date:20121121

Rossi has peers?

[Vo]:NASA: We think we found something . . .

. . . but it will be weeks before we can tell you:

http://www.npr.org/2012/11/20/165513016/big-news-from-mars-rover-scientists-mum-for-now

(I hate it when they do that!)

Re: [Vo]:Rossi Says .. (believe it or not)

2012-11-21 Thread Harry Veeder

and they are covered in barnacles
harry

On Wed, Nov 21, 2012 at 12:55 PM, Terry Blanton hohlr...@gmail.com wrote:
 Rossi has peers?

RE: [Vo]:NASA: We think we found something . . .

2012-11-21 Thread MarkI-ZeroPoint

... but it will be weeks before we can tell you

Sounds like a little bit of Rossi has rubbed off on NASA...

-Original Message-
From: Terry Blanton [mailto:hohlr...@gmail.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2012 10:12 AM
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: [Vo]:NASA: We think we found something . . .

. . . but it will be weeks before we can tell you:

http://www.npr.org/2012/11/20/165513016/big-news-from-mars-rover-scientists-
mum-for-now

(I hate it when they do that!)

[Vo]:Gibbs: Cold fusion and unintended consequences

Gibbs published a new article:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/markgibbs/2012/11/20/cold-fusion-and-unintended-consequences/

For once I have no objection! He says nothing unreasonable.

I posted the following response:


Gibbs is correct. The problems he describes may occur with cold fusion.
These problems -- and others -- have been discussed by several people since
the discovery of cold fusion, especially: Martin Fleischmann, Stanley Pons,
Arthur C. Clarke, David Nagel, Michael McKubre, Michael Melich, Eugene
Mallove, Anthony Lovins, Jeremy Rifkin, Adm. Sir Anthony Griffin and me. I
described some of their conclusions in chapters 11, 12 and 19 of my book,
“Cold Fusion and the Future.” The book is here:

http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/RothwellJcoldfusiona.pdf

Some of these problems are not likely to be as serious as Gibbs fears. The
total nuclear waste from cold fusion cells is likely to be very small. It
should be easily contained because the cells will be sealed units, like
batteries. As long as the recycling plants are designed and run correctly,
this should not be a problem. Clarke discussed the heat islands problem.
He, I and others concluded that even with low Carnot efficiency, savings
from co-generation space heating will likely lower overall heat releases.
Agriculture from desalinated water may be a problem, but not if the
standards of Israeli and Saudi desalination plants are adhered to. These
and other examples demonstrate that the use of cold fusion will have to
regulated to some extent.

Granted, there are many other unintended consequences. They are
anticipated, but not intended. There are also a host of evil applications
for cold fusion, some of which I describe in the book. Fleischmann and Pons
delayed the introduction of cold fusion for a few years partly because they
feared some of these applications. They thought it might be a good idea for
the Department of Defense to classify the research.

- Jed

RE: [Vo]:430 kHz may be a LENR signature

2012-11-21 Thread Roarty, Francis X

Jones,
Time and frequency may experience Lorentzian  expansion since there is no 
spatial displacement if the oscillation is initiated while the environment is 
contracted.. the electromagnetic oscillations occurring in the same Casimir 
environment with fractional/relativistic hydrogen might appear to slow down 
proportionally as the fractional hydrogen returns to normal size... never 
changed size in fact from it's own local perspective but rather the Casimir 
suppression changed C in the region between the geometry so you have a new way 
to alter the ratio of V^2/C^2 where velocity and spatial vector  is of little 
importance compared to geometry and time [with suppression instead of velocity 
we outside the cavity appear to slow down due to dilation relative to a tiny 
observer in the cavity]..I posit this suppression at this nano geometry swamps 
out the gravitational square law we are bound to at the macro and breaks the 
isotropy / the normal slew rate for equivalent inertial frames is trumped by 
geometry...if this turns out to be related to catalytic action and the claims 
of modified radioactive decay then I would posit the dilation is more intense 
than the claims would suggest. The claims of modified decay rates represent the 
averaged  rate for the radioactive gas , most of which is only exposed to 
lesser -non Casimir - confinement, this would mean the active sites responsible 
for anomalous heat in other claims may have a much higher dilation factor / 
smaller fractionalized hydrogen than we are being led to believe.
Fran

_
From: Jones Beene [mailto:jone...@pacbell.net]
Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2012 6:59 PM
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: EXTERNAL: [Vo]:430 kHz may be a LENR signature


There is an RF signal which appears to have a strong correlation to excess 
heating events in one kind of LENR. This is from a recent paper at ICCF17.

The signal has a frequency of .43 MHz (430 kHz). This seems to be a signature - 
and a strong one. But it is too early to generalize.

I have looked high and low to find some broader significance to this particular 
frequency, but nothing seems to turn up. This is longwave once used for Morse 
code and warning beacons, but not much used anymore. Who wants a 700 meter 
antenna?

There is some relevance to Rabi frequency and to MRI but this seems 
incidental.

A real connection to nuclear events seems extremely remote, given the 
wavelength - but it is there, and knowing why it is there could be important.

Very strange...

Re: [Vo]:Gibbs: Cold fusion and unintended consequences

I should welcome Gibbs to the Reality Based community for these comments:

. . . it seems there may well be a real effect producing anomalous heat in
experimental setups.

The experimental stuff is all well and good but so far no one has managed
to definitively demonstrate that whatever the effect is can be reliably
harnessed to provide a useful energy source.

He should have mentioned that the experimental results have never been
refuted, and after 23 years it is safe to say they are irrefutable. If the
skeptics could have found a problem, they would have by now. The best they
can come up with is Jones' claim that recombination is a problem with a
closed cell.

Reliability is unproved, as Gibbs says. The fact that the effect can be
scaled up was proved definitively by the explosion at U. Utah, and later by
Mizuno's inadvertent heat after death event, which boiled away 17 liters of
water in 5 days.

See:

http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/MizunoTnucleartra.pdf

If we can get the cells to do that on demand, in a controlled fashion,
there is not the slightest doubt this will be a practical source of energy.
That would be true even if the effect only worked with palladium.

A device of the same size and temperature of Mizuno's cell would, by
itself, be sufficient to power a surprisingly large fraction of our
industrial civilization. You may not think so at first, but you have to
take into account the fact that most machines consume less than 100 W.

- Jed

Re: [Vo]:NASA: We think we found something . . .

I'll bet they told Mr. Obama. No fair! I wanna know!

- Jed

Re: [Vo]:NASA: We think we found something . . .

2012-11-21 Thread Patrick Ellul

It's either traces of methane, or possibly some organic compounds. I doubt
it's dinosaur fossils.

On Thu, Nov 22, 2012 at 6:48 AM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com wrote:

 I'll bet they told Mr. Obama. No fair! I wanna know!

 - Jed




-- 
Patrick

www.tRacePerfect.com
The daily puzzle everyone can finish but not everyone can perfect!
The quickest puzzle ever!

RE: [Vo]:NASA: We think we found something . . .

2012-11-21 Thread Jones Beene

Nov 21 add 4 weeks ... hmmm ... Dec 22  :-)



-Original Message-
From: MarkI-ZeroPoint 

... but it will be weeks before we can tell you

Sounds like a little bit of Rossi has rubbed off on NASA...

-Original Message-
From: Terry Blanton 

. . . but it will be weeks before we can tell you:

http://www.npr.org/2012/11/20/165513016/big-news-from-mars-rover-scientists-
mum-for-now

(I hate it when they do that!)

attachment: winmail.dat

Re: [Vo]:NASA: We think we found something . . .

2012-11-21 Thread Craig

On 11/21/2012 03:12 PM, Jones Beene wrote:
 Nov 21 add 4 weeks ... hmmm ... Dec 22  :-)

 Grotzinger confirmed to SPACE.com that the news will come out at the
fall meeting of the American Geophysical Union, which takes place Dec.
3-7 in San Francisco. 

http://www.space.com/18565-mars-rover-curiosity-discovery-mystery.html

Craig

Re: [Vo]:NASA: We think we found something . . .

2012-11-21 Thread Alan Fletcher


I won't believe it until they send another Curiosity and run a blank test.

Re: [Vo]:Steven Jones: Excess heat is real, but probably not nuclear

2012-11-21 Thread mixent

In reply to  David Roberson's message of Wed, 21 Nov 2012 01:07:06 -0500 (EST):
Hi,
[snip]
Thinking of acousticsIf the hemispheres are very accurately machined then 
any ultrasonic excitement of the surface that is symmetrical will form waves 
that collide at the center of the device.  Very large pressure will be 
generated similar to the collapse of a bubble.  I know of a fingerprint 
reading technique that uses a partial half sphere emitter of ultrasonic 
energy.  This allows reading of the finger shape very accurately even through 
rubber gloves since the energy is focused to a tiny point.

This is not a bad idea. The speed of sound in water is about 1500 m/s. A 5 mm
separation distance would imply a wavelength of 5 mm, which in turn implies a
frequency of about 350 kHz, which is certainly in the ballpark.



Maybe the extreme pressure can lead to a form of LENR that generates excess 
heating in water.


I wonder whether the effect is due to ultrasonic or RF activation.  A 
'resonator' could apply to both and the frequencies used for ultrasonic 
generation are within the RF range.


I also would assume that the structure has an RF resonance, but it would 
definitely posses an ultrasonic one.  If the Q of the ultrasonic resonator is 
high, then standing waves would form within the structure.  A moderate amount 
of drive energy could result in a far larger amount of stored energy in this 
configuration.  Perhaps this type of system would behave as a cavitation 
generator on steroids. 

Especially if the RF resonant frequency matched the ultrasonic one? (Tunable
with a variable inductance coil in the RF circuit.)


Years ago I suggested that sono-fusion might be mediated by Hydrinos created in
the plasma at the heart of the bubble by the action of O++ as a Mills catalyst.
Mills has recently suggested (CIHT) that nascent H2O could also function as a
catalyst. (Single water molecules catalyze, where molecules bound by Hydrogen
bonds in a liquid water don't.) The high temperatures found in the bubbles would
be more than sufficient to vaporize some of the liquid water, creating
individual molecules, and also some free H atoms for them to catalyze.

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://rvanspaa.freehostia.com/project.html

Re: [Vo]:Gibbs: Cold fusion and unintended consequences

As a superior engineering approach, I favor the Papp reaction which
extracts energy out of the quantum foam.

Its conversion efficiency of pressure to electricity is in the high 90’s
percentages with little or no heat production.

The reactions typically referred to as cold fusion will be discarded as
antiquated and resource intensive when compared to the Papp reaction.

The Papp reaction does not modify the nucleus of the noble gases that carry
its energy content so no waste products are produced.

These minuscule 500 CCs of noble gases that enable the Papp reaction do not
deteriorate for many years and are essentially indestructible.

These noble gases do not produce toxic or radioactive wastes and this clean
gas phased single stage electrical generation operating regime reduces the
total cost of electric power production from the Papp reaction to the
absolute minimum.

Coupled with Papp electric generators, zero heat producing electric LED
lighting will not add to the urban heat load.

Cheers: Axil

On Wed, Nov 21, 2012 at 2:23 PM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com wrote:

Gibbs published a new article:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/markgibbs/2012/11/20/cold-fusion-and-unintended-consequences/

For once I have no objection! He says nothing unreasonable.

I posted the following response:

Gibbs is correct. The problems he describes may occur with cold fusion.
These problems -- and others -- have been discussed by several people since
the discovery of cold fusion, especially: Martin Fleischmann, Stanley Pons,
Arthur C. Clarke, David Nagel, Michael McKubre, Michael Melich, Eugene
Mallove, Anthony Lovins, Jeremy Rifkin, Adm. Sir Anthony Griffin and me. I
described some of their conclusions in chapters 11, 12 and 19 of my book,
“Cold Fusion and the Future.” The book is here:

http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/RothwellJcoldfusiona.pdf

Some of these problems are not likely to be as serious as Gibbs fears. The
total nuclear waste from cold fusion cells is likely to be very small. It
should be easily contained because the cells will be sealed units, like
batteries. As long as the recycling plants are designed and run correctly,
this should not be a problem. Clarke discussed the heat islands problem.
He, I and others concluded that even with low Carnot efficiency, savings
from co-generation space heating will likely lower overall heat releases.
Agriculture from desalinated water may be a problem, but not if the
standards of Israeli and Saudi desalination plants are adhered to. These
and other examples demonstrate that the use of cold fusion will have to
regulated to some extent.

Granted, there are many other unintended consequences. They are
anticipated, but not intended. There are also a host of evil applications
for cold fusion, some of which I describe in the book. Fleischmann and Pons
delayed the introduction of cold fusion for a few years partly because they
feared some of these applications. They thought it might be a good idea for
the Department of Defense to classify the research.

- Jed

Re: [Vo]:Gibbs: Cold fusion and unintended consequences

Axil Axil janap...@gmail.com wrote:

 Gibbs is wrong. There are many roads to over unity energy production. . . .

Wrong about what?

I do not think anyone has conclusively demonstrated a practical device yet.
Even assuming Rossi is correct, I would not call his reactors practical.
They are about as impractical as a 1908 model Wright Flyer, which was
basically a machine to kill pilots.

- Jed

Re: [Vo]:Gibbs: Cold fusion and unintended consequences

Wrong in that over unity power production cannot be engineered without
significant environmental downsides.

Axil
On Wed, Nov 21, 2012 at 4:16 PM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com wrote:

 Axil Axil janap...@gmail.com wrote:

 Gibbs is wrong. There are many roads to over unity energy production. . .
 .

 Wrong about what?

 I do not think anyone has conclusively demonstrated a practical device
 yet. Even assuming Rossi is correct, I would not call his reactors
 practical. They are about as impractical as a 1908 model Wright Flyer,
 which was basically a machine to kill pilots.

 - Jed

Re: [Vo]:NASA: We think we found something . . .

2012-11-21 Thread Esa Ruoho

It'll be fine, Peter Molyneux already did:
https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/curiosity-whats-inside-cube/id557549271?mt=8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b72HoQSQmEk - Curiosity, What's in the box?


On Wed, Nov 21, 2012 at 10:42 PM, Alan Fletcher a...@well.com wrote:

 I won't believe it until they send another Curiosity and run a blank test.

Re: [Vo]:NASA: We think we found something . . .

2012-11-21 Thread James Bowery

MSNBC news from a couple weeks ago:

Curiosity finds no methane on Mars — *not yet, anyway*

http://technology-science.newsvine.com/_news/2012/11/02/14886341-curiosity-finds-no-methane-on-mars-not-yet-anyway

On Wed, Nov 21, 2012 at 2:42 PM, Alan Fletcher a...@well.com wrote:

 I won't believe it until they send another Curiosity and run a blank test.

Re: [Vo]:Gibbs: Cold fusion and unintended consequences

Axil Axil janap...@gmail.com wrote:


 Wrong in that over unity power production cannot be engineered without
 significant environmental downsides.


Yeah, I agree with that. But I do not think Gibbs is saying that downsides
are inevitable. He is saying they are possible, especially if people use
the energy carelessly. I think he makes a good point. I made the same point
in chapter 19 of my book. People can turn any blessing into a curse.

Gibbs mentions the likelihood of cheap machines with low Carnot efficiency
being a problem, because they produce too much waste heat and cause urban
heat islands. I added a comment about this to his blog:

. . . While this may be a problem, there is a lower limit to it. A machine
with only 2 to 4% efficiency would have a giant motor. It would look like a
19th century steam tractor. It would end up costing more than a machine
with Carnot efficiency of ~10%, which is approximately what cars were like
in 1960.

- Jed

RE: [Vo]:Steven Jones: Excess heat is real, but probably not nuclear

2012-11-21 Thread Jones Beene

Curiously, 430 kHz is also in the range which is considered to be
ultrasound.

 

That frequency turns up as a signature of one form of LENR, according to
recent revelations - and it would be a mistake to over-generalize from that
alone; but . there are a number of principles of reciprocity which turn up
in electromagnetism, so it is not at stretch to imagine that this frequency
would be of interest when used as input. 

 

From: David Roberson 

 

Thinking of acousticsIf the hemispheres are very accurately machined
then any ultrasonic excitement of the surface that is symmetrical will form
waves that collide at the center of the device.

Re: [Vo]:NASA: We think we found something . . .

2012-11-21 Thread Ron Kita

Found on Mars...a Prius Hup CapO--OT.
Happy Thanksgiving.   In the East we are happy for 'lectricity.
Next year we will be happy for LENR or Warm Fusion.

RonK

On Wed, Nov 21, 2012 at 4:45 PM, James Bowery jabow...@gmail.com wrote:

 MSNBC news from a couple weeks ago:

 Curiosity finds no methane on Mars — *not yet, anyway*


 http://technology-science.newsvine.com/_news/2012/11/02/14886341-curiosity-finds-no-methane-on-mars-not-yet-anyway

 On Wed, Nov 21, 2012 at 2:42 PM, Alan Fletcher a...@well.com wrote:

 I won't believe it until they send another Curiosity and run a blank test.

Re: [Vo]:Steven Jones: Excess heat is real, but probably not nuclear

On Wed, Nov 21, 2012 at 5:09 PM, Jones Beene jone...@pacbell.net wrote:
 Curiously, 430 kHz is also in the range which is considered to be
 ultrasound…

10 times Stanley Meyer's dissociation frequency, too.

RE: [Vo]:Steven Jones: Excess heat is real, but probably not nuclear

2012-11-21 Thread MarkI-ZeroPoint

I just remembered something that ties in with the 430Khz. and anomalous
effects with water and piezos.

 

When I was involved with the International Tesla Society back in the 80s, we
would meet once a month to discuss fringe topics, and a few of the group
were hacking together some experiments. nothing earth shattering ever came
of their work that I know of.

 

One of the regulars was a very introverted guy, physics degree, who was
quite intelligent; worked in the semiconductor industry.  He told us about
something he'd heard of a way to 'aetherize' water. went from liquid to
'nothing' w/o boiling. Had to use a fused quartz cylindrical tube (6L by
~1.5 I.D.), water (pure?), 500+W signal generator hooked up to piezo
transducer which was glued/epoxied to one open end of the quartz tube.  Fill
tube with water, but had to calc the wavelength of the sound wave and keep
the water level at least at a multiple of the wavelength. what was the
frequency  ~41Khz to 43Khz!  Just a coincidence, I'm sure.

 

Could it be done at any frequency so long as the height of the water column
was a multiple of the wavelength of the sound waves generated by the piezo
transducer?  Don't think so. but we never got as far as trying it.  I moved
out of the area and shortly thereafter the Tesla Society went belly-up.
Never heard anything more about it.

 

Oh, the story was that it wasn't a good idea to put your hand over the
quartz tube when operating.. When the water 'aetherized', it pretty much
instantly disappeared from the quartz tube, apparently as an
'aether-bullet', and put a hole thru whatever was in the 'line of fire'
(e.g., the ceiling and roof).  yeah, that's what I thought too, but the vids
that Jones posted about Davey and WITTS, makes me wonder if that spherical
stainless steel contraption is somewhat related. just slightly out-of-tune
so as not to aetherize the water.

 

It's all about resonance.

 

-Mark Iverson

 

From: Jones Beene [mailto:jone...@pacbell.net] 
Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2012 2:10 PM
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: RE: [Vo]:Steven Jones: Excess heat is real, but probably not
nuclear

 

Curiously, 430 kHz is also in the range which is considered to be
ultrasound.

 

That frequency turns up as a signature of one form of LENR, according to
recent revelations - and it would be a mistake to over-generalize from that
alone; but . there are a number of principles of reciprocity which turn up
in electromagnetism, so it is not at stretch to imagine that this frequency
would be of interest when used as input. 

 

From: David Roberson 

 

Thinking of acousticsIf the hemispheres are very accurately machined
then any ultrasonic excitement of the surface that is symmetrical will form
waves that collide at the center of the device.

Re: [Vo]:Steven Jones: Excess heat is real, but probably not nuclear

2012-11-21 Thread ken deboer

Interesting stuff (even to a completely ignorant one like me).  Have y'all
heard of  the work at Rice Univ. by Halas et al vaporizing (cold) water
directly in a couple seconds by various nanoparticles. In ACS Nano.

On Wed, Nov 21, 2012 at 3:43 PM, MarkI-ZeroPoint zeropo...@charter.netwrote:

 I just remembered something that ties in with the 430Khz… and anomalous
 effects with water and piezos.

 ** **

 When I was involved with the International Tesla Society back in the 80s,
 we would meet once a month to discuss fringe topics, and a few of the group
 were hacking together some experiments… nothing earth shattering ever came
 of their work that I know of.

 ** **

 One of the regulars was a very introverted guy, physics degree, who was
 quite intelligent; worked in the semiconductor industry.  He told us about
 something he’d heard of a way to ‘aetherize’ water… went from liquid to
 ‘nothing’ w/o boiling… Had to use a fused quartz cylindrical tube (6”L by
 ~1.5” I.D.), water (pure?), 500+W signal generator hooked up to piezo
 transducer which was glued/epoxied to one open end of the quartz tube.
 Fill tube with water, but had to calc the wavelength of the sound wave and
 keep the water level at least at a multiple of the wavelength… what was the
 frequency  ~*41Khz to 43Khz*!  Just a coincidence, I’m sure…

 ** **

 Could it be done at any frequency so long as the height of the water
 column was a multiple of the wavelength of the sound waves generated by the
 piezo transducer?  Don’t think so… but we never got as far as trying it.  I
 moved out of the area and shortly thereafter the Tesla Society went
 belly-up.  Never heard anything more about it…

 ** **

 Oh, the story was that it wasn’t a good idea to put your hand over the
 quartz tube when operating…. When the water ‘aetherized’, it pretty much
 instantly disappeared from the quartz tube, apparently as an
 ‘aether-bullet’, and put a hole thru whatever was in the ‘line of fire’
 (e.g., the ceiling and roof)…  yeah, that’s what I thought too, but the
 vids that Jones posted about Davey and WITTS, makes me wonder if that
 spherical stainless steel contraption is somewhat related… just slightly
 out-of-tune so as not to aetherize the water.

 ** **

 It’s all about resonance…

 ** **

 -Mark Iverson

 ** **

 *From:* Jones Beene [mailto:jone...@pacbell.net]
 *Sent:* Wednesday, November 21, 2012 2:10 PM
 *To:* vortex-l@eskimo.com
 *Subject:* RE: [Vo]:Steven Jones: Excess heat is real, but probably not
 nuclear

 ** **

 Curiously, 430 kHz is also in the range which is considered to be
 ultrasound…

 ** **

 That frequency turns up as a signature of one form of LENR, according to
 recent revelations - and it would be a mistake to over-generalize from that
 alone; but … there are a number of principles of reciprocity which turn up
 in electromagnetism, so it is not at stretch to imagine that this frequency
 would be of interest when used as input. 

 ** **

 *From:* David Roberson 

 ** **

 Thinking of acousticsIf the hemispheres are very accurately machined
 then any ultrasonic excitement of the surface that is symmetrical will form
 waves that collide at the center of the device.  

 ** **

[Vo]:The world's tallest building will be built in 90 days starting in January

Finally, a breakthrough in the construction of large buildings. See:

http://newsfeed.time.com/2012/11/20/china-plans-to-build-the-worlds-largest-skyscraper-in-just-90-days/

This will open the way to things like gigantic food factories (indoor
farms).

- Jed

Re: [Vo]:The world's tallest building will be built in 90 days starting in January

2012-11-21 Thread Daniel Rocha

I think this is not a breakthrough properly.  They are just not ashamed of
making that big structures can be ugly and cheap as long as it works.
Besides, the building is probably already built, it just has to be
assembled in place.


2012/11/21 Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com

 Finally, a breakthrough in the construction of large buildings. See:


 http://newsfeed.time.com/2012/11/20/china-plans-to-build-the-worlds-largest-skyscraper-in-just-90-days/

 This will open the way to things like gigantic food factories (indoor
 farms).

 - Jed




-- 
Daniel Rocha - RJ
danieldi...@gmail.com

[VO]: More support for variable radioactive decay rates...

2012-11-21 Thread Andy Findlay


  
  
From New Scientist (needs free registration):

Half-life


strife: Seasons change in the atom's heart

Nothing is supposed to speed up or slow down radioactive
decay. So how come the sun seems to be messing with some of our
elements? 

The evidence keeps accumulating...

Andy Findlay

Re: [Vo]:NASA: We think we found something . . .

2012-11-21 Thread Harry Veeder

On Wed, Nov 21, 2012 at 3:42 PM, Alan Fletcher a...@well.com wrote:
 I won't believe it until they send another Curiosity and run a blank test.


I won't accept the result unless this second rover is built and
operated by a group people with no affiliation to NASA.

Harry

Re: [Vo]:The world's tallest building will be built in 90 days starting in January

Daniel Rocha danieldi...@gmail.com wrote:

I think this is not a breakthrough properly.  They are just not ashamed of
 making that big structures can be ugly and cheap as long as it works.


That is true. That is why I say this would be idea for food factories and
other large industrial complexes.


Besides, the building is probably already built, it just has to be
 assembled in place.


It is prefabricated. However, the overall cost and man-hours are much
smaller, and the construction process is safer than assembling components
on site. The building is reportedly stronger, and more earthquake proof
than conventional buildings would be, and despite that it takes less
material to make.

So, all in all, I would say it is an important breakthrough. It is what you
might call an incremental breakthrough, that seems obvious in retrospect,
yet which was more difficult to implement than it might seem. Other
breakthroughs like this include multi-modal containerized shipping, and the
Internet.

- Jed

Re: [Vo]:The world's tallest building will be built in 90 days starting in January

2012-11-21 Thread Daniel Rocha

This is the scary part.


2012/11/21 Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com

  The building is *reportedly* stronger




-- 
Daniel Rocha - RJ
danieldi...@gmail.com

Re: [Vo]:The world's tallest building will be built in 90 days starting in January

Totally 3D printed.

Re: [Vo]:The world's tallest building will be built in 90 days starting in January

On Wed, Nov 21, 2012 at 8:41 PM, Daniel Rocha danieldi...@gmail.com wrote:

 This is the scary part.


 2012/11/21 Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com

  The building is *reportedly* stronger


Oh come now. There are many first-rate architects and engineers in China.
Before they spend a huge sum of money and build the world's tallest,
biggest building, you can be sure the government and others confirmed the
structural integrity.

- Jed

[Vo]:25 experiments completed with borax and nickels

2012-11-21 Thread Jack Cole

Hi folks,

I have completed a long series of experiments utilizing borax, standard
nickels (combined with thoriated tungsten rods), and an automated Android
phone control system.  Although I developed some cool methods of running
experiments, I have to conclude that I found no anomalous heating.

Here is the final write-up and presentation.

http://www.lenr-coldfusion.com/2012/11/22/automated-android-electrolysis-system-experiments-1-25/

Best regards,
Jack

Re: [VO]: More support for variable radioactive decay rates...

2012-11-21 Thread Eric Walker

New Scientist is a general science magazine.  Perhaps the article below
references a basic research paper that can be found on Arxiv?

Eric


On Wed, Nov 21, 2012 at 3:29 PM, Andy Findlay andy_find...@orange.netwrote:

 From New Scientist (needs free registration):

 *Half-life strife: Seasons change in the atom's 
 hearthttp://www.newscientist.com/article/mg21628912.300-halflife-strife-seasons-change-in-the-atoms-heart.html?
 *
 *Nothing is supposed to speed up or slow down radioactive decay. So how
 come the sun seems to be messing with some of our elements?
 *
 The evidence keeps accumulating...

 Andy Findlay*
 *

Re: [Vo]:Gibbs: Cold fusion and unintended consequences

Axil, it has not been proven that the Papp engine is capable of performing as 
advertised.  I have serious doubts from what has been demonstrated to date and 
it is wise to continue to pursue technology that we know exists.


Can you point me to a recent demonstration that actually shows a Papp engine 
generating mechanical power that is measurable?  All I recall so far are some 
interesting experiments that are basically a one hit pony.  We need to see a 
continuously running machine.


I would like very much to believe that the Papp concept is valid.  So far I am 
not convinced.


Dave



-Original Message-
From: Axil Axil janap...@gmail.com
To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com
Sent: Wed, Nov 21, 2012 4:14 pm
Subject: Re: [Vo]:Gibbs: Cold fusion and unintended consequences


Gibbs is wrong. There are many roads to over unity energy production. 
Eventually the top over unity performers will win out. The production of heat 
from LENR is the least desirable, efficient and resource intensive of those 
various over unity energy production methods.
As a superior engineering approach, I favor the Papp reaction which extracts 
energy out of the quantum foam. 
Its conversion efficiency of pressure to electricity is in the high 90’s 
percentages with little or no heat production.
The reactions typically referred to as cold fusion will be discarded as 
antiquated and resource intensive when compared to the Papp reaction.
The Papp reaction does not modify the nucleus of the noble gases that carry its 
energy content so no waste products are produced.
These minuscule 500 CCs of noble gases that enable the Papp reaction do not 
deteriorate for many years and are essentially indestructible. 
These noble gases do not produce toxic or radioactive wastes and this clean gas 
phased single stage electrical generation operating regime reduces the total 
cost of electric power production from the Papp reaction to the absolute 
minimum.
Coupled with Papp electric generators, zero heat producing electric LED 
lighting will not add to the urban heat load. 
  
Cheers: Axil


On Wed, Nov 21, 2012 at 2:23 PM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com wrote:

Gibbs published a new article:


http://www.forbes.com/sites/markgibbs/2012/11/20/cold-fusion-and-unintended-consequences/


For once I have no objection! He says nothing unreasonable.


I posted the following response:





Gibbs is correct. The problems he describes may occur with cold fusion. These 
problems -- and others -- have been discussed by several people since the 
discovery of cold fusion, especially: Martin Fleischmann, Stanley Pons, Arthur 
C. Clarke, David Nagel, Michael McKubre, Michael Melich, Eugene Mallove, 
Anthony Lovins, Jeremy Rifkin, Adm. Sir Anthony Griffin and me. I described 
some of their conclusions in chapters 11, 12 and 19 of my book, “Cold Fusion 
and the Future.” The book is here:


http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/RothwellJcoldfusiona.pdf


Some of these problems are not likely to be as serious as Gibbs fears. The 
total nuclear waste from cold fusion cells is likely to be very small. It 
should be easily contained because the cells will be sealed units, like 
batteries. As long as the recycling plants are designed and run correctly, this 
should not be a problem. Clarke discussed the heat islands problem. He, I and 
others concluded that even with low Carnot efficiency, savings from 
co-generation space heating will likely lower overall heat releases. 
Agriculture from desalinated water may be a problem, but not if the standards 
of Israeli and Saudi desalination plants are adhered to. These and other 
examples demonstrate that the use of cold fusion will have to regulated to some 
extent.


Granted, there are many other unintended consequences. They are anticipated, 
but not intended. There are also a host of evil applications for cold fusion, 
some of which I describe in the book. Fleischmann and Pons delayed the 
introduction of cold fusion for a few years partly because they feared some of 
these applications. They thought it might be a good idea for the Department of 
Defense to classify the research.



- Jed

Re: [VO]: More support for variable radioactive decay rates...

2012-11-21 Thread Jeff Berkowitz

http://arxiv.org/abs/1207.5783
http://arxiv.org/abs/1007.3318
http://arxiv.org/abs/1107.4074
http://arxiv.org/abs/0808.3156

Analysis:
http://phys.org/news201795438.html


Refutation:
http://arxiv.org/abs/1208.4357


On Wed, Nov 21, 2012 at 7:55 PM, Eric Walker eric.wal...@gmail.com wrote:

 New Scientist is a general science magazine.  Perhaps the article below
 references a basic research paper that can be found on Arxiv?

 Eric


 On Wed, Nov 21, 2012 at 3:29 PM, Andy Findlay andy_find...@orange.netwrote:

  From New Scientist (needs free registration):

 *Half-life strife: Seasons change in the atom's 
 hearthttp://www.newscientist.com/article/mg21628912.300-halflife-strife-seasons-change-in-the-atoms-heart.html?
 *
 *Nothing is supposed to speed up or slow down radioactive decay. So how
 come the sun seems to be messing with some of our elements?
 *
 The evidence keeps accumulating...

 Andy Findlay*
 *

Re: [VO]: More support for variable radioactive decay rates...

2012-11-21 Thread Jeff Berkowitz

Refutation should have said Criticism.
Jeff


On Wed, Nov 21, 2012 at 8:21 PM, Jeff Berkowitz pdx...@gmail.com wrote:

 http://arxiv.org/abs/1207.5783
 http://arxiv.org/abs/1007.3318
 http://arxiv.org/abs/1107.4074
 http://arxiv.org/abs/0808.3156

 Analysis:
 http://phys.org/news201795438.html


 Refutation:
 http://arxiv.org/abs/1208.4357


 On Wed, Nov 21, 2012 at 7:55 PM, Eric Walker eric.wal...@gmail.comwrote:

 New Scientist is a general science magazine.  Perhaps the article below
 references a basic research paper that can be found on Arxiv?

 Eric


 On Wed, Nov 21, 2012 at 3:29 PM, Andy Findlay andy_find...@orange.netwrote:

  From New Scientist (needs free registration):

 *Half-life strife: Seasons change in the atom's 
 hearthttp://www.newscientist.com/article/mg21628912.300-halflife-strife-seasons-change-in-the-atoms-heart.html?
 *
 *Nothing is supposed to speed up or slow down radioactive decay. So how
 come the sun seems to be messing with some of our elements?
 *
 The evidence keeps accumulating...

 Andy Findlay*
 *

Re: [Vo]:Gibbs: Cold fusion and unintended consequences

To my best knowledge, the Papp engine is the only over unity invention to
have ever received an American patent.

The self-powered Papp engine was tested by independent and objective
parties and certified under oath to be functional and witnessed to produce
over 100 horsepower.

The Papp reaction was tested under the supervision of the navy and observed
by defense contractors to split open and shatter a 6 inch diameter 3/8
inches thick steel gun barrel when its projectile jammed in that barrel.

An isolated and completely self-powered Papp engine produced sufficient
power to explode with such force to kill and injure multiple observers.

IMHO, the Papp reaction has proven to be more viable than any other over
unity devices with a COP of infinity.

http://www.infinite-energy.com/iemagazine/issue51/papp.html

On Wed, Nov 21, 2012 at 11:18 PM, David Roberson dlrober...@aol.com wrote:

Axil, it has not been proven that the Papp engine is capable of performing
as advertised. I have serious doubts from what has been demonstrated to
date and it is wise to continue to pursue technology that we know exists.

Can you point me to a recent demonstration that actually shows a Papp
engine generating mechanical power that is measurable? All I recall so far
are some interesting experiments that are basically a one hit pony. We
need to see a continuously running machine.

I would like very much to believe that the Papp concept is valid. So
far I am not convinced.

Dave

-Original Message-
From: Axil Axil janap...@gmail.com
To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com
Sent: Wed, Nov 21, 2012 4:14 pm
Subject: Re: [Vo]:Gibbs: Cold fusion and unintended consequences

Gibbs is wrong. There are many roads to over unity energy production.
Eventually the top over unity performers will win out. The production of
heat from LENR is the least desirable, efficient and resource intensive of
those various over unity energy production methods.
As a superior engineering approach, I favor the Papp reaction which
extracts energy out of the quantum foam.
Its conversion efficiency of pressure to electricity is in the high 90’s
percentages with little or no heat production.
The reactions typically referred to as cold fusion will be discarded as
antiquated and resource intensive when compared to the Papp reaction.
The Papp reaction does not modify the nucleus of the noble gases that
carry its energy content so no waste products are produced.
These minuscule 500 CCs of noble gases that enable the Papp reaction do
not deteriorate for many years and are essentially indestructible.
These noble gases do not produce toxic or radioactive wastes and this
clean gas phased single stage electrical generation operating regime
reduces the total cost of electric power production from the Papp reaction
to the absolute minimum.
Coupled with Papp electric generators, zero heat producing electric LED
lighting will not add to the urban heat load.

Cheers: Axil

On Wed, Nov 21, 2012 at 2:23 PM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.comwrote:

Gibbs published a new article:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/markgibbs/2012/11/20/cold-fusion-and-unintended-consequences/

For once I have no objection! He says nothing unreasonable.

I posted the following response:

http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/RothwellJcoldfusiona.pdf

Some of these problems are not likely to be as serious as Gibbs fears.
The total nuclear waste from cold fusion cells is likely to be very small.
It should be easily contained because the cells will be sealed units, like
batteries. As long as the recycling plants are designed and run correctly,
this should not be a problem. Clarke discussed the heat islands problem.
He, I and others concluded that even with low Carnot efficiency, savings
from co-generation space heating will likely lower overall heat releases.
Agriculture from desalinated water may be a problem, but not if the
standards of Israeli and Saudi desalination plants are adhered to. These
and other examples demonstrate that the use of cold fusion will have to
regulated to some extent.

Re: [Vo]:25 experiments completed with borax and nickels

Jack,

I suggest that you rerun your experiment with nanosecond duration pulsed
direct current using capacitive discharge.

You have not tested the hypothesis that high instantaneous pulse power
output will trigger over unity power production as has been demonstrated
by  Brillouin Energy.





Cheers:   Axil

On Wed, Nov 21, 2012 at 10:43 PM, Jack Cole jcol...@gmail.com wrote:

 Hi folks,

 I have completed a long series of experiments utilizing borax, standard
 nickels (combined with thoriated tungsten rods), and an automated Android
 phone control system.  Although I developed some cool methods of running
 experiments, I have to conclude that I found no anomalous heating.

 Here is the final write-up and presentation.


 http://www.lenr-coldfusion.com/2012/11/22/automated-android-electrolysis-system-experiments-1-25/

 Best regards,
 Jack

Re: [Vo]:Gibbs: Cold fusion and unintended consequences


Show me a currently available and operating device that can be independently 
proven and I will be convinced.   The burden is upon those that make the 
extraordinary claims.  If it was done once, then it should be possible to do it 
again.


I know I sounds like the typical cold fusion denier, but cold fusion has been 
replicated and can be demonstrated currently.  Why not require the same level 
of proof for the Papp devices?


Dave  


-Original Message-
From: Axil Axil janap...@gmail.com
To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com
Sent: Thu, Nov 22, 2012 12:11 am
Subject: Re: [Vo]:Gibbs: Cold fusion and unintended consequences


To my best knowledge, the Papp engine is the only over unity invention to have 
ever received an American patent.
The self-powered Papp engine was tested by independent and objective parties 
and certified under oath to be functional and witnessed to produce over 100 
horsepower.
The Papp reaction was tested under the supervision of the navy and observed by 
defense contractors to split open and shatter a 6 inch diameter 3/8 inches 
thick steel gun  barrel when its projectile jammed in that barrel.
An isolated and completely self-powered Papp engine produced sufficient power 
to explode with such force to kill and injure multiple observers.
IMHO, the Papp reaction has proven to be more viable than any other over unity 
devices with a COP of infinity.
http://www.infinite-energy.com/iemagazine/issue51/papp.html



On Wed, Nov 21, 2012 at 11:18 PM, David Roberson dlrober...@aol.com wrote:

Axil, it has not been proven that the Papp engine is capable of performing as 
advertised.  I have serious doubts from what has been demonstrated to date and 
it is wise to continue to pursue technology that we know exists.


Can you point me to a recent demonstration that actually shows a Papp engine 
generating mechanical power that is measurable?  All I recall so far are some 
interesting experiments that are basically a one hit pony.  We need to see a 
continuously running machine.


I would like very much to believe that the Papp concept is valid.  So far I am 
not convinced.


Dave




-Original Message-
From: Axil Axil janap...@gmail.com
To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com
Sent: Wed, Nov 21, 2012 4:14 pm
Subject: Re: [Vo]:Gibbs: Cold fusion and unintended consequences


Gibbs is wrong. There are many roads to over unity energy production. 
Eventually the top over unity performers will win out. The production of heat 
from LENR is the least desirable, efficient and resource intensive of those 
various over unity energy production methods.
As a superior engineering approach, I favor the Papp reaction which extracts 
energy out of the quantum foam. 
Its conversion efficiency of pressure to electricity is in the high 90’s 
percentages with little or no heat production.
The reactions typically referred to as cold fusion will be discarded as 
antiquated and resource intensive when compared to the Papp reaction.
The Papp reaction does not modify the nucleus of the noble gases that carry its 
energy content so no waste products are produced.
These minuscule 500 CCs of noble gases that enable the Papp reaction do not 
deteriorate for many years and are essentially indestructible. 
These noble gases do not produce toxic or radioactive wastes and this clean gas 
phased single stage electrical generation operating regime reduces the total 
cost of electric power production from the Papp reaction to the absolute 
minimum.
Coupled with Papp electric generators, zero heat producing electric LED 
lighting will not add to the urban heat load. 
  
Cheers: Axil


On Wed, Nov 21, 2012 at 2:23 PM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com wrote:

Gibbs published a new article:


http://www.forbes.com/sites/markgibbs/2012/11/20/cold-fusion-and-unintended-consequences/


For once I have no objection! He says nothing unreasonable.


I posted the following response:





Gibbs is correct. The problems he describes may occur with cold fusion. These 
problems -- and others -- have been discussed by several people since the 
discovery of cold fusion, especially: Martin Fleischmann, Stanley Pons, Arthur 
C. Clarke, David Nagel, Michael McKubre, Michael Melich, Eugene Mallove, 
Anthony Lovins, Jeremy Rifkin, Adm. Sir Anthony Griffin and me. I described 
some of their conclusions in chapters 11, 12 and 19 of my book, “Cold Fusion 
and the Future.” The book is here:


http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/RothwellJcoldfusiona.pdf


Some of these problems are not likely to be as serious as Gibbs fears. The 
total nuclear waste from cold fusion cells is likely to be very small. It 
should be easily contained because the cells will be sealed units, like 
batteries. As long as the recycling plants are designed and run correctly, this 
should not be a problem. Clarke discussed the heat islands problem. He, I and 
others concluded that even with low Carnot efficiency, savings from 
co-generation space heating will likely lower overall

Re: [VO]: More support for variable radioactive decay rates...

The physical constant μ0, commonly called the vacuum permeability,
permeability of free space, or magnetic constant is an ideal, (baseline)
physical constant, which is the value of magnetic permeability in a
classical vacuum.

Ken Shoulders has taken out a patent for the remediation of nuclear waste
through electrical discharge.

Ken believes that the vacuum permeability can be changed in direct
proportion to charge separation in proximity of the waste.
Solar flare activity could increase charge separationon earth  thereby
causing a changing vacuum permeability to accelerated nuclear isotope decay
rates.


Cheers:  Axil

On Wed, Nov 21, 2012 at 6:29 PM, Andy Findlay andy_find...@orange.netwrote:

  From New Scientist (needs free registration):

 *Half-life strife: Seasons change in the atom's 
 hearthttp://www.newscientist.com/article/mg21628912.300-halflife-strife-seasons-change-in-the-atoms-heart.html?
 *
 *Nothing is supposed to speed up or slow down radioactive decay. So how
 come the sun seems to be messing with some of our elements?
 *
 The evidence keeps accumulating...

 Andy Findlay*



 *

Re: [Vo]:Gibbs: Cold fusion and unintended consequences

2012-11-21 Thread Eric Walker

On Wed, Nov 21, 2012 at 9:45 PM, David Roberson dlrober...@aol.com wrote:

 I know I sounds like the typical cold fusion denier, but cold fusion has
 been replicated and can be demonstrated currently.  Why not require the
 same level of proof for the Papp devices?


Nothing solid, but there's an interesting video of a Papp replication
linked to in a post from Puppy Dog that seems to be doing real work:

http://www.mail-archive.com/vortex-l@eskimo.com/msg71223.html

Eric

Re: [Vo]:Gibbs: Cold fusion and unintended consequences

We are working to recovery this technology in an open source effort
involving multiple experimenters. Cheers:Axil

On Thu, Nov 22, 2012 at 12:45 AM, David Roberson dlrober...@aol.com wrote:

Show me a currently available and operating device that can be
independently proven and I will be convinced. The burden is upon those
that make the extraordinary claims. If it was done once, then it should be
possible to do it again.

I know I sounds like the typical cold fusion denier, but cold fusion has
been replicated and can be demonstrated currently. Why not require the
same level of proof for the Papp devices?

Dave

-Original Message-
From: Axil Axil janap...@gmail.com
To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com
Sent: Thu, Nov 22, 2012 12:11 am
Subject: Re: [Vo]:Gibbs: Cold fusion and unintended consequences

To my best knowledge, the Papp engine is the only over unity invention
to have ever received an American patent.
The self-powered Papp engine was tested by independent and objective
parties and certified under oath to be functional and witnessed to produce
over 100 horsepower.
The Papp reaction was tested under the supervision of the navy and
observed by defense contractors to split open and shatter a 6 inch diameter
3/8 inches thick steel gun barrel when its projectile jammed in that
barrel.
An isolated and completely self-powered Papp engine produced sufficient
power to explode with such force to kill and injure multiple observers.
IMHO, the Papp reaction has proven to be more viable than any other over
unity devices with a COP of infinity.
http://www.infinite-energy.com/iemagazine/issue51/papp.html

On Wed, Nov 21, 2012 at 11:18 PM, David Roberson dlrober...@aol.comwrote:

Axil, it has not been proven that the Papp engine is capable of
performing as advertised. I have serious doubts from what has been
demonstrated to date and it is wise to continue to pursue technology that
we know exists.

I would like very much to believe that the Papp concept is valid. So
far I am not convinced.

Dave

-Original Message-
From: Axil Axil janap...@gmail.com
To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com
Sent: Wed, Nov 21, 2012 4:14 pm
Subject: Re: [Vo]:Gibbs: Cold fusion and unintended consequences

Cheers: Axil

On Wed, Nov 21, 2012 at 2:23 PM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.comwrote:

Gibbs published a new article:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/markgibbs/2012/11/20/cold-fusion-and-unintended-consequences/

For once I have no objection! He says nothing unreasonable.

I posted the following response:

Gibbs is correct. The problems he describes may occur with cold
fusion. These problems -- and others -- have been discussed by several
people since the discovery of cold fusion, especially: Martin Fleischmann,
Stanley Pons, Arthur C. Clarke, David Nagel, Michael McKubre, Michael
Melich, Eugene Mallove, Anthony Lovins, Jeremy Rifkin, Adm. Sir Anthony
Griffin and me. I described some of their conclusions in chapters 11, 12
and 19 of my book, “Cold Fusion and the Future.” The book is here:

http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/RothwellJcoldfusiona.pdf

Re: [Vo]:Gibbs: Cold fusion and unintended consequences

That was an interesting video, but no attempt was made to measure output energy 
compared to input energy as far as I could tell.  That is the kind of 
information that we need if we are to accept that it works.  


It is my suspicion that this type of machine behaves more like an electric 
motor than a heat engine and of course electric motors put out less mechanical 
energy than they require electric energy for drive.  Also, Electric motors run 
moderately warm due to high efficiency which is similar to the claims of Papp.


I was considering a test that would demonstrate excess output energy of a 
single cylinder experiment if it appears.  Place a calibrated weight such as 10 
kilograms on the piston rod and fire the engine.  Carefully measure the heigth 
that the weight reaches before it begins to fall back and then calculate the 
net change in potential energy.  Charge up the capacitors to a know energy 
level and derive the small energy required to fire the spark gap from this 
charge.  Power should be disconnected from the capacitor bank prior to the 
drive pulse.  It should be easy to calculate the energy stored within the 
capacitor bank both before and after the weight has been shot into the air.  
Determine how much electrical energy was drawn from the capacitor bank and 
compare it to the potential energy acquired by the weight.



Dave



-Original Message-
From: Eric Walker eric.wal...@gmail.com
To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com
Sent: Thu, Nov 22, 2012 12:58 am
Subject: Re: [Vo]:Gibbs: Cold fusion and unintended consequences


On Wed, Nov 21, 2012 at 9:45 PM, David Roberson dlrober...@aol.com wrote:



I know I sounds like the typical cold fusion denier, but cold fusion has been 
replicated and can be demonstrated currently.  Why not require the same level 
of proof for the Papp devices?




Nothing solid, but there's an interesting video of a Papp replication linked to 
in a post from Puppy Dog that seems to be doing real work:


http://www.mail-archive.com/vortex-l@eskimo.com/msg71223.html


Eric

Re: [Vo]:Gibbs: Cold fusion and unintended consequences