[UC] More about the liquor store/mosque

[Krfapt]

For those who think I was making up the opposition being voiced by the  
people at the mosque -- this, now, as a follow-up in today's DP.
 
A voice of rationality in a world of hyperbole ®
Al Krigman
 

 
 
Potential move brings potential conflict
Possible move of liquor store to 43rd, Walnut brings protest  from local 
mosque
Madeleine Kronovet

For students living on Beige Block, the potential move of  the liquor store 
closer to the area may be a godsend.

But to Ahmed  Rushdie, the news is nothing less than "insulting."

Officials familiar  with the negotiations say that there are talks to move 
the 41st and Market  streets liquor store to 43rd and Walnut streets, a 
location 
close in proximity  to a K-8 school and a community mosque.

The Masjid Al-Jamia Mosque is  located at 4228 Walnut St., while the 
Penn-Alexander school is at 4209 Spruce  St.

Rushdie, a professor in Penn's Near Eastern Language and  Civilizations 
Department and a board member of Masjid Al-Jamia, says the move  raises serious 
issues for Muslims in the area - under Islamic law, it is illegal  for Muslims 
to 
consume alcohol.

Rushdie's concerns go further than  religious convictions, however: He said 
Masjid Al-Jamia is most concerned about  the possible negative side effects 
that a liquor store might have for the  area.

"Most importantly, it's really bad for the neighborhood because  there are 
many families, and [it would be] less than 300 feet from the school on  42nd" 
Street, he said. "We're not disputing the relocation of this store because  
it's 
a religious matter only."

Although the Pennsylvania Liquor Control  Board has denied that there are 
present plans to move the store, Spruce Hill  Community Association officials 
and 
the building's developer have both confirmed  that a zoning-board meeting - 
in which community members will be allowed to  voice their concerns - will be 
held Feb. 28 to discuss the move.

"I'm  sure the mosque will be there, make their case [and] be heard," said 
Barry  Grossbach, chairman of the Spruce Hill Zoning Committee. All parties 
"have the  right to speak, and then the zoning committee decides."

If the PLCB were  to move locations, they would need to obtain a permit 
approved by the Zoning  Board of Adjustment.

And the Muslim community hopes that, at the meeting,  its voice will be 
heard. 

"If this is the motivation of the establishment  or to further fuel the 
pockets of the government through liquor tax, I'm  unsure," said area resident 
Asalamu Alaikum, a member of Masjid Al-Jamia.  "However, we all agree that we 
don't want to see our community fall victim to  these types of establishments, 
as 
others have done all too  often."

College junior Artina Sheikh, vice president of the Penn Muslim  Student 
Association, also spoke out against the possible relocation.

"The  MSA is extremely concerned over this issue and objects to this 
establishment  because of the moral implications of permitting wider 
distribution of 
alcohol to  society at large," she said.

But Grossbach said he hopes that an amiable  conclusion can eventually be 
reached. 

"Everyone is looking to find some  solution � that is acceptable across the 
board," he  said.


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Re: [UC] More about the liquor store/mosque

[Mike]

I find some of these arguments misguided at best and disingenuous at
worst.

On Fri, 23 Feb 2007 08:10:18 EST, [EMAIL PROTECTED] said:
> For those who think I was making up the opposition being voiced by the
> people at the mosque -- this, now, as a follow-up in today's DP.
>
> A voice of rationality in a world of hyperbole ® Al Krigman
>
> 
>
>
> Potential move brings potential conflict Possible move of liquor store
> to 43rd, Walnut brings protest  from local mosque Madeleine Kronovet
>
> For students living on Beige Block, the potential move of  the liquor
> store closer to the area may be a godsend.
>
> But to Ahmed  Rushdie, the news is nothing less than "insulting."
>
> Officials familiar  with the negotiations say that there are talks to
> move the 41st and Market  streets liquor store to 43rd and Walnut
> streets, a location close in proximity  to a K-8 school and a
> community mosque.
>
> The Masjid Al-Jamia Mosque is  located at 4228 Walnut St., while the
> Penn-Alexander school is at 4209 Spruce  St.
>
> Rushdie, a professor in Penn's Near Eastern Language and
> Civilizations Department and a board member of Masjid Al-Jamia, says
> the move  raises serious issues for Muslims in the area - under
> Islamic law, it is illegal  for Muslims to consume alcohol.

And what, they're unable to control those alcohol-consuming impulses?
What about the beer distributor across the street? Or are the impulses
to consume wine and hard liquor harder to control than those to consume
beer? This objection really doesn't hold water as far as I can see.

> Rushdie's concerns go further than  religious convictions, however: He
> said Masjid Al-Jamia is most concerned about  the possible negative
> side effects that a liquor store might have for the  area.
>
> "Most importantly, it's really bad for the neighborhood because  there
> are many families, and [it would be] less than 300 feet from the
> school on 42nd" Street, he said. "We're not disputing the relocation
> of this store because  it's a religious matter only."

Again, the beer distributor is right there, so the fact that alcohol is
available isn't going to change. If it's the down-and-out clientele that
they're worried about, assuming the liquor store that goes in is a
higher-end store as has previously been suggested, the crowd attracted
by the liquor store has just as much chance of being a clientele that is
good for the neighborhood. Granted, if they just transplanted the 41st
and Market store (or worse yet, the 49th and Baltimore store) as is, I
could see the concern.

> Although the Pennsylvania Liquor Control  Board has denied that there
> are present plans to move the store, Spruce Hill  Community
> Association officials and the building's developer have both confirmed
> that a zoning-board meeting
> - in which community members will be allowed to  voice their concerns
>   - will be held Feb. 28 to discuss the move.
>
> "I'm  sure the mosque will be there, make their case [and] be heard,"
> said Barry  Grossbach, chairman of the Spruce Hill Zoning Committee.
> All parties "have the  right to speak, and then the zoning committee
> decides."
>
> If the PLCB were  to move locations, they would need to obtain a
> permit approved by the Zoning  Board of Adjustment.
>
> And the Muslim community hopes that, at the meeting,  its voice will
> be heard.
>
> "If this is the motivation of the establishment  or to further fuel
> the pockets of the government through liquor tax, I'm  unsure," said
> area resident Asalamu Alaikum, a member of Masjid Al-Jamia.  "However,
> we all agree that we don't want to see our community fall victim to
> these types of establishments, as others have done all too  often."

What are "these types of establishments"? Places that sell alcohol?
Welcome to America. Those are all around, and unless they're saying that
the mosque members can resist the temptations of alcohol as long as it's
not right across the street, I don't see how this store would change the
fact that alcohol is an ever-present temptation in our society. Whether
or now their community "falls victim" to wine stores has nothing to do
with the wine stores and everything to do with the community.

> College junior Artina Sheikh, vice president of the Penn Muslim
> Student Association, also spoke out against the possible relocation.
>
> "The  MSA is extremely concerned over this issue and objects to this
> establishment  because of the moral implications of permitting wider
> distribution of alcohol to  society at large," she said.

The decision to permit wide distribution to alcohol to society at large
was taken a long time ago, after something called Prohibition didn't
work. This store has nothing to do with that -- it's merely moving one
of the distribution points. Another argument I find difficult to fathom
coming from an intelligent member of society.

> But Grossbach said he hopes that an amiable  conclusion can eventually
> be reached.
>
> "Everyone i

Re: [UC] More about the liquor store/mosque

[Krfapt]

 
In a message dated 2/23/2007 10:28:35 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

I find  some of these arguments misguided at best and disingenuous  at
worst.



You forgot to put your name on your posting so we would know who you are.  

Always at  your service and ready for a dialog ® brand resident and housing  
provider,
Al Krigman

** AOL now offers free 
email to everyone.  Find out more about what's free from AOL at 
http://www.aol.com.

RE: [UC] More about the liquor store/mosque

[Kyle Cassidy]

I think _everybody_ probably has concerns about the idea of a liquor store 
opening up across from their house. Especially if you've been to the one on 
Market street -- it's archetecturally hideous and is besotted with panhandlers, 
you need to run a spanging gauntlet both on the way in and the way out -- the 
very steriotype of a seedy, urban liquor store. Nobody wants their kids walking 
home from school through a stream of winos. but i do think that it's likely if 
some of our good neighbors are walking from their homes to this place and back 
that the extra foot traffic will be good rather than bad, that you people (and 
our entitled penn kids streaming up and back from 40th) will prevent rather 
than cause crime as will the swarm of bike cops and safety ambassadors who will 
no doubt flit about them.

we hope that the new location, the "community leaders" (whomever they are) 
expressed desire for an "upscale"  wine and spirits shoppe, and good neighbors 
at the restaurant school, the mosque, and the supermarket will be vigilant in 
applying pressure on both the store management and the penn police to enforce 
loitering laws, sweep the parking lot, and be good neighbors themselves. after 
all, if it's merely a transplant of the market street store, i'm still going to 
center city to buy my Veuve Cliquot. The beer distributor, despite its ugly 
exterior, has been very good at discouraging loitering and has been, in my 
experience, a good neighbor. 

I hope that the zoning board and the mosque can come to an agreement that's 
beneficial to everyone, perhaps through some use of parking facilities at 
certain times.

As for concerns that it is too close to the school, we must be sure to let it 
be known during the zoning board meeting that patrons of the liquor store MUST 
be _carded_ in accordance with the law and that k-8 students NOT be served. in 
that, i thnk, we are united.

kc

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] on behalf of Mike
Sent: Fri 2/23/2007 10:27 AM
To: UC List
Subject: Re: [UC] More about the liquor store/mosque
 
I find some of these arguments misguided at best and disingenuous at
worst.

On Fri, 23 Feb 2007 08:10:18 EST, [EMAIL PROTECTED] said:
> For those who think I was making up the opposition being voiced by the
> people at the mosque -- this, now, as a follow-up in today's DP.
>
> A voice of rationality in a world of hyperbole ® Al Krigman
>
> 
>
>
> Potential move brings potential conflict Possible move of liquor store
> to 43rd, Walnut brings protest  from local mosque Madeleine Kronovet
>
> For students living on Beige Block, the potential move of  the liquor
> store closer to the area may be a godsend.
>
> But to Ahmed  Rushdie, the news is nothing less than "insulting."
>
> Officials familiar  with the negotiations say that there are talks to
> move the 41st and Market  streets liquor store to 43rd and Walnut
> streets, a location close in proximity  to a K-8 school and a
> community mosque.
>
> The Masjid Al-Jamia Mosque is  located at 4228 Walnut St., while the
> Penn-Alexander school is at 4209 Spruce  St.
>
> Rushdie, a professor in Penn's Near Eastern Language and
> Civilizations Department and a board member of Masjid Al-Jamia, says
> the move  raises serious issues for Muslims in the area - under
> Islamic law, it is illegal  for Muslims to consume alcohol.

And what, they're unable to control those alcohol-consuming impulses?
What about the beer distributor across the street? Or are the impulses
to consume wine and hard liquor harder to control than those to consume
beer? This objection really doesn't hold water as far as I can see.

> Rushdie's concerns go further than  religious convictions, however: He
> said Masjid Al-Jamia is most concerned about  the possible negative
> side effects that a liquor store might have for the  area.
>
> "Most importantly, it's really bad for the neighborhood because  there
> are many families, and [it would be] less than 300 feet from the
> school on 42nd" Street, he said. "We're not disputing the relocation
> of this store because  it's a religious matter only."

Again, the beer distributor is right there, so the fact that alcohol is
available isn't going to change. If it's the down-and-out clientele that
they're worried about, assuming the liquor store that goes in is a
higher-end store as has previously been suggested, the crowd attracted
by the liquor store has just as much chance of being a clientele that is
good for the neighborhood. Granted, if they just transplanted the 41st
and Market store (or worse yet, the 49th and Baltimore store) as is, I
could see the concern.

> Although the Pennsylvania Liquor Control  Board has denied that there
> are pres

RE: [UC] More about the liquor store/mosque

[Mike]

Completely agree with the concerns about the potential clientele and
appearance of the new store. That is going to depend on what sort of
store it is, and I guess that remains to be seen. And precisely because
of the way PA liquor laws are set up, beer distributors are less
encouraging of public drunkenness than liquor stores -- at least, I have
yet to see someone pick up a case at the beer distributor and crack open
a bottle outside. So insofar as the concerns regarding the mosque and
the school are related to the possibility that the liquor store would
attract an undesirable element that would be unwelcome in close
proximity to a school or a religious establishment, I understand where
they're coming from.

My objection is with the majority of the arguments made against the
store in the article, namely that the liquor store is objectionable
because the mosque community objects to the consumption of alcohol, and
the widespread sale of alcohol in our society, *in general*. I have no
problem whatsoever with a group holding those views, but I have
reservations about allowing those views to determine where and when
otherwise publicly acceptable services are provided. Balancing the
concerns and views of a minority (in the strict sense of <50% of the
population) against the views of the majority is clearly difficult, but
I feel this goes too far. 

Mike S

On Fri, 23 Feb 2007 11:17:26 -0500, "Kyle Cassidy"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said:
> I think _everybody_ probably has concerns about the idea of a liquor
> store opening up across from their house. Especially if you've been to
> the one on Market street -- it's archetecturally hideous and is besotted
> with panhandlers, you need to run a spanging gauntlet both on the way in
> and the way out -- the very steriotype of a seedy, urban liquor store.
> Nobody wants their kids walking home from school through a stream of
> winos. but i do think that it's likely if some of our good neighbors are
> walking from their homes to this place and back that the extra foot
> traffic will be good rather than bad, that you people (and our entitled
> penn kids streaming up and back from 40th) will prevent rather than cause
> crime as will the swarm of bike cops and safety ambassadors who will no
> doubt flit about them.
> 
> we hope that the new location, the "community leaders" (whomever they
> are) expressed desire for an "upscale"  wine and spirits shoppe, and good
> neighbors at the restaurant school, the mosque, and the supermarket will
> be vigilant in applying pressure on both the store management and the
> penn police to enforce loitering laws, sweep the parking lot, and be good
> neighbors themselves. after all, if it's merely a transplant of the
> market street store, i'm still going to center city to buy my Veuve
> Cliquot. The beer distributor, despite its ugly exterior, has been very
> good at discouraging loitering and has been, in my experience, a good
> neighbor. 
> 
> I hope that the zoning board and the mosque can come to an agreement
> that's beneficial to everyone, perhaps through some use of parking
> facilities at certain times.
> 
> As for concerns that it is too close to the school, we must be sure to
> let it be known during the zoning board meeting that patrons of the
> liquor store MUST be _carded_ in accordance with the law and that k-8
> students NOT be served. in that, i thnk, we are united.
> 
> kc
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] on behalf of Mike
> Sent: Fri 2/23/2007 10:27 AM
> To: UC List
> Subject: Re: [UC] More about the liquor store/mosque
>  
> I find some of these arguments misguided at best and disingenuous at
> worst.
> 
> On Fri, 23 Feb 2007 08:10:18 EST, [EMAIL PROTECTED] said:
> > For those who think I was making up the opposition being voiced by the
> > people at the mosque -- this, now, as a follow-up in today's DP.
> >
> > A voice of rationality in a world of hyperbole ® Al Krigman
> >
> > 
> >
> >
> > Potential move brings potential conflict Possible move of liquor store
> > to 43rd, Walnut brings protest  from local mosque Madeleine Kronovet
> >
> > For students living on Beige Block, the potential move of  the liquor
> > store closer to the area may be a godsend.
> >
> > But to Ahmed  Rushdie, the news is nothing less than "insulting."
> >
> > Officials familiar  with the negotiations say that there are talks to
> > move the 41st and Market  streets liquor store to 43rd and Walnut
> > streets, a location close in proximity  to a K-8 school and a
> > community mosque.
> >
> > The Masjid Al-Jamia Mosque is  located at 4228 Walnut St., while

Re: [UC] More about the liquor store/mosque

[Krfapt]

 
In a message dated 2/23/2007 1:29:42 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

Balancing the
concerns and views of a minority (in the strict sense  of <50% of the
population) against the views of the majority is clearly  difficult, but
I feel this goes too far. 



You have some good points.
 
But, I think that when what's becoming an important element in the  diversity 
we supposedly celebrate in this enlightened paragon of a neighborhood  has 
strong convictions on something like alcoholic beverages, and a liquor store  
is 
proposed across from its nerve center, the issue of sensitivity to  
fundamental beliefs comes into the picture.
 
Here's another example. I happen to be neutral on the topic of abortion.  And 
I'm not only not a Catholic by heritage, I'm an athiest by practice. Still,  
if someone bought Liz Campion's house directly across Farragut Street  from St 
Francis de Sales and applied for zoning to open an abortion  clinic (or even 
a planned parenthood center) there, and the church people  objected (you can 
be sure they would!), I'd be strongly on their side.
 
As I noted in my first post on this general topic, I believe that part of  
the diversity we brag about is a responsibility to respect basic  cultural 
mores 
of people who are different than we are in ways that don't  impinge on our 
own deep convictions (think: MOVE). And, I'm sorry, but denying  the zoning for 
a liquor store in the 4200 block of Walnut Street isn't impinging  on the 
rights of anybody to get a Blue Pelican Cliquot Fizz or whatever the  hoity 
toity 
quaff these days at all of our fine BYOB beaneries.  

Always at  your service and ready for a dialog ® brand resident and housing  
provider,
Al Krigman

** AOL now offers free 
email to everyone.  Find out more about what's free from AOL at 
http://www.aol.com.

RE: [UC] More about the liquor store/mosque

[Kyle Cassidy]

> the issue of sensitivity to fundamental beliefs comes into the picture.

what you're asking is that a landlord be barred from renting to a tennant 
because of something that tennant _believes_ -- in this case that alcohol sales 
do not violate the law of god -- i don't think that many landlords would look 
forward to the prospect of having to survey their tennants beliefs before 
renting to them.

I'm sure you all remember the ugly bruhaha just last year when a Texas town 
flipped out because someone wanted to build a mosque within their city limits 
(http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16095716/) because it impinged on their own 
religious beliefs that Muslims were bad and an affront to god. In America 
having a church on one corner doesn't mean that someone can't build a mosque 
(or a liquor store) on the other one simply because someone thinks god doesn't 
like it.

when i was growing up local churches petitioned and eventually convinced the 
town council to pass an ordinance barring people who were not married from 
living together. it made news and eventually got shot down in appeals court, 
but it's the same thing. a landlord shouldn't have to ask tennants if they're 
married, or if they believe alcohol is bad or abortion is murder, or if they 
think it's okay to eat pork. 

as diverse as we are, we live in a secular society where everyone is free to 
make their own peace with the almighty and to join the religious organization 
that reflects their own beliefs. these organizations do what they believe best 
to re-form society within the bounds of their power by convincing their 
paritioners to behave in a particular way -- whether this means making a town 
dry, or homosexual free, or filled with charitable organizations is their 
perogerative, but at the same time, their very existence doesn't preclude other 
free people from doing what they can to make the town wet, or gay friendly or 
filled with commercial enterprises. 

i'm sure the mosque and various other neighbors will have things to say that 
will open our minds to both the pros and cons of a liquor store in that area, 
but i don't believe that an entity, simply because it is "faith based" projects 
a cloud of belief around it that extends for however many feet or blocks whose 
morality is inviolate and determined by that religious organization. in this 
country our boundaries are made by surveyors and zoning boards, not by an aura 
of probitude exuded by some and not by others.

kc

Re: [UC] More about the liquor store/mosque

[Krfapt]

 
In a message dated 2/23/2007 4:06:46 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

we live  in a secular society where everyone is free to make their own peace 
with the  almighty


So, hypothetically but honestly, Kyle:
1) If St Francis de Sales sent around a petition against an abortion  clinic 
in the house they just bought from Liz Campion, would you sign  it?
2) If the former Commodore Theater were a Lubivitscher Synagogue, do you  
think anyone would apply for a zoning permit to open a state store across the  
street (even a state store with a big selection of man-o-Manischevitz  
sacramental-grade Kiddish wine)?
 
Enquiring minds want to know
 
Al Krigman
** AOL now offers free 
email to everyone.  Find out more about what's free from AOL at 
http://www.aol.com.

Re: [UC] More about the liquor store/mosque

[UNIVERSITY*CITOYEN]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
For those who think I was making up the opposition being voiced by the 
people at the mosque -- this, now, as a follow-up in today's DP.
 



Potential move brings potential conflict

  Possible move of liquor store to 43rd, Walnut brings protest from
  local mosque

/Madeleine Kronovet/




does anyone know what is prompting the move of the liquor 
store from its market stree location in the first place? and 
what is being planned for the market street corridor? and 
did this decision to move happen before or after the rite 
aid vacated its location? why did rite aid vacate?


just curious.



..
UNIVERSITY*CITOYEN
[aka laserbeam®]
[aka ray]
SERIAL LIAR. CALL FOR RATES.























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RE: [UC] More about the liquor store/mosque

[Kyle Cassidy]

If St Francis de Sales sent around a petition against a gay tennant in the 
house they just bought from Liz Campion, would _you_ sign it?


but to answer your questions:

1) No
2) Yes

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] on behalf of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Fri 2/23/2007 4:20 PM
To: UnivCity@list.purple.com
Subject: Re: [UC] More about the liquor store/mosque
 
In a message dated 2/23/2007 4:06:46 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL 
PROTECTED] writes:

we live in a secular society where everyone is free to make their own 
peace with the almighty

So, hypothetically but honestly, Kyle:
1) If St Francis de Sales sent around a petition against an abortion clinic in 
the house they just bought from Liz Campion, would you sign it?
2) If the former Commodore Theater were a Lubivitscher Synagogue, do you think 
anyone would apply for a zoning permit to open a state store across the street 
(even a state store with a big selection of man-o-Manischevitz 
sacramental-grade Kiddish wine)?
 
Enquiring minds want to know
 
Al Krigman






AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL 
at AOL.com 
<http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/1615326657x4311227241x4298082137/aol?redir=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Eaol%2Ecom>
 .

Re: [UC] More about the liquor store/mosque

[Ross Bender]

On 2/23/07, Kyle Cassidy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:



i'm sure the mosque and various other neighbors will have things to say
that will open our minds to both the pros and cons of a liquor store in that
area, but i don't believe that an entity, simply because it is "faith based"
projects a cloud of belief around it that extends for however many feet or
blocks whose morality is inviolate and determined by that religious
organization. in this country our boundaries are made by surveyors and
zoning boards, not by an aura of probitude exuded by some and not by others.



There's an aura of hibiscus that permeates  the zone around Cassidy's house
to a 300 foot diameter including the vertical plane straight up. It's what
attracts Cat People and the Purple Aliens that hover in their spacecroft on
Friday nights until late in the morning. It's tangible -- sometimes the fug
is so thick you could cut it with a knife. I doubt, however, that a zoning
hearing would do any good. The Zoning Board would just be overcome by the
fumes and we'd be right back where we started from. Actually the problem
might not be so much Cassidy's *house*, as Cassidy's person, as we learned
to our regret last Friday night.

Speaking of last Friday night I had the grilled chicken breast soaked in
margaritas with shrimp salsa on top, followed by the famous West Philly
chocolate mousse. I was so soused that the old Mennonite Ladies Aid Society
had to cart me home in a buggy.





--
Ross Bender
http://rossbender.org

Re: [UC] More about the liquor store/mosque

[SKnight]

RE: [UC] More about the liquor store/mosqueKyle,

Your refusal to use spell-check drives me to distraction.  However, I usually 
always figure out the errant word or phrase mangled.  But this phrase really 
has me completely baffled.  What the hell is "spanging" in relation to gauntlet?
Sande Knight
  - Original Message - 
  From: Kyle Cassidy<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
  To: Mike<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> ; UC List<mailto:UnivCity@list.purple.com> 
  Sent: Friday, February 23, 2007 11:17 AM
  Subject: RE: [UC] More about the liquor store/mosque


  I think _everybody_ probably has concerns about the idea of a liquor store 
opening up across from their house. Especially if you've been to the one on 
Market street -- it's archetecturally hideous and is besotted with panhandlers, 
you need to run a spanging gauntlet both on the way in and the way out -- the 
very steriotype of a seedy, urban liquor store. Nobody wants their kids walking 
home from school through a stream of winos. but i do think that it's likely if 
some of our good neighbors are walking from their homes to this place and back 
that the extra foot traffic will be good rather than bad, that you people (and 
our entitled penn kids streaming up and back from 40th) will prevent rather 
than cause crime as will the swarm of bike cops and safety ambassadors who will 
no doubt flit about them.

  we hope that the new location, the "community leaders" (whomever they are) 
expressed desire for an "upscale"  wine and spirits shoppe, and good neighbors 
at the restaurant school, the mosque, and the supermarket will be vigilant in 
applying pressure on both the store management and the penn police to enforce 
loitering laws, sweep the parking lot, and be good neighbors themselves. after 
all, if it's merely a transplant of the market street store, i'm still going to 
center city to buy my Veuve Cliquot. The beer distributor, despite its ugly 
exterior, has been very good at discouraging loitering and has been, in my 
experience, a good neighbor.

  I hope that the zoning board and the mosque can come to an agreement that's 
beneficial to everyone, perhaps through some use of parking facilities at 
certain times.

  As for concerns that it is too close to the school, we must be sure to let it 
be known during the zoning board meeting that patrons of the liquor store MUST 
be _carded_ in accordance with the law and that k-8 students NOT be served. in 
that, i thnk, we are united.

  kc

  -Original Message-
  From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] on behalf of Mike
  Sent: Fri 2/23/2007 10:27 AM
  To: UC List
  Subject: Re: [UC] More about the liquor store/mosque

  I find some of these arguments misguided at best and disingenuous at
  worst.

  On Fri, 23 Feb 2007 08:10:18 EST, [EMAIL PROTECTED] said:
  > For those who think I was making up the opposition being voiced by the
  > people at the mosque -- this, now, as a follow-up in today's DP.
  >
  > A voice of rationality in a world of hyperbole ® Al Krigman
  >
  > 
  >
  >
  > Potential move brings potential conflict Possible move of liquor store
  > to 43rd, Walnut brings protest  from local mosque Madeleine Kronovet
  >
  > For students living on Beige Block, the potential move of  the liquor
  > store closer to the area may be a godsend.
  >
  > But to Ahmed  Rushdie, the news is nothing less than "insulting."
  >
  > Officials familiar  with the negotiations say that there are talks to
  > move the 41st and Market  streets liquor store to 43rd and Walnut
  > streets, a location close in proximity  to a K-8 school and a
  > community mosque.
  >
  > The Masjid Al-Jamia Mosque is  located at 4228 Walnut St., while the
  > Penn-Alexander school is at 4209 Spruce  St.
  >
  > Rushdie, a professor in Penn's Near Eastern Language and
  > Civilizations Department and a board member of Masjid Al-Jamia, says
  > the move  raises serious issues for Muslims in the area - under
  > Islamic law, it is illegal  for Muslims to consume alcohol.

  And what, they're unable to control those alcohol-consuming impulses?
  What about the beer distributor across the street? Or are the impulses
  to consume wine and hard liquor harder to control than those to consume
  beer? This objection really doesn't hold water as far as I can see.

  > Rushdie's concerns go further than  religious convictions, however: He
  > said Masjid Al-Jamia is most concerned about  the possible negative
  > side effects that a liquor store might have for the  area.
  >
  > "Most importantly, it's really bad for the neighborhood because  there
  > are many families, and [it would be] less than 300 feet from the
  > school on 42nd" Street, he said. "We're not disputing the relocation
  

Re: [UC] More about the liquor store/mosque

[Wilma de Soto]

Yes. I wondered about ³spanging² as well.


On 2/23/07 5:22 PM, "SKnight" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Kyle,
>  
> Your refusal to use spell-check drives me to distraction.  However, I usually
> always figure out the errant word or phrase mangled.  But this phrase really
> has me completely baffled.  What the hell is "spanging" in relation to
> gauntlet?
> Sande Knight
>>  
>> - Original Message -
>>  
>> From: Kyle  Cassidy <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>  
>> To: Mike <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>  ; UC List
>> <mailto:UnivCity@list.purple.com>
>>  
>> Sent: Friday, February 23, 2007 11:17  AM
>>  
>> Subject: RE: [UC] More about the liquor  store/mosque
>>  
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> I think _everybody_ probably has concerns about the idea of a  liquor store
>> opening up across from their house. Especially if you've been to  the one on
>> Market street -- it's archetecturally hideous and is besotted with
>> panhandlers, you need to run a spanging gauntlet both on the way in and the
>> way out -- the very steriotype of a seedy, urban liquor store. Nobody wants
>> their kids walking home from school through a stream of winos. but i do think
>> that it's likely if some of our good neighbors are walking from their homes
>> to  this place and back that the extra foot traffic will be good rather than
>> bad,  that you people (and our entitled penn kids streaming up and back from
>> 40th)  will prevent rather than cause crime as will the swarm of bike cops
>> and safety  ambassadors who will no doubt flit about them.
>> 
>> we hope that the new  location, the "community leaders" (whomever they are)
>> expressed desire for an  "upscale"  wine and spirits shoppe, and good
>> neighbors at the restaurant  school, the mosque, and the supermarket will be
>> vigilant in applying pressure  on both the store management and the penn
>> police to enforce loitering laws,  sweep the parking lot, and be good
>> neighbors themselves. after all, if it's  merely a transplant of the market
>> street store, i'm still going to center city  to buy my Veuve Cliquot. The
>> beer distributor, despite its ugly exterior, has  been very good at
>> discouraging loitering and has been, in my experience, a  good neighbor.
>> 
>> I hope that the zoning board and the mosque can come to  an agreement that's
>> beneficial to everyone, perhaps through some use of  parking facilities at
>> certain times.
>> 
>> As for concerns that it is too  close to the school, we must be sure to let
>> it be known during the zoning  board meeting that patrons of the liquor store
>> MUST be _carded_ in accordance  with the law and that k-8 students NOT be
>> served. in that, i thnk, we are  united.
>> 
>> kc
>> 
>> -Original Message-
>> From:  [EMAIL PROTECTED] on behalf of Mike
>> Sent: Fri 2/23/2007 10:27  AM
>> To: UC List
>> Subject: Re: [UC] More about the liquor  store/mosque
>> 
>> I find some of these arguments misguided at best and  disingenuous at
>> worst.
>> 
>> On Fri, 23 Feb 2007 08:10:18 EST,  [EMAIL PROTECTED] said:
>>> > For those who think I was making up the  opposition being voiced by the
>>> > people at the mosque -- this, now, as a  follow-up in today's DP.
>>> >
>>> > A voice of rationality in a world of  hyperbole ® Al Krigman
>>> >
>>> >  
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > Potential move brings potential  conflict Possible move of liquor store
>>> > to 43rd, Walnut brings  protest  from local mosque Madeleine Kronovet
>>> >
>>> > For  students living on Beige Block, the potential move of  the liquor
>>> >  store closer to the area may be a godsend.
>>> >
>>> > But to Ahmed   Rushdie, the news is nothing less than "insulting."
>>> >
>>> > Officials  familiar  with the negotiations say that there are talks to
>>> > move  the 41st and Market  streets liquor store to 43rd and Walnut
>>> >  streets, a location close in proximity  to a K-8 school and a
>>> >  community mosque.
>>> >
>>> > The Masjid Al-Jamia Mosque is  located  at 4228 Walnut St., while the
>>> > Penn-Alexander school is at 4209  Spruce  St.
>>> >
>>> > Rushdie, a professor in Penn's Near Eastern  Language and
>>> > Civilizations Department and a board member of Masjid  Al-Jamia, says
>

Re: [UC] More about the liquor store/mosque

[Anthony West]

Equally curious. And I do get a kick out of speculating about things I have 
no real knowledge of. Here are my outside insights, for what they're 
worth --


As of 5:15pm today, the Market St. liquor store had a crude handwritten sign 
on its shuttered door: CLOSED - NO HEAT. We may draw our own conclusions 
about the degree of love the PLCB feels for this location. Teetotaler 
readers should be informed a liquor merchant that can't sell its wares on a 
Friday evening is like a mosque that doesn't know where Mecca lies: It 
cannot perform its core function.


This shabby, nondescript commercial building wasn't built for the ages. If 
the PLCB owns it, I'm sure it'd be happy to be quit of it. But usually the 
PLCB rents. Whoever owns it is not planning to put it in the Historic 
Register. In real estate, the owner's plans come first, as a rule. Anybody 
doing larger-scale "planning" for the Market Street corridor probably sees 
this property's likeliest future is to be demolished and replaced. I doubt 
even the panhandlers out front think it's going to be there forever.


The PLCB has undergone market-oriented management reforms in the past 20 
years, all of which encourage it to behave less like a government agency and 
more like a commercial operation. In other words, it wants its stores to be 
as inviting as possible and adapt to neighborhood tastes to the max. If the 
PLCB thinks there's a growing demand for upscale merchandising in this area, 
then it surely will be exploring this possibility. Without a doubt, Preston 
& Market today is a bad choice to be doubling your Veuve Cliquot shelf space 
at. That'd be a no-brainer for any private marketing manager.


Drugstores are another retail world, one I know less about. This industry 
now boils down to titanic chains, Eckert and CVS and Rite-Aid, engaged in an 
endless three-way duel for market share based on abstruse computer models 
and on the egos of the latest management personnel shifts. Geographical 
calculations and square-footage calculations are essential to their 
machinations. They are like three large dogs circling each other in the park 
snarling, oblivious to the frantic humans tethered at the other end of their 
leashes. All of them move store locations like chess players move chessmen. 
Rite-Aid in particular is a notorious opener-and-closer of store locations. 
All like to have complete control of their buildings if possible; renting is 
a distasteful necessity at best.


The PLCB is minorly approachable by civic groups and public planners, that 
ilk, because it is a government agency. But because it is a government 
agency, it makes its own legal decisions in the end. Translation: tough to 
sue.


The drugstore chains couldn't care less about what some pipsqueak Civic 
Association or Improvement District or University wants. Their PR suits are 
paid handsomely to deny this in public, because it is so obvious. These 
companies just do what they do.


-- Tony West

does anyone know what is prompting the move of the liquor store from its 
market stree location in the first place? and what is being planned for 
the market street corridor? and did this decision to move happen before or 
after the rite aid vacated its location? why did rite aid vacate?


just curious.




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Re: [UC] More about the liquor store/mosque

[Brian Siano]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

For those who think I was making up the opposition being voiced by the 
people at the mosque -- this, now, as a follow-up in today's DP.
 
_A voice of rationality in a world of hyperbole ®_

Al Krigman


Speaking of hyperbole, this very same story was called up on the Little 
Green footballs site-- which is basically a blog for right-wing 
paranoiacs. Over there, they cast it as "Shari'a law coming to Philly,"  
and with selective bolding of the text, they got amazingly worked up 
over the fantasy that this was a bunch of crazy Muslim extremists 
protesting the freedoms of American drinkers.


It'd be funny if it wasn't so fuckin' sad. The comments from the Muslims 
in the article are, as we all see, polite and well-reasoned. And these 
are the sorts of concerns that _hundreds_ of communities raise when a 
liquor store is proposed, Muslim, Christian, or even an uncommittal 
slurry of eschatologie; one doesn't have to be religious to be concerned 
about unruly drunks, local rates of alcoholism, and the proximity of 
such stores to schools. But, the morons over at LGF are psychotically 
driven to see this as a battle over freedoms against ombtruck-driving 
maniacs.


(Personally, I'm not much concerned either way. It'd be nice to have a 
wine store close by, but I can always to into town to get it anyway, or 
just go out to dinner at a place that serves wine. Might be good for the 
local economy, at least, but it won't benefit _me_ in any direct way. If 
the community-- that includes the mosque, obviously-- decides against 
it, I'm OK with that as much as I'd be if we approved it.)


 

 



Potential move brings potential conflict


  Possible move of liquor store to 43rd, Walnut brings protest
  from local mosque


/Madeleine Kronovet/




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Re: [UC] More about the liquor store/mosque

[Brian Siano]

Mike wrote:


My objection is with the majority of the arguments made against the
store in the article, namely that the liquor store is objectionable
because the mosque community objects to the consumption of alcohol, and
the widespread sale of alcohol in our society, *in general*. I have no
problem whatsoever with a group holding those views, but I have
reservations about allowing those views to determine where and when
otherwise publicly acceptable services are provided. Balancing the
concerns and views of a minority (in the strict sense of <50% of the
population) against the views of the majority is clearly difficult, but
I feel this goes too far. 

You say that their other concerns are somewhat legitimate, but their 
position against alcohol in general should not be considered at all. Why 
is this particular concern suddenly illegitimate?


Citing the failure of Prohibition doesn't work: we continue to prohibit 
things like heroin and PCP, and we restrict access and use of 
cigarettes. (Also, the repeal of Prohibition doesn't mean that liquor 
distribution should be completely unrestricted, nor does it mean that a 
community _can't_ object to a liquor store.) Claiming that a majority 
opposes it doesn't work, either: determining that majority requires 
giving consideration to the position to begin with, which you claim 
shouldn't be done in the first place. (In other words: if you're citing 
majority rule, you gotta have a vote to see what the majority wants... 
and the majority is entitled to change its collective mind.)


In other words, you say that concerns about the community, schools, and 
other things are legitimate, but simply saying that "people shouldn't 
drink" is illegitimate," and you haven't given any good explaination as 
to why _this_ desire is any less legitimate. It may be less _likely_, 
but  that doesn't mean that people shouldn't act upon this desire.





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Re: [UC] More about the liquor store/mosque

[Wilma de Soto]

Actually, I should think the SHCA head would be a member of the UC Listserv
and would post any Zoning Negotiations that would have to do with the UC
Community, so we should not have to speculate and/or argue about it.

I realize they may be very busy, but those posts are pertinent and we should
not have to hear of such neighborhood doings from Al Krigman. (Sorry, Al)

I would rather hear from the leader of SHCA.

I am glad Maureen Tate and Karen Allen of CPN, post announcements and
notices of meetings etc for their community association so we may
participate.


On 2/23/07 6:30 PM, "Brian Siano" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> 
>> For those who think I was making up the opposition being voiced by the
>> people at the mosque -- this, now, as a follow-up in today's DP.
>>  
>> _A voice of rationality in a world of hyperbole ®_
>> Al Krigman
> 
> Speaking of hyperbole, this very same story was called up on the Little
> Green footballs site-- which is basically a blog for right-wing
> paranoiacs. Over there, they cast it as "Shari'a law coming to Philly,"
> and with selective bolding of the text, they got amazingly worked up
> over the fantasy that this was a bunch of crazy Muslim extremists
> protesting the freedoms of American drinkers.
> 
> It'd be funny if it wasn't so fuckin' sad. The comments from the Muslims
> in the article are, as we all see, polite and well-reasoned. And these
> are the sorts of concerns that _hundreds_ of communities raise when a
> liquor store is proposed, Muslim, Christian, or even an uncommittal
> slurry of eschatologie; one doesn't have to be religious to be concerned
> about unruly drunks, local rates of alcoholism, and the proximity of
> such stores to schools. But, the morons over at LGF are psychotically
> driven to see this as a battle over freedoms against ombtruck-driving
> maniacs.
> 
> (Personally, I'm not much concerned either way. It'd be nice to have a
> wine store close by, but I can always to into town to get it anyway, or
> just go out to dinner at a place that serves wine. Might be good for the
> local economy, at least, but it won't benefit _me_ in any direct way. If
> the community-- that includes the mosque, obviously-- decides against
> it, I'm OK with that as much as I'd be if we approved it.)
> 
>>  
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> 
>> Potential move brings potential conflict
>> 
>> 
>>   Possible move of liquor store to 43rd, Walnut brings protest
>>   from local mosque
>> 
>> 
>> /Madeleine Kronovet/
>> 
> 
> 
> You are receiving this because you are subscribed to the
> list named "UnivCity." To unsubscribe or for archive information, see
> .




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Re: [UC] More about the liquor store/mosque

[Frank]

Which, I suppose, is why CVS closed their store at 39th and Walnut  
and moved to Penn's mini-mall food court at 34th St. Eastward Ho!


Frank

On Feb 23, 2007, at 06:12 PM, Anthony West wrote:

The drugstore chains couldn't care less about what some pipsqueak  
Civic Association or Improvement District or University wants.  
Their PR suits are paid handsomely to deny this in public, because  
it is so obvious. These companies just do what they do.



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Re: [UC] More about the liquor store/mosque

[SKnight]

Re: [UC] More about the liquor store/mosqueOh well...Wilma.  Perhaps we have 
been doing other things while this sprang into action.  You were probably 
enjoying connubial bliss; I shudder to think what I might have been doing.  
Pulling yet more covers over my head?
sk
  - Original Message - 
  From: Wilma de Soto<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
  To: SKnight<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> ; Kyle Cassidy<mailto:[EMAIL 
PROTECTED]> ; UnivCity listserv<mailto:UnivCity@list.purple.com> 
  Sent: Friday, February 23, 2007 6:13 PM
  Subject: Re: [UC] More about the liquor store/mosque


  Yes. I wondered about "spanging" as well.


  On 2/23/07 5:22 PM, "SKnight" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>> 
wrote:


Kyle,
 
Your refusal to use spell-check drives me to distraction.  However, I 
usually always figure out the errant word or phrase mangled.  But this phrase 
really has me completely baffled.  What the hell is "spanging" in relation to 
gauntlet?
Sande Knight


  - Original Message - 
   
  From: Kyle  Cassidy <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]><mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>  
   
  To: Mike <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]><mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>  ; UC List 
<mailto:UnivCity@list.purple.com><mailto:UnivCity@list.purple.com>  
   
  Sent: Friday, February 23, 2007 11:17  AM
   
  Subject: RE: [UC] More about the liquor  store/mosque
   

   

  I think _everybody_ probably has concerns about the idea of a  liquor 
store opening up across from their house. Especially if you've been to  the one 
on Market street -- it's archetecturally hideous and is besotted with  
panhandlers, you need to run a spanging gauntlet both on the way in and the  
way out -- the very steriotype of a seedy, urban liquor store. Nobody wants  
their kids walking home from school through a stream of winos. but i do think  
that it's likely if some of our good neighbors are walking from their homes to  
this place and back that the extra foot traffic will be good rather than bad,  
that you people (and our entitled penn kids streaming up and back from 40th)  
will prevent rather than cause crime as will the swarm of bike cops and safety  
ambassadors who will no doubt flit about them.

  we hope that the new  location, the "community leaders" (whomever they 
are) expressed desire for an  "upscale"  wine and spirits shoppe, and good 
neighbors at the restaurant  school, the mosque, and the supermarket will be 
vigilant in applying pressure  on both the store management and the penn police 
to enforce loitering laws,  sweep the parking lot, and be good neighbors 
themselves. after all, if it's  merely a transplant of the market street store, 
i'm still going to center city  to buy my Veuve Cliquot. The beer distributor, 
despite its ugly exterior, has  been very good at discouraging loitering and 
has been, in my experience, a  good neighbor.

  I hope that the zoning board and the mosque can come to  an agreement 
that's beneficial to everyone, perhaps through some use of  parking facilities 
at certain times.

  As for concerns that it is too  close to the school, we must be sure to 
let it be known during the zoning  board meeting that patrons of the liquor 
store MUST be _carded_ in accordance  with the law and that k-8 students NOT be 
served. in that, i thnk, we are  united.

  kc

  -----Original Message-----
      From:  [EMAIL PROTECTED] on behalf of Mike
  Sent: Fri 2/23/2007 10:27  AM
  To: UC List
  Subject: Re: [UC] More about the liquor  store/mosque

  I find some of these arguments misguided at best and  disingenuous at
  worst.

  On Fri, 23 Feb 2007 08:10:18 EST,  [EMAIL PROTECTED] said:
  > For those who think I was making up the  opposition being voiced by the
  > people at the mosque -- this, now, as a  follow-up in today's DP.
  >
  > A voice of rationality in a world of  hyperbole ® Al Krigman
  >
  >  
  >
  >
  > Potential move brings potential  conflict Possible move of liquor store
  > to 43rd, Walnut brings  protest  from local mosque Madeleine Kronovet
  >
  > For  students living on Beige Block, the potential move of  the liquor
  >  store closer to the area may be a godsend.
  >
  > But to Ahmed   Rushdie, the news is nothing less than "insulting."
  >
  > Officials  familiar  with the negotiations say that there are talks to
  > move  the 41st and Market  streets liquor store to 43rd and Walnut
  >  streets, a location close in proximity  to a K-8 school and a
  >  community mosque.
  >
  > The Masjid Al-Jamia Mosque is  located  at 4228 Walnut St., while the
 

Re: [UC] More about the liquor store/mosque

[Anthony West]

Yeah, that's a good example. CVS was romanced into opening that much larger 
store at 43rd & Locust not too long ago. From the moment that new store 
opened, the older smaller store just five blocks away was doomed. The Food 
Court site enabled the company to spread the pins around the map more 
efficiently.


-- Tony West


Which, I suppose, is why CVS closed their store at 39th and Walnut  and 
moved to Penn's mini-mall food court at 34th St. Eastward Ho!


Frank

On Feb 23, 2007, at 06:12 PM, Anthony West wrote:

The drugstore chains couldn't care less about what some pipsqueak  Civic 
Association or Improvement District or University wants.  Their PR suits 
are paid handsomely to deny this in public, because  it is so obvious. 
These companies just do what they do.




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Re: [UC] More about the liquor store/mosque

[Frank]

OK. I still don't get how this is an example of how CVS *doesn't*  
listen to Penn??


FRank

On Feb 24, 2007, at 12:07 AM, Anthony West wrote:

Yeah, that's a good example. CVS was romanced into opening that  
much larger store at 43rd & Locust not too long ago. From the  
moment that new store opened, the older smaller store just five  
blocks away was doomed. The Food Court site enabled the company to  
spread the pins around the map more efficiently.


-- Tony West


Which, I suppose, is why CVS closed their store at 39th and  
Walnut  and moved to Penn's mini-mall food court at 34th St.  
Eastward Ho!


Frank

On Feb 23, 2007, at 06:12 PM, Anthony West wrote:

The drugstore chains couldn't care less about what some  
pipsqueak  Civic Association or Improvement District or  
University wants.  Their PR suits are paid handsomely to deny  
this in public, because  it is so obvious. These companies just  
do what they do.




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Re: [UC] More about the liquor store/mosque

[Anthony West]

It looks more like a case of CVS using Penn, etc. to expand its geographical 
saturation of West Philadelphia. From one store they moved to two. From CVS' 
viewpoint, the opening of a new store and the moving of an older store are 
two necessary parts of the same problem.


The old Acme building was an eyesore on the neighborhood that people tried 
in vain for years to redevelop. Step One was to get the owner to move the 
property. People with long memories will recall how hard that was! Step Two 
was to solicit a new occupant for it. Without a doubt, since selling 
involves talking, CVS "listened to" somebody's presentation at some point.


But CVS's ultimate decision was based on bottom-line, profit-driven, 
market-oriented considerations that were entirely decided in Providence, 
R.I. And not by Brown University either, I might add.


-- Tony West

OK. I still don't get how this is an example of how CVS *doesn't*  listen 
to Penn??


FRank




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Re: [UC] More about the liquor store/mosque

[Krfapt]

 
In a message dated 2/23/2007 7:31:27 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

Actually, I should think the SHCA head would be a member of the UC  Listserv
and would post any Zoning Negotiations that would have to do with  the UC
Community, so we should not have to speculate and/or argue about  it.


Several prominent SHCA movers and shakers used to be active on this list.  
Those were the days when they could claim to represent the whole community and  
people actually believed it, so they didn't get much questioning of their 
Papal  Bulls. As discussions started to get going, many heated and not all 
obsequious,  one by one they dropped off.
 
Shame on them!  

Always at  your service and ready for a dialog ® brand resident and housing  
provider,
Al Krigman

** AOL now offers free 
email to everyone.  Find out more about what's free from AOL at 
http://www.aol.com.

Re: [UC] More about the liquor store/mosque

[Krfapt]

 
In a message dated 2/23/2007 6:56:20 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

You say  that their other concerns are somewhat legitimate, but their 
position  against alcohol in general should not be considered at all. Why 
is this  particular concern suddenly illegitimate?



As usual, we're drifting off what I think is the real issue. Not the sale  of 
liquor across from a mosque, per se. Not, as was the case with the Firehouse, 
 a tavern-like operation across from a tee-totaling Baptist Church. Not 
simply  the question of an abortion clinic or a house owned by a gay couple 
across 
the  street from St Francis (which are rather different situations in that one 
is a  public accommodation and the other a matter of people's private lives).
 
IMHO, the real issue has to do with sensitivity to the cultural mores of  
people in the community, given that we bust our collective buttons with pride  
about how diverse we are. And a second factor that seems to be important is the 
 
question of whether some alternate location might be somewhat better, just as 
 good, or almost as good where issues of this type wouldn't arise. Everyone  
agrees that the present state store location at 41st & Market leaves much to  
be desired in many dimensions. But, surely there are places that can be  
developed for a Wine & Spirits Shoppe more suitable than the 4200 block of  
Walnut 
-- which would not only be less contentious but would have a positive  
influence on the evolution of the immediate vicinity and still convenient for  
the 
target clientele. How about the old Linton's (or was it Horn & Hardart?)  
building near 40th & Chestnut -- I understand that when a certain initiative  
goes 
kablooie, the outfit that's now using the space will fold up and the space  
will become available. There's a parking lot in the back and a police 
substation  
adjacent -- both of which are strong points.  

Always at  your service and ready for a dialog ® brand resident and housing  
provider,
Al Krigman

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Re: [UC] More about the liquor store/mosque

[Frank]

Or RISD for that matter. BTW, the CVS in Kennedy Plaza in PVD is one  
of the worst I've ever been to.


Frank

On Feb 24, 2007, at 08:25 AM, Anthony West wrote:

It looks more like a case of CVS using Penn, etc. to expand its  
geographical saturation of West Philadelphia. From one store they  
moved to two. From CVS' viewpoint, the opening of a new store and  
the moving of an older store are two necessary parts of the same  
problem.


The old Acme building was an eyesore on the neighborhood that  
people tried in vain for years to redevelop. Step One was to get  
the owner to move the property. People with long memories will  
recall how hard that was! Step Two was to solicit a new occupant  
for it. Without a doubt, since selling involves talking, CVS  
"listened to" somebody's presentation at some point.


But CVS's ultimate decision was based on bottom-line, profit- 
driven, market-oriented considerations that were entirely decided  
in Providence, R.I. And not by Brown University either, I might add.


-- Tony West

OK. I still don't get how this is an example of how CVS *doesn't*   
listen to Penn??


FRank




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Re: [UC] More about the liquor store/mosque

[UNIVERSITY*CITOYEN]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


How about the old Linton's (or was it Horn & Hardart?) 
building near 40th & Chestnut --



it was a horn and hardart (plus the adjacent space) -- I 
think you can even make out the words horn and hardart from 
the old holes in the dark strip above the entranceway...


from Almanac, Vol. 45, No. 9, October 27, 1998
http://www.upenn.edu/almanac/v45/n09/ucd.html


The University City District (UCD), created last year to
"promote positive change" in the area, will soon have a
centralized location for its work with over 100
institutions, businesses and community representatives:
in a onetime Horn & Hardart at 3940-42 Chestnut Street,
where ground was broken on October 21. Paul Steege and
Associates are architects for the combined renovation and
new construction of the 10,000 square-foot facility
scheduled for completion in May 1999. UCD Executive
Director said it will provide locker room and roll call
space for UCD's 40 Safety Ambassadors as well as for 25
officers from the Philadelphia Police Department, and a
lieutenant and two sergeants. The properties are being
donated to the UCD by Penn, with financing provided by
Penn for the $1.7 million project. The challenge now,
said Penn EVP John Fry, is to raise funds from
corporations, foundations and others "to improve public
safety and quality of life in University City."


- - - - -

from the dp, 6/17/99
http://tinyurl.com/35cxso


UCD celebrates opening of new headquarters


The center, located at 3940-42 Chestnut Street, is a
combination of a one-story renovated building -- formerly
occupied by a Horn & Hardart restaurant -- and a new,
single-story addition. The building covers a total of 10,000
square feet.

The building cost $1.3 million to construct, while another
$400,000 was put towards furnishing and supplying the
center. The construction was funded through a no-interest
loan by the University. The UCD will pay the building's
operational costs and will repay the University through
corporate and foundation funding.

The UCD is currently fundraising for the money to repay
that loan, and many contributors -- including Aramark, Bell
Atlantic Corporations, Mellon Bank and the William Penn
Foundation -- have already contributed funds. Rendell said
Tuesday that the city of Philadelphia will also help cover
the costs of construction. 


In addition, all of the members of the project team,
including the architects, engineers and construction
managers, discounted or donated services to the planning and
construction of the new building, Steinke said. The center's
groundbreaking took place last October and the UCD's offices
moved into the facility earlier this month.

The University owns the former restaurant's building and
will rent it to the UCD for $1 each year.


- - - - - - - -

from ucd's newsletter, the quest | fall 2003
http://www.ucityphila.org/_files/pdfs/Quest_fall_03.pdf



Thanks to Pennsylvania State Senator Anthony Williams and the
Pennsylvania Department of Community & Economic Development
(DCED), University City District (UCD) recently received another $25,000
installment of a $150,000 grant towards paying for UCD’s Operations
Center at 3940 Chestnut Street. This grant, arranged by Campus Apartments
President and UCD Board Vice-Chair David Adelman, helps to pay for the
cost of renovating and operating the building which serves as a hub of
University City’s cleaning, safety, and
marketing services.
Since 1999 the Operations Center, a former
Horn & Hardart automat built in 1939,
functions as the administrative offices of
UCD, as well as being a hub for the public
safety program, which includes the
Ambassador headquarters, a Philadelphia
Police substation (provided to the city at no
cost), and the center for coordinating
deployment strategy and crime tracking. The
close coordination between the 34 UCD
Ambassadors (known by their bright yellow
jackets) and the 25 Philadelphia Police
officers has contributed to the significant
decreases in Part I crimes (such as homicide,
rape, aggravated assault, and robbery) since
the substation’s formation. Most recently, these crimes declined 19% from
2001 to 2002.
Since the inception of the UCD in, literally, a University of Pennsylvania
office broom closet in 1997, the organization has become an integral part of
the thriving University City community by improving streetscapes and
parks, removing trash and graffiti, providing technical assistance to home
and business owners, managing the LUCY® bus service, increasing public
safety, and publicizing the myriad assets of the area.
However, unlike most Business Improvement Districts (BIDs), the UCD is
not funded by a mandatory tax assessment. Rather, it is funded solely by
voluntary contributions from area institutions, businesses, and individuals.
Thus, the UCD continues to enhance the vibrant community it serves
through the generosity of others. Thanks to all those who have made the
UCD’s work possible and given the organization a "home"

Re: [UC] More about the liquor store/mosque

[daveaxler]

 No, it was a Linton's, complete with conveyor belt...

 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Cc: UnivCity@list.purple.com
 Sent: Sat, 24 Feb 2007 11:58 AM
 Subject: Re: [UC] More about the liquor store/mosque
 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 
 > > How about the old Linton's (or was it Horn & Hardart?) > building near 
 > > 40th & Chestnut -- 
 
 it was a horn and hardart (plus the adjacent space) -- I think you can even 
make out the words horn and hardart from the old holes in the dark strip above 
the entranceway... 
 
 from Almanac, Vol. 45, No. 9, October 27, 1998 
 http://www.upenn.edu/almanac/v45/n09/ucd.html 
 
 > The University City District (UCD), created last year to 
 > "promote positive change" in the area, will soon have a 
 > centralized location for its work with over 100 
 > institutions, businesses and community representatives: 
 > in a onetime Horn & Hardart at 3940-42 Chestnut Street, 
 > where ground was broken on October 21. Paul Steege and 
 > Associates are architects for the combined renovation and 
 > new construction of the 10,000 square-foot facility 
 > scheduled for completion in May 1999. UCD Executive 
 > Director said it will provide locker room and roll call 
 > space for UCD's 40 Safety Ambassadors as well as for 25 
 > officers from the Philadelphia Police Department, and a 
 > lieutenant and two sergeants. The properties are being 
 > donated to the UCD by Penn, with financing provided by 
 > Penn for the $1.7 million project. The challenge now, 
 > said Penn EVP John Fry, is to raise funds from 
 > corporations, foundations and others "to improve public 
 > safety and quality of life in University City." 
 
 - - - - - 
 
 from the dp, 6/17/99 
 http://tinyurl.com/35cxso 
 
 > UCD celebrates opening of new headquarters 
 > >> The center, located at 3940-42 Chestnut Street, is a 
 >> combination of a one-story renovated building -- formerly 
 >> occupied by a Horn & Hardart restaurant -- and a new, 
 >> single-story addition. The building covers a total of 10,000 
 >> square feet. 
 >> >> The building cost $1.3 million to construct, while another 
 >> $400,000 was put towards furnishing and supplying the 
 >> center. The construction was funded through a no-interest 
 >> loan by the University. The UCD will pay the building's 
 >> operational costs and will repay the University through 
 >> corporate and foundation funding. 
 >> >> The UCD is currently fundraising for the money to repay 
 >> that loan, and many contributors -- including Aramark, Bell 
 >> Atlantic Corporations, Mellon Bank and the William Penn 
 >> Foundation -- have already contributed funds. Rendell said 
 >> Tuesday that the city of Philadelphia will also help cover 
 >> the costs of construction. >> >> In addition, all of the members of the 
 >> project team, 
 >> including the architects, engineers and construction 
 >> managers, discounted or donated services to the planning and 
 >> construction of the new building, Steinke said. The center's 
 >> groundbreaking took place last October and the UCD's offices 
 >> moved into the facility earlier this month. 
 >> >> The University owns the former restaurant's building and 
 >> will rent it to the UCD for $1 each year. 
 
 - - - - - - - - 
 
 from ucd's newsletter, the quest | fall 2003 
 http://www.ucityphila.org/_files/pdfs/Quest_fall_03.pdf 
 
 > Thanks to Pennsylvania State Senator Anthony Williams and the 
 > Pennsylvania Department of Community & Economic Development 
 > (DCED), University City District (UCD) recently received another $25,000 
 > installment of a $150,000 grant towards paying for UCD’s Operations 
 > Center at 3940 Chestnut Street. This grant, arranged by Campus Apartments 
 > President and UCD Board Vice-Chair David Adelman, helps to pay for the 
 > cost of renovating and operating the building which serves as a hub of 
 > University City’s cleaning, safety, and 
 > marketing services. 
 > Since 1999 the Operations Center, a former 
 > Horn & Hardart automat built in 1939, 
 > functions as the administrative offices of 
 > UCD, as well as being a hub for the public 
 > safety program, which includes the 
 > Ambassador headquarters, a Philadelphia 
 > Police substation (provided to the city at no 
 > cost), and the center for coordinating 
 > deployment strategy and crime tracking. The 
 > close coordination between the 34 UCD 
 > Ambassadors (known by their bright yellow 
 > jackets) and the 25 Philadelphia Police 
 > officers has contributed to the significant 
 > decreases in Pa

RE: [UC] More about the liquor store/mosque

[Kyle Cassidy]

While I applaud your social conscious (and I had previously thought 
libertarians heartless) and it may very well be that the location is not ideal, 
that it would do better and be more profitable elsewhere, and I'm not 
personally in love with that location, isn't this still a private transaction 
between a landlord and a tenant? who are we to say "your store will make more 
money somewhere else, so we're going to oppose your leasing this space" and, 
even more importantly, why should the current property owner be forced to 
suffer financially by not being allowed to rent to a tenant s/he's (presumably) 
wooed and perhaps spent considerable time and money on? should they be forced 
to eat the cost of six or eight month's non-paid rent while they search out a 
new occupant for the building? 
 
and, if this is not the case and neighbors _do_ have the right to have our 
fingers in the rental pies of property owners, how can I turn this into making 
the @[EMAIL PROTECTED] people next door replace the porch railing they made out 
of 2x4's with something more aesthetic and get rid of that vinyl siding? which 
has long been my main goal.



From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] on behalf of [EMAIL PROTECTED]

 
 But, surely there are places that can be developed for a Wine & Spirits Shoppe 
more suitable than the 4200 block of Walnut -- which would not only be less 
contentious but would have a positive influence on the evolution of the 
immediate vicinity and still convenient for the target clientele.

Re: [UC] More about the liquor store/mosque

[Krfapt]

 
In a message dated 2/24/2007 1:13:59 PM Eastern Standard Time,  
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

who are we to say "your  store will make more money somewhere else, so we're 
going to oppose your  leasing this space" and, even more importantly, why 
should the current  property owner be forced to suffer financially by not being 
allowed to rent to  a tenant s/he's (presumably) wooed and perhaps spent 
considerable time and  money on? should they be forced to eat the cost of six 
or 
eight month's  non-paid rent while they search out a new occupant for the 
building?  

and, if this is not the case and neighbors _do_ have the  right to have our 
fingers in the rental pies of property owners, how can I  turn this into making 
the @[EMAIL PROTECTED] people next door replace the  porch railing they made 
out of 2x4's 
with something more aesthetic and get rid  of that vinyl siding? which has 
long been my main  goal.



As usual, you miss the point. I can only surmise that you do it  deliberately 
to get a discussion off track and spare the solid citizens of  University 
City the bother of waking up their "little grey cells" to grapple  with real 
issues.
 
The point being that when there's a need for a zoning change, it becomes a  
matter of public involvement. So the owner can rent to whoever he or she wants  
that doesn't require action by the Zoning Board without any of this. 
Likewise,  for permits to make certain changes to their buildings. Further, any 
owner 
of  commercial property who courts a potential tenant that will require a 
zoning  change should know the hassles that will be involved and the very real  
possibility that it will be opposed and rejected. Dan DeRitis, who the DP 
called 
 the "developer" of the property in question (officially, it's owned by the 
42nd  & Walnut Street Corp which may or may not be Danny) is not exactly a babe 
in  the woods on thses sorts of issues so none of this will be a surprise to 
him.  

Always at  your service & ready for a dialog ® brand 35-year resident & 
housing  provider
Al Krigman

** AOL now offers free 
email to everyone.  Find out more about what's free from AOL at 
http://www.aol.com.

RE: [UC] More about the liquor store/mosque

[Kyle Cassidy]

>The point being that when there's a need for a zoning change, it becomes a 
>matter of public involvement. 
>So the owner can rent to whoever he or she wants that doesn't require action 
>by the Zoning Board without 
>any of this. 

i stand corrected. i hadn't realized (though i suppose i should have) that they 
were actually applying to have 
the zoning changed. which, obviously, does make it a matter of public 
involvment. Any establishment that
serves alcohol brings with it some potential baggage. My bad.

not to big to say i'm wrong,

kc

Re: [UC] More about the liquor store/mosque

[MLamond]

In a message dated 2/26/07 9:07:22 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
> >The point being that when there's a need for a zoning change, it becomes a 
> matter of public involvement.
> >So the owner can rent to whoever he or she wants that doesn't require 
> action by the Zoning Board without
> >any of this.
> 
> i stand corrected. i hadn't realized (though i suppose i should have) that 
> they were actually applying to have
> the zoning changed. which, obviously, does make it a matter of public 
> involvment. Any establishment that
> serves alcohol brings with it some potential baggage. My bad.
> 
> not to big to say i'm wrong,
> 
> Kyle, I don't know the exact, specific change that the PLCB and landlord are 
applying for on Walnut St., but the outdated zoning code in Philadelphia means 
that one must apply for a change most of the time, even for another use 
permitted under the current zoning.   For example, the Firehouse building is 
zoned 
C-2 commercial which allows restaurants and many other things.   But, Dock St. 
had to go before the ZBA because they wanted to sell TAKE-OUT pizza & beer.   
It was for the take-out approval that they had to go.   (I'll bet there are a 
lot of businesses in UC doing take-out without the proper use permit.)   
Most businesses have to go before the zoning board.   It is commonplace, not a 
big, special case.

This is why we need to revise and simplify the zoning code.

Melani Lamond





Melani Lamond, Associate Broker
Urban & Bye, Realtor
3529 Lancaster Ave.
Philadelphia, PA 19104
cell phone 215-356-7266
office phone 215-222-4800, ext. 113
office fax 215-222-1101


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Re: [UC] More about the liquor store/mosque

[Krfapt]

 
In a message dated 2/26/2007 9:43:30 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

Kyle, I don't know the  exact, specific change that the PLCB and landlord are 
applying for on Walnut  St., but the outdated zoning code in Philadelphia 
means that one must apply  for a change most of the time, even for another use 
permitted under the  current zoning.  For example, the Firehouse building is 
zoned C-2  commercial which allows restaurants and many other things.  But, 
Dock 
St.  had to go before the ZBA because they wanted to sell TAKE-OUT pizza &  
beer.  It was for the take-out approval that they had to go.  (I'll  bet there 
are a lot of businesses in UC doing take-out without the proper use  
permit.)  Most businesses have to go before the zoning board.   It is 
commonplace, 
not a big, special case.

This is why we need to  revise and simplify the zoning code.



More misdirection, Melani. Whatever the reasons, the Code is the Code  until 
or unless it's changed. And the code requires ZBA approval and makes it a  
matter of public involvement.
 
If you think the Zoning Code should be changed, that's another topic. It  
certainly needs simplification and reduction of number of subcategories. Would  
you care to start a thread on those aspects of it you think should be changed?  
If so, please do.  If you think that the Brewpub and the state store issues  
are examples of abuse that should be corrected in a new code, use them as  
examples and explain why they highlight the abuses you believe need  correcting.
 
But don't try to confuse the issues at hand, to which possible future  
changes don't apply.
 
Always at  your service and ready for a dialog ® brand resident and housing  
provider,
Al Krigman
** AOL now offers free 
email to everyone.  Find out more about what's free from AOL at 
http://www.aol.com.

RE: [UC] More about the liquor store/mosque

[Edward Brady]

"I don't know the exact, specific change that the PLCB and landlord are
applying for on Walnut St."

 

The former Rite Aid property at 4237 Walnut St. is zoned for Residential
(R5).  

 

Eddie Brady

 

  _  

From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, February 26, 2007 9:41 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; UnivCity@list.purple.com
Subject: Re: [UC] More about the liquor store/mosque

 


In a message dated 2/26/07 9:07:22 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:



>The point being that when there's a need for a zoning change, it becomes a
matter of public involvement.
>So the owner can rent to whoever he or she wants that doesn't require
action by the Zoning Board without
>any of this.

i stand corrected. i hadn't realized (though i suppose i should have) that
they were actually applying to have
the zoning changed. which, obviously, does make it a matter of public
involvment. Any establishment that
serves alcohol brings with it some potential baggage. My bad.

not to big to say i'm wrong,

Kyle, I don't know the exact, specific change that the PLCB and landlord are
applying for on Walnut St., but the outdated zoning code in Philadelphia
means that one must apply for a change most of the time, even for another
use permitted under the current zoning.  For example, the Firehouse building
is zoned C-2 commercial which allows restaurants and many other things.
But, Dock St. had to go before the ZBA because they wanted to sell TAKE-OUT
pizza & beer.  It was for the take-out approval that they had to go.  (I'll
bet there are a lot of businesses in UC doing take-out without the proper
use permit.)  Most businesses have to go before the zoning board.  It is
commonplace, not a big, special case.

This is why we need to revise and simplify the zoning code.

Melani Lamond





Melani Lamond, Associate Broker
Urban & Bye, Realtor
3529 Lancaster Ave.
Philadelphia, PA 19104
cell phone 215-356-7266
office phone 215-222-4800, ext. 113
office fax 215-222-1101




**
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AOL at http://www.aol.com. 

Re: [UC] More about the liquor store/mosque

[KAREN ALLEN]

From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED], UnivCity@list.purple.com
Subject: Re: [UC] More about the liquor store/mosque
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 09:41:08 EST


In a message dated 2/26/07 9:07:22 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
> ...i stand corrected. i hadn't realized (though i suppose i should have) 
that

> they were actually applying to have
> the zoning changed. which, obviously, does make it a matter of public
> involvment. Any establishment that serves alcohol brings with it some

potential baggage. My bad.

>
> Kyle, I don't know the exact, specific change that the PLCB and landlord 
are
applying for on Walnut St., but the outdated zoning code in Philadelphia 
means

that one must apply for a change most of the time, even for another use
permitted under the current zoning.   For example, the Firehouse building 
is zoned
C-2 commercial which allows restaurants and many other things.   But, Dock 
St.

had to go before the ZBA because they wanted to sell TAKE-OUT pizza & beer.
It was for the take-out approval that they had to go.   (I'll bet there are 
a

lot of businesses in UC doing take-out without the proper use permit.)
Most businesses have to go before the zoning board.   It is commonplace, 
not a

big, special case.

This is why we need to revise and simplify the zoning code.

Melani Lamond


That depends on whether it is a business or a property owner on the one 
hand, or whether it is a neighbor of the site in question on the other. 
Simplifying the zoning code to make it easier for businesses would in many 
cases take away the ability of residents to have a voice in the quality of 
life in the area.


Requiring the business to go through zoning gives neighbors the opportunity 
to object if what is being proposed is something that would be detrimental 
to the area.  Like in the case of the African restaurant proposed at 46th 
and Baltimore: because they had to get a permit to have takeout, the 
immediate neighbors were able to object to something that created concerns 
for them.


Karen Allen



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Re: [UC] More about the liquor store/mosque

[UNIVERSITY*CITOYEN]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

No, it was a Linton's, complete with conveyor belt...



hmm... must've been a horn and hardart's at some point. you 
can still see traces of the H, the O, the R, the N, etc. 
along the black stonework above the entranceway.




..
UNIVERSITY*CITOYEN
[aka laserbeam®]
[aka ray]
SERIAL LIAR. CALL FOR RATES.









































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Re: [UC] More about the liquor store/mosque

[daveaxler]

 Then I must have been thinking of the Linton's over at 33rd & Chestnut...my 
bad!

 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: univcity@list.purple.com
 Sent: Thu, 1 Mar 2007 12:50 PM
 Subject: Re: [UC] More about the liquor store/mosque
 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 
 > No, it was a Linton's, complete with conveyor belt... 
 
 hmm... must've been a horn and hardart's at some point. you can still see 
traces of the H, the O, the R, the N, etc. along the black stonework above the 
entranceway. 
 
 
 .. 
 UNIVERSITY*CITOYEN 
 [aka laserbeam®] 
 [aka ray] 
 SERIAL LIAR. CALL FOR RATES. 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
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Re: [UC] More about the liquor store/mosque

[SKnight]

That location was a Horn & Hardart, not a Linton's.  In addition to the 
Linton's at 33rd & Chestnut, there was also one at 52nd & Baltimore between 
Baltimore and Whitby on 52nd with the conveyor belt.  
Sande Knight
  - Original Message - 
  From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
  To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> ; 
univcity@list.purple.com<mailto:univcity@list.purple.com> 
  Sent: Thursday, March 01, 2007 1:33 PM
  Subject: Re: [UC] More about the liquor store/mosque


  Then I must have been thinking of the Linton's over at 33rd & Chestnut...my 
bad!


   
  -Original Message-
  From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  To: univcity@list.purple.com<mailto:univcity@list.purple.com>
  Sent: Thu, 1 Mar 2007 12:50 PM
  Subject: Re: [UC] More about the liquor store/mosque


  [EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: 
  > No, it was a Linton's, complete with conveyor belt... 
   
  hmm... must've been a horn and hardart's at some point. you can still see 
traces of the H, the O, the R, the N, etc. along the black stonework above the 
entranceway. 
   
   
  .. 
  UNIVERSITY*CITOYEN 
  [aka laserbeam®] 
  [aka ray] 
  SERIAL LIAR. CALL FOR RATES. 
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
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Re: [UC] More about the liquor store/mosque - Take-Out

[Craigsolve]

 
In a message dated 2/26/2007 9:43:30 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

one must  apply for a change most of the time, even for another use permitted 
under the  current zoning.  For example, the Firehouse building is zoned C-2  
commercial which allows restaurants and many other things.  But, Dock St.  
had to go before the ZBA because they wanted to sell TAKE-OUT pizza &  beer.  
It 
was for the take-out approval that they had to go. ... This is  why we need 
to revise and simplify the zoning  code.



This was a change made, I believe in 2006 and led by Blackwell, in an  effort 
to control the proliferation of Stop-and-Goes justifying their existence  
because their food was to go, too.
 
The variance application process was to improve the quality of life in  
challenged communities, such as West and Southwest Philadelphia, by forcing  
the 
applicant-vendors to enter into agreements of understanding with the nearby  
residents, who would be affected by possible bad patrons, hours of  operation, 
loitering, and trash.
 
Perhaps someone, Al, will contact Blackwell's office for clarification. I  
believe this requirement should not be removed from any updated Philadelphia  
Zoning Code.
 
This thread seems to have a lot more to do with opinions rather than the  
facts of the Code or the practice of commercial real estate transactions.
 
Of course you Free-Marketers, some of whom want to deny my Second Amendment  
Rights, might be happier with no code such as Texas', where I can buy the lot  
next door to a guy like Cassidy and initiate oil and gas exploration  without 
having to say a word.
 
Communities like families work best when people understand and respect  each 
others' beliefs, desires and needs, and negotiate from there.
 
Ciao 
 
Craig
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Re: [UC] More about the liquor store/mosque - tales from the street

[Craigsolve]

In a message dated 2/23/2007 11:18:49 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

I think _everybody_ probably has concerns about the idea of a liquor  store 
opening up across from their house. Especially if you've been to the one  on 
Market street -- it's archetecturally hideous and is besotted with  panhandlers
Wonder why there have been years of exercised indifference to this  
abomination, with the exception of security modifications in response to  
multiple 
armed robberies?

Nobody wants their kids walking home from school through a stream of  winos
This argument becomes very powerful when the children are those of the  
mostly white privileged UCD middle-class. Wonder why the real estate department 
 
had UPenn couldn't find a modern classy upscale location in one  of its many 
new 
developments or along the soon to be revitalized 40th  Street corridor.

that you people (and our entitled Penn kids streaming up and back from  40th) 
will prevent rather than cause crime as will the swarm of bike cops and  
safety ambassadors who will no doubt flit about them.
Another good point. Why didn't Penn Police and UCD along with the 12th  
District PPD make it a point to support various quality of life initiatives  at 
the 
current/old Market Street location? Oh no, I'm not suggesting it was a  form 
of Jim Crow just an extraordinary form of myopic risk management.
 
On the bright side the Walnut Street location will be a  cornucopia of urban 
visual grit for our digital chroniclers. From a  real estate point of view the 
site has long been problematic based on its size,  and its very poor ingress 
from and egress to a very heavily trafficked  Walnut Street.
 
As a footnote, some years ago, two black men were gunned down in the  highway 
immediately in front of the property. Maybe the Buddhist in  Rosso can 
discern, if their spirits will now let go for a liquor store?
 
Ciao,
 
Craig
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Re: [UC] More about the liquor store/mosque - distance from Penn Alexander school

[Vincent/Roger]

As someone who has (for three separate properties) had to measure the distance 
from my premises to the nearest church and school, I would suggest that the 
distance from the proposed liquor store to the Penn Alexander School is 
(considerably) more than 300 feet.  The "300 feet" guideline is used by the LCB 
to help determine who has standing in a liquor license hearing.  I suppose it's 
less than 300 feet to the Restaurant School, but I don't know if this is 
pertinent.
Roger Harman
  - Original Message - 
  From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  To: UnivCity@list.purple.com 
  Sent: Friday, February 23, 2007 8:10 AM
  Subject: [UC] More about the liquor store/mosque
  Potential move brings potential conflict ..."Most importantly, it's really 
bad for the neighborhood because there are many families, and [it would be] 
less than 300 feet from the school on 42nd" Street, he said. "We're not 
disputing the relocation of this store because it's a religious matter only."