Re: [wdvltalk] SCR: lf.mechavox.com

2004-12-08 Thread Ross Clutterbuck
Good Job Stephen!
Re your image replacement for the title - exactly which flavour are you 
using? I don't think I've seen one which uses an empty span. My personal 
preference is styling the h1 with the background image and relevant sizes 
and then nesting a span inside that h1. That nested span is then 
styled with display:none to hide it. The only delay I then experience is the 
time it takes to download the image (which is always a factor anyway so 
resolving that is a different issue).

The only downside to this approach is a browser configured with CSS on and 
Images off as the h1 box will be rendered but nothing will show up in it.

I thought this might have something to do with what BlueRobot calls the 
Flash of Unstyled Content but the rest of the CSS loads in fine - could be 
worth a double-check though: http://www.bluerobot.com/web/css/fouc.asp

Apart from that it's looking good and onwards with XHTML+CSS!!! I sincerely 
hope there are some of those more CSS-loathing table-based designers out 
there who's seen this page...THIS is what we are talking about, and the code 
is so much cleaner than the nested junk that table-based design will churn 
out.

MOU
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RE: [wdvltalk] SCR: lf.mechavox.com

2004-12-08 Thread William Stewart
I agree with you, Ross.  CSS is so much cleaner and easier.  I made the
jump from tables to CSS (with the help of TopStyle Pro) and I haven't
looked back.

Kudos to Stephen for doing it right.

Will

Professional Graphics Artist
Certified Web Designer (BCIP)

Stewart and Company
--
www.stewartandcompany.net
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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W: 304.550.2687

Rt. 1 Box 364
Buffalo, WV
25033


-Original Message-
From: Ross Clutterbuck [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 

Apart from that it's looking good and onwards with XHTML+CSS!!! I
sincerely 
hope there are some of those more CSS-loathing table-based designers out

there who's seen this page...THIS is what we are talking about, and the
code 
is so much cleaner than the nested junk that table-based design will
churn 
out.


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RE: [wdvltalk] SCR: lf.mechavox.com

2004-12-08 Thread Cheryl D Wise
Using display: none defeats the purpose if accessibility is your concern.
That's the Fahrner technique see: http://www.alistapart.com/articles/fir/
They see the same thing you report when css is on and images off. You need
to position it off page with a negative (or really high) margin. Might check
some of the other image replacement techniques listed in
http://www.accessify.com/archives/2003_08_03_news-archives.asp#1060161072462
97283



Cheryl D. Wise
Certified Professional Web Developer
Microsoft FrontPage MVP
http://wiserways.com 


-Original Message-
From: Ross Clutterbuck 

Good Job Stephen!

Re your image replacement for the title - exactly which flavour are you
using? I don't think I've seen one which uses an empty span. My personal
preference is styling the h1 with the background image and relevant sizes
and then nesting a span inside that h1. That nested span is then
styled with display:none to hide it. The only delay I then experience is the
time it takes to download the image (which is always a factor anyway so
resolving that is a different issue).

The only downside to this approach is a browser configured with CSS on and
Images off as the h1 box will be rendered but nothing will show up in it.

I thought this might have something to do with what BlueRobot calls the
Flash of Unstyled Content but the rest of the CSS loads in fine - could be
worth a double-check though: http://www.bluerobot.com/web/css/fouc.asp

Apart from that it's looking good and onwards with XHTML+CSS!!! I sincerely
hope there are some of those more CSS-loathing table-based designers out
there who's seen this page...THIS is what we are talking about, and the code
is so much cleaner than the nested junk that table-based design will churn
out.


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Re: [wdvltalk] SCR: lf.mechavox.com

2004-12-08 Thread Ross Clutterbuck
Cheryl
I'm not a big fan of image replacement anyway but since we can do so much 
with web design/development these days (Microsoft browsers permitting of 
course) but also have so many different aspects to consider 9 times in 10 I 
move more towards keeping things accessible and don't bother with any image 
replacement at all (common page graphics and titles are not usually part of 
my heading structure so alt text works fine for them - the meat of my copy 
is what I want visitors and search engines to see).

I did however forget about the off-screen positioning of text approach which 
does everything IR needs to do yet still is available by screen 
readers/accessibility tools (of course I will never understand why screen 
readers for web browsers read the rendered version for screen instead of the 
markup itself - screen is for display on screen surely?) so thanks for 
reminding me.

An upcoming project looks though like I might be needing an awful lot of IR 
so cheers for the link too.

MOU 

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Re: [wdvltalk] SCR: lf.mechavox.com

2004-12-08 Thread Stephen Caudill
Ross Clutterbuck wrote:
Good Job Stephen!
Thanks Ross!  Means a lot coming from the Master of the Universe and all :)
Re your image replacement for the title - exactly which flavour are 
you using? I don't think I've seen one which uses an empty span. My 
personal preference is styling the h1 with the background image and 
relevant sizes and then nesting a span inside that h1. That nested 
span is then styled with display:none to hide it. The only delay I 
then experience is the time it takes to download the image (which is 
always a factor anyway so resolving that is a different issue).
Apparently display:none doesn't get read by the bulk of aural browsers 
on the market now, so this was a method someone came up with to get 
around that issue and keep things accessible.  The basis of the idea is 
to leave the text in the header (set to position:relative and set to the 
height and width of the image), add the extra span(set to display:block, 
the height and width of the image and position:absolute; left:0; top:0;) 
and give this empty span the background-image...  The method is detailed at:

 http://wellstyled.com/css-replace-text-by-image.html
The only downside to this approach is a browser configured with CSS on 
and Images off as the h1 box will be rendered but nothing will show up 
in it.
Yeah, this technique gets around that.
I thought this might have something to do with what BlueRobot calls the 
Flash of Unstyled Content but the rest of the CSS loads in fine - 
could be worth a double-check though: 
http://www.bluerobot.com/web/css/fouc.asp
It's close, but that's not it...  Because the text isn't being hidden in 
any way, you simply see it until the image loads.  Definite drawback to 
this technique.  I don't consider it too much of a hit to take when you 
think about the fact that it gets around the CSS on / Images off and 
screen reader difficulties though.  Always a trade-off, eh? :D

Apart from that it's looking good and onwards with XHTML+CSS!!! I 
sincerely hope there are some of those more CSS-loathing table-based 
designers out there who's seen this page...THIS is what we are talking 
about, and the code is so much cleaner than the nested junk that 
table-based design will churn out.
w00t! w00t!
Thanks again MOU :)
- Stephen
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RE: [wdvltalk] SCR: lf.mechavox.com

2004-12-08 Thread Cheryl D Wise
FWIW, I don't use the image replacement techniques either since plain text
alt tags especially when combined with structural mark-up so the alt gets
the proper heading mark-up without images is best in most circumstances. 

Nice to have options though if needed due to special circumstances.

As far as why screen readers read the displayed text I think it is because
most of them are built to use the OS tools to the maximum extent possible to
reduce the need for writing expensive code. That's why most screen readers
are available only for Windows and use IE as the base. 

FWIW, there is a screen reader emulator for Firefox under development. See:
http://www.standards-schmandards.com/index.php?2004/11/22/8-fangs-release-05

Sounds like it might come in useful for that upcoming project.

Cheryl D. Wise
Certified Professional Web Developer
Microsoft FrontPage MVP
http://wiserways.com 


-Original Message-
From: Ross Clutterbuck 

I'm not a big fan of image replacement anyway but since we can do so much
with web design/development these days (Microsoft browsers permitting of
course) but also have so many different aspects to consider 9 times in 10 I
move more towards keeping things accessible and don't bother with any image
replacement at all (common page graphics and titles are not usually part of
my heading structure so alt text works fine for them - the meat of my copy
is what I want visitors and search engines to see).

I did however forget about the off-screen positioning of text approach which
does everything IR needs to do yet still is available by screen
readers/accessibility tools (of course I will never understand why screen
readers for web browsers read the rendered version for screen instead of the
markup itself - screen is for display on screen surely?) so thanks for
reminding me.

An upcoming project looks though like I might be needing an awful lot of IR
so cheers for the link too.

MOU 


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RE: [wdvltalk] SCR: lf.mechavox.com

2004-12-08 Thread Trusz, Andrew
 

-Original Message-
From: Stephen Caudill  
Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2004 12:08 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [wdvltalk] SCR: lf.mechavox.com

Was wondering if I could get a few folks to mosey by:

http://lf.mechavox.com/

And let me know if they encounter any display quirks.  This is a template,
one page only and it's due for delivery today, so feedback is much
appreciated.  I'm especially interested to hear from the mac users on the
list.

When responding, please include:

- Operating System
- Browser
- screen resolution
- connection speed
- details of any issue spotted

Thanks a heap!

- Stephen



Looks good and all, validates as transitional, but line 33 is:

div id=cartWrapper align=center

align=center? 


drew

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Re: [wdvltalk] SCR: lf.mechavox.com

2004-12-08 Thread Stephen Caudill
Trusz, Andrew wrote:
Looks good and all, validates as transitional, but line 33 is:
div id=cartWrapper align=center
align=center? 
Oh lord.  No telling, really.  I guess old habits die hard.  I've fixed 
that

Say Drew, you're on *nix right?  Is that what you tested on?  Using 
Konqueror? Something else?  Display's okay?

/me hopes so.
Thanks,
Stephen
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RE: [wdvltalk] SCR: lf.mechavox.com

2004-12-08 Thread Trusz, Andrew
 

-Original Message-
From: Stephen Caudill 
Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 2004 1:22 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [wdvltalk] SCR: lf.mechavox.com

Trusz, Andrew wrote:
 
 Looks good and all, validates as transitional, but line 33 is:
 
 div id=cartWrapper align=center
 
 align=center? 

Oh lord.  No telling, really.  I guess old habits die hard.  I've fixed
that

Say Drew, you're on *nix right?  Is that what you tested on?  Using
Konqueror? Something else?  Display's okay?

/me hopes so.

Thanks,
Stephen

=

I am on mandrake at home, at work it's an agency custom image of xp. That
may sound innocent but it should make you shudder to the roots of your soul.

If you can wait about 2 hours I'll let you know how it looks on Konqueror.

drew

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Re: [wdvltalk] SCR: lf.mechavox.com

2004-12-08 Thread Stephen Caudill
Trusz, Andrew wrote:
I am on mandrake at home, at work it's an agency custom image of xp. That
may sound innocent but it should make you shudder to the roots of your soul.
If you can wait about 2 hours I'll let you know how it looks on Konqueror.
Sure! It's not really a biggie, but I am interested.  The likelihood is 
that no big fixes will be done at this point even if there are problems, 
but I'd still like to know about them...  And adjust my coding practices 
accordingly for the future.

LOL @ agency custom image of xp... My last work place had custom 
versions of IE 5.5 that were installed as part of the image.  Stupid 
customized animated logo and all.  I can only imagine what some 
enterprising young men and women with way too much time invested in VBA 
could do to a whole OS :P

Thanks Again,
Stephen
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RE: [wdvltalk] SCR: lf.mechavox.com

2004-12-08 Thread Cheryl D Wise
Should look about the same as the report I gave you on Safari. It is based
on Konqueror. 



Cheryl D. Wise
Certified Professional Web Developer
Microsoft FrontPage MVP
http://wiserways.com 


-Original Message-
From: Stephen Caudill 

Trusz, Andrew wrote:
 
 Looks good and all, validates as transitional, but line 33 is:
 
 div id=cartWrapper align=center
 
 align=center? 

Oh lord.  No telling, really.  I guess old habits die hard.  I've fixed
that

Say Drew, you're on *nix right?  Is that what you tested on?  Using
Konqueror? Something else?  Display's okay?

/me hopes so.


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RE: [wdvltalk] SCR: lf.mechavox.com

2004-12-08 Thread Trusz, Andrew
 

-Original Message-
From: Stephen Caudill 
Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 2004 1:35 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [wdvltalk] SCR: lf.mechavox.com

Trusz, Andrew wrote:
LOL @ agency custom image of xp... My last work place had custom versions
of IE 5.5 that were installed as part of the image.  Stupid customized
animated logo and all. 

 I can only imagine what some enterprising young men and women with way
too much time invested in VBA could do to a whole OS :P 



No you can't imagine that! Nobody is that depraved. This is a sustained,
decades long, group effort rooted in ever compounding bad decisions. 

Think custom dlls, active-x required, no validation, and a bizarre locked
down version of IE6 (add the patch, remove the patch, reinstall the patch,
patch the patch). If it were internet and not intranet we'd be covered in
alligators.

Oh since I haven't figured out (or even found) the new web based interface
for the list, I'll have to shoot the reply to the gmail box if that's ok?
I'm not subscribed from home.

drew

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RE: [wdvltalk] SCR: lf.mechavox.com

2004-12-08 Thread Linda Cole
Drew:
Oh since I haven't figured out (or even found) the new web based interface
for the list, I'll have to shoot the reply to the gmail box if that's ok?
http://intm-dl.sparklist.com/read/?forum=wdvltalk
Thanks,
Linda

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Re: [wdvltalk] SCR: lf.mechavox.com

2004-12-08 Thread Stephen Caudill
Trusz, Andrew wrote:
No you can't imagine that! Nobody is that depraved. This is a sustained,
decades long, group effort rooted in ever compounding bad decisions. 
Oh, sure I can!  I've developed along side too many MicroSoftHeads to 
not be able to imagine it.  Glad you're not having to suffer that 
particular fate though :P

Think custom dlls, active-x required, no validation, and a bizarre locked
down version of IE6 (add the patch, remove the patch, reinstall the patch,
patch the patch). If it were internet and not intranet we'd be covered in
alligators.
Been down that road before too... Scary place to browse :)  That was at 
my last employers in fact.  Before I left though, I'd whipped things 
into enough shape that I could get on the intranet with Mozilla if I 
faked the UA.

Oh since I haven't figured out (or even found) the new web based interface
for the list, I'll have to shoot the reply to the gmail box if that's ok?
I'm not subscribed from home.
Fine by me.  Maybe Linda will pick this up though and let us all know 
where the new web based interface is...  OH!!! And while I'm at it, does 
the new list software have an archive?  We haven't had a roundup since 
2002...

- Stephen
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Re: [wdvltalk] SCR: lf.mechavox.com

2004-12-08 Thread Stephen Caudill
Linda Cole wrote:
Drew:
Oh since I haven't figured out (or even found) the new web based 
interface
for the list, I'll have to shoot the reply to the gmail box if that's ok?

http://intm-dl.sparklist.com/read/?forum=wdvltalk
Oooh!  I like the new interface :)  And you can get an RSS feed too?? 
Well, it's not well formed, but I can still pull it up in FeedDemon :) 
Snifty!  Any way we could we get a link put on WDVL to this?

Thanks,
Stephen
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RE: [wdvltalk] SCR: lf.mechavox.com

2004-12-08 Thread Trusz, Andrew
Oh good you were listening! 

-Original Message-
From: Linda Cole [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 2004 2:03 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: [wdvltalk] SCR: lf.mechavox.com

Drew:

Oh since I haven't figured out (or even found) the new web based 
interface for the list, I'll have to shoot the reply to the gmail box if
that's ok?

http://intm-dl.sparklist.com/read/?forum=wdvltalk


Thanks,
Linda




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RE: [wdvltalk] SCR: lf.mechavox.com

2004-12-08 Thread Linda Cole
At 02:15 PM 12/8/2004 -0500, you wrote:
Oh good you were listening!
heh heh.  Only with half an ear.  It's lucky I saw it.  If you guys need 
anything at all (pertaining to the list g), please don't hesitate to 
contact me directly.

Thanks,
Linda

-Original Message-
From: Linda Cole [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 2004 2:03 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: [wdvltalk] SCR: lf.mechavox.com
Drew:
Oh since I haven't figured out (or even found) the new web based
interface for the list, I'll have to shoot the reply to the gmail box if
that's ok?
http://intm-dl.sparklist.com/read/?forum=wdvltalk
Thanks,
Linda

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Re: [wdvltalk] SCR: lf.mechavox.com

2004-12-08 Thread Linda Cole

http://intm-dl.sparklist.com/read/?forum=wdvltalk
Oooh!  I like the new interface :)  And you can get an RSS feed too?? 
Well, it's not well formed, but I can still pull it up in FeedDemon :) 
Snifty!  Any way we could we get a link put on WDVL to this?
I believe it's in the works to have it added to the WDVL site, but I don't 
work on that site myself any more so can't say at what stage the addition 
might be.  In the meantime, there's a link to the web interface at the 
bottom of each post, it just doesn't say 'web interface.'  (I'll add that.)

To change subscription settings or add a password:
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Thanks,
Linda
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[wdvltalk] OT Code in pages vs Code behind pages.

2004-12-08 Thread Hoenig, Robert
Does anyone know the difference between Code in pages and Code behind
pages??  This would be in reference to an ASP.Net programming job.

Thank you
Robert

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re:[wdvltalk] SCR: lf.mechavox.com

2004-12-08 Thread Trusz, Andrew
Well, one significant problem in Konquerer 3.1.4. The navigation list loads but 
then becomes obscured. The links change from words to a symbol which looks like 
stacked equilaeral triangles turned on edge. Other than that, the page looks 
fine. 

And you're right, Stephen, the web interface is nice.

drew
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Re: [wdvltalk] OT Code in pages vs Code behind pages.

2004-12-08 Thread Stephen Caudill
Hoenig, Robert wrote:
Does anyone know the difference between Code in pages and Code behind
pages??  This would be in reference to an ASP.Net programming job.
Google:
http://www.4guysfromrolla.com/webtech/100500-1.shtml
And I believe it's referred to as Code-Behind by most and Evil by 
me.  If you see Bill, tell him I still owe him a knuckle sandwich.

- Stephen
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Re: [wdvltalk] SCR: lf.mechavox.com

2004-12-08 Thread Stephen Caudill
Trusz, Andrew wrote:
Well, one significant problem in Konquerer 3.1.4. The navigation list loads but then becomes obscured. The links change from words to a symbol which looks like stacked equilaeral triangles turned on edge. Other than that, the page looks fine. 

And you're right, Stephen, the web interface is nice.
Thanks Drew!  Any chance I might get a screen grab?  I would be indebted 
to you :)

- Stephen
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[wdvltalk] Changing IE address bar shortcut Icon

2004-12-08 Thread Hoenig, Robert
I'm trying to change the IE shortcut icon and using 

LINK REL=shortcut icon href=/icons/ims.ico 

Also tried
LINK REL=icon href=/icons/ims.ico 

That doesn't seem to be working.  I've cleared the cache and still nothing.

Thank you
Robert

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Re: [wdvltalk] Changing IE address bar shortcut Icon

2004-12-08 Thread John Hughes
Robert,

Here's what I use

link rel = shortcut icon href = /favicon.ico

Have you double-checked that your href is pointing to the right place?

Also have you created the icon using specific icon builder software like
Icon Forge? You're likely to run into problems otherwise.

John.

- Original Message -
From: Hoenig, Robert [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 2004 8:57 PM
Subject: [wdvltalk] Changing IE address bar shortcut Icon


 I'm trying to change the IE shortcut icon and using

 LINK REL=shortcut icon href=/icons/ims.ico

 Also tried
 LINK REL=icon href=/icons/ims.ico

 That doesn't seem to be working.  I've cleared the cache and still
nothing.

 Thank you
 Robert

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RE: [wdvltalk] OT Code in pages vs Code behind pages.

2004-12-08 Thread Cheryl D Wise
Code in the page is like classic asp. While code behind is in a separate
page and linked to the page via an asp @page declaration:

%@ Page Language=vb Codebehind=week21a.aspx.vb
Inherits=testdeploy2.WebForm2% 

In theory it makes code reuse easier. Difficult to work with unless you are
using an IDE that supports codebehind like Visual Studio.NET. Current
version sucks for web development but the 2005 version (Whidbey) is a big
improvement.

Its biggest advantage as far as I'm concerned is that if you have a designer
and developer working together the designer doesn't have to even see much
less be able to mess up the code when working on the page.

There is a beta of the lite version for web development available at
http://lab.msdn.microsoft.com/express/vwd/default.aspx

FWIW, the .NET framework is a web standard approved by the ... (argh I hate
when I blank out on something as I go to say/write it). Anyway, there are
implementation for Linux (http://go-mono.org) and FreeBSD/Mac OS X
(http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyId=3A1C93FA-7462-47D0
-8E56-8DD34C6292F0displaylang=en or http://tinyurl.com/9onm) the latter is
a Shared Source release funded by Microsoft and produced in conjunction with
Berkley. (Fortunately on that site they mentioned the certifying standards
body EMCA so I can put that in now.)

Cheryl D. Wise
Certified Professional Web Developer
Microsoft FrontPage MVP
http://wiserways.com 


-Original Message-
From: Stephen Caudill

Hoenig, Robert wrote:
 Does anyone know the difference between Code in pages and Code 
 behind pages??  This would be in reference to an ASP.Net programming job.

Google:

http://www.4guysfromrolla.com/webtech/100500-1.shtml

And I believe it's referred to as Code-Behind by most and Evil by me.
If you see Bill, tell him I still owe him a knuckle sandwich.


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RE: [wdvltalk] Changing IE address bar shortcut Icon

2004-12-08 Thread Cheryl D Wise
Should be:
link rel=shortcut icon href=favicon.ico 

I'd check your file path. I also seem to recall that for some you need to
have it in the root of your website or have an absolute path to the image.

Cheryl D. Wise
Certified Professional Web Developer
Microsoft FrontPage MVP
http://wiserways.com 


-Original Message-
From: Hoenig, Robert 

I'm trying to change the IE shortcut icon and using 

LINK REL=shortcut icon href=/icons/ims.ico 

Also tried
LINK REL=icon href=/icons/ims.ico 

That doesn't seem to be working.  I've cleared the cache and still nothing.


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