Re: [U2] Interesting Article
It would of interest to learn from Rocket about plans (or no plans) for cloud (hosted) U2. --Bill ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Interesting Article
I have come to like U2 over the past few years but an honest question: Why would anyone ever pick U2 beyond familiarity and personal preference? Can anyone think of any situation that another (and in a lot of cases a *far* cheaper) database isn't a better fit? Maybe if U2 had it's own niche like MySQL has with web hosting, there would be a market Rocket could focus on ? ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Interesting Article
You may have answered your own question. Why do YOU like it? It is easy to develop, quick to code, fairly robust query language, and a lot cheaper than the BIG databases (Oracle, DB2, etc). John Israel Senior Programmer/Analyst Dayton Superior Corporation 1125 Byers Road Miamisburg, OH 45342 -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Holt, Jake Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2011 10:26 AM To: U2 Users List Subject: Re: [U2] Interesting Article I have come to like U2 over the past few years but an honest question: Why would anyone ever pick U2 beyond familiarity and personal preference? Can anyone think of any situation that another (and in a lot of cases a *far* cheaper) database isn't a better fit? Maybe if U2 had it's own niche like MySQL has with web hosting, there would be a market Rocket could focus on ? ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Interesting Article
I'm not sure being cheaper than Oracle can really be touted as an advantage, there aren't many things out there that are more expensive than oracle =D. And all of those things you just mentioned are also true of many FREE databases, so again, why pick U2? -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Israel, John R. Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2011 9:31 AM To: 'U2 Users List' Subject: Re: [U2] Interesting Article You may have answered your own question. Why do YOU like it? It is easy to develop, quick to code, fairly robust query language, and a lot cheaper than the BIG databases (Oracle, DB2, etc). John Israel Senior Programmer/Analyst Dayton Superior Corporation 1125 Byers Road Miamisburg, OH 45342 -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Holt, Jake Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2011 10:26 AM To: U2 Users List Subject: Re: [U2] Interesting Article I have come to like U2 over the past few years but an honest question: Why would anyone ever pick U2 beyond familiarity and personal preference? Can anyone think of any situation that another (and in a lot of cases a *far* cheaper) database isn't a better fit? Maybe if U2 had it's own niche like MySQL has with web hosting, there would be a market Rocket could focus on ? ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Interesting article
I respectfully disagree - through the years the few times I've been royally screwed, it's always by a closed-source vendor. I have never made a major commitment to an open-source tool and been burned. Debian, Eclipse, Tomcat, Apache and Postgres have been good to me for a long time. Not saying that open-source lasts forever, but when something does get orphaned, I have more options. http://blogs.computerworlduk.com/open-enterprise/2009/10/open-source-makes-big-gains-at-the-london-stock-exchange/index.htm I think the LSE found a way to justify open-source to their board and regulators... -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of David Jordan Sent: Tuesday, July 12, 2011 7:22 PM To: U2 Users List Subject: Re: [U2] Interesting article Hi Rob Open source has its advantages, but there is the reverse side. I need to know that it has ongoing support if I commit a package on it, I have seen too many people get into trouble when an open source application is no longer supported. Organisations have not been able to apply security patches because their free application cannot support the security patch. There is also the question of security, is open source easier to hack, is it easier to put in back doors. My clients want to know what happens if I get hit by the proverbial bus, I need to justify continuity to them and the open source environment does not provide that continuity. I am not going to be able to put an application into the London Stock exchange based on open source, they could not justify to their board, risk managers and regulators. The cost of supporting open source is sometimes greater than paid for applications. The question to ensure, does U2 provide a value add to my development. Regards David Jordan -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Rob Sobers Sent: Wednesday, 13 July 2011 11:41 AM To: U2 Users List Subject: Re: [U2] Interesting article David, You're correct that U2 users need to be vocal about what they want, but Rocket has to be proactive, too. Surely they have a few analysts on staff that can read Techmeme or attend a few conferences and see for themselves where developers are headed. It's probably not wise to only listen to *current *U2 users anyway. I started to make a list in my head of what I'd ask Rocket for, but then I stopped because everything I'd ask for I can get* *elsewhere...for free...right now. If I were starting a brand new project today, I'd be hard pressed to find a single reason to pick a U2 database over a free, open-source alternative like MongoDB, PostgreSQL, or MySQL which have drivers for almost every language, heaps of documentation and troubleshooting resources online, fast release cycles, and great (free) developer tools. Can anyone else think of one? -Rob The biggest thing for me is accessibility from other languages, because the On Tue, Jul 12, 2011 at 7:02 PM, David Jordan da...@dacono.com.au wrote: Rob your comments are not wrong. However U2 management want to go where they think the market is. As users we don't tell them anything and then complain that they are not mind readers and are not heading in the direction we want to go. As a user group, we give users a voice to be able to set direction. Of course there are a million one views about the future, but we can build a business case based on the wishes of the majority. I have sat down with Rocket and explained how Microsoft Azure could provide a market opportunity and how U2 could work in this environment and I am working with them to look at its feasibility. Others are looking at REST and a range of other APIs. Rocket is not so much ignoring us rather we as users are not talking to Rocket constructively. What is important is to turn this discussion into something constructive. If Rocket asked you what you want, what would you say. David Jordan VP U2UG ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users - IMPORTANT NOTICE: This message is intended only for the addressee and may contain confidential, privileged information. If you are not the intended recipient, you may not use, copy or disclose any information contained in the message. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender by reply e-mail and delete the message. ___ U2
Re: [U2] Interesting article
On 13/07/11 16:15, McGowan, Ian wrote: I respectfully disagree - through the years the few times I've been royally screwed, it's always by a closed-source vendor. I have never made a major commitment to an open-source tool and been burned. Debian, Eclipse, Tomcat, Apache and Postgres have been good to me for a long time. Not saying that open-source lasts forever, but when something does get orphaned, I have more options. Add to which, if you're in that boat, so are a lot of other people. If you rely on a piece of Open Source, you need to make sure you've got one or two members of your staff well known to the project (even if they don't do much). Then when you need something done, they can do it. You only need a couple of users who aren't free-loading, and the project is unlikely to die ... Cheers, Wol ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Interesting article
Not that I'm promoting or selling anything either way... I stumbled upon this just recently. I've spent all of an hour tooling around with it. This may or may not satisfy your yearning for a distributed cloud based MV environment http://devwiki.neosys.com/index.php/Main_Page On Tue, Jul 12, 2011 at 3:46 PM, Tony Gravagno 3xk547...@sneakemail.comwrote: From: Bill Haskett I wonder if this implies that those who U2 are all database gurus? :-) I get the humor but... I need to create a distributed cloud-based MV environment, obviously smaller than Facebook but using the same concept of shards for distributed storage and computing. So far most of the Pick people I talk to have no idea what I'm talking about let alone how to implement it with MV. We're not gurus if we don't speak the same language as the rest of the world. As to old SQL, there is a revolution going on out there and I'm wondering if other MV people have seen this: Look at the data storage for Android, Google App Engine, AmazonDB, etc. All of these platforms and others are using name/value pairs with some relational functionality, but they're not using SQL. Once again we're missing a whole new generation of data hungry applications. While there are still new methods of data storage and retrieval being created all the time, the MV market needs to define a consistent web service / REST API for data access and rule execution, accessible from any client. (That's easy, I have done this many times for various projects and for most MV platforms.) From there, professionals in this community can position as experts to provide applications, DBMS support services, rules in BASIC, hosting, and mentoring for a new generation of people who might like to use BASIC for rules rather than Java, Ruby, Go, or whatever else they're just starting to learn. Yeah... as if... Tony Gravagno Nebula Research and Development TG@ remove.pleaseNebula-RnD.com remove.pleaseNebula-RnD.com/blog Visit PickWiki.com! Contribute! http://Twitter.com/TonyGravagno From:Symeon Breen Some on here will be interested in this. I esp like Gigaom's quote old SQL (as he calls it) is good for nothing and needs to be sent to the home for retired software. After all, he explained, SQL was created decades ago before the web, mobile devices and sensors forever changed how and how often databases are accessed. http://www.eweekeurope.co.uk/news/facebook-needs-major-rewrite-w arns-database-guru-33864 ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users -- John Thompson ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Interesting article
From: Wol You only need a couple of users who aren't free-loading, and the project is unlikely to die ... I agree with Wol and Ian. Most people just free-load, abuse a generous author, and then abandon the project when the author gets burned out, while blaming the open source model for the failure. There is a concept that most people don't understand about FOSS: the free and open part of FOSS imply both an ability and a responsibility to contribute back to the source. Offer to pay FOSS authors something for their effort. Offer to pay some other developer to improve your free (liberty AND beer) and open source code, and then give your updates back to the author. Heck, just offer some documentation to the project website, or dedicate some time to helping other users, to free up the author's time to write code. One rarely sees software with multiple contributors rotting on the vine. More often it's a single burned out author who chooses time with his family over people who nag for changes and give nothing in return. Yeah, I know that sounds preachy, but someone needs to say it in response to this: From David Jordan: I need to know that it has ongoing support if I commit a package on it, I have seen too many people get into trouble when an open source application is no longer supported. Organisations have not been able to apply security patches because their free application cannot support the security patch. C'mon, all of us here know that software is just text that can be changed by anyone with competent skills. People who get into trouble have obviously not looked at the code or hired someone competent to do so. There's no magic in there, nothing that only one person can figure out. Is the cost of switching to new software (from something 'that' important to you) really less than the cost of fixing something you got for free? T ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Interesting article
Tony wrote: ... the MV market needs to define a consistent web service / REST API... Dawn Wolthuis responded: Any clues on how to get any standard that all MV vendors would deploy? I'm thinking this would require third-party software... Glen responded to Dawn: ... there has to be an adopted RFC to define how the comm happens and gives granular detail that can not be misinterpreted by anyone implementing it. Once that is done, it's a matter of building wrappers and interfaces for all of the popular languages. ... More importantly are there more than 3 developers out there willing to suit up and then actually spend time building a language hook? Dawn, we don't need the MV DBMS vendors to provide anything, whether code, consent, approval, or even advocacy. We just need a RFC, created by us the community, which is a spec to define a consistent API. Here is an example of a basic interface which can be implemented in any language: We define a basic connection through a class called mvEnvironment. From an environment we can derive an mvAccount, synonymous with mvDatabase. From a databasee with get a mvFile. And from a file we get a mvItem. In PHP this might look like this, though the same pattern can be applied to Ruby, Java, Go, F#, ObjectiveC, or other common or esoteric languages: $env = new mvEnvironment($connInfo); $db = $env.Login($myAcccountName); $file = $db.FileOpen(CUSTOMER); $rec = $file.Read($ID); $db.Logout(); $name = $rec[NAME]; //... That API is completely DBMS-independent, transport-independent, and language-independent. Based on the $connInfo, the underlying code can use Java, a web service, .NET, C++, along with UniObjects, UOJ, QMClient, MVSP, or any other tools to get into the target system. The underlying connectivity can be coded by anyone who has interest, and a variety of such connectors will allow developers to choose those which are more performant or better suited to specific needs. That's the way the rest of the world works, but someone in this market people keep looking to the MV vendors to not only provide the API but also the supporting implementation. That's completely unnecessary. They can help, and they all do, but we don't need to rely on them for leadership or to create the various language bindings we need. For what it's worth, I already have such a project defined called mvEsperanto, and a PHP binding has been partially coded. I just haven't had the time to publish or maintain it. With so little interest (as Glen attests) even for something that most people can appreciate, it's hard to dedicate time to anything like this - especially without compensation. (Nod to recent comments on FOSS.) T ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Interesting article
Symeon: I wonder if this implies that those who U2 are all database gurus? :-) Bill - Original Message - *From:* syme...@gmail.com *To:* 'U2 Users List' u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org *Date:* 7/12/2011 1:31 AM *Subject:* [U2] Interesting article Some on here will be interested in this. I esp like Gigaom's quote old SQL (as he calls it) is good for nothing and needs to be sent to the home for retired software. After all, he explained, SQL was created decades ago before the web, mobile devices and sensors forever changed how and how often databases are accessed. http://www.eweekeurope.co.uk/news/facebook-needs-major-rewrite-warns-databas e-guru-33864 ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Interesting article
From: Bill Haskett I wonder if this implies that those who U2 are all database gurus? :-) I get the humor but... I need to create a distributed cloud-based MV environment, obviously smaller than Facebook but using the same concept of shards for distributed storage and computing. So far most of the Pick people I talk to have no idea what I'm talking about let alone how to implement it with MV. We're not gurus if we don't speak the same language as the rest of the world. As to old SQL, there is a revolution going on out there and I'm wondering if other MV people have seen this: Look at the data storage for Android, Google App Engine, AmazonDB, etc. All of these platforms and others are using name/value pairs with some relational functionality, but they're not using SQL. Once again we're missing a whole new generation of data hungry applications. While there are still new methods of data storage and retrieval being created all the time, the MV market needs to define a consistent web service / REST API for data access and rule execution, accessible from any client. (That's easy, I have done this many times for various projects and for most MV platforms.) From there, professionals in this community can position as experts to provide applications, DBMS support services, rules in BASIC, hosting, and mentoring for a new generation of people who might like to use BASIC for rules rather than Java, Ruby, Go, or whatever else they're just starting to learn. Yeah... as if... Tony Gravagno Nebula Research and Development TG@ remove.pleaseNebula-RnD.com remove.pleaseNebula-RnD.com/blog Visit PickWiki.com! Contribute! http://Twitter.com/TonyGravagno From:Symeon Breen Some on here will be interested in this. I esp like Gigaom's quote old SQL (as he calls it) is good for nothing and needs to be sent to the home for retired software. After all, he explained, SQL was created decades ago before the web, mobile devices and sensors forever changed how and how often databases are accessed. http://www.eweekeurope.co.uk/news/facebook-needs-major-rewrite-w arns-database-guru-33864 ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Interesting article
On Tue, Jul 12, 2011 at 2:46 PM, Tony Gravagno 3xk547...@sneakemail.comwrote: From: Bill Haskett I wonder if this implies that those who U2 are all database gurus? :-) I get the humor but... I need to create a distributed cloud-based MV environment, obviously smaller than Facebook but using the same concept of shards for distributed storage and computing. So far most of the Pick people I talk to have no idea what I'm talking about let alone how to implement it with MV. Not all non-Pick people know this either, but in both cases, some do. We're not gurus if we don't speak the same language as the rest of the world. Not all of us need to speak all of the same language, but, yes, we do need to have MV folks who speak the language. I have not found that to be a big problem to date (I work with a different vendor now, but I'm guessing there are folks working for U2 who are up to date on this too). As to old SQL, there is a revolution going on out there and I'm wondering if other MV people have seen this: Look at the data storage for Android, Google App Engine, AmazonDB, etc. All of these platforms and others are using name/value pairs with some relational functionality, but they're not using SQL. Once again we're missing a whole new generation of data hungry applications. Yes, many of us have been suggestion (for more than a year and a half at least) that we should position ourselves (MV) to jump under this larger umbrella NoSQL (Not only SQL or yes-no-sql or in some cases No SQL). The MV products are some of the only ones in this arena that are proven. While there are still new methods of data storage and retrieval being created all the time, the MV market needs to define a consistent web service / REST API for data access and rule execution, accessible from any client. Any clues on how to get any standard that all MV vendors would deploy? I'm thinking this would require third-party software and, even then, the vendors might have better solutions for anyone not needing a cross-MV-platform solution (most users of MV systems do not require such). (That's easy, I have done this many times for various projects and for most MV platforms.) From there, professionals in this community can position as experts to provide applications, DBMS support services, rules in BASIC, hosting, and mentoring for a new generation of people who might like to use BASIC for rules rather than Java, Ruby, Go, or whatever else they're just starting to learn. Yeah... as if... Yeah, I don't see it going that route. I do think we could possibly pop up a bit more into the NoSQL playground as an industry. The name is a tad bit unfortunate, but the idea is a good one. --dawn Tony Gravagno Nebula Research and Development TG@ remove.pleaseNebula-RnD.com remove.pleaseNebula-RnD.com/blog Visit PickWiki.com! Contribute! http://Twitter.com/TonyGravagno From:Symeon Breen Some on here will be interested in this. I esp like Gigaom's quote old SQL (as he calls it) is good for nothing and needs to be sent to the home for retired software. After all, he explained, SQL was created decades ago before the web, mobile devices and sensors forever changed how and how often databases are accessed. http://www.eweekeurope.co.uk/news/facebook-needs-major-rewrite-w arns-database-guru-33864 ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users -- Dawn M. Wolthuis Take and give some delight today ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Interesting article
Distributed autosharding cloud based environment - i can recommend Mongo DB -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Tony Gravagno Sent: 12 July 2011 20:47 To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Subject: Re: [U2] Interesting article From: Bill Haskett I wonder if this implies that those who U2 are all database gurus? :-) I get the humor but... I need to create a distributed cloud-based MV environment, obviously smaller than Facebook but using the same concept of shards for distributed storage and computing. So far most of the Pick people I talk to have no idea what I'm talking about let alone how to implement it with MV. We're not gurus if we don't speak the same language as the rest of the world. As to old SQL, there is a revolution going on out there and I'm wondering if other MV people have seen this: Look at the data storage for Android, Google App Engine, AmazonDB, etc. All of these platforms and others are using name/value pairs with some relational functionality, but they're not using SQL. Once again we're missing a whole new generation of data hungry applications. While there are still new methods of data storage and retrieval being created all the time, the MV market needs to define a consistent web service / REST API for data access and rule execution, accessible from any client. (That's easy, I have done this many times for various projects and for most MV platforms.) From there, professionals in this community can position as experts to provide applications, DBMS support services, rules in BASIC, hosting, and mentoring for a new generation of people who might like to use BASIC for rules rather than Java, Ruby, Go, or whatever else they're just starting to learn. Yeah... as if... Tony Gravagno Nebula Research and Development TG@ remove.pleaseNebula-RnD.com remove.pleaseNebula-RnD.com/blog Visit PickWiki.com! Contribute! http://Twitter.com/TonyGravagno From:Symeon Breen Some on here will be interested in this. I esp like Gigaom's quote old SQL (as he calls it) is good for nothing and needs to be sent to the home for retired software. After all, he explained, SQL was created decades ago before the web, mobile devices and sensors forever changed how and how often databases are accessed. http://www.eweekeurope.co.uk/news/facebook-needs-major-rewrite-w arns-database-guru-33864 ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1390 / Virus Database: 1516/3760 - Release Date: 07/12/11 ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Interesting article
Mongo DB is Web Scale Warning: Contains occasional course language. http://www.xtranormal.com/watch/6995033/mongo-db-is-web-scale -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Symeon Breen Sent: Tuesday, July 12, 2011 2:24 PM To: 'U2 Users List' Subject: Re: [U2] Interesting article Distributed autosharding cloud based environment - i can recommend Mongo DB -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Tony Gravagno Sent: 12 July 2011 20:47 To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Subject: Re: [U2] Interesting article From: Bill Haskett I wonder if this implies that those who U2 are all database gurus? :-) I get the humor but... I need to create a distributed cloud-based MV environment, obviously smaller than Facebook but using the same concept of shards for distributed storage and computing. So far most of the Pick people I talk to have no idea what I'm talking about let alone how to implement it with MV. We're not gurus if we don't speak the same language as the rest of the world. As to old SQL, there is a revolution going on out there and I'm wondering if other MV people have seen this: Look at the data storage for Android, Google App Engine, AmazonDB, etc. All of these platforms and others are using name/value pairs with some relational functionality, but they're not using SQL. Once again we're missing a whole new generation of data hungry applications. While there are still new methods of data storage and retrieval being created all the time, the MV market needs to define a consistent web service / REST API for data access and rule execution, accessible from any client. (That's easy, I have done this many times for various projects and for most MV platforms.) From there, professionals in this community can position as experts to provide applications, DBMS support services, rules in BASIC, hosting, and mentoring for a new generation of people who might like to use BASIC for rules rather than Java, Ruby, Go, or whatever else they're just starting to learn. Yeah... as if... Tony Gravagno Nebula Research and Development TG@ remove.pleaseNebula-RnD.com remove.pleaseNebula-RnD.com/blog Visit PickWiki.com! Contribute! http://Twitter.com/TonyGravagno From:Symeon Breen Some on here will be interested in this. I esp like Gigaom's quote old SQL (as he calls it) is good for nothing and needs to be sent to the home for retired software. After all, he explained, SQL was created decades ago before the web, mobile devices and sensors forever changed how and how often databases are accessed. http://www.eweekeurope.co.uk/news/facebook-needs-major-rewrite-w arns-database-guru-33864 ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1390 / Virus Database: 1516/3760 - Release Date: 07/12/11 ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Interesting article
There's a lot of generalizations being made in that article. In my experience with MySQL, it's just not as good as other production-grade SQL alternatives like Microsoft SQL Server, PostgreSQL, or Oracle. I'd classify this a MySQL + big data problem before I'd call it a SQL-as-a-whole + big data problem. It could also be that Facebook's architecture sucks, or they have built up a lot of technical debt in the process of scaling so fast and hiring an army of engineers. I mean, StackOverlow serves 800 HTTP request **per second* */ 95 million page views per month with *2 (yes two) *SQL Server machines. Also, saying that relational databases are a thing of the past pretty ridiculous. Most of the problems we're trying to solve fit the relational model very well. I think you'll find that most people are using NoSQL databases for caches, queuing, etc. I don't get the corollary to MV databases, because I think that'd be the last tool I'd pick for scaling a site like Facebook, but have to agree with the point that if the MV vendors want to ride on the NoSQL wave there has to be better APIs. I looked into creating a Ruby adapter for UniData. After about an hour I wanted to kill myself. And even if the APIs get better, why would anyone pick something like U2, which is expensive, closed source, and has a tiny ecosystem versus any of the dozens of free, open source, popular alternatives? I can't think of anything that U2 would bring to the table over MongoDB, Redis, et. al. I apologize for sounding so negative -- I'm actually rooting for MV databases. I just believe that the MV vendors are still focusing on serving the customers who are locked in and ignoring what's happening everywhere else. -Rob On Tue, Jul 12, 2011 at 4:45 PM, Daniel McGrath dmcgr...@rocketsoftware.com wrote: Mongo DB is Web Scale Warning: Contains occasional course language. http://www.xtranormal.com/watch/6995033/mongo-db-is-web-scale -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Symeon Breen Sent: Tuesday, July 12, 2011 2:24 PM To: 'U2 Users List' Subject: Re: [U2] Interesting article Distributed autosharding cloud based environment - i can recommend Mongo DB -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Tony Gravagno Sent: 12 July 2011 20:47 To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Subject: Re: [U2] Interesting article From: Bill Haskett I wonder if this implies that those who U2 are all database gurus? :-) I get the humor but... I need to create a distributed cloud-based MV environment, obviously smaller than Facebook but using the same concept of shards for distributed storage and computing. So far most of the Pick people I talk to have no idea what I'm talking about let alone how to implement it with MV. We're not gurus if we don't speak the same language as the rest of the world. As to old SQL, there is a revolution going on out there and I'm wondering if other MV people have seen this: Look at the data storage for Android, Google App Engine, AmazonDB, etc. All of these platforms and others are using name/value pairs with some relational functionality, but they're not using SQL. Once again we're missing a whole new generation of data hungry applications. While there are still new methods of data storage and retrieval being created all the time, the MV market needs to define a consistent web service / REST API for data access and rule execution, accessible from any client. (That's easy, I have done this many times for various projects and for most MV platforms.) From there, professionals in this community can position as experts to provide applications, DBMS support services, rules in BASIC, hosting, and mentoring for a new generation of people who might like to use BASIC for rules rather than Java, Ruby, Go, or whatever else they're just starting to learn. Yeah... as if... Tony Gravagno Nebula Research and Development TG@ remove.pleaseNebula-RnD.com remove.pleaseNebula-RnD.com/blog Visit PickWiki.com! Contribute! http://Twitter.com/TonyGravagno From:Symeon Breen Some on here will be interested in this. I esp like Gigaom's quote old SQL (as he calls it) is good for nothing and needs to be sent to the home for retired software. After all, he explained, SQL was created decades ago before the web, mobile devices and sensors forever changed how and how often databases are accessed. http://www.eweekeurope.co.uk/news/facebook-needs-major-rewrite-w arns-database-guru-33864 ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1390 / Virus Database: 1516/3760 - Release Date: 07/12/11
Re: [U2] Interesting article
G-Man: The problem I have with this kind of thing is that it seems that IT controls the concept, not the other way around. Data is data, no matter where it is. One just needs to get it when needed. All throughout the relational world, its the technology that controls the data, not the other way around. I couldn't give a hoot about a distributed, cloud-based MV environment, but, as Mark Brown always says, when you need the data you simply have to get it. You don't need to navigate through customized classes, through checkboxes, out dropdown lists, over sockets, through firewalls, around networks, past bosses then back again...maybe! :-) Again, as we've discussed over the past many years, the licensing schemes offered by MV environments won't allow any of us to jump into the fray of these opportunities. Could you imagine going to U2 with a Facebook killer for multiple devices on a hundred servers and think you could negotiate to pay somewhere close to MySQL? They'd try to squeeze you for 100 licenses on each machine and make darned sure you'd give up on that idea, very quickly! Bill - Original Message - *From:* 3xk547...@sneakemail.com *To:* u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org *Date:* 7/12/2011 12:46 PM *Subject:* Re: [U2] Interesting article From: Bill Haskett I wonder if this implies that those who U2 are all database gurus? :-) I get the humor but... I need to create a distributed cloud-based MV environment, obviously smaller than Facebook but using the same concept of shards for distributed storage and computing. So far most of the Pick people I talk to have no idea what I'm talking about let alone how to implement it with MV. We're not gurus if we don't speak the same language as the rest of the world. As to old SQL, there is a revolution going on out there and I'm wondering if other MV people have seen this: Look at the data storage for Android, Google App Engine, AmazonDB, etc. All of these platforms and others are using name/value pairs with some relational functionality, but they're not using SQL. Once again we're missing a whole new generation of data hungry applications. While there are still new methods of data storage and retrieval being created all the time, the MV market needs to define a consistent web service / REST API for data access and rule execution, accessible from any client. (That's easy, I have done this many times for various projects and for most MV platforms.) From there, professionals in this community can position as experts to provide applications, DBMS support services, rules in BASIC, hosting, and mentoring for a new generation of people who might like to use BASIC for rules rather than Java, Ruby, Go, or whatever else they're just starting to learn. Yeah... as if... Tony Gravagno Nebula Research and Development TG@ remove.pleaseNebula-RnD.com remove.pleaseNebula-RnD.com/blog Visit PickWiki.com! Contribute! http://Twitter.com/TonyGravagno From:Symeon Breen Some on here will be interested in this. I esp like Gigaom'squote old SQL (as he calls it) is good for nothing and needs to be sent to the home for retired software. After all, he explained, SQL was created decades ago before the web, mobile devices and sensors forever changed how and how often databases are accessed. http://www.eweekeurope.co.uk/news/facebook-needs-major-rewrite-w arns-database-guru-33864 ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Interesting article
Rob your comments are not wrong. However U2 management want to go where they think the market is. As users we don't tell them anything and then complain that they are not mind readers and are not heading in the direction we want to go. As a user group, we give users a voice to be able to set direction. Of course there are a million one views about the future, but we can build a business case based on the wishes of the majority. I have sat down with Rocket and explained how Microsoft Azure could provide a market opportunity and how U2 could work in this environment and I am working with them to look at its feasibility. Others are looking at REST and a range of other APIs. Rocket is not so much ignoring us rather we as users are not talking to Rocket constructively. What is important is to turn this discussion into something constructive. If Rocket asked you what you want, what would you say. David Jordan VP U2UG ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Interesting article
Hi Bill There are some options for alternative licensing. Rocket will not stay in business giving away licenses, but they are also not silly in turning away business because of licensing structure. We as a user group need to put a business case to licensing. There are subscription models we could put up, there are cloud based models. We need to talk to Rocket about the options we need. The user group gives an opportunity to show that these are not the wishes of an individual, but the wishes of a community. David Jordan ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Interesting article
David, You're correct that U2 users need to be vocal about what they want, but Rocket has to be proactive, too. Surely they have a few analysts on staff that can read Techmeme or attend a few conferences and see for themselves where developers are headed. It's probably not wise to only listen to *current *U2 users anyway. I started to make a list in my head of what I'd ask Rocket for, but then I stopped because everything I'd ask for I can get* *elsewhere...for free...right now. If I were starting a brand new project today, I'd be hard pressed to find a single reason to pick a U2 database over a free, open-source alternative like MongoDB, PostgreSQL, or MySQL which have drivers for almost every language, heaps of documentation and troubleshooting resources online, fast release cycles, and great (free) developer tools. Can anyone else think of one? -Rob The biggest thing for me is accessibility from other languages, because the On Tue, Jul 12, 2011 at 7:02 PM, David Jordan da...@dacono.com.au wrote: Rob your comments are not wrong. However U2 management want to go where they think the market is. As users we don't tell them anything and then complain that they are not mind readers and are not heading in the direction we want to go. As a user group, we give users a voice to be able to set direction. Of course there are a million one views about the future, but we can build a business case based on the wishes of the majority. I have sat down with Rocket and explained how Microsoft Azure could provide a market opportunity and how U2 could work in this environment and I am working with them to look at its feasibility. Others are looking at REST and a range of other APIs. Rocket is not so much ignoring us rather we as users are not talking to Rocket constructively. What is important is to turn this discussion into something constructive. If Rocket asked you what you want, what would you say. David Jordan VP U2UG ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Interesting article
From: Symeon Breen Distributed autosharding cloud based environment - i can recommend Mongo DB That's a great mainstream solution but it doesn't address the primary concern for anyone in this forum: How do I make that work with my U2 environment? The answer is, you don't, you write a completely separate solution in Mongo and use your U2 system for other purposes. That doesn't help this group. While I can get a Mongo stored procedure to ultimately call BASIC code to process a request, the code to do that is really ugly. Same goes for calling BASIC from a stored proc from any other DB. With that sort of topology, all we're doing is using the MV BASIC engine to process data from another source, and that's not using the power we have available. The challenge for this community would be: How do we use U2 to provide the services which prompted the creation of MongoDB in the first place? People had a need. Other people solved that need. Why didn't this community offer offer similar solutions? My answer to that is that the DBMS companies in this market are still fixated with trying to get the most of the per-seat licensing model, and trying to get business from one another. They're oblivious to the needs of the larger worldwide user/developer base that would rather write tools from scratch than to struggle to find information about this Pick thing that we use. That's a business and marketing issue. It's not technical. When our DBMS vendors look to new audiences, their engineers will start working to solve problems that everyone is having, not just problems that are expressed in this group. Solutions to those problems will make these products mainstream, lower our costs, and help to insure a better future for everyone here. As if... T ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Interesting article
On 7/12/2011 4:06 PM, Dawn Wolthuis wrote: [chop] As to old SQL, there is a revolution going on out there and I'm wondering if other MV people have seen this: Look at the data storage for Android, Google App Engine, AmazonDB, etc. All of these platforms and others are using name/value pairs with some relational functionality, but they're not using SQL. Once again we're missing a whole new generation of data hungry applications. Yes, many of us have been suggestion (for more than a year and a half at least) that we should position ourselves (MV) to jump under this larger umbrella NoSQL (Not only SQL or yes-no-sql or in some cases No SQL). The MV products are some of the only ones in this arena that are proven. The problem goes way below the non-adoption of the NoSQL movement. It's a consistent stale state of emerging and adopting technology. Most of this is driven by shrinking customer bases and therefore a lack of revenue to justify seemingly unjustifiable new development that can incorporate the _required_ technologies. Look how long it took to get industry-wide HTTP support in MV. It should have _never_ taken that long to get enterprise stability in the web world. .NET is just now catching on as a major investment for development framework? While there are still new methods of data storage and retrieval being created all the time, the MV market needs to define a consistent web service / REST API for data access and rule execution, accessible from any client. Any clues on how to get any standard that all MV vendors would deploy? I'm thinking this would require third-party software and, even then, the vendors might have better solutions for anyone not needing a cross-MV-platform solution (most users of MV systems do not require such). Been there, done that and saw no interest. It will take code soldiers willing to consistently rush the lines and bash down the doors at all of the DB vendors until they realize that we aren't going to stop until we get what we want. Before that happens, though, there has to be an adopted RFC to define how the comm happens and gives granular detail that can not be misinterpreted by anyone implementing it. Once that is done, it's a matter of building wrappers and interfaces for all of the popular languages. Want the unfinished scrap of an MV ASCII protocol RFC I started back in 2002? More importantly are there more than 3 developers out there willing to suit up and then actually spend time building a language hook? (That's easy, I have done this many times for various projects and for most MV platforms.) From there, professionals in this community can position as experts to provide applications, DBMS support services, rules in BASIC, hosting, and mentoring for a new generation of people who might like to use BASIC for rules rather than Java, Ruby, Go, or whatever else they're just starting to learn. Yeah... as if... Yeah, I don't see it going that route. I do think we could possibly pop up a bit more into the NoSQL playground as an industry. The name is a tad bit unfortunate, but the idea is a good one. --dawn GlenB ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Interesting article
I don't know if I buy the arguments against open source for what we're talking about. We're not talking about a college kid's weekend project on Github. MySQL has Oracle behind it and its the most popular database in the world. Something tells me its not going away. MongoDB has enterprise support from it's corporate entity, 10gen, which is venture backed. Why wouldn't you be able to security patch an open source project? That's the beauty of it -- you can always fork it and patch it, even if the maintainer does't accept your patch. I've been in situations with U2 specifically where I couldn't get them to plug a security hole in a timely fashion and there was absolutely no way I could mitigate the problem. I'll give you a half-a-point on the hackability point :-). But how do you think most of the major banks get away with running Linux and Apache on their servers? -Rob On Tue, Jul 12, 2011 at 10:21 PM, David Jordan da...@dacono.com.au wrote: Hi Rob Open source has its advantages, but there is the reverse side. I need to know that it has ongoing support if I commit a package on it, I have seen too many people get into trouble when an open source application is no longer supported. Organisations have not been able to apply security patches because their free application cannot support the security patch. There is also the question of security, is open source easier to hack, is it easier to put in back doors. My clients want to know what happens if I get hit by the proverbial bus, I need to justify continuity to them and the open source environment does not provide that continuity. I am not going to be able to put an application into the London Stock exchange based on open source, they could not justify to their board, risk managers and regulators. The cost of supporting open source is sometimes greater than paid for applications. The question to ensure, does U2 provide a value add to my development. Regards David Jordan -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Rob Sobers Sent: Wednesday, 13 July 2011 11:41 AM To: U2 Users List Subject: Re: [U2] Interesting article David, You're correct that U2 users need to be vocal about what they want, but Rocket has to be proactive, too. Surely they have a few analysts on staff that can read Techmeme or attend a few conferences and see for themselves where developers are headed. It's probably not wise to only listen to *current *U2 users anyway. I started to make a list in my head of what I'd ask Rocket for, but then I stopped because everything I'd ask for I can get* *elsewhere...for free...right now. If I were starting a brand new project today, I'd be hard pressed to find a single reason to pick a U2 database over a free, open-source alternative like MongoDB, PostgreSQL, or MySQL which have drivers for almost every language, heaps of documentation and troubleshooting resources online, fast release cycles, and great (free) developer tools. Can anyone else think of one? -Rob The biggest thing for me is accessibility from other languages, because the On Tue, Jul 12, 2011 at 7:02 PM, David Jordan da...@dacono.com.au wrote: Rob your comments are not wrong. However U2 management want to go where they think the market is. As users we don't tell them anything and then complain that they are not mind readers and are not heading in the direction we want to go. As a user group, we give users a voice to be able to set direction. Of course there are a million one views about the future, but we can build a business case based on the wishes of the majority. I have sat down with Rocket and explained how Microsoft Azure could provide a market opportunity and how U2 could work in this environment and I am working with them to look at its feasibility. Others are looking at REST and a range of other APIs. Rocket is not so much ignoring us rather we as users are not talking to Rocket constructively. What is important is to turn this discussion into something constructive. If Rocket asked you what you want, what would you say. David Jordan VP U2UG ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Interesting article
David, I appreciate the tone and the messages that you present here. You're right that there are appropriate approaches and vectors to product management and development. I submit however that these forums are not merely suited for community self-help, but they can and should serve as a conduit of information and ideas between Rocket and its user/developer base. _This_ is where the more active community hangs out, so _this_ is one place amongst others where Rocket should take its place as a leader and as a partner. If they choose not to use this medium to discuss market needs, so be it. If they're discussing APIs and cloud implementations with U2UG, great. From my not-so-isolated perspective, if I don't see them doing anything in these areas, then I don't think it's unreasonable for me or others to assume they're not really doing much in these areas. Most companies talk it up when they're doing something productive rather than allowing their user base to assume otherwise. Communicate here or somewhere else, but communicate something, somewhere. Just sayin... T ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Interesting article (pro mobile web) vs mobile app -relating to previous discussion
My first reaction to Brian's post is that it's time for this old dog to hang up the leash and retire. However, there are still many sites out there still using dumb terminals, and have never been given the opportunity to see what a really good CUI can be. So, I guess I'll keep the old shingle out a while longer. I've never gotten into web development and all the other glitzy tools out there. I'm just using 33 years of solid MV experience to support users who need to get the job done. I agree with Tony that we old dogs with the old Fords need to collaborate with the new guys with the fancy, shiny Ferraris. ;^) Regards, Charlie Noah Charles W. Noah Associates cwn...@comcast.net http://www.linkedin.com/in/charlienoah The views and opinions expressed herein are my own (Charlie Noah) and do not necessarily reflect the views, positions or policies of any of my former, current or future employers, employees, clients, friends, enemies or anyone else who might take exception to them. On 06-19-2011 5:20 PM, Tony Gravagno wrote: I feel compelled to add a big RightOn! to Brian's observations. The world has gone from treating programmers like gurus to treating them like a low-cost and expendable commodity. A company gets a web developer who may know something about HTML and scripting (or they may just know drag-n-drop tools) and the awesome power of glitz makes management feel empowered to dump the business rules people and keep the people who make everything pretty. Over some years we've seen decreasing quality in software which is very pretty but lacks substance. Many UI developers have had time to hone their back-end coding skills to address the issues, while people who already have these skills are still wondering what happened to their world. If you don't have time to learn the skills on the other side of the fence, you must learn how to collaborate with people on the other side to achieve your common goals. An increasing amount of my time these days is spent in this area, helping core developers to understand how to communicate with GUI people and how to prepare their code for a UI which they know nothing about. They must recognize that while they might feel like they need to learn everything about the other side, that there usually isn't time. Projects seem to start moving forward when these people finally give up on trying to know everything there is. T From: Brian Leach It's been clear for some time that the next generation of developers are all going to be web designers first and core developers second. We're not alone in the difficulties of trying to recruit new developers to the real work at the back-end: old SQLites have been moaning for some time about the lack of talented new blood entering their industry that can actually understand the difference between running a SQL wizard and producing a workable, scalable and robust solution. ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Interesting article (pro mobile web) vs mobile app -relating to previous discussion
Hi Charlie: I've trained this old dog to learn Java in the last 3 years and have made many a change to our Eclipse based editor, developer, resizer and installer. I've trained 4 of our old dog staff members as well to learn HTML, JavaScript and Eclipse. Fortunately, all of them picked up the new languages to various degrees and are quite productive using our Eclipse plug-ins. I will be teaching at July's CMUG meeting more about Eclipse, continuous compile and version control. So old dogs can learn new tricks. I'm currently porting one of our drag and drop applications from the Web to an iPad. Unfortunately the JavaScript that works in the Web fails on the iPad because there are no mouse events to capture. I am looking at several tools that have been mentioned before to help me create the code, because the one thing I have learned is this old dog does not recreate the wheel. Regards, Doug www.u2logic.com Embracing change like Eclipse U2 Editor with continuous compile ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Interesting article (pro mobile web) vs mobile app -relating to previous discussion
It is not an issue of old dogs vs young dogs. It is about the separation of presentation and business logic. The U2 applications are the business logic, the html, java, .Net are the presentation layer. All the young people are caught up on the presentation layer and are cheap. What businesses are starting to struggle with is the development of the backend business logic. What people need to work out is how to sell that they are the backend solution providers and modify their applications to talk to a presentation layer that is done by someone else probably in India. There are many successful U2 applications out there that have the business logic written in u2 Basic and a presentation layer written in java, .Net, html, etc David Jordan ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Interesting article (pro mobile web) vs mobile app - relating to previous discussion
Good article though it's also missed out the most popular toolkits: Appcelerator Titanium (webkit based) Adobe Air (webkit based) Unify (webkit AND adobe air based) .. hmm, think a pattern is emerging here .. Though it does mention PhoneGap which is - guess what - webkit based. It's been clear for some time that the next generation of developers are all going to be web designers first and core developers second. We're not alone in the difficulties of trying to recruit new developers to the real work at the back-end: old SQLites have been moaning for some time about the lack of talented new blood entering their industry that can actually understand the difference between running a SQL wizard and producing a workable, scalable and robust solution. But it's definitely time to update your javascript know-how. Brian -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of George Gallen Sent: 15 June 2011 21:56 To: U2 Users List Subject: [U2] Interesting article (pro mobile web) vs mobile app - relating to previous discussion http://www.infoworld.com/d/mobile-technology/13-essential-programming-tools- the-mobile-web-246?source=IFWNLE_nlt_mobilehdwr_2011-06-15 George Gallen Senior Programmer/Analyst Accounting/Data Division, EDI Administrator ggal...@wyanokegroup.com ph:856.848.9005 Ext 220 The Wyanoke Group http://www.wyanokegroup.com ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Interesting article (pro mobile web) vs mobile app -relating to previous discussion
I feel compelled to add a big RightOn! to Brian's observations. The world has gone from treating programmers like gurus to treating them like a low-cost and expendable commodity. A company gets a web developer who may know something about HTML and scripting (or they may just know drag-n-drop tools) and the awesome power of glitz makes management feel empowered to dump the business rules people and keep the people who make everything pretty. Over some years we've seen decreasing quality in software which is very pretty but lacks substance. Many UI developers have had time to hone their back-end coding skills to address the issues, while people who already have these skills are still wondering what happened to their world. If you don't have time to learn the skills on the other side of the fence, you must learn how to collaborate with people on the other side to achieve your common goals. An increasing amount of my time these days is spent in this area, helping core developers to understand how to communicate with GUI people and how to prepare their code for a UI which they know nothing about. They must recognize that while they might feel like they need to learn everything about the other side, that there usually isn't time. Projects seem to start moving forward when these people finally give up on trying to know everything there is. T From: Brian Leach It's been clear for some time that the next generation of developers are all going to be web designers first and core developers second. We're not alone in the difficulties of trying to recruit new developers to the real work at the back-end: old SQLites have been moaning for some time about the lack of talented new blood entering their industry that can actually understand the difference between running a SQL wizard and producing a workable, scalable and robust solution. ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Interesting article (pro mobile web) vs mobile app - relating to previous discussion
All good stuff -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of George Gallen Sent: 15 June 2011 21:56 To: U2 Users List Subject: [U2] Interesting article (pro mobile web) vs mobile app - relating to previous discussion http://www.infoworld.com/d/mobile-technology/13-essential-programming-tools- the-mobile-web-246?source=IFWNLE_nlt_mobilehdwr_2011-06-15 George Gallen Senior Programmer/Analyst Accounting/Data Division, EDI Administrator ggal...@wyanokegroup.com ph:856.848.9005 Ext 220 The Wyanoke Group http://www.wyanokegroup.com ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1382 / Virus Database: 1513/3705 - Release Date: 06/15/11 ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Interesting article (pro mobile web) vs mobile app - relating to previous discussion
Both installable apps and browser UIs have their place in the mobile world. There are pros and cons with each option. As with everything, it's a matter of understanding the audience and the technology, and selecting the right tools for the job. What's important to remember is that it all works with your U2 system. Know yourself. Know the enemy. Know the terrain - Sun Tzu ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
