Re: [Zen] Nature of Illusion
Mike, I have always believed 'dharma' as used in this 3rd part of the Bodhisattva Vow refers to 'the teachings of Buddha'. I agree that teachings are thoughts, so I do agree the use of the term 'dharma' in this vow refers to thoughts. The 1st part of that vow refers to 'sentient beings'. The 2nd part of that vow refers to 'desires'. The 4th and last part of that vow refers to 'the Buddha way'. I consider all of these thoughts, and I consider all of them illusions. We can 'save all sentient beings', 'put an end to all desires', 'master all the dharmas (teachings) and 'attain/accomplish the Buddha Way' all at one and the same time by doing just one thing - dissolving the attachments we have to these illusions by ceasing the arising of dualism which is the function of our human intellect. This doesn't mean we never have illusions or never use our intellect, or never form attachments again. We do. But now we realize 'sentient beings', 'desires', 'dharmas' and the 'Buddha Way' are illusory and can better resist forming attachments to them. We grow stronger at keeping this balance through continued practice - and that for me means zazen. That's the way this all fits together for me. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, uerusuboyo@... wrote: Edgar, Bill!,br/br/I don't have much invested in this topic, but just to clarify a few things I'd like your feedback.br/When we make our vows at every sit, one of those vows is The dharmas are numberless, I vow to master them. Applying that to this topic, for me, means that a thought (a dharma) is real even if the object of that thought isn't. For example, if I said Edgar is a 20 year old member of a famous boy band, then the thought is real (a dharma) *even though* it is a delusional thought. br/br/Mikebr/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Nature of Illusion
Bill!,br/br/I agree with most of what you say, but I think you give a limited account of what 'dharma' means. The Dharma is, of course, the main body of Buddha's teaching as well as universal law. But 'dharmas' also have another meaning related to how reality manifests (in this case - thoughts). There are many dharma gates we have to master and seeing thoughts as illusory is only part of the picture. We don't avoid attachment to thoughts just because they are illusory, but because of the craving/aversion they create. Desiring a beautiful woman that you've painted on a piece of paper doesn't make the desire unreal even though the woman is an illusion.br/br/Mikebr/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
Re: [Zen] Nature of Illusion
Bill!,br/br/I also meant to add that saying everything is illusory is just as problematic as Edgar's (and JMJM) saying everything is Zen.br/br/Mikebr/br/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
Re: [Zen] Nature of Illusion
bill... good explanation..i get it...merle Mike, I have always believed 'dharma' as used in this 3rd part of the Bodhisattva Vow refers to 'the teachings of Buddha'. I agree that teachings are thoughts, so I do agree the use of the term 'dharma' in this vow refers to thoughts. The 1st part of that vow refers to 'sentient beings'. The 2nd part of that vow refers to 'desires'. The 4th and last part of that vow refers to 'the Buddha way'. I consider all of these thoughts, and I consider all of them illusions. We can 'save all sentient beings', 'put an end to all desires', 'master all the dharmas (teachings) and 'attain/accomplish the Buddha Way' all at one and the same time by doing just one thing - dissolving the attachments we have to these illusions by ceasing the arising of dualism which is the function of our human intellect. This doesn't mean we never have illusions or never use our intellect, or never form attachments again. We do. But now we realize 'sentient beings', 'desires', 'dharmas' and the 'Buddha Way' are illusory and can better resist forming attachments to them. We grow stronger at keeping this balance through continued practice - and that for me means zazen. That's the way this all fits together for me. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, uerusuboyo@... wrote: Edgar, Bill!,br/br/I don't have much invested in this topic, but just to clarify a few things I'd like your feedback.br/When we make our vows at every sit, one of those vows is The dharmas are numberless, I vow to master them. Applying that to this topic, for me, means that a thought (a dharma) is real even if the object of that thought isn't. For example, if I said Edgar is a 20 year old member of a famous boy band, then the thought is real (a dharma) *even though* it is a delusional thought. br/br/Mikebr/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
Re: [Zen] Nature of Illusion
Mike, 'Dharma' does have many meanings. I looked it up at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dharma and one of the meaning in Buddhist Phenomenology is what you've said, however the most common meaning in Buddhism is Buddha's teachings. Desire is attachment. The bottom line is you are attached to some thought - some illusion. It doesn't matter if that thought is a thought of a 'real' woman, a drawing or an outright fantasy. The OBJECT of the attachment is not really the problem. It the SUBJECT of the attachment which is the problem and that is your illusory self. If you dissolve the illusion of self, the SUBJECT of the dualistic illusion, there is no longer any OBJECT nor relationship between them. Now all I've said is an attempt at a logical explanation of what I believe happens based on logical models (forms) and terms we both share. But as has been said over and over on this forum explanations do not really have a lot of authority in zen practice. The only real authority or source you can depend on is experience. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, uerusuboyo@... wrote: Bill!,br/br/I agree with most of what you say, but I think you give a limited account of what 'dharma' means. The Dharma is, of course, the main body of Buddha's teaching as well as universal law. But 'dharmas' also have another meaning related to how reality manifests (in this case - thoughts). There are many dharma gates we have to master and seeing thoughts as illusory is only part of the picture. We don't avoid attachment to thoughts just because they are illusory, but because of the craving/aversion they create. Desiring a beautiful woman that you've painted on a piece of paper doesn't make the desire unreal even though the woman is an illusion.br/br/Mikebr/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Nature of Illusion
Mike, I never have said everything is illusory. Experience (Buddha Nature) is not illusory. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, uerusuboyo@... wrote: Bill!,br/br/I also meant to add that saying everything is illusory is just as problematic as Edgar's (and JMJM) saying everything is Zen.br/br/Mikebr/br/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Nature of Illusion
Bill!,br/br/Just looked up a definition of 'dharma', too. Buddhism.about.combr/br/br/Definition:br/Dharma in both Hinduism and Buddhism refers to the principle or law that orders the universe. In Buddhism, the word in particular points to the law of karma and rebirth.br/br/Because this law was recognized and formulated by the historical Buddha, dharma is most commonly used in Buddhism to mean the teachings of the Buddha.br/br/Dharma is also used in Mahayana Buddhism to mean manifestation of reality. This sense can be found in the Heart Sutra, which refers to the voidness or emptiness (shunyata) of all dharmas.br/br/In Theravada Buddhism, dharma is a term for the factors of existence, or the transitory conditions that cause phenomena to come into being.br/br/Dharma is also sometimes used to refer to ethical rules and to mental objects or thoughts.br/br/br/ br/br/So now I think anyone following this thread can see that a thought can be a manifestation of reality I.e, a dharma. Note the word 'reality'!br/br/You're right about the OBJECT not being the problem and I never said it was (which is why I'm not overly concerned about this topic). The answer to the problem is an experiential understanding that the OBJECT is empty of inherent existence and so is impermanent - and grasping at it will lead to suffering. Likewise, the self is an illusion, but the belief it is substantial is a real belief. So the thought of desiring something is still real even though empty (Buddha Nature itself is empty. In fact, emptiness itself is empty!). br/br/For example, if I see a coil of rope in the night and believe it to be a snake, the thought of fear is still real even though the snake itself was an illusion. Saying the thought is an illusion won't do me much good the next time I see a snake and it *is* real! Unless of course you argue that both the snake and the fear are illusory, in which case you probably wont be around very long to continue this illusory conversation! br/br/Mikebr/br/br/br/br/br/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
Re: [Zen] Nature of Illusion
Mike, I'm getting very, very weary of all this. I could go through your quote below phrase by phrase, line by line to tell you why I think it is either wrong or why you are misinterpreting it, but what good would that do? If you and Edgar won't or can't recognize the difference between thought and experience, between illusion and Buddha Nature, between theology and zen practice then there is just really nothing more I can say. If you can recognize the difference but just don't want to use the word illusion then come up with a different word, but a word that discriminates thoughts from experience. YOU (your illusory self) creates thoughts. YOU terminate them. Do you really think YOU (illusory or not) can actually create and terminate reality? No! YOU can create and terminate thoughts because they are illusions. You (your illusory self) can only PERCEIVE (form thoughts about) reality. Buddha Nature is the experience of reality. And one more thing...the word 'dharma' was brought to you by the same folks that also brought to you the word 'maya'. Do you think they would have two very specific words for what you are claiming is the same thing? ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, uerusuboyo@... wrote: Bill!,br/br/Just looked up a definition of 'dharma', too. Buddhism.about.combr/br/br/Definition:br/Dharma in both Hinduism and Buddhism refers to the principle or law that orders the universe. In Buddhism, the word in particular points to the law of karma and rebirth.br/br/Because this law was recognized and formulated by the historical Buddha, dharma is most commonly used in Buddhism to mean the teachings of the Buddha.br/br/Dharma is also used in Mahayana Buddhism to mean manifestation of reality. This sense can be found in the Heart Sutra, which refers to the voidness or emptiness (shunyata) of all dharmas.br/br/In Theravada Buddhism, dharma is a term for the factors of existence, or the transitory conditions that cause phenomena to come into being.br/br/Dharma is also sometimes used to refer to ethical rules and to mental objects or thoughts.br/br/br/ br/br/So now I think anyone following this thread can see that a thought can be a manifestation of reality I.e, a dharma. Note the word 'reality'!br/br/You're right about the OBJECT not being the problem and I never said it was (which is why I'm not overly concerned about this topic). The answer to the problem is an experiential understanding that the OBJECT is empty of inherent existence and so is impermanent - and grasping at it will lead to suffering. Likewise, the self is an illusion, but the belief it is substantial is a real belief. So the thought of desiring something is still real even though empty (Buddha Nature itself is empty. In fact, emptiness itself is empty!). br/br/For example, if I see a coil of rope in the night and believe it to be a snake, the thought of fear is still real even though the snake itself was an illusion. Saying the thought is an illusion won't do me much good the next time I see a snake and it *is* real! Unless of course you argue that both the snake and the fear are illusory, in which case you probably wont be around very long to continue this illusory conversation! br/br/Mikebr/br/br/br/br/br/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Nature of Illusion
Mike, Correct. As I've said over and over, illusion recognized as illusion is reality, but illusion taken for reality is illusion. The thought in your head of Edgar being a member of a boy band is a perfect example. It's a real thought but the thought is illusory. Now extend that to the entire world you think you live in and YOU'VE GOT IT! Because the entire world you think you live in is a construct of your mind. It exists so it is real, but it is an illusion. Edgar On May 29, 2013, at 12:49 AM, uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: Edgar, Bill!, I don't have much invested in this topic, but just to clarify a few things I'd like your feedback. When we make our vows at every sit, one of those vows is The dharmas are numberless, I vow to master them. Applying that to this topic, for me, means that a thought (a dharma) is real even if the object of that thought isn't. For example, if I said Edgar is a 20 year old member of a famous boy band, then the thought is real (a dharma) *even though* it is a delusional thought. Mike Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad From: Edgar Owen edgaro...@att.net; To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com; Subject: [Zen] Nature of Illusion Sent: Wed, May 29, 2013 12:53:51 AM Bill, Philosophy and illusion [edit] Just like many other words often used in a different sense in spirituality the word illusion is used to denote different aspects in Hindu Philosophy (Maya). Many Monist philosophies clearly demarcate illusion from truth and falsehood. As per Hindu advaita philosophy, Illusion is something which is not true and not false. Whereas in general usage it is common to assume that illusion is false, Hindu philosophy makes a distinction between Maya (illusion) and falsehood. In terms of this philosophy maya is true in itself but it is not true in comparison with the truth. As per this philosophy, illusion is not the opposite of truth or reality. Based on these assumptions Vedas declare that the world as humans normally see is illusion (Maya). It does not mean the world is not real. The world is only so much real as the image of a person in a mirror. The world is not real/true when compared to the reality. But the world is also not false. Falsehood is something which does not exist. if we apply this philosophy to the above example, the illusion is not actually illusion but is false. This is because in general usage people tend to consider lllusion to be the same as falsehood. As per adishankar's a guru of monist teachings the world we think is not true but is an illusion (not true not false). The truth of the world is something which can only be experienced by removing the identity (ego). Edgar
Re: [Zen] Nature of Illusion
Edgar and Mike, So...Edgar has his thoughts. Mike has his thoughts. Merle has her thoughts. I have my thoughts. We all make them and we all terminate them. And they are all DIFFERENT! So are you really telling me that you think there is a different set of reality for each person on this planet that they make and terminate all on their own? That's about as dualistic as you can get. Are you telling me you believe reality is dualistic? What you are describing is certainly not what I'd call reality. I'd could call that individual perspectives, or perceptions - anything but reality. And as you know I call them all illusions. If you do decide to continue to call thoughts reality, please call them what you are really describing - realities - individual, customized, temporary realities. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@... wrote: Mike, Correct. As I've said over and over, illusion recognized as illusion is reality, but illusion taken for reality is illusion. The thought in your head of Edgar being a member of a boy band is a perfect example. It's a real thought but the thought is illusory. Now extend that to the entire world you think you live in and YOU'VE GOT IT! Because the entire world you think you live in is a construct of your mind. It exists so it is real, but it is an illusion. Edgar On May 29, 2013, at 12:49 AM, uerusuboyo@... wrote: Edgar, Bill!, I don't have much invested in this topic, but just to clarify a few things I'd like your feedback. When we make our vows at every sit, one of those vows is The dharmas are numberless, I vow to master them. Applying that to this topic, for me, means that a thought (a dharma) is real even if the object of that thought isn't. For example, if I said Edgar is a 20 year old member of a famous boy band, then the thought is real (a dharma) *even though* it is a delusional thought. Mike Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad From: Edgar Owen edgarowen@...; To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com; Subject: [Zen] Nature of Illusion Sent: Wed, May 29, 2013 12:53:51 AM Bill, Philosophy and illusion [edit] Just like many other words often used in a different sense in spirituality the word illusion is used to denote different aspects in Hindu Philosophy (Maya). Many Monist philosophies clearly demarcate illusion from truth and falsehood. As per Hindu advaita philosophy, Illusion is something which is not true and not false. Whereas in general usage it is common to assume that illusion is false, Hindu philosophy makes a distinction between Maya (illusion) and falsehood. In terms of this philosophy maya is true in itself but it is not true in comparison with the truth. As per this philosophy, illusion is not the opposite of truth or reality. Based on these assumptions Vedas declare that the world as humans normally see is illusion (Maya). It does not mean the world is not real. The world is only so much real as the image of a person in a mirror. The world is not real/true when compared to the reality. But the world is also not false. Falsehood is something which does not exist. if we apply this philosophy to the above example, the illusion is not actually illusion but is false. This is because in general usage people tend to consider lllusion to be the same as falsehood. As per adishankar's a guru of monist teachings the world we think is not true but is an illusion (not true not false). The truth of the world is something which can only be experienced by removing the identity (ego). Edgar Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Nature of Illusion
Bill!,br/br/I have no stake in this topic at all because I don't see the problem with thoughts as being whether they are illusory or not, but rather that the following of them leads to craving/aversion and thus suffering. The 20 year old Edgar is a falsehood and he clearly isn't real, but the the thought itself - however delusional and empty - still exists. It arises from previous conditions and is itself a condition for further effects. Tests in neuroscience show that thoughts need energy and create vibrations. The body can suffer major pathology from a thought. In Australia Aborigines die from having a bone pointed at them and being cursed. The demon might be a falsehood and not exist, but the thought does and has dire consequences.br/br/I found this on wiki regarding 'maya':br/br/Nāgārjuna, of the Mahāyāna Mādhyamika (i.e., Middle Way) school, discusses nirmita, or illusion closely related to māyā. In this example, the illusion is a self-awareness that is, like the magical illusion, mistaken. For Nagarjuna, the self is not the organizing command center of experience, as we might think. Actually, it is just one element combined with other factors and strung together in a sequence of causally connected moments in time. [[[As such, the self is not substantially real, but neither can it be shown to be unreal]]]. The continuum of moments, which we mistakenly understand to be a solid, unchanging self, still performs actions and undergoes their results. As a magician creates a magical illusion by the force of magic, and the illusion produces another illusion, in the same way the agent is a magical illusion and the action done is the illusion created by another illusion.[16] What we experience may be an illusion, but we are living inside the illusion and bear the fruits of our actions there. We undergo the experiences of the illusion. What we do affects what we experience, so it matters.[17] In this example, Nagarjuna uses the magician's illusion to show that the self is not as real as it thinks, yet, to the extent it is inside the illusion, real enough to warrant respecting the ways of the world.br/br/ br/The Theravada interpretation of maya works better for me. Instead of meaning 'illusion' they use the word vipallasa which translates as 'distortion'. This works better for me because it retains the meaning of 'things not being as they appear' without relegating them to non-existence.br/br/Hope that helps!br/br/Mikebr/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
Re: [Zen] Nature of Illusion
Edgar,br/br/To be honest, whether you are right or wrong makes no difference to my practice. Many people realise that the world 'out there' is just a process of the brain created in the head. BUT that doesn't necessarily lead them to living an awakened life (just as a scientist specialising quantum mechanics doesn't become enlightened from the knowledge that solid objects aren't really solid and are impermanent). For me, it's more a question of how we recognise that thoughts lead to actions that are either wholesome or unwholesome. br/br/Mikebr/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
Re: [Zen] Nature of Illusion
Bill!,br/br/All dualities, contradictions and paradoxes are reconciled in buddhahood, so I don't see a problem. Doesn't Mahayana say that Samsara is no different to Nirvana?br/br/Mikebr/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
Re: [Zen] Nature of Illusion
Mike, It DOES make a difference. You just haven't realized that it does.. Edgar On May 29, 2013, at 9:22 AM, uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: Edgar, To be honest, whether you are right or wrong makes no difference to my practice. Many people realise that the world 'out there' is just a process of the brain created in the head. BUT that doesn't necessarily lead them to living an awakened life (just as a scientist specialising quantum mechanics doesn't become enlightened from the knowledge that solid objects aren't really solid and are impermanent). For me, it's more a question of how we recognise that thoughts lead to actions that are either wholesome or unwholesome. Mike Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad From: Edgar Owen edgaro...@att.net; To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com; Subject: Re: [Zen] Nature of Illusion Sent: Wed, May 29, 2013 11:17:37 AM Mike, Correct. As I've said over and over, illusion recognized as illusion is reality, but illusion taken for reality is illusion. The thought in your head of Edgar being a member of a boy band is a perfect example. It's a real thought but the thought is illusory. Now extend that to the entire world you think you live in and YOU'VE GOT IT! Because the entire world you think you live in is a construct of your mind. It exists so it is real, but it is an illusion. Edgar On May 29, 2013, at 12:49 AM, uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: Edgar, Bill!, I don't have much invested in this topic, but just to clarify a few things I'd like your feedback. When we make our vows at every sit, one of those vows is The dharmas are numberless, I vow to master them. Applying that to this topic, for me, means that a thought (a dharma) is real even if the object of that thought isn't. For example, if I said Edgar is a 20 year old member of a famous boy band, then the thought is real (a dharma) *even though* it is a delusional thought. Mike Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad From: Edgar Owen edgaro...@att.net; To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com; Subject: [Zen] Nature of Illusion Sent: Wed, May 29, 2013 12:53:51 AM Bill, Philosophy and illusion [edit] Just like many other words often used in a different sense in spirituality the word illusion is used to denote different aspects in Hindu Philosophy (Maya). Many Monist philosophies clearly demarcate illusion from truth and falsehood. As per Hindu advaita philosophy, Illusion is something which is not true and not false. Whereas in general usage it is common to assume that illusion is false, Hindu philosophy makes a distinction between Maya (illusion) and falsehood. In terms of this philosophy maya is true in itself but it is not true in comparison with the truth. As per this philosophy, illusion is not the opposite of truth or reality. Based on these assumptions Vedas declare that the world as humans normally see is illusion (Maya). It does not mean the world is not real. The world is only so much real as the image of a person in a mirror. The world is not real/true when compared to the reality. But the world is also not false. Falsehood is something which does not exist. if we apply this philosophy to the above example, the illusion is not actually illusion but is false. This is because in general usage people tend to consider lllusion to be the same as falsehood. As per adishankar's a guru of monist teachings the world we think is not true but is an illusion (not true not false). The truth of the world is something which can only be experienced by removing the identity (ego). Edgar
Re: [Zen] Nature of Illusion
br/Edgar,br/br/It makes no difference at all. Whether a thought is real or non-real, what is important is not attaching to that thought and the sensation of craving/aversion it raises.br/br/Mikebr/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
Re: [Zen] Nature of Illusion
There is also a translation or interpretation of Dharma Gate as being a particular type of path. One might say I have entered the way by the dharma gate of pain, and now seek to enter the dharma gate of formal lay training. Or one travels through the dharma gate of rearing small children. The dharma gate of the tea ceremony, or of typing highly available network servers. The dharma gate of procrastination. Each moment the opportunity is renewed and we have a gate to enter or to avoid. Thanks, --Chris 301-270-6524 On May 29, 2013 1:00 AM, Bill! billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote: Mike, 'Dharma' does have many meanings. I looked it up at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dharma and one of the meaning in Buddhist Phenomenology is what you've said, however the most common meaning in Buddhism is Buddha's teachings. Desire is attachment. The bottom line is you are attached to some thought - some illusion. It doesn't matter if that thought is a thought of a 'real' woman, a drawing or an outright fantasy. The OBJECT of the attachment is not really the problem. It the SUBJECT of the attachment which is the problem and that is your illusory self. If you dissolve the illusion of self, the SUBJECT of the dualistic illusion, there is no longer any OBJECT nor relationship between them. Now all I've said is an attempt at a logical explanation of what I believe happens based on logical models (forms) and terms we both share. But as has been said over and over on this forum explanations do not really have a lot of authority in zen practice. The only real authority or source you can depend on is experience. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, uerusuboyo@... wrote: Bill!,br/br/I agree with most of what you say, but I think you give a limited account of what 'dharma' means. The Dharma is, of course, the main body of Buddha's teaching as well as universal law. But 'dharmas' also have another meaning related to how reality manifests (in this case - thoughts). There are many dharma gates we have to master and seeing thoughts as illusory is only part of the picture. We don't avoid attachment to thoughts just because they are illusory, but because of the craving/aversion they create. Desiring a beautiful woman that you've painted on a piece of paper doesn't make the desire unreal even though the woman is an illusion.br/br/Mikebr/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links
Re: [Zen] Nature of Illusion
You don't make your thoughts, you merely perceive them. At least, not only is the idea of you who could make the thoughts a limited idea, but I personally can't force myself to think a certain thought, to stop thinking some certain thought, or to stop thinking altogether. It is true that zazen seems to increase the ability to focus attention instead of having it fly off, but the content of the attention is not so volitional, at least for me. I find I can notice repetitive patterns in my thoughts by paying attention, and that knowing what type of thoughts are clamoring for my attention is useful. Chris, who finds writing to the Zen forum effortless and my actual work task impossible to think about. Thanks, --Chris 301-270-6524 On May 29, 2013 4:45 AM, Bill! billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote: Edgar and Mike, So...Edgar has his thoughts. Mike has his thoughts. Merle has her thoughts. I have my thoughts. We all make them and we all terminate them. And they are all DIFFERENT! So are you really telling me that you think there is a different set of reality for each person on this planet that they make and terminate all on their own? That's about as dualistic as you can get. Are you telling me you believe reality is dualistic? What you are describing is certainly not what I'd call reality. I'd could call that individual perspectives, or perceptions - anything but reality. And as you know I call them all illusions. If you do decide to continue to call thoughts reality, please call them what you are really describing - realities - individual, customized, temporary realities. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@... wrote: Mike, Correct. As I've said over and over, illusion recognized as illusion is reality, but illusion taken for reality is illusion. The thought in your head of Edgar being a member of a boy band is a perfect example. It's a real thought but the thought is illusory. Now extend that to the entire world you think you live in and YOU'VE GOT IT! Because the entire world you think you live in is a construct of your mind. It exists so it is real, but it is an illusion. Edgar On May 29, 2013, at 12:49 AM, uerusuboyo@... wrote: Edgar, Bill!, I don't have much invested in this topic, but just to clarify a few things I'd like your feedback. When we make our vows at every sit, one of those vows is The dharmas are numberless, I vow to master them. Applying that to this topic, for me, means that a thought (a dharma) is real even if the object of that thought isn't. For example, if I said Edgar is a 20 year old member of a famous boy band, then the thought is real (a dharma) *even though* it is a delusional thought. Mike Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad From: Edgar Owen edgarowen@...; To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com; Subject: [Zen] Nature of Illusion Sent: Wed, May 29, 2013 12:53:51 AM Bill, Philosophy and illusion [edit] Just like many other words often used in a different sense in spirituality the word illusion is used to denote different aspects in Hindu Philosophy (Maya). Many Monist philosophies clearly demarcate illusion from truth and falsehood. As per Hindu advaita philosophy, Illusion is something which is not true and not false. Whereas in general usage it is common to assume that illusion is false, Hindu philosophy makes a distinction between Maya (illusion) and falsehood. In terms of this philosophy maya is true in itself but it is not true in comparison with the truth. As per this philosophy, illusion is not the opposite of truth or reality. Based on these assumptions Vedas declare that the world as humans normally see is illusion (Maya). It does not mean the world is not real. The world is only so much real as the image of a person in a mirror. The world is not real/true when compared to the reality. But the world is also not false. Falsehood is something which does not exist. if w e apply this philosophy to the above example, the illusion is not actually illusion but is false. This is because in general usage people tend to consider lllusion to be the same as falsehood. As per adishankar's a guru of monist teachings the world we think is not true but is an illusion (not true not false). The truth of the world is something which can only be experienced by removing the identity (ego). Edgar Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links
[Zen] Re: Zuli Agrees With Bill!
Mike, Good, no imaginings. Our Zen sesshin and Ch'an retreats are pretty severe. No nothing of *anything* allowed. Except to be there in spades. ;-) That is the True story. ;-) Sheng Yen's outfit her in the States regularly does 10-day sits at the retreat center upstate in New York, at a place near Pine Bush. I did two of them. Only so few because this is their most recent regimen. Seven days used to be the canonical canonical. Canonical. Way of training. With Shih-fu. Best! --Joe uerusuboyo@... wrote: Joe, No worries! I'd be interested in your feedback. I think you'd really enjoy a 10-day retreat. There's Noble Silence for the whole duration (including no books, radios, phones etc, not even gesturing). There are voluntary helpers on the retreats so there's nothing to do other than eat (last meal is served at 11am) and meditate. I think we're beginning to see many Zen practitioners who also practice Vipassana. I can't imagine my practice without both. Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Nature of Illusion
Chris, You have a strange idea of what the 'you' is. Of course 'you' make your thoughts. Your whole organism is your 'you', not just your consciousness. Your whole being obviously generates your thoughts... Where else would they come from? Edgar On May 29, 2013, at 4:24 PM, Chris Austin-Lane wrote: You don't make your thoughts, you merely perceive them. At least, not only is the idea of you who could make the thoughts a limited idea, but I personally can't force myself to think a certain thought, to stop thinking some certain thought, or to stop thinking altogether. It is true that zazen seems to increase the ability to focus attention instead of having it fly off, but the content of the attention is not so volitional, at least for me. I find I can notice repetitive patterns in my thoughts by paying attention, and that knowing what type of thoughts are clamoring for my attention is useful. Chris, who finds writing to the Zen forum effortless and my actual work task impossible to think about. Thanks, --Chris 301-270-6524 On May 29, 2013 4:45 AM, Bill! billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote: Edgar and Mike, So...Edgar has his thoughts. Mike has his thoughts. Merle has her thoughts. I have my thoughts. We all make them and we all terminate them. And they are all DIFFERENT! So are you really telling me that you think there is a different set of reality for each person on this planet that they make and terminate all on their own? That's about as dualistic as you can get. Are you telling me you believe reality is dualistic? What you are describing is certainly not what I'd call reality. I'd could call that individual perspectives, or perceptions - anything but reality. And as you know I call them all illusions. If you do decide to continue to call thoughts reality, please call them what you are really describing - realities - individual, customized, temporary realities. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@... wrote: Mike, Correct. As I've said over and over, illusion recognized as illusion is reality, but illusion taken for reality is illusion. The thought in your head of Edgar being a member of a boy band is a perfect example. It's a real thought but the thought is illusory. Now extend that to the entire world you think you live in and YOU'VE GOT IT! Because the entire world you think you live in is a construct of your mind. It exists so it is real, but it is an illusion. Edgar On May 29, 2013, at 12:49 AM, uerusuboyo@... wrote: Edgar, Bill!, I don't have much invested in this topic, but just to clarify a few things I'd like your feedback. When we make our vows at every sit, one of those vows is The dharmas are numberless, I vow to master them. Applying that to this topic, for me, means that a thought (a dharma) is real even if the object of that thought isn't. For example, if I said Edgar is a 20 year old member of a famous boy band, then the thought is real (a dharma) *even though* it is a delusional thought. Mike Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad From: Edgar Owen edgarowen@...; To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com; Subject: [Zen] Nature of Illusion Sent: Wed, May 29, 2013 12:53:51 AM Bill, Philosophy and illusion [edit] Just like many other words often used in a different sense in spirituality the word illusion is used to denote different aspects in Hindu Philosophy (Maya). Many Monist philosophies clearly demarcate illusion from truth and falsehood. As per Hindu advaita philosophy, Illusion is something which is not true and not false. Whereas in general usage it is common to assume that illusion is false, Hindu philosophy makes a distinction between Maya (illusion) and falsehood. In terms of this philosophy maya is true in itself but it is not true in comparison with the truth. As per this philosophy, illusion is not the opposite of truth or reality. Based on these assumptions Vedas declare that the world as humans normally see is illusion (Maya). It does not mean the world is not real. The world is only so much real as the image of a person in a mirror. The world is not real/true when compared to the reality. But the world is also not false. Falsehood is something which does not exist. if w e apply this philosophy to the above example, the illusion is not actually illusion but is false. This is because in general usage people tend to consider lllusion to be the same as falsehood. As per adishankar's a guru of monist teachings the world we think is not true but is an illusion (not true not false). The truth of the world is something which can only be experienced by removing the identity (ego). Edgar Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you
Re: [Zen] The desperate Kate
Dear Mike, I only spoke here for myself, because that's all who I had in mind. I ain't authoritative about nobody else. ;-) BTW, I had no reason to drink illegally in New Jersey. I had dual-citizenship: across the bridge, or tunnel, into NYC was my home away from home, at an Ivy college, where drinking would not have helped my studies, or grades, anyway. Nor did Pot, Speed, nor Acid. I never did heavy shit. But they helped my character. And my life-long interests. To this day. I was never much of a rebel. I cared less for chemical-agents, because I *WAS* high on Nature. Whew. In fact; I've never come down. Only gotten higher. I've been a Natutral Scientist. Do you know how this goes? I hope so. It's not as bad as it sounds. ;-) It's actually pretty good. And sustainable. If we have a Practice. Ch'an practice was the end of all chemical agents. Might as well drink a cup of TEA! Which I prefer (BTW). Drugs are weaklings, and of no account. Compared to what we have on-board, Mike. Pretty sure you know this!: Vipassana-guy; Zen-guy. ;-) As we say in the South West, Ain't no 'count! Well, some folks do; I note this, like a Sociologist. Or Linguist. Practice trumps all false drop-ins. I am a Practitioner. No apologies for tastes of drugs in the past. --J. uerusuboyo@... wrote: Joe, You maybe right about people's use of entheogens to explore a hidden side of consciousness, but at the end of the day it's *their* business whether they do it or not - not the legislatures. Forgive me of I'm wrong, but in an earlier post you mentioned young people should respect the law and refrain from taking intoxicants (as well as not entering certain relationships not approved of by the law). Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] The Free Kate Campaign
Bill!, As it happened in our desert cow-town, things are better for what my friend and her 7 other peers pressed. I won't generalize. Neither should you. ;-) A fine line exists: do juries see a fault in recorded Laws? If so, go ahead and disregard them. Sure, it's a problem if it is a prejudice: In Tucson, it was not. I advise all Jury members to take the Law into their own hands. That's our System (although some regret it). --Joe Bill! BillSmart@... wrote: Joe, The problem with this is you run the risk of juries making their own law. Like when White juries tried Black defendants. I don't think it's a good idea. Of course if it is a jury trial the judge can always set aside the jury's verdict and impose one of his own. ...Bill! Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Zen] Re: A Question for Edgar about Forms
Bill!, I'm 'way over here, and of no account, but I'd say the same. Not because I've been indoctrinated to say so, but because I have or had to say so after being un-indoctrinated. Good to be Here, --Joe Bill! BillSmart@... wrote: Mike, Zen doesn't really give a shit about all the what's and why's (especially the why's) of all this either. The only thing I can really state with confidence is the experience of Buddha Nature is empty. No forms. It just seems to me that forms only reappear when my intellect kicks back in. That's why I believe forms are a product of my intellect, but the only think I'm sure of is Buddha Nature contains no forms. Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] A Question for Edgar about Forms
Mike, Now, now. How dare you ask such a deflating question. There (!) goes the UNIVERSE! Into a flat pancake. And much flatter than we can comprehend. Mystery flatness. Gone, gone. But not the Parasamgate of the Heart Sutra. Seeing that, I feel better. And forgiving. Long life, ;-) --Joe uerusuboyo@... wrote: Bill!, Sometimes it seems as though you and Edgar are arguing from polar opposites on what emptiness and form are, yet aren't opposites transcended in Buddha Nature, along with all contradictions and paradoxes? Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] zebra skin handbag
Joe, YOU are the one that signed YOUR post with Merle's name And you blame me for joking about it? Edgar On May 29, 2013, at 5:49 PM, Joe wrote: Edgar, When it comes to Mammals, you make a perfect jackass. Often. --Joe Edgar Owen edgarowen@... wrote: Joe and Merle, Yes, it's hard to tell you girls apart sometimes! :-)
Re: [Zen] shady pasts
Bill!, Saying them is one thing. Paying homage in turn to which Devils have heard them and replied to them is another. On the other hand, maybe it was all his doing. Nah. ;-) --Joe Bill! BillSmart@... wrote: Merle, Yes, and I wouldn't doubt if Bill Gates has said a few prayers in his time also - especially when he was starting out and taking lots of chances...Bill! Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Nature of Illusion
excellent mike... take a look at all the illusions or distortions our own western society lives under... what the hell is real? merle Bill!, I have no stake in this topic at all because I don't see the problem with thoughts as being whether they are illusory or not, but rather that the following of them leads to craving/aversion and thus suffering. The 20 year old Edgar is a falsehood and he clearly isn't real, but the the thought itself - however delusional and empty - still exists. It arises from previous conditions and is itself a condition for further effects. Tests in neuroscience show that thoughts need energy and create vibrations. The body can suffer major pathology from a thought. In Australia Aborigines die from having a bone pointed at them and being cursed. The demon might be a falsehood and not exist, but the thought does and has dire consequences. I found this on wiki regarding 'maya': Nāgārjuna, of the Mahāyāna Mādhyamika (i.e., Middle Way) school, discusses nirmita, or illusion closely related to māyā. In this example, the illusion is a self-awareness that is, like the magical illusion, mistaken. For Nagarjuna, the self is not the organizing command center of experience, as we might think. Actually, it is just one element combined with other factors and strung together in a sequence of causally connected moments in time. [[[As such, the self is not substantially real, but neither can it be shown to be unreal]]]. The continuum of moments, which we mistakenly understand to be a solid, unchanging self, still performs actions and undergoes their results. As a magician creates a magical illusion by the force of magic, and the illusion produces another illusion, in the same way the agent is a magical illusion and the action done is the illusion created by another illusion.[16] What we experience may be an illusion, but we are living inside the illusion and bear the fruits of our actions there. We undergo the experiences of the illusion. What we do affects what we experience, so it matters.[17] In this example, Nagarjuna uses the magician's illusion to show that the self is not as real as it thinks, yet, to the extent it is inside the illusion, real enough to warrant respecting the ways of the world. The Theravada interpretation of maya works better for me. Instead of meaning 'illusion' they use the word vipallasa which translates as 'distortion'. This works better for me because it retains the meaning of 'things not being as they appear' without relegating them to non-existence. Hope that helps! Mike Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad From: Bill! billsm...@hhs1963.org; To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com; Subject: Re: [Zen] Nature of Illusion Sent: Wed, May 29, 2013 10:14:01 AM Mike, I'm getting very, very weary of all this. I could go through your quote below phrase by phrase, line by line to tell you why I think it is either wrong or why you are misinterpreting it, but what good would that do? If you and Edgar won't or can't recognize the difference between thought and experience, between illusion and Buddha Nature, between theology and zen practice then there is just really nothing more I can say. If you can recognize the difference but just don't want to use the word illusion then come up with a different word, but a word that discriminates thoughts from experience. YOU (your illusory self) creates thoughts. YOU terminate them. Do you really think YOU (illusory or not) can actually create and terminate reality? No! YOU can create and terminate thoughts because they are illusions. You (your illusory self) can only PERCEIVE (form thoughts about) reality. Buddha Nature is the experience of reality. And one more thing...the word 'dharma' was brought to you by the same folks that also brought to you the word 'maya'. Do you think they would have two very specific words for what you are claiming is the same thing? ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, uerusuboyo@... wrote: Bill!,br/br/Just looked up a definition of 'dharma', too. Buddhism.about.combr/br/br/Definition:br/Dharma in both Hinduism and Buddhism refers to the principle or law that orders the universe. In Buddhism, the word in particular points to the law of karma and rebirth.br/br/Because this law was recognized and formulated by the historical Buddha, dharma is most commonly used in Buddhism to mean the teachings of the Buddha.br/br/Dharma is also used in Mahayana Buddhism to mean manifestation of reality. This sense can be found in the Heart Sutra, which refers to the voidness or emptiness (shunyata) of all dharmas.br/br/In Theravada Buddhism, dharma is a term for the factors of existence, or the transitory conditions that cause phenomena to come into being.br/br/Dharma is also sometimes used to refer to ethical rules and to mental objects or thoughts.br/br/br/ br/br/So now I
[Zen] Re: Nature of Illusion
Bill!, et everybody else, I have my DOUBTS; but my definite HOPES: Ps andQs: hey, pls. come out of the Woodwork, all of you's (you all). You're needed; If you don't think so: well; resign from this Group instantly. Now. Do not bother to hesitate. --Joe Bill! BillSmart@... wrote: Merle, If you think the communication on the Forum is just between two or three or four individuals - YES! - that's a big illusion. I don't know for sure but I'd guess there are at least 20, and probably 50, and maybe 100 people that regularly read our posts but never (or very rarely) post themselves. The technical term for people like these in forum-ese is 'lurkers'. So...watch your P's and Q's. Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Nature of Illusion
Bill!, Rest! Wishes, --Joe Bill! BillSmart@... wrote: Mike, I'm getting very, very weary of all this. Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Nature of Illusion
Edgar, Yet, it's standard ignorant cognition. And has nothing to do with Zen. You heard it here Second. Your teachers told you this First. Not that they are proud of you. ;-) ...deceased as they are, and not aware of your mis-representing even the long-hand (non-practicing), words-only teaching )of theirs, not yours). Paltry. Less. All Readers here can do better, --Joe Edgar Owen edgarowen@... wrote: Mike, Correct. As I've said over and over, illusion recognized as illusion is reality, but illusion taken for reality is illusion. Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] zebra skin handbag
Dear Edgar. Never happened. And, ask Merle why it would happen, possibly: See? Cousins are one thing. But we are not identical. Left ventrical. Right. Now, don't give us a hard time: It's unseemly. You're already shown -self to be delusional, in more ways than pi. Among and to those with the Eye to see. Otherwise, hoping all's well. Strong practice, --Joe Edgar Owen edgarowen@... wrote: Joe, YOU are the one that signed YOUR post with Merle's name And you blame me for joking about it? Edgar Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] zebra skin handbag
edgar..edgar.. dear edgar... go back through the posts.. it was mike..and mike will say so to... as joe says it never happened keep your finger on the pulse and watch where you steer your ship or you might just might just land on the rocks and then what? merle Dear Edgar. Never happened. And, ask Merle why it would happen, possibly: See? Cousins are one thing. But we are not identical. Left ventrical. Right. Now, don't give us a hard time: It's unseemly. You're already shown -self to be delusional, in more ways than pi. Among and to those with the Eye to see. Otherwise, hoping all's well. Strong practice, --Joe Edgar Owen edgarowen@... wrote: Joe, YOU are the one that signed YOUR post with Merle's name And you blame me for joking about it? Edgar
[Zen] A laser-cut wooden record that actually plays music :
for joe...cheers merle http://www.treehugger.com/gadgets/laser-cut-wooden-record-actually-plays-music.html
[Zen] Re: A laser-cut wooden record that actually plays music :
Fantastic, Merle! Well, of COURSE it plays. Nothing could be more natural. I always regretted digital CDs coming out in 1981 because I was sure a linearly-tracked 33 1/3 RPM turntable with Laser Stereo pickup would be on the market soon. In fact, it was, but it was squelched by CD. Oh, well. Digital does not hold a candle to analog. Or, they're close; but, the laser-turntables deserved a chance. And never got it. I'm also sure the future of computers is analog. Digital is old-hat. Many processes are thus not modeled correctly, when it comes to the many processes we care about. Give it another twenty years, to get over this errant fixation/lack of imagination. Alas. Pshaww-w. Everything in due time. The future is tomorrow. --Joe Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote: for joe...cheers merle http://www.treehugger.com/gadgets/laser-cut-wooden-record-actually-plays-music.html Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] sitting
Edgar, Give me a Stone Buddha any day. Living Buddhas are a dime a dozen (around here). --Joe Edgar Owen edgarowen@... wrote: Merle, Great! Yes, this is you guys' idea of what Zen is. Just become an inanimate chunk of concrete! :-) At least if you want a stone Buddha get one with some class like this one I just sold.. Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Zen] Craig Venter: Designing life |
for the scientists amongst you...merle http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/craig-venter-designing-life/
[Zen] Re: Craig Venter: Designing life |
Merle, There are many scientists. And many others who would appeal to scientists. And other ordinary citiZens. No comments on this fellow! --Joe Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote: for the scientists amongst you...merle http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/craig-venter-designing-life/ Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] see ( sea) life..drawing..2006
Merle, Wonderful! Edgar On May 29, 2013, at 7:08 PM, Merle Lester wrote: IMG_6821_2.jpg IMG_6821
Re: [Zen] zebra skin handbag
Joe, Merle SAID you did it just a day or too ago and you seemed to confirm it. Check the emails... Edgar On May 29, 2013, at 7:40 PM, Joe wrote: Dear Edgar. Never happened. And, ask Merle why it would happen, possibly: See? Cousins are one thing. But we are not identical. Left ventrical. Right. Now, don't give us a hard time: It's unseemly. You're already shown -self to be delusional, in more ways than pi. Among and to those with the Eye to see. Otherwise, hoping all's well. Strong practice, --Joe Edgar Owen edgarowen@... wrote: Joe, YOU are the one that signed YOUR post with Merle's name And you blame me for joking about it? Edgar
Re: [Zen] zebra skin handbag
Merle, OK, it was Mike not Joe. Mea culpa Joe But it was an honest mistake.. Edgar On May 29, 2013, at 7:45 PM, Merle Lester wrote: edgar..edgar.. dear edgar... go back through the posts.. it was mike..and mike will say so to... as joe says it never happened keep your finger on the pulse and watch where you steer your ship or you might just might just land on the rocks and then what? merle Dear Edgar. Never happened. And, ask Merle why it would happen, possibly: See? Cousins are one thing. But we are not identical. Left ventrical. Right. Now, don't give us a hard time: It's unseemly. You're already shown -self to be delusional, in more ways than pi. Among and to those with the Eye to see. Otherwise, hoping all's well. Strong practice, --Joe Edgar Owen edgarowen@... wrote: Joe, YOU are the one that signed YOUR post with Merle's name And you blame me for joking about it? Edgar
Re: [Zen] zebra skin handbag
edgar..no no no... it was mike..i said it was mike...please check edgar... mike ..speak up!... merle Joe, Merle SAID you did it just a day or too ago and you seemed to confirm it. Check the emails... Edgar On May 29, 2013, at 7:40 PM, Joe wrote: Dear Edgar. Never happened. And, ask Merle why it would happen, possibly: See? Cousins are one thing. But we are not identical. Left ventrical. Right. Now, don't give us a hard time: It's unseemly. You're already shown -self to be delusional, in more ways than pi. Among and to those with the Eye to see. Otherwise, hoping all's well. Strong practice, --Joe Edgar Owen edgarowen@... wrote: Joe, YOU are the one that signed YOUR post with Merle's name And you blame me for joking about it? Edgar
Re: [Zen] Craig Venter: Designing life |
joe... he is as important they say as darwin was/ is.. i thought you scientists would be at least interested and give some feedback to this citZEN!... merle for the scientists amongst you...merle http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/craig-venter-designing-life/
[Zen] Re: wooden record that plays a walk on the wild side
joe... i still have my turntable from the late 60's.. and plenty of u beaut records from that era...as they say collectors records... those wild wild flower power hippy days when popular music was just so so so fabulous and so so so creative... how lucky were we to experience that time! and be young and wild what's the old song? a walk on the wild side! merle Fantastic, Merle! Well, of COURSE it plays. Nothing could be more natural. I always regretted digital CDs coming out in 1981 because I was sure a linearly-tracked 33 1/3 RPM turntable with Laser Stereo pickup would be on the market soon. In fact, it was, but it was squelched by CD. Oh, well. Digital does not hold a candle to analog. Or, they're close; but, the laser-turntables deserved a chance. And never got it. I'm also sure the future of computers is analog. Digital is old-hat. Many processes are thus not modeled correctly, when it comes to the many processes we care about. Give it another twenty years, to get over this errant fixation/lack of imagination. Alas. Pshaww-w. Everything in due time. The future is tomorrow. --Joe Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote: for joe...cheers merle http://www.treehugger.com/gadgets/laser-cut-wooden-record-actually-plays-music.html
Re: [Zen] zebra skin handbag
Edgar, Dunno. Can't vouch. No emails here. Any post-number to refer to on the Group website? Main points are: Be well; Strong practice. Surely, we may be able to follow up on minor points. --Joe Edgar Owen edgarowen@... wrote: Joe, Merle SAID you did it just a day or too ago and you seemed to confirm it. Check the emails... Edgar Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Craig Venter: Designing life |
Merle, He's in my near-range radar, Cousin. I am a Physical scientist; not biological scientist. I let others sing his praises. Of course I've heard of him, once or twice. He has not heard of me. Yet, he and his progeny owe his life to our work in mitigating near-earth asteroid hazards. I am not a show-boat type. Unless you want to pay me to become one. ;-) I don't read or gloat gratuitously about mere scientists. Big suck!: That is my comment (on lots of things; truth be told). No diminution: Just a welcome to the Large World, to those who propose and suppose to make a splash, in our Water-World (70-percent). --Joe --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, joe... he is as important they say as darwin was/ is.. i thought you scientists would be at least interested and give some feedback to this citZEN!... Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Zen] Re: wooden record that plays a walk on the wild side
Merle, Belt-drive, or direct-(Induction)-drive turntable ? If belt-drive, get a new belt ASAP, while still available. And put it on. ;-) Probably 30 years too late! But, give a try to find one... . ;-) Search on the web by Make and Model Number of the turntable, for the proper belt. The belts get stretchy, and no longer grip. Try to play a record, and it will sound like, well, I won't say. ;-) Be sure you have a new stylus for the cartridge, too. Usually, the styli are so worn out that they will harm what's left of vinyl records. Be safe! And clean the record(s) scrupulously, the way(s) you can find on the Web. Good (safe, non-destructive) analog(ue) listening, --Joe / hippy-dippy turn-table guy Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote: joe... i still have my turntable from the late 60's.. and plenty of u beaut records from that era...as they say collectors records... those wild wild flower power hippy days when popular music was just so so so fabulous and so so so creative... how lucky were we to experience that time! and be young and wild what's the old song? a walk on the wild side! merle Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Craig Venter: Designing life |
Merle, Nah! He had fun in his video, maybe. So did I in mine! We're even. Here's a snippet of me in mine at the Observatory. Maybe you've seen it, already. We did it only 17 years ago! Like last night... . For this Astronomer. Time is relative(ly inscrutable). http://www.nbcnews.com/video/space.com/10053358#10053358 Hail, the Friendly Skies! --Joe Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote: joe... he is as important they say as darwin was/ is.. i thought you scientists would be at least interested and give some feedback to this citZEN!... Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Nature of Illusion
Mike, I could accept the word 'distortions'. To me as you've explained it below 'distortions' seems to carry the same meaning for me as the term 'perceptions'. The important part for me is that they are clearly distinguished from experience. For now I will continue to use the word 'illusions'. I would only caution though that if you call them 'distortions' be careful not to assume they are always based on reality (experience). 'Distortions' for me carries the implication that there is something actually 'real' out there that is the source of the distortion. Some of what I call 'illusions' are pure fantasy. That's just an FYI (IMO of course). I don't doubt that illusions can be correlated with physical measurements within the brain. I hope we're not now going to go down some scientific measurement road to explain, support or refute zen or zen practices. That's a closed loop and goes nowhere. The bone-pointing description as you've pointed out only works on someone who believes those powers are real. Believing they are real doesn't make them real, although yes there is power in belief - if you are locked-in to the dualistic illusion that your self is real. If you realize your self is illusory and are able to recognize that in your daily activities I am sure bone-pointing wouldn't have that same effect. I only half-agree with your ambivalence about what these are called. I agree the name means nothing, but since they are associated directly with attachment and suffering I think it's helpful to point out that they are only present in dualistic thought and as such are 'distortions' that can at least be recognized and 'brought into clearer focus' through zen practice. (Which is the equivalent of me saying: ...and as such are 'illusions' that can at least be recognized and 'made more transparent' through zen practice. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, uerusuboyo@... wrote: Bill!,br/br/I have no stake in this topic at all because I don't see the problem with thoughts as being whether they are illusory or not, but rather that the following of them leads to craving/aversion and thus suffering. The 20 year old Edgar is a falsehood and he clearly isn't real, but the the thought itself - however delusional and empty - still exists. It arises from previous conditions and is itself a condition for further effects. Tests in neuroscience show that thoughts need energy and create vibrations. The body can suffer major pathology from a thought. In Australia Aborigines die from having a bone pointed at them and being cursed. The demon might be a falsehood and not exist, but the thought does and has dire consequences.br/br/I found this on wiki regarding 'maya':br/br/NÄgÄrjuna, of the MahÄyÄna MÄdhyamika (i.e., Middle Way) school, discusses nirmita, or illusion closely related to mÄyÄ. In this example, the illusion is a self-awareness that is, like the magical illusion, mistaken. For Nagarjuna, the self is not the organizing command center of experience, as we might think. Actually, it is just one element combined with other factors and strung together in a sequence of causally connected moments in time. [[[As such, the self is not substantially real, but neither can it be shown to be unreal]]].The continuum of moments, which we mistakenly understand to be a solid, unchanging self, still performs actions and undergoes their results. As a magician creates a magical illusion by the force of magic, and the illusion produces another illusion, in the same way the agent is a magical illusion and the action done is the illusion created by another illusion.[16] What we experience may be an illusion, but we are living inside the illusion and bear the fruits of our actions there. We undergo the experiences of the illusion. What we do affects what we experience, so it matters.[17] In this example, Nagarjuna uses the magician's illusion to show that the self is not as real as it thinks, yet, to the extent it is inside the illusion, real enough to warrant respecting the ways of the world.br/br/ br/The Theravada interpretation of maya works better for me. Instead of meaning 'illusion' they use the word vipallasa which translates as 'distortion'. This works better for me because it retains the meaning of 'things not being as they appear' without relegating them to non-existence.br/br/Hope that helps!br/br/Mikebr/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email:
Re: [Zen] Nature of Illusion
Mike, I've never heard that before, but could kind of see what it means. However at some point I do start discounting Buddhist doctrine and dogma. I've told you that before. I think Buddhist teachings are useful up to a point, as a general metaphor which tries to explain all these things, but if taken 'as gospel' (pardon the pun) they are just more attachments that you're eventually going to have to deal with. ...Bill@ --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, uerusuboyo@... wrote: Bill!,br/br/All dualities, contradictions and paradoxes are reconciled in buddhahood, so I don't see a problem. Doesn't Mahayana say that Samsara is no different to Nirvana?br/br/Mikebr/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Nature of Illusion
Chris, I can will myself to think about the things I want to think about. There are also a lot of times I think about things spontaneously and even involuntarily. I can halt my thinking. That's what zazen/shikantaza is. I agree that thoughts are perceptions, but then again in my terminology perceptions and illusions are pretty much the same thing. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Chris Austin-Lane chris@... wrote: You don't make your thoughts, you merely perceive them. At least, not only is the idea of you who could make the thoughts a limited idea, but I personally can't force myself to think a certain thought, to stop thinking some certain thought, or to stop thinking altogether. It is true that zazen seems to increase the ability to focus attention instead of having it fly off, but the content of the attention is not so volitional, at least for me. I find I can notice repetitive patterns in my thoughts by paying attention, and that knowing what type of thoughts are clamoring for my attention is useful. Chris, who finds writing to the Zen forum effortless and my actual work task impossible to think about. Thanks, --Chris 301-270-6524 On May 29, 2013 4:45 AM, Bill! BillSmart@... wrote: Edgar and Mike, So...Edgar has his thoughts. Mike has his thoughts. Merle has her thoughts. I have my thoughts. We all make them and we all terminate them. And they are all DIFFERENT! So are you really telling me that you think there is a different set of reality for each person on this planet that they make and terminate all on their own? That's about as dualistic as you can get. Are you telling me you believe reality is dualistic? What you are describing is certainly not what I'd call reality. I'd could call that individual perspectives, or perceptions - anything but reality. And as you know I call them all illusions. If you do decide to continue to call thoughts reality, please call them what you are really describing - realities - individual, customized, temporary realities. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@ wrote: Mike, Correct. As I've said over and over, illusion recognized as illusion is reality, but illusion taken for reality is illusion. The thought in your head of Edgar being a member of a boy band is a perfect example. It's a real thought but the thought is illusory. Now extend that to the entire world you think you live in and YOU'VE GOT IT! Because the entire world you think you live in is a construct of your mind. It exists so it is real, but it is an illusion. Edgar On May 29, 2013, at 12:49 AM, uerusuboyo@ wrote: Edgar, Bill!, I don't have much invested in this topic, but just to clarify a few things I'd like your feedback. When we make our vows at every sit, one of those vows is The dharmas are numberless, I vow to master them. Applying that to this topic, for me, means that a thought (a dharma) is real even if the object of that thought isn't. For example, if I said Edgar is a 20 year old member of a famous boy band, then the thought is real (a dharma) *even though* it is a delusional thought. Mike Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad From: Edgar Owen edgarowen@; To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com; Subject: [Zen] Nature of Illusion Sent: Wed, May 29, 2013 12:53:51 AM Bill, Philosophy and illusion [edit] Just like many other words often used in a different sense in spirituality the word illusion is used to denote different aspects in Hindu Philosophy (Maya). Many Monist philosophies clearly demarcate illusion from truth and falsehood. As per Hindu advaita philosophy, Illusion is something which is not true and not false. Whereas in general usage it is common to assume that illusion is false, Hindu philosophy makes a distinction between Maya (illusion) and falsehood. In terms of this philosophy maya is true in itself but it is not true in comparison with the truth. As per this philosophy, illusion is not the opposite of truth or reality. Based on these assumptions Vedas declare that the world as humans normally see is illusion (Maya). It does not mean the world is not real. The world is only so much real as the image of a person in a mirror. The world is not real/true when compared to the reality. But the world is also not false. Falsehood is something which does not exist. if w e apply this philosophy to the above example, the illusion is not actually illusion but is false. This is because in general usage people tend to consider lllusion to be the same as falsehood. As per adishankar's a guru of monist teachings the world we think is not true but is an illusion (not true not false). The truth of the world is something which can only be experienced by removing the identity (ego).
Re: [Zen] The Free Kate Campaign
Joe, I still think disregarding the law is not a good thing in the long run. It might seem to be in the short term and for specific cases, but my feeling on this is the same as Abraham Lincoln's who said The best way to get a bad law repealed is to enforce it strictly. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Joe desert_woodworker@... wrote: Bill!, As it happened in our desert cow-town, things are better for what my friend and her 7 other peers pressed. I won't generalize. Neither should you. ;-) A fine line exists: do juries see a fault in recorded Laws? If so, go ahead and disregard them. Sure, it's a problem if it is a prejudice: In Tucson, it was not. I advise all Jury members to take the Law into their own hands. That's our System (although some regret it). --Joe Bill! BillSmart@ wrote: Joe, The problem with this is you run the risk of juries making their own law. Like when White juries tried Black defendants. I don't think it's a good idea. Of course if it is a jury trial the judge can always set aside the jury's verdict and impose one of his own. ...Bill! Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Zen] Re: A laser-cut wooden record that actually plays music :
Joe, I'm an analog-kind-of-guy too! ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Joe desert_woodworker@... wrote: Fantastic, Merle! Well, of COURSE it plays. Nothing could be more natural. I always regretted digital CDs coming out in 1981 because I was sure a linearly-tracked 33 1/3 RPM turntable with Laser Stereo pickup would be on the market soon. In fact, it was, but it was squelched by CD. Oh, well. Digital does not hold a candle to analog. Or, they're close; but, the laser-turntables deserved a chance. And never got it. I'm also sure the future of computers is analog. Digital is old-hat. Many processes are thus not modeled correctly, when it comes to the many processes we care about. Give it another twenty years, to get over this errant fixation/lack of imagination. Alas. Pshaww-w. Everything in due time. The future is tomorrow. --Joe Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote: for joe...cheers merle http://www.treehugger.com/gadgets/laser-cut-wooden-record-actually-plays-music.html Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] zebra skin handbag
Edgar, Is an 'honest mistake' as 'real mistake' or just an 'illusory mistake'? Or an 'illusory mistake' recognized as a 'real mistake' which of course makes it an 'honest mistake? ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@... wrote: Merle, OK, it was Mike not Joe. Mea culpa Joe But it was an honest mistake.. Edgar On May 29, 2013, at 7:45 PM, Merle Lester wrote: edgar..edgar.. dear edgar... go back through the posts.. it was mike..and mike will say so to... as joe says it never happened keep your finger on the pulse and watch where you steer your ship or you might just might just land on the rocks and then what? merle Dear Edgar. Never happened. And, ask Merle why it would happen, possibly: See? Cousins are one thing. But we are not identical. Left ventrical. Right. Now, don't give us a hard time: It's unseemly. You're already shown -self to be delusional, in more ways than pi. Among and to those with the Eye to see. Otherwise, hoping all's well. Strong practice, --Joe Edgar Owen edgarowen@ wrote: Joe, YOU are the one that signed YOUR post with Merle's name And you blame me for joking about it? Edgar Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Craig Venter: Designing life |
Joe, Nice clip! And congratulations. Was the comet eventually named? If so what, Comet Montani? I think Comet Joe would be the best. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Joe desert_woodworker@... wrote: Merle, Nah! He had fun in his video, maybe. So did I in mine! We're even. Here's a snippet of me in mine at the Observatory. Maybe you've seen it, already. We did it only 17 years ago! Like last night... . For this Astronomer. Time is relative(ly inscrutable). http://www.nbcnews.com/video/space.com/10053358#10053358 Hail, the Friendly Skies! --Joe Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote: joe... he is as important they say as darwin was/ is.. i thought you scientists would be at least interested and give some feedback to this citZEN!... Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] The Free Kate Campaign
Bill!, I have no qualms about my peers acquitting the fellow entrapped by poseur-queer poseurs of our Tucson Police force, in Arizona. This is called Jury-Justice, again. It is available to Jurors of conscience, who *ALL* agree with each other on a Law's injustice, or its enforcement, in a (ANY) case. And who want to pelt the D. A. with a wake-up call. Sometimes it takes this. Democracy has many Avenues. And even byways. With wishes, --Joe Bill! BillSmart@... wrote: Joe, I still think disregarding the law is not a good thing in the long run. It might seem to be in the short term and for specific cases, but my feeling on this is the same as Abraham Lincoln's who said The best way to get a bad law repealed is to enforce it strictly. Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Zen] Re: A laser-cut wooden record that actually plays music :
Bill!, Lemmee shake your five digit hand! ;-) --Joe Bill! BillSmart@... wrote: Joe, I'm an analog-kind-of-guy too! ...Bill! Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Fw: [Zen] Craig Venter: Designing life |
joe...brilliant..you are brilliant like the shining stars... i believe i did view it once last year.. thank you again for sharing and all your zen teaching... which is so instructive and so worthwhile for me... are you still star gazing at home?... what is a good home telescope to purchase ?...(within the budget of a pauper) all the best.. merle Merle, Nah! He had fun in his video, maybe. So did I in mine! We're even. Here's a snippet of me in mine at the Observatory. Maybe you've seen it, already. We did it only 17 years ago! Like last night... . For this Astronomer. Time is relative(ly inscrutable). http://www.nbcnews.com/video/space.com/10053358#10053358 Hail, the Friendly Skies! --Joe Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote: joe... he is as important they say as darwin was/ is.. i thought you scientists would be at least interested and give some feedback to this citZEN!...
Re: [Zen] Nature of Illusion
The false idea pointed to by thoughts of self included such things as choice. I think thoughts arise without volition, without much choice as we normally conceive of it. One chooses to think a given thought in roughly the same way a person who smokes chooses to have lung cancer. If by Make you mean something not involving volition, then I agree (assuming you also mean body/mind by you). My whole being != me There is nothing whatsoever to be clung to as me or mine; my whole being is just one bit of the great stream of the universe flowing on. The thing that causes a specific though rather than some other thought or non-thinking t is what I refer to as the whole history of the universe, balanced with exquisite sensitivity by the balance measuring devices, neuronal junctions and neuronal networks. Post hoc sometimes one can see what led up to a given thought, but not always. And before the thought happens, it can't really be caused or even predicted with great confidence. Maybe really good marketers can get 10% of their memes spread successfully, but in general humans are not that good at predicting what groups of humans will think and do in the future. Thanks, --Chris 301-270-6524 On May 29, 2013 1:53 PM, Edgar Owen edgaro...@att.net wrote: Chris, You have a strange idea of what the 'you' is. Of course 'you' make your thoughts. Your whole organism is your 'you', not just your consciousness. Your whole being obviously generates your thoughts... Where else would they come from? Edgar On May 29, 2013, at 4:24 PM, Chris Austin-Lane wrote: You don't make your thoughts, you merely perceive them. At least, not only is the idea of you who could make the thoughts a limited idea, but I personally can't force myself to think a certain thought, to stop thinking some certain thought, or to stop thinking altogether. It is true that zazen seems to increase the ability to focus attention instead of having it fly off, but the content of the attention is not so volitional, at least for me. I find I can notice repetitive patterns in my thoughts by paying attention, and that knowing what type of thoughts are clamoring for my attention is useful. Chris, who finds writing to the Zen forum effortless and my actual work task impossible to think about. Thanks, --Chris 301-270-6524 On May 29, 2013 4:45 AM, Bill! billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote: Edgar and Mike, So...Edgar has his thoughts. Mike has his thoughts. Merle has her thoughts. I have my thoughts. We all make them and we all terminate them. And they are all DIFFERENT! So are you really telling me that you think there is a different set of reality for each person on this planet that they make and terminate all on their own? That's about as dualistic as you can get. Are you telling me you believe reality is dualistic? What you are describing is certainly not what I'd call reality. I'd could call that individual perspectives, or perceptions - anything but reality. And as you know I call them all illusions. If you do decide to continue to call thoughts reality, please call them what you are really describing - realities - individual, customized, temporary realities. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@... wrote: Mike, Correct. As I've said over and over, illusion recognized as illusion is reality, but illusion taken for reality is illusion. The thought in your head of Edgar being a member of a boy band is a perfect example. It's a real thought but the thought is illusory. Now extend that to the entire world you think you live in and YOU'VE GOT IT! Because the entire world you think you live in is a construct of your mind. It exists so it is real, but it is an illusion. Edgar On May 29, 2013, at 12:49 AM, uerusuboyo@... wrote: Edgar, Bill!, I don't have much invested in this topic, but just to clarify a few things I'd like your feedback. When we make our vows at every sit, one of those vows is The dharmas are numberless, I vow to master them. Applying that to this topic, for me, means that a thought (a dharma) is real even if the object of that thought isn't. For example, if I said Edgar is a 20 year old member of a famous boy band, then the thought is real (a dharma) *even though* it is a delusional thought. Mike Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad From: Edgar Owen edgarowen@...; To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com; Subject: [Zen] Nature of Illusion Sent: Wed, May 29, 2013 12:53:51 AM Bill, Philosophy and illusion [edit] Just like many other words often used in a different sense in spirituality the word illusion is used to denote different aspects in Hindu Philosophy (Maya). Many Monist philosophies clearly demarcate illusion from truth and falsehood. As per Hindu advaita philosophy, Illusion is something which is not true and not false. Whereas in general usage it is
Re: [Zen] Nature of Illusion
On Wed, May 29, 2013 at 7:15 PM, Bill! billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote: I can will myself to think about the things I want to think about. There are also a lot of times I think about things spontaneously and even involuntarily. I can halt my thinking. That's what zazen/shikantaza is. Perhaps my distinction is silly, but I'm not talking about the subject of the thought (I need to think about tomorrow's schedule now -- ok go) but about the thought itself - Oh god, I have to talk to X, can't stand them. As far as stopping your thinking, I will take your word for it. When I sit, my thinking can halt, but it is not me stopping it, it is me relaxing and the natural quiet coming to the fore. Trying to will myself into no-thinking isn't too useful. I agree that thoughts are perceptions, but then again in my terminology perceptions and illusions are pretty much the same thing. Thanks, --Chris ch...@austin-lane.net +1-301-270-6524
Re: [Zen] Craig Venter: Designing life |
Thanks, Bill! I've discovered FOUR, and so have four Comets to my name. They are all Comet Montani. More Comets than I have KIDS!, by four to zero! (to SPEAK of... ) . But, they are my babies. Seriously. Only one is essentially periodic though, sir. The other three are of long-period: Longer than any human will live. But, one of my guys comes back in about 2 more years! My colleagues will recover it, especially my fine colleague, Jim Scotti, great comet re-coverer. Or, Carl Hergenrother will bag it! These guys are assiduous. I've hung up my cleats. But I could jump back on the field if I wanted. My jersey is not (yet) lofted high into the rafters of the Observatory (no rafters, in those round domes). Nah, will never be. Our glory is in our discoveries, and our friendships around the world. Many in Japan, Australia, Argentina, Chile, Europe, USA, Hawai'i, Isla de Los Muchachos, Canarias, etc. All Astronomers, Observers, Planetary Scientists. And, before this, Radio Astronomers, in another career, and just about the same continents. And, then, InfraRed Astronomers (hard to see them), but lots of Astrophysical as well as Planetary work there, too. Of Earth-orbit-crossing asteroids, I've discovered about 300, Bill. They do not take the Observer's name, but the Observer gets to name them, IFF we wish. Naming is tough. There are rules. It sometimes takes five years to get a naming done. There is an International committee if 13 guys who rule on this, at the International Astronomical Union, Committee for Small Bodies Nomenclature (CSBN). The NEAs (Near Earth Asteroids) were our main quarry at Spacewatch. For safety's sake. And, well, because we were actually doing Solar System dynamics(!), and a survey of the entire Solar System, even out to and beyond the Trans-Neptunians (some of which I also discovered). The inventory of the Solar System is still incomplete! I really ought to get my ass back in gear. I'm too young to sit-it-out. But I'm loving oil-painting... shoot. And target archery. And Rose gardening: in a blast-furnace! (Southern-Arizona). ;-) I've also named a slew of Main-Belt asteroids, including Haiku, and Samadhi; and, Wabi-Sabi. Plus 35 others. I wouldn't pull your beard, Bill!. ;-) I still have naming-rights on others yet un-named, because it was I who discovered them. I have hundreds MORE I could name, tomorrow. Nope! Can't bribe me to name one after you, or your sweetie. But someone in the past named an asteroid after Mister Spock, who was ...his CAT! The Committee no longer allows pets. Shucks... . Thanks, your comments! --Joe / (dangerous guy, with a 'scope) Bill! BillSmart@... wrote: Joe, Nice clip! And congratulations. Was the comet eventually named? If so what, Comet Montani? I think Comet Joe would be the best. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Joe desert_woodworker@ wrote: Merle, Nah! He had fun in his video, maybe. So did I in mine! We're even. Here's a snippet of me in mine at the Observatory. Maybe you've seen it, already. We did it only 17 years ago! Like last night... . For this Astronomer. Time is relative(ly inscrutable). http://www.nbcnews.com/video/space.com/10053358#10053358 Hail, the Friendly Skies! --Joe Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: Fw: [Zen] Craig Venter: Designing life |
Merle, Thanks! All my pretty big telescopes are home-made, since the 1960s. But, I bought this little puppy a couple years ago. It's better than a toy!: http://www.celestron.com/astronomy/celestron-omni-xlt-102.html It's a five-inch Refractor. A very low-maintenance telescope. I bought the two-axis drives with it, too (on the mounting), as an upgrade (almost a necessity). You could do with a lot lesser of a 'scope, though. I'm kinda demanding. But not so demanding to buy what I could better make myself. So, I bought this small portable thing! It's GREAT!! I toss it in the hybrid (car), and go out where it's dark. Or else just use it on planets and the moon, at home in town. In the yard. And to Wow the neighbors with a view of stuff (and their kids). I wish it were f/15 instead of f/9. Not a quibble: the lateral color can be objectionable. If you care about such things. I am an Optics afficionado, and lens-designer. Not to worry, otherwise. Good lil' 'scope! For poking around. Best!, Clear Skies, --Joe --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote: joe...brilliant..you are brilliant like the shining stars... i believe i did view it once last year.. thank you again for sharing and all your zen teaching... which is so instructive and so worthwhile for me... are you still star gazing at home?... what is a good home telescope to purchase ?...(within the budget of a pauper) all the best.. merle Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: Fw: [Zen] Craig Venter: Designing life |
Merle, Oops, correction: I bought *THIS* one: it's a little larger: http://www.celestron.com/astronomy/celestron-omni-xlt-120.html --Joe Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote: joe...brilliant..you are brilliant like the shining stars... Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Nature of Illusion
Chris, I agree with your correction. I don't stop my thoughts, as in forcefully stop them, but I allow them to stop (quiesce)...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Chris Austin-Lane chris@... wrote: On Wed, May 29, 2013 at 7:15 PM, Bill! BillSmart@... wrote: I can will myself to think about the things I want to think about. There are also a lot of times I think about things spontaneously and even involuntarily. I can halt my thinking. That's what zazen/shikantaza is. Perhaps my distinction is silly, but I'm not talking about the subject of the thought (I need to think about tomorrow's schedule now -- ok go) but about the thought itself - Oh god, I have to talk to X, can't stand them. As far as stopping your thinking, I will take your word for it. When I sit, my thinking can halt, but it is not me stopping it, it is me relaxing and the natural quiet coming to the fore. Trying to will myself into no-thinking isn't too useful. I agree that thoughts are perceptions, but then again in my terminology perceptions and illusions are pretty much the same thing. Thanks, --Chris chris@... +1-301-270-6524 Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Craig Venter: Designing life |
Joe, I was gazing intently into the heavens one night and named a shooting star. I called it Wow! ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Joe desert_woodworker@... wrote: Thanks, Bill! I've discovered FOUR, and so have four Comets to my name. They are all Comet Montani. More Comets than I have KIDS!, by four to zero! (to SPEAK of... ) . But, they are my babies. Seriously. Only one is essentially periodic though, sir. The other three are of long-period: Longer than any human will live. But, one of my guys comes back in about 2 more years! My colleagues will recover it, especially my fine colleague, Jim Scotti, great comet re-coverer. Or, Carl Hergenrother will bag it! These guys are assiduous. I've hung up my cleats. But I could jump back on the field if I wanted. My jersey is not (yet) lofted high into the rafters of the Observatory (no rafters, in those round domes). Nah, will never be. Our glory is in our discoveries, and our friendships around the world. Many in Japan, Australia, Argentina, Chile, Europe, USA, Hawai'i, Isla de Los Muchachos, Canarias, etc. All Astronomers, Observers, Planetary Scientists. And, before this, Radio Astronomers, in another career, and just about the same continents. And, then, InfraRed Astronomers (hard to see them), but lots of Astrophysical as well as Planetary work there, too. Of Earth-orbit-crossing asteroids, I've discovered about 300, Bill. They do not take the Observer's name, but the Observer gets to name them, IFF we wish. Naming is tough. There are rules. It sometimes takes five years to get a naming done. There is an International committee if 13 guys who rule on this, at the International Astronomical Union, Committee for Small Bodies Nomenclature (CSBN). The NEAs (Near Earth Asteroids) were our main quarry at Spacewatch. For safety's sake. And, well, because we were actually doing Solar System dynamics(!), and a survey of the entire Solar System, even out to and beyond the Trans-Neptunians (some of which I also discovered). The inventory of the Solar System is still incomplete! I really ought to get my ass back in gear. I'm too young to sit-it-out. But I'm loving oil-painting... shoot. And target archery. And Rose gardening: in a blast-furnace! (Southern-Arizona). ;-) I've also named a slew of Main-Belt asteroids, including Haiku, and Samadhi; and, Wabi-Sabi. Plus 35 others. I wouldn't pull your beard, Bill!. ;-) I still have naming-rights on others yet un-named, because it was I who discovered them. I have hundreds MORE I could name, tomorrow. Nope! Can't bribe me to name one after you, or your sweetie. But someone in the past named an asteroid after Mister Spock, who was ...his CAT! The Committee no longer allows pets. Shucks... . Thanks, your comments! --Joe / (dangerous guy, with a 'scope) Bill! BillSmart@ wrote: Joe, Nice clip! And congratulations. Was the comet eventually named? If so what, Comet Montani? I think Comet Joe would be the best. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Joe desert_woodworker@ wrote: Merle, Nah! He had fun in his video, maybe. So did I in mine! We're even. Here's a snippet of me in mine at the Observatory. Maybe you've seen it, already. We did it only 17 years ago! Like last night... . For this Astronomer. Time is relative(ly inscrutable). http://www.nbcnews.com/video/space.com/10053358#10053358 Hail, the Friendly Skies! --Joe Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Craig Venter: Designing life |
Bill!, Hugh ain't the only one! --Joe PS (when comets are named, Discoverers have no choice. They are automatically named for us. Worse things could happen, I guess.) Bill! BillSmart@... wrote: Joe, I was gazing intently into the heavens one night and named a shooting star. I called it Wow! ...Bill! Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
