Most stable OS

[David Robinson]

Hey speaking of the most stable OS around, I have a PM 8500 with a XLR
G3 Upgrade running at 333 mhz and 240 mgs of RAM. I have lots of FINDER
crashes with System 9.1. Anybody know what to do about this stupid
problem. I have already tried that "trashing the finder bit" and
installing a new one. It' don't work!

David Robinson


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Most Stable OS

[David Robinson]

Wait a minute It just happened again. This time I was working in
Photoshop 5.5 with Pagemaker 6.5 open and Netscape open, working a photo
from an internet download into Photoshop. (Î was editing the photo at
the time of the crash.) This is when most of my crashes occur.
David


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Re: Most stable OS

[Christopher Iwane]

FWIW, the only OS that has given me any trouble is 7.5.3.

And here's a refresher:
>Vintage Macs is a forum for users of 68020 and 68030-based Macintosh 
>computers. This includes some compact Macs,* the Mac II series, and 
>LCs.
>
>Using our "once removed" rule, discussion of 68000- and 68040-based 
>Macs is acceptable. Power Macs should be discussed on other lists.

-- 
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User Services
Bryn Mawr College Computing Services

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Re: Most stable OS

[Michael J. Flaherty]

> I have lots of FINDER crashes

Try allocating more RAM to the finder, an operation that requires the
FinderFixer control panel or something similar.  Download it here.



MJF


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Re: Most stable OS

[Steve Moody]

At 8:26 AM -0500 7/24/2001, David Robinson wrote:
>Hey speaking of the most stable OS around, I have a PM 8500 with a XLR
>G3 Upgrade running at 333 mhz and 240 mgs of RAM. I have lots of FINDER
>crashes with System 9.1. Anybody know what to do about this stupid
>problem. I have already tried that "trashing the finder bit" and
>installing a new one. It' don't work!

   It may not be the Finder that is causing the crash.  The real 
problem might be causing the Finder to crash.  Disable all the non-OS 
extensions/Control Panels.  Then, see if it crashes.
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Re: Most stable OS

[David Robinson]

The problem with that is that my crashes usually occur only when working. For
example, I may be using Pagemaker 6.5, and/or Photoshop 5.5, with Netscape at
the same time and she'll crash. Not all the time, just some times.

Most recently, (on at least three occasions) the computer wouldn't start all
the way up. Just to the desktop and it locks up. Then of course, you have to
do a forced restart.

Then, sometimes, it crashes with just one application running. It's really
screwy.

However, since all of you have been so kind with your input, and after trying
the Finder fixer, and increasing the memory dramatically, things seem better.
And trashing the Apple Menu Options, Control Strip, and Finder Prefs may have
been beneficial too.
Thanks, All input is welcomed.
David

Steve Moody wrote:

> At 8:26 AM -0500 7/24/2001, David Robinson wrote:
> >Hey speaking of the most stable OS around, I have a PM 8500 with a XLR
> >G3 Upgrade running at 333 mhz and 240 mgs of RAM. I have lots of FINDER
> >crashes with System 9.1. Anybody know what to do about this stupid
> >problem. I have already tried that "trashing the finder bit" and
> >installing a new one. It' don't work!
>
>It may not be the Finder that is causing the crash.  The real
> problem might be causing the Finder to crash.  Disable all the non-OS
> extensions/Control Panels.  Then, see if it crashes.
> --
> 
> http://homepage.mac.com/stmoody/
> http://www.13idol.com/mac/macfacts.html
>Handgun crime in Britain has increased more than 40% since the
> handgun ban of 1997.
>
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Re: Most Stable OS

[Chris the Listnanny(tm)]

At 19:54 -0500 on 24/07/01, David Robinson wrote:

>Wait a minute It just happened again. This time I was working in
>Photoshop 5.5 with Pagemaker 6.5 open and Netscape open, working a photo
>from an internet download into Photoshop. (Î was editing the photo at

This is NOT a Vintage Macs topic.  Please take it to another,
more-appropriate list.

Further posts in this thread will result in the listnanny (and probably the
listmom too) getting very irritated...

cl

Chris Lawson, Low End Mac
Listnanny, Compact.Macs and Vintage.Macs
[EMAIL PROTECTED]


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Re: Most Stable OS

[Marten van de Kraats]

>Wait a minute It just happened again. This time I was working in
>Photoshop 5.5 with Pagemaker 6.5 open and Netscape open, working a photo
>from an internet download into Photoshop. (Î was editing the photo at
>the time of the crash.) This is when most of my crashes occur.
>David
>
Wait a minute indeed... Every time this subject turns up I take a
look vaguely hoping somebody has something really interesting to say
about some version of the macintosh operating system, but everytime I
read boring messages about adobe apps crashing. Tell me something
new. Adobe is pretty famous for its buggy software, and we all know
that 9.1 gives plenty of incompatibility with older software. I have
to deal with stuff like that on a daily basis at work. In my
experience you can eliminate most problems by using a very clean and
basic system. That is what I do to run eg. quark 3.31 on 9.1. I also
avoid the problem by running old apps on old macs with old systems.
Works like a charm.
BTW There is only one really stable macintosh os and that is os x,
totally off topic.
The macintosh operating systems I use are 6.08, 7.1, 7.6.1, 9.1 and
10.0.4. I hardly experience crashes with any of them because I use
software that works well with them and I keep my system folders very
clean and basic.

Marten
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Re: Most Stable OS

[David Robinson]

Very, Very sorry, tell me which list I should go to.


"Chris the Listnanny(tm)" wrote:

> At 19:54 -0500 on 24/07/01, David Robinson wrote:
>
> >Wait a minute It just happened again. This time I was working in
> >Photoshop 5.5 with Pagemaker 6.5 open and Netscape open, working a photo
> >from an internet download into Photoshop. (Î was editing the photo at
>
> This is NOT a Vintage Macs topic.  Please take it to another,
> more-appropriate list.
>
> Further posts in this thread will result in the listnanny (and probably the
> listmom too) getting very irritated...
>
> cl
> 
> Chris Lawson, Low End Mac
> Listnanny, Compact.Macs and Vintage.Macs
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 
>
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Re: Most Stable OS

[Gregg Eshelman]

--- David Robinson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Wait a minute It just happened again. This time
> I was working in
> Photoshop 5.5 with Pagemaker 6.5 open and Netscape
> open, working a photo
> from an internet download into Photoshop. (Î was
> editing the photo at
> the time of the crash.) This is when most of my
> crashes occur.
> David

Netscape has a set of bugs that it has contained
virtually unchanged since at least version 2.0.
Their programmers have shown zero interest in
fixing any of those "classic" bugs, most of which
cause it to crash and usually destabilize the OS,
Mac or Windows, doesn't matter with Netscape.
On the Mac, I actually prefer Internet Explorer.
I have to use Netscape at work because our customer
database will not work properly with IE.

=
"The earth swarms with inhabitants. Why then should nature,
which is fruitful to an excess here, be so very barren in
the rest of the planets?" Bernard de Fontenelle, 1686
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
My ICQ# 16024947

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Re: Most Stable OS

[James S Jones]

Part of the problem with Netscape 2.0 to 4.7x is that it was designed to be
internally multithreaded, using a Netscape thread manager, rather than a
system one*. The root of this came from Mac System 7 and 16-bit Windows. Those
systems didn't have thread managers. The result is a monstrously monolithic
and huge application, which uses so many resources that it can block the
system I/O queues, even on multithreaded, pre-emptive multitasking systems
like OS/2 or Win9x (although perhaps not NT). The system has to be rebooted
because you can't get back to the Finder/WorkPlace Shell/Explorer to kill it
when it hangs.

To their credit, this design provided some real benefits on a 68k Mac. I can
be downloading something while sending an email or reading a web page, etc.

*I think NS 4.x actually uses a system thread manager extension for OS 7.5.5
and earlier.

Gregg Eshelman wrote:
> 
> --- David Robinson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Wait a minute It just happened again. This time
> > I was working in
> > Photoshop 5.5 with Pagemaker 6.5 open and Netscape
> > open, working a photo
> > from an internet download into Photoshop. (Î was
> > editing the photo at
> > the time of the crash.) This is when most of my
> > crashes occur.
> > David
> 
> Netscape has a set of bugs that it has contained
> virtually unchanged since at least version 2.0.
> Their programmers have shown zero interest in
> fixing any of those "classic" bugs, most of which
> cause it to crash and usually destabilize the OS,
> Mac or Windows, doesn't matter with Netscape.
> On the Mac, I actually prefer Internet Explorer.
> I have to use Netscape at work because our customer
> database will not work properly with IE.

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Re: Most Stable OS

[Steve Conrad]

If it does I cannot find it on my machine. I looked in the Extensions
folder and under Preferences in the Netscape folders. I also looked in the
Netscape Navigator folder. This is NS 4.05 on a IIci.

>*I think NS 4.x actually uses a system thread manager extension for OS 7.5.5
>and earlier.
>

Steve Conrad
1818 Franklin
Lexington, MO 64067
660-259-7176 http://sasha91.0pi.com


   It is no secret (nor should it come as any surprise) that humankind's
most noble impulses often surface during the most trying of times, that
human spirit rises to the challenge when faced with adversity, that human
strength is born from human failings...Is it any wonder, then, that the
SDF-1 crew became a tighter family after the fortress had been exiled than
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Re: Most Stable OS

[Steve Moody]

At 8:57 PM -0500 7/24/2001, David Robinson wrote:
>Very, Very sorry, tell me which list I should go to.

   Subscribe here:

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Re: Most stable OS

[Darren]

Very off topic, please excuse me. Maybe this tread will help some body.
I hope. Not my words but those that may come

David Robinson wrote:

> The problem with that is that my crashes usually occur only when working. For
> example, I may be using Pagemaker 6.5, and/or Photoshop 5.5, with Netscape at
> the same time and she'll crash. Not all the time, just some times.

FWIW we have found netscape doesn't play well with other apps. Would like
to recommend IE5 but that will crash itself on a bad day, good browser thou.
Appleworks runs hot and cold but the new update goes along way to
fix that finally. I'd be interested to know how often Pagemaker or PS5.5 crashes
by
themselves. We have trouble browsing with these open sometimes.
Quark4+ and appleshareIP (6.+) dont get along at all. The new quark might fix
that?
MYOB doesn't like netscape much.

The firewire 450 imac insists on trying to connect a invisible server every now
and then,
locking up up the startup until the servers folder is removed from the system
folder. 9.0.4 bug
fixed in 9.1 I think, like the one that records all your cd burning history and
memory leaks.

Our 7300/g3/400 has some trouble finding DHCP on a cold boot and will, at times,
pause for 30 seconds (seconds in the bar clock stop, mouse free) about every 5
minutes
for that reason I think, sometimes this 2 or 3 hours into work.

> Most recently, (on at least three occasions) the computer wouldn't start all
> the way up. Just to the desktop and it locks up. Then of course, you have to
> do a forced restart.
>
> Then, sometimes, it crashes with just one application running. It's really
> screwy.

We found 8.6 very stable with 128 ram, not good with 64 thou, go back to 8.1
I'm looking for another 128 before trying OS9.1 on the 7300. every bit helps. :)
especially with a "older mac".

A zip drive formatted on 9.0.4 and the drive itself plug into the 7300 running
8.1
will work fine but the data transferred from the 8.1 onto the disk comes up
invalid when read under 9.0.4. Would this be a HFS, HFS extended problem?

There is a great depth of knowledge of all sorts on this list.
I humbly thank all new and old members for the topics shared.


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Re: Most stable OS

[David Robinson]

Regarding Pagmaker 6.5, it crasher quite frequently on it's on. I beginning
to wonder if I should have stayed with my old friend Pagemaker 6.0. PM 6.5
crashed this morning as I was attempting to run Outlook Express.
David

--
>From: Darren <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> (Vintage Macs)
>Subject: Re: Most stable OS
>Date: Wed, Jul 25, 2001, 5:40 AM
>

> Very off topic, please excuse me. Maybe this tread will help some body.
> I hope. Not my words but those that may come
>
> David Robinson wrote:
>
>> The problem with that is that my crashes usually occur only when working. For
>> example, I may be using Pagemaker 6.5, and/or Photoshop 5.5, with Netscape at
>> the same time and she'll crash. Not all the time, just some times.
>
> FWIW we have found netscape doesn't play well with other apps. Would like
> to recommend IE5 but that will crash itself on a bad day, good browser thou.
> Appleworks runs hot and cold but the new update goes along way to
> fix that finally. I'd be interested to know how often Pagemaker or PS5.5
crashes
> by
> themselves. We have trouble browsing with these open sometimes.
> Quark4+ and appleshareIP (6.+) dont get along at all. The new quark might fix
> that?
> MYOB doesn't like netscape much.
>
> The firewire 450 imac insists on trying to connect a invisible server every
now
> and then,
> locking up up the startup until the servers folder is removed from the system
> folder. 9.0.4 bug
> fixed in 9.1 I think, like the one that records all your cd burning history
and
> memory leaks.
>
> Our 7300/g3/400 has some trouble finding DHCP on a cold boot and will, at
times,
> pause for 30 seconds (seconds in the bar clock stop, mouse free) about every 5
> minutes
> for that reason I think, sometimes this 2 or 3 hours into work.
>
>> Most recently, (on at least three occasions) the computer wouldn't start all
>> the way up. Just to the desktop and it locks up. Then of course, you have to
>> do a forced restart.
>>
>> Then, sometimes, it crashes with just one application running. It's really
>> screwy.
>
> We found 8.6 very stable with 128 ram, not good with 64 thou, go back to 8.1
> I'm looking for another 128 before trying OS9.1 on the 7300. every bit helps.
:)
> especially with a "older mac".
>
> A zip drive formatted on 9.0.4 and the drive itself plug into the 7300 running
> 8.1
> will work fine but the data transferred from the 8.1 onto the disk comes up
> invalid when read under 9.0.4. Would this be a HFS, HFS extended problem?
>
> There is a great depth of knowledge of all sorts on this list.
> I humbly thank all new and old members for the topics shared.
>
>
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Re: Most stable OS

[Marten van de Kraats]

>Regarding Pagmaker 6.5, it crasher quite frequently on it's on. I beginning
>to wonder if I should have stayed with my old friend Pagemaker 6.0. PM 6.5
>crashed this morning as I was attempting to run Outlook Express.
>David
>
How very interesting. Nice of you to share this with us.
Personally, I find outlook express a real pain in the ass running on a
68030 mac. I'm pretty amazed you use it at all (especially considering all
those virus problems, and the fact that it is a M$ product).

Marten


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Re: Most stable OS

[David Robinson]

I really don't use it very much. Acutally, I hate it. But with all this 
nasty comment about Netscape I thought I'd try it for a while and see if IE
& Express worked better (fewer crashes while working in apps) than Netscape.
Frankly, I prefer Netscape. But if it's as buggy as everyone seems to think
then I need to try an alternative.
David

--
>From: Marten van de Kraats <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> (Vintage Macs)
>Subject: Re: Most stable OS
>Date: Wed, Jul 25, 2001, 8:55 AM
>

>>Regarding Pagmaker 6.5, it crasher quite frequently on it's on. I beginning
>>to wonder if I should have stayed with my old friend Pagemaker 6.0. PM 6.5
>>crashed this morning as I was attempting to run Outlook Express.
>>David
>>
> How very interesting. Nice of you to share this with us.
> Personally, I find outlook express a real pain in the ass running on a
> 68030 mac. I'm pretty amazed you use it at all (especially considering all
> those virus problems, and the fact that it is a M$ product).
>
> Marten
>
> 
> Check out the System 6 Heaven:
> http://www.euronet.nl/users/mvdk/system_6_heaven.html
> 
>
>
>
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Re: Most stable OS

[Cameron Kaiser]

> I really don't use it very much. Acutally, I hate it. But with all this 
> nasty comment about Netscape I thought I'd try it for a while and see if IE
> & Express worked better (fewer crashes while working in apps) than Netscape.
> Frankly, I prefer Netscape. But if it's as buggy as everyone seems to think
> then I need to try an alternative.

Odd. Never had any trouble with 2.02 on my workstation IIci (IIci, 24MB RAM,
8*24*GC, cache card, Farallon EtherWave NuBus, 7.1 + Thread Manager).

-- 
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 Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: Most stable OS

[Marten van de Kraats]

You might consider using Eudora, by far the best e-mail app, that I know
of, and there are nice 68k versions available. In my experience Netscape
runs much nicer on 68030 macs than IE. Netscape 2.02 is the  fastest, but
on a IIfx Netscape 3 and 4 work pretty well. IE is dog slow. You might
consider iCab too, though it is not as fast as netscape 2.02.
Netscape becoming buggy starts with version 6, a ppc only product and
therefore totally off topic for this list. Godzilla runs pretty nice btw.

>I really don't use it very much. Acutally, I hate it. But with all this
>nasty comment about Netscape I thought I'd try it for a while and see if IE
>& Express worked better (fewer crashes while working in apps) than Netscape.
>Frankly, I prefer Netscape. But if it's as buggy as everyone seems to think
>then I need to try an alternative.
>David
>


Check out the System 6 Heaven:
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Re: Most stable OS

[Gregg Eshelman]

--- David Robinson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Regarding Pagmaker 6.5, it crasher quite frequently
> on it's on. I beginning
> to wonder if I should have stayed with my old friend
> Pagemaker 6.0. PM 6.5
> crashed this morning as I was attempting to run
> Outlook Express.
> David

Its always so much fun to have your Mac say...

"Umm, this application just quit itself and I don't
know why, maybe I do but it would just confuse you
if I told you. Why don't you try running it again and
see if it does that again?
Woops! It quit itself again. Have another go-round?
Hey! Look at that, its running!"

I'm still trying to find out what a -671 error is.

=
"The earth swarms with inhabitants. Why then should nature,
which is fruitful to an excess here, be so very barren in
the rest of the planets?" Bernard de Fontenelle, 1686
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: Most stable OS

[Amber Rhea]

on 7/25/01 1:37 PM, (Vintage Macs) at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> I really don't use it very much. Acutally, I hate it. But with all this
> nasty comment about Netscape I thought I'd try it for a while and see if IE
> & Express worked better (fewer crashes while working in apps) than Netscape.
> Frankly, I prefer Netscape. But if it's as buggy as everyone seems to think
> then I need to try an alternative.
> David

I prefer IE and Outlook Express. I've had almost no problems with crashes. I
used to use Netscape for web and email but I actually had more problems with
Netscape than with M$ (sad to say).

-- 
*** Amber Rhea ***
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: Most stable OS

[Marten van de Kraats]

>
>I prefer IE and Outlook Express. I've had almost no problems with crashes. I
>used to use Netscape for web and email but I actually had more problems with
>Netscape than with M$ (sad to say).
>

And you run these programs on a 68030 mac?

Marten
-- 

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Re: Most stable OS

[Kyle Hansen]

Gregg Eshelman wrote:

> I'm still trying to find out what a -671 error is.

-671 is a "connection proccesses" error usually associated with an Open
Transport crash.

Kyle H. Hansen

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Re: Most stable OS

[Chris the Listnanny(tm)]

At 20:40 +1000 on 25/07/01, Darren wrote:

>Very off topic, please excuse me. Maybe this tread will help some body.

At least you realise it's off-topic.  Now that you realise that, how about
you take it offlist as you've (that's a collective you) been asked to do
once already?

Sorry if this sounds harsh, but I didn't think I was going to have to ask a
second time within 24 hours.  Something like a third of the messages on
this list in the past 24 hours have been in this and the handgun thread.
Drop them both.

Thanks,
cl

Chris Lawson, Low End Mac
Listnanny, Compact.Macs and Vintage.Macs
[EMAIL PROTECTED]


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Re: Most stable OS

[Steve Moody]

At 12:20 PM -0700 7/25/2001, Kyle Hansen wrote:
>  > I'm still trying to find out what a -671 error is.
>
>-671 is a "connection proccesses" error usually associated with an Open
>Transport crash.

   1) Where can I find a list of error codes and what they mean?

   2) One thing I'll never understand is why the Macintosh, with it's 
ease of use, has always had error codes that are so user unfriendly. 
Even DOS has no error message as unfriendly and Macintosh Error 
codes.  Windows 95 comes close, however.
-- 

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Re: Most stable OS

[Andrew W. Hill]

>At 12:20 PM -0700 7/25/2001, Kyle Hansen wrote:
>>   > I'm still trying to find out what a -671 error is.
>>
>>-671 is a "connection proccesses" error usually associated with an Open
>>Transport crash.
>
>1) Where can I find a list of error codes and what they mean?

Install MACSBug.  Or rather, get MacsBugApp.  You can't hurt your 
computer too bad with that.
Open it and type "Error #-671" and it'll tell ya.

>2) One thing I'll never understand is why the Macintosh, with it's
>ease of use, has always had error codes that are so user unfriendly.
>Even DOS has no error message as unfriendly and Macintosh Error
>codes.  Windows 95 comes close, however.

Most people don't care about the error codes.  The only ones that 
should ever occur would be 0 and 1... maybe 4.  The others aren't too 
common or could easily be bypassed by a programmer (noFPU for 
instance).

Aqua

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Re: Most stable OS

[Alex Allee]

on 7/25/01 5:29 PM, Steve Moody at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> 1) Where can I find a list of error codes and what they mean?

Macinstein.com has a error code search engine, you might want to check that.

> 2) One thing I'll never understand is why the Macintosh, with it's
> ease of use, has always had error codes that are so user unfriendly.
> Even DOS has no error message as unfriendly and Macintosh Error
> codes.  Windows 95 comes close, however.

That's because DOS has no error codes, it just crashed and required a
reboot. :) 

-- 
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--
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Re: Most stable OS

[Steve Moody]

At 5:21 PM -0700 7/28/2001, Alex Allee wrote:
>  > 2) One thing I'll never understand is why the Macintosh, with it's
>>  ease of use, has always had error codes that are so user unfriendly.
>>  Even DOS has no error message as unfriendly and Macintosh Error
>>  codes.  Windows 95 comes close, however.
>
>That's because DOS has no error codes, it just crashed and required a
>reboot. :)


   MS-DOS rarely crashed when I used it.  The only OS I've used that 
crashed less that MS-DOS is TRS-DOS.   TRS-DOS never crashed on me. 
But who wants to use those?
-- 

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Re: Most stable OS

[Steve Conrad]

>   MS-DOS rarely crashed when I used it.  The only OS I've used that
>crashed less that MS-DOS is TRS-DOS.   TRS-DOS never crashed on me.
>But who wants to use those?


Those folks who collect older computers want as many differing TRS models
as they can find. Trust me on this, I know folks who crow very loudly when
they get one they didn't already have.

Steve Conrad
1818 Franklin
Lexington, MO 64067
660-259-7176 http://sasha91.0pi.com


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most noble impulses often surface during the most trying of times, that
human spirit rises to the challenge when faced with adversity, that human
strength is born from human failings...Is it any wonder, then, that the
SDF-1 crew became a tighter family after the fortress had been exiled than
it had before?

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Which list? Re: Most Stable OS

[Gregg Eshelman]

--- David Robinson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Very, Very sorry, tell me which list I should go to.

One of the PowerMac lists.

=
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Self crashing apps. Re: Most Stable OS

[Gregg Eshelman]

Netscape's "favorite" tactic is scribbling over
itself in memory, at least on Windows. How do I
tell if a Mac app crash is due to the app overwriting
part of its main executable in RAM? At any rate,
especially after 20+ years, _I_ find it amazing
that programmers still haven't come up with a
99.999% perfect way of keeping applications from
doing this, no matter what OS or platform. :P

How hard can it be for the app to look around and
see that its current memory location starts at
_this_ address and ends at _that_ one, then create
a temporary file saying "Thou shall NOT write
ANYTHING upon thyself."???

I'm sick of seeing NETSCAPE.EXE caused a (pick an
error) in NETSCAPE.EXE. Bleagh. I suppose I'd
need a debugger loaded to catch Mac apps blowing
their own bits out?

All systems can do with these bad app-les is to
quarrantine them and sweep up the debris. Win NT/2K,
OSX, Linux etc can do that. Mac System/OS 9.1 and
older and WinMe/9x/3.xx can't. Its still best to
reboot after an app crashes, no telling what little
"nuggets" its left behind just waiting to cause
some normally stable app to blow up.

--- James S Jones <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Part of the problem with Netscape 2.0 to 4.7x is
> that it was designed to be
> internally multithreaded, using a Netscape thread
> manager, rather than a
> system one*. The root of this came from Mac System 7
> and 16-bit Windows. Those
> systems didn't have thread managers. The result is a
> monstrously monolithic
> and huge application, which uses so many resources
> that it can block the
> system I/O queues, even on multithreaded,
> pre-emptive multitasking systems
> like OS/2 or Win9x (although perhaps not NT). The
> system has to be rebooted
> because you can't get back to the Finder/WorkPlace
> Shell/Explorer to kill it
> when it hangs.
> 
> To their credit, this design provided some real
> benefits on a 68k Mac. I can
> be downloading something while sending an email or
> reading a web page, etc.
> 
> *I think NS 4.x actually uses a system thread
> manager extension for OS 7.5.5
> and earlier.


=
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What is the most stable OS around 8.0?

[Anand Keathley]

What? G3 stuff here;-(  Well, for what it's worth, 8.6

Anand


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Re: Self crashing apps. Re: Most Stable OS

[James S Jones]

This is one of the advantages of Netscape on the classic Mac OS. Any
application creates it's own memory partition and only the most remarkably
buggy apps will overwrite another app's partition (maybe something not "32-bit
clean"?). Netscape and some others go one step further. Once it has a
partition, it never releases it back to the system*. If you quit NS and
restart it, it will use exactly the same space it previously occupied. I
suspect that one reason NS will freeze the system if you restart it after it
crashes is that it tries to reclaim that space, but the system sees as a "new"
app trying to overwrite another's partition and it traps the protection
violation. I don't necessarily reboot immediately after all apps abend, but I
would never try to run some, like NS, without rebooting.

*So, if you've allocated 24 MB of your 128 MB to Netscape and then close it,
you will not get that memory back for other applications without rebooting.

Gregg Eshelman wrote:
> 
> All systems can do with these bad app-les is to
> quarrantine them and sweep up the debris. Win NT/2K,
> OSX, Linux etc can do that. Mac System/OS 9.1 and
> older and WinMe/9x/3.xx can't. Its still best to
> reboot after an app crashes, no telling what little
> "nuggets" its left behind just waiting to cause
> some normally stable app to blow up.

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Re: Self crashing apps. Re: Most Stable OS

[Gregg Eshelman]

--- James S Jones <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> This is one of the advantages of Netscape on the
> classic Mac OS. Any
> application creates it's own memory partition and
> only the most remarkably
> buggy apps will overwrite another app's partition
> (maybe something not "32-bit
> clean"?). Netscape and some others go one step
> further. Once it has a
> partition, it never releases it back to the system*.
> If you quit NS and
> restart it, it will use exactly the same space it
> previously occupied. I
> suspect that one reason NS will freeze the system if
> you restart it after it
> crashes is that it tries to reclaim that space, but
> the system sees as a "new"
> app trying to overwrite another's partition and it
> traps the protection
> violation. I don't necessarily reboot immediately
> after all apps abend, but I
> would never try to run some, like NS, without
> rebooting.
> 
> *So, if you've allocated 24 MB of your 128 MB to
> Netscape and then close it,
> you will not get that memory back for other
> applications without rebooting.

No wonder Jump Development said you shouldn't even
think about thinking about using RAM Charger on
Netscape. :P (Another nasty bit with Netscape is
it's not fully "Smart Scroll Aware", the "thumbs"
are fixed at the default size.) "At Netscape,
we read the programming manuals for the OS, then
do what they say NOT to do!"

=
"The earth swarms with inhabitants. Why then should nature,
which is fruitful to an excess here, be so very barren in
the rest of the planets?" Bernard de Fontenelle, 1686
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
My ICQ# 16024947

__
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Re: What is the most stable OS around 8.0?

[Darren]

Anand Keathley wrote:

> What? G3 stuff here;-(  Well, for what it's worth, 8.6
>
> Anand
>

Less than 64m ram, OS8.1


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Errors on the Mac (was Re: Most stable OS)

[the pickle]

At 20:29 -0400 on 25/07/01, Steve Moody wrote:

>At 12:20 PM -0700 7/25/2001, Kyle Hansen wrote:
>>  > I'm still trying to find out what a -671 error is.
>>
>>-671 is a "connection proccesses" error usually associated with an Open
>>Transport crash.
>
>   1) Where can I find a list of error codes and what they mean?

Try a Google search for "Apple Error Codes."

The TIL has a good bit of information too.

>   2) One thing I'll never understand is why the Macintosh, with it's
>ease of use, has always had error codes that are so user unfriendly.
>Even DOS has no error message as unfriendly and Macintosh Error

It wasn't always that way.  Mac error codes usually are lower-level things
than those problems that would generate an error in DOS/Windoze.

For example, try removing a floppy on a DOS machine and then try writing to
the A: drive.  "Error reading drive A.  Abort/Retry/Fail?"  On a Mac, you
would simply get the "Please insert the disk" message, which makes a
helluva lot more sense.

Example again: the "general protection fault" in Windoze, which is just a
blanket error that usually doesn't specify anything.  At least with an
error number you know what you might want to look for.

It's been too long since I tried to write to a locked floppy in DOS or
Windoze, so I don't remember exactly what happens, but I seem to recall
that it's not nearly as friendly as "This floppy is locked."

Most Mac error codes that actually get codes instead of explanations are
very obscure things that don't happen much.  In 13 years of using Macs,
I've never seen a -671 error.  Close to (maybe more than) 90% of what I've
seen has been Type 1, 2, 3, 10, and 119, the last of which (#119) were all
due to Stuffit Expander being poorly written and doing stupid things with
the FCB allocation table in Mac OS 8.5 and up.

I could probably come up with a lot more examples.  DOS and Windoze are
*not* user-friendly with their errors.
_
the pickle
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Re: Errors on the Mac (was Re: Most stable OS)

[Steve Moody]

At 9:25 PM -0400 7/25/2001, the pickle wrote:
>  >   2) One thing I'll never understand is why the Macintosh, with it's
>>ease of use, has always had error codes that are so user unfriendly.
>  >Even DOS has no error message as unfriendly and Macintosh Error
>

-

>I could probably come up with a lot more examples.  DOS and Windoze are
>*not* user-friendly with their errors.

   I was talking about error CODES, not error MESSAGES.  Mac error 
messages are much more user friendly than DOS error messages.  Error 
codes are a different matter.  I don't remember anything in DOS that 
is equivalent to error codes.
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Re: Errors on the Mac (was Re: Most stable OS)

[Gregg Eshelman]

I've been unlucky enough to see the work of lazy
Windows programmers with messages like
"An error has occured: Error. [OK]"
Can't remember what program that was.

I think Mac error numbers are spit out by the System
or maybe the ROM. On Windows the error messages with
the Details option that gives you more info you can't
understand are generated by the OS. The stupid
ones that just say Error or pop an "Error" box to
tell you the thing worked perfectly are the work of
programmers. At least the Windows generated error
messages usually tell you what crashed and what the
name of the file is that has a problem. Unfortunately
too often its says  which is just as
nasty as a Mac program suddenly quitting because
of an unknown error. Couldn't Apple have made it
so that if a program pukes it would say "Program
exited unexpectedly because of" followed by the
name of the Extention or Control Panel that made it
crash? 

--- Steve Moody <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> At 9:25 PM -0400 7/25/2001, the pickle wrote:
> >  >   2) One thing I'll never understand is why the
> Macintosh, with it's
> >>ease of use, has always had error codes that are
> so user unfriendly.
> >  >Even DOS has no error message as unfriendly and
> Macintosh Error
> >

> >I could probably come up with a lot more examples. 
> DOS and Windoze are
> >*not* user-friendly with their errors.
> 
>I was talking about error CODES, not error
> MESSAGES.  Mac error 
> messages are much more user friendly than DOS error
> messages.  Error 
> codes are a different matter.  I don't remember
> anything in DOS that 
> is equivalent to error codes.


=
"The earth swarms with inhabitants. Why then should nature,
which is fruitful to an excess here, be so very barren in
the rest of the planets?" Bernard de Fontenelle, 1686
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: Errors on the Mac (was Re: Most stable OS)

[Steve Moody]

At 1:44 AM -0700 7/26/2001, Gregg Eshelman wrote:
>I've been unlucky enough to see the work of lazy
>Windows programmers with messages like
>"An error has occured: Error. [OK]"
>Can't remember what program that was.

   That's nothing.  I have a jpg of an error window that CC:Mail for 
Windows 3.1 gave me one day (at work - I'm not a PC user, but I play 
one at work). "Fatal Error - No Error",  Apparently, one of the 
programs knew that it would be confusing to most Windows users if the 
program worked flawlessly.

   And to remain on topic:

   Does anyone know where I can buy some System 7.1 disks?  My 
recently aquired LCIII has it installed, but it ain't all there.
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browsers and email on vintage Macs (was Re: Most stable OS)

[Amber Rhea]

on 7/25/01 4:21 PM, (Vintage Macs) at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

>> 
>> I prefer IE and Outlook Express. I've had almost no problems with crashes. I
>> used to use Netscape for web and email but I actually had more problems with
>> Netscape than with M$ (sad to say).
>> 
> 
> And you run these programs on a 68030 mac?

Oh, heavens no! You almost gave me heart failure there. :) I should have
been more clear. People were discussing their PowerMacs, so I thought I'd
chip in; I run IE and Outlook on my G4. On my Color Classic I run Netscape 2
and use NiftyTelnet for email. On my Classic I run NCSA Mosaic 1.03, and I
have Eudora Lite 1.5.5 installed, though I rarely check email from that
machine. Netscape 2, Eudora Lite, and NiftyTelnet are all also present on
the SE/30.

-- 
Amber Rhea   [EMAIL PROTECTED]

"I spent eleven long years in a hot house zone
 I spent twentynine more trying to get home
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  - Shawn Colvin


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