EN 600065 for audio and video equipment judges
that the creepage between traces on a coated
PCB is non existent.
As you may see, many standards do not have the
same opinion about the subject.
Regards,
Gert Gremmen, (Ing)
ce-test, qualified testing
The creation of a FAR using ferrite tiles works using
a resonant system with ferrite tiles. The resonant frequency
is dependent on the thickness of the tiles. At this frequency
the damping is maximized and approx rising at 6 dB/oct .
Standard tiles resonate at 130-150 Mhz.
Has anyone of you experi
Hi John,
EN 55022:1994 does not speak about DC power supplies. Other
standards do.
Normally the appropriate measurements are done on the AC supply side
af any applied DC-power supply.
The pitfall is that a good RF attenuating in the supply may hide the
conducted emissions from your EUT, while anot
Marine Directive -is- a New Approach directive !
I am not very familiar with this directive, but is is mentioned
in both the table of new approach directives on:
http://europa.eu.int/comm/enterprise/newapproach/standardization/harmstds/re
flist.html
as well as in the explanatory document on New
For Europe only.
One my clients had a similar problem a few years ago.
It was solved by the notified body prescribing
the product to be connected to a dedicated
power group inside the building.
I suggest that you contact your local NB and suggest
a similar solution. After all, not the standard
Currently under vote the prA2:2001 on EN 50130-4
-Immunitytesting to 2000 MHz
-replace ENV 50141:1993 reference by EN 61000-4-6 (no date).
Regards,
Gert Gremmen, (Ing)
ce-test, qualified testing
===
Web presence http://www.cetest.nl
CE-shop http:/
gt;>
>>
>>I read in !emc-pstc that CE-test - Ing. Gert Gremmen - ce-marking and
>>more... wrote (in >t...@cetest.nl>) about 'EN 50141 and EN 61000-4-6', on Sun, 13 Jan 2002:
>>
>>>As a member of the Dutch Committee EMC 2 I emphasize
>>>t
Hi Ken, Group,
As I present courses on EMC in the Netherlands,
I have this demo-box with me. It consists of a welded
rust free steel box with a clamp tightened cover.
The joints have EMC fingers in perfect state.
For miscellaneous experiments 5 6 mm (0.2")
holes are drilled in it.
When I teach t
Sorry Rich,
I support John's statement about the 3 meters separation
distance. After all, you're in control in your own sleeping
room. BTW listening radio in the dark is an enlightening experience.
If it were your neighbour sleeping that close to your lamp
this would have given rise to discussion
let us make the discussion a little bit more to the point:
The discussion about interference caused by unwanted emission of electronic
equipment:
Limits for emission are essentially to protect (radio)receivers. (DOT)
I have never met an equipment lacking immunity of any field strength at any
fre
I suggest you apply self-induction with low
parallel capacity such as ferrites before any
clamping device. Standard varistors do
perform self induction in series with
the clamping part. The source impedance of
the EFT pulse is 50 Ohm. If your
low impedance path to ground is 1 Ohm
inductive still
Hi Muriel , group,
What a filter tries to do is to create a short circuit routing for the EMI
current back to the source. Therefore, filtering just the mains side to
ground will annihilate it's radiation potential (relative to enclosure), but
somewhere else potential will rise. This might very w
Might it be possible that the capacitance increasing when
approaching may lower it's voltage (Q=0.5CV^2)?
I think the decrease is very high for this effect as the internal
cap of a discharger is much larger (over 220 pF) that the tip to grp
capacitance.
Is it defective ???
Regards,
Gert Gremmen,
Hello Jeff,
I suggest that you take the limit /test values from
EN 50082-2 for Industrial equipment, and take the test method
from EN 55024. You will see that the differences are
not that large, and you will feel comfortable having tested to
a more severe level of EN 55024 compatible with the limi
Your equipment will probably need compliance with
the ATEX directive. I do not have much experience with
it but what I know is that equipment (wires/ sensors) above a certain
(very low) power level need to be enclosed securely with an
auto expanding enclosure, enabling a safe release of high
pressu
We have been discussing this topic in NEC1 as the Dutch shadow committee
for CISPR/CENELEC with this standard. The purpose of the clause is to create
a well
defined reproducible situation, and not a worst case situation.
I have always opposed such a scenario, as every EMC engineer knows
cables in
The 80/80 rule for compliance has some more implications then one
might think. If the mean emission level of your products is f.a.
at 100 Mhz on 29 dbuV/m and the standard deviation in your products is 5 dB,
then this implicates that more then 20% of the production is exceeding the
30 dBuV/m limit.
Hi Dough, Group,
I agree that is approach is much more simple to understand,
but most definitions up to now have the problem of defining
A LOT of components as safety critical. The safety critical parts
need much more attention then just specification and name it.
They need to be maintained in br
Dear Mr. Ritenour, Mr. John Woodgate,
I do agree with your statement about
the "humouristic replies" often generated by Mr. Woodgate.
Although I respect his level of professionalism
on the subject (safety, emc), and the appropriate (and fast) way
Mr Woodgate replies to questions on this forum,
i t
Let's give it a try
Safety Critical Components :
Those components that encapsulate into one single component the 2 safety
layers
that are normally used to isolate the operator (and others) from a hazard.
In electrical safety land that's mostly an electrical hazard
Safety Related Component
You are right ???
May I add the following quoted part of an email inquiry we received
today from one "reputable" USA manufacturer I received today in my mail box
:
QUOTE
I apologize for the delay in responding back to you, but my boss is
informing me that we simply have to
Group,
I would like to start another discussion about ITE equipment and
security.
Reports and investigations have shown that ITE equipment
in almost any office is susceptible to transients applied to the
mains network OUTSIDE the building. Using relative small electronic
equipment on the market f
Hello Group
I am currently involved in an R&TTE procedure with
bakom in Switzerland. It is believed that Switzerland
follows the same procedures as the EC as an alternative to it's
own. A standard notification procedure by a NB referring to the R&TTE
directive should be sufficient.
Regards,
Gert
As its only a telecommunications institute !
The R&TTE directive has been adopted by Swiss law since May 1st 2000.
Regards,
Gert Gremmen, (Ing)
ce-test, qualified testing
===
Web presence http://www.cetest.nl
CE-shop http://www.cetest.nl/ce_shop.h
Yes Chris, this is exactly
what the criterium A is about. The manufacturer
should specify the performance of the product during
exposure to radiated (or conducted) RF-interference.
The device should of course not loose 100 % of it's performance though.
This way, ideally, customers are able to cho
Hi Group,
Didn't find much time lastly to contribute, but this topic always
triggers something inside
Do not forget that using such a system only the near field
is found, in the orientation the probe determines.
In general this has not much to do with the actual 3 or 10 meter
emission. By p
We also recommend the use of an NB for many
European countries such as Germany [afraid to be not thorough enough ;<)] ,
Italy [don't understand new approach ;<0], and France [nationalistic reasons
:<(( ].
We at ce-test are no NB, but our test reports are in general accepted by a
our local NB, an op
Hi Richard,
Currently only the GSM and DECT bands are
harmonized. All other frequency allocations require verification with
national frequency
schemes and national notification with the 4 weeks time gap.
Progress information is available at ero.dk
Several ERC reports can be of great help such as
This might not directly answer your question, but
may put some light on why these questions are difficult
to answer in general.
For all cables , the transfer impedance is equal
to the Ohmic resistance of the shield at low frequencies.
At higher frequencies the braiding effect causes due to
the ro
Hi Cyril,
Have you tried reducing the current that comes out of
the clock oscillator with a series-resistor ?
( a small ferrite may help also).
Are you sure the clock line does only route on
earth-plane covered areas on the board ?
To determine if the harmonic comes from clock or other signals y
Your conclusion about the design not having a ground plane is very accurate
!
Before looking to fix this problem look at the closed loop the RF-current is
going to take.
The current is injected in Common Mode on one cable and drained in a
controlled impedance level
by another cable.
This means the
/-/
===
>>-Original Message-
>>From: owner-emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:owner-emc-p...@ieee.org]On Behalf
>>Of CE-test - Ing. Gert Gremmen - ce-marking and more...
>>Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2001 8:09 PM
>>To: Emc
April 5th 2001, EMC directive and R&TTE directive.
As usual available for download from our site
http://www.cetest.nl/ce_shop.nl
Regards,
Gert Gremmen, (Ing)
ce-test, qualified testing
===
Web presence http://www.cetest.nl
CE-shop http://www.ce
Hi Group,
Last week I mentioned the introduction of new
"regulations" for the power limitation of small power supplies.
I looked up the document and can tell you the following:
Currently this regulation exist in the from of a "Code of conduct":
--
The European Commission has prepared a Code of
I took the liberty of informing at the representative of the
Dutch authorities close to one of the members of SLIM about this topic.
It indeed has been part of
discussion last week at SLIM, and as far as the spokesman told
me this issue has been fixed, and the exclusive application of harmonized
There is some confusion over this subject:
1/ the ce marking directive still requires a rep "on-board" so resident on
European soil.
All New Approach directives under ce comply to this.
2/ The notified body (NB) is still required for R&TTE not harmonized
standards
to prescribe a test su
I did not check in this specific standard (yet) but
normally both tests have different criteria for the EUT
passing. The earlier has a B-type criterion and
the latter (more severe has a C-type criterion.
B means: continue to work after the dip (interference during may happen)
C means: continue t
The relevance or earthing.
Thank you Peter for your so obvious conclusions drawn about
the Netherlands Soil. Our lab resides below sea level (approx 4 meters)
and we do have easy grounding possibilities.
What is the purpose of grounding however. There is no relevance
creating a reliable true eart
ce-test is a test house ... We do ce-testing for LVD, EMC and MDD Class 1
and R&TTE equipment.
We can perform tests without client coming over but
We usually appreciate clients coming over.
First because we want to make sure the
equipment under test is operating correctly.
and because the mi
Hi Ken,
Again you should definitely study EN 61000-4-6.
It assumes cable to have an impedance level (CM) of 150 Ohms, a
good average for many situations. It uses a coupling/decoupling network
matched to 150 ohms that feeds RF interference from or to the cable in
common mode.
Many CDN's exist the
iginal Message-
>>From: Ken Javor [mailto:ken.ja...@emccompliance.com]
>>Sent: Saturday, January 13, 2001 6:01 PM
>>To: CE-test - Ing. Gert Gremmen - ce-marking and more...; david heald;
>>tudor, allen
>>Cc: EMC-PCST (E-mail)
>>Subject: Re: Site Correlat
You analysis of the situation is correct but for one thing:
In real life you cannot measure the current from a cable using a
current clamp above approx 300 Mhz for several reasons.
- physical limitations between current clamp size, coil inductance and
parasitic capacitance
make the behavior
What I remember about the last time I used this standard, is that it
if focused on safety of energy distribution systems i.e. control gear having
a power
INPUT and OUTPUT , the latter possibly a motor control or a whole building
or
whatever one may imagine.
Many of the clauses in this standard are
What I missed in this discussion are two essential topics:
- far field conditions are frequency dependent. (lambda/2pi)
+ this means that a 3 meter chamber will tend to respond as bad a 10
meter chamber at 3 x the frequency.
+ ruling the close/far field issue, means that a 3 meter chamber
RE: R&TTE Directive Notification PeriodAs always, people are pragmatic, and
technical reasons, how valid they may be, cannot prevail
over legal ones. Any compliance matter will (-in case of dispute-) finally
be judged by
a legal specialist, not a technical-, and if in the end you manage to
convince
RE: TCF'sSome additional remarks :
A TCF is to be prepared in either case. In the case where a competent body
is involved, the TCF will be co -signed by the CB.
A TCF just is the term for a compliance assessment document to a
specific apparatus, or group of apparatuses.
It describes in full deta
No way Courtland,
Immunity test are not the first priority of governmental officers,
that may have tempted someone to overlook these requirements.
Regards,
Gert Gremmen, (Ing)
ce-test, qualified testing
===
Web presence http://www.cetest.nl
CE-shop
NSA above 1 GHz becomes (technically spoken) less relevant , as it
becomes increasingly easier to calibrate antennas as if they
were used in free space. The short wavelength makes is easy to choose
the antenna-antenna distance very short compared to the height of them.
In this way reflections are
I think, that there is substantial difference in the products that we use
on the glues that affix plastic and paper labels.
We currently experiment with applying "label remover" , a product sold to
remove
paper and plastic labels from furniture.
it bears no specific warning label but the "square
I got the same confirmation from Agilent Netherlands.
I cannot recommend the purchase of Agilent equipment
for harmonics , flicker etc. to regulatory purposes at the moment.
Basically it's the software that becomes obsolete.
I think your 68xx system will be obsolete but for
precompliance purpose
Eric,
I get the point of your story however, taking measures
against surge on signal and telecom lines is definitely
less expensive as fiber solutions. I case of a direct hit, the coupling onto
a cable length of less then 10 meters between equipment and fiber converter
is enough to kill your equi
Most deviations are from the IEC placing itself on a position it has no
right to be
-according to the European Commission-, so some aspects of the IEC are
unacceptable to
the EC -in casu CENELEC- to be used as a harmonized standard. If CENELEC
still wants
the standard, then some modifications ar
/-/
===
>>-Original Message-
>>From: Lou Guerin [mailto:lgue...@littlefeet-inc.com]
>>Sent: Friday, December 15, 2000 6:35 PM
>>To: 'CE-test - Ing. Gert Gremmen - ce-marking and more...';
>>wo...@sensormatic.com; e
: Friday, December 15, 2000 2:25 PM
>>To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
>>Subject: RE: Application of CE Mark
>>
>>
>>
>>It is news to me that placing the CE marking on packaging is forbidden if
>>the directive does not specify the marking? Where did you find th
Hi Praveen,
I would even attenuate that last statement. Officially the application of ce
on boxes is forbidden
so affixing "ce" would be just an invitation to search into the boxes
:<))
I think it should make just no difference to customs if you do or do not
affix the sign, but
as they are
Hi list !!
Today a new list of Harmonized standards including the infamous A14
has been published in the OJ. In spite of any DOP or DOW dates it can
be used for ce compliance matters per TODAY..
Find a direct link to this list in Adobe format on our home page:
http://www.cetest.nl
Regards,
Product Family Standard ApplicabilityHi John and All,
You should definitely use the Generics, unless the product is going to be
included
in the newer system as a system component, after which it is going to be
part
of a sold system in an other product family .
Take f.a. a micro controller in a se
Hello mr. Flanigan,
The one that actually sells the product on the European Market will be held
responsible.
I am not sure if you are USA based, but in that case your REP will get the
headache,
as well as bear all legal (and financial) consequences. Hope for him he has
a decent
contract with you,
No, there is not.
Although there is no apparent reason for a single product
EMC testing IS required, the EMC-directive make no exclusion for one time
apparatuses.
Many manufs however, do not test. Beware however to certify the safety, if
any
accident happens to an emplyee only within sight of your
e problem in Europe from ITE? Based on a survey
>>returned by over 50,000 households in the U.S., there certainly isn't one
>>here. Whatever is being done, it is adequate.
>>
>>Peace!
>>
>>Ghery
>>
>>-Original Message-
>>From:
does not amend this part of the document in its common
>>modifications. As 89/336/EEC does not provide limits of any
>>kind, where am
>>I supposed to see a requirement that servers and mainframe
>>computers (which
>>are, indeed, ITE) must meet the Class B limits?
>
Hi Group,
The type of clause (see below) from EN 55022 about adding notes and
restrictions
to equipment is just the type the European Commission
objects against their use in the EN 55022 standard.
The reason is that the CENELEC was asked to propose limits and
test methods, not to replace politics
be careful Jim,
In Europe one harmonic standard has no power to exclude
the requirements of another harmonic standard that is applicable to the
apparatus.
Especially those of EN 61000-3-2 and 61000-3-3 !!
The target of the EMC-directive is covering all essential EMC requirements:
-Low frequency
Normally it is more easy to pass a harmonic test when connected as a system,
then when tested as several separate apparatuses.
I do not understand your "obvious it failed" statement ...
The total power consumption of a system permits higher limits, and
some peak values of harmonic currents at sp
s our core business /-/
==
-Original Message-
From: owner-emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:owner-emc-p...@ieee.org]On Behalf Of
CE-test - Ing. Gert Gremmen - ce-marking and more...
Sent: Friday, November 10, 2000 12:35 PM
To: Emc-Pstc@Ieee. Org
Subject:
hello Group,
Can anyone point me in the right direction to a standard or
technical report concerning safe voltage limits for farm animals
especially cows.
The beasts will be in touch on a regular basis with a DC voltage
used to charge a fence pulse generator.
I know the cows are being pulsed usin
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