Re: [Vo]:Another Defkalion statement on PESN
What do you think the catalyst is at this time? From: Axil Axil janap...@gmail.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Thursday, August 11, 2011 1:46 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Another Defkalion statement on PESN Ever since one of our number “noone noone” posted this http://www.mail-archive.com/vortex-l@eskimo.com/msg49026.html I have been concerned that I have let Rossi’s secret out of the bag to his detriment and that secret has been used by Defkalion Green Technologies to reverse engineer Rossi’s reactor core. Rossi just can’t keep his mouth shut and his loose lips has had many opportunities to let hints about his technology out during working conversations with highly knowledgeable and competent Defkalion engineering personnel to a point where reverse engineering his system is possible. I know his many disclosures have comforted me greatly in my curiosity about the most intimate inner workings of his system Rossi’s intellectual property rights are also weak at best and there is a strong possibility that someone else might well claim payment from Defkalion for intellectual property associated with Rossi’s system. For a company in Defkalions position, it is good due diligence business practice to attempt to reverse engineer Rossi’s system in lieu of paying a large royalty for his secret. Defkalion may have gotten their own homegrown version of Rossi’s core working well enough to encourage them into a delaying strategy to string out the payment of Rossi’s royalty disbursement as long as progress in their reverse engineering efforts showed promise. This payment delay reached a point where eventually Rossi through in the towel in frustration over doing business with Defkalion. With the passage of time and concerted effort to understand Rossi’s technology, Defkalion may come up with a competitive alternative to Rossi’s system; only time will tell. Best regards, Axil On Wed, Aug 10, 2011 at 2:05 PM, Alan J Fletcher a...@well.com wrote: http://pesn.com/2011/08/10/9501891_Defkalion_Responds_in_Support_of_Rossi/ Sorry if it's already here ... I looked for it. Hard to well if it's actually conflicting with what Rossi as said (technically). They say it's built AROUND the core (not that they have one), AND that they have (are?) set up a production line to make the cores if and when Rossi reveals the secret ingredient.
Re: [Vo]:Another Defkalion statement on PESN
At 10:13 PM 8/10/2011, Daniel Rocha wrote: Alright, so Defkalion has a Kernel for a limited time, while the catalyzer lasts. And it seems to me that catalyzer is something they apply to nickel powder. Anyway, since they once they tested a thousand devices simultaneously and Defkalion is still a young company, it is likely they still have a lot leftover for research, at least of small devices and for governmental tests. If they have catalyzer and Rossi breaks the contract, they may, as self-help (to avoid increased loss), reverse engineer it. Rossi may try to stop them, but I would not predict that he will prevail. It does depend on the exact nature of the contract.
[Vo]:Another Defkalion statement on PESN
http://pesn.com/2011/08/10/9501891_Defkalion_Responds_in_Support_of_Rossi/ Sorry if it's already here ... I looked for it. Hard to well if it's actually conflicting with what Rossi as said (technically). They say it's built AROUND the core (not that they have one), AND that they have (are?) set up a production line to make the cores if and when Rossi reveals the secret ingredient.
Re: [Vo]:Another Defkalion statement on PESN
From the link: Statement II *We received the following from Symeon Tsalikoglou of Defkalion Green Technologies on August 10, 2011 4:13 AM MST.* Dear Sterling Allan, In the link below you include a post from passi22 blog regarding an anonymous email from inside Defkalion. http://pesn.com/2011/08/09/9501890_Rossi_Gives_Reason_for_Split_from_Defkalion/ For your information, we are warning passi22 to remove this text, to provide us with full information of the source, and will be acting legally against the source as this is content is definitely not from Defkalion. Defkalion makes only public announcements - however minimal - and under full authority from its BoD. The suggested email is a faslity. Someone is trying to implicate us. We advise that this link is removed also from your site. Defkalion Green Technologies I noticed yesterday at night that Rossi deleted his inflammatory message.
Re: [Vo]:Another Defkalion statement on PESN
At 11:05 AM 8/10/2011, Alan J Fletcher wrote: http://pesn.com/2011/08/10/9501891_Defkalion_Responds_in_Support_of_Rossi/ Andrea Rossi August 10th, 2011 at 4:02 AM Dear Luke Mortensen: No one in the world holds any E-Cat, but us, so far. Warm Regards, A.R. Hard to well if it's actually conflicting with what Rossi as said (technically). How many angels CAN dance on the head of a pin? Defkalion could have submitted a system with a dummy core for Greek qualification (hydrogen system etc), but that seems a bit pointless. Rossi could have hand-carried a core to Defkalion, run tests, and then taken it way with him.
Re: [Vo]:Another Defkalion statement on PESN
To be honest would be better to say: *No one in the world holds any (working) E-Cat, even us, so far.* 2011/8/10 Alan J Fletcher a...@well.com At 11:05 AM 8/10/2011, Alan J Fletcher wrote: http://pesn.com/2011/08/10/9501891_Defkalion_Responds_in_Support_of_Rossi/ Andrea Rossi August 10th, 2011 at 4:02 AMhttp://www.journal-of-nuclear-physics.com/?p=501cpage=11#comment-60743 Dear Luke Mortensen: No one in the world holds any E-Cat, but us, so far. Warm Regards, A.R. Hard to well if it's actually conflicting with what Rossi as said (technically). How many angels CAN dance on the head of a pin? Defkalion could have submitted a system with a dummy core for Greek qualification (hydrogen system etc), but that seems a bit pointless. Rossi could have hand-carried a core to Defkalion, run tests, and then taken it way with him.
Re: [Vo]:Another Defkalion statement on PESN
Yep, Susan Gipp, you have a grip on the reality here... Defkalion now stage-managing hour by hour -- perhaps their technicians are running simulations on their magic catalyzt deprived devices to verify the same kind of null results that actually ensued from the publicized Rossi demos... Within mutual service, Rich Murray rmfor...@gmail.com 505-819-7388 On Wed, Aug 10, 2011 at 11:37 AM, Susan Gipp susan.g...@gmail.com wrote: To be honest would be better to say: No one in the world holds any (working) E-Cat, even us, so far.
Re: [Vo]:Another Defkalion statement on PESN
Alan J Fletcher wrote: Defkalion could have submitted a system with a dummy core for Greek qualification (hydrogen system etc), but that seems a bit pointless. Rossi could have hand-carried a core to Defkalion, run tests, and then taken it way with him. No regulator or government agency in the EU, the U.S. or Japan would allow that. It is unthinkable. These organizations have many faults but they are thorough. They do things rigorously, by the book. Running a few tests with Rossi standing by is simply out of the question. In their website discussion group, Defkalion repeatedly claimed that various Greek Ministries were testing their devices. It that is true, it contradicts Rossi's assertions. There is no way the two sides can be reconciled; one or the other is lying. Defkalion's major website claims are gathered here: http://pesn.com/2011/08/07/9501887_An_E-Cat_Full_of_Lies_-_Rossi_or_Defkalion/ For what it is worth, I think Rossi was upset and he was saying all kinds of things he did not mean. I would call it an angry outburst. He has already backtracked and said the dispute is about money only, not technology. My guess is that is his way of retracting and apologizing. I hope the parties can reach a new agreement and people will forget about this incident in a few weeks. In the past, many famous innovators such as Steve Jobs and Bill Gates also acted abominably, but that was before the Internet, so they did not have the opportunity to plaster their bad behavior all over the world. Plus they had more sense than to do this. There were notable exceptions such as the time Bill Gates got drunk and talked to reporters about how IBM was on the verge of extinction. The modern Internet goldfish bowl lets us see people making fools of themselves in real time, rather than reading about it in history books years later. In this document: http://pesn.com/2011/08/10/9501891_Defkalion_Responds_in_Support_of_Rossi/ I agree with the last note, by Hank Mills. Defkalion is being evasive and not answering the two key questions. Perhaps it would put it in a better light to say they are being diplomatic, and trying not to rile Rossi. They call this affair micro-politics which I take as an interesting new way of saying let's hope this stuff blows over and Rossi forgets about it. I suppose micro-politics means a tempest in a teapot. Let us hope that's what it is. I know nothing about the nature of the dispute. Frankly I don't want to know. It is none of my business. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Another Defkalion statement on PESN
Jed, there is a way to reconcile everything. Defkalion designed the Hyperion differently from Rossi's, the core exactly like Rossi's but they don't have the recipe for the catalyzer. So, all they have are units that can still work for a few months with the last loading of the catalyzer. They can still make designs, test tem continuously, even with the government, but for just a limited time. So, they are trying to control the situation, because, although it is bad, for the meanwhile, it is manageable. After all, the won't sell before early next year.
Re: [Vo]:Another Defkalion statement on PESN
At 01:46 PM 8/10/2011, Jed Rothwell wrote: Alan J Fletcher wrote: Rossi could have hand-carried a core to Defkalion, run tests, and then taken it way with him. No regulator or government agency in the EU, the U.S. or Japan would allow that. It is unthinkable. These organizations have many faults but they are thorough. They do things rigorously, by the book. Running a few tests with Rossi standing by is simply out of the question. I meant that Rossi could have taken a core to Defkalion for internal tests in a Hyperion rig -- NOT the government tests -- but not left it with them. This would allow the following two statements to be true: R: Nobody has an eCat D: We measured 6-20x energy gain
Re: [Vo]:Another Defkalion statement on PESN
Or that both Rossi and Defkalion have proprietary cores but only Rossi has the catalyzer. 2011/8/10 Alan J Fletcher a...@well.com At 01:46 PM 8/10/2011, Jed Rothwell wrote: Alan J Fletcher wrote: Rossi could have hand-carried a core to Defkalion, run tests, and then taken it way with him. No regulator or government agency in the EU, the U.S. or Japan would allow that. It is unthinkable. These organizations have many faults but they are thorough. They do things rigorously, by the book. Running a few tests with Rossi standing by is simply out of the question. I meant that Rossi could have taken a core to Defkalion for internal tests in a Hyperion rig -- NOT the government tests -- but not left it with them. This would allow the following two statements to be true: R: Nobody has an eCat D: We measured 6-20x energy gain
Re: [Vo]:Another Defkalion statement on PESN
Alan J Fletcher wrote: I meant that Rossi could have taken a core to Defkalion for internal tests in a Hyperion rig -- NOT the government tests -- but not left it with them. This would allow the following two statements to be true: R: Nobody has an eCat D: We measured 6-20x energy gain That simply cannot be reconciled with Defkalion's statements. They clearly, repeatedly said they are getting excess heat, and they delivered systems to the Greek government. Therefore they must have eCats, and Rossi either delivered a bunch of cores to them permanently, or they manufactured the cores themselves. Assuming they are telling the truth, there is no chance that Rossi brought some cores over, stood by, and then brought them back. Defkalion's response in PESN says clearly that they have working reactors: Defkalion Green Technologies has designed, built and tested the materials and components for the final Hyperion products that are based on the same kernels (reactors) as of Andrea Rossi's e-cats. Their official testing, certification and approval by the Greek Authorities is still in progress. http://pesn.com/2011/08/10/9501891_Defkalion_Responds_in_Support_of_Rossi/ Rossi got excited and wrote some things he did not mean. He more or less retracted, saying this is a dispute over money, not technical claims. Let us hope it is a tempest in a teapot, and the two parties reconcile their differences soon. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Another Defkalion statement on PESN
Hi, On 10-8-2011 23:37, Jed Rothwell wrote: Alan J Fletcher wrote: I meant that Rossi could have taken a core to Defkalion for internal tests in a Hyperion rig -- NOT the government tests -- but not left it with them. This would allow the following two statements to be true: R: Nobody has an eCat D: We measured 6-20x energy gain That simply cannot be reconciled with Defkalion's statements. They clearly, repeatedly said they are getting excess heat, and they delivered systems to the Greek government. Therefore they must have eCats, and Rossi either delivered a bunch of cores to them permanently, or they manufactured the cores themselves. Assuming they are telling the truth, there is no chance that Rossi brought some cores over, stood by, and then brought them back. Defkalion's response in PESN says clearly that they have working reactors: Defkalion Green Technologies has designed, built and tested the materials and components for the final Hyperion products that are based on the same kernels (reactors) as of Andrea Rossi's e-cats. Their official testing, certification and approval by the Greek Authorities is still in progress. No, I think the wrong questions are put forward. Rossi says: Nobody has eCat. As an engineer myself this can be very well true, as an eCat is in my perception the full device with all inlet/outlet pipes made by Rossi with possibly a very small replaceable closed core/container/cartridge/vessel/module with the catalyzer inside it, which cannot be opened. This would allow for easy refill at site with a new module, without the need to take the full device out of service for to long and bring it to the factory. I wouldn't be surprised if this was one of Defkalions requirements to Rossi. This maybe one of the main reasons we don't know how the full eCat reactor looks like inside. Remember version 4 at Danielle's Blog of May 15th, 2011? But has anyone asked him if Defkalion has the inner module part with the catalyzer in it? If they have several moduleS, then the only thing they need to do is design+engineer+manufacture+integrate+test their own hyperionS with the moduleS provided by Rossi. In that case both are telling the full truth. Kind regards, MoB
Re: [Vo]:Another Defkalion statement on PESN
Daniel Rocha danieldi...@gmail.com wrote: Or that both Rossi and Defkalion have proprietary cores but only Rossi has the catalyzer. In this discussion core and catalyzer mean the same thing. They mean the cell at the heart of the reactor which is filled with nickel powder, hydrogen, and some other mystery ingredients. This is also called a kernel as in Defkalion's statement at PESN: Defkalion Green Technologies has designed, built and tested the materials and components for the final Hyperion products that are based on the same kernels (reactors) as of Andrea Rossi's e-cats. Assuming Defkalion's claims are true, they must have some of these cells. Whether they got them from Rossi or made them in Greece I cannot say, but they must have them, on a permanent basis. Rossi cannot be bringing them to Greece, standing by, and then taking them home. There is no way you could do RD on that basis. The Min. of Energy would not consent to test them with Rossi standing by waiting to take the cell home every day. The Ministry would not consent to testing a dummy cell that produces no heat. The statement clearly says these are the final Hyperion products, meaning the market-ready models that will be sold. (I suppose there might be minor variations after approval. Commercial products such as space-heaters and automobiles are often tweaked and given model upgrades. They seldom match the user manual exactly. I do not think they have to be re-licensed from scratch every time. When Ford changes the cup-holders or headlights on a 2012 model car, I doubt they have to do crash-tests all over again.) Also, they must have tested these cells, so Rossi's initial assertion that there have been no tests other than his own cannot be true. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Another Defkalion statement on PESN
It doesn't make much sense to me to equalize core and catalyzer. The core is just what Rossi attempted to explain in his patent application. Catalyzer, as I understand, is an additive to the fuel or part of the fuel. And, as I understand, they could have enough fuel catalyzer to sustain the experimental operation of a few hundreds of Hyperions for a few months.
Re: [Vo]:Another Defkalion statement on PESN
Daniel Rocha danieldi...@gmail.com wrote: It doesn't make much sense to me to equalize core and catalyzer. I mean in the context of this discussion we have been treating the two to mean the same thing. Defkalkion calls core+catalyzer a kernel. The core is just what Rossi attempted to explain in his patent application. Catalyzer, as I understand, is an additive to the fuel or part of the fuel. If you are going to make that distinction I think catalyzer would be the nickel powder. And, as I understand, they could have enough fuel catalyzer to sustain the experimental operation of a few hundreds of Hyperions for a few months. I do not know how much fuel catalyzer they have. But they say that one batch lasts for 6 months. That is the claim for the commercial product. I believe they said the stuff actually lasts longer than that, but regular maintenance every 6 months is recommended. My point is, Defkalion says they have the final, commercial version of the cell and catalyzer, and that is what they have submitted for government testing. They have not submitted a weaker version, or catalyzer that does not last as long as Rossi's. They said final and they said it is the same kernel (reactor) as Rossi's eCats. By the way, I think the word catalyzer in this context is a misnomer. I do not think it catalyzes in the normal chemical sense of the term. There are so-called nuclear catalysts but they enhance reactions, they do not trigger them. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Another Defkalion statement on PESN
Alright, so Defkalion has a Kernel for a limited time, while the catalyzer lasts. And it seems to me that catalyzer is something they apply to nickel powder. Anyway, since they once they tested a thousand devices simultaneously and Defkalion is still a young company, it is likely they still have a lot leftover for research, at least of small devices and for governmental tests.
Re: [Vo]:Another Defkalion statement on PESN
Daniel Rocha danieldi...@gmail.com wrote: Alright, so Defkalion has a Kernel for a limited time, while the catalyzer lasts. And it seems to me that catalyzer is something they apply to nickel powder. Anyway, since they once they tested a thousand devices simultaneously and Defkalion is still a young company, it is likely they still have a lot leftover for research, at least of small devices and for governmental tests. It seems they make the catalyzer themselves, as much as they want. I don't know that for sure, but they say: Defkalion Green Technologies has designed, built and tested the materials and components for the final Hyperion products . . . They don't add: everything but the catalyzer powder, that is. They say the materials and components. I assume that includes the powder. Where ever the powder comes from, I suppose they have an unlimited supply. They are setting up a factory to produce 300,000 reactors a year. To do that, they have to secure a source of carefully tested, reliable powder. Whether they make it themselves or Rossi supplies it, they need a lot, and they need it soon. Around 30,000 kg per year. Right? - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Another Defkalion statement on PESN
Not really. They probably have enough for testing. A few kilograms is enough for a few hundreds of continuous tests for months. This is why Defkalion is really not that desperate.
Re: [Vo]:Another Defkalion statement on PESN
Ever since one of our number “noone noone” posted this http://www.mail-archive.com/vortex-l@eskimo.com/msg49026.html I have been concerned that I have let Rossi’s secret out of the bag to his detriment and that secret has been used by Defkalion Green Technologies to reverse engineer Rossi’s reactor core. Rossi just can’t keep his mouth shut and his loose lips has had many opportunities to let hints about his technology out during working conversations with highly knowledgeable and competent Defkalion engineering personnel to a point where reverse engineering his system is possible. I know his many disclosures have comforted me greatly in my curiosity about the most intimate inner workings of his system Rossi’s intellectual property rights are also weak at best and there is a strong possibility that someone else might well claim payment from Defkalion for intellectual property associated with Rossi’s system. For a company in Defkalions position, it is good due diligence business practice to attempt to reverse engineer Rossi’s system in lieu of paying a large royalty for his secret. Defkalion may have gotten their own homegrown version of Rossi’s core working well enough to encourage them into a delaying strategy to string out the payment of Rossi’s royalty disbursement as long as progress in their reverse engineering efforts showed promise. This payment delay reached a point where eventually Rossi through in the towel in frustration over doing business with Defkalion. With the passage of time and concerted effort to understand Rossi’s technology, Defkalion may come up with a competitive alternative to Rossi’s system; only time will tell. Best regards, Axil On Wed, Aug 10, 2011 at 2:05 PM, Alan J Fletcher a...@well.com wrote: http://pesn.com/2011/08/10/9501891_Defkalion_Responds_in_Support_of_Rossi/ Sorry if it's already here ... I looked for it. Hard to well if it's actually conflicting with what Rossi as said (technically). They say it's built AROUND the core (not that they have one), AND that they have (are?) set up a production line to make the cores if and when Rossi reveals the secret ingredient.
