In message <1378784340.50598.yahoomail...@web160404.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>,
dated Mon, 9 Sep 2013, Bill Owsley writes:
Indeed... the protection scheme that passes Safety, causes the system
to 'fail safe' which does not meet the EMC immunity requirements
Plain EMC requirements do not consider f
g which largely ranged between 3 and 6
kV.
Just my thoughts.
T
- Original Message -
From: Kunde, Brian
Sent: 09/06/13 04:56 PM
To:
EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] Spark Gap PCB Layout on AC Mains
Our engineers are working on an AC Mains Distribution PCB. Like most
electronic
he fuse to go open, which
is fine for the Safety guys.
>
> From: "McInturff, Gary"
>To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
>Sent: Monday, September 9, 2013 11:42 AM
>Subject: Re: [PSES] Spark Gap PCB Layout on AC Mains
>
>
>
>
&
is low, only a small amount of
induction
will reduce the surge current substantially.
Regards,
Ing. Gert Gremmen, BSc
Van: Joe Randolph
[mailto:j...@randolph-telecom.com]
Verzonden: Friday, September 06, 2013 11:32 PM
Aan: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Onderwerp: Re: [PSES] Spark Gap PCB Lay
to all.
The Other Brian
From: Anthony Thomson [mailto:ton...@europe.com]
Sent: Monday, September 09, 2013 4:18 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Spark Gap PCB Layout on AC Mains
Hello Brian,
I've employed spark gaps, like you, not because you 'ha
In message
<64D32EE8B9CBDD44963ACB076A5F6ABB0266533F@Mailbox-Tech.lecotech.local>,
dated Mon, 9 Sep 2013, "Kunde, Brian" writes:
What are the safety considerations using gas tubes on the AC mains? Do
you have to fuse them or are they not likely to fail shorted?
Not likely, but in theory any
Hi Brian,
Standard IEC 60950-1 only allows use of MOV or combination MOV + GDT in
primary circuit. No other surge protectors are allowed.
As you mentioned, manufacturers are mostly using T protection (2 MOVs and one
GDT).
Best regards,
Bostjan
On 9. sep. 2013, at 18:00, "Cortland Richmond"
Yet another example that transistors and IC’s were invented to protect fuses
and surge protectors.
Gary
From: Kunde, Brian [mailto:brian_ku...@lecotc.com]
Sent: Monday, September 09, 2013 8:31 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Spark Gap PCB Layout on AC Mains
What are the
[mailto:ton...@europe.com]
Sent: Monday, September 09, 2013 4:18 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Spark Gap PCB Layout on AC Mains
Hello Brian,
I've employed spark gaps, like you, not because you 'have' to but because it
seemed good practice. It involved a contr
Some years ago I was working at in a wireline telecomms equipment
maker. Robust protection was the order of the day; the outside physical
plant was just *waiting* for lightning.
We protected each circuit to a level it could withstand, and worked back
to the line inputs, where (IIRC) we had to
essage -
From: Kunde, Brian
Sent: 09/06/13 04:56 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] Spark Gap PCB Layout on AC Mains
Our engineers are working on an AC Mains Distribution PCB. Like most electronic
devices, we have seen the damage caused by lightning strikes. So we are
inc
bericht-
Van: John Woodgate [mailto:j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk]
Verzonden: Saturday, September 07, 2013 11:35 AM
Aan: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Onderwerp: Re: [PSES] Spark Gap PCB Layout on AC Mains
In message ,
dated Sat, 7 Sep 2013, "ce-test, qualified testing bv - Gert Gremmen"
In message ,
dated Sat, 7 Sep 2013, "ce-test, qualified testing bv - Gert Gremmen"
writes:
Anyway, the primary circuit always need to be build for high surge
currents,
and one should always insert induction to limit surge currents.
As the impedance of the spark gap is low, only a small amo
Onderwerp: Re: [PSES] Spark Gap PCB Layout on AC Mains
Hi Gert:
Do you know of a source for a small, inexpensive gas tube with a rated
breakdown voltage in the range of 6 KV to 10 KV? I don't, but I'd like to know
of a suitable source.
As I noted, conventional gas tubes are typicall
of inductance
to reduce the current. That fits nice with your observations on
high breakdown voltages.
Gert Gremmen
Van: Joe Randolph
[mailto:j...@randolph-telecom.com]
Verzonden: vrijdag 6 september 2013 21:06
Aan: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Onderwerp: Re: [PSES] Spark Gap PCB Layout on AC Ma
Hi Brian:
I think it is a good idea to increase the spacings if you have room
available. The statistical relationship between peak surge voltage
and probability of occurrence strongly favors larger spacings.
Doubling the spacings may reduce the probability of breakdown by a factor
of ten.
Regar
In message , dated Fri, 6
Sep 2013, Doug Powell writes:
Best to simply use a glass or ceramic spark gaps which are inorganic
and cannot produce carbon when arced
You are right: using PCB tracks is to invite tracking! A slot in the
board with electrodes on both sides is better. These were
I'm not a power engineer, but I suspect you'll need something more than
pointed bus bars. A quick search comes up with this:
www.erico.com/public/library/fep/Surge/LT19915.pdf?
Good luck!
Cortland Richmond
On 9/6/2013 1156, Kunde, Brian wrote:
Our engineers are working on an AC Mains Distri
doug...@gmail.com
http://www.linkedin.com/in/dougp01
From: Joe Randolph
Sent: Friday, September 06, 2013 11:34 AM
To: Doug Powell ; EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Spark Gap PCB Layout on AC Mains
Hi Doug:
I think we are in agreement about some of the pitfalls of spark gaps
uct design.
thanks, doug
Douglas E Powell
doug...@gmail.com
http://www.linkedin.com/in/dougp01
From: Joe Randolph
Sent: Friday, September 06, 2013 11:34 AM
To: Doug Powell ; EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Spark Gap PCB Layout on AC Mains
Hi Doug:
I think we are in agreement abo
STC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Onderwerp: Re: [PSES] Spark Gap PCB Layout on AC Mains
Hi Doug:
You mention that there are companies that make air gaps. Are these devices
anything like what I described?
What I have in mind is an inexpensive component about the same physical size
and cost as a gas tube, w
From: Joe RandolphSent: Friday, September 6, 2013 1:05 PMTo: Doug Powell; EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORGSubject: Re: [PSES] Spark Gap PCB Layout on AC Mains
Hi Doug:
You mention that there
PCB gaps (with or without slot) are okay for low-current
discharges. For high-current discharges such as occur
on mains circuits, the current will vaporize the copper
and increase the clearance distance, and thereby increase
the breakdown voltage with each overvoltage event.
Rich
On 9/6/2013
In message
<64D32EE8B9CBDD44963ACB076A5F6ABB02664E67@Mailbox-Tech.lecotech.local>,
dated Fri, 6 Sep 2013, "Kunde, Brian" writes:
I have seen spark-gap lay outs on PC boards on I/O connectors; usually
for ESD protection, but not on AC Mains. Is this a bad bad idea or
something worth doing?
Murphy says it will destroy BOTH boards.
Ed Price
WB6WSN
Chula Vista, CA USA
From: Kunde, Brian [mailto:brian_ku...@lecotc.com]
Sent: Friday, September 06, 2013 10:15 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Spark Gap PCB Layout on AC Mains
The thought is that a really
, Brian; EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Spark Gap PCB Layout on AC Mains
Brian,
I am personally opposed to such an idea. The first time I saw this was circa
1982 on an electronic security system; designed to tie into the public
telephone network. The manufacturer wanted additional
: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Spark Gap PCB Layout on AC Mains
Brian,
I am personally opposed to such an idea. The first time I saw this was circa
1982 on an electronic security system; designed to tie into the public
telephone network. The manufacturer wanted additional
ce carbon when arced
(http://www.globalsources.com/manufacturers/Glass-Switching-Spark-Gap.html).
thanks, doug
Douglas E Powell
doug...@gmail.com
http://www.linkedin.com/in/dougp01
From: Kunde, Brian
Sent: Friday, September 06, 2013 9:56 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] Spa
: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] Spark Gap PCB Layout on AC Mains
Our engineers are working on an AC Mains Distribution PCB. Like most electronic
devices, we have seen the damage caused by lightning strikes. So we are
increasing our creepage and clearance distances as wide as we can
Our engineers are working on an AC Mains Distribution PCB. Like most electronic
devices, we have seen the damage caused by lightning strikes. So we are
increasing our creepage and clearance distances as wide as we can and still
meet other requirements.
But no matter what spacing you design to,
: [PSES] Spark Gap PCB Layout on AC Mains
Our engineers are working on an AC Mains Distribution PCB. Like most electronic
devices, we have seen the damage caused by lightning strikes. So we are
increasing our creepage and clearance distances as wide as we can and still
meet other requirements.
But no
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