ugnet_: Re: [FedsNet] Kanyeihamba on the Phantom Armsofthe1960s
Omw Ssemakula, Thanx for forwarding your response to Dr Kigongo's response to the quoted part of Kanyeihamba's book. I believe the starting point of this engagement was whether or not Ibingira's view of the events of that time should be taken as gospel truth, notwithstanding his subsequent traetment by Obote, in consequence of his alleged involvement. I therefore took the trouble to quote at length a section of Kanyeihamba's book, only the one relevant to the issue under discussion. Your point was: there were no arms because Ibingira said there were no arms. Others, such as Akena Adoko said there were arms, now even Kanyeihamba says there were arms. Where does the truth lie? >>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 07/22/03 03:18AM wrote>>> Mr. Kigongo, Thank you for your note. It is because of the attitude of African rulers like Obote, that whose who seek to remove them from power through lawful means are 'enemies of the state', 'consipirators', etc, that we are in so much trouble in Africa. Kanyeihamba, being a lawyer, ought to know better! He should know that changing leaders is the very essence of politics and one of its features, and that there is absolutely nothing untoward in this. It s unfair for me to get engaged in defending Kanyeihamba for what he wrote, all I can say is that the story is much more involved than what I cited. He develops the issue of the conspiracies right from the pre-independence period up to those "dramatic years". As to Dr Kigongo's submission: >>>Prof Kanyeihamba, if he was quoted correctly, seems to have an unusual usage of words. I have cross-checked what I posted against the copy of the book that I have and I am satisfied that I quoted him correctly. >>>First, he uses the word "conspiracy" to describe actions that are not only legal but normal in politics. The "third conspiracy" (Obote planning to change the constition) as he himself admits, was not a conspiracy at all because it was an openly discussed political plan. Changing the constituion by lawful means is not a crime, changing it by force is treason. I believe that is what he says too in dismissing the "third conspiracy". >>>The second conspiracy was a plan by Obote's opponents within the UPC to change the party leadership. This is a normal part of the democratic process, but the Obote wing of the UPC has never accepted that notion, to this day they still believe in life Presidencies. Obote, Amin and Museveni have all been in consensus on this matter. It is my understanding that it s the way the anti-Obote elements of the time went about their attempts that made them conspirators, and that's the view he seems to have upheld in his final analysis. >>>Kanyheihamba refers to "traditionalists" supposedly "penetrating the UPC" to undermine Obote from within. Again his usage of English is idiosyncratic. The opponents of Obote wer founding members of the UPC (Ngobi, Ibingira, Magezi, Lumu, Kirya). A founder cannot by any logic be said to penetrate the organisation. The traditionalists referred to were not those members, but rather the "people from Mengo", for instance, who were thought to be the ones pulling the strings. I believe some other writer referred to the Kabaka as the puppetmaster for the Ibingiras, but I cannot recall who made the characterisation, so don't ask me for the "bwino". >>Finally, the "first conspiracy", Mutesa's ordering of arms. No citations or other primary evidence is offered to prove that this is not a rumor. The facts cited themselves are bizarre enough to suggest that it is indeed a rumor. Mutesa, an officer in a British regiment who knew the British system well and had many friends in England, would hardly take the farcical step of writing to the Queen as part of a conspiracy. Daktari, sources were cited for the various claims made in that piece. For the statement: "..were carefully selected and recruited int the armed forces and arms and ammunitions began to arrive in the country without the knowledge of the Governement. There can be no doubt that these were the acts in a cosnpiracy" he gives Cabinet minutes, Cabinet Papers, State House Entebbe as the reference. The writing is heavily referenced with footnotes and there is a bibliography at the end of the each chapter. Ultimately, of course, we each can make up our minds as who is giving an objective account of the whole saga. I thought I should include the following by way of signing off: "In my capacity as president, talked with the Chief Justice and with the Brigadier about the growing danger of the situation, and it was at this stage that I sounded out the British Commissioner and some African ambassadors as to whether it would be possible to fly in troops if the situation got out of hand. I did not invite a foreign force to invade Uganda. I had in mind something similar to the successful intervention by the British which Obote had authorised two years before... (Pg 186) "...On 2 March I was accus
ugnet_: Re: [DPNet] Re: Kanyeihamba on the Phantom Armsofthe1960s, Ibingira andtheConspiracies
Ndugu Ssemakula, Though these questions were addressed to Karoli Ssemogerere, I believe my reply to you covered most of those grounds. Kanyeihamba describes himself as one of the "Pillars of the NRM until appointed Justice of the Supreme Court". You may want to know that the book is most unflattering of UPC, its leadership and legacy. Knowing your disposition, it is actually your type of book :-) I hope you still have a sense of humour! Best regards, Yoswa >>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 07/21/03 10:44PM >>> I am afraid I do not see your point. What I need to know is: - Did Kanyeihamba witness the events he writes about firsthand as a member of the inner circle of a given party, as Ibingira was in UPC, or not? Membership in a given political party can help me gauge political bias, conscious or otherwise. - If not, who were his informants or sources -- especially published ones? All I am trying to do is gauge his credibility and depth of his knowledge. - If he is relying on secondary sources, as many people -- including myself -- normally do, I want to know that too. (And yes, I am aware that "eyewitnesses" do not always see the same things -- many experiments in psychology, etc -- have firmly established this). - Does the "letter", that was supposedly written to the Queen of England, actually exist, and if so where? That is all there is to it. If you have anything to say about the above points I am all ears. ssemakula Original Message Follows From: Karoli Ssemogerere Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [DPNet] Re: Kanyeihamba on the Phantom Arms ofthe1960s, Ibingira and theConspiracies Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2003 12:08:07 -0700 (PDT) Never been the one to agree with JSC Kanyeihamba on all occasions. As an academic however, he has always been fairly objective. The fact that he is a former UPC et al, is irrelevant. More Ugandans have belonged to UPC or its offshoots in the past than any other political party, that alone does not disqualify him. Secondly, the politics of suspicion, treachery were a very component of Uganda's politics to this day. Some of these revelations may be new, but most are repeated in Samwiri Rubaraza Karugire's Political History of Uganda. kls. Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE*
ugnet_: Re: Kanyeihamba on the Phantom Arms ofthe1960s,Ibingira and theConspiracies
Omw Ssemakula, let me attempt to address the queries you raised after reading through the quote from Kanyeihamba's book. >>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 07/21/03 08:46PM writes I have not read/seen Kanyeihamba's book. What you state of the gentleman's credentials hardly impresses anyone as to his credibility as a source of information. All I did was to copy as is on the cover of the book the author's name. Believe me, that's how it appears. As to whether the credentials have any bearing on the credibility as a source of information, are you withdrawing "trained attorney" from the points that make Ibingira a credible source? If so, why did you bring it up to begin with? And if you want a "trained attorney" believed, what about a law professor, senior counsel, and justice of the supreme court? I've "known" you long enough in this cyberworld to know that shifting goal posts is not one of your techniques in intellectual discourse. >>> Here is what would help me determine if his book is worth spending time on. >>>a. What was his role in those days (1960s)? i.e. did he personally witness the events he writes about, or did he, like the rest of us, depend on the rumor-mill (a.k.a. 'Radio-Katwe') as his source of information. He does not say, but what comes out is that he had previously covered the constitutional devt around that time before in Constitutional Law and Government >>>b. If he did not witness the evenst from close quarters, as Ibingira did, whom did he interview (it usual to give your source in academic endeavors of this nature, e.g. see Michael Wright's book, Buganda in the Heroic Age or other historical writings). See my response to Dr Kigongo. He cites a good number of sources, including Ibingira himself. If it is sources you want, you wont be disappointed: Ibingira, Mujaju, Karugire, Kasozi, Mudoola, Kabwegyere and many others are quoted at various points c. Since much of your excerpt depends on a letter alleged written to the Queen of England by consiratorial Baganda traditionalists, does Kanyeihamba or can you, give us a reprint of this letter, or point us a source where this letter has been published, so we satisfy ourselves that: (i) its existence not a figment of somebody's imagination (ii) not a forgery (the miracle mordern technology can assist one in determining if something is a genuine article or not). Kanyeihamba does not reprint the said letter in his book. The section where it is mentioned has footnote references to senior civil servants in the government of the time and to cabinet minutes/cabinet papers, Statehouse, Entebbe. I have never seen the letter, if it existed, and so I am definitely not in a position to give you a reprint of the letter or the source where such letter has been published. Perhaps an appeal to Kanyeihamba himself would be more appropriate. This is because we can hardly beleive that if such a letter actually existed -- and were genuine -- Obote and his indefatigible henchmen would not have publicized to the widest possible extent as proof-positive of Ssekabaka Muteesa's and Baganda's wickedness! Now you are adopting the royal "we", aren't you! I cannot argue with that. >>>Please keep in mind that the British government has released/leaked a great many documents -- even supposedly secret documents -- concerning Uganda (and other areas), and that various archives of those documents are accessible to the ordinary Kibuuka and Opio. If I am not mistaken, they in fact relaese documents 25 years or so after the events, except for 'sensitive' or 'active' ones. I am aware of the release of documents under the official secrets act, but does that even cover Her Majesty's correspondence? Finally, in the meantime could you please gives us the books TOC (Table of Contents)? I'll gladly do so, and I am sorry for having given the impression that the whole book is about that "episode" of our historical devt. Here is the TOC: Chapter One : The Foundation of Uganda - Declaration of th Protectorate The Uganda Order-in-Council Executive and Legislative Council Extending Representation to the People. Chapter Two: Independence -Political pluralism -Traditional rulers -The 1961 Legislative Council -The Constitutional Conference in London -The Pre-Independence Elections The Dramatic Years -The Conspiracies -Monarchism goes into Hibernation -The Republican Constitution of 1967 - A prelude of Instability Chapter 3: The Age of Militarism in Uganda Chapter 4: Power Rides Naked Through Uganda Under the Muzzle of a Gun Chapter 5: The Return of Obote Chapter 6: The National Resistance Movement Part I: In the Bush Part II: fundamental Change Part III: The Contentious Legacies of the NRM Chapter 7: Democracy, Freedom, the Rule of Law and Powers of Government in Uganda Chapter 8: Resume' Bibliography Index 345 pages, plus i - viii for Dedication, acknowldegement, foreword and preface. Now why do I feel as if you've just got me to do a commercial for Kanye
Re: ugnet_: Re: Kanyeihamba on the Phantom Arms ofthe1960s,Ibingira andtheConspiracies
Mr Y, you might find the answer to your question to Ssemakula .. You seem to have a pathological hatred for Obote. Why? embedded in writings of decades ago. See for instance: "..Perhaps this is a good moment to disentangle Obote's enemies. The Baganda were hostile almost solidly since the action over the lost counties. This was their main quarrel with him since independence." The Kabaka of Buganda; Desecration of My Kingdom; Pg 183. Perhaps the quarrel continues! Best regards, Yoswa.
Re: ugnet_: Re: Kanyeihamba on the Phantom Armsofthe1960s,IbingiraandtheConspiracies
Omw Ssemakula, thanks for your tireless efforts to ensure that even
those that have blinders, such as yours truly, have a chance to see
things as you want them to be seen. It never was my intention to
distract you from your mission, whatever it may be. I wonder whether I
have made any statements, anywhere, accusing you of having a
"pathological condition" of any sort, if so I'd surprise even myself!
I am unbothered that you are "not terribly fond of Obote", why should
you be? You are entitled to your description of Obote as you see it fit,
as you elaborate, he has earned such characterisation(s). In any case,
your saying that need not substract from the substance of your postings.
One only hopes that your lack of fondness for Obote will not become the
blinders you are so quick to notice on others' eyes when they try to
look back at Uganda history.
If I knew that posting parts of Kanyeihamba's book would have that kind
of effect on you, I'd have thought more carefully before doing so, then
I'd have been more prepared for your onslaught. As it were, I sent in
that posting while waiting for you to "reveal" more about Obote who you
wanted me to defend. Since I love a good fight, I accepted your
challenge. Instead, we've started going around in circles over which
author is the "real ?Macoy" on these issues. As far as I am concerned,
no single author will give us everything. The question of whether Obote
singlehandedly destroyed Uganda's future is one even your
grandchildren's grandchildren will not resolve, but that should not stop
you from trying to impose your will on everyone else.
Elsewhere, you provide a tutorial on sources, and their levels and
importance, and for that I thank you. What I shall not thank you for is
the assumption you made that that was new knowledge.
I wanted to take exception to the "you folks" reference made to me, but
then realised you must have meant it in good faith so no offense taken.
Just as long as you give allowance for the fact that I am not a complete
imbecile who is incapable of seeing one or two things on my own, as an
individual, blinkers notwithstanding.
Now, may I suggest that you forget I brought up Kanyeihamba's book, and
get back to the real challenge you set before me a few days ago.
>>>>>ps: {Blinders, of course, are what city-bound horses have to wear
to avoid being distracted by traffic, people, etc. They induce a sort of
"tunnel-vision", but here the term is used figuratively.}>>>>>
Are blinders the same as blinkers?
Best regards,
Yoswa.
Original Message Follows
From: "YOSWA DAMBISYA"
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: ,
Subject: Re: ugnet_: Re: Kanyeihamba on the Phantom Arms
ofthe1960s,Ibingira andtheConspiracies
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 16:23:32 +0200
Mr Y, you might find the answer to your question to Ssemakula
>>>>.. You seem to have a pathological hatred for Obote.
Why?
embedded in writings of decades ago. See for instance:
"..Perhaps this is a good moment to disentangle Obote's enemies. The
Baganda were hostile almost solidly since the action over the lost
counties. This was their main quarrel with him since
independence."
The Kabaka of Buganda; Desecration of My Kingdom; Pg 183.
Perhaps the quarrel continues!
Best regards,
Yoswa.
Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8.
Re: ugnet_: Re: [DPNet] Re: Kanyeihamba on the Phantom Armsofthe1960s,Ibingira andtheConspiracies
I thought I had said my last bit on Ndugu Ssemakula's responses to my response, but find I need to add something here as well. >>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 07/24/03 12:33AM >>> >Addenda: 1. For what it is worth, I understand that it was probably Toronto's Dr. Muniini who first described Mr. Kanyeihamba, as "a pillar of the National Resistance Movement", and that this was in the 5th June, 2000 issue of the Monitor newspaper. > That may well have been the case. This is how Kanyeihamba sees his role in the NRM: "The author was a cadre during the years of the struggle 1980-1985. Was minister of Commerce 1986-9. Minister of Justice and Attorney General (AG) 1989-91. First Senior presidential Adviser on International and Human Rights Affairs, 1991-97. While AG the author moved and steered the Bill through Parliament that extended the NRM Administration for another five years. In Sept. 1997 became Justice of the Supreme Court." Footnote on Page 222. 2. Mr. Kanyeihamba apparently also hails from Kigezi -- another area that seriously bamboozled by the conniving Obote. The context and relevance of no. 2 above is not so clear to me, elaborate please. 3. In Gureme's review of the book in the June 23, 2003 issue of the Monitor ( www.monitor.co.ug/archives/oped/2003/0623/op2.php ) he puts the so-called 'Dramatic Years' in context. He said: "The book also dissects the constitutional discussions: here and in Britain, where our 1962 Constitution was concluded. And through the absurdities of electioneering, where the avail of symbols (e.g. the open hand) rather than principles were debated! Kanyeihamba labels the years 1962 to 1966 as the "Dramatic Years," because of the theatricals culminating in Milton Obote's home-brewed "Crisis" of 1966.>. I have already apologised for giving the impression that the entire book was the 2-3 pages I quoted on this forum! May be I should withdraw the apology: should i have mentioned the constitutional talks when we were looking at the "phantom arms of the 1960s"? Mine was not at attempt to review Kanyeihamba's book! >>>"Incidentally, Ibingira's recollection of those debates is also illuminating. Obote, whom he accompanied was too busy sight-seeing and gawking at red doubledecker buses of London to attend many of the sessions.>>>.. And Ibingira, having been in full attendance (while Obote was red-doubledecker buses of London-gawking) not only knew what the absentee Obote was doing, but came back and supported the same irresponsible Obote to lead his party to Independence! You know what, that Obote man must have been quite something, for somehow he got to take credit for what others did whilst he was gawking at red doubledecker buses. Listen to what Sir Edward said of Obote's role in those talks: "THE TALKS WERE SUCCESSFUL FOR US. WITH OBOTE'S SUPPORT, WE OBTAINED A GREAT DEAL OF WHAT WE WANTED AND LOOKED TO RECEIVE THE REST LATER. WE WERE TO HAVE OUR OWN HIGH COURT" The Kabaka of Buganda, Desecration of My Kingdom; Pages 161-162. In 1967, Sir Edward did not have to give Obote credit where it was not due, why did he attribute the "Ebyaffe" from those talks to the red doubledecker gawking Obote instead of the erudite Ibingira? > (Also, Ibingira accompanied Obote to Long Island, NY where a small college gave him an honorary doctorate that Obote was to "wear" -- almost thread-bare, as though it were an earned doctorate, throught his life.) Now we want, even, to begrudge Obote of the honorary degree he was awarded? 4. Elsewhere, it has been suggested that Keith Ingham, author/editor of books like: The making of modern Uganda (1958, 1983); A History of East Africa (1967), The kingdom of Toro in Uganda (1975), Obote: A Political Biography (1994), etc, was/is a foreigner and therefore somehow an impartial observer of events in Uganda. Nothing could be further from the truth.Ingham, a former lecturer at Makerere, was also a member of the Uganda Legislative Council (a.k.a) in 1958 -- which is when he first met Obote with whom he formed a longlasting friendship. Further, Ingham was/is also a card-carrying member of the UPC -- a factor that probably excercebated his biblical naivety, and upon which at least one reviewer of his rather incomplete biography of Obote remarked. I have a copy of Ingham's Obote: A Political Biography. The author seems to be Kenneth Ingham, and not Keith Ingham. The preface to the book has all the information above, including Ingham's admission that he joined the UPC soon after it was formed and his contacts/lengthy conversations with Obote. So, now, you are saying: "Don't believe anything Ingham says for he is a card-carrying member of the UPC", and yet a shrot while ago you were saying: "Believe everything Ibingira says because he was a UPC insider". Does being/having been UPC have any bearing to the veracity ofg information about our historical events, or is it the relationship between an individual a
Re: ugnet_: Re: [FedsNet] Kanyeihamba on the PhantomArmsofthe1960s
You know, my brother Ssemakula, as I have said a short while ago, this was a side issue; you challenged me to prepare to defend Obote. That brought back memories of the times we had real debates on Ugandanet, and I accepted your challenge. While waiting for you to lay out the case, I sent you a part from Kanyiehamba's book, just to show that someone, somewhere, thought a little differently about the very events c.f. Ibingira's account. It was just a coincidence that I'd just got a copy of Kanyeihamba's book, I am sure had I looked hard enough, I'd have found a different account from other authors, but I did not. It is only in that light that I felt it unfair that I should have been taken to task to defend Kanyeihamba: unlike your angelic author who has passed on, Kanyeihamba is still alive and therefore ought to defend his non-conformity-with-Ibingira sections. The book I have does not list his contacts, but he's a public enough figure, I am sure he can be reached. >>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 07/24/03 01:40AM >>> If is not fair for you to be enganged in defending Kanyeihamba's writings, why is it somehow fair for me to be engaged in defend Ibingira's writings? And I thought that what is good for the goose is good for the gander! >> Let's not get into a vicious circle on this: go back to what we've said and see how we've been moving. Ibingira "a trained attorney", Kanyiehamba "also attorney, a law professor, even a justice of the supreme court" - then you say so what? And I say if Kanyeihamba's credentials don't matter, why should Ibingira's. Then we pick another small issue and write back and forth, ultimately, we are getting distracted from the main issue, aren't we? Bannakampala have a saying these days -- "Lutalo lwa pilaawo na nyamma" ( it is a 'battle of rice pilaf and meat') i.e. it is all the same. In this case both chaps are ex-UPC who had a falling out with their leader.>> I know compatriot Kipenji has said Kanyeihamba was a UPC, but it is not one of the statements I've seen in this Kanyeihamba's book, I may have missed it, granted. But without seeing it, I did not want to commit myself on that, unless you wanted me to do so so that when you get to read the book you accuse me of putting words in Kanyeihamba's mouth. Kanyeihamba, by his own admission, was a junior lecturer by the late 1960s, so, of course, if he was a UPC at the time Ibingira was, he could not have been as close to the "in" as Ibingira was - one for Ibingira. Secondly, if it is true that Kanyeihamba fell out with Obote, their falling out could not have been on the same scale as the Obote-Ibingira one - agree? one round to Best regards, Yoswa.
Re: ugnet_: Re: Kanyeihamba on the Phantom Armsofthe1960s,Ibingira andtheConspiracies
>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 07/24/03 02:07AM >>> I thought Mr. Kanyeihamba's expertise was in law as it applies to urban planning rather than constitutional law. At least that is what his 1974 dissertation title at the University of Warwick (not Warwich, as he puts it elsewhere) would lead one to believe (Kanyeihamba, George W.. - Law in urban planning and development in East Africa). I think he also has a pamphlet on the topic (published 1978).>>> That may be so. The backpage of his new book lists his other publications as: "among others Constitutional Law and government in Uganda; Planning Law in East Africa; Urban Legal Problems in East Africa (with Prof P McAuslan); Reflections on Uganda Muslim Leadership Crisis; Constitutional Obligation in the Developing Countries" Be that as it may, I think it is clear that no letter, linking Ssekabaka Muteesa II to the fictitious importation of arm to overthrow the Uganda goverment by force, exists anywhere.>> Okay, NO LETTER exists. Was any ever written? >>>No matter how many people repeat a lie or how frequently they do it, it does not thereby become an established fact. I'd hope that Kanyeihamba, as lawyer and judge, might be familiar with this concept. May you live to understand that this principle may apply even to you! Much as Obote die-hards might find it difficult to believe: the short answer and innescapable conclusion is that Obote lied & connived, as was his wont. Grace Ibingira, his former colleague and confidant -- and UPC legal advisor to boot -- said so in very simple and plain English.> To paraphrase Shakespear, .and Ibingira was an honourable man, not given to prejudices, conspiracies... >I suspect that in this here neck-of-the-woods he would be called a filthy-layin' S.O.B. but this is not exactly news either. I have addressed the other issues elsewhere and will not belabor them here. What is news is that you've now started using such language! As to the royal 'we', er, we are not amused ... Much obliged to not amuse you:-) Best regards, Yoswa
Re: ugnet_: Re: [DPNet] Re: Kanyeihamba on the PhantomArmsofthe1960s,IbingiraandtheConspiracies
My brother Ssemakula, I have not gone off anything! Kenneth Ingham was a strawman of your construction, you brought him in, and all I did was point out that the revealations about him were in the very book you mentioned. Now if a reviewer, worth his salt, sidesteps that information and evaluates the book as if Ingham was a disinterested observer, do we fault Ingham or do we fault the reviewer's view? As I said, I have that book but did not make reference to it for such reasons. >>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 07/24/03 07:12PM You seem to have gone off the deep-end here, judging from the uncharacteristic amount of fluff in your response. Anyhow, if you re-read my reponse with respect to Kenneth Ingham (whom, for the record, I misremembered as Keith) you'll note that my emphasis was on his impartiality or objectivity as an observer of Uganda's politics by virtue of his being a foreigner. I think it is important to dispell that mirage. By his own admission he is a card-carrying member of the UPC, and also member of the Legico. Thus he can hardly considered a disinterested party, one way or the other. I did not disagree with that, see above The relevant passage is (emphasis added): 4. Elsewhere, it has been suggested that Keith Ingham, author/editor of books like: The making of modern Uganda (1958, 1983); A History of East Africa (1967), The kingdom of Toro in Uganda (1975), Obote: A Political Biography (1994), etc, was/is a foreigner and therefore somehow an impartial observer of events in Uganda. Nothing could be further from the truth. >>> See what I mean by you constructing a strawman for you to subsequently destroy! Ingham never was part of this conversation until you brought him up, and now you want it known that I've gone off the deep end, oh, well >As for Ssekabaka Muteesa II's comments on the London Constitution Conference, you are at liberty to construe whatever comes to your vivid imigination as it compares to what Ibingira wrote. However, the facts remain that: (1) Muteesa II pre-deceased the publication of Ibingira's books; and (2) iy you were to bother to check the original excerpt from Ibingira's book (African Upheavals Since Independence) that I posted, you'll probably see that Ibingira himself noted that Muteesa II recount of events was incomplete and he (GSI) gave reasons for this.>>> In other words, Ibingira felt free to challenge Sir Edward's writings since the latter was no longer in aposition to dispute the former's account? In Ibingira you really found your Chairman Mao on these issues! Not even The Kabaka's word means ziltch, and yet, "Waliggwa" You conspicuously omitted to comment on thi section of mine.. >>In concluding, Omw Ssemakula, as a scientist, would you ask Ibingira to review a grant proposal submitted by Obote? Would you ask K Ingham to do the same? Would you, given what you know of their relationships? Is it not your rich culture that captures the concept of conflict of interest most aptly in: "Enkima ttesala gwa kibira"? Perhaps what you want to tell us is that the Ibingira-Obote situation is so special that you are prepared to bunk the ancient wisdom of your forefathers. >>> But I am sure you will address those sentiments when you unveil the substantive issues. I do not plan to re-engage you until you get back to the starting point of our discourse. Best regards, Yoswa.
Re: ugnet_: Ibingira on Obote: EFFORTS TO IMPOSE A ONE-PARTYSYSTEM
Ndugu Ssemakula, Thank you for the most recent portion of Ibingira's book. At this point, I shall concede the battle to you: if the additional stuff you promised to post were all from the same book, by the same author, notwithstanding my reservations on the objectivity/credibility of Ibingira as a chronicler of issues about Obote, then we really can't have much of a debate. There are obviously issues which are in the realm of common knowledge, and on those one need not spend a lot of time, e.g. that there was a UPC-KY alliance, that perhaps other members of the UPC initiated the talks to that end, and that Obote openly and publicly called for Ugandans to consider a One-Party state. Where the difficulties arise is when Ibingira goes into Obote's head and explains from the inside (of the head) why what decision was taken. Unlike you, I do not have such strong faith in any individual as to believe that Ibingira would know, for instance, that: "Obote preferred to keep the Acholi fighting each other.." "Obote's real ambition was.", "Obote foresaw a future political struggle" "In Obote's calculations any resistance." The whole section is littered with such unsabstantiated, loaded statements upon which one is expected to form an opinion of the goings on of the time! And this comes shortly after I was taken to task to list another author's sources for claims he made: of course when it comes to Ibingira, it suffices for him to have "known" how Obote was thinking/calculating, etc! Whereas one is tempted to dismiss the entire book (assuming the rest of it is in the same vein) as the work of a man bitter with his one time political friend and ally, one will remain open-minded for guidance from those of you who have the charism to know what extra-ordinary powers Ibingira had. Please post more of the book for my edification, but now I see I'll not be in a position to debate any of the issues Ibingira raised, especially if it is the same style/approach throughout the book. Best regards, Yoswa
ugnet_: Re:
>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 07/29/03 06:28PM >>> Mr. Dambisya, Can you open this slide? http://www.nytimes.com/slideshow/2003/07/26/international/20030727_AFRI_slideshow_6.html MSN 8 helps ELIMINATE E-MAIL VIRUSES. Get 2 months FREE*. > No, I was sent to a registration platform. Best regards, Yoswa
Fwd: Re: ugnet_: Ibingira on Obote: EFFORTS TO IMPOSE AONE-PARTY SYSTEM
Ndugu Ssemakula, my records show that the attached message was sent out some time last week. I am sorry it did not get to you, for which reason I am sending a copy to your personal address. I've not seen anything, yet, to change my view on this, and still welcome more of Ibingira's writings. What is the saying about attaching goats ears to a dog's head (in order to have the dog slaughtered as a goat)? You seem to be hard-bent on doing that to me! Best regards, Yoswa--- Begin Message --- Ndugu Ssemakula, Thank you for the most recent portion of Ibingira's book. At this point, I shall concede the battle to you: if the additional stuff you promised to post were all from the same book, by the same author, notwithstanding my reservations on the objectivity/credibility of Ibingira as a chronicler of issues about Obote, then we really can't have much of a debate. There are obviously issues which are in the realm of common knowledge, and on those one need not spend a lot of time, e.g. that there was a UPC-KY alliance, that perhaps other members of the UPC initiated the talks to that end, and that Obote openly and publicly called for Ugandans to consider a One-Party state. Where the difficulties arise is when Ibingira goes into Obote's head and explains from the inside (of the head) why what decision was taken. Unlike you, I do not have such strong faith in any individual as to believe that Ibingira would know, for instance, that: "Obote preferred to keep the Acholi fighting each other.." "Obote's real ambition was.", "Obote foresaw a future political struggle" "In Obote's calculations any resistance." The whole section is littered with such unsabstantiated, loaded statements upon which one is expected to form an opinion of the goings on of the time! And this comes shortly after I was taken to task to list another author's sources for claims he made: of course when it comes to Ibingira, it suffices for him to have "known" how Obote was thinking/calculating, etc! Whereas one is tempted to dismiss the entire book (assuming the rest of it is in the same vein) as the work of a man bitter with his one time political friend and ally, one will remain open-minded for guidance from those of you who have the charism to know what extra-ordinary powers Ibingira had. Please post more of the book for my edification, but now I see I'll not be in a position to debate any of the issues Ibingira raised, especially if it is the same style/approach throughout the book. Best regards, Yoswa --- End Message ---
Re: ugnet_: Ibingira on Obote's Secret Wars and Abuse ofOffice
Omw.Ssemakula, ask: >>>Where the heck is Mr. Dambisya's promised (threatened?) defense of Obote?<< A question I thought I answered unequivocally.Let me repeat: If all the "accusations" you threatened to post were based on one Ibingira's take on Obote and Obote's purpoted motives/plans etc,and on Ibingira alone, I would accept that you win hands down. However, if you were willing to bring in issues from elsewhere (as in other sources),and were willing to give a hearing to views from others, then we have something to talk about. As matters stand, what do you want from me? Do you want me to dispute the fact that Ibingira wrote what he wrote? Do you want me to dispute the fact that Ibingira hated Obote? You had the cyber-equivalent of a cow when, as a test, I posted a portrayal of the events different from that of your Saint Grace SI (related to the post-1964 events). So the kind of engagement you want is one where I should come in and marvel at what Ibingira said of Obote and we move on! Do you really see me doing that? Diversify your attack if you are really interested in some mental combat on those aspects of our history. Then I shall find it intellectually stimulating to engage in the defense you assigned me. I do not run away from a challange, but let it be a challenge worthy of the name. Best regards, Yoswa. This service is hosted on the Infocom network http://www.infocom.co.ug
Re: ugnet_: Brief biographical sketches of Daudi Ocheng &Grace Ibingira
Ndugu Ssemakula, You are obviously a man on a mission! You are determined to use every opportunity to glorify Ibingira's role in Ugandan Affairs and demonise Obote's contributions, even if it involves bending the truth. Of course that is entirely your choice. However, it is high time you took stock of you efforts; as my people say it is not a sign of weakness for one to look back and see how much one has dug -my people are peasants in the main so digging is a major issue for them. So I urge you to look back and see how much ground you've covered since you opened this front. And as you do that may I urge you not to be over-zealous lest you colour the truth ever so slightly in an attempt to paint as bad a picture of the object of your disapproval. You know careless attention to detail could serve to undermine your mission. For instance,of Ibingira you say/quote/cite: >>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 08/15/03 09:41PM >>> ... Ibingira organized a movement within UPC & outside it to put restraint on Obote's ambitions. He was arrested for it, among other things, on 22 February 1966 by Obote while in the middle of a cabinet meeting considering the terms of reference for s commission of inquiry to censure Obote for looting gold, coffee & ivory from Zaire and for making secret preparations to abrogate the Constitution of Uganda.> Which is partly true to the extent that Ibingira organised an anti-Obote movement within the UPC and that he was arrested during a cabinet meeting. Was that meeting considering terms of reference for a commission of inquiry to censure Obote? Did Ibingira believe that Obote had looted gold, coffee, etc? Did Zaire exist during that debate? What did Ibingira say during the Ocheng Motion? This is part of what the Hansard has on record: ".I would say that while accepting this motion as it stands, an allegation has been made by the Hon the Mover, which I think is of serious magnitude, that is the allegation, not about gold,etc - we have heard those and are tired of them - but of some deliberate design to oust a constitutional government or the overthrow of the constitution and I do not know what view to take on this." On Ibingira's contribution to the debate, Prof Akiiki Mujaju comments: "It is noteworthy that Ibingira is dismissing the gold allegatioons levelled by Daudi Ocheng at, among others, the Prime Minister, and that he was more concerned at the alleged plot to overthrow the constitution." The motion that Ibingira and his clique in cabinet got UPC to accept was: " That this House do urge Government to suspend from duty Col Idi amin of the Uganda Army forthwith pending conclusion of police investigations into the allegations regarding his bank account which should then be passed on to the appropriate authority whose final decision on the matter shall be made public." The debate and interpretation of the vote on that motion have been given the most confusing analysis over the last 30-something years. Prof Akiiki Mujaju did an excellent job of putting issues in perspective. If you can, get your hands on his paper: AB Mujaju. The Gold Allegations Motion and Political Development in Uganda. African Affairs 86 (345): 479-504; October 1987. Therein you will find many sobering statements about the common misconceptions surrounding that singular episode in Uganda's political history, all of which are ably refuted. Some of the unsupported claims that have made it to folklore: 1. That "the govt was defeated on a motion calling for a commission of inquiry into an alleged misappropriation in which Obote was implicated" attributed to BO Nwabueze, who the author describes as "a distinguished constitutional lawayer". The motion never was about Obote, notwithstanding what some members may have said in the course of the debate. No amendment was made to include Obote or any other person in the motion. Secondly, Ibingira and his colleagues got UPC to reverse an earlier UPC Parliamentary group decision to reject the Ocheng motion, consequently, all the UPC MPs present that day, except for John Kakonge voted for the motion. Govt could therefore not lose a motion which the govt side, at the instigation of the cabinet, voted for. 2. That Obote was isolated by the all-against-one vote on the Ocheng motion. Analysis of the contributions from most of the members,including Ocheng himself in summarising the debate, suggest that what the majority wanted was for a inquiry that would clear the PM of any wrong doing. Obwangor, Leader of Govt Business said: "We, as a Government,despite the serious allegations or statements made by the Hon Mover, wish to submit this matter to an inquiry to establsih the truth, if any. Now that does not mean that government accepts these allegations. Now let us not, therefore, be misunderstood that because the Government has accepted this motion,ipso facto there is corruption.far from it". 3. It was the whole cabinet t
ugnet_: A Page from the Past: Gen Amin Talks to Drum... "The Britishare my best friends...."
DRUM: March 1973 President Idi Amin of Uganda Has in a dramatically short time, given marching orders to the Israelis, the British and the Asians. He has also taken uncompromising steps to rid Uganda's streets of armed robbers and prostitutes, and has campaigned against what he calls "phoney missionaries". The controversial soldier-president has been criticised by the foreign press for jeopardizing the economy and of being intolerant of Christian worship, while there have been reports of disappearances of many top Ugandan people. In an exclusive interview, DRUM put these allegations before President Amin. DRUM: Overseas newspapers have been carrying stories about people disappearing in Uganda without trace. AMIN: We in Uganda do not depend on the sensational stories put out by overseas newspapers and even the BBC. Some of these people alleged to have disappeared are staying in the neighbouring countries. They were not chased away from Uganda, but they decided to run away on their own. Where there have been genuine cases of people disappearing - like the case of the two Americans - we have not hesitated to appoint an inquiry. DRUM: Can you say that there has been a drop in crime in Uganda since you came to power? AMIN: Definitely yes. Kondoism has died since I ordered the army to shoot robbers on sight. DRUM: Mr President, can you explain the reasons which led you to embark on what you have described as the "economic war"? AMIN: We embarked on the economic war war because the Asians were milking Uganda's economy. Some were engaged in economic sabotage while others were busy taking their money out of the country. No responsible government can allow this state of affairs to continue. DRUM: What evidence has your government got that the Asians were sabotaging the economy? AMIN: My government is a government of action. We have eyes and we can see things. Some Asians have been caught red-handed trying to take Ugandan money outside the country. In one instance, police raided a mosque in Kampala and found nearly two million shillings in currency notes packed in biscuit tins. These so-called biscuits were due to be exported to Britain. Is this not sabotage? Asians in Uganda have also been sending their money to relatives and friends in the neighbouring African countries. We cannot tolerate a situation in which our economy is being mlked by foreigners. DRUM: What progress has Uganda made in winning the economic war? AMIN: We have made a lot of progress. Shops vacated by departing Asians are being allocated to Ugandans. The banks are ready with money to give to those African traders who apply for overdrafts. There are so many African countries ready to help Uganda with personnel to replace the non-Ugandans who have left. DRUM: Can you say something about your relations with Great Britain? AMIN: The British are my best friends, but they are annoyed because I have kicked out the British Asians. They can say what they like. I have no time for imperialists. They have decided to cut off financial and technical aid to Uganda, but we do not worry. There are so many countries ready to help us. The British are very much annoyed with us now because they are spending between £7 million and £8 million a year feeding the British Asian refugees in camps allover Europe. If the British want friendship, we are prepared to remain friends, but the steps I have taken to hand over the economy of Uganda to Ugandans are here to stay. We have to win the economic war. DRUM: Is there freedom of worship in Uganda? If so, why are you being accused of persecuting Christians? AMIN: In Uganda there is complete freedom of worship and everyone can follow whatever religion he or she chooses. My quarrel with Christian bishops is that some of the White missionaries in the country are not missionaries in the real sense. They are mercenaries. Some are spies. I feel that the security of the people of Uganda is my paramount task. Some of these so-called missionaries do not even know the Bible. You will understand, therefore, why I have not been disposed towards such missionaries because when trouble starts, it is the people of Uganda who will suffer. DRUM: You frequently condemn young women for the way they behave and dress. Do you think you are being fair to them? AMIN: I am totally against loose living by some women in Uganda. Some of them have gone elsewhere in Africa and are doing terrible things there with Europeans. Some are loitering in our towns at night looking for customers. To make matters worse, some of our women are spying for foreigners. This must stop. It is no use saying that these prostitutes are a minority. As far as I can see, they are women and that spoils the image of Uganda. I have already banned the min-skirt and other sexy dresses. The next step will be to round up all town women and take them to camps in rural areas where they will be fed and made to work on the l
ugnet_: JMW Kiryabwire, Neurosurgeon, Is Dead!
My compatriots, I have just been informed of the death of Mr Jovan Mabudo W Kiryabwire, Senior Neurosurgeon and lately Member of the Health Services Commission. To those of us who went through Kiryabiwre's hands at one time or another this comes as a severe blow, for he was truly one of the pillars of the profession. For those who may not have known him/of him, for a long while Kiryabwire was the (only) neurosurgeon at Mulago. Still in deep shock, Yoswa This service is hosted on the Infocom network http://www.infocom.co.ug
Re: ugnet_: "Federation the answer for Uganda" by Prof.Bukenya ( 1st May, 2002)
My fellow compatriots, if "Federation is the answer for Uganda", what is the question? I find it odd that almost everybody is talking about the "answer" to a question that is not patently clear to everyone. Can we have the right question(s) asked before we evaluate the answer? Or do we want to have the question put based on the answer(s) we have? Incidentally, did I read something (recently) suggesting that Prof Bukenya has become more circumspect on the Federo issue? Best regards, Yoswa. ___ Prof Yoswa M Dambisya School of Health Sciences University of the North Private Bag X1106 SOVENGA 0727 SOUTH AFRICA Phone: +27 15 268 2353 Fax: +27 15 268 2523. Alternate e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 02/13/03 01:11PM >>> Federation the answer for Uganda:With land about half of Buganda, South Tyrol produces 30% of apples produced in Italy ONE of the subjects hotly discussed in Uganda for the last several months has been Federal or to spoil the soup, Federo. When one critically assesses the arguments for a federal system, a great number of people merely yearn for a "degree of devolution for power" to relatively large areas (regions), big enough to manage their affairs including economic self-sustenance. Not bad at all! During my nomadism on this great planet, I have observed near perfect federated states in big and small countries (USA, Germany, Australia, Papua New Guinea, and so on). I understand that even Westminister has joined the movement by devolution of power to Scotland, Northern Ireland, Wales and I hear East Anglia also wants it. These are all indicators that there might be something good in federal. This week I was the guest of Dr Luis Dumwalder, the President of the autonomous province of South Tyrol or commonly referred to locally as "Sud! tirol". A magnificent province located in the valleys of the Alps with a small but well managed capital Bozen or Bolzano in Northern Italy. The Tyrolese are highly motivated, hardworking, devoted Italians but also to their Tyrol. With a land mass about half of Buganda, they produce 30% of all apples produced in Italy and 10% of all apples eaten in the European Union. "Economic viability!" In the devolution, the Central Government of Italy has retained the authority for Defence, Finance, Foreign Affairs, Tax collection, partially Justice and Police. However, 90% of tax collected in South Tyrol is given back to the province of Tyrol which is responsible for Health, Education, Culture, Agriculture, Local road networks, local police and judiciary. But this must all be done within the limits of the Constitution of Italy. This concept of devolution seen here in South Tyrol and elsewhere focuses on many issues but mostly the capacity for self-sustaining eco! nomy not merely fragmented units waiting for hand-cuts from th! e centre . Everyday that passes since this subject became hotly discussed in Uganda, I get more and more inclined to believe that federation is the answer for Uganda. Federation certainly reduces political pressure for competition to the narrow space in the national leadership and allows for internal economic competition between the federated units which in my view is healthy. I see no danger if these units manage their social services, local road-networks, culture, agriculture, partial judiciary and police, with 70% of taxes collected within the unit being retained there for implementing of their responsibilities. Certainly my journey to South Tyrol was a good one because I was able to see the value of devolution. Can I say like Winston Churchill, "my journey was worth two years at University". And while I was away, my President hosted my Kabaka to a party at his Rwakitura home. This is part of cultural devolution! The next could be total devolution, ! who knows? Prof Gilbert B. Bukenya Minister in charge of the PresidencyNew Vision, Published on: Wednesday, 1st May, 2002 Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8.
Re: ugnet_: "Federation the answer for Uganda" by Prof.Bukenya ( 1st May, 2002)
My question about what the question is drew two responses, not surprisingly from two arch-federalists. I thank both of you, gentlemen, for your responses. Mw Ssemakula, I am not satisfied with the status quo. What I remain unsure of is whether the ultimate cure is federalism, hence my query. Dr Kigongo, believe you me, if even a person like me (who sometimes pretends to be enlightened) struggles to know what the question is, then it cannot be obvious! There is no doubt that it is obvious to you, but I doubt that it is elusive to others just because they are not interested in Ugandan Affairs. Frankly, there are times when I feel we are approaching all Uganda's problems with the "if the only tool you have..." mentality. Hence, we have prescribed federo for the ailment of corruption, federo for underdevelopment, federo for the lack of national unity, federo for excessive presidential powers, federo for declining social services, and the list goes on. Makes one wonder: Is this federo animal not too good to be true? And if it is so good, what's keeping it at bay? Some time during the Odoki consultation exercise, I wrote ( in Weekly Topic) calling the whole thing an exercise in futility. I therefore agree with you that the appointment of the Ssempewa commission was an admission that the magic bullet (the 1995 Constitution) missed the target, after all. But it was bound to do just that, for someone, somewhere, decided that the answer for Uganda would be to write a new constitution! We are back to square one, because someone, somewhere, somehow, got wind of the fact that the bullet needed to be fine-tuned. Whatever concessions are made, whatever amendments are made, there will still be unresolved issues that will need another answer all together. I don't know what those will be, but it's in our nature to event more questions/problems. In the early 1990s, a few USA-based Ugandans started Ugandanet. Soon they were joined by others with e-mail access around the world. Those who followed the fortunes of this discussion forum will agree that the years 1994& 1995 were perhaps Ugandanet's finest hour. The Ugandan press could not get enough of the discussions you guys held. There was a meeting of minds when an issue of national importance arose. I remember the letter of protest against the swindling of funds at the Abuja Mission which was unanimously accepted by all. Indeed, even as late as 1996 it was possible to get a cross-sectional group of Ugandans writing an appeal for peace talks to end the Northern Conflict, and an even larger group signing the final document. To me that was when there was a "unitary" net for all Ugandans. The federo concept took over, with special interest fora started every other day. Today we have Bugandanet, Acholinet, Japnet, federonet, DPnet, UPCnet, OldBudonians.. My problem is, who is listening to whom? If all of us who are pro-federo bunch together and develop wonderful ideas on federalism on federonet, of what use are those ideas in getting others to our side? If we the "Japs" discuss our issues only amongst ourselves, do we blame the rest if they don't see things from our point of view? My question to you both, then, is if the fortunes of Ugandanet (and cyber-communication as a whole) were a model for Uganda, would you recommend unitarism or federalism? Best regards, Yoswa. What is your answer to the question, Dr Dambisya. Kigongo
ugnet_: Re: [FedsNet] Part 111 BUGANDA CRISIS 1964 -- PhantomArms of the 1960s
Ndugu Ssemakula, While I am enjoying these exchanges of yours regarding our not so distant political history, I am bemused by the fact that you would characterise as "authoritative" anything said by Grace Ibingira of Milton Obote and his times. Evidently, the two differed in very fundamental ways; one was imprisoned by the other; each felt betrayed by the other. Supposing Milton Obote were to write about Grace Ibingira (as I believe he did during some exchanges with a London Friend), would you accept his writings/sayings as authoritative on said subject? I've just got hold of Kanyeihamba's recent book, I intend to go through it when time allows. Pinycwa's foreword seems to prepare the reader for yet another biased account of Uganda's constitutional and political developments. Where, then, does one turn for unbiased, objective and authentic reading on Uganda? Best regards, Yoswa
Re: ugnet_: Part 111 BUGANDA CRISIS 1964 -- Phantom Arms ofthe 1960s
Omw Ssemakula, I did not mean to say/imply that you are naive in any way, it is your sophistication and grasp of issues Ugandans that is cause for the bemusement I referred to. I shall welcome your futher exposure of the villain that Obote is, using whatever sources you select; I am sure there is no shortage of uncharitable remarks about him. I am still perplexed that on Obote Ibingira is to you just a short step from sainthod! Yet you dodge the question of whether Obote's view of Ibingira's activities at the time would be equally authoritative. Unlike you, I am unable to characterise either of those two sons of Uganda or any of their actions as stupid, even less likely, "too stupid", not that I doubt you are eminently qualified to do so. I shall, therefore rely on your judgement. And should you, in your wisdom, decide that Obote is my hero, and that it's my role to defend him, I shall not disappoint you. I know you are aware of what you are asking me to do, so spill the beans! Best regards, Yoswa >>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 07/16/03 10:09PM >>> Mr. Dambisya, Your bemusement is hardly at stake here. The Baganda have a saying that "Gwe wabbanga naye, bwakusula e manju tewebaka". Loosely translated: 'when your former co-thief visits with you, you do not sleep easily.' The late Grace Ibingira was not your regular UPC mindless/ignorant minion. Rather, as Secretary-General of the UPC, a Cabinet Minister, a trained attorney at law and legal adviser to the UPC, he was very much an insider who was privy to a great deal that really went on in the party -- not just what was dished out for the gullible public. As such, one can expect him to be an authoritative source of the UPC internal/private machinations, precisely because he fell out with Obote -- a factor the latter seems to have been too stupid to fathom the import of. It probably came as a rude surprise to Obote, that Ibingira had been "taking notes" all the time he was with him. Now, I am not so naive as to fail to realize that as a former victim of Obote, Ibingira might have an axe to grind. What Ibingira did was "to spill his guts", "to sing" about facts he had intimate knowledge of , having been such an important heavyhitter in the party. Calling Ibingira's changed loyalties from the UPC & Obote "bias" is not only laughable, it does zilch to undermine the facts he presented in the court public opinion. Further, it is accepted practice in courts of law for the prosecution to get accomplices to testify against each other. If you have anything to say about it in defence of your hero, you had best address the facts Ibingira presented -- more of which you can expect to see here. Ssemakula ps: Later, I'll get to what Mandela had to say of Obote in the pre-OAU days. Start preparing for the defence of your hero ... A minor correction, the Muganda man who educated Obote, Nekyon, etc in Lango after Obote's biological father died of leprosy was Nalwemanyidde of the Nseenene clan, not Nalwerimidde as I had posted earlier. It has been said, that he sort of semi-adopted them, but that is another story. Original Message Follows From: "YOSWA DAMBISYA" Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: , CC: Subject: ugnet_: Re: [FedsNet] Part 111 BUGANDA CRISIS 1964 -- PhantomArms of the 1960s Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 10:10:59 +0200 Ndugu Ssemakula, While I am enjoying these exchanges of yours regarding our not so distant political history, I am bemused by the fact that you would characterise as "authoritative" anything said by Grace Ibingira of Milton Obote and his times. Evidently, the two differed in very fundamental ways; one was imprisoned by the other; each felt betrayed by the other. Supposing Milton Obote were to write about Grace Ibingira (as I believe he did during some exchanges with a London Friend), would you accept his writings/sayings as authoritative on said subject? I've just got hold of Kanyeihamba's recent book, I intend to go through it when time allows. Pinycwa's foreword seems to prepare the reader for yet another biased account of Uganda's constitutional and political developments. Where, then, does one turn for unbiased, objective and authentic reading on Uganda? Best regards, Yoswa MSN 8 helps ELIMINATE E-MAIL VIRUSES. Get 2 months FREE*.
Re: ugnet_: Part 111 BUGANDA CRISIS 1964 -- Phantom Arms ofthe1960s
My brother Ssemakula, to the question: >>Where and how have I considered, even remotely, that Ibingira is a just a short step away from sainthood? The answer lies in: >>2. With regard to his credibility as a source of information about Obote's megalominiacal and insatiable hunger for power and the extents to which he is willing to go to achieve his personal goals, as well as the inner workings of the UPC, I stated that Ibingira was (a) a trained lawyer, (b) a former Secretary-General of the UPC, (c) a legal adviser to the UPC, and (d) a former cabinet minister in Obote's government. And the inference that given the above, whatever he says must be taken as gospel truth. But let's not get bogged down on a few semantic/technical details or interpretations such as this one. I am still waiting for the other beans so I can prepare the defence you asked me to. On a lighter note, those of us living outside the USA have the feeling that in the USA lawyers are quite low down in the credibility rankings, thanx to the many drams/sitcoms, it is therefore nice to know that your Ugandan upbringing has not coloured your view of lawyers, trained or otherwise. Best regards, Yoswa
ugnet_: Kanyeihamba on the Phantom Arms ofthe1960s, Ibingira and theConspiracies
Omw Ssemakula, As I await the evidence which you expect me to dispute in defense of Milton Obote and his part in the 1960s developments, I have been reading "Justice Prof Dr GW Kanyeihamba; LLB, LLM, PhD, JSC, SC" 's recently released book: Constitutional and Political History of Uganda: From 1984 to the Present. I found a section on what he refers to as the "Dramatic Years, 1962-1966" and "The Conspiracies" therein particularly relevant to the issue of the phantom arms. I have attempted to reproduce sections of the book for the edification of those who may not have got hold of the book yet. I apologise for any mistakes that I may have made in the process but are willing to correct them as the discussions proceed. The quotes are taken from pages 88-94. "...By 1965, the divisionist and traditionalist elements had penetrated the party, and acquired active supporters within the rank and file of the party followers**. The party was torn by confusion because many of those voices belonged to some of the most influential leaders of the party* After the successful referendum and successful transfer of the two "Lost Counties" to Bunyoro in 1964, the animosity of Buganda towards the Obote government and UPC escalated. Buganda traditionalists at Mengo begun to exploit all possible political angles with the aim of undermining and eventually removing Obote from power. A political alliance between the Kabaka, his ministers and disgruntled elements within UPC was reached. The latter included and was led by the then Minister of Justice, Grace Ibingira, who was at the same time, the Secretary General of UPC. He had **Balaki Kirya, George Magezi and Dr Emmanuel Lumu, who were also Cabinet Ministers in Obote's government*.. " In conjunction with the Mengo traditionalists and with the consent of the President, Edward Mutesa II, the King of Buganda, the conspirators approved the contents of a letter which was sent to Her Majesty, Elizabeth II, the Queen of the United Kingdom and Head of the Commonwealth, requesting her government to supply them with guns so that they could fight and overthrow Milton Obote***.. Her Majesty declined the request. " The conspirators next turned to the British High Commission in Uganda and requested it to get in touch with British private firms of gun manufacturers and ask them to supply guns. Gailey and Roberts**.. were contacted but they too declined to assist the conspiracy, but somehow through some other means, which have not been revealed by anyone, the conspirators managed to get hold of some guns and ammunition. This first part of the conspiracy, which was purely military was then truly set. " The next stage of the conspiracy was political. King Mutesa and the first group of conspirators began to persuade others from Central Government, Parliament and the opposition groups to join them in the mission of overthrowing the Obote government. Part of the plans to discredit that Government was for the Opposition group in Parliament to bring charges and allegations of corruption and abuse of power against Obote and his close associates so as to debate a motion of a Vote of No Confidence in Obote and pass it in Parliament. An interesting phenomenon developed*** People who had been entrusted with maintenance of the Westminster model of democracy in Uganda were now dissenting from their own party policies..They would eat their cake and have it a the same time. They kept their ministerial portfolios thus flattering the Prime Minister, while at the same time working secretly for his downfall. " The feudalists and traditionalists who joined the conspiracy had thought that they had lost so much under Obote. The dignity and grandeur of traditionalism required a government that respected the rulers, chiefs and the proprietary rights of the privileged few in the country. The Obote Government was radical; at least it claimed to be***..the Obote Government was putting common people above the traditional rulers and their henchmen. This trend had to be stopped by the creation of a government which would owe allegiance to the country's traditional groups rather than to the masses. " The third conspiracy was supposed to be inspired and led by the Prime Minister himself. According to his accusers, who included Mutesa himself, this group had as their motives, the destruction of the Independence Constitution, the establishment of a leftist dictatorship, the undermining of Uganda's ancient traditions and customs and the take-over by the state of personal property which had been built through individual private enterprise. " A study of the events at that time reveals sufficient evidence to suggest that the first and second conspiracies existed in one form or another. We shall discuss the third conspiracy first. There is no doubt that the UPC always claimed to be radical and socialist**the party claimed to represent the masses of Ugand
Re: [Ugnet] Selling and giving what doesn't belong to hi m: President *donates* Dairy Corp
Is this not the ultimate show of arrogance of power? I am waiting for someone to tell us that the papers got it all wrong, it seems they may have it right. I think as a nation we have to decide when enough is too much! Reading through the account, the price for the corporation is really the plant to be constructed in Mbarara. That is a BRIBE however you look at it. I hope Justice Faith Mwondha's office (IGG) is following these developments. Best regards, Yoswa >>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 01/30/05 7:02 PM >>> President 'donates' Dairy Corp to Thai By Andrew M. Mwenda Jan 30, 2005 KAMPALA - President Museveni has directed that the Dairy Corporation Limited be given to a Thai businessman at a fee of only one dollar. Highly placed sources at State House said that the President's directive was issued on Thursday last week. Our investigations show that the Privatisation Unit (PU), under the ministry of Finance, Planning and Economic Development, scheduled the Dairy Corporation for privatisation early last year. Sources said the exercise had reached the state of pre-qualifying bidders through competitive bidding. However, on October 25, 2004, Vice President Gilbert Bukenya wrote the minister responsible for privatisation, Prof. Peter Kasenene, saying: "His Excellency the President has directed that Dairy Corporation should be given to Malee Sampran Sampran Public Company Limited whose chairman is Mr. Chatchai Boonyarat for a period of three years." The letter further says, "This is therefore to direct you to initiate the process of drawing up the terms of the lease so as to finalise the lease agreement in order to enable the Malee Company to commence operation by January 2005." The PU complied with the President's directive and drew up a draft agreement for the lease to the Thai company. However, sources say, the PU drew up an agreement in which it required Malee to pay a $1 million as lump some payment for the lease, then oblige the company to pay a percentage of the profits from Dairy Corporation to the government, and also to pay a yearly rental fee to the government. A highly placed source at State House said that when the President learnt of the requirements under the draft lease agreement, State House issued yet another directive to the PU to remove all the payment provisions of the draft. Instead, the source said, State House directed that Malee should only pay $1 (one dollar) - a nominal fee - for Dairy Corporation, virtually handing the corporation to the Thai businessman on a silver platter. People familiar with the transaction said that because of the State House directive, Malee will take Dairy Corporation from the PU even without presenting a business plan on what it intends to do with the corporation. The only promise the Malee chairman has made is that he will, within one year of taking over the corporation, build a dairy plant in Mbarara from the profits he makes. The Sunday Monitor has learnt that Malee chairman Boonyarat is not going to invest here as Malee but will float a company locally to take over Dairy Corporation. "Yes, there was a government directive to offer Dairy Corporation to Malee and the [privatisation] minister can answer all the other details," said PU Executive Director Michael Opagi. Minister Kasenene confirmed on Friday the details outlined here save for the nominal fee. "We have not yet agreed on the figure, so the one dollar price of Dairy Corporation is false. We shall negotiate with them on the figure." However, sources close to State House maintained that the President's directive was clear: Malee should only be charged a nominal fee, which is usually one dollar. Kasenene then amended his statement and instead said the President directed that PU "should not ask for a prohibitive figure that will frustrate the investor". However, when asked why the President not only disregarded the competitive bidding process but also issued a directive to PU that virtually arm-twists the unit to offer a state owned enterprise to a private foreign investor at a low price, Kasenene said: "That is his prerogative and I cannot comment on it." The PU recapitalised the Dairy Corporation at Shs2 billion toward the end of 2003 to improve its performance, but Kasenene said: "In spite of recapitisation, the Dairy Corporation was still struggling and it needs more capital injection because the machines are old. We did not want to put more money into it, but instead sell it off. It is a strategic enterprise which if it collapsed, the farmers would suffer." The Dairy Corporation was established in 1967 as a parastatal in the ministry of agriculture, animal industry and fisheries. In 1998, a new law was passed separating the commercial from the regulatory and development functions of the corporation. The number of farmers selling milk to the corpora
[Ugnet] Re: Africa's longest ruling leader falls
The irony is that after 4 decades in power Eyadema failed to put in place one health facility to which he could be taken "in case he got a heart attack",as indeed happened. For how long are our leadrs going to die, "While being taken for treatment", "While on treatment..." "while preparations are being made to take him for treatment" in some European/American/foreign country? Supposing those countries also took health care as the joke most African leaders think it is where then would our life presidents (and their pregnant or otherwise relatives fly to?) And yet the Bagwere admonish us against the stick that's far away "Omuiggo gweyala tigwiita ompiri". Were the French hospitals a stick-too- far for Eyadema's snake that was the heart ailment? I hope those who have ears are listening, and those with eyes seeing, for such is the cruel reality in the game o f life. On the life president's death, I can only repeat what one wise philosopher has already said - "the death of every man diminishes me" Best regards, Yoswa > It should be said that in his 38-year rule, > Togo has been duly going through the democratic > process of voting into power the person of their > choice, and it has always ostensibly been Eyadema. > There is no other African leader who has perpetuated > the legacy of overstaying like him. To all intents, > Eyadema was a life president - he lived, worked, and > died in office. > > Luckily, such negative legacies are becoming > unfashionable, even in Africa. > > While we mourn his passing, we should also > take virtue in short ruling practices which are > constitutionally brought about, devoid of military > pressures that normally compromise the rule of > constitutionalism. > > Governments need to change hands. > > Africa also needs strong administrative > institutions to ensure peaceful and expected change. > Failure to put in place and respect the said > institutions always leads to chaos. It is the > bounden duty of our leaders to desist from > manipulations and machinations to perpetuate > themselves in power. > > This is counterproductive, as the social, > political and economic order certainly falls with > the strongman who elects to single handedly guide > his country's destiny, when that leader falls. It is > not a praiseworthy epitaph by a long shot. > > Eyadema should be the last ruler from this > malaise-prone continent to rule this long. It is > neither healthy nor politically desirable, and the > time is ripe to change from being rulers to leaders. > > There is no doubt that Eyadema had done some > good for his countrymen and women, but this is going > to be permanently interred with his body, to leave > the ugly head of 'dictator' reigning on earth, long > after he is gone. Not that people are uncharitable, > but when they get robbed of their human rights and > then gagged - either with juicy morsels or the most > common manner of threat to life - they tend to > remember this more vividly than chance developments. > > Like the rest of Africa, Uganda should work > towards not beating Eyadema's record as overstayers, > but to become selfless abstainers, for the love of > law, even when the whole nation loudly professes > undying reverence for our great leaders, and would > surely force them to rule until they become like > Eyadema. > > > > > © 2005 The Monitor Publications. > > > > > __ Do you Yahoo!? Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail ___ Ugandanet mailing list Ugandanet@kym.net http://kym.net/mailman/listinfo/ugandanet % UGANDANET is generously hosted by INFOCOM http://www.infocom.co.ug/
[Ugnet] The Peace talks: Ten Years Too Late?
Those of you who were on Ugandanet in 1996 wil lremember the concerted effort and collective determination by a cross-section of Ugandans from around the world that culminated in an e-petition to the governement to initiate peace talks with the LRA and end the war in the north. For those who joined after that, the net-community then asked Prof Charles Olweny (Canada), Prof Geoffrey Buga (South Africa) and myself (then in Singapore) to draft the petition and have it okayed and signed by willing members of the net. This we did and, if memory serves me right, a duly signed petition was submitted to governement in (or around April 1996), notwithstanding Museveni's promise to end the war in 90 days. And as we all know that noble effort was misunderstood as being "anti-governement" or being supported by forces that were anti-government. And yet our plea was simple: it did not matter who was stronger, it did not matter who was right, the truth was that the suffering among the people in the war zone was too much and the only way to end it, and end it fast was by sitting down to talk. Members will therefore excuse my scepticism regarding the Juba talks - certainly too little,too late for a whole generation of our compatriots who have been born and raised in the captivity of the IDPs. Best regards, Yoswa PS: Compatriot Ochan Otim, you keep records very well, do you by any chance have that letter/petition among your saved docs somewhere? I'd like to refresh my memory on our thinking at the time. ___ Ugandanet mailing list Ugandanet@kym.net http://kym.net/mailman/listinfo/ugandanet % UGANDANET is generously hosted by INFOCOM http://www.infocom.co.ug/ The above comments and data are owned by whoever posted them (including attachments if any). The List's Host is not responsible for them in any way. ---
[Ugnet] Lucky Dube Murdered
We woke up to the shocking news of the gunning down of Lucky Dube, arguably the musicians Ugandans love most, last night in a Johannesburg suburb. The incident happened in an attempted hijacking, and was witnessed by his two children who were with him at the time (around 7 PM). No arrests so far. One is left at a loss for words at such tradegy! Still in shock, Yoswa ___ Ugandanet mailing list Ugandanet@kym.net http://kym.net/mailman/listinfo/ugandanet % UGANDANET is generously hosted by INFOCOM http://www.infocom.co.ug/ The above comments and data are owned by whoever posted them (including attachments if any). The List's Host is not responsible for them in any way. ---
Re: ugnet_: Fate & career destinations of Makerere Medical School graduates
Ndugu Ochan, Thanks for bringing this article to Ugandanet's attention. The BMJ allows free access to the full paper. Comments welcome! Best regards, Yoswa >>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 08/15/04 08:48PM >>> "Death has been a bigger brain drain than emigration among the 1984 Ugandan [medical] graduates", says Yoswa M Dambisya in an article entitled "The fate and career destinations of doctors who qualified at Uganda's Makerere Medical School in 1984: retrospective cohort study" published in the August 5, 2004 issue of the British Medical Journal. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=15297304 Ochan Otim NB: I hope you will find time to read and sign a petition to stop the Northern Uganda carnage at: http://www.petitiononline.com/savacoli/petition.html This service is hosted on the Infocom network http://www.infocom.co.ug
ugnet_: RE: Re: ugnet : Fate & career destinations of Makerere Medical
Compatriot Bwanika, I do not have the answers to the questions you pause below regarding the state of affairs of our doctors, yet. A number of us are trying to work on those questions, if we do not abandon the exercise mid-way, we should have the answers in the near future. One of the challenges has been to convince the policy makers that those are questions that need addressing! To answer a few:>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 08/16/04 10:21AM >>> >>>The number was relatively big produced by Makerere 1984 that must be really essential. I wonder what the situation is now that we have Kabale medical school and Mbarara univeristy? I don't know about the output from Kabale, but the Mbarara + Makerere output is certainly more than the 70-80 of 20 years ago. Sewankambo and others (Afr Health Sciences, 3: 94-101; 2003) state that Makerere's capacity (output of doctors) has not improved significantly from what it was in 1979 when the nation's population was much smaller. In effect, then, we are lagging behind the human resource requirements.Certainly the number of doctors, Uganda produce must be higher however- last year it was mentioned that about 200 Úganda medical doctors had no jobs! Regarding the unemployed doctors, according to the directorate of clinical services at the Ministry of Health, they have vacancies for doctors allover the country. But it is also true that some doctors are posted to hospitals where they are refused to work because "the district council does not want to pay them". It is a fascinating outcome of decentralization I have not understood carefully, yet. >>>What is the situation as per the issues you mention in your research report? Given the retrospective nature of the work that informed that report, most of those issues are speculative, but as mentioned above,we'll get some answers in due course.>>>Lastly- Uganda lacks drugs and facilities for good proffesional practice in medicine - some healthy units have surgical facilities but no electricity, labrotories and drugs. and the pay seems to very small but and i say but I have seen some medical doctors driving and in very good healthy - those working for public health units what is their cummulative salary in uganda shillings? I don't have the figures at hand, but an intern earns about US $ 150-220 per month, gross. The scales escalate to the levelof the senior consultants whose grosss pay is about US$ 500.00. Those with the real figures please help. What seems to be behind the apparent prosperity you saw among the doctors in Uganda is their ability to supplement their income by doing private practice on the side (for consultants in some units this is sanctioned at their hospitals,e.g. the private wing at Mulago Hosp), and also by involvement in other activities - poultry,piggery,you name it. Thank you for your interest in these issues. Best regards, Yoswa
Re: ugnet_: Fwd: Study Suggests Language Shapes Thoughts
>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 08/25/04 12:33AM >>> an aside: In Luganda anaimals are generally uncountable. Thus enkoko can mean 1 or many chickens, and so it is with cattle and many animals (empologoma, embizzi, embuzi , etc) However, as a friend told me, in Lugwere -- with which Luganda has about 68% lexical similarity, onkoko is one chicken and enkoko is 2 or more. Likewise, onte is one cow, and ente are 2 or more cows. What about counting in other languages? >> Compatriot Ssemakula, I thought you would take that observation to its logical conclusion, which in line with the thesis of the summarised report should suggest that there are differences in the way the Bagwere and Baganda "think". Not that I expect any such inference to stand to scrutiny. On a more serious note,don't you think your example is out of context to the extent that it suggests that one can never know whether a Muganda is talking about one chicken or more than one? "My chicken is lost" is certainly understandably different from "My chickens are lost" - Enkoko yange vs Enkoko zange.., not so? After all, even English,ever confused as it is, has one sheep, 2 sheep.; but I thought the point of the report (as summarised) was that when it comes to 1,2,3, the group studied did not make a fine distinction between fairly large numbers. Interesting stuff! Best regards, Yoswa New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! This service is hosted on the Infocom network http://www.infocom.co.ug
