Re: [WSG] Slightly OT... Interview with IE Dev team
Sorry for bringing up this (really) dead thread But I finally got a response from the press team... suffice to say it wasn't what I wanted to hear: Brian Peterson wrote: Hi David, Thank you for the additional information and I appreciate your patience with this request. However, I just heard back from my colleagues, and unfortunately, I'm afraid we are unable to participate in this particular opportunity at this time. I apologize for the inconvenience. Best regards, Brian Ah well... Say next time we all gang up and pose as C|Net? ;) -- -David R ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Slightly OT... Interview with IE Dev team
In response to Kornel and some of the more cynical posters, I would say keep your faith. There will always be a Microsoft present in our world, whether they come with the moniker Microsoft, Sun or Oracle. Fortunately, there're other elements to keep things in balance. Opensource is increasingly becoming a stronger force in keeping Microsoft from changing from a monopoly to a dictatorship. We developers are finally learning that class-action and lawsuits aren't always dirty words. Technical blogs giving the lowdown on IE's shortcomings have been informative to everyone who reads them but so have Larry Rosen's legal work. I admit that if I was thinking of us enlightened developers trying to save the world from MS, I'd be pretty depressed but once I see the efforts of everybody else from all walks of life contributing, I'm heartened. Might seem OT, but I'd say there's a link. E.g.: poor country with no money for MS products - Opensource software - Better compliance with standards (web or otherwise) - more countries like this - critical mass big enough for MS to take notice. I think the points brought up by the rest re: IE shortcomings have been spelt out well enough. Won't add to it but I've been straddling both the Microsoft and anti-MS world long enough and I'm still hopeful until now :) I've used VS.Net and think it's good enough a first try and the fact that it MAY be XHTML 1.1 compliant in the next iteration is pretty darned amazing. (Alright, so I have low expectations). OK, for most part, this mail has been random rambling but the gist of it is that I'm still optimistic about pushing MS towards compliance EVENTUALLY :) -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Kornel Lesinski Sent: Friday, January 07, 2005 2:59 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Slightly OT... Interview with IE Dev team Microsoft has been hyping about web-applications more than you'd imagine, the MSDN Library is full of articles on the subject. 3 of the included posters in the 2003 edition are about web-applications. They don't think about W3C-standards based applications. They are just using a buzzrword to push .NET apps. But I'm convinced Microsoft will make IE7 support standards... why? Because VS 2005 supports the entire XHTML1.1 and CSS2.1 spec They have to support some HTML, XML and CSS anyway, so that's not a problem to add few extra tags. Page you mentioned promotes layout table creator and shows some non-standard code... Microsoft knows that there are web standards. They used W3C to get help on creating technologies they needed, but Microsoft doesn't *gain* anything from supporting other W3C standards. They will support standards when they see cash coming from it, or when someone forces them to do it. How *Microsoft* would benefit from supporting XHTML and CSS2? ... it just doesn't sell. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Slightly OT... Interview with IE Dev team
A while a go, I wrote a bit about the problems with IE [1], and asked myself (and anyone reading) some questions about why Microsoft has not done anything to make IE better in several years. Several interesting theories are mentioned in the comments, but what I think is most likely closest to the truth is in comment #26 [2]. A quote: Microsoft is not improving standards support in IE because they want to discourage the use of the browser as a platform for developing applications that are not operating system dependant. Improving support for CSS, PNG, and other standards such as Xforms, etc. would only make the browser a better application platform. It doesnt matter if Microsoft owns the browser market. If developers switch over to creating standards based web applications Microsoft loses control of their customers. Standards based web applications can be easily run in competing browsers and, yes, even on competing operating systems. So, you may want to forward this theory and ask them how close to the truth it is. [1] http://www.456bereastreet.com/archive/200412/ internet_explorer_is_already_breaking_the_web/ [2] http://www.456bereastreet.com/archive/200412/ internet_explorer_is_already_breaking_the_web/#comment2433 /Roger -- http://www.456bereastreet.com/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Slightly OT... Interview with IE Dev team
A respondant to Roger's blog wrote: Microsoft is not improving standards support in IE because they want to discourage the use of the browser as a platform for developing applications that are not operating system dependant. Improving support for CSS, PNG, and other standards such as Xforms, etc. would only make the browser a better application platform. It doesnt matter if Microsoft owns the browser market. If developers switch over to creating standards based web applications Microsoft loses control of their customers. Standards based web applications can be easily run in competing browsers and, yes, even on competing operating systems. I disagree... Look at Hotmail... that's an example of Microsoft's vision for web-applications 4 years ago... and Hotmail relies on CSS and DOM JavaScript for many of its functions anyway. Microsoft has been hyping about web-applications more than you'd imagine, the MSDN Library is full of articles on the subject. 3 of the included posters in the 2003 edition are about web-applications. But I'm convinced Microsoft will make IE7 support standards... why? Because VS 2005 supports the entire XHTML1.1 and CSS2.1 spec, even if Internet Explorer 6 doesn't. This would be wasting the VS dev team's time if they weren't going to make these features available commonplace in a short while. See: http://www.asp.net/whidbey/whitepapers/VSWhidbeyOverview.aspx?tabindex=0tabid=1 (scroll down to Better Standards Support (near the bottom... and please, no cynical remarks about leaving the least to the last) There was another page with more information, but I've since lost the URI -- -David R ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Slightly OT... Interview with IE Dev team
On 6 jan 2005, at 19.14, David R wrote: But I'm convinced Microsoft will make IE7 support standards... why? Because VS 2005 supports the entire XHTML1.1 and CSS2.1 spec, even if Internet Explorer 6 doesn't. This would be wasting the VS dev team's time if they weren't going to make these features available commonplace in a short while. I hope you're right. I've heard about the next version of Visual Studio being much better, so it does look promising. Still, it would be interesting to hear the IE dev team's response to the quote I sent. I'd understand if they aren't able to respond to that (either because they aren't allowed to, or because they just don't know). /Roger -- http://www.456bereastreet.com/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Slightly OT... Interview with IE Dev team
Microsoft has been hyping about web-applications more than you'd imagine, the MSDN Library is full of articles on the subject. 3 of the included posters in the 2003 edition are about web-applications. They don't think about W3C-standards based applications. They are just using a buzzrword to push .NET apps. But I'm convinced Microsoft will make IE7 support standards... why? Because VS 2005 supports the entire XHTML1.1 and CSS2.1 spec They have to support some HTML, XML and CSS anyway, so that's not a problem to add few extra tags. Page you mentioned promotes layout table creator and shows some non-standard code... Microsoft knows that there are web standards. They used W3C to get help on creating technologies they needed, but Microsoft doesn't *gain* anything from supporting other W3C standards. They will support standards when they see cash coming from it, or when someone forces them to do it. How *Microsoft* would benefit from supporting XHTML and CSS2? ... it just doesn't sell. -- regards, Kornel Lesiski ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Slightly OT... Interview with IE Dev team
Kornel Lesinski wrote: How *Microsoft* would benefit from supporting XHTML and CSS2? To play the counter act here... How does microsoft benefit by offering IE at all? It's free. Updates are free. It costs them bandwidth for downloads and updates. It costs them staff time to code, fix, patch, etc. and they don't get a dime off it. So why not support some standards :p ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Slightly OT... Interview with IE Dev team
I think you have to also understand there are many 'Microsoft's' depending on which department / product you are referring to. The global company name might be the same, but departments are segmented and don't necessarily talk to each other. I've been to a Microsoft presentation where the VB.NET product manager (one of them) was discussing the design decisions they made and the design decisions that the C# group made. Point being even groups as similar as a programming language were not at all on the same page. In fact he discussed battling with the office group about supporting certain .NET features in their API. Each group is responsible for what makes THEM money and is best for THEM, and it doesn't necessarily matter what another group is trying to promote. Hence one 'Microsoft' supported WC3 standards... Another 'Microsoft' doesn't even consider web standards when writing what .NET will put out. When it comes to the next IE7, the process will be the same. That group will make thousands of design decisions from the same basis, time and money. It will probably be very standard compliant because the market is very different right now from what it was then, but it will not be what we may want it to be. Ryan Nichols Graphic Design / Web Development Matrixwebs.com 1.800.711.2829 18330 Sutter Blvd. Morgan Hill, CA 95037 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Kornel Lesinski Sent: Thursday, January 06, 2005 10:59 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Slightly OT... Interview with IE Dev team Microsoft has been hyping about web-applications more than you'd imagine, the MSDN Library is full of articles on the subject. 3 of the included posters in the 2003 edition are about web-applications. They don't think about W3C-standards based applications. They are just using a buzzrword to push .NET apps. But I'm convinced Microsoft will make IE7 support standards... why? Because VS 2005 supports the entire XHTML1.1 and CSS2.1 spec They have to support some HTML, XML and CSS anyway, so that's not a problem to add few extra tags. Page you mentioned promotes layout table creator and shows some non-standard code... Microsoft knows that there are web standards. They used W3C to get help on creating technologies they needed, but Microsoft doesn't *gain* anything from supporting other W3C standards. They will support standards when they see cash coming from it, or when someone forces them to do it. How *Microsoft* would benefit from supporting XHTML and CSS2? ... it just doesn't sell. -- regards, Kornel Lesiski ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Slightly OT... Interview with IE Dev team
Agreed, Ryan, it will be a strategic decision. As much as we may wish to influence the outcome, MS will take the better course for their business. It's a question of a thousand words or none. Influence will be market dominated, as simple as that. They're a brilliant company when it comes to offering perceived solutions to client requirements. Provided the (corporate and private) public remain naive to solutions, MS will dictate resolutions. It's a case of percolation. Standards and accessibility will coalesce upon advent of clear market threat to those outside the envelope. It's balancing an equation with many factors culminating in projected customer expectation. These are simple business economics. But that does not mean to say we cannot shape the future. Education. Teach by fiscal example. Illustrate by factual example: Mike Pepper Accessible Web Developer () www.seowebsitepromotion.com www.gawds.org GAWDS Admin [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.gawds.org -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Ryan Nichols Sent: 06 January 2005 19:59 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: RE: [WSG] Slightly OT... Interview with IE Dev team I think you have to also understand there are many 'Microsoft's' depending on which department / product you are referring to. The global company name might be the same, but departments are segmented and don't necessarily talk to each other. I've been to a Microsoft presentation where the VB.NET product manager (one of them) was discussing the design decisions they made and the design decisions that the C# group made. Point being even groups as similar as a programming language were not at all on the same page. In fact he discussed battling with the office group about supporting certain .NET features in their API. Each group is responsible for what makes THEM money and is best for THEM, and it doesn't necessarily matter what another group is trying to promote. Hence one 'Microsoft' supported WC3 standards... Another 'Microsoft' doesn't even consider web standards when writing what .NET will put out. When it comes to the next IE7, the process will be the same. That group will make thousands of design decisions from the same basis, time and money. It will probably be very standard compliant because the market is very different right now from what it was then, but it will not be what we may want it to be. Ryan Nichols Graphic Design / Web Development Matrixwebs.com 1.800.711.2829 18330 Sutter Blvd. Morgan Hill, CA 95037 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Kornel Lesinski Sent: Thursday, January 06, 2005 10:59 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Slightly OT... Interview with IE Dev team Microsoft has been hyping about web-applications more than you'd imagine, the MSDN Library is full of articles on the subject. 3 of the included posters in the 2003 edition are about web-applications. They don't think about W3C-standards based applications. They are just using a buzzrword to push .NET apps. But I'm convinced Microsoft will make IE7 support standards... why? Because VS 2005 supports the entire XHTML1.1 and CSS2.1 spec They have to support some HTML, XML and CSS anyway, so that's not a problem to add few extra tags. Page you mentioned promotes layout table creator and shows some non-standard code... Microsoft knows that there are web standards. They used W3C to get help on creating technologies they needed, but Microsoft doesn't *gain* anything from supporting other W3C standards. They will support standards when they see cash coming from it, or when someone forces them to do it. How *Microsoft* would benefit from supporting XHTML and CSS2? ... it just doesn't sell. -- regards, Kornel Lesiski ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.6.8 - Release Date: 03/01/05 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.6.8 - Release Date: 03/01/05 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Slightly OT... Interview with IE Dev team
How does microsoft benefit by offering IE at all? It's free. Updates are free. It costs them bandwidth for downloads and updates. It costs them staff time to code, fix, patch, etc. and they don't get a dime off it. Rhetorical I guess but it's a good point. MS benefits from ubiquity. MS Office has become almost universal because everyone has it, so everyone just keeps buying it. They don't want people to break that lack of thought by using some other company's product to browse the web. -- --- http://cheshrkat.blogspot.com/ --- The future has arrived; it's just not --- evenly distributed. - William Gibson ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Slightly OT... Interview with IE Dev team
'Lo guys After being instigated by Channel9 (http://channel9.msdn.com/ShowPost.aspx?PostID=34005 (And I'm W3bbo, btw)) I managed to get through to one of Microsoft's PR interview-arrangers people. I was wondering if any of you have any specific questions, queries, or comments regarding the development of IE, and more specifically, IE7 which may, or may not, come with Longhorn (before... if we're lucky) Regards -- -David R ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Slightly OT... Interview with IE Dev team
I'd like to know what their reaction is to the IE7 project and whether or not they would consider adding the functionality in one of their service pack upgrades. Ted -Original Message- From: David R [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, January 05, 2005 9:44 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: [WSG] Slightly OT... Interview with IE Dev team I was wondering if any of you have any specific questions, queries, or comments regarding the development of IE, and more specifically, IE7 which may, or may not, come with Longhorn (before... if we're lucky) Regards -- -David R ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Slightly OT... Interview with IE Dev team
David R wrote: I was wondering if any of you have any specific questions, queries, or comments regarding the development of IE, and more specifically, IE7 which may, or may not, come with Longhorn (before... if we're lucky) Well, one of the peeves most web developers have about IE is that it does not conform to W3C standards for HTML or CSS. My question would be if they plan on more correctly matching those standards in the future (thus being able to appease standards-friendly developers who just want a website to work no matter what browser is used). I would think anything they may consider doing that would improve their image among the development community would be at the top of their list. (sorry, a little heavy on the sarcasm on that last statement, but still it would be a valid concern if I were in charge of the product) _ Charles Martin http://www.webcudgel.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Slightly OT... Interview with IE Dev team
Proper PNG support ? Tom Livingston Senior Multimedia Artist Visit the award-winning mlinc.com site On Jan 5, 2005, at 12:44 PM, David R wrote: 'Lo guys After being instigated by Channel9 (http://channel9.msdn.com/ShowPost.aspx?PostID=34005 (And I'm W3bbo, btw)) I managed to get through to one of Microsoft's PR interview-arrangers people. I was wondering if any of you have any specific questions, queries, or comments regarding the development of IE, and more specifically, IE7 which may, or may not, come with Longhorn (before... if we're lucky) Regards -- -David R ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Slightly OT... Interview with IE Dev team
I was wondering if any of you have any specific questions, queries, or comments regarding the development of IE, and more specifically, IE7 which may, or may not, come with Longhorn (before... if we're lucky) Does Microsoft feel resposibility for the web? Do they realize how much web traffic is wasted, because IE holds back web standards? (according to stopdesign.net it's 950gb of junk markup *per day*, on microsoft.com alone) What about fixing long-standing rendering bugs? On http://positioniseverything.net/explorer.html you can find some nasty ones (severly broken float model is my 'favorite') On IE blog I've read excuses that such things need to stay for sake of compatibility. Indeed funny it'd be when fixed IE would cease to be IE-compatible, but how long Microsoft can keep it's pet bugs? Why 8 years is not enough to implement PNG transparency? (that's a popular question :) -- regards, Kornel Lesiski ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Slightly OT... Interview with IE Dev team
LMFAO! hahahahahahahahaha how about making it like firefox? and how about seperating it from the os for all the dumb ppl who still use it and pass on all the viruses like the previous user suggested, how about actually FOLLING the w3c and not going against it and trying to make everyone follow ie instead of the w3c -- Original Message -- From: Kornel Lesinski [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Date: Wed, 05 Jan 2005 19:28:24 - I was wondering if any of you have any specific questions, queries, or comments regarding the development of IE, and more specifically, IE7 which may, or may not, come with Longhorn (before... if we're lucky) Does Microsoft feel resposibility for the web? Do they realize how much web traffic is wasted, because IE holds back web standards? (according to stopdesign.net it's 950gb of junk markup *per day*, on microsoft.com alone) What about fixing long-standing rendering bugs? On http://positioniseverything.net/explorer.html you can find some nasty ones (severly broken float model is my 'favorite') On IE blog I've read excuses that such things need to stay for sake of compatibility. Indeed funny it'd be when fixed IE would cease to be IE-compatible, but how long Microsoft can keep it's pet bugs? Why 8 years is not enough to implement PNG transparency? (that's a popular question :) -- regards, Kornel Lesiñski ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Slightly OT... Interview with IE Dev team
After being instigated by Channel9 (http://channel9.msdn.com/ShowPost.aspx?PostID=34005 (And I'm W3bbo, btw)) I managed to get through to one of Microsoft's PR interview-arrangers people. I was wondering if any of you have any specific questions, queries, or comments regarding the development of IE, and more specifically, IE7 which may, or may not, come with Longhorn (before... if we're lucky) Naturally they want to develop a better product, and to better render many sites out there that already exist they will need to become more standards compliant. If I accept that as a given, then I have one major concern: Will Microsoft put significant effort into *not* fixing the parsing bugs that CSS authors have been using to fix the current IE CSS models, unless and until they fix those models as well? In short, will they test their new browser to make sure sites that are hacked for IE5-6 don't break in IE7 -- because either no fixes are needed or the same fixes work? And if they cannot do this 100%, will they offer and publish solutions to our real backwards-compatibility issues at least 3 months before the release of IE7? This requires that Microsoft recognize the common practices used to fix rendering in their previous browsers, and work with those practices. -- Ben Curtis WebSciences International http://www.websciences.org/ v: (310) 478-6648 f: (310) 235-2067 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Slightly OT... Interview with IE Dev team
Naturally they want to develop a better product, Oh really? That's a laugh. All Microsoft is interested in is sticking a very large hose directly into your wallet to suck as much cash out as possible. This is the 8000-pound gorilla who believes in web standards as long as those standards are theirs. In fact, that's the corporate philosophy across the board and now they're heading into your living room! Can't wait to see what havoc they reek there. As the other posts have said, they've had ample opportunity and time to get things right, where are we now? Hacks and java scripts... Wayne -- Wayne Godfrey President, Creative Director Outgate Media, Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Slightly OT... Interview with IE Dev team
Naturally they want to develop a better product, Oh really? That's a laugh. All Microsoft is interested in is sticking a very large hose directly into your wallet to suck as much cash out as possible. This is the 8000-pound gorilla who believes in web standards as long as those standards are theirs. In fact, that's the corporate philosophy across the board and now they're heading into your living room! Can't wait to see what havoc they reek there. As the other posts have said, they've had ample opportunity and time to get things right, where are we now? Hacks and java scripts... Well, I did not say that naturally they will adopt W3C standards, but that naturally they want to develop a better product. Yes, better as defined by them. However, better as they define it is capable of maintaining greater than 70% market penetration, and they are losing market penetration because: 1. IE's ActiveX and Javascript holes allow for spyware and other malware, and people know it, and people are more savvy about it now. 2. The hearts and minds of developers are lost, and (over time) with that goes all the benefits of declaring the de-facto standard: if developers develop to other browsers first, and then adapt it to work in IE (becoming more of the case each month), then sites will work better in other browsers. To win back the hearts and minds of developers, they need to adopt standards. They will also extend standards in a way that breaks future compatibility with standards so that they can get stuff developed now that is wiz-bang, and tomorrow developers and users will have to choose again whether those IE extensions are good or bad. So, I think it's a given that the answer to the question Will you adhere to all recommended W3C standards for XHTML and CSS? will be Yes. If you know the answer to the question, there is no point in asking except to vent your frustration. I wanted to ask a question I did not know the answer to: Will you make sure not to break existing sites that are coded in a messed up way, but a way that you are responsible for requiring? I don't know the answer. If they say no, then I will change my coding habits to easily banish IE7 from my CSS hacks and add IE7-specific hacks without changing every page on my site. If they say yes, then I will continue to code as if IE7 will render it like Firefox, or will recognize the hacks for IE6. And maybe they never thought of that and they answer yes, in which case the question just saved you a bunch of work, no? -- Ben Curtis WebSciences International http://www.websciences.org/ v: (310) 478-6648 f: (310) 235-2067 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Slightly OT... Interview with IE Dev team
On Wed, 05 Jan 2005 15:22:45 -0500, Wayne Godfrey [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Oh really? That's a laugh. All Microsoft is interested in is sticking a very large hose directly into your wallet to suck as much cash out as possible. This is the 8000-pound gorilla who believes in web standards as long as those standards are theirs. In fact, that's the corporate philosophy across the board and now they're heading into your living room! Can't wait to see what havoc they reek there. Quoth Neal Stephenson: Now that the Third Rail has been firmly grasped, it is worth reviewing some basic facts here: like any other publicly traded, for-profit corporation, Microsoft has, in effect, borrowed a bunch of money from some people (its stockholders) in order to be in the bit business. As an officer of that corporation, Bill Gates has one responsibility only, which is to maximize return on investment. He has done this incredibly well. Any actions taken in the world by Microsoft-any software released by them, for example--are basically epiphenomena, which can't be interpreted or understood except insofar as they reflect Bill Gates's execution of his one and only responsibility.[1] /me not defending them, just making sure that their actions are viewed in the proper context. [1] See http://cryptonomicon.com/beginning.html -- May the forces of evil become confused on the way to your house. -- George Carlin ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Slightly OT... Interview with IE Dev team
sure but maybe they should add some Ethical responsibilty to that as well instead of trying to make this planet microsoft they can start by being honest and remove the whole os, wb interaction and maybe we could at least start to get a handle on the virus situation meanwhile billy is spend your money on his own personal spam products and several teams of employees whos only jobs is to sort his email from spam. do u think he knows he can have a diff email addy? even his own company gives them away?? then maybe they will get the clue that the w3c is a GOOD thing indeed, for the ppl not ms's pocket books -- Original Message -- From: James Bennett [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 16:35:28 -0500 On Wed, 05 Jan 2005 15:22:45 -0500, Wayne Godfrey [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Oh really? That's a laugh. All Microsoft is interested in is sticking a very large hose directly into your wallet to suck as much cash out as possible. This is the 8000-pound gorilla who believes in web standards as long as those standards are theirs. In fact, that's the corporate philosophy across the board and now they're heading into your living room! Can't wait to see what havoc they reek there. Quoth Neal Stephenson: Now that the Third Rail has been firmly grasped, it is worth reviewing some basic facts here: like any other publicly traded, for-profit corporation, Microsoft has, in effect, borrowed a bunch of money from some people (its stockholders) in order to be in the bit business. As an officer of that corporation, Bill Gates has one responsibility only, which is to maximize return on investment. He has done this incredibly well. Any actions taken in the world by Microsoft-any software released by them, for example--are basically epiphenomena, which can't be interpreted or understood except insofar as they reflect Bill Gates's execution of his one and only responsibility.[1] /me not defending them, just making sure that their actions are viewed in the proper context. [1] See http://cryptonomicon.com/beginning.html -- May the forces of evil become confused on the way to your house. -- George Carlin ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Slightly OT... Interview with IE Dev team
responsibility only, which is to maximize return on investment. He has done this incredibly well. I'm deeply worried that Microsoft is just going to make tabbed browsing add-on, to put some fire out, and keep it's 12-year old engine. From their point of view, following web standards is: * expensive - to catch up they need lots of development and testing, * risky - breaks delicate bug-based-compatibility, and may introduce new bugs and security problems. Keeping old engine: * is easy, costs nothing, * keeps IE working with all websites, and keeps *competition* away. They gain nothing from supporting CSS2/3, PNG or even XHTML mime type. Web developers *have to* cope with whatever IE supports. New! MS Tabs(tm) and another security service pack will keep users happy... -- regards, Kornel Lesiski ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Slightly OT... Interview with IE Dev team
Actually I could not care less if there is another IE as I am more than happy with Firefox. In fact when I re-installed XP I chose not to include IE (it is still there for Windows Update etc but harder to choose as a default browser). -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David R Sent: Thursday, 6 January 2005 4:44 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: [WSG] Slightly OT... Interview with IE Dev team 'Lo guys After being instigated by Channel9 (http://channel9.msdn.com/ShowPost.aspx?PostID=34005 (And I'm W3bbo, btw)) I managed to get through to one of Microsoft's PR interview-arrangers people. I was wondering if any of you have any specific questions, queries, or comments regarding the development of IE, and more specifically, IE7 which may, or may not, come with Longhorn (before... if we're lucky) Regards -- -David R ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Slightly OT... Interview with IE Dev team
They should just ship firefox with longthorn and forget about IE7 On Thu, 6 Jan 2005 04:44 am, David R wrote: 'Lo guys After being instigated by Channel9 (http://channel9.msdn.com/ShowPost.aspx?PostID=34005 (And I'm W3bbo, btw)) I managed to get through to one of Microsoft's PR interview-arrangers people. I was wondering if any of you have any specific questions, queries, or comments regarding the development of IE, and more specifically, IE7 which may, or may not, come with Longhorn (before... if we're lucky) Regards -- -David R ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Slightly OT... Interview with IE Dev team
On Thu, 6 Jan 2005 11:17:48 +1100, Mariusz Stankiewicz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: They should just ship firefox with longthorn and forget about IE7 No, thats crazy talk! ...but they could buy out Opera Software... ;) -- regards, Kornel Lesiski ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Slightly OT... Interview with IE Dev team
ummm didnt I read somewhere that the next IE browser will be with the next OS (longhorn) in 2006? anyone confirm that? cheers barry.b
Re: [WSG] Slightly OT... Interview with IE Dev team
heretic wrote: I was wondering if any of you have any specific questions, queries, or comments regarding the development of IE, and more specifically, IE7 which may, or may not, come with Longhorn (before... if we're lucky) I would say that as far as I am concerned the ball is in their court. What I mean by that is that on my site I basically, and very soon will even more so, highly recommend Firefox and state that ie is out of date, and have links to Firefox and screenshots. They are going to lose, the choice is theirs because as we all know thousands are switching and increasingly so as time goes on. That is their fault entirely. As much as I don't wish to, am getting close to the point where I don't care what they do, and am not alone. Microsoftjoin the party or get lost. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Slightly OT... Interview with IE Dev team
On Thu, 6 Jan 2005 16:07:32 +1000, Barry Beattie [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: didn't I read somewhere that the next IE browser will be with the next OS (longhorn) in 2006? anyone confirm that? cheers barry.b G'day Barry ;D That's the official word; though your 2006 delivery date is a bit optimistic, don't you think? Other 'offical words' include that the next IE will ONLY be for Longhorn and will be integrated with the OS on a larger scale, not a lesser scale. Whether or not you buy that last line is your own choice. My greatest concern is regarding the prioritisation of CSS bugs. Basically, if they fix the * html selector bug but not ALL their insane rendering issues (99% caused by 'hasLayout'), my early work will fall to bits. For those still using selector bugs to fix other bugs...REPENT NOW! Conditional comments filtered via version number are about the only way to ensure things won't turn sour with the release of IE7. Actually, here's a question -- Will IE7's rendering engine (if it's a ground-on-up rebuild) contain the rediculous, proprietry, makes-me-wanna-hurt-things 'hasLayout'** property? I'd be very interested to hear what their plans are in that sense. **hasLayout is the mystical beast responsible for the majority of IE bugs. If something can be fixed by adding the Holly hack, position:relative; or similar, it's a 'hasLayout' bug. These include missing backgrounds, dodgy floats and loats of other nasties. If you want to get in touch with IE team members without jumping through hoops, reference the IEBlog on a weblog and Trackback -- it worked for me :) Andrew. http://leftjustified.net/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
