RE: [css-d] Class not extending full lenght

Michael Cassidy wrote: > I have a bar that I want to extend across the top of my page. > It works on all my pages except one; and on that one on my Mac's > browsers but not using Explorer in Windows. > > http://www.panix.com/~cassidy/test.html > > The bar across the top will extend if I just have

Re: [css-d] float not working

> You can see their implementation on the main page. Why in the world will the > left text not float?? I think you messed up the values of width, margin and padding a bit. Also, it's difficult to predict the width of the MainContenLeft if you set the padding in em, while the width itself is in p

Re: [css-d] pic float problem

Chris, On May 24, 2005, at 2:12 PM, Christopher Harris wrote: Dear Ms. Gillenwater or anyone who can help!, My page's URL is: http://www.steeloaklimited.com/houseplantrends/bgTest.html and the CSS file is: http://www.steeloaklimited.com/houseplantrends/bgTest.css . With the body as the

Re: [css-d] Customizing Mailman archives with CSS

At 10:55 PM 5/25/2005, Felix Miata wrote: Kelley wrote: > Has anyone ever stumbled across Mailman/Pipermail archives that have been > customized with CSS? > I scoured through posts at the Mailman-users lists to see if it was > possible--it seems to be--but I never saw an example of implementati

Re: [css-d] help - CSS styled divider in between items on a page not working properly

Hi Peter, I was thinking not to use as a divider because I am using an image as a background and for what I know IE and Opera show a border around the image. Is this correct? Is anyone aware of any workaround? Thanks, Luca On 25/05/2005, at 1:59 PM, Peter Williams wrote: It is actually

Re: [css-d] Customizing Mailman archives with CSS

Kelley wrote: > Has anyone ever stumbled across Mailman/Pipermail archives that have been > customized with CSS? > I scoured through posts at the Mailman-users lists to see if it was > possible--it seems to be--but I never saw an example of implementation. If > you've seen one, I'd appreciate p

Re: [css-d] First Post - IE 6.0 Trouble

Hi Graham, It works!!! Thank you. My next question - why? Barb S BITS LLC Cook, Graham R wrote: Add font-size:1px; to your #banner style Graham Cook __ css-discuss [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman

[css-d] First Post - IE 6.0 Trouble

Add font-size:1px; to your #banner style Graham Cook -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Barb @ BITS LLC Sent: Thursday, 26 May 2005 10:48 AM To: css-d@lists.css-discuss.org Subject: [css-d] First Post - IE 6.0 Trouble Hi - I'm working on e

Re: [css-d] First Post - IE 6.0 Trouble

Pactum web services wrote: Try sucking the HTML comments snug to the preceding and following code, and see if that makes a difference. Like so: tim Tim Gallant http://www.pactumgroup.com Basic tutorials: http://www.pactumgroup.com/tutorials/ Web dev FAQs: http://w

Re: [css-d] First Post - IE 6.0 Trouble

- Original Message - From: "Barb @ BITS LLC" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> I'm working on expanding my css knowledge and am trying to get my first full css site working. I'm having alignment issues in IE 6.0. If you look at the top of the page in IE 6.0 the top of the box graphic is separated f

[css-d] First Post - IE 6.0 Trouble

Hi - I'm working on expanding my css knowledge and am trying to get my first full css site working. I'm having alignment issues in IE 6.0. If you look at the top of the page in IE 6.0 the top of the box graphic is separated from the banner graphic with a gray line in between. Why is this a

[css-d] Customizing Mailman archives with CSS

Hi, Has anyone ever stumbled across Mailman/Pipermail archives that have been customized with CSS? I scoured through posts at the Mailman-users lists to see if it was possible--it seems to be--but I never saw an example of implementation. If you've seen one, I'd appreciate pointers. Thanks

Re: [css-d] float problem--repost

Jeanne Prine wrote: Hello, I'm reposting my question from a few days ago. Truly desperate now. Can anyone tell me why this works at 800 x 600 but breaks at 1024 X 768 in Firefox 1.04 and Netscape 6 unless the width of #inner is reduced to 80% (but then that breaks at 800 x 600)? What I want is

Re: [css-d] Best CSS Editor?

- Original Message - From: "Mickey Slater" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Have you ever noticed that this problem mostly occurs when you are editing a CSS or JS file that you didn't create from scratch? That's because dreamweaver adds its own little tags to first line of the file. For example. Fo

Re: [css-d] float problem--repost

Jeanne Prine wrote: Hello, I'm reposting my question from a few days ago. Truly desperate now. Can anyone tell me why this works at 800 x 600 but breaks at 1024 X 768 in Firefox 1.04 and Netscape 6 unless the width of #inner is reduced to 80% (but then that breaks at 800 x 600)? What I want is

Re: [css-d] floated divs that are centered to collapse them

Scott, give the inner div a specific width and define the left/right margins as auto: #innerdiv { width: 300px; //Percentage width could be used here as well margin: 0 auto; } - or - Do not define the width of the inner div but give it a percentage based left/right margin and a min-

RE: [css-d] Best CSS Editor?

Joanne. I was just having this problem today, and I think I found a fix. Have you ever noticed that this problem mostly occurs when you are editing a CSS or JS file that you didn't create from scratch? That's because dreamweaver adds its own little tags to first line of the file. For example

[css-d] float problem--repost

Hello, I'm reposting my question from a few days ago. Truly desperate now. Can anyone tell me why this works at 800 x 600 but breaks at 1024 X 768 in Firefox 1.04 and Netscape 6 unless the width of #inner is reduced to 80% (but then that breaks at 800 x 600)? What I want is for #navcontainer to

RE: [css-d] Best CSS Editor?

Slightly OT here, but related to editing stylesheets none the less. Funny you should mention Dreamweaver and CSS editing. I recently upgraded to Dreamweaver MX 2004 (from MX) and on a very regular basis, when I edit and/or save stylesheets in Dreamweaver, the screen flickers and the program shuts

[css-d] why doesn't this work in gecko browsers

I am trying to do a table border in CSS and my border shows up in IE (PC), but not Gecko. table.borders{/*used when creating a table w/ borders*/ border:1px solid #d3d3d3; border-collapse:collapse; padding:10px; } table td.borders {/*used when creating a td with borders*/ padding: .25em;

Re: [css-d] Floating and not wrapping images

In this instance I would define the margin on the paragraph/text elements so that it equals the width of the image (or the maximum width that images could be). On May 25, 2005, at 3:45 PM, Scott Haneda wrote: on 5/25/05 4:57 AM, Chris Ovenden at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This will stop your

[css-d] floated divs that are centered to collapse them

I have a div inside a div, the inner div becomes as wide as the outer div. I want it to wrap the contents of what is inside the inner div, but to do that, I have to float that inner div. I want the inner centered in the outer, is there a trick I can use to make this happen? -- ---

Re: [css-d] Floating and not wrapping images

on 5/25/05 4:57 AM, Chris Ovenden at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > This will stop your text from wrapping: > > .prodWrapper h1 { > clear:both > } That pushed the text down past the image, not what I want at all. If you look at the sameple link, the only thing I really want to change Is :\

Re: [css-d] disappearing border in firefox

Is there any url that explains about the problem that you described? >I was going to say, I don't see any difference when viewing in IE versus FF. >My only thought is that it might be a rounding error in the browser as it >computes the exact widths of all the table elements.

[css-d] Toggle visibility in Media=Print only...

Hi all, Can one dynamically toggle display of an element for the "media=print" stylesheet only? *clarification: I have a form that I never want to display an element on the screen, but depending on the value the user selects from a select box, it may/may not print. (it is an element that will no

[css-d] Class not extending full lenght

I have a bar that I want to extend across the top of my page. It works on all my pages except one; and on that one on my Mac's browsers but not using Explorer in Windows. The page is at: http://www.panix.com/~cassidy/test.html The bar across the top will extend if I just have a single baptism

Re: [css-d] Site Check Please

On Wed, 25 May 2005 23:43:06 -0400, Thomas Hall <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Please if any folks would be so kind; just give this site a quick glance over for me. http://www.point-reyes-online.com [..] Thomas M. Hall Dunno about the site map question. You're

Re: [css-d] CSS - Looking Down the Road....

Thomas Hall wrote: I am curious to pick the brains of some of you CSS gurus out there about something. Without going into too much detail, are there facets of CSS that are coming down the pipe in the not so distant future that "excite" you? What are some of the things we amateurs can look forward

Re: [css-d] Best CSS Editor?

This gets asked very frequently. There's a WIKI page with many good answers. http://css-discuss.incutio.com/?page=CssEditors -- Bob Easton __ css-discuss [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d List wi

RE: [css-d] disappearing border in firefox

> Funny thing is, when I uploaded into geocities, the screen displayed > correctly. Doesn't make any difference if I scroll it down/ > up -- on every > load, partial border changed randomly. I was going to say, I don't see any difference when viewing in IE versus FF. My only thought is that it

Re: [css-d] Best CSS Editor?

I use CSS Edit extension in FireFox. It is very interactive and good way to learn CSS quickly. On 5/25/05, Al Sparber <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > From: "jlfx intermedia, llc" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Howdy Gang, what's you're pick for the best CSS builder/editor? I > > know of > > Top Style an

Re: [css-d] Best CSS Editor?

From: "jlfx intermedia, llc" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Howdy Gang, what's you're pick for the best CSS builder/editor? I know of Top Style and was wondering if Dreamweaver compared in that area. If you know how to write CSS and are using DW MX2004, Code View is excellent and obviates the need to ha

[css-d] Best CSS Editor?

Howdy Gang, what's you're pick for the best CSS builder/editor? I know of Top Style and was wondering if Dreamweaver compared in that area. __ css-discuss [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d List w

[css-d] float not working

Hello: I am about to pull every last hair out of my head trying to get the FLOAT selector to work. My test site is here: www.test.systemworksva.com. I just had a developer convert it to .NET and XML and now I'm cleaning it up by replacing all the TABLE mess with CSS. The problem is getting w

[css-d] CSS - Looking Down the Road....

I am curious to pick the brains of some of you CSS gurus out there about something. Without going into too much detail, are there facets of CSS that are coming down the pipe in the not so distant future that "excite" you? What are some of the things we amateurs can look forward to? Just thought I'd

[css-d] Site Check Please

Please if any folks would be so kind; just give this site a quick glance over for me. http://www.point-reyes-online.com One thing that I can't quite figure out is why on non IE browsers I can't click on the Site Map link in the lower right corner. I ha

RE: [css-d] Form - Margin issues.

Jim - I think that div#search is your culprit. When I examine the doc with Colorzilla (0.8.2 has a great DOM inspector) or Aardvark, I see that that div is taller than the containing div#menubar (even in Firefox) and slips under div.firstpost. The bottom overlap is likely pushing inline elements do

Re: [css-d] Firefox :hover bug? (Update: Mac OS only)

Thank you all for your quick responses. Upon further invesigation, I've discovered this bug to be on Mac OS X-only, as I have received notice that the effect works fine on Windows XP, ME and Linux... and apparently only a more-recent version. Any help with pinning this down would be appreci

Re: [css-d] Form - Margin issues.

- Original Message - From: "Jim Jeffers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2005 11:48 AM Subject: [css-d] Form - Margin issues. The horizontal menu bar just above the featured article has a bottom margin that should not be there in IE. I feel that this is because of the

Re: [css-d] disappearing border in firefox

Funny thing is, when I uploaded into geocities, the screen displayed correctly. Doesn't make any difference if I scroll it down/ up -- on every load, partial border changed randomly. On 5/25/05, Zoe M. Gillenwater <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Scott Hamm wrote: > > >What might be the common c

Re: [css-d] disappearing border in firefox

Here it is: http://www.geocities.com/kss_koder/cosmetic_test.htm On 5/25/05, Pringle, Ron <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > What might be the common cause if borders partially > > disappeared in FF but > > not in IE? It is a simple table layout with two "rowspan=2" > > in the same row. > >

Re: [css-d] Different background image to each page

- Original Message - From: "Roger Roelofs" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "css-d css-d" Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2005 11:07 AM Subject: Re: [css-d] Different background image to each page Vicki & David, If you are an efficiency freak and keep the css smaller you can do it like this. div

RE: [css-d] disappearing border in firefox

> What might be the common cause if borders partially > disappeared in FF but > not in IE? It is a simple table layout with two "rowspan=2" > in the same row. Scott- Do you have a page we can look at? What borders are disappearing? The table border, table cell borders? Regards, Ron __

Re: [css-d] Firefox :hover bug?

I'm having trouble isolating/working around a seeming :hover bug in Firefox. If you look at my site's navigation bar[1], the "tabs" disappear when you hover over the list. Just FYI, it works fine for me with linux/mozilla 1.7.5, OS X/moz 1.6, OS X/FF 1.0.4 ___

[css-d] Form - Margin issues.

Hello folks, I'm working on the CSS for a new site we're launching. In Firefox and Safari the layout looks fine but in IE I'm having a problem with the menu bar at the top of the page. Try taking a look at the site in FireFox to see how it should look and then open it up in IE: http://www

Re: [css-d] disappearing border in firefox

Scott Hamm wrote: What might be the common cause if borders partially disappeared in FF but not in IE? It is a simple table layout with two "rowspan=2" in the same row. Hard to tell without code or a page to look at. Does the border come back if you scroll the area off the page and then u

[css-d] disappearing border in firefox

What might be the common cause if borders partially disappeared in FF but not in IE? It is a simple table layout with two "rowspan=2" in the same row. -- Power to people, Linux is here. __ css-discuss [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://

Re: [css-d] Firefox :hover bug?

On 5/25/05, Ryan Cannon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I'm having trouble isolating/working around a seeming :hover bug in > Firefox. If you look at my site's navigation bar[1], the "tabs" > disappear when you hover over the list. The stylesheet is essentially > as follows: > > ... li:first-child {

Re: [css-d] Different background image to each page

Vicki & David, On May 25, 2005, at 2:19 AM, David Laakso wrote: On Tue, 24 May 2005 23:59:21 -0400, Vicki Skinner (Stebbins) <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Hi, I've got (I think) a quick question: I'm trying to show a different background image to each page of a website. What I meant is:

RE: [css-d] Text Underline not showing up

> I don't seem to be able to get the .bodytext dotted underline > (line 42) to > show up in the text. > > > > http://www.computerrecycling.us/ebay.htm > > > > Interestingly, the .generalul (see > http://www.computerrecycling.us/map.htm) > is showing a dotted underline. > Any help would

Re: [css-d] IE 5.0 and 5.5 hacks

anthony croshaw wrote: Hi guys, I have come up against my first ie5 nightmares, do any of you know some good sites that explain the various hacks in plain English? I know a few already, like the body {text-align:center;} one for 5.5, but really I need to know more. From what I understand after re

[css-d] Guillotine Bug

Okay everyone, Thanks for your help in identifying my nasty problem. It IS in fact the guillotine bug. It was caused by the picture I had inserted into my blog which was marked float:left. As soon as I removed the float:left it was fixed. My only problem is that I have no idea how to ac

Re: [css-d] Re: CSS list numbering - non-contiguous lists in XHTM L 1.1

David Balch wrote: FYI, I've found a thread on www-html discussing this concept - for XHTML2. Maybe in 5 years or so I'll be able to do what I'm after... http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-html/2004Mar/0082.html Guess I'm as practical/pragmatic as Ingo on this, but no matter how I read t

Re: [css-d] Parts of my web page disappear in IE

Frank Caico wrote: Under IE, if I mouse around the page and mouse over a link, sometimes sections of the page will disappear! FireFox doesn't seem to have this problem. Here is the appropriate URL: http://bigfrank.aspfreeserver.com Sounds like the Gu

[css-d] Text Underline not showing up

I don't seem to be able to get the .bodytext dotted underline (line 42) to show up in the text. http://www.computerrecycling.us/ebay.htm Interestingly, the .generalul (see http://www.computerrecycling.us/map.htm) is showing a dotted underline. Any help would be appreciated - Frank

RE: [css-d] Parts of my web page disappear in IE

Could you be more specific? I am not familiar with using z-indexes... Frank -Original Message- From: Glenn Court [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2005 11:42 AM To: Frank Caico Subject: Re: [css-d] Parts of my web page disappear in IE z-indexes might help? From Frank C

RE: [css-d] sliding doors and bottom margin/padding?

Remove the whitespace from between the e.g.: .. and so on or you can comment out the space: .. -Nigel -Original Message- I'm using A List Apart's Sliding Doors technique for my navigation, but I'm having trouble in ie6 where there is a gap below the navigation. It works fin

[css-d] Parts of my web page disappear in IE

I just put together a dasBlog blog page and got it customized to my liking. Unfortunately there is one weird behavior that I can neither explain, nor fix. Under IE, if I mouse around the page and mouse over a link, sometimes sections of the page will disappear! FireFox doesn't seem to have t

Re: [css-d] Floating and not wrapping images

Scott Haneda wrote: I have been at this too long, I just need a solution :-( I can not have the body copy text wrapping around the image, I more or less want 2 columns, and do not want to resort to a table, though I am about to, as 4 hours to get this

[css-d] Firefox :hover bug?

I'm having trouble isolating/working around a seeming :hover bug in Firefox. If you look at my site's navigation bar[1], the "tabs" disappear when you hover over the list. The stylesheet is essentially as follows: ... li:first-child { background-position: 0px 0px; width: 28px } ... li:firs

[css-d] vertical-align property

I'm having a problem getting a img to line up properly vertically. A screen shot of the image can be found at http://whiteboxerdesign.com/test/nav1.jpg. In a nutshell: I'm using to create a horizontal navigation scheme. I want to bracket the list with images with rounded corners. The background

[css-d] sliding doors and bottom margin/padding?

I'm using A List Apart's Sliding Doors technique for my navigation, but I'm having trouble in ie6 where there is a gap below the navigation. It works fine in Firefox and Safari. http://www.saturnflyer.com/insinga/ Does anyone have experience with getting the content below a sliding doors nav

[css-d] IE 5.0 and 5.5 hacks

Hi guys, I have come up against my first ie5 nightmares, do any of you know some good sites that explain the various hacks in plain English? I know a few already, like the body {text-align:center;} one for 5.5, but really I need to know more. From what I understand after reading some articles by Er

Re: [css-d] Strange behaviour in Mac browsers

Its working well on my MACs in both Safari and Explorer. On May 25, 2005, at 3:15 AM, Philippe Wittenbergh wrote: On 25 May 2005, at 3:57 pm, Michael Palmer wrote: http://www.stroke7.com/hayleysparks/sample.htm css: http://www.stroke7.com/hayleysparks/s.css It's a different story on Mac wi

Re: [css-d] Floating and not wrapping images

On 5/25/05, Scott Haneda <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > I have been at this too long, I just need a solution :-( > > I can not have the body copy text wrapping around the image, I more or less > want 2 columns, and do not want to resort to a table, though

RE: [css-d] Re: CSS list numbering - non-contiguous lists in XHTM L 1.1

Hi, FYI, I've found a thread on www-html discussing this concept - for XHTML2. Maybe in 5 years or so I'll be able to do what I'm after... http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-html/2004Mar/0082.html Cheers, Dave. -- David Balch. | Web developer. T: +44 (0)1865 280979 | Technology-As

Re: [css-d] Inheritance and computed value question

On Tue, 24 May 2005 15:53:39 +0800, Ingo Chao <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: I find your question and your interpretation reasonable, but cannot answer. Thanks for replying. I'll assume the lack of disagreement :) roughly equates to agreement, so I'll report my findings as bugs to the various

RE: [css-d] IE6/Opera Images Underline Problem

Holly, Your suggestion did remove the underlines from the images and navigation, however the .bodytext dotted underline is not showing up. http://www.computerrecycling.us/ebay.htm Interestingly, the .generalul (see http://www.computerrecycling.us/map.htm) is keeping its dotted underline. Though

[css-d] Floating and not wrapping images

I have been at this too long, I just need a solution :-( I can not have the body copy text wrapping around the image, I more or less want 2 columns, and do not want to resort to a table, though I am about to, as 4 hours to get this far and 5 minutes with

RE: [css-d] Re: valid xhtml

Hi, > From: David Dorward [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: 25 May 2005 10:28 > > On 5/25/05, Muammar Kris Khaira <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > On May 24, 2005, at 2:18 AM, Arnie Shafer wrote: > > > Change to: Note the space between "r" and "/". > > > The space between r and / is not required

RE: Re: [css-d] CSS list numbering - non-contiguous lists in XHTM L 1.1

Hi BJ, > -Original Message- > From: BJ [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: 25 May 2005 00:04 > > Though it would be VERY tricky to do, and involve some > positioning wizardry, I think this could be done by creating > a bottom margin on the #3 list item using a class, and > leaving eno

Fwd: [css-d] valid xhtml

theoretically you can also use "" for break line or for images, etc... On 5/23/05, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > is this a valid xhtml? > > > abc abc > > abc abc > abc abc > > > __ css-discuss [EMAIL PRO

Re: [css-d] Strange behaviour in Mac browsers

I just got rid of the purple line in Firefox, I just added a text-decoration:none rule to the needed anchor. However, the other problem with Mac IE is still there. Do you think it might have something to do with using the "Sprites" method of background rollovers? Cheers, Mike __

Re: [css-d] Strange behaviour in Mac browsers

Hi Philippe, Thanks for the help, however it seems that one problem begets another. After changing the rules where I had mixed the keywords and length values, Firefox in Windows decides to put an unexplainable purple line under the nav bar. Does anyone know what that's about? Safari works now!

RE: [css-d] CSS list numbering - non-contiguous lists in XHTML 1. 1

Hi Michael, > -Original Message- > From: Michael Wilson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: 24 May 2005 18:16 > In contrast, one argument in favor of block-level content > within list items may be that just because something is a > list item doesn't necessarily mean that it doesn't war

[css-d] Re: valid xhtml

On 5/25/05, Muammar Kris Khaira <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On May 24, 2005, at 2:18 AM, Arnie Shafer wrote: > > Change to: Note the space between "r" and "/". > The space between r and / is not required. It is if you want to conform to Appendix C, and if you don't conform to Appendix C then th

RE: [css-d] CSS list numbering - non-contiguous lists in XHTML 1. 1

Hi Rowan > -Original Message- > From: Rowan @ Jetboy [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > "Conceptually one doesn't find paragraphs in lists - only > list-items. One could argue that something that isn't a > list-item within a list should be treated as if it weren't in > the list, regards fo

Re: [css-d] valid xhtml

The space between r and / is not required. On May 24, 2005, at 2:18 AM, Arnie Shafer wrote: Change to: Note the space between "r" and "/". __ css-discuss [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d Li

Re: [css-d] Strange behaviour in Mac browsers

On 25 May 2005, at 3:57 pm, Michael Palmer wrote: http://www.stroke7.com/hayleysparks/sample.htm css: http://www.stroke7.com/hayleysparks/s.css It's a different story on Mac with IE and Safari. Both are reacting differently (and badly) to the menu / rollover. In Safari, one of the menu item

[css-d] Strange behaviour in Mac browsers

G'day, I have a page whose menu uses the "Sprites" rollover method that works fine in IE5.01, IE 5.5, IE6 and Firefox 1.0.4 (all Windows). http://www.stroke7.com/hayleysparks/sample.htm css: http://www.stroke7.com/hayleysparks/s.css It's a different story on Mac with IE and Safari. Both are r