Re: Nice job on keeping the download site up-to-date.
Yes we live in the IT bizness, I"m there for 25 years now, and I have seen so much already. Before working in the IT bizness I worked almost 10 years in very various other kinds, so I have a small experience of the world out there. What would be a working life in other bizness areas is 5 years here. Also I remember speaking with Andrew Sykes, 4 years ago. He was a musician one upon his life, almost professional, I too (I used to be a drummer, far to be a pro though ;). We agreed that music is great but everyday exercices to keep the level is boring. IT is not: it always surprises you, that's why I still enjoy this job, I love to be surprised, after all, is it not what life is all about, who likes to be bored? OK enough of socialization attempts (it comes certainly from social isolation while working alone, almost at home...) Jacques From: "Tim Ruppert" +1 - OS Commerce has a huge install base, but they are quickly migrating away. Cheers, Ruppert On Feb 6, 2010, at 9:02 AM, Jacques Le Roux wrote: Ruth, I bet OS Commerce will sink quickly because of Magento. We don't care about legacy... OS Commerce is already history... Jacques From: "Ruth Hoffman" Hi Jacques: The fact remains that OS Commerce has a huge installed base and has a long way to fall before it passes OFBiz on the way down. Regards, Ruth Jacques Le Roux wrote: This is so true (could be a testmonial on the corresponding wiki page, though business level is required ;o), but to grow faster we must convince PHBs not devs :/ On the other hand I believe that growing faster is not the right way to think (look at what is happening to our world). Because I agree with your arguments, I believe that when some other current "competitors" will have disappeared (look at what is happenning to OS Commerce, if we could see it as a competitor) OFBiz will still be there! Jacques From: "Milind Parikh" ok.. here's my two cents... OfBiz is too complicated for the noobs. Ofbiz is an extremely powerful framework. But with power comes responsibility. You should be expected to spend 200-400 hours in understanding ofBiz., Anyone who has dealt with commercial ERP (some of my "favorite" vendors come to mind) would tell you that this is a awesome deal. Let me not even mention what the other "vendors" make you go through. Newbies (as opposed to noobs) will figure it out. ok.. a link is missing here and there..so what ? Build a distribution of oFbiz on AWS or something and then you won't need to rely on this infrastructure; if that is your pain (it certainly is NOT mine). I believe that ofbiz is much better than the rest of the open source erps. It is a lot easier to integrate and has a well thought out framework. Regards -- Milind On Fri, Feb 5, 2010 at 1:40 PM, Matt Warnock wrote: My understanding is that the whole site has just changed hosting. A few broken links are to be expected. Doesn't mean no one is minding the store-- there is a lot to be done and a few things may be discovered as we go along. The primary business is always developing the system-- the website that demonstrates and documents the system is ancillary. Kind of like chewing Linus out because kernel.org has an outage or a broken link when changing hosting companies. 1) It isn't his main job (maybe not even a little bit). 2) Nothing is perfect, especially when a major change is underway. 3) How is someone going to know unless they are told exactly what the problem is? Developers are mostly using svn to update, I'd bet. So a broken download link would only be apparent to others (mostly first-time users, as you say). Logs might mention it, but I don't know anyone that reads them daily, do you? Automated log analyzers might help here to report broken links that developers don't often see. So let's view this as an opportunity to improve ancillary parts of the system, which are also important in that newbies see them first. On Fri, 2010-02-05 at 13:11 -0500, Ruth Hoffman wrote: > Hi Jacques: > That would be really nice, but I'm not even at that stage yet. > > My problem is with the download web page. There has been a major > regression here and no one has said a word (until me, right now) about > it. That leads me to say: "Who is minding the store?". This is the > second or third thing anyone interested in OFBiz sees...after the splash > page. > > It's a mess of "stuff" that no one in their "right" (or "left") mind > would bother to spend too much time trying to decipher. Worst case: A > prospective user leaves the site (with a slight hint suggesting that > maybe the code is as disorganized as the web page) and downloads some > other project's code. Bye-bye prospect. Wouldn't touch it with a 10 foot > pole. > > Best case: A prospect user will end up downloading the trunk code, > because, on this web page, all roads lead to a trunk download. Then, > well how much fun is that going to be for a new user who doesn't have a > clue where to start? Bye-bye prosp
Re: Nice job on keeping the download site up-to-date.
+1 - OS Commerce has a huge install base, but they are quickly migrating away. Cheers, Ruppert On Feb 6, 2010, at 9:02 AM, Jacques Le Roux wrote: > Ruth, > > I bet OS Commerce will sink quickly because of Magento. We don't care about > legacy... OS Commerce is already history... > > Jacques > > From: "Ruth Hoffman" >> Hi Jacques: >> The fact remains that OS Commerce has a huge installed base and has a long >> way to fall before it passes OFBiz on the way down. >> Regards, >> Ruth >> Jacques Le Roux wrote: >>> This is so true (could be a testmonial on the corresponding wiki page, >>> though business level is required ;o), >>> but to grow faster we must convince PHBs not devs :/ >>> >>> On the other hand I believe that growing faster is not the right way to >>> think (look at what is happening to our world). Because I agree with your >>> arguments, I believe that when some other current "competitors" will have >>> disappeared (look at what is happenning to OS Commerce, if we could see it >>> as a competitor) OFBiz will still be there! >>> >>> >>> Jacques >>> >>> From: "Milind Parikh" ok.. here's my two cents... OfBiz is too complicated for the noobs. Ofbiz is an extremely powerful framework. But with power comes responsibility. You should be expected to spend 200-400 hours in understanding ofBiz., Anyone who has dealt with commercial ERP (some of my "favorite" vendors come to mind) would tell you that this is a awesome deal. Let me not even mention what the other "vendors" make you go through. Newbies (as opposed to noobs) will figure it out. ok.. a link is missing here and there..so what ? Build a distribution of oFbiz on AWS or something and then you won't need to rely on this infrastructure; if that is your pain (it certainly is NOT mine). I believe that ofbiz is much better than the rest of the open source erps. It is a lot easier to integrate and has a well thought out framework. Regards -- Milind On Fri, Feb 5, 2010 at 1:40 PM, Matt Warnock wrote: > My understanding is that the whole site has just changed hosting. A few > broken links are to be expected. Doesn't mean no one is minding the > store-- there is a lot to be done and a few things may be discovered as > we go along. > > The primary business is always developing the system-- the website that > demonstrates and documents the system is ancillary. Kind of like > chewing Linus out because kernel.org has an outage or a broken link when > changing hosting companies. 1) It isn't his main job (maybe not even a > little bit). 2) Nothing is perfect, especially when a major change is > underway. 3) How is someone going to know unless they are told exactly > what the problem is? > > Developers are mostly using svn to update, I'd bet. So a broken > download link would only be apparent to others (mostly first-time users, > as you say). Logs might mention it, but I don't know anyone that reads > them daily, do you? Automated log analyzers might help here to report > broken links that developers don't often see. So let's view this as an > opportunity to improve ancillary parts of the system, which are also > important in that newbies see them first. > > > On Fri, 2010-02-05 at 13:11 -0500, Ruth Hoffman wrote: > > Hi Jacques: > > That would be really nice, but I'm not even at that stage yet. > > > > My problem is with the download web page. There has been a major > > regression here and no one has said a word (until me, right now) about > > it. That leads me to say: "Who is minding the store?". This is the > > second or third thing anyone interested in OFBiz sees...after the splash > > page. > > > > It's a mess of "stuff" that no one in their "right" (or "left") mind > > would bother to spend too much time trying to decipher. Worst case: A > > prospective user leaves the site (with a slight hint suggesting that > > maybe the code is as disorganized as the web page) and downloads some > > other project's code. Bye-bye prospect. Wouldn't touch it with a 10 foot > > pole. > > > > Best case: A prospect user will end up downloading the trunk code, > > because, on this web page, all roads lead to a trunk download. Then, > > well how much fun is that going to be for a new user who doesn't have a > > clue where to start? Bye-bye prospect. I tried, but code isn't stable > > enough for my tastes. > > > > And some wonder why there isn't more OFBiz activity out there. Well, I > > for one am pretty sure I know why. > > > > Regards, > > Ruth > > > > Jacques Le Roux wrote: > > > Some ASF projects are very sucessful yet with strong competition, for > > > instance ServiceMix vs Mule, Geronimo, v
Re: Nice job on keeping the download site up-to-date.
Ruth, I bet OS Commerce will sink quickly because of Magento. We don't care about legacy... OS Commerce is already history... Jacques From: "Ruth Hoffman" Hi Jacques: The fact remains that OS Commerce has a huge installed base and has a long way to fall before it passes OFBiz on the way down. Regards, Ruth Jacques Le Roux wrote: This is so true (could be a testmonial on the corresponding wiki page, though business level is required ;o), but to grow faster we must convince PHBs not devs :/ On the other hand I believe that growing faster is not the right way to think (look at what is happening to our world). Because I agree with your arguments, I believe that when some other current "competitors" will have disappeared (look at what is happenning to OS Commerce, if we could see it as a competitor) OFBiz will still be there! Jacques From: "Milind Parikh" ok.. here's my two cents... OfBiz is too complicated for the noobs. Ofbiz is an extremely powerful framework. But with power comes responsibility. You should be expected to spend 200-400 hours in understanding ofBiz., Anyone who has dealt with commercial ERP (some of my "favorite" vendors come to mind) would tell you that this is a awesome deal. Let me not even mention what the other "vendors" make you go through. Newbies (as opposed to noobs) will figure it out. ok.. a link is missing here and there..so what ? Build a distribution of oFbiz on AWS or something and then you won't need to rely on this infrastructure; if that is your pain (it certainly is NOT mine). I believe that ofbiz is much better than the rest of the open source erps. It is a lot easier to integrate and has a well thought out framework. Regards -- Milind On Fri, Feb 5, 2010 at 1:40 PM, Matt Warnock wrote: My understanding is that the whole site has just changed hosting. A few broken links are to be expected. Doesn't mean no one is minding the store-- there is a lot to be done and a few things may be discovered as we go along. The primary business is always developing the system-- the website that demonstrates and documents the system is ancillary. Kind of like chewing Linus out because kernel.org has an outage or a broken link when changing hosting companies. 1) It isn't his main job (maybe not even a little bit). 2) Nothing is perfect, especially when a major change is underway. 3) How is someone going to know unless they are told exactly what the problem is? Developers are mostly using svn to update, I'd bet. So a broken download link would only be apparent to others (mostly first-time users, as you say). Logs might mention it, but I don't know anyone that reads them daily, do you? Automated log analyzers might help here to report broken links that developers don't often see. So let's view this as an opportunity to improve ancillary parts of the system, which are also important in that newbies see them first. On Fri, 2010-02-05 at 13:11 -0500, Ruth Hoffman wrote: > Hi Jacques: > That would be really nice, but I'm not even at that stage yet. > > My problem is with the download web page. There has been a major > regression here and no one has said a word (until me, right now) about > it. That leads me to say: "Who is minding the store?". This is the > second or third thing anyone interested in OFBiz sees...after the splash > page. > > It's a mess of "stuff" that no one in their "right" (or "left") mind > would bother to spend too much time trying to decipher. Worst case: A > prospective user leaves the site (with a slight hint suggesting that > maybe the code is as disorganized as the web page) and downloads some > other project's code. Bye-bye prospect. Wouldn't touch it with a 10 foot > pole. > > Best case: A prospect user will end up downloading the trunk code, > because, on this web page, all roads lead to a trunk download. Then, > well how much fun is that going to be for a new user who doesn't have a > clue where to start? Bye-bye prospect. I tried, but code isn't stable > enough for my tastes. > > And some wonder why there isn't more OFBiz activity out there. Well, I > for one am pretty sure I know why. > > Regards, > Ruth > > Jacques Le Roux wrote: > > Some ASF projects are very sucessful yet with strong competition, for > > instance ServiceMix vs Mule, Geronimo, vs..., etc. > > We may mimic some of the ways they are doing things. For instance, > > some time ago Chris Snow asked for a better SEO, I'm not quite sure > > but I think it'a about exporting the wiki and make Google (and other > > SEs) knows about it... > > > > Jacques > > > > From: "Tim Ruppert" > > Ruth, I'm sure there's some good that could come out of your message - > > so against my general nature of responding to this type of attitude, > > I'm going to try and help you phrase this in a way that will help us > > help infra to try to meet what you're looking for. Here's what I see > > when I go to the site(s): > > > > http://ci.apache.org/
Re: What I would like to see [was: Re: Nice job on keeping the download site up-to-date.]
From: "David E Jones" On Feb 5, 2010, at 3:24 PM, Jacques Le Roux wrote: One feeling I have though, PHBs are often pushing this way, note that I did not say that you are a PHB :p Actually, I agree with you about "our" lack of interest for end user. I think this is due to the nature of OFBiz itself... I won't agree there is any lack of interest for end-users. In fact, nearly everything in OFBiz is the result of some end-user or other requesting functionality and being willing to sponsor its creation and contribution back to the project. That's not exactly what I meant. Who are those end-users I was trying to talk about? Technical aware persons, with influence in companies but not enough time to look into every technical details (CTO, CIO, etc.). So they make (or at least help to make) very important decisions (financial decision, I mean) for the future of their entreprises. And for that try to get as much as possible information when making a choice between competitors. It's already a good news when they are considering OSS. Then chances are they will compare projects. This is the target I was talking about. I personnaly think that a *huge* effort as been already done in OFBIz to give them ways to make their choice. I was simply saying that we should try to continue this effort. Not only some persons as it was some years ago, when the knowledge was not as shared as today. For instance the effort you made, David, on the Framework *open and (now) free* documentation was certainly one the most important the project benefited. But I'm not quite sure (euphemism ;o) all the decision-makers (or helpers) take the time to read it thourougly and to understand all subtleties while evaluating OFBiz. So now, what we need is a satellite map (kind of marketing) to facilitate the decisions of these guys and, as much as possible, to make them happy to choice OFBiz :o) Some themes I foresee: 1) Why you should use the trunk instead of a release, 2) Why OFBIz is here to stay, independtly of the people working currently on it 3) Why... ok I'm lazy today (actually more knackered but who cares ;o)... The theme 1 is one of the most important to me because it distinguishs OFBiz from its competitors, even VAR projects based on OFBiz. It allows to follow the projects and, if inclined to, to contribute to it and to make it grow along your own needs. When you Google for "OFBiz" in France you get these pages in this order http://ofbiz.apache.org/ http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apache_OFBiz http://www.les7arts.com/assist/ArgumentaireOFBiz.htm The 1st is obvious, the 2d I frequently garden and I'm happy to see it there, the 3d was a page I wrote in 2005, and is a free translation (with a lot of changes and adaptation through the years) from an old Automation Group site page. Something is missing in this document, the point 1. It's now months that I want to write something about that. Because I believe it's why so much projects based on OFBiz did not evolve with OFBiz and became legacy. This is bad for 2 reasons: these projects will not benefit of all the enhancements OFBiz is able to give them, OFBiz does not benefit of potential long term contributors. From my experience, few projects succeed in this way (even VAR projects) because they neglict this paramount point! There are already a lot of things spreaded in the wiki. I will try, when I will get a chance, to make something more comprehensible for new comers (I prefer this word than newbies or even worse noobs ;o) Sorry for he long post, I have this in mind for a long time... Jacques
Re: Nice job on keeping the download site up-to-date.
Hi Jacques: The fact remains that OS Commerce has a huge installed base and has a long way to fall before it passes OFBiz on the way down. Regards, Ruth Jacques Le Roux wrote: This is so true (could be a testmonial on the corresponding wiki page, though business level is required ;o), but to grow faster we must convince PHBs not devs :/ On the other hand I believe that growing faster is not the right way to think (look at what is happening to our world). Because I agree with your arguments, I believe that when some other current "competitors" will have disappeared (look at what is happenning to OS Commerce, if we could see it as a competitor) OFBiz will still be there! Jacques From: "Milind Parikh" ok.. here's my two cents... OfBiz is too complicated for the noobs. Ofbiz is an extremely powerful framework. But with power comes responsibility. You should be expected to spend 200-400 hours in understanding ofBiz., Anyone who has dealt with commercial ERP (some of my "favorite" vendors come to mind) would tell you that this is a awesome deal. Let me not even mention what the other "vendors" make you go through. Newbies (as opposed to noobs) will figure it out. ok.. a link is missing here and there..so what ? Build a distribution of oFbiz on AWS or something and then you won't need to rely on this infrastructure; if that is your pain (it certainly is NOT mine). I believe that ofbiz is much better than the rest of the open source erps. It is a lot easier to integrate and has a well thought out framework. Regards -- Milind On Fri, Feb 5, 2010 at 1:40 PM, Matt Warnock wrote: My understanding is that the whole site has just changed hosting. A few broken links are to be expected. Doesn't mean no one is minding the store-- there is a lot to be done and a few things may be discovered as we go along. The primary business is always developing the system-- the website that demonstrates and documents the system is ancillary. Kind of like chewing Linus out because kernel.org has an outage or a broken link when changing hosting companies. 1) It isn't his main job (maybe not even a little bit). 2) Nothing is perfect, especially when a major change is underway. 3) How is someone going to know unless they are told exactly what the problem is? Developers are mostly using svn to update, I'd bet. So a broken download link would only be apparent to others (mostly first-time users, as you say). Logs might mention it, but I don't know anyone that reads them daily, do you? Automated log analyzers might help here to report broken links that developers don't often see. So let's view this as an opportunity to improve ancillary parts of the system, which are also important in that newbies see them first. On Fri, 2010-02-05 at 13:11 -0500, Ruth Hoffman wrote: > Hi Jacques: > That would be really nice, but I'm not even at that stage yet. > > My problem is with the download web page. There has been a major > regression here and no one has said a word (until me, right now) about > it. That leads me to say: "Who is minding the store?". This is the > second or third thing anyone interested in OFBiz sees...after the splash > page. > > It's a mess of "stuff" that no one in their "right" (or "left") mind > would bother to spend too much time trying to decipher. Worst case: A > prospective user leaves the site (with a slight hint suggesting that > maybe the code is as disorganized as the web page) and downloads some > other project's code. Bye-bye prospect. Wouldn't touch it with a 10 foot > pole. > > Best case: A prospect user will end up downloading the trunk code, > because, on this web page, all roads lead to a trunk download. Then, > well how much fun is that going to be for a new user who doesn't have a > clue where to start? Bye-bye prospect. I tried, but code isn't stable > enough for my tastes. > > And some wonder why there isn't more OFBiz activity out there. Well, I > for one am pretty sure I know why. > > Regards, > Ruth > > Jacques Le Roux wrote: > > Some ASF projects are very sucessful yet with strong competition, for > > instance ServiceMix vs Mule, Geronimo, vs..., etc. > > We may mimic some of the ways they are doing things. For instance, > > some time ago Chris Snow asked for a better SEO, I'm not quite sure > > but I think it'a about exporting the wiki and make Google (and other > > SEs) knows about it... > > > > Jacques > > > > From: "Tim Ruppert" > > Ruth, I'm sure there's some good that could come out of your message - > > so against my general nature of responding to this type of attitude, > > I'm going to try and help you phrase this in a way that will help us > > help infra to try to meet what you're looking for. Here's what I see > > when I go to the site(s): > > > > http://ci.apache.org/projects/ofbiz/snapshots/ - not downloading and > > testing anything - just looking at what I see: > > > > 1. The nightly trunk seems to be updated daily. > >
Re: New vision [was Re: Nice job on keeping the download site up-to-date.]
Really refreshing, thanks Matt! Jacques From: "Matt Warnock" On Fri, 2010-02-05 at 17:12 -0500, Ruth Hoffman wrote: Hi Matt: Thanks for your input. I'm always open to rebuke. Wasn't intended as rebuke, just (hopefully) helpful observation. We all can use those, I think. I take issue with one thing you said: "The primary business is always developing the system". IMO, "developing the system" does not always mean adding code to the project at the expense of some very basic business related tasks. Committers on this project, are always being taken to task for not tying up loose ends (my reference to how Java code is formatted, for example). Why shouldn't the project be held responsible for work effort around the infrastructure. This is like saying that as a committer, you only need take responsibility's for those things that you choose to care about. Ah, but that's just it-- You can't "hold people responsible" in a volunteer organization. What ya gonna do, fire 'em? In an ideal world, a volunteer would do the whole job, not just their favorite parts. We'd get good code AND good documentation. But in the Real World(TM), skills differ. Though I CAN do both, I am a much better writer than a coder, and I have the good sense to know it. And as a newbie, I am too low on the learning curve to do much more than make (hopefully) helpful suggestions as I fight my way through. And as an old French saying goes, "you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar". If you want to catch flies, that is. :) I wish I could fix this. Heaven knows I've tried but I'm not a committer. I've been through this with the project "foxes" several times already. And here's my point: IMO, It is the project's "main" job to see that things are put in place to preserve the project. And maybe that is where we all differ. I say if you are a committer, then you need to take full responsibility for the project and not just those things you find "interesting" or "exciting". In "The Mythical Man-Month", I think, the author said that managing programmers was like trying to herd cats. Managing volunteer programmers, then, is like trying to herd birds. Not only are they (like cats) not herd animals, but they are not even limited to our herding plane, and since we don't pay them, they are in no way subject to our will. So if you want to "fix this", all I can say is, good luck with that. Being a committer won't help. But we can still feed the birds, and enjoy their products, and hopefully not be the statues on which they perch. :) (No analogy is perfect.) We have gone from "foxes" guarding the chicken coop to no one guarding the chicken coop. I'm not rolling my eyes anymore. I'm just smiling because now there is more opportunity for me to help people figure out how to use OFBiz. Just hope they don't get too scared away before they find me on the web. Not sure who the "foxes" are, or how they relate to the chicken coop (back to birds again). I doubt anyone wants to hurt OFBiz, they just have different views of what is the *MOST* important thing that *THEY* can do right *NOW* to advance it. That is both natural and healthy, and the reason that, over time, free enterprise almost always works better than planned economies. Your "best" or "easiest" solution will not be mine and vice versa, and one size never fits all perfectly, but one may be a better approximation than another in a particular case, or even for most cases. Reasonable minds can and do differ and even disagree. And so I propose Warnock's Razor (a corollary to Hanlon's): "Never ascribe to ignorance or stupidity that which is adequately explained by a different life experience and point of view". Or to put it more succinctly: "Counterview before Cock-up". And in FOSS, that is even more true-- everyone scratches their own itch first. I agree with you that there is a problem here in the OFBiz community, but I think it is cultural, not technical or administrative. I think there needs to be more grateful abundance (less scarcity) mentality, more positive (less negative) energy, and more volunteerism (less criticism). But (I hope) this feeling is more than just me saying "Can't we all just get along." More importantly, I think a change in the collective vision can put more money in all our pockets. This can be accomplished by focusing more energy on reducing, where possible, the learning curve, so that more people can get more real work done faster, thus freeing us all from the limits of 80/20 rule. Silverston posits, I think correctly, that 80% of all businesses operations are generally the same, being more or less "standard" or non-unique aspects of business in general. That standard 80% is NOT what generates the real profits. Using the 80/20 rule, that standard 80% of the business generates only 20% of the profits, while the other 20% (the unique part) drives 80% of the profits. As a business person, I can't afford to ignore t
Re: Nice job on keeping the download site up-to-date.
This is so true (could be a testmonial on the corresponding wiki page, though business level is required ;o), but to grow faster we must convince PHBs not devs :/ On the other hand I believe that growing faster is not the right way to think (look at what is happening to our world). Because I agree with your arguments, I believe that when some other current "competitors" will have disappeared (look at what is happenning to OS Commerce, if we could see it as a competitor) OFBiz will still be there! Jacques From: "Milind Parikh" ok.. here's my two cents... OfBiz is too complicated for the noobs. Ofbiz is an extremely powerful framework. But with power comes responsibility. You should be expected to spend 200-400 hours in understanding ofBiz., Anyone who has dealt with commercial ERP (some of my "favorite" vendors come to mind) would tell you that this is a awesome deal. Let me not even mention what the other "vendors" make you go through. Newbies (as opposed to noobs) will figure it out. ok.. a link is missing here and there..so what ? Build a distribution of oFbiz on AWS or something and then you won't need to rely on this infrastructure; if that is your pain (it certainly is NOT mine). I believe that ofbiz is much better than the rest of the open source erps. It is a lot easier to integrate and has a well thought out framework. Regards -- Milind On Fri, Feb 5, 2010 at 1:40 PM, Matt Warnock wrote: My understanding is that the whole site has just changed hosting. A few broken links are to be expected. Doesn't mean no one is minding the store-- there is a lot to be done and a few things may be discovered as we go along. The primary business is always developing the system-- the website that demonstrates and documents the system is ancillary. Kind of like chewing Linus out because kernel.org has an outage or a broken link when changing hosting companies. 1) It isn't his main job (maybe not even a little bit). 2) Nothing is perfect, especially when a major change is underway. 3) How is someone going to know unless they are told exactly what the problem is? Developers are mostly using svn to update, I'd bet. So a broken download link would only be apparent to others (mostly first-time users, as you say). Logs might mention it, but I don't know anyone that reads them daily, do you? Automated log analyzers might help here to report broken links that developers don't often see. So let's view this as an opportunity to improve ancillary parts of the system, which are also important in that newbies see them first. On Fri, 2010-02-05 at 13:11 -0500, Ruth Hoffman wrote: > Hi Jacques: > That would be really nice, but I'm not even at that stage yet. > > My problem is with the download web page. There has been a major > regression here and no one has said a word (until me, right now) about > it. That leads me to say: "Who is minding the store?". This is the > second or third thing anyone interested in OFBiz sees...after the splash > page. > > It's a mess of "stuff" that no one in their "right" (or "left") mind > would bother to spend too much time trying to decipher. Worst case: A > prospective user leaves the site (with a slight hint suggesting that > maybe the code is as disorganized as the web page) and downloads some > other project's code. Bye-bye prospect. Wouldn't touch it with a 10 foot > pole. > > Best case: A prospect user will end up downloading the trunk code, > because, on this web page, all roads lead to a trunk download. Then, > well how much fun is that going to be for a new user who doesn't have a > clue where to start? Bye-bye prospect. I tried, but code isn't stable > enough for my tastes. > > And some wonder why there isn't more OFBiz activity out there. Well, I > for one am pretty sure I know why. > > Regards, > Ruth > > Jacques Le Roux wrote: > > Some ASF projects are very sucessful yet with strong competition, for > > instance ServiceMix vs Mule, Geronimo, vs..., etc. > > We may mimic some of the ways they are doing things. For instance, > > some time ago Chris Snow asked for a better SEO, I'm not quite sure > > but I think it'a about exporting the wiki and make Google (and other > > SEs) knows about it... > > > > Jacques > > > > From: "Tim Ruppert" > > Ruth, I'm sure there's some good that could come out of your message - > > so against my general nature of responding to this type of attitude, > > I'm going to try and help you phrase this in a way that will help us > > help infra to try to meet what you're looking for. Here's what I see > > when I go to the site(s): > > > > http://ci.apache.org/projects/ofbiz/snapshots/ - not downloading and > > testing anything - just looking at what I see: > > > > 1. The nightly trunk seems to be updated daily. > > 2. The 9.04 builds seem to, for some reason not be being updated on > > this page. > > 3. There aren't many 4.0 releases being built. > > > > Then I go to here - > > http://ci.apache.org/projects/ofbiz/archive/snapshot
Re: What I would like to see [was: Re: Nice job on keeping the download site up-to-date.]
--- On Sat, 2/6/10, Matt Warnock wrote: > What is OFBiz > ERP basics > Open Source/Apache License > Capabilities (as of now) > Who is using OFBiz, and how > Websites based on OFBiz (production > use) > OFBiz demo sites > VAR products (OpenTaps, Neogia, etc) > Getting OFBiz > System requirements > OFBiz versions and methods (svn vs > http) > Download current/archives > Installation (and ./ant target options) > Customizing > Updates and upgrades > Using OFBiz > Manager evaluation/planning manual > Administrator implementation/operation > manual > User operation manual > Developer reference manual > Training videos > Customizing for industry, best > practices > ecommerce, services, > manufacturing, distributing etc > Getting help > FAQ > Wiki > Mailing lists & archives > IRC channels > Resources > Search documentation > Data model background > Universal data modeling > Parties and Party Groups, contact info, > etc > Users, authentication and > authorization/permissions > Stores, catalogs, virtual & variant > products > etc > Developing in OFBiz > Code organization > Entity engine > MCV model > Screen design > CRUD operations > Code style guidelines > Code validation and testing > OFBiz Project > Credits > Version history > Known bugs > To-do list > Future plans > OFBiz resources and news > Recent news > Websites & blogs > books, articles, presentations > Hosting, developers, consultants This is very close to what I imagined as a good start. There is only one thing I would add: OFBiz New Users Start Here ...
Re: What I would like to see [was: Re: Nice job on keeping the download site up-to-date.]
On Fri, 2010-02-05 at 18:21 -0700, Tim Ruppert wrote: > What I'm looking for are actual examples and thought put in to _how_ I > can help design and bring to fruition the type of snapshot website > that you would be stoked about. As I said earlier, even examples of > someone else doing it really well is out there. What you've written > below is really general and doesn't make much sense to me I can't look at the snapshot web page separately from the rest. For me, the biggest issue is that there is a lot of stuff on the site in several formats, and it is hard to see where the various parts are, how they relate to each other, whether they are up to date, and where to start. Various elements have given me clues, but a 3-foot overview would be really nice. Much of this is that the site is obviously in transition. For example, most pages come up in a weird default Confluence format where the top level is in one list and the children are all lumped together in a second list under "Children". Clicking "view in hierarchy" puts things in the "normal" outline format, while "hide children" gives the "collapsed" view. This seems really awkward compared to the more conventional collapsible outline view: [+] This is a collapsed item with hidden children [-] This item has no hidden children [+] This is a collapsed child with children [-] This item has no children Why would you ever want all children lumped in a separate paragraph at the bottom and separated from their parents? And especially by default? If articles or pages are long, with complicated parents and children, then I'd suggest the Wikipedia convention of an outline at the top, so you can quickly get to what you want. I'm not a fan of left-nav, multicolumn layouts that render weirdly on cell-phones, PDAs, and netbooks, and never print as expected. So here is my ideal site map outline (from what I know today, which is admittedly really limited). These should NOT all be on the home page, but the 8 or so top-levels should all be reachable and at least somewhat described on that page. Each line probably deserves a page to itself. Downloads would be at second or third level (about where they are now). The object here is to get things into a comprehensible order, so that a new user has a way to get a handle on it and see how the various pieces fit together. I'm sure these could be refined and shortened. What is OFBiz ERP basics Open Source/Apache License Capabilities (as of now) Who is using OFBiz, and how Websites based on OFBiz (production use) OFBiz demo sites VAR products (OpenTaps, Neogia, etc) Getting OFBiz System requirements OFBiz versions and methods (svn vs http) Download current/archives Installation (and ./ant target options) Customizing Updates and upgrades Using OFBiz Manager evaluation/planning manual Administrator implementation/operation manual User operation manual Developer reference manual Training videos Customizing for industry, best practices ecommerce, services, manufacturing, distributing etc Getting help FAQ Wiki Mailing lists & archives IRC channels Resources Search documentation Data model background Universal data modeling Parties and Party Groups, contact info, etc Users, authentication and authorization/permissions Stores, catalogs, virtual & variant products etc Developing in OFBiz Code organization Entity engine MCV model Screen design CRUD operations Code style guidelines Code validation and testing OFBiz Project Credits Version history Known bugs To-do list Future plans OFBiz resources and news Recent news Websites & blogs books, articles, presentations Hosting, developers, consultants -- Matt Warnock RidgeCrest Herbals, Inc.
Re: What I would like to see [was: Re: Nice job on keeping the download site up-to-date.]
I've always thought the perl Mason site was pretty good. Simple, clean, easy to find stuff. A little intro on the front page, and well organized, easy to find links to the various areas. http://www.masonhq.com/ On Fri, 2010-02-05 at 18:21 -0700, Tim Ruppert wrote: > Well - I think what we went thru was the difference between targeting the > trunk and targeting the release branch - and we do still differ there in a > big way - so that's not what I want to talk about. What I'm looking for are > actual examples and thought put in to _how_ I can help design and bring to > fruition the type of snapshot website that you would be stoked about. As I > said earlier, even examples of someone else doing it really well is out > there. What you've written below is really general and doesn't make much > sense to me > > >>> I'd like to have a download site where any user, especially a new user, > >>> could visit, feel comfortable about the project (and life in general), > >>> and then proceed about the business of downloading code. Easy, simple and > >>> painless. > > I'm down to spend my time and my companies time in marketing OFBiz - (I think > I've proven that) - but I'd like a little guidance - at least in this > discussion - towards an example of doing it right. > > Cheers, > Ruppert > > On Feb 5, 2010, at 1:12 PM, Ruth Hoffman wrote: > > > Hi Tim: > > I'm a little surprised. I thought we went through this a while back (maybe > > a few months ago) and the answer was: "the site is targeted at project > > committers". I left that discussion with the impression that was the last > > word. Are you saying that you might be open to discussing this again? > > Regards, > > Ruth > > > > Tim Ruppert wrote: > >> Thanks for the feedback. I'm going to think on it this weekend and will > >> try and come up with some ideas of how this could work better. If you > >> could show me some sites that you do like, that would be a big help - then > >> I can see how to get that working in our world. > >> > >> Cheers, > >> Ruppert > >> > >> On Feb 5, 2010, at 12:13 PM, Ruth Hoffman wrote: > >> > >> > >>> Hi Tim: > >>> Since you asked: > >>> > >>> I'd like to have a download site where any user, especially a new user, > >>> could visit, feel comfortable about the project (and life in general), > >>> and then proceed about the business of downloading code. Easy, simple and > >>> painless. Yes, the nightly builds are a HUGE step in that direction. > >>> Thanks again to everyone who makes this possible. But, lets put that in > >>> perspective: That only makes the process of downloading easier. > >>> > >>> I'd also like to have a seat on the project's oversight group. I don't > >>> understand how a project of this magnitude can continue to grow and > >>> prosper without business oriented people helping to guide it. The > >>> oversight group (whoever they happen to be) is like a bunch of very > >>> clever "foxes" guarding the "chicken coop". (Where the "chicken coop" is > >>> the code base.) There is so much more to making software successful than > >>> anything clever "foxes" will ever have time to consider. > >>> > >>> Actually, I take that back. If I'm part of the committer's group, I > >>> won't be able to "whine" and "troll" from the comfort of my desktop > >>> anymore. > >>> > >>> Regards, > >>> Ruth > >>> > >>> > >>> Tim Ruppert wrote: > >>> > Thanks - again that was super helpful. I took the time to lay it out > like a towel what was there, what looks to be broken when we migrated to > the ASF infra and no you wont' go thru it? There are some obvious spots > for you to say something or point to projects you like, but you just > continue to roll your eyes. I didn't push for or want this move to the > ASF infra - but I'm still trying to help here. > > What else do you want here Ruth? Cheers, > Ruppert > > On Feb 5, 2010, at 10:46 AM, Ruth Hoffman wrote: > > > > Hi Tim: > > I've been through this already. Several times over. > > > > All I can say at this point is, no one is minding the store. I just > > don't get it: You guys spend hours agonizing over how and where to put > > spaces in Java files, yet you can't see the most obvious flaws in how > > OFBiz does business. > > > > Oh well... > > > > Regards, > > > > Ruth > > > > > > > > > > Tim Ruppert wrote: > > > >> Ruth, I'm sure there's some good that could come out of your message - > >> so against my general nature of responding to this type of attitude, > >> I'm going to try and help you phrase this in a way that will help us > >> help infra to try to meet what you're looking for. Here's what I see > >> when I go to the site(s): > >> > >> http://ci.apache.org/projects/ofbiz/snapshots/ - not downloading and > >
Re: New vision [was Re: Nice job on keeping the download site up-to-date.]
Hi Matt: Obviously, I don't have a life... ;-) Matt Warnock wrote: On Fri, 2010-02-05 at 17:12 -0500, Ruth Hoffman wrote: Hi Matt: Thanks for your input. I'm always open to rebuke. Wasn't intended as rebuke, just (hopefully) helpful observation. We all can use those, I think. I take issue with one thing you said: "The primary business is always developing the system". IMO, "developing the system" does not always mean adding code to the project at the expense of some very basic business related tasks. Committers on this project, are always being taken to task for not tying up loose ends (my reference to how Java code is formatted, for example). Why shouldn't the project be held responsible for work effort around the infrastructure. This is like saying that as a committer, you only need take responsibility's for those things that you choose to care about. Ah, but that's just it-- You can't "hold people responsible" in a volunteer organization. What ya gonna do, fire 'em? In an ideal world, a volunteer would do the whole job, not just their favorite parts. We'd get good code AND good documentation. But in the Real World(TM), skills differ. Though I CAN do both, I am a much better writer than a coder, and I have the good sense to know it. And as a newbie, I am too low on the learning curve to do much more than make (hopefully) helpful suggestions as I fight my way through. And as an old French saying goes, "you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar". If you want to catch flies, that is. :) I beg to differ. People get fired from volunteer positions all the time. Many times they are "asked" to leave because their behavior does not coincide with that of the organization for which they have volunteered. My basic philosophy about volunteering goes back to something I once read about there being no such thing as "altruism". Everyone has a hidden agenda including the volunteers on this project. And if that agenda does not fit nicely with the health and well being of the project? Just an observation. I wish I could fix this. Heaven knows I've tried but I'm not a committer. I've been through this with the project "foxes" several times already. And here's my point: IMO, It is the project's "main" job to see that things are put in place to preserve the project. And maybe that is where we all differ. I say if you are a committer, then you need to take full responsibility for the project and not just those things you find "interesting" or "exciting". In "The Mythical Man-Month", I think, the author said that managing programmers was like trying to herd cats. Managing volunteer programmers, then, is like trying to herd birds. Not only are they (like cats) not herd animals, but they are not even limited to our herding plane, and since we don't pay them, they are in no way subject to our will. So if you want to "fix this", all I can say is, good luck with that. Being a committer won't help. But we can still feed the birds, and enjoy their products, and hopefully not be the statues on which they perch. :) (No analogy is perfect.) Actually, from experience I can tell you that herding some birds - chickens - can be done. It starts by socializing them at an early age and getting them use to human contact. Maybe some of these developers need some socialization? And you know what, I bet that if you really look closely, there aren't too many volunteers on this project that don't have someone else footing the bill for their volunteer work. Nothing wrong with that, but let us be clear about who is paying for what here. The volunteer effort is not as "pure" as some would have us believe. We have gone from "foxes" guarding the chicken coop to no one guarding the chicken coop. I'm not rolling my eyes anymore. I'm just smiling because now there is more opportunity for me to help people figure out how to use OFBiz. Just hope they don't get too scared away before they find me on the web. Not sure who the "foxes" are, or how they relate to the chicken coop (back to birds again). I doubt anyone wants to hurt OFBiz, they just have different views of what is the *MOST* important thing that *THEY* can do right *NOW* to advance it. That is both natural and healthy, and the reason that, over time, free enterprise almost always works better than planned economies. Your "best" or "easiest" solution will not be mine and vice versa, and one size never fits all perfectly, but one may be a better approximation than another in a particular case, or even for most cases. Reasonable minds can and do differ and even disagree. And so I propose Warnock's Razor (a corollary to Hanlon's): "Never ascribe to ignorance or stupidity that which is adequately explained by a different life experience and point of view". Or to put it more succinctly: "Counterview before Cock-up". And in FOSS, that is even more true-- everyone scratches their own itch fir
New vision [was Re: Nice job on keeping the download site up-to-date.]
On Fri, 2010-02-05 at 17:12 -0500, Ruth Hoffman wrote: > Hi Matt: > Thanks for your input. I'm always open to rebuke. Wasn't intended as rebuke, just (hopefully) helpful observation. We all can use those, I think. > I take issue with one thing you said: "The primary business is always > developing the system". IMO, "developing the system" does not always > mean adding code to the project at the expense of some very basic > business related tasks. Committers on this project, are always being > taken to task for not tying up loose ends (my reference to how Java code > is formatted, for example). Why shouldn't the project be held > responsible for work effort around the infrastructure. This is like > saying that as a committer, you only need take responsibility's for > those things that you choose to care about. Ah, but that's just it-- You can't "hold people responsible" in a volunteer organization. What ya gonna do, fire 'em? In an ideal world, a volunteer would do the whole job, not just their favorite parts. We'd get good code AND good documentation. But in the Real World(TM), skills differ. Though I CAN do both, I am a much better writer than a coder, and I have the good sense to know it. And as a newbie, I am too low on the learning curve to do much more than make (hopefully) helpful suggestions as I fight my way through. And as an old French saying goes, "you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar". If you want to catch flies, that is. :) > I wish I could fix this. Heaven knows I've tried but I'm not a > committer. I've been through this with the project "foxes" several times > already. And here's my point: IMO, It is the project's "main" job to > see that things are put in place to preserve the project. And maybe that > is where we all differ. I say if you are a committer, then you need to > take full responsibility for the project and not just those things you > find "interesting" or "exciting". In "The Mythical Man-Month", I think, the author said that managing programmers was like trying to herd cats. Managing volunteer programmers, then, is like trying to herd birds. Not only are they (like cats) not herd animals, but they are not even limited to our herding plane, and since we don't pay them, they are in no way subject to our will. So if you want to "fix this", all I can say is, good luck with that. Being a committer won't help. But we can still feed the birds, and enjoy their products, and hopefully not be the statues on which they perch. :) (No analogy is perfect.) > We have gone from "foxes" guarding the chicken coop to no one guarding > the chicken coop. I'm not rolling my eyes anymore. I'm just smiling > because now there is more opportunity for me to help people figure out > how to use OFBiz. Just hope they don't get too scared away before they > find me on the web. Not sure who the "foxes" are, or how they relate to the chicken coop (back to birds again). I doubt anyone wants to hurt OFBiz, they just have different views of what is the *MOST* important thing that *THEY* can do right *NOW* to advance it. That is both natural and healthy, and the reason that, over time, free enterprise almost always works better than planned economies. Your "best" or "easiest" solution will not be mine and vice versa, and one size never fits all perfectly, but one may be a better approximation than another in a particular case, or even for most cases. Reasonable minds can and do differ and even disagree. And so I propose Warnock's Razor (a corollary to Hanlon's): "Never ascribe to ignorance or stupidity that which is adequately explained by a different life experience and point of view". Or to put it more succinctly: "Counterview before Cock-up". And in FOSS, that is even more true-- everyone scratches their own itch first. I agree with you that there is a problem here in the OFBiz community, but I think it is cultural, not technical or administrative. I think there needs to be more grateful abundance (less scarcity) mentality, more positive (less negative) energy, and more volunteerism (less criticism). But (I hope) this feeling is more than just me saying "Can't we all just get along." More importantly, I think a change in the collective vision can put more money in all our pockets. This can be accomplished by focusing more energy on reducing, where possible, the learning curve, so that more people can get more real work done faster, thus freeing us all from the limits of 80/20 rule. Silverston posits, I think correctly, that 80% of all businesses operations are generally the same, being more or less "standard" or non-unique aspects of business in general. That standard 80% is NOT what generates the real profits. Using the 80/20 rule, that standard 80% of the business generates only 20% of the profits, while the other 20% (the unique part) drives 80% of the profits. As a business person, I can't afford to ignore the standard 80% (like accou
Re: What I would like to see [was: Re: Nice job on keeping the download site up-to-date.]
Well - I think what we went thru was the difference between targeting the trunk and targeting the release branch - and we do still differ there in a big way - so that's not what I want to talk about. What I'm looking for are actual examples and thought put in to _how_ I can help design and bring to fruition the type of snapshot website that you would be stoked about. As I said earlier, even examples of someone else doing it really well is out there. What you've written below is really general and doesn't make much sense to me >>> I'd like to have a download site where any user, especially a new user, >>> could visit, feel comfortable about the project (and life in general), and >>> then proceed about the business of downloading code. Easy, simple and >>> painless. I'm down to spend my time and my companies time in marketing OFBiz - (I think I've proven that) - but I'd like a little guidance - at least in this discussion - towards an example of doing it right. Cheers, Ruppert On Feb 5, 2010, at 1:12 PM, Ruth Hoffman wrote: > Hi Tim: > I'm a little surprised. I thought we went through this a while back (maybe a > few months ago) and the answer was: "the site is targeted at project > committers". I left that discussion with the impression that was the last > word. Are you saying that you might be open to discussing this again? > Regards, > Ruth > > Tim Ruppert wrote: >> Thanks for the feedback. I'm going to think on it this weekend and will try >> and come up with some ideas of how this could work better. If you could >> show me some sites that you do like, that would be a big help - then I can >> see how to get that working in our world. >> >> Cheers, >> Ruppert >> >> On Feb 5, 2010, at 12:13 PM, Ruth Hoffman wrote: >> >> >>> Hi Tim: >>> Since you asked: >>> >>> I'd like to have a download site where any user, especially a new user, >>> could visit, feel comfortable about the project (and life in general), and >>> then proceed about the business of downloading code. Easy, simple and >>> painless. Yes, the nightly builds are a HUGE step in that direction. Thanks >>> again to everyone who makes this possible. But, lets put that in >>> perspective: That only makes the process of downloading easier. >>> >>> I'd also like to have a seat on the project's oversight group. I don't >>> understand how a project of this magnitude can continue to grow and prosper >>> without business oriented people helping to guide it. The oversight group >>> (whoever they happen to be) is like a bunch of very clever "foxes" guarding >>> the "chicken coop". (Where the "chicken coop" is the code base.) There is >>> so much more to making software successful than anything clever "foxes" >>> will ever have time to consider. >>> >>> Actually, I take that back. If I'm part of the committer's group, I won't >>> be able to "whine" and "troll" from the comfort of my desktop anymore. >>> >>> Regards, >>> Ruth >>> >>> >>> Tim Ruppert wrote: >>> Thanks - again that was super helpful. I took the time to lay it out like a towel what was there, what looks to be broken when we migrated to the ASF infra and no you wont' go thru it? There are some obvious spots for you to say something or point to projects you like, but you just continue to roll your eyes. I didn't push for or want this move to the ASF infra - but I'm still trying to help here. What else do you want here Ruth? Cheers, Ruppert On Feb 5, 2010, at 10:46 AM, Ruth Hoffman wrote: > Hi Tim: > I've been through this already. Several times over. > > All I can say at this point is, no one is minding the store. I just don't > get it: You guys spend hours agonizing over how and where to put spaces > in Java files, yet you can't see the most obvious flaws in how OFBiz does > business. > > Oh well... > > Regards, > > Ruth > > > > > Tim Ruppert wrote: > >> Ruth, I'm sure there's some good that could come out of your message - >> so against my general nature of responding to this type of attitude, I'm >> going to try and help you phrase this in a way that will help us help >> infra to try to meet what you're looking for. Here's what I see when I >> go to the site(s): >> >> http://ci.apache.org/projects/ofbiz/snapshots/ - not downloading and >> testing anything - just looking at what I see: >> >> 1. The nightly trunk seems to be updated daily. >> 2. The 9.04 builds seem to, for some reason not be being updated on this >> page. >> 3. There aren't many 4.0 releases being built. >> >> Then I go to here - >> http://ci.apache.org/projects/ofbiz/archive/snapshots/ - and I see a >> slightly different picture: >> >> 1. The trunk builds aren't really archives they're simply another copy >>
Re: Nice job on keeping the download site up-to-date.
On Feb 5, 2010, at 4:12 PM, Ruth Hoffman wrote: > Hi Matt: > Thanks for your input. I'm always open to rebuke. > > I take issue with one thing you said: "The primary business is always > developing the system". IMO, "developing the system" does not always mean > adding code to the project at the expense of some very basic business related > tasks. Committers on this project, are always being taken to task for not > tying up loose ends (my reference to how Java code is formatted, for > example). Why shouldn't the project be held responsible for work effort > around the infrastructure. This is like saying that as a committer, you only > need take responsibility's for those things that you choose to care about. Ummm... what are you getting at here? Of course committers only take responsibility for the things they care about. Are you hoping for some means to force volunteers to do something? What exactly would that look like? On the other hand, is your hope to scare away volunteers by saying that the more you contribute the more you are obligated to contribute? If sarcasm is easier for you to understand, here it comes: Wow, what a sweet deal! Where can I sign up?!? Can I do it now?!? Can I do it now?!? Oh, I know... maybe if you attack and insult people enough THAT will get them to do what you want. Here's a reality check for you: we're people and volunteers, NOT slaves or even employees. > I wish I could fix this. Heaven knows I've tried but I'm not a committer. > I've been through this with the project "foxes" several times already. And > here's my point: IMO, It is the project's "main" job to see that things are > put in place to preserve the project. And maybe that is where we all differ. > I say if you are a committer, then you need to take full responsibility for > the project and not just those things you find "interesting" or "exciting". You've tried? By doing what? Also, how would being a committer help you to fix this? I've seen no effort on your part except building a self-serving business instead of participating in the community, and spending a few minutes here and there to attack and insult people who have contributed voluntarily. If that's what you think will make a change here, or anywhere, then there is a huge gap between your understanding of reality and its true nature. You clearly don't understand how things work here, how to get things done here, and I'd even go so far as to say that your understanding of people and motivations is far separated from reality. -David > We have gone from "foxes" guarding the chicken coop to no one guarding the > chicken coop. I'm not rolling my eyes anymore. I'm just smiling because now > there is more opportunity for me to help people figure out how to use OFBiz. > Just hope they don't get too scared away before they find me on the web. > > Just my 2 cents. > > Regards, > Ruth > > Matt Warnock wrote: >> My understanding is that the whole site has just changed hosting. A few >> broken links are to be expected. Doesn't mean no one is minding the >> store-- there is a lot to be done and a few things may be discovered as >> we go along. >> The primary business is always developing the system-- the website that >> demonstrates and documents the system is ancillary. Kind of like >> chewing Linus out because kernel.org has an outage or a broken link when >> changing hosting companies. 1) It isn't his main job (maybe not even a >> little bit). 2) Nothing is perfect, especially when a major change is >> underway. 3) How is someone going to know unless they are told exactly >> what the problem is? >> Developers are mostly using svn to update, I'd bet. So a broken >> download link would only be apparent to others (mostly first-time users, >> as you say). Logs might mention it, but I don't know anyone that reads >> them daily, do you? Automated log analyzers might help here to report >> broken links that developers don't often see. So let's view this as an >> opportunity to improve ancillary parts of the system, which are also >> important in that newbies see them first. >> >> >> On Fri, 2010-02-05 at 13:11 -0500, Ruth Hoffman wrote: >> >>> Hi Jacques: >>> That would be really nice, but I'm not even at that stage yet. >>> >>> My problem is with the download web page. There has been a major regression >>> here and no one has said a word (until me, right now) about it. That leads >>> me to say: "Who is minding the store?". This is the second or third thing >>> anyone interested in OFBiz sees...after the splash page. >>> >>> It's a mess of "stuff" that no one in their "right" (or "left") mind would >>> bother to spend too much time trying to decipher. Worst case: A prospective >>> user leaves the site (with a slight hint suggesting that maybe the code is >>> as disorganized as the web page) and downloads some other project's code. >>> Bye-bye prospect. Wouldn't touch it with a 10 foot pole. >>> >>> B
Re: What I would like to see [was: Re: Nice job on keeping the download site up-to-date.]
Yes they do ... :) Cheers, Ruppert On Feb 5, 2010, at 5:18 PM, David E Jones wrote: > > Plenty of PMC members, committers, and contributors still manage to do just > that... > > -David > > > On Feb 5, 2010, at 1:31 PM, Tim Ruppert wrote: > >> You're definitely right about that :) >> >> Cheers, >> Ruppert >> >> On Feb 5, 2010, at 12:13 PM, Ruth Hoffman wrote: >> >>> Actually, I take that back. If I'm part of the committer's group, I won't >>> be able to "whine" and "troll" from the comfort of my desktop anymore. >> > smime.p7s Description: S/MIME cryptographic signature
Re: What I would like to see [was: Re: Nice job on keeping the download site up-to-date.]
On Feb 5, 2010, at 3:24 PM, Jacques Le Roux wrote: > One feeling I have though, PHBs are often pushing this way, note that I did > not say that you are a PHB :p > Actually, I agree with you about "our" lack of interest for end user. I think > this is due to the nature of OFBiz itself... I won't agree there is any lack of interest for end-users. In fact, nearly everything in OFBiz is the result of some end-user or other requesting functionality and being willing to sponsor its creation and contribution back to the project. However, end-users have different interests than vendors, so one should not expect the same results of end-user driven efforts as of vendor-driven efforts. -David
Re: What I would like to see [was: Re: Nice job on keeping the download site up-to-date.]
On Feb 5, 2010, at 3:03 PM, Adrian Crum wrote: > --- On Fri, 2/5/10, Ruth Hoffman wrote: >> There is so much more to making software >> successful than anything clever "foxes" will ever have time >> to consider. > > You make it sound as though you have some special insight no one else has. If > you feel the project can benefit from your insight, then it would help if you > made meaningful contributions in the form of software patches - instead of > busying yourself with writing hyperbole. Contributions certainly do not have to be software patches. Non-developers are needed and can contribute to gathering and document requirements, producing designs, and then collaborating with others to get them built. Feedback on current functionality is especially helpful if there is a documented business context to help define how it should be (aka "requirements"). There is also a great need for documentation of existing features, public relations and marketing efforts, business development (different from traditional business development, but building "partnerships" of a sort still applies to projects like OFBiz), lobbying in government and large organizations and industry associations and so on, organizing and facilitating volunteer efforts (doing so effectively is not easy), and many other things. In fact, I think perhaps the list of possible contributions that don't involve development are larger at this point than those that do involve development. With a little creativity there is always something to do, and with OFBiz there are SO many untapped opportunities. For a more specific example, if someone wanted to build their network and help build OFBiz at the same time they could start gathering stories and testimonials of end-user organizations and of service provider organizations (even starting with the public/voluntary lists on the wiki), and then organize and publish them. It has been a long time since anything like this has been done, and the stories available now are far better than then... so the field is "white" and certainly ready for harvest. Even building a business that uses OFBiz, or even better one that helps others use OFBiz, helps the project. However, that's not really a direct contribution that helps the project and it wouldn't really be considered a "contribution" per-se. -David
Re: What I would like to see [was: Re: Nice job on keeping the download site up-to-date.]
On Feb 5, 2010, at 1:13 PM, Ruth Hoffman wrote: > I'd also like to have a seat on the project's oversight group. I don't > understand how a project of this magnitude can continue to grow and prosper > without business oriented people helping to guide it. The oversight group > (whoever they happen to be) is like a bunch of very clever "foxes" guarding > the "chicken coop". (Where the "chicken coop" is the code base.) There is so > much more to making software successful than anything clever "foxes" will > ever have time to consider. Ruth, If you'd like it, you'll have to earn it, and that is done by contributing. Perhaps the PMC has overlooked your contributions that merit your invitation. If so, please send a message to priv...@ofbiz.apache.org and explain your position. And yes, there are many ways to contribute that don't involve code. On the other hand, what sort of "power" do you think you'll have once you are a PMC member? What do you think you'll be able to do that you can't do now? -David
Re: What I would like to see [was: Re: Nice job on keeping the download site up-to-date.]
Plenty of PMC members, committers, and contributors still manage to do just that... -David On Feb 5, 2010, at 1:31 PM, Tim Ruppert wrote: > You're definitely right about that :) > > Cheers, > Ruppert > > On Feb 5, 2010, at 12:13 PM, Ruth Hoffman wrote: > >> Actually, I take that back. If I'm part of the committer's group, I won't >> be able to "whine" and "troll" from the comfort of my desktop anymore. >
Re: Nice job on keeping the download site up-to-date.
--- On Fri, 2/5/10, Ruth Hoffman wrote: > I say if you are a committer, then you > need to take full responsibility for the project and not > just those things you find "interesting" or "exciting". Here again you are misunderstanding open source software. OFBiz is a community of volunteers. Who is to say they are to take full responsibility for the project? Who put you in charge to say that? I've been involved with OFBiz for 6 years, and I've seen discussions like this before - people with self-proclaimed superiority start out complaining about the project, but have nothing meaningful to contribute. When asked to provide patches to back up their claims, they disappear or make excuses. The bottom line is, you can talk all you want about how great you are at what you do, but until you actually provide work to back up your claims, your talk is just wasted bandwidth. -Adrian
Re: Nice job on keeping the download site up-to-date.
That was exactly my thinking Matt. The current nightly build page is more likely to scare newbies away IMHO. Your idea below would be much more helpful to new users. Matt Warnock wrote: Speaking as a newbie, I have downloaded nightly builds, but never anything other than the most recent one. I would think that an explanation of the differences between 4.0, 9.4, and trunk, together with notes on how to keep current in each, would be good info for the front page. A link to a separate page of past versions (mostly for historical interest) might be merited under those, but I can't see any earthly reason for links to 10 nightly builds for each version on page 1. Just creates confusion, IMHO. On Fri, 2010-02-05 at 22:09 +, Christopher Snow wrote: Are nightly builds actually used? Anyone who already does ofbiz development would want to use svn? Anyone new to ofbiz would only want ofbiz-rel9.04-current.zip or ofbiz-trunk-current.zip? Just curious... Tim Ruppert wrote: Ruth, I'm sure there's some good that could come out of your message - so against my general nature of responding to this type of attitude, I'm going to try and help you phrase this in a way that will help us help infra to try to meet what you're looking for. Here's what I see when I go to the site(s): http://ci.apache.org/projects/ofbiz/snapshots/ - not downloading and testing anything - just looking at what I see: 1. The nightly trunk seems to be updated daily. 2. The 9.04 builds seem to, for some reason not be being updated on this page. 3. There aren't many 4.0 releases being built. Then I go to here - http://ci.apache.org/projects/ofbiz/archive/snapshots/ - and I see a slightly different picture: 1. The trunk builds aren't really archives they're simply another copy after it was moved over. -- The archives are there though from when HotWax was managing it. 2. The 9.04 builds seem to really be the ones that we'd want on that first page. Now, since I know that this release and the downloads are super important to you, I'm really more interested in hearing you: 1. Lay out the way you'd like to see these pages work. 2. Even show some examples of other projects that you _do_ like I hope this helps Ruth - as Adrian and Jacopo mentioned, what you've sent here is just a whine, not a helpful way for anyone to improve. Put in the time and help us to make it more like you like and I'm sure you'll be more pleased with the result. Btw, all of those other options are not the same type of community driven projects as the ASF, so it's hard to manage the same way. When commercial interests are more intertwined with the project, there are definitely benefits (as well as drawbacks), so let's at least acknowledge those. Cheers, Ruppert On Feb 5, 2010, at 10:23 AM, Adrian Crum wrote: If there is a problem with the OFBiz site, it would be helpful to know what it is. Remarks like this are not helpful. -Adrian Ruth Hoffman wrote: This was meant as a sarcastic, "I can't believe this kind of thing keeps falling through the cracks", kind of remark. No wonder new users shy away. I mean, no wonder new users run as fast as their browsers will take them to OpenBravo, OpenERP, Magento... Regards, Ruth Find me on the web at http://www.myofbiz.com or Google keyword "myofbiz" ruth.hoff...@myofbiz.com
Re: Nice job on keeping the download site up-to-date.
Speaking as a newbie, I have downloaded nightly builds, but never anything other than the most recent one. I would think that an explanation of the differences between 4.0, 9.4, and trunk, together with notes on how to keep current in each, would be good info for the front page. A link to a separate page of past versions (mostly for historical interest) might be merited under those, but I can't see any earthly reason for links to 10 nightly builds for each version on page 1. Just creates confusion, IMHO. On Fri, 2010-02-05 at 22:09 +, Christopher Snow wrote: > Are nightly builds actually used? > > Anyone who already does ofbiz development would want to use svn? > > Anyone new to ofbiz would only want ofbiz-rel9.04-current.zip or > ofbiz-trunk-current.zip? > > Just curious... > > Tim Ruppert wrote: > > Ruth, I'm sure there's some good that could come out of your message - so > > against my general nature of responding to this type of attitude, I'm going > > to try and help you phrase this in a way that will help us help infra to > > try to meet what you're looking for. Here's what I see when I go to the > > site(s): > > > > http://ci.apache.org/projects/ofbiz/snapshots/ - not downloading and > > testing anything - just looking at what I see: > > > > 1. The nightly trunk seems to be updated daily. > > 2. The 9.04 builds seem to, for some reason not be being updated on this > > page. > > 3. There aren't many 4.0 releases being built. > > > > Then I go to here - http://ci.apache.org/projects/ofbiz/archive/snapshots/ > > - and I see a slightly different picture: > > > > 1. The trunk builds aren't really archives they're simply another copy > > after it was moved over. > > -- The archives are there though from when HotWax was managing it. > > 2. The 9.04 builds seem to really be the ones that we'd want on that first > > page. > > > > Now, since I know that this release and the downloads are super important > > to you, I'm really more interested in hearing you: > > > > 1. Lay out the way you'd like to see these pages work. > > 2. Even show some examples of other projects that you _do_ like > > > > I hope this helps Ruth - as Adrian and Jacopo mentioned, what you've sent > > here is just a whine, not a helpful way for anyone to improve. Put in the > > time and help us to make it more like you like and I'm sure you'll be more > > pleased with the result. Btw, all of those other options are not the same > > type of community driven projects as the ASF, so it's hard to manage the > > same way. When commercial interests are more intertwined with the project, > > there are definitely benefits (as well as drawbacks), so let's at least > > acknowledge those. > > > > Cheers, > > Ruppert > > > > On Feb 5, 2010, at 10:23 AM, Adrian Crum wrote: > > > > > >> If there is a problem with the OFBiz site, it would be helpful to know > >> what it is. Remarks like this are not helpful. > >> > >> -Adrian > >> > >> Ruth Hoffman wrote: > >> > >>> This was meant as a sarcastic, "I can't believe this kind of thing keeps > >>> falling through the cracks", kind of remark. No wonder new users shy > >>> away. I mean, no wonder new users run as fast as their browsers will take > >>> them to OpenBravo, OpenERP, Magento... > >>> Regards, > >>> Ruth > >>> > >>> Find me on the web at http://www.myofbiz.com or Google keyword "myofbiz" > >>> ruth.hoff...@myofbiz.com > >>> > > > > -- Matt Warnock RidgeCrest Herbals, Inc.
Re: Nice job on keeping the download site up-to-date.
Hi Matt: Thanks for your input. I'm always open to rebuke. I take issue with one thing you said: "The primary business is always developing the system". IMO, "developing the system" does not always mean adding code to the project at the expense of some very basic business related tasks. Committers on this project, are always being taken to task for not tying up loose ends (my reference to how Java code is formatted, for example). Why shouldn't the project be held responsible for work effort around the infrastructure. This is like saying that as a committer, you only need take responsibility's for those things that you choose to care about. I wish I could fix this. Heaven knows I've tried but I'm not a committer. I've been through this with the project "foxes" several times already. And here's my point: IMO, It is the project's "main" job to see that things are put in place to preserve the project. And maybe that is where we all differ. I say if you are a committer, then you need to take full responsibility for the project and not just those things you find "interesting" or "exciting". We have gone from "foxes" guarding the chicken coop to no one guarding the chicken coop. I'm not rolling my eyes anymore. I'm just smiling because now there is more opportunity for me to help people figure out how to use OFBiz. Just hope they don't get too scared away before they find me on the web. Just my 2 cents. Regards, Ruth Matt Warnock wrote: My understanding is that the whole site has just changed hosting. A few broken links are to be expected. Doesn't mean no one is minding the store-- there is a lot to be done and a few things may be discovered as we go along. The primary business is always developing the system-- the website that demonstrates and documents the system is ancillary. Kind of like chewing Linus out because kernel.org has an outage or a broken link when changing hosting companies. 1) It isn't his main job (maybe not even a little bit). 2) Nothing is perfect, especially when a major change is underway. 3) How is someone going to know unless they are told exactly what the problem is? Developers are mostly using svn to update, I'd bet. So a broken download link would only be apparent to others (mostly first-time users, as you say). Logs might mention it, but I don't know anyone that reads them daily, do you? Automated log analyzers might help here to report broken links that developers don't often see. So let's view this as an opportunity to improve ancillary parts of the system, which are also important in that newbies see them first. On Fri, 2010-02-05 at 13:11 -0500, Ruth Hoffman wrote: Hi Jacques: That would be really nice, but I'm not even at that stage yet. My problem is with the download web page. There has been a major regression here and no one has said a word (until me, right now) about it. That leads me to say: "Who is minding the store?". This is the second or third thing anyone interested in OFBiz sees...after the splash page. It's a mess of "stuff" that no one in their "right" (or "left") mind would bother to spend too much time trying to decipher. Worst case: A prospective user leaves the site (with a slight hint suggesting that maybe the code is as disorganized as the web page) and downloads some other project's code. Bye-bye prospect. Wouldn't touch it with a 10 foot pole. Best case: A prospect user will end up downloading the trunk code, because, on this web page, all roads lead to a trunk download. Then, well how much fun is that going to be for a new user who doesn't have a clue where to start? Bye-bye prospect. I tried, but code isn't stable enough for my tastes. And some wonder why there isn't more OFBiz activity out there. Well, I for one am pretty sure I know why. Regards, Ruth Jacques Le Roux wrote: Some ASF projects are very sucessful yet with strong competition, for instance ServiceMix vs Mule, Geronimo, vs..., etc. We may mimic some of the ways they are doing things. For instance, some time ago Chris Snow asked for a better SEO, I'm not quite sure but I think it'a about exporting the wiki and make Google (and other SEs) knows about it... Jacques From: "Tim Ruppert" Ruth, I'm sure there's some good that could come out of your message - so against my general nature of responding to this type of attitude, I'm going to try and help you phrase this in a way that will help us help infra to try to meet what you're looking for. Here's what I see when I go to the site(s): http://ci.apache.org/projects/ofbiz/snapshots/ - not downloading and testing anything - just looking at what I see: 1. The nightly trunk seems to be updated daily. 2. The 9.04 builds seem to, for some reason not be being updated on this page. 3. There aren't many 4.0 releases being built. Then I go to here - http://ci.apache.org/projects/ofbiz/archive/snapshots/ - and I see a slightly different picture: 1. The trunk
Re: What I would like to see [was: Re: Nice job on keeping the download site up-to-date.]
Adrian Crum wrote: --- On Fri, 2/5/10, Ruth Hoffman wrote: I'd also like to have a seat on the project's oversight group. Apache OFBiz is based on meritocracy - there is no oversight group. We are all peers and volunteers. http://www.apache.org/foundation/how-it-works.html#meritocracy Except when it comes to updating the website or adding code to the code base. Now, why do I need to be a Java developer to maintain the website? I don't understand how a project of this magnitude can continue to grow and prosper without business oriented people helping to guide it. There are business oriented people guiding it. Many of the committers are or have been business owners. Really? I hope they don't run their businesses the same way they run the project. There is so much more to making software successful than anything clever "foxes" will ever have time to consider. You make it sound as though you have some special insight no one else has. If you feel the project can benefit from your insight, then it would help if you made meaningful contributions in the form of software patches - instead of busying yourself with writing hyperbole. Well, Adrian perhaps I do have some insight. BTW, I have made several patch and other contributions in the past. -Adrian
Re: Nice job on keeping the download site up-to-date.
ok.. here's my two cents... OfBiz is too complicated for the noobs. Ofbiz is an extremely powerful framework. But with power comes responsibility. You should be expected to spend 200-400 hours in understanding ofBiz., Anyone who has dealt with commercial ERP (some of my "favorite" vendors come to mind) would tell you that this is a awesome deal. Let me not even mention what the other "vendors" make you go through. Newbies (as opposed to noobs) will figure it out. ok.. a link is missing here and there..so what ? Build a distribution of oFbiz on AWS or something and then you won't need to rely on this infrastructure; if that is your pain (it certainly is NOT mine). I believe that ofbiz is much better than the rest of the open source erps. It is a lot easier to integrate and has a well thought out framework. Regards -- Milind On Fri, Feb 5, 2010 at 1:40 PM, Matt Warnock wrote: > My understanding is that the whole site has just changed hosting. A few > broken links are to be expected. Doesn't mean no one is minding the > store-- there is a lot to be done and a few things may be discovered as > we go along. > > The primary business is always developing the system-- the website that > demonstrates and documents the system is ancillary. Kind of like > chewing Linus out because kernel.org has an outage or a broken link when > changing hosting companies. 1) It isn't his main job (maybe not even a > little bit). 2) Nothing is perfect, especially when a major change is > underway. 3) How is someone going to know unless they are told exactly > what the problem is? > > Developers are mostly using svn to update, I'd bet. So a broken > download link would only be apparent to others (mostly first-time users, > as you say). Logs might mention it, but I don't know anyone that reads > them daily, do you? Automated log analyzers might help here to report > broken links that developers don't often see. So let's view this as an > opportunity to improve ancillary parts of the system, which are also > important in that newbies see them first. > > > On Fri, 2010-02-05 at 13:11 -0500, Ruth Hoffman wrote: > > Hi Jacques: > > That would be really nice, but I'm not even at that stage yet. > > > > My problem is with the download web page. There has been a major > > regression here and no one has said a word (until me, right now) about > > it. That leads me to say: "Who is minding the store?". This is the > > second or third thing anyone interested in OFBiz sees...after the splash > > page. > > > > It's a mess of "stuff" that no one in their "right" (or "left") mind > > would bother to spend too much time trying to decipher. Worst case: A > > prospective user leaves the site (with a slight hint suggesting that > > maybe the code is as disorganized as the web page) and downloads some > > other project's code. Bye-bye prospect. Wouldn't touch it with a 10 foot > > pole. > > > > Best case: A prospect user will end up downloading the trunk code, > > because, on this web page, all roads lead to a trunk download. Then, > > well how much fun is that going to be for a new user who doesn't have a > > clue where to start? Bye-bye prospect. I tried, but code isn't stable > > enough for my tastes. > > > > And some wonder why there isn't more OFBiz activity out there. Well, I > > for one am pretty sure I know why. > > > > Regards, > > Ruth > > > > Jacques Le Roux wrote: > > > Some ASF projects are very sucessful yet with strong competition, for > > > instance ServiceMix vs Mule, Geronimo, vs..., etc. > > > We may mimic some of the ways they are doing things. For instance, > > > some time ago Chris Snow asked for a better SEO, I'm not quite sure > > > but I think it'a about exporting the wiki and make Google (and other > > > SEs) knows about it... > > > > > > Jacques > > > > > > From: "Tim Ruppert" > > > Ruth, I'm sure there's some good that could come out of your message - > > > so against my general nature of responding to this type of attitude, > > > I'm going to try and help you phrase this in a way that will help us > > > help infra to try to meet what you're looking for. Here's what I see > > > when I go to the site(s): > > > > > > http://ci.apache.org/projects/ofbiz/snapshots/ - not downloading and > > > testing anything - just looking at what I see: > > > > > > 1. The nightly trunk seems to be updated daily. > > > 2. The 9.04 builds seem to, for some reason not be being updated on > > > this page. > > > 3. There aren't many 4.0 releases being built. > > > > > > Then I go to here - > > > http://ci.apache.org/projects/ofbiz/archive/snapshots/ - and I see a > > > slightly different picture: > > > > > > 1. The trunk builds aren't really archives they're simply another copy > > > after it was moved over. > > > -- The archives are there though from when HotWax was managing it. > > > 2. The 9.04 builds seem to really be the ones that we'd want on that > > > first page. > > > > > > Now, since I know that this release and the downloa
Re: Nice job on keeping the download site up-to-date.
Are nightly builds actually used? Anyone who already does ofbiz development would want to use svn? Anyone new to ofbiz would only want ofbiz-rel9.04-current.zip or ofbiz-trunk-current.zip? Just curious... Tim Ruppert wrote: Ruth, I'm sure there's some good that could come out of your message - so against my general nature of responding to this type of attitude, I'm going to try and help you phrase this in a way that will help us help infra to try to meet what you're looking for. Here's what I see when I go to the site(s): http://ci.apache.org/projects/ofbiz/snapshots/ - not downloading and testing anything - just looking at what I see: 1. The nightly trunk seems to be updated daily. 2. The 9.04 builds seem to, for some reason not be being updated on this page. 3. There aren't many 4.0 releases being built. Then I go to here - http://ci.apache.org/projects/ofbiz/archive/snapshots/ - and I see a slightly different picture: 1. The trunk builds aren't really archives they're simply another copy after it was moved over. -- The archives are there though from when HotWax was managing it. 2. The 9.04 builds seem to really be the ones that we'd want on that first page. Now, since I know that this release and the downloads are super important to you, I'm really more interested in hearing you: 1. Lay out the way you'd like to see these pages work. 2. Even show some examples of other projects that you _do_ like I hope this helps Ruth - as Adrian and Jacopo mentioned, what you've sent here is just a whine, not a helpful way for anyone to improve. Put in the time and help us to make it more like you like and I'm sure you'll be more pleased with the result. Btw, all of those other options are not the same type of community driven projects as the ASF, so it's hard to manage the same way. When commercial interests are more intertwined with the project, there are definitely benefits (as well as drawbacks), so let's at least acknowledge those. Cheers, Ruppert On Feb 5, 2010, at 10:23 AM, Adrian Crum wrote: If there is a problem with the OFBiz site, it would be helpful to know what it is. Remarks like this are not helpful. -Adrian Ruth Hoffman wrote: This was meant as a sarcastic, "I can't believe this kind of thing keeps falling through the cracks", kind of remark. No wonder new users shy away. I mean, no wonder new users run as fast as their browsers will take them to OpenBravo, OpenERP, Magento... Regards, Ruth Find me on the web at http://www.myofbiz.com or Google keyword "myofbiz" ruth.hoff...@myofbiz.com
Re: Nice job on keeping the download site up-to-date.
My understanding is that the whole site has just changed hosting. A few broken links are to be expected. Doesn't mean no one is minding the store-- there is a lot to be done and a few things may be discovered as we go along. The primary business is always developing the system-- the website that demonstrates and documents the system is ancillary. Kind of like chewing Linus out because kernel.org has an outage or a broken link when changing hosting companies. 1) It isn't his main job (maybe not even a little bit). 2) Nothing is perfect, especially when a major change is underway. 3) How is someone going to know unless they are told exactly what the problem is? Developers are mostly using svn to update, I'd bet. So a broken download link would only be apparent to others (mostly first-time users, as you say). Logs might mention it, but I don't know anyone that reads them daily, do you? Automated log analyzers might help here to report broken links that developers don't often see. So let's view this as an opportunity to improve ancillary parts of the system, which are also important in that newbies see them first. On Fri, 2010-02-05 at 13:11 -0500, Ruth Hoffman wrote: > Hi Jacques: > That would be really nice, but I'm not even at that stage yet. > > My problem is with the download web page. There has been a major > regression here and no one has said a word (until me, right now) about > it. That leads me to say: "Who is minding the store?". This is the > second or third thing anyone interested in OFBiz sees...after the splash > page. > > It's a mess of "stuff" that no one in their "right" (or "left") mind > would bother to spend too much time trying to decipher. Worst case: A > prospective user leaves the site (with a slight hint suggesting that > maybe the code is as disorganized as the web page) and downloads some > other project's code. Bye-bye prospect. Wouldn't touch it with a 10 foot > pole. > > Best case: A prospect user will end up downloading the trunk code, > because, on this web page, all roads lead to a trunk download. Then, > well how much fun is that going to be for a new user who doesn't have a > clue where to start? Bye-bye prospect. I tried, but code isn't stable > enough for my tastes. > > And some wonder why there isn't more OFBiz activity out there. Well, I > for one am pretty sure I know why. > > Regards, > Ruth > > Jacques Le Roux wrote: > > Some ASF projects are very sucessful yet with strong competition, for > > instance ServiceMix vs Mule, Geronimo, vs..., etc. > > We may mimic some of the ways they are doing things. For instance, > > some time ago Chris Snow asked for a better SEO, I'm not quite sure > > but I think it'a about exporting the wiki and make Google (and other > > SEs) knows about it... > > > > Jacques > > > > From: "Tim Ruppert" > > Ruth, I'm sure there's some good that could come out of your message - > > so against my general nature of responding to this type of attitude, > > I'm going to try and help you phrase this in a way that will help us > > help infra to try to meet what you're looking for. Here's what I see > > when I go to the site(s): > > > > http://ci.apache.org/projects/ofbiz/snapshots/ - not downloading and > > testing anything - just looking at what I see: > > > > 1. The nightly trunk seems to be updated daily. > > 2. The 9.04 builds seem to, for some reason not be being updated on > > this page. > > 3. There aren't many 4.0 releases being built. > > > > Then I go to here - > > http://ci.apache.org/projects/ofbiz/archive/snapshots/ - and I see a > > slightly different picture: > > > > 1. The trunk builds aren't really archives they're simply another copy > > after it was moved over. > > -- The archives are there though from when HotWax was managing it. > > 2. The 9.04 builds seem to really be the ones that we'd want on that > > first page. > > > > Now, since I know that this release and the downloads are super > > important to you, I'm really more interested in hearing you: > > > > 1. Lay out the way you'd like to see these pages work. > > 2. Even show some examples of other projects that you _do_ like > > > > I hope this helps Ruth - as Adrian and Jacopo mentioned, what you've > > sent here is just a whine, not a helpful way for anyone to improve. > > Put in the time and help us to make it more like you like and I'm sure > > you'll be more pleased with the result. Btw, all of those other > > options are not the same type of community driven projects as the ASF, > > so it's hard to manage the same way. When commercial interests are > > more intertwined with the project, there are definitely benefits (as > > well as drawbacks), so let's at least acknowledge those. > > > > Cheers, > > Ruppert > > > > On Feb 5, 2010, at 10:23 AM, Adrian Crum wrote: > > > >> If there is a problem with the OFBiz site, it would be helpful to > >> know what it is. Remarks like this are not helpful. > >> > >> -Adrian >
Re: What I would like to see [was: Re: Nice job on keeping the download site up-to-date.]
Ruth, I think it's because we have this opportunity while moving from Contegix to the ASF support: we will not use the same infrastrucure, ie new tools, scripts, locations, etc. But unfortunately (damned ISP I should say) as I said I'm currently not in a position too help much, Hans and Tim are still volunteering, and maybe some others will help too... One feeling I have though, PHBs are often pushing this way, note that I did not say that you are a PHB :p Actually, I agree with you about "our" lack of interest for end user. I think this is due to the nature of OFBiz itself... But I have no time to comment this more, and I have even the feeling that anyway commenting is not what is making the project progress. I remember Jacopo having a such speech some months (years?) ago... time goes by... Jacques From: "Ruth Hoffman" Hi Tim: I'm a little surprised. I thought we went through this a while back (maybe a few months ago) and the answer was: "the site is targeted at project committers". I left that discussion with the impression that was the last word. Are you saying that you might be open to discussing this again? Regards, Ruth Tim Ruppert wrote: Thanks for the feedback. I'm going to think on it this weekend and will try and come up with some ideas of how this could work better. If you could show me some sites that you do like, that would be a big help - then I can see how to get that working in our world. Cheers, Ruppert On Feb 5, 2010, at 12:13 PM, Ruth Hoffman wrote: Hi Tim: Since you asked: I'd like to have a download site where any user, especially a new user, could visit, feel comfortable about the project (and life in general), and then proceed about the business of downloading code. Easy, simple and painless. Yes, the nightly builds are a HUGE step in that direction. Thanks again to everyone who makes this possible. But, lets put that in perspective: That only makes the process of downloading easier. I'd also like to have a seat on the project's oversight group. I don't understand how a project of this magnitude can continue to grow and prosper without business oriented people helping to guide it. The oversight group (whoever they happen to be) is like a bunch of very clever "foxes" guarding the "chicken coop". (Where the "chicken coop" is the code base.) There is so much more to making software successful than anything clever "foxes" will ever have time to consider. Actually, I take that back. If I'm part of the committer's group, I won't be able to "whine" and "troll" from the comfort of my desktop anymore. Regards, Ruth Tim Ruppert wrote: Thanks - again that was super helpful. I took the time to lay it out like a towel what was there, what looks to be broken when we migrated to the ASF infra and no you wont' go thru it? There are some obvious spots for you to say something or point to projects you like, but you just continue to roll your eyes. I didn't push for or want this move to the ASF infra - but I'm still trying to help here. What else do you want here Ruth? Cheers, Ruppert On Feb 5, 2010, at 10:46 AM, Ruth Hoffman wrote: Hi Tim: I've been through this already. Several times over. All I can say at this point is, no one is minding the store. I just don't get it: You guys spend hours agonizing over how and where to put spaces in Java files, yet you can't see the most obvious flaws in how OFBiz does business. Oh well... Regards, Ruth Tim Ruppert wrote: Ruth, I'm sure there's some good that could come out of your message - so against my general nature of responding to this type of attitude, I'm going to try and help you phrase this in a way that will help us help infra to try to meet what you're looking for. Here's what I see when I go to the site(s): http://ci.apache.org/projects/ofbiz/snapshots/ - not downloading and testing anything - just looking at what I see: 1. The nightly trunk seems to be updated daily. 2. The 9.04 builds seem to, for some reason not be being updated on this page. 3. There aren't many 4.0 releases being built. Then I go to here - http://ci.apache.org/projects/ofbiz/archive/snapshots/ - and I see a slightly different picture: 1. The trunk builds aren't really archives they're simply another copy after it was moved over. -- The archives are there though from when HotWax was managing it. 2. The 9.04 builds seem to really be the ones that we'd want on that first page. Now, since I know that this release and the downloads are super important to you, I'm really more interested in hearing you: 1. Lay out the way you'd like to see these pages work. 2. Even show some examples of other projects that you _do_ like I hope this helps Ruth - as Adrian and Jacopo mentioned, what you've sent here is just a whine, not a helpful way for anyone to improve. Put in the time and help us to make it more like you like and I'm sure you'll be more pleased with the result. Btw, all of those other options are not
Re: What I would like to see [was: Re: Nice job on keeping the download site up-to-date.]
--- On Fri, 2/5/10, Ruth Hoffman wrote: > I'd also like to have a seat on the project's oversight > group. Apache OFBiz is based on meritocracy - there is no oversight group. We are all peers and volunteers. http://www.apache.org/foundation/how-it-works.html#meritocracy > I don't understand how a project of this magnitude > can continue to grow and prosper without business oriented > people helping to guide it. There are business oriented people guiding it. Many of the committers are or have been business owners. > There is so much more to making software > successful than anything clever "foxes" will ever have time > to consider. You make it sound as though you have some special insight no one else has. If you feel the project can benefit from your insight, then it would help if you made meaningful contributions in the form of software patches - instead of busying yourself with writing hyperbole. -Adrian
Re: What I would like to see [was: Re: Nice job on keeping the download site up-to-date.]
Hi Tim: I'm a little surprised. I thought we went through this a while back (maybe a few months ago) and the answer was: "the site is targeted at project committers". I left that discussion with the impression that was the last word. Are you saying that you might be open to discussing this again? Regards, Ruth Tim Ruppert wrote: Thanks for the feedback. I'm going to think on it this weekend and will try and come up with some ideas of how this could work better. If you could show me some sites that you do like, that would be a big help - then I can see how to get that working in our world. Cheers, Ruppert On Feb 5, 2010, at 12:13 PM, Ruth Hoffman wrote: Hi Tim: Since you asked: I'd like to have a download site where any user, especially a new user, could visit, feel comfortable about the project (and life in general), and then proceed about the business of downloading code. Easy, simple and painless. Yes, the nightly builds are a HUGE step in that direction. Thanks again to everyone who makes this possible. But, lets put that in perspective: That only makes the process of downloading easier. I'd also like to have a seat on the project's oversight group. I don't understand how a project of this magnitude can continue to grow and prosper without business oriented people helping to guide it. The oversight group (whoever they happen to be) is like a bunch of very clever "foxes" guarding the "chicken coop". (Where the "chicken coop" is the code base.) There is so much more to making software successful than anything clever "foxes" will ever have time to consider. Actually, I take that back. If I'm part of the committer's group, I won't be able to "whine" and "troll" from the comfort of my desktop anymore. Regards, Ruth Tim Ruppert wrote: Thanks - again that was super helpful. I took the time to lay it out like a towel what was there, what looks to be broken when we migrated to the ASF infra and no you wont' go thru it? There are some obvious spots for you to say something or point to projects you like, but you just continue to roll your eyes. I didn't push for or want this move to the ASF infra - but I'm still trying to help here. What else do you want here Ruth? Cheers, Ruppert On Feb 5, 2010, at 10:46 AM, Ruth Hoffman wrote: Hi Tim: I've been through this already. Several times over. All I can say at this point is, no one is minding the store. I just don't get it: You guys spend hours agonizing over how and where to put spaces in Java files, yet you can't see the most obvious flaws in how OFBiz does business. Oh well... Regards, Ruth Tim Ruppert wrote: Ruth, I'm sure there's some good that could come out of your message - so against my general nature of responding to this type of attitude, I'm going to try and help you phrase this in a way that will help us help infra to try to meet what you're looking for. Here's what I see when I go to the site(s): http://ci.apache.org/projects/ofbiz/snapshots/ - not downloading and testing anything - just looking at what I see: 1. The nightly trunk seems to be updated daily. 2. The 9.04 builds seem to, for some reason not be being updated on this page. 3. There aren't many 4.0 releases being built. Then I go to here - http://ci.apache.org/projects/ofbiz/archive/snapshots/ - and I see a slightly different picture: 1. The trunk builds aren't really archives they're simply another copy after it was moved over. -- The archives are there though from when HotWax was managing it. 2. The 9.04 builds seem to really be the ones that we'd want on that first page. Now, since I know that this release and the downloads are super important to you, I'm really more interested in hearing you: 1. Lay out the way you'd like to see these pages work. 2. Even show some examples of other projects that you _do_ like I hope this helps Ruth - as Adrian and Jacopo mentioned, what you've sent here is just a whine, not a helpful way for anyone to improve. Put in the time and help us to make it more like you like and I'm sure you'll be more pleased with the result. Btw, all of those other options are not the same type of community driven projects as the ASF, so it's hard to manage the same way. When commercial interests are more intertwined with the project, there are definitely benefits (as well as drawbacks), so let's at least acknowledge those. Cheers, Ruppert On Feb 5, 2010, at 10:23 AM, Adrian Crum wrote: If there is a problem with the OFBiz site, it would be helpful to know what it is. Remarks like this are not helpful. -Adrian Ruth Hoffman wrote: This was meant as a sarcastic, "I can't believe this kind of thing keeps falling through the cracks", kind of remark. No wonder new users shy away. I mean, no wonder new users run as fast as their browsers will take them to OpenBravo, OpenERP, Magento... Regards, Ruth --
Re: What I would like to see [was: Re: Nice job on keeping the download site up-to-date.]
Hi Tim: It is so much easier to "wing my salvos" from over here! Regards, Ruth Tim Ruppert wrote: You're definitely right about that :) Cheers, Ruppert On Feb 5, 2010, at 12:13 PM, Ruth Hoffman wrote: Actually, I take that back. If I'm part of the committer's group, I won't be able to "whine" and "troll" from the comfort of my desktop anymore.
Re: Nice job on keeping the download site up-to-date.
Hi Jacques: Can't ask for much more. Regards, Ruth Jacques Le Roux wrote: Ruth, For the moment with my broken connection and my rescue solution I can't help much, but when it will be fixed I will have a look at the situation at the moment Jacques From: "Ruth Hoffman" Hi Jacques: That would be really nice, but I'm not even at that stage yet. My problem is with the download web page. There has been a major regression here and no one has said a word (until me, right now) about it. That leads me to say: "Who is minding the store?". This is the second or third thing anyone interested in OFBiz sees...after the splash page. It's a mess of "stuff" that no one in their "right" (or "left") mind would bother to spend too much time trying to decipher. Worst case: A prospective user leaves the site (with a slight hint suggesting that maybe the code is as disorganized as the web page) and downloads some other project's code. Bye-bye prospect. Wouldn't touch it with a 10 foot pole. Best case: A prospect user will end up downloading the trunk code, because, on this web page, all roads lead to a trunk download. Then, well how much fun is that going to be for a new user who doesn't have a clue where to start? Bye-bye prospect. I tried, but code isn't stable enough for my tastes. And some wonder why there isn't more OFBiz activity out there. Well, I for one am pretty sure I know why. Regards, Ruth Jacques Le Roux wrote: Some ASF projects are very sucessful yet with strong competition, for instance ServiceMix vs Mule, Geronimo, vs..., etc. We may mimic some of the ways they are doing things. For instance, some time ago Chris Snow asked for a better SEO, I'm not quite sure but I think it'a about exporting the wiki and make Google (and other SEs) knows about it... Jacques From: "Tim Ruppert" Ruth, I'm sure there's some good that could come out of your message - so against my general nature of responding to this type of attitude, I'm going to try and help you phrase this in a way that will help us help infra to try to meet what you're looking for. Here's what I see when I go to the site(s): http://ci.apache.org/projects/ofbiz/snapshots/ - not downloading and testing anything - just looking at what I see: 1. The nightly trunk seems to be updated daily. 2. The 9.04 builds seem to, for some reason not be being updated on this page. 3. There aren't many 4.0 releases being built. Then I go to here - http://ci.apache.org/projects/ofbiz/archive/snapshots/ - and I see a slightly different picture: 1. The trunk builds aren't really archives they're simply another copy after it was moved over. -- The archives are there though from when HotWax was managing it. 2. The 9.04 builds seem to really be the ones that we'd want on that first page. Now, since I know that this release and the downloads are super important to you, I'm really more interested in hearing you: 1. Lay out the way you'd like to see these pages work. 2. Even show some examples of other projects that you _do_ like I hope this helps Ruth - as Adrian and Jacopo mentioned, what you've sent here is just a whine, not a helpful way for anyone to improve. Put in the time and help us to make it more like you like and I'm sure you'll be more pleased with the result. Btw, all of those other options are not the same type of community driven projects as the ASF, so it's hard to manage the same way. When commercial interests are more intertwined with the project, there are definitely benefits (as well as drawbacks), so let's at least acknowledge those. Cheers, Ruppert On Feb 5, 2010, at 10:23 AM, Adrian Crum wrote: If there is a problem with the OFBiz site, it would be helpful to know what it is. Remarks like this are not helpful. -Adrian Ruth Hoffman wrote: This was meant as a sarcastic, "I can't believe this kind of thing keeps falling through the cracks", kind of remark. No wonder new users shy away. I mean, no wonder new users run as fast as their browsers will take them to OpenBravo, OpenERP, Magento... Regards, Ruth Find me on the web at http://www.myofbiz.com or Google keyword "myofbiz" ruth.hoff...@myofbiz.com
Re: Nice job on keeping the download site up-to-date.
Ruth, For the moment with my broken connection and my rescue solution I can't help much, but when it will be fixed I will have a look at the situation at the moment Jacques From: "Ruth Hoffman" Hi Jacques: That would be really nice, but I'm not even at that stage yet. My problem is with the download web page. There has been a major regression here and no one has said a word (until me, right now) about it. That leads me to say: "Who is minding the store?". This is the second or third thing anyone interested in OFBiz sees...after the splash page. It's a mess of "stuff" that no one in their "right" (or "left") mind would bother to spend too much time trying to decipher. Worst case: A prospective user leaves the site (with a slight hint suggesting that maybe the code is as disorganized as the web page) and downloads some other project's code. Bye-bye prospect. Wouldn't touch it with a 10 foot pole. Best case: A prospect user will end up downloading the trunk code, because, on this web page, all roads lead to a trunk download. Then, well how much fun is that going to be for a new user who doesn't have a clue where to start? Bye-bye prospect. I tried, but code isn't stable enough for my tastes. And some wonder why there isn't more OFBiz activity out there. Well, I for one am pretty sure I know why. Regards, Ruth Jacques Le Roux wrote: Some ASF projects are very sucessful yet with strong competition, for instance ServiceMix vs Mule, Geronimo, vs..., etc. We may mimic some of the ways they are doing things. For instance, some time ago Chris Snow asked for a better SEO, I'm not quite sure but I think it'a about exporting the wiki and make Google (and other SEs) knows about it... Jacques From: "Tim Ruppert" Ruth, I'm sure there's some good that could come out of your message - so against my general nature of responding to this type of attitude, I'm going to try and help you phrase this in a way that will help us help infra to try to meet what you're looking for. Here's what I see when I go to the site(s): http://ci.apache.org/projects/ofbiz/snapshots/ - not downloading and testing anything - just looking at what I see: 1. The nightly trunk seems to be updated daily. 2. The 9.04 builds seem to, for some reason not be being updated on this page. 3. There aren't many 4.0 releases being built. Then I go to here - http://ci.apache.org/projects/ofbiz/archive/snapshots/ - and I see a slightly different picture: 1. The trunk builds aren't really archives they're simply another copy after it was moved over. -- The archives are there though from when HotWax was managing it. 2. The 9.04 builds seem to really be the ones that we'd want on that first page. Now, since I know that this release and the downloads are super important to you, I'm really more interested in hearing you: 1. Lay out the way you'd like to see these pages work. 2. Even show some examples of other projects that you _do_ like I hope this helps Ruth - as Adrian and Jacopo mentioned, what you've sent here is just a whine, not a helpful way for anyone to improve. Put in the time and help us to make it more like you like and I'm sure you'll be more pleased with the result. Btw, all of those other options are not the same type of community driven projects as the ASF, so it's hard to manage the same way. When commercial interests are more intertwined with the project, there are definitely benefits (as well as drawbacks), so let's at least acknowledge those. Cheers, Ruppert On Feb 5, 2010, at 10:23 AM, Adrian Crum wrote: If there is a problem with the OFBiz site, it would be helpful to know what it is. Remarks like this are not helpful. -Adrian Ruth Hoffman wrote: This was meant as a sarcastic, "I can't believe this kind of thing keeps falling through the cracks", kind of remark. No wonder new users shy away. I mean, no wonder new users run as fast as their browsers will take them to OpenBravo, OpenERP, Magento... Regards, Ruth Find me on the web at http://www.myofbiz.com or Google keyword "myofbiz" ruth.hoff...@myofbiz.com
Re: What I would like to see [was: Re: Nice job on keeping the download site up-to-date.]
Thanks for the feedback. I'm going to think on it this weekend and will try and come up with some ideas of how this could work better. If you could show me some sites that you do like, that would be a big help - then I can see how to get that working in our world. Cheers, Ruppert On Feb 5, 2010, at 12:13 PM, Ruth Hoffman wrote: > Hi Tim: > Since you asked: > > I'd like to have a download site where any user, especially a new user, could > visit, feel comfortable about the project (and life in general), and then > proceed about the business of downloading code. Easy, simple and painless. > Yes, the nightly builds are a HUGE step in that direction. Thanks again to > everyone who makes this possible. But, lets put that in perspective: That > only makes the process of downloading easier. > > I'd also like to have a seat on the project's oversight group. I don't > understand how a project of this magnitude can continue to grow and prosper > without business oriented people helping to guide it. The oversight group > (whoever they happen to be) is like a bunch of very clever "foxes" guarding > the "chicken coop". (Where the "chicken coop" is the code base.) There is so > much more to making software successful than anything clever "foxes" will > ever have time to consider. > > Actually, I take that back. If I'm part of the committer's group, I won't be > able to "whine" and "troll" from the comfort of my desktop anymore. > > Regards, > Ruth > > > Tim Ruppert wrote: >> Thanks - again that was super helpful. >> I took the time to lay it out like a towel what was there, what looks to be >> broken when we migrated to the ASF infra and no you wont' go thru it? There >> are some obvious spots for you to say something or point to projects you >> like, but you just continue to roll your eyes. I didn't push for or want >> this move to the ASF infra - but I'm still trying to help here. >> >> What else do you want here Ruth? >> Cheers, >> Ruppert >> >> On Feb 5, 2010, at 10:46 AM, Ruth Hoffman wrote: >> >> >>> Hi Tim: >>> I've been through this already. Several times over. >>> >>> All I can say at this point is, no one is minding the store. I just don't >>> get it: You guys spend hours agonizing over how and where to put spaces in >>> Java files, yet you can't see the most obvious flaws in how OFBiz does >>> business. >>> >>> Oh well... >>> >>> Regards, >>> >>> Ruth >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Tim Ruppert wrote: >>> Ruth, I'm sure there's some good that could come out of your message - so against my general nature of responding to this type of attitude, I'm going to try and help you phrase this in a way that will help us help infra to try to meet what you're looking for. Here's what I see when I go to the site(s): http://ci.apache.org/projects/ofbiz/snapshots/ - not downloading and testing anything - just looking at what I see: 1. The nightly trunk seems to be updated daily. 2. The 9.04 builds seem to, for some reason not be being updated on this page. 3. There aren't many 4.0 releases being built. Then I go to here - http://ci.apache.org/projects/ofbiz/archive/snapshots/ - and I see a slightly different picture: 1. The trunk builds aren't really archives they're simply another copy after it was moved over. -- The archives are there though from when HotWax was managing it. 2. The 9.04 builds seem to really be the ones that we'd want on that first page. Now, since I know that this release and the downloads are super important to you, I'm really more interested in hearing you: 1. Lay out the way you'd like to see these pages work. 2. Even show some examples of other projects that you _do_ like I hope this helps Ruth - as Adrian and Jacopo mentioned, what you've sent here is just a whine, not a helpful way for anyone to improve. Put in the time and help us to make it more like you like and I'm sure you'll be more pleased with the result. Btw, all of those other options are not the same type of community driven projects as the ASF, so it's hard to manage the same way. When commercial interests are more intertwined with the project, there are definitely benefits (as well as drawbacks), so let's at least acknowledge those. Cheers, Ruppert On Feb 5, 2010, at 10:23 AM, Adrian Crum wrote: > If there is a problem with the OFBiz site, it would be helpful to know > what it is. Remarks like this are not helpful. > > -Adrian > > Ruth Hoffman wrote: > >> This was meant as a sarcastic, "I can't believe this kind of thing keeps >> falling through the cracks", kind of remark. No wonder new users shy >> away. I mean, no wonder new users run as fast as their browsers will >> take t
Re: What I would like to see [was: Re: Nice job on keeping the download site up-to-date.]
You're definitely right about that :) Cheers, Ruppert On Feb 5, 2010, at 12:13 PM, Ruth Hoffman wrote: > Actually, I take that back. If I'm part of the committer's group, I won't be > able to "whine" and "troll" from the comfort of my desktop anymore. smime.p7s Description: S/MIME cryptographic signature
What I would like to see [was: Re: Nice job on keeping the download site up-to-date.]
Hi Tim: Since you asked: I'd like to have a download site where any user, especially a new user, could visit, feel comfortable about the project (and life in general), and then proceed about the business of downloading code. Easy, simple and painless. Yes, the nightly builds are a HUGE step in that direction. Thanks again to everyone who makes this possible. But, lets put that in perspective: That only makes the process of downloading easier. I'd also like to have a seat on the project's oversight group. I don't understand how a project of this magnitude can continue to grow and prosper without business oriented people helping to guide it. The oversight group (whoever they happen to be) is like a bunch of very clever "foxes" guarding the "chicken coop". (Where the "chicken coop" is the code base.) There is so much more to making software successful than anything clever "foxes" will ever have time to consider. Actually, I take that back. If I'm part of the committer's group, I won't be able to "whine" and "troll" from the comfort of my desktop anymore. Regards, Ruth Tim Ruppert wrote: Thanks - again that was super helpful. I took the time to lay it out like a towel what was there, what looks to be broken when we migrated to the ASF infra and no you wont' go thru it? There are some obvious spots for you to say something or point to projects you like, but you just continue to roll your eyes. I didn't push for or want this move to the ASF infra - but I'm still trying to help here. What else do you want here Ruth? Cheers, Ruppert On Feb 5, 2010, at 10:46 AM, Ruth Hoffman wrote: Hi Tim: I've been through this already. Several times over. All I can say at this point is, no one is minding the store. I just don't get it: You guys spend hours agonizing over how and where to put spaces in Java files, yet you can't see the most obvious flaws in how OFBiz does business. Oh well... Regards, Ruth Tim Ruppert wrote: Ruth, I'm sure there's some good that could come out of your message - so against my general nature of responding to this type of attitude, I'm going to try and help you phrase this in a way that will help us help infra to try to meet what you're looking for. Here's what I see when I go to the site(s): http://ci.apache.org/projects/ofbiz/snapshots/ - not downloading and testing anything - just looking at what I see: 1. The nightly trunk seems to be updated daily. 2. The 9.04 builds seem to, for some reason not be being updated on this page. 3. There aren't many 4.0 releases being built. Then I go to here - http://ci.apache.org/projects/ofbiz/archive/snapshots/ - and I see a slightly different picture: 1. The trunk builds aren't really archives they're simply another copy after it was moved over. -- The archives are there though from when HotWax was managing it. 2. The 9.04 builds seem to really be the ones that we'd want on that first page. Now, since I know that this release and the downloads are super important to you, I'm really more interested in hearing you: 1. Lay out the way you'd like to see these pages work. 2. Even show some examples of other projects that you _do_ like I hope this helps Ruth - as Adrian and Jacopo mentioned, what you've sent here is just a whine, not a helpful way for anyone to improve. Put in the time and help us to make it more like you like and I'm sure you'll be more pleased with the result. Btw, all of those other options are not the same type of community driven projects as the ASF, so it's hard to manage the same way. When commercial interests are more intertwined with the project, there are definitely benefits (as well as drawbacks), so let's at least acknowledge those. Cheers, Ruppert On Feb 5, 2010, at 10:23 AM, Adrian Crum wrote: If there is a problem with the OFBiz site, it would be helpful to know what it is. Remarks like this are not helpful. -Adrian Ruth Hoffman wrote: This was meant as a sarcastic, "I can't believe this kind of thing keeps falling through the cracks", kind of remark. No wonder new users shy away. I mean, no wonder new users run as fast as their browsers will take them to OpenBravo, OpenERP, Magento... Regards, Ruth Find me on the web at http://www.myofbiz.com or Google keyword "myofbiz" ruth.hoff...@myofbiz.com
Re: Nice job on keeping the download site up-to-date.
Thanks - again that was super helpful. I took the time to lay it out like a towel what was there, what looks to be broken when we migrated to the ASF infra and no you wont' go thru it? There are some obvious spots for you to say something or point to projects you like, but you just continue to roll your eyes. I didn't push for or want this move to the ASF infra - but I'm still trying to help here. What else do you want here Ruth? Cheers, Ruppert On Feb 5, 2010, at 10:46 AM, Ruth Hoffman wrote: > Hi Tim: > I've been through this already. Several times over. > > All I can say at this point is, no one is minding the store. I just don't get > it: You guys spend hours agonizing over how and where to put spaces in Java > files, yet you can't see the most obvious flaws in how OFBiz does business. > > Oh well... > > Regards, > > Ruth > > > > > Tim Ruppert wrote: >> Ruth, I'm sure there's some good that could come out of your message - so >> against my general nature of responding to this type of attitude, I'm going >> to try and help you phrase this in a way that will help us help infra to try >> to meet what you're looking for. Here's what I see when I go to the site(s): >> >> http://ci.apache.org/projects/ofbiz/snapshots/ - not downloading and testing >> anything - just looking at what I see: >> >> 1. The nightly trunk seems to be updated daily. >> 2. The 9.04 builds seem to, for some reason not be being updated on this >> page. >> 3. There aren't many 4.0 releases being built. >> >> Then I go to here - http://ci.apache.org/projects/ofbiz/archive/snapshots/ - >> and I see a slightly different picture: >> >> 1. The trunk builds aren't really archives they're simply another copy after >> it was moved over. -- The archives are there though from when HotWax was >> managing it. >> 2. The 9.04 builds seem to really be the ones that we'd want on that first >> page. >> >> Now, since I know that this release and the downloads are super important to >> you, I'm really more interested in hearing you: >> >> 1. Lay out the way you'd like to see these pages work. >> 2. Even show some examples of other projects that you _do_ like >> >> I hope this helps Ruth - as Adrian and Jacopo mentioned, what you've sent >> here is just a whine, not a helpful way for anyone to improve. Put in the >> time and help us to make it more like you like and I'm sure you'll be more >> pleased with the result. Btw, all of those other options are not the same >> type of community driven projects as the ASF, so it's hard to manage the >> same way. When commercial interests are more intertwined with the project, >> there are definitely benefits (as well as drawbacks), so let's at least >> acknowledge those. >> >> Cheers, >> Ruppert >> >> On Feb 5, 2010, at 10:23 AM, Adrian Crum wrote: >> >> >>> If there is a problem with the OFBiz site, it would be helpful to know what >>> it is. Remarks like this are not helpful. >>> >>> -Adrian >>> >>> Ruth Hoffman wrote: >>> This was meant as a sarcastic, "I can't believe this kind of thing keeps falling through the cracks", kind of remark. No wonder new users shy away. I mean, no wonder new users run as fast as their browsers will take them to OpenBravo, OpenERP, Magento... Regards, Ruth Find me on the web at http://www.myofbiz.com or Google keyword "myofbiz" ruth.hoff...@myofbiz.com >> >> smime.p7s Description: S/MIME cryptographic signature
Re: Nice job on keeping the download site up-to-date.
Hi Jacques: That would be really nice, but I'm not even at that stage yet. My problem is with the download web page. There has been a major regression here and no one has said a word (until me, right now) about it. That leads me to say: "Who is minding the store?". This is the second or third thing anyone interested in OFBiz sees...after the splash page. It's a mess of "stuff" that no one in their "right" (or "left") mind would bother to spend too much time trying to decipher. Worst case: A prospective user leaves the site (with a slight hint suggesting that maybe the code is as disorganized as the web page) and downloads some other project's code. Bye-bye prospect. Wouldn't touch it with a 10 foot pole. Best case: A prospect user will end up downloading the trunk code, because, on this web page, all roads lead to a trunk download. Then, well how much fun is that going to be for a new user who doesn't have a clue where to start? Bye-bye prospect. I tried, but code isn't stable enough for my tastes. And some wonder why there isn't more OFBiz activity out there. Well, I for one am pretty sure I know why. Regards, Ruth Jacques Le Roux wrote: Some ASF projects are very sucessful yet with strong competition, for instance ServiceMix vs Mule, Geronimo, vs..., etc. We may mimic some of the ways they are doing things. For instance, some time ago Chris Snow asked for a better SEO, I'm not quite sure but I think it'a about exporting the wiki and make Google (and other SEs) knows about it... Jacques From: "Tim Ruppert" Ruth, I'm sure there's some good that could come out of your message - so against my general nature of responding to this type of attitude, I'm going to try and help you phrase this in a way that will help us help infra to try to meet what you're looking for. Here's what I see when I go to the site(s): http://ci.apache.org/projects/ofbiz/snapshots/ - not downloading and testing anything - just looking at what I see: 1. The nightly trunk seems to be updated daily. 2. The 9.04 builds seem to, for some reason not be being updated on this page. 3. There aren't many 4.0 releases being built. Then I go to here - http://ci.apache.org/projects/ofbiz/archive/snapshots/ - and I see a slightly different picture: 1. The trunk builds aren't really archives they're simply another copy after it was moved over. -- The archives are there though from when HotWax was managing it. 2. The 9.04 builds seem to really be the ones that we'd want on that first page. Now, since I know that this release and the downloads are super important to you, I'm really more interested in hearing you: 1. Lay out the way you'd like to see these pages work. 2. Even show some examples of other projects that you _do_ like I hope this helps Ruth - as Adrian and Jacopo mentioned, what you've sent here is just a whine, not a helpful way for anyone to improve. Put in the time and help us to make it more like you like and I'm sure you'll be more pleased with the result. Btw, all of those other options are not the same type of community driven projects as the ASF, so it's hard to manage the same way. When commercial interests are more intertwined with the project, there are definitely benefits (as well as drawbacks), so let's at least acknowledge those. Cheers, Ruppert On Feb 5, 2010, at 10:23 AM, Adrian Crum wrote: If there is a problem with the OFBiz site, it would be helpful to know what it is. Remarks like this are not helpful. -Adrian Ruth Hoffman wrote: This was meant as a sarcastic, "I can't believe this kind of thing keeps falling through the cracks", kind of remark. No wonder new users shy away. I mean, no wonder new users run as fast as their browsers will take them to OpenBravo, OpenERP, Magento... Regards, Ruth Find me on the web at http://www.myofbiz.com or Google keyword "myofbiz" ruth.hoff...@myofbiz.com
Re: Nice job on keeping the download site up-to-date.
Some ASF projects are very sucessful yet with strong competition, for instance ServiceMix vs Mule, Geronimo, vs..., etc. We may mimic some of the ways they are doing things. For instance, some time ago Chris Snow asked for a better SEO, I'm not quite sure but I think it'a about exporting the wiki and make Google (and other SEs) knows about it... Jacques From: "Tim Ruppert" Ruth, I'm sure there's some good that could come out of your message - so against my general nature of responding to this type of attitude, I'm going to try and help you phrase this in a way that will help us help infra to try to meet what you're looking for. Here's what I see when I go to the site(s): http://ci.apache.org/projects/ofbiz/snapshots/ - not downloading and testing anything - just looking at what I see: 1. The nightly trunk seems to be updated daily. 2. The 9.04 builds seem to, for some reason not be being updated on this page. 3. There aren't many 4.0 releases being built. Then I go to here - http://ci.apache.org/projects/ofbiz/archive/snapshots/ - and I see a slightly different picture: 1. The trunk builds aren't really archives they're simply another copy after it was moved over. -- The archives are there though from when HotWax was managing it. 2. The 9.04 builds seem to really be the ones that we'd want on that first page. Now, since I know that this release and the downloads are super important to you, I'm really more interested in hearing you: 1. Lay out the way you'd like to see these pages work. 2. Even show some examples of other projects that you _do_ like I hope this helps Ruth - as Adrian and Jacopo mentioned, what you've sent here is just a whine, not a helpful way for anyone to improve. Put in the time and help us to make it more like you like and I'm sure you'll be more pleased with the result. Btw, all of those other options are not the same type of community driven projects as the ASF, so it's hard to manage the same way. When commercial interests are more intertwined with the project, there are definitely benefits (as well as drawbacks), so let's at least acknowledge those. Cheers, Ruppert On Feb 5, 2010, at 10:23 AM, Adrian Crum wrote: If there is a problem with the OFBiz site, it would be helpful to know what it is. Remarks like this are not helpful. -Adrian Ruth Hoffman wrote: This was meant as a sarcastic, "I can't believe this kind of thing keeps falling through the cracks", kind of remark. No wonder new users shy away. I mean, no wonder new users run as fast as their browsers will take them to OpenBravo, OpenERP, Magento... Regards, Ruth Find me on the web at http://www.myofbiz.com or Google keyword "myofbiz" ruth.hoff...@myofbiz.com
Re: Nice job on keeping the download site up-to-date.
Hi Tim: I've been through this already. Several times over. All I can say at this point is, no one is minding the store. I just don't get it: You guys spend hours agonizing over how and where to put spaces in Java files, yet you can't see the most obvious flaws in how OFBiz does business. Oh well... Regards, Ruth Tim Ruppert wrote: Ruth, I'm sure there's some good that could come out of your message - so against my general nature of responding to this type of attitude, I'm going to try and help you phrase this in a way that will help us help infra to try to meet what you're looking for. Here's what I see when I go to the site(s): http://ci.apache.org/projects/ofbiz/snapshots/ - not downloading and testing anything - just looking at what I see: 1. The nightly trunk seems to be updated daily. 2. The 9.04 builds seem to, for some reason not be being updated on this page. 3. There aren't many 4.0 releases being built. Then I go to here - http://ci.apache.org/projects/ofbiz/archive/snapshots/ - and I see a slightly different picture: 1. The trunk builds aren't really archives they're simply another copy after it was moved over. -- The archives are there though from when HotWax was managing it. 2. The 9.04 builds seem to really be the ones that we'd want on that first page. Now, since I know that this release and the downloads are super important to you, I'm really more interested in hearing you: 1. Lay out the way you'd like to see these pages work. 2. Even show some examples of other projects that you _do_ like I hope this helps Ruth - as Adrian and Jacopo mentioned, what you've sent here is just a whine, not a helpful way for anyone to improve. Put in the time and help us to make it more like you like and I'm sure you'll be more pleased with the result. Btw, all of those other options are not the same type of community driven projects as the ASF, so it's hard to manage the same way. When commercial interests are more intertwined with the project, there are definitely benefits (as well as drawbacks), so let's at least acknowledge those. Cheers, Ruppert On Feb 5, 2010, at 10:23 AM, Adrian Crum wrote: If there is a problem with the OFBiz site, it would be helpful to know what it is. Remarks like this are not helpful. -Adrian Ruth Hoffman wrote: This was meant as a sarcastic, "I can't believe this kind of thing keeps falling through the cracks", kind of remark. No wonder new users shy away. I mean, no wonder new users run as fast as their browsers will take them to OpenBravo, OpenERP, Magento... Regards, Ruth Find me on the web at http://www.myofbiz.com or Google keyword "myofbiz" ruth.hoff...@myofbiz.com
Re: Nice job on keeping the download site up-to-date.
HI Adrian: Welcome to my world. Ruth Adrian Crum wrote: If there is a problem with the OFBiz site, it would be helpful to know what it is. Remarks like this are not helpful. -Adrian Ruth Hoffman wrote: This was meant as a sarcastic, "I can't believe this kind of thing keeps falling through the cracks", kind of remark. No wonder new users shy away. I mean, no wonder new users run as fast as their browsers will take them to OpenBravo, OpenERP, Magento... Regards, Ruth Find me on the web at http://www.myofbiz.com or Google keyword "myofbiz" ruth.hoff...@myofbiz.com
Re: Nice job on keeping the download site up-to-date.
Ruth, I'm sure there's some good that could come out of your message - so against my general nature of responding to this type of attitude, I'm going to try and help you phrase this in a way that will help us help infra to try to meet what you're looking for. Here's what I see when I go to the site(s): http://ci.apache.org/projects/ofbiz/snapshots/ - not downloading and testing anything - just looking at what I see: 1. The nightly trunk seems to be updated daily. 2. The 9.04 builds seem to, for some reason not be being updated on this page. 3. There aren't many 4.0 releases being built. Then I go to here - http://ci.apache.org/projects/ofbiz/archive/snapshots/ - and I see a slightly different picture: 1. The trunk builds aren't really archives they're simply another copy after it was moved over. -- The archives are there though from when HotWax was managing it. 2. The 9.04 builds seem to really be the ones that we'd want on that first page. Now, since I know that this release and the downloads are super important to you, I'm really more interested in hearing you: 1. Lay out the way you'd like to see these pages work. 2. Even show some examples of other projects that you _do_ like I hope this helps Ruth - as Adrian and Jacopo mentioned, what you've sent here is just a whine, not a helpful way for anyone to improve. Put in the time and help us to make it more like you like and I'm sure you'll be more pleased with the result. Btw, all of those other options are not the same type of community driven projects as the ASF, so it's hard to manage the same way. When commercial interests are more intertwined with the project, there are definitely benefits (as well as drawbacks), so let's at least acknowledge those. Cheers, Ruppert On Feb 5, 2010, at 10:23 AM, Adrian Crum wrote: > If there is a problem with the OFBiz site, it would be helpful to know what > it is. Remarks like this are not helpful. > > -Adrian > > Ruth Hoffman wrote: >> This was meant as a sarcastic, "I can't believe this kind of thing keeps >> falling through the cracks", kind of remark. No wonder new users shy away. I >> mean, no wonder new users run as fast as their browsers will take them to >> OpenBravo, OpenERP, Magento... >> Regards, >> Ruth >> >> Find me on the web at http://www.myofbiz.com or Google keyword "myofbiz" >> ruth.hoff...@myofbiz.com smime.p7s Description: S/MIME cryptographic signature
Re: Nice job on keeping the download site up-to-date.
please submit a patch. Jacopo On Feb 5, 2010, at 6:10 PM, Ruth Hoffman wrote: > This was meant as a sarcastic, "I can't believe this kind of thing keeps > falling through the cracks", kind of remark. No wonder new users shy away. I > mean, no wonder new users run as fast as their browsers will take them to > OpenBravo, OpenERP, Magento... > > Regards, > Ruth > > Find me on the web at http://www.myofbiz.com or Google keyword "myofbiz" > ruth.hoff...@myofbiz.com
Re: Nice job on keeping the download site up-to-date.
If there is a problem with the OFBiz site, it would be helpful to know what it is. Remarks like this are not helpful. -Adrian Ruth Hoffman wrote: This was meant as a sarcastic, "I can't believe this kind of thing keeps falling through the cracks", kind of remark. No wonder new users shy away. I mean, no wonder new users run as fast as their browsers will take them to OpenBravo, OpenERP, Magento... Regards, Ruth Find me on the web at http://www.myofbiz.com or Google keyword "myofbiz" ruth.hoff...@myofbiz.com
Nice job on keeping the download site up-to-date.
This was meant as a sarcastic, "I can't believe this kind of thing keeps falling through the cracks", kind of remark. No wonder new users shy away. I mean, no wonder new users run as fast as their browsers will take them to OpenBravo, OpenERP, Magento... Regards, Ruth Find me on the web at http://www.myofbiz.com or Google keyword "myofbiz" ruth.hoff...@myofbiz.com
