Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information
Drew, Being in favor of not limiting bandwidth may seem very altruistic but I'm not sure you are aware of the bandwidth/throughput limitations of todays wireless equipment used for last mile access. It's not a question of fitting the business model; it's a question of fitting today's current technology model. With limited license-free frequency availability, a WISP can only serve X amount of bandwidth to Y number of customers. Do you understand this and have you factored this into your thinking? In many rural areas, there is no non-wireless infrastructure in place that the customer can migrate to. If the WISP can't meet the bandwidth needs, there is not some other ISP out there who can. What is your take on this situation? jack Drew Lentz wrote: I'm all for open systems. Limiting the amount of bandwidth at any level is, to me, a terrible thing to do. I understand that it doesn't necessarily fit the model as it applies to today's business for many ISPs, but, maybe its time to change the model. This is where the separation of providers starts to take shape. The networks that can handle these loads and supply the end-user are going to win the customers. I honestly think the demand of large scale bandwidth is going to be fed to the end-user by the consumer electronics market. Look at CES last year. Look how many devices demand connectivity at certain levels. If your current service provider can't get you what you need, there will always be someone else who can. There is some great info here from a recent conference: http://www4.gsb.columbia.edu/citi/events/summit2008 Take a look at the slides. I like the reference to the slide where it breaks down how much bandwidth utilization there is expected to be per household: 35+ Mbps (and those are numbers from 2006!) 4 VoIP lines @ 100Kbps 2 SDTVs @ 2Mbps 2 HDTVs @ 9 Mbps 1 Gaming device @ 1Mbps 1 High Spedd Internet @ 10Mbps Scary how quickly it adds up :) My favorite quote: ³By the year 2010 bandwidth for 20 homes will generate more traffic than entire Internet in 1995² -d On 11/24/08 12:24 AM, Butch Evans [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sun, 23 Nov 2008, Travis Johnson wrote: It will be interesting to see how this plays out... the amount of bandwidth required to sustain this type of service is not cost effective. My upstream costs alone are over $50/Mbps. So if someone wants to run a constant 2Mbps stream, my raw cost is $100 per month (not including backhaul, support, AP costs, etc.). Wait until people realize that this type of service isn't going to be free as they think now when they get a $150/month internet bill, the $40 for DishTV will look pretty good. ;) Even the cable companies are feeling the burn here: http://tinyurl.com/3oufk8 Or a better story: http://news.cnet.com/2100-1034_3-5079624.html I am glad to see these types of reports coming out. The cable ops and telcos have been rapidly trying to commoditize Internet access services and now they are realizing how stupid that was. In my opinion, high profile companies that are setting these limits are going to help the smaller guys (that's us) get away with what, in many cases, we were already doing. BW caps are something that will HAVE to happen in one form or another. RANT Where are all the net neutrality people now? Why aren't you all arguing that something like this is not relevant? Isn't this something that you have all asked for? I mean, if I sell someone a 2 meg connection, shouldn't they (and everyone else on the system) be able to run at 2 meg for the whole month? What difference does it make if I am buying a wireless connection, DSL or cable connection? In a net neutral environment, should it matter that I am streaming this type of content? /RANT I feel better. ;-) WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- Jack Unger - President, Ask-Wi.Com, Inc. Serving the Broadband Wireless Industry Since 1993 Cisco Press Author - Deploying License-Free Wireless WANs WISPs - Do you know where your customers are? For wireless coverage mapping see http://www.ask-wi.com/mapping FCC Lic. #PG-12-25133 LinkedIn Profile http://www.linkedin.com/in/jackunger Phone 818-227-4220 Email [EMAIL PROTECTED] WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives:
Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information
You have hit the problem directly on the head. You think a simple Canopy AP is going to solve the problem? Let's say you are allocating 10Mbps downlink on this AP... that would mean 5 customers per AP (@ 2Mbps each). Nobody in this market can survive on those ratios. This service needs capped and people that want it can pay for "video streaming" which is $100/month extra... that would be my vote. Travis Microserv Drew Lentz wrote: In areas like yours, though, some would argue that is the perfect place for some type of licensed LTE/WiMAX type of service. Even with a Canopy type service it would beat down the doors of the telco offering only 3Mbps of service. As more and more devices have bandwidth requirements, the service providers will fall into line, I believe. Everyone has always pushed for more bandwidth, but it as always come from the customers as opposed to the devices. It seems like now, the device requirements will leave the customer with no choice and force them into a decision of higher consumption. As far as furthering the digital divide, I don't think it will hurt it all that bad. On the contrary what would be nice to see is the communications mediums becoming less expensive because of the amount of services required. Just like the price of bandwidth has changed over the years, I think it will continue to drop. I would love to see some research data on the cost per MB over the last 10 years and see what the trend is like. That combined with less expensive and functional equipment (UBNT's Bullet, the introduction of Mikrotik years ago, for examples) gives operators the ability to put more bandwidth than before in users hands at a fraction of the cost. I think more than anything it will come down to a backhaul battle. Fiber to the node, fiber to the AP, high capacity microwave links (Bridgewave, Dragonwave, Ceragon, etc) These are all going to be critically important to aggregate and transport these huge amounts of data. On 11/24/08 1:06 AM, "Scottie Arnett" [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It will further the digital divide. Rural remote locations will be again left in the boon docks. Where I live, 3 meg DSL is the fastest available connection at $75/mth. Cheapest T1 here is over $600/mth, and fiber? forget it, can't get it unless you want to build about 4 towers just to backhaul, or pay $1200/mth for each cell tower to put them on. Why should the small ISP's foot the bill for Netflix and these companies that are making million's of dollars more than we are? Scottie -- Original Message -- From: Drew Lentz [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 00:41:41 -0600 I'm all for open systems. Limiting the amount of bandwidth at any level is, to me, a terrible thing to do. I understand that it doesn't necessarily fit the model as it applies to today's business for many ISPs, but, maybe its time to change the model. This is where the separation of providers starts to take shape. The networks that can handle these loads and supply the end-user are going to win the customers. I honestly think the demand of large scale bandwidth is going to be fed to the end-user by the consumer electronics market. Look at CES last year. Look how many devices demand connectivity at certain levels. If your current service provider can't get you what you need, there will always be someone else who can. There is some great info here from a recent conference: http://www4.gsb.columbia.edu/citi/events/summit2008 Take a look at the slides. I like the reference to the slide where it breaks down how much bandwidth utilization there is expected to be per household: 35+ Mbps (and those are numbers from 2006!) 4 VoIP lines @ 100Kbps 2 SDTVs @ 2Mbps 2 HDTVs @ 9 Mbps 1 Gaming device @ 1Mbps 1 High Spedd Internet @ 10Mbps Scary how quickly it adds up :) My favorite quote: By the year 2010 bandwidth for 20 homes will generate more traffic than entire Internet in 1995 -d On 11/24/08 12:24 AM, "Butch Evans" [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sun, 23 Nov 2008, Travis Johnson wrote: It will be interesting to see how this plays out... the amount of bandwidth required to sustain this type of service is not cost effective. My upstream costs alone are over $50/Mbps. So if someone wants to run a constant 2Mbps stream, my raw cost is $100 per month (not including backhaul, support, AP costs, etc.). Wait until people realize that this type of service isn't going to be "free" as they think now when they get a $150/month internet bill, the $40 for DishTV will look pretty good. ;) Even the cable companies are feeling the burn here: http://tinyurl.com/3oufk8 Or a better story: http://news.cnet.com/2100-1034_3-5079624.html I am glad to see these types of reports coming out. The cable ops and telcos have been rapidly trying to
Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information
Yes. I am up to 25 gig this month. Course me and my wife have been watching older TV shows over the weekend. ;) -- * Dennis Burgess, CCNA, A+, Mikrotik Certified Trainer WISPA Board Member - wispa.org http://www.wispa.org/ Link Technologies, Inc -- Mikrotik WISP Support Services* *Office*: 314-735-0270 *Website*: http://www.linktechs.net http://www.linktechs.net/ */ Link Technologies, Inc is offering LIVE Mikrotik On-Line Training http://www.linktechs.net/onlinetraining.asp/* Travis Johnson wrote: You have hit the problem directly on the head. You think a simple Canopy AP is going to solve the problem? Let's say you are allocating 10Mbps downlink on this AP... that would mean 5 customers per AP (@ 2Mbps each). Nobody in this market can survive on those ratios. This service needs capped and people that want it can pay for video streaming which is $100/month extra... that would be my vote. Travis Microserv Drew Lentz wrote: In areas like yours, though, some would argue that is the perfect place for some type of licensed LTE/WiMAX type of service. Even with a Canopy type service it would beat down the doors of the telco offering only 3Mbps of service. As more and more devices have bandwidth requirements, the service providers will fall into line, I believe. Everyone has always pushed for more bandwidth, but it as always come from the customers as opposed to the devices. It seems like now, the device requirements will leave the customer with no choice and force them into a decision of higher consumption. As far as furthering the digital divide, I don't think it will hurt it all that bad. On the contrary what would be nice to see is the communications mediums becoming less expensive because of the amount of services required. Just like the price of bandwidth has changed over the years, I think it will continue to drop. I would love to see some research data on the cost per MB over the last 10 years and see what the trend is like. That combined with less expensive and functional equipment (UBNT's Bullet, the introduction of Mikrotik years ago, for examples) gives operators the ability to put more bandwidth than before in users hands at a fraction of the cost. I think more than anything it will come down to a backhaul battle. Fiber to the node, fiber to the AP, high capacity microwave links (Bridgewave, Dragonwave, Ceragon, etc) These are all going to be critically important to aggregate and transport these huge amounts of data. On 11/24/08 1:06 AM, Scottie Arnett [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It will further the digital divide. Rural remote locations will be again left in the boon docks. Where I live, 3 meg DSL is the fastest available connection at $75/mth. Cheapest T1 here is over $600/mth, and fiber? forget it, can't get it unless you want to build about 4 towers just to backhaul, or pay $1200/mth for each cell tower to put them on. Why should the small ISP's foot the bill for Netflix and these companies that are making million's of dollars more than we are? Scottie -- Original Message -- From: Drew Lentz [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 00:41:41 -0600 I'm all for open systems. Limiting the amount of bandwidth at any level is, to me, a terrible thing to do. I understand that it doesn't necessarily fit the model as it applies to today's business for many ISPs, but, maybe its time to change the model. This is where the separation of providers starts to take shape. The networks that can handle these loads and supply the end-user are going to win the customers. I honestly think the demand of large scale bandwidth is going to be fed to the end-user by the consumer electronics market. Look at CES last year. Look how many devices demand connectivity at certain levels. If your current service provider can't get you what you need, there will always be someone else who can. There is some great info here from a recent conference: http://www4.gsb.columbia.edu/citi/events/summit2008 Take a look at the slides. I like the reference to the slide where it breaks down how much bandwidth utilization there is expected to be per household: 35+ Mbps (and those are numbers from 2006!) 4 VoIP lines @ 100Kbps 2 SDTVs @ 2Mbps 2 HDTVs @ 9 Mbps 1 Gaming device @ 1Mbps 1 High Spedd Internet @ 10Mbps Scary how quickly it adds up :) My favorite quote: ³By the year 2010 bandwidth for 20 homes will generate more traffic than entire Internet in 1995² -d On 11/24/08 12:24 AM, Butch Evans [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sun, 23 Nov 2008, Travis Johnson wrote: It will be interesting to see how this plays out... the amount of bandwidth required to sustain this type of service is not cost effective. My upstream costs alone are over $50/Mbps. So if someone wants to run a
Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information
Couple of things to mention here... I believe (not certain!) that Netflix will do lower quality streams based on your downstream connection. How low it will go I can't say. If a customer wants something they have to pay for it. The majority of customers go with the smallest package (something like 256k to 2meg depending on the area) which probably won't work with Netflix well. They'll be forced to upgrade and pay more to the ISP, or stop the Netflix service (which is free for the first month). Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 Those who don't understand UNIX are condemned to reinvent it, poorly. --- Henry Spencer On Mon, Nov 24, 2008 at 9:56 AM, Dennis Burgess - LinkTechs.net [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Yes. I am up to 25 gig this month. Course me and my wife have been watching older TV shows over the weekend. ;) -- * Dennis Burgess, CCNA, A+, Mikrotik Certified Trainer WISPA Board Member - wispa.org http://www.wispa.org/ Link Technologies, Inc -- Mikrotik WISP Support Services* *Office*: 314-735-0270 *Website*: http://www.linktechs.net http://www.linktechs.net/ */ Link Technologies, Inc is offering LIVE Mikrotik On-Line Training http://www.linktechs.net/onlinetraining.asp/* Travis Johnson wrote: You have hit the problem directly on the head. You think a simple Canopy AP is going to solve the problem? Let's say you are allocating 10Mbps downlink on this AP... that would mean 5 customers per AP (@ 2Mbps each). Nobody in this market can survive on those ratios. This service needs capped and people that want it can pay for video streaming which is $100/month extra... that would be my vote. Travis Microserv Drew Lentz wrote: In areas like yours, though, some would argue that is the perfect place for some type of licensed LTE/WiMAX type of service. Even with a Canopy type service it would beat down the doors of the telco offering only 3Mbps of service. As more and more devices have bandwidth requirements, the service providers will fall into line, I believe. Everyone has always pushed for more bandwidth, but it as always come from the customers as opposed to the devices. It seems like now, the device requirements will leave the customer with no choice and force them into a decision of higher consumption. As far as furthering the digital divide, I don't think it will hurt it all that bad. On the contrary what would be nice to see is the communications mediums becoming less expensive because of the amount of services required. Just like the price of bandwidth has changed over the years, I think it will continue to drop. I would love to see some research data on the cost per MB over the last 10 years and see what the trend is like. That combined with less expensive and functional equipment (UBNT's Bullet, the introduction of Mikrotik years ago, for examples) gives operators the ability to put more bandwidth than before in users hands at a fraction of the cost. I think more than anything it will come down to a backhaul battle. Fiber to the node, fiber to the AP, high capacity microwave links (Bridgewave, Dragonwave, Ceragon, etc) These are all going to be critically important to aggregate and transport these huge amounts of data. On 11/24/08 1:06 AM, Scottie Arnett [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It will further the digital divide. Rural remote locations will be again left in the boon docks. Where I live, 3 meg DSL is the fastest available connection at $75/mth. Cheapest T1 here is over $600/mth, and fiber? forget it, can't get it unless you want to build about 4 towers just to backhaul, or pay $1200/mth for each cell tower to put them on. Why should the small ISP's foot the bill for Netflix and these companies that are making million's of dollars more than we are? Scottie -- Original Message -- From: Drew Lentz [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 00:41:41 -0600 I'm all for open systems. Limiting the amount of bandwidth at any level is, to me, a terrible thing to do. I understand that it doesn't necessarily fit the model as it applies to today's business for many ISPs, but, maybe its time to change the model. This is where the separation of providers starts to take shape. The networks that can handle these loads and supply the end-user are going to win the customers. I honestly think the demand of large scale bandwidth is going to be fed to the end-user by the consumer electronics market. Look at CES last year. Look how many devices demand connectivity at certain levels. If your current service provider can't get you what you need, there will always be someone else who can. There is some great info here from a recent conference:
Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information
I dont think that there is a PTMP wireless platform available to anyone that will support multi users streaming 2Mbps+ off of a single AP. If this is available I would like to know whose gear it is and what bank is going to lend the money to revamp an entire network. We have always had a bandwidth cap and have always explained to our subs (before installation) the cap and give examples of the caps in writing as well as in our TOS AUP. I also explain that we are in the business to sale bandwidth and that we do not intend to punish anyone for going over the allotted BW, but that they should be prepared to pay for what they use since this is not an all you can eat buffet for $50.00 If you - as an internet service provider do not have a cap in place and are selling unlimited BW at a fixed price I fear you are about to be tested beyond belief. The price of the actual bandwidth is not the problem - - its the price of the pipe between towers and the actual ability of the AP on the towers. My wife and I watched 5 Netflix movies over the weekend via internet streaming. We used 13Gigs of bandwidth and it does use a sustained download from the AP of between 1.6 2.5Mbps as well as around 160pps total. This is going to be a huge problem for all of us - - especially for rural providers like myself that have so many 802.11b access points deployed!! Mac From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Travis Johnson Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 8:30 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information You have hit the problem directly on the head. You think a simple Canopy AP is going to solve the problem? Let's say you are allocating 10Mbps downlink on this AP... that would mean 5 customers per AP (@ 2Mbps each). Nobody in this market can survive on those ratios. This service needs capped and people that want it can pay for video streaming which is $100/month extra... that would be my vote. Travis Microserv Drew Lentz wrote: In areas like yours, though, some would argue that is the perfect place for some type of licensed LTE/WiMAX type of service. Even with a Canopy type service it would beat down the doors of the telco offering only 3Mbps of service. As more and more devices have bandwidth requirements, the service providers will fall into line, I believe. Everyone has always pushed for more bandwidth, but it as always come from the customers as opposed to the devices. It seems like now, the device requirements will leave the customer with no choice and force them into a decision of higher consumption. As far as furthering the digital divide, I don't think it will hurt it all that bad. On the contrary what would be nice to see is the communications mediums becoming less expensive because of the amount of services required. Just like the price of bandwidth has changed over the years, I think it will continue to drop. I would love to see some research data on the cost per MB over the last 10 years and see what the trend is like. That combined with less expensive and functional equipment (UBNT's Bullet, the introduction of Mikrotik years ago, for examples) gives operators the ability to put more bandwidth than before in users hands at a fraction of the cost. I think more than anything it will come down to a backhaul battle. Fiber to the node, fiber to the AP, high capacity microwave links (Bridgewave, Dragonwave, Ceragon, etc) These are all going to be critically important to aggregate and transport these huge amounts of data. On 11/24/08 1:06 AM, Scottie Arnett mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It will further the digital divide. Rural remote locations will be again left in the boon docks. Where I live, 3 meg DSL is the fastest available connection at $75/mth. Cheapest T1 here is over $600/mth, and fiber? forget it, can't get it unless you want to build about 4 towers just to backhaul, or pay $1200/mth for each cell tower to put them on. Why should the small ISP's foot the bill for Netflix and these companies that are making million's of dollars more than we are? Scottie -- Original Message -- From: Drew Lentz mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: WISPA General List mailto:wireless@wispa.org wireless@wispa.org Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 00:41:41 -0600 I'm all for open systems. Limiting the amount of bandwidth at any level is, to me, a terrible thing to do. I understand that it doesn't necessarily fit the model as it applies to today's business for many ISPs, but, maybe its time to change the model. This is where the separation of providers starts to take shape. The networks that can handle these loads and supply the end-user are going to win the customers. I honestly think the demand of large scale bandwidth is going to be fed to the end-user by the consumer electronics market. Look at CES last year. Look
Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information
It is important to understand the business impact on this. If you can deliver these speeds, this also could be a method to enable upgrades of your service. I.e. Customer calls in and says their netflix video is bad, if they do not have at least 2-3 meg , and you offer that speed, upgrade them! I know WISPs on 2.4 delivering 3 meg to customers (some not all). Course they don't get far on each AP. lol -- * Dennis Burgess, CCNA, A+, Mikrotik Certified Trainer WISPA Board Member - wispa.org http://www.wispa.org/ Link Technologies, Inc -- Mikrotik WISP Support Services* *Office*: 314-735-0270 *Website*: http://www.linktechs.net http://www.linktechs.net/ */ Link Technologies, Inc is offering LIVE Mikrotik On-Line Training http://www.linktechs.net/onlinetraining.asp/* Josh Luthman wrote: Couple of things to mention here... I believe (not certain!) that Netflix will do lower quality streams based on your downstream connection. How low it will go I can't say. If a customer wants something they have to pay for it. The majority of customers go with the smallest package (something like 256k to 2meg depending on the area) which probably won't work with Netflix well. They'll be forced to upgrade and pay more to the ISP, or stop the Netflix service (which is free for the first month). Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 Those who don't understand UNIX are condemned to reinvent it, poorly. --- Henry Spencer On Mon, Nov 24, 2008 at 9:56 AM, Dennis Burgess - LinkTechs.net [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Yes. I am up to 25 gig this month. Course me and my wife have been watching older TV shows over the weekend. ;) -- * Dennis Burgess, CCNA, A+, Mikrotik Certified Trainer WISPA Board Member - wispa.org http://www.wispa.org/ Link Technologies, Inc -- Mikrotik WISP Support Services* *Office*: 314-735-0270 *Website*: http://www.linktechs.net http://www.linktechs.net/ */ Link Technologies, Inc is offering LIVE Mikrotik On-Line Training http://www.linktechs.net/onlinetraining.asp/* Travis Johnson wrote: You have hit the problem directly on the head. You think a simple Canopy AP is going to solve the problem? Let's say you are allocating 10Mbps downlink on this AP... that would mean 5 customers per AP (@ 2Mbps each). Nobody in this market can survive on those ratios. This service needs capped and people that want it can pay for video streaming which is $100/month extra... that would be my vote. Travis Microserv Drew Lentz wrote: In areas like yours, though, some would argue that is the perfect place for some type of licensed LTE/WiMAX type of service. Even with a Canopy type service it would beat down the doors of the telco offering only 3Mbps of service. As more and more devices have bandwidth requirements, the service providers will fall into line, I believe. Everyone has always pushed for more bandwidth, but it as always come from the customers as opposed to the devices. It seems like now, the device requirements will leave the customer with no choice and force them into a decision of higher consumption. As far as furthering the digital divide, I don't think it will hurt it all that bad. On the contrary what would be nice to see is the communications mediums becoming less expensive because of the amount of services required. Just like the price of bandwidth has changed over the years, I think it will continue to drop. I would love to see some research data on the cost per MB over the last 10 years and see what the trend is like. That combined with less expensive and functional equipment (UBNT's Bullet, the introduction of Mikrotik years ago, for examples) gives operators the ability to put more bandwidth than before in users hands at a fraction of the cost. I think more than anything it will come down to a backhaul battle. Fiber to the node, fiber to the AP, high capacity microwave links (Bridgewave, Dragonwave, Ceragon, etc) These are all going to be critically important to aggregate and transport these huge amounts of data. On 11/24/08 1:06 AM, Scottie Arnett [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It will further the digital divide. Rural remote locations will be again left in the boon docks. Where I live, 3 meg DSL is the fastest available connection at $75/mth. Cheapest T1 here is over $600/mth, and fiber? forget it, can't get it unless you want to build about 4 towers just to backhaul, or pay $1200/mth for each cell tower to put them on. Why should the small ISP's foot the bill
Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information
I have several customer's that stream some kind of data (I've always assumed it was a patch or new game) from Valve's servers. These customers are all on one AP - I think they're a family of gamers. Each of them do a good 2meg+ during the night time or weekends. Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 Those who don't understand UNIX are condemned to reinvent it, poorly. --- Henry Spencer On Mon, Nov 24, 2008 at 10:24 AM, Dennis Burgess - LinkTechs.net [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It is important to understand the business impact on this. If you can deliver these speeds, this also could be a method to enable upgrades of your service. I.e. Customer calls in and says their netflix video is bad, if they do not have at least 2-3 meg , and you offer that speed, upgrade them! I know WISPs on 2.4 delivering 3 meg to customers (some not all). Course they don't get far on each AP. lol -- * Dennis Burgess, CCNA, A+, Mikrotik Certified Trainer WISPA Board Member - wispa.org http://www.wispa.org/ Link Technologies, Inc -- Mikrotik WISP Support Services* *Office*: 314-735-0270 *Website*: http://www.linktechs.net http://www.linktechs.net/ */ Link Technologies, Inc is offering LIVE Mikrotik On-Line Training http://www.linktechs.net/onlinetraining.asp/* Josh Luthman wrote: Couple of things to mention here... I believe (not certain!) that Netflix will do lower quality streams based on your downstream connection. How low it will go I can't say. If a customer wants something they have to pay for it. The majority of customers go with the smallest package (something like 256k to 2meg depending on the area) which probably won't work with Netflix well. They'll be forced to upgrade and pay more to the ISP, or stop the Netflix service (which is free for the first month). Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 Those who don't understand UNIX are condemned to reinvent it, poorly. --- Henry Spencer On Mon, Nov 24, 2008 at 9:56 AM, Dennis Burgess - LinkTechs.net [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Yes. I am up to 25 gig this month. Course me and my wife have been watching older TV shows over the weekend. ;) -- * Dennis Burgess, CCNA, A+, Mikrotik Certified Trainer WISPA Board Member - wispa.org http://www.wispa.org/ Link Technologies, Inc -- Mikrotik WISP Support Services* *Office*: 314-735-0270 *Website*: http://www.linktechs.net http://www.linktechs.net/ */ Link Technologies, Inc is offering LIVE Mikrotik On-Line Training http://www.linktechs.net/onlinetraining.asp/* Travis Johnson wrote: You have hit the problem directly on the head. You think a simple Canopy AP is going to solve the problem? Let's say you are allocating 10Mbps downlink on this AP... that would mean 5 customers per AP (@ 2Mbps each). Nobody in this market can survive on those ratios. This service needs capped and people that want it can pay for video streaming which is $100/month extra... that would be my vote. Travis Microserv Drew Lentz wrote: In areas like yours, though, some would argue that is the perfect place for some type of licensed LTE/WiMAX type of service. Even with a Canopy type service it would beat down the doors of the telco offering only 3Mbps of service. As more and more devices have bandwidth requirements, the service providers will fall into line, I believe. Everyone has always pushed for more bandwidth, but it as always come from the customers as opposed to the devices. It seems like now, the device requirements will leave the customer with no choice and force them into a decision of higher consumption. As far as furthering the digital divide, I don't think it will hurt it all that bad. On the contrary what would be nice to see is the communications mediums becoming less expensive because of the amount of services required. Just like the price of bandwidth has changed over the years, I think it will continue to drop. I would love to see some research data on the cost per MB over the last 10 years and see what the trend is like. That combined with less expensive and functional equipment (UBNT's Bullet, the introduction of Mikrotik years ago, for examples) gives operators the ability to put more bandwidth than before in users hands at a fraction of the cost. I think more than anything it will come down to a backhaul battle. Fiber to the node, fiber to the AP, high capacity microwave links (Bridgewave, Dragonwave, Ceragon, etc) These are all going to be critically important to aggregate and transport these huge amounts of data. On 11/24/08 1:06 AM, Scottie Arnett [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information
Since I moved out here onto the side of the coastal mountains in a little cabin, I have not bought cable or dish. I use my internet. One thing that does happen is I watch a lot less tv and really now only watch some movies, maybe one or two a week. Mostly I watch the news www.foxnews.com or msnbc.com etc. I have graphed my usage and watch the transfer rates on my connections to see the requirements of internet video. I think wisps will be in trouble if our equipment doesn't mature to where we have more available bandwidth. But I also think those who watch a lot of tv, the channel hoppers won't do the internet video. Most people just want to flip through channels and cannot tolerate anything less than perfect tv, which is not what internet tv is all about, or jusdt a click of the remote, not messing with the mouse and keyboard. One bright spot for us wisps, or non cable isp's, for a small segment of the market, who really don't want to spend too much money on tv because they either can not afford it or just don't watch much, they can dump the cable company. Once you start cutting the strings to the cable company and the phone company, you have more customers moving towards a wisp. Dennis Burgess - LinkTechs.net wrote: Yes. I am up to 25 gig this month. Course me and my wife have been watching older TV shows over the weekend. ;) -- * Dennis Burgess, CCNA, A+, Mikrotik Certified Trainer WISPA Board Member - wispa.org http://www.wispa.org/ Link Technologies, Inc -- Mikrotik WISP Support Services* *Office*: 314-735-0270 *Website*: http://www.linktechs.net http://www.linktechs.net/ */ Link Technologies, Inc is offering LIVE Mikrotik On-Line Training http://www.linktechs.net/onlinetraining.asp/* Travis Johnson wrote: You have hit the problem directly on the head. You think a simple Canopy AP is going to solve the problem? Let's say you are allocating 10Mbps downlink on this AP... that would mean 5 customers per AP (@ 2Mbps each). Nobody in this market can survive on those ratios. This service needs capped and people that want it can pay for video streaming which is $100/month extra... that would be my vote. Travis Microserv Drew Lentz wrote: In areas like yours, though, some would argue that is the perfect place for some type of licensed LTE/WiMAX type of service. Even with a Canopy type service it would beat down the doors of the telco offering only 3Mbps of service. As more and more devices have bandwidth requirements, the service providers will fall into line, I believe. Everyone has always pushed for more bandwidth, but it as always come from the customers as opposed to the devices. It seems like now, the device requirements will leave the customer with no choice and force them into a decision of higher consumption. As far as furthering the digital divide, I don't think it will hurt it all that bad. On the contrary what would be nice to see is the communications mediums becoming less expensive because of the amount of services required. Just like the price of bandwidth has changed over the years, I think it will continue to drop. I would love to see some research data on the cost per MB over the last 10 years and see what the trend is like. That combined with less expensive and functional equipment (UBNT's Bullet, the introduction of Mikrotik years ago, for examples) gives operators the ability to put more bandwidth than before in users hands at a fraction of the cost. I think more than anything it will come down to a backhaul battle. Fiber to the node, fiber to the AP, high capacity microwave links (Bridgewave, Dragonwave, Ceragon, etc) These are all going to be critically important to aggregate and transport these huge amounts of data. On 11/24/08 1:06 AM, Scottie Arnett [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It will further the digital divide. Rural remote locations will be again left in the boon docks. Where I live, 3 meg DSL is the fastest available connection at $75/mth. Cheapest T1 here is over $600/mth, and fiber? forget it, can't get it unless you want to build about 4 towers just to backhaul, or pay $1200/mth for each cell tower to put them on. Why should the small ISP's foot the bill for Netflix and these companies that are making million's of dollars more than we are? Scottie -- Original Message -- From: Drew Lentz [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 00:41:41 -0600 I'm all for open systems. Limiting the amount of bandwidth at any level is, to me, a terrible thing to do. I understand that it doesn't necessarily fit the model as it applies to today's business for many ISPs, but, maybe its time to change the model. This is where the separation of providers starts to take shape. The networks that can handle these loads and supply the end-user
Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information
I think the canopy 450 will do something like 30 down and 10 up. So that could give you 20 simultaneously which statistically could work if you had 50-100 on an AP. - Original Message - From: Travis Johnson To: WISPA General List Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 7:30 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information You have hit the problem directly on the head. You think a simple Canopy AP is going to solve the problem? Let's say you are allocating 10Mbps downlink on this AP... that would mean 5 customers per AP (@ 2Mbps each). Nobody in this market can survive on those ratios. This service needs capped and people that want it can pay for video streaming which is $100/month extra... that would be my vote. Travis Microserv Drew Lentz wrote: In areas like yours, though, some would argue that is the perfect place for some type of licensed LTE/WiMAX type of service. Even with a Canopy type service it would beat down the doors of the telco offering only 3Mbps of service. As more and more devices have bandwidth requirements, the service providers will fall into line, I believe. Everyone has always pushed for more bandwidth, but it as always come from the customers as opposed to the devices. It seems like now, the device requirements will leave the customer with no choice and force them into a decision of higher consumption. As far as furthering the digital divide, I don't think it will hurt it all that bad. On the contrary what would be nice to see is the communications mediums becoming less expensive because of the amount of services required. Just like the price of bandwidth has changed over the years, I think it will continue to drop. I would love to see some research data on the cost per MB over the last 10 years and see what the trend is like. That combined with less expensive and functional equipment (UBNT's Bullet, the introduction of Mikrotik years ago, for examples) gives operators the ability to put more bandwidth than before in users hands at a fraction of the cost. I think more than anything it will come down to a backhaul battle. Fiber to the node, fiber to the AP, high capacity microwave links (Bridgewave, Dragonwave, Ceragon, etc) These are all going to be critically important to aggregate and transport these huge amounts of data. On 11/24/08 1:06 AM, Scottie Arnett [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It will further the digital divide. Rural remote locations will be again left in the boon docks. Where I live, 3 meg DSL is the fastest available connection at $75/mth. Cheapest T1 here is over $600/mth, and fiber? forget it, can't get it unless you want to build about 4 towers just to backhaul, or pay $1200/mth for each cell tower to put them on. Why should the small ISP's foot the bill for Netflix and these companies that are making million's of dollars more than we are? Scottie -- Original Message -- From: Drew Lentz [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 00:41:41 -0600 I'm all for open systems. Limiting the amount of bandwidth at any level is, to me, a terrible thing to do. I understand that it doesn't necessarily fit the model as it applies to today's business for many ISPs, but, maybe its time to change the model. This is where the separation of providers starts to take shape. The networks that can handle these loads and supply the end-user are going to win the customers. I honestly think the demand of large scale bandwidth is going to be fed to the end-user by the consumer electronics market. Look at CES last year. Look how many devices demand connectivity at certain levels. If your current service provider can't get you what you need, there will always be someone else who can. There is some great info here from a recent conference: http://www4.gsb.columbia.edu/citi/events/summit2008 Take a look at the slides. I like the reference to the slide where it breaks down how much bandwidth utilization there is expected to be per household: 35+ Mbps (and those are numbers from 2006!) 4 VoIP lines @ 100Kbps 2 SDTVs @ 2Mbps 2 HDTVs @ 9 Mbps 1 Gaming device @ 1Mbps 1 High Spedd Internet @ 10Mbps Scary how quickly it adds up :) My favorite quote: ³By the year 2010 bandwidth for 20 homes will generate more traffic than entire Internet in 1995² -d On 11/24/08 12:24 AM, Butch Evans [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sun, 23 Nov 2008, Travis Johnson wrote: It will be interesting to see how this plays out... the amount of bandwidth required to sustain this type of service is not cost effective. My upstream costs alone are over $50/Mbps. So if someone wants to run a constant 2Mbps stream, my raw cost is $100 per month (not including backhaul, support, AP costs, etc.). Wait until people realize that this type of service isn't going to be free as they think now when they get a $150/month internet bill, the $40 for DishTV will look
[WISPA] Customer issue - data stream halts, can't email
I have a customer running behind a Trango 900 radio. She explains that many web pages (those heavy with images) never fully load and neither of her two email accounts work (using Outlook, the outgoing message just sits in the outbox). I have thousands of pings to this radio from the core router and only lost a few (99.99% returned). The customer is only there for a short time so it's difficult to get any worth while packet captures. They're currently on a Linksys WRT54g and I put in a MikroTik RB433 and 2.4 card - the issue remained. I have swapped both of the radios - AP and SU (as they're the only subscriber on this AP). Thanks in advance for any suggestions! Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 Those who don't understand UNIX are condemned to reinvent it, poorly. --- Henry Spencer WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information
You have hit the problem directly on the head. You think a simple Canopy AP is going to solve the problem? Let's say you are allocating 10Mbps downlink on this AP... that would mean 5 customers per AP (@ 2Mbps each). Nobody in this market can survive on those ratios. This service needs capped and people that want it can pay for video streaming which is $100/month extra... that would be my vote. Exactly my thought but it even gets worse. Say they find out its to expensive to stream the video on there own dime. You know bandwidth still costs the content providers something though much cheaper then us. So they switch to p2p. Your ap set a 75% downstream only has ~2.5mbps upstream. Lets not forget NLOS 900mhz custommers as well. Its just ugly no matter how you look at it. Tower rent for additional antenna slots, equipment costs, backhauls capable of 200mbps instead of 10mbps. Limited frequencies. Matt WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information
I think we will eventually see people just leave constant streams open day and night. How many of you leave your TV on much of the time whether you are watching it or not? This throws off the over-subscription model which relates to how many people are using the service at one time. When we start seeing all channels available at all times via Internet with some common interface (Netflix, Tivo, Windows Media Player, Real Player, Quicktime, etc.) then we will have this problem to contend with as well. I hope content providers start making all of their content interactive such that viewers have to click something (like ads) from time to time to maintain the free TV service. This would help them to sell their ads at a premium and would provide an automatic off button for the stream when people walk away from the TV and do not click something once in a while to prove they are watching the content and commercials. Scriv On Mon, Nov 24, 2008 at 8:46 AM, Chuck McCown - 3 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think the canopy 450 will do something like 30 down and 10 up. So that could give you 20 simultaneously which statistically could work if you had 50-100 on an AP. - Original Message - From: Travis Johnson To: WISPA General List Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 7:30 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information You have hit the problem directly on the head. You think a simple Canopy AP is going to solve the problem? Let's say you are allocating 10Mbps downlink on this AP... that would mean 5 customers per AP (@ 2Mbps each). Nobody in this market can survive on those ratios. This service needs capped and people that want it can pay for video streaming which is $100/month extra... that would be my vote. Travis Microserv Drew Lentz wrote: In areas like yours, though, some would argue that is the perfect place for some type of licensed LTE/WiMAX type of service. Even with a Canopy type service it would beat down the doors of the telco offering only 3Mbps of service. As more and more devices have bandwidth requirements, the service providers will fall into line, I believe. Everyone has always pushed for more bandwidth, but it as always come from the customers as opposed to the devices. It seems like now, the device requirements will leave the customer with no choice and force them into a decision of higher consumption. As far as furthering the digital divide, I don't think it will hurt it all that bad. On the contrary what would be nice to see is the communications mediums becoming less expensive because of the amount of services required. Just like the price of bandwidth has changed over the years, I think it will continue to drop. I would love to see some research data on the cost per MB over the last 10 years and see what the trend is like. That combined with less expensive and functional equipment (UBNT's Bullet, the introduction of Mikrotik years ago, for examples) gives operators the ability to put more bandwidth than before in users hands at a fraction of the cost. I think more than anything it will come down to a backhaul battle. Fiber to the node, fiber to the AP, high capacity microwave links (Bridgewave, Dragonwave, Ceragon, etc) These are all going to be critically important to aggregate and transport these huge amounts of data. On 11/24/08 1:06 AM, Scottie Arnett [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It will further the digital divide. Rural remote locations will be again left in the boon docks. Where I live, 3 meg DSL is the fastest available connection at $75/mth. Cheapest T1 here is over $600/mth, and fiber? forget it, can't get it unless you want to build about 4 towers just to backhaul, or pay $1200/mth for each cell tower to put them on. Why should the small ISP's foot the bill for Netflix and these companies that are making million's of dollars more than we are? Scottie -- Original Message -- From: Drew Lentz [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 00:41:41 -0600 I'm all for open systems. Limiting the amount of bandwidth at any level is, to me, a terrible thing to do. I understand that it doesn't necessarily fit the model as it applies to today's business for many ISPs, but, maybe its time to change the model. This is where the separation of providers starts to take shape. The networks that can handle these loads and supply the end-user are going to win the customers. I honestly think the demand of large scale bandwidth is going to be fed to the end-user by the consumer electronics market. Look at CES last year. Look how many devices demand connectivity at certain levels. If your current service provider can't get you what you need, there will always be someone else who can. There is some great info here from a recent conference: http://www4.gsb.columbia.edu/citi/events/summit2008 Take a
Re: [WISPA] Customer issue - data stream halts, can't email
Cat 5 cable is marginal or connector is not crimped tight. Josh Luthman wrote: I have a customer running behind a Trango 900 radio. She explains that many web pages (those heavy with images) never fully load and neither of her two email accounts work (using Outlook, the outgoing message just sits in the outbox). I have thousands of pings to this radio from the core router and only lost a few (99.99% returned). The customer is only there for a short time so it's difficult to get any worth while packet captures. They're currently on a Linksys WRT54g and I put in a MikroTik RB433 and 2.4 card - the issue remained. I have swapped both of the radios - AP and SU (as they're the only subscriber on this AP). Thanks in advance for any suggestions! Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 Those who don't understand UNIX are condemned to reinvent it, poorly. --- Henry Spencer WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.9/1808 - Release Date: 11/23/2008 6:59 PM -- Scott Reed Owner NewWays Networking, LLC Wireless Networking Network Design, Installation and Administration Mikrotik Advanced Certified www.nwwnet.net (765) 855-1060 WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information
Can anyone provide the ASN the streams come from? - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: Dennis Burgess [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, November 23, 2008 3:42 PM To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information In case you did not know, recently NetFlix and Microsoft teamed up to provide video on-demand services to all of the XBox 360 users. Not only can you start one of 12,000 videos in a matter of seconds on your computer, but you can also do this right on your Xbox 360, bringing it mainstream for many who have never used it. Not to mention the super low cost of basically $9 bucks a month! I have been using it for a few weeks and since it came out on the XBox 360 last Wednesday, I have streamed GIGs. Soon as you hear, gigs, you may be interested to know what is required to maintain a high-end video stream. So, I put together some numbers for everyone, in case you are interested in how much bandwidth this service uses! A You can see my data at http://www.linktechs.net/netflix.asp. Feel free to shoot me a e-mail off-list if you have any questions! -- * Dennis Burgess, CCNA, A+, Mikrotik Certified Trainer Link Technologies, Inc -- Mikrotik WISP Support Services* 314-735-0270 http://www.linktechs.net http://www.linktechs.net/ */ Link Technologies, Inc is offering LIVE Mikrotik On-Line Training http://www.linktechs.net/onlinetraining.asp/* WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Customer issue - data stream halts, can't email
Josh, Can you have the Mikrotik ping your core? (it sounds like you have only done the other direction) Also, try full size ping packets. Sometimes short packets are fine, and big ones cause failures. After having a batch of bad consumer wifi routers, I have started hooking up a few people directly to the radio (if they don't need wifi). One less thing to fail. Do the Trango linktest utilities check out OK? Finally, the problem could be her computer. I suppose it is windows? Virus scan, etc but personally I don't trust *any* windows computer that hasn't been freshly installed. -John On Nov 24, 2008, at 10:39 AM, Josh Luthman wrote: I have a customer running behind a Trango 900 radio. She explains that many web pages (those heavy with images) never fully load and neither of her two email accounts work (using Outlook, the outgoing message just sits in the outbox). I have thousands of pings to this radio from the core router and only lost a few (99.99% returned). The customer is only there for a short time so it's difficult to get any worth while packet captures. They're currently on a Linksys WRT54g and I put in a MikroTik RB433 and 2.4 card - the issue remained. I have swapped both of the radios - AP and SU (as they're the only subscriber on this AP). Thanks in advance for any suggestions! WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Customer issue - data stream halts, can't email
The Mikrotik could ping the core, however, the customer put their Linksys back in place. This customer does need WiFi, unfortunately, they prefer the Linksys over the Mikrotik. Out of 200 pings so far I've lost 1 and 1 jumped in latency. Trango's loopback test (sends frames/packets back and forth to see how many are dropped) was 100% successful. They are 0.1 miles away with a -51 rssi. I'm sorry I forgot to mention there are multiple PCs (4 IIRC) with the same issue - same email providers - which do work on other Internet connections. Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 Those who don't understand UNIX are condemned to reinvent it, poorly. --- Henry Spencer On Mon, Nov 24, 2008 at 12:07 PM, John Valenti [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Josh, Can you have the Mikrotik ping your core? (it sounds like you have only done the other direction) Also, try full size ping packets. Sometimes short packets are fine, and big ones cause failures. After having a batch of bad consumer wifi routers, I have started hooking up a few people directly to the radio (if they don't need wifi). One less thing to fail. Do the Trango linktest utilities check out OK? Finally, the problem could be her computer. I suppose it is windows? Virus scan, etc but personally I don't trust *any* windows computer that hasn't been freshly installed. -John On Nov 24, 2008, at 10:39 AM, Josh Luthman wrote: I have a customer running behind a Trango 900 radio. She explains that many web pages (those heavy with images) never fully load and neither of her two email accounts work (using Outlook, the outgoing message just sits in the outbox). I have thousands of pings to this radio from the core router and only lost a few (99.99% returned). The customer is only there for a short time so it's difficult to get any worth while packet captures. They're currently on a Linksys WRT54g and I put in a MikroTik RB433 and 2.4 card - the issue remained. I have swapped both of the radios - AP and SU (as they're the only subscriber on this AP). Thanks in advance for any suggestions! WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Customer issue - data stream halts, can't email
Switchport the AP is connected to? Bad cabling at the SM or AP? Bad power supply on the SM or AP? __ Jerry Richardson airCloud Communications -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Josh Luthman Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 9:19 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Customer issue - data stream halts, can't email The Mikrotik could ping the core, however, the customer put their Linksys back in place. This customer does need WiFi, unfortunately, they prefer the Linksys over the Mikrotik. Out of 200 pings so far I've lost 1 and 1 jumped in latency. Trango's loopback test (sends frames/packets back and forth to see how many are dropped) was 100% successful. They are 0.1 miles away with a -51 rssi. I'm sorry I forgot to mention there are multiple PCs (4 IIRC) with the same issue - same email providers - which do work on other Internet connections. Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 Those who don't understand UNIX are condemned to reinvent it, poorly. --- Henry Spencer On Mon, Nov 24, 2008 at 12:07 PM, John Valenti [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Josh, Can you have the Mikrotik ping your core? (it sounds like you have only done the other direction) Also, try full size ping packets. Sometimes short packets are fine, and big ones cause failures. After having a batch of bad consumer wifi routers, I have started hooking up a few people directly to the radio (if they don't need wifi). One less thing to fail. Do the Trango linktest utilities check out OK? Finally, the problem could be her computer. I suppose it is windows? Virus scan, etc but personally I don't trust *any* windows computer that hasn't been freshly installed. -John On Nov 24, 2008, at 10:39 AM, Josh Luthman wrote: I have a customer running behind a Trango 900 radio. She explains that many web pages (those heavy with images) never fully load and neither of her two email accounts work (using Outlook, the outgoing message just sits in the outbox). I have thousands of pings to this radio from the core router and only lost a few (99.99% returned). The customer is only there for a short time so it's difficult to get any worth while packet captures. They're currently on a Linksys WRT54g and I put in a MikroTik RB433 and 2.4 card - the issue remained. I have swapped both of the radios - AP and SU (as they're the only subscriber on this AP). Thanks in advance for any suggestions! -- -- WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ -- -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information
OK, then buy a Canopy 430. - Original Message - From: Mike Hammett [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 10:31 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information rantThis is why we need gear capable of higher throughputs. Too many WISPs out there don't press their manufacturers. They'd rather just put up a couple Canopy radios and complain on a list about how they can't deliver X, Y, or Z to a customer. I have complained to manufacturers. WiMAX is NOT the answer we are looking for. Most of the gear being released in the US is using small channel sizes, so small throughput. I will not purchase another AP unless it is able to deliver 40 mbit of throughput, end of story. Fortunately for me, they're out there... Mikrotik can (though uses a lot of spectrum). Deliberant is working on it. I believe the new Canopy is close. Orthogon can do 300 mbit in 30 MHz... expensive, but it can be done. Where are the engineers at the other companies? Where are the PtMP products? I haven't purchased any of their products, but from what I hear, Deliberant is going to do 70 mbit in 20 MHz by spring. Not as good as Orthogon, but a lot better than anyone else out there. 20 MHz of WiMAX could produce acceptable speeds, but no one is doing it. sarcasmBuying an $8k WiMAX AP that only does 15 megabit sounds like a great idea!/sarcasmI could MAYBE see $8k for a TV whitespaces AP that supported bonding of several channels (say 4 or 5)... In 3650 or 5 gig, no thanks. Where has the innovation in the last few years gone?/rant - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: Dennis Burgess [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, November 23, 2008 3:42 PM To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information In case you did not know, recently NetFlix and Microsoft teamed up to provide video on-demand services to all of the XBox 360 users. Not only can you start one of 12,000 videos in a matter of seconds on your computer, but you can also do this right on your Xbox 360, bringing it mainstream for many who have never used it. Not to mention the super low cost of basically $9 bucks a month! I have been using it for a few weeks and since it came out on the XBox 360 last Wednesday, I have streamed GIGs. Soon as you hear, gigs, you may be interested to know what is required to maintain a high-end video stream. So, I put together some numbers for everyone, in case you are interested in how much bandwidth this service uses! A You can see my data at http://www.linktechs.net/netflix.asp. Feel free to shoot me a e-mail off-list if you have any questions! -- * Dennis Burgess, CCNA, A+, Mikrotik Certified Trainer Link Technologies, Inc -- Mikrotik WISP Support Services* 314-735-0270 http://www.linktechs.net http://www.linktechs.net/ */ Link Technologies, Inc is offering LIVE Mikrotik On-Line Training http://www.linktechs.net/onlinetraining.asp/* WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information
Maybe I will, but there's how many vendors out there and only 2 (Mikrotik with an Atheros radio and Motorola) have a product out there that is anywhere close to what we need these days. When I first started in this industry (which many of you have been here longer than I), the thought that a radio could do 300 mbit in 30 MHz was crazy. Well, we got that 4 years ago (WAG). The marginal devices of tomorrow are the crazy ideas of today. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: Chuck McCown [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 11:39 AM To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information OK, then buy a Canopy 430. - Original Message - From: Mike Hammett [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 10:31 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information rantThis is why we need gear capable of higher throughputs. Too many WISPs out there don't press their manufacturers. They'd rather just put up a couple Canopy radios and complain on a list about how they can't deliver X, Y, or Z to a customer. I have complained to manufacturers. WiMAX is NOT the answer we are looking for. Most of the gear being released in the US is using small channel sizes, so small throughput. I will not purchase another AP unless it is able to deliver 40 mbit of throughput, end of story. Fortunately for me, they're out there... Mikrotik can (though uses a lot of spectrum). Deliberant is working on it. I believe the new Canopy is close. Orthogon can do 300 mbit in 30 MHz... expensive, but it can be done. Where are the engineers at the other companies? Where are the PtMP products? I haven't purchased any of their products, but from what I hear, Deliberant is going to do 70 mbit in 20 MHz by spring. Not as good as Orthogon, but a lot better than anyone else out there. 20 MHz of WiMAX could produce acceptable speeds, but no one is doing it. sarcasmBuying an $8k WiMAX AP that only does 15 megabit sounds like a great idea!/sarcasmI could MAYBE see $8k for a TV whitespaces AP that supported bonding of several channels (say 4 or 5)... In 3650 or 5 gig, no thanks. Where has the innovation in the last few years gone?/rant - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: Dennis Burgess [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, November 23, 2008 3:42 PM To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information In case you did not know, recently NetFlix and Microsoft teamed up to provide video on-demand services to all of the XBox 360 users. Not only can you start one of 12,000 videos in a matter of seconds on your computer, but you can also do this right on your Xbox 360, bringing it mainstream for many who have never used it. Not to mention the super low cost of basically $9 bucks a month! I have been using it for a few weeks and since it came out on the XBox 360 last Wednesday, I have streamed GIGs. Soon as you hear, gigs, you may be interested to know what is required to maintain a high-end video stream. So, I put together some numbers for everyone, in case you are interested in how much bandwidth this service uses! A You can see my data at http://www.linktechs.net/netflix.asp. Feel free to shoot me a e-mail off-list if you have any questions! -- * Dennis Burgess, CCNA, A+, Mikrotik Certified Trainer Link Technologies, Inc -- Mikrotik WISP Support Services* 314-735-0270 http://www.linktechs.net http://www.linktechs.net/ */ Link Technologies, Inc is offering LIVE Mikrotik On-Line Training http://www.linktechs.net/onlinetraining.asp/* WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
Re: [WISPA] Customer issue - data stream halts, can't email
The switch, AP, SM/SU and power supplies have all been replaced. Cabling has not been changed, though. Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 Those who don't understand UNIX are condemned to reinvent it, poorly. --- Henry Spencer On Mon, Nov 24, 2008 at 12:30 PM, Jerry Richardson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Switchport the AP is connected to? Bad cabling at the SM or AP? Bad power supply on the SM or AP? __ Jerry Richardson airCloud Communications -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Josh Luthman Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 9:19 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Customer issue - data stream halts, can't email The Mikrotik could ping the core, however, the customer put their Linksys back in place. This customer does need WiFi, unfortunately, they prefer the Linksys over the Mikrotik. Out of 200 pings so far I've lost 1 and 1 jumped in latency. Trango's loopback test (sends frames/packets back and forth to see how many are dropped) was 100% successful. They are 0.1 miles away with a -51 rssi. I'm sorry I forgot to mention there are multiple PCs (4 IIRC) with the same issue - same email providers - which do work on other Internet connections. Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 Those who don't understand UNIX are condemned to reinvent it, poorly. --- Henry Spencer On Mon, Nov 24, 2008 at 12:07 PM, John Valenti [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Josh, Can you have the Mikrotik ping your core? (it sounds like you have only done the other direction) Also, try full size ping packets. Sometimes short packets are fine, and big ones cause failures. After having a batch of bad consumer wifi routers, I have started hooking up a few people directly to the radio (if they don't need wifi). One less thing to fail. Do the Trango linktest utilities check out OK? Finally, the problem could be her computer. I suppose it is windows? Virus scan, etc but personally I don't trust *any* windows computer that hasn't been freshly installed. -John On Nov 24, 2008, at 10:39 AM, Josh Luthman wrote: I have a customer running behind a Trango 900 radio. She explains that many web pages (those heavy with images) never fully load and neither of her two email accounts work (using Outlook, the outgoing message just sits in the outbox). I have thousands of pings to this radio from the core router and only lost a few (99.99% returned). The customer is only there for a short time so it's difficult to get any worth while packet captures. They're currently on a Linksys WRT54g and I put in a MikroTik RB433 and 2.4 card - the issue remained. I have swapped both of the radios - AP and SU (as they're the only subscriber on this AP). Thanks in advance for any suggestions! -- -- WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ -- -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information
rantThis is why we need gear capable of higher throughputs. Too many WISPs out there don't press their manufacturers. They'd rather just put up a couple Canopy radios and complain on a list about how they can't deliver X, Y, or Z to a customer. I have complained to manufacturers. WiMAX is NOT the answer we are looking for. Most of the gear being released in the US is using small channel sizes, so small throughput. I will not purchase another AP unless it is able to deliver 40 mbit of throughput, end of story. Fortunately for me, they're out there... Mikrotik can (though uses a lot of spectrum). Deliberant is working on it. I believe the new Canopy is close. Orthogon can do 300 mbit in 30 MHz... expensive, but it can be done. Where are the engineers at the other companies? Where are the PtMP products? I haven't purchased any of their products, but from what I hear, Deliberant is going to do 70 mbit in 20 MHz by spring. Not as good as Orthogon, but a lot better than anyone else out there. 20 MHz of WiMAX could produce acceptable speeds, but no one is doing it. sarcasmBuying an $8k WiMAX AP that only does 15 megabit sounds like a great idea!/sarcasmI could MAYBE see $8k for a TV whitespaces AP that supported bonding of several channels (say 4 or 5)... In 3650 or 5 gig, no thanks. Where has the innovation in the last few years gone?/rant - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: Dennis Burgess [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, November 23, 2008 3:42 PM To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information In case you did not know, recently NetFlix and Microsoft teamed up to provide video on-demand services to all of the XBox 360 users. Not only can you start one of 12,000 videos in a matter of seconds on your computer, but you can also do this right on your Xbox 360, bringing it mainstream for many who have never used it. Not to mention the super low cost of basically $9 bucks a month! I have been using it for a few weeks and since it came out on the XBox 360 last Wednesday, I have streamed GIGs. Soon as you hear, gigs, you may be interested to know what is required to maintain a high-end video stream. So, I put together some numbers for everyone, in case you are interested in how much bandwidth this service uses! A You can see my data at http://www.linktechs.net/netflix.asp. Feel free to shoot me a e-mail off-list if you have any questions! -- * Dennis Burgess, CCNA, A+, Mikrotik Certified Trainer Link Technologies, Inc -- Mikrotik WISP Support Services* 314-735-0270 http://www.linktechs.net http://www.linktechs.net/ */ Link Technologies, Inc is offering LIVE Mikrotik On-Line Training http://www.linktechs.net/onlinetraining.asp/* WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information
I read about a model somewhere that might work. The content providers paid the ISP a percentage for delivery of the content. Now I might could live with that if the economics worked out. Scottie -- Original Message -- From: John Scrivner [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 10:11:04 -0600 I think we will eventually see people just leave constant streams open day and night. How many of you leave your TV on much of the time whether you are watching it or not? This throws off the over-subscription model which relates to how many people are using the service at one time. When we start seeing all channels available at all times via Internet with some common interface (Netflix, Tivo, Windows Media Player, Real Player, Quicktime, etc.) then we will have this problem to contend with as well. I hope content providers start making all of their content interactive such that viewers have to click something (like ads) from time to time to maintain the free TV service. This would help them to sell their ads at a premium and would provide an automatic off button for the stream when people walk away from the TV and do not click something once in a while to prove they are watching the content and commercials. Scriv On Mon, Nov 24, 2008 at 8:46 AM, Chuck McCown - 3 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think the canopy 450 will do something like 30 down and 10 up. So that could give you 20 simultaneously which statistically could work if you had 50-100 on an AP. - Original Message - From: Travis Johnson To: WISPA General List Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 7:30 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information You have hit the problem directly on the head. You think a simple Canopy AP is going to solve the problem? Let's say you are allocating 10Mbps downlink on this AP... that would mean 5 customers per AP (@ 2Mbps each). Nobody in this market can survive on those ratios. This service needs capped and people that want it can pay for video streaming which is $100/month extra... that would be my vote. Travis Microserv Drew Lentz wrote: In areas like yours, though, some would argue that is the perfect place for some type of licensed LTE/WiMAX type of service. Even with a Canopy type service it would beat down the doors of the telco offering only 3Mbps of service. As more and more devices have bandwidth requirements, the service providers will fall into line, I believe. Everyone has always pushed for more bandwidth, but it as always come from the customers as opposed to the devices. It seems like now, the device requirements will leave the customer with no choice and force them into a decision of higher consumption. As far as furthering the digital divide, I don't think it will hurt it all that bad. On the contrary what would be nice to see is the communications mediums becoming less expensive because of the amount of services required. Just like the price of bandwidth has changed over the years, I think it will continue to drop. I would love to see some research data on the cost per MB over the last 10 years and see what the trend is like. That combined with less expensive and functional equipment (UBNT's Bullet, the introduction of Mikrotik years ago, for examples) gives operators the ability to put more bandwidth than before in users hands at a fraction of the cost. I think more than anything it will come down to a backhaul battle. Fiber to the node, fiber to the AP, high capacity microwave links (Bridgewave, Dragonwave, Ceragon, etc) These are all going to be critically important to aggregate and transport these huge amounts of data. On 11/24/08 1:06 AM, Scottie Arnett [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It will further the digital divide. Rural remote locations will be again left in the boon docks. Where I live, 3 meg DSL is the fastest available connection at $75/mth. Cheapest T1 here is over $600/mth, and fiber? forget it, can't get it unless you want to build about 4 towers just to backhaul, or pay $1200/mth for each cell tower to put them on. Why should the small ISP's foot the bill for Netflix and these companies that are making million's of dollars more than we are? Scottie -- Original Message -- From: Drew Lentz [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 00:41:41 -0600 I'm all for open systems. Limiting the amount of bandwidth at any level is, to me, a terrible thing to do. I understand that it doesn't necessarily fit the model as it applies to today's business for many ISPs, but, maybe its time to change the model. This is where the separation of providers starts to take shape. The networks that can handle these loads and supply the end-user are going to win the customers. I honestly think the demand of large scale
Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information
On Mon, Nov 24, 2008 at 11:31:41AM -0600, Mike Hammett wrote: I will not purchase another AP unless it is able to deliver 40 mbit of throughput, end of story. Fortunately for me, they're out there... Mikrotik can (though uses a lot of spectrum). Deliberant is working on it. I believe the new Canopy is close. Where has the innovation in the last few years gone?/rant I too favor higher bandwidth per AP. I will keep purchasing APs though that don't meet that, I as I have customers needing to get hooked up yesterday regardless of whether some arbitrary performance requirement is met. Bandwidth of the AP does affect my purchasing decisions. I have recently deployed 3 Alvarion VL900 AUs and a bunch of SUs primarily based on their bandwidth capability and sensitivity. Trango doesn't have the range or bandwidth. Canopy has comparable range, but lesser bandwidth. It was basically a choice between Alvarion and Canopy, as Trango's promised competing MM product never made it to market. As others have noted, spectrum efficiency is also important. It's not entirely about speed. Reliability and features have come along way in the last few years. I am doing so many links where simplistic wifi gear would be useless or foolhardy. I need the software adjustments offered by Mikrotik, Alvarion, Trango that you don't or didn't get with cheapo gear. For example, ubnt can't do proper bridging with non-wep encryption, Alvarion and Trango can. ubnt can't save static routes, mikrotik can, and it doesnt' matter on Alvr/Trango. ubnt doesn't have a noise floor adjustment, something Alvarion has had since the beginning of the BA-II line, and Trango has always had too, and MT has had for quite a while. Not trying to bash ubnt, but they seem to be the better of the cheapo gear despite their shortcomings. These low priced products have improved enough to be compared at least. A few years ago, commodity based products were not usually comparable and were suited to tinkerers or small projects. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- /* Jason Philbrook | Midcoast Internet Solutions - Wireless and DSL KB1IOJ| Broadband Internet Access, Dialup, and Hosting http://f64.nu/ | for Midcoast Mainehttp://www.midcoast.com/ */ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information
Mike, There are real physical limits to the amount of throughput that a radio channel (X MHz wide) can handle. Ranting at manufacturers isn't going to change this very much. You can only flow so much water through a pipe. Increase the pressure without increasing the pipe diameter and the pipe bursts. This issue is physics-based so ranting may make you feel better but when you're done, the same physical constraints remain. This is why having enough spectrum space (enough channels) is so important. Bottom line is WISPs don't have enough spectrum space to deliver all that throughput reliably to all those customers without creating interference for every other network operator out there. jack Mike Hammett wrote: rantThis is why we need gear capable of higher throughputs. Too many WISPs out there don't press their manufacturers. They'd rather just put up a couple Canopy radios and complain on a list about how they can't deliver X, Y, or Z to a customer. I have complained to manufacturers. WiMAX is NOT the answer we are looking for. Most of the gear being released in the US is using small channel sizes, so small throughput. I will not purchase another AP unless it is able to deliver 40 mbit of throughput, end of story. Fortunately for me, they're out there... Mikrotik can (though uses a lot of spectrum). Deliberant is working on it. I believe the new Canopy is close. Orthogon can do 300 mbit in 30 MHz... expensive, but it can be done. Where are the engineers at the other companies? Where are the PtMP products? I haven't purchased any of their products, but from what I hear, Deliberant is going to do 70 mbit in 20 MHz by spring. Not as good as Orthogon, but a lot better than anyone else out there. 20 MHz of WiMAX could produce acceptable speeds, but no one is doing it. sarcasmBuying an $8k WiMAX AP that only does 15 megabit sounds like a great idea!/sarcasmI could MAYBE see $8k for a TV whitespaces AP that supported bonding of several channels (say 4 or 5)... In 3650 or 5 gig, no thanks. Where has the innovation in the last few years gone?/rant - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: Dennis Burgess [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, November 23, 2008 3:42 PM To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information In case you did not know, recently NetFlix and Microsoft teamed up to provide video on-demand services to all of the XBox 360 users. Not only can you start one of 12,000 videos in a matter of seconds on your computer, but you can also do this right on your Xbox 360, bringing it mainstream for many who have never used it. Not to mention the super low cost of basically $9 bucks a month! I have been using it for a few weeks and since it came out on the XBox 360 last Wednesday, I have streamed GIGs. Soon as you hear, gigs, you may be interested to know what is required to maintain a high-end video stream. So, I put together some numbers for everyone, in case you are interested in how much bandwidth this service uses! A You can see my data at http://www.linktechs.net/netflix.asp. Feel free to shoot me a e-mail off-list if you have any questions! -- * Dennis Burgess, CCNA, A+, Mikrotik Certified Trainer Link Technologies, Inc -- Mikrotik WISP Support Services* 314-735-0270 http://www.linktechs.net http://www.linktechs.net/ */ Link Technologies, Inc is offering LIVE Mikrotik On-Line Training http://www.linktechs.net/onlinetraining.asp/* WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- Jack Unger - President, Ask-Wi.Com, Inc. Serving the Broadband Wireless Industry Since 1993 Cisco Press Author - Deploying License-Free Wireless WANs WISPs - Do you know where your customers are? For wireless coverage mapping see http://www.ask-wi.com/mapping FCC Lic. #PG-12-25133 LinkedIn Profile http://www.linkedin.com/in/jackunger Phone 818-227-4220 Email [EMAIL PROTECTED] WISPA Wants You! Join today!
Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information
Here's my two cents on the subject. I've been reading everyone's posts and I think you all have good insight. Interesting enough, I started as a teenager back in the early 80's selling satellite dishes (the large big ugly ones) to people in residential areas and got quite a kick out of delivering crystal clear video anywhere the customer was. Fast forward to today and TiVo and similar DVR based systems are expected by the consumer. I.E. Content on demand. IMO. This could go two ways. Either satellite based IP delivery (one-way) with content being distributed (PMP) to consumer based IP DVR's whenever either the satellite operator allows the download or the network releases them. Thus, let's say you subscribe to Chuck on NBC (watch out for future fees). The network releases the episode and the operator (satellite or cable for that matter of fact) does a PMP download stream to the customer's DVR. Thus the consumer watches the show on their schedule (not the network's). The second way of course, is our industry and delivery of video content via the Internet and IP. As a service provider we will be in the same shoes as the cable or satellite company in the future. I.E. The management of bandwidth on our networks and most importantly how to charge/control it. On-demand content being streamed on a unicast basis is the most detrimental to the network and it's resources (because of the one to one relationship of the server and client). As some suggest being able to limit Netflix type bandwidth is key. On the flipside being able to develop and deliver a product that actually can deliver dedicated bandwidth (for that stream) is the opportunity. On our network today, in order to deliver that dedicated stream (and product) to the customer premise we don't have the necessary QOS in place. However, WiMax does do QOS and it may be possible to create a QOS tier for muliple layers of QOS. Of course the rest of the network needs to have enough capacity/overhead to support the bandwidth. Where WiMax is today and I agree, is that we're only about 3-1 on the efficiency side of bandwidth throughput. If you watch the cell industry a lot of development is happening on LTE in comparison to WiMax (Verizon is about 12-18 mos out for this upgrade). Of course in that time hopefully WiMax (in the next generation) will hope over LTE (in bandwidth) and on we go. Until we figure out (as an industry) how to do real multicast all the way through from the content provider, through the ISP, and to the consumer's DVR based IP device we will have to struggle with network bandwidth management issues. Thus, as in the satellite or cable model above, the content will need to be released at off-peak times to be stored locally by the IP DVR and then watched as the consumer has time. We are living in a world of content on my time and the days of a network schedule are soon to be replaced by the download or stream. Intersting times indeed to be a distribution network provider. We've got a lot of work to do to prepare... Todd Todd Brandenburg PocketiNet Communications, Inc. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of John Scrivner Sent: 2008-11-24 08:11 To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information I think we will eventually see people just leave constant streams open day and night. How many of you leave your TV on much of the time whether you are watching it or not? This throws off the over-subscription model which relates to how many people are using the service at one time. When we start seeing all channels available at all times via Internet with some common interface (Netflix, Tivo, Windows Media Player, Real Player, Quicktime, etc.) then we will have this problem to contend with as well. I hope content providers start making all of their content interactive such that viewers have to click something (like ads) from time to time to maintain the free TV service. This would help them to sell their ads at a premium and would provide an automatic off button for the stream when people walk away from the TV and do not click something once in a while to prove they are watching the content and commercials. Scriv On Mon, Nov 24, 2008 at 8:46 AM, Chuck McCown - 3 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think the canopy 450 will do something like 30 down and 10 up. So that could give you 20 simultaneously which statistically could work if you had 50-100 on an AP. - Original Message - From: Travis Johnson To: WISPA General List Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 7:30 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information You have hit the problem directly on the head. You think a simple Canopy AP is going to solve the problem? Let's say you are allocating 10Mbps downlink on this AP... that would mean 5 customers per AP (@ 2Mbps each). Nobody in this market can survive on those
Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information
There is a limit to physics, yes. However, we obviously have not met that if some manufacturers can produce products that do it. MT N-Streme can do up to 2.25 bit/Hz throughput. Orthogon Spectra can do 10 bit/Hz, though I don't know if that's radio traffic or throughput. As it turns out, the Moto 400 series is only 21 megabit of throughput (according to their own marketing material), so that wouldn't qualify, but does 2.1 bit/Hz. WiMAX is around 2.5 bit/Hz, but is only available in tiny channels. 802.11n is available in cheap gear and does about 2.5 bit/Hz. The same arguments were used 10 years ago, but we've innovated and gotten past the previous barriers of physics. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: Jack Unger [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 12:10 PM To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information Mike, There are real physical limits to the amount of throughput that a radio channel (X MHz wide) can handle. Ranting at manufacturers isn't going to change this very much. You can only flow so much water through a pipe. Increase the pressure without increasing the pipe diameter and the pipe bursts. This issue is physics-based so ranting may make you feel better but when you're done, the same physical constraints remain. This is why having enough spectrum space (enough channels) is so important. Bottom line is WISPs don't have enough spectrum space to deliver all that throughput reliably to all those customers without creating interference for every other network operator out there. jack Mike Hammett wrote: rantThis is why we need gear capable of higher throughputs. Too many WISPs out there don't press their manufacturers. They'd rather just put up a couple Canopy radios and complain on a list about how they can't deliver X, Y, or Z to a customer. I have complained to manufacturers. WiMAX is NOT the answer we are looking for. Most of the gear being released in the US is using small channel sizes, so small throughput. I will not purchase another AP unless it is able to deliver 40 mbit of throughput, end of story. Fortunately for me, they're out there... Mikrotik can (though uses a lot of spectrum). Deliberant is working on it. I believe the new Canopy is close. Orthogon can do 300 mbit in 30 MHz... expensive, but it can be done. Where are the engineers at the other companies? Where are the PtMP products? I haven't purchased any of their products, but from what I hear, Deliberant is going to do 70 mbit in 20 MHz by spring. Not as good as Orthogon, but a lot better than anyone else out there. 20 MHz of WiMAX could produce acceptable speeds, but no one is doing it. sarcasmBuying an $8k WiMAX AP that only does 15 megabit sounds like a great idea!/sarcasmI could MAYBE see $8k for a TV whitespaces AP that supported bonding of several channels (say 4 or 5)... In 3650 or 5 gig, no thanks. Where has the innovation in the last few years gone?/rant - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: Dennis Burgess [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, November 23, 2008 3:42 PM To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information In case you did not know, recently NetFlix and Microsoft teamed up to provide video on-demand services to all of the XBox 360 users. Not only can you start one of 12,000 videos in a matter of seconds on your computer, but you can also do this right on your Xbox 360, bringing it mainstream for many who have never used it. Not to mention the super low cost of basically $9 bucks a month! I have been using it for a few weeks and since it came out on the XBox 360 last Wednesday, I have streamed GIGs. Soon as you hear, gigs, you may be interested to know what is required to maintain a high-end video stream. So, I put together some numbers for everyone, in case you are interested in how much bandwidth this service uses! A You can see my data at http://www.linktechs.net/netflix.asp. Feel free to shoot me a e-mail off-list if you have any questions! -- * Dennis Burgess, CCNA, A+, Mikrotik Certified Trainer Link Technologies, Inc -- Mikrotik WISP Support Services* 314-735-0270 http://www.linktechs.net http://www.linktechs.net/ */ Link Technologies, Inc is offering LIVE Mikrotik On-Line Training http://www.linktechs.net/onlinetraining.asp/* WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information
Scheduled TV belongs on satellite. Satellite is the worst use for on demand, time shifting, DVR, whatever term you want to use for viewing content that the station isn't sending out at that exact moment. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com From: Travis Johnson Sent: Sunday, November 23, 2008 8:42 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information Now we just need Mikrotik to add a category like all-p2p but called all-video so I can throttle that too. :) TV belongs on satellite. It's the best use of resources. Travis Microserv Eje Gustafsson wrote: Lowest quality is so bad IMO that you do not want to watch it on full screen but watch it on a youtube size picture frame and you will have a movie that is in pare to little better then youtube. Highest quality looks like DVD quality and is quite enjoyable. Second to best is alright. The second to worst isn't that great either but good enough to watch full screen and not get to bad youtube feeling. / Eje -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Michael Baird Sent: Sunday, November 23, 2008 4:08 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information Chuck it won't work, here are some more specifics, on the codecs utilized and bandwidth requirements. The bottom two streams 500/1000k are pretty low quality. We are a facilities based CLEC and have done a bit of testing with the Roku's, for product bundles. http://blog.netflix.com/2008/11/encoding-for-streaming.html Regards Michael Baird Did I interpret your data correctly to mean that if you had a sustained 256Kbps it would work? - Original Message - From: Dennis Burgess [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, November 23, 2008 2:42 PM Subject: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information In case you did not know, recently NetFlix and Microsoft teamed up to provide video on-demand services to all of the XBox 360 users. Not only can you start one of 12,000 videos in a matter of seconds on your computer, but you can also do this right on your Xbox 360, bringing it mainstream for many who have never used it. Not to mention the super low cost of basically $9 bucks a month! I have been using it for a few weeks and since it came out on the XBox 360 last Wednesday, I have streamed GIGs. Soon as you hear, gigs, you may be interested to know what is required to maintain a high-end video stream. So, I put together some numbers for everyone, in case you are interested in how much bandwidth this service uses! A You can see my data at http://www.linktechs.net/netflix.asp. Feel free to shoot me a e-mail off-list if you have any questions! -- * Dennis Burgess, CCNA, A+, Mikrotik Certified Trainer Link Technologies, Inc -- Mikrotik WISP Support Services* 314-735-0270 http://www.linktechs.net http://www.linktechs.net/ */ Link Technologies, Inc is offering LIVE Mikrotik On-Line Training http://www.linktechs.net/onlinetraining.asp/* WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/
Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information
I couldn't imagine how the logistics of this would work. What makes sense is if your customer uses more bandwidth, then they pay for it. Everything else is just an inefficient way to do the same. Lets say you are going to charge $150/Mb/month for 95% usage (just picked a number). If the customer pays the bill for their usage 100% comes to you. Now lets say that we have come up with some efficient scheme to accurately bill the various content providers for their 'usage'. If we need $150/Mb/month and bill at that rate to say Netflix, do you think that Netflix is going to have $0 overhead on accounts payable for that bill? Do you think they are going to take a loss on that expense? So it is going to cost the end customer $150/Mb/month+$x. This cost will be averaged out to each customer based on total usage. As the service becomes more popular then the price is going to go up. Wait, doesn't this sound familiar? The problem with selling a commodity is that supply and demand laws do apply. The more the demand the less the supply. We don't get economy of scale savings in last mile on wireless gear. We have a very finite amount of bandwidth we can effectively deliver from an AP/tower. Marlon is the one ahead of the curve on this one (and all the others that have been billing based on usage already). This is most likely where we are going to end up. I don't necessarily think it will be down to $x/GB transfer it will at least be tiered service similar to cell phone plans today. Where WISPs run into the issue is in the short term. We have to survive the market until the billing model changes. Eventually Cable and Telco (and even Fiber at some point) is going to have to switch from unlimited to some form of metered (Comcast and Time Warner are already testing this model). They just have the advantage of having better last mile bandwidth than we do and they generally get better upstream pricing. Sam Tetherow Sandhills Wireless Scottie Arnett wrote: I read about a model somewhere that might work. The content providers paid the ISP a percentage for delivery of the content. Now I might could live with that if the economics worked out. Scottie -- Original Message -- From: John Scrivner [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 10:11:04 -0600 I think we will eventually see people just leave constant streams open day and night. How many of you leave your TV on much of the time whether you are watching it or not? This throws off the over-subscription model which relates to how many people are using the service at one time. When we start seeing all channels available at all times via Internet with some common interface (Netflix, Tivo, Windows Media Player, Real Player, Quicktime, etc.) then we will have this problem to contend with as well. I hope content providers start making all of their content interactive such that viewers have to click something (like ads) from time to time to maintain the free TV service. This would help them to sell their ads at a premium and would provide an automatic off button for the stream when people walk away from the TV and do not click something once in a while to prove they are watching the content and commercials. Scriv On Mon, Nov 24, 2008 at 8:46 AM, Chuck McCown - 3 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think the canopy 450 will do something like 30 down and 10 up. So that could give you 20 simultaneously which statistically could work if you had 50-100 on an AP. - Original Message - From: Travis Johnson To: WISPA General List Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 7:30 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information You have hit the problem directly on the head. You think a simple Canopy AP is going to solve the problem? Let's say you are allocating 10Mbps downlink on this AP... that would mean 5 customers per AP (@ 2Mbps each). Nobody in this market can survive on those ratios. This service needs capped and people that want it can pay for video streaming which is $100/month extra... that would be my vote. Travis Microserv Drew Lentz wrote: In areas like yours, though, some would argue that is the perfect place for some type of licensed LTE/WiMAX type of service. Even with a Canopy type service it would beat down the doors of the telco offering only 3Mbps of service. As more and more devices have bandwidth requirements, the service providers will fall into line, I believe. Everyone has always pushed for more bandwidth, but it as always come from the customers as opposed to the devices. It seems like now, the device requirements will leave the customer with no choice and force them into a decision of higher consumption. As far as furthering the digital divide, I don't think it will hurt it all that bad. On the contrary what would be nice to see
Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information
Multicast is not going to solve anything, video already has very efficient multicast it is called satellite, cable and broadcast TV. Sam Tetherow Sandhills Wireless Todd Brandenburg wrote: Here's my two cents on the subject. I've been reading everyone's posts and I think you all have good insight. Interesting enough, I started as a teenager back in the early 80's selling satellite dishes (the large big ugly ones) to people in residential areas and got quite a kick out of delivering crystal clear video anywhere the customer was. Fast forward to today and TiVo and similar DVR based systems are expected by the consumer. I.E. Content on demand. IMO. This could go two ways. Either satellite based IP delivery (one-way) with content being distributed (PMP) to consumer based IP DVR's whenever either the satellite operator allows the download or the network releases them. Thus, let's say you subscribe to Chuck on NBC (watch out for future fees). The network releases the episode and the operator (satellite or cable for that matter of fact) does a PMP download stream to the customer's DVR. Thus the consumer watches the show on their schedule (not the network's). The second way of course, is our industry and delivery of video content via the Internet and IP. As a service provider we will be in the same shoes as the cable or satellite company in the future. I.E. The management of bandwidth on our networks and most importantly how to charge/control it. On-demand content being streamed on a unicast basis is the most detrimental to the network and it's resources (because of the one to one relationship of the server and client). As some suggest being able to limit Netflix type bandwidth is key. On the flipside being able to develop and deliver a product that actually can deliver dedicated bandwidth (for that stream) is the opportunity. On our network today, in order to deliver that dedicated stream (and product) to the customer premise we don't have the necessary QOS in place. However, WiMax does do QOS and it may be possible to create a QOS tier for muliple layers of QOS. Of course the rest of the network needs to have enough capacity/overhead to support the bandwidth. Where WiMax is today and I agree, is that we're only about 3-1 on the efficiency side of bandwidth throughput. If you watch the cell industry a lot of development is happening on LTE in comparison to WiMax (Verizon is about 12-18 mos out for this upgrade). Of course in that time hopefully WiMax (in the next generation) will hope over LTE (in bandwidth) and on we go. Until we figure out (as an industry) how to do real multicast all the way through from the content provider, through the ISP, and to the consumer's DVR based IP device we will have to struggle with network bandwidth management issues. Thus, as in the satellite or cable model above, the content will need to be released at off-peak times to be stored locally by the IP DVR and then watched as the consumer has time. We are living in a world of content on my time and the days of a network schedule are soon to be replaced by the download or stream. Intersting times indeed to be a distribution network provider. We've got a lot of work to do to prepare... Todd Todd Brandenburg PocketiNet Communications, Inc. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of John Scrivner Sent: 2008-11-24 08:11 To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information I think we will eventually see people just leave constant streams open day and night. How many of you leave your TV on much of the time whether you are watching it or not? This throws off the over-subscription model which relates to how many people are using the service at one time. When we start seeing all channels available at all times via Internet with some common interface (Netflix, Tivo, Windows Media Player, Real Player, Quicktime, etc.) then we will have this problem to contend with as well. I hope content providers start making all of their content interactive such that viewers have to click something (like ads) from time to time to maintain the free TV service. This would help them to sell their ads at a premium and would provide an automatic off button for the stream when people walk away from the TV and do not click something once in a while to prove they are watching the content and commercials. Scriv On Mon, Nov 24, 2008 at 8:46 AM, Chuck McCown - 3 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think the canopy 450 will do something like 30 down and 10 up. So that could give you 20 simultaneously which statistically could work if you had 50-100 on an AP. - Original Message - From: Travis Johnson To: WISPA General List Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 7:30 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information
Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information
The billing model is irrelevant if the gear can't do it in the first place. You could charge $10/megabyte transferred and it would be meaningless if you can't deliver what the customer wants. Yes, the standard billing model needs to change, but using it as an artificial barrier isn't exactly the best thing to do, even if it is the only thing you can do at this time. It would be silly for fiber based networks to charge for usage at this time. They have no practical capacity limits. Go ahead, pull 100 mbit/s on your $75/month account... it costs them almost nil on a recurring basis because of 10GE connections to the CDNs... limelight, akami, Youtube, etc. Networks would rather you pull 100 megs from a CDN because of the high capacity low price links to them, instead of going over peering sessions with other networks, which usually have more contractual restriction. Let me restate the issue... There is almost zero cost in connecting to the networks that house the big bandwidth intensive sites. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: Sam Tetherow [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 12:50 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information I couldn't imagine how the logistics of this would work. What makes sense is if your customer uses more bandwidth, then they pay for it. Everything else is just an inefficient way to do the same. Lets say you are going to charge $150/Mb/month for 95% usage (just picked a number). If the customer pays the bill for their usage 100% comes to you. Now lets say that we have come up with some efficient scheme to accurately bill the various content providers for their 'usage'. If we need $150/Mb/month and bill at that rate to say Netflix, do you think that Netflix is going to have $0 overhead on accounts payable for that bill? Do you think they are going to take a loss on that expense? So it is going to cost the end customer $150/Mb/month+$x. This cost will be averaged out to each customer based on total usage. As the service becomes more popular then the price is going to go up. Wait, doesn't this sound familiar? The problem with selling a commodity is that supply and demand laws do apply. The more the demand the less the supply. We don't get economy of scale savings in last mile on wireless gear. We have a very finite amount of bandwidth we can effectively deliver from an AP/tower. Marlon is the one ahead of the curve on this one (and all the others that have been billing based on usage already). This is most likely where we are going to end up. I don't necessarily think it will be down to $x/GB transfer it will at least be tiered service similar to cell phone plans today. Where WISPs run into the issue is in the short term. We have to survive the market until the billing model changes. Eventually Cable and Telco (and even Fiber at some point) is going to have to switch from unlimited to some form of metered (Comcast and Time Warner are already testing this model). They just have the advantage of having better last mile bandwidth than we do and they generally get better upstream pricing. Sam Tetherow Sandhills Wireless Scottie Arnett wrote: I read about a model somewhere that might work. The content providers paid the ISP a percentage for delivery of the content. Now I might could live with that if the economics worked out. Scottie -- Original Message -- From: John Scrivner [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 10:11:04 -0600 I think we will eventually see people just leave constant streams open day and night. How many of you leave your TV on much of the time whether you are watching it or not? This throws off the over-subscription model which relates to how many people are using the service at one time. When we start seeing all channels available at all times via Internet with some common interface (Netflix, Tivo, Windows Media Player, Real Player, Quicktime, etc.) then we will have this problem to contend with as well. I hope content providers start making all of their content interactive such that viewers have to click something (like ads) from time to time to maintain the free TV service. This would help them to sell their ads at a premium and would provide an automatic off button for the stream when people walk away from the TV and do not click something once in a while to prove they are watching the content and commercials. Scriv On Mon, Nov 24, 2008 at 8:46 AM, Chuck McCown - 3 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think the canopy 450 will do something like 30 down and 10 up. So that could give you 20 simultaneously which statistically could work if you had 50-100 on an AP.
Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information
I agree with Mike as far as the physics limitations. Video cards for PCs are the same thing. They pushed the technology of PCI, AGP, PCI-Express before the video cards even came close to reaching the bus' capacity. Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 Those who don't understand UNIX are condemned to reinvent it, poorly. --- Henry Spencer On Mon, Nov 24, 2008 at 1:50 PM, Sam Tetherow [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I couldn't imagine how the logistics of this would work. What makes sense is if your customer uses more bandwidth, then they pay for it. Everything else is just an inefficient way to do the same. Lets say you are going to charge $150/Mb/month for 95% usage (just picked a number). If the customer pays the bill for their usage 100% comes to you. Now lets say that we have come up with some efficient scheme to accurately bill the various content providers for their 'usage'. If we need $150/Mb/month and bill at that rate to say Netflix, do you think that Netflix is going to have $0 overhead on accounts payable for that bill? Do you think they are going to take a loss on that expense? So it is going to cost the end customer $150/Mb/month+$x. This cost will be averaged out to each customer based on total usage. As the service becomes more popular then the price is going to go up. Wait, doesn't this sound familiar? The problem with selling a commodity is that supply and demand laws do apply. The more the demand the less the supply. We don't get economy of scale savings in last mile on wireless gear. We have a very finite amount of bandwidth we can effectively deliver from an AP/tower. Marlon is the one ahead of the curve on this one (and all the others that have been billing based on usage already). This is most likely where we are going to end up. I don't necessarily think it will be down to $x/GB transfer it will at least be tiered service similar to cell phone plans today. Where WISPs run into the issue is in the short term. We have to survive the market until the billing model changes. Eventually Cable and Telco (and even Fiber at some point) is going to have to switch from unlimited to some form of metered (Comcast and Time Warner are already testing this model). They just have the advantage of having better last mile bandwidth than we do and they generally get better upstream pricing. Sam Tetherow Sandhills Wireless Scottie Arnett wrote: I read about a model somewhere that might work. The content providers paid the ISP a percentage for delivery of the content. Now I might could live with that if the economics worked out. Scottie -- Original Message -- From: John Scrivner [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 10:11:04 -0600 I think we will eventually see people just leave constant streams open day and night. How many of you leave your TV on much of the time whether you are watching it or not? This throws off the over-subscription model which relates to how many people are using the service at one time. When we start seeing all channels available at all times via Internet with some common interface (Netflix, Tivo, Windows Media Player, Real Player, Quicktime, etc.) then we will have this problem to contend with as well. I hope content providers start making all of their content interactive such that viewers have to click something (like ads) from time to time to maintain the free TV service. This would help them to sell their ads at a premium and would provide an automatic off button for the stream when people walk away from the TV and do not click something once in a while to prove they are watching the content and commercials. Scriv On Mon, Nov 24, 2008 at 8:46 AM, Chuck McCown - 3 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think the canopy 450 will do something like 30 down and 10 up. So that could give you 20 simultaneously which statistically could work if you had 50-100 on an AP. - Original Message - From: Travis Johnson To: WISPA General List Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 7:30 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information You have hit the problem directly on the head. You think a simple Canopy AP is going to solve the problem? Let's say you are allocating 10Mbps downlink on this AP... that would mean 5 customers per AP (@ 2Mbps each). Nobody in this market can survive on those ratios. This service needs capped and people that want it can pay for video streaming which is $100/month extra... that would be my vote. Travis Microserv Drew Lentz wrote: In areas like yours, though, some would argue that is the perfect place for some type of licensed LTE/WiMAX type of service. Even with a Canopy type service it would beat down the doors of the
Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information
Jack, You are absolutely right about this. In the first email you asked if that had been figured in to my thinking of open unfiltered access. It has. Spectrum is a valuable resource and there is only so much of it to go around in each of the allocated frequency sets that are available today. As you said in your email: It's not a question of fitting the business model; it's a question of fitting today's current technology model. With limited license-free frequency availability, a WISP can only serve X amount of bandwidth to Y number of customers. Two points here: 1. Today's technology does limit the amount of bandwidth per AP and the amount of simultaneous subs per ap .. But that is today's technology. Although pushing the manufacturer can help this situation, it can't solve it by itself. With most Aps supporting only a 20Mb backplane, your point is very clear. With 3.65 availabity and 50 MHz of spectrum now available .. (ok, 25 for now, fair is fair) and TVWS on edge of realization, I think the spectrum will start to open up. Unless there are new modulation schemes adapted and applied to take advantage of the used and abused 2 and 5 GHz spaces, I think this is our best bet. Today's technology does have its limitations, but tomorrows will not. 2. License-free spectrum. This is not a licensed-free only issue. Now that WISPs have access to other bands available, and there have been partnership opportunities available for some in the MMDS/ITFS (BRS/EBS .. Whatever ;)) range, this takes the chains of working in unlicensed spectrum away from those who have been held by it for so long. Again, the equipment performance plays here too, but it is definetly a trend that hopefully will play out nicely. As spectrum becomes available and the devices are created and pushed to market to support the higher usage requirements of consumer products, it will start to become even more competitive in the very near future. -d On 11/24/08 12:10 PM, Jack Unger [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Mike, There are real physical limits to the amount of throughput that a radio channel (X MHz wide) can handle. Ranting at manufacturers isn't going to change this very much. You can only flow so much water through a pipe. Increase the pressure without increasing the pipe diameter and the pipe bursts. This issue is physics-based so ranting may make you feel better but when you're done, the same physical constraints remain. This is why having enough spectrum space (enough channels) is so important. Bottom line is WISPs don't have enough spectrum space to deliver all that throughput reliably to all those customers without creating interference for every other network operator out there. jack Mike Hammett wrote: rantThis is why we need gear capable of higher throughputs. Too many WISPs out there don't press their manufacturers. They'd rather just put up a couple Canopy radios and complain on a list about how they can't deliver X, Y, or Z to a customer. I have complained to manufacturers. WiMAX is NOT the answer we are looking for. Most of the gear being released in the US is using small channel sizes, so small throughput. I will not purchase another AP unless it is able to deliver 40 mbit of throughput, end of story. Fortunately for me, they're out there... Mikrotik can (though uses a lot of spectrum). Deliberant is working on it. I believe the new Canopy is close. Orthogon can do 300 mbit in 30 MHz... expensive, but it can be done. Where are the engineers at the other companies? Where are the PtMP products? I haven't purchased any of their products, but from what I hear, Deliberant is going to do 70 mbit in 20 MHz by spring. Not as good as Orthogon, but a lot better than anyone else out there. 20 MHz of WiMAX could produce acceptable speeds, but no one is doing it. sarcasmBuying an $8k WiMAX AP that only does 15 megabit sounds like a great idea!/sarcasmI could MAYBE see $8k for a TV whitespaces AP that supported bonding of several channels (say 4 or 5)... In 3650 or 5 gig, no thanks. Where has the innovation in the last few years gone?/rant - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: Dennis Burgess [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, November 23, 2008 3:42 PM To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information In case you did not know, recently NetFlix and Microsoft teamed up to provide video on-demand services to all of the XBox 360 users. Not only can you start one of 12,000 videos in a matter of seconds on your computer, but you can also do this right on your Xbox 360, bringing it mainstream for many who have never used it. Not to mention the super low cost of basically $9 bucks a month! I have been using it for a few weeks and since it came out on the XBox 360 last Wednesday, I have streamed GIGs. Soon as you
Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information
While there is progress to be made in spectrum efficiency there really is a limit of bits/Hz that can be transmitted and once we reach it the only option is to get more Hz. Hz are expensive both in terms of spectrum available (have to start buying once unlicensed is utilized) and equipment. The equipment cost is not negligible. It is possible to deliver a large amount of high quality bandwidth to a large number of customers, just ask Matt Liotta. But it is going to cost in terms of CPE and AP. You can go to the extreme of PTP links for each customer, but the link cost will be high and the tower rent will be even higher. Sam Tetherow Sandhills Wireless Drew Lentz wrote: Jack, You are absolutely right about this. In the first email you asked if that had been figured in to my thinking of open unfiltered access. It has. Spectrum is a valuable resource and there is only so much of it to go around in each of the allocated frequency sets that are available today. As you said in your email: It's not a question of fitting the business model; it's a question of fitting today's current technology model. With limited license-free frequency availability, a WISP can only serve X amount of bandwidth to Y number of customers. Two points here: 1. Today's technology does limit the amount of bandwidth per AP and the amount of simultaneous subs per ap .. But that is today's technology. Although pushing the manufacturer can help this situation, it can't solve it by itself. With most Aps supporting only a 20Mb backplane, your point is very clear. With 3.65 availabity and 50 MHz of spectrum now available .. (ok, 25 for now, fair is fair) and TVWS on edge of realization, I think the spectrum will start to open up. Unless there are new modulation schemes adapted and applied to take advantage of the used and abused 2 and 5 GHz spaces, I think this is our best bet. Today's technology does have its limitations, but tomorrows will not. 2. License-free spectrum. This is not a licensed-free only issue. Now that WISPs have access to other bands available, and there have been partnership opportunities available for some in the MMDS/ITFS (BRS/EBS .. Whatever ;)) range, this takes the chains of working in unlicensed spectrum away from those who have been held by it for so long. Again, the equipment performance plays here too, but it is definetly a trend that hopefully will play out nicely. As spectrum becomes available and the devices are created and pushed to market to support the higher usage requirements of consumer products, it will start to become even more competitive in the very near future. -d On 11/24/08 12:10 PM, Jack Unger [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Mike, There are real physical limits to the amount of throughput that a radio channel (X MHz wide) can handle. Ranting at manufacturers isn't going to change this very much. You can only flow so much water through a pipe. Increase the pressure without increasing the pipe diameter and the pipe bursts. This issue is physics-based so ranting may make you feel better but when you're done, the same physical constraints remain. This is why having enough spectrum space (enough channels) is so important. Bottom line is WISPs don't have enough spectrum space to deliver all that throughput reliably to all those customers without creating interference for every other network operator out there. jack Mike Hammett wrote: rantThis is why we need gear capable of higher throughputs. Too many WISPs out there don't press their manufacturers. They'd rather just put up a couple Canopy radios and complain on a list about how they can't deliver X, Y, or Z to a customer. I have complained to manufacturers. WiMAX is NOT the answer we are looking for. Most of the gear being released in the US is using small channel sizes, so small throughput. I will not purchase another AP unless it is able to deliver 40 mbit of throughput, end of story. Fortunately for me, they're out there... Mikrotik can (though uses a lot of spectrum). Deliberant is working on it. I believe the new Canopy is close. Orthogon can do 300 mbit in 30 MHz... expensive, but it can be done. Where are the engineers at the other companies? Where are the PtMP products? I haven't purchased any of their products, but from what I hear, Deliberant is going to do 70 mbit in 20 MHz by spring. Not as good as Orthogon, but a lot better than anyone else out there. 20 MHz of WiMAX could produce acceptable speeds, but no one is doing it. sarcasmBuying an $8k WiMAX AP that only does 15 megabit sounds like a great idea!/sarcasmI could MAYBE see $8k for a TV whitespaces AP that supported bonding of several channels (say 4 or 5)... In 3650 or 5 gig, no thanks. Where has the innovation in the last few years gone?/rant - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com
Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information
Mike Hammett wrote: The billing model is irrelevant if the gear can't do it in the first place. You could charge $10/megabyte transferred and it would be meaningless if you can't deliver what the customer wants. Wants and willing to pay for a two different things. I want a AC Cobra and I want to be able to drive it as fast I can on the highway, however I'm not ready to pay for either ;) I have always said I can deliver what the customer wants if the customer is willing to pay for it. Yes, the standard billing model needs to change, but using it as an artificial barrier isn't exactly the best thing to do, even if it is the only thing you can do at this time. I don't see how charging by the bit is an artificial barrier. Do you think charging for gas by the gallon is an artificial barrier? As ISPs we have a commodity that we sell, bandwidth. We pay a fixed price for that bandwidth and then resell that bandwidth to our customers at a markup to cover operating expense and a reasonable return on investment. Charging a customer by their actually usage is the most 'real' method of billing. In fact the unlimited model is the artificial one that is used to entice people into buying. If the customer always fully utilized their $30/month worth of bandwidth you would go broke. It would be silly for fiber based networks to charge for usage at this time. They have no practical capacity limits. Go ahead, pull 100 mbit/s on your $75/month account... it costs them almost nil on a recurring basis because of 10GE connections to the CDNs... limelight, akami, Youtube, etc. There is always a practical limit. Are you telling me that fiber providers are paying $0.75/mbit/s for their upstream? Sam Tetherow Sandhills Wireless Networks would rather you pull 100 megs from a CDN because of the high capacity low price links to them, instead of going over peering sessions with other networks, which usually have more contractual restriction. Let me restate the issue... There is almost zero cost in connecting to the networks that house the big bandwidth intensive sites. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: Sam Tetherow [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 12:50 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information I couldn't imagine how the logistics of this would work. What makes sense is if your customer uses more bandwidth, then they pay for it. Everything else is just an inefficient way to do the same. Lets say you are going to charge $150/Mb/month for 95% usage (just picked a number). If the customer pays the bill for their usage 100% comes to you. Now lets say that we have come up with some efficient scheme to accurately bill the various content providers for their 'usage'. If we need $150/Mb/month and bill at that rate to say Netflix, do you think that Netflix is going to have $0 overhead on accounts payable for that bill? Do you think they are going to take a loss on that expense? So it is going to cost the end customer $150/Mb/month+$x. This cost will be averaged out to each customer based on total usage. As the service becomes more popular then the price is going to go up. Wait, doesn't this sound familiar? The problem with selling a commodity is that supply and demand laws do apply. The more the demand the less the supply. We don't get economy of scale savings in last mile on wireless gear. We have a very finite amount of bandwidth we can effectively deliver from an AP/tower. Marlon is the one ahead of the curve on this one (and all the others that have been billing based on usage already). This is most likely where we are going to end up. I don't necessarily think it will be down to $x/GB transfer it will at least be tiered service similar to cell phone plans today. Where WISPs run into the issue is in the short term. We have to survive the market until the billing model changes. Eventually Cable and Telco (and even Fiber at some point) is going to have to switch from unlimited to some form of metered (Comcast and Time Warner are already testing this model). They just have the advantage of having better last mile bandwidth than we do and they generally get better upstream pricing. Sam Tetherow Sandhills Wireless Scottie Arnett wrote: I read about a model somewhere that might work. The content providers paid the ISP a percentage for delivery of the content. Now I might could live with that if the economics worked out. Scottie -- Original Message -- From: John Scrivner [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 10:11:04 -0600 I think we will eventually see people just leave constant
Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information
Charging a customer by their actually usage is the most 'real' method of billing. In fact the unlimited model is the artificial one that is used to entice people into buying. If the customer always fully utilized their $30/month worth of bandwidth you would go broke. That is a great point. Look at the Cell industry and the push to unlimited plans. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information
Don't forget VoIP and it's unlimited calling plan versus ATT and Verizon's several cents per minute over the last several years. Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 Those who don't understand UNIX are condemned to reinvent it, poorly. --- Henry Spencer On Mon, Nov 24, 2008 at 3:01 PM, Drew Lentz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Charging a customer by their actually usage is the most 'real' method of billing. In fact the unlimited model is the artificial one that is used to entice people into buying. If the customer always fully utilized their $30/month worth of bandwidth you would go broke. That is a great point. Look at the Cell industry and the push to unlimited plans. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information
On Mon, 24 Nov 2008, Jack Unger wrote: Being in favor of not limiting bandwidth may seem very altruistic but I'm not sure you are aware of the bandwidth/throughput limitations of todays wireless equipment used for last mile access. It's not a question of fitting the business model; it's a question of fitting today's current technology model. With limited license-free frequency Jack, you hit this EXACTLY. I was formulating my own reply around this reality when I saw this. Not much more can be added. -- * Butch Evans * Professional Network Consultation* * http://www.butchevans.com/* Network Engineering * * http://www.wispa.org/ * WISPA Board Member * * http://blog.butchevans.com/ * Wired or Wireless Networks * WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information
But that's what I am saying... I don't think you can over-subscribe streaming TV/Movies like you can internet. What happens when someone wants to watch TV and it doesn't work because there is no bandwidth available? :( Travis Chuck McCown - 3 wrote: I think the canopy 450 will do something like 30 down and 10 up. So that could give you 20 simultaneously which statistically could work if you had 50-100 on an AP. - Original Message - From: Travis Johnson To: WISPA General List Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 7:30 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information You have hit the problem directly on the head. You think a simple Canopy AP is going to solve the problem? Let's say you are allocating 10Mbps downlink on this AP... that would mean 5 customers per AP (@ 2Mbps each). Nobody in this market can survive on those ratios. This service needs capped and people that want it can pay for video streaming which is $100/month extra... that would be my vote. Travis Microserv Drew Lentz wrote: In areas like yours, though, some would argue that is the perfect place for some type of licensed LTE/WiMAX type of service. Even with a Canopy type service it would beat down the doors of the telco offering only 3Mbps of service. As more and more devices have bandwidth requirements, the service providers will fall into line, I believe. Everyone has always pushed for more bandwidth, but it as always come from the customers as opposed to the devices. It seems like now, the device requirements will leave the customer with no choice and force them into a decision of higher consumption. As far as furthering the digital divide, I don't think it will hurt it all that bad. On the contrary what would be nice to see is the communications mediums becoming less expensive because of the amount of services required. Just like the price of bandwidth has changed over the years, I think it will continue to drop. I would love to see some research data on the cost per MB over the last 10 years and see what the trend is like. That combined with less expensive and functional equipment (UBNT's Bullet, the introduction of Mikrotik years ago, for examples) gives operators the ability to put more bandwidth than before in users hands at a fraction of the cost. I think more than anything it will come down to a backhaul battle. Fiber to the node, fiber to the AP, high capacity microwave links (Bridgewave, Dragonwave, Ceragon, etc) These are all going to be critically important to aggregate and transport these huge amounts of data. On 11/24/08 1:06 AM, Scottie Arnett [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It will further the digital divide. Rural remote locations will be again left in the boon docks. Where I live, 3 meg DSL is the fastest available connection at $75/mth. Cheapest T1 here is over $600/mth, and fiber? forget it, can't get it unless you want to build about 4 towers just to backhaul, or pay $1200/mth for each cell tower to put them on. Why should the small ISP's foot the bill for Netflix and these companies that are making million's of dollars more than we are? Scottie -- Original Message -- From: Drew Lentz [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 00:41:41 -0600 I'm all for open systems. Limiting the amount of bandwidth at any level is, to me, a terrible thing to do. I understand that it doesn't necessarily fit the model as it applies to today's business for many ISPs, but, maybe its time to change the model. This is where the separation of providers starts to take shape. The networks that can handle these loads and supply the end-user are going to win the customers. I honestly think the demand of large scale bandwidth is going to be fed to the end-user by the consumer electronics market. Look at CES last year. Look how many devices demand connectivity at certain levels. If your current service provider can't get you what you need, there will always be someone else who can. There is some great info here from a recent conference: http://www4.gsb.columbia.edu/citi/events/summit2008 Take a look at the slides. I like the reference to the slide where it breaks down how much bandwidth utilization there is expected to be per household: 35+ Mbps (and those are numbers from 2006!) 4 VoIP lines @ 100Kbps 2 SDTVs @ 2Mbps 2 HDTVs @ 9 Mbps 1 Gaming device @ 1Mbps 1 High Spedd Internet @ 10Mbps Scary how quickly it adds up :) My favorite quote: ³By the year 2010 bandwidth for 20 homes will generate more traffic than entire Internet in 1995² -d On 11/24/08 12:24 AM, Butch Evans [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sun, 23 Nov 2008, Travis Johnson wrote: It will be interesting to see how this plays out... the amount of bandwidth required to sustain this type of service is not cost effective. My
Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information
Honestly, I don't ever see the model changing to metered billing. Telephone service isn't that way. Water service (in my area at least) isn't that way. And yes, some have started, but with 250GB monthly caps, it's not really even a cap. Travis Microserv Sam Tetherow wrote: I couldn't imagine how the logistics of this would work. What makes sense is if your customer uses more bandwidth, then they pay for it. Everything else is just an inefficient way to do the same. Lets say you are going to charge $150/Mb/month for 95% usage (just picked a number). If the customer pays the bill for their usage 100% comes to you. Now lets say that we have come up with some efficient scheme to accurately bill the various content providers for their 'usage'. If we need $150/Mb/month and bill at that rate to say Netflix, do you think that Netflix is going to have $0 overhead on accounts payable for that bill? Do you think they are going to take a loss on that expense? So it is going to cost the end customer $150/Mb/month+$x. This cost will be averaged out to each customer based on total usage. As the service becomes more popular then the price is going to go up. Wait, doesn't this sound familiar? The problem with selling a commodity is that supply and demand laws do apply. The more the demand the less the supply. We don't get economy of scale savings in last mile on wireless gear. We have a very finite amount of bandwidth we can effectively deliver from an AP/tower. Marlon is the one ahead of the curve on this one (and all the others that have been billing based on usage already). This is most likely where we are going to end up. I don't necessarily think it will be down to $x/GB transfer it will at least be tiered service similar to cell phone plans today. Where WISPs run into the issue is in the short term. We have to survive the market until the billing model changes. Eventually Cable and Telco (and even Fiber at some point) is going to have to switch from unlimited to some form of metered (Comcast and Time Warner are already testing this model). They just have the advantage of having better last mile bandwidth than we do and they generally get better upstream pricing. Sam Tetherow Sandhills Wireless Scottie Arnett wrote: I read about a model somewhere that might work. The content providers paid the ISP a percentage for delivery of the content. Now I might could live with that if the economics worked out. Scottie -- Original Message -- From: "John Scrivner" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 10:11:04 -0600 I think we will eventually see people just leave constant streams open day and night. How many of you leave your TV on much of the time whether you are watching it or not? This throws off the over-subscription model which relates to how many people are using the service at one time. When we start seeing all channels available at all times via Internet with some common interface (Netflix, Tivo, Windows Media Player, Real Player, Quicktime, etc.) then we will have this problem to contend with as well. I hope content providers start making all of their content interactive such that viewers have to click something (like ads) from time to time to maintain the free TV service. This would help them to sell their ads at a premium and would provide an automatic "off" button for the stream when people walk away from the "TV" and do not click something once in a while to prove they are watching the content and commercials. Scriv On Mon, Nov 24, 2008 at 8:46 AM, Chuck McCown - 3 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think the canopy 450 will do something like 30 down and 10 up. So that could give you 20 simultaneously which statistically could work if you had 50-100 on an AP. - Original Message - From: Travis Johnson To: WISPA General List Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 7:30 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information You have hit the problem directly on the head. You think a simple Canopy AP is going to solve the problem? Let's say you are allocating 10Mbps downlink on this AP... that would mean 5 customers per AP (@ 2Mbps each). Nobody in this market can survive on those ratios. This service needs capped and people that want it can pay for "video streaming" which is $100/month extra... that would be my vote. Travis Microserv Drew Lentz wrote: In areas like yours, though, some would argue that is the perfect place for some type of licensed LTE/WiMAX type of service. Even with a Canopy type service it would beat down the doors of the telco offering only 3Mbps of service. As more and more devices have bandwidth requirements, the service providers will fall into line, I believe. Everyone has always pushed for more bandwidth, but it as always come from the customers as
Re: [WISPA] Customer issue - data stream halts, can't email
First, just recrimp the ends. If that doesn't do it, replace the cable. I have had to do that twice in the last 3 months. Josh Luthman wrote: The switch, AP, SM/SU and power supplies have all been replaced. Cabling has not been changed, though. Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 Those who don't understand UNIX are condemned to reinvent it, poorly. --- Henry Spencer On Mon, Nov 24, 2008 at 12:30 PM, Jerry Richardson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Switchport the AP is connected to? Bad cabling at the SM or AP? Bad power supply on the SM or AP? __ Jerry Richardson airCloud Communications -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Josh Luthman Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 9:19 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Customer issue - data stream halts, can't email The Mikrotik could ping the core, however, the customer put their Linksys back in place. This customer does need WiFi, unfortunately, they prefer the Linksys over the Mikrotik. Out of 200 pings so far I've lost 1 and 1 jumped in latency. Trango's loopback test (sends frames/packets back and forth to see how many are dropped) was 100% successful. They are 0.1 miles away with a -51 rssi. I'm sorry I forgot to mention there are multiple PCs (4 IIRC) with the same issue - same email providers - which do work on other Internet connections. Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 Those who don't understand UNIX are condemned to reinvent it, poorly. --- Henry Spencer On Mon, Nov 24, 2008 at 12:07 PM, John Valenti [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Josh, Can you have the Mikrotik ping your core? (it sounds like you have only done the other direction) Also, try full size ping packets. Sometimes short packets are fine, and big ones cause failures. After having a batch of bad consumer wifi routers, I have started hooking up a few people directly to the radio (if they don't need wifi). One less thing to fail. Do the Trango linktest utilities check out OK? Finally, the problem could be her computer. I suppose it is windows? Virus scan, etc but personally I don't trust *any* windows computer that hasn't been freshly installed. -John On Nov 24, 2008, at 10:39 AM, Josh Luthman wrote: I have a customer running behind a Trango 900 radio. She explains that many web pages (those heavy with images) never fully load and neither of her two email accounts work (using Outlook, the outgoing message just sits in the outbox). I have thousands of pings to this radio from the core router and only lost a few (99.99% returned). The customer is only there for a short time so it's difficult to get any worth while packet captures. They're currently on a Linksys WRT54g and I put in a MikroTik RB433 and 2.4 card - the issue remained. I have swapped both of the radios - AP and SU (as they're the only subscriber on this AP). Thanks in advance for any suggestions! -- -- WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ -- -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.9/1808
Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information
Hi, My telephone service is unlimited (home landline with Qwest) and could be unlimited cell phone with ATT or Sprint. My water is unlimited. People want "unlimited" service so they don't have to guess what their bill is going to be. Even my electricity and gas bills can be setup as "level-pay" so they are the same each month. The general public does NOT want to guess how much their internet bill is going to be... especially when they can get Dish or Direct TV for "unlimited" for $29.95 and up. Travis Microserv Sam Tetherow wrote: The average person watches 4 hours of TV per day. If we are streaming at 1.5mbit which is somewhere between SDTV and HDTV it is 660MB/hr. This works out to 79.2GB/month per person. On average I would be that there are at least 2 separate TV views per household (kids vs parents for example). This would get us to 158.4GB/mn leaving less than 100GB for all other traffic. If we run the same for HD which is roughly 2.5mbit or 1.125GB/hr we get 135GB/mn per person for HDTV. While 250GB is more than enough by current usage standards if all viewing moves to IP it is not going to take long 250GB to be a pretty tight fit for total monthly bandwidth. I pay by the gallon for water, by the kw/hr for electricity, and capped with overage on cell service. Sam Tetherow Sandhills Wireless Travis Johnson wrote: Honestly, I don't ever see the model changing to metered billing. Telephone service isn't that way. Water service (in my area at least) isn't that way. And yes, some have started, but with 250GB monthly caps, it's not really even a cap. Travis Microserv Sam Tetherow wrote: I couldn't imagine how the logistics of this would work. What makes sense is if your customer uses more bandwidth, then they pay for it. Everything else is just an inefficient way to do the same. Lets say you are going to charge $150/Mb/month for 95% usage (just picked a number). If the customer pays the bill for their usage 100% comes to you. Now lets say that we have come up with some efficient scheme to accurately bill the various content providers for their 'usage'. If we need $150/Mb/month and bill at that rate to say Netflix, do you think that Netflix is going to have $0 overhead on accounts payable for that bill? Do you think they are going to take a loss on that expense? So it is going to cost the end customer $150/Mb/month+$x. This cost will be averaged out to each customer based on total usage. As the service becomes more popular then the price is going to go up. Wait, doesn't this sound familiar? The problem with selling a commodity is that supply and demand laws do apply. The more the demand the less the supply. We don't get economy of scale savings in last mile on wireless gear. We have a very finite amount of bandwidth we can effectively deliver from an AP/tower. Marlon is the one ahead of the curve on this one (and all the others that have been billing based on usage already). This is most likely where we are going to end up. I don't necessarily think it will be down to $x/GB transfer it will at least be tiered service similar to cell phone plans today. Where WISPs run into the issue is in the short term. We have to survive the market until the billing model changes. Eventually Cable and Telco (and even Fiber at some point) is going to have to switch from unlimited to some form of metered (Comcast and Time Warner are already testing this model). They just have the advantage of having better last mile bandwidth than we do and they generally get better upstream pricing. Sam Tetherow Sandhills Wireless Scottie Arnett wrote: I read about a model somewhere that might work. The content providers paid the ISP a percentage for delivery of the content. Now I might could live with that if the economics worked out. Scottie -- Original Message -- From: "John Scrivner" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 10:11:04 -0600 I think we will eventually see people just leave constant streams open day and night. How many of you leave your TV on much of the time whether you are watching it or not? This throws off the over-subscription model which relates to how many people are using the service at one time. When we start seeing all channels available at all times via Internet with some common interface (Netflix, Tivo, Windows Media Player, Real Player, Quicktime, etc.) then we will have this problem to contend with as well. I hope content providers start making all of their content interactive such that viewers have to click something (like ads) from time to time to maintain the free TV service. This would help them to sell their ads at a premium and would provide an automatic "off" button for the stream when people walk away from the "TV" and
Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information
Of course they want unlimited. I want unlimited as well. But the issue we are going to have to deal with is, is everyone going to be willing to pay for unlimited such that those who are on the top end of the usage spectrum aren't eating our profit? How much unused bandwidth do you have on your current network connection(s)? If one third of your existing customers increased their monthly bandwidth by 80GB (1.5mbit) during peak hours (6pm to 10pm) would your existing infrastructure be able to handle the increased load or would you have to build out more infrastructure. Would your monthly upstream cost increase and if so by how much? Do you think you would lose customers if you had to up their rates regardless of their usage (so that everyone can have their unlimited plan) or do you think it would be less disruptive upping the rates on the power users only? I'm opting for upping the rates on the power users, it will have one of two effects, either I will collect more from those who use more or I will lose a customer that is costing me more than I am collecting from them. Obviously keeping the customer is the desired outcome, but I not willing to pay for him on a monthly basis. On a related note how many people have upped their rates and if so how have you faired against competition? Sam Tetherow Sandhills Wireless Travis Johnson wrote: Hi, My telephone service is unlimited (home landline with Qwest) and could be unlimited cell phone with ATT or Sprint. My water is unlimited. People want unlimited service so they don't have to guess what their bill is going to be. Even my electricity and gas bills can be setup as level-pay so they are the same each month. The general public does NOT want to guess how much their internet bill is going to be... especially when they can get Dish or Direct TV for unlimited for $29.95 and up. Travis Microserv Sam Tetherow wrote: The average person watches 4 hours of TV per day. If we are streaming at 1.5mbit which is somewhere between SDTV and HDTV it is 660MB/hr. This works out to 79.2GB/month per person. On average I would be that there are at least 2 separate TV views per household (kids vs parents for example). This would get us to 158.4GB/mn leaving less than 100GB for all other traffic. If we run the same for HD which is roughly 2.5mbit or 1.125GB/hr we get 135GB/mn per person for HDTV. While 250GB is more than enough by current usage standards if all viewing moves to IP it is not going to take long 250GB to be a pretty tight fit for total monthly bandwidth. I pay by the gallon for water, by the kw/hr for electricity, and capped with overage on cell service. Sam Tetherow Sandhills Wireless Travis Johnson wrote: Honestly, I don't ever see the model changing to metered billing. Telephone service isn't that way. Water service (in my area at least) isn't that way. And yes, some have started, but with 250GB monthly caps, it's not really even a cap. Travis Microserv Sam Tetherow wrote: I couldn't imagine how the logistics of this would work. What makes sense is if your customer uses more bandwidth, then they pay for it. Everything else is just an inefficient way to do the same. Lets say you are going to charge $150/Mb/month for 95% usage (just picked a number). If the customer pays the bill for their usage 100% comes to you. Now lets say that we have come up with some efficient scheme to accurately bill the various content providers for their 'usage'. If we need $150/Mb/month and bill at that rate to say Netflix, do you think that Netflix is going to have $0 overhead on accounts payable for that bill? Do you think they are going to take a loss on that expense? So it is going to cost the end customer $150/Mb/month+$x. This cost will be averaged out to each customer based on total usage. As the service becomes more popular then the price is going to go up. Wait, doesn't this sound familiar? The problem with selling a commodity is that supply and demand laws do apply. The more the demand the less the supply. We don't get economy of scale savings in last mile on wireless gear. We have a very finite amount of bandwidth we can effectively deliver from an AP/tower. Marlon is the one ahead of the curve on this one (and all the others that have been billing based on usage already). This is most likely where we are going to end up. I don't necessarily think it will be down to $x/GB transfer it will at least be tiered service similar to cell phone plans today. Where WISPs run into the issue is in the short term. We have to survive the market until the billing model changes. Eventually Cable and Telco (and even Fiber at some point) is going to have to switch from unlimited to some form of metered (Comcast and Time Warner are already testing this model). They just have the advantage of having
Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information
My telephone service is unlimited (home landline with Qwest) and could be unlimited cell phone with ATT or Sprint. My water is unlimited. There is almost always 'fine print' in these unlimited plans. Unlimited long distance is almost always not completely unlimited. People want unlimited service so they don't have to guess what their bill is going to be. Even my electricity and gas bills can be setup as level-pay so they are the same each month. The general public does NOT Level pay is not unlimited. No where close. Matt WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information
Simple as this... Even if you can supply this bandwidth.. 1. Avg Customer usage goes up. 2. Over subscription rate goes down. 3. Network costs go up to meet increased demand 4. Per Sub costs go up due to the higher usage 5. Profit per sub goes down. Increase back-end costs but no increase in profit = Bankrupt Company Or you can.. 1. Avg Customer Usage goes up 2. Network costs go up 3. Avg cost per sub goes up 4. Pass cost onto customer Regardless, its business 101. If your costs put you into a position that your existing pricing don't make enough money, you have to, reduce costs, or increase income. The idea is how to do this without loosing customers (some you will anyways). But as Sam said, loose the high end customers that use your network and keep on trucking. Comcast I think did this a while back, dumping around 2000 subscribers, due to their usage! Why do you think also sat connections have that FAP, cause they can't just upgrade their backhauls etc Its a major expense. One argument that I have had people tell me, is that the ISP should know this is coming and should have planned for it. Cost of doing business. I don't think that is true, a small increase in usage yes, but we are talking tripling otherwise low usage connections, if not more. -- * Dennis Burgess, CCNA, A+, Mikrotik Certified Trainer WISPA Board Member - wispa.org http://www.wispa.org/ Link Technologies, Inc -- Mikrotik WISP Support Services* *Office*: 314-735-0270 *Website*: http://www.linktechs.net http://www.linktechs.net/ */ Link Technologies, Inc is offering LIVE Mikrotik On-Line Training http://www.linktechs.net/onlinetraining.asp/* Sam Tetherow wrote: Of course they want unlimited. I want unlimited as well. But the issue we are going to have to deal with is, is everyone going to be willing to pay for unlimited such that those who are on the top end of the usage spectrum aren't eating our profit? How much unused bandwidth do you have on your current network connection(s)? If one third of your existing customers increased their monthly bandwidth by 80GB (1.5mbit) during peak hours (6pm to 10pm) would your existing infrastructure be able to handle the increased load or would you have to build out more infrastructure. Would your monthly upstream cost increase and if so by how much? Do you think you would lose customers if you had to up their rates regardless of their usage (so that everyone can have their unlimited plan) or do you think it would be less disruptive upping the rates on the power users only? I'm opting for upping the rates on the power users, it will have one of two effects, either I will collect more from those who use more or I will lose a customer that is costing me more than I am collecting from them. Obviously keeping the customer is the desired outcome, but I not willing to pay for him on a monthly basis. On a related note how many people have upped their rates and if so how have you faired against competition? Sam Tetherow Sandhills Wireless Travis Johnson wrote: Hi, My telephone service is unlimited (home landline with Qwest) and could be unlimited cell phone with ATT or Sprint. My water is unlimited. People want unlimited service so they don't have to guess what their bill is going to be. Even my electricity and gas bills can be setup as level-pay so they are the same each month. The general public does NOT want to guess how much their internet bill is going to be... especially when they can get Dish or Direct TV for unlimited for $29.95 and up. Travis Microserv Sam Tetherow wrote: The average person watches 4 hours of TV per day. If we are streaming at 1.5mbit which is somewhere between SDTV and HDTV it is 660MB/hr. This works out to 79.2GB/month per person. On average I would be that there are at least 2 separate TV views per household (kids vs parents for example). This would get us to 158.4GB/mn leaving less than 100GB for all other traffic. If we run the same for HD which is roughly 2.5mbit or 1.125GB/hr we get 135GB/mn per person for HDTV. While 250GB is more than enough by current usage standards if all viewing moves to IP it is not going to take long 250GB to be a pretty tight fit for total monthly bandwidth. I pay by the gallon for water, by the kw/hr for electricity, and capped with overage on cell service. Sam Tetherow Sandhills Wireless Travis Johnson wrote: Honestly, I don't ever see the model changing to metered billing. Telephone service isn't that way. Water service (in my area at least) isn't that way. And yes, some have started, but with 250GB monthly caps, it's not really even a cap. Travis Microserv Sam Tetherow wrote: I couldn't imagine how the logistics of this would work. What makes sense is if your customer uses more bandwidth, then they
Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information
The local Gas Co here has budget billing The bill changes ever 4 months. During the winter its low, and the summer its way high, why. Winter we use it to heat with, normally I would have 300-400 bills, for a few months, but the summer we only use it for cooking, so it would be 30-40 bucks! with that I pay around 80-90 bucks a month normally. I guarantee I am paying for ALL of the gas used! Just spreading it out over a number of months.I'm sure though, some months I am ahead, I have credit for unused gas, and some months I owe for. -- * Dennis Burgess, CCNA, A+, Mikrotik Certified Trainer WISPA Board Member - wispa.org http://www.wispa.org/ Link Technologies, Inc -- Mikrotik WISP Support Services* *Office*: 314-735-0270 *Website*: http://www.linktechs.net http://www.linktechs.net/ */ Link Technologies, Inc is offering LIVE Mikrotik On-Line Training http://www.linktechs.net/onlinetraining.asp/* Matt wrote: My telephone service is unlimited (home landline with Qwest) and could be unlimited cell phone with ATT or Sprint. My water is unlimited. There is almost always 'fine print' in these unlimited plans. Unlimited long distance is almost always not completely unlimited. People want unlimited service so they don't have to guess what their bill is going to be. Even my electricity and gas bills can be setup as level-pay so they are the same each month. The general public does NOT Level pay is not unlimited. No where close. Matt WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information
This is the statement that got me: One argument that I have had people tell me, is that the ISP should know this is coming and should have planned for it. Whether it is through watching the amount of bandwidth used over periods of time as a trend or doing market research to find out what is coming down the line in technology, this statement holds pretty strong. Best practices tell you to build your network for your needs tomorrow, not for today, not for yesterday. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information
Yep. And I would agree there. I also think, WISPs, and even cable cos have the issue that the technology will limit their ability to take this increase rapidly. -- * Dennis Burgess, CCNA, A+, Mikrotik Certified Trainer WISPA Board Member - wispa.org http://www.wispa.org/ Link Technologies, Inc -- Mikrotik WISP Support Services* *Office*: 314-735-0270 *Website*: http://www.linktechs.net http://www.linktechs.net/ */ Link Technologies, Inc is offering LIVE Mikrotik On-Line Training http://www.linktechs.net/onlinetraining.asp/* Drew Lentz wrote: This is the statement that got me: One argument that I have had people tell me, is that the ISP should know this is coming and should have planned for it. Whether it is through watching the amount of bandwidth used over periods of time as a trend or doing market research to find out what is coming down the line in technology, this statement holds pretty strong. Best practices tell you to build your network for your needs tomorrow, not for today, not for yesterday. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information
Depends on where it's coming from. As I said, a 10 GigE to the CDNs (which is where most of the bandwidth is going to be going these days), the price is just equipment and cross connects. Public Peering with route servers (depending on the exchange) gets you 10 GigE for $500 (definitely not Equinix). There are transport costs, but 10GigE equipment isn't THAT expensive. I'm not saying it's free, but it's damn cheap. People will use pay as you go to reduce usage of their antiquated equipment instead of cost recovery for better gear and MRC. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: Sam Tetherow [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 1:50 PM To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information Mike Hammett wrote: The billing model is irrelevant if the gear can't do it in the first place. You could charge $10/megabyte transferred and it would be meaningless if you can't deliver what the customer wants. Wants and willing to pay for a two different things. I want a AC Cobra and I want to be able to drive it as fast I can on the highway, however I'm not ready to pay for either ;) I have always said I can deliver what the customer wants if the customer is willing to pay for it. Yes, the standard billing model needs to change, but using it as an artificial barrier isn't exactly the best thing to do, even if it is the only thing you can do at this time. I don't see how charging by the bit is an artificial barrier. Do you think charging for gas by the gallon is an artificial barrier? As ISPs we have a commodity that we sell, bandwidth. We pay a fixed price for that bandwidth and then resell that bandwidth to our customers at a markup to cover operating expense and a reasonable return on investment. Charging a customer by their actually usage is the most 'real' method of billing. In fact the unlimited model is the artificial one that is used to entice people into buying. If the customer always fully utilized their $30/month worth of bandwidth you would go broke. It would be silly for fiber based networks to charge for usage at this time. They have no practical capacity limits. Go ahead, pull 100 mbit/s on your $75/month account... it costs them almost nil on a recurring basis because of 10GE connections to the CDNs... limelight, akami, Youtube, etc. There is always a practical limit. Are you telling me that fiber providers are paying $0.75/mbit/s for their upstream? Sam Tetherow Sandhills Wireless Networks would rather you pull 100 megs from a CDN because of the high capacity low price links to them, instead of going over peering sessions with other networks, which usually have more contractual restriction. Let me restate the issue... There is almost zero cost in connecting to the networks that house the big bandwidth intensive sites. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: Sam Tetherow [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 12:50 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information I couldn't imagine how the logistics of this would work. What makes sense is if your customer uses more bandwidth, then they pay for it. Everything else is just an inefficient way to do the same. Lets say you are going to charge $150/Mb/month for 95% usage (just picked a number). If the customer pays the bill for their usage 100% comes to you. Now lets say that we have come up with some efficient scheme to accurately bill the various content providers for their 'usage'. If we need $150/Mb/month and bill at that rate to say Netflix, do you think that Netflix is going to have $0 overhead on accounts payable for that bill? Do you think they are going to take a loss on that expense? So it is going to cost the end customer $150/Mb/month+$x. This cost will be averaged out to each customer based on total usage. As the service becomes more popular then the price is going to go up. Wait, doesn't this sound familiar? The problem with selling a commodity is that supply and demand laws do apply. The more the demand the less the supply. We don't get economy of scale savings in last mile on wireless gear. We have a very finite amount of bandwidth we can effectively deliver from an AP/tower. Marlon is the one ahead of the curve on this one (and all the others that have been billing based on usage already). This is most likely where we are going to end up. I don't necessarily think it will be down to $x/GB transfer it will at least be tiered service similar to cell phone plans today. Where WISPs run into the issue is in the short term. We have to survive the market until the billing model
Re: [WISPA] Updated White Spaces mapping tool
Brian, Thanks again for this! A few comments: (1) I was surprised to see channels 3 4 included, since those are prohibited everywhere (right?) (2) you might include a note on your web pages about the 32km canadian border limitation, also the 40/60km Mexican border limit. (I'm guessing that would be hard to include as an overlay) (3) I found a list of the 13 metro areas limited for PLMRS/CMRS operation at http://edocket.access.gpo.gov/cfr_2002/octqtr/pdf/47cfr90.307.pdf (2 page PDF). For my situation, Detroit has channels 15 16, so channels 14-17 are off limits out to 134km, I think. I was also able to use the analog file after a few attempts. (I turned on everything and locked up Earth the 1st time) Do you know of a method to click on one of the analog overlays and find out what it is? I see there is one in the next county over, but I don't really want to go thru that long list and turn them on one at a time. Oh, is it OK to point other people at your tool? thanks again! PS - your webserver has a great connection, I had that 20MB file in about 30 seconds. :-) On Nov 24, 2008, at 12:09 AM, Brian Webster wrote: I have updated the White Spaces Google Earth Mapping tool to show ALL of the channels available for Fixed Wireless use. Please go to http://www.wirelessmapping.com/sample_maps.htm to download the latest version. There is also a second link to a file with the analog low power stations that may not convert to digital in February. It's a huge file and is only for reference. You will need to do some research on your own to determine if any particular station will remain on the air. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information
So how much would 10GigE be to your NOC? Sam Tetherow Sandhills Wireless Mike Hammett wrote: Depends on where it's coming from. As I said, a 10 GigE to the CDNs (which is where most of the bandwidth is going to be going these days), the price is just equipment and cross connects. Public Peering with route servers (depending on the exchange) gets you 10 GigE for $500 (definitely not Equinix). There are transport costs, but 10GigE equipment isn't THAT expensive. I'm not saying it's free, but it's damn cheap. People will use pay as you go to reduce usage of their antiquated equipment instead of cost recovery for better gear and MRC. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: Sam Tetherow [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 1:50 PM To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information Mike Hammett wrote: The billing model is irrelevant if the gear can't do it in the first place. You could charge $10/megabyte transferred and it would be meaningless if you can't deliver what the customer wants. Wants and willing to pay for a two different things. I want a AC Cobra and I want to be able to drive it as fast I can on the highway, however I'm not ready to pay for either ;) I have always said I can deliver what the customer wants if the customer is willing to pay for it. Yes, the standard billing model needs to change, but using it as an artificial barrier isn't exactly the best thing to do, even if it is the only thing you can do at this time. I don't see how charging by the bit is an artificial barrier. Do you think charging for gas by the gallon is an artificial barrier? As ISPs we have a commodity that we sell, bandwidth. We pay a fixed price for that bandwidth and then resell that bandwidth to our customers at a markup to cover operating expense and a reasonable return on investment. Charging a customer by their actually usage is the most 'real' method of billing. In fact the unlimited model is the artificial one that is used to entice people into buying. If the customer always fully utilized their $30/month worth of bandwidth you would go broke. It would be silly for fiber based networks to charge for usage at this time. They have no practical capacity limits. Go ahead, pull 100 mbit/s on your $75/month account... it costs them almost nil on a recurring basis because of 10GE connections to the CDNs... limelight, akami, Youtube, etc. There is always a practical limit. Are you telling me that fiber providers are paying $0.75/mbit/s for their upstream? Sam Tetherow Sandhills Wireless Networks would rather you pull 100 megs from a CDN because of the high capacity low price links to them, instead of going over peering sessions with other networks, which usually have more contractual restriction. Let me restate the issue... There is almost zero cost in connecting to the networks that house the big bandwidth intensive sites. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: Sam Tetherow [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 12:50 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information I couldn't imagine how the logistics of this would work. What makes sense is if your customer uses more bandwidth, then they pay for it. Everything else is just an inefficient way to do the same. Lets say you are going to charge $150/Mb/month for 95% usage (just picked a number). If the customer pays the bill for their usage 100% comes to you. Now lets say that we have come up with some efficient scheme to accurately bill the various content providers for their 'usage'. If we need $150/Mb/month and bill at that rate to say Netflix, do you think that Netflix is going to have $0 overhead on accounts payable for that bill? Do you think they are going to take a loss on that expense? So it is going to cost the end customer $150/Mb/month+$x. This cost will be averaged out to each customer based on total usage. As the service becomes more popular then the price is going to go up. Wait, doesn't this sound familiar? The problem with selling a commodity is that supply and demand laws do apply. The more the demand the less the supply. We don't get economy of scale savings in last mile on wireless gear. We have a very finite amount of bandwidth we can effectively deliver from an AP/tower. Marlon is the one ahead of the curve on this one (and all the others that have been billing based on usage already). This is most likely where we are going to end up. I don't necessarily think it will be down to $x/GB transfer it will
Re: [WISPA] Updated White Spaces mapping tool
John, I included all the channels because you will need to look at them as adjacent channels that need to be protected. I could have done a lot more with this but the time requirement to provide this as a free tool is well above what I have the capacity to do. That is also why you got the analog stuff in one lump sum file. It would have taken me double the time I already spent on this to go and create the same capability for the analog channels. There is still a lot of information I need to learn about how the rules are going to work in the white spaces. At this point I thought for the good of the group, I would just get as much information out there in a useable format that I could afford to provide for free. In cases such as the PLMRS for the metro areas, it would be simple for WISP's in those markets to just delete or not use those contours in their investigations. If there were an easily accessible set of GIS data for these things and the border protection zones, I would gladly add them to the file. If they need to be created it would be some time before I could even start on that type of project. Thanks so much for your kind words. I appreciate the input and your notes about the exceptions will no doubt be noted by others who are using the tool! Thank You, Brian Webster www.wirelessmapping.com http://www.wirelessmapping.com -Original Message- From: John Valenti [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 7:00 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Updated White Spaces mapping tool Brian, Thanks again for this! A few comments: (1) I was surprised to see channels 3 4 included, since those are prohibited everywhere (right?) (2) you might include a note on your web pages about the 32km canadian border limitation, also the 40/60km Mexican border limit. (I'm guessing that would be hard to include as an overlay) (3) I found a list of the 13 metro areas limited for PLMRS/CMRS operation at http://edocket.access.gpo.gov/cfr_2002/octqtr/pdf/47cfr90.307.pdf (2 page PDF). For my situation, Detroit has channels 15 16, so channels 14-17 are off limits out to 134km, I think. I was also able to use the analog file after a few attempts. (I turned on everything and locked up Earth the 1st time) Do you know of a method to click on one of the analog overlays and find out what it is? I see there is one in the next county over, but I don't really want to go thru that long list and turn them on one at a time. Oh, is it OK to point other people at your tool? thanks again! PS - your webserver has a great connection, I had that 20MB file in about 30 seconds. :-) On Nov 24, 2008, at 12:09 AM, Brian Webster wrote: I have updated the White Spaces Google Earth Mapping tool to show ALL of the channels available for Fixed Wireless use. Please go to http://www.wirelessmapping.com/sample_maps.htm to download the latest version. There is also a second link to a file with the analog low power stations that may not convert to digital in February. It's a huge file and is only for reference. You will need to do some research on your own to determine if any particular station will remain on the air. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Updated White Spaces mapping tool
I was just thinking about the border buffer zones. That should not be too difficult to create. I'll get to that in a few days and post it as a separate file. I'll let the list know when it's ready. Thank You, Brian Webster www.wirelessmapping.com http://www.wirelessmapping.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Brian Webster Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 9:33 PM To: John Valenti; WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Updated White Spaces mapping tool John, I included all the channels because you will need to look at them as adjacent channels that need to be protected. I could have done a lot more with this but the time requirement to provide this as a free tool is well above what I have the capacity to do. That is also why you got the analog stuff in one lump sum file. It would have taken me double the time I already spent on this to go and create the same capability for the analog channels. There is still a lot of information I need to learn about how the rules are going to work in the white spaces. At this point I thought for the good of the group, I would just get as much information out there in a useable format that I could afford to provide for free. In cases such as the PLMRS for the metro areas, it would be simple for WISP's in those markets to just delete or not use those contours in their investigations. If there were an easily accessible set of GIS data for these things and the border protection zones, I would gladly add them to the file. If they need to be created it would be some time before I could even start on that type of project. Thanks so much for your kind words. I appreciate the input and your notes about the exceptions will no doubt be noted by others who are using the tool! Thank You, Brian Webster www.wirelessmapping.com http://www.wirelessmapping.com -Original Message- From: John Valenti [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 7:00 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Updated White Spaces mapping tool Brian, Thanks again for this! A few comments: (1) I was surprised to see channels 3 4 included, since those are prohibited everywhere (right?) (2) you might include a note on your web pages about the 32km canadian border limitation, also the 40/60km Mexican border limit. (I'm guessing that would be hard to include as an overlay) (3) I found a list of the 13 metro areas limited for PLMRS/CMRS operation at http://edocket.access.gpo.gov/cfr_2002/octqtr/pdf/47cfr90.307.pdf (2 page PDF). For my situation, Detroit has channels 15 16, so channels 14-17 are off limits out to 134km, I think. I was also able to use the analog file after a few attempts. (I turned on everything and locked up Earth the 1st time) Do you know of a method to click on one of the analog overlays and find out what it is? I see there is one in the next county over, but I don't really want to go thru that long list and turn them on one at a time. Oh, is it OK to point other people at your tool? thanks again! PS - your webserver has a great connection, I had that 20MB file in about 30 seconds. :-) On Nov 24, 2008, at 12:09 AM, Brian Webster wrote: I have updated the White Spaces Google Earth Mapping tool to show ALL of the channels available for Fixed Wireless use. Please go to http://www.wirelessmapping.com/sample_maps.htm to download the latest version. There is also a second link to a file with the analog low power stations that may not convert to digital in February. It's a huge file and is only for reference. You will need to do some research on your own to determine if any particular station will remain on the air. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information
sigh We've also started getting a lot of calls from our xbox360 subs. They have trouble getting or staying connected. Me thinks xbox 360 sucks! NO calls from playstation or wii customers. Only xbox 360. I hate ms. marlon - Original Message - From: Dennis Burgess [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, November 23, 2008 1:42 PM Subject: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information In case you did not know, recently NetFlix and Microsoft teamed up to provide video on-demand services to all of the XBox 360 users. Not only can you start one of 12,000 videos in a matter of seconds on your computer, but you can also do this right on your Xbox 360, bringing it mainstream for many who have never used it. Not to mention the super low cost of basically $9 bucks a month! I have been using it for a few weeks and since it came out on the XBox 360 last Wednesday, I have streamed GIGs. Soon as you hear, gigs, you may be interested to know what is required to maintain a high-end video stream. So, I put together some numbers for everyone, in case you are interested in how much bandwidth this service uses! A You can see my data at http://www.linktechs.net/netflix.asp. Feel free to shoot me a e-mail off-list if you have any questions! -- * Dennis Burgess, CCNA, A+, Mikrotik Certified Trainer Link Technologies, Inc -- Mikrotik WISP Support Services* 314-735-0270 http://www.linktechs.net http://www.linktechs.net/ */ Link Technologies, Inc is offering LIVE Mikrotik On-Line Training http://www.linktechs.net/onlinetraining.asp/* WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information
I have complaints from both Xbox 360 and PS3. Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 Those who don't understand UNIX are condemned to reinvent it, poorly. --- Henry Spencer On Mon, Nov 24, 2008 at 10:04 PM, Marlon K. Schafer [EMAIL PROTECTED]wrote: sigh We've also started getting a lot of calls from our xbox360 subs. They have trouble getting or staying connected. Me thinks xbox 360 sucks! NO calls from playstation or wii customers. Only xbox 360. I hate ms. marlon - Original Message - From: Dennis Burgess [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, November 23, 2008 1:42 PM Subject: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information In case you did not know, recently NetFlix and Microsoft teamed up to provide video on-demand services to all of the XBox 360 users. Not only can you start one of 12,000 videos in a matter of seconds on your computer, but you can also do this right on your Xbox 360, bringing it mainstream for many who have never used it. Not to mention the super low cost of basically $9 bucks a month! I have been using it for a few weeks and since it came out on the XBox 360 last Wednesday, I have streamed GIGs. Soon as you hear, gigs, you may be interested to know what is required to maintain a high-end video stream. So, I put together some numbers for everyone, in case you are interested in how much bandwidth this service uses! A You can see my data at http://www.linktechs.net/netflix.asp. Feel free to shoot me a e-mail off-list if you have any questions! -- * Dennis Burgess, CCNA, A+, Mikrotik Certified Trainer Link Technologies, Inc -- Mikrotik WISP Support Services* 314-735-0270 http://www.linktechs.net http://www.linktechs.net/ */ Link Technologies, Inc is offering LIVE Mikrotik On-Line Training http://www.linktechs.net/onlinetraining.asp/* WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Updated White Spaces mapping tool
Are the stations going to change the channels once they vacate their analog ones? I thought I heard that once. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: Brian Webster [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, November 23, 2008 11:09 PM To: WISPA List wireless@wispa.org Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [WISPA] Updated White Spaces mapping tool I have updated the White Spaces Google Earth Mapping tool to show ALL of the channels available for Fixed Wireless use. Please go to http://www.wirelessmapping.com/sample_maps.htm to download the latest version. There is also a second link to a file with the analog low power stations that may not convert to digital in February. It's a huge file and is only for reference. You will need to do some research on your own to determine if any particular station will remain on the air. Thank You, Brian Webster WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information
That's because no one plays Wii or Playstation online... at least nowhere near the same number of people. I honestly don't know a single person that plays Playstation or Wii online, but probably 30 or more that play XBox. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: Marlon K. Schafer [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 9:04 PM To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information sigh We've also started getting a lot of calls from our xbox360 subs. They have trouble getting or staying connected. Me thinks xbox 360 sucks! NO calls from playstation or wii customers. Only xbox 360. I hate ms. marlon - Original Message - From: Dennis Burgess [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, November 23, 2008 1:42 PM Subject: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information In case you did not know, recently NetFlix and Microsoft teamed up to provide video on-demand services to all of the XBox 360 users. Not only can you start one of 12,000 videos in a matter of seconds on your computer, but you can also do this right on your Xbox 360, bringing it mainstream for many who have never used it. Not to mention the super low cost of basically $9 bucks a month! I have been using it for a few weeks and since it came out on the XBox 360 last Wednesday, I have streamed GIGs. Soon as you hear, gigs, you may be interested to know what is required to maintain a high-end video stream. So, I put together some numbers for everyone, in case you are interested in how much bandwidth this service uses! A You can see my data at http://www.linktechs.net/netflix.asp. Feel free to shoot me a e-mail off-list if you have any questions! -- * Dennis Burgess, CCNA, A+, Mikrotik Certified Trainer Link Technologies, Inc -- Mikrotik WISP Support Services* 314-735-0270 http://www.linktechs.net http://www.linktechs.net/ */ Link Technologies, Inc is offering LIVE Mikrotik On-Line Training http://www.linktechs.net/onlinetraining.asp/* WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Updated White Spaces mapping tool
According to the bottom of page 105, it's 134 km for cochannel operation and 131 km for adjacent channel operation. That means, I guess, that I'm SOL for channels 13, 14, 15, and 16. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: John Valenti [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 6:00 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] Updated White Spaces mapping tool Brian, Thanks again for this! A few comments: (1) I was surprised to see channels 3 4 included, since those are prohibited everywhere (right?) (2) you might include a note on your web pages about the 32km canadian border limitation, also the 40/60km Mexican border limit. (I'm guessing that would be hard to include as an overlay) (3) I found a list of the 13 metro areas limited for PLMRS/CMRS operation at http://edocket.access.gpo.gov/cfr_2002/octqtr/pdf/47cfr90.307.pdf (2 page PDF). For my situation, Detroit has channels 15 16, so channels 14-17 are off limits out to 134km, I think. I was also able to use the analog file after a few attempts. (I turned on everything and locked up Earth the 1st time) Do you know of a method to click on one of the analog overlays and find out what it is? I see there is one in the next county over, but I don't really want to go thru that long list and turn them on one at a time. Oh, is it OK to point other people at your tool? thanks again! PS - your webserver has a great connection, I had that 20MB file in about 30 seconds. :-) On Nov 24, 2008, at 12:09 AM, Brian Webster wrote: I have updated the White Spaces Google Earth Mapping tool to show ALL of the channels available for Fixed Wireless use. Please go to http://www.wirelessmapping.com/sample_maps.htm to download the latest version. There is also a second link to a file with the analog low power stations that may not convert to digital in February. It's a huge file and is only for reference. You will need to do some research on your own to determine if any particular station will remain on the air. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Updated White Spaces mapping tool
I think some will but I'm not completely sure. Somewhere there is a DTV transition database on the FCC web site that may shed more light on the topic. Just haven't had the time to research all of that. Thank You, Brian Webster www.wirelessmapping.com http://www.wirelessmapping.com -Original Message- From: Mike Hammett [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 10:32 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Updated White Spaces mapping tool Are the stations going to change the channels once they vacate their analog ones? I thought I heard that once. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: Brian Webster [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, November 23, 2008 11:09 PM To: WISPA List wireless@wispa.org Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [WISPA] Updated White Spaces mapping tool I have updated the White Spaces Google Earth Mapping tool to show ALL of the channels available for Fixed Wireless use. Please go to http://www.wirelessmapping.com/sample_maps.htm to download the latest version. There is also a second link to a file with the analog low power stations that may not convert to digital in February. It's a huge file and is only for reference. You will need to do some research on your own to determine if any particular station will remain on the air. Thank You, Brian Webster -- -- WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ -- -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Updated White Spaces mapping tool
All the stations were given an extra set of channels to fire up and operate the DTV transmitters. Mostly on UHF. This happened years ago and in this are we have been receiving a digital TV signal for about 8 years. Once the VHF analog transmitters are switched off, the broadcasters I know say they are going to convert the VHF transmitters to digital and fire up more content. Not sure if they get to keep the ownership of the channel or not. But the end result will be more free TV. Where I am I can get 24 channels of content (off of about 13 carriers). That will close to double. Pretty nice to be able to get 40+ channels for free. - Original Message - From: Brian Webster [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Mike Hammett [EMAIL PROTECTED]; WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 8:37 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Updated White Spaces mapping tool I think some will but I'm not completely sure. Somewhere there is a DTV transition database on the FCC web site that may shed more light on the topic. Just haven't had the time to research all of that. Thank You, Brian Webster www.wirelessmapping.com http://www.wirelessmapping.com -Original Message- From: Mike Hammett [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 10:32 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Updated White Spaces mapping tool Are the stations going to change the channels once they vacate their analog ones? I thought I heard that once. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: Brian Webster [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, November 23, 2008 11:09 PM To: WISPA List wireless@wispa.org Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [WISPA] Updated White Spaces mapping tool I have updated the White Spaces Google Earth Mapping tool to show ALL of the channels available for Fixed Wireless use. Please go to http://www.wirelessmapping.com/sample_maps.htm to download the latest version. There is also a second link to a file with the analog low power stations that may not convert to digital in February. It's a huge file and is only for reference. You will need to do some research on your own to determine if any particular station will remain on the air. Thank You, Brian Webster -- -- WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ -- -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information
Best practices tell you to build your network for your needs tomorrow, not for today, not for yesterday. Until the cold reality of cash flow and running a profitable business smacks you right in the face and then you're stuck trying to keep yesterday's network running as long as possible... -Charles This message is intended only for the use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed and may contain information that is privileged, confidential and exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, or the employee or agent responsible for delivery of the message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately by telephone at 630-344-1586. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Customer issue - data stream halts, can't email
I recently had a customer's system do that. Worked FINE with my laptop and his iphone. Was some very strange computer problem. I told them to take the machine to a shop. marlon - Original Message - From: Josh Luthman [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 7:39 AM Subject: [WISPA] Customer issue - data stream halts, can't email I have a customer running behind a Trango 900 radio. She explains that many web pages (those heavy with images) never fully load and neither of her two email accounts work (using Outlook, the outgoing message just sits in the outbox). I have thousands of pings to this radio from the core router and only lost a few (99.99% returned). The customer is only there for a short time so it's difficult to get any worth while packet captures. They're currently on a Linksys WRT54g and I put in a MikroTik RB433 and 2.4 card - the issue remained. I have swapped both of the radios - AP and SU (as they're the only subscriber on this AP). Thanks in advance for any suggestions! Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 Those who don't understand UNIX are condemned to reinvent it, poorly. --- Henry Spencer WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Updated White Spaces mapping tool
Since when did the US govt standardize on the metric system? What happened to inches, feet, and miles? LOL, J/K guys. Scottie -- Original Message -- From: Mike Hammett [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 21:33:40 -0600 According to the bottom of page 105, it's 134 km for cochannel operation and 131 km for adjacent channel operation. That means, I guess, that I'm SOL for channels 13, 14, 15, and 16. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: John Valenti [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 6:00 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] Updated White Spaces mapping tool Brian, Thanks again for this! A few comments: (1) I was surprised to see channels 3 4 included, since those are prohibited everywhere (right?) (2) you might include a note on your web pages about the 32km canadian border limitation, also the 40/60km Mexican border limit. (I'm guessing that would be hard to include as an overlay) (3) I found a list of the 13 metro areas limited for PLMRS/CMRS operation at http://edocket.access.gpo.gov/cfr_2002/octqtr/pdf/47cfr90.307.pdf (2 page PDF). For my situation, Detroit has channels 15 16, so channels 14-17 are off limits out to 134km, I think. I was also able to use the analog file after a few attempts. (I turned on everything and locked up Earth the 1st time) Do you know of a method to click on one of the analog overlays and find out what it is? I see there is one in the next county over, but I don't really want to go thru that long list and turn them on one at a time. Oh, is it OK to point other people at your tool? thanks again! PS - your webserver has a great connection, I had that 20MB file in about 30 seconds. :-) On Nov 24, 2008, at 12:09 AM, Brian Webster wrote: I have updated the White Spaces Google Earth Mapping tool to show ALL of the channels available for Fixed Wireless use. Please go to http://www.wirelessmapping.com/sample_maps.htm to download the latest version. There is also a second link to a file with the analog low power stations that may not convert to digital in February. It's a huge file and is only for reference. You will need to do some research on your own to determine if any particular station will remain on the air. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] Wireless High Speed Broadband service from Info-Ed, Inc. as low as $30.00/mth. Check out www.info-ed.com/wireless.html for information. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Updated White Spaces mapping tool
All the better reason for the subs to forget about streaming, OOPS!, that is another thread. I forgot exactly who it was, maybe Patrick Leary, that was pushing us to upsell our customers to HDTV/digital antennas, anyways... that is looking like a real good idea. Scottie -- Original Message -- From: Chuck McCown - 3 [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 20:42:16 -0700 All the stations were given an extra set of channels to fire up and operate the DTV transmitters. Mostly on UHF. This happened years ago and in this are we have been receiving a digital TV signal for about 8 years. Once the VHF analog transmitters are switched off, the broadcasters I know say they are going to convert the VHF transmitters to digital and fire up more content. Not sure if they get to keep the ownership of the channel or not. But the end result will be more free TV. Where I am I can get 24 channels of content (off of about 13 carriers). That will close to double. Pretty nice to be able to get 40+ channels for free. - Original Message - From: Brian Webster [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Mike Hammett [EMAIL PROTECTED]; WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 8:37 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Updated White Spaces mapping tool I think some will but I'm not completely sure. Somewhere there is a DTV transition database on the FCC web site that may shed more light on the topic. Just haven't had the time to research all of that. Thank You, Brian Webster www.wirelessmapping.com http://www.wirelessmapping.com -Original Message- From: Mike Hammett [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 10:32 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Updated White Spaces mapping tool Are the stations going to change the channels once they vacate their analog ones? I thought I heard that once. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: Brian Webster [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, November 23, 2008 11:09 PM To: WISPA List wireless@wispa.org Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [WISPA] Updated White Spaces mapping tool I have updated the White Spaces Google Earth Mapping tool to show ALL of the channels available for Fixed Wireless use. Please go to http://www.wirelessmapping.com/sample_maps.htm to download the latest version. There is also a second link to a file with the analog low power stations that may not convert to digital in February. It's a huge file and is only for reference. You will need to do some research on your own to determine if any particular station will remain on the air. Thank You, Brian Webster -- -- WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ -- -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] Wireless High Speed Broadband service from Info-Ed, Inc. as low as $30.00/mth. Check out www.info-ed.com/wireless.html for information. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Updated White Spaces mapping tool
I had a physics professor that would allow solutions to problems to be submitted in any unit measure. Since he had TAs and grad students doing the grading it was no skin of his nose. Lots of furlongs per fortnight velocity measurements. Units of photon energy to describe frequency. But when you describe mass as a quantity of molecules of a huge polymer it really got the TAs steamed. Your homework would come back smelling funny. The mass one didn't pass muster because you couldn't invent a new unit of measure, you had to use a published one. - Original Message - From: Scottie Arnett [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 9:04 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Updated White Spaces mapping tool Since when did the US govt standardize on the metric system? What happened to inches, feet, and miles? LOL, J/K guys. Scottie -- Original Message -- From: Mike Hammett [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 21:33:40 -0600 According to the bottom of page 105, it's 134 km for cochannel operation and 131 km for adjacent channel operation. That means, I guess, that I'm SOL for channels 13, 14, 15, and 16. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: John Valenti [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 6:00 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] Updated White Spaces mapping tool Brian, Thanks again for this! A few comments: (1) I was surprised to see channels 3 4 included, since those are prohibited everywhere (right?) (2) you might include a note on your web pages about the 32km canadian border limitation, also the 40/60km Mexican border limit. (I'm guessing that would be hard to include as an overlay) (3) I found a list of the 13 metro areas limited for PLMRS/CMRS operation at http://edocket.access.gpo.gov/cfr_2002/octqtr/pdf/47cfr90.307.pdf (2 page PDF). For my situation, Detroit has channels 15 16, so channels 14-17 are off limits out to 134km, I think. I was also able to use the analog file after a few attempts. (I turned on everything and locked up Earth the 1st time) Do you know of a method to click on one of the analog overlays and find out what it is? I see there is one in the next county over, but I don't really want to go thru that long list and turn them on one at a time. Oh, is it OK to point other people at your tool? thanks again! PS - your webserver has a great connection, I had that 20MB file in about 30 seconds. :-) On Nov 24, 2008, at 12:09 AM, Brian Webster wrote: I have updated the White Spaces Google Earth Mapping tool to show ALL of the channels available for Fixed Wireless use. Please go to http://www.wirelessmapping.com/sample_maps.htm to download the latest version. There is also a second link to a file with the analog low power stations that may not convert to digital in February. It's a huge file and is only for reference. You will need to do some research on your own to determine if any particular station will remain on the air. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] Wireless High Speed Broadband service from Info-Ed, Inc. as low as $30.00/mth. Check out www.info-ed.com/wireless.html for information. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives:
Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information
On Mon, 24 Nov 2008, Chuck McCown - 3 wrote: I think the canopy 450 will do something like 30 down and 10 up. So that could give you 20 simultaneously which statistically could work if you had 50-100 on an AP. Ok, so you have 20 people on one AP pulling 2Meg each which is 40 meg stream. If you have just 3 towers like that, you will have 120Meg streaming. At $50/sub, you have 60*50 = $3k/month in revenue for those that are using that 120Meg. You'd NEVER get 120Meg delivered to rural America (at least not in MY area) for that kind of money. A DS3 here with 45Meg would be around $4500/month after you include the transport. What am I missing? Canopy isn't the answer...the question isn't JUST the last mile, but the business model overall. The problem CAN be solved at the last mile, but when people are demanding streaming services they will have to understand that $50 commodity service isn't the answer. I'd be happy to deliver ANYONE with a dedicated service level of 2,3 even 10M, but it won't be $50/month. -- * Butch Evans * Professional Network Consultation* * http://www.butchevans.com/* Network Engineering * * http://www.wispa.org/ * WISPA Board Member * * http://blog.butchevans.com/ * Wired or Wireless Networks * WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Customer issue - data stream halts, can't email
I have saw spyware and/or trojans cause this. Been a PC technician about 6 times longer than a WISP. As much as it hurts, sometimes these things require a truckroll and a hookup of your clean laptop to prove it to the client. I think the original poster said there were more than one PC behind this connection...that doesn't mean they have not all visited the same location and picked up the same bug. I have 4 to 6 PC's running in my house at any one time, and I visit mostly the same sites on each. If you have exhausted all other possibilites, take your own machine and plug directly into your equipment and see what happens...you may have already done this, I have not followed the whole thread. Scottie -- Original Message -- From: Marlon K. Schafer [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 19:56:16 -0800 I recently had a customer's system do that. Worked FINE with my laptop and his iphone. Was some very strange computer problem. I told them to take the machine to a shop. marlon - Original Message - From: Josh Luthman [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 7:39 AM Subject: [WISPA] Customer issue - data stream halts, can't email I have a customer running behind a Trango 900 radio. She explains that many web pages (those heavy with images) never fully load and neither of her two email accounts work (using Outlook, the outgoing message just sits in the outbox). I have thousands of pings to this radio from the core router and only lost a few (99.99% returned). The customer is only there for a short time so it's difficult to get any worth while packet captures. They're currently on a Linksys WRT54g and I put in a MikroTik RB433 and 2.4 card - the issue remained. I have swapped both of the radios - AP and SU (as they're the only subscriber on this AP). Thanks in advance for any suggestions! Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 Those who don't understand UNIX are condemned to reinvent it, poorly. --- Henry Spencer WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] Wireless High Speed Broadband service from Info-Ed, Inc. as low as $30.00/mth. Check out www.info-ed.com/wireless.html for information. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Customer issue - data stream halts, can't email
That is the one thing I haven't tried. I would have to configure their Outlook settings on my laptop which includes installing Outlook itself... Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 Those who don't understand UNIX are condemned to reinvent it, poorly. --- Henry Spencer On Mon, Nov 24, 2008 at 11:17 PM, Scottie Arnett [EMAIL PROTECTED]wrote: I have saw spyware and/or trojans cause this. Been a PC technician about 6 times longer than a WISP. As much as it hurts, sometimes these things require a truckroll and a hookup of your clean laptop to prove it to the client. I think the original poster said there were more than one PC behind this connection...that doesn't mean they have not all visited the same location and picked up the same bug. I have 4 to 6 PC's running in my house at any one time, and I visit mostly the same sites on each. If you have exhausted all other possibilites, take your own machine and plug directly into your equipment and see what happens...you may have already done this, I have not followed the whole thread. Scottie -- Original Message -- From: Marlon K. Schafer [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 19:56:16 -0800 I recently had a customer's system do that. Worked FINE with my laptop and his iphone. Was some very strange computer problem. I told them to take the machine to a shop. marlon - Original Message - From: Josh Luthman [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 7:39 AM Subject: [WISPA] Customer issue - data stream halts, can't email I have a customer running behind a Trango 900 radio. She explains that many web pages (those heavy with images) never fully load and neither of her two email accounts work (using Outlook, the outgoing message just sits in the outbox). I have thousands of pings to this radio from the core router and only lost a few (99.99% returned). The customer is only there for a short time so it's difficult to get any worth while packet captures. They're currently on a Linksys WRT54g and I put in a MikroTik RB433 and 2.4 card - the issue remained. I have swapped both of the radios - AP and SU (as they're the only subscriber on this AP). Thanks in advance for any suggestions! Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 Those who don't understand UNIX are condemned to reinvent it, poorly. --- Henry Spencer WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] Wireless High Speed Broadband service from Info-Ed, Inc. as low as $30.00/mth. Check out www.info-ed.com/wireless.html for information. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information
I deliver 100 mbps wholesale to many rural areas for $3-4K/month type of figure. That includes transport. And stastically, you can oversub it, even with streaming content. You are never going to have all 20 streaming movies all at the same time. I am willing to take the chance. That is how we are building out our network. - Original Message - From: Butch Evans [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 9:06 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information On Mon, 24 Nov 2008, Chuck McCown - 3 wrote: I think the canopy 450 will do something like 30 down and 10 up. So that could give you 20 simultaneously which statistically could work if you had 50-100 on an AP. Ok, so you have 20 people on one AP pulling 2Meg each which is 40 meg stream. If you have just 3 towers like that, you will have 120Meg streaming. At $50/sub, you have 60*50 = $3k/month in revenue for those that are using that 120Meg. You'd NEVER get 120Meg delivered to rural America (at least not in MY area) for that kind of money. A DS3 here with 45Meg would be around $4500/month after you include the transport. What am I missing? Canopy isn't the answer...the question isn't JUST the last mile, but the business model overall. The problem CAN be solved at the last mile, but when people are demanding streaming services they will have to understand that $50 commodity service isn't the answer. I'd be happy to deliver ANYONE with a dedicated service level of 2,3 even 10M, but it won't be $50/month. -- * Butch Evans * Professional Network Consultation* * http://www.butchevans.com/ * Network Engineering* * http://www.wispa.org/ * WISPA Board Member* * http://blog.butchevans.com/ * Wired or Wireless Networks* WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information
On Mon, 24 Nov 2008, Mike Hammett wrote: Where has the innovation in the last few years gone?/rant How many in this industry bitch and moan over the cost of gear? How many would purchase an AP at under $200 and STILL think that's too high? How many in this industry are willing to purchase something JUST BECAUSE IT IS CHEAPER? Look at how many people in this industry are using DSL as a transport to the Internet. Answer THOSE questions and you'll begin the see the answer to YOUR question. The problem isn't just us. The big boys have been busy trying to drive pricing levels down in an attempt to buy the market. And too many of us have decided that we have to compete on price alone, so we found ways to cut cost by buying cheaper gear (there are 2 WISPs within a 30 minute drive of my house that are selling service using Linksys gear for APs). There is at least 3 WISPs whose service would cover my house that have DSL for their internet connection. I'm not condemming the practice as much as I am attempting to illustrate WHY the innovation is leaving the industry. It is NOT gone. It just doesn't exist in the price range that MOST people are willing to pay (WISPs, that is). -- * Butch Evans * Professional Network Consultation* * http://www.butchevans.com/* Network Engineering * * http://www.wispa.org/ * WISPA Board Member * * http://blog.butchevans.com/ * Wired or Wireless Networks * WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information
On Mon, 24 Nov 2008, Chuck McCown - 3 wrote: I deliver 100 mbps wholesale to many rural areas for $3-4K/month type of figure. That includes transport. And stastically, you can oversub it, even with streaming content. You are never going to have all 20 streaming movies all at the same time. I am willing to take the chance. That is how we are building out our network. Can you deliver that speed for that price to 802 Stokelan Drive in Malden, MO? If you can, you're the ONLY one who can. -- * Butch Evans * Professional Network Consultation* * http://www.butchevans.com/* Network Engineering * * http://www.wispa.org/ * WISPA Board Member * * http://blog.butchevans.com/ * Wired or Wireless Networks * WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information
You can't oversubscribe it by very much. Most people watch TV from 6:00 to 10:00PM. What happens when they want to watch TV and it just doesn't work? What will you do then? It's not that it will just be "slow" or "sluggish" as normal internet services can be when oversubscribed, it just will not work. So then what? Travis Microserv Chuck McCown - 3 wrote: I deliver 100 mbps wholesale to many rural areas for $3-4K/month type of figure. That includes transport. And stastically, you can oversub it, even with streaming content. You are never going to have all 20 streaming movies all at the same time. I am willing to take the chance. That is how we are building out our network. - Original Message - From: "Butch Evans" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: "WISPA General List" wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 9:06 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information On Mon, 24 Nov 2008, Chuck McCown - 3 wrote: I think the canopy 450 will do something like 30 down and 10 up. So that could give you 20 simultaneously which statistically could work if you had 50-100 on an AP. Ok, so you have 20 people on one AP pulling 2Meg each which is 40 meg stream. If you have just 3 towers like that, you will have 120Meg streaming. At $50/sub, you have 60*50 = $3k/month in revenue for those that are using that 120Meg. You'd NEVER get 120Meg delivered to rural America (at least not in MY area) for that kind of money. A DS3 here with 45Meg would be around $4500/month after you include the transport. What am I missing? Canopy isn't the answer...the question isn't JUST the last mile, but the business model overall. The problem CAN be solved at the last mile, but when people are demanding streaming services they will have to understand that $50 commodity service isn't the answer. I'd be happy to deliver ANYONE with a dedicated service level of 2,3 even 10M, but it won't be $50/month. -- * Butch Evans * Professional Network Consultation* * http://www.butchevans.com/ * Network Engineering* * http://www.wispa.org/ * WISPA Board Member* * http://blog.butchevans.com/ * Wired or Wireless Networks* WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information
Check out Garrison Utah or Burbank Nevada. Doesn't get much more rural than that. Of course I have spent the most part of the last 20 years slowly building a fiber and microwave network to get to all these areas. - Original Message - From: Butch Evans [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 9:24 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information On Mon, 24 Nov 2008, Chuck McCown - 3 wrote: I deliver 100 mbps wholesale to many rural areas for $3-4K/month type of figure. That includes transport. And stastically, you can oversub it, even with streaming content. You are never going to have all 20 streaming movies all at the same time. I am willing to take the chance. That is how we are building out our network. Can you deliver that speed for that price to 802 Stokelan Drive in Malden, MO? If you can, you're the ONLY one who can. -- * Butch Evans * Professional Network Consultation* * http://www.butchevans.com/ * Network Engineering* * http://www.wispa.org/ * WISPA Board Member* * http://blog.butchevans.com/ * Wired or Wireless Networks* WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information
OK, maybe not for you. But I am still going to be there trying. And when it fails you can tell me you told me so. - Original Message - From: Travis Johnson To: WISPA General List Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 9:24 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information You can't oversubscribe it by very much. Most people watch TV from 6:00 to 10:00PM. What happens when they want to watch TV and it just doesn't work? What will you do then? It's not that it will just be slow or sluggish as normal internet services can be when oversubscribed, it just will not work. So then what? Travis Microserv Chuck McCown - 3 wrote: I deliver 100 mbps wholesale to many rural areas for $3-4K/month type of figure. That includes transport. And stastically, you can oversub it, even with streaming content. You are never going to have all 20 streaming movies all at the same time. I am willing to take the chance. That is how we are building out our network. - Original Message - From: Butch Evans [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 9:06 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information On Mon, 24 Nov 2008, Chuck McCown - 3 wrote: I think the canopy 450 will do something like 30 down and 10 up. So that could give you 20 simultaneously which statistically could work if you had 50-100 on an AP. Ok, so you have 20 people on one AP pulling 2Meg each which is 40 meg stream. If you have just 3 towers like that, you will have 120Meg streaming. At $50/sub, you have 60*50 = $3k/month in revenue for those that are using that 120Meg. You'd NEVER get 120Meg delivered to rural America (at least not in MY area) for that kind of money. A DS3 here with 45Meg would be around $4500/month after you include the transport. What am I missing? Canopy isn't the answer...the question isn't JUST the last mile, but the business model overall. The problem CAN be solved at the last mile, but when people are demanding streaming services they will have to understand that $50 commodity service isn't the answer. I'd be happy to deliver ANYONE with a dedicated service level of 2,3 even 10M, but it won't be $50/month. -- * Butch Evans * Professional Network Consultation* * http://www.butchevans.com/ * Network Engineering* * http://www.wispa.org/ * WISPA Board Member* * http://blog.butchevans.com/ * Wired or Wireless Networks* WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
[WISPA] WiMax delays?
I don't think this is entirely true. For us, it becomes a "value" decision. If there was an AP that would deliver 100Mbps and could support 1000 subscribers, I would be willing to pay $10,000+ for it today. There is a real "gap" in the products that are available on the market: At the bottom = Linksys Next = Mikrotik Next = Trango, Canopy, etc gap Top = licensed Alvarion, Redline, etc. This is the market that is not being served. There are plenty of backhaul solutions, router solutions, etc. but the very last mile AP/CPE for the "higher end" is what is missing. I'm not interested in paying $50,000 per base station (Alvarion WiMax), but I don't want to pay $10,000 for a solution that uses an entire band (Canopy 5700 for example) and only delivers 84Mbps of total capacity (when even lower end products can deliver 2x or 3x that in the same spectrum). So, again, why hasn't there been an evolution of products the last 2-3 years? Did everyone stop normal RD to focus on WiMax? Travis Microserv Butch Evans wrote: On Mon, 24 Nov 2008, Mike Hammett wrote: Where has the innovation in the last few years gone?/rant How many in this industry bitch and moan over the cost of gear? How many would purchase an AP at under $200 and STILL think that's too high? How many in this industry are willing to purchase something JUST BECAUSE IT IS CHEAPER? Look at how many people in this industry are using DSL as a transport to the Internet. Answer THOSE questions and you'll begin the see the answer to YOUR question. The problem isn't just "us". The "big boys" have been busy trying to drive pricing levels down in an attempt to "buy the market". And too many of "us" have decided that we have to compete on price alone, so we found ways to cut cost by buying cheaper gear (there are 2 WISPs within a 30 minute drive of my house that are selling service using Linksys gear for APs). There is at least 3 WISPs whose service would cover my house that have DSL for their internet connection. I'm not condemming the practice as much as I am attempting to illustrate WHY the innovation is leaving the industry. It is NOT gone. It just doesn't exist in the price range that MOST people are willing to pay (WISPs, that is). WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information
On Mon, 24 Nov 2008, Chuck McCown - 3 wrote: Check out Garrison Utah or Burbank Nevada. Doesn't get much more rural than that. Of course I have spent the most part of the last 20 years slowly building a fiber and microwave network to get to all these areas. 1. I never said that you can't get those kinds of access for reasonable prices in ANY part of rural America. 2. You are quoting micro economics in a macro economics discussion. Put another way, you are using personal experience under the assumption that it somehow relates to the rest of the world...it doesn't. -- * Butch Evans * Professional Network Consultation* * http://www.butchevans.com/* Network Engineering * * http://www.wispa.org/ * WISPA Board Member * * http://blog.butchevans.com/ * Wired or Wireless Networks * WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays?
Where do you rate Ubiquity Nanostations or the Bullet? - Original Message - From: Travis Johnson To: WISPA General List Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 9:32 PM Subject: [WISPA] WiMax delays? I don't think this is entirely true. For us, it becomes a value decision. If there was an AP that would deliver 100Mbps and could support 1000 subscribers, I would be willing to pay $10,000+ for it today. There is a real gap in the products that are available on the market: At the bottom = Linksys Next = Mikrotik Next = Trango, Canopy, etc gap Top = licensed Alvarion, Redline, etc. This is the market that is not being served. There are plenty of backhaul solutions, router solutions, etc. but the very last mile AP/CPE for the higher end is what is missing. I'm not interested in paying $50,000 per base station (Alvarion WiMax), but I don't want to pay $10,000 for a solution that uses an entire band (Canopy 5700 for example) and only delivers 84Mbps of total capacity (when even lower end products can deliver 2x or 3x that in the same spectrum). So, again, why hasn't there been an evolution of products the last 2-3 years? Did everyone stop normal RD to focus on WiMax? Travis Microserv Butch Evans wrote: On Mon, 24 Nov 2008, Mike Hammett wrote: Where has the innovation in the last few years gone?/rant How many in this industry bitch and moan over the cost of gear? How many would purchase an AP at under $200 and STILL think that's too high? How many in this industry are willing to purchase something JUST BECAUSE IT IS CHEAPER? Look at how many people in this industry are using DSL as a transport to the Internet. Answer THOSE questions and you'll begin the see the answer to YOUR question. The problem isn't just us. The big boys have been busy trying to drive pricing levels down in an attempt to buy the market. And too many of us have decided that we have to compete on price alone, so we found ways to cut cost by buying cheaper gear (there are 2 WISPs within a 30 minute drive of my house that are selling service using Linksys gear for APs). There is at least 3 WISPs whose service would cover my house that have DSL for their internet connection. I'm not condemming the practice as much as I am attempting to illustrate WHY the innovation is leaving the industry. It is NOT gone. It just doesn't exist in the price range that MOST people are willing to pay (WISPs, that is). -- WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays?
My guess is yes on the WiMAX question. Because it was a buzz word, they could get investment dollars if you mentioned WiMAX. How many people here are buying WiMAX because it's the new and fancy? WiMAX isn't necessarily all that bad if they offered 20 MHz channels for half the price. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com From: Travis Johnson Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 10:32 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: [WISPA] WiMax delays? I don't think this is entirely true. For us, it becomes a value decision. If there was an AP that would deliver 100Mbps and could support 1000 subscribers, I would be willing to pay $10,000+ for it today. There is a real gap in the products that are available on the market: At the bottom = Linksys Next = Mikrotik Next = Trango, Canopy, etc gap Top = licensed Alvarion, Redline, etc. This is the market that is not being served. There are plenty of backhaul solutions, router solutions, etc. but the very last mile AP/CPE for the higher end is what is missing. I'm not interested in paying $50,000 per base station (Alvarion WiMax), but I don't want to pay $10,000 for a solution that uses an entire band (Canopy 5700 for example) and only delivers 84Mbps of total capacity (when even lower end products can deliver 2x or 3x that in the same spectrum). So, again, why hasn't there been an evolution of products the last 2-3 years? Did everyone stop normal RD to focus on WiMax? Travis Microserv Butch Evans wrote: On Mon, 24 Nov 2008, Mike Hammett wrote: Where has the innovation in the last few years gone?/rant How many in this industry bitch and moan over the cost of gear? How many would purchase an AP at under $200 and STILL think that's too high? How many in this industry are willing to purchase something JUST BECAUSE IT IS CHEAPER? Look at how many people in this industry are using DSL as a transport to the Internet. Answer THOSE questions and you'll begin the see the answer to YOUR question. The problem isn't just us. The big boys have been busy trying to drive pricing levels down in an attempt to buy the market. And too many of us have decided that we have to compete on price alone, so we found ways to cut cost by buying cheaper gear (there are 2 WISPs within a 30 minute drive of my house that are selling service using Linksys gear for APs). There is at least 3 WISPs whose service would cover my house that have DSL for their internet connection. I'm not condemming the practice as much as I am attempting to illustrate WHY the innovation is leaving the industry. It is NOT gone. It just doesn't exist in the price range that MOST people are willing to pay (WISPs, that is). WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays?
On Mon, 24 Nov 2008, Travis Johnson wrote: I don't think this is entirely true. For us, it becomes a value decision. If there was an AP that would deliver 100Mbps and could support 1000 subscribers, I would be willing to pay $10,000+ for it today. There is a real gap in the products that are available on the market: I don't disagree with your assessment of the current product matrix. I don't even assume that ALL WISPs are cheap. I am not sure I would say that even MOST of them are cheap. But enough of them are that the middle of the road products you want are missing in action. Next = Mikrotik Next = Trango, Canopy, etc Since they have fixed their wireless, I'd put MT in the same class as Trango and Canopy. So, again, why hasn't there been an evolution of products the last 2-3 years? Did everyone stop normal RD to focus on WiMax? I have an opinion (which I stated in rant form) about what happened to the RD. The Canopy line (which is a very nice radio) is a good example. Motorola has delivered a product that just works. It is expensive compared to other products sold to the same marketplace, but it is NOT expensive for what it delivers. Better, yet, they are working to make a new product line that will improve upon what is available today. But their primary market isn't the normal WISP. They service companies that are better funded, which typically means larger WISPs, cable companies and telcos. I really hope I didn't offend anyone with my rant. It wasn't intended to do that. I really just wish our industry as a whole would get out of the hole that we have dug with the cheaper is better mindframe. -- * Butch Evans * Professional Network Consultation* * http://www.butchevans.com/* Network Engineering * * http://www.wispa.org/ * WISPA Board Member * * http://blog.butchevans.com/ * Wired or Wireless Networks * WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays?
I must be using a different product line then everyone else here - the Trango Access 5800 has left quite a bit to be desired - short range and at most 7mbps throughput. Mikrotik (costing less new then Trango used) easily outperforms in wireless distance, throughput and (my favorite) capability. I have no experience with Canopy but I can imagine from all the great buffs it gets around here and their well known history in wireless I don't doubt it is a good product. Redline is to radios as Sony is to LCDs. Can't be beat in quality... Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 Those who don't understand UNIX are condemned to reinvent it, poorly. --- Henry Spencer On Mon, Nov 24, 2008 at 11:45 PM, Butch Evans [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Mon, 24 Nov 2008, Travis Johnson wrote: I don't think this is entirely true. For us, it becomes a value decision. If there was an AP that would deliver 100Mbps and could support 1000 subscribers, I would be willing to pay $10,000+ for it today. There is a real gap in the products that are available on the market: I don't disagree with your assessment of the current product matrix. I don't even assume that ALL WISPs are cheap. I am not sure I would say that even MOST of them are cheap. But enough of them are that the middle of the road products you want are missing in action. Next = Mikrotik Next = Trango, Canopy, etc Since they have fixed their wireless, I'd put MT in the same class as Trango and Canopy. So, again, why hasn't there been an evolution of products the last 2-3 years? Did everyone stop normal RD to focus on WiMax? I have an opinion (which I stated in rant form) about what happened to the RD. The Canopy line (which is a very nice radio) is a good example. Motorola has delivered a product that just works. It is expensive compared to other products sold to the same marketplace, but it is NOT expensive for what it delivers. Better, yet, they are working to make a new product line that will improve upon what is available today. But their primary market isn't the normal WISP. They service companies that are better funded, which typically means larger WISPs, cable companies and telcos. I really hope I didn't offend anyone with my rant. It wasn't intended to do that. I really just wish our industry as a whole would get out of the hole that we have dug with the cheaper is better mindframe. -- * Butch Evans * Professional Network Consultation* * http://www.butchevans.com/* Network Engineering * * http://www.wispa.org/ * WISPA Board Member * * http://blog.butchevans.com/ * Wired or Wireless Networks * WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays?
On the same level as Mikrotik... maybe just slightly below (because of the lack of a proprietary protocol with polling like Nstreme), but above Linksys, etc. Travis Chuck McCown - 3 wrote: Where do you rate Ubiquity Nanostations or the Bullet? - Original Message - From: Travis Johnson To: WISPA General List Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 9:32 PM Subject: [WISPA] WiMax delays? I don't think this is entirely true. For us, it becomes a value decision. If there was an AP that would deliver 100Mbps and could support 1000 subscribers, I would be willing to pay $10,000+ for it today. There is a real gap in the products that are available on the market: At the bottom = Linksys Next = Mikrotik Next = Trango, Canopy, etc gap Top = licensed Alvarion, Redline, etc. This is the market that is not being served. There are plenty of backhaul solutions, router solutions, etc. but the very last mile AP/CPE for the higher end is what is missing. I'm not interested in paying $50,000 per base station (Alvarion WiMax), but I don't want to pay $10,000 for a solution that uses an entire band (Canopy 5700 for example) and only delivers 84Mbps of total capacity (when even lower end products can deliver 2x or 3x that in the same spectrum). So, again, why hasn't there been an evolution of products the last 2-3 years? Did everyone stop normal RD to focus on WiMax? Travis Microserv Butch Evans wrote: On Mon, 24 Nov 2008, Mike Hammett wrote: Where has the innovation in the last few years gone?/rant How many in this industry bitch and moan over the cost of gear? How many would purchase an AP at under $200 and STILL think that's too high? How many in this industry are willing to purchase something JUST BECAUSE IT IS CHEAPER? Look at how many people in this industry are using DSL as a transport to the Internet. Answer THOSE questions and you'll begin the see the answer to YOUR question. The problem isn't just us. The big boys have been busy trying to drive pricing levels down in an attempt to buy the market. And too many of us have decided that we have to compete on price alone, so we found ways to cut cost by buying cheaper gear (there are 2 WISPs within a 30 minute drive of my house that are selling service using Linksys gear for APs). There is at least 3 WISPs whose service would cover my house that have DSL for their internet connection. I'm not condemming the practice as much as I am attempting to illustrate WHY the innovation is leaving the industry. It is NOT gone. It just doesn't exist in the price range that MOST people are willing to pay (WISPs, that is). -- WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information
Why not deploy some dragonwave and other high capacity backbone and build your own network to cheap BW. Build to St. Louis with a large microwave backbone and you will wholesale all along its entire length. More than enough to pay for it. - Original Message - From: Butch Evans [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 9:50 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information On Mon, 24 Nov 2008, Chuck McCown - 3 wrote: What I have done, you can do too. Just takes lots of time and work and bootstrapping. Ok..so we're gonna put this whole netflix thing on hold for the next 20 years so that I can bury enough fiber to support it? It seems that you are trying to make a point that is not related in any way to the NetFlix discussion at all (as the subject line would indicate). I'm not minimizing your accomplishments. I think that it says a LOT about you AND this country that you could accomplish that. I am, however, still stuck with the reality that a LARGE part of rural America faces. There is simply not enough bandwidth available at affordable prices to support the kind of requirements that we are discussing. Sure, I could bury a 180 mile long fiber to St. Louis, but I seriously doubt anyone would call THAT affordable bandwidth. -- * Butch Evans * Professional Network Consultation* * http://www.butchevans.com/ * Network Engineering* * http://www.wispa.org/ * WISPA Board Member* * http://blog.butchevans.com/ * Wired or Wireless Networks* WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays?
Josh, I think this was the point. The Trango 5800 series (the 5830 radio) was the top of the line product when it first came out (2001 or 2002 I think). There was nothing else on the market (including Canopy) when Trango first started shipping this product. However, nothing has been done with it since then. They made two failed attempts, and have now given up on a successor to the product line. Travis Microserv Josh Luthman wrote: I must be using a different product line then everyone else here - the Trango Access 5800 has left quite a bit to be desired - short range and at most 7mbps throughput. Mikrotik (costing less new then Trango used) easily outperforms in wireless distance, throughput and (my favorite) capability. I have no experience with Canopy but I can imagine from all the great buffs it gets around here and their well known history in wireless I don't doubt it is a good product. Redline is to radios as Sony is to LCDs. Can't be beat in quality... Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 Those who don't understand UNIX are condemned to reinvent it, poorly. --- Henry Spencer On Mon, Nov 24, 2008 at 11:45 PM, Butch Evans [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Mon, 24 Nov 2008, Travis Johnson wrote: I don't think this is entirely true. For us, it becomes a "value" decision. If there was an AP that would deliver 100Mbps and could support 1000 subscribers, I would be willing to pay $10,000+ for it today. There is a real "gap" in the products that are available on the market: I don't disagree with your assessment of the current product matrix. I don't even assume that ALL WISPs are "cheap". I am not sure I would say that even MOST of them are cheap. But enough of them are that the middle of the road products you want are missing in action. Next = Mikrotik Next = Trango, Canopy, etc Since they have fixed their wireless, I'd put MT in the same class as Trango and Canopy. So, again, why hasn't there been an evolution of products the last 2-3 years? Did everyone stop normal RD to focus on WiMax? I have an opinion (which I stated in rant form) about what happened to the RD. The Canopy line (which is a very nice radio) is a good example. Motorola has delivered a product that just works. It is expensive compared to other products sold to the same "marketplace", but it is NOT expensive for what it delivers. Better, yet, they are working to make a new product line that will improve upon what is available today. But their primary market isn't the "normal" WISP. They service companies that are better funded, which typically means larger WISPs, cable companies and telcos. I really hope I didn't offend anyone with my rant. It wasn't intended to do that. I really just wish our industry as a whole would get out of the hole that we have dug with the "cheaper is better" mindframe. -- * Butch Evans * Professional Network Consultation* * http://www.butchevans.com/* Network Engineering * * http://www.wispa.org/ * WISPA Board Member * * http://blog.butchevans.com/ * Wired or Wireless Networks * WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays?
Butch, As much as I like Mikrotik (I have been using it for ptp backhauls for over 4 years now) and recently ptmp for customers, the ptmp is not on the same level as Canopy or Trango. Having a hardware based scheduler is something that just can not be done in software. The latest improvement did make a huge difference, but it still doesn't compare to a Trango AP that can be fully loaded (2.4ghz, 126 subs, 5Mbps total capacity) and deliver 4ms latency to every single subscriber. :) Travis Microserv Butch Evans wrote: On Mon, 24 Nov 2008, Travis Johnson wrote: I don't think this is entirely true. For us, it becomes a "value" decision. If there was an AP that would deliver 100Mbps and could support 1000 subscribers, I would be willing to pay $10,000+ for it today. There is a real "gap" in the products that are available on the market: I don't disagree with your assessment of the current product matrix. I don't even assume that ALL WISPs are "cheap". I am not sure I would say that even MOST of them are cheap. But enough of them are that the middle of the road products you want are missing in action. Next = Mikrotik Next = Trango, Canopy, etc Since they have fixed their wireless, I'd put MT in the same class as Trango and Canopy. So, again, why hasn't there been an evolution of products the last 2-3 years? Did everyone stop normal RD to focus on WiMax? I have an opinion (which I stated in rant form) about what happened to the RD. The Canopy line (which is a very nice radio) is a good example. Motorola has delivered a product that just works. It is expensive compared to other products sold to the same "marketplace", but it is NOT expensive for what it delivers. Better, yet, they are working to make a new product line that will improve upon what is available today. But their primary market isn't the "normal" WISP. They service companies that are better funded, which typically means larger WISPs, cable companies and telcos. I really hope I didn't offend anyone with my rant. It wasn't intended to do that. I really just wish our industry as a whole would get out of the hole that we have dug with the "cheaper is better" mindframe. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays?
If you hang out over at [EMAIL PROTECTED] you will find more than a hundred WISPs, many of them very small operations from 100-1000 subscribers that are 100% canopy. And generally speaking they are kicking butt and taking names in their markets. I disagree that Canopy is not marketed to the smaller WISPS. It costs a little more to deploy but you earn it back with a fixed guaranteed latency, high priority for voip, 10 mbps burst and many other features that keep the customer happy and retained. Come to AF09 and see how Motorola markets to the smaller WISPS. Moreover their new 430 line delivers better performance for the price than Redline or Alvarion. And they are still innovating. While I will admit I have a vested interest in seeing Canopy continue to have legs, I don't think my opinions are unfounded. It is funny how the Canopy product line is so polarizing in this industry. I picked it entirely by chance. It was either Canopy or Proxim. I am glad I picked what I picked. Many others picked Trango. They are able to make it work and earn money. I know of some folks that abandoned Trango for Canopy. Don't personally know anyone who went the other way but I am sure that someone will educated me to that situation as soon as I press the send button. I don't understand human psychology well enough to even begin to explain why this is such a polarizing topic. Cognitive dissonance seems to come into play. - Original Message - From: Butch Evans [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 9:45 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays? On Mon, 24 Nov 2008, Travis Johnson wrote: I don't think this is entirely true. For us, it becomes a value decision. If there was an AP that would deliver 100Mbps and could support 1000 subscribers, I would be willing to pay $10,000+ for it today. There is a real gap in the products that are available on the market: I don't disagree with your assessment of the current product matrix. I don't even assume that ALL WISPs are cheap. I am not sure I would say that even MOST of them are cheap. But enough of them are that the middle of the road products you want are missing in action. Next = Mikrotik Next = Trango, Canopy, etc Since they have fixed their wireless, I'd put MT in the same class as Trango and Canopy. So, again, why hasn't there been an evolution of products the last 2-3 years? Did everyone stop normal RD to focus on WiMax? I have an opinion (which I stated in rant form) about what happened to the RD. The Canopy line (which is a very nice radio) is a good example. Motorola has delivered a product that just works. It is expensive compared to other products sold to the same marketplace, but it is NOT expensive for what it delivers. Better, yet, they are working to make a new product line that will improve upon what is available today. But their primary market isn't the normal WISP. They service companies that are better funded, which typically means larger WISPs, cable companies and telcos. I really hope I didn't offend anyone with my rant. It wasn't intended to do that. I really just wish our industry as a whole would get out of the hole that we have dug with the cheaper is better mindframe. -- * Butch Evans * Professional Network Consultation* * http://www.butchevans.com/ * Network Engineering* * http://www.wispa.org/ * WISPA Board Member* * http://blog.butchevans.com/ * Wired or Wireless Networks* WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information
Dennis Burgess - LinkTechs.net wrote: Simple as this... Even if you can supply this bandwidth.. 1. Avg Customer usage goes up. 2. Over subscription rate goes down. 3. Network costs go up to meet increased demand 4. Per Sub costs go up due to the higher usage 5. Profit per sub goes down. Increase back-end costs but no increase in profit = Bankrupt Company Or you can.. 1. Avg Customer Usage goes up 2. Network costs go up 3. Avg cost per sub goes up 4. Pass cost onto customer Regardless, its business 101. If your costs put you into a position that your existing pricing don't make enough money, you have to, reduce costs, or increase income. The idea is how to do this without loosing customers (some you will anyways). But as Sam said, loose the high end customers that use your network and keep on trucking. Comcast I think did this a while back, dumping around 2000 subscribers, due to their usage! Why do you think also sat connections have that FAP, cause they can't just upgrade their backhauls etc Its a major expense. One argument that I have had people tell me, is that the ISP should know this is coming and should have planned for it. Cost of doing business. I don't think that is true, a small increase in usage yes, but we are talking tripling otherwise low usage connections, if not more. -- * Dennis Burgess, CCNA, A+, Mikrotik Certified Trainer WISPA Board Member - wispa.org http://www.wispa.org/ Link Technologies, Inc -- Mikrotik WISP Support Services* *Office*: 314-735-0270 *Website*: http://www.linktechs.net http://www.linktechs.net/ */ Link Technologies, Inc is offering LIVE Mikrotik On-Line Training http://www.linktechs.net/onlinetraining.asp/* I think the idea that we will charge more for the internet in the future is not likely. Although it is true that we will have to add capacity at a cost to us, it's also true that most wisps are continuously building out anyways. We add towers, ap's new backhauls routers and servers continously. It's also true that any wisp who has been around longer than a few years knows there is additional costs that start ups may not typically think about, replacing existing equipment. If you look back 5 years ago and was looking for a high capacity PtP link, it was a lot more money for less bits. Our bandwidth costs were much higher, and some of our labor expenses were higher. Ie; how much did a good programer cost 10 years ago?, how about 5? today. most likely less. I've watched my cost fall dramatically over the past 10 years, it's one of the bright spots of this industry. What I do with my new found savings is reinvest in my network. So the cost to meet the future needs of our subscribers is real, it's not as hard to swallow as one might think. If they preplan and have a good investment stratery it should be business as usuall. George WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays?
Chuck, We don't use Canopy just because my competitors are using it. And really, any more, the customer doesn't care HOW the bandwidth gets delivered. So why not use a product that can deliver twice the bandwidth for 1/3 the price? ;) Travis Microserv Chuck McCown - 3 wrote: If you hang out over at [EMAIL PROTECTED] you will find more than a hundred WISPs, many of them very small operations from 100-1000 subscribers that are 100% canopy. And generally speaking they are kicking butt and taking names in their markets. I disagree that Canopy is not marketed to the smaller WISPS. It costs a little more to deploy but you earn it back with a fixed guaranteed latency, high priority for voip, 10 mbps burst and many other features that keep the customer happy and retained. Come to AF09 and see how Motorola markets to the smaller WISPS. Moreover their new 430 line delivers better performance for the price than Redline or Alvarion. And they are still innovating. While I will admit I have a vested interest in seeing Canopy continue to have legs, I don't think my opinions are unfounded. It is funny how the Canopy product line is so polarizing in this industry. I picked it entirely by chance. It was either Canopy or Proxim. I am glad I picked what I picked. Many others picked Trango. They are able to make it work and earn money. I know of some folks that abandoned Trango for Canopy. Don't personally know anyone who went the other way but I am sure that someone will educated me to that situation as soon as I press the send button. I don't understand human psychology well enough to even begin to explain why this is such a polarizing topic. Cognitive dissonance seems to come into play. - Original Message - From: "Butch Evans" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: "WISPA General List" wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 9:45 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays? On Mon, 24 Nov 2008, Travis Johnson wrote: I don't think this is entirely true. For us, it becomes a "value" decision. If there was an AP that would deliver 100Mbps and could support 1000 subscribers, I would be willing to pay $10,000+ for it today. There is a real "gap" in the products that are available on the market: I don't disagree with your assessment of the current product matrix. I don't even assume that ALL WISPs are "cheap". I am not sure I would say that even MOST of them are cheap. But enough of them are that the middle of the road products you want are missing in action. Next = Mikrotik Next = Trango, Canopy, etc Since they have fixed their wireless, I'd put MT in the same class as Trango and Canopy. So, again, why hasn't there been an evolution of products the last 2-3 years? Did everyone stop normal RD to focus on WiMax? I have an opinion (which I stated in rant form) about what happened to the RD. The Canopy line (which is a very nice radio) is a good example. Motorola has delivered a product that just works. It is expensive compared to other products sold to the same "marketplace", but it is NOT expensive for what it delivers. Better, yet, they are working to make a new product line that will improve upon what is available today. But their primary market isn't the "normal" WISP. They service companies that are better funded, which typically means larger WISPs, cable companies and telcos. I really hope I didn't offend anyone with my rant. It wasn't intended to do that. I really just wish our industry as a whole would get out of the hole that we have dug with the "cheaper is better" mindframe. -- * Butch Evans * Professional Network Consultation* * http://www.butchevans.com/ * Network Engineering* * http://www.wispa.org/ * WISPA Board Member* * http://blog.butchevans.com/ * Wired or Wireless Networks* WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/
Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information
I think he's saying that no one has tried hard enough to do it in every part... People like Chuck are here and there, but few are putting forth the serious amount of effort to make it happen. I think in the years coming, the average WISP will be significantly larger than they are now... not through organic growth, but through acquisition. Within a 1 hour's drive from me there's at least a half dozen WISPs with customer counts in the thousands. I believe one has 5k and another has 7k. In my area, a WISP with 500 customers should have fiber into the carrier hotels. Perhaps in south eastern MO, a WISP would need to have 5k customers to make the haul to St. Louis or Memphis... Actually, bad example, there's dark fiber available between St. Louis and Memphis though I forget it's exact path in your area. My point is that companies will start consolidating to both be able to take advantage of those fiber routes and once they have the fiber, to put more cash in their pockets. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: Butch Evans [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 10:36 PM To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information On Mon, 24 Nov 2008, Chuck McCown - 3 wrote: Check out Garrison Utah or Burbank Nevada. Doesn't get much more rural than that. Of course I have spent the most part of the last 20 years slowly building a fiber and microwave network to get to all these areas. 1. I never said that you can't get those kinds of access for reasonable prices in ANY part of rural America. 2. You are quoting micro economics in a macro economics discussion. Put another way, you are using personal experience under the assumption that it somehow relates to the rest of the world...it doesn't. -- * Butch Evans * Professional Network Consultation* * http://www.butchevans.com/ * Network Engineering* * http://www.wispa.org/ * WISPA Board Member* * http://blog.butchevans.com/ * Wired or Wireless Networks* WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information
Obviously my other mail hadn't made it to the list when you sent that, but I'd estimate you'd only have to string (aerial is significantly cheaper and has less incidents per mile) 20 miles... you can buy the other 160 or what have you. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: Butch Evans [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 10:50 PM To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information On Mon, 24 Nov 2008, Chuck McCown - 3 wrote: What I have done, you can do too. Just takes lots of time and work and bootstrapping. Ok..so we're gonna put this whole netflix thing on hold for the next 20 years so that I can bury enough fiber to support it? It seems that you are trying to make a point that is not related in any way to the NetFlix discussion at all (as the subject line would indicate). I'm not minimizing your accomplishments. I think that it says a LOT about you AND this country that you could accomplish that. I am, however, still stuck with the reality that a LARGE part of rural America faces. There is simply not enough bandwidth available at affordable prices to support the kind of requirements that we are discussing. Sure, I could bury a 180 mile long fiber to St. Louis, but I seriously doubt anyone would call THAT affordable bandwidth. -- * Butch Evans * Professional Network Consultation* * http://www.butchevans.com/ * Network Engineering* * http://www.wispa.org/ * WISPA Board Member* * http://blog.butchevans.com/ * Wired or Wireless Networks* WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information
My numbers are a couple years old, but I'll throw them out there... $300k for a 20 year IRU on fiber into 3 major carrier hotels in Chicago. $20k to bring the fiber to my NOC from the route. $20k - $30k for all optics, routers, etc. $500/month per carrier hotel for space. $0 - $500/month per cross connect. $500/month per exchange to join, though not necessary for private peering (direct link to the carrier's gear instead of going to a public switch) At that stage, I'd have connectivity to the following networks: CIFNet GoWebMan Limelight (both exchanges) Alentus Alpha Red Atlantic Metro BitGravity Honeycomb ISC Mzima (International carrier) OpenDNS Packet Clearing House Steadfast Tiscali (International carrier) Ubiquity (not the same we all know) Voxel (International carrier) WBS Connect (International carrier) WV Fiber (International carrier) Your.org Akamai and Google are in the process of connecting. Obviously not necessary for my current operations, but a good value if I had many of your networks where I am. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: Sam Tetherow [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 7:54 PM To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information So how much would 10GigE be to your NOC? Sam Tetherow Sandhills Wireless Mike Hammett wrote: Depends on where it's coming from. As I said, a 10 GigE to the CDNs (which is where most of the bandwidth is going to be going these days), the price is just equipment and cross connects. Public Peering with route servers (depending on the exchange) gets you 10 GigE for $500 (definitely not Equinix). There are transport costs, but 10GigE equipment isn't THAT expensive. I'm not saying it's free, but it's damn cheap. People will use pay as you go to reduce usage of their antiquated equipment instead of cost recovery for better gear and MRC. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: Sam Tetherow [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 1:50 PM To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information Mike Hammett wrote: The billing model is irrelevant if the gear can't do it in the first place. You could charge $10/megabyte transferred and it would be meaningless if you can't deliver what the customer wants. Wants and willing to pay for a two different things. I want a AC Cobra and I want to be able to drive it as fast I can on the highway, however I'm not ready to pay for either ;) I have always said I can deliver what the customer wants if the customer is willing to pay for it. Yes, the standard billing model needs to change, but using it as an artificial barrier isn't exactly the best thing to do, even if it is the only thing you can do at this time. I don't see how charging by the bit is an artificial barrier. Do you think charging for gas by the gallon is an artificial barrier? As ISPs we have a commodity that we sell, bandwidth. We pay a fixed price for that bandwidth and then resell that bandwidth to our customers at a markup to cover operating expense and a reasonable return on investment. Charging a customer by their actually usage is the most 'real' method of billing. In fact the unlimited model is the artificial one that is used to entice people into buying. If the customer always fully utilized their $30/month worth of bandwidth you would go broke. It would be silly for fiber based networks to charge for usage at this time. They have no practical capacity limits. Go ahead, pull 100 mbit/s on your $75/month account... it costs them almost nil on a recurring basis because of 10GE connections to the CDNs... limelight, akami, Youtube, etc. There is always a practical limit. Are you telling me that fiber providers are paying $0.75/mbit/s for their upstream? Sam Tetherow Sandhills Wireless Networks would rather you pull 100 megs from a CDN because of the high capacity low price links to them, instead of going over peering sessions with other networks, which usually have more contractual restriction. Let me restate the issue... There is almost zero cost in connecting to the networks that house the big bandwidth intensive sites. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: Sam Tetherow [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 12:50 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information I couldn't imagine how the logistics of this would work. What makes sense is if your customer uses more bandwidth, then they pay for it. Everything else is just an
Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information
Amen, nobody ever said you could build it and rest on your laurels. No small business is safe from changes that come with time. Evolve or die. I am not going to sit around complaining the sky is falling. So the cost to meet the future needs of our subscribers is real, it's not as hard to swallow as one might think. If they preplan and have a good investment stratery it should be business as usuall. George WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Customer issue - data stream halts, can't email
There might be your answer. Outlook. Many outlook setups, if connecting to a Exchange server have allot different setting then a standard POP. If it is an exchange connection. I would recommend setting up a connection in your office and giving them 15 min free time on your net. Make sure it works there. Could be a SSL issue, They could be using a VPN for Exchange, Could be using non standard ports that you are inadvertently blocking, could be that their office made a change and did not tell everyone. Steve RC-WiFi -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Josh Luthman Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 11:12 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Customer issue - data stream halts, can't email That is the one thing I haven't tried. I would have to configure their Outlook settings on my laptop which includes installing Outlook itself... Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 Those who don't understand UNIX are condemned to reinvent it, poorly. --- Henry Spencer On Mon, Nov 24, 2008 at 11:17 PM, Scottie Arnett [EMAIL PROTECTED]wrote: I have saw spyware and/or trojans cause this. Been a PC technician about 6 times longer than a WISP. As much as it hurts, sometimes these things require a truckroll and a hookup of your clean laptop to prove it to the client. I think the original poster said there were more than one PC behind this connection...that doesn't mean they have not all visited the same location and picked up the same bug. I have 4 to 6 PC's running in my house at any one time, and I visit mostly the same sites on each. If you have exhausted all other possibilites, take your own machine and plug directly into your equipment and see what happens...you may have already done this, I have not followed the whole thread. Scottie -- Original Message -- From: Marlon K. Schafer [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 19:56:16 -0800 I recently had a customer's system do that. Worked FINE with my laptop and his iphone. Was some very strange computer problem. I told them to take the machine to a shop. marlon - Original Message - From: Josh Luthman [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 7:39 AM Subject: [WISPA] Customer issue - data stream halts, can't email I have a customer running behind a Trango 900 radio. She explains that many web pages (those heavy with images) never fully load and neither of her two email accounts work (using Outlook, the outgoing message just sits in the outbox). I have thousands of pings to this radio from the core router and only lost a few (99.99% returned). The customer is only there for a short time so it's difficult to get any worth while packet captures. They're currently on a Linksys WRT54g and I put in a MikroTik RB433 and 2.4 card - the issue remained. I have swapped both of the radios - AP and SU (as they're the only subscriber on this AP). Thanks in advance for any suggestions! Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 Those who don't understand UNIX are condemned to reinvent it, poorly. --- Henry Spencer WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ --- - WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ --- - WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] Wireless High Speed Broadband service from Info-Ed, Inc. as low as $30.00/mth. Check out www.info-ed.com/wireless.html for information. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/
Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays?
The very best reason to use canopy is because the competitors are using it. It can peacefully coexist with other systems due to gps sync. We are in very tight quarters with a fierce competitor in one very small market. But we never cause each other technical grief. What other product can give my customers 20.2 Mbps (including guaranteed 7 mS latency with 130 subs on an AP?) for $70/sub? - Original Message - From: Travis Johnson To: WISPA General List Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 10:07 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays? Chuck, We don't use Canopy just because my competitors are using it. And really, any more, the customer doesn't care HOW the bandwidth gets delivered. So why not use a product that can deliver twice the bandwidth for 1/3 the price? ;) Travis Microserv Chuck McCown - 3 wrote: If you hang out over at [EMAIL PROTECTED] you will find more than a hundred WISPs, many of them very small operations from 100-1000 subscribers that are 100% canopy. And generally speaking they are kicking butt and taking names in their markets. I disagree that Canopy is not marketed to the smaller WISPS. It costs a little more to deploy but you earn it back with a fixed guaranteed latency, high priority for voip, 10 mbps burst and many other features that keep the customer happy and retained. Come to AF09 and see how Motorola markets to the smaller WISPS. Moreover their new 430 line delivers better performance for the price than Redline or Alvarion. And they are still innovating. While I will admit I have a vested interest in seeing Canopy continue to have legs, I don't think my opinions are unfounded. It is funny how the Canopy product line is so polarizing in this industry. I picked it entirely by chance. It was either Canopy or Proxim. I am glad I picked what I picked. Many others picked Trango. They are able to make it work and earn money. I know of some folks that abandoned Trango for Canopy. Don't personally know anyone who went the other way but I am sure that someone will educated me to that situation as soon as I press the send button. I don't understand human psychology well enough to even begin to explain why this is such a polarizing topic. Cognitive dissonance seems to come into play. - Original Message - From: Butch Evans [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 9:45 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays? On Mon, 24 Nov 2008, Travis Johnson wrote: I don't think this is entirely true. For us, it becomes a value decision. If there was an AP that would deliver 100Mbps and could support 1000 subscribers, I would be willing to pay $10,000+ for it today. There is a real gap in the products that are available on the market: I don't disagree with your assessment of the current product matrix. I don't even assume that ALL WISPs are cheap. I am not sure I would say that even MOST of them are cheap. But enough of them are that the middle of the road products you want are missing in action. Next = Mikrotik Next = Trango, Canopy, etc Since they have fixed their wireless, I'd put MT in the same class as Trango and Canopy. So, again, why hasn't there been an evolution of products the last 2-3 years? Did everyone stop normal RD to focus on WiMax? I have an opinion (which I stated in rant form) about what happened to the RD. The Canopy line (which is a very nice radio) is a good example. Motorola has delivered a product that just works. It is expensive compared to other products sold to the same marketplace, but it is NOT expensive for what it delivers. Better, yet, they are working to make a new product line that will improve upon what is available today. But their primary market isn't the normal WISP. They service companies that are better funded, which typically means larger WISPs, cable companies and telcos. I really hope I didn't offend anyone with my rant. It wasn't intended to do that. I really just wish our industry as a whole would get out of the hole that we have dug with the cheaper is better mindframe. -- * Butch Evans * Professional Network Consultation* * http://www.butchevans.com/ * Network Engineering* * http://www.wispa.org/ * WISPA Board Member* * http://blog.butchevans.com/ * Wired or Wireless Networks* WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays?
A lot of folks have a philisophical problem adopting a product that seems to have been designed to cause interference to other equipment trying to share the same band. Tom S. I don't understand human psychology well enough to even begin to explain why this is such a polarizing topic. Cognitive dissonance seems to come into play. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information
Butch, I am not downplaying your response. The problem I am seeing is that my main competition is two rural cooperatives, the cable comp in my area is virtually nill. The cable co's are privately owned. I am not sure how they(cooperatives) are doing it, but they must be getting $$$ to fund their buildouts from somewhere besides the members? I was serving areas they were not 2 years ago, but now they are. And they are servicing them not only with DSL but video? I have to BITCH about the cost of gear, or not compete. I am a mostly Canopy shop at 900 Mhz, our area is 400 to 500 ft hills every mile or so. So, I have had to eat much more than most would. In my area, 5.7 will NEVER go beyond 3 miles, if it will work then. They(Co-ops) dropped their price almost in half in the towns that they cover for 3 MB DSL to $75/mth, I still offer 1.5MB for $90/mth and have only lost 1 business customer in 2 years. That can show their service level? Although my scenario, may sound good, I am fronting all the money on these Canopy 900 Mhz units. We lease the unit to them included in their monthly cost. We are still in the red after 3 years. When they(Co-ops, or anyone that owns the local loop) can buy a Stinger DSL DSLAM (for instance) that will service 24 customers at about $1500, and DSL modems for less than $50/cpe... What is left for us to compete? On top of that, they OWN the local loop to here. I have a 2XT1 from ATT that 2/3rds of the cost of it is local loop (to the local Co-op)at a total cost of $1379/mth. So, Yes, although most Wireless MFG's build stuff for the last mile, maybe they should look at the REAL last mile in BFE, and see what we have to compete against, if the competition even exist? Just a side notethe local Co-op requires you to take their landline to get DSL, we get %95 of our customers who do not want their POS landline and use their cell phone, but the barriers are still there! Scottie -- Original Message -- From: Butch Evans [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 22:18:48 -0600 (CST) On Mon, 24 Nov 2008, Mike Hammett wrote: Where has the innovation in the last few years gone?/rant How many in this industry bitch and moan over the cost of gear? How many would purchase an AP at under $200 and STILL think that's too high? How many in this industry are willing to purchase something JUST BECAUSE IT IS CHEAPER? Look at how many people in this industry are using DSL as a transport to the Internet. Answer THOSE questions and you'll begin the see the answer to YOUR question. The problem isn't just us. The big boys have been busy trying to drive pricing levels down in an attempt to buy the market. And too many of us have decided that we have to compete on price alone, so we found ways to cut cost by buying cheaper gear (there are 2 WISPs within a 30 minute drive of my house that are selling service using Linksys gear for APs). There is at least 3 WISPs whose service would cover my house that have DSL for their internet connection. I'm not condemming the practice as much as I am attempting to illustrate WHY the innovation is leaving the industry. It is NOT gone. It just doesn't exist in the price range that MOST people are willing to pay (WISPs, that is). -- * Butch Evans * Professional Network Consultation* * http://www.butchevans.com/ * Network Engineering * * http://www.wispa.org/* WISPA Board Member * * http://blog.butchevans.com/ * Wired or Wireless Networks * WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] Wireless High Speed Broadband service from Info-Ed, Inc. as low as $30.00/mth. Check out www.info-ed.com/wireless.html for information. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information
Chuck, Me again. LOL. I may be totally wrong here. But how much in USF have you received to service these areas? I know you may prove me to be a dumba$$, but you, yourself, in response to my past previous posts have said you would never serve these areas with competition. There has to be a driving force to do that, espicially with fiber or massive backhauls. You are a business man, no doubt! How do you do it without losing your a$$? Scottie -- Original Message -- From: Chuck McCown - 3 [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 21:27:10 -0700 Check out Garrison Utah or Burbank Nevada. Doesn't get much more rural than that. Of course I have spent the most part of the last 20 years slowly building a fiber and microwave network to get to all these areas. - Original Message - From: Butch Evans [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 9:24 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information On Mon, 24 Nov 2008, Chuck McCown - 3 wrote: I deliver 100 mbps wholesale to many rural areas for $3-4K/month type of figure. That includes transport. And stastically, you can oversub it, even with streaming content. You are never going to have all 20 streaming movies all at the same time. I am willing to take the chance. That is how we are building out our network. Can you deliver that speed for that price to 802 Stokelan Drive in Malden, MO? If you can, you're the ONLY one who can. -- * Butch Evans * Professional Network Consultation* * http://www.butchevans.com/ * Network Engineering* * http://www.wispa.org/ * WISPA Board Member* * http://blog.butchevans.com/ * Wired or Wireless Networks* WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] Wireless High Speed Broadband service from Info-Ed, Inc. as low as $30.00/mth. Check out www.info-ed.com/wireless.html for information. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays?
OK, ouch, not to get OT here, but have you looked at Samsung? Have you looked at the consumer ratings between the two? Only thing Sony got over them was in the highest end model's, and again this is like buying Alvarion or Canopy to UBQT as far as price is concerned. I may be blind, but I spent 3 hours watching both of them before I decided on my LCD. I could be a weirdo too, lol. Scottie -- Original Message -- From: Josh Luthman [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 23:51:37 -0500 I must be using a different product line then everyone else here - the Trango Access 5800 has left quite a bit to be desired - short range and at most 7mbps throughput. Mikrotik (costing less new then Trango used) easily outperforms in wireless distance, throughput and (my favorite) capability. I have no experience with Canopy but I can imagine from all the great buffs it gets around here and their well known history in wireless I don't doubt it is a good product. Redline is to radios as Sony is to LCDs. Can't be beat in quality... Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 Those who don't understand UNIX are condemned to reinvent it, poorly. --- Henry Spencer On Mon, Nov 24, 2008 at 11:45 PM, Butch Evans [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Mon, 24 Nov 2008, Travis Johnson wrote: I don't think this is entirely true. For us, it becomes a value decision. If there was an AP that would deliver 100Mbps and could support 1000 subscribers, I would be willing to pay $10,000+ for it today. There is a real gap in the products that are available on the market: I don't disagree with your assessment of the current product matrix. I don't even assume that ALL WISPs are cheap. I am not sure I would say that even MOST of them are cheap. But enough of them are that the middle of the road products you want are missing in action. Next = Mikrotik Next = Trango, Canopy, etc Since they have fixed their wireless, I'd put MT in the same class as Trango and Canopy. So, again, why hasn't there been an evolution of products the last 2-3 years? Did everyone stop normal RD to focus on WiMax? I have an opinion (which I stated in rant form) about what happened to the RD. The Canopy line (which is a very nice radio) is a good example. Motorola has delivered a product that just works. It is expensive compared to other products sold to the same marketplace, but it is NOT expensive for what it delivers. Better, yet, they are working to make a new product line that will improve upon what is available today. But their primary market isn't the normal WISP. They service companies that are better funded, which typically means larger WISPs, cable companies and telcos. I really hope I didn't offend anyone with my rant. It wasn't intended to do that. I really just wish our industry as a whole would get out of the hole that we have dug with the cheaper is better mindframe. -- * Butch Evans * Professional Network Consultation* * http://www.butchevans.com/* Network Engineering * * http://www.wispa.org/ * WISPA Board Member * * http://blog.butchevans.com/ * Wired or Wireless Networks * WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] Wireless High Speed Broadband service from Info-Ed, Inc. as low as $30.00/mth. Check out www.info-ed.com/wireless.html for information. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information
Scottie Arnett wrote: Just a side notethe local Co-op requires you to take their landline to get DSL, we get %95 of our customers who do not want their POS landline and use their cell phone, but the barriers are still there! Scottie Facts are, nobody can succesfully corner 100% of the market and be continuously that succesful, unless they are the only choice We find our customers or we should say our customers find us because we offer something the other guy doesn't, an option to not have a telephone line. Cell phone's are a wisps best friend! Now consider the cell phone user, our target market, who else fits into that cut the wire and save money scenerio, the very light television user who doesn't have much income, or someone frugal, who diesn't really watch much tv. If they can get local stations with an aerial and get some movies on demand or free tv shows online, they're ours to be had. So although we can't possibly replace the cable or dish, we can offer a lower cost lower usage alternative. And I bet there are plenty of people that fit that description. Just another group target to add to our base. George WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information
Drew, As I've mentioned before - wireless physics does not allow you to simply and affordably build your network for tomorrow but you do not yet understand this point. No matter what the customer wants (or demands) and no matter how much the WISP wants to build a high-throughput network at a reasonable price, wireless physics (specifically the lack of available spectrum) prevents this. With limited spectrum (which is what we have today in spite of the arguments that we have WiMAX in 3650 and future White Space and opportunities to partner with licensed carriers) WISPs can not build high-throughput, high-reliability, moderate-cost, non-interfering networks that serve a lot of customers without having access to more spectrum. As you point out, watching bandwidth needs so you can know what's coming and plan accordingly is important but you can not make physics (that's what happens in the REAL world) bend to your business and marketing models. The exact opposite happens - marketing plans fail because the technology (the real-world PHYSICAL behavior) does not obey the marketing plan. There's nothing personal here - the PHYSICAL reality calls the shots and it always wins. For example, it doesn't matter that I want (and General Motors marketing plan may call for) a safe, five-passenger car that goes 200 MPH all day and gets 100 MPG up and down an unpaved bicycle trail through the Colorado Rockies along with 100 other cars simultaneously and costs only $3000 to buy. You and I both recognize that in spite of the marketing plan, it just is not going to physically work. No company could build such a car for $3000 and if someone did, it would run off the trail within 30 seconds as it accelerated, especially if there were 100 other similar 200 MPH cars on the same bicycle trail. The bike trail just can't support that kind of traffic even if the car could be built for $3000. Wireless channel needs are the same. To support a lot of traffic simultaneously needs a very wide road - a very wide, unshared channel. Now I'm going to explain why I keep emphasizing this point - because it needs to be understood so that the focus is placed in the proper area to solve the problem - more spectrum. Yes - some wireless vendors aren't delivering innovative products and some WISP owners aren't planning and deploying properly but even when vendors do innovate and WISP owners plan properly, SPECTRUM IS STILL NEEDED or the wireless physics won't work and the wireless throughput still won't be delivered. Again, this isn't personal. I just refuse to allow this discussion to be thrown off-track because the wireless physical foundation is not understood. If we go off-track then the problem won't be properly addressed and it can't be properly solved. I appreciate your good business analysis but I will keep trying to the best of my ability to address the underlying issue so WISPs stand a chance of being successful now and into the future as end-user throughput needs continue to increase. Respectfully, jack Drew Lentz wrote: This is the statement that got me: One argument that I have had people tell me, is that the ISP should know this is coming and should have planned for it. Whether it is through watching the amount of bandwidth used over periods of time as a trend or doing market research to find out what is coming down the line in technology, this statement holds pretty strong. Best practices tell you to build your network for your needs tomorrow, not for today, not for yesterday. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- Jack Unger - President, Ask-Wi.Com, Inc. Serving the Broadband Wireless Industry Since 1993 Cisco Press Author - Deploying License-Free Wireless WANs WISPs - Do you know where your customers are? For wireless coverage mapping see http://www.ask-wi.com/mapping FCC Lic. #PG-12-25133 LinkedIn Profile http://www.linkedin.com/in/jackunger Phone 818-227-4220 Email [EMAIL PROTECTED] WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays?
On Mon, 24 Nov 2008, Chuck McCown - 3 wrote: If you hang out over at [EMAIL PROTECTED] you will find more than a hundred WISPs, many of them very small operations from 100-1000 subscribers that are 100% canopy. And generally speaking they are kicking butt and taking names in their markets. I disagree that Canopy is not marketed to the smaller WISPS. It costs a little Perhaps I stated my point in the wrong way. It would be more accurate to say that Canopy WISPs tend to be larger. This was not a smack against Canopy. It was, actually, a compliment to their ability to do the things they do in a junk spectrum like the 2.4GHz band. As for their focused marketing toward smaller WISPs or not, I can only say that if you took a poll of WISPs of all sizes, you'd find more larger WISPs using it than the smaller guys. So if it's a matter of focus from their marketing department or not, I'd have to say that their take rate is better among those that are not new startups or smaller (how you define those 2 groups may be different than my definition). And, for what it's worth, I AM on the Moto list. ;-) And they are still innovating. If you reread my post, this is exactly what I was complimenting them about. It is funny how the Canopy product line is so polarizing in this industry. There are many things that Canopy does well. There are some things that they do not. Until recently, Motorola was making comments to the FCC that could not be interpreted in any way other than they did not like unlicensed broadband. You can read their older comments (as recently as 2-3 years ago) and reach your own decisions about that. This company policy seems to have changed. Specifically, their comments on TVWS seemed to be very much on the side of unlicensed use. At least some of them did. I didn't read all of their comments. As for the technology, Canopy has been a poor steward of the spectrum. At least in the eyes of many other WISPs. Their system works very well, but used a lot of spectrum (more than 802.11x) and didn't deliver equivalent throughput. This, too, has changed somewhat and seems to be a work in progress. Another reason many folks are not happy with Canopy is the reality that you cannot co-exist with them. While this is not a bad thing for Canopy users, anyone else is stuck with their wider channels and difficult to avoid noise. I don't understand human psychology well enough to even begin to explain why this is such a polarizing topic. Cognitive dissonance seems to come into play. Some of the reasons are mentioned above. I am sure other reasons exist. Personally, I don't agree with all the reasoning, but some of it I do. -- * Butch Evans * Professional Network Consultation* * http://www.butchevans.com/* Network Engineering * * http://www.wispa.org/ * WISPA Board Member * * http://blog.butchevans.com/ * Wired or Wireless Networks * WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information
Sounds like you can't deploy in TVWS soon enough! - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: Scottie Arnett [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2008 12:32 AM To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information Butch, I am not downplaying your response. The problem I am seeing is that my main competition is two rural cooperatives, the cable comp in my area is virtually nill. The cable co's are privately owned. I am not sure how they(cooperatives) are doing it, but they must be getting $$$ to fund their buildouts from somewhere besides the members? I was serving areas they were not 2 years ago, but now they are. And they are servicing them not only with DSL but video? I have to BITCH about the cost of gear, or not compete. I am a mostly Canopy shop at 900 Mhz, our area is 400 to 500 ft hills every mile or so. So, I have had to eat much more than most would. In my area, 5.7 will NEVER go beyond 3 miles, if it will work then. They(Co-ops) dropped their price almost in half in the towns that they cover for 3 MB DSL to $75/mth, I still offer 1.5MB for $90/mth and have only lost 1 business customer in 2 years. That can show their service level? Although my scenario, may sound good, I am fronting all the money on these Canopy 900 Mhz units. We lease the unit to them included in their monthly cost. We are still in the red after 3 years. When they(Co-ops, or anyone that owns the local loop) can buy a Stinger DSL DSLAM (for instance) that will service 24 customers at about $1500, and DSL modems for less than $50/cpe... What is left for us to compete? On top of that, they OWN the local loop to here. I have a 2XT1 from ATT that 2/3rds of the cost of it is local loop (to the local Co-op)at a total cost of $1379/mth. So, Yes, although most Wireless MFG's build stuff for the last mile, maybe they should look at the REAL last mile in BFE, and see what we have to compete against, if the competition even exist? Just a side notethe local Co-op requires you to take their landline to get DSL, we get %95 of our customers who do not want their POS landline and use their cell phone, but the barriers are still there! Scottie -- Original Message -- From: Butch Evans [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 22:18:48 -0600 (CST) On Mon, 24 Nov 2008, Mike Hammett wrote: Where has the innovation in the last few years gone?/rant How many in this industry bitch and moan over the cost of gear? How many would purchase an AP at under $200 and STILL think that's too high? How many in this industry are willing to purchase something JUST BECAUSE IT IS CHEAPER? Look at how many people in this industry are using DSL as a transport to the Internet. Answer THOSE questions and you'll begin the see the answer to YOUR question. The problem isn't just us. The big boys have been busy trying to drive pricing levels down in an attempt to buy the market. And too many of us have decided that we have to compete on price alone, so we found ways to cut cost by buying cheaper gear (there are 2 WISPs within a 30 minute drive of my house that are selling service using Linksys gear for APs). There is at least 3 WISPs whose service would cover my house that have DSL for their internet connection. I'm not condemming the practice as much as I am attempting to illustrate WHY the innovation is leaving the industry. It is NOT gone. It just doesn't exist in the price range that MOST people are willing to pay (WISPs, that is). -- * Butch Evans * Professional Network Consultation* * http://www.butchevans.com/ * Network Engineering* * http://www.wispa.org/ * WISPA Board Member* * http://blog.butchevans.com/ * Wired or Wireless Networks* WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] Wireless High Speed Broadband service from Info-Ed, Inc. as low as $30.00/mth. Check out www.info-ed.com/wireless.html for information. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
