Re: Unhiliting Radio Buttons
If the buttons are spread out over four different cards, you can't use a single command to a single group to turn them all off. So you'll have to use a repeat loop in the openCard handler to loop through the four cards containing radio button groups and apply Chipp's logic to each group. You can use the lock screen command so that the user doesn't see this happening. On 12/1/05, Fred Giannetto <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Hello Chipp, > > Is this in the card script (on opencard)? > > > -- ~~ Dan Shafer, Information Product Consultant and Author http://www.shafermedia.com Get my book, "Revolution: Software at the Speed of Thought" >From http://www.shafermediastore.com/tech_main.html ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: pro and hobbyist --- a distinction without merit
John. You may find the distinction unhelpful but a lot of us find it useful, not just in this community but throughout the world of software development. I don't use the word "hobbyist" because I think that narrows the space too much. I coined the term "Inventive User" several years ago to describe this type of user. There are clear and important differences between professional programmers and inventive users and none of them relates to your response to the distinction. Check out http://www.revolutionpros.com and click on the "Views" link to read a detailed report I wrote on this subject a few years ago for a client and which I think applies quite clearly to RunRev in its present situation. None of this is intended to be "disparaging" which is one of the reasons I don't call those who are not full-time professional programmers "hobbyists" or even "amateurs." On 12/1/05, John Vokey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > This distinction still irks me. I have never had the need to compile > any of my stacks, hypercard, metacard, or RR. But as I have written > thousands of them, and use them daily in my lab, I would count myself > as a ``pro'' user, not a ``hobbyist''. However, just because a > DreamCard-like model fits my needs doesn't mean that I don't need the > increasingly-many add-ons that come only with the ``pro'' version. > Hence, if a distinction needs to be made, stick to the one RR > sensibly chose: DreamCard for those who don't need to produce stand- > alone apps, and RR for those who do. The engine, add-ons, plug-ins, > cross-platform use, etc. should otherwise be the same for both. And > no one needs to be disparaged in the process. > > > -- ~~ Dan Shafer, Information Product Consultant and Author http://www.shafermedia.com Get my book, "Revolution: Software at the Speed of Thought" >From http://www.shafermediastore.com/tech_main.html ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Why isn't Rev more popular?
Kevin. Good to see you posting here! We all would agree that we'd rather have your team focused on bug fixes and other product development issues than spending lots of time on the list. But I would sugget that perhaps it's not an either-or situation but rather a both-and. By allocating only a small amount of time each week on the part of one or two members of your staff, I submit you could go a very long way toward making this user community feeling engaged with and appreciated by you and your team. We know that's the case but it's helpful to be reminded from time to time. -- ~~~~~~~~~~ Dan Shafer, Information Product Consultant and Author http://www.shafermedia.com Get my book, "Revolution: Software at the Speed of Thought" >From http://www.shafermediastore.com/tech_main.html ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Why isn't Rev more popular?
Chipp.. Great contribution to an important discussion. To your point below about RR's isolationism, I think another evidence of that is the company's virtually complete absence from this list. I know the company is small and I know they're really busy but that's not really a legitimate excuse. Someone from RR -- and someone with authority -- should be here every day, commenting on threads (technical and those like this one), providing the company's perspective, asking for input about direction, etc. I know if I were the VP Marketing or Evangelist at RR, I'd be *living* on this list. As many here know, I've been spending a lot of time lately looking at AJAX and Laszlo as rich internet application development spaces. On the discussion boards assocaited with those technologies, the founders are highly visible and active. You have a sense that they are passionate about what they're doing and that staying in touch with their user community is not "part of the job" but a reason for their passion. On 12/1/05, Chipp Walters <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > OK, my turn and 2 cents worth. > > Here are some other reasons why I believe RR is not popular. > > > 2) A largely isolationist business strategy by RR corporate. In the US, > companies rely on building strong strategic relationships with other > companies to help them get larger. Guy Kawasaki has written about this > and has been successful in promoting the 'sum is greater than the parts' > philosophy. RR should build stronger ties with companies who can help > them promote or use their technology. The recent multi-million dollar > acquisition of Konfabulator (an inferior technology to RR) by Yahoo only > points at the fact the company is *not* getting around. > > > -- ~~ Dan Shafer, Information Product Consultant and Author http://www.shafermedia.com Get my book, "Revolution: Software at the Speed of Thought" >From http://www.shafermediastore.com/tech_main.html ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Why isn't Rev more popular?
Bob One of the best-thought-out posts I've seen on this list in the 3 or so years I've been hanging around. I agree with most of it. I trust RR's marketing folk will take it to heart. On 12/1/05, Bob Hutchison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Hi, > > Being new here, and a professional programmer for getting > frighteningly close to 30 years now, maybe I should say something... > > > -- ~~~~~~ Dan Shafer, Information Product Consultant and Author http://www.shafermedia.com Get my book, "Revolution: Software at the Speed of Thought" >From http://www.shafermediastore.com/tech_main.html ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Why isn't Rev more popular?
I'm sure that is a question the RunRev folks would like to have an answer to as well. There certainly isn't just one reason and I doubt there is one main reason. There's a host of things that make up the answer including: 1. As a small company, RunRev doesn't have the resources to get the product as widely promoted as it could if it were larger. 2. It's not "like" anything conventional professional programmers know about so trying to explain it in a capsule is very difficult even for those of us who understand it well. 3. It competes with free languages and tools such as Java, JavaScript, Python, Perl, PHP, many flavors of C. 4. It's not taught at the university level. 5. It has been widely (mis)perceived as a Mac language, particularly because of its resemblance in terminology and language syntax to HyperCard. There are dozens of others. On 11/30/05, Mark Swindell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > What is the main reason (if there is such a thing) that Rev is not > more popular among professional developers/programmers? It's been > around awhile now. People have had a chance to hear about it. It > has garnered some awards, at least on the Mac side. On the face of > things you'd think it would be more popular. > > Just curious to hear what people think. > Mark > > -- ~~ Dan Shafer, Information Product Consultant and Author http://www.shafermedia.com Get my book, "Revolution: Software at the Speed of Thought" >From http://www.shafermediastore.com/tech_main.html ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Constant 'Nonsense' about RR documentation
If you click on "Topics" and then type "How" into the Filter with: field, you get a whole host of examples, most of which work right out of the box. The problem is, these are really buried in the docs. They need to be surfaced. On 11/29/05, Kay C Lan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > If the documentation actually had examples that you could cut and paste > into > a stack, osmosis would take care of the rest, no more posts to the list > asking something very basic. Amending the docs to include 'put' and a > sensible variable name isn't that hard. > > > ~~ Dan Shafer, Information Product Consultant and Author http://www.shafermedia.com Get my book, "Revolution: Software at the Speed of Thought" >From http://www.shafermediastore.com/tech_main.html ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: can't trust htmltext property!
Andre. IMNSHO, the htmlText stuff in Rev is so limited as to border on useless, as you've found. Besides supporting only a minuscule subset of HTML (to be fair the docs are clear that this is the case, so it's not a bug, just not a very useful feature), as you discovered, when you go from setting the htmlText property of a field and then examining the field contents, the resemblance between them is purely cosmetic. Chipp at Altuit has an HTML gadget which does some more stuff than the Rev IDE lets you do and I use it for editing HTML snippets from time to time. He may be able to shed some light on how you could get closer to an HTML editor in Rev, but I've looked long and hard at that problem and declared it, for the moment at least, if not intractable then at least hard enough not to be worth my time. For starters, the inability to deal with text alignment on a line-by-line basis in a Rev field is a show stopper as far as I can tell. On 11/29/05, Andre Garzia <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Hi Folks, > > I am doing a html editor, Is there a solution or should I simply > start rolling > my own rich editor not trusting the HTMLText property... > > ~~~~~~ Dan Shafer, Information Product Consultant and Author http://www.shafermedia.com Get my book, "Revolution: Software at the Speed of Thought" >From http://www.shafermediastore.com/tech_main.html ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: No backgroundcolor
Tha tmay be true with ports but if you create a field in OS X, its border colors work as described, i.e., they show up fine unless the field is 3D in which case they don't. On 11/28/05, MisterX <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > OSX ports are just as chaotic... > > ~~~~~~ Dan Shafer, Information Product Consultant and Author http://www.shafermedia.com Get my book, "Revolution: Software at the Speed of Thought" >From http://www.shafermediastore.com/tech_main.html ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: AW: Following this List
Troy. So true. That's one of the things threaded email apps need to get a lotbetter at, IMNSHO. On 11/28/05, Troy Rollins <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > Of course, this very thread was hijacked from one called "No background > color", and therefore it get categorized as such in threaded readers - > so once again, it is up to the initiator of the thread to understand > how to properly start a fresh one. > > -- ~~~~~~ Dan Shafer, Information Product Consultant and Author http://www.shafermedia.com Get my book, "Revolution: Software at the Speed of Thought" >From http://www.shafermediastore.com/tech_main.html ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: AW: Following this List
I have always resisted the idea of sub-dividing this list for a number of reasons. But as Rev gets more popular, as this list grows in population and as people like me continue to see this list as a place to discuss topics that are arguably semi-tangential, perhaps some reorganization would help. I generally try to put a [OT] in front of the subject line when I post something that's even possibly marginally off-topic. You can use your email app's filter functions to bury those kinds of conversations before they hit your In Box. I've been involved in some lists where the user community simply adopted a convention like that so that categorizing messages was up to the individual who initiates a thread. Such systems work OK but not perfectly because newbies don't always get the clue right away and because some posts are hard to categorize. Using an email app that lets you view emails by threads can go a long way toward relieving the glut, BTW. Combining that tactic with filtering can significantly reduce the number of emails that you actually have to read. On Nov 28, 2005, at 2:52 PM, Thomas Fischer wrote: Hello, I must say I am also somewhat overwhelmed with the flood of messages (114 today, over 2000 in the last two months). I know there is a parallel list regarding externals, which seams to be dormant (or dead?), but is there probably a sensible way to separate the list into different topics, like - technical questions - Revolution company related - (assumed) bugs - xTalk philosophy (there must be better categories)? But in any case, being fairly new to Revolution (Dreamcard) and interested in external functions and commands, I would find more structure and a separation really helpful. All the best Thomas -- Thomas Fischer Salzburg -Ursprungliche Nachricht- Von: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Auftrag von Andre Garzia Gesendet: Montag, 28. November 2005 23:18 An: How to use Revolution Betreff: Re: Following this List Frank, move your subscription to digest mode, it's smaller! :-) cheers andre On Nov 28, 2005, at 7:29 PM, Frank R wrote: I want to keep following this list. But, my inbox is getting blasted pretty good. Are there any other options for following this list, other than e- mail? Is this shadowed to a forum anywhere? Thanks. _________ Dan Shafer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Jacque... Um, actually, foregroundcolor controls both text and border color. bordercolor only works on buttons and scrollbars according to the docs. On Nov 28, 2005, at 1:01 PM, J. Landman Gay wrote: R. Hillen wrote: Hello list, I wanted to make a green rect with a red edge, so I wrote create invisible graphic set the style of it to rectangle set the rect of it to 20,20,50,50 set the foregroundcolor of it to 255,0,0 --RGB_Color set the backgroundcolor of it to 0,255,0 --RGB_Color set the linesize of it to 2 show it I got a white rect with a red edge. Why? I'm not sure, because the "foregroundcolor" controls the text color, not the border. If this wasn't a typo, then set the "bordercolor" instead. Also, do the opaque thing like others have suggested. -- Jacqueline Landman Gay | [EMAIL PROTECTED] HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ~~ Dan Shafer, Information Product Consultant and Author http://www.shafermedia.com Get my book, "Revolution: Software at the Speed of Thought" From http://www.shafermediastore.com/tech_main.html ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ~~ Dan Shafer, I
Re: No backgroundcolor
The issue may be found in your use of the word "field." The original poster was talking about a graphic, not a field. I'm testing on OS X and it works as I described. On Nov 28, 2005, at 2:55 PM, J. Landman Gay wrote: Before I responded I did a quick test and foregroundcolor didn't change the edges. Bordercolor did. But I had to turn off the threeD property to see it -- with threeD turned on, the border was always gray no matter what. In any case, the forecolor didn't change the border color of the field. This is all on OS X. Maybe there is a difference on other operating systems? ~~~~~~~~~~ Dan Shafer, Information Product Consultant and Author http://www.shafermedia.com Get my book, "Revolution: Software at the Speed of Thought" From http://www.shafermediastore.com/tech_main.html ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: No backgroundcolor
Jacque... Um, actually, foregroundcolor controls both text and border color. bordercolor only works on buttons and scrollbars according to the docs. On Nov 28, 2005, at 1:01 PM, J. Landman Gay wrote: R. Hillen wrote: Hello list, I wanted to make a green rect with a red edge, so I wrote create invisible graphic set the style of it to rectangle set the rect of it to 20,20,50,50 set the foregroundcolor of it to 255,0,0 --RGB_Color set the backgroundcolor of it to 0,255,0 --RGB_Color set the linesize of it to 2 show it I got a white rect with a red edge. Why? I'm not sure, because the "foregroundcolor" controls the text color, not the border. If this wasn't a typo, then set the "bordercolor" instead. Also, do the opaque thing like others have suggested. -- Jacqueline Landman Gay | [EMAIL PROTECTED] HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ~~~~~~~~~~ Dan Shafer, Information Product Consultant and Author http://www.shafermedia.com Get my book, "Revolution: Software at the Speed of Thought" From http://www.shafermediastore.com/tech_main.html ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: How to check what card a stack is currently viewing
Good one, Eric! I didn't even try that because the docs seem clearly to limit "this" to the current card/stack. On Nov 28, 2005, at 12:41 PM, Eric Chatonet wrote: if the short name of this cd of stack "blahblah" is then do blah ~~~~~~~~~~ Dan Shafer, Information Product Consultant and Author http://www.shafermedia.com Get my book, "Revolution: Software at the Speed of Thought" From http://www.shafermediastore.com/tech_main.html ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: No backgroundcolor
You need to set the opaque of the graphic to true before the background color displays. It appears that newly created graphics are by default transparent. set the opaque of it to true before you show it and it should work. On Nov 28, 2005, at 11:50 AM, R. Hillen wrote: Hello list, I wanted to make a green rect with a red edge, so I wrote create invisible graphic set the style of it to rectangle set the rect of it to 20,20,50,50 set the foregroundcolor of it to 255,0,0 --RGB_Color set the backgroundcolor of it to 0,255,0 --RGB_Color set the linesize of it to 2 show it I got a white rect with a red edge. Why? May you help? Richard. ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ~~ Dan Shafer, Information Product Consultant and Author http://www.shafermedia.com Get my book, "Revolution: Software at the Speed of Thought" From http://www.shafermediastore.com/tech_main.html ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: How to check what card a stack is currently viewing
Those who have already answered have told you how to check for the current card in the stack in which the handler is executing. But I had a feeling you were trying to check the current card showing in a stack *other* than the current stack. If that's the case, the secret is to temporarily make the other stack the current stack. There are several ways to do this. The simplest one I could come up with off the top of my head looks something like this: on mouseUp lock screen push this card go stack "otherStack" put the name of this card into foo unlock screen pop card answer foo end mouseUp The "unlock screen" isn't strictly speaking necessary but I always like to pair those commands in the same handler just to make my code more readable later. On Nov 28, 2005, at 9:43 AM, Jason - Polydiam Industries Limited wrote: How do I currently check what card a stack is displaying? ~~~~~~~~~~ Dan Shafer, Information Product Consultant and Author http://www.shafermedia.com Get my book, "Revolution: Software at the Speed of Thought" From http://www.shafermediastore.com/tech_main.html ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: This is what REALLY SUCKS about whingeing
That could be said about every development tool and language I've ever used! On Nov 28, 2005, at 5:39 AM, David Burgun wrote: When it's good it's very good, But When it's bad it's - WICKED!!! ~~~~~~~~~~ Dan Shafer, Information Product Consultant and Author http://www.shafermedia.com Get my book, "Revolution: Software at the Speed of Thought" From http://www.shafermediastore.com/tech_main.html ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Constant 'Nonsense' about RR documentation
There was at one point inside Apple a very serious discussion about adding a TCP stack to HyperCard and stuffing it into the ROM. This was a year or more before the Internet exploded. The guy who promoted the idea got show down by Jean-Louis Gassee and left the company. Just imagine On Nov 28, 2005, at 12:13 AM, Dom wrote: wonder why Apple didn't make Hypertalk system-wide (apart reinventing the wheel...) ~~~~~~ Dan Shafer, Information Product Consultant and Author http://www.shafermedia.com Get my book, "Revolution: Software at the Speed of Thought" From http://www.shafermediastore.com/tech_main.html ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Referencing a variable?
Not sure exactly what you're trying to do (or why) but check out the value function in the docs. For a simple example: put 42 into x put "x" into buffer1 put value(buffer1) produces 42 as a result. Is that what you wanted to do? On Nov 27, 2005, at 5:08 PM, Ian Leigh wrote: Hello all, I would like to do the following: Put a variable name into another buffer variable. Reference the actual variable but using the buffer variable. So I only have the name of the variable in the buffer but I want to put a value into the actual variable only by using the variable name which is stored in the buffer. Does this make sense and can it be done? I thought simply : put 123 into "buffer" might work but it doesn't work that way. I have also tried various adds and used the value command too but I can't seem to figure it out. Any insight would be appreciated. Cheers. ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ~~~~~~ Dan Shafer, Information Product Consultant and Author http://www.shafermedia.com Get my book, "Revolution: Software at the Speed of Thought" From http://www.shafermediastore.com/tech_main.html ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Constant 'Nonsense' about RR documentation
One man's "Aaarrgh!" is another man's "Ahhh." On Nov 27, 2005, at 5:03 PM, Dennis Brown wrote: Another thing that makes it different (part of the depth and complexity) is the type-less nature of containers. You tell it what you want it to do generically, and it figures out how based on the kind of data you give it --even if you switched data types the next time through... Aaarrgh! ~~~~~~~~~~ Dan Shafer, Information Product Consultant and Author http://www.shafermedia.com Get my book, "Revolution: Software at the Speed of Thought" From http://www.shafermediastore.com/tech_main.html ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Constant 'Nonsense' about RR documentation
Your feeling is right. I am 60. I don't worry about age. It's a proven fact that people who have more birthdays live longer. Besides, I always heard programming was a young man's game so I figure if I keep doing it maybe the Universe will forget my chronological age. And for my feelings about the docs, go to http:// www.revolutionpros.com and click on "Views". That way I don't have to repeat them here endlessly! On Nov 27, 2005, at 4:33 AM, Mathewson wrote: Although I am a mere 43 (I have a feeling Dan Shafer is older) ~~~~~~~~~~ Dan Shafer, Information Product Consultant and Author http://www.shafermedia.com Get my book, "Revolution: Software at the Speed of Thought" From http://www.shafermediastore.com/tech_main.html ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
OT - My Views on Rev Marketing
The current thread on how Rev should be priced and marketed led to several people -- one here on the list and a few others in private communication -- asking me for my views on the subject because I mentioned I had studied this kind of market several years ago for a defunct client. Rather than burden this list with that lengthy report, I've posted it at my Revolution site for those who are sufficiently masochistic to want to read what I said more than four years ago on the subject. http://www.revolutionpros.com Click on "Views" If you want to discuss it further, rather than clutter up this list, please feel free to go to http://www.eclecticity.com (my blog) and post a response to my pointer post there. I now return you to your regularly unscheduled programming. ~~~~~~ Dan Shafer, Information Product Consultant and Author http://www.shafermedia.com Get my book, "Revolution: Software at the Speed of Thought" From http://www.shafermediastore.com/tech_main.html ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Graphic Design Tools
Judy Wow. Would you believe this? I've owned a GraphicConverter license for years and I never knew it could create or modify graphics. All I've ever used it for is converting from one format to another! ::Sound of open palm smiting forehead:: I just opened it and I actually think I could learn to use it to do all the graphic stuff I've always said I didn't know how to do. I owe you a Latte (or other non-alcoholic drink of your choice) next time you're in Monterey (who knows when THAT might be, hmm?). ;-) On Nov 26, 2005, at 9:49 PM, Judy Perry wrote: Hmmm, but for really simple stuff (and the ability to translate from and two ~75 or more graphic file formats), there's nothing like the shareware program GraphicConverter: http://www.lemkesoft.de Love it... It's no Photoshop, but if you don't quite need Photoshop and, in any event, can't afford it... Judy ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ~~~~~~ Dan Shafer, Information Product Consultant and Author http://www.shafermedia.com Get my book, "Revolution: Software at the Speed of Thought" From http://www.shafermediastore.com/tech_main.html ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Pricing / entry cost for this tool
Really? Man, I knew that guy when he was at Macromedia. I can't remember his name off hand, but that's a startling story. Dan On Nov 26, 2005, at 8:26 PM, Chipp Walters wrote: Richard Gaskin wrote: Gray Matter used to be that source, but they closed their doors many years ago, and today only Macromedia themselves can afford to be the central repository. Yeah, and the guy that ran Gray Matter was a crook. Took a bunch of money from us, and others. Turns out he's now wanted in many states. I was at a conference he was giving a talk at, and the police came and escorted him to jail. Couldn't stop from smiling. ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Pricing / entry cost for this tool
Chipp I would have agreed until the last two revs. I am not personally acquainted with the situation, but several friends of mine who teach and study multimedia development at our local university have complained bitterly to me in the past year about how MM has made development in Flash all but inaccessible to folks who don't grok scripting. I'm not sure how they've managed to do this -- or if it's just a perception -- but it's hurt them in this university curriculum. OTOH, that group is now investigating Rev, so all is not lost! On Nov 26, 2005, at 8:22 PM, Chipp Walters wrote: I've been racking my brain the last 48 hours and I cannot come up with a single development tool company that has succeeded at doing this since Borland's very early days. I'd be delighted if someone could point me to a real exception to that rule, but absent that, I maintain my position. RunRev needs to decide whether it's going to try to get professional coders to switch to Rev or adopt it as a RAD or alternative tool, or go after the untapped market potential of the Inventive User. Until it makes that decision and then permeates the company and its policies with it, it will have difficulty being as successful as it can. I would have to say MM Flash is positioned at the beginner and very advanced users. -Chipp ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ~~~~~~ Dan Shafer, Information Product Consultant and Author http://www.shafermedia.com Get my book, "Revolution: Software at the Speed of Thought" From http://www.shafermediastore.com/tech_main.html ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Trying to change the subject ... :) ... Docs / Videos / Speed Of Thought book
As the author of the work in question, I'm probably not entirely objective, but my *hope* is that my book is a lot more like an O'Reilly title than it is a walkthrough of the IDE. In fact, it doesn't even include an IDE walk-through. OTOH, it is certainly not for the experienced professional Rev coder, but rather for beginning to intermediate developers. In fact, I've had this question come up a few times so tonight I uploaded the Preface to my main Rev site as a free download. You can read the Preface and get an idea who I wrote the book for and what it includes. http://www.revolutionpros.com Click on "My Stuff". On Nov 26, 2005, at 2:56 PM, Frank R wrote: Do you have the Speed Of Thought book? I'm an advanced developer - who's an obvious beginner with this tool. Is that book for me? I'm looking for an O'Reilly-type book for Dreamcard, not a hold-my-hand-while-we-walk-through-the- IDE-with-lots-of-pretty-screen-shots-and-cute-jokes book. Which one is Speed Of Thought? ~~~~~~ Dan Shafer, Information Product Consultant and Author http://www.shafermedia.com Get my book, "Revolution: Software at the Speed of Thought" From http://www.shafermediastore.com/tech_main.html ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Pricing / entry cost for this tool
Frank... On Nov 26, 2005, at 2:40 PM, Frank R wrote: But, seeing how much dialog this generated, I really I wish I never started the thread. :) Why? This kind of dialog is helpful and meaningful and for a lot of us who develop in Rev, this is the only place we can discuss such topics! ~~ Dan Shafer, Information Product Consultant and Author http://www.shafermedia.com Get my book, "Revolution: Software at the Speed of Thought" From http://www.shafermediastore.com/tech_main.html ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Pricing / entry cost for this tool
I agree, Alex, but they remain two separate products. Last I checked, you can't buy Elements and then get credit for an upgrade to Photoshop. In that way, they are similar to Apple's iMovie-Final Cut Pro and GarageBand-Logic Pro product mixes. On Nov 26, 2005, at 2:35 PM, Alex Tweedly wrote: I think I'd count Adobe - Photoshop and Photoshop Elements. I think they're both variants of the same basic product - you might even want to call Elements a "cut-down, crippled version of Photoshop" - but it seems to me like they are basically the same product / same code base. ~~~~~~~~~~ Dan Shafer, Information Product Consultant and Author http://www.shafermedia.com Get my book, "Revolution: Software at the Speed of Thought" From http://www.shafermediastore.com/tech_main.html ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Pricing / entry cost for this tool
That's a wonderful sentiment and a princely idea, Michael. But it would pose a serious administrative nightmare, particularly for software downloaded over the Net where you can't even know where the buyer resides! I have on more than one occasion made one of my products available to someone who emailed me privately and said they needed or wanted it but just couldn't afford it. Maybe if there were a clearing-house of some sort for Third World software needs, some kind of plan could be put into place. But as others have said here in different ways -- and as you well know -- the total cost involved in providing software to a customer is often much larger than the initial fee. Support costs can kill you. And if your customers don't speak English as a primary language and are working on dialup systems at best, support could turn into a real sink hole. On Nov 25, 2005, at 2:04 PM, Michael Lew wrote: I have a couple of educational titles being sold by my University that cost the same number of Australian dollars to Harvard as they do to universities in Africa. It doesn't seem fair. Perhaps software prices could be adjusted for the average (modal) wage in a country. It wouldn't harm me for people in low wage countries to pay me almost nothing instead of absolutely nothing... ~~~~~~~~~~ Dan Shafer, Information Product Consultant and Author http://www.shafermedia.com Get my book, "Revolution: Software at the Speed of Thought" From http://www.shafermediastore.com/tech_main.html ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Kudos to Jacque for the Script Conferences
Here, here! Bravo! Well-done and badly needed. On Nov 26, 2005, at 1:56 PM, Richard Gaskin wrote: Thank you, Jacque, for having the vision and perseverence to pull that off, and the attention to detail to do it so well. ~~ Dan Shafer, Information Product Consultant and Author http://www.shafermedia.com Get my book, "Revolution: Software at the Speed of Thought" From http://www.shafermediastore.com/tech_main.html ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Pricing / entry cost for this tool
You put your finger on it for me, Richard. I developed a detailed strategy for doing just this for another company (one that's no longer in business, not because they adopted my proposal) and have shared that with RunRev privately. There is a model I believe would work but it requires RunRev to focus *its* efforts 100% on the Inventive User market while both leveraging and honoring the pro developer base. On Nov 26, 2005, at 1:24 PM, Richard Gaskin wrote: I would wholeheartedly support a move by RunRev to spin off the pro product to someone else if they find themselves too encumbered with other considerations to handle it effectively. ~~~~~~ Dan Shafer, Information Product Consultant and Author http://www.shafermedia.com Get my book, "Revolution: Software at the Speed of Thought" From http://www.shafermediastore.com/tech_main.html ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Pricing / entry cost for this tool
Richard On Nov 26, 2005, at 1:06 PM, Richard Gaskin wrote: Pros need pro tools, and even hobbysts aspire to professional- looking results. A strategy that appeals to the high end will appeal to both. Ultimately, that's probably true. It's another way of saying Inventive Users eventually become more like pros. But Inventive Users (hobbyists in your parlance) need hand-holding of a different type and depth at the beginning of their experience with Rev and that's where the problems arise. To the degree this is a result of focusing on the pro product maybe that's not so bad. My perspective is admittedly skewed, being dependent on the pro product to manage the three businesses in which I'm CTO: I'd hate to see any slowdown of bug fixes or feature enhancements in the engine to make a prettier entry-level tool. And you just put your finger on another problem for RunRev, didn't you? :-) I maintain that without a significant improvement in the out-of-the- box experience for DC, the company will never reach broad enough appeal to reach critical mass among the Inventive User marketplace. But it's clear to both of us that if they divert resources to that task, development of the pro version will undoubtedly suffer at least delays. That's precisely the trade-off that they will ultimately have to make. ~~~~~~ Dan Shafer, Information Product Consultant and Author http://www.shafermedia.com Get my book, "Revolution: Software at the Speed of Thought" From http://www.shafermediastore.com/tech_main.html ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Pricing / entry cost for this tool
Good question, Mark. I'm not sure RunRev is falling down with respect to either market at this point because neither market has yet reched the point where its demands pose a problem. If you run through Bugzilla and this list I think you'd find that the vast majority of current users are inventive users (glad you like that phrase; I invented it back in the HyperCard heyday) and that among newcomers to Rev out of that audience there's generally a significant amount of initial confusion and consternation that only dissipates with some extensive exposure to the product. Until recently, I suspect most new Rev users were HyperRefugees, but I have a sense that in the recent past -- say the last six months or so -- that has started to shift and more Inventive Users who are discovering Rev without an HC background are coming into the mix. As that happens, there will be even greater pressure on RunRev to find new ways of introducing these people to the concepts and uses of Rev. I have always felt that RunRev ought to focus pretty exclusively on the Inventive User market and I've not only expounded that idea here, I've laid it out in some detail. I do not claim that I think this is a present issue, but I have a sense that it is going to become one as the market expands. On Nov 26, 2005, at 1:03 PM, Mark Smith wrote: Dan, this is an innocent question, not intended to provoke or contradict, but where do you think Rev is currently falling down with regard to either pro developers or inventive users? ~~~~~~~~~~ Dan Shafer, Information Product Consultant and Author http://www.shafermedia.com Get my book, "Revolution: Software at the Speed of Thought" From http://www.shafermediastore.com/tech_main.html ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: The Old Chestnut - Again
David... Good response. I agree that new markets can turn into wonderful exceptions. On Nov 26, 2005, at 12:34 PM, David Bovill wrote: No-one has managed to do this with software components yet. My view is that due to the technology and community involved in the Revolution environment - RunRev are uniquely placed to pull such a trick off. Whether anyone agrees with me on that is another question. I have given up on this dream. In the 70's and 80's, several companies tried -- with true object-oriented platforms such as Smalltalk and Java -- to create viable third-party marketplaces for software components, to no avail. I think it's an unattainable objective, for reasons that are far too complex to go into on this forum. ~~~~~~ Dan Shafer, Information Product Consultant and Author http://www.shafermedia.com Get my book, "Revolution: Software at the Speed of Thought" From http://www.shafermediastore.com/tech_main.html ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: This is what REALLY SUCKS about whingeing
Roger Interestingly, I have *never* encounhtered most of the anomalies mentioned in this thread and I program in Rev exclusively on OS X. Yeah, I'm a MacBigot and I may just be blissfully unaware of these issues. But I've written hundreds of small code snippets for books and articles and more than a dozen commercial-grade apps, to say nothing of a larger number of small utilities, test stacks, demos, proofs-of-concept, etc., and I just don't have the experience with OS X that you report here. On Nov 26, 2005, at 8:57 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Don't get me wrong. The MacOS is a cool and wonderful thing, but there is a certain quirkiness that often is simply overlooked by its many FANaticS (RunRev Team included). ~~~~~~~~~~ Dan Shafer, Information Product Consultant and Author http://www.shafermedia.com Get my book, "Revolution: Software at the Speed of Thought" From http://www.shafermediastore.com/tech_main.html ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Pricing / entry cost for this tool
Dennis A well-thought-out and appreciated post. But, as with others who have offered this viewpoint, I am compelled to ask you to provide even one example of a development tool company following the strategy you describe below that you say is "being used by the most successful companies today." And I'll expand on that a bit. Not only can I not think of a single *development tool* company following the strategy of trying to serve two markets with a single product, I can't even come up with a single successful software company doing that. When I think of successful software companies in the desktop universe, I think of: Microsoft Adobe Macromedia (about to be swallowed by Adobe if that hasn't been finalized yet) Apple (partly) Real Maybe Oracle (which is a dev tools vendor in large part, but not much on the desktop) Adobe doesn't have a low-cost entry version of Acrobat or inDesign. A trial version, yes, but when it expires you pay through the nose to keep using it. Same with Macromedia. Apple supports low- and high-end users in a couple of its strategic markets, but with two separate products, not a low-cost version of the high-priced one. Real has a free player but if you want to start creating Real media streams you're gonna pay a bundle. So where are these software companies that are following this two- market strategy successfully? To the contrary, I think the secret to a successful company -- in any sphere -- is focus. Do what you do well and let others do the stuff you don't do well. If RunRev had a couple hundred people, *maybe* they could figure out how to serve both markets with great success. Short of that, I am unconvinced. On Nov 26, 2005, at 8:52 AM, Dennis Brown wrote: I think that they are more likely to stay in business with the current model --it is the model being used by the most successful companies today. They are growing (I assume) slowly as the product matures. At some point I expect this model is going to propel them forward into a larger company that can offer better general support and product bug fixes (I think bugs cost more to fix than adding minor new features), while continuing to support the professionals needs. ~~~~~~~~~~ Dan Shafer, Information Product Consultant and Author http://www.shafermedia.com Get my book, "Revolution: Software at the Speed of Thought" From http://www.shafermediastore.com/tech_main.html ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: The Old Chestnut - Again
As someone who has been playing in the software universe for far, far too long, I can tell you that: (a) your basic idea is attractive and workable (b) it is an economic disaster for the publisher Why? Because of something called SKUs. That stands for "Stock Keeping Unit" and it's the number by which wholesalers, distributors and retailers identify a specific product uniquely for inventory tracking and sales monitoring purposes. There is a fundamental business principle that says the more SKUs you try to put into the channel of distribution, the greater will be the resistance to your entire line. Large companies can overcome that resistance. Small companies are hard-pressed to do so. On Nov 26, 2005, at 6:13 AM, Mathewson wrote: Might it not be an idea to break RR up into modules: ~~~~~~ Dan Shafer, Information Product Consultant and Author http://www.shafermedia.com Get my book, "Revolution: Software at the Speed of Thought" From http://www.shafermediastore.com/tech_main.html ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Pricing / entry cost for this tool
There's no such thing as bug-free software. And the company has recently begun doing a fantastic job of squashing bugs, so they get the message that they need to be more bug-free. On Nov 26, 2005, at 4:03 AM, David Burgun wrote: Before they do that they need to get all the bugs out of it, ~~~~~~ Dan Shafer, Information Product Consultant and Author http://www.shafermedia.com Get my book, "Revolution: Software at the Speed of Thought" From http://www.shafermediastore.com/tech_main.html ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Pricing / entry cost for this tool
Frank... Supplementing my last post with a response to this On Nov 26, 2005, at 2:41 AM, Frank R wrote: ie for $20 you can have DreamCard but whatever you create can only run in your copy of DreamCard, if you want to deploy to other DreamCard users you'll need the $99 version This would require RunRev to institute another level of copy protection or code protection so that something I write in my copy of Dreamcard wouldn't run in either the free player or in someone else's Dreamcard environment. All so that a few people who don't want to part with a hundred bucks can learn the tool? Nope. Has to be a more economically efficient and sustainable way to accomplish what you want. ~~~~~~~~~~ Dan Shafer, Information Product Consultant and Author http://www.shafermedia.com Get my book, "Revolution: Software at the Speed of Thought" From http://www.shafermediastore.com/tech_main.html ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Pricing / entry cost for this tool
Frank. Can you give us an example or two of where this pricing is common among development tools? I see feature-crippled and time-limited evaluation licensing all the time, but I can't honestly think of a single development tool that has a free learning edition that you upgrade to so you can deploy apps. Also, with an environment like Rev, the distinction between "deploy as a standalone" and "deploy as a stack" is badly blurred by the fact that: (a) anyone with a RunRev tool (and in your scenario that would include anyone who wanted to download it) can run any stack anyone else creates, at least conceptually; and (b) there are at least two free players available that would allow the owner of a 0-cost "learning edition" to distribute (and presumably therefore sell) products that run in either the IDE or the players without paying a dime for the tool. That is a good way to sink the tool company. On Nov 26, 2005, at 2:35 AM, Frank R wrote: This type of Learning Edition pricing is actually common - and well received. ~~~~~~ Dan Shafer, Information Product Consultant and Author http://www.shafermedia.com Get my book, "Revolution: Software at the Speed of Thought" From http://www.shafermediastore.com/tech_main.html ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Pricing / entry cost for this tool
I honestly do not believe that a single small company -- and RunRev is small -- can do a great job of serving both the professional programming market and the hobbyist/Inventive User market. The needs, expectations, demands, support requirements, feature sets, documentation needs, training level and a host of other factors are just too vastly different between them. I've been racking my brain the last 48 hours and I cannot come up with a single development tool company that has succeeded at doing this since Borland's very early days. I'd be delighted if someone could point me to a real exception to that rule, but absent that, I maintain my position. RunRev needs to decide whether it's going to try to get professional coders to switch to Rev or adopt it as a RAD or alternative tool, or go after the untapped market potential of the Inventive User. Until it makes that decision and then permeates the company and its policies with it, it will have difficulty being as successful as it can. ~~~~~~~~~~ Dan Shafer, Information Product Consultant and Author http://www.shafermedia.com Get my book, "Revolution: Software at the Speed of Thought" From http://www.shafermediastore.com/tech_main.html ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Pricing / entry cost for this tool
Well-said, Preston! I'm adding this to my quotation list for my positive reminders of why I do what I do. On Nov 26, 2005, at 12:04 AM, Preston Shea wrote: A thousand bucks to set up your own contracting business? You gotta be kidding! ~~~~~~ Dan Shafer, Information Product Consultant and Author http://www.shafermedia.com Get my book, "Revolution: Software at the Speed of Thought" From http://www.shafermediastore.com/tech_main.html ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Pricing / entry cost for this tool
Frank Not one major development tool has ever succeeded charging for runtime delivery. Not one. You buy a C++ compiler, you don't pay the compiler maker for each copy of your app. Companies that have tried runtime royalty deals over the years -- and there have been many, with a staggering array of ideas for the best way to structure the fees -- have abandoned their plan or gone out of business or both. And with so many free (open source and otherwise) compilers and IDEs out there, it would be suicide for anyone to try to charge per-copy distribution fees in today's market. On Nov 25, 2005, at 7:21 PM, Frank R wrote: But, the door opens to Much Greater revenue when you have scenarios like - 0$ to use the IDE idefinitely, and $X when you deploy your applications. You catch more long term fish that way. ~~~~~~ Dan Shafer, Information Product Consultant and Author http://www.shafermedia.com Get my book, "Revolution: Software at the Speed of Thought" From http://www.shafermediastore.com/tech_main.html ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Pricing / entry cost for this tool
Good points, Richard. On Nov 25, 2005, at 8:12 PM, Richard Gaskin wrote: Personally, I think Rev is priced too low. I can't say I disagree. Back in the 80's -- I know, that's SO last century! -- there were two Smalltalks on the market. Digitalk sold for something like $99. ParcPlace Systems Smalltalk-80 sold for something like $1,000. While there were lots of differences between them, it was entirely possible to build most kinds of apps with the lower-priced product. I asked PPS founder Adele Goldberg one day how come she didn't lower her prices to compete for the broader market with Digitalk. I'll never forget her answer. "People who pay $99 for a development tool expect to learn it in a few hours, master it in a few days and hound tech support unmercifully at no cost. People who pay $1,000 for a development tool take it and their work seriously, understand that it requires a significant effort to learn and master, and are not only willing to pay for support, they are eager to do so because they don't want the company that makes their favorite tool to go out of business." She allowed as how she'd rather have far fewer customers who were professional not only in their work but in their attitude than 1 million hobbyists. In some ways, this discussion is just a rehash of the old battle over who the market for Revolution is or ought to be: professional coders or hobbyists. I know RunRev disagrees with me -- and so do many of you on this list -- but I maintain you cannot adequately serve both markets. ~~~~~~ Dan Shafer, Information Product Consultant and Author http://www.shafermedia.com Get my book, "Revolution: Software at the Speed of Thought" From http://www.shafermediastore.com/tech_main.html ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Pricing / entry cost for this tool
Frank. Thanks for sharing your perspective. I don't *entirely* agree but I don't think you're off the deep end, either. You said, "I'm going to finish evaluating this, and I'm going to start my project, but I won't be done in 30 days, and my journey will probably end there. Maybe I'm in the minority, but I can't afford to lay out for tools anymore until I Know I'm going to get across the finish line with something of value to sell." I noticed the other day that one or Revolution's very few competitors, RealBasic, has an interesting policy that I hadn't been aware of before. When your evaluation license expires, they have an option on the notification dialog to request an extension of time to continue the evaluation. For kicks, I hit that option and within a short time I got a new eval license in email. That seems sensible to me. Rev *is* a big product and although I know that once you know how productive you can be its price seems if anything too low, the fact is that if you don't know that for sure, forking over a few hundred bucks to confirm your suspicions may be asking too much of some folks. Obviously the company can track such requests and decide at some point that you've had long enough to evaluate the product and not grant any extensions. That would keep tire-kickers from using the product and never buying it. OTOH, Frank, if you get to 30 days and you've actually spent serious time with Revolution you will have built at least a few things, perhaps even part of your planned first application, and then to decide that you can't afford to pay for a tool you're not sure you can use to produce something of value to sell may be a very short- sighted decision indeed. I hope you don't make that one. ~~ Dan Shafer, Information Product Consultant and Author http://www.shafermedia.com Get my book, "Revolution: Software at the Speed of Thought" From http://www.shafermediastore.com/tech_main.html ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: PDF documentation
Frank The official docs are available in printed form via the RunRev site, I think, but they take a very long time to get to the U.S. (at least last I checked). If you want to dive into Rev this weekend in PDF form, you can buy my "Software at the Speed of Thought" book, aimed primarily at beginners and early intermediate users. It's available at: http://www.shafermediastore.com/tech_main.html along with two smaller eBooks on more advanced topics. On Nov 25, 2005, at 12:29 PM, Frank R wrote: Are the manuals available anywhere in PDF form, where I can download/print, and do some more serious couch reading? ~~~~~~ Dan Shafer, Information Product Consultant and Author http://www.shafermedia.com Get my book, "Revolution: Software at the Speed of Thought" From http://www.shafermediastore.com/tech_main.html ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Web Plugin for metacard player ( like flash plugin for browsers)
There is not (at least yet) a Web browser plugin for Revolution or MetaCard. On Nov 25, 2005, at 3:05 AM, MITTAL Pradeep Kumar wrote: Is it possible to launch player from the webpage (with parameters of location mc files) ? There are flash plugin for browser . do we have same thing in revolution too?? Thanks for your help Best Regards Pradeep ~~ Dan Shafer, Information Product Consultant and Author http://www.shafermedia.com Get my book, "Revolution: Software at the Speed of Thought" From http://www.shafermediastore.com/tech_main.html ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Meeting at MacWorld SF in January 2006
And if we get that same result this year, I bet someone will set up an offsite BOF. Who needs IDG? Dan On Nov 23, 2005, at 2:30 PM, Mark Wieder wrote: I should say, though, that I tried to set up a BOF last year through IDG, but got absolutely no response. ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Meeting at MacWorld SF in January 2006
I'll up the ante one cent and suggest we plan a BOF for Rev developers, Valentina or not. I'll be going, though I'm not yet certain which dates. On Nov 23, 2005, at 10:25 AM, Lynn Fredricks wrote: Hello all, Im going to MacWorld Expo 2006 in San Francisco in January. It's a great time to get together if you are going. Id like to sit down with folks who are developing with Revolution and Valentina, or those of you who would like to learn more about Valentina. Anyone else going? ~~~~~~~~~~ Dan Shafer, Information Product Consultant and Author http://www.shafermedia.com Get my book, "Revolution: Software at the Speed of Thought" From http://www.shafermediastore.com/tech_main.html ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: backdrop
In fact, backdrop is just broken. I wish they'd take it out of the product or fix it. It hasn't worked right from the beginning. It is tantalizing because if it worked it would be so convenient and useful but it just doesn't work. When I finally realized that and stopped using it, I began losing (slightly) less hair. On Nov 23, 2005, at 8:49 AM, Eric Chatonet wrote: Same problem on Macs :-( Le 23 nov. 05 à 17:48, Peter T. Evensen a écrit : I was hoping the backdrop would be more robust. I guess I could roll my own as you said.It seems backdrops are always a pain on Windows. Wish everyone would just use a Mac. Best Regards from Paris, Eric Chatonet. So Smart Software For institutions, companies and associations Built-to-order applications: management, multimedia, internet, etc. Windows, Mac OS and Linux... With the French touch Free plugins and tutorials on my website Web sitehttp://www.sosmartsoftware.com/ Email[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ Phone33 (0)1 43 31 77 62 Mobile33 (0)6 20 74 50 86 ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ~~~~~~ Dan Shafer, Information Product Consultant and Author http://www.shafermedia.com Get my book, "Revolution: Software at the Speed of Thought" From http://www.shafermediastore.com/tech_main.html ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: [OT] Security Goes Visual
Scott... Indeed. And if we decided to "standardize" on, say, a photo of the user as the standard, then it would become easier and more profitable for the "bad guys" to figure out how to pirate that data and thus defeat its intent. There are no easy solutions as far as I can see. On Nov 22, 2005, at 12:00 PM, Scott Rossi wrote: However, if multiple institutions start using this method, as well as other processes such as software registration for example, you probably *will* have to start remembering the pictures/phrases, because your logins will be different for each server. ~~~~~~~~~~ Dan Shafer, Information Product Consultant and Author http://www.shafermedia.com Get my book, "Revolution: Software at the Speed of Thought" From http://www.shafermediastore.com/tech_main.html ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: [OT] Security Goes Visual
At least one of these I've seen doesn't actually require the user to remember what picture/phrase was chosen except on it being shown. IOW, I choose a picture of a baseball and the word "homer" as my confirmations. When I log in with my usual user ID and password, the server presents those symbols and asks me to confirm that they are the ones I chose. Or it presents, say, three sets of pictures and associated words and asks me to pick the one I chose. The idea is less for the server to identify me than it is for me to be confident that I'm at the right, authentic server. If I choose my picture and word wisely, it's just dead simple. FWIW, one company I've worked with is using a sort of reverse biometric there, presenting the user with a digitized image of the user him/herself. The message is, "If you think you're logging into your bank account and you don't see YOUR picture here, then you aren't being logged into your account, you're being phished." I think the idea has real merit. On Nov 21, 2005, at 7:37 PM, Scott Rossi wrote: The recent thread regarding "thinking graphically" reminded of a recent update my bank made to enhance protection for online banking customers: they added a visual aspect to the login process. When logging into your account, you must now choose an image from a library containing hundreds (thousands?) of images, and related word or phrase that you are to be presented with every time you log in. Presumably this step was taken to thwart phishing attempts since it's pretty difficult, if not impossible, to replicate the login process (the image and login word/phrase are stored on the server). We'll have to see how effective this technique is in the long run. But as a designer, I find this development to be very interesting and wonder if the same safeguards will eventually be be applied to other situations requiring secure login/registration, including software. Pretty soon we'll have to start keeping track of all our visual passwords, either in an image database, or in a descriptive text version of the same. Something to think about... Regards, Scott Rossi Creative Director Tactile Media, Multimedia & Design - E: [EMAIL PROTECTED] W: http://www.tactilemedia.com ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ~~ Dan Shafer, Information Product Consultant and Author http://www.shafermedia.com Get my book, "Revolution: Software at the Speed of Thought" From http://www.shafermediastore.com/tech_main.html ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Usable installers ?
At least one "brand" of Linux does a wonderful job of facilitating the download and installation of applications and development software for Linux. Linspire has a CNR - Click-N-Run technology that even I can use with great ease. :-D On Nov 21, 2005, at 2:04 PM, Ken Ray wrote: On 11/21/05 3:21 PM, "Mathewson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Gosh, Richard Gaskin has obviously got the 'rough end' of Linux. No, I think Richard was talking about installers for other programs (not for installing Linux) and the lack of a consistent way of installing 3rd party programs on various versions of Linux. I'm sure the *Linux* installers are easy... :-) Ken Ray Sons of Thunder Software Web site: http://www.sonsothunder.com/ Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ~~~~~~~~~~ Dan Shafer, Information Product Consultant and Author http://www.shafermedia.com Get my book, "Revolution: Software at the Speed of Thought" From http://www.shafermediastore.com/tech_main.html ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Living together BUT not married: RR/MC and Linux
Richard I know you know this, but just to keep the conversation clear, "open source" doesn't mean "free of charge." Not on any level. A lot of open source software is available for free. Some isn't (MySQL comes to mind immediately). But lots and lots of programmers make lots and lots of money *using* open source and *that's* generally the requirement governments are placing on these projects. IOW, they don't insist the software they buy be free of charge, just built on freely distributable bases. Again, I know you know this, but I felt the urge to clarify. (Can't help it. I'm a writer first.) On Nov 21, 2005, at 8:16 AM, Richard Gaskin wrote: David Bovill wrote: > Linux support is not about how many desktops you can sell > applications to - it is about the quality of developers > you can attract I could write apps for the Pope, but if he won't give me something in return it'll be just as hard for me to pay my rent as writing for slobs. Classism, in any form, doesn't determine viability. > and the ability to deliver intranet I've been shipping internanet and extranet apps for years, for people who feel my time is worth giving something back for. > and government contracts (at least here in Europe) which > specify support for open platforms. It is also about being > able to leverage the huge amount of "free" code that is > available on this platform and integrate it into the project. Depends on the license requirements, doesn't it? That is, even if I inherit enough wealth to be able to afford the luxury of working for free, at the end of the day the RunRev engine isn't open source so it's not possible for me to deliver truly open materials which rely on it. -- Richard Gaskin Managing Editor, revJournal ___ Rev tips, tutorials and more: http://www.revJournal.com ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ~~ Dan Shafer, Information Product Consultant and Author http://www.shafermedia.com Get my book, "Revolution: Software at the Speed of Thought" From http://www.shafermediastore.com/tech_main.html ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: You Either Think Graphically or You Don't
For me, primarily a writer who sees programming as an alternate form of communication, the answer to the question "why program?" is the same as the answer to the question "why write?" or "why paint?" It is in the nature of human beings to create. Each of us has different talents and interests and skills and capabilities and curiosities. Each of us has different perceived needs in the realm of software to deal with our day-to-day tasks. Many of the Revolution apps I've built for myself and others could have been done some other way. Perhaps a set of complex Excel macros could have done the job. Or an off-the-shelf piece of software could come close. But to get that perfect fit between a perceived need and a solution requires a form of artistry that expresses itself in code and UI design in much the same way a custom drawing depicts "just so" a scene or person that could have been captured roughly by some less artistic and precise method. WHy code? Coding is not for everyone. In fact, everyone I know who codes would say there are many days when coding isn't enjoyable or at least isn't their preferred activity. Just as many artist friends will tell me that there are many days they'd rather e sailing or walking the dog than painting or sculpting. But like art, software design and development -- including the grunt work of coding -- gets into your blood. It becomes part of who you see yourself as being. You could no more quit coding than you could quit thinking because very often you think in code. I look at any problem/opportunity in the real world and my first instinct is, "How can I explain this better?" (that's the writer in me) and my second instinct is, "What kind of software could make that problem more tractable?" (that's the coder in me). Every year I receive hundreds of emails and correspondence from people who seek advice about starting or continuing their writing careers. I tell them all the same thing. "Don't write unless you cannot not write." I'd say the same goes for coding. Many people who say they love writing actually love having written; they like the result, but not the process. Same is true for coding. Same, I suspect, is true of artists. My 2 Euros. ~~ Dan Shafer, Information Product Consultant and Author http://www.shafermedia.com Get my book, "Revolution: Software at the Speed of Thought" From http://www.shafermediastore.com/tech_main.html ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
[OT] Web Services Dead? Don't Tell Amazon
During our recent thread on thin-client vs. desktop apps, several people suggested that Web Services were passe, outre and otherwise obsolete and deadsville. Someone forgot to tell amazon.com. They announced not one, not two, but three totally new Web services just this morning. ~~ Dan Shafer, Information Product Consultant and Author http://www.shafermedia.com Get my book, "Revolution: Software at the Speed of Thought" From http://www.shafermediastore.com/tech_main.html ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Overwrite functions...
On Nov 19, 2005, at 8:02 AM, Richard Gaskin wrote: I was never able to turn up a practical use which could not be achieved through other means. Not only that, but in languages where operator overloading is allowed, I'm told by pros that that is one of the largest single sources of bugs in software. ~~~~~~ Dan Shafer, Information Product Consultant and Author http://www.shafermedia.com Get my book, "Revolution: Software at the Speed of Thought" From http://www.shafermediastore.com/tech_main.html ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Overwrite functions...
Overriding built-ins is not supported in Rev as far as I know. On Nov 18, 2005, at 6:00 PM, Gilberto Cuba wrote: Hi, Exists any way of overwrite a functions that it is defined by the Engine Revolution with my function? Example, i want to run a function that i defined like "sec" and not run a function that return the seconds. function sec tValue put value( 1 / cos( tValue ) ) into tResult return tResult end sec Best regards, Gilberto Cuba ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ~~~~~~ Dan Shafer, Information Product Consultant and Author http://www.shafermedia.com Get my book, "Revolution: Software at the Speed of Thought" From http://www.shafermediastore.com/tech_main.html ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Calling webservices from RR
Andre Is your XMLRPC demo site offline now? I dug up an old email where you talked about the demos you did at port 8082 (I think) on your server but that's non-responsive. Dan On Nov 18, 2005, at 5:03 PM, Andre Garzia wrote: Dan, the xml-rpc works fine, anything more we need, it's easy to code on top. There's no SOAP though, and no server side libraries, but third parties can provide that in the future. Cheers andre On Nov 18, 2005, at 10:54 PM, Dan Shafer wrote: Doesn't the built-in xmlrpc stuff in Rev work quite well? Or does it just need a better abstraction layer to make it more usable? On Nov 18, 2005, at 4:12 PM, Andre Garzia wrote: and yes, libraries should be supplied. ~~~~~~~~~~ Dan Shafer, Information Product Consultant and Author http://www.shafermedia.com Get my book, "Revolution: Software at the Speed of Thought" From http://www.shafermediastore.com/tech_main.html ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Calling webservices from RR
Doesn't the built-in xmlrpc stuff in Rev work quite well? Or does it just need a better abstraction layer to make it more usable? On Nov 18, 2005, at 4:12 PM, Andre Garzia wrote: and yes, libraries should be supplied. ~~~~~~ Dan Shafer, Information Product Consultant and Author http://www.shafermedia.com Get my book, "Revolution: Software at the Speed of Thought" From http://www.shafermediastore.com/tech_main.html ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Living together BUT not married: RR/MC and Linux
Richmond. On Nov 18, 2005, at 7:01 AM, Mathewson wrote: Maybe it is time for RR/MC to contain an in-built media player that 'travels with it' and standalones ? ? ? I'm not at all sure I agree, even though the *outcome* you depict is desirable. There are standards for media. I'd rather have Rev support those standards than roll its own built-in media player. Writing and supporting such a player would seem to me to be a significant undertaking and I have other, higher priorities in mind for what *I* would like Rev to spend time and resources doing. A quick search reveals there are multiple apps that allow you to use Linux with QT. So is the real problem RR's support for QT or its less- than-stellar support (to date) for Linux? IOW, I'd hate to see RR spend resources building a media player if the real problem is that they need to extend their QT support somehow to embrace Linux. ~~~~~~~~~~ Dan Shafer, Information Product Consultant and Author http://www.shafermedia.com Get my book, "Revolution: Software at the Speed of Thought" From http://www.shafermediastore.com/tech_main.html ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: OT: AJAX 30-second tutorial
Good pointer, Chipp. Thanks. AJAX is definitely simple in its essence. It's the widgety stuff that gets complex, but with several good to great AJAX libs already circulating, there's no need to roll your own with *that* complicated stuff. Still scrubbin' (with appropriate apologies to Dave Winer and the Foaming Cleanser people) Dan On Nov 17, 2005, at 10:38 PM, Chipp Walters wrote: I know, OT, but since we've been bandying about it for so long now I thought some of you might like to see this. For those of you wondering what the heck it is: http://rajshekhar.net/blog/archives/85-Rasmus-30-second-AJAX- Tutorial.html -Chipp ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: The Disappearing Desktop - It's Real This Time
I think not. Pricing models will change. We'll see pay-per-use, pay-per-month, pay- per-file, pay-per-K and other similar models. When it's not necessary for the manufacturer to package, distribute, sell, track, upgrade and otherwise deal with thousands and thousands of copies of the software out there -- and when piracy becomes all but extinct thanks to the new models -- software prices will dive while profit margins remain high. At least that's how I see it. On Nov 16, 2005, at 7:10 PM, Charles Hartman wrote: On Nov 16, 2005, at 9:43 PM, Alex Tweedly wrote: I don't believe that a "Web-Photoshop" would need to satisfy the digital photography professional (mapping professionals aren't using Google Maps !). I think to get a commercially successful web- based photography editing app you need to satisfy 75% of the population - who start out with 3-6M-pixel photos compressed down to 1/2Mb JPEGs, not the pros using 32Mb RAW images,. Is one implication that, in the brave new web-app world, professional-grade applications -- because nobody but professionals will be using them -- will get really, really expensive? Yes, many are now; but many aren't. Jarhead was edited, as I understand it, by whatshisname the great film editor using Final Cut Pro. Pro- level audio software, though not cheap, is within reach for an amateur. Will that stop being true? Don't like it. Charles Hartman ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution -.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-. -.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.- Dan Shafer Technology Visionary - Technology Assessment - Documentation "Looking at technology from every angle" http://www.eclecticity.com ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: The Disappearing Desktop - It's Real This Time
Not sure, either, but I suspect it's Alta Vista. Dan On Nov 16, 2005, at 6:43 PM, Frank D. Engel, Jr. wrote: The first "web" search engine seems to be a difficult one to track down, however... ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: The Disappearing Desktop - It's Real This Time
Geoff On Nov 16, 2005, at 5:43 PM, Geoff Canyon wrote: A better application would be able to save your work temporarily without having to hit the server. It would also download additional modules in the background whether you had an immediate need or not. This is the sort of intelligent download management that a Rev- based solution could easily provide, and a browser-based solution can't approach (yet). Agreed. Again, I think this is a problem that's not that difficult to solve, but then, everything is easy to teh guy who doesn't have to write the code. ;-) ~~~~~~ Dan Shafer, Information Product Consultant and Author http://www.shafermedia.com Get my book, "Revolution: Software at the Speed of Thought" From http://www.shafermediastore.com/tech_main.html ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: The Disappearing Desktop - It's Real This Time
Lots of my colleagues tell me I'm insufficiently paranoid. Maybe I am. Dan On Nov 16, 2005, at 4:51 PM, Alex Tweedly wrote: I'm not concerned about Internet wires and signals - I happily use Internet banking over public wifi - it's getting the data from the keyboard to the wire, or account info from the wire to the screen that worry me. ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: The Disappearing Desktop - It's Real This Time
Geoff... On Nov 16, 2005, at 4:16 PM, Geoff Canyon wrote: Further, even after universal wireless access, speed can be an issue if large files are involved. As Richard pointed out, downloading 150mb worth of Photoshop each time I want to use it isn't a good idea even at 802.11g speeds. And AJAX never envisions downloading the application. The app runs on the server, the UI runs in the thin client (aka browser) and the data is stored on the server and transferred as necessary. Photoshop may be one of the last apps to go this route. Or maybe someone will find a way to re-factor what Photoshop does in such a way that it is even easier than it seems. (I don't know; I'm not a Photoshop user.) Neither is downloading 30 megabytes of Revolution stackfiles each time I want to edit them. Again, the notion is not necessarily that these large chunks of "stuff" are downloaded. The idea is to create a thin client that accesses the information in a clean, elegant, smooth way for you while letting everything "big" reside on the server. For many applications, local storage is completely necessary until wireless access is 1. Everywhere 2. Really Fast. As long as we think of apps in traditional terms, yes. I have all of my phone contacts stored on my computer. Some of them aren't on my cell phone (admittedly not many). If my phone contacts were stored on a server and I were someplace where I don't have access to the internet, I have no access to those contacts to look someone up and call them. I don't disagree that in the absence of Internet ubiquity there are such needs. I simply argue that Internet ubiquity is not that far off and that we'd do well to be prepared for its arrival. -.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-. -.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.- Dan Shafer Technology Visionary - Technology Assessment - Documentation "Looking at technology from every angle" http://www.eclecticity.com ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: The Disappearing Desktop - It's Real This Time
First, there are several technologies that work around this problem. I am working with a startup that has a USB device that handles this issue nicely and I know of a couple of others. The problem is hardly intractable. Second, what happens when you lose your laptop or have it stolen? This happens with shocking frequency these days and it's getting worse. I'd be a lot more concerned about THAT security issue than with the loss of data over relatively secured and busy Internet wires and signals. On Nov 16, 2005, at 3:52 PM, Alex Tweedly wrote: I have good confidence in the sanctity of my laptop, so I'm happy to use it, even over public wifi access, because all the traffic is ssh-secured end-to-end. But using a web cafe, or kiosk, public Internet access at a library, etc. all put me at risk; the encryption happens *after* the data is out of my control. I can't be sure there isn't a keylogger or similar there grabbing my password. ~~~~~~~~~~ Dan Shafer, Information Product Consultant and Author http://www.shafermedia.com Get my book, "Revolution: Software at the Speed of Thought" From http://www.shafermediastore.com/tech_main.html ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: The Disappearing Desktop - It's Real This Time
Richard This thread can end here any time it wants. I stopped being proactive on it a long time ago. I just keep answering questions people post. :-) Dan On Nov 16, 2005, at 2:56 PM, Richard Gaskin wrote: Dan Shafer wrote: So, my bottom line on *this * issue: AJAX apps have a solid edge. Does that mean we'll see this thread move to the AJAX list? ;) -- Richard Gaskin Managing Editor, revJournal ___ Rev tips, tutorials and more: http://www.revJournal.com ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: The Disappearing Desktop - It's Real This Time
I can only shake my head. Dan On Nov 16, 2005, at 3:09 PM, Judy Perry wrote: Funny, we just talked about biometric stuff in class a couple of weeks back. Of course, one problem with things like thumb/face scans is that they can be cut off your body (happened to a guy whose MB got carjacked and which used biometrics for access). As for your face, well, there's a doctor somewhere in Europe I think who will shortly (within a few years) attempt a facial transplant. Already done it with rats and the like. I kid you not. Judy On Wed, 16 Nov 2005, Dan Shafer wrote: occur. Today, there are increasing advances being made in biometric mechanisms (thumb-prints, retinal scans, etc.), which is one way of addressing this problem. ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: The Disappearing Desktop - It's Real This Time
Dennis. The tablet PC is just a side issue here. My original point with respect to this issue was that a "zero-pound computer" was a desirable objective. This means that my data and my applications live on a server somewhere and I can access them from anywhere, whether I have "my" computer with me at the time or not. I can go to a kiosk, FedEx Kinko's, wireless hot spot with a handheld...whatever. Dan On Nov 16, 2005, at 2:59 PM, Dennis Brown wrote: Sorry, I am joining this thread late and this might be a bit of a backup. How does this differ in principle from a LAN or WLAN tablet pc? The display and input is in your hand, but the computing service, storage, and other I/O are located somewhere else. The only difference is the communication link. So if that is the case, I think that the tablet concept will need to be a successful model first. Not that I am saying it won't be, I happen to think it is a viable model as well as home timesharing networks. Once this model is in place, it is a micro-step to putting some computing services on the other side of the internet. If it works at home, why won't it will work across the world --or the other way around? Dennis On Nov 16, 2005, at 5:24 PM, Dan Shafer wrote: Good job focusing this aspect of the discussion, Geoff. On Nov 16, 2005, at 1:39 PM, Geoff Canyon wrote: So if AJAX apps are secure but need local storage, and Rev apps have local storage but need security, which will get what it needs first? My position: once a machine has been booted and the user has logged into a server/service where his "stuff" is, local storage can be made completely unnecessary. Note, I'm not saying it should or must be made unnecessary, just that it's possible. I can't think of a *technical* reason why my user ID, password, etc., can't be stored on a server. The only question is where and how does authentication occur. Today, there are increasing advances being made in biometric mechanisms (thumb-prints, retinal scans, etc.), which is one way of addressing this problem. Another is with a secure external (think USB thumb drive) device on which my security info is stored and secured. There are several technologies out there that do this now. So, my bottom line on *this * issue: AJAX apps have a solid edge. ~~ Dan Shafer, Information Product Consultant and Author http://www.shafermedia.com Get my book, "Revolution: Software at the Speed of Thought" From http://www.shafermediastore.com/tech_main.html ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: The Disappearing Desktop - It's Real This Time
Not sure I see a connection here, Geoff. If my data's on a server, how I access it seems irrelevant to the question of its availability. Of course, all of us await the day when wireless is ubiquitous. And Google may make that happen just for grins. Dan On Nov 16, 2005, at 2:42 PM, Geoff Canyon wrote: On Nov 16, 2005, at 2:24 PM, Dan Shafer wrote: So, my bottom line on *[the local storage] * issue: AJAX apps have a solid edge. Agreed, but only once wireless becomes universally available. That's going to be some time coming. ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: The Disappearing Desktop - It's Real This Time
Good job focusing this aspect of the discussion, Geoff. On Nov 16, 2005, at 1:39 PM, Geoff Canyon wrote: So if AJAX apps are secure but need local storage, and Rev apps have local storage but need security, which will get what it needs first? My position: once a machine has been booted and the user has logged into a server/service where his "stuff" is, local storage can be made completely unnecessary. Note, I'm not saying it should or must be made unnecessary, just that it's possible. I can't think of a *technical* reason why my user ID, password, etc., can't be stored on a server. The only question is where and how does authentication occur. Today, there are increasing advances being made in biometric mechanisms (thumb-prints, retinal scans, etc.), which is one way of addressing this problem. Another is with a secure external (think USB thumb drive) device on which my security info is stored and secured. There are several technologies out there that do this now. So, my bottom line on *this * issue: AJAX apps have a solid edge. ~~~~~~~~~~ Dan Shafer, Information Product Consultant and Author http://www.shafermedia.com Get my book, "Revolution: Software at the Speed of Thought" From http://www.shafermediastore.com/tech_main.html ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: The Disappearing Desktop - It's Real This Time
Geoff Not a bad job of abstraction and generalization, given the limitations of both of those methodologies. The two advantages you mention for Rev are essentially the same (if you view command keys, e.g., as UI widgets that just don't have a visible representation) and are the very reason AJAX competes well. AJAX embodies the potential for a reasonably complete set of UI widgets as well. Some of the libraries on the market have more types of UI widgets than even Rev (e.g., something called an accordion that companies like Macromedia use a lot and that isn't built into Rev but is a standard component in at least three of the AJAX libraries I've evaluated so far). So *if* -- and that's a big "if" -- the *only* advantages of Rev over AJAX is the UI componentry, then Rev has essentially little or no advantage. But in point of fact, Rev simplifies a lot of the *server-side* stuff that is part of the entire end-to-end AJAX solution (notably database access abstraction). That's why I think there -- and the development of AJAX interface design tools -- is where Rev's 'sweet spot" in the AJAX/RIA application "revolution" lies. On Nov 15, 2005, at 9:23 PM, Geoff Canyon wrote: The advantageous differences are: AJAX -- there isn't just one engine: multiple web browsers supported, some open source. AJAX -- the engines are on just about every modern computer. Revolution -- a reasonably complete set of UI widgets. Revolution -- a more application-like interface: menus, command- keys, etc. ~~ Dan Shafer, Information Product Consultant and Author http://www.shafermedia.com Get my book, "Revolution: Software at the Speed of Thought" From http://www.shafermediastore.com/tech_main.html ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: The Disappearing Desktop - It's Real This Time
David. If we had a trusted business relationship established and you needed my accounts, I would feel every bit as secure making them available over the Net as I do sending them in the mail. Since we don't :-) Dan On Nov 15, 2005, at 3:22 PM, David Bovill wrote: On 14 Nov 2005, at 20:53, Dan Shafer wrote: Agreed. That and security are the issues and they have been more than adequately addressed for a long time now. The "omigod my data isn't on my own server" alarm is a red herring. Any company that sees the advantage in distributed browser-based apps can easily deal with the "scary" parts of the solution. Go on then Dan - send me your last years accounts. I promise my company won't look at it, data mine it, or forward any information gained to any third party. To really reassure you, why not fill in a signed web form which binds me to my little promise? You can trust me honest :) Seriously though Dan - I agree with you. Every time you make a normal credit card transaction over the phone you are exposing yourself to such risks if not more so - getting users to agree to that is another matter. ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: The Disappearing Desktop - It's Real This Time
Agreed. That and security are the issues and they have been more than adequately addressed for a long time now. The "omigod my data isn't on my own server" alarm is a red herring. Any company that sees the advantage in distributed browser-based apps can easily deal with the "scary" parts of the solution. On Nov 14, 2005, at 11:23 AM, Ken Ray wrote: How comfortable would you feel if all your Revolution source code and stack components were stored on somebody else's computer at some site remote from you? The same way I feel that all my web site source code and components are stored on someone else's computer at some site remote from me... I'm fine with it so long as I have direct access to it and can keep a backup in case the server goes down. ~~~~~~~~~~ Dan Shafer, Information Product Consultant and Author http://www.shafermedia.com Get my book, "Revolution: Software at the Speed of Thought" From http://www.shafermediastore.com/tech_main.html ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: The Disappearing Desktop - It's Real This Time [long]
And this is precisely the problem set at which AJAX is squarely aimed. On Nov 14, 2005, at 11:17 AM, Jan Schenkel wrote: Until browsers offer more "widgets" that don't require horrendous Javascripts to control the data entry and limit the round-trips to the server, the building of such solutions will remain hard. ~~~~~~ Dan Shafer, Information Product Consultant and Author http://www.shafermedia.com Get my book, "Revolution: Software at the Speed of Thought" From http://www.shafermediastore.com/tech_main.html ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: The Disappearing Desktop - It's Real This Time
OK, good points all around. I have dampened -- but only slightly -- my original thought that triggered this thread. I lost sight momentarily of the fact that there's never only one solution to all problems. Some categories or types of applications will not lend themselves to AJAX/RIA deployment, at least not immediately. But I don't think this negates the fundamental truth of my core position here: this kind of app, perhaps with additional infrastructure improvement, is the wave of the future. Rev developers and RunRev itself need to be positioned to play an appropriate role in this new universe or get run over. On Nov 13, 2005, at 11:45 AM, Sivakatirswami wrote: More real world testimony: For several years I've been uploading the files for our magazine Hinduism Today to Banta Publication in Missouri, using their "Emerge" program which is this giant JAVA applet that runs inside a browser and interfaces with Creo's amazing InSite prepress system. It's really a marvel, but horribly slow, and I can tell from machinations on Banta's side they and Creo have been struggling with engineering this beast to run inside different browsers with different levels of JAVA installed. Does it work? yes... but.. guess what.. after three years of this, while sort out some tech upgrades on Jan 06 upload, my tech support in Electronic Prepress in Kansas City is on the phone and says to me "Hey right Emerge is a pain... go to this directory and download Creo's new desktop app, I know you are not afraid of the bleeding edge and you can test this for us... not all the functions are there, yet, still in beta, but you can just drag and drop your files.. and ... etc." OK, so I open up Creo's new desk top app to interface with the remote InSite server in Missouri from Hawaii... it's beautiful...and we all know the Creo's engineers must have breathed a huge sigh of relief when someone said "OK, ditch the browser guys, just build something that works" If Banta Publications (one of US's top five printers) and Creo (recently purchased by Kodak) do not represent real market forces... I don't know what real market forces are... and they seem to be going the other way... yes of course, use the internet, but just the wires... i.e. it is "our web" not MS's web, or Netscape's web or anybody elses web. For these people, as Chipp said, productivity is the most important issue, with nearly 500 publications a year to get out the door, some of the weeklies, its time to get real, and the glitter of the web service has finally worn off, get the job done...just build the tool we really, really need. Sivakatirswami On Nov 10, 2005, at 8:15 AM, Richard Gaskin wrote: That web apps will become an increasingly important "also" at Microsoft and everywhere else is a given. But replacing all apps? Somehow I think not, and I suspect Microsoft's clever marketing move is as much a distraction as anything else, consistent with the company's demonstrated character and history ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ~~ Dan Shafer, Information Product Consultant and Author http://www.shafermedia.com Get my book, "Revolution: Software at the Speed of Thought" From http://www.shafermediastore.com/tech_main.html ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: scrolling to a line
FWIW, I don't think that's expected behavior or necessarily good user experience design. If there's no "find" then things should stay the same. Maybe a beep but a scroll to a phantom location doesn't really help me much, doesn't give me any new information. My $0.02. On Nov 13, 2005, at 8:08 AM, Charles Hartman wrote: But it doesn't solve one problem: suppose the user starts typing a string that doesn't appear in the list? If the first few letters match something, this scrolls to pretty close. But suppose nothing starts with 'Q' and the user starts by typing a 'q'? The list won't scroll at all. What would be nicer would be to scroll to the place where an item beginning with 'q' *would* be if there were one. ~~ Dan Shafer, Information Product Consultant and Author http://www.shafermedia.com Get my book, "Revolution: Software at the Speed of Thought" From http://www.shafermediastore.com/tech_main.html ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: The Disappearing Desktop - It's Real This Time
From which experience i conclude: (a) AJAX and RIAs are not a panacea (b) $2 billion acconting firms IT shops probably don't embrace new technologies in the first place (having seen *that* up close and personal) (c) Moving information from one Web service to another is often difficult because of all the impenetrable crap put in the way for "security" in the first place (d) This technology has a ways to go. On Nov 12, 2005, at 2:34 PM, Sivakatirswami wrote: The CIO of a 2 billion dollar accounting firm that handles movie and media events accounting for the likes of Warner Brothers and Disney, is on our team... he was just here in my office yesterday, explaining to me to be "very cautious" about using of web services. Warner Brother's forced them into it and he says the kajillion lines of code that have evolved from this decision... just to do the simple of things, where all that is really happening is a very little bit of data is moving via an XML protocol from one machine to another, is costing everybody, big time...he said "don't go there!" just FYI. On Nov 09, 2005, at 1:38 PM, Dan Shafer wrote: I almost labeled this post off-topic since our purpose here is to discuss how to use Revolution. But I decided on balance that it affects everyone here, so I left off the [OT]. I've just posted a blog entry at http://www.eclecticity.com/. 3c66aaec that I believe should be of interest to everyone who is in the programming universe today. I've been leaning in this direction for years, drawn strongly to it for the past few months, and have now tipped over the edge. Some will think I'm over the edge, alright, but perhaps not in the way I intended. My prediction -- based on a lot of evidence and clinched by two leaked Microsoft memos that you really need to read (they're indirectly linked in my blog entry) -- is that the days of the desktop app are indeed finally numbered. At best, we will see desktops reduced to being containers for ultra-thin clients and specialized Internet browsing tools while *everything else* runs as a (probably ad-supported) Web service. Yeah, I know. You've heard this before. And there's a lot of skepticism here and elsewhere on the Net. But Ray Ozzie's no idiot and Microsoft's not ignorant or stupid (whatever else they may well be). Comments welcome, though I'd appreciate it if you'd register for my blog (it's free) and post them there even if you choose to echo them here. This issue is much bigger than Rev but it affects everyone on this list, IMNSHO. -.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.- .-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.- Dan Shafer Technology Visionary - Technology Assessment - Documentation "Looking at technology from every angle" http://www.eclecticity.com ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ~~ Dan Shafer, Information Product Consultant and Author http://www.shafermedia.com Get my book, "Revolution: Software at the Speed of Thought" From http://www.shafermediastore.com/tech_main.html ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Word 1 to -1 Truncating Entire Paragraphs?
There may be a clue in the fact that it chops at the first comma. Perhaps that's set as a delimiter somewhere? Dan On Nov 11, 2005, at 11:57 AM, Sivakatirswami wrote: I am using a routine discuss on this list sometime back to kill vertical white space (extra cr's) at the beginning and end of a large text chunk.. put word 1 to -1 of fld "transcript" into tFinalTranscript But this is suddenly chopping off whole paragraphs and chars at the end of the file. e.g. the following which represents the end of a file. Le petite insect ki tappe dans la nuit. C'est une "cricket" en Creole. La langue creole est tres jolie. So vocabulaire est tres pauvre, donc, il faut decrire toute les choses avec beaucoup des les petites mots tres jolie. Est Creole a le meme syntax que Anglais, pas comme le haute francaise de Paris! plus de text ici plus de text ici ends up like this in the final output Le petite insect ki tappe dans la nuit. C'est une "cricket" en Creole. La langue creole est tres jolie. So vocabulaire est tres pauvre, # the rest is missing. I have test this by simply commenting out this line: -- put word 1 to -1 of fld "transcript" into tFinalTranscript put fld "transcript" into tFinalTranscript and the entire transcript is delivered to the variable.. it's that " word 1 to -1" which is chopping of entire blocks of text... This seems like a bug to me... or am I missing something? Sivakatirswami ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Need help with Revolution!
Erin Not quite. After Volume 1 was published, RunRev and I decided, for a number of reasons, not to continue with the plan to publish Volumes 2 and 3 as such. Instead, we're releasing larger-than-chapter-sized eBooks covering specific topics in somewhat greater detail than the book had intended and accompanying these with demonstration stacks and other supplemental material. The first two are on CGI and custom properties. The third, on printing, is in final production at the moment and as soon as I work out one or two glitches will be released, certainly next week. Thereafter, I'll be releasing new SmartEBooks (auto-updating, multi- file eBooks+) on additional topics over the next few months. On Nov 11, 2005, at 5:43 AM, Erin D. Smale wrote: Just a quick question: do the two subsequent ebooks available on your site contain the material proposed for Volumes 2 and 3? ~~~~~~ Dan Shafer, Information Product Consultant and Author http://www.shafermedia.com Get my book, "Revolution: Software at the Speed of Thought" From http://www.shafermediastore.com/tech_main.html ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Revealing a folder on Mac
David
NOt without some understanding of what "kwote" does.
Dan
On Nov 10, 2005, at 3:28 PM, David Bovill wrote:
on folder_Open someFolder
replace "/" with ":" in someFolder
put line 1 of the volumes into startUpDisk
-- "Macintosh HD:Applications:Revolution 2.6.1:"
put startUpDisk before someFolder
put "tell application" && kwote("Finder") into someAppleScript
put return & "activate" after someAppleScript
put return & "open folder" && kwote("[[someFolder]]") after
someAppleScript
put return & "end tell" after someAppleScript
put merge(someAppleScript) into someAppleScript
do someAppleScript as AppleScript
end folder_Open
Does this work for people?
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Re: Need help with Revolution!
Thanks, Kevin. It's always nice to hear kind words from happy readers! Dan On Nov 10, 2005, at 3:18 PM, K J wrote: Just wanted to say thanks Dan for creating your e-book on Revolution. I just started reading it and I have to say so far I have learned alot from it. I recomend this book to any newbie Revolution users out there. Thanks Kevin ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Rev and the Disappearing Desktop: A Focus Shift
On Nov 10, 2005, at 1:01 PM, David Bovill wrote: This is OK - but more interested in Rev as a client side technology here. The two customers I know of want fast rich clients on the intranet, and standard web services that they can pick from a large range of open source developers and languages for. Take this as a third possibility? Absolutely. I'm a great believer in "both-and" rather than "either-or"> I'm willing and eager to put some serious time and even a little money on the table to facilitate this if we can assemble a small team of people who want to explore it seriously. Any interest? Sure - would be prepared to top up the pot a little too, Great. I'll check back and if we gen up enough interest, I'll figure out how to structure something. ~~~~~~ Dan Shafer, Information Product Consultant and Author http://www.shafermedia.com Get my book, "Revolution: Software at the Speed of Thought" From http://www.shafermediastore.com/tech_main.html ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: previous card issue
Yes, you are misunderstanding. "previous" *always* means the card immediately prior to this one in the stack arrangement of cards. "recent" is the most recently card the user has visited. On Nov 10, 2005, at 11:21 AM, Brian K. Maher wrote: Am I misunderstanding something here? Does 'previous' not mean the previously viewed card? ~~~~~~~~~~ Dan Shafer, Information Product Consultant and Author http://www.shafermedia.com Get my book, "Revolution: Software at the Speed of Thought" From http://www.shafermediastore.com/tech_main.html ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Rev and the Disappearing Desktop: A Focus Shift
I sat down this morning to write a new email segueing off the topic of whether the desktop is disappearing or not and focusing on the question of how Rev could play in that space as it emerges. This allows us to abstract out the discussion about whether I'm right or wrong predicting the rapidly approaching ubiquity of AJAX and RIA apps built around general- or special-purpose Web browsers (what I called "thin clients" that, as Richard Gaskin pointed out, may not be so thin after all). Instead, we can focus on where Rev might play a key role in this new technique as it emerges. And then Andre wrote: I think there's a market for AJAX Development Tools, many people want to start to code with AJAX but there's no nice friendly environment yet. Also could dashboard widgets qualify as AJAX? Absolutely. I see two possible applications for Rev in the emerging world of AJAX and RIA development. First, there's what you suggest here, Andre: the creation of a tool for building such apps. Now there's a very interesting paradox here isn't there? Should such a tool exist as a standalone app? Or is that so inherently self-contradictory that it's: (a) a bad idea; and (b) an idea that would produce a product nobody would want to use? Good questions, for sure. Second, there's the idea -- on which you also touched -- of using Rev to create the *server-side* technologies that wrapper and facilitate the development and deployment of AJAX applications. Third, there's a marriage of those two tool approaches. I'm willing and eager to put some serious time and even a little money on the table to facilitate this if we can assemble a small team of people who want to explore it seriously. Any interest? ~~ Dan Shafer, Information Product Consultant and Author http://www.shafermedia.com Get my book, "Revolution: Software at the Speed of Thought" From http://www.shafermediastore.com/tech_main.html ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: The Disappearing Desktop - It's Real This Time
Absolutely, Trevor, and several such libraries already exist. I'm doing a comparative analysis on them at the moment. On Nov 10, 2005, at 11:15 AM, Trevor DeVore wrote: A really good library for interacting with the DOM that has support for drag/drop and other interface niceties is a must if you are going to get into browser based web apps. -.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-. -.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.- Dan Shafer Technology Visionary - Technology Assessment - Documentation "Looking at technology from every angle" http://www.eclecticity.com ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: The Disappearing Desktop - It's Real This Time
Maybe it's a thin client that overate last night. Dan On Nov 10, 2005, at 11:03 AM, Richard Gaskin wrote: Given that a script interpreter will reside client-side in either the browser, a Ruby interpreter, a Python engine, or a Rev engine, the difference between "thick" and "thin" in this context seems largely semantic. ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: The Disappearing Desktop - It's Real This Time
Trevor. On Nov 10, 2005, at 10:33 AM, Trevor DeVore wrote: Getting things to work across browsers can be a headache. Start with the basic assumption that only a browser that groks the XMLHTTPRequest object is a candidate for AJAX technology deployment. The subset of those browsers is already very far down the path of eliminating or minimizing cross-browser problems. The problems arise because of the necessity most of us as Web developers feel we have to drag along the pre-modern browsers. If you focus only on the most recent generation of browsers, the cross-browser problems are becoming fewer and fewer, and libraries and functions exist to abstract away from those pretty easily. -.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-. -.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.- Dan Shafer Technology Visionary - Technology Assessment - Documentation "Looking at technology from every angle" http://www.eclecticity.com ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: The Disappearing Desktop - It's Real This Time
On Nov 10, 2005, at 10:12 AM, Chipp Walters wrote: Then there is the ubiquitous 'Web Services.' They have been touted by the press and media for the past 5 years as the 'new technology', yet we still see very little in the way of open web services available to write apps around. Certainly not the cornucopia the analysts led us to believe was coming. I don't know what analysts projected a cornucopia (good word!) of Web services platforms, but there are quite a number out there. Virtually all of the app servers can be viewed as such platforms. The fact that something hasn't yet been done or done right doesn't make the fundamental notion wrong, only the timing perhaps. And your notions about 'specialized browsers' and discounting Andre's server development issues so quickly only points to the great hurdles which AJAX still has to make, currently with no visible roadmap. Andre has a server developer's perspective on this and it's not that I discounted it quickly or lightly, just that it has to be seen for what it is: a single-perspective take. Again, I'm not interested in defending AJAX (or for that matter Laszlo) per se. The *concept* of thin clients running Web services-based applications has the endorsement and attention of a broad range of developers, big and small, and is starting to get some serious traction. Lumping it in with all that has happened in the past may be illustrative and may help it to avoid some of the known pitfalls but it doesn't diminish its future potential or validity. My suggestion, is try and develop a full AJAX application, then get back to us on what you find. My gut tells me it's a lot more difficult than doing the same in Rev. For me, just like the other mentioned technologies, I'll wait and see. I plan to do just that. And I hope a LOT of people wait and see. That just gives this old gray-haired techno-weenie enough of a head start to stay ahead of the stampede when it does come. (Let's see, to develop in AJAX, you probably need to be an expert in the following: Javascript HTML CSS PHP,ASP or JSP SQL DOM XML cross-platform techniques cross-browser techniques ODBC I agree with the first four items. It's not clear that you need to grok DOM XML at any depth because the XMLHTTPRequest object abstracts a lot of that stuff out and lets you use InnerHTML to update DOM components so that all you really need to know is the name of the component to be updated. As for cross-platform and cross-browser techniques, I don't think those are as big issues as they seem. If you assume the user will live with a browser-based UI that isn't identical to his desktop platform, that issue gets eliminated. Cross-browser techniques are so far almost zero because once you've established that the browser understands the XMLHTTPRequest object -- either as a standard part of the environment or, in the case of IE, as an ActiveX component -- you've pretty much eliminated MOST (though surely not quite all) of the browser dependencies. And I can't imagine that understanding ODBC would be necessary at all. Also, I think it's important to point out that to write ANY decent interactive Web content, you have to understand the first four things on your list -- or team up with others who do. So that's hardly a compelling anti-AJAX argument. To undertake serious app development in Rev, you have to master a fairly broad set of technologies, techniques and skills as well. I don't think that makes Rev an unusable environment. Wow! That's a lot.) I, too, like the idea of very thin clients. But as you know, they've been tried before, and before, and failed. Perhaps the underlying reason they fail has nothing to do with software availablility, but rather the requirement for some users to work 'off the net' and most users to 'own their own data.' I think this has been a problem of the absence of a critical mass or tipping point. And I think that point is about to be reached. That's what this whole discussion is really about. I don't disagree with any of the analyses that have taken place here with respect to where we have been in the past or where we appear to be today. My vision is fixed on the future. The day is soon coming -- if it's not already here -- when there will be orders of magnitude more server-based applications than Rev applications. I just want Rev to play a legitimate and visible role as this emerges. best, Chipp -.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-. -.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.- Dan Shafer Technology Visionary - Technology Assessment - Documentation "Looking at technology from every angle" http://www.eclecticity.com __
Re: The Disappearing Desktop - It's Real This Time
No, specialized ultra-thin custom browsers that RUN apps on the server. Thin clients, not thick. On Nov 10, 2005, at 10:03 AM, Richard Gaskin wrote: Specialized ultra-thin custom browsers that download apps from a server? -.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-. -.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.- Dan Shafer Technology Visionary - Technology Assessment - Documentation "Looking at technology from every angle" http://www.eclecticity.com ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: The Disappearing Desktop - It's Real This Time
Andre. On Nov 10, 2005, at 8:47 AM, Andre Garzia wrote: desktop is cheaper and easier to deliver Once again, your view is limited to what now is rather than to what can and will emerge. Software is an ecosystem. Today, if you took your blogging tool and made an AJAX version, you might well see yourself being forced to create a massive and expensive network/ server infrastructure. But you might not. Mirrored sites, a mesh of cooperative servers run by a third party supplier, rented space on a large server farm with on-demand capacity...there are dozens of possible solutions to the problem. What I'm trying to do here is to get the Rev community to think outside the desktop application box into which it fits so neatly because it is my considered opinion, based on more than three decades of experience in technology assessment and analysis, that the box is rapidly disappearing. I don't want us to abandon Rev; I want us to figure out new things we can do with Rev -- or get RunRev to add to or change about Rev -- that will allow it to play a premier role in the changing marketplace. For a simple example: the best-of-breed AJAX developer's toolkit could and perhaps should be written in Rev. Server-side Rev componentry to support AJAX would be another great opportunity. There are several such large gems lying on the ground waiting for someone to pick them up and run with them. This stuff is in its infancy. An evolutionary shift in infrastructure is needed. Before its adoption by MS and Sun and other Big Players, that kind of change would have been difficult if not unthinkable. Their entrance into the marketplace makes it inevitable at the same time as it accelerates the day of its ubiquity. All of the arguments that have been advanced here to demonstrate why I'm wrong are based on today's reality and even then I don't agree with most of them because their viewpoint is necessarily limited to the experience of the individual expressing them. But if we raise our eyes up to the horizon and look at what can and may well happen to facilitate this new wave in software, I think we can -- and I certainly do -- conclude that there is not a single insurmountable problem out there. When I discovered Rev and then quickly discovered how minuscule its audience was, I was discouraged at the same time I was encouraged. I was discouraged because I feared Rev would go the way of so many other great technologies whose companies couldn't sustain them through slow-growth periods. I no longer worry much about that. I was encouraged because if only a small number of people "get" Rev, my competitive landscape is uncluttered and accessible. The same is true for AJAX except there's no need for a single company to be involved in any meaningful way. So if most of you on this list disagree with me and go on your merry way, that just means fewer competitors for those of us who do jump on the AJAX bandwagon while it is still moving slowly enough for us to stake out positions on its top level. -.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-. -.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.- Dan Shafer Technology Visionary - Technology Assessment - Documentation "Looking at technology from every angle" http://www.eclecticity.com ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: The Disappearing Desktop - It's Real This Time
I do not disagree, David. I don't necessarily think that either AJAX or RIAs in general need be confined to the existing standard browser. I mentioned specialized browsers specifically in my post. I just think these specialized browsers will be ultrathin, designed to facilitate access to the "application" (which I suspect quickly becomes a sort of outmoded notion as the lines blur) on the server or the grid. On Nov 10, 2005, at 3:21 AM, David Bovill wrote: standard HTML browser based thin clients - no. -.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-. -.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.- Dan Shafer Technology Visionary - Technology Assessment - Documentation "Looking at technology from every angle" http://www.eclecticity.com ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: The Disappearing Desktop - It's Real This Time
Thanks for the pointer, Xavier. Some cogent comments in amongst the usual /. chaff. Dan On Nov 10, 2005, at 12:05 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: fuel for the ajax fire ;) http://books.slashdot.org/books/05/11/09/1555231.shtml?tid=156&tid=6 i particularly liked the comment that said "Good Java programmers use Python"... ;) no talk of rev there though... But lots of worthy comments in the context... -=- Xavier Bury [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote on 10/11/2005 08:59:04: Chipp, Amen! Judy On Thu, 10 Nov 2005, Chipp Walters wrote: Programs like Claris Impact, Claris CAD, MORE, the old versions of Flash which were easy to script, MacWrite, MacPaint and MacDraw. Some of these STILL have no equal (imo, mostly thanks to the illegal efforts of MS). That's where one finds productivity gains, in the software and what it can do, not in whether it runs in a browser or on the desktop. ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution - To make communications with Clearstream easier, Clearstream has recently changed the email address format to conform with industry standards. The new format is '[EMAIL PROTECTED]'. Visit us at http://www.clearstream.com IMPORTANT MESSAGE Internet communications are not secure and therefore Clearstream International does not accept legal responsibility for the contents of this message. The information contained in this e-mail is confidential and may be legally privileged. It is intended solely for the addressee. If you are not the intended recipient, any disclosure, copying, distribution or any action taken or omitted to be taken in reliance on it, is prohibited and may be unlawful. Any views expressed in this e-mail are those of the individual sender, except where the sender specifically states them to be the views of Clearstream International or of any of its affiliates or subsidiaries. END OF DISCLAIMER ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Find the item a user clicked on...
Thanks. Fixed. Dan On Nov 9, 2005, at 8:13 PM, MisterX wrote: Hi Dan The link in the article http://www.scriptiong.com is not working cheers Xavier -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Dan Shafer Sent: Thursday, November 10, 2005 00:42 To: How to use Revolution Subject: Re: Find the item a user clicked on... It's not on my site. I'm just one of the Rev guys hanging out here. Chipp Walters did this cool plugin. You can find a link to it at: http://www.altuit.com/webs/altuit2/altPluginCover/about.htm Once there, click on the "Download Plugins" link in the left column and follow the directions. altFldHeader is most of the way down the page where the plugins are listed. On Nov 9, 2005, at 3:08 PM, Ton Kuypers wrote: Dan, I'd love to try it, but where can I find it on your site? greetings, Ton On 9-nov-05, at 23:30, Dan Shafer wrote: Or you could use Altuit's wonderful altFieldHeader plugin (http:// www.altuit.com) which automates this whole process quite neatly. On Nov 9, 2005, at 1:29 PM, Eric Chatonet wrote: Hi Ton, If I understand correctly: Your headers are the first line of your field and not buttons or something else placed above the field? If it's the case, you can: 1. Set the style of each header to "link" 2. Set the underlineLinks property of your stack to false 3. Set the different link colors in an appropriate way if needed Then the kinks do not appear but do exist and you just need: on linkClicked pLink end linkClicked pLink mirrors always the complete header. Not sure that is exactly your problem ;-) Best Regards from Paris, Eric Chatonet. Le 9 nov. 05 à 21:25, Ton Kuypers a écrit : I have a small problem, which probably someone has solved a long time ago... I have a header above a field with columns of data. The amount of columns are different each time, the header above the field will differ also each time. I now would like to sort the items in the field, when a user clicks on one of the words in the header, but how do I know what item the user clicked on? I only get the ClickChunk or the ClickText, but who has a clever routine to get the item a user clicked on? The titles in the header are separated by tabs and can consist of more then one word each. Any help is welcome :-) Warm regards, So Smart Software For institutions, companies and associations Built-to-order applications: management, multimedia, internet, etc. Windows, Mac OS and Linux... With the French touch Free plugins and tutorials on my website Web sitehttp://www.sosmartsoftware.com/ Email[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ Phone33 (0)1 43 31 77 62 Mobile33 (0)6 20 74 50 86 ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ~~~~~~ Dan Shafer, Information Product Consultant and Author http://www.shafermedia.com Get my book, "Revolution: Software at the Speed of Thought" From http://www.shafermediastore.com/tech_main.html ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ~~ Dan Shafer, Information Product Consultant and Author http://www.shafermedia.com Get my book, "Revolution: Software at the Speed of Thought" From http://www.shafermediastore.com/tech_main.html ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: The Disappearing Desktop - It's Real This Time
ay, though, I am not so much defending AJAX (which hardly needs or benefits from my defense of it) as I am trying to point out the absolute inevitability of this new trend becoming dominant. It has too many things going *for* it and the objections are all subject to technological solutions and therefore they will be solved. You get out in front of the curve or you find yourself relegated to a space where new development is lagging the rest of the market. -.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-. -.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.- Dan Shafer Technology Visionary - Technology Assessment - Documentation "Looking at technology from every angle" http://www.eclecticity.com ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: The Disappearing Desktop - It's Real This Time
Richard You said, quoting from your wonderful "Beyond the Browser" piece: "Many articles have been published extolling the virtues of Browser-based applications, but few (if any) of these were written in one...” Beg to differ. The Winer blog post that released these articles, the blog post that I found that pointed me to them and my blog post were all written in a browser-based application. And if you haven't yet seen Writely, I suggest you check it out; the day of the service- based word processor is soon to be here. On Nov 9, 2005, at 3:50 PM, Richard Gaskin wrote: As long as folks use local data, there will be desktop apps. There is no necessary connection between where data is and where the app is. That's just today's temporary model. -.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-. -.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.- Dan Shafer Technology Visionary - Technology Assessment - Documentation "Looking at technology from every angle" http://www.eclecticity.com ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: The Disappearing Desktop - It's Real This Time
The fact that one such effort failed -- or even that a bunch of such efforts failed -- is irrelevant in the face of the new market realities. Particularly the ad supported software model is one that I think has a tremendous amount of potential to be disruptive. Some people may well want to continue to pay premium prices for software so that they can keep their data on their local drives, but: (a) those people will eventually have to give way to the market forces if for no other reason than that all the software publishers head over there; and (b) there really needn't be a connection between where the software is and where the data is unless the user wants such a connection. The success of products like Hotmail and GMail (among others) paves the way for this new reality. I know there are a lot of folks who think I'm all wet here. It's OK. I'm sticking with my analysis. Dan On Nov 9, 2005, at 4:00 PM, Brian Maher wrote: Dan, The company I work for tried this model (application service provider .. i.e. you rent the software) and it did not work well at all. The simple fact is that people will always want to "own" both their data and the app that manipulates it. Will some people use this? Yes. Will most use it? No. Personally, I see the world eventually moving to more desktop apps which use the internet (specifically http/htttps) as a transport protocol for data (think desktop app that talks http/htttps to apache which in turn invokes the requested cgi/servlet to process the sent data and send back a response). Brian ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Find the item a user clicked on...
It's not on my site. I'm just one of the Rev guys hanging out here. Chipp Walters did this cool plugin. You can find a link to it at: http://www.altuit.com/webs/altuit2/altPluginCover/about.htm Once there, click on the "Download Plugins" link in the left column and follow the directions. altFldHeader is most of the way down the page where the plugins are listed. On Nov 9, 2005, at 3:08 PM, Ton Kuypers wrote: Dan, I'd love to try it, but where can I find it on your site? greetings, Ton On 9-nov-05, at 23:30, Dan Shafer wrote: Or you could use Altuit's wonderful altFieldHeader plugin (http:// www.altuit.com) which automates this whole process quite neatly. On Nov 9, 2005, at 1:29 PM, Eric Chatonet wrote: Hi Ton, If I understand correctly: Your headers are the first line of your field and not buttons or something else placed above the field? If it's the case, you can: 1. Set the style of each header to "link" 2. Set the underlineLinks property of your stack to false 3. Set the different link colors in an appropriate way if needed Then the kinks do not appear but do exist and you just need: on linkClicked pLink end linkClicked pLink mirrors always the complete header. Not sure that is exactly your problem ;-) Best Regards from Paris, Eric Chatonet. Le 9 nov. 05 à 21:25, Ton Kuypers a écrit : I have a small problem, which probably someone has solved a long time ago... I have a header above a field with columns of data. The amount of columns are different each time, the header above the field will differ also each time. I now would like to sort the items in the field, when a user clicks on one of the words in the header, but how do I know what item the user clicked on? I only get the ClickChunk or the ClickText, but who has a clever routine to get the item a user clicked on? The titles in the header are separated by tabs and can consist of more then one word each. Any help is welcome :-) Warm regards, So Smart Software For institutions, companies and associations Built-to-order applications: management, multimedia, internet, etc. Windows, Mac OS and Linux... With the French touch Free plugins and tutorials on my website Web sitehttp://www.sosmartsoftware.com/ Email[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ Phone33 (0)1 43 31 77 62 Mobile33 (0)6 20 74 50 86 ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ~~~~~~ Dan Shafer, Information Product Consultant and Author http://www.shafermedia.com Get my book, "Revolution: Software at the Speed of Thought" From http://www.shafermediastore.com/tech_main.html ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ~~ Dan Shafer, Information Product Consultant and Author http://www.shafermedia.com Get my book, "Revolution: Software at the Speed of Thought" From http://www.shafermediastore.com/tech_main.html ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
