>
> I'm not familiar with what you mean by "being called". But it sounds
> disturbingly similar to some things I've heard from religious nuts like
> suicide bombers. In general, how is the call you are talking about to
> be distinguished by the person "being called" from the call the suicide
> bo
On Sun, 9 Feb 2003, Matt Grimaldi wrote:
> NPR _has_ and _does_ mention that the UN inspectors
> have been unable to interview any scientists alone,
> (and reporting the big news when they finally get *one*
> scientist to agree to be interviewed alone)
> as well as how any reporters out and about
Gautam Mukunda wrote:
>
> --- "Marvin Long, Jr." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > I don't, really. But several reports out of Iraq
> > that I've seen and heard
> > contain a notes about how the locals consider the
> > Iraqi exile community a
> > bunch of elitists who escaped when the going got
> >
J. van Baardwijk wrote:
> Why would post-war Iraq be the "first Iraqi republic"? Iraq is
*already* a republic.
It's like the old Eastern Block countries. The more they
called themselves "democratic" in the name of their country,
the less likely it was to actually *be* a democracy.
__
On Fri, Feb 07, 2003 at 02:04:39PM -0600, Dan Minette wrote:
> No hard feelings, but I think that your lack of familiarity with
> the concept of being called is evident here. Many people can be
> God's instrument. It depends on who answers the call. Ideally, many
> countries would answer. It a
On Fri, 7 Feb 2003, Dan Minette wrote:
> No hard feelings, but I think that your lack of familiarity with the
> concept of being called is evident here. Many people can be God's
> instrument. It depends on who answers the call. Ideally, many countries
> would answer. It appears that the world
At 04:17 PM 2/7/03 +0100, J. van Baardwijk wrote:
At 22:22 6-2-2003 -0500, John Giorgis wrote:
I would say that it certainly will be much greater, if just for the
difference in strategic reasons and the ready availability of oil
revenue to the first Iraqi republic to finance its own development.
- Original Message -
From: "Richard Baker" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, February 07, 2003 9:41 AM
Subject: Re: war and peace
> Gautam said:
>
> > 2. If Britain had peacefully left its colonies in,
> > say, 1910
- Original Message -
From: "Marvin Long, Jr." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, February 07, 2003 8:45 AM
Subject: Re: war and peace
> On Thu, 6 Feb 2003, Robert Seeberger wrote:
> re: white man's burden
>
> > I see thi
- Original Message -
From: "Marvin Long, Jr." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, February 07, 2003 12:36 PM
Subject: Re: war and peace
>
> What I hear coming through Bush is a belief on the part of the
> Republican leadership and hi
On Fri, 7 Feb 2003, Dan Minette wrote:
> Because that type of idealism is at the foundation of the US. Lincoln said
> the US was "the last, best hope of mankind."
>
> > Is manifest destiny the only language of idealism at hand?
>
> Why do you keep on using loaded terms that do not relate to th
- Original Message -
From: "Marvin Long, Jr." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, February 07, 2003 10:00 AM
Subject: Re: war and peace
>
> Knowing this, then, and knowing that Europeans are not an
undifferentiated
> mass of cynics,
Robert Seeberger wrote:
>
> - Original Message -
> From: "John D. Giorgis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Thursday, February 06, 2003 9:02 PM
> Subject: Re: war and peace
>
> > First, these arguments smell awful st
From: "Marvin Long, Jr." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: war and peace
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2003 10:07:51 -0600 (CST)
On Fri, 7 Feb 2003, Gautam Mukunda wrote:
> - the sentiments had a real
> and humane effect on large
From: "J. van Baardwijk" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: war and peace
Date: Fri, 07 Feb 2003 16:17:25 +0100
At 22:22 6-2-2003 -0500, John Giorgis wrote:
I would say that it certainly will be much greater, if just for t
On Fri, 7 Feb 2003, Gautam Mukunda wrote:
> He definitely felt it was the right thing to do.
> Kipling was the poet of Empire. Kipling's
> Recessional, though (probably my favorite Kipling
> poem) was a warning against Imperial hubris - it's
> probably the one poem every American should be
> req
On Fri, 7 Feb 2003, Gautam Mukunda wrote:
> Well, Bush's rhetoric is partly aimed at an American
> audience, and I think largely reflects his own
> feelings. Post-colonial powers may understand that.
> But the nations who used to be colonial powers will
> laugh at that because the cynicism of "O
--- Richard Baker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:> > 3. >
Air support for this battle was provided by
> Norwegian F-16s, the first
> time the Norwegian airforce has seen combat since
> WW2. So there's
> another European (but not, of course, EU) country
> projecting force
> across a substantial distance,
Gautam said:
> 2. If Britain had peacefully left its colonies in,
> say, 1910 or so, I think we would say that, on the
> whole, the British Empire did good for the world.
> They held on too long
I think it's not so much that they held on too long, but that they left
too suddenly. A more coherent
--- "Marvin Long, Jr." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Fri, 7 Feb 2003, Gautam Mukunda wrote:
> I would feel profoundly relieved; and if there's
> some embarrassment in
> that I won't mind. But I'm also trying to think
> beyond just Iraq. It
> seems to me that there are lots of post-colonial
> r
Gautam said:
> 3. We're doing more in Afghanistan than you seem to
> think we're doing. The Karzai government is still
> standing, after all, and we just fought a fairly major
> battle there to suppress one of the warlords.
Air support for this battle was provided by Norwegian F-16s, the first
t
- Original Message -
From: "J. van Baardwijk" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, February 07, 2003 9:17 AM
Subject: Re: war and peace
> At 22:22 6-2-2003 -0500, John Giorgis wrote:
>
> >I would say that it certainly wil
On Fri, 7 Feb 2003, J. van Baardwijk wrote:
> Why would post-war Iraq be the "first Iraqi republic"? Iraq is *already* a
> republic.
In name only.
Marvin Long
Austin, Texas
Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Poindexter & Ashcroft, LLP (Formerly the USA)
http://www.breakyourchains.org/john_poindexter.htm
On Fri, 7 Feb 2003, Gautam Mukunda wrote:
> As far as I can tell you're so caught up in the rush
> of condemning what they did that you're kind of
> missing what was really going on. No one's defending
> the Empire as an altruistic endeavor. The extent to
> which it _was_ conducted in a not-so-b
At 22:22 6-2-2003 -0500, John Giorgis wrote:
I would say that it certainly will be much greater, if just for the
difference in strategic reasons and the ready availability of oil
revenue to the first Iraqi republic to finance its own development.
Why would post-war Iraq be the "first Iraqi repu
--- "Marvin Long, Jr." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> To my (admittedly slight) knowledge Kipling was a
> critic of abusive
> colonial practices (and of what struck him as a
> naive American enthusiasm
> for colonialism in the Phillipines) but a supporter
> of the idea of a
> Christian colonial empi
--- "Marvin Long, Jr." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> "The White man's burden has been sung. Who will
> sing the Brown man's?"
>
> Mark Twain
>
>
> On Thu, 6 Feb 2003, Gautam Mukunda wrote:
> Of course not. Surely you don't expect anyone to
> believe that that was
> the goal of European colo
On Thu, 6 Feb 2003, Robert Seeberger wrote:
re: white man's burden
> I see this as a bitter diatribe against imperialism and not so much as a
> ralling cry for colonialism.
> Of course I am not a Kipling expert and my interpretation is only informed
> by my own experience writing poetry. I find th
On Thu, 6 Feb 2003, John D. Giorgis wrote:
> > Preemptive conquest and
> >nation-building looks a lot like colonialism to a lot of people,
> >especially the conquered.
>
> What evidence do you have of this? Does your statement here match what
> we know about the reactions of the people of
--- Dan Minette <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > To speculate that the Bush Administration would
> abandon Iraq is to
> > speculate that the Bush Administration is
> profoundly incompetent - and
> only
> > the most blinded of partisans do so.
>
> Will the nation building in Iraq be on the same
> sc
On Fri, 7 Feb 2003, Erik Reuter wrote:
> I consider the Bush administration a bunch of wealthy elitists who lived
> a charmed life, but I don't judge them on that but rather on what they
> do. Maybe the Iraqi people would do the same?
Anything's possible, I suppose. I'm not sure the parallel is
--- "Marvin Long, Jr." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I don't, really. But several reports out of Iraq
> that I've seen and heard
> contain a notes about how the locals consider the
> Iraqi exile community a
> bunch of elitists who escaped when the going got
> tough and who hope to
> lord it over t
On Fri, Feb 07, 2003 at 07:10:11AM -0500, Kevin Tarr wrote:
> Dan, you have to check the L-cap on your keyboard. The tax cut is
> widely focused on the Americans who pay the taxes.
Kevin, you have to check the supporting-data-cap on your keyboard. Your
comment is entirely uncredible.
--
"Erik
> At 03:20 PM 2/6/2003 -0600 Dan Minette wrote:
> >If that's true, why are they wasting a golden opportunity in Afganistan?
>
> I take exception to this.
>
> First, the rest of the world has hardly borne their full share of the
load
> in rebuilding Afghanistan,
You know better than to believe it
Marvin Long, Jr. wrote:
>
> I don't, really. But several reports out of Iraq
> that I've seen and heard contain a notes about how
> the locals consider the Iraqi exile community a
> bunch of elitists who escaped when the going got
> tough and who hope to lord it over the rest when
> they r
- Original Message -
From: "John D. Giorgis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, February 06, 2003 9:02 PM
Subject: Re: war and peace
> First, these arguments smell awful strongly of simply being a list-ditch
> effort of the peace
On Thu, Feb 06, 2003 at 08:40:24PM -0600, Marvin Long, Jr. wrote:
> I don't, really. But several reports out of Iraq that I've seen and
> heard contain a notes about how the locals consider the Iraqi exile
> community a bunch of elitists who escaped when the going got tough
> and who hope to lord
- Original Message -
From: "Marvin Long, Jr." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, February 06, 2003 7:29 PM
Subject: Re: war and peace
>
> "The White man's burden has been sung. Who will sing the Brown man's?"
At 10:02 PM 2/6/2003 -0500 John D. Giorgis wrote:
>Unlike, Mr. Friedman, I am not buying that the Bush Administraiton needs to
>lay open its post-occupational plans for Iraq right from the outset.
Indeed, I forgot the most important reason to not lay out these plans now.
At least one key ally and
- Original Message -
From: "John D. Giorgis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, February 06, 2003 9:19 PM
Subject: Re: war and peace
> At 03:20 PM 2/6/2003 -0600 Dan Minette wrote:
> >If that's true, why are they wasting a gol
At 04:29 PM 2/6/2003 -0600 Marvin Long, Jr. wrote:
>I'm mocking it because
No, your sig file provides all the evidence anyone needs of why you are
mocking it.
> Preemptive conquest and
>nation-building looks a lot like colonialism to a lot of people,
>especially the conquered.
What eviden
At 09:14 PM 2/6/2003 -0600 Dan Minette wrote:
>Will the nation building in Iraq be on the same scale as the nation
>building in Afganistan?
I would say that it certainly will be much greater, if just for the
difference in strategic reasons and the ready availability of oil revenue
to the first Ira
"John D. Giorgis" wrote:
> Additionally, much of the work is probably being performed not by soldiers,
> but by various charitable NGO's (with a good deal of official US support) -
> and thus this stuff is harder to take credit for.
Can you point me to a list of accomplishments so far, no matter
At 03:20 PM 2/6/2003 -0600 Dan Minette wrote:
>If that's true, why are they wasting a golden opportunity in Afganistan?
I take exception to this.
First, the rest of the world has hardly borne their full share of the load
in rebuilding Afghanistan, and the US is stretched thin by the need to
de
- Original Message -
From: "John D. Giorgis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, February 06, 2003 9:02 PM
Subject: Re: war and peace
>
> To speculate that the Bush Administration would abandon Iraq is to
> speculate that the Bu
At 11:06 AM 2/6/2003 -0800 Gautam Mukunda wrote:
>Hi Dan - sorry - if it wasn't clear, I was replying to
>Marvin, not you. I pretty much agree with what you're
>saying, except that from what I've heard, the Bush
>Administration has put a lot more thought into
>post-war Iraq than you're giving them
At 12:49 PM 2/6/2003 -0600 Julia Thompson wrote:
>I'm not entirely optimistic about how well that's going to work out.
>
>http://www.opinionjournal.com/editorial/feature.html?id=110002947
Julia, I think that it is important to keep in mind that this is simply an
opinion column that is presenting o
On Thu, 6 Feb 2003, Erik Reuter wrote:
>
> > 2. Install military government while making current Iraqi exiles a
> > local authority/advisory council (in spite of the fact that no one in
> > Iraq wants them).
>
> How do we know that most people in Iraq would hate a government
> organized by the I
On Thu, Feb 06, 2003 at 04:29:19PM -0600, Marvin Long, Jr. wrote:
> 2. Install military government while making current Iraqi exiles a
> local authority/advisory council (in spite of the fact that no one in
> Iraq wants them).
How do we know that most people in Iraq would hate a government
organ
"The White man's burden has been sung. Who will sing the Brown man's?"
Mark Twain
On Thu, 6 Feb 2003, Gautam Mukunda wrote:
>
> Apart from which, has anyone actually read "The White
> Man's Burden"? It was racist to modern ears -
> although not to those of his time, let's give Kipling
> some
On Thu, 6 Feb 2003, Dan Minette wrote:
> I'll agree that the main motivation is the perceived self interest of the
> United States. I'd also say that was the motivation for the Marshal Plan
> too. But, an argument could be made in both cases that the actions would
> benefit the people of the coun
- Original Message -
From: "Gautam Mukunda" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, February 06, 2003 1:06 PM
Subject: Re: war and peace
.
>
> Hi Dan - sorry - if it wasn't clear, I was replying to
> Marvin, not you.
Oh, that mak
--- Dan Minette <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Unless you
> > know of something the US can do that would be
> _better_
> > for the people of Iraq than toppling Saddam
> Hussein,
> > maybe you should be a little bit more sympathetic
> to
> > the President.
>
> Huh? My position is that I lean again
- Original Message -
From: "Gautam Mukunda" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, February 06, 2003 12:32 PM
Subject: Re: war and peace
Unless you
> know of something the US can do that would be _better_
> for the people of Iraq
Dan Minette wrote:
>
> - Original Message -
> From: "Marvin Long, Jr." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "BRIN-L Mailing list" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2003 11:56 PM
> Subject: war and peace
>
> > Plus some
&
--- Dan Minette <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > The closest the US/UK have come to achieving the
> former is Bush mumbling
> a
> > rehashed version of manifest destiny suggesting
> it's America's turn to
> > take up the 21st century version of the White
> Man's Burden.
>
> Why mock his view like t
- Original Message -
From: "Marvin Long, Jr." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "BRIN-L Mailing list" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2003 11:56 PM
Subject: war and peace
>
> A musing that occurs to me as I stay up past my bedtime.
>
&
A musing that occurs to me as I stay up past my bedtime.
One. Nobody has any moral credibility w/respect to acting in the
interests of the Iraqi people, which makes all moral posturing over the
issue highly suspect, no matter who does it. (Too many opporunities to
help the Iraqi people have
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