreted independently it must fit with the rest of scripture and there should be two or more clear witnesses in the rest of the Bible. DAVEH: IMHO, the BofM is a second witness of the Bible. jt: You've got to be kidding. The Book of Mormon is totally other and this is the kind of thing the prophet warned of when he wrote Isaiah 8:20. Isaiah 29:11 is speaking of Israel's restoration in the Messianic Age and there are many corresponding scriptures Isa 35:3-6 is one. DAVEH: Lots of experts have poured over the Bible, both in an effort to credit and discredit it. I've never heard any claiming it or the meaning was sealed to them..have you? jt: Not so far but that doesn't mean there haven't been any - I don't have to know ALL things. FTR I don't believe that DavidM is one of those. jt: Probably because as the scriptures say "His sheep recognize His voice and another voice they do not follow" DAVEH: Reference, please? jt: John 10:4,5 and the Jesus of Mormonism is 'another voice' DAVEH: I obviously believe the 'Mormon sheep' are hearing his voice (from both Biblical and extra Biblical) sources and are seeking to follow the Shepherd. There is much Jesus said and did that is not included in the Bible, Judy (Jn 21:25), and I think it is a bit shortsighted to not allow for extra Biblical material that may be relevant. jt: You may think it shortsighted DaveH but we have been warned about it and everyone needs to follow their own conscience on the matter. Jesus has given us a comforter who also leads us into all truth so we are not dependent upon anybody's extra biblical revelation. OTOH we are told to have our senses exercised so that we may discern good from evil and hold fast to that which is good. DAVEH: Once again, I respectfully disagree. jt: DaveH, since you have embraced this other gospel, how do you know which voice you are listening to? DAVEH: Because I feel I'm seeing it from both sides. jt: Just like Eve in the garden... "Hath God said?" If you swallow this you'll be able to see the bigger picture.. The Jews were wanting to stone him for blasphemy because they said he made himself equal with God. DAVEH: EXACTLY! And Jesus pointed out that their own Scripture allows for that. The reason they could not trap him in blaspheme is because Jesus was nothing for which Scripture
[TruthTalk] Another Jesus and a different spirit ...
***DAVEH: My latest post has *** Judy Taylor wrote: Not so DaveH, the sealed book spoken of by the prophet Isaiah in Is 29:11-18 is the Scripture. DAVEH: Agreed. The question is..which Scripture? I believe it applies to the BoM, which I believe is Scripture too. Now.when you suggest it is "Scripture", I assume you mean that you think it refers to the Bible? How so? Was the Bible sealed? Who and when was the Bible delivered to a learned man who said, "I cannot; for it is sealed"? And who was it delivered to that said he was unlearned? jt: So far as I am concerned (respectfully so) the book of Mormon is extra biblical and does not qualify as being scripture.***DAVEH: I agree. - the book had already been written - and does not qualify as scripture... ***DAVEH: I respectfully disagree. Do you have a specific reason why it does not qualify as scripture, or are you just assuming such? jt: I am believing God's Word which says "To the law and to the testimony; if they speak not according to THIS WORD it is because there is no light in them" (Isaiah 8:20 KJV)..and yes the Bible is a sealed book, right now today to a lot of people. DAVEH: I respectfully disagree with your assessment. As I see it, in no way has the Bible been sealed. People may misunderstand it, but that does not in itself make it sealed. jt: Why does your print keep getting bigger and bigger DaveH - is it necessary to overemphasize your words - do you view them as more important than mine or do you have a humvee mentality?? ***DAVEH: LOL...No, Judy. I use very old software that does not plainly distinguish between all the posts on these threads that contain numerous replies. Your replies are very difficult for me to discern, because they get buried with previous hard to separate replies. So, I've tried to make my posts distinctive each time so I can quickly sort out my most recent comments. Then I look just beyond them for your replies. I suspect I sometimes overlook your comments though, because there is not much that differentiates them from the old material. jt: I'm not surprised that they are hard to find because in the light of your gigantic print they are miniscule, probably the way you receive them. It is becoming more and more obvious to me that I am wasting my time because you are full of your own thoughts and anything other is only fodder for the war you are in against the Truth. However, you will not prevail, you need to question some of your own assumptions because it is God who sits on the throne and He WILL have the last Word Without the Holy Spirit unlocking the meaning and giving spiritual understanding the Bible it is a closed volume. ***DAVEH: OK..Now I understand where you are coming from. jt: People can speculate about it and write big thick books that bring them no closer to the Truth than they were before they began. God wants to perform a work of grace in the heart without which noone is able to see him or to know him because he hides things from the wise and prudent and reveals them to babes - also no prophecy of scripture is interpreted independently it must fit with the rest of scripture and there should be two or more clear witnesses in the rest of the Bible. DAVEH: IMHO, the BofM is a second witness of the Bible. jt: You've got to be kidding. The witnesses must be in agreement whereas the Book of Mormon is completely other and teaches things never heard of in Israel. Actually it qualifies as a false prophet which God allows in order to test his people to see if their hearts are fully his. No wonder you don't like this idea. ***DAVEH: No I'm not kidding, Judy. If you do little else, you might take out your copy of the BofM and read the title page. It is only 2 paragraphs long, and probably won't cause you to loose your salvation. :-) jt: I'm not concerned about 'losing my salvation' DaveH but how would it benefit me to read the title page of a counterfeit book? ***DAVEH: IMHO, the BofM does speak according to God's word. jt: One could only say this if they did not understand God's Word to begin with. Isaiah 29:11 is speaking of Israel's restoration in the Messianic Age and there are many corresponding scriptures Isa 35:3-6 is one. ***DAVEH: Like I said before, I take Isaiah's comments about the sealed book far more literally than you do. jt: I take it literally also but not to the point of accepting what God has rejected. DAVEH: I obviously believe the 'Mormon sheep' are hearing his voice (from both Biblical and extra Biblical) sources and are seeking to follow the Shepherd. ht: If the Mormon sheep are following the voice of Joseph Smith then they are not seeking to follow the One True Shepherd. ***DAVEH: I'm not here to force you to do anything your conscience opposes. Let the Holy Spirit be your guide. Since you are relatively new to TT, let me take a moment and explain
Re: [TruthTalk] Another Jesus and a different spirit ...
DAVEH: My latest comments are in BLUE... Judy Taylor wrote: jt: Biblically whenever angels appeared they spoke in line with the rest of scriptureand the book of Mormon along with the other two books are 'another gospel' DAVEH: I respectfully disagree. The BoM is that sealed book prophesied by Isaiah. (Is 29:11-18) jt: Not so DaveH, the sealed book spoken of by the prophet Isaiah in Is 29:11-18 is the Scripture. DAVEH: Agreed. The question is..which Scripture? I believe it applies to the BoM, which I believe is Scripture too. Now.when you suggest it is "Scripture", I assume you mean that you think it refers to the Bible? How so? Was the Bible sealed? Who and when was the Bible delivered to a learned man who said, "I cannot; for it is sealed"? And who was it delivered to that said he was unlearned? No prophecy of scripture is interpreted independently it must fit in with the rest of scripture and there should be two or more clear witnesses in the rest of the Bible. Isaiah here is speaking of Israel's restoration in the Messianic Age and there are many corresponding scriptures Isa 35:3-6 is one. DAVEH: Do you have specific answers to my above questions, Judy? I've read that JS was upset DAVEH: I don't remember that. I think the word he used was "confused". with what he saw in the churches and can understand this sentiment but he was deceived by the angel DAVEH: The angel you speak of is Jesus Christ himself. and the Jesus of the LDS is 'another Jesus' DAVEH: I respectfully disagree. He is the same Jesus who died on the cross for us.DAVEH: I'm not sure why you think such, though you are right..I've heard it many times on TT. jt: Probably because as the scriptures say "His sheep recognize Hisvoice and another voice they do not follow" DAVEH: Reference, please? The Jesus of Mormonism is 'another voice' DAVEH: Once again, I respectfully disagree. DAVEH: FTR..My Jesus died for me that I will live again. That is one very important part of salvation.to overcome physical death. He also atoned for my sins IF I availeth myself to him and endure to the end...THEN I will "achieve" full salvation. Now understand this, Judy. That I have to take some steps by myself to reach that point where I can return to heaven, it is something I canNOT do myself alone. It is only by virtue of our Lord's grace that I have the opportunity to reach the full potential for which God has foreordained me to obtain. I hope that helps you understand my belief a bit better. (And, I hope I haven't confused you with my explanation!) jt: This sounds a lot like the real but when you add the ascending toward godhood DAVEH: That too is Biblical.. "I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High." PS 82:6 .Some on this Forum have denied that "gods" has a divine meaning. However, if you consider the Lord's reply (Jn 10:34) to those who were trying to trap him into a relationship with God, Jesus answered them. ".Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?" From this, it is quite obvious that "gods" in both instances has divine properties. When you consider the overall message of the Bible, Judy, it only makes logical sense. We were created in the image of God (plural). He is known to us by his parental name, "Father". He has given us the tools to become like him.the commandments. He has give us a commandment to do so. (Mt 5:48) Furthermore, he has told us that we shall be like him. (1Jn 3:2) Now, why would you not think you have the potential to become like God? Let me provide a presumed answer for you.because you are a sinner and God is perfect. Is that correct, Judy? Then let me answer that our Beloved Brother, Jesus, has provided a way that we can do so..by his grace, specifically by virtue of his resurrection and atoning sacrifice. and whole temple ritual thing that is from what I've heard taken from Masonic ritual and this is the old mystery religious stuff, the regenerative principle - it dresses itself differently outwardly but is basically the same as the high places in Israel when they were in apostasy and also what TPW is into. Judy DAVEH: From the few things you've said so far, I think you have a lot of misunderstandings about what I believe, Judy. I'm not trying to convert you to Mormonism. Nor am I quoting Latter-day Scripture to you. What I've done above is point out the Bible supports one of my beliefs that you find unacceptable. If you disagree (and I'm pretty sure you do), I'd sure like to know why you think my analysis is wrong. To me (from my LDS biased perspective), it all makes logical sense. I don't understand why Protestants find it so hard to accept the basic message of the Bible as I've tried to explain above. -- ~~~ Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.langlitz.com ~~~ If you wish to receive things I find interesting, I maintain
Re: [TruthTalk] Another Jesus and a different spirit ...
DAVEH: My latest comments are in PINK... Judy Taylor wrote: Hi DaveH, Glad to see you are back at home now... [EMAIL PROTECTED]> jt: Biblically whenever angels appeared they spoke in line with the rest of scriptureand the book of Mormon along with the other two books are 'another gospel' DAVEH: Does that mean you have read the BofM, Judy? Or are you basing your opinion on what you've heard from others? DAVEH: I respectfully disagree.The BoM is that sealed book prophesied by Isaiah. (Is 29:11-18)jt: Not so DaveH, the sealed book spoken of by the prophet Isaiah in Is 29:11-18 is the Scripture. DAVEH: Agreed. The question is..which Scripture? I believe it applies to the BoM, which I believe is Scripture too. Now.when you suggest it is "Scripture", I assume you mean that you think it refers to the Bible? How so? Was the Bible sealed? Who and when was the Bible delivered to a learned man who said, "I cannot; for it is sealed"? And who was it delivered to that said he was unlearned? jt: So far as I am concerned (respectfully so) the book of Mormon is extra biblical - the book had already been written - and does not qualify as scripture... and yes the Bible is a sealed book, right now today to a lot of people. Without the Holy Spirit unlocking the meaning and giving spiritual understanding it is a closed volume. God hides things from the wise and prudent and reveals them to babes - also no prophecy of scripture is interpreted independently it must fit with the rest of scripture and there should be two or more clear witnesses in the rest of the Bible. Isaiah here is speaking of Israel's restoration in the Messianic Age and there are many corresponding scriptures Isa 35:3-6 is one.DAVEH: Do you have specific answers to my above questions, Judy? jt: If you mean the name of the person who was unlearned - I don't have one name in particular and many are too proud to admit they are blind (like the Pharisees). They sat in the seat of Moses but when Jesus came in person speaking God's Word they didn't recognize it or Him. So you could say the scriptures were sealed to them even though they were teaching them and believed themselves to be the experts. DAVEH: Your interpretation of Isaiah's comments are much 'looser' than mine. While you believe his prophecy was symbolically fulfilled by the Bible, I believe it was literally filled by the BoM. When I think about the book being delivered to one who is learned, and he says that he cannot read it because it is sealed.how does that sound like the Bible? Have you ever heard account of anybody saying that? I've read that JS was upset DAVEH: I don't remember that. I think the word he used was "confused". with what he saw in the churches and can understand this sentiment but he was deceived by the angel DAVEH: The angel you speak of is Jesus Christ himself. and the Jesus of the LDS is 'another Jesus' DAVEH: I respectfully disagree. He is the same Jesus who died on the cross for us.jt: The angel Moroni with the eyeglasses is not the Jesus who died on the cross for us DaveH and the Book of Mormon given to Joseph Smith in upstate NY if I remember correctly is not in harmony with God's Truth. In Galatians Paul writes that if anyone, even an angel of god comes with a gospel other than what we have already received - let him be accursed" DAVEH: I'm not sure why you think such, though you are right..I've heard it many times on TT. jt: Probably because as the scriptures say "His sheep recognize Hisvoice and another voice they do not follow" DAVEH: Reference, please?jt: John 10:4,5 and the Jesus of Mormonism is 'another voice' DAVEH: Ahh DAVEH: Once again, I respectfully disagree.jt: DaveH, since you have embraced this other gospel, how do you know which voice you are listening to? DAVEH: Because I feel I'm seeing it from both sides. DAVEH: FTR..My Jesus died for me that I will live again. That is one very important part of salvation.to overcome physical death. jt: Physical death is not the problem, we will all die physically. It's the second death that should concern you - that is spiritual death. Jesus said not to fear man because all he can do is kill the body. We should fear God who can kill both body and soul. DAVEH: He also atoned for my sins IF I availeth myself to him and endure to the end...THEN I will "achieve" full salvation. Now understand this, Judy. That I have to take some steps by myself to reach that point where I can return to heaven, it is something I canNOT do myself alone. It is only by virtue of our Lord's grace that I have the opportunity to reach the full potential for which God has foreordained me to obtain. I hope that helps you understand my belief a bit better. (And, I hope I haven't confused you with my explanation!) jt: This sounds somewhat like the real but when you add the ascending toward godhood DAVEH: That too is Biblical.."I have said, Ye are gods; a
Re: [TruthTalk] Another Jesus and a different spirit ...
DAVEH: My latest comments are in BLACK... [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Judy Taylor wrote: Hi DaveH, Glad to see you are back at home now... [EMAIL PROTECTED]> jt: Biblically whenever angels appeared they spoke in line with the rest of scriptureand the book of Mormon along with the other two books are 'another gospel' DAVEH: Does that mean you have read the BofM, Judy? Or are you basing your opinion on what you've heard from others? jt: I have a copy of the Book of Mormon DaveH but I can't honestly say I have read it, scripture is my priority. DAVEH: OK.I understand. Your comments regarding it are then a result of what you've heard others say as opposed to questions that arise from your personal reading of it. DAVEH: I respectfully disagree. The BoM is that sealed book prophesied by Isaiah. (Is 29:11-18)jt: Not so DaveH, the sealed book spoken of by the prophet Isaiah in Is 29:11-18 is the Scripture. DAVEH: Agreed. The question is..which Scripture? I believe it applies to the BoM, which I believe is Scripture too. Now.when you suggest it is "Scripture", I assume you mean that you think it refers to the Bible? How so? Was the Bible sealed? Who and when was the Bible delivered to a learned man who said, "I cannot; for it is sealed"? And who was it delivered to that said he was unlearned? jt: So far as I am concerned (respectfully so) the book of Mormon is extra biblical - the book had already been written - and does not qualify as scripture... and yes the Bible is a sealed book, right now today to a lot of people. DAVEH: I respectfully disagree with your assessment. As I see it, in no way has the Bible been sealed. People may misunderstand it, but that does not in itself make it sealed. Without the Holy Spirit unlocking the meaning and giving spiritual understanding it is a closed volume. God hides things from the wise and prudent and reveals them to babes - also no prophecy of scripture is interpreted independently it must fit with the rest of scripture and there should be two or more clear witnesses in the rest of the Bible. DAVEH: IMHO, the BofM is a second witness of the Bible. Isaiah here is speaking of Israel's restoration in the Messianic Age and there are many corresponding scriptures Isa 35:3-6 is one.DAVEH: Do you have specific answers to my above questions, Judy? jt: If you mean the name of the person who was unlearned - I don't have one name in particular and many DAVEH: If you carefully read Isaiah's words, he is prophesying a specific instance of the sealed book being presented to two distinct people to be read. Suggesting that it is symbolic obfuscates the truth of what Isaiah is telling us. are too proud to admit they are blind (like the Pharisees). They sat in the seat of Moses but when Jesus came in person speaking God's Word they didn't recognize it or Him. So you could say the scriptures were sealed to them even though they were teaching them and believed themselves to be the experts. DAVEH: Lots of experts have poured over the Bible, both in an effort to credit and discredit it. I've never heard any claiming it or the meaning was sealed to them..have you? As I see it, you are presuming it to be sealed to them because they do not interpret it as you do. Similarly, you might think the Bible is sealed to DavidM, because he does not agree with you on baptism. To me, that is a faulty way of looking at it. DAVEH: Your interpretation of Isaiah's comments are much 'looser' than mine. While you believe his prophecy was symbolically fulfilled by the Bible, I believe it was literally filled by the BoM. When I think about the book being delivered to one who is learned, and he says that he cannot read it because it is sealed.how does that sound like the Bible? Have you ever heard account of anybody saying that?jt: No symbolic about it DaveH. I believe it is being fulfilled today and will be in the future, that is, literally fulfilled. DAVEH: If it is literally being fulfilled, then you should be able to name names of those who Isaiah envisioned. If it applies to many people, then it becomes symbolic. And yes, I have heard more than one preacher say that we are presently in afamine for God's Word. DAVEH: Imagine that! Was he LDS? :-) You may not understand that it can be a 'dead letter' to some and God's'living Word' to others. When it is a 'dead letter' it is as a sealed book to that person. DAVEH: I sure don't see that association. 'Sealed' means one thing, 'dead letter' means another. I just don't think there is a relationship. I've read that JS was upset DAVEH: I don't remember that. I think the word he used was "confused". with what he saw in the churches and can understand this sentiment but he was deceived by the angel DAVEH: The angel you speak of is Jesus Christ himself. and the Jesus of the LDS is 'another Jesus' DAVEH: I respectfully disagree. He is the same Jesus who died on the cross for us. jt: The angel Mor
RE: [TruthTalk] Another Jesus and a different spirit ...
DAVEH: > If you carefully read Isaiah's words, he is prophesying > a specific instance of the sealed book being presented > to two distinct people to be read. Suggesting that it > is symbolic obfuscates the truth of what Isaiah is telling > us. ... Lots of experts have poured over the Bible, both > in an effort to credit and discredit it. I've never heard > any claiming it or the meaning was sealed to them..have > you? As I see it, you are presuming it to be sealed to them > because they do not interpret it as you do. Paul quotes Isaiah 29:14 and attributes it to be talking about the hidden nature of the gospel. "For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent." (1 Corinthians 1:18-19 KJV) So it seems to me that you contradict the teaching of the Bible because of your adherence to the Book of Mormon. How would you resolve this contradiction? For reference: Isa 29:10 For the LORD hath poured out upon you the spirit of deep sleep, and hath closed your eyes: the prophets and your rulers, the seers hath he covered. Isa 29:11 And the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed, which men deliver to one that is learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I cannot; for it is sealed: Isa 29:12 And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I am not learned. Isa 29:13 Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men: Isa 29:14 Therefore, behold, I will proceed to do a marvellous work among this people, even a marvellous work and a wonder: for the wisdom of their wise men shall perish, and the understanding of their prudent men shall be hid. Peace be with you. David Miller, Beverly Hills, Florida. -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: : [TruthTalk] Another Jesus and a different spirit ...
***DAVEH: My latest post has *** Judy Taylor wrote: jt: Not so DaveH, the sealed book spoken of by the prophet Isaiah in Is 29:11-18 is the Scripture.DAVEH: Agreed. The question is..which Scripture? I believe it applies to the BoM, which I believe is Scripture too. Now.when you suggest it is "Scripture", I assume you mean that you think it refers to the Bible? How so? Was the Bible sealed? Who and when was the Bible delivered to a learned man who said, "I cannot; for it is sealed"? And who was it delivered to that said he was unlearned? jt: So far as I am concerned (respectfully so) the book of Mormon is extra biblical ***DAVEH: I agree. - the book had already been written - and does not qualify as scripture... ***DAVEH: I respectfully disagree. Do you have a specific reason why it does not qualify as scripture, or are you just assuming such? and yes the Bible is a sealed book, right now today to a lot of people.DAVEH: I respectfully disagree with your assessment. As I see it, in no way has the Bible been sealed. People may misunderstand it, but that does not in itself make it sealed. jt: Why does your print keep getting bigger and bigger DaveH - is it necessary to overemphasize your words - do you them more important or do you have a humvee mentality?? ***DAVEH: LOL...No, Judy. I use very old software that does not plainly distinguish between all the posts on these threads that contain numerous replies. Your replies are very difficult for me to discern, because they get buried with previous hard to separate replies. So, I've tried to make my posts distinctive each time so I can quickly sort out my most recent comments. Then I look just beyond them for your replies. I suspect I sometimes overlook your comments though, because there is not much that differentiates them from the old material. Without the Holy Spirit unlocking the meaning and giving spiritual understanding the Bible it is a closed volume. ***DAVEH: OK..Now I understand where you are coming from. People can speculate about it and write big thick books that bring them no closer to the Truth than they were before they began. God wants to perform a work of grace in the heart without which noone is able to see him or to know him because he hides things from the wise and prudent and reveals them to babes - also no prophecy of scripture is interpreted independently it must fit with the rest of scripture and there should be two or more clear witnesses in the rest of the Bible. DAVEH: IMHO, the BofM is a second witness of the Bible. jt: You've got to be kidding. ***DAVEH: No I'm not kidding, Judy. If you do little else, you might take out your copy of the BofM and read the title page. It is only 2 paragraphs long, and probably won't cause you to loose your salvation. :-) The Book of Mormon is totally other and this is the kind of thing the prophet warned of when he wrote Isaiah 8:20. ***DAVEH: IMHO, the BofM does speak according to God's word. Isaiah 29:11 is speaking of Israel's restoration in the Messianic Age and there are many corresponding scriptures Isa 35:3-6 is one. ***DAVEH: Like I said before, I take Isaiah's comments about the sealed book far more literally than you do. DAVEH: I obviously believe the 'Mormon sheep' are hearing his voice (from both Biblical and extra Biblical) sources and are seeking to follow the Shepherd. There is much Jesus said and did that is not included in the Bible, Judy (Jn 21:25), and I think it is a bit shortsighted to not allow for extra Biblical material that may be relevant. jt: You may think it shortsighted DaveH but we have been warned about it and everyone needs to follow their own conscience on the matter. ***DAVEH: I'm not here to force you to do anything your conscience opposes. Let the Holy Spirit be your guide. Since you are relatively new to TT, let me take a moment and explain to you why I am here. I am very curious (due to my LDS biases) what Protestants believe, and why they believe the way they do. And, I also try to answer questions of those who want to know what I believe, and why I believe it. Furthermore, I sometimes feel compelled to correct errors and misunderstandings people may have about LDS theology, as best I can with the knowledge I have. Despite what some may think, I'm not here to try to convert you to Mormonism. (Though it wouldn't hurt my feelings if you did!VBG) Jesus has given us a comforter who also leads us into all truth so we are not dependent upon anybody's extra biblical revelation. ***DAVEH: I think you would agree that it is better to have more of God's words than less. Consider how important it is to have the entire Bible, rather than one with fewer than the 66 books now included. IMO, with or without the HS, it is better to have more than less of the Lord's revealed gospel. dh: He is known to us by his parental name, "Father". He has given us the tools to become like him.the c
Re: : [TruthTalk] Another Jesus and a different spirit ...
DAVEH: IF that were a valid explanation for Ps 82:6, then it would not have benefited Jesus to use that passage in defense of his accusers claiming he is God. So, claiming "gods" equates to "judges" removes the divine nature that Jesus used in his defense. Again DaveH puts himself in a place of Authority, over even his own Church authorities. Mormon APOSTLE says Ps 82 refers to Judges! "In Psalm 82:6, judges invested by divine appointment are called 'gods.' To this scripture the Savior referred in His reply to the Jews in Solomon's Porch. Judges so authorized officiated as the representatives of God and are honored by the exalted title 'gods.' Compare the similar appellation applied to Moses (Exo. 4:16; 7:1). Jesus Christ possessed divine authorization, not through the word of God transmitted to Him by man, but as an inherent attribute. The inconsistency of calling human judges 'gods,' and of ascribing blasphemy to the Christ who called Himself the Son of God, would have been apparent to the Jews but for their sin-darkened minds." (James Talmage, Jesus the Christ, page 501). Dave why do you go against your own churches teaching? Does your Bishop know about these aberrent beliefs? Are you trying to start your own splinter group? Is there room for any more groups? There are so many already claiming to be the ONE TRUE Church splintered off from Joe Smith. They can't ALL be true. LDS - RLDS - Church of the Firstborn - Church of Christ I need wisdom to know which is true. The confusion & strife is so great among the various splinter groups, that I can't come to any certain conclusion who was right and who was wrong! You and the General authorities understand the same passages of scripture so differently as to destroy all confidence in settling the question by an appeal to the Bible! I did pray about it and I found out that all their professors were corrupt, and their creeds were an abomination. So I would be careful about starting a new ONE TRUE CHUCH if I was you! You have NO Authority to claim PS 82 teaches godhood Your own Apostle with Authority teaches otherwise! Dave <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: ***DAVEH: My latest post has *** Judy Taylor wrote: jt: Not so DaveH, the sealed book spoken of by the prophet Isaiah in Is 29:11-18 is the Scripture.DAVEH: Agreed. The question is..which Scripture? I believe it applies to the BoM, which I believe is Scripture too. Now.when you suggest it is "Scripture", I assume you mean that you think it refers to the Bible? How so? Was the Bible sealed? Who and when was the Bible delivered to a learned man who said, "I cannot; for it is sealed"? And who was it delivered to that said he was unlearned? jt: So far as I am concerned (respectfully so) the book of Mormon is extra biblical ***DAVEH: I agree. - the book had already been written - and does not qualify as scripture... ***DAVEH: I respectfully disagree. Do you have a specific reason why it does not qualify as scripture, or are you just assuming such? and yes the Bible is a sealed book, right now today to a lot of people.DAVEH: I respectfully disagree with your assessment. As I see it, in no way has the Bible been sealed. People may misunderstand it, but that does not in itself make it sealed. jt: Why does your print keep getting bigger and bigger DaveH - is it necessary to overemphasize your words - do you them more important or do you have a humvee mentality?? ***DAVEH: LOL...No, Judy. I use very old software that does not plainly distinguish between all the posts on these threads that contain numerous replies. Your replies are very difficult for me to discern, because they get buried with previous hard to separate replies. So, I've tried to make my posts distinctive each time so I can quickly sort out my most recent comments. Then I look just beyond them for your replies. I suspect I sometimes overlook your comments though, because there is not much that differentiates them from the old material. Without the Holy Spirit unlocking the meaning and giving spiritual understanding the Bible it is a closed volume. ***DAVEH: OK..Now I understand where you are coming from. People can speculate about it and write big thick books that bring them no closer to the Truth than they were before they began. God wants to perform a work of grace in the heart without which noone is able to see him or to know him because he hides things from the wise and prudent and reveals them to babes - also no prophecy of scripture is interpreted independently it must fit with the rest of scripture and there should be two or more clear witnesses in the rest of the Bible. DAVEH: IMHO, the BofM is a second witness of the Bible. jt: You've got to be kidding. ***DAVEH: No I'm not kidding, Judy. If you do little else, you might take out your copy of the BofM and read the title page. It is only 2 paragraphs long, and probably won't cause you to loose your salvation. :-) The Boo
