subject:"Re\: OFBiz.org site\: easier navigation to Service Providers and End Users"

On Feb 24, 2014, at 1:29 PM, Pierre Smits  wrote:

> Furthermore, I would suggest to include the disclaimer (at least at the
> top) regarding the aspect of not endorsing/favouring any company

+1

Jacopo

Re: OFBiz.org site: easier navigation to Service Providers and End Users

On Feb 24, 2014, at 1:29 PM, Pierre Smits  wrote:

> So leaving that and similar regarding PMC and Contributors out
> of the company description would serve the 'unbiased' aspect of the project
> better.

I definitely agree that the fact that a company has employees that are 
committers in the project should not be relevant for the decision by the PMC to 
include it (or not) in the page; however I would leave it to the company to 
decide what content to include in its description (possibly mentioning a 
committer or not) based on company's strategy.

Jacopo

Re: OFBiz.org site: easier navigation to Service Providers and End Users

2014-02-24 Thread Pierre Smits

Hi Jacopo,

I like the outline of the proposed policy description and solution (the
page).

However, I do have to remark that companies can't be committers as per ASF
regulations. So leaving that and similar regarding PMC and Contributors out
of the company description would serve the 'unbiased' aspect of the project
better.

Furthermore, I would suggest to include the disclaimer (at least at the
top) regarding the aspect of not endorsing/favouring any company as per
your earlier posting in this thread.
Starting from a blank page would surely have a cleansing effect.

Lastly, thanks for taking the time to address this issue swiftly.

Regards,

Pierre Smits

*ORRTIZ.COM *
Services & Solutions for Cloud-
Based Manufacturing, Professional
Services and Retail & Trade
http://www.orrtiz.com

Re: OFBiz.org site: easier navigation to Service Providers and End Users

On Feb 24, 2014, at 12:12 PM, Jacques Le Roux  
wrote:

> What about the "Apache OFBiz User List" page, notably the "Products and 
> Projects based on Apache OFBiz" section?

We could apply a similar pattern to the one we are discussing for the "service 
provider" list.

Jacopo

Re: OFBiz.org site: easier navigation to Service Providers and End Users

On Feb 24, 2014, at 12:12 PM, Jacques Le Roux  
wrote:

> Questions:
> The "Apache OFBiz Service 
> Providers"https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OFBIZ/Apache+OFBiz+Service+Providers
>  will be removed, right?

We can leave the page there; at least until we are happy with the new one (or 
even after). 

> Should we (PMC) not first review the current descriptions and reuse them if 
> possible?

I would prefer to start from scratch with the new process and wait for company 
proposals; in the meantime the current page will still be usable as is now.

Jacopo

Re: OFBiz.org site: easier navigation to Service Providers and End Users

2014-02-24 Thread Jacques Le Roux


Thanks Jacopo,

This seems indeed the better way to go for service providers. I agree also 
about the better template sent afterwards.

The reasons I agree:
* It would be now companies responsibility for supplied information
* The PMC can check and guarantee the quality and veracity of supplied 
information

If others agree, we need now to define the maximum number of characters allowed 
for companies description

Questions:
The "Apache OFBiz Service Providers" 
https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OFBIZ/Apache+OFBiz+Service+Providers will be 
removed, right?
Should we (PMC) not first review the current descriptions and reuse them if possible? On the other hand, deleting the page and beginning anew could 
have some advantages. Mostly removing deprecated/not-maintained information and no have the responsibility of the companies description contents if we 
have to adapt them (like having to change it because of length, content, etc.)


What about the "Apache OFBiz User List" page, notably the "Products and Projects 
based on Apache OFBiz" section?

Jacques

Le 24/02/2014 11:26, Jacopo Cappellato a écrit :

On Feb 20, 2014, at 10:20 AM, Jacopo Cappellato 
 wrote:


* I would like to review examples from other ASF projects doing the same; in 
this thread it was mentioned that several other projects are doing the same; I 
don't have time to research but if a volunteer could provide a list of projects 
and URLs of such documents I would be happy to review them

I have reviewed all the URL with examples of other ASF projects that you all 
sent me (thanks) and here is my preference:

1) the (new) page containing "service providers for OFBiz" will be hosted in 
the OFBiz website as a static html page (not in the Wiki, but we could leave the existing 
one there): this means that only committers will be able to edit it
2) the page will have a list of companies sorted in alphabetical order; only 
the name of the company (clickable, opens in a new browser tab the company's 
website) and a short description are allowed (we will define the maximum number 
of characters allowed); in the description the company can mention any 
information they like (committers, services provided, location, etc...)
3) in order to appear in the page, a company will have to send a mail to the 
OFBiz PMC, with the exact text to be included in the page
4) the PMC will review the proposal, will check if the company respects the ASF 
guidelines (trademarks etc...) and then will start a private vote; if the vote 
will pass (majority, not veto) then the company will be added to the page; if 
the vote will not pass, the PMC will prepare a response with detailed reasons 
for the rejection; of course the company could always fix them and resubmit a 
proposal
5) over time the PMC may review the list and vote for the removal of some 
companies (if they violates ASF guidelines, if they are no longer operating on 
OFBiz etc...)

I like the text in the Cayenne site (http://cayenne.apache.org/support.html ); 
following a similar template the OFBiz page could look like this:

==
*Commercial Support And Consulting*

If your company also provides commercial services supporting Apache OFBiz, 
please drop a note to the OFBiz PMC (private at ofbiz dot apache dot org), 
we'll review your request and add a note to this page.

• AAA. This is the description of the first company in the list.
• AAB. This is the description of the second company in the list.
• AAC. This is the description of the third company in the list.
==

Jacopo

Re: OFBiz.org site: easier navigation to Service Providers and End Users


A slightly better template for the page: now it is clearly stated that the list 
is sorted by alphabetical order and not relevance.

==
*Commercial Support And Consulting*

These companies provide professional services around Apache OFBiz (sorted by 
alphabetical order)
If your company also provides commercial services supporting Apache OFBiz, 
please drop a note to the OFBiz PMC (private at ofbiz dot apache dot org), 
we'll review your request and add a note to this page.

• AAA. This is the description of the first company in the list.
• AAB. This is the description of the second company in the list.
• AAC. This is the description of the third company in the list.
==

Jacopo

Re: OFBiz.org site: easier navigation to Service Providers and End Users

On Feb 20, 2014, at 10:20 AM, Jacopo Cappellato 
 wrote:

> * I would like to review examples from other ASF projects doing the same; in 
> this thread it was mentioned that several other projects are doing the same; 
> I don't have time to research but if a volunteer could provide a list of 
> projects and URLs of such documents I would be happy to review them

I have reviewed all the URL with examples of other ASF projects that you all 
sent me (thanks) and here is my preference:

1) the (new) page containing "service providers for OFBiz" will be hosted in 
the OFBiz website as a static html page (not in the Wiki, but we could leave 
the existing one there): this means that only committers will be able to edit it
2) the page will have a list of companies sorted in alphabetical order; only 
the name of the company (clickable, opens in a new browser tab the company's 
website) and a short description are allowed (we will define the maximum number 
of characters allowed); in the description the company can mention any 
information they like (committers, services provided, location, etc...)
3) in order to appear in the page, a company will have to send a mail to the 
OFBiz PMC, with the exact text to be included in the page
4) the PMC will review the proposal, will check if the company respects the ASF 
guidelines (trademarks etc...) and then will start a private vote; if the vote 
will pass (majority, not veto) then the company will be added to the page; if 
the vote will not pass, the PMC will prepare a response with detailed reasons 
for the rejection; of course the company could always fix them and resubmit a 
proposal
5) over time the PMC may review the list and vote for the removal of some 
companies (if they violates ASF guidelines, if they are no longer operating on 
OFBiz etc...)

I like the text in the Cayenne site (http://cayenne.apache.org/support.html ); 
following a similar template the OFBiz page could look like this:

==
*Commercial Support And Consulting*

If your company also provides commercial services supporting Apache OFBiz, 
please drop a note to the OFBiz PMC (private at ofbiz dot apache dot org), 
we'll review your request and add a note to this page.

• AAA. This is the description of the first company in the list.
• AAB. This is the description of the second company in the list.
• AAC. This is the description of the third company in the list.
==

Jacopo

Re: OFBiz.org site: easier navigation to Service Providers and End Users

2014-02-21 Thread Pierre Smits

The reply by Jacopo definitely reads more like trying to conceive consensus.

Maybe it would be good to contact the PMC chairs of the other project (and
perhaps also COMDEV) to see what their policy is on this subject) and
achieve alignment regarding ruling.

Regards,


Pierre Smits

*ORRTIZ.COM *
Services & Solutions for Cloud-
Based Manufacturing, Professional
Services and Retail & Trade
http://www.orrtiz.com


On Thu, Feb 20, 2014 at 10:20 AM, Jacopo Cappellato <
jacopo.cappell...@hotwaxmedia.com> wrote:

> I guess that you could create a patch with the proposed changes and then
> create a Jira ticket, then start a voting thread in the dev list.
>
> Before we go into it, I anticipate here some conditions that I think are
> important:
> * I would like to review examples from other ASF projects doing the same;
> in this thread it was mentioned that several other projects are doing the
> same; I don't have time to research but if a volunteer could provide a list
> of projects and URLs of such documents I would be happy to review them
> * remove from the documents any links to external sites that are not
> strictly following the ASF trademark guidelines; this includes all the
> sites containing the OFBiz name in the domain (e.g. ofbiz.info)
> * the link from the OFBiz website should have enough information to
> clearly show that the referenced documents are not under the control of the
> PMC, but instead they are "open" documents at the disposal of the public
> * the same disclaimer is added at the top of each page
> * the documents open in a different tab (i.e. they use the "target"
> attribute)
> * they are not added to the top navigation bar; my preference would be to
> add them to the body of the index page, in this paragraph:
>
> "For answers to your questions you might find the following documents
> useful:
> * Documentation
> * Documentation - Project Overview
> * Documentation - Getting Started"
>
> * we define clear rules on the format and content of these pages: define
> the column and content that each field can contain, the order of the
> entries, define if there are minimal requirements for publishing a
> company/site, define the amount of text each field can have, where external
> links can be defined
>
> Jacopo
>
> On Feb 19, 2014, at 11:32 PM, Nick Rosser  wrote:
>
> > With Hans joining the "yes" vote can we go ahead and action the
> originally proposed change?
> >
> > Nick
> >
> > On 2/19/2014 6:08 AM, Jacques Le Roux wrote:
> >> BTW, last thought on this about external sites monitored for violation:
> should we not rather remove than monitor them? Then it would not penalize
> other sites...
> >>
> >> This done we could block the page for users who would like to exceed
> their rights to edit (though I have still to understand how that works, see
> for instance Pierre's request about Roadmap page access)
> >>
> >> Jacques
> >>
> >> Le 19/02/2014 11:26, Jacques Le Roux a écrit :
> >>> Le 19/02/2014 07:38, Jacopo Cappellato a écrit :
>  On Feb 18, 2014, at 11:42 PM, Jacques Le Roux <
> jacques.le.r...@les7arts.com> wrote:
> 
> > Please could you point the issues you see there?
>  The information published in the OFBiz website is official and must
> be endorsed and approved by the OFBiz PMC before its publication.
>  The information in the Wiki is not; specifically, we do not have
> clear rules that govern the "users" and "providers" list: I can add/move my
> company to the top, someone could decide that only companies with
> committers can appear there (I see now that there are several companies in
> the page that mention the term "contributors" even if this is not a role
> assigned by the OFBiz PMC), I see links to external sites that the ASF is
> monitoring for violations to the ASF and OFBiz trademarks, in general I see
> pages that are a mess and clearly they can't be officially endorsed by the
> project.
> >>>
> >>> Having links to external sites monitored for violations by the ASF is
> clearly an issue which prevents to endorse these pages and link them from
> the main site.
> >>>
> >>> Some time ago, I added a note on top of the
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OFBIZ/Apache+OFBiz+Service+Providerspage
> >>> < independent committers and companies with committer(s) at the top of the
> list. Else no order is specifically required so far (we will certainly
> alphabetically order the lists later), thank you>>
> >>>
> >>> Actually, though I wrote "We (OFBiz committers)" it was my own
> decision to monitor and keep this page as clean as possible. Contributor is
> indeed not an official role. It was added by someone and I decided to keep
> the idea. Because it allows to separate contributors from committers in
> this column.
> >>> Maybe the title of the column is not clear?
> >>> Or maybe, as it was before, we should keep only PMC members (IIRW,
> Adrian also added the PMC member role in this list and I followed) an

Re: OFBiz.org site: easier navigation to Service Providers and End Users

2014-02-20 Thread Pierre Smits

I would say that not complying with/to ASF regulations and guidelines is a
sure path to lose merit in the community.

Pierre Smits

*ORRTIZ.COM *
Services & Solutions for Cloud-
Based Manufacturing, Professional
Services and Retail & Trade
http://www.orrtiz.com


On Thu, Feb 20, 2014 at 11:47 AM, Jacques Le Roux <
jacques.le.r...@les7arts.com> wrote:

> This is known for long and we (mostly I) have asked Hans to clean it many
> times
> He did some for (one of?) his twitter account https://twitter.com/apache_
> ofbiz though I always wondered if this is really "casher", but who cares?
> The same question comes for https://twitter.com/ofbiz_biz
> Unfortunately, etc.
>
> The last time I asked for I got good feedbacks for most sites, so I think
> we can come to a consensus
>
> Jacques
> PS: please don't believe that I like to pass so much time in such admin
> tasks :(
>
>
> Le 20/02/2014 09:20, Pierre Smits a écrit :
>
>> Though the site of Hans Bakker may suggest that it is an official OFBiz
>> site, it is not.
>>
>> Furthermore, it shows wrong information regarding committers in the
>> providers overview/map.
>>
>> Regard,
>>
>> Pierre Smits
>>
>> *ORRTIZ.COM *
>>
>> Services & Solutions for Cloud-
>> Based Manufacturing, Professional
>> Services and Retail & Trade
>> http://www.orrtiz.com
>>
>>

Re: OFBiz.org site: easier navigation to Service Providers and End Users

2014-02-20 Thread Pierre Smits

Not only those, but also:

   - any23
   - APR
   - Cassandra


Pierre Smits

*ORRTIZ.COM *
Services & Solutions for Cloud-
Based Manufacturing, Professional
Services and Retail & Trade
http://www.orrtiz.com

Re: OFBiz.org site: easier navigation to Service Providers and End Users

2014-02-20 Thread Nick Rosser


Three Apache project examples that have "service provider" page:

Clearly lists "paid support" options, with links to integrators: 
http://cayenne.apache.org/support.html


Link from main page to "Professional Services": 
http://cocoon.apache.org/1271_1_1.html


This lists committers and contributors with a link to the organization: 
http://accumulo.apache.org/people.html


Nick

On 2/20/2014 7:31 AM, Nick Rosser wrote:
I didn't do an exhaustive search but the Active-MQ project has a link 
to "users":


   http://activemq.apache.org/users.html

This is an "internal" doc -- not an external link.

Note that they also have a "Team" link which lists all active 
Committers and Contributors.


And also a "Projects using" link which lists a bunch of projects that 
include the technology.


I haven't specifically found anything that lists the equivalent of 
"service providers" but still maintain that having this is critical 
for an organization considering adopting OFBiz for a bet-your-business 
software solution.


Carousel: all good points being raised -- showing key benefits and 
client usage would be a nice upgrade.



On 2/20/2014 5:41 AM, Jacques Le Roux wrote:

Inline...

Le 20/02/2014 10:20, Jacopo Cappellato a écrit :
I guess that you could create a patch with the proposed changes and 
then create a Jira ticket, then start a voting thread in the dev list.


If there are changes in wiki, maybe better to simply discuss them 
here (or in a Jira indeed to keep things focused) about changes to do 
and get a consensus on what to do and not. Then any wiki contributor 
could do it...




Before we go into it, I anticipate here some conditions that I think 
are important:
* I would like to review examples from other ASF projects doing the 
same; in this thread it was mentioned that several other projects 
are doing the same; I don't have time to research but if a volunteer 
could provide a list of projects and URLs of such documents I would 
be happy to review them
* remove from the documents any links to external sites that are not 
strictly following the ASF trademark guidelines; this includes all 
the sites containing the OFBiz name in the domain (e.g. ofbiz.info)


I totally second this!

* the link from the OFBiz website should have enough information to 
clearly show that the referenced documents are not under the control 
of the PMC, but instead they are "open" documents at the disposal of 
the public


I think it's enough to put the disclaimer in the concerned pages


* the same disclaimer is added at the top of each page
* the documents open in a different tab (i.e. they use the "target" 
attribute)
* they are not added to the top navigation bar; my preference would 
be to add them to the body of the index page, in this paragraph:


"For answers to your questions you might find the following 
documents useful:

• Documentation
• Documentation - Project Overview
• Documentation - Getting Started"


I believe we could add 2 links in the Resources & Tools section (or 
create a new section?) in the main page as long as there are 
disclaimers in the concerned pages. The goal is to make these links 
obvious to users




* we define clear rules on the format and content of these pages: 
define the column and content that each field can contain, the order 
of the entries, define if there are minimal requirements for 
publishing a company/site, define the amount of text each field can 
have, where external links can be defined


+1

Jacques



Jacopo

On Feb 19, 2014, at 11:32 PM, Nick Rosser  wrote:

With Hans joining the "yes" vote can we go ahead and action the 
originally proposed change?


Nick

On 2/19/2014 6:08 AM, Jacques Le Roux wrote:
BTW, last thought on this about external sites monitored for 
violation: should we not rather remove than monitor them? Then it 
would not penalize other sites...


This done we could block the page for users who would like to 
exceed their rights to edit (though I have still to understand how 
that works, see for instance Pierre's request about Roadmap page 
access)


Jacques

Le 19/02/2014 11:26, Jacques Le Roux a écrit :

Le 19/02/2014 07:38, Jacopo Cappellato a écrit :
On Feb 18, 2014, at 11:42 PM, Jacques Le Roux 
 wrote:



Please could you point the issues you see there?
The information published in the OFBiz website is official and 
must be endorsed and approved by the OFBiz PMC before its 
publication.
The information in the Wiki is not; specifically, we do not have 
clear rules that govern the "users" and "providers" list: I can 
add/move my company to the top, someone could decide that only 
companies with committers can appear there (I see now that there 
are several companies in the page that mention the term 
"contributors" even if this is not a role assigned by the OFBiz 
PMC), I see links to external sites that the ASF is monitoring 
for violations to the ASF and OFBiz trademarks, in general I see 
pages that are a mess and clearly they can't be

Re: OFBiz.org site: easier navigation to Service Providers and End Users

2014-02-20 Thread Nick Rosser

I didn't do an exhaustive search but the Active-MQ project has a link to 
"users":


   http://activemq.apache.org/users.html

This is an "internal" doc -- not an external link.

Note that they also have a "Team" link which lists all active Committers 
and Contributors.


And also a "Projects using" link which lists a bunch of projects that 
include the technology.


I haven't specifically found anything that lists the equivalent of 
"service providers" but still maintain that having this is critical for 
an organization considering adopting OFBiz for a bet-your-business 
software solution.


Carousel: all good points being raised -- showing key benefits and 
client usage would be a nice upgrade.



On 2/20/2014 5:41 AM, Jacques Le Roux wrote:

Inline...

Le 20/02/2014 10:20, Jacopo Cappellato a écrit :
I guess that you could create a patch with the proposed changes and 
then create a Jira ticket, then start a voting thread in the dev list.


If there are changes in wiki, maybe better to simply discuss them here 
(or in a Jira indeed to keep things focused) about changes to do and 
get a consensus on what to do and not. Then any wiki contributor could 
do it...




Before we go into it, I anticipate here some conditions that I think 
are important:
* I would like to review examples from other ASF projects doing the 
same; in this thread it was mentioned that several other projects are 
doing the same; I don't have time to research but if a volunteer 
could provide a list of projects and URLs of such documents I would 
be happy to review them
* remove from the documents any links to external sites that are not 
strictly following the ASF trademark guidelines; this includes all 
the sites containing the OFBiz name in the domain (e.g. ofbiz.info)


I totally second this!

* the link from the OFBiz website should have enough information to 
clearly show that the referenced documents are not under the control 
of the PMC, but instead they are "open" documents at the disposal of 
the public


I think it's enough to put the disclaimer in the concerned pages


* the same disclaimer is added at the top of each page
* the documents open in a different tab (i.e. they use the "target" 
attribute)
* they are not added to the top navigation bar; my preference would 
be to add them to the body of the index page, in this paragraph:


"For answers to your questions you might find the following documents 
useful:

• Documentation
• Documentation - Project Overview
• Documentation - Getting Started"


I believe we could add 2 links in the Resources & Tools section (or 
create a new section?) in the main page as long as there are 
disclaimers in the concerned pages. The goal is to make these links 
obvious to users




* we define clear rules on the format and content of these pages: 
define the column and content that each field can contain, the order 
of the entries, define if there are minimal requirements for 
publishing a company/site, define the amount of text each field can 
have, where external links can be defined


+1

Jacques



Jacopo

On Feb 19, 2014, at 11:32 PM, Nick Rosser  wrote:

With Hans joining the "yes" vote can we go ahead and action the 
originally proposed change?


Nick

On 2/19/2014 6:08 AM, Jacques Le Roux wrote:
BTW, last thought on this about external sites monitored for 
violation: should we not rather remove than monitor them? Then it 
would not penalize other sites...


This done we could block the page for users who would like to 
exceed their rights to edit (though I have still to understand how 
that works, see for instance Pierre's request about Roadmap page 
access)


Jacques

Le 19/02/2014 11:26, Jacques Le Roux a écrit :

Le 19/02/2014 07:38, Jacopo Cappellato a écrit :
On Feb 18, 2014, at 11:42 PM, Jacques Le Roux 
 wrote:



Please could you point the issues you see there?
The information published in the OFBiz website is official and 
must be endorsed and approved by the OFBiz PMC before its 
publication.
The information in the Wiki is not; specifically, we do not have 
clear rules that govern the "users" and "providers" list: I can 
add/move my company to the top, someone could decide that only 
companies with committers can appear there (I see now that there 
are several companies in the page that mention the term 
"contributors" even if this is not a role assigned by the OFBiz 
PMC), I see links to external sites that the ASF is monitoring 
for violations to the ASF and OFBiz trademarks, in general I see 
pages that are a mess and clearly they can't be officially 
endorsed by the project.
Having links to external sites monitored for violations by the ASF 
is clearly an issue which prevents to endorse these pages and link 
them from the main site.


Some time ago, I added a note on top of the 
https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OFBIZ/Apache+OFBiz+Service+Providers 
page

Re: OFBiz.org site: easier navigation to Service Providers and End Users


I like Jacopo's answer!

Jacques

Le 19/02/2014 23:32, Nick Rosser a écrit :
With Hans joining the "yes" vote can we go ahead and action the 
originally proposed change?


Nick

On 2/19/2014 6:08 AM, Jacques Le Roux wrote:
BTW, last thought on this about external sites monitored for 
violation: should we not rather remove than monitor them? Then it 
would not penalize other sites...


This done we could block the page for users who would like to exceed 
their rights to edit (though I have still to understand how that 
works, see for instance Pierre's request about Roadmap page access)


Jacques

Le 19/02/2014 11:26, Jacques Le Roux a écrit :

Le 19/02/2014 07:38, Jacopo Cappellato a écrit :
On Feb 18, 2014, at 11:42 PM, Jacques Le Roux 
 wrote:



Please could you point the issues you see there?
The information published in the OFBiz website is official and must 
be endorsed and approved by the OFBiz PMC before its publication.
The information in the Wiki is not; specifically, we do not have 
clear rules that govern the "users" and "providers" list: I can 
add/move my company to the top, someone could decide that only 
companies with committers can appear there (I see now that there 
are several companies in the page that mention the term 
"contributors" even if this is not a role assigned by the OFBiz 
PMC), I see links to external sites that the ASF is monitoring for 
violations to the ASF and OFBiz trademarks, in general I see pages 
that are a mess and clearly they can't be officially endorsed by 
the project.


Having links to external sites monitored for violations by the ASF 
is clearly an issue which prevents to endorse these pages and link 
them from the main site.


Some time ago, I added a note on top of the 
https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OFBIZ/Apache+OFBiz+Service+Providers 
page
>


Actually, though I wrote "We (OFBiz committers)" it was my own 
decision to monitor and keep this page as clean as possible. 
Contributor is indeed not an official role. It was added by someone 
and I decided to keep the idea. Because it allows to separate 
contributors from committers in this column.

Maybe the title of the column is not clear?
Or maybe, as it was before, we should keep only PMC members (IIRW, 
Adrian also added the PMC member role in this list and I followed) 
and committers in this list?
I thought about adding a new column for contributors, but decided 
it  was a bit too much, this could be done also, for the sake of 
separating concerns.


Jacques

I believe we should trust the community and if there are issues on 
these pages we should fix those issues, this is our duty.
It is good to allocate some space to the community to freely 
publish this kind of information, but this doesn't mean that the 
PMC has to endorse them or fix them.


Jacopo

Re: OFBiz.org site: easier navigation to Service Providers and End Users

Inline
Le 20/02/2014 11:14, Paul Piper a écrit :

Perhaps in order to add my own 2 cents to this debate:

The way I see it, OFbiz is need for the carousel images, although they
should be updated. Rereading the content, i noticed that the information do
not really stand for much, and though they are eye-pleasing I highly doubt
that they are being read. What we would need is a set of actual messages we
want to stand for. Topics could be:

1. Open Source - Strong Community
2. Full Business Solution
3. Flexible ERP Framework
4. Feature-Rich eCommerce used by many

The images and messages should add to that. Currently, there is only
eCommerce stores represented, though by the above topics only 1 of them
should even feature stores (or brand-logos to give more the feel of the 250+
implementation we currently got). The others should rather feature a source
code sample (open-source), versatile business applications and how easily
one can connect OFBiz with other systems.

This sounds like a start for a brainstorming about what should be in
this carousel...

Jacques

-
As far as the contributors debate is concerned: I must say that I have a
growing disdain of the current use of the phrases "Commiters" "Contributors"
and "PMC Member". Especially in the world of Apache, I am used to having a
flexible leadership and group-effort. Over the years, I have learned,
however that the OFbiz community works alot different from it. I think I can
say that my team and I have added quite a bit of value to the project, by
being involved in the ml, representing OFBiz at the Apache-Con, writing
articles to magazines, contributing software code (Solr component, Seo
enhancements, CMS integration sample, Axis2 implementation etc.), though we
are stuck being in the "contributors" list. I am not down-talking the
achivements of others, but one has to admit that the use of the phrases is
rather random. Other huge contributors seem to share a similar fate.

The reason i am bringing it up here, is because the ml has the tendency to
downtalk the contributions of others, contributions that the community is in
desperate need for. Anything contributed is an investment by the individual,
no matter in which form (even discussions on the ml add to it in my
perspective) and the current selection of "rank" over actual contribution is
a state that i find deeply disturbing and worrisome.

--
View this message in context:
http://ofbiz.135035.n4.nabble.com/OFBiz-org-site-easier-navigation-to-Service-Providers-and-End-Users-tp4648057p4648413.html
Sent from the OFBiz - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

Re: OFBiz.org site: easier navigation to Service Providers and End Users

This is known for long and we (mostly I) have asked Hans to clean it 
many times
He did some for (one of?) his twitter account 
https://twitter.com/apache_ofbiz though I always wondered if this is 
really "casher", but who cares?

The same question comes for https://twitter.com/ofbiz_biz
Unfortunately, etc.

The last time I asked for I got good feedbacks for most sites, so I 
think we can come to a consensus


Jacques
PS: please don't believe that I like to pass so much time in such admin 
tasks :(



Le 20/02/2014 09:20, Pierre Smits a écrit :

Though the site of Hans Bakker may suggest that it is an official OFBiz
site, it is not.

Furthermore, it shows wrong information regarding committers in the
providers overview/map.

Regard,

Pierre Smits

*ORRTIZ.COM *
Services & Solutions for Cloud-
Based Manufacturing, Professional
Services and Retail & Trade
http://www.orrtiz.com

Re: OFBiz.org site: easier navigation to Service Providers and End Users


Inline...

Le 20/02/2014 10:20, Jacopo Cappellato a écrit :

I guess that you could create a patch with the proposed changes and then create 
a Jira ticket, then start a voting thread in the dev list.


If there are changes in wiki, maybe better to simply discuss them here 
(or in a Jira indeed to keep things focused) about changes to do and get 
a consensus on what to do and not. Then any wiki contributor could do it...




Before we go into it, I anticipate here some conditions that I think are 
important:
* I would like to review examples from other ASF projects doing the same; in 
this thread it was mentioned that several other projects are doing the same; I 
don't have time to research but if a volunteer could provide a list of projects 
and URLs of such documents I would be happy to review them
* remove from the documents any links to external sites that are not strictly 
following the ASF trademark guidelines; this includes all the sites containing 
the OFBiz name in the domain (e.g. ofbiz.info)


I totally second this!


* the link from the OFBiz website should have enough information to clearly show that the 
referenced documents are not under the control of the PMC, but instead they are 
"open" documents at the disposal of the public


I think it's enough to put the disclaimer in the concerned pages


* the same disclaimer is added at the top of each page
* the documents open in a different tab (i.e. they use the "target" attribute)
* they are not added to the top navigation bar; my preference would be to add 
them to the body of the index page, in this paragraph:

"For answers to your questions you might find the following documents useful:
• Documentation
• Documentation - Project Overview
• Documentation - Getting Started"


I believe we could add 2 links in the Resources & Tools section (or 
create a new section?) in the main page as long as there are disclaimers 
in the concerned pages. The goal is to make these links obvious to users




* we define clear rules on the format and content of these pages: define the 
column and content that each field can contain, the order of the entries, 
define if there are minimal requirements for publishing a company/site, define 
the amount of text each field can have, where external links can be defined


+1

Jacques



Jacopo

On Feb 19, 2014, at 11:32 PM, Nick Rosser  wrote:


With Hans joining the "yes" vote can we go ahead and action the originally 
proposed change?

Nick

On 2/19/2014 6:08 AM, Jacques Le Roux wrote:

BTW, last thought on this about external sites monitored for violation: should 
we not rather remove than monitor them? Then it would not penalize other 
sites...

This done we could block the page for users who would like to exceed their 
rights to edit (though I have still to understand how that works, see for 
instance Pierre's request about Roadmap page access)

Jacques

Le 19/02/2014 11:26, Jacques Le Roux a écrit :

Le 19/02/2014 07:38, Jacopo Cappellato a écrit :

On Feb 18, 2014, at 11:42 PM, Jacques Le Roux  
wrote:


Please could you point the issues you see there?

The information published in the OFBiz website is official and must be endorsed 
and approved by the OFBiz PMC before its publication.
The information in the Wiki is not; specifically, we do not have clear rules that govern the 
"users" and "providers" list: I can add/move my company to the top, someone could decide 
that only companies with committers can appear there (I see now that there are several companies in the page 
that mention the term "contributors" even if this is not a role assigned by the OFBiz PMC), I see 
links to external sites that the ASF is monitoring for violations to the ASF and OFBiz trademarks, in general 
I see pages that are a mess and clearly they can't be officially endorsed by the project.

Having links to external sites monitored for violations by the ASF is clearly 
an issue which prevents to endorse these pages and link them from the main site.

Some time ago, I added a note on top of the 
https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OFBIZ/Apache+OFBiz+Service+Providers
 page
<>

Actually, though I wrote "We (OFBiz committers)" it was my own decision to 
monitor and keep this page as clean as possible. Contributor is indeed not an official 
role. It was added by someone and I decided to keep the idea. Because it allows to 
separate contributors from committers in this column.
Maybe the title of the column is not clear?
Or maybe, as it was before, we should keep only PMC members (IIRW, Adrian also 
added the PMC member role in this list and I followed) and committers in this 
list?
I thought about adding a new column for contributors, but decided it  was a bit 
too much, this could be done also, for the sake of separating concerns.

Jacques


I believe we should trust the community and if there are issues on these pages 
we should fix those issues, this is our duty.

It is good to allocate some space to the c

Re: OFBiz.org site: easier navigation to Service Providers and End Users

2014-02-20 Thread Paul Piper

Perhaps in order to add my own 2 cents to this debate:

1. Open Source - Strong Community
2. Full Business Solution
3. Flexible ERP Framework
4. Feature-Rich eCommerce used by many

Re: OFBiz.org site: easier navigation to Service Providers and End Users

2014-02-20 Thread Jacopo Cappellato

I guess that you could create a patch with the proposed changes and then create 
a Jira ticket, then start a voting thread in the dev list.

Before we go into it, I anticipate here some conditions that I think are 
important:
* I would like to review examples from other ASF projects doing the same; in 
this thread it was mentioned that several other projects are doing the same; I 
don't have time to research but if a volunteer could provide a list of projects 
and URLs of such documents I would be happy to review them
* remove from the documents any links to external sites that are not strictly 
following the ASF trademark guidelines; this includes all the sites containing 
the OFBiz name in the domain (e.g. ofbiz.info)
* the link from the OFBiz website should have enough information to clearly 
show that the referenced documents are not under the control of the PMC, but 
instead they are "open" documents at the disposal of the public
* the same disclaimer is added at the top of each page
* the documents open in a different tab (i.e. they use the "target" attribute)
* they are not added to the top navigation bar; my preference would be to add 
them to the body of the index page, in this paragraph:

"For answers to your questions you might find the following documents useful:
• Documentation
• Documentation - Project Overview
• Documentation - Getting Started"

* we define clear rules on the format and content of these pages: define the 
column and content that each field can contain, the order of the entries, 
define if there are minimal requirements for publishing a company/site, define 
the amount of text each field can have, where external links can be defined

Jacopo

On Feb 19, 2014, at 11:32 PM, Nick Rosser  wrote:

> With Hans joining the "yes" vote can we go ahead and action the originally 
> proposed change?
> 
> Nick
> 
> On 2/19/2014 6:08 AM, Jacques Le Roux wrote:
>> BTW, last thought on this about external sites monitored for violation: 
>> should we not rather remove than monitor them? Then it would not penalize 
>> other sites...
>> 
>> This done we could block the page for users who would like to exceed their 
>> rights to edit (though I have still to understand how that works, see for 
>> instance Pierre's request about Roadmap page access)
>> 
>> Jacques
>> 
>> Le 19/02/2014 11:26, Jacques Le Roux a écrit :
>>> Le 19/02/2014 07:38, Jacopo Cappellato a écrit :
 On Feb 18, 2014, at 11:42 PM, Jacques Le Roux 
  wrote:
 
> Please could you point the issues you see there?
 The information published in the OFBiz website is official and must be 
 endorsed and approved by the OFBiz PMC before its publication.
 The information in the Wiki is not; specifically, we do not have clear 
 rules that govern the "users" and "providers" list: I can add/move my 
 company to the top, someone could decide that only companies with 
 committers can appear there (I see now that there are several companies in 
 the page that mention the term "contributors" even if this is not a role 
 assigned by the OFBiz PMC), I see links to external sites that the ASF is 
 monitoring for violations to the ASF and OFBiz trademarks, in general I 
 see pages that are a mess and clearly they can't be officially endorsed by 
 the project.
>>> 
>>> Having links to external sites monitored for violations by the ASF is 
>>> clearly an issue which prevents to endorse these pages and link them from 
>>> the main site.
>>> 
>>> Some time ago, I added a note on top of the 
>>> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OFBIZ/Apache+OFBiz+Service+Providers
>>>  page
>>> <>> independent committers and companies with committer(s) at the top of the 
>>> list. Else no order is specifically required so far (we will certainly 
>>> alphabetically order the lists later), thank you>>
>>> 
>>> Actually, though I wrote "We (OFBiz committers)" it was my own decision to 
>>> monitor and keep this page as clean as possible. Contributor is indeed not 
>>> an official role. It was added by someone and I decided to keep the idea. 
>>> Because it allows to separate contributors from committers in this column.
>>> Maybe the title of the column is not clear?
>>> Or maybe, as it was before, we should keep only PMC members (IIRW, Adrian 
>>> also added the PMC member role in this list and I followed) and committers 
>>> in this list?
>>> I thought about adding a new column for contributors, but decided it  was a 
>>> bit too much, this could be done also, for the sake of separating concerns.
>>> 
>>> Jacques
>>> 
> I believe we should trust the community and if there are issues on these 
> pages we should fix those issues, this is our duty.
 It is good to allocate some space to the community to freely publish this 
 kind of information, but this doesn't mean that the PMC has to endorse 
 them or fix them.
 
 Jacopo
 
 
 
 
 
>>>

Re: OFBiz.org site: easier navigation to Service Providers and End Users

2014-02-20 Thread Pierre Smits

Though the site of Hans Bakker may suggest that it is an official OFBiz
site, it is not.

Furthermore, it shows wrong information regarding committers in the
providers overview/map.

Regard,

Pierre Smits

*ORRTIZ.COM *
Services & Solutions for Cloud-
Based Manufacturing, Professional
Services and Retail & Trade
http://www.orrtiz.com

Re: OFBiz.org site: easier navigation to Service Providers and End Users

2014-02-19 Thread Pierre Smits

Jacques is correct when saying 'it's a kind of marketing of OFBiz' when he
talks about the images at the top of the home page of the OFBiz site. This
holds equally true for referring to users and OFBiz integrators on the
homepage. In stead of burying links to sites of users (let's face it: these
are businesses) and system integrators/implementers deep in some wiki page,
the higher these are ranked in the site (closer to the home page) the
better it is for the site.

Several subject matter sites regarding the topic of outbound linking state
that outbound linking has a positive effect for the site that provides the
links. And in this case of the OFBiz project it will lead to higher ranking
when persons search for any of the keywords in the homepage. Thus leading
to more traffic to the site, and hopefully a bigger community.

Regards,


Pierre Smits

*ORRTIZ.COM *
Services & Solutions for Cloud-
Based Manufacturing, Professional
Services and Retail & Trade
http://www.orrtiz.com

Re: OFBiz.org site: easier navigation to Service Providers and End Users

2014-02-19 Thread Pierre Smits

First of all, everything published on a publication means of the Foundation
(regardless whether this is an 'official' site, a wiki or a mailing list)
is in line with the principles of the ASF. If not, actions will be
undertaken. By the ASF.
Nowhere in the documents of the ASF it is stated that when a site is in a
bad state (a mess as it has been called) it may not be linked.

As for contributing and calling yourself a contributor, the term
contributor is official in the ASF documents and when persons provide
comments, document enhancements or even participate in discussions they are
contributing to the project. Again without any remark about the quality of
the contribution, only that the contributions are improvements.

What I read in the lines of Jacopo is veto. What I don't read is: 'I have
my opinion about how it should be, but I am for finding a consensus to get
this issue resolved'. And that is a pity. Because no matter what a project
has as output or where its community wants it to go, according to the ASF
it should always be 'Community over Code'. And so should this project be.

Regards.

Pierre Smits

*ORRTIZ.COM *
Services & Solutions for Cloud-
Based Manufacturing, Professional
Services and Retail & Trade
http://www.orrtiz.com

Re: OFBiz.org site: easier navigation to Service Providers and End Users

2014-02-19 Thread Nick Rosser

With Hans joining the "yes" vote can we go ahead and action the 
originally proposed change?


Nick

On 2/19/2014 6:08 AM, Jacques Le Roux wrote:
BTW, last thought on this about external sites monitored for 
violation: should we not rather remove than monitor them? Then it 
would not penalize other sites...


This done we could block the page for users who would like to exceed 
their rights to edit (though I have still to understand how that 
works, see for instance Pierre's request about Roadmap page access)


Jacques

Le 19/02/2014 11:26, Jacques Le Roux a écrit :

Le 19/02/2014 07:38, Jacopo Cappellato a écrit :
On Feb 18, 2014, at 11:42 PM, Jacques Le Roux 
 wrote:



Please could you point the issues you see there?
The information published in the OFBiz website is official and must 
be endorsed and approved by the OFBiz PMC before its publication.
The information in the Wiki is not; specifically, we do not have 
clear rules that govern the "users" and "providers" list: I can 
add/move my company to the top, someone could decide that only 
companies with committers can appear there (I see now that there are 
several companies in the page that mention the term "contributors" 
even if this is not a role assigned by the OFBiz PMC), I see links 
to external sites that the ASF is monitoring for violations to the 
ASF and OFBiz trademarks, in general I see pages that are a mess and 
clearly they can't be officially endorsed by the project.


Having links to external sites monitored for violations by the ASF is 
clearly an issue which prevents to endorse these pages and link them 
from the main site.


Some time ago, I added a note on top of the 
https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OFBIZ/Apache+OFBiz+Service+Providers 
page
>


Actually, though I wrote "We (OFBiz committers)" it was my own 
decision to monitor and keep this page as clean as possible. 
Contributor is indeed not an official role. It was added by someone 
and I decided to keep the idea. Because it allows to separate 
contributors from committers in this column.

Maybe the title of the column is not clear?
Or maybe, as it was before, we should keep only PMC members (IIRW, 
Adrian also added the PMC member role in this list and I followed) 
and committers in this list?
I thought about adding a new column for contributors, but decided it  
was a bit too much, this could be done also, for the sake of 
separating concerns.


Jacques

I believe we should trust the community and if there are issues on 
these pages we should fix those issues, this is our duty.
It is good to allocate some space to the community to freely publish 
this kind of information, but this doesn't mean that the PMC has to 
endorse them or fix them.


Jacopo

Re: OFBiz.org site: easier navigation to Service Providers and End Users

Those were provided by HWM (Hotwax Media) when they overhauled the look 
of the site with Brainfood.
I personally see no issues there because even if you can barely read the 
site names, there are no links and the images were only provided as 
examples. They could be replaced but sincerely it's a moot point. If you 
are not aware of the history you hardly can know who build these sites 
and you can't directly link to them.


To me it's kind of marketing for OFBiz, not for sites builders. We could 
put more images (form other sites builders) or update/replace currents 
ones, size: 513x202 32 bits/pixel


Jacques

Le 19/02/2014 11:54, Pierre Smits a écrit :

If you are referring to the images that change at the top of the home page,
then the answer is yes.

Pierre Smits

*ORRTIZ.COM *
Services & Solutions for Cloud-
Based Manufacturing, Professional
Services and Retail & Trade
http://www.orrtiz.com

Re: OFBiz.org site: easier navigation to Service Providers and End Users

BTW, last thought on this about external sites monitored for violation: 
should we not rather remove than monitor them? Then it would not 
penalize other sites...


This done we could block the page for users who would like to exceed 
their rights to edit (though I have still to understand how that works, 
see for instance Pierre's request about Roadmap page access)


Jacques

Le 19/02/2014 11:26, Jacques Le Roux a écrit :

Le 19/02/2014 07:38, Jacopo Cappellato a écrit :
On Feb 18, 2014, at 11:42 PM, Jacques Le Roux 
 wrote:



Please could you point the issues you see there?
The information published in the OFBiz website is official and must 
be endorsed and approved by the OFBiz PMC before its publication.
The information in the Wiki is not; specifically, we do not have 
clear rules that govern the "users" and "providers" list: I can 
add/move my company to the top, someone could decide that only 
companies with committers can appear there (I see now that there are 
several companies in the page that mention the term "contributors" 
even if this is not a role assigned by the OFBiz PMC), I see links to 
external sites that the ASF is monitoring for violations to the ASF 
and OFBiz trademarks, in general I see pages that are a mess and 
clearly they can't be officially endorsed by the project.


Having links to external sites monitored for violations by the ASF is 
clearly an issue which prevents to endorse these pages and link them 
from the main site.


Some time ago, I added a note on top of the 
https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OFBIZ/Apache+OFBiz+Service+Providers 
page
>


Actually, though I wrote "We (OFBiz committers)" it was my own 
decision to monitor and keep this page as clean as possible. 
Contributor is indeed not an official role. It was added by someone 
and I decided to keep the idea. Because it allows to separate 
contributors from committers in this column.

Maybe the title of the column is not clear?
Or maybe, as it was before, we should keep only PMC members (IIRW, 
Adrian also added the PMC member role in this list and I followed) and 
committers in this list?
I thought about adding a new column for contributors, but decided it  
was a bit too much, this could be done also, for the sake of 
separating concerns.


Jacques

I believe we should trust the community and if there are issues on 
these pages we should fix those issues, this is our duty.
It is good to allocate some space to the community to freely publish 
this kind of information, but this doesn't mean that the PMC has to 
endorse them or fix them.


Jacopo

Re: OFBiz.org site: easier navigation to Service Providers and End Users

2014-02-19 Thread Pierre Smits

If you are referring to the images that change at the top of the home page,
then the answer is yes.

Pierre Smits

*ORRTIZ.COM *
Services & Solutions for Cloud-
Based Manufacturing, Professional
Services and Retail & Trade
http://www.orrtiz.com

Re: OFBiz.org site: easier navigation to Service Providers and End Users


Le 19/02/2014 07:38, Jacopo Cappellato a écrit :

On Feb 18, 2014, at 11:42 PM, Jacques Le Roux  
wrote:


Please could you point the issues you see there?

The information published in the OFBiz website is official and must be endorsed 
and approved by the OFBiz PMC before its publication.
The information in the Wiki is not; specifically, we do not have clear rules that govern the 
"users" and "providers" list: I can add/move my company to the top, someone could decide 
that only companies with committers can appear there (I see now that there are several companies in the page 
that mention the term "contributors" even if this is not a role assigned by the OFBiz PMC), I see 
links to external sites that the ASF is monitoring for violations to the ASF and OFBiz trademarks, in general 
I see pages that are a mess and clearly they can't be officially endorsed by the project.


Having links to external sites monitored for violations by the ASF is 
clearly an issue which prevents to endorse these pages and link them 
from the main site.


Some time ago, I added a note on top of the 
https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OFBIZ/Apache+OFBiz+Service+Providers 
page
>


Actually, though I wrote "We (OFBiz committers)" it was my own decision 
to monitor and keep this page as clean as possible. Contributor is 
indeed not an official role. It was added by someone and I decided to 
keep the idea. Because it allows to separate contributors from 
committers in this column.

Maybe the title of the column is not clear?
Or maybe, as it was before, we should keep only PMC members (IIRW, 
Adrian also added the PMC member role in this list and I followed) and 
committers in this list?
I thought about adding a new column for contributors, but decided it  
was a bit too much, this could be done also, for the sake of separating 
concerns.


Jacques


I believe we should trust the community and if there are issues on these pages 
we should fix those issues, this is our duty.

It is good to allocate some space to the community to freely publish this kind 
of information, but this doesn't mean that the PMC has to endorse them or fix 
them.

Jacopo

Re: OFBiz.org site: easier navigation to Service Providers and End Users