Re: about empathy as the default IM application
On 07/06/2009 06:15 PM, (``-_-´´) -- BUGabundo wrote: Olá Mackenzie e a todos. On Tuesday 16 June 2009 22:33:07 Mackenzie Morgan wrote: I don't actually know anybody that used OOo on Windows before they used it on Linux. I did, and I've set *many* windows users to use OOo, even if they never run linux in their lives! I did :) -- Sincerely Yours, John Vivirito https://launchpad.net/~gnomefreak https://wiki.ubuntu.com/JohnVivirito Linux User# 414246 How can i get lost, if i have no where to go -- Metallica from Unforgiven III signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: about empathy as the default IM application
Olá Mackenzie e a todos. On Tuesday 16 June 2009 22:33:07 Mackenzie Morgan wrote: I don't actually know anybody that used OOo on Windows before they used it on Linux. I did, and I've set *many* windows users to use OOo, even if they never run linux in their lives! -- Hi, I'm BUGabundo, and I am Ubuntu (whyubuntu.com) (``-_-´´) http://LinuxNoDEI.BUGabundo.net Linux user #443786GPG key 1024D/A1784EBB http://BUGabundo.net signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: about empathy as the default IM application
On Thu, Jun 18, 2009 at 20:14, Danny Piccirillo danny.picciri...@ubuntu.com wrote: On Wed, Jun 17, 2009 at 02:46, Martin Pitt martin.p...@ubuntu.com wrote: Danny Piccirillo [2009-06-17 2:22 -0400]: I'm noticing that in the latest daily build of Ubuntu, Pidgin in still included, who makes the actual change and when will that happen? I went through the MIRs last week, and changed the seeds now. It should happen on tomorrow's daily CDs. Martin I tried both yesterday's and today's liveCD and Pidgin was still included as the default and when i did an update and upgrade i got this: The following packages are RECOMMENDED but will NOT be installed: empathy It seems ubuntu-desktop recommends Empathy but still only includes Pidgin, so it is not actually included in Karmic yet. Who can fix this? We need to iron out as many bugs as possible! -- Martin Pitt| http://www.piware.de Ubuntu Developer (www.ubuntu.com) | Debian Developer (www.debian.org) -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss -- http://www.google.com/profiles/danny.piccirillo -- http://www.google.com/profiles/danny.piccirillo -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: about empathy as the default IM application
Danny Piccirillo [2009-06-19 4:31 -0400]: It seems ubuntu-desktop recommends Empathy but still only includes Pidgin, so it is not actually included in Karmic yet. Who can fix this? We need to iron out as many bugs as possible! The CDs didn't build because of missing dependencies, see http://people.ubuntu.com/~ubuntu-archive/livefs-build-logs/karmic/ubuntu/latest/livecd-20090619-i386.out I updated https://launchpad.net/bugs/388898 with the current status, this needs some serious work until it will work, I'm afraid. Martin -- Martin Pitt| http://www.piware.de Ubuntu Developer (www.ubuntu.com) | Debian Developer (www.debian.org) -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Browser chat (was Re: about empathy as the default IM application)
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Danny Piccirillo wrote on 17/06/09 21:13: ... What would Midori need to replace Firefox? It has plugin support, so let's forget about the number of actual plugins (similar to Empathy vs Pidgin, it would be unreasonable to expect that gap to close before we make a change), since the major ones seem to have been ported. What does Firefox have that Midori doesn't which keeps it from being the default browser in Ubuntu? My personal opinion only: 1. An obvious and/or well-marketed name. 2. An obvious and/or well-marketed name. (Seriously.) 3. An icon that features a blue globe. 4. Integrated search that is easy to find and actually works. 5. A toolbar that is compact and attractive by default. 6. A bookmarks interface that is understandable by default. 7. An English translation. (Midori uses the non-existent words Tabbar, Navigationbar, and Userstyles, among others.) 8. Well-presented graphs showing how much faster it is than Firefox. 9. A private browsing mode that actually works. 10. Print preview. 11~20. Equivalents, either built in or as easily-installable extensions, to the ten most popular Firefox extensions. It is possible that some of these items have been addressed since the version of Midori available in Ubuntu 9.04. But at the same time, the list of requirements to displace Firefox 3.5 would naturally be steeper than the list of requirements to replace Firefox 3.0. Cheers - -- Matthew Paul Thomas http://mpt.net.nz/ -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEYEARECAAYFAko7cuYACgkQ6PUxNfU6ecpt/gCgmNk91NlAugsTmyzMn2lXm1eD Z/4AoIbCxa4ggAo2+IlleqggclJawS7A =v+VY -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: about empathy as the default IM application
Peteris Krisjanis wrote: I like this idea. This could be not only limited to Pidgin, but other software, like Xchat, for example. Go ahead, create blueprint for this. With apologies for the delay, please see: https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/install-programs-from-migration-assistant Comments and additional applications would be most welcome! - Andrew -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: about empathy as the default IM application
Thanks for these links. Now you remind me, I do remember a flurry of activity in August, which I'd put out of my mind when it didn't get any traction. I'll try to listen in during the next UDS, but it looks like there aren't many archives kept around for those of us that want to go in and see what happened in the past. Is it worth asking Canonical to archive the IRC logs next time, and to convert the streams to OGG format for later downloading? - Andrew -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
UDS Remote Participation (Was Re: about empathy as the default IM application)
On Fri, Jun 19, 2009 at 8:00 AM, Andrew Sayersandrew-ubuntu-de...@pileofstuff.org wrote: I'll try to listen in during the next UDS, but it looks like there aren't many archives kept around for those of us that want to go in and see what happened in the past. Is it worth asking Canonical to archive the IRC logs next time, and to convert the streams to OGG format for later downloading? I also think it would be nice if the audio streams could be archived. It would make it easier for people out of timezone to keep up on what goes on. How feasible would this be for future UDSs? Also, I wonder if there's been any progress with the plenary session videos for UDS Karmic... The only videos I seem to be able to find are from karaoke. While they're pretty entertaining, I still hope to watch some more informative videos. =) - Andrew Starr-Bochicchio -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: about empathy as the default IM application
Il giorno mer, 17/06/2009 alle 14.40 -0400, Mackenzie Morgan ha scritto: Daniel would know better, but based on what he's explained: I'd guess Empathy would deal better with audio than Skype would simply because Empathy doesn't try to abuse the ALSA API or do silly things to /proc like Skype does...and I *think* it's PulseAudio-aware, unlike Skype. Skype is pulse-aware, it's just that it's broken. A bit like jaunty with intel cards :) But they are not working to improve it. OTOH, the audio quality of an alsa-abusing skype call is very good. Last time I *managed* to make a call with ekiga, it was not even remotely the same. But I hope telepathy is going to be better. V. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: about empathy as the default IM application
On Wed, Jun 17, 2009 at 02:46, Martin Pitt martin.p...@ubuntu.com wrote: Danny Piccirillo [2009-06-17 2:22 -0400]: I'm noticing that in the latest daily build of Ubuntu, Pidgin in still included, who makes the actual change and when will that happen? I went through the MIRs last week, and changed the seeds now. It should happen on tomorrow's daily CDs. Martin I tried both yesterday's and today's liveCD and Pidgin was still included as the default and when i did an update and upgrade i got this: The following packages are RECOMMENDED but will NOT be installed: empathy -- Martin Pitt| http://www.piware.de Ubuntu Developer (www.ubuntu.com) | Debian Developer (www.debian.org) -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss -- http://www.google.com/profiles/danny.piccirillo -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: about empathy as the default IM application
I guess my previous message wasn't clear - I'm not making an argument here from personal preference, I'm trying to file a bug in Ubuntu itself. Specifically, that dropping Pidgin will cause a regression in the user experience for migraters. I'm also not arguing that migraters are incapable of learning new things, just that they shouldn't be asked to learn a new IM program at the same time as they're learning where their start menu went. I would have no problem, for example, with asking updaters whether they wanted to switch to Empathy. This decision was made at UDS with no input from, or output to, the wider community. Brainstorm has never heard of Empathy, and I've never seen it get more than luke warm support on this list. While I agree with UDS in general, saying at UDS it was already decided that Empathy would ship with Karmic the decision has already been made for us goes completely against the grain of open source development. - Andrew -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: about empathy as the default IM application
I'm noticing that in the latest daily build of Ubuntu, Pidgin in still included, who makes the actual change and when will that happen? On Wed, Jun 17, 2009 at 02:06, Andrew Sayers andrew-ubuntu-de...@pileofstuff.org wrote: I guess my previous message wasn't clear - I'm not making an argument here from personal preference, I'm trying to file a bug in Ubuntu itself. Specifically, that dropping Pidgin will cause a regression in the user experience for migraters. I'm also not arguing that migraters are incapable of learning new things, just that they shouldn't be asked to learn a new IM program at the same time as they're learning where their start menu went. I would have no problem, for example, with asking updaters whether they wanted to switch to Empathy. This decision was made at UDS with no input from, or output to, the wider community. Brainstorm has never heard of Empathy, and I've never seen it get more than luke warm support on this list. While I agree with UDS in general, saying at UDS it was already decided that Empathy would ship with Karmic the decision has already been made for us goes completely against the grain of open source development. - Andrew -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss Most new users are switching straight from a client like AIM, MSN, or Yahoo, not Pidgin, and Empathy was chosen to replace Pidgin because it is more friendly for those new users. -- http://www.google.com/profiles/danny.piccirillo -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: about empathy as the default IM application
Danny Piccirillo [2009-06-17 2:22 -0400]: I'm noticing that in the latest daily build of Ubuntu, Pidgin in still included, who makes the actual change and when will that happen? I went through the MIRs last week, and changed the seeds now. It should happen on tomorrow's daily CDs. Martin -- Martin Pitt| http://www.piware.de Ubuntu Developer (www.ubuntu.com) | Debian Developer (www.debian.org) -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: about empathy as the default IM application
I think it is quite clear that so called 'regressions' about Empathy is more like 'We are so used to Pidgin, let it be there'. Yes, there are bugs and they should be fixed. And I am quite sure they will be. Empathy team seems to me are aiming for more concrete desktop experience and have done their homework well. Also being solely as GNOME application helps it. While Pidgin has to find middle ground for various OSes. It is not good or bad, they just have different aims. First of all - not having popup windows - it is a must. It fits so perfectly with Ubuntu new notification system. You get message, first system notifies you, then you can click and get it. It is annoying to have new window - and I don't care if its under or over popup - opened just because someone ping me. It is Skype default behaviour and it actually makes sense. Also I really don't see how Empathy style IM app can implement IRC right. Empathy guys know this and there are plans to make seperate IRC application using Telepathy as framework. More or less I think Empathy is really way to go. Just my two user cents, Peter. 2009/6/17 Martin Pitt martin.p...@ubuntu.com: Danny Piccirillo [2009-06-17 2:22 -0400]: I'm noticing that in the latest daily build of Ubuntu, Pidgin in still included, who makes the actual change and when will that happen? I went through the MIRs last week, and changed the seeds now. It should happen on tomorrow's daily CDs. Martin -- Martin Pitt | http://www.piware.de Ubuntu Developer (www.ubuntu.com) | Debian Developer (www.debian.org) -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: about empathy as the default IM application
What I meant that Empathy, maybe not complete now, but it is the way to go, it fits more in scheme of things for Ubuntu and GNOME. So it felt to me that some of arguments presented in this thread were more about keeping Pidgin, not about problems of Empathy which sure must be addressed before final release of Karmic. I didn't addressed your particular post, though, just 'feeling' of this thread. Cheers, Peter. 2009/6/17 Andrew Sayers andrew-ubuntu-de...@pileofstuff.org: Peteris Krisjanis wrote: I think it is quite clear that so called 'regressions' about Empathy is more like 'We are so used to Pidgin, let it be there'. Yes, there are bugs and they should be fixed. And I am quite sure they will be. If you're saying that the complaint is about a specific bug in Empathy, or about the interests of current Ubuntu users such as myself, or about nobody ever learning a new interface, then I'm not explaining myself properly. Could you point to exactly what I said that gave that impression? I'd be glad to clarify anything that came across wrongly. - Andrew -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss -- mortigi tempo Pēteris Krišjānis -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: about empathy as the default IM application
On 16/06/2009 Ken VanDine wrote: If you really need OTR, you can install pidgin. All the users I've shown OTR to agreed it's an extremely good thing to have. You can not know if your boss is watching you. Cryptography tools available for the masses in an easy way is another way to distinguish a free software distribution from . Ops, win is just tree letters isn't it :) -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: about empathy as the default IM application
On Wed, 2009-06-17 at 14:18 +0200, Vincenzo Ciancia wrote: On 16/06/2009 Ken VanDine wrote: If you really need OTR, you can install pidgin. All the users I've shown OTR to agreed it's an extremely good thing to have. You can not know if your boss is watching you. Cryptography tools available for the masses in an easy way is another way to distinguish a free software distribution from . Ops, win is just tree letters isn't it :) I agree and use OTR all the time, however, if more people start using Empathy then hopefully an OTR plugin will be ported sooner rather than later. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: about empathy as the default IM application
On Wed, Jun 17, 2009 at 2:06 AM, Andrew Sayers andrew-ubuntu-de...@pileofstuff.org wrote: I guess my previous message wasn't clear - I'm not making an argument here from personal preference, I'm trying to file a bug in Ubuntu itself. Specifically, that dropping Pidgin will cause a regression in the user experience for migraters. I'm also not arguing that migraters are incapable of learning new things, just that they shouldn't be asked to learn a new IM program at the same time as they're learning where their start menu went. I would have no problem, for example, with asking updaters whether they wanted to switch to Empathy. This decision was made at UDS with no input from, or output to, the wider community. Brainstorm has never heard of Empathy, and I've never seen it get more than luke warm support on this list. While I agree with UDS in general, saying at UDS it was already decided that Empathy would ship with Karmic the decision has already been made for us goes completely against the grain of open source development. - Andrew I think we're missing some context. At least I was. Correct me if I'm wrong, but what you're trying to say is: When migrating users from Windows to Ubuntu, you start by migrating them to existing cross platform applications, like Pidgin. If Pidgin is removed as the default IM application, further training will be needed for the new Ubuntu users. Fair enough, but you have some time to plan for this. I think the difficulty for you is that in Ubuntu we're looking for the best *Ubuntu* experience, not necessarily the best migration experience. It would be nice if those two interests were 100% aligned, but sadly they are not, in this specific case. Regarding UDS, and the decisions made there, I dont see how those sessions could be any more inclusive. There is news and blogs and information flowing out of there almost 24x7 for a week. The session schedules are published. And there are resources for how you can participate, even if you are not able to attend. UDS is probably the most democratic, inclusive, open source (to misuse the phrase), developer summit ever. Dan --- Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Open Standards! -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: about empathy as the default IM application
On Wednesday 17 June 2009 11:39:22 am dan wrote: Regarding UDS, and the decisions made there, I dont see how those sessions could be any more inclusive. There is news and blogs and information flowing out of there almost 24x7 for a week. The session schedules are published. And there are resources for how you can participate, even if you are not able to attend. UDS is probably the most democratic, inclusive, open source (to misuse the phrase), developer summit ever. Nevermind the fact that Empathy replacing Pidgin eventually was discussed at UDS *Jaunty* 6 months ago with a let's aim for Jaunty+1 outcome and then re- discussed at UDS Karmic. There's been 6 months to get input. -- Mackenzie Morgan http://ubuntulinuxtipstricks.blogspot.com apt-get moo signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: about empathy as the default IM application
Il giorno mer, 17/06/2009 alle 08.29 -0700, George Farris ha scritto: I agree and use OTR all the time, however, if more people start using Empathy then hopefully an OTR plugin will be ported sooner rather than later. Yes I agree. Another option would be for Canonical or Gnome to find funds for the port (how difficult can it be?). A summer of code project? A bounty? V. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: about empathy as the default IM application
Il giorno mer, 17/06/2009 alle 13.16 -0400, Mackenzie Morgan ha scritto: Nevermind the fact that Empathy replacing Pidgin eventually was discussed at UDS *Jaunty* 6 months ago with a let's aim for Jaunty+1 outcome and then re- discussed at UDS Karmic. There's been 6 months to get input. Testing requests must be more advertised perhaps. However we still have 3+ months to give further input. I just hope that serious regressions will be fixed if any. E.g. OTR comes to mind. A ubuntu live cd can be used for secure communication. If you just plan to drop the thing there and wait, then people will complain. I personally would prefer empathy over pidgin as it supports audio (does it work well? As good as skype, which is bad in everything else?). V. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: about empathy as the default IM application
On Wednesday 17 June 2009 2:30:20 pm Vincenzo Ciancia wrote: Il giorno mer, 17/06/2009 alle 13.16 -0400, Mackenzie Morgan ha scritto: Nevermind the fact that Empathy replacing Pidgin eventually was discussed at UDS *Jaunty* 6 months ago with a let's aim for Jaunty+1 outcome and then re- discussed at UDS Karmic. There's been 6 months to get input. Testing requests must be more advertised perhaps. However we still have 3+ months to give further input. I just hope that serious regressions will be fixed if any. E.g. OTR comes to mind. A ubuntu live cd can be used for secure communication. If you just plan to drop the thing there and wait, then people will complain. I personally would prefer empathy over pidgin as it supports audio (does it work well? As good as skype, which is bad in everything else?). Daniel would know better, but based on what he's explained: I'd guess Empathy would deal better with audio than Skype would simply because Empathy doesn't try to abuse the ALSA API or do silly things to /proc like Skype does...and I *think* it's PulseAudio-aware, unlike Skype. -- Mackenzie Morgan http://ubuntulinuxtipstricks.blogspot.com apt-get moo signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: about empathy as the default IM application
www.ThePoint.com ? www.COfundOS.org ? Both are good for this On Wed, Jun 17, 2009 at 14:25, Vincenzo Ciancia cian...@di.unipi.it wrote: Il giorno mer, 17/06/2009 alle 08.29 -0700, George Farris ha scritto: I agree and use OTR all the time, however, if more people start using Empathy then hopefully an OTR plugin will be ported sooner rather than later. Yes I agree. Another option would be for Canonical or Gnome to find funds for the port (how difficult can it be?). A summer of code project? A bounty? V. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss -- http://www.google.com/profiles/danny.piccirillo -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: about empathy as the default IM application
On Wednesday 17 June 2009 2:27:31 pm Vincenzo Ciancia wrote: Il giorno mer, 17/06/2009 alle 14.01 +0300, Peteris Krisjanis ha scritto: What I meant that Empathy, maybe not complete now, but it is the way to go, it fits more in scheme of things for Ubuntu and GNOME. The same could be said about epiphany, yet firefox is the default browser. Epiphany Webkit with all its great-rendering-engine goodness? Give it a plugin API, and I'm there. Personally, I think Epiphany Webkit for Ubuntu and Arora for Kubuntu would be *great* because then the default browsers for both would render things the same (and very well, at that). They're both light fast, though as I said...I still would like a way to use extensions. -- Mackenzie Morgan http://ubuntulinuxtipstricks.blogspot.com apt-get moo signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: about empathy as the default IM application
Hi Dan, About halfway through this reply, a compromise occurred to me: get migration-assistant to install Pidgin if it's detected. If that works, it would get rid of many of the issues I've been complaining about, at least for migraters that plan to dual boot. This post covers some underlying issues, as well as problems that might still apply to people that (e.g.) get Ubuntu with a new PC. I'll send another reply to discuss the migration-assistant approach, so please hold off until then :) dan wrote: I think we're missing some context. At least I was. Correct me if I'm wrong, but what you're trying to say is: When migrating users from Windows to Ubuntu, you start by migrating them to existing cross platform applications, like Pidgin. If Pidgin is removed as the default IM application, further training will be needed for the new Ubuntu users. That's almost what I'm saying, but misses a few crucial points: On your first day in Linux, you're bombarded by new things. How do I copy+paste? Why doesn't weird hardware issue work? Where's my C: drive? What's the equivalent of all the programs I forgot about, but now realise I use all the time? And so on. IM is one of the programs people use on their first day, and it's one of the programs that needs to work before you can get help from a friend without paying a phone bill. So my first point is not just that migraters will need extra training, but that they will need to work this out on their own, at a time when they're completely overloaded, and liable to fall back on old habits. Old habits usually means typing the name of a program into Google, then clicking the first link they see, or following the first set of instructions they can find. When I've been the friend that migraters contact, this has always ended badly. My second point is that changing in Karmic, rather than (for example) making a big fanfare about how we'll change after the next LTS, would be unfair on people who have taken the time to plan for this during the past year or two. ... I think the difficulty for you is that in Ubuntu we're looking for the best *Ubuntu* experience, not necessarily the best migration experience. It would be nice if those two interests were 100% aligned, but sadly they are not, in this specific case. I agree with this, up to a point. Unless you're planning to forcibly uninstall Pidgin when people upgrade, application defaults are only relevant to people doing a fresh install. Migraters are an important subset of installers, so their needs should be carefully considered. As always, this is a balancing act between the desire to create a system that people can get into, and the desire to create a system that people will like once they have got into it. I wouldn't complain if the argument for Empathy were overwhelming, but all I've heard boils down to: * it's a bit nicer * it's a bit better integrated * it has voice+video support * it means we can stop dealing with the Pidgin guys * all the bugs it has will definitely be fixed by release day * users will file loads of new bugs after release day (!) * if you don't like it, you can always install Pidgin Maybe there's a stronger argument and I just haven't heard it, but this feels like it's putting the interests of developers ahead of users. It certainly doesn't feel like the sort of urgent issue that's worth throwing away months of preparatory work by soon-to-be-migraters. Regarding UDS, and the decisions made there, I dont see how those sessions could be any more inclusive. There is news and blogs and information flowing out of there almost 24x7 for a week. The session schedules are published. And there are resources for how you can participate, even if you are not able to attend. UDS is probably the most democratic, inclusive, open source (to misuse the phrase), developer summit ever. That's good to hear. Is there a central point with a list of these blogs and news sites? My experience has been the community going dark for a week, so I'd appreciate a bit of light :) I've not been able to find any discussion of Empathy online before this week, and I can't find it in the schedules or the list of discussions. Could you point to somewhere that the arguments are laid out? - Andrew -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: about empathy as the default IM application
As promised, this reply will concentrate on working around problems faced by migraters by patching migration-assistant. I would be willing to put programming time into the ideas suggested here. As I stated in another post, the best Linux migration strategy involves two stages: new apps/same OS, then new OS/same apps. The migration assistant automatically configures a few applications based on your old settings, which can be extremely useful to migraters. I propose we get migration-assistant to install (equivalents of) the user's old applications. Installing the user's old apps would give them a personalised experience, and would help document the what's the Linux equivalent of application X? issue. Because the experience would be tailored to the specific user, there's no concern about degrading everyone else's experience for the sake of some migraters. This would mean that migraters don't get the standard Ubuntu experience out of the box. But that strikes me as a valid choice for a user to make. Obviously, Pidgin would be an application that should be installed. Other applications I've recently seen a need for include Skype, GMail notifier, and whatever the current equivalent of xmms is. As I mentioned in another message, this wouldn't do anything for migraters that get Ubuntu with a new PC. I personally doubt that many people move to Linux with no dual booting period in between, but I would be willing to look at providing a similar facility by adapting migration-assistant to zip up some files under Windows, then unzip them under Linux. - Andrew -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: about empathy as the default IM application
On Wed, Jun 17, 2009 at 3:00 PM, Andrew Sayersandrew-ubuntu-de...@pileofstuff.org wrote: I've not been able to find any discussion of Empathy online before this week, and I can't find it in the schedules or the list of discussions. Could you point to somewhere that the arguments are laid out? - Andrew It can be hard to keep up with all the different news and on-goings, but this is hardly out of no where. See: Blue print about this registered on 2008-08-01: https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/replace-pidgin-with-empathy In depth usability study done in August 2008: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/EmpathyVsPidginUsability Call for testing on this list on Aug 8, 2008: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel-discuss/2008-August/005070.html Just a couple of many forum threads: http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=885548 http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1154769 Info on remote UDS participation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UDSKarmic/RemoteParticipation - Andrew Starr-Bochicchio -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: about empathy as the default IM application
What about Midori instead of Epiphany? I have yet to see a chart comparing the two, but from what i've read, Midori is much better, and i've been using it as my main browser for a while now. On Wed, Jun 17, 2009 at 14:44, Mackenzie Morgan maco...@gmail.com wrote: On Wednesday 17 June 2009 2:27:31 pm Vincenzo Ciancia wrote: Il giorno mer, 17/06/2009 alle 14.01 +0300, Peteris Krisjanis ha scritto: What I meant that Empathy, maybe not complete now, but it is the way to go, it fits more in scheme of things for Ubuntu and GNOME. The same could be said about epiphany, yet firefox is the default browser. Epiphany Webkit with all its great-rendering-engine goodness? Give it a plugin API, and I'm there. Personally, I think Epiphany Webkit for Ubuntu and Arora for Kubuntu would be *great* because then the default browsers for both would render things the same (and very well, at that). They're both light fast, though as I said...I still would like a way to use extensions. -- Mackenzie Morgan http://ubuntulinuxtipstricks.blogspot.com apt-get moo -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss -- http://www.google.com/profiles/danny.piccirillo -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Browser chat (was Re: about empathy as the default IM application)
On Wednesday 17 June 2009 3:31:09 pm Danny Piccirillo wrote: What about Midori instead of Epiphany? I have yet to see a chart comparing the two, but from what i've read, Midori is much better, and i've been using it as my main browser for a while now. I've only used the Hardy version...that was not a good snapshot. The thing I'd be most concerned with (because I hit it with Arora) is that some of these applications make up their own keyboard shortcuts if they're not actually working with the DE's upstreams. I think that since Epiphany is actually GNOME, they have the standard keyboard shortcuts. I don't recall if Midori did or not... -- Mackenzie Morgan http://ubuntulinuxtipstricks.blogspot.com apt-get moo signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: about empathy as the default IM application
Hi Dan, About halfway through this reply, a compromise occurred to me: get migration-assistant to install Pidgin if it's detected. If that works, it would get rid of many of the issues I've been complaining about, at least for migraters that plan to dual boot. This post covers some underlying issues, as well as problems that might still apply to people that (e.g.) get Ubuntu with a new PC. I like this idea. This could be not only limited to Pidgin, but other software, like Xchat, for example. Go ahead, create blueprint for this. Cheers, Peter. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Browser chat (was Re: about empathy as the default IM application)
Wow, yeah that was a long time ago...definitely grab the newest version using the WebKit and Midori PPAs. It's really great and it's GNOME too. I find it to be much faster and sleeker than Epiphany, and seems to have more features. IMHO, it's just designed better. It is certainly not ready to take on Firefox, but in the long term, it certainly could. I would encourage everyone to give it a shot using the newest version Midori (or Epiphany) vs. Firefox What would Midori need to replace Firefox? It has plugin support, so let's forget about the number of actual plugins (similar to Empathy vs Pidgin, it would be unreasonable to expect that gap to close before we make a change), since the major ones seem to have been ported. What does Firefox have that Midori doesn't which keeps it from being the default browser in Ubuntu? (Let's also forget for this discussion that Epiphany is the default for GNOME and pretend that Midori just replaced it) On Wed, Jun 17, 2009 at 15:38, Mackenzie Morgan maco...@gmail.com wrote: On Wednesday 17 June 2009 3:31:09 pm Danny Piccirillo wrote: What about Midori instead of Epiphany? I have yet to see a chart comparing the two, but from what i've read, Midori is much better, and i've been using it as my main browser for a while now. I've only used the Hardy version...that was not a good snapshot. The thing I'd be most concerned with (because I hit it with Arora) is that some of these applications make up their own keyboard shortcuts if they're not actually working with the DE's upstreams. I think that since Epiphany is actually GNOME, they have the standard keyboard shortcuts. I don't recall if Midori did or not... -- Mackenzie Morgan http://ubuntulinuxtipstricks.blogspot.com apt-get moo -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss -- http://www.google.com/profiles/danny.piccirillo -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Browser chat (was Re: about empathy as the default IM application)
2009/6/17 Danny Piccirillo danny.picciri...@ubuntu.com: Wow, yeah that was a long time ago...definitely grab the newest version using the WebKit and Midori PPAs. It's really great and it's GNOME too. I find it to be much faster and sleeker than Epiphany, and seems to have more features. IMHO, it's just designed better. It is certainly not ready to take on Firefox, but in the long term, it certainly could. I would encourage everyone to give it a shot using the newest version Midori (or Epiphany) vs. Firefox What would Midori need to replace Firefox? It has plugin support, so let's forget about the number of actual plugins (similar to Empathy vs Pidgin, it would be unreasonable to expect that gap to close before we make a change), since the major ones seem to have been ported. What does Firefox have that Midori doesn't which keeps it from being the default browser in Ubuntu? (Let's also forget for this discussion that Epiphany is the default for GNOME and pretend that Midori just replaced it) [...] 2009/6/17 Mackenzie Morgan maco...@gmail.com: [...] Personally, I think Epiphany Webkit for Ubuntu and Arora for Kubuntu would be *great* because then the default browsers for both would render things the same (and very well, at that). They're both light fast, though as I said...I still would like a way to use extensions. Does everybody think it's wise to replace Firefox as the default browser? I can understand that more lightness in a browser may be desirable, not sure I fully understand the rendering issue (could someone elaborate on that, please?), but Mozilla and FF in particular seem like such great FOSS achievements to me that they may be an important alliance for Ubuntu to maintain. Just came across this Brainstorm idea on the same topic (http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/idea/229/), but still wading through the many comments. Regards, Evan R. Murphy -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Browser chat (was Re: about empathy as the default IM application)
On Wednesday 17 June 2009 4:56:16 pm Evan R. Murphy wrote: not sure I fully understand the rendering issue (could someone elaborate on that, please?), Webkit has, I believe, the fastest Javascript engine. It also has better CSS2 CSS3 support than other rendering engines (along with a few features not yet added to CSS3), so if a web designer is doing something fancy like having a gradient or using drop-shadows, the user gets to actually see that. Firefox and others will ignore those settings on webpages. Sites still look fine (you'd have to be a little daft to make a site that doesn't at least look passable in Firefox), but they might be missing some of the eye-candy the developer tried to put in. but Mozilla and FF in particular seem like such great FOSS achievements to me that they may be an important alliance for Ubuntu to maintain. That's true...where's Mozilla? was my mom's first Ubuntu question. -- Mackenzie Morgan http://ubuntulinuxtipstricks.blogspot.com apt-get moo signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: about empathy as the default IM application
Wait, I have a new proposal! Let's *not* include Empathy in Karmic, but plan on including it in Karmic +1 (and *announce* this) Why? Well, it will still give Empathy the attention it needs from developers to fix the bugs that would be considered regressions during the switch without actually replacing Pidgin before they're fixed. Aren't i brilliant? *On the other hand*, it might *still* be preferable to include Empathy in Karmic to have more of a guarantee that bugs will be fixed in time for the 10.04 LTS release. As someone commented on my last posthttp://pinstack.blogspot.com/2009/06/replace-pidgin-with-empathy-in-karmic.html?showComment=1245133369575#c6152600795066756079 : Empathy has been the top active project in Gnome for the last few weeks, with about 100 commits a week on average. The pace of development is astounding. Once the move to Empathy is the default, Ubuntu can start depending on it for other applications' communication needs (using Tubes). Gnome Games are getting Tubes support. Vino just got Tubes support, meaning that you can share your desktop with your contacts in Empathy. I understand why 8.04 didn't ship with Empathy, but the change needs to happen. Empathy is 95% there. The needed changes can be made before Karmic if Ubuntu (and Canonical) commits to it. If 9.10 ships with Empathy, all the major bugs will be worked out by 10.04. Who wants to add yet ANOTHER new technology to another LTS. So, what shall it be? Karmic 9.10, or Karmic +1 10.04 LTShttp://pinstack.blogspot.com/2009/06/empathy-in-ubuntu-karmic-910-or-karmic.html ? On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 00:44, Asif Youssuff yoa...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, 2009-06-15 at 17:36 -0400, Danny Piccirillo wrote: IMHO Empathy is great for most users, especially new ones, and it can replace poth pidgin AND ekiga. It lacks the basic features like the ones you mentioned, but i don't think they are showstoppers and including it in Karmic or the next release i'm sure would guarantee that all of those would be resolved within the release cycle. I've been playing with Empathy for a while, and it has an extremely annoying behavior -- when a message is received from a person without an open conversation open, the alert comes up in the notification area, and does not spawn a new window -- this is unlike any other IM application I have ever used. Why do i need to click on the icon when in Pidgin (or other IM apps), I can simply switch to the new conversation tab? Having to move my hand from the keyboard is extremely annoying in this case. Also, most of the time, I don't even notice that I have a new conversation, since I don't look at the notification area often -- this means that friends can leave messages, and leave before I have the chance to respond, simply because I never noticed that i received an IM, even though I was actively using the application. I filed a bug report, and didn't get a friendly response, sadly. http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=585914 The response I got was we don't popup a window in the face of the user to not steal focus -- you can read the bug report for more. So for me, empathy is NOT ready to replace pidgin, as it presents a usability regression for me. -Asif -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss -- http://www.google.com/profiles/danny.piccirillo -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: about empathy as the default IM application
On Tue, 2009-06-16 at 12:37 -0400, Danny Piccirillo wrote: Wait, I have a new proposal! Let's not include Empathy in Karmic, but plan on including it in Karmic +1 (and announce this) Why? Well, it will still give Empathy the attention it needs from developers to fix the bugs that would be considered regressions during the switch without actually replacing Pidgin before they're fixed. Aren't i brilliant? I much prefer this course of action -- it gets the testing it needs, but we're not left holding the bag from feature regressions. For apps that are included in the default install, we should be very conservative, imo -- regressions are the most annoying aspect of /any/ upgrade. -Asif -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: about empathy as the default IM application
Danny Piccirillo wrote: Wait, I have a new proposal! Let's *not* include Empathy in Karmic, but plan on including it in Karmic +1 (and /announce/ this) Why? Well, it will still give Empathy the attention it needs from developers to fix the bugs that would be considered regressions during the switch without actually replacing Pidgin before they're fixed. Aren't i brilliant? Well, but we basically already did that for Jaunty. At the time it was decided to wait for Karmic. At some point we have to just bite the bullet and do it. I'm not a huge empathy fan (it's OK, but pidgin is better for me) but I think it's clearly the choice going forward and has a responsive and active development team. Perhaps we should just do it and try to mitigate any regressions, if any, as best we can for Karmic. -Jordan -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: about empathy as the default IM application
Empathy itself is ok with version 2.27.3 for an average user. The problem is telepathy: some protocols are behind pidgin's (such as MSN which is poorly supported and developers don't respond to bugs quickly) -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: about empathy as the default IM application
reading this discussion I decided to give a try. when I want to set status to Hidden using my yahoo account, it's setting it to busy. looking into launchpad I found same problem also for gmail, which I'm not sure yet. and this bug is reported to empathy bugzilla. https://bugs.launchpad.net/empathy/+bug/257190 http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=579650 -- Regards Dulmandakh http://www.dulmandakh.com -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: about empathy as the default IM application
2009/6/16 Danny Piccirillo danny.picciri...@ubuntu.com Wait, I have a new proposal! Let's *not* include Empathy in Karmic, but plan on including it in Karmic +1 (and *announce* this) Why? Well, it will still give Empathy the attention it needs from developers to fix the bugs that would be considered regressions during the switch without actually replacing Pidgin before they're fixed. Aren't i brilliant? *On the other hand*, it might *still* be preferable to include Empathy in Karmic to have more of a guarantee that bugs will be fixed in time for the 10.04 LTS release. As someone commented on my last posthttp://pinstack.blogspot.com/2009/06/replace-pidgin-with-empathy-in-karmic.html?showComment=1245133369575#c6152600795066756079 : Empathy has been the top active project in Gnome for the last few weeks, with about 100 commits a week on average. The pace of development is astounding. Once the move to Empathy is the default, Ubuntu can start depending on it for other applications' communication needs (using Tubes). Gnome Games are getting Tubes support. Vino just got Tubes support, meaning that you can share your desktop with your contacts in Empathy. I understand why 8.04 didn't ship with Empathy, but the change needs to happen. Empathy is 95% there. The needed changes can be made before Karmic if Ubuntu (and Canonical) commits to it. If 9.10 ships with Empathy, all the major bugs will be worked out by 10.04. Who wants to add yet ANOTHER new technology to another LTS. So, what shall it be? Karmic 9.10, or Karmic +1 10.04 LTShttp://pinstack.blogspot.com/2009/06/empathy-in-ubuntu-karmic-910-or-karmic.html ? This would be a pretty bad move regarding Ubuntu's development model. With a 6-month release cycle, things *need* to remain cutting edge. If every release is just going to be a rehash of a previous one, then Canonical should be releasing at least yearly. I'm sure you can tolerate installing Pidgin from the package manager until Karmic+1 :) Odysseus -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: about empathy as the default IM application
On Tue, 2009-06-16 at 20:39 +0100, Alexander H Deriziotis wrote: This would be a pretty bad move regarding Ubuntu's development model. With a 6-month release cycle, things need to remain cutting edge. If every release is just going to be a rehash of a previous one, then Canonical should be releasing at least yearly. Yes, a rehash is so much worse than releasing stuff that is *worse* than what came before. Obviously I disagree -- I think that there is a real problem with the idea that newer is better -- I believe that better is better -- and sometimes that means it's newer, and sometimes that means waiting until the newer item is actually better. Ubuntu shouldn't be focused on being newer, it should be focused on being better -- if it's not better, bug #1 doesn't /deserve/ to be closed. -Asif -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: about empathy as the default IM application
What this? Apparently at UDS this was already discussed and Empathy is going to replace Pidgin-- https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/Specs/Karmic/MessagingAndCommunicationSelection On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 16:04, Asif Youssuff yoa...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, 2009-06-16 at 20:39 +0100, Alexander H Deriziotis wrote: This would be a pretty bad move regarding Ubuntu's development model. With a 6-month release cycle, things need to remain cutting edge. If every release is just going to be a rehash of a previous one, then Canonical should be releasing at least yearly. Yes, a rehash is so much worse than releasing stuff that is *worse* than what came before. Obviously I disagree -- I think that there is a real problem with the idea that newer is better -- I believe that better is better -- and sometimes that means it's newer, and sometimes that means waiting until the newer item is actually better. Ubuntu shouldn't be focused on being newer, it should be focused on being better -- if it's not better, bug #1 doesn't /deserve/ to be closed. -Asif -- http://www.google.com/profiles/danny.piccirillo -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: about empathy as the default IM application
Jordan Mantha [2009-06-16 9:57 -0700]: Well, but we basically already did that for Jaunty. At the time it was decided to wait for Karmic. At some point we have to just bite the bullet and do it. I'm not a huge empathy fan (it's OK, but pidgin is better for me) but I think it's clearly the choice going forward and has a responsive and active development team. Perhaps we should just do it and try to mitigate any regressions, if any, as best we can for Karmic. That's in fact the plan for Karmic, as we are doing so many changes anyway. We do not want to do structural changes in Karmic+1, since that's likely to become an LTS. Martin -- Martin Pitt| http://www.piware.de Ubuntu Developer (www.ubuntu.com) | Debian Developer (www.debian.org) -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: about empathy as the default IM application
On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 1:19 PM, Ken VanDineken.vand...@canonical.com wrote: Personally I don't see anything about empathy that is worse than pidgin. Empathy has the plus of being extremely well integrated into GNOME and the telepathy framework opens up such huge potential. Sticking with Pidgin keeps us locked in the corner, we could be so much cooler if we can get out of that corner. I agree there are a few addons for pidgin that some users depend on, that aren't available for empathy. But the default empathy has all the features most of our target users need. If you really need OTR, you can install pidgin. Same for any of the other plugins that you might actually need, but the 95% case doesn't need those. I don't use OTR, video, voice, and do use just a few Pidgin plugins. However, beyond telepathy-idle's rather poor IRC support, empathy also has a distinct lack of tunability or flexibility it seems. Telepathy seems all the rage to get nifty new technology (geoip and tubes for instance), but it doesn't seem matched terribly well with similar thought in the Empathy UI. I want to see the same sort of potential we get from Telepathy in the backend from Empathy in the frontend. For instance, I'm wanting to have a character count with my input box so that when I use Empathy for microblogging I can see when I hit the 140 char limit. This is clearly a corner case, though perhaps a fairly common one, and pidgin doesn't have it either except as a 3rd party plugin. The problem is that even though there was a fairly quick response from developers in bugzilla, I also saw the following [0]: Sounds like it's time to get a plugin API for Empathy. If it's true that there isn't a plugin API for Empathy then it makes it harder for it to be flexible and offer options for a broader audience. Tweaking the UI to suit your preferences or add in potentially useful features shouldn't be an advanced user thing, especially since IM clients can be used for so many different purposes and protocols. I've been hearing Empathy has huge potential for almost 2 years now and yet I've seen very little change to the UI. It's still a stripped down IM client with crappy IRC support and annoying notifications. That's not to say that we shouldn't default it for Karmic, I think we should. I just don't think we should kid ourselves into thinking we're switching because Empathy is, at this moment or even by Karmic's release, a much superior IM client. The only concrete reasons I've seen are that we can drop ekiga and not have to deal with Pidgin upstream (or lack thereof) so much. -Jordan [0] http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=570164 -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: about empathy as the default IM application
The discussion so far has been people arguing about why they prefer Empathy or Pidgin, but at UDS it was already decided that Empathy would ship with Karmic. I humbly request that we all stop bickering about any problems we may currently have with it, and start testing it and filing bug reports so that it will ready for Karmic. 14 pages of discussion about the current state of things does nothing. [below is the forwarded message about the upcoming Empathy Hug Day, June 18th] The concensus is that Empathy, by using the Telepathy framework and integrating with the GNOME desktop, is superior to Pidgin and should be included with Ubuntu by default eventually. Almost everyone who opposes it does so on the grounds that some bugs make it premature for such a thing to happen in Karmic, but since Karmic already has so many other major changes planned anyways and Karmic +1 will be an LTS, the decision has already been made for us. So let's make the best of it! -- Forwarded message -- From: Pedro Villavicencio Garrido pe...@ubuntu.com Date: Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 08:39 Subject: Announcing the Next Ubuntu Hug Day! - Thursday 18th June, 2009. To: ubuntu-bugsq...@lists.ubuntu.com, ubuntu-devel-annou...@lists.ubuntu.com Fellow Ubuntu Triagers! This week's HugDay target is *drum roll please*... Empathy!! * 26 New bugs need a hug * 5 Incomplete bugs need a status check * 9 Confirmed bugs need a review * 1 Bug with patch to be checked. * 4 Reports to be send upstream. Bookmark it, add it to your calendars, turn over those egg-timers! * Thursday 18th June 2009 * https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuBugDay/20090618 Can't stress it enough: everyone can help! Have some time? Triage boogz! I won't be upset if you get a headstart~ ;) Have a blog? Blog about Hugday! Have some screen space? Open #ubuntu-bugs and keep an eye out for newcomers in need. Have minions? Teach THEM to triage for you! :) Wanna be famous? Is easy! remember to use 5-A-day so if you do a good work your name could be listed at the top 5-A-Day Contributors in the Ubuntu Hall of Fame page! Make a difference; we will be in #ubuntu-bugs (FreeNode) all day and night, and will be ready to answer your questions about how to help. If you're new to all this, head to http://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bugs Have a nice day, pedro [From the BugSquad] -- ubuntu-devel-announce mailing list ubuntu-devel-annou...@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-announce On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 17:33, Mackenzie Morgan maco...@gmail.com wrote: On Tuesday 16 June 2009 5:25:12 pm Andrew Sayers wrote: I'm not usually one to stand in the way of progress, but it seems like there are grave issues here for people migrating from other OSes. Migration to Linux from another OS is best done in two stages: first you keep your old OS and switch to cross-platform apps, then you switch your OS and keep your apps. Platform-specific defaults break the two-stage model, requiring users to learn a new app at the same time they're learning a new OS. I don't actually know anybody that used OOo on Windows before they used it on Linux. Firefox, yeah...well, really, I used Mozilla (and where's Mozilla? was my mom's first question), but anyway... How difficult is it to switch IM clients? From what I've seen, they all have a window that lists who's online. You double click somebody in the list and a window opens. The conversation goes in the top half. You type in the bottom half and hit enter to send. OK, fine, not all...I guess you don't double-click when you use finch or naim since they're terminal based... But of the GUI ones? It's all the same. I'd rather explore the problem you demonstrate: Why do people learn to use a specific application instead of just learning how to look at menus and make decisions based on what they want to do? I suspect some of the onus is on the teachers who only teach memorized step-by-step junk instead of telling students figure out how to... and leaving it at that. -- Mackenzie Morgan http://ubuntulinuxtipstricks.blogspot.com apt-get moo -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss -- http://www.google.com/profiles/danny.piccirillo -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: about empathy as the default IM application
Heya I've started using Empathy as my default IM messenger with Hardy or interpid (can't remember i was compiling it by hand, it wasn't in the repo's back then). MSN is evil =D those that try to send me files or start audio/video chat I just tell them it's not supported on my platform and then make them switch to gmail+gtalk or to skype. So I can live without msn. But it would be amazing to see empathy to replace egika to provide stable audio/video on linux which would also be interoperatable with windows. (skype still has minor hickups on linux platform) with best regards, Dmitrijs. 2009/6/15 Danny Piccirillo danny.picciri...@ubuntu.com: Ah, yes-- this discussion will keep coming up until it finally happens =] http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?p=7462614 IMHO Empathy is great for most users, especially new ones, and it can replace poth pidgin AND ekiga. It lacks the basic features like the ones you mentioned, but i don't think they are showstoppers and including it in Karmic or the next release i'm sure would guarantee that all of those would be resolved within the release cycle. It is simple and integrates well, and we want to make Ubuntu friendly for NEW users. Old users who prefer the clutter and feature madness of pidgin will simply install it from Add/Remove (or not even have to if they run an upgrade). If Ubuntu switched to Empathy, it's development is going to get a big boost so the feature gap will close and eventaully reverse. Are people really defending Pidgin for the future of Ubuntu or as their pet IM client? On Mon, Jun 1, 2009 at 15:35, Nicolò Chieffo nicolo.chie...@gmail.com wrote: Hello everyone, I'm really interested in the new version of empathy which will have video and audio support. This will be a really great feature and a step towards a complete IM experience. But on the other hand I'm quite worried of the empathy and telepathy status about basic features, which seem to be put aside in favor of new and strange ones. Maybe developers should help to implement them before empathy will replace pidgin, or lots of users will loose useful stuff like: * Rich text messages (underline, bold, font, ...) * Custom emoticons * Protocol emoticons * Msn chat with invisible users * Msn send and receive offline messages * Msn see windows live messenger buddy icons (only new versions of 2009) * Msn file transfers -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss -- http://www.google.com/profiles/danny.piccirillo -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss -- With best regards Dmitrijs Ledkovs (for short Dima), Ледков Дмитрий Юрьевич -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: about empathy as the default IM application
On Mon, 2009-06-15 at 17:36 -0400, Danny Piccirillo wrote: IMHO Empathy is great for most users, especially new ones, and it can replace poth pidgin AND ekiga. It lacks the basic features like the ones you mentioned, but i don't think they are showstoppers and including it in Karmic or the next release i'm sure would guarantee that all of those would be resolved within the release cycle. I've been playing with Empathy for a while, and it has an extremely annoying behavior -- when a message is received from a person without an open conversation open, the alert comes up in the notification area, and does not spawn a new window -- this is unlike any other IM application I have ever used. Why do i need to click on the icon when in Pidgin (or other IM apps), I can simply switch to the new conversation tab? Having to move my hand from the keyboard is extremely annoying in this case. Also, most of the time, I don't even notice that I have a new conversation, since I don't look at the notification area often -- this means that friends can leave messages, and leave before I have the chance to respond, simply because I never noticed that i received an IM, even though I was actively using the application. I filed a bug report, and didn't get a friendly response, sadly. http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=585914 The response I got was we don't popup a window in the face of the user to not steal focus -- you can read the bug report for more. So for me, empathy is NOT ready to replace pidgin, as it presents a usability regression for me. -Asif -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
