I have not been able to read all your post as I don't have time (helpful
hint: you might find that more concise and considered posts get a better
quality of reply). However, I think the way Various Artists is
implemented in SC is odd, even eccentric especially in relation to the
List compilation
yep, i'm not shakespeare. ;)
here it is concisely:
i think the VA logic is totally useless.
i think it is useful for SC7 to be able to tell what albums are
"compilation" albums.
therefore, i think the VA logic should be abolished, b/c it will never
work properly, and compilations should be id
The "Forum tools" and "Search this forum" buttons will open if you pass
your mouse (no clicking) over them once you have clicked on the top bar
search "Search".
This is very annoying if window is not full width - try the following.
1. With Forum window about 1/2 screen wide. Select a Forum to d
Robin D;299186 Wrote:
>
> - Not clear in the instructions - I needed to do a factory reset, with
> the ethernet cable inserted BEFORE resettingn the controller. The
> Ethernet/Hybrid options were then available
>
> Robin
Why was that nessesary ? Did you get an replacement for both receiver
an C
It was in the cradle the whole time.
I'm thinking the time it stopped may have co-incided with the time I
shut down the SC on my laptop. Would a connection to SC be required for
the clock?
--
jaffacake
jaffacake's Profile
bpa;299196 Wrote:
> The "Forum tools" and "Search this forum" buttons will open if you pass
> your mouse (no clicking) over them once you have clicked on the top bar
> search "Search".
>
> This is very annoying if window is not full width - try the following.
> 1. With Forum window about 1/2 s
I had the whole set replaced. I read somewhere (on the forum) that if
the Reciever is not re-set first, the Controller does not recognise
fully and the options are limited (my interpretation from memory).
As long as the Controller isn't failing to update through the wireless
network, don't worry
> I have not been able to read all your post as I don't have time (helpful
> hint: you might find that more concise and considered posts get a better
> quality of reply).
Thanks :-).
> Neither option works for me. To compound this there seems to be some
> problem with the Varuious Artists databas
> yep, i'm not shakespeare. ;)
But even Mr. Sinatra was known for well composed lyrics.
Michael
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Positioning is one part of the problem but search boxes shouldn't open
just because you go over (no clicking) the button - that behaviour is
OK for menus but not buttons.
--
bpa
bpa's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com
known for SINGING them. ;)
gosh, its still english people, i mean ok, its long but it is legible.
by MCs request, i have since put in a concise second post mherger, what
do you think of it?
(if you want my rationale i'm afraid you'll have to slog thru the first
post. not all ideas can be conv
bpa;299206 Wrote:
> Positioning is one part of the problem but search boxes shouldn't open
> just because you go over (no clicking) the button - that behaviour is
> OK for menus but not buttons.
What browser? I'm not seeing that behavior in either Firefox 2 or IE6.
But once you click on any of
Firefox 2.
The button bar is only available when you are NOT logged in.
>
> But once you click on any of the forum links that cause a popup box to
> appear, then the mouse remains active and mousing over any of the other
> similar links with boxes will cause one to close and another to open.
>
bpa;299220 Wrote:
> The button bar is only available when you are NOT logged in.
What are you call the "button bar"? I just get a slightly different
set of links (such as 'Register') when not logged in. Search is there
in both instances.
> I didn't have this problem before perhaps the box pos
> what am i missing? when is the VA logic useful? wouldn't it be better to
> retire this function by turning it off by default, and only having users
> turn it on by opt in if they feel they need it?
Many tagging systems have no way to both positively and negatively
assert when an album is a comp
>
> What are you call the "button bar"? I just get a slightly different set
> of links (such as 'Register') when not logged in. Search is there in
> both instances.
>
Correct - the Search button is immediately above "Forum Tools" and
"Search This Forum".
When you click "Search" the Search text
JJZolx;299230 Wrote:
> Many tagging systems have no way to both positively and negatively
> assert when an album is a compilation. ITunes, for instance, only sets
> its id3v2 TCMP frame to 1 when an album is a compilation, but it deletes
> the frame when not. This isn't the same as saying it's
> I posted a a cry for help in the ripping/tagging subforum. Please have
> look if you think you can help me:
As someone mentioned over in the other thread, iTunes artwork cannot (and
has never been) read. Did you use iTunesUpdater plugin on SS6?
Please set logging for artwork to debug (Setting
> I posted a a cry for help in the ripping/tagging subforum. Please have
> look if you think you can help me:
And please give us some information about your setup: disks, operating
system, where your music is etc.
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japsa1974;299150 Wrote:
> Ladies and Gentlemen,
>
> I have just been told that I will have my Duet in my hot little hand by
> this Friday I will keep you posted
>
> Cheers
Had confirmation they should be with the distributor on Thursday. Heh,
I won't be here anyhow.
--
egd
Internet f
Hello,
I posted a a cry for help in the ripping/tagging subforum. Please have
look if you think you can help me:
http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?p=299233&posted=1#post299233
Thanks and regards,
Svein-Helge Lea
--
shlea
Driving me mad today, the forum are virtually unusable. All the menu's
like Quick Link and search appear way bellow where they should be and
disappear when i move the cursor towards them.
--
autopilot
*SlimServer:* 7.0.1 (Windows XP)
*Players:* Squeezebox 3 (main room) / Squeezebox Receiver (b
egd;299237 Wrote:
> To my way of thinking I'd prefer to have to explicitly tag an album as
> being a compilation, with the inference being that if there is no
> compilation=1 tag, don't list the damned thing under VA.
It sounds like this shouldn't be so tricky...
With another option under settin
Great extension - very handy when you have music playing and the remote
out of range. I have come across a weird and somewhat annoying bug,
though:
When I have this extension installed, I get a very long delay when
opening popup windows - sometimes it takes 15 seconds from the time I
click the li
This needs more testing.
The problem with the search boxes and then the changes when editing
posts (Submit seems to do nothing) should have been tested properly on
a beta site not live.
This testing on a live site coupled with the dropping of the old Wiki
pages with attachments such as Wikirad
> After installing the latest version of Mcafee Security Center software
> on my Windows XP desktop I have been unable to get SqeezeCenter to
> work.
This very likely is either a port conflict with McAfee Backup - shut the latter
down if you don't use it. Otherwise stop it temporarily, change the
Or ditch McAfee and get some good software instead ;)
--
funkstar
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View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=47291
___
Hi again,
I'm sorry, but I am not quite sure about the iTunesUpdater plugin. I
think I used that in my previous setup, but I have not activated that
for my new setup. Will that take care of the art? The funny thing is
that SqC 7 in fact finds the art if I open the albun info in SqC. But
not unti
I'm not sure how to put this so it isn't taken as bashing, etc., but
when I purchased my Duet what I expected of the Duet wasn't any more or
any less of what I would have expected of a CD player. I expected to
set it up, follow the instructions and play music. I thought the
biggest issue would b
Howard Passman;299259 Wrote:
> I think it a poor showing of Logitech to release a product that is
> obviously lacking complete development and to then rely on a forum to
> cover their tech support duties.
>
The Duet beta testing was pretty extensive, so it's not like they
didn't try. As a test
Of your threads, the only ones not to have received a reply are the ones
re the XM plugin. I presume this is not critical to your purchase and
use - there are plenty of other ways of getting internet radio.
Unfortunately when you ask something so specific you exclude a lot of
people (myself incl
Skunk;299265 Wrote:
> The r2049 firmware, or whatever comes with 7.0, wasn't that great, and I
> did notice big improvements after upgrading to 7.0.1.
Interesting. I am running 7.0 with r2097, and it seems pretty stable to
me.
Back to the OP's concerns. It strikes me that the extremely flexible
Howard Passman;299259 Wrote:
> I think it a poor showing of Logitech to release a product that is
> obviously lacking complete development and to then rely on a forum to
> cover their tech support duties.
>
This seems like a common misconception. This forum is not an official
tech support chann
> [ ] Automagically sort compilations under Various Artists
>
> Keep it simple... right?
Define "Automagically" and you'll think twice about the simplicity of this
"solution".
--
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Not sure to be honest, I wouldn't have thought so.
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radish
radish's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=77
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=47229
I am running SqueezeCenter on a Synology DiskStation (107+), and I have
set it to rescan my music library every night at 3 AM, but it doesn't
seem to happen.
Should this not be possible?
--
Pokersut
Pokersut's Profile: ht
aubuti;299282 Wrote:
> Yes, it needs to be connected to either SC or SqueezeNetwork. It's a
> slim device, meaning that on its own, it's so dumb that it doesn't even
> know the time of day. If you routinely shut down SC but still want the
> clock, get in the habit of switching over to Squeezenetw
Sorry, I mistakenly answered a different question from what you asked.
It's the Squeezeboxes that are slim devices, and yes, the SBC is indeed
a small computer running linux. Whether or not it has it's own clock, I
don't honestly know. Sorry for the misinformation. And stop calling me
Shirley ;o)
The loading speed of the forums has taken a big dive for me. One of the
things I noticed was pages are scrolling automatically while the
extended load time is happening, which seems odd on a text-only
thread.
I suspect it's because vBulletin has been swallowed by the CMS, and
think the forum woul
I think SlimServer/SqueezeCenter makes a good job of guessing when
albums are compilations. Or at least it used to; just recently a
change was made in SC 7.1 that affected the logic, which for me at
least seemed to make things worse.
I had to set COMPILATION=1 for all songs on all compilation al
> I'm sorry, but I am not quite sure about the iTunesUpdater plugin. I
> think I used that in my previous setup, but I have not activated that
> for my new setup. Will that take care of the art?
Yes.
> The funny thing is
> that SqC 7 in fact finds the art if I open the albun info in SqC. But
> no
>when I purchased my Duet what I expected of the Duet wasn't any more or
any less of what I would have expected of a CD player<
IMHO, then you were misled/overly optimistic. Network streaming is in
'early adopter' build-out phase, by going for a NAS too you're in a
niche within a niche.
Sounds l
radish;299274 Wrote:
> This seems like a common misconception. This forum is not an official
> tech support channel, and Logitech are not relying on it to replace
> support. If you have a problem feel free to post it here and we'll do
> our best to help but for those trickier issues there's a who
jaffacake;299199 Wrote:
> It was in the cradle the whole time.
>
> I'm thinking the time it stopped may have co-incided with the time I
> shut down the SC on my laptop. Would a connection to SC be required for
> the clock?
Yes, it needs to be connected to either SC or SqueezeNetwork. It's a
slim
I have EXACTLY he same problems with SC7 - Start track, noise, track
stops, rebuffer, track continues fine. Also, my 2 players go out of
sync and, if I start up SoftSqueeze on my Mac, the whole thing STOPs
after about 5 tracks.
I will try disabling plugins but I'm not hopeful about this.
These s
@Howard Passman:
i understand you, and in germany is the problem i little bit bigger. I
must
additional translate the forum-threads (the number of German threads is
still low). a herman handbook is not available. and a technical englich
is heavy.
duet is sharp, but that many small fl
To address a few comments about my post. I did update to 7.0.1 last
night and I can't say how stable it is, but it does seem faster. I now
have a weird error when I go to favorites on my controller so it's back
to reading the forum for a hint as to why.
The XM plug-in would be my second most vau
I have had the Duet now for about 6 weeks and have gone through every
machination that I could think of to get it to work. Although it
connected to my wireless network out of the box, the connection was
unstable and I could only stream MP3 files during the limited time that
it was on.
After buy
I've been struggling with my SB2 for years. I love it when it works but
it is not user friendly. The same as most computer technology. It will
crash. It will just not work. It will drive you crazy. More than once
I've dumped it in frustration.
This is a tech toy. I wish they would sell it as such
I'm by no means a techie; however, I have been doing computer things
for a long time (my original PC came with 768kb of RAM, each little
individual chip plugged directly into the motherboard). I have some
degree of comfort with computer fiddling, but my patience has gone way
down of late. I pre
I've had very few real problems with my SB1, SB2, SB3, SBC, or SBR. I've
had minor issues, which the forums usually clear up quickly. On the other
hand, I wouldn't recommend this product to someone completely uncomfortable
with computers -- my mother, for example. I haven't had to do any extreme
Unfortunately *part* of my job is to keep our network and 300+ devices
operating. I keep things very simple here so I don't have to
constantly tweak everything. I totally agree with the "Appliance"
analogy and have said it many times using a "toaster" as a model.
I've been in retail all of my l
chrislayeruk;299060 Wrote:
> Ron, are you looking for somthing like this.
>
> http://www.ripfactory.com/ripserverfaq.html
>
> Cheers,Chris :)
Hmm. Doesn't look to me like it can have SC installed on it, so some
computer on the network would have to be running. Unless I'm missing
something,
regalma1;299332 Wrote:
>
> The same as most computer technology. It will crash. It will just not
> work. It will drive you crazy. More than once I've dumped it in
> frustration.
>
> This is a tech toy. I wish they would sell it as such. It is not
> everybody's music source. Not yet, maybe somed
You have some pretty natural requirements there, but I feel you're going
to have to prioritise them a little to make it easier to make a
decision.
For example, a device that uses less electricity is going to have a
smaller power supply because, ultimately, it's a less powerful piece of
kit.
A lo
Ya know in a way Regalma1 is actually right. If it has a processor,
firmware and software, it is prone to these types of issues. I thought
it was really amusing when I bought an HD DVD player (yeah, that was me)
and realized I had to wait for it to reboot if I shut it off. Then that
made me thin
Yeah, I've never had the sorts of problems described here personally.
On Tue, May 6, 2008 at 11:07 AM, bhaagensen <
[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> regalma1;299332 Wrote:
> >
> > The same as most computer technology. It will crash. It will just not
> > work. It will drive you crazy. More than once
i think we've gotten off track here...
YES, it IS worthwhile for SC7 to know what is, and what is not a
compilation. i think everyone agrees with that.
NO, it IS NOT working to use the "Various Artists Logic" to do so.
THE PROBLEM IS THE VA LOGIC DOES NOT IDENTIFY VA ALBUMS. ALL IT DOES
IS ID
ModelCitizen;299189 Wrote:
> I'm surprised by this, mainly as I assumed that if the compilation tag
> was not completed then the default setting waould be COMPILATION=0.
> Anyway, it doesn't sound as if this is ideal either, as in Album view,
> albums would be listed by AlbumArtist, and I'd prefe
Howard Passman;299329 Wrote:
> To address a few comments about my post. I did update to 7.0.1 last
> night and I can't say how stable it is, but it does seem faster. I now
> have a weird error when I go to favorites on my controller so it's back
> to reading the forum for a hint as to why.
>
>
I think the comparison to cameras is a bit unfair to Slim Devices. In the
case of a camera they have fixed hardware, don't have to support third party
plugins, and don't add features on an ongoing basis like Slim Devices does.
SqueezeCenter works on Windows, Mac, Linux, etc, including multiple OS
Quoting Howard Passman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> on Tue, May 06 09:36:
>
> I like to quiz folks about all the new technology with this question.
> If your home appliances like your refrigerator or stove had to be
> rebooted anywhere from occassionally to constantly, would you keep it
> or throw it out t
I just want to respond to the post about not recommending our products
to your mother. The solution for non-computer people is to use
SqueezeNetwork.You don't have to know anything about computers, it
just works and we take care of all the server-side stuff. My parents
are SN-only users and
For me (trying to be dispassionate) the hardest nut to crack is that the
SB/Duet needs a "computer" and a "network" - be it a NAS, Mac, wi-fi,
ethernet cable/switch or whatever. These things are just NOT appliances
in the accepted sense of the term. Well OK a switch or cable might be,
since it has
> Philip Meyer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> I had to set COMPILATION=1 for all songs on all compilation albums in
> SC7.1 to get my library to work the same as 7.0.1. I'm not sure what
> was changed to cause that. Michael Herger I think did the change, so
> perhaps he can explain more.
Tha
ModelCitizen;299099 Wrote:
> Me? Or Phil?
>
> For my part, I am lost I'm afraid. It looks me that I do not view/list
> music the way you do... and also not in the way Phil or Erland do.
> FYI it's Classical music that gave me the biggest problem.. just due to
> the fact that there are a lot more
Phil Leigh wrote:
> For me (trying to be dispassionate) the hardest nut to crack is that the
> SB/Duet needs a "computer" and a "network" - be it a NAS, Mac, wi-fi,
> ethernet cable/switch or whatever. These things are just NOT appliances
> in the accepted sense of the term.
And a lot of folk are
I may be as old as your mother :-), but as you may have gathered by now
I am lazy when listening to music. I really like the idea of just
sitting there, picking out songs and adding them to my playlist.
That's why I bought the DUET to begin with.
I mentioned that it may have been a mistake to p
slimkid;299346 Wrote:
> Yap, that was a big surprise for me too. There are threee discrete
> states here, COMP=0, COMP=1 and no COMP at all. Now, cross it with
> other possibilities (single artist, multiple artists, single disc,
> multiple discs, band, no band ) you get the idea. Not all scen
Howard Passman;299362 Wrote:
> I may be as old as your mother :-), but as you may have gathered by now
> I am lazy when listening to music. I really like the idea of just
> sitting there, picking out songs and adding them to my playlist.
> That's why I bought the DUET to begin with.
>
> I ment
Finally, a bit of this debate that I can comment on! Have been reading
the many (many) threads on this subject with some interest. Various
Artist/Compilation behaviour is pretty important to me in one sense,
because approx 80% of my music are compilation albums (electronic
music). However, in a
Same here. If SqueezeCenter goes to sleep the clock on the Controller
will stop some time later (only the screensaver).
If you pick up the controller it shows the correct time.
(both 7.0 r1097 and 7.0.1 r2287 are affected)
Is there already an open bug on this issue?
--
kunze
--
I must admit I'm having trouble following this. I've always had any
albums I wanted treated as "Various Artists" in sub folders of a folder
called "Various Artists" and this has always worked superbly for me.
I don't use all these fancy tags (album artist etc...) maybe I'm just
weird?
The VA album
Phil Leigh;299354 Wrote:
>
> The SB family is streets ahead in terms of functionality, but the
> trade-off is you do need to be a bit of a techno-whiz to get it all
> working and keep it that way.
Unfortunately that's the way in today's technology world.
Howard, I'm probably as old as you an
I really, really, love my Mackie HR828s. They cost a bit over a grand,
but the sound is wonderful.
They are also fairly ugly, they are designed for recording studio, so
they are black. No nice wood finish.
They might be over your budget, but as mentioned up thread, you should
take an iPod to Gui
Phil Leigh;299371 Wrote:
> I must admit I'm having trouble following this. I've always had any
> albums I wanted treated as "Various Artists" in sub folders of a folder
> called "Various Artists" and this has always worked superbly for me.
> I don't use all these fancy tags (album artist etc...)
Phil Leigh;299371 Wrote:
> I must admit I'm having trouble following this. I've always had any
> albums I wanted treated as "Various Artists" in sub folders of a folder
> called "Various Artists" and this has always worked superbly for me.
> I don't use all these fancy tags (album artist etc...)
iPhone;298796 Wrote:
> I prefer to build my own servers because I control the parts and cost.
> And because I built it, I can service it if need be.
I'd be interested in seeing your specs for the ones you've built. I've
been struggling to find the right server solution myself. I do have
expans
Yep, yep, yep. I love music. I've been playing and listening since
about 1965. One thing I don't miss is vinyl. Once CD players started
sounding pretty fair, I've been hooked. The Duet was just the next step
for me.
I would love it if every time I sat down I could depend on the DUET to
work.
grrman wrote:
> I'd be interested in seeing your specs for the ones you've built.
I built mine out of a left over PC that my kid rejected. Its an AMD
2000+ CPU, one GB of ram, had a built in nic and video card. Tower case,
have three IDE drives and one SATA. For some reason, it has a Promise
MrSinatra;299391 Wrote:
> as far as i know, what folder its in or what the folder is called
> doesn't matter at all. i don't think SC7 uses folder names in any way
> to decide if an album is VA or not. i could very well be 100% wrong on
> this, (not the first time) but as i write this, i don't
grrman;299388 Wrote:
> I'd be interested in seeing your specs for the ones you've built. I've
> been struggling to find the right server solution myself. I do have
> expansion and flexibility in mind. Would like a server with a DVD so I
> can eventually rip DVDs to stream as well as music. Cu
jaffacake;299340 Wrote:
> One low power option you could go for might be a cheap laptop with a big
> external USB drive on it for storage. It would be near silent and use
> much less juice than an equivalent desktop.
In fact, that is one thing I'm looking at. My work has an old IBM R51,
quite a
Howard Passman wrote:
> I would love it if every time I sat down I could depend on the DUET to
> work.
I have just sat down and listened for ages. I started with an SB1
(pre-G) and have bought three SqueezeBoxen, a Transporter and a Duet.
It just works. I listen to Radio IO sometimes, mostly my
My point with the cameras was not that they are not complex, but that the
hardware, firmware, and software are all made by the same company. The
number of variables they need to control for are significantly smaller. And
I may be way offbase, but it was not my understanding that camera companies
RonM wrote:
> Not sure why a ripping device on a server is an advantage -- if I'm
> using another computer on the network with this capacity, I'd be
> inclined to just rip on that computer, but rip it to a drive on the
> server.
My squeezeCenter and before it slimserver has always had a CD reader,
Hi!
I just switched from Zonealarm to AVG security suite. had problems with
AlienBBC wiith Zonealarm, but I'm afraid I still have the same problems
with AVG. Anyone else experienced that? Can't get AlienBBC to play
anything.
Zevs
--
Zevs
---
Howard Passman;299362 Wrote:
> Mitch may be surprised to see what the new DSLR's can do and how
> compicated they've become. It may not be a completely fair comparision
> so lets throw routers in there in place of Digital SLR's. All the same
> issues Mitch mentioned yet, thankfully, a bit more
Every time I use my Duet, it just works. But there are a thousand variables
which make your setup different than mine.
If you're having problems, you're left with a choice: Work through them via
technical support, the forums, and reporting bugs, or switch to a different
product. I've never used
Haven't had a problem with the new site design here,but i now only use
Firefox 3 (Beta5); it's slick and quick!.
dennis
--
dennis55
dennis55's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=8884
View this thread
Siduhe;299367 Wrote:
> Finally, a bit of this debate that I can comment on! Have been reading
> the many (many) threads on this subject with some interest. Various
> Artist/Compilation behaviour is pretty important to me in one sense,
> because approx 80% of my music are compilation albums (ele
MrSinatra;299361 Wrote:
> can you please explain this a bit more to me...
>
> .
Nothing much to explain. That is how it works right now, and I have no
intenion of getting into the discussion about how it should work.
K
--
slimkid
The sound stage will open up, bass will tighten and the
i'll be more specifc, and i wasn't asking you to explain how it SHOULD
work, but rather, how it does work.
slimkid;299346 Wrote:
> Yap, that was a big surprise for me too. There are threee discrete
> states here, COMP=0, COMP=1 and no COMP at all.
>
>
>
> In more interesting example, Ray Char
Phil Leigh;299354 Wrote:
>
> Anyway, the point is that there are just too many variables in the mix
> for this to be prime time mass-market fodder.
> It's interesting to see where the late-entrant mainstream (?)
> manufacturers are going with this:
>
> 1) they've pretty much abandoned wi-fi...t
MrSinatra;299361 Wrote:
>
> so i think we both understand that "Compilation=1" is the user telling
> SC7 that it must consider the album to be a compilation.
>
> why then, would "Compilation=0" and having no comp tag at all, not be
> considered the same thing?
>
Compilation = 1 -> Compilation
Mitch Harding;299401 Wrote:
> My point with the cameras was not that they are not complex, but that
> the hardware, firmware, and software are all made by the same company.
> The number of variables they need to control for are significantly
> smaller.
Talking about digital cameras is very approp
Thanks for the tip. What's your suggestion for security software?
--
rickcindi
rickcindi's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=14373
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=47
erland;299412 Wrote:
> If you don't trust that the developers ake s the right choice, learn
> perl and provide a patch.
>
Can you recommend a good manual Erland?
;-|
If human friendly design depended solely upon developers/coders we'd
all be sunk
erland;299412 Wrote:
>
> The tagging programs a
This stuff can easily be used as a near-bulletproof "appliance" to play
music:
Buy the "Classic" Squeezebox 3 instead of the Duet
Run a dedicated server with lots of RAM
Run a stable version of the software - 5.4.1 or 6.2.2 are good choices
All connections wired
This works brilliantly for "just
radish;299411 Wrote:
> I'm curious - which "mainstream" manufacturers are you talking about
> here? I'd be willing to bet there aren't many companies larger or more
> mainstream than Logitech making such devices. The only biggie I can
> think of is MS, and their model with WMS is actually surpris
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