Re: [Wikidata-l] Auto-transliteration of names of humans

[Gerard Meijssen]

Hoi,
It is a Wiktionary thing  :( and yes we can and yes we should already
do this/
Thanks,
   GerardM

On 3 May 2015 at 10:43, Jo  wrote:

> Once IPA is there it may be easier to provide Text-to-speech automatically.
>
> 2015-05-02 16:57 GMT+02:00 Thomas Douillard :
>
>> I'll all with you, on this, unfortunately only a few people reads IPA
>> currently :(. I don't, for example.
>>
>> 2015-05-02 15:19 GMT+02:00 Gerard Meijssen :
>>
>>> Hoi,
>>> When the point is to express how an official name is to be pronounced,
>>> IPA is in order not a text in another script.
>>> Thanks,
>>>  GerardM
>>>
>>> On 1 May 2015 at 11:04, Bene*  wrote:
>>>
  Hi,

 this is what the monolingual text datatype is for. The labels however
 are multilingual and should provide users in all languages an idea how the
 name is said.

 Best regards
 Bene


 Am 01.05.2015 um 07:14 schrieb Gerard Meijssen:

 Hoi,
 It is still a bad idea. An official name exists only in one language.
 Thanks,
  GerardM

 On 30 April 2015 at 18:50, Thomas Douillard >>> > wrote:

>  I meant "add automatically the transliteration", not replace the
> name.
>
>  This is a good candidate : we know for sure the source and the target
> language (the one of the user) so a good choice for transliteration method
> is always possible, and we don't pretend it should be the way to say 
> orally
> the name in the target language. It's just a transliteration of the
> official name.
>
>
>
> 2015-04-30 15:14 GMT+02:00 Gerard Meijssen 
> :
>
>>   Hoi,
>>  It does not quality anything. It is plain wrong.
>>  Thanks,
>>   GerardM
>>
>> On 30 April 2015 at 15:06, Joe Filceolaire 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Exactly. The "official name " property always has the name in the
>>> original script. But we can and should have the transliteration in a
>>> qualifier.
>>>
>>> Joe
>>>   On 30 Apr 2015 06:13, "Gerard Meijssen" 
>>> wrote:
>>>
   Hoi,
  We transliterate every name from one script to the other.
 Transliteration the official name is exactly the one you should not
 transliterate.. What is left after transliteration is not official.
  Thanks,
GerardM

 On 29 April 2015 at 18:54, Thomas Douillard <
 thomas.douill...@gmail.com> wrote:

>  It's always possible to transliterate the official name
> property. Of course
> this should be done by a gadget, or we may have to find a special 
> treatment
> for the ''name'' properties.
>
> 2015-04-28 23:06 GMT+02:00 Joe Filceolaire 
> :
>
>> I agree up to a point. Transliteration is not appropriate for
>> labels for all items.  There are however a few categories of items 
>> for
>> which transliterated labels are appropriate. For example :
>> * English labels for villages and towns
>> * English labels for people
>> *English labels for bands and albums
>> I'm sure there are  others that could use this too.
>>
>> Joe
>>   On 27 Apr 2015 18:09, "Leon Liesener" <
>> leon.liese...@wikipedia.de> wrote:
>>
>>> The problem with ISO is that it's a standard for
>>> language-independent
>>> transliteration to Latin script. Since labels on Wikidata are
>>> language-dependent, making use of ISO does not make sense
>>> really. If
>>> you use ISO for Russian names in Cyrillic script, the label you
>>> get is
>>> not in English. It's still in Russian but transliterated to Latin
>>> script. ISO thus would only fit as an alias for the Russian
>>> interface
>>> language, if at all.
>>>
>>> 2015-04-26 22:39 GMT+02:00 Gerard Meijssen <
>>> gerard.meijs...@gmail.com>:
>>> > Hoi,
>>> >  ISO is a reliable source; it is THE standard 
>>> Wikipedia is
>>> > definitely not a standard by its own admission.
>>> > Thanks,
>>> > GerardM
>>> >
>>> > On 26 April 2015 at 22:37, Yaroslav M. Blanter <
>>> pute...@mccme.ru> wrote:
>>> >>
>>> >> On 2015-04-26 22:33, Gerard Meijssen wrote:
>>> >>>
>>> >>> Hoi
>>> >>> My point is that it is not a given that we should follow any
>>> WIkipedia
>>> >>> for anything. Also the point of romanisation of Russian is
>>> not for the
>>> >>> benefit of Russian speakers, it is for the speakers of
>>> English.
>>> >>> Thanks,
>>> >>>   GerardM
>>> >>>
>>> >>
>>> >> On one hand, yes.
>>> >>
>>> >> On the other hand, n

Re: [Wikidata-l] Auto-transliteration of names of humans

[Jo]

Once IPA is there it may be easier to provide Text-to-speech automatically.

2015-05-02 16:57 GMT+02:00 Thomas Douillard :

> I'll all with you, on this, unfortunately only a few people reads IPA
> currently :(. I don't, for example.
>
> 2015-05-02 15:19 GMT+02:00 Gerard Meijssen :
>
>> Hoi,
>> When the point is to express how an official name is to be pronounced,
>> IPA is in order not a text in another script.
>> Thanks,
>>  GerardM
>>
>> On 1 May 2015 at 11:04, Bene*  wrote:
>>
>>>  Hi,
>>>
>>> this is what the monolingual text datatype is for. The labels however
>>> are multilingual and should provide users in all languages an idea how the
>>> name is said.
>>>
>>> Best regards
>>> Bene
>>>
>>>
>>> Am 01.05.2015 um 07:14 schrieb Gerard Meijssen:
>>>
>>> Hoi,
>>> It is still a bad idea. An official name exists only in one language.
>>> Thanks,
>>>  GerardM
>>>
>>> On 30 April 2015 at 18:50, Thomas Douillard 
>>> wrote:
>>>
  I meant "add automatically the transliteration", not replace the name.

  This is a good candidate : we know for sure the source and the target
 language (the one of the user) so a good choice for transliteration method
 is always possible, and we don't pretend it should be the way to say orally
 the name in the target language. It's just a transliteration of the
 official name.



 2015-04-30 15:14 GMT+02:00 Gerard Meijssen :

>   Hoi,
>  It does not quality anything. It is plain wrong.
>  Thanks,
>   GerardM
>
> On 30 April 2015 at 15:06, Joe Filceolaire 
> wrote:
>
>> Exactly. The "official name " property always has the name in the
>> original script. But we can and should have the transliteration in a
>> qualifier.
>>
>> Joe
>>   On 30 Apr 2015 06:13, "Gerard Meijssen" 
>> wrote:
>>
>>>   Hoi,
>>>  We transliterate every name from one script to the other.
>>> Transliteration the official name is exactly the one you should not
>>> transliterate.. What is left after transliteration is not official.
>>>  Thanks,
>>>GerardM
>>>
>>> On 29 April 2015 at 18:54, Thomas Douillard <
>>> thomas.douill...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
  It's always possible to transliterate the official name
 property. Of course
 this should be done by a gadget, or we may have to find a special 
 treatment
 for the ''name'' properties.

 2015-04-28 23:06 GMT+02:00 Joe Filceolaire :

> I agree up to a point. Transliteration is not appropriate for
> labels for all items.  There are however a few categories of items for
> which transliterated labels are appropriate. For example :
> * English labels for villages and towns
> * English labels for people
> *English labels for bands and albums
> I'm sure there are  others that could use this too.
>
> Joe
>   On 27 Apr 2015 18:09, "Leon Liesener" <
> leon.liese...@wikipedia.de> wrote:
>
>> The problem with ISO is that it's a standard for
>> language-independent
>> transliteration to Latin script. Since labels on Wikidata are
>> language-dependent, making use of ISO does not make sense really.
>> If
>> you use ISO for Russian names in Cyrillic script, the label you
>> get is
>> not in English. It's still in Russian but transliterated to Latin
>> script. ISO thus would only fit as an alias for the Russian
>> interface
>> language, if at all.
>>
>> 2015-04-26 22:39 GMT+02:00 Gerard Meijssen <
>> gerard.meijs...@gmail.com>:
>> > Hoi,
>> >  ISO is a reliable source; it is THE standard 
>> Wikipedia is
>> > definitely not a standard by its own admission.
>> > Thanks,
>> > GerardM
>> >
>> > On 26 April 2015 at 22:37, Yaroslav M. Blanter <
>> pute...@mccme.ru> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> On 2015-04-26 22:33, Gerard Meijssen wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>> Hoi
>> >>> My point is that it is not a given that we should follow any
>> WIkipedia
>> >>> for anything. Also the point of romanisation of Russian is
>> not for the
>> >>> benefit of Russian speakers, it is for the speakers of
>> English.
>> >>> Thanks,
>> >>>   GerardM
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >> On one hand, yes.
>> >>
>> >> On the other hand, no reliable source uses ISO. When NYT
>> writes about a
>> >> Russian person, they do not use ISO, they use what the English
>> Wikipedia
>> >> uses or smth similar. In my passport, they do not use ISO
>> (fortunately), why
>> >> should then ISO be used on Wikidata in an entry

Re: [Wikidata-l] Auto-transliteration of names of humans

[Thomas Douillard]

I'll all with you, on this, unfortunately only a few people reads IPA
currently :(. I don't, for example.

2015-05-02 15:19 GMT+02:00 Gerard Meijssen :

> Hoi,
> When the point is to express how an official name is to be pronounced, IPA
> is in order not a text in another script.
> Thanks,
>  GerardM
>
> On 1 May 2015 at 11:04, Bene*  wrote:
>
>>  Hi,
>>
>> this is what the monolingual text datatype is for. The labels however are
>> multilingual and should provide users in all languages an idea how the name
>> is said.
>>
>> Best regards
>> Bene
>>
>>
>> Am 01.05.2015 um 07:14 schrieb Gerard Meijssen:
>>
>> Hoi,
>> It is still a bad idea. An official name exists only in one language.
>> Thanks,
>>  GerardM
>>
>> On 30 April 2015 at 18:50, Thomas Douillard 
>> wrote:
>>
>>>  I meant "add automatically the transliteration", not replace the name.
>>>
>>>  This is a good candidate : we know for sure the source and the target
>>> language (the one of the user) so a good choice for transliteration method
>>> is always possible, and we don't pretend it should be the way to say orally
>>> the name in the target language. It's just a transliteration of the
>>> official name.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 2015-04-30 15:14 GMT+02:00 Gerard Meijssen :
>>>
   Hoi,
  It does not quality anything. It is plain wrong.
  Thanks,
   GerardM

 On 30 April 2015 at 15:06, Joe Filceolaire 
 wrote:

> Exactly. The "official name " property always has the name in the
> original script. But we can and should have the transliteration in a
> qualifier.
>
> Joe
>   On 30 Apr 2015 06:13, "Gerard Meijssen" 
> wrote:
>
>>   Hoi,
>>  We transliterate every name from one script to the other.
>> Transliteration the official name is exactly the one you should not
>> transliterate.. What is left after transliteration is not official.
>>  Thanks,
>>GerardM
>>
>> On 29 April 2015 at 18:54, Thomas Douillard <
>> thomas.douill...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>  It's always possible to transliterate the official name
>>> property. Of course
>>> this should be done by a gadget, or we may have to find a special 
>>> treatment
>>> for the ''name'' properties.
>>>
>>> 2015-04-28 23:06 GMT+02:00 Joe Filceolaire :
>>>
 I agree up to a point. Transliteration is not appropriate for
 labels for all items.  There are however a few categories of items for
 which transliterated labels are appropriate. For example :
 * English labels for villages and towns
 * English labels for people
 *English labels for bands and albums
 I'm sure there are  others that could use this too.

 Joe
   On 27 Apr 2015 18:09, "Leon Liesener" 
 wrote:

> The problem with ISO is that it's a standard for
> language-independent
> transliteration to Latin script. Since labels on Wikidata are
> language-dependent, making use of ISO does not make sense really.
> If
> you use ISO for Russian names in Cyrillic script, the label you
> get is
> not in English. It's still in Russian but transliterated to Latin
> script. ISO thus would only fit as an alias for the Russian
> interface
> language, if at all.
>
> 2015-04-26 22:39 GMT+02:00 Gerard Meijssen <
> gerard.meijs...@gmail.com>:
> > Hoi,
> >  ISO is a reliable source; it is THE standard 
> Wikipedia is
> > definitely not a standard by its own admission.
> > Thanks,
> > GerardM
> >
> > On 26 April 2015 at 22:37, Yaroslav M. Blanter 
> wrote:
> >>
> >> On 2015-04-26 22:33, Gerard Meijssen wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Hoi
> >>> My point is that it is not a given that we should follow any
> WIkipedia
> >>> for anything. Also the point of romanisation of Russian is not
> for the
> >>> benefit of Russian speakers, it is for the speakers of English.
> >>> Thanks,
> >>>   GerardM
> >>>
> >>
> >> On one hand, yes.
> >>
> >> On the other hand, no reliable source uses ISO. When NYT writes
> about a
> >> Russian person, they do not use ISO, they use what the English
> Wikipedia
> >> uses or smth similar. In my passport, they do not use ISO
> (fortunately), why
> >> should then ISO be used on Wikidata in an entry about me?
> >>
> >>
> >> Cheers
> >> Yaroslav
> >>
> >> ___
> >> Wikidata-l mailing list
> >> Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> >> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
> >
>>>

Re: [Wikidata-l] Auto-transliteration of names of humans

[Thomas Douillard]

I think it would be nice if the *official name* property could have a
special treatment in the UI. Something like the way you plan to sort out
ids out of the rest of the statements :) But I have no idea.

It's an important things, the name the local people gives to a place or a
thing, it may be on road signs for example. It's kind of the "Main Name".

2015-05-02 11:54 GMT+02:00 Daniel Kinzler :

> Am 02.05.2015 um 11:32 schrieb Thomas Douillard:
> > Yes, that's what they are for, but wikidata is far from beeing complete,
> and if
> > there is no label in your language, showing next to the original name a
> > transliteration in your language could prove useful. I can very well
> imagine
> > situations where it is unclear on how to say a Chinese name, for example.
> > Putting a label in french can somewhat be a hard task, for example.
>
> Automatic transliteration is already implemented and used. You will notice
> if
> you set your user language to sr-el for instance (Serbian using latin
> alphabet).
> However:
>
> * Transliteration is currently only supported between a handful of language
> variants, like the different scripts for Serbian, and various variants of
> Chinese.
>
> * Transliteration (and language fallback in general) is only applied inside
> statements, not for editable labels, descriptions and aliases at the top
> of the
> page. It's unclear hoe language fallback should interact with editing.
>
> * Transliteration (and language fallback in general) may not work
> correctly in
> qualifiers and references at the moment.
>
> So, the general mechanism is already there, the question is just how to
> improve
> an apply it. It seems to me that we could use transliteration support for
> more
> languages, and that we should figure out a way to apply it to the "main"
> label
> and description shown at the top of the page.
>
>
> --
> Daniel Kinzler
> Senior Software Developer
>
> Wikimedia Deutschland
> Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens e.V.
>
> ___
> Wikidata-l mailing list
> Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
>
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Re: [Wikidata-l] Auto-transliteration of names of humans

[Gerard Meijssen]

Hoi,
When the point is to express how an official name is to be pronounced, IPA
is in order not a text in another script.
Thanks,
 GerardM

On 1 May 2015 at 11:04, Bene*  wrote:

>  Hi,
>
> this is what the monolingual text datatype is for. The labels however are
> multilingual and should provide users in all languages an idea how the name
> is said.
>
> Best regards
> Bene
>
>
> Am 01.05.2015 um 07:14 schrieb Gerard Meijssen:
>
> Hoi,
> It is still a bad idea. An official name exists only in one language.
> Thanks,
>  GerardM
>
> On 30 April 2015 at 18:50, Thomas Douillard 
> wrote:
>
>>  I meant "add automatically the transliteration", not replace the name.
>>
>>  This is a good candidate : we know for sure the source and the target
>> language (the one of the user) so a good choice for transliteration method
>> is always possible, and we don't pretend it should be the way to say orally
>> the name in the target language. It's just a transliteration of the
>> official name.
>>
>>
>>
>> 2015-04-30 15:14 GMT+02:00 Gerard Meijssen :
>>
>>>   Hoi,
>>>  It does not quality anything. It is plain wrong.
>>>  Thanks,
>>>   GerardM
>>>
>>> On 30 April 2015 at 15:06, Joe Filceolaire 
>>> wrote:
>>>
 Exactly. The "official name " property always has the name in the
 original script. But we can and should have the transliteration in a
 qualifier.

 Joe
   On 30 Apr 2015 06:13, "Gerard Meijssen" 
 wrote:

>   Hoi,
>  We transliterate every name from one script to the other.
> Transliteration the official name is exactly the one you should not
> transliterate.. What is left after transliteration is not official.
>  Thanks,
>GerardM
>
> On 29 April 2015 at 18:54, Thomas Douillard <
> thomas.douill...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>  It's always possible to transliterate the official name
>> property. Of course
>> this should be done by a gadget, or we may have to find a special 
>> treatment
>> for the ''name'' properties.
>>
>> 2015-04-28 23:06 GMT+02:00 Joe Filceolaire :
>>
>>> I agree up to a point. Transliteration is not appropriate for labels
>>> for all items.  There are however a few categories of items for which
>>> transliterated labels are appropriate. For example :
>>> * English labels for villages and towns
>>> * English labels for people
>>> *English labels for bands and albums
>>> I'm sure there are  others that could use this too.
>>>
>>> Joe
>>>   On 27 Apr 2015 18:09, "Leon Liesener" 
>>> wrote:
>>>
 The problem with ISO is that it's a standard for
 language-independent
 transliteration to Latin script. Since labels on Wikidata are
 language-dependent, making use of ISO does not make sense really. If
 you use ISO for Russian names in Cyrillic script, the label you get
 is
 not in English. It's still in Russian but transliterated to Latin
 script. ISO thus would only fit as an alias for the Russian
 interface
 language, if at all.

 2015-04-26 22:39 GMT+02:00 Gerard Meijssen <
 gerard.meijs...@gmail.com>:
 > Hoi,
 >  ISO is a reliable source; it is THE standard 
 Wikipedia is
 > definitely not a standard by its own admission.
 > Thanks,
 > GerardM
 >
 > On 26 April 2015 at 22:37, Yaroslav M. Blanter 
 wrote:
 >>
 >> On 2015-04-26 22:33, Gerard Meijssen wrote:
 >>>
 >>> Hoi
 >>> My point is that it is not a given that we should follow any
 WIkipedia
 >>> for anything. Also the point of romanisation of Russian is not
 for the
 >>> benefit of Russian speakers, it is for the speakers of English.
 >>> Thanks,
 >>>   GerardM
 >>>
 >>
 >> On one hand, yes.
 >>
 >> On the other hand, no reliable source uses ISO. When NYT writes
 about a
 >> Russian person, they do not use ISO, they use what the English
 Wikipedia
 >> uses or smth similar. In my passport, they do not use ISO
 (fortunately), why
 >> should then ISO be used on Wikidata in an entry about me?
 >>
 >>
 >> Cheers
 >> Yaroslav
 >>
 >> ___
 >> Wikidata-l mailing list
 >> Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org
 >> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
 >
 >
 >
 > ___
 > Wikidata-l mailing list
 > Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org
 > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
 >

 ___
 Wikid

Re: [Wikidata-l] Auto-transliteration of names of humans

[Daniel Kinzler]

Am 02.05.2015 um 11:32 schrieb Thomas Douillard:
> Yes, that's what they are for, but wikidata is far from beeing complete, and 
> if
> there is no label in your language, showing next to the original name a
> transliteration in your language could prove useful. I can very well imagine
> situations where it is unclear on how to say a Chinese name, for example.
> Putting a label in french can somewhat be a hard task, for example.

Automatic transliteration is already implemented and used. You will notice if
you set your user language to sr-el for instance (Serbian using latin alphabet).
However:

* Transliteration is currently only supported between a handful of language
variants, like the different scripts for Serbian, and various variants of 
Chinese.

* Transliteration (and language fallback in general) is only applied inside
statements, not for editable labels, descriptions and aliases at the top of the
page. It's unclear hoe language fallback should interact with editing.

* Transliteration (and language fallback in general) may not work correctly in
qualifiers and references at the moment.

So, the general mechanism is already there, the question is just how to improve
an apply it. It seems to me that we could use transliteration support for more
languages, and that we should figure out a way to apply it to the "main" label
and description shown at the top of the page.


-- 
Daniel Kinzler
Senior Software Developer

Wikimedia Deutschland
Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens e.V.

___
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Re: [Wikidata-l] Auto-transliteration of names of humans

[Thomas Douillard]

Yes, that's what they are for, but wikidata is far from beeing complete,
and if there is no label in your language, showing next to the original
name a transliteration in your language could prove useful. I can very well
imagine situations where it is unclear on how to say a Chinese name, for
example. Putting a label in french can somewhat be a hard task, for example.


2015-05-01 11:04 GMT+02:00 Bene* :

>  Hi,
>
> this is what the monolingual text datatype is for. The labels however are
> multilingual and should provide users in all languages an idea how the name
> is said.
>
> Best regards
> Bene
>
>
> Am 01.05.2015 um 07:14 schrieb Gerard Meijssen:
>
> Hoi,
> It is still a bad idea. An official name exists only in one language.
> Thanks,
>  GerardM
>
> On 30 April 2015 at 18:50, Thomas Douillard 
> wrote:
>
>>  I meant "add automatically the transliteration", not replace the name.
>>
>>  This is a good candidate : we know for sure the source and the target
>> language (the one of the user) so a good choice for transliteration method
>> is always possible, and we don't pretend it should be the way to say orally
>> the name in the target language. It's just a transliteration of the
>> official name.
>>
>>
>>
>> 2015-04-30 15:14 GMT+02:00 Gerard Meijssen :
>>
>>>   Hoi,
>>>  It does not quality anything. It is plain wrong.
>>>  Thanks,
>>>   GerardM
>>>
>>> On 30 April 2015 at 15:06, Joe Filceolaire 
>>> wrote:
>>>
 Exactly. The "official name " property always has the name in the
 original script. But we can and should have the transliteration in a
 qualifier.

 Joe
   On 30 Apr 2015 06:13, "Gerard Meijssen" 
 wrote:

>   Hoi,
>  We transliterate every name from one script to the other.
> Transliteration the official name is exactly the one you should not
> transliterate.. What is left after transliteration is not official.
>  Thanks,
>GerardM
>
> On 29 April 2015 at 18:54, Thomas Douillard <
> thomas.douill...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>  It's always possible to transliterate the official name
>> property. Of course
>> this should be done by a gadget, or we may have to find a special 
>> treatment
>> for the ''name'' properties.
>>
>> 2015-04-28 23:06 GMT+02:00 Joe Filceolaire :
>>
>>> I agree up to a point. Transliteration is not appropriate for labels
>>> for all items.  There are however a few categories of items for which
>>> transliterated labels are appropriate. For example :
>>> * English labels for villages and towns
>>> * English labels for people
>>> *English labels for bands and albums
>>> I'm sure there are  others that could use this too.
>>>
>>> Joe
>>>   On 27 Apr 2015 18:09, "Leon Liesener" 
>>> wrote:
>>>
 The problem with ISO is that it's a standard for
 language-independent
 transliteration to Latin script. Since labels on Wikidata are
 language-dependent, making use of ISO does not make sense really. If
 you use ISO for Russian names in Cyrillic script, the label you get
 is
 not in English. It's still in Russian but transliterated to Latin
 script. ISO thus would only fit as an alias for the Russian
 interface
 language, if at all.

 2015-04-26 22:39 GMT+02:00 Gerard Meijssen <
 gerard.meijs...@gmail.com>:
 > Hoi,
 >  ISO is a reliable source; it is THE standard 
 Wikipedia is
 > definitely not a standard by its own admission.
 > Thanks,
 > GerardM
 >
 > On 26 April 2015 at 22:37, Yaroslav M. Blanter 
 wrote:
 >>
 >> On 2015-04-26 22:33, Gerard Meijssen wrote:
 >>>
 >>> Hoi
 >>> My point is that it is not a given that we should follow any
 WIkipedia
 >>> for anything. Also the point of romanisation of Russian is not
 for the
 >>> benefit of Russian speakers, it is for the speakers of English.
 >>> Thanks,
 >>>   GerardM
 >>>
 >>
 >> On one hand, yes.
 >>
 >> On the other hand, no reliable source uses ISO. When NYT writes
 about a
 >> Russian person, they do not use ISO, they use what the English
 Wikipedia
 >> uses or smth similar. In my passport, they do not use ISO
 (fortunately), why
 >> should then ISO be used on Wikidata in an entry about me?
 >>
 >>
 >> Cheers
 >> Yaroslav
 >>
 >> ___
 >> Wikidata-l mailing list
 >> Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org
 >> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
 >
 >
 >
 > ___
 

Re: [Wikidata-l] Auto-transliteration of names of humans

[Bene*]

Hi,

this is what the monolingual text datatype is for. The labels however 
are multilingual and should provide users in all languages an idea how 
the name is said.


Best regards
Bene

Am 01.05.2015 um 07:14 schrieb Gerard Meijssen:

Hoi,
It is still a bad idea. An official name exists only in one language.
Thanks,
 GerardM

On 30 April 2015 at 18:50, Thomas Douillard 
mailto:thomas.douill...@gmail.com>> wrote:


I meant "add automatically the transliteration", not replace the name.

This is a good candidate : we know for sure the source and the
target language (the one of the user) so a good choice for
transliteration method is always possible, and we don't pretend it
should be the way to say orally the name in the target language.
It's just a transliteration of the official name.



2015-04-30 15:14 GMT+02:00 Gerard Meijssen
mailto:gerard.meijs...@gmail.com>>:

Hoi,
It does not quality anything. It is plain wrong.
Thanks,
 GerardM

On 30 April 2015 at 15:06, Joe Filceolaire
mailto:filceola...@gmail.com>> wrote:

Exactly. The "official name " property always has the name
in the original script. But we can and should have the
transliteration in a qualifier.

Joe

On 30 Apr 2015 06:13, "Gerard Meijssen"
mailto:gerard.meijs...@gmail.com>> wrote:

Hoi,
We transliterate every name from one script to the
other. Transliteration the official name is exactly
the one you should not transliterate.. What is left
after transliteration is not official.
Thanks,
  GerardM

On 29 April 2015 at 18:54, Thomas Douillard
mailto:thomas.douill...@gmail.com>> wrote:

It's always possible to transliterate the official
name
property.
Of course this should be done by a gadget, or we
may have to find a special treatment for the
''name'' properties.

2015-04-28 23:06 GMT+02:00 Joe Filceolaire
mailto:filceola...@gmail.com>>:

I agree up to a point. Transliteration is not
appropriate for labels for all items. There
are however a few categories of items for
which transliterated labels are appropriate.
For example :
* English labels for villages and towns
* English labels for people
*English labels for bands and albums
I'm sure there are  others that could use this
too.

Joe

On 27 Apr 2015 18:09, "Leon Liesener"
mailto:leon.liese...@wikipedia.de>> wrote:

The problem with ISO is that it's a
standard for language-independent
transliteration to Latin script. Since
labels on Wikidata are
language-dependent, making use of ISO does
not make sense really. If
you use ISO for Russian names in Cyrillic
script, the label you get is
not in English. It's still in Russian but
transliterated to Latin
script. ISO thus would only fit as an
alias for the Russian interface
language, if at all.

2015-04-26 22:39 GMT+02:00 Gerard Meijssen
mailto:gerard.meijs...@gmail.com>>:
> Hoi,
>  ISO is a reliable source; it is
THE standard  Wikipedia is
> definitely not a standard by its own
admission.
> Thanks,
>  GerardM
>
> On 26 April 2015 at 22:37, Yaroslav M.
Blanter mailto:pute...@mccme.ru>> wrote:
>>
>> On 2015-04-26 22:33, Gerard Meijssen wrote:
>>>
>>> Hoi
>>> My point is that it is not a given
that we should follow any WIkipedia
>>> for anything. Also the point of
romanisation of Russian is not for the
>>> bene

Re: [Wikidata-l] Auto-transliteration of names of humans

[Gerard Meijssen]

Hoi
You write what you do. It is just that your arguments are flawed and I do
not accept them for the reasons given.
Thanks,
GerardM

On 1 May 2015 at 21:17, Thomas Douillard  wrote:

> You really don't read what I write or is it me who speaks so badly I can't
> make myself understood ? I'm beginning to wonder ... :)
>
> 2015-05-01 19:47 GMT+02:00 Gerard Meijssen :
>
>> Hoi,
>> You rest your case Fine. You do not address the point that an official
>> name is exactly that. It is the name as used by authorities. Typically it
>> is what is used in registers, in passports. You do not have those for your
>> convenience in any language. It does not matter what you can read or not.
>> What matters is that you can accept is that it is not about you and your
>> understanding. For this it is not relevant.
>>
>> When you want to make a trip to another country you look for the label
>> for your item.
>> Thanks,
>>  GerardM
>>
>> On 1 May 2015 at 19:19, Thomas Douillard 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> I can't add more than I already did, I think, so I'll rest my case. A
>>> part of the work in Wikidata is building the database and guessing what
>>> could be unidentified items there only is informations in a language we
>>> don't understand or an alphabet we can't read. And there is no label in our
>>> language, and we want to put some. In that case, any information is useful.
>>> Or we plan a trip in the country in question and we want to have an idea of
>>> how to say the name in the language, or ...
>>>
>>> ___
>>> Wikidata-l mailing list
>>> Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
>>>
>>>
>>
>> ___
>> Wikidata-l mailing list
>> Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
>>
>>
>
> ___
> Wikidata-l mailing list
> Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
>
>
___
Wikidata-l mailing list
Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l

Re: [Wikidata-l] Auto-transliteration of names of humans

[Thomas Douillard]

You really don't read what I write or is it me who speaks so badly I can't
make myself understood ? I'm beginning to wonder ... :)

2015-05-01 19:47 GMT+02:00 Gerard Meijssen :

> Hoi,
> You rest your case Fine. You do not address the point that an official
> name is exactly that. It is the name as used by authorities. Typically it
> is what is used in registers, in passports. You do not have those for your
> convenience in any language. It does not matter what you can read or not.
> What matters is that you can accept is that it is not about you and your
> understanding. For this it is not relevant.
>
> When you want to make a trip to another country you look for the label for
> your item.
> Thanks,
>  GerardM
>
> On 1 May 2015 at 19:19, Thomas Douillard 
> wrote:
>
>> I can't add more than I already did, I think, so I'll rest my case. A
>> part of the work in Wikidata is building the database and guessing what
>> could be unidentified items there only is informations in a language we
>> don't understand or an alphabet we can't read. And there is no label in our
>> language, and we want to put some. In that case, any information is useful.
>> Or we plan a trip in the country in question and we want to have an idea of
>> how to say the name in the language, or ...
>>
>> ___
>> Wikidata-l mailing list
>> Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
>>
>>
>
> ___
> Wikidata-l mailing list
> Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
>
>
___
Wikidata-l mailing list
Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l

Re: [Wikidata-l] Auto-transliteration of names of humans

[Gerard Meijssen]

Hoi,
You rest your case Fine. You do not address the point that an official name
is exactly that. It is the name as used by authorities. Typically it is
what is used in registers, in passports. You do not have those for your
convenience in any language. It does not matter what you can read or not.
What matters is that you can accept is that it is not about you and your
understanding. For this it is not relevant.

When you want to make a trip to another country you look for the label for
your item.
Thanks,
 GerardM

On 1 May 2015 at 19:19, Thomas Douillard  wrote:

> I can't add more than I already did, I think, so I'll rest my case. A part
> of the work in Wikidata is building the database and guessing what could be
> unidentified items there only is informations in a language we don't
> understand or an alphabet we can't read. And there is no label in our
> language, and we want to put some. In that case, any information is useful.
> Or we plan a trip in the country in question and we want to have an idea of
> how to say the name in the language, or ...
>
> ___
> Wikidata-l mailing list
> Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
>
>
___
Wikidata-l mailing list
Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l

Re: [Wikidata-l] Auto-transliteration of names of humans

[Thomas Douillard]

I can't add more than I already did, I think, so I'll rest my case. A part
of the work in Wikidata is building the database and guessing what could be
unidentified items there only is informations in a language we don't
understand or an alphabet we can't read. And there is no label in our
language, and we want to put some. In that case, any information is useful.
Or we plan a trip in the country in question and we want to have an idea of
how to say the name in the language, or ...
___
Wikidata-l mailing list
Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l

Re: [Wikidata-l] Auto-transliteration of names of humans

[Gerard Meijssen]

Hoi,
The point is that you insist on something where I do not see at all an
application or a use case. Why restrict it to the "main users language".
The point of Wikidata is that we do not have those.
Thanks,
 GerardM

On 1 May 2015 at 16:50, Thomas Douillard  wrote:

> ...
>
> I did not say "automatically translate into my on language everybody
> should speak as I'm the only True One in the Universe and everybody should
> bow and learn and pray I'll treat them well and talk in my own language
> otherwise bad things will happen",
>
> I said "transliterate in the main users language", the same reason we
> translate the UI,, the help pages, the Wikipedia articles and so on.
>
> 2015-05-01 16:40 GMT+02:00 Gerard Meijssen :
>
>> Hoi,
>> A name in a script that does not make sense to you is a standard to what?
>> Do not put yourself at the centre of the galaxy... It is a few years ago,
>> that it was proven earth did not centre the sun and the sun is only a spec
>> in our galaxy.
>> Thanks,
>>  GerardM
>>
>> On 1 May 2015 at 11:00, Thomas Douillard 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> An official name in an alphabet I don't understand does not give me any
>>> useful information, not even an idea of how it is said.
>>>
>>> It may be the only information we have for sur of some item. I say it's
>>> a good idea to give the official name in the original language together
>>> with a transliteration in the user language. I don't understand how it
>>> could be a bad idea.
>>>
>>> 2015-05-01 7:14 GMT+02:00 Gerard Meijssen :
>>>
 Hoi,
 It is still a bad idea. An official name exists only in one language.
 Thanks,
  GerardM

 On 30 April 2015 at 18:50, Thomas Douillard >>> > wrote:

> I meant "add automatically the transliteration", not replace the name.
>
> This is a good candidate : we know for sure the source and the target
> language (the one of the user) so a good choice for transliteration method
> is always possible, and we don't pretend it should be the way to say 
> orally
> the name in the target language. It's just a transliteration of the
> official name.
>
>
>
> 2015-04-30 15:14 GMT+02:00 Gerard Meijssen 
> :
>
>> Hoi,
>> It does not quality anything. It is plain wrong.
>> Thanks,
>>  GerardM
>>
>> On 30 April 2015 at 15:06, Joe Filceolaire 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Exactly. The "official name " property always has the name in the
>>> original script. But we can and should have the transliteration in a
>>> qualifier.
>>>
>>> Joe
>>> On 30 Apr 2015 06:13, "Gerard Meijssen" 
>>> wrote:
>>>
 Hoi,
 We transliterate every name from one script to the other.
 Transliteration the official name is exactly the one you should not
 transliterate.. What is left after transliteration is not official.
 Thanks,
   GerardM

 On 29 April 2015 at 18:54, Thomas Douillard <
 thomas.douill...@gmail.com> wrote:

> It's always possible to transliterate the official name
> property. Of course
> this should be done by a gadget, or we may have to find a special 
> treatment
> for the ''name'' properties.
>
> 2015-04-28 23:06 GMT+02:00 Joe Filceolaire 
> :
>
>> I agree up to a point. Transliteration is not appropriate for
>> labels for all items.  There are however a few categories of items 
>> for
>> which transliterated labels are appropriate. For example :
>> * English labels for villages and towns
>> * English labels for people
>> *English labels for bands and albums
>> I'm sure there are  others that could use this too.
>>
>> Joe
>> On 27 Apr 2015 18:09, "Leon Liesener" 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> The problem with ISO is that it's a standard for
>>> language-independent
>>> transliteration to Latin script. Since labels on Wikidata are
>>> language-dependent, making use of ISO does not make sense
>>> really. If
>>> you use ISO for Russian names in Cyrillic script, the label you
>>> get is
>>> not in English. It's still in Russian but transliterated to Latin
>>> script. ISO thus would only fit as an alias for the Russian
>>> interface
>>> language, if at all.
>>>
>>> 2015-04-26 22:39 GMT+02:00 Gerard Meijssen <
>>> gerard.meijs...@gmail.com>:
>>> > Hoi,
>>> >  ISO is a reliable source; it is THE standard 
>>> Wikipedia is
>>> > definitely not a standard by its own admission.
>>> > Thanks,
>>> > GerardM
>>> >
>>> > On 26 April 2015 at 22:37, Yaroslav M. Blanter <
>>> pute...@mccme.ru> wrote:
>>> >>
>>> >> On 

Re: [Wikidata-l] Auto-transliteration of names of humans

[Thomas Douillard]

...

I did not say "automatically translate into my on language everybody should
speak as I'm the only True One in the Universe and everybody should bow and
learn and pray I'll treat them well and talk in my own language otherwise
bad things will happen",

I said "transliterate in the main users language", the same reason we
translate the UI,, the help pages, the Wikipedia articles and so on.

2015-05-01 16:40 GMT+02:00 Gerard Meijssen :

> Hoi,
> A name in a script that does not make sense to you is a standard to what?
> Do not put yourself at the centre of the galaxy... It is a few years ago,
> that it was proven earth did not centre the sun and the sun is only a spec
> in our galaxy.
> Thanks,
>  GerardM
>
> On 1 May 2015 at 11:00, Thomas Douillard 
> wrote:
>
>> An official name in an alphabet I don't understand does not give me any
>> useful information, not even an idea of how it is said.
>>
>> It may be the only information we have for sur of some item. I say it's a
>> good idea to give the official name in the original language together with
>> a transliteration in the user language. I don't understand how it could be
>> a bad idea.
>>
>> 2015-05-01 7:14 GMT+02:00 Gerard Meijssen :
>>
>>> Hoi,
>>> It is still a bad idea. An official name exists only in one language.
>>> Thanks,
>>>  GerardM
>>>
>>> On 30 April 2015 at 18:50, Thomas Douillard 
>>> wrote:
>>>
 I meant "add automatically the transliteration", not replace the name.

 This is a good candidate : we know for sure the source and the target
 language (the one of the user) so a good choice for transliteration method
 is always possible, and we don't pretend it should be the way to say orally
 the name in the target language. It's just a transliteration of the
 official name.



 2015-04-30 15:14 GMT+02:00 Gerard Meijssen :

> Hoi,
> It does not quality anything. It is plain wrong.
> Thanks,
>  GerardM
>
> On 30 April 2015 at 15:06, Joe Filceolaire 
> wrote:
>
>> Exactly. The "official name " property always has the name in the
>> original script. But we can and should have the transliteration in a
>> qualifier.
>>
>> Joe
>> On 30 Apr 2015 06:13, "Gerard Meijssen" 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Hoi,
>>> We transliterate every name from one script to the other.
>>> Transliteration the official name is exactly the one you should not
>>> transliterate.. What is left after transliteration is not official.
>>> Thanks,
>>>   GerardM
>>>
>>> On 29 April 2015 at 18:54, Thomas Douillard <
>>> thomas.douill...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
 It's always possible to transliterate the official name
 property. Of course
 this should be done by a gadget, or we may have to find a special 
 treatment
 for the ''name'' properties.

 2015-04-28 23:06 GMT+02:00 Joe Filceolaire :

> I agree up to a point. Transliteration is not appropriate for
> labels for all items.  There are however a few categories of items for
> which transliterated labels are appropriate. For example :
> * English labels for villages and towns
> * English labels for people
> *English labels for bands and albums
> I'm sure there are  others that could use this too.
>
> Joe
> On 27 Apr 2015 18:09, "Leon Liesener" 
> wrote:
>
>> The problem with ISO is that it's a standard for
>> language-independent
>> transliteration to Latin script. Since labels on Wikidata are
>> language-dependent, making use of ISO does not make sense really.
>> If
>> you use ISO for Russian names in Cyrillic script, the label you
>> get is
>> not in English. It's still in Russian but transliterated to Latin
>> script. ISO thus would only fit as an alias for the Russian
>> interface
>> language, if at all.
>>
>> 2015-04-26 22:39 GMT+02:00 Gerard Meijssen <
>> gerard.meijs...@gmail.com>:
>> > Hoi,
>> >  ISO is a reliable source; it is THE standard 
>> Wikipedia is
>> > definitely not a standard by its own admission.
>> > Thanks,
>> > GerardM
>> >
>> > On 26 April 2015 at 22:37, Yaroslav M. Blanter <
>> pute...@mccme.ru> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> On 2015-04-26 22:33, Gerard Meijssen wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>> Hoi
>> >>> My point is that it is not a given that we should follow any
>> WIkipedia
>> >>> for anything. Also the point of romanisation of Russian is
>> not for the
>> >>> benefit of Russian speakers, it is for the speakers of
>> English.
>> >>> Thanks,
>> >>>   GerardM
>> >>>
>> >>
>>

Re: [Wikidata-l] Auto-transliteration of names of humans

[Gerard Meijssen]

Hoi,
A name in a script that does not make sense to you is a standard to what?
Do not put yourself at the centre of the galaxy... It is a few years ago,
that it was proven earth did not centre the sun and the sun is only a spec
in our galaxy.
Thanks,
 GerardM

On 1 May 2015 at 11:00, Thomas Douillard  wrote:

> An official name in an alphabet I don't understand does not give me any
> useful information, not even an idea of how it is said.
>
> It may be the only information we have for sur of some item. I say it's a
> good idea to give the official name in the original language together with
> a transliteration in the user language. I don't understand how it could be
> a bad idea.
>
> 2015-05-01 7:14 GMT+02:00 Gerard Meijssen :
>
>> Hoi,
>> It is still a bad idea. An official name exists only in one language.
>> Thanks,
>>  GerardM
>>
>> On 30 April 2015 at 18:50, Thomas Douillard 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> I meant "add automatically the transliteration", not replace the name.
>>>
>>> This is a good candidate : we know for sure the source and the target
>>> language (the one of the user) so a good choice for transliteration method
>>> is always possible, and we don't pretend it should be the way to say orally
>>> the name in the target language. It's just a transliteration of the
>>> official name.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 2015-04-30 15:14 GMT+02:00 Gerard Meijssen :
>>>
 Hoi,
 It does not quality anything. It is plain wrong.
 Thanks,
  GerardM

 On 30 April 2015 at 15:06, Joe Filceolaire 
 wrote:

> Exactly. The "official name " property always has the name in the
> original script. But we can and should have the transliteration in a
> qualifier.
>
> Joe
> On 30 Apr 2015 06:13, "Gerard Meijssen" 
> wrote:
>
>> Hoi,
>> We transliterate every name from one script to the other.
>> Transliteration the official name is exactly the one you should not
>> transliterate.. What is left after transliteration is not official.
>> Thanks,
>>   GerardM
>>
>> On 29 April 2015 at 18:54, Thomas Douillard <
>> thomas.douill...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> It's always possible to transliterate the official name
>>> property. Of course
>>> this should be done by a gadget, or we may have to find a special 
>>> treatment
>>> for the ''name'' properties.
>>>
>>> 2015-04-28 23:06 GMT+02:00 Joe Filceolaire :
>>>
 I agree up to a point. Transliteration is not appropriate for
 labels for all items.  There are however a few categories of items for
 which transliterated labels are appropriate. For example :
 * English labels for villages and towns
 * English labels for people
 *English labels for bands and albums
 I'm sure there are  others that could use this too.

 Joe
 On 27 Apr 2015 18:09, "Leon Liesener" 
 wrote:

> The problem with ISO is that it's a standard for
> language-independent
> transliteration to Latin script. Since labels on Wikidata are
> language-dependent, making use of ISO does not make sense really.
> If
> you use ISO for Russian names in Cyrillic script, the label you
> get is
> not in English. It's still in Russian but transliterated to Latin
> script. ISO thus would only fit as an alias for the Russian
> interface
> language, if at all.
>
> 2015-04-26 22:39 GMT+02:00 Gerard Meijssen <
> gerard.meijs...@gmail.com>:
> > Hoi,
> >  ISO is a reliable source; it is THE standard 
> Wikipedia is
> > definitely not a standard by its own admission.
> > Thanks,
> > GerardM
> >
> > On 26 April 2015 at 22:37, Yaroslav M. Blanter 
> wrote:
> >>
> >> On 2015-04-26 22:33, Gerard Meijssen wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Hoi
> >>> My point is that it is not a given that we should follow any
> WIkipedia
> >>> for anything. Also the point of romanisation of Russian is not
> for the
> >>> benefit of Russian speakers, it is for the speakers of English.
> >>> Thanks,
> >>>   GerardM
> >>>
> >>
> >> On one hand, yes.
> >>
> >> On the other hand, no reliable source uses ISO. When NYT writes
> about a
> >> Russian person, they do not use ISO, they use what the English
> Wikipedia
> >> uses or smth similar. In my passport, they do not use ISO
> (fortunately), why
> >> should then ISO be used on Wikidata in an entry about me?
> >>
> >>
> >> Cheers
> >> Yaroslav
> >>
> >> ___
> >> Wikidata-l mailing list
> >> Wikidata-

Re: [Wikidata-l] Auto-transliteration of names of humans

[Thomas Douillard]

An official name in an alphabet I don't understand does not give me any
useful information, not even an idea of how it is said.

It may be the only information we have for sur of some item. I say it's a
good idea to give the official name in the original language together with
a transliteration in the user language. I don't understand how it could be
a bad idea.

2015-05-01 7:14 GMT+02:00 Gerard Meijssen :

> Hoi,
> It is still a bad idea. An official name exists only in one language.
> Thanks,
>  GerardM
>
> On 30 April 2015 at 18:50, Thomas Douillard 
> wrote:
>
>> I meant "add automatically the transliteration", not replace the name.
>>
>> This is a good candidate : we know for sure the source and the target
>> language (the one of the user) so a good choice for transliteration method
>> is always possible, and we don't pretend it should be the way to say orally
>> the name in the target language. It's just a transliteration of the
>> official name.
>>
>>
>>
>> 2015-04-30 15:14 GMT+02:00 Gerard Meijssen :
>>
>>> Hoi,
>>> It does not quality anything. It is plain wrong.
>>> Thanks,
>>>  GerardM
>>>
>>> On 30 April 2015 at 15:06, Joe Filceolaire 
>>> wrote:
>>>
 Exactly. The "official name " property always has the name in the
 original script. But we can and should have the transliteration in a
 qualifier.

 Joe
 On 30 Apr 2015 06:13, "Gerard Meijssen" 
 wrote:

> Hoi,
> We transliterate every name from one script to the other.
> Transliteration the official name is exactly the one you should not
> transliterate.. What is left after transliteration is not official.
> Thanks,
>   GerardM
>
> On 29 April 2015 at 18:54, Thomas Douillard <
> thomas.douill...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> It's always possible to transliterate the official name
>> property. Of course
>> this should be done by a gadget, or we may have to find a special 
>> treatment
>> for the ''name'' properties.
>>
>> 2015-04-28 23:06 GMT+02:00 Joe Filceolaire :
>>
>>> I agree up to a point. Transliteration is not appropriate for labels
>>> for all items.  There are however a few categories of items for which
>>> transliterated labels are appropriate. For example :
>>> * English labels for villages and towns
>>> * English labels for people
>>> *English labels for bands and albums
>>> I'm sure there are  others that could use this too.
>>>
>>> Joe
>>> On 27 Apr 2015 18:09, "Leon Liesener" 
>>> wrote:
>>>
 The problem with ISO is that it's a standard for
 language-independent
 transliteration to Latin script. Since labels on Wikidata are
 language-dependent, making use of ISO does not make sense really. If
 you use ISO for Russian names in Cyrillic script, the label you get
 is
 not in English. It's still in Russian but transliterated to Latin
 script. ISO thus would only fit as an alias for the Russian
 interface
 language, if at all.

 2015-04-26 22:39 GMT+02:00 Gerard Meijssen <
 gerard.meijs...@gmail.com>:
 > Hoi,
 >  ISO is a reliable source; it is THE standard 
 Wikipedia is
 > definitely not a standard by its own admission.
 > Thanks,
 > GerardM
 >
 > On 26 April 2015 at 22:37, Yaroslav M. Blanter 
 wrote:
 >>
 >> On 2015-04-26 22:33, Gerard Meijssen wrote:
 >>>
 >>> Hoi
 >>> My point is that it is not a given that we should follow any
 WIkipedia
 >>> for anything. Also the point of romanisation of Russian is not
 for the
 >>> benefit of Russian speakers, it is for the speakers of English.
 >>> Thanks,
 >>>   GerardM
 >>>
 >>
 >> On one hand, yes.
 >>
 >> On the other hand, no reliable source uses ISO. When NYT writes
 about a
 >> Russian person, they do not use ISO, they use what the English
 Wikipedia
 >> uses or smth similar. In my passport, they do not use ISO
 (fortunately), why
 >> should then ISO be used on Wikidata in an entry about me?
 >>
 >>
 >> Cheers
 >> Yaroslav
 >>
 >> ___
 >> Wikidata-l mailing list
 >> Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org
 >> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
 >
 >
 >
 > ___
 > Wikidata-l mailing list
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 > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
 >

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Re: [Wikidata-l] Auto-transliteration of names of humans

[Gerard Meijssen]

Hoi,
It is still a bad idea. An official name exists only in one language.
Thanks,
 GerardM

On 30 April 2015 at 18:50, Thomas Douillard 
wrote:

> I meant "add automatically the transliteration", not replace the name.
>
> This is a good candidate : we know for sure the source and the target
> language (the one of the user) so a good choice for transliteration method
> is always possible, and we don't pretend it should be the way to say orally
> the name in the target language. It's just a transliteration of the
> official name.
>
>
>
> 2015-04-30 15:14 GMT+02:00 Gerard Meijssen :
>
>> Hoi,
>> It does not quality anything. It is plain wrong.
>> Thanks,
>>  GerardM
>>
>> On 30 April 2015 at 15:06, Joe Filceolaire  wrote:
>>
>>> Exactly. The "official name " property always has the name in the
>>> original script. But we can and should have the transliteration in a
>>> qualifier.
>>>
>>> Joe
>>> On 30 Apr 2015 06:13, "Gerard Meijssen" 
>>> wrote:
>>>
 Hoi,
 We transliterate every name from one script to the other.
 Transliteration the official name is exactly the one you should not
 transliterate.. What is left after transliteration is not official.
 Thanks,
   GerardM

 On 29 April 2015 at 18:54, Thomas Douillard >>> > wrote:

> It's always possible to transliterate the official name
> property. Of course
> this should be done by a gadget, or we may have to find a special 
> treatment
> for the ''name'' properties.
>
> 2015-04-28 23:06 GMT+02:00 Joe Filceolaire :
>
>> I agree up to a point. Transliteration is not appropriate for labels
>> for all items.  There are however a few categories of items for which
>> transliterated labels are appropriate. For example :
>> * English labels for villages and towns
>> * English labels for people
>> *English labels for bands and albums
>> I'm sure there are  others that could use this too.
>>
>> Joe
>> On 27 Apr 2015 18:09, "Leon Liesener" 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> The problem with ISO is that it's a standard for language-independent
>>> transliteration to Latin script. Since labels on Wikidata are
>>> language-dependent, making use of ISO does not make sense really. If
>>> you use ISO for Russian names in Cyrillic script, the label you get
>>> is
>>> not in English. It's still in Russian but transliterated to Latin
>>> script. ISO thus would only fit as an alias for the Russian interface
>>> language, if at all.
>>>
>>> 2015-04-26 22:39 GMT+02:00 Gerard Meijssen <
>>> gerard.meijs...@gmail.com>:
>>> > Hoi,
>>> >  ISO is a reliable source; it is THE standard 
>>> Wikipedia is
>>> > definitely not a standard by its own admission.
>>> > Thanks,
>>> > GerardM
>>> >
>>> > On 26 April 2015 at 22:37, Yaroslav M. Blanter 
>>> wrote:
>>> >>
>>> >> On 2015-04-26 22:33, Gerard Meijssen wrote:
>>> >>>
>>> >>> Hoi
>>> >>> My point is that it is not a given that we should follow any
>>> WIkipedia
>>> >>> for anything. Also the point of romanisation of Russian is not
>>> for the
>>> >>> benefit of Russian speakers, it is for the speakers of English.
>>> >>> Thanks,
>>> >>>   GerardM
>>> >>>
>>> >>
>>> >> On one hand, yes.
>>> >>
>>> >> On the other hand, no reliable source uses ISO. When NYT writes
>>> about a
>>> >> Russian person, they do not use ISO, they use what the English
>>> Wikipedia
>>> >> uses or smth similar. In my passport, they do not use ISO
>>> (fortunately), why
>>> >> should then ISO be used on Wikidata in an entry about me?
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> Cheers
>>> >> Yaroslav
>>> >>
>>> >> ___
>>> >> Wikidata-l mailing list
>>> >> Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>>> >> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > ___
>>> > Wikidata-l mailing list
>>> > Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>>> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
>>> >
>>>
>>> ___
>>> Wikidata-l mailing list
>>> Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
>>>
>>
>> ___
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>> Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
>>
>>
>
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Re: [Wikidata-l] Auto-transliteration of names of humans

[Thomas Douillard]

I meant "add automatically the transliteration", not replace the name.

This is a good candidate : we know for sure the source and the target
language (the one of the user) so a good choice for transliteration method
is always possible, and we don't pretend it should be the way to say orally
the name in the target language. It's just a transliteration of the
official name.



2015-04-30 15:14 GMT+02:00 Gerard Meijssen :

> Hoi,
> It does not quality anything. It is plain wrong.
> Thanks,
>  GerardM
>
> On 30 April 2015 at 15:06, Joe Filceolaire  wrote:
>
>> Exactly. The "official name " property always has the name in the
>> original script. But we can and should have the transliteration in a
>> qualifier.
>>
>> Joe
>> On 30 Apr 2015 06:13, "Gerard Meijssen" 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Hoi,
>>> We transliterate every name from one script to the other.
>>> Transliteration the official name is exactly the one you should not
>>> transliterate.. What is left after transliteration is not official.
>>> Thanks,
>>>   GerardM
>>>
>>> On 29 April 2015 at 18:54, Thomas Douillard 
>>> wrote:
>>>
 It's always possible to transliterate the official name
 property. Of course this
 should be done by a gadget, or we may have to find a special treatment for
 the ''name'' properties.

 2015-04-28 23:06 GMT+02:00 Joe Filceolaire :

> I agree up to a point. Transliteration is not appropriate for labels
> for all items.  There are however a few categories of items for which
> transliterated labels are appropriate. For example :
> * English labels for villages and towns
> * English labels for people
> *English labels for bands and albums
> I'm sure there are  others that could use this too.
>
> Joe
> On 27 Apr 2015 18:09, "Leon Liesener" 
> wrote:
>
>> The problem with ISO is that it's a standard for language-independent
>> transliteration to Latin script. Since labels on Wikidata are
>> language-dependent, making use of ISO does not make sense really. If
>> you use ISO for Russian names in Cyrillic script, the label you get is
>> not in English. It's still in Russian but transliterated to Latin
>> script. ISO thus would only fit as an alias for the Russian interface
>> language, if at all.
>>
>> 2015-04-26 22:39 GMT+02:00 Gerard Meijssen > >:
>> > Hoi,
>> >  ISO is a reliable source; it is THE standard 
>> Wikipedia is
>> > definitely not a standard by its own admission.
>> > Thanks,
>> > GerardM
>> >
>> > On 26 April 2015 at 22:37, Yaroslav M. Blanter 
>> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> On 2015-04-26 22:33, Gerard Meijssen wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>> Hoi
>> >>> My point is that it is not a given that we should follow any
>> WIkipedia
>> >>> for anything. Also the point of romanisation of Russian is not
>> for the
>> >>> benefit of Russian speakers, it is for the speakers of English.
>> >>> Thanks,
>> >>>   GerardM
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >> On one hand, yes.
>> >>
>> >> On the other hand, no reliable source uses ISO. When NYT writes
>> about a
>> >> Russian person, they do not use ISO, they use what the English
>> Wikipedia
>> >> uses or smth similar. In my passport, they do not use ISO
>> (fortunately), why
>> >> should then ISO be used on Wikidata in an entry about me?
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Cheers
>> >> Yaroslav
>> >>
>> >> ___
>> >> Wikidata-l mailing list
>> >> Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>> >> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > ___
>> > Wikidata-l mailing list
>> > Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
>> >
>>
>> ___
>> Wikidata-l mailing list
>> Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
>>
>
> ___
> Wikidata-l mailing list
> Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
>
>

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>>>
>>> ___
>>> Wikidata-l mailing list
>>> Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
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>>>
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>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
>>
>>
>
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Re: [Wikidata-l] Auto-transliteration of names of humans

[Gerard Meijssen]

Hoi,
It does not quality anything. It is plain wrong.
Thanks,
 GerardM

On 30 April 2015 at 15:06, Joe Filceolaire  wrote:

> Exactly. The "official name " property always has the name in the original
> script. But we can and should have the transliteration in a qualifier.
>
> Joe
> On 30 Apr 2015 06:13, "Gerard Meijssen"  wrote:
>
>> Hoi,
>> We transliterate every name from one script to the other. Transliteration
>> the official name is exactly the one you should not transliterate.. What is
>> left after transliteration is not official.
>> Thanks,
>>   GerardM
>>
>> On 29 April 2015 at 18:54, Thomas Douillard 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> It's always possible to transliterate the official name
>>> property. Of course this
>>> should be done by a gadget, or we may have to find a special treatment for
>>> the ''name'' properties.
>>>
>>> 2015-04-28 23:06 GMT+02:00 Joe Filceolaire :
>>>
 I agree up to a point. Transliteration is not appropriate for labels
 for all items.  There are however a few categories of items for which
 transliterated labels are appropriate. For example :
 * English labels for villages and towns
 * English labels for people
 *English labels for bands and albums
 I'm sure there are  others that could use this too.

 Joe
 On 27 Apr 2015 18:09, "Leon Liesener" 
 wrote:

> The problem with ISO is that it's a standard for language-independent
> transliteration to Latin script. Since labels on Wikidata are
> language-dependent, making use of ISO does not make sense really. If
> you use ISO for Russian names in Cyrillic script, the label you get is
> not in English. It's still in Russian but transliterated to Latin
> script. ISO thus would only fit as an alias for the Russian interface
> language, if at all.
>
> 2015-04-26 22:39 GMT+02:00 Gerard Meijssen  >:
> > Hoi,
> >  ISO is a reliable source; it is THE standard 
> Wikipedia is
> > definitely not a standard by its own admission.
> > Thanks,
> > GerardM
> >
> > On 26 April 2015 at 22:37, Yaroslav M. Blanter 
> wrote:
> >>
> >> On 2015-04-26 22:33, Gerard Meijssen wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Hoi
> >>> My point is that it is not a given that we should follow any
> WIkipedia
> >>> for anything. Also the point of romanisation of Russian is not for
> the
> >>> benefit of Russian speakers, it is for the speakers of English.
> >>> Thanks,
> >>>   GerardM
> >>>
> >>
> >> On one hand, yes.
> >>
> >> On the other hand, no reliable source uses ISO. When NYT writes
> about a
> >> Russian person, they do not use ISO, they use what the English
> Wikipedia
> >> uses or smth similar. In my passport, they do not use ISO
> (fortunately), why
> >> should then ISO be used on Wikidata in an entry about me?
> >>
> >>
> >> Cheers
> >> Yaroslav
> >>
> >> ___
> >> Wikidata-l mailing list
> >> Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> >> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
> >
> >
> >
> > ___
> > Wikidata-l mailing list
> > Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
> >
>
> ___
> Wikidata-l mailing list
> Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
>

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>>>
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>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
>>>
>>>
>>
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>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
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>>
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Re: [Wikidata-l] Auto-transliteration of names of humans

[Joe Filceolaire]

Exactly. The "official name " property always has the name in the original
script. But we can and should have the transliteration in a qualifier.

Joe
On 30 Apr 2015 06:13, "Gerard Meijssen"  wrote:

> Hoi,
> We transliterate every name from one script to the other. Transliteration
> the official name is exactly the one you should not transliterate.. What is
> left after transliteration is not official.
> Thanks,
>   GerardM
>
> On 29 April 2015 at 18:54, Thomas Douillard 
> wrote:
>
>> It's always possible to transliterate the official name
>> property. Of course this
>> should be done by a gadget, or we may have to find a special treatment for
>> the ''name'' properties.
>>
>> 2015-04-28 23:06 GMT+02:00 Joe Filceolaire :
>>
>>> I agree up to a point. Transliteration is not appropriate for labels for
>>> all items.  There are however a few categories of items for which
>>> transliterated labels are appropriate. For example :
>>> * English labels for villages and towns
>>> * English labels for people
>>> *English labels for bands and albums
>>> I'm sure there are  others that could use this too.
>>>
>>> Joe
>>> On 27 Apr 2015 18:09, "Leon Liesener" 
>>> wrote:
>>>
 The problem with ISO is that it's a standard for language-independent
 transliteration to Latin script. Since labels on Wikidata are
 language-dependent, making use of ISO does not make sense really. If
 you use ISO for Russian names in Cyrillic script, the label you get is
 not in English. It's still in Russian but transliterated to Latin
 script. ISO thus would only fit as an alias for the Russian interface
 language, if at all.

 2015-04-26 22:39 GMT+02:00 Gerard Meijssen :
 > Hoi,
 >  ISO is a reliable source; it is THE standard  Wikipedia
 is
 > definitely not a standard by its own admission.
 > Thanks,
 > GerardM
 >
 > On 26 April 2015 at 22:37, Yaroslav M. Blanter 
 wrote:
 >>
 >> On 2015-04-26 22:33, Gerard Meijssen wrote:
 >>>
 >>> Hoi
 >>> My point is that it is not a given that we should follow any
 WIkipedia
 >>> for anything. Also the point of romanisation of Russian is not for
 the
 >>> benefit of Russian speakers, it is for the speakers of English.
 >>> Thanks,
 >>>   GerardM
 >>>
 >>
 >> On one hand, yes.
 >>
 >> On the other hand, no reliable source uses ISO. When NYT writes
 about a
 >> Russian person, they do not use ISO, they use what the English
 Wikipedia
 >> uses or smth similar. In my passport, they do not use ISO
 (fortunately), why
 >> should then ISO be used on Wikidata in an entry about me?
 >>
 >>
 >> Cheers
 >> Yaroslav
 >>
 >> ___
 >> Wikidata-l mailing list
 >> Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org
 >> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
 >
 >
 >
 > ___
 > Wikidata-l mailing list
 > Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org
 > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
 >

 ___
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 Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org
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>>>
>>> ___
>>> Wikidata-l mailing list
>>> Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
>>>
>>>
>>
>> ___
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>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
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>>
>
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Re: [Wikidata-l] Auto-transliteration of names of humans

[Gerard Meijssen]

Hoi,
We transliterate every name from one script to the other. Transliteration
the official name is exactly the one you should not transliterate.. What is
left after transliteration is not official.
Thanks,
  GerardM

On 29 April 2015 at 18:54, Thomas Douillard 
wrote:

> It's always possible to transliterate the official name
> property. Of course this
> should be done by a gadget, or we may have to find a special treatment for
> the ''name'' properties.
>
> 2015-04-28 23:06 GMT+02:00 Joe Filceolaire :
>
>> I agree up to a point. Transliteration is not appropriate for labels for
>> all items.  There are however a few categories of items for which
>> transliterated labels are appropriate. For example :
>> * English labels for villages and towns
>> * English labels for people
>> *English labels for bands and albums
>> I'm sure there are  others that could use this too.
>>
>> Joe
>> On 27 Apr 2015 18:09, "Leon Liesener"  wrote:
>>
>>> The problem with ISO is that it's a standard for language-independent
>>> transliteration to Latin script. Since labels on Wikidata are
>>> language-dependent, making use of ISO does not make sense really. If
>>> you use ISO for Russian names in Cyrillic script, the label you get is
>>> not in English. It's still in Russian but transliterated to Latin
>>> script. ISO thus would only fit as an alias for the Russian interface
>>> language, if at all.
>>>
>>> 2015-04-26 22:39 GMT+02:00 Gerard Meijssen :
>>> > Hoi,
>>> >  ISO is a reliable source; it is THE standard  Wikipedia
>>> is
>>> > definitely not a standard by its own admission.
>>> > Thanks,
>>> > GerardM
>>> >
>>> > On 26 April 2015 at 22:37, Yaroslav M. Blanter 
>>> wrote:
>>> >>
>>> >> On 2015-04-26 22:33, Gerard Meijssen wrote:
>>> >>>
>>> >>> Hoi
>>> >>> My point is that it is not a given that we should follow any
>>> WIkipedia
>>> >>> for anything. Also the point of romanisation of Russian is not for
>>> the
>>> >>> benefit of Russian speakers, it is for the speakers of English.
>>> >>> Thanks,
>>> >>>   GerardM
>>> >>>
>>> >>
>>> >> On one hand, yes.
>>> >>
>>> >> On the other hand, no reliable source uses ISO. When NYT writes about
>>> a
>>> >> Russian person, they do not use ISO, they use what the English
>>> Wikipedia
>>> >> uses or smth similar. In my passport, they do not use ISO
>>> (fortunately), why
>>> >> should then ISO be used on Wikidata in an entry about me?
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> Cheers
>>> >> Yaroslav
>>> >>
>>> >> ___
>>> >> Wikidata-l mailing list
>>> >> Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>>> >> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > ___
>>> > Wikidata-l mailing list
>>> > Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>>> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
>>> >
>>>
>>> ___
>>> Wikidata-l mailing list
>>> Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
>>>
>>
>> ___
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>> Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
>>
>>
>
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Re: [Wikidata-l] Auto-transliteration of names of humans

[Thomas Douillard]

It's always possible to transliterate the official name
property. Of course this
should be done by a gadget, or we may have to find a special treatment for
the ''name'' properties.

2015-04-28 23:06 GMT+02:00 Joe Filceolaire :

> I agree up to a point. Transliteration is not appropriate for labels for
> all items.  There are however a few categories of items for which
> transliterated labels are appropriate. For example :
> * English labels for villages and towns
> * English labels for people
> *English labels for bands and albums
> I'm sure there are  others that could use this too.
>
> Joe
> On 27 Apr 2015 18:09, "Leon Liesener"  wrote:
>
>> The problem with ISO is that it's a standard for language-independent
>> transliteration to Latin script. Since labels on Wikidata are
>> language-dependent, making use of ISO does not make sense really. If
>> you use ISO for Russian names in Cyrillic script, the label you get is
>> not in English. It's still in Russian but transliterated to Latin
>> script. ISO thus would only fit as an alias for the Russian interface
>> language, if at all.
>>
>> 2015-04-26 22:39 GMT+02:00 Gerard Meijssen :
>> > Hoi,
>> >  ISO is a reliable source; it is THE standard  Wikipedia is
>> > definitely not a standard by its own admission.
>> > Thanks,
>> > GerardM
>> >
>> > On 26 April 2015 at 22:37, Yaroslav M. Blanter 
>> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> On 2015-04-26 22:33, Gerard Meijssen wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>> Hoi
>> >>> My point is that it is not a given that we should follow any WIkipedia
>> >>> for anything. Also the point of romanisation of Russian is not for the
>> >>> benefit of Russian speakers, it is for the speakers of English.
>> >>> Thanks,
>> >>>   GerardM
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >> On one hand, yes.
>> >>
>> >> On the other hand, no reliable source uses ISO. When NYT writes about a
>> >> Russian person, they do not use ISO, they use what the English
>> Wikipedia
>> >> uses or smth similar. In my passport, they do not use ISO
>> (fortunately), why
>> >> should then ISO be used on Wikidata in an entry about me?
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Cheers
>> >> Yaroslav
>> >>
>> >> ___
>> >> Wikidata-l mailing list
>> >> Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>> >> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > ___
>> > Wikidata-l mailing list
>> > Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
>> >
>>
>> ___
>> Wikidata-l mailing list
>> Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
>>
>
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Re: [Wikidata-l] Auto-transliteration of names of humans

[Joe Filceolaire]

I agree up to a point. Transliteration is not appropriate for labels for
all items.  There are however a few categories of items for which
transliterated labels are appropriate. For example :
* English labels for villages and towns
* English labels for people
*English labels for bands and albums
I'm sure there are  others that could use this too.

Joe
On 27 Apr 2015 18:09, "Leon Liesener"  wrote:

> The problem with ISO is that it's a standard for language-independent
> transliteration to Latin script. Since labels on Wikidata are
> language-dependent, making use of ISO does not make sense really. If
> you use ISO for Russian names in Cyrillic script, the label you get is
> not in English. It's still in Russian but transliterated to Latin
> script. ISO thus would only fit as an alias for the Russian interface
> language, if at all.
>
> 2015-04-26 22:39 GMT+02:00 Gerard Meijssen :
> > Hoi,
> >  ISO is a reliable source; it is THE standard  Wikipedia is
> > definitely not a standard by its own admission.
> > Thanks,
> > GerardM
> >
> > On 26 April 2015 at 22:37, Yaroslav M. Blanter  wrote:
> >>
> >> On 2015-04-26 22:33, Gerard Meijssen wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Hoi
> >>> My point is that it is not a given that we should follow any WIkipedia
> >>> for anything. Also the point of romanisation of Russian is not for the
> >>> benefit of Russian speakers, it is for the speakers of English.
> >>> Thanks,
> >>>   GerardM
> >>>
> >>
> >> On one hand, yes.
> >>
> >> On the other hand, no reliable source uses ISO. When NYT writes about a
> >> Russian person, they do not use ISO, they use what the English Wikipedia
> >> uses or smth similar. In my passport, they do not use ISO
> (fortunately), why
> >> should then ISO be used on Wikidata in an entry about me?
> >>
> >>
> >> Cheers
> >> Yaroslav
> >>
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> >
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Re: [Wikidata-l] Auto-transliteration of names of humans

[Leon Liesener]

I understand your point. But unfortunately Dutch, French and German are rather 
bad examples. There are enough languages which would localise your name, like 
e. g. the Baltic languages Lithuanian and Latvian. Here an example from Latvian 
language Wikipedia: https://lv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerhards_Šrēders (the former 
German chancellor Gerhard Schröder)
The Dutch Gerard Meijssen would not stay Gerard Meijssen in such languages, in 
Lithuanian language you would likely be called Gerardas Meisenas or the like, 
and also labelled as such.

> Am 27.04.2015 um 22:32 schrieb Gerard Meijssen :
> 
> Hoi,
> Transliteration is exactly that. My name is Dutch, it is used written the 
> same in English, French and German. They are languages I understand (up to a 
> point) I know that my name is pronounced substantially in all of them. 
> 
> A name that is Ukrainian or Serbian could be should be transliterated 
> differently.
> Thanks,
>  GerardM
> 
>> On 27 April 2015 at 19:08, Leon Liesener  wrote:
>> The problem with ISO is that it's a standard for language-independent
>> transliteration to Latin script. Since labels on Wikidata are
>> language-dependent, making use of ISO does not make sense really. If
>> you use ISO for Russian names in Cyrillic script, the label you get is
>> not in English. It's still in Russian but transliterated to Latin
>> script. ISO thus would only fit as an alias for the Russian interface
>> language, if at all.
>> 
>> 2015-04-26 22:39 GMT+02:00 Gerard Meijssen :
>> > Hoi,
>> >  ISO is a reliable source; it is THE standard  Wikipedia is
>> > definitely not a standard by its own admission.
>> > Thanks,
>> > GerardM
>> >
>> > On 26 April 2015 at 22:37, Yaroslav M. Blanter  wrote:
>> >>
>> >> On 2015-04-26 22:33, Gerard Meijssen wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>> Hoi
>> >>> My point is that it is not a given that we should follow any WIkipedia
>> >>> for anything. Also the point of romanisation of Russian is not for the
>> >>> benefit of Russian speakers, it is for the speakers of English.
>> >>> Thanks,
>> >>>   GerardM
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >> On one hand, yes.
>> >>
>> >> On the other hand, no reliable source uses ISO. When NYT writes about a
>> >> Russian person, they do not use ISO, they use what the English Wikipedia
>> >> uses or smth similar. In my passport, they do not use ISO (fortunately), 
>> >> why
>> >> should then ISO be used on Wikidata in an entry about me?
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Cheers
>> >> Yaroslav
>> >>
>> >> ___
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>> >
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Re: [Wikidata-l] Auto-transliteration of names of humans

[Gerard Meijssen]

Hoi,
Transliteration is exactly that. My name is Dutch, it is used written the
same in English, French and German. They are languages I understand (up to
a point) I know that my name is pronounced substantially in all of them.

A name that is Ukrainian or Serbian could be should be transliterated
differently.
Thanks,
 GerardM

On 27 April 2015 at 19:08, Leon Liesener  wrote:

> The problem with ISO is that it's a standard for language-independent
> transliteration to Latin script. Since labels on Wikidata are
> language-dependent, making use of ISO does not make sense really. If
> you use ISO for Russian names in Cyrillic script, the label you get is
> not in English. It's still in Russian but transliterated to Latin
> script. ISO thus would only fit as an alias for the Russian interface
> language, if at all.
>
> 2015-04-26 22:39 GMT+02:00 Gerard Meijssen :
> > Hoi,
> >  ISO is a reliable source; it is THE standard  Wikipedia is
> > definitely not a standard by its own admission.
> > Thanks,
> > GerardM
> >
> > On 26 April 2015 at 22:37, Yaroslav M. Blanter  wrote:
> >>
> >> On 2015-04-26 22:33, Gerard Meijssen wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Hoi
> >>> My point is that it is not a given that we should follow any WIkipedia
> >>> for anything. Also the point of romanisation of Russian is not for the
> >>> benefit of Russian speakers, it is for the speakers of English.
> >>> Thanks,
> >>>   GerardM
> >>>
> >>
> >> On one hand, yes.
> >>
> >> On the other hand, no reliable source uses ISO. When NYT writes about a
> >> Russian person, they do not use ISO, they use what the English Wikipedia
> >> uses or smth similar. In my passport, they do not use ISO
> (fortunately), why
> >> should then ISO be used on Wikidata in an entry about me?
> >>
> >>
> >> Cheers
> >> Yaroslav
> >>
> >> ___
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> >> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
> >
> >
> >
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Re: [Wikidata-l] Auto-transliteration of names of humans

[Leon Liesener]

The problem with ISO is that it's a standard for language-independent
transliteration to Latin script. Since labels on Wikidata are
language-dependent, making use of ISO does not make sense really. If
you use ISO for Russian names in Cyrillic script, the label you get is
not in English. It's still in Russian but transliterated to Latin
script. ISO thus would only fit as an alias for the Russian interface
language, if at all.

2015-04-26 22:39 GMT+02:00 Gerard Meijssen :
> Hoi,
>  ISO is a reliable source; it is THE standard  Wikipedia is
> definitely not a standard by its own admission.
> Thanks,
> GerardM
>
> On 26 April 2015 at 22:37, Yaroslav M. Blanter  wrote:
>>
>> On 2015-04-26 22:33, Gerard Meijssen wrote:
>>>
>>> Hoi
>>> My point is that it is not a given that we should follow any WIkipedia
>>> for anything. Also the point of romanisation of Russian is not for the
>>> benefit of Russian speakers, it is for the speakers of English.
>>> Thanks,
>>>   GerardM
>>>
>>
>> On one hand, yes.
>>
>> On the other hand, no reliable source uses ISO. When NYT writes about a
>> Russian person, they do not use ISO, they use what the English Wikipedia
>> uses or smth similar. In my passport, they do not use ISO (fortunately), why
>> should then ISO be used on Wikidata in an entry about me?
>>
>>
>> Cheers
>> Yaroslav
>>
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>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
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>
>
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Re: [Wikidata-l] Auto-transliteration of names of humans

[Stas Malyshev]

Hi!

> use ISO standards. One of the reasons is their impartiality (in the
> meaning that they are not related to one specific language).

Wikidata labels, however, *are* related to specific language. Every
label is associated with the language.
-- 
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smalys...@wikimedia.org

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Re: [Wikidata-l] Auto-transliteration of names of humans

[Erics wikiadres]

 

To my opinion (as a newbie to Wikidata) the label field in Wikidata
should use standardized data and therefore should applaud, embrace and
use ISO standards. One of the reasons is their impartiality (in the
meaning that they are not related to one specific language).
I'm glad to find a fellow-thinker in Gerard.

best regards, Eric

Gerard Meijssen schreef op 2015-04-27 08:29: 

> Hoi, 
> There are different transliterations per language pair. 
> 
> When you include Wikidata in the mix; Wikidata should in my opinion support 
> the transliteration from Russian to English according to ISO for its label. 
> Anything else including whatever Wikipedia likes may be an alias. 
> 
> Your point about confusion is the same as with standard metrics. Napoleon did 
> us a service by moving to the metric system, It is sad that he did not 
> conquer Britain so that we are now stuck with something that confuses the 
> hell out of me when we have to deal with whatever you lot have.. 
> Thanks, 
> GerardM 
> 
> On 27 April 2015 at 07:09, Stas Malyshev  wrote:
> 
>> Hi!
>> 
>>> My point is that it is not a given that we should follow any WIkipedia
>>> for anything. Also the point of romanisation of Russian is not for the
>>> benefit of Russian speakers, it is for the speakers of English.
>> 
>> Same people may speak more than one language. And for English speakers,
>> letters like š or č are not the most familiar either. Moreover, mismatch
>> between Wikipedia and Wikidata would only confuse people - is Shchedrin
>> and Ščedrin the same last name or different one? How does one look up
>> for it? I think departing from commonly used way would just add
>> confusion and not really help people, neither experienced nor new.
>> 
>> --
>> Stas Malyshev
>> smalys...@wikimedia.org
>> 
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Re: [Wikidata-l] Auto-transliteration of names of humans

[Gerard Meijssen]

Hoi,
There are different transliterations per language pair.

When you include Wikidata in the mix; Wikidata should in my opinion support
the transliteration from Russian to English according to ISO for its label.
Anything else including whatever Wikipedia likes may be an alias.

Your point about confusion is the same as with standard metrics. Napoleon
did us a service by moving to the metric system, It is sad that he did not
conquer Britain so that we are now stuck with something that confuses the
hell out of me when we have to deal with whatever you lot have..
Thanks,
 GerardM


On 27 April 2015 at 07:09, Stas Malyshev  wrote:

> Hi!
>
> > My point is that it is not a given that we should follow any WIkipedia
> > for anything. Also the point of romanisation of Russian is not for the
> > benefit of Russian speakers, it is for the speakers of English.
>
> Same people may speak more than one language. And for English speakers,
> letters like š or č are not the most familiar either. Moreover, mismatch
> between Wikipedia and Wikidata would only confuse people - is Shchedrin
> and Ščedrin the same last name or different one? How does one look up
> for it? I think departing from commonly used way would just add
> confusion and not really help people, neither experienced nor new.
>
> --
> Stas Malyshev
> smalys...@wikimedia.org
>
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Re: [Wikidata-l] Auto-transliteration of names of humans

[Stas Malyshev]

Hi!

>  ISO is a reliable source; it is THE standard  Wikipedia is
> definitely not a standard by its own admission.

No, it's *a* standard (or, rather, two of them). There are 11 of them
overall listed just on Wiki, and there might be more too. And of those,
ISO not the most commonly used and looks alien to both Russian and
English speakers, why insist on it?
-- 
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smalys...@wikimedia.org

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Re: [Wikidata-l] Auto-transliteration of names of humans

[Stas Malyshev]

Hi!

> My point is that it is not a given that we should follow any WIkipedia
> for anything. Also the point of romanisation of Russian is not for the
> benefit of Russian speakers, it is for the speakers of English.

Same people may speak more than one language. And for English speakers,
letters like š or č are not the most familiar either. Moreover, mismatch
between Wikipedia and Wikidata would only confuse people - is Shchedrin
and Ščedrin the same last name or different one? How does one look up
for it? I think departing from commonly used way would just add
confusion and not really help people, neither experienced nor new.

-- 
Stas Malyshev
smalys...@wikimedia.org

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Re: [Wikidata-l] Auto-transliteration of names of humans

[Gerard Meijssen]

Hoi,
A fine position statement ... but what is your argument ? WHY
Thanks,
 GerardM

On 26 April 2015 at 23:15, Joe Filceolaire  wrote:

> When we use auto transliteration to generate English labels then I think
> we should follow the practice of the English Wikipedia with other
> transliterations demoted to aliases.
>
> Similarly auto generated German labels should follow the transliteration
> practices in the German wikipedia.
>
> When we use an auto transliteration bot to generate qualifier statements
> with transliteration of values in "birth name" statements (and other name
> statements ) then we just need a separate property for each transliteration
> scheme and make sure the bot uses the appropriate property for each
> qualifier statement. We can have lots of transliteration qualifier
> statements for each value  (plus statements for IPA and for a pronunciation
> recording ).
>
> Joe
> On 26 Apr 2015 21:40, "Gerard Meijssen"  wrote:
>
>> Hoi,
>>  ISO is a reliable source; it is THE standard  Wikipedia is
>> definitely not a standard by its own admission.
>> Thanks,
>> GerardM
>>
>> On 26 April 2015 at 22:37, Yaroslav M. Blanter  wrote:
>>
>>> On 2015-04-26 22:33, Gerard Meijssen wrote:
>>>
 Hoi
 My point is that it is not a given that we should follow any WIkipedia
 for anything. Also the point of romanisation of Russian is not for the
 benefit of Russian speakers, it is for the speakers of English.
 Thanks,
   GerardM


>>> On one hand, yes.
>>>
>>> On the other hand, no reliable source uses ISO. When NYT writes about a
>>> Russian person, they do not use ISO, they use what the English Wikipedia
>>> uses or smth similar. In my passport, they do not use ISO (fortunately),
>>> why should then ISO be used on Wikidata in an entry about me?
>>>
>>>
>>> Cheers
>>> Yaroslav
>>>
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>>
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Re: [Wikidata-l] Auto-transliteration of names of humans

[Joe Filceolaire]

When we use auto transliteration to generate English labels then I think we
should follow the practice of the English Wikipedia with other
transliterations demoted to aliases.

Similarly auto generated German labels should follow the transliteration
practices in the German wikipedia.

When we use an auto transliteration bot to generate qualifier statements
with transliteration of values in "birth name" statements (and other name
statements ) then we just need a separate property for each transliteration
scheme and make sure the bot uses the appropriate property for each
qualifier statement. We can have lots of transliteration qualifier
statements for each value  (plus statements for IPA and for a pronunciation
recording ).

Joe
On 26 Apr 2015 21:40, "Gerard Meijssen"  wrote:

> Hoi,
>  ISO is a reliable source; it is THE standard  Wikipedia is
> definitely not a standard by its own admission.
> Thanks,
> GerardM
>
> On 26 April 2015 at 22:37, Yaroslav M. Blanter  wrote:
>
>> On 2015-04-26 22:33, Gerard Meijssen wrote:
>>
>>> Hoi
>>> My point is that it is not a given that we should follow any WIkipedia
>>> for anything. Also the point of romanisation of Russian is not for the
>>> benefit of Russian speakers, it is for the speakers of English.
>>> Thanks,
>>>   GerardM
>>>
>>>
>> On one hand, yes.
>>
>> On the other hand, no reliable source uses ISO. When NYT writes about a
>> Russian person, they do not use ISO, they use what the English Wikipedia
>> uses or smth similar. In my passport, they do not use ISO (fortunately),
>> why should then ISO be used on Wikidata in an entry about me?
>>
>>
>> Cheers
>> Yaroslav
>>
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Re: [Wikidata-l] Auto-transliteration of names of humans

[Gerard Meijssen]

Hoi,
 ISO is a reliable source; it is THE standard  Wikipedia is
definitely not a standard by its own admission.
Thanks,
GerardM

On 26 April 2015 at 22:37, Yaroslav M. Blanter  wrote:

> On 2015-04-26 22:33, Gerard Meijssen wrote:
>
>> Hoi
>> My point is that it is not a given that we should follow any WIkipedia
>> for anything. Also the point of romanisation of Russian is not for the
>> benefit of Russian speakers, it is for the speakers of English.
>> Thanks,
>>   GerardM
>>
>>
> On one hand, yes.
>
> On the other hand, no reliable source uses ISO. When NYT writes about a
> Russian person, they do not use ISO, they use what the English Wikipedia
> uses or smth similar. In my passport, they do not use ISO (fortunately),
> why should then ISO be used on Wikidata in an entry about me?
>
>
> Cheers
> Yaroslav
>
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Re: [Wikidata-l] Auto-transliteration of names of humans

[Yaroslav M. Blanter]

On 2015-04-26 22:33, Gerard Meijssen wrote:

Hoi
My point is that it is not a given that we should follow any WIkipedia
for anything. Also the point of romanisation of Russian is not for the
benefit of Russian speakers, it is for the speakers of English.
Thanks,
  GerardM



On one hand, yes.

On the other hand, no reliable source uses ISO. When NYT writes about a 
Russian person, they do not use ISO, they use what the English Wikipedia 
uses or smth similar. In my passport, they do not use ISO (fortunately), 
why should then ISO be used on Wikidata in an entry about me?


Cheers
Yaroslav

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Re: [Wikidata-l] Auto-transliteration of names of humans

[Gerard Meijssen]

Hoi
My point is that it is not a given that we should follow any WIkipedia for
anything. Also the point of romanisation of Russian is not for the benefit
of Russian speakers, it is for the speakers of English.
Thanks,
  GerardM

On 26 April 2015 at 22:30, Yaroslav M. Blanter  wrote:

> On 2015-04-26 22:26, Gerard Meijssen wrote:
>
>> Hoi,
>> Let us be clear that what whatever Wikipedia does is for that
>> Wikipedia to decide. It does not follow automatically that it must be
>> the label for that language..
>> Thanks,
>>  GerardM
>>
>>
> This is fine with me, but using ISO is really really weird for any Russian
> speaker. And I would like to see any reason why a romanization chosen for
> English labels on Wikidata should be deliberately different from English
> Wikipedia.
>
>
> Cheers
> Yaroslav
>
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Re: [Wikidata-l] Auto-transliteration of names of humans

[Yaroslav M. Blanter]

On 2015-04-26 22:26, Gerard Meijssen wrote:

Hoi,
Let us be clear that what whatever Wikipedia does is for that
Wikipedia to decide. It does not follow automatically that it must be
the label for that language..
Thanks,
 GerardM



This is fine with me, but using ISO is really really weird for any 
Russian speaker. And I would like to see any reason why a romanization 
chosen for English labels on Wikidata should be deliberately different 
from English Wikipedia.


Cheers
Yaroslav

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Re: [Wikidata-l] Auto-transliteration of names of humans

[Gerard Meijssen]

Hoi,
Let us be clear that what whatever Wikipedia does is for that Wikipedia to
decide. It does not follow automatically that it must be the label for that
language..
Thanks,
 GerardM

On 26 April 2015 at 14:22, Yaroslav M. Blanter  wrote:

> On 2015-04-23 01:21, Stas Malyshev wrote:
>
>> Hi!
>>
>>  Careful, this is one of the most debated and dramatic style issues after
>>> citation format!
>>> Actual transliteration should clearly follow scientific/ISO standards
>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_transliteration_of_Cyrillic .
>>>
>>
>> Well, "scientific/ISO standards" is in this case at least three
>> different standards, and 11 standards if you include commonly used ones
>> :) E.g. see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romanization_of_Russian
>>
>>  However the labels and aliases are in languages like "it" and "fr", so
>>> they're supposedly translations rather than mere transliterations. This
>>> makes things more complex.
>>>
>>
>> Yes. I see that the bot is setting language labels for entities, so for
>> this both language-specific transliterations and common usage can be
>> important. Which for Russian for example can be quite crazy,
>> https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q187349's last name is "Ватсон" but
>> https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q1187613's is "Уотсон". And I have no idea
>> what is the correct romanization of
>> https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q4105300's name.
>>
>
> This is what we commonly use at the English Wikipedia for romanization of
> Russian:
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Romanization_of_Russian
>
> It was already noted that the Russian Wikipedia uses the reverse order for
> names (Dostoyevsky, Fyodor Mikhaylovich), whereas there is no reason to use
> this order on Wikidata. The reasonable options should be either "Fyodor
> Dostoyevsky" or (less preferable to me) "Fyodor Mikhaylovich Dostoyevsky".
>
> Cheers
> Yaroslav
>
>
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Re: [Wikidata-l] Auto-transliteration of names of humans

[Yaroslav M. Blanter]

On 2015-04-23 01:21, Stas Malyshev wrote:

Hi!

Careful, this is one of the most debated and dramatic style issues 
after

citation format!
Actual transliteration should clearly follow scientific/ISO standards
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_transliteration_of_Cyrillic .


Well, "scientific/ISO standards" is in this case at least three
different standards, and 11 standards if you include commonly used ones
:) E.g. see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romanization_of_Russian


However the labels and aliases are in languages like "it" and "fr", so
they're supposedly translations rather than mere transliterations. 
This

makes things more complex.


Yes. I see that the bot is setting language labels for entities, so for
this both language-specific transliterations and common usage can be
important. Which for Russian for example can be quite crazy,
https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q187349's last name is "Ватсон" but
https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q1187613's is "Уотсон". And I have no 
idea

what is the correct romanization of
https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q4105300's name.


This is what we commonly use at the English Wikipedia for romanization 
of Russian:


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Romanization_of_Russian

It was already noted that the Russian Wikipedia uses the reverse order 
for names (Dostoyevsky, Fyodor Mikhaylovich), whereas there is no reason 
to use this order on Wikidata. The reasonable options should be either 
"Fyodor Dostoyevsky" or (less preferable to me) "Fyodor Mikhaylovich 
Dostoyevsky".


Cheers
Yaroslav

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Re: [Wikidata-l] Auto-transliteration of names of humans

[Yusuke Matsubara]

On Thu, Apr 23, 2015 at 8:57 PM, Amir Ladsgroup  wrote:

> It uses an algorithm to cluster words not
> letters since it's useless (lots of languages like Persian has the same
> situation as Japanese) so we don't need to deal with complicated rules of
> transliteration directly, the bot automatically follows them and chooses the
> most frequent result.

It sounds like I had a wrong assumption, sorry about that. Could you
describe the algorithm a little bit more in detail, perhaps add it to
the bot request page? Does it remember all pairs of words used in
person names in two languages (on Wikidata), and combine them to
transliterate a name newly given to it? Does it use more sophisticated
tools like statistical machine translation?

By the way, I can confirm that "・" is a commonly used separator in
Japanese for foreign person names. Another (less frequent) one is "＝".

Yusuke

On Thu, Apr 23, 2015 at 8:57 PM, Amir Ladsgroup  wrote:
>
>
> On Thu, Apr 23, 2015 at 1:41 PM, Yusuke Matsubara  wrote:
>>
>> Hi Amir,
>>
>> You might want to drop Japanese at least for now, because it's
>> complicated. Between any language and Japanese, there is no single
>> standard to follow as far as I know. In fact, choosing the best way to
>> write the name (and thus the page name) is one of the most frequent
>> types of disputes about foreign BLPs on Japanese Wikipedia. There are
>> always multiple possible transliterations for each syllable (it's
>> usually phonetic, not letter-to-letter, transliteration), and a random
>> choice will probably not the best one. For instance, "Amir" can be
>> "アミール", "アーミール" or "アーミル".
>>
>> That said, one possible approach might be to generate, for each name,
>> all possible transliterations using a set of rules, and google them to
>> see which is the most common one (and has at least some uses on the
>> web). It would probably be safer to add the name in the source
>> language into the query, and reject any candidate that gets less than,
>> say, 100 hits, because some small number of hits might be just noise.
>>
> This is not how the bot words, It uses an algorithm to cluster words not
> letters since it's useless (lots of languages like Persian has the same
> situation as Japanese) so we don't need to deal with complicated rules of
> transliteration directly, the bot automatically follows them and chooses the
> most frequent result.
>
> I will make 100 edits and you check and tell if it's wrong. I started the
> bot to analyse.
>
> Best
>
>
>>
>> Best,
>> Yusuke
>>
>> On Wed, Apr 22, 2015 at 9:48 PM, Amir Ladsgroup 
>> wrote:
>> > Hello,
>> > I started bot of auto-transliterating names of humans, initially with
>> > Persian and English (as a pair) since I know both and I can debug. After
>> > some modifications, In the last check, In more than several hundreds of
>> > edits I checked, I couldn't find any errors, I want to expand this bot
>> > for
>> > other languages but before, I need opinions of people who know rules of
>> > transliterating names in these languages, I tried to realize rules and
>> > this
>> > is my result but I need someone familiar to confirm
>> > *Chinese: Instead of space it uses "·" character (it's not dot) but
>> > order is
>> > the same. e.g Alan Turing is: "艾伦·图灵" which "艾伦" means Alan and "图灵"
>> > means
>> > Turing
>> > *Japanese: it's the same but different separator: "・", e.g. "アラン・チューリング"
>> > *Russian: The separator is space character but order is like
>> > "FamilyName,
>> > GivenName" e.g. "Тьюринг, Алан" is "Turing, Alan". Handling names with
>> > more
>> > than two words would be pretty complicated (I skip them)
>> > *I checked Hebrew and Greek and both are simple languages like Persian,
>> > same
>> > order, space as separator.
>> >
>> > If you can help me, it would make a great difference in number of labels
>> > in
>> > your language. Things you can help are:
>> > 1- Confirm or correct rules of these languages and add other rules if
>> > needed.
>> > 2- Suggest more languages. I thought about Sanskrit, Hindi, and Telugu
>> > but I
>> > don't know anyone who can check the rules, if you do, please help me.
>> > 3- For any language I will do an initial run just to test, if you can
>> > check
>> > edits of the bot (which is pretty easy, e.g. see this) it would be
>> > awesome.
>> >
>> > Thanks,
>> > Best
>> >
>> > ___
>> > Wikidata-l mailing list
>> > Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
>> >
>>
>> ___
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>
>
>
>
> --
> Amir
>
>
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Re: [Wikidata-l] Auto-transliteration of names of humans

[Amir Ladsgroup]

On Thu, Apr 23, 2015 at 1:41 PM, Yusuke Matsubara  wrote:

> Hi Amir,
>
> You might want to drop Japanese at least for now, because it's
> complicated. Between any language and Japanese, there is no single
> standard to follow as far as I know. In fact, choosing the best way to
> write the name (and thus the page name) is one of the most frequent
> types of disputes about foreign BLPs on Japanese Wikipedia. There are
> always multiple possible transliterations for each syllable (it's
> usually phonetic, not letter-to-letter, transliteration), and a random
> choice will probably not the best one. For instance, "Amir" can be
> "アミール", "アーミール" or "アーミル".
>
> That said, one possible approach might be to generate, for each name,
> all possible transliterations using a set of rules, and google them to
> see which is the most common one (and has at least some uses on the
> web). It would probably be safer to add the name in the source
> language into the query, and reject any candidate that gets less than,
> say, 100 hits, because some small number of hits might be just noise.
>
> This is not how the bot words, It uses an algorithm to cluster words not
letters since it's useless (lots of languages like Persian has the same
situation as Japanese) so we don't need to deal with complicated rules of
transliteration directly, the bot automatically follows them and chooses
the most frequent result.

I will make 100 edits and you check and tell if it's wrong. I started the
bot to analyse.

Best



> Best,
> Yusuke
>
> On Wed, Apr 22, 2015 at 9:48 PM, Amir Ladsgroup 
> wrote:
> > Hello,
> > I started bot of auto-transliterating names of humans, initially with
> > Persian and English (as a pair) since I know both and I can debug. After
> > some modifications, In the last check, In more than several hundreds of
> > edits I checked, I couldn't find any errors, I want to expand this bot
> for
> > other languages but before, I need opinions of people who know rules of
> > transliterating names in these languages, I tried to realize rules and
> this
> > is my result but I need someone familiar to confirm
> > *Chinese: Instead of space it uses "·" character (it's not dot) but
> order is
> > the same. e.g Alan Turing is: "艾伦·图灵" which "艾伦" means Alan and "图灵"
> means
> > Turing
> > *Japanese: it's the same but different separator: "・", e.g. "アラン・チューリング"
> > *Russian: The separator is space character but order is like "FamilyName,
> > GivenName" e.g. "Тьюринг, Алан" is "Turing, Alan". Handling names with
> more
> > than two words would be pretty complicated (I skip them)
> > *I checked Hebrew and Greek and both are simple languages like Persian,
> same
> > order, space as separator.
> >
> > If you can help me, it would make a great difference in number of labels
> in
> > your language. Things you can help are:
> > 1- Confirm or correct rules of these languages and add other rules if
> > needed.
> > 2- Suggest more languages. I thought about Sanskrit, Hindi, and Telugu
> but I
> > don't know anyone who can check the rules, if you do, please help me.
> > 3- For any language I will do an initial run just to test, if you can
> check
> > edits of the bot (which is pretty easy, e.g. see this) it would be
> awesome.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Best
> >
> > ___
> > Wikidata-l mailing list
> > Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
> >
>
> ___
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-- 
Amir
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Re: [Wikidata-l] Auto-transliteration of names of humans

[Daniel Kinzler]

Am 23.04.2015 um 09:05 schrieb Erics wikiadres:
> Wikidata provides a possibility to enter national standards Shchedrin 
> (English),
> Sjtsjedrin (Dutch), Chtchedrin (French) and Schtschedrin (German) as aliases. 
> So
> why not use the ISO-standard as the main form?

Because there is no main form. Wikidata has one label per language, no main 
label.

-- 
Daniel Kinzler
Senior Software Developer

Wikimedia Deutschland
Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens e.V.

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Re: [Wikidata-l] Auto-transliteration of names of humans

[Yusuke Matsubara]

Hi Amir,

You might want to drop Japanese at least for now, because it's
complicated. Between any language and Japanese, there is no single
standard to follow as far as I know. In fact, choosing the best way to
write the name (and thus the page name) is one of the most frequent
types of disputes about foreign BLPs on Japanese Wikipedia. There are
always multiple possible transliterations for each syllable (it's
usually phonetic, not letter-to-letter, transliteration), and a random
choice will probably not the best one. For instance, "Amir" can be
"アミール", "アーミール" or "アーミル".

That said, one possible approach might be to generate, for each name,
all possible transliterations using a set of rules, and google them to
see which is the most common one (and has at least some uses on the
web). It would probably be safer to add the name in the source
language into the query, and reject any candidate that gets less than,
say, 100 hits, because some small number of hits might be just noise.

Best,
Yusuke

On Wed, Apr 22, 2015 at 9:48 PM, Amir Ladsgroup  wrote:
> Hello,
> I started bot of auto-transliterating names of humans, initially with
> Persian and English (as a pair) since I know both and I can debug. After
> some modifications, In the last check, In more than several hundreds of
> edits I checked, I couldn't find any errors, I want to expand this bot for
> other languages but before, I need opinions of people who know rules of
> transliterating names in these languages, I tried to realize rules and this
> is my result but I need someone familiar to confirm
> *Chinese: Instead of space it uses "·" character (it's not dot) but order is
> the same. e.g Alan Turing is: "艾伦·图灵" which "艾伦" means Alan and "图灵" means
> Turing
> *Japanese: it's the same but different separator: "・", e.g. "アラン・チューリング"
> *Russian: The separator is space character but order is like "FamilyName,
> GivenName" e.g. "Тьюринг, Алан" is "Turing, Alan". Handling names with more
> than two words would be pretty complicated (I skip them)
> *I checked Hebrew and Greek and both are simple languages like Persian, same
> order, space as separator.
>
> If you can help me, it would make a great difference in number of labels in
> your language. Things you can help are:
> 1- Confirm or correct rules of these languages and add other rules if
> needed.
> 2- Suggest more languages. I thought about Sanskrit, Hindi, and Telugu but I
> don't know anyone who can check the rules, if you do, please help me.
> 3- For any language I will do an initial run just to test, if you can check
> edits of the bot (which is pretty easy, e.g. see this) it would be awesome.
>
> Thanks,
> Best
>
> ___
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Re: [Wikidata-l] Auto-transliteration of names of humans

[Amir Ladsgroup]

Firstly, Note name of the thread, It's about transliterating names of
"humans", not transliterating in general, so translation doesn't make sense
at all in this case.

Secondly, I can transliterate names of Chinese people to Dutch or other
Latin languages too, it will work well and it will have completely separate
label in that item (so an item can easily have Dutch label and English
label at the same time).

Thirdly ISO standard is something we can use in some cases but most of the
time how common the transliteration is more important. By some standards
Smith should be transliterated to "اسمیث" but "اسمیت" is more common and
the latter is being used everywhere in Persian and the bot works that way.
(Note that transliteration to Arabic is something completely different)
(P.S. Arabic is another language I can work on it too)

Fourthly: Country of citizenship of the person is important too (My bot
considers this too) why? e.g. "Michael" in Michael Jackson is being
transliterated to "مایکل" (maay-kel) but "Michael" in Michael Schumacher is
"میشائل" (mi-shaa-el) because this name pronounces differently in different
languages. Same about James Bond and James Rodriguez (first is "جیمز",
 "Jeymez" and latter is "خامس", "Khaa-mes").

Best

On Thu, Apr 23, 2015 at 11:36 AM Erics wikiadres 
wrote:

>  Thanks for your reaction, Stas.
> I understand what your saying, but I think it's quite arbitrary to use
> English transliteration.
> In my opinion transliteration should be unbiased and impartial, like those
> international (ISO) standards are.
> Wikidata provides a possibility to enter national standards Shchedrin
> (English), Sjtsjedrin (Dutch), Chtchedrin (French) and Schtschedrin
> (German) as aliases. So why not use the ISO-standard as the main form?
>
> best regards, Eric.
>
> Stas Malyshev schreef op 2015-04-22 22:10:
>
> Hi!
>
> maybe French and German too). Problem could be that these standardized
> forms lead to diacritic characters (e.g. hacek on 'c' & 's'; Чайковский
> ---> Čajkovskij and Щедрин ---> Ščedrin). Is wikidata able to deal with
> these?
>
> As a native Russian speaker I can say transliteration like Ščedrin would
> look very unusual for Russian-speaking person (assuming they have
> experience at all with non-cyrillic transliterations, which most
> internet users do). Something like Shchedrin looks more familiar and
> seems to be much more common. While letters like ч and щ can indeed
> generate some long combinations which are not very visually appealing, I
> think it is more common than diacritics, which most people I think would
> struggle with.
>
> As for Hebrew, there are standard transliteration rules, which look a
> bit weird since they are not phonetical but rather base on spelling and
> distinguish some letters that all but lost their phonetical distinction
> in modern Hebrew (such as kaf and kuf) - but they are frequently used
> for signs, street names, maps, etc. These rules have been recently
> updated but old ones still are used from time to time. See more 
> athttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romanization_of_Hebrew
>
>
>
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Re: [Wikidata-l] Auto-transliteration of names of humans

[Erics wikiadres]

 

Thanks for your reaction, Stas.
I understand what your saying, but I think it's quite arbitrary to use
English transliteration.
In my opinion transliteration should be unbiased and impartial, like
those international (ISO) standards are.
Wikidata provides a possibility to enter national standards Shchedrin
(English), Sjtsjedrin (Dutch), Chtchedrin (French) and Schtschedrin
(German) as aliases. So why not use the ISO-standard as the main form?

best regards, Eric. 

Stas Malyshev schreef op 2015-04-22 22:10: 

> Hi!
> 
>> maybe French and German too). Problem could be that these standardized forms 
>> lead to diacritic characters (e.g. hacek on 'c' & 's'; Чайковский ---> 
>> Čajkovskij and Щедрин ---> Ščedrin). Is wikidata able to deal with these?
> 
> As a native Russian speaker I can say transliteration like Ščedrin would
> look very unusual for Russian-speaking person (assuming they have
> experience at all with non-cyrillic transliterations, which most
> internet users do). Something like Shchedrin looks more familiar and
> seems to be much more common. While letters like ч and щ can indeed
> generate some long combinations which are not very visually appealing, I
> think it is more common than diacritics, which most people I think would
> struggle with.
> 
> As for Hebrew, there are standard transliteration rules, which look a
> bit weird since they are not phonetical but rather base on spelling and
> distinguish some letters that all but lost their phonetical distinction
> in modern Hebrew (such as kaf and kuf) - but they are frequently used
> for signs, street names, maps, etc. These rules have been recently
> updated but old ones still are used from time to time. See more at
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romanization_of_Hebrew [1]

 

Links:
--
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romanization_of_Hebrew
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Re: [Wikidata-l] Auto-transliteration of names of humans

[Leon Liesener]

> However the labels and aliases are in languages like "it" and "fr", so 
> they're supposedly translations rather than mere transliterations. This makes 
> things more complex.

Doesn't each language have its own transliteration standards? It seems to me in 
language-specific lables rather they should be used than universal ISO. At 
least it would seem very strange if suddenly all "de" lables on Wikidata would 
be different from the dewiki article titles just because Wikidata follows ISO 
and dewiki the German standard.

Kind regards,

Leon
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Re: [Wikidata-l] Auto-transliteration of names of humans

[Stas Malyshev]

Hi!

> Careful, this is one of the most debated and dramatic style issues after
> citation format!
> Actual transliteration should clearly follow scientific/ISO standards
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_transliteration_of_Cyrillic .

Well, "scientific/ISO standards" is in this case at least three
different standards, and 11 standards if you include commonly used ones
:) E.g. see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romanization_of_Russian

> However the labels and aliases are in languages like "it" and "fr", so
> they're supposedly translations rather than mere transliterations. This
> makes things more complex.

Yes. I see that the bot is setting language labels for entities, so for
this both language-specific transliterations and common usage can be
important. Which for Russian for example can be quite crazy,
https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q187349's last name is "Ватсон" but
https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q1187613's is "Уотсон". And I have no idea
what is the correct romanization of
https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q4105300's name.
-- 
Stas Malyshev
smalys...@wikimedia.org

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Re: [Wikidata-l] Auto-transliteration of names of humans

[Federico Leva (Nemo)]

Stas Malyshev, 22/04/2015 22:10:

Something like Shchedrin looks more familiar and
seems to be much more common.


Careful, this is one of the most debated and dramatic style issues after 
citation format!
Actual transliteration should clearly follow scientific/ISO standards 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_transliteration_of_Cyrillic .


However the labels and aliases are in languages like "it" and "fr", so 
they're supposedly translations rather than mere transliterations. This 
makes things more complex.


Nemo

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Re: [Wikidata-l] Auto-transliteration of names of humans

[Markus Krötzsch]

On 22.04.2015 22:10, Stas Malyshev wrote:

Hi!

...


While letters like ч and щ can indeed
generate some long combinations which are not very visually appealing,


Tell me about it! -- M. Kroetzsch

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Re: [Wikidata-l] Auto-transliteration of names of humans

[Stas Malyshev]

Hi!

> maybe French and German too). Problem could be that these standardized
> forms lead to diacritic characters (e.g. hacek on 'c' & 's'; Чайковский
> ---> Čajkovskij and Щедрин ---> Ščedrin). Is wikidata able to deal with
> these?

As a native Russian speaker I can say transliteration like Ščedrin would
look very unusual for Russian-speaking person (assuming they have
experience at all with non-cyrillic transliterations, which most
internet users do). Something like Shchedrin looks more familiar and
seems to be much more common. While letters like ч and щ can indeed
generate some long combinations which are not very visually appealing, I
think it is more common than diacritics, which most people I think would
struggle with.

As for Hebrew, there are standard transliteration rules, which look a
bit weird since they are not phonetical but rather base on spelling and
distinguish some letters that all but lost their phonetical distinction
in modern Hebrew (such as kaf and kuf) - but they are frequently used
for signs, street names, maps, etc. These rules have been recently
updated but old ones still are used from time to time. See more at
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romanization_of_Hebrew

-- 
Stas Malyshev
smalys...@wikimedia.org

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Re: [Wikidata-l] Auto-transliteration of names of humans

[Daniel Kinzler]

Am 22.04.2015 um 15:09 schrieb Erics wikiadres:
> Problem could be that these standardized forms lead to
> diacritic characters (e.g. hacek on 'c' & 's'; Чайковский ---> Čajkovskij
> and Щедрин ---> Ščedrin). Is wikidata able to deal with these?

Yes, easily. Wikibase supports full unicode. Well, at least for the BMP. Support
for other unicode planes (say, traditional chinese) may not be perfect.


-- 
Daniel Kinzler
Senior Software Developer

Wikimedia Deutschland
Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens e.V.

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Re: [Wikidata-l] Auto-transliteration of names of humans

[Erics wikiadres]

 

That sounds to me as very useful indeed, Amir.
I'm a newby to wikidata but as soon as I am back from my holiday (as of
5/5) I'd like to help.
I know how to transliterate Armenian, Georgian, Ukrainian and Russian to
internationally standardized (ISO-standards) forms (and to English and
maybe French and German too). Problem could be that these standardized
forms lead to diacritic characters (e.g. hacek on 'c' & 's'; Чайковский
---> Čajkovskij and Щедрин ---> Ščedrin). Is wikidata able to deal with
these?

best regards,
Eric van Balkum ('Eric de Muziekbibliothecaris')
(former) Music Librarian, managing authority database at www.mcomb.nl
_'Music was my first love, and it will be my last'_

Amir Ladsgroup schreef op 2015-04-22 14:48: 

> Hello, 
> I started bot of auto-transliterating names of humans, initially with Persian 
> and English (as a pair) since I know both and I can debug. After some 
> modifications, In the last check, In more than several hundreds of edits I 
> checked, I couldn't find any errors, I want to expand this bot for other 
> languages but before, I need opinions of people who know rules of 
> transliterating names in these languages, I tried to realize rules and this 
> is my result but I need someone familiar to confirm 
> *Chinese: Instead of space it uses "·" character (it's not dot) but order is 
> the same. e.g Alan Turing is: "艾伦·图灵" [2] which "艾伦" means Alan and "图灵" 
> means Turing 
> *Japanese: it's the same but different separator: "・", e.g. "アラン・チューリング" [3] 
> *Russian: The separator is space character but order is like "FamilyName, 
> GivenName" e.g. "Тьюринг, Алан" [4] is "Turing, Alan". Handling names with 
> more than two words would be pretty complicated (I skip them) 
> *I checked Hebrew and Greek and both are simple languages like Persian, same 
> order, space as separator. 
> 
> If you can help me, it would make a great difference in number of labels in 
> your language. Things you can help are: 
> 1- Confirm or correct rules of these languages and add other rules if needed. 
> 2- Suggest more languages. I thought about Sanskrit, Hindi, and Telugu but I 
> don't know anyone who can check the rules, if you do, please help me. 
> 3- For any language I will do an initial run just to test, if you can check 
> edits of the bot (which is pretty easy, e.g. see this [5]) it would be 
> awesome. 
> 
> Thanks, 
> Best 
> 
> ___
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> Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l [1]

 

Links:
--
[1] https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
[2]
https://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E8%89%BE%E4%BC%A6%C2%B7%E5%9B%BE%E7%81%B5
[3]
https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E3%82%A2%E3%83%A9%E3%83%B3%E3%83%BB%E3%83%81%E3%83%A5%E3%83%BC%E3%83%AA%E3%83%B3%E3%82%B0
[4]
https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A2%D1%8C%D1%8E%D1%80%D0%B8%D0%BD%D0%B3,_%D0%90%D0%BB%D0%B0%D0%BD
[5]
https://www.wikidata.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Contributions/Dexbot&dir=prev&offset=20150422000329&target=Dexbot___
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Re: [Wikidata-l] Auto-transliteration of names of humans

[Daniel Kinzler]

I think using the order "Last, First" is a convention for page names in the
Russian Wikipedia. I don't think having this form in Russian labels on Wikidata
is necessary (or even desirable). Maybe The Other Amir can tell us more :)

Am 22.04.2015 um 14:48 schrieb Amir Ladsgroup:
> Hello,
> I started bot of auto-transliterating names of humans, initially with Persian
> and English (as a pair) since I know both and I can debug. After some
> modifications, In the last check, In more than several hundreds of edits I
> checked, I couldn't find any errors, I want to expand this bot for other
> languages but before, I need opinions of people who know rules of
> transliterating names in these languages, I tried to realize rules and this is
> my result but I need someone familiar to confirm
> *Chinese: Instead of space it uses "·" character (it's not dot) but order is 
> the
> same. e.g Alan Turing is:"艾伦·图灵"
>  
> which
> "艾伦" means Alan and "图灵" means Turing
> *Japanese: it's the same but different separator: "・", e.g. "アラン・チューリン
> グ"
> 
> *Russian: The separator is space character but order is like "FamilyName,
> GivenName" e.g. "Тьюринг, Алан"
> 
>  is
> "Turing, Alan". Handling names with more than two words would be pretty
> complicated (I skip them)
> *I checked Hebrew and Greek and both are simple languages like Persian, same
> order, space as separator.
> 
> If you can help me, it would make a great difference in number of labels in 
> your
> language. Things you can help are:
> 1- Confirm or correct rules of these languages and add other rules if needed.
> 2- Suggest more languages. I thought about Sanskrit, Hindi, and Telugu but I
> don't know anyone who can check the rules, if you do, please help me.
> 3- For any language I will do an initial run just to test, if you can check
> edits of the bot (which is pretty easy, e.g. see this
> )
> it would be awesome.
> 
> Thanks,
> Best
> 
> 
> ___
> Wikidata-l mailing list
> Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
> 


-- 
Daniel Kinzler
Senior Software Developer

Wikimedia Deutschland
Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens e.V.

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